MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.

[QF94]

Similarly, EK do fly from SYD to the West Coast of USA, just the long way around so QF would win that competition, but EK is still an alternative, just as CX and CSA are for that matter. Ultimately though QF can't compete, the product just isn't up to it.......

Praise Jebus,

Saying QANTAS can't compete is a bit of a folly. The figures for the year ending June 2011 show otherwise. Page 46 is the reference.

http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/investors/qantasDataBook2011.pdf

5,977,000 international passengers carried internationally must believe there is some product and service being offered.

QANTAS may only fly to 21 international destinations, but their load factors show 82.4% which contributed to the operating revenue of the company of $14.9 billion with a pre-tax profit of $552 million and after tax of $249 million. The earnings per share were 11c, up from 4.9c the previous year.

They codeshare with 26 other airlines to go to various destinations throughout Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, Canada, within the USA. Passengers will get to where they're going, not on a QANTAS plane, but as a QANTAS passenger.

My initial posting was to try and make light of how QANTAS International was allegedly losing $216 million a year. The figures don't add up. Even in the annual report, it doesn't illustrate how the international business is weighing down the rest of the company, other than it is costing $216 million.

There are people on this forum that seem to be anti-QANTAS, pro-management and delight in seeing QANTAS go offshore or even the demise of the company. I think it's these same people that were either retrenched from QANTAS at some stage, or possibly mistreated by them or were not able to make the grade in getting into QANTAS for whatever reason.

We have seen it with many other companies in the past. The corporate greed at the top in the name of being more cost effective for the business and its shareholders, send jobs offshore and hapily employ foreigners in place of their own. What's another Australian company to go offshore employing more foreigners?

[piston broke again]

IMHO, I think the whole RedQ deal will not be approved (as per article in aviation week, and AFR). QF 'apparently' have the shareholders on side at the moment but if this falls through, thats a massive waste of allocated resources in the short term. And where to from there?....

AJ, how about concentrating on the simplest of solutions. You fix the product, ie. buy some 777ER's to replace the ageing 74's - you only need 6-10 in the short term, (they would fit nicely on the DFW by the way in the short term until the 787's arrive), stop allocating all the resources to the orange cancer as you know they wouldn't turn a solid profit without the backing of QF, invest in QF international - why not a PER-LHR direct in the non-winter months in a 787 with a red tail on it? Reinstate the LHR slots to QF and watch the cash roll in come the london olympics. Turn over a new leaf with staff and say 'your jobs are safe' - boost morale immediately, people are willing to work, smiles on faces (including yours you smug *cough*), and everyone lives happily ever after. It aint that hard!!!

[V-Jet]

PB - Idiotic suggestion. I think you would have wasted less time explaining the value of a good forward defensive stroke to the cat..

'If you want to irritate people purely for pleasure, you must never push them too far. If you do this they will explode into anger, shouting, yelling, being abusive and thus releasing all the tensions and anger that we have helped build up. And we certainly don't want to do that. With a little care and attention it should be possible to keep those tensions built up inside them for weeks, or even months - maybe longer. Eventually you may possibly be able to induce a nervous break down, or maybe even actual damage to the brain itself. To avoid this happening, whatever you are doing to annoy, must be perceived to be completely normal ....'

sorry for the thread drift...

[piston broke again]

It must be late....V-J, put down the red wine, you've had waaay too much.. go to bed. I am.

[V-Jet]

My point was merely that you are wasting your time trying to explain how to improve a business run by an idiot. The idiot won't understand and you have wasted your time.

John Cleese, on balance, has more appropriate and worthwhile suggestions.

If only I could get my hands on a lock of Leprechaun hair then my plasticine models, chicken bones and candles would not have been purchased in vain.

Anyone read Discrepancy's magnificent tome in the Australian today? After being very, very fortunate with some outstanding support on 'that' flight, personally I would be more inclined to circumspection in my press outings....

[73to91]

DJ737 - You are 100% correct, of course QF competes with those other carriers.

QF94 you are correct as well but believe you cannot look at it by city pairs alone.

QF 94, you mentioned Malaysia, according to the stats MH flew 46,935 out of Oz in August how many of them were happy to wait 3, 4 or 8 hours for the KL / UK flight? I have tried to find the numbers without much luck but would it be 10%? That's not much and QF are happy with their sevices via BKK, HKG & SIN.

However, what if it was 50% heading to Europe? Do QF compete then? QF offers 2 destinations only and MH flies to the same 2, so yes they compete. MH also fly to Paris, Rome and Amsterdam.

Look at AMS. Say 100 pax fly from Oz to AMS p/w - QF do not fly there so, do they care? What if it was 10,000 p/w would QF want a piece of the action then? I'd say yes and therefore they do compete on the Oz / AMS route even if via LHR -it's only a few hours of inconvenience :rolleyes: flying via LHR isn't it?


Then next year QF throw more pax away by only offering 2 return flights p/d via SIN to LHR and 1 to FRA. With the extended stop overs in BKK and HKG that puts them in greater competition with the likes of Malaysian especially when the A380's services a chockers. :ok:

[ampclamp]

Last time I looked MAS fly from mel & syd twice daily at least once from brissy and also Adelaide.to KUL QF?? ... hellooooo

Its designed to fail by choosing to pull out of routes or not to expand anything with a roo on it or organised labour fixing or flying it.

[Mr Leslie Chow]

Should make for some great trips together.......

Cookies must be enabled | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/industrial-relations/hero-pilot-richard-de-crespigny-takes-sides-with-qantas-in-ir-war/story-fn59noo3-1226191973387)

Think there'll be a few guys that will be busy polishing the wheels of their suitcase at the end of a sector rather than beers at the pub.

When does the CP change hands?

[Anulus Filler]

Should make for some great trips together.......

Cookies must be enabled | