SOUTHEND - 3 The new beginning

[Phileas Fogg]

Isn't Luton Airport closer to Newport Pagnell than it is to London?

Just curious why they decided to label it London/Luton rather than Newport Pagnell/Luton!

Beats me why SEN airport don't do an out of hours (Ryanair style) bus service from/to Stratford Stastion with perhaps a stop or two en route.

[blind pew]

Visited southend yesterday - well impressed, pity Stobart wasn't around I the 60s....

[tophat27dt]

I agree that Stobarts have done a great job. In these times, it's brave to invest £100million into anything apart from gold and diamonds, so thumbs up to them. I get fed up with some of the comments on this forum. Always so negative or quick to criticise any good or interesting news. Only Stobart and the airlines know the facts. All of us out here are mere spectators full of guess work. So please, give them some space. The airport's expansion program is not yet completed, and yet look at the passengers figures so far this year. I am sure most will return again.

[davidjohnson6]

Tophat - the problem is that because Joe Public doesn't have immediate and full access to data, those bits of information which can be publicly obtained are the only ones that can be used to from opinions. Show me data in line with expectations and I'll yawn. Show me something surprising and I'm interested.

I agree most here do not have detailed access to commercially sensitive data but the CAA stats combined with comparison of historical fares shown to the public once analysed can yield an awful lot of insight. It would be very unlikely for published data to tell a different story to the private data.

[LTNman]

Just curious why they decided to label it London/Luton rather than Newport Pagnell/Luton!

Now that is a very good question.

Luton could drop the word London from its name as could Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted and just call itself Luton Airport as most people know where it is and dropping the word Luton would not make any difference to its passenger figures.

Maybe what Southend Airport needs is a symbol or photo to be incorporated into its website, adverts and letter headings linking it to its location. Southend pier comes to mind or even a halibut.:}

Luton could use a Mosque complete with minarets but that would not go down well with El-Al.:yuk:

No doubt the folk here could think of many other symbols Luton could use but let’s remember this is the Southend thread so would be off topic.:=

[Expressflight]

tophat27dt

You make a good point when you say "All of us out here are mere spectators full of guesswork." That's obviously 90% true and yet you wouldn't think it from some of the opinions dressed up as facts that appear here. I believe that one of the most vociferous may not even have visited SEN this year.

However, some of us are professionally involved in matters which involve SEN in one way or another and it's often impossible to put the record straight due to commercial and operational confidentiality considerations. One example is that SEN have been criticised for not promoting the OLT Dresden route, yet I know the exact reason for this and it is a perfectly sensible position that they are taking. Before the rumour mill on that goes into overdrive, it has nothing to do with the airline's commercial or operational capabilities or any disagreement between them; it's much more simple than that.

It's always very easy to nit pick and speculate in a negative way and, forgive me for saying this, even easier from a position of ignorance of all the facts.

To end on a positive note, something I'm currently involved with should produce further good news for SEN within the next few months, resulting in an addition to the current activity.

[Barling Magna]

Surely a jellied eel for Southend, and Lorraine Chase (or a Vauxhall Viva) for Luton.....?

[frostbite]

I must agree with the general sentiments expressed by Tophat.

As far as I know, Stobart have not only done what they said they would do, they have also done it when they said they would, and that is to be commended.

[insuindi]

OLT is rumoured to be about to pull capacity from the DRS-SEN route for the winter season.

[FRatSTN]

That Jetisfaction airline cancelled Southend and OLT have already cut the Saarbrucken service and now this and god knows what happened to that little airline from Rotterdam. I think my point is becoming more evident. Southend isn't neccessarily finding it difficult to attract airlines at the moment, but airlines like these smaller carriers (which is the only thing Southend will realistically rely on in the future) are finding it difficult to set up an operation there. At the moment, only the large and well established EasyJet and Aer lingus have successfully built up a sizeable operation so far!

[Aero Mad]

Bear in mind that both Jetisfaction and OLT would have suffered the same difficulties in brand recognition had they flown from any other London airport; it is more a matter of start-up carries facing certain difficulties relating to their embryonic nature rather than the airports they choose to fly from. So I wouldn't blame SEN for their problems - Aer Lingus and easyJet have had an easier time because they are household names; Jetisfaction and OLT Express Germany, with all due respect, are not.

[FRatSTN]

I agree, it's no fault of Southend. I said airlines are attracted to it (which is the job of SEN and have done a good job so far) but haven't really made much success out of it yet (which is more the job of the airline). I think the good Eddie Stobart ownership is a thing to attract airlines but because of the runway length, I don't think you're going to get Ryanair, Monarch or a decent amount holiday charters setting up, just regional or A319/20 aircraft at best. I doubt SEN will be extending it's runway again anytime soon, so it looks like it's going to be mainly these smaller, regional airlines that SEN is going to be dealing with other than further EasyJet growth, which may be problematic for them in the future.

[Expressflight]

FRatSTN

I think that's generally a fair view of the situation.

SEN definitely don't want RYR so that isn't a problem, while the A319/320 and most 737 marques other than the -800 can operate comfortably to the majority of Southern European destinations. That gives some scope for IT charters on the lines of the Germania 737-700 planned for next year, although these types of flights seem to diminish year by year in favour of scheduled operations, e.g. Monarch.

As far as OLT Express Germany is concerned I wouldn't be too concerned one way or the other. In my view they have rather rushed into reinventing themselves and launching numerous new routes with the sole aim of maintaining utilisation on the seven Contact Air F100s that have just joined the fleet. Too little notice at the wrong season of the year, coupled with a German-only website is hardly conducive to a successful launch of a UK route.

There is no chance of the runway ever being further extended so SEN will have to rely upon types similar to the above and newer developments such as the Bombardier C-Series for Lo-Co/IT business. Added to that will be other European regional operators on mainly niche, thinner routes and no doubt some ad hoc charter traffic. If all of that doesn't produce the 2 mppa maximum I should be very surprised. Don't forget we're not talking about another STN or LTN here so the traffic levels can remain fairly modest and still achieve that target.

Obviously the size of the initial easyJet route network took everyone by surprise and has resulted in the new terminal being too small already at peak times, so don't expect too much more expansion of traffic until 2014 when the terminal extension (more than doubling it in size) is operational. There is no way that SEN is going to risk losing its USP of being a rapid transit, user-friendly, simple to use airport in the interim.

[Phileas Fogg]

But, apparently, if the runway were widened SEN could increase the declared distances of the length that already exists.

[Tagron]

The reason the Jetisfaction operation did not take place was nothing to do with SEN or any other individual airport. The would-be airline failed to attract the start up capital it needed even though it had advertised and was taking bookings for its services and consequently has not been heard of since.

That little airline from Rotterdam presumably meaning Europort Express was nothing more than a paper airline, some would even say a fantasy airline. There are numerous such comments in this thread a few months back. It was never a serious prospect for running services to SEN or anywhere else even though its website said so.

OLT Express certainly will have a brand recognition issue in UK. They are essentially a German internal carrier and it looks like their whole customer facing profile is in German. They are in the process of expanding not only in Germany and Austria but also to BUD, CDG, MXP and SEN, so the issue they have to address will apply to France, Hungary and Italy as well as the UK. Right now they seem to have no selling engine in the UK though you can find them through flycom. So initially they are relying on German-originating traffic, and they are starting their UK services in late October. Form your own conclusions.

SEN will not be extending its runway any time at all. There are overriding locational and legislative reasons for this. It is optimised for the A319 and although larger aircraft will be able to use it they will be subject to payload/range restrictions which may not be attractive. I think everyone is well enough aware of this situation, certainly Stobarts when they embarked upon the redevelopment..

Finally, FratSTN, in one post. you state EasyJet and Aer lingus have successfully built up a sizeable operation then in the next you claim airlines are attracted to it but haven't really made much success out of it yet .

Which statement is correct and what is your factual basis for making these observations ?

[Expressflight]

The OLT Express Germany DRS-SEN route is bookable on expedia and ebookers websites, which is progress of a sort.

[LTNman]

But, apparently, if the runway were widened SEN could increase the declared distances of the length that already exists.

Why does width affect length? That railway line is already in spitting distance of the runway.

Talking about width, this is from the airports own website

The runway may potentially be considered “narrow” for use by certain larger Code C aircraft (e.g. A319 etc.,) – check with the aircraft flight manual as necessary.

Might it be the case that some airlines with code C aircraft would not allow diversions into Southend due to its non standard runway width?


No one can deny Southend has a very bright future. I see its future as maybe a London City overspill airport attracting the 50-100 seat aircraft market with airlines that either can’t get the slots they want or don’t want to pay London City fees. Heathrow and now Gatwick are also turning their backs on the smaller aircraft so it is key that Southend targets this market.

I think Stobart was as surprised as everyone else that Easyjet based some aircraft there but Stobart needs to diversify with a selection of airlines or it will end up like Stansted with Ryanair holding all the cards.

[FRatSTN]

@Tagron

Sorry that does seem quite bad wording. I'm basically saying that EasyJet and Aer Lingus have been the only two carriers so far to successfully build a sizeable operation, probably because they are more well known brands and bigger in size than these smaller/regional airlines that not many people know of like OLT.

Then what I mean is that it's the smaller, less recognised airlines like OLT who find it hard to build up successful operation, not airlines in general.

Although this may be no/very little fault of SEN, which I believe to be the case, it might be an issue for SEN in the future since it may lose traffic for reasons beyond their control since we've established that Ryanair and Monarch flights etc. are not going to happen and it's instead going to be relying on these smaller airlines who are finding it harder to set up.

[CabinCrewe]

SEN is no LCY overspill. Tell that to the Canary Warf lot....

[SS4 81]

Just curious can anyone tell me if Thomson are going to use Sen next year as I have tried to book it a few time's and no joy, Thomson say it's not going to happen. Unless they just want my money so I book elsewhere i.e LGW :ugh:

[Tagron]

LTNman

The relationship between runway length and declared distance may not be obvious because it is not one of physical dimensions. It is legislative, or, one might even say, bureaucratic.

SEN is Code 3C status by virtue of its less than standard runway width. This brings in the other requirements of a Code 3C airport, and amongst these is a maximum TODA of 1799m. The total paved runway surface at SEN is 1991m so one would expect the "real" TODA to be something in this region (unless of course there are obstacles outside the airfield boundary that cause it to be reduced - a close evaluation of the airfield data would be needed).

I believe that national authorities have the authority to grant a 10% increase though I seem to recall a discussion on pprune a couple of years ago where it was suggested the UK CAA are unwilling to permit such alleviations. As a point of interest the original quoted distance of the paved surface was 1979m, which is exactly 1799m plus 10%.

As regards the caution on the airport website, I suspect it is no more than the airport covering itself. I find it hard to believe any code C aircraft would have a problem at SEN. Remember that it has been used for years for maintenance purposes by A321, 738 and 757, the latter being Code D.

[LTNman]

The total paved runway surface at SEN is 1991m so one would expect the "real" TODA to be something in this region (unless of course there are obstacles outside the airfield boundary that cause it to be reduced -

You mean something like this

http://imageshack.us/a/img27/4413/southend.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/southend.png/)

http://imageshack.us/a/img829/2779/southend2.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/southend2.png/)

[Aero Mad]

My idea of a fun train ride would be going passed at that distance the rear end of an A319 holding full throttle on the brakes ;)

Maybe I wouldn't be saying that after the derailment

[Phileas Fogg]

PainInDeArse,

When I went to school a runway length of 1,856m equated to some 6,089ft which, by just my approximate estimation, is more, not less, than 6,000ft!

[Expressflight]

What did I say yesterday about opinions being dressed up as facts?

PitR's (quite)

If you took the time to look at the Type A and ICAO Aerodrome Charts you would see that the 24 threshold lies some 900' from the railwayline, so you're estimation is only out by a factor of eight. Equally, on 06 the ASDA stops at the 24 threshold so there is a distance of 800' of pavement beyond that. The runway length of 6,000' itself has no greater safety implications than does, say, that at LTN because at any airfield there will be ops which require the full available length, whether it be 5,000' or 10,000', because of larger aircraft being operated from the longer runways. What you are describing as 'runway' is in fact the end of the paved RESA, which few airfileds have (it usually being grass), and your first paragraph is utter rubbish.

The other airfield operational notes you quote are correct and everyone knows about the church and its infringement of the runway strip. Can you quote me any airline that, having carried out its safety assessment for SEN, has declined to operate there? I understand that Monarch, for example, have carried out detailed studies for SEN for both ops and diversions and found it commercially viable for the A320 to Mediterranean destinations

The width of taxiway C has no implications for operational safety and is I believe to be widened in due course. A Control Zone has been applied for, the fact being that you cannot apply until you can demonstrate that the volume and mix of traffic merits one.

Regarding your suggestion that SEN was considered a "legacy airport" by the CAA, that is not correct. Had they not extended the runway that may have been the case but doing so meant that a completely new safety case had to be presented and that was very thoroughly examined by the CAA before being approved. Now if you were talking about LTN having a very short RESA (only the ICAO minimum) with steeply sloping land beyond it, then that is a case of "legacy airport" status prevailing as no such arrangement would be likely to be allowed today for an extended runway. I assume you are not also suggesting that LTN ".... is a marginal airport when it comes to safety"?

I'm off on holiday today to forget about all things aviation for a while so happy posting to you all. When I get back I look forward to working with the next operator who has serious plans for SEN.

[Pain in the R's]

When I went to school a runway length of 1,856m equated to some 6,089ftYes indeed but the take off run availible is only 5,705ft

[Pain in the R's]

Expressflight talks about Luton. Seems to me that airport has quite a few more feet of grass at the end of the runway regardless of the RESA figure.

Now if you were talking about LTN having a very short RESA (only the ICAO minimum)http://imageshack.us/a/img801/8411/runwayz.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/runwayz.png/)

Didn't an excecutive jet come off the end of Luton's 7,086ft runway a couple of years ago? Wouldn't have been a problem at Stansted but would have been bad news if it had landed at Southend and hit the railway.

[Phileas Fogg]

PainInDeArse,

Which, just as an example, is longer than the length and TORA at Southampton, for an aircraft to land short or go off the end and hit one of the circa eight trains per hour that pass by SEN would have to be one hell of a shot but for an aircraft to land short or go off the end at SOU, it wouldn't be one hell of a shot at all to hit just some of the hundreds of vehicles per minute that pass by the end of the runway on the M27 motorway!

And there is a track record of airliner(s) on motorway(s) in UK ... a BD B737-400 @ EMA springs to mind.

So why are you singling out SEN ... did they turn you down for a job or similar?

[Expressflight]

Take a look at the Type A chart for LTN and you'll see exactly what I mean.

Note that I'm not suggesting that LTN is unsafe, only that it does have hazards at the end of its runway as do many others such as LCY and SOU to name but two. Generous length Stopways and RESAs, such as now exist at SEN, help mitigate the consequences of any undershoot or overrun. If all airfields could have 2,000' of flat grassland each end of their runways that would obviously be ideal, but they haven't so don't single out SEN in that respect as it is now considerably better than many.

People with an 'agenda' often make criticisms of aspects which don't stand up to examination and this is a case in point.

[Tagron]

PitR

There can hardly have been a clearer illustration of the point made by expressflight yesterday than your recent posting. Couched in the language it was, your post #1024 was not just inaccurate, it was downright irresponsible.

Surely we are all aware that these forums are open to public scrutiny and that it is not unknown for lazy journalists to make use of pprune in the mistaken belief that all people who post on here must be aviation experts.

And as your post #1027 confirms , you just don't get it, do you ?

I hope the mods are taking note. Meanwhile, the "ignore" button is a useful facility and I commend its use to all those who are fed up with the trashing of this thread by trolls.

[Ernest Lanc's]

Well SEN are a similer runway length to BLK. Which can handle 737s. 757s and 737/800...Not to forget the A320 I flew to Malaga in with Monarch from BLK.(full).

[davidjohnson6]

OLT is rumoured to be about to pull capacity from the DRS-SEN route for the winter season.
insuindi - do you have any public source indicating OLT would cut capacity from Southend to Dresden, or a hint as to the source of the rumour you've heard ? Taking current published fares as a proxy for levels of consumer interest seems to indicate demand is not great on Tues, Wed and Thurs and between early Nov and Xmas but then this is a hard period for many leisure routes in Europe requiring strong price promotion to keep up the load factor.

[adfly]

The 757 may be Code D but it could take off from my garden! Lets put it this way: it was able to fly SOU-TFS direct with little or no restrictions when almost all other Code C aircraft struggle to make it past AGP/FAO! And SOU's declared runway distance is 1723m vs 1799m @ SEN.

[Pain in the R's]

your post #1024 was not just inaccurate, it was downright irresponsible.

Sorry I didn't mean to cause offence

[insuindi]

davidjohnson - yes, in the meantime the route reduction has been picked up by some German media, even though the flights currently remain bookable, as you observed as well...

aero.de - Luftfahrt-Nachrichten und -Community (http://www.aero.de/news-16021/OLT-Express-reduziert-Fluege-von-Dresden-nach-London-und-Budapest.html)

OLT currently plans to do the full planned schedule from April onwards.

[Jamie2k9]

Have heard a little rumour that there could be a few changes by EI regional at SEN in 2013. I not going to say more as it could be just speculation and may not happen.

[davidjohnson6]

insuindi - you're absolutely right. OLT website has been updated.

Flights on Southend-Dresden now on sale only during school holiday periods. Southend-Saarbrucken is suspended from early Nov to late March.

Slightly disappointing that when the Saturday SEN-SCN flights resume in March they depart at 0715 given that the first train from London arrives at 0632 making train connections extremely tight and desk check-in / luggage drop-off impossible unless either a) you spend the night near Southend or b) Stobart arrange some means of early morning London-Southend transport between now and spring.

While Essex-originating traffic may be able to substantially support Easyjet flights to the Med, I imagine that any leisure-focussed Saarbrucken traffic will be spread across London rather than just Essex, with people in Saarbrucken wanting to visit London rather than Essex. This may encourage leisure travellers to fly between Heathrow/Gatwick and Luxembourg with associated 1h15 bus ride to Saarbrucken instead.

At the risk of thread drift, OLT's routes to Budapest, Milan and Paris are also going school-holidays-only, which suggests rather more time on the ground for aircraft than might perhaps have been previously supposed. Perhaps less than ideal, but other LCCs seem quite happy to do offpeak groundings and it's better not to fly if ticket revenues won't cover fuel+landing fees.

[FRatSTN]

Nobody get their hopes high about OLT flights from Southend.

That is because OLT now seem to be flying from Luton. Well, according to the English translation!:confused:

Check their website. On the Schedule page, with the website in German, it says London-Southend (SEN) however if you can translate the page into English, it misteriously changes to London-Luton (LTN)!!!

[vulcanised]

They do seem to be the aviation equivalent of the Keystone Cops !

Perhaps it will be no loss to SEN if they do go elswhere.

[LTNman]

That is because OLT now seem to be flying from Luton

That's good news but whether it is Southend or Luton I can't see the service lasting long. In fact I can't see it even starting so it will be no loss to Southend.

[fatmed]

Just looked at OLT website. Still says just London or London SEN on the pages and booking section. Where was you looking at please.

[FRatSTN]

The OLT website is in German, when you get to the main website homepage, there should be a bar which appears at the top with a "Translate" option on it (there is on my system anyway). It translates the page into English. Once you've done that, go on the "Schedules" link and it now says London-Luton (LTN)

[davidjohnson6]

FRatSTN - sounds like some 3rd party piece of software installed on your PC is trying to translate OLT's web page into English for you, but is making a bit of a mess of the job and translating some words incorrectly.

[Ernest Lanc's]

As far as I can tell..The OLT website is in German...But you don't need a translater to see "London (Southend)".

[vulcanised]

Wonder if OLT are going to show up tomorrow?

If they do, the question is where?

[davidjohnson6]

vulcanised - don't be that harsh on OLT. Yes, they've cancelled a lot of their planned flights, but they've done in in advance as per EU261 and given everyone notice rather than letting people be stranded at airports. Apart from something playing up on FRatSTN's PC, I haven't seen anything else for a long time to indicate that they will fly to Luton - everything seems to point to Southend
Yes, I agree the lack of both a website in English / French / Italian / Hungarian and the lack of a marketing campaign outside Germany is not doing them any favours, but that hurts nobody apart from the airline itself.

Perhaps it's now time to let OLT just get on with the flying and judge them on things like flight completions, flight delays, baggage handling, in flight service, etc ?

[tophat27dt]

I can see their flights on radar (in Luxembourg) operating pretty well from Saarbrucken during last week to Vienna, Munich and Hamburg. There are no planned to flights to any of the London airports until next Easter, and as far as I can see it will be SEN, although negotations must continue between airline and airport managements. When Expressflight comes back from his holiday, maybe he will tell us more of what he knows. To start a Saarbrucken-London service this time of the year I believe would have lost them a lot of money, but once set up and promoted properly with a good times schedule, it can work.

[Expressflight]

Just returned home this afternoon.

My thoughts on OLT are that that no one outside their organisation knows exactly what their future plans are; possibly they are still quite fluid. As I understand it the DRS-SEN will operate daily from tomorrow until the end of the German holiday period on 4 November, and then be suspended until March 2013 and recommence after that. The SCN-SEN will operate from 2O November, also just for the duration of the German holiday period and will then be suspended with a view to recommencing in March 2013.

It's worth noting that a number of the other previously announced new routes within Europe are also being put back until next March. It is perhaps a combination of seasonal factors, lack of adequate marketing time and a poor website for anything other than the German market that has caused this rather unfortunate rethink. The original plans seemed to have been born out of a desire to keep the Contact Air F100s busy; perhaps they now see grounding some over Winter as the more prudent commecial decision.

Edit: I see that DRS-SEN will also operate over the Christmas period according to their website.

[Expressflight]

I see this morning that although the SEN arrivals board shows the DRS flight, the DRS departures board shows it as 'cancelled'. Don't know what that's all about, but an interesting way to launch a new route!

[SENChris]

Now showing as cancelled on the SEN website too. Utterly bizarre.

[tophat27dt]

I am still convinced that OLT will not be flying into the UK before next Easter.
Today....did passengers arrive to check in, or had they already been notified and reimbursed? I am mystified by Stobart's silence...although normally if they have not announced the new routes as definite, then they wont happen. OLT is operating normally from Dresden and Saarbrucken to other cities today.

[davidjohnson6]

The relevant person at Southend airport explained that they had told OLT that Southend would happily publicly endorse OLT in the UK press if OLT had an English language option on their website. Southend was particularly concerned that sending people in the UK to a website without an English language option would leave them open to abuse and accusations in the press. Since OLT still do not have an English feature on their website, any enquiries to Southend about OLT are met with the response 'We are talking to OLT'.

[Captain_Caveman]

OLT = Shambles.....

What kind of professionally run airline sets up routes that they have no possibility of operating on the dates that they advertise. It is all very well and good saying that the airline complies with EU261 where the passenger gets nothing but a refund if their flight is cancelled with more than 2 weeks notice. This leaves the would be passengers to fork out more money on another route which has gone up in price since booking with OLT. I don't think those people will be back to book with OLT again in a hurry.

What kind of an airline doesn't advertise the route or prepare an English language website in advance of routes to the uk but still takes people's money for a route that has never been confirmed with the airport operator and then cancels the inaugural flights which were never going to operate anyway.

Shambles and certainly not what Southend needs...

[maliyahsdad2]

September figures out.

75132 passengers last month.
452342 rolling 12 months.

[Ernest Lanc's]

Shambles and certainly not what Southend needs...

I would forget OLT..It was possible to book, so god knows what the fuss was about and why flights are cancelled.

SEN: are better of without them.

We had at BLK Danish Air Transport (DAT connecting BLK with Northern France, although billed Paris.

Botton like their website BLK to Albert Picardie Airport never really happened...We could go on the website, maybe find a one way booking.At least the website was in English.

I think maybe SEN might have put their pax in the picture, especially if tickets had been booked.

[vulcanised]

What makes you think SEN knew of the outcome?

[Ernest Lanc's]

What makes you think SEN knew of the outcome?

Outcome of what?.

I think the management at SEN would know who is and who is not flying out of their airport at least a few days in advance.

The future if OLT at SEN is to obscure as to be believed.

Look what davidjohnson6 has to say:-


The relevant person at Southend airport explained that they had told OLT that Southend would happily publicly endorse OLT in the UK press if OLT had an English language option on their website. Southend was particularly concerned that sending people in the UK to a website without an English language option would leave them open to abuse and accusations in the press. Since OLT still do not have an English feature on their website, any enquiries to Southend about OLT are met with the response 'We are talking to OLT'.

This vulcanised is a shambles by all concerned.
Wonder if OLT are going to show up tomorrow?

If they do, the question is where?
You make the point eloquently.

[davidjohnson6]

Ernest - perhaps I should clarify what I wrote earlier today...

Southend's expectation for OLT is:
Flights from Dresden from 15 Oct to 03 Nov, a short period around Xmas, and then from 23 March onwards
Flights from Saarbrucken from 20 Oct to 03 Nov and again from 23 March onwards

Southend do not want to publicise an airline which does not have an English language website. At a first enquiry from a member of the public, Southend will give a non-committal "We are in talks with OLT but expect it highly likely that flights will take place". If you push the right person at Southend hard enough, they will admit that OLT flights are expected to take place.

Southend's biggest concern is that they publicise flights in the UK English-language press on an airline without an English language website, someone who can't speak German tries to make a booking and makes a complete screw-up, and then said idiot complains to the Daily Mail about how terrible Southend airport are for making that person lose lots of money on their credit card.

And yes, Southend admit they would rather not have to play this silly game, preferring instead to give a single consistent straight answer on the matter, without having to worry about the different interests of their airline customer and the Daily Mail.

I have a booking with OLT from Southend later this month, in less than 2 weeks time. At school I learnt to speak some German, so can cope with a German-language website. I have not heard anything by phone or email from either Southend or OLT to say the flight will be delayed or cancelled. If OLT cancel my flight, I shall not be happy and will make a complaint under EU261, requesting refund + compensation.

Looking at the Dresden arrival/departure board, my best guess is that either loads between Dresden and Southend+Vienna were very low and/or that a F100 went tech and a Saab was used as a replacement

Edit - Just noticed that OLT seem to have pulled their Dresden-Southend-Dresden flights from sale for Tues 16th, Wed 17th and Tues 30th October.
As a (not very nice) thought - there's a flight from Southend to Dresden still on sale for Thurs 18th October for 49 euros - anyone fancy buying a seat, in the hope that it's cancelled and then claiming a refund + 250 euros compensation ? :E You'll have to spend the time chasing OLT through a complaints process though...

[Ernest Lanc's]

davidjohnson6


Edit - Just noticed that OLT seem to have pulled their Dresden-Southend-Dresden flights from sale for Tues 16th, Wed 17th and Tues 30th October.

Thank's for your reply - I was answering when I spotted your edit..Which makes my reply irrelevant.

[LTNman]

Today....did passengers arrive to check in, or had they already been notified and reimbursed?

I would have thought that there were no passengers booked on the first Southend departure. The Germans need to arrive first before they return home.

[Ernest Lanc's]

I would have thought that there were no passengers booked on the first Southend departure. The Germans need to arrive first before they return home.

Depends on how many Germans where on the flight?...The booking engine would have sorted that.

[LTNman]

You have lost me there. Would have thought all passengers would be German based seeing that no one in the UK apart from ppruners would know about the service.

As they can't do a day return where would the first days passengers come from?

[tophat27dt]

I don't understand your question. It would be a vicious circle. Unless the airline operates inbound to London flights with Germans, how can it ever expect to fly those same Germans back to Germany?

[LTNman]

Yes but not on day one. The Germans would need to spend at least one night in the UK before returning home. I can't see any English being booked on the service. Anyway there are no flights so there are no passengers using the service.

[davidjohnson6]

Out of interest - did either Stobart or OLT order a cake at Southend airport for today's intended route launch ? If OLT are not going to show up before Thursday instead of today, then the cake is at risk of going off so would have to be eaten. Question is - who will be doing the eating ?

[Aero Mad]

Was that a call for volunteers?

I will, but don't tell the gym people

:ok:

[Expressflight]

I really do hope we're not getting into another slanging match gentlemen.

I cannot reveal all I know for reasons of confidentiality, but the SEN management bear absolutely no blame for this shambles. They fully expected the flight to operate this morning and received no prior notification whatever that it wouldn't. The first they knew about it was when the flight plan was cancelled soon after it had been received by ATC this morning. They made efforts today to find out if any pax were booked on the SEN-DRS so that they could assist them when they arrived to check in.

davidjohnson6's observations as to the reasons for SEN not promoting the service are basically correct and, as it turns out, this has proven a wise move on their part.

Edit: No, they was no cake.


OLT's future is surely likely to be in serious trouble if this is a reflection of their operational philosophy and it is certainly not the way to run any airline worthy of the name. In view of the experience of the people behind the 'new' OLT Express Germany I am extremely surprised and disappointed in feeling the need to say that.

[LTNman]

I really do hope we're not getting into another slanging match gentlemen.


No one is in a slanging match, just a debate about nothing really:ok:

So did other London airports reject this airlines business plan or was Southend the first and only choice for OTL? Guess we will never know. For the type of aircraft used Southend is the ideal airport.

[davidjohnson6]

Not just ppruners who are surprised....
In German - Wirtschaft: OLT streicht geplanten Erstflug von Dresden nach London - Nachrichten Newsticker - News3 (DAPD) - DIE WELT (http://www.welt.de/newsticker/news3/article109851279/OLT-streicht-geplanten-Erstflug-von-Dresden-nach-London.html)
With Google Translate - Google Translate (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fnewsticker%2Fnews3%2Farticle109 851279%2FOLT-streicht-geplanten-Erstflug-von-Dresden-nach-London.html)

Edit - Dresden airport website confirms London flight on Tues 16th October is cancelled

[Ernest Lanc's]

LTNman

You have lost me there. Would have thought all passengers would be German based seeing that no one in the UK apart from ppruners would know about the service.

As they can't do a day return where would the first days passengers come from?


My point being..By your reckoning...If Germans are returning, thus we can't book..Then it's going to be a vicious circle.

I see your point to a degree...What if others that Germans and ppruners knew about the route..Then by your reckoning, when would there be room for us on the a/c?...

[tophat27dt]

In the city of Saarbrucken, there are dozens of big posters on billboards, and even bus stop shelters advertising their flights to Vienna, Munchen and Hamburg....not any for London.....so when did they decide not to operate the SEN route? I agree the blame is on the airline...it's disgraceful..and of course disappointing..whether you are a German pax, UK pax, aircraft spotter at SEN......something is not right...and Stobarts know it...but they have not been forthcoming.....even if they said last week, do not book your flights because there is no agreement set up yet...it would have been ok..........lets drop the subject now and move on.....

[Expressflight]

tophat27dt

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong regarding Stobart/SEN's not having a commercial agreement in place with OLT Express Germany. As I said earlier, they were expecting the DRS flights to commence today and received no indication that this was not going to happen. If you had tried booking DRS-SEN for the 15 November yesterday on the OLT website you could have done so. This cancellation of today's and the next two days flights appears to have been a very last minute commercial decision by OLT without any reference whatever to SEN.

Stobart/SEN certainly aren't perfect in every way, but on this they do not deserve any criticism and I really don't see how they could have acted differently.

As far as SCN-SEN is concerned, are you saying that this route will not operate from 20 October through until early November? It is certainly bookable on the OLT website as I write. At the moment it seems as if they plan to operate these flights, although on past performance it certainly cannot be guaranteed.

[Ernest Lanc's]

Expressflight

You must admit, this is messy. SEN has enjoyed a good year and has built
a good reputation.

This cancellation of today's and the next two days flights appears to have been a very last minute commercial decision by OLT without any reference whatever to SEN.




It would seem then that OLT Express Germany are not reliable as far as SEN is concerned.

How many more cancellations before SEN give OLT Express - The order of the boot.

Not worth the bother...Even if they do turn up on Thursday, for how long?.

OLT Express has nothing to lose, SEN has it's reputation on the line if the pax are messed about.

The very fact they OLT did not communicate with SEN, should be enough for SEN to close the soor on them.

[Captain_Caveman]

Expressflight mentions that the airport made efforts today to find out how many passengers were booked on the cancelled flight....

Surely shouldn't they know that already??? After all the airport is the only handling agent so the staff should be trained on the airlines policies and the reservation system. If not then they would have a hotline to the OLT operations centre / reservations team.

The staff at SEN should be trained on the airlines operating procedures before a plane just turns up on a route. Even if they were flying A319's or ATR's like the exsisting airlines, they would still require different airline specific operating procedures. OLT are supposedly operating F100's or saabs both of which are new types to SEN. None of the staff have recieved any training yet !!!!

To say they didn't know right up until the last minute if there would be any passengers travelling either way is laughable.

If people on here believe that an airline just turns up on the day without a contract with an airport/handling agents (the same entity in this case) s living in cloud cuckoo land, of course SEN management knew that the airline would not arrive on Monday....

[LTNman]

OLT Express has nothing to lose, SEN has it's reputation on the line if the pax are messed about.

Think you have that the wrong way around. When services are cancelled I have never seen passengers blaming the airport unless it is due to snow, ice or fog so I can't see what Southend has to worry about.

So much for German efficiency.

[Expressflight]

Cavemen

I'm sorry if my use of wording could have been clearer regarding outbound pax. The situation was that I spoke to someone senior at SEN at around 0815, which I think was shortly after the flight plan was cancelled. I mentioned confidentially considerations earlier so I'm not going into details of the exchange between us.

At that time they had heard nothing whatever from OLT, and I feel I must stress this as some people seem to be assuming they knew about the cancellation in advance, although quite why they assume this I cannot fathom. Having this sprung upon them they wanted to ensure that any pax who might arrive at check-in who had not been notified by OLT of the cancellation could be assisted. Obviously in the meantime they were contacting OLT to find out what was going on in order to pass this on to those pax, if any. I hope that makes things a little clearer.

The above has nothing to do with normal procedures and communications between airline and its handling agent, all of which I'm obviously familiar with.

I hope the above clarifies things and also demonstrates that your final comment is way off the mark, much as that might disappoint you.

[HZ123]

Let us hope they recharge OLT for the services that were not used.

[insuindi]

Just as a side note: London & area have a huge German population, i.e. people who would commence their journey from a London airport to Germany.

[Ernest Lanc's]

Just as a side note: London & area have a huge German population, i.e. people who would commence their journey from a London airport to Germany.

By that logic and the logic of LNTman - Every flight would be full and more.

Yes but not on day one. The Germans would need to spend at least one night in the UK before returning home. I can't see any English being booked on the service. Anyway there are no flights so there are no passengers using the service.

It would need a fleets of OLT's, to service, just the Germans from Germany and Germans from England.
In fact an a/c has not landed as yet. so it's all speculation.

[insuindi]

@Ernest Lanc - My statement merily means that there is an ethnic market for origin at London airports, including a German one.
Not sure how you discover the logic that you have (full flights and more SEN-DRS) from my statement.

[EI-BUD]

The CAA reflected the following Stats for September for Southend, for those interested, I don't think this has been posted above:

Domestics
Belfast 9873
Jersey 4478

International
Amsterdam 10530
Alicante 8032
Barcelona 7680
Palma 4818
Malaga 8463
Faro 9867
Waterford 2695
Dublin 4425
Ibiza 3637
Cologne 50
Erfurt 288

Total 74,863
Annualised 898,032

[davidjohnson6]

Anyone able to explain the reason for a (presumably charter) flight to/from Erfurt ? The only reason I can guess is some kind of bus tour / river cruise package

[tws123]

This was a special charter for Siemens - most likely something to do with the opening of the Siemens Development Centre in London Docklands as it was around that time period.

[Ernest Lanc's]

insuindi

My statement merily means that there is an ethnic market for origin at London airports, including a German one.



First I was not being critical..Your post suggested a little more than what you have posted above.

London & area have a huge German population, i.e. people who would commence their journey from a London airport to Germany.

Having said that..You did not mention SEN specifically, I seem to have got you wrong.
However the general discussion was the OLT flights from SEN, so an easy mistake to make for which i apologise.

[insuindi]

@ Ernest - no probs.:ok:

May I present/introduce: OLT Express in ENGLISH! OLT Express - every tariff can be booked online (http://oltexpress.partners.de/en)

Let's hope this English version will still be required (if they continue shrinking their flights to SEN at the pace they currently are...)

[davidjohnson6]

insuindi - OLT took their time didn't they ? Slightly disappointing that if you try to check-in online, the page asking for a booking number is in German, but I suppose it's still a big improvement on yesterday's website

Dresden airport website confirms that Wednesday's DRS-SEN-DRS flights are cancelled

[SENChris]

Schedule information confirmed in English here (http://oltexpress.partners.de/en/aktuelles/special-offers/Last_chance_to_get_to_London_en)for both Saarbrücken and Dresden. The translation is still a little wonky and with a typo or two which doesn't exactly inspire confidence, nor does the total lack of marketing and very short dates of operation before the end of the year :confused:

[Ernest Lanc's]

Well I don't get that website SENChris.

It said London, not London Southend.

Then you click for October, and a plot of prices appear.

I could not click a day, and when I click i think, show flights...I got a warning, pick a flight.

The site for me at least, is not working.

[vulcanised]

I found a brief mention of SEN on the site, but that soon got replaced by London.

If I were Stobart management I think I would suggest OLT play elsewhere.

[Ernest Lanc's]

I tried the link insuindi provided ...I was able to click dates this time, but the drop down still says London..That to people not on these forums, are going to be confused.

[tophat27dt]

I tested the website with OLT now...and under flight schedule it does confirm London-SEN. The dates I asked for where SEN-DRS Oct 20, and return 25th.
All okay but.....will the flights be cancelled at very short notice again?

[insuindi]

Skyscanner.net search now returns a number of booking sites that have the OLT content - EDIT: apparently not due to GDS link but due to screensraper site scripts. But in any case,if OLT still exists in spring, then at least people don't need to first find their website to get on a plane.

[photoman27]

OLT have filed a flight plan again today for DAFKB FK100 from Dresden and so far have not cancelled it so it may actually get here this time, we shall see!!.

[Expressflight]

It departed DRS at 0851Z bound for SEN.

[Red Four]

Just over Rotterdam now....

[Falcon666]

This really is no way to be running an airline.
Feel a bit sorry for SEN with all this.
Wondering just how many pax are on it and on the return?
I am sure somebody will be kind enough to post them!

[maliyahsdad2]

Just landed btw.

[tophat27dt]

I too would be interested to know the loads for today. Landed/on chocks exactly on schedule, so at least a good "start"........I wonder if Stobarts remembered to invited the Evening Echo and other press over there......they still haven't confirmed the route(s) and no local publicity (I assume).

[photoman27]

OLT Express had 8 pax in & 9 pax out today

[davidjohnson6]

tophat - seems unlikely that media publicity will generate much additional traffic between now and 3rd November.
Dresden route around Xmas operates from 20 Dec to 6 Jan, so very leisure centric. Dresden in January is cold - unlikely to see many Brits wanting to go there unless VFR in which case, family and relatives in Dresden are probably aware of the route.

Media will give Southend only one chance to publicise these 2 new routes. Perhaps best to save this until early January, so that
- the launch looks credible
- OLT have had a chance based on experience with very short operating periods in late October + Xmas to decide whether they really do want to operate out of Southend from March 2013 onwards.

[tophat27dt]

I agree with davidjohnson6........and of course wish them luck for next year. I love Dresden and hope local people will fly there for a few days.

[8674planes]

Image of Said OLT fokker 100 on Southend Airport's twitter page Twitter / SouthendAirport: We had our first OLT Express ... (http://twitter.com/SouthendAirport/status/258914665415987200/photo/1/large)

[stluke]

Anyone have figures for todays Dresden flight?

Also would somebody be able to provide me the arrive and departure times for the flights from Saarbrucken and Dresden tomorrow please as might go down to have a look at the F100's.

[davidjohnson6]

stluke - anal though it may be, if you want flight arrival and departure times, could I suggest visiting the OLT Express website ? There's a little drop down at the top right of the page allowing you to switch to English rather than German (just to the right of the word Deutsch)

[photoman27]

I have been told that the Sunday Dresden flights will be operated by Saab 2000's.

[fatmed]

Great start to saarbrucken flight. Is showing as diverted to Stuttgart. ?? reason.

Outbound from SEN listed as indefinite delay. So much for German efficiency. Is this airline a joke or what.

[Expressflight]

I had assumed it diverted to Stuttgart due to a tech problem after departure SCN, possibly to change aircraft at their engineering base. It's now shown with an ETA SEN of 1230L, so maybe they are rectifying the defect on the original aircraft.

[fatmed]

Outbound from Sen now shown as cancelled.

[Expressflight]

That's odd because it's now shown with an ETA SEN of 1100Z, which is backed up by it being shown on the STR departures board with an ETD of 0930Z. OLT certainly keep everyone guessing and booking with them would never be a dull experience from what we've seen so far!

[sxflyer]

According to the Stuttgart airport site the OLT is 'off stand' and is now a Saab, having arrived as a F100. So if it does turn up, one presumes the original flight wasn't too full.

Anyone know how busy yesterday and today's Dresden were?

[Expressflight]

Actually you couldn't have a clearer illustration today of how important it is to avoid getting a reputation as an unreliable airline. OLT could have avoided all the bad publicity with the DRS-SEN launch last Monday by simply biting the bullet and accepting the cost of operating the first three rotations whatever the pax number were.

If they had done that today's problems would have been looked at in isolation. The conclusion reached would probably have been that it was bad luck going tech after departure from SCN, that diverting to their engineering base was sensible and even that some delay was inevitable while they tried to rectify the fault. Having found they couldn't, they've substituted a Saab 2000 to operate the flight so it could be said they have done their best by their customers today.

As it is, it's a case of people thinking "here we go again, another launch day shambles". I hope someone within OLT may have learnt something in the past week.

[SWBKCB]

it's a case of people thinking

depends whether the people doing the thinking are potential passengers or the readers of this thread. Has OLT's reputation this week been damaged beyond those who keep a close eye on these things?

[vulcanised]

It's left me with the hope that their aircraft are considerably more reliable than their service.

[LTNman]

Southend certainly appears to be a Jonah airport for them.

Wonder if there is a little regret launching the service this time of year when there doesn't seem to be any demand.

I would have thought the best time to launch would be the spring.

[Expressflight]

LTNman

I'll say this and nothing more.

Your second and third lines make good sense.

Your first line doesn't; it's more a case of OLT being SEN's Jonah airline surely. Name me one thing about SEN which caused any of this week's problems? Of course, you'll come back all innocence saying "When did I ever say anything detrimental about SEN?"

Oops, I've forgotten my own rule about feeding the Trolls.

[Ernest Lanc's]

Expressflight

LTNman was right in his 3rd point.

I have thought there was little to gain launching the OLT service this side of Xmas.

The airline and the airport had zilch to gain.

I think SEN would be well withing their rights to stop this ridiculous OLT circus.

Even if OLT do send a plane or two, it will IMO be history by July 2013,

Get rid of OLT, I doubt they will be missed.

[Phileas Fogg]

"Wonder if there is a little regret launching the service this time of year when there don’t seem to be any demand"

"Your second and third lines make good sense"


Really ... that there's no such word as "doesn't" in the English language anymore?

Reading this business of OLT, you mean, just as one example, when Easyjet started out of LTN on Air Foyle's AOC everything ran smoothly and, as another example, BA never had/have an aircraft on shuttle reserve in event of a technical problem?

Alas, it seems, this SEN thread had become a thread for the spotters, the rubberneckers, online logging in to these flight tracker, or whatever, websites. The travelling public don't frequent such flight tracker websites nor forums such as this thus no reputation has been damaged until yet and will only get talked about, in the passenger world rather than the spotter world, if it becomes something worthy of talking about.

Amen

[LTNman]

Really ... that there's no such word as "doesn't" in the English language anymore?


I spotted my error and could not get back in to correct it. Two reboots later I was in:ok:


Your first line doesn't; it's more a case of OLT being SEN's Jonah airline surely.

From Southend's point of view, very true.

[Expressflight]

You've lost me there Phileas.

In fairness to LTNman he does "make sense" when he says that a mid-October launch (with little time for marketing and without an effective website) might be regretted by OLT. Also the best time to launch would surely have been next Spring, as he suggests.

Regarding your assertion that "no reputation has been damaged until(?) yet .... ", this overlooks the large spread with photo in Die Welt when the inaugural DRS-SEN was cancelled, and maybe elsewhere in the mainstream media.. Perhaps the good folk of Dresden don't read that newspaper.

Amen indeed, especially as it's apparently OK to say "until yet", but not "don't" instead of "doesn't". Hey ho.

To get back to facts, the SB2000 seems to be night-stopping SEN with the return SCN cancelled. Reportedly 28 pax on the inbound.

[LTNman]

Oh dear, the story hits the UK press Question mark over Southend Airport's German flights (From Echo) (http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/local_news/9993213.Question_mark_over_Southend_Airport_s_German_flights/?ref=nt)

[Ernest Lanc's]

Really ... that there's no such word as "doesn't" in the English language anymore?

Are you sure about that?.


So that brings the word into English, and how did it develop after that? The nineteenth century saw major changes in the word’s use. As a noun it was applied to another prehistoric elephant, the mastodon (http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/114829), from 1815 onwards. In fact, this [doesn’t] fit the scientific evidence, as the mastodon isn’t really particularly closely related to the mammoth, but it was another big prehistoric elephant, so (in the light of knowledge at the time) it wasn’t surprising that it was called after the real mammoth. But as scientific knowledge improved this sense died out (1850), as more correct terminology took its place.

'mammoth' | Oxford English Dictionary (http://public.oed.com/aspects-of-english/word-stories/mammoth/)

[LTNman]

Google street view has been updated so the new terminal now appears for the first time. Looks like it was taken around April with a couple of Easyjet aircraft in the background.

[tws123]

Email from Bernard Jacobs:

"We are making good progress with the set-up of the airline. Main investment has been in place to acquire the operational assets.
We are now in the process of organisation structuring and initial network planning.

We expect to send out the first press release end of this month .

We can then also indicate the plans for SEN and timeline."

[Expressflight]

Yes, nearly there.

[Phileas Fogg]

Expressflight,

And it's true, news such as this becomes very quickly forgotten, this week's news becomes next week's fish & chips wrapper.

I'm so far removed from UK and without TV or radio I have very little idea what people on the street may be talking about but I'd hazard a guess they're talking about the economy, the Jimmy Savile scandal, the US presidential election, that's there's some maniac driving around Cardiff hitting people with his car, realistically how many people do you think are talking about some tin pot airline from Germany that the vast majority have never heard of?

And when some minute percentage of the news reading public decide to travel to or from Dresden or Saarbrucken in 6 months or a year from now they'll perhaps get a secretary or a travel agent to organise it or they may well go to one of the many search engines, the chances that they'll look and/or particularly care regarding the identity of the operator is questionable, paramount will be the price and/or schedule.

[Barling Magna]

Thanks to LTNman for discovering that the news has at least hit the Southend evening newspaper. I was most interested in Alastair Welch's comments in the article (see below). I bet SEN have tried hard to dissuade OLT Express from starting before next spring but, with stubbornness, OLT Express have gone ahead and created a farceical situation - I'm not sure that the reputation for German efficiency was ever much deserved and OLT EXpress certainly doen't derserve it......

Alastair Welch, the managing director of Southend Airport, said he understood the flights would start properly next summer.


He added: “It is my understanding that some flights may continue this year, during the German holiday season, but those will largely be aimed at the German tourist market.


“We have held discussions with OLT about the most appropriate time for them to start services.”

[8674planes]

tonights OLT arrival has been delayed to 21:25. It appears that they will be operating a denim air Fokker 50 instead of a Saab 2000.

[LTNman]

OLT Express has nothing to lose, SEN has it's reputation on the line if the pax are messed about.

LTNman replied.

Think you have that the wrong way around. When services are cancelled I have never seen passengers blaming the airport unless it is due to snow, ice or fog so I can't see what Southend has to worry about.

Well today is the day that passengers will be blaming Southend and not the airlines for their cancelled and diverted flights. I am sure passengers are asking the question why can’t aircraft land in fog at Southend when they can at other London Airports. Not a good day for Southend with its CAT 1 ILS

Remember it is not the end of the world, fog does not seem to harm London City.

[davidjohnson6]

Is today the first proper test of difficult weather / fog for Southend, or has there been an earlier event on a similiar scale since April this year ?
Based on previous years, roughly how many days per year would one normally expect Southend to have significant weather related issues comparable to today ?

[LTNman]

Ezy7418 alicante 16:05
expected 00:15

ezy7436 malaga 23:10
expected 01:50

ezy726 jersey 16:30
cancelled

ei330 dublin 16:45
cancelled

ezy7406
amsterdam
18:40
18:40
-

ei3178 waterford 20:30
cancelled

ei3308 dublin
20:55
cancelled

ezy72 belfast
22:00
diverted


EZY740 AMSTERDAM 16:10
OPERATING OUT OF STANSTED 16:10

EZY7435 MALAGA 16:50
OPERATING OUT OF STANSTED 16:50

EI3307 DUBLIN 17:10
CANCELLED 17:10

EZY719 BELFAST 19:05
OPERATING OUT OF STANSTED 19:05

EI317 WATERFORD 20:55
CANCELLED 20:55

Add 5 hours for UK time zone. noon = 17:00

Noon (16) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.15 (1021) ENE 8 fog
11 AM (15) Oct 22 55 (13) 55 (13) 30.15 (1021) ENE 7 fog
10 AM (14) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.15 (1021) ENE 7 fog
9 AM (13) Oct 22 57 (14) 57 (14) 30.12 (1020) NE 7 fog
8 AM (12) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.12 (1020) ENE 9 fog
7 AM (11) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.12 (1020) ENE 10 fog
6 AM (10) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.12 (1020) ENE 12 fog
5 AM (9) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.12 (1020) ENE 8 fog
4 AM (8) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.09 (1019) NE 7 fog
3 AM (7) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.09 (1019) NE 6 fog
2 AM (6) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.06 (1018) NE 5 fog
1 AM (5) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.06 (1018) NE 6 fog
Midnight (4) Oct 22 55 (13) 55 (13) 30.06 (1018) NE 6 fog

[welkyboy]

London City has an awful lot of cancelled flights today, so it's not just Southend, all Londons airports have been affected

[LTNman]

A real pea soup at Luton with visibility of only100m and overcast at 100ft but the airport is unaffected. I well remember the days of LTN’s Cat1 ILS when the airport would be shut down for 18 hours at a time.

I share the pain of Southend's biggest fans on this forum.:{

[Tagron]

LTNman is correct in that the lack of an ILS better than Cat 1 has caused disruption at SEN today. However, the situation is more complex than he implies. The RVR at SEN for much of the day was below Cat 2 minima, so all those aircraft types only certificated to Cat 2 would not have been able to take advantage of a Cat 3 ILS if it existed. This means some jets and (I think) all turboprops. The same would have applied at some other Southern England airports which have a Cat 3 capability, including LTN..

It is also interesting to note that BA today have cancelled over 50 departures from LHR and LGW. The reason almost certainly will be Low Visibility Procedures required for Cat 2/3, even poor Cat 1, with consequent reduction in flow rates and slot restrictions.

[8674planes]

The only flight that has been at Southend today is the OLT flights. All Easyjet and Aer Lingus flights from Southend have been wither diverted or cancelled.

[LTNman]

The irony of the above post should not be forgotten.

[Barling Magna]

Absolutely. The Dresden Express managed to get straight in during a brief lifting of the cloud and fog. They don't really deserve that piece of luck, do they....?

The EZY flight from Faro held over SEN for nearly 45 minutes before heading for STN - and then, of course, the cloud and fog lifted briefly again within 5 minutes of his decision to divert. Unfortunately the weather looks similar for the next couple of days..........

LCY and STN itself were also affected by the fog today. Such weather conditions are quite rare at SEN for any length of time. That doesn't help those being ferried across Essex at the moment though.

[pabely]

Remember CATIII is a hell of an expensive piece of kit with high running costs. Southend has a good weather record so I doubt it will be in the plan for the near future. It's just bad luck today and probally tomorrow.

[SENChris]

I'm now sitting in New York, very glad the 6:45am flight made it out of SEN to Dublin. A few comments to be made about the efficiency of the whole process in Dublin (we were dropped off at US pre-clearance and told to go strsight through but they weren't ready for us for over an hour). Bags were also very, very slow coming through in JFK but otherwise was very impressed with the experience.

[pottwiddler]

Remember CATIII is a hell of an expensive piece of kit with high running costs. Southend has a good weather record so I doubt it will be in the plan for the near future. It's just bad luck today and probally tomorrow.

Expensive to buy but running costs are not as high as you imply, the tolerances are tighter but modern equipment is a lot more stable these days. Maintenance isn't any more onerous, still requires 180 day flight checking as with CATI ILS. The only higher costs are down to running two transmitters at the same time for hot standby.:ok:

[LTNman]

Another day and and another day of disruption.

Southend flight boards do not make good reading

Add 5 hours for UK time

2 AM (6) Oct 23 53 (12) 51 (11) 30.21 (1023) N 5 fog
1 AM (5) Oct 23 53 (12) 53 (12) 30.21 (1023) N 6 fog
Midnight (4) Oct 23 53 (12) 53 (12) 30.21 (1023) N 5 fog
11 PM (3) Oct 22 55 (13) 53 (12) 30.21 (1023) N 6 fog
10 PM (2) Oct 22 55 (13) 53 (12) 30.21 (1023) N 6 fog
9 PM (1) Oct 22 55 (13) 55 (13) 30.21 (1023) N 5 fog
8 PM (0) Oct 22 55 (13) 53 (12) 30.21 (1023) N 5 fog
7 PM (23) Oct 22 55 (13) 53 (12) 30.21 (1023) N 3 fog
6 PM (22) Oct 22 55 (13) 53 (12) 30.21 (1023) NE 3 fog
5 PM (21) Oct 22 55 (13) 55 (13) 30.21 (1023) ENE 6 fog
4 PM (20) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.21 (1023) NE 7 light drizzle; mist
3 PM (19) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.18 (1022) ENE 2 fog
2 PM (18) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.18 (1022) ENE 5 light drizzle; fog
1 PM (17) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.18 (1022) NE 8 light drizzle; mist
Noon (16) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.15 (1021) ENE 8 fog
11 AM (15) Oct 22 55 (13) 55 (13) 30.15 (1021) ENE 7 fog
10 AM (14) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.15 (1021) ENE 7 fog
9 AM (13) Oct 22 57 (14) 57 (14) 30.12 (1020) NE 7 fog
8 AM (12) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.12 (1020) ENE 9 fog
7 AM (11) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.12 (1020) ENE 10 fog
6 AM (10) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.12 (1020) ENE 12 fog
5 AM (9) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.12 (1020) ENE 8 fog
4 AM (8) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.09 (1019) NE 7 fog
Oldest 3 AM (7) Oct 22 57 (14) 55 (13) 30.09 (1019) NE 6 fog

[LTNman]

I'm now sitting in New York, very glad the 6:45am flight made it out of SEN to Dublin

very impressed with the experience.

Think you would have a different view if you was intending to leave today

EI3301 DUBLIN 06:45 CANCELLED

[photoman27]

London City have 21 arrivals & 28 departures cancelled or diverted so far today so they are also doomed to that great airport in the sky as well as SEN if we are to listen LTNman.:=

[LTNman]

To save you reading my post 1128 here it is for you

Remember it is not the end of the world, fog does not seem to harm London City.

[kriskross]

Is it legal for a Cat 3 ILS to be operated on the narrow runway at Southend?

[Expressflight]

No, not possible. It will always be a CAT 1 runway.

Airbus, in conjunction with easyJet, have some interesting ideas and I understand they plan to do some test flying at JER in this connection.

[pabely]

That is a good point about the runway width.

[Tagron]

In theory I suppose it should be possible to certificate the A319 for autoland on a 37m runway.but I imagine the approval process could be long and expensive. The sort of issue that might need to be considered could be unintended autopilot disconnect during rollout in crosswind conditions. Perhaps if such approval were ever to be obtained the Cat 3 limits would be higher than for a standard width runway.

The turboprops generally can operate to Cat 2 with manual landing so it might be argued the width of the runway is irrelevant to them. Cat 2 would enable landings in (say) 350-400m RVR. UK fogs usually seem to stabilise at a figure lower than that, but it would still be much better for the turboprops than Cat 1.

There may be other issues additional to the runway width why Cat 2/3 at SEN may not be practicable. For example, approach lighting would need to be upgraded. Supplementary approach lighting and touchdown zone lighting would need to be installed. The regulations appear to state that nowadays in the UK the Cat 2 and 3 lighting requirements are the same. Would site limitations permit this at SEN ?

Stobarts have not been exactly shy of investing in quality equipment so I imagine they must have examined this issue. The runway extension work would have offered the obvious opportunity to install TDZ lighting as a provision for the future. I would guess they concluded that Cat 2/3 was not economically viable or simply not practicable.

Incidentally on the subject of running costs I am given to understand it is the power requirements of operating the Cat 2/3 lighting that is the major incremental expense.

[LTNman]

If the runway was the standard width would that church that is close to the runway also stop CAT 3 ops?

[Tagron]

I expect it would be a consideration, though I don't know enough about the detail of the regulations to say with any certainty.

[mikkie4]

with the church being so close to the runway why cant they extend the width on the other side plenty of green field space?wouldnt that take the planes further away from the church

[FRatSTN]

It would marginally yes, but then what chances are there of Southend being able to widen the runway any time soon?

As doing that would move the location of the centre line (whilst widening an equal width at both sides would not) it would probably involve complex changes to ILS and another navaid systems, as well as the relocation od approach lights and runway lighting itself. It would be a lot of hassle just to have the runway that little bit wider!

[WJ888]

Maastricht Airlines (http://maastricht-airlines.nl/gb_en/pages)

According to this website, another new Dutch airline will be founded, Maastricht Airlines. Flights should start in January 2013, initially from Maastricht to Amsterdam, Berlin SXF, Munich and Paris CDG. From 2014, SEN and Copenhagen will be added. Flights operated by Fokker 50's.

Found via mst-aviation.nl

[8674planes]

Yesterday about 5 Easyjet A319 arrived within 15 minutes! that must have been a good sight at the terminal this morning!

[photoman27]

The next phase of the terminal extension should start sometime in the next month the 1st phase will be the new arrivals area which should be completed by May 2013 & the final phase for the rest of the terminal should be completed prior to Christmas 2013.

[stluke]

Southend Airport announces £10million terminal expansion (From Echo) (http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/local_news/10005182.Southend_Airport_announces 10million_terminal_expansion/)

[LTNman]

Find it hard to believe that it will take to the year 2020 to reach 2 million passengers. Southend should reach that figure long before that date.

[student88]

Yes but two arrived empty after positioning in from STN.

[Barling Magna]

Maastricht Airlines (http://maastricht-airlines.nl/gb_en/pages)

According to this website, another new Dutch airline will be founded, Maastricht Airlines. Flights should start in January 2013, initially from Maastricht to Amsterdam, Berlin SXF, Munich and Paris CDG. From 2014, SEN and Copenhagen will be added. Flights operated by Fokker 50's.

When I first saw this I thought here we go again with another Europort Express paper airline, but this seems to have more substance. An internet search shows that Hamid Kerboua was one of the founders of Denim Air, owner of Flyport International (a modular passenger terminal firm) and K'Air. Maastricht to SEN would work well, I think, especially with F50 size equipment. Let's hope they plan their start of schedules rather better than OLT Express did!!

[Barling Magna]

A quote from the SEN website below. Does the second paragraph infer an increase in EZY based aircraft?


The terminal building will become 90 metres longer. The number of check in desks / baggage drop off points will increase, as will the amount of space for passengers in security. The Departure Lounge will grow in size to enhance the experience for passengers relaxing and awaiting boarding after security. A larger Arrivals area will have enhanced baggage reclaim facilities and a larger immigration area. Retail and catering facilities will be expanded throughout the terminal in order to provide a much wider range of shops and services available to passengers.

The 300 new jobs will arise from the increase in Southend based aircraft over time which will result in a variety of additional operational and service roles such as passenger service, security, retail, catering, baggage handling, engineering and maintenance, plus airline crew from London Southend based airline operations.

[Phileas Fogg]

Barling Magna,

Until they retired the fleet KLM Royal Dutch Airlines, with all their marketing, could only justify a F50 on the RTM/LHR/RTM route.

Maastricht ain't a Rotterdam and SEN ain't a Heathrow!

[Barling Magna]

True enough. It will all depend on marketing, pricing, timing etc....

[sxflyer]

Actually, for a bit of factual accuracy Air Exel operated Maastricht from STN for many years, ceasing in the post-9/11 full service apocalypse.

Comparing with RTM is ridiculous, RTM is on the doorstep of AMS in a completely different part of the country. It's like saying a route to Newcastle wouldn't work because one to Liverpool wasn't too popular.

FR fly to Maastricht, but with timings that aren't too business friendly.

[Yak97]

Didn't KLM operate that as a sort of corporate shuttle for a major corporation? - SHELL / UNILEVER??

[photoman27]

Easyjet today have confirmed that they will be basing a 4th aircraft at London Southend Airport from June 2013 new routes will include Berlin 6 x weekly & Krakow 4 x weekly, great news!!.

[stluke]

photoman27 - Is there anything official out confirming the 4th Aircraft?

[FRatSTN]

Also flights to Marrakech, Sharm El Sheikh and Sofia have been confirmed by EasyJet this morning from STANSTED. the STN-ALC route is to axe in June 2013 along with frequency cuts in a few others as one aircraft is pulled out at that time. Clearly this is the aircraft that will move to Southend so it will happen!

[8674planes]

Where did you get that easyjet news photoman17?

[tayair6]

i am new today after read about cat regulation i didnt know that Airport is limit to A319 that nothing to do with length of runway am i correct ?

[8674planes]

No it's nothing to do with the runway length. It's more to-do with the width and other factors. And no the limit is not A319. The airport is limited to aircraft the size of 757,A321,727,707 without passengers. With passengers your looking at A320 or 737.

[Ernest Lanc's]

With passengers your looking at A320 or 737.

By 737, I take it you mean 737-300 max?..The runway at BLK will allow for a 737-800 and up to a 757.

The runway lengths are similar, but the runway at SEN is quite narrow.

London Southend Airport has one runway 06/24.
BBA. Starter extension at eastern end of length 135m
Length = 1856m Width = 37m

Surely with the growth at SEN which is impressive, the runway will need to be widened.

[adfly]

I believe the runway @ SOU is only 37/38m wide and it can take up to 757's and A321's with passengers no problem. Is there an additional factor which stops this from being the case @ SEN?

[tayair6]

yes ,i know the 757,737 727,707 321 and 320 use SEN without passenger no problem with width runway . i think it restrict to limit weight of plane .... that CAA policy rule is start for SEN

[s2art1e]

Does anyone have a view on what the loads have been like on the OLT Express flights from and to Dresden this week? I see the we're operating a Fokker 50 earlier in the week, but reverted back to the Fokker 100 yesterday and today (Friday).

[Ernest Lanc's]

The runway at SEN is 37M wide.

I was replying to http://www.pprune.org/7488309-post1169.html #1169

I noticed the absence of a mention of a 575 or a B737-800.

BLK has a main runway 10/28 length 1869m and a width of 46m.

I have flown on an A320 and 757 are used at BLk for time to time.

However according to LTNman, when FR operated Stansted/Dublin and Girona from BLK with their 737-800. It was with some of the front seats roped off.

[tayair6]

Southend 1856 m 6,089 ft
blackpool 1849 m 6,066 ft
norwich 1841 m 6,040 ft

[Tagron]

The runway width, per se, does not make any direct difference to the performance limitations of any of the aforementioned aircraft. SEN is a Code 3C airport but the 757 is a Code 4D aircraft, by virtue of its wingspan which is approx 5m above the Code 3 limit. My understanding from a previous reading (and I think it must be in ICAO Annex 14 though I haven't the time to research it now) is that it is a general principle that an aircraft can operate commercially "one below" its code, but that specific CAA approval may be required and there may be a limitation to the number of operations.

The irony is that the runway performance of the 757 is far better than either the A321 or the 738 (which are Code 3), and it would be a very capable aircraft from SEN's runway. But in talking of (e.g.) the 738 we have to bear in mind that different operators use different take off thrust ratings. So with the 738 the 24000lb thrust aircraft is not much use commercially at SEN but the 27000lb thrust version as used by some UK operators would have a rather better payload/range profile.

Then there are different configurations and seating densities, or Weight Variants to use the Airbus term. It does not help operations from SEN that the versions most likely to be potential users of SEN are the heavyweight high density seating variants. The issue is not so much whether commercial operations are possible but whether they are commercially attractive to the operator in the light of restrictions on range or payload.

In comparing runways at different airports some caution is necessary. Rather than simple length of paved surface, declared distances TODA TORA and ASDA are a better comparison. Then there are factors which is not possible to evaluate by casual inspection such as slope and second segment climb. The only really reliable picture emerges when an individual operator evaluates performance of its own aircraft against all the parameters of the individual runway.

And a final point is that regardless of the above considerations none of these aircraft (A321, 738 and 757) can operate commercially from SEN at present because they require RFF7 whereas SEN operates to RFF6. But that could be addressed readily by SEN spending the money on the upgrade if it could see the expenditure was justified.

[tayair6]

thank for information it could the fact about SEN runway situation

[Seljuk22]

STN-ALC 12 weekly will end on 16th June. Can't imagine EZY will end a route like that before the high (summer) season starts without a replacement (SEN-ALC).
So I think SEN-ALC will also see some additional flights (maybe double daily from current 6 weekly) + SEN-SXF 6 weekly + SEN-KRK 4 weekly + maybe some new flights to BCN (cause STN-BCN will be canceled too) and a 4th aircraft is required.

[mikkie4]

all extra flights will be greatly accepted,just to proove to the tree huggers & loonies who said that the airport was a waste of time!!!!!

[j636]

STN-ALC 12 weekly will end on 16th June. Can't imagine EZY will end a route like that before the high (summer) season starts without a replacement (SEN-ALC).
So I think SEN-ALC will also see some additional flights (maybe double daily from current 6 weekly) + SEN-SXF 6 weekly + SEN-KRK 4 weekly + maybe some new flights to BCN (cause STN-BCN will be canceled too) and a 4th aircraft is required.


VCE will be an addition to summer 13 progame so slot that in to.

[Ernest Lanc's]

mikkie4
all extra flights will be greatly accepted,just to proove to the tree huggers & loonies who said that the airport was a waste of time!!!!!

Well said..Any airport that attracts pax is NOT a waste of time..We had loons on the BLK thread that has BLK built on years ago, and the new forecast I believe is within 10 years.

Strange jet2 has given BLK 3 new routes next year..Dalaman, Ibiza and Lanzarote.

Sen are doing very nicely, Eazy thinks so too.

[New Starter]

I have been silently campaigning for this route since before easyjet's arrival was announced. What is the source for this information? No official announcements from EZY themselves as far as I can see?

[davidjohnson6]

New Starter - how does one campaign silently ? Surely campaigning must involve persuading others of some idea or opinion that you have, which therefore means communicating to other people and thus by definition is not silent

[fatmed]

Personally can see Poland as good for sen plenty of polish people living in Sarfend who could use this route to pop home and see the family

[LTNman]

You should be careful for what you wish for?

The town of Southend will soon fill up with new migrants if routes to Eastern Europe are opened up from the airport.

First it is the young men who arrive, then their girlfriends and wives. Next they have or bring over their children and then their parents move over here to work or retire.

There are so many living in Luton now that their children are shipped out to outlying area's, as the town centre schools are full. Over 50% of births in Luton are now from mothers not born in the UK.

I can catch the staff bus at Luton Airport and hear no one speak English as the Eastern European check-in staff, baggage handlers, cleaners and others that do all the other jobs that keeps the airport open arrive or leave work.

The locals who work at Southend will start to decrease and the new jobs will go to new migrants as the companies based at the airport realise that they can offer lower wages and no pay rises to keep their costs down.

So why will Southend town attract so many new migrants? It is because they will be able to get back to Poland quicker and cheaper than I can get to Blackpool by train to see my father from Luton.

[Jes]

Yeah yeah. Non-Brits are immigrants, but Brits that move abroad are ex-Pats.

My family moved to Britain in the late 1700s. Are we ethnically pure yet?

[tayair6]

Will New Airbus NEO able to help boast SEN airport? and it future !

[fatmed]

there all ready here ltnman just have a more convenient departure point than STN and a better airline than the Irish lot IMO anyway.

[j636]

Aer Lingus have dropped the Saturday Waterford flight in November and have also dropped a few DUB rotations.

[LTNman]

Demand will always drop in the winter or is this a further reduction on the winter timetable?

[j636]

Demand will always drop in the winter or is this a further reduction on the winter timetable?


A further reduction compared to last years schedule.

[Lord Gumboil Jnr.]

Jes

What LTNman has said makes a lot of sense to me and your uneccessary reply seems to miss the point. I just think that whatever the long term effect is on Southend, due to easy connectivity to East European countries, then if easyJet weren't doing it, then some other airline probably will eventually.

[fatmed]

new routes from easyjet now confirmed on sen website. :)

[Barling Magna]

Excellent news. It's amazing to stop for a moment and think what the airport was like just two years ago.......

Shooting Stars - Tumbleweed - YouTube

But the future is certainly bright. I'd be even happier if someone started to operate A320s from SEN's runway though, those A319s aren't going to be with EZY for ever.....:ooh:

[tayair6]

that was i am saying Airbus NEO will able do that jobs at SEN

[davidjohnson6]

that was i am saying Airbus NEO will able do that jobs at SEN
Not sure I fully understand what you're trying to say - could you perhaps rephrase your statement ?

[Barling Magna]

I think Tayair believes that the A320NEO will be able to operate from SEN's runway. I haven't seen any performance figures for the NEO, other than improved fuel efficiency. Is it likely to have sprightly take-off performance with more economical engines?

[student88]

Rumour has it EZY will trial sharklets from SEN on the A319 once they're certified for operation in 2013, what with the improved performance and all.

A good idea me thinks.

[tayair6]

excuse for my english yes you are right about Airbus NEO it is had newsiest engine with improvement trust to better performance on take off

[LTNman]

Thought the issue is with the runway width.

[tayair6]

Still be A319 NEO with extra fuel to take four flight distance

[tws123]

Just to put a rumour in the mix, Hellas Airlines, a start-up from Greece, plan to operate a London-Volos route from the middle of January 2013 using A320 equipment. Tickets on sale from 15th December with a return priced at 160 euros. They want to operate a 'same seat, same time, same day' fare policy. No clues as to what the London airport may be, but have read rumours about another airline possibly coming to SEN in early 2013 - is there a connection here? BUT with such a long route and A320 aircraft is it too far for SEN? Heres the link: Hellas Airlines - Hellas Airlines | Airline Tickets, Low Cost Flights (http://www.en-gb.flyhellasairlines.com/). Also for a route map click on the greek version of the website homepage and scroll down on your left handside, then click the right tab above the greek route map for the European map :ok:

[davidjohnson6]

Adults usually feel a need to teach their kids how to cross the road and avoid being hit by fast moving heavy vehicles.
Whenever I see an airline that wants to have a policy of "same price for every flight", a similiar feeling occurs when I think of the airline management. Would someone be kind enough to sit them down one quiet afternoon and explain the basic laws of economics please ?
Seeing people unconscious on the street and bleeding heavily really is not a pretty sight.

[planenut321]

A route to a relatively unknown Greek port launching in January with only 1 month of lead in ticket sales...

Bet it doesn't even get off the ground.

Also their mock-up livery looks really professional ;)

[tws123]

Well I wondered what people would think of this and I totally agree. Most of the recent start-ups all seem to follow a similar business model :ugh: Anyway we'll see what happens.

[Tagron]

More to the point, the Hellas Airlines route looks too far for planning purposes for an A320 from SEN's runway, given that a low cost carrier would be looking to operate in a high density seating configuration, i.e. high ZFW.

The news of this carrier makes interesting reading, but unless someone has positive information to the contrary, I suggest it has no relevance to the SEN thread.

[adfly]

Hellas - Tor air - Viking Hellas - Viking Airlines - XL Airways - Phil Wyatt?

[LTNman]

I think a few people here are now starting to get carried away. Yes Southend will reach 2 million passengers per year probably well before 2020 but it will be mainly through easyjet.

Then what is going to happen when the airport is full as 2,000,000 is not a big number. I guess there will not be so much then to talk about.

[Barnaby the Bear]

I agree LTNman, its seems any mention of a London Airport on a website and its automatically SEN. :ugh:
But then again if people are talking about the Airport in those terms can only help raise the profile.
I also agree 2m is probably going to be achieved long before 2020, and mostly through EZY with others such as REA even perhaps OLT and TUI contributing a smaller no less important contribution.
Southend is always going to be limited by space, the terminal and Section106 movement restrictions will only allow for so much growth. At no point would/could Southend compete on passenger numbers with Luton, Stansted etc.
They can compete easily on the customer experience, which is already getting good reviews.
With Stobart providing the retail, accomodation and ground services on this scale, and in house, they are able to maximise the returns at the same time.
Pushing ahead with the extended terminal is desperately needed in order to keep and enhance the experience... That begins next month. :ok:
Routes/operators will come and go and i suspect passenger numbers may even nudge above 2m... Hopefully the corporate market may become better exploited with heavy mx continuing to play an important part at Southend.

They'll still be something to talk about for years to come... Though I suspect immediate media focus will be more on which of the larger 'London' Airports will get the extra tarmac...including Luton.

[tws123]

That is not why I posted it! := This was a relavent post by my part. The only reason was because it mentioned London as a destination in January 2013 when there are strong rumours going around about an airline coming into SEN in early 2013! :confused: If there was no rumour about a new airline I wouldn't have made a fuss about it simple as. As this is a thread about the airport and its current and future possible airlines I thought it might be of interest to some.:)

[Expressflight]

I think your original post was valid, but that is not the new airline likely to be seen at SEN early in 2013 as far as I know.

[LTNman]

OK I will start a rumour based on nothing. I have heard a rumour that a new start up airline is looking to base itself at Southend flying to the Nordic countries. There is absolutely nothing in this rumour but if I didn’t make it clear that there is no truth in it there would be 10 posts about it by tomorrow.

Most rumours are just that and are often based on nothing.

[TSR2]

OK I will start a rumour based on nothing

Emirates twice daily with A380's. ;)

[tws123]

My guess work was based around Expressflight's post on the airhumberside forum. Thank you for clarifying that its not them ;)

Also expecting an announcement from Join! Regional Airlines in the next few days if their email was truthful on there operations from Southend next year. :D

[pabely]

Looking at the Join Regional web site their map shows AMS-SEN, they obviously want to drop on a sword before they even start!

[Expressflight]

LTNman

I'm disappointed that you haven't realised by now that I never post "rumours ..... based on nothing".

However, there is a certain unintended irony within your post.

[tophat27dt]

Expressflight.

Don't let LTNman get to you (again). He is obviously a provocator, and I can always anticipate his postings and comments, to the extent that they are worthless. He should stick to news about his beloved LTN airport, and not write sarcastic and negative comments about the new SEN. I know he is free to his views but, for me, it's always a big yawn.

I always eagerly await your posting because I sense you are somebody in SEN who hears the latest news (and rumours).

I see nobody has responded with the daily pax loads on the OLTexpress flights. They seem to have settled down quite nicely and are usually on-time. Their operation from Saarbrucken is doing ok. Let's hope they will not be poached away from us next spring.

[tws123]

Actually AMS is a destination on the old map, the new one no longer shows AMS as a destination from Southend. They're not that stupid and I suspect that the map will change a bit anyway.

And heres something to please LTNman - Hellas Airlines are flying from Luton - Volos next year!

[tophat27dt]

the airline emailed me today and confirmed they will use London-Luton. LTNman will be happy!

[Falcon666]

Tophat27dt
Interesting news for us a bit further up north about Hellas.
Don't be too downhearted as I suspect they chose LTN for geographical location and the catchment area- a lot of Greeks live further north.
Never really understood why Easy dropped Athens from LTN a few years back.
SEN will still continue to attract airlines and so it should,friend flew out earlier and said it a nice experience so may get to try one day.

[vulcanised]

I sometimes wonder if LTNman has been banned from the Luton thread, given the amount of trolling he does in here.

[LTNman]

Express Flight wrote

LTNman

I'm disappointed that you haven't realised by now that I never post "rumours ..... based on nothing".

However, there is a certain unintended irony within your post.

I wasn't even talking about you:=

vulcanised wrote

I sometimes wonder if LTNman has been banned from the Luton thread, given the amount of trolling he does in here.

Please hunt back through old posts and find my last troll post if you can:confused:

tophat27dt wrote

He should stick to news about his beloved LTN airport, and not write sarcastic and negative comments about the new SEN.

Again please hunt back and find my last sarcastic and negative post if you can. :confused:

Silence speaks volumes if folk here make accusations without backing it up with examples.

Sorry if I don't always gloss up my posts and just post facts without the spin.:oh:

Come on guys let’s just chill out and be a bit more friendly to out of towners:ok:

[fatmed]

Looking at the schedule for the 4th aircraft from 17th June. Is it just serving at 2 new routes or are extra frequencies on the Spanish routes likely to be added?

[tayair6]

i have no idea. normal three route per plane day maybe they are looking at one extra short route . jersey,Amsterdam is one of shorten route and are they looking for another shorten route ?

[LTNman]

Stobart will be taking a hit on income with the likes of this company and no doubt others. Airport parking firm operating without planning permission (From Southend Standard) (http://www.southendstandard.co.uk/news/10000077.Airport_parking_firm_operating_illegally/)

[V_2]

A rather humorous expansion plan someone has made up for Southend/London... London-Southend Pier International Airport | Southend – Gateway to London (http://southendpierinternationalairport.wordpress.com/)

[Lord Gumboil Jnr.]

As far as I have observed, there appear to be no local authority licencing details on the vehicles (glorified vans with windows) that they are using. Furthermore, the only telephone no. displayed is a mobile number! Seems very odd to me. They are one of the clandestine operators that Stobart's warn passengers about.

[Fairdealfrank]

London-Southend Pier
Ha ha this is great! Could we have one at Bournemouth (London West) as well? Funny how the graphic shown as the airport looks suspiciously like Chek Lap Kok (2 rwys)!

[BAladdy]

Looking at the schedule for the 4th aircraft from 17th June. Is it just serving at 2 new routes or are extra frequencies on the Spanish routes likely to be added?

You may find out about extra frequencies very soon. As I think EZY are in the process of loading a updated S13 schedule into there booking system. The reason I say this is because I have just been looking at EZY's S13 schedule for flight to IBZ. Flight are showing a operating the same 3 x weekly frequency as they did during S12 from 18MAY13 to 15JUN13. Strangely the frequency appear to reduce from the 15JUN13 to the end of the operational season to daily with flights operating in a Saturday only.

[SENChris]

"Beyond that, additional capacity will be available on some of the existing routes which have proven highly popular this summer."

Taken from the press release on the SEN website. I think it is safe to assume that they are coming but have not yet been loaded.

[Expressflight]

If EZY do plan to increase S13 frequencies on, for example, SEN-ALC I think they need to make these available sooner than later.

With STN-ALC not being available for S13 I see that the still only once daily SEN-ALC prices for July are much higher than for LTN-ALC. I assume this is due to some potential STN pax already booking for a SEN departure. Surely they don't want to hand some of that business to competitors for lack of increased capacity at SEN. I thought the ALC route would be an automatic beneficiary of the 4th SEN aircraft.

[Barling Magna]

I think they are doing this now. Certainly I can see some changes have appeared on the EZY booking pages. For example increased frequencies on the Barcelona flights with twice daily on Mondays and Fridays.

[matt345]

The Southend Pier airport plans have been picked up by the Architects' Journal magazine - Spoof Southend Pier airport plan revealed (http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/spoof-southend-pier-airport-plan-revealed/8637942.article)

[matt345]

I think the graphic used is Hong Kong airport...

[runway08]

Hellas Airlines - Door2Door Cargo (http://www.en-gb.flyhellasairlines.com/index.php/packages/door2door-cargo)

If anyone clicked on that page they would realise this airline is not real. God help them if everything on that page was supposed to be taken seriously. Punctuation, Spelling.. Ridiculous statements "No bull" lol.

[vulcanised]

Why do we get all this rubbish from LTN in here?

[LTNman]

The same reason as to why comments about Southend can be found on other threads.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "I think the graphic used is Hong Kong airport..."

Indeed it is!

[maliyahsdad2]

I have a feeling Vulcanised was talking about the poster, not the airport!

[Hangar6]

Just on the wires now, not sure if its due to very poor loads or fleet change or maybe moving based a/c elsewhere, BHD?
Bad news for two regional airports:confused::confused::{

[Barling Magna]

Luton and Manchester too, as Aer Arann suspends all its services from Waterford:

05/11/2012 - 11:14:29
Aer Arann, operating as Aer Lingus Regional, is to suspend its services at Waterford Airport with effect from next January.

The routes affected will be Aer Lingus Regional services from Waterford Airport to London Southend, London Luton and Manchester.

Passengers with bookings for flights after January 6, 2013 will be contacted directly by the airline in the coming days. All passengers will be re-booked on alternative Aer Lingus Regional flights from other airports or given a full refund.

All Aer Arann employees at Waterford Airport will be redeployed in the company.

Sean Brogan, Interim Chief Executive at Aer Arann said: “We are in the process of finalising a new business plan that will put the airline on a path for growth.

“We have worked hard to overcome recent challenges, built a successful new partnership with Aer Lingus and grown our passenger numbers. If we are to protect and nurture these gains, we have got to concentrate resources on services that offer sustainable returns.

“Over recent months, the airline has conducted a network wide evaluation of all routes. It was clear from this evaluation that our Waterford routes have not performed to a sustainable level.

“As a result, we have taken the decision to suspend all services from Waterford from 6 January next. This decision is regrettable, not least because of the professionalism and support we have received from everyone at Waterford Airport.

“We sincerely regret the impact that this decision has on our customers.

“We do not rule out returning to Waterford at some point in the future if the business case can be justified.”

[TSR2]

According to Aer Arann :

our Waterford routes have not performed to a sustainable level.

[Hangar6]

I note from Waterford Airport press release that RE have sold the plane RE based there , presumably part of the RE plan to move to newer more reliable ATR's , ?

[ericlday]

Did splitting its London destination (SEN/LTN) create any additional traffic or did it merely dilute a fairly successful route ?

[Phileas Fogg]

You mean Aer Arran actually own their aircraft to sell them or, like the majority, they merely lease them to return them to the lessor?

[Barling Magna]

Did splitting its London destination (SEN/LTN) create any additional traffic or did it merely dilute a fairly successful route ? It's hard to tell because of the severity of the economic recession in Ireland, and in the UK too. But here are some figures, choosing September as a month to compare over the past four years:

Year
09/2009 LTN: 6631 SEN: 0 TOTAL: 6631
09/2010 LTN: 5137 SEN: 0 TOTAL: 5137
09/2011 LTN: 1551 SEN: 2477 TOTAL: 4028
09/2012 LTN: 2081 SEN: 2595 TOTAL: 4676

So numbers dropped by 23% between 2009 and 2010, without SEN being involved at all, then by 22% between 2010 and 2011 when SEN was introduced, with a 16% growth between 2011 and 2012.

So, as I said at the beginning, it's hard to tell whether the move to SEN had a major effect; would the downward trend at LTN seen between 2009 and 2010 have continued into 2011? All you can say is that traffic from both airports to Waterford was increasing this year.......

[Jamie2k9]

Waterford base changed form a ATR72 to 42 during winter 09/10. When SEN started FR increased there LTN-DUB traffic a lot which was a direct result of RE moving to SEN. Anyway its not just numbers revenue per passengers is much higher at LTN than SEN and thats what counts.

Also due to low numbers travling from GWY they sent many flights via WAT so that furhter reduced capacity from WAT in 2009/10.

[NABLAG]

From

http://www.waterfordairport.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=243&Itemid=200

Waterford Airport disappointed at Aer Lingus Regional cessation of London and Manchester routes

November 2012

Waterford Airport has expressed disappointment at the decision of Aer Lingus Regional to discontinue their London Luton, Southend and Manchester services from early January 2013 and withdraw their base from Waterford at that time. The flights are operated by Aer Arann who began flying from Waterford in 2003.

Acknowledging that Aer Arann’s business problems have been well documented, Graham Doyle, CEO, Waterford Airport said: “We have been aware of Aer Arann’s difficulties since before their examinership in 2010 and continued to work with them through these challenges. Regrettably, however, the airline has limited its capacity on the Waterford routes. This has been due to issues elsewhere in their business rather than the market in the Southeast region with a population of almost 500,000.

“This has seen services reduced on the consistently high-performing London Luton route in favour of Southend Airport, whose owners are now also Aer Arann’s largest shareholder. The Southend route performed poorly by comparison so that even a major marketing push by Waterford Airport and our partners could not fully mitigate this switch.

“It is clearly a blow to have key UK routes withdrawn in these particular circumstances and is especially disappointing given that the Aer Lingus Regional brand was only introduced at Waterford as recently as late March of this year – just over seven months ago. We were delighted to be working with the Aer Lingus brand but our understanding is that the decision arises from the sale of an aircraft by Aer Arann that necessitates them further cutting their route network.

“As well as the potential impacts for airline and airport staff, we are very aware of the effect this development will have on business and leisure passengers in to and out of the Southeast,” he continued.

From an airport perspective, Mr Doyle said no effort is being spared to replace these routes for 2013 and beyond. “While it’s very early days, we are guardedly optimistic that the business case for operating between Waterford and these important destinations will be attractive to another airline, as proved to be the case when Flybe took up the Birmingham route after it was dropped by Aer Arann. We will also now liaise will all stakeholders including the Dept of Transport, Tourism & Sport as well as the State agencies concerned with inward investment and tourism - all of whom continue to work closely in support of the airport.


“The level of investment that there has been in tourism infrastructure in Waterford as well as the planned ‘Medieval Mile’ project in Kilkenny make it even more vital that we maintain and build on regular passenger services from our nearest neighbour and biggest trading partner.”

Flybe continues to operate from Waterford to Birmingham. A wide range of European destinations are also offered on single transaction booking from Waterford via Birmingham. Waterford Airport is the location for a busy Irish Coast Guard base operating from a purpose built facility while the airport also has an active general aviation business.

Further information about services at Waterford Airport is available at www.flywaterford.com

[LTNman]

A thriving LTN-WAT service was killed off by Stobart by their decision to put pressure on Aer Arran to move services from Luton to Southend, which has backfired spectacularly and has now ended the London route.

It was inevitable that the Southend route was doomed to failure and Aer Arran’s attempt to rescue the London service by splitting it between 2 airports instead of ending the Southend service was ridicules.

[Barling Magna]

Hello LTNman. I'm not surprised at the closure of the Waterford route to SEN; it always seemed a bit ambitious. But I can't say that the Luton-Waterford service was thriving; pax numbers were declining during 2010 and into 2011.

Aer Arann has served its purpose for SEN and thanks to them for that.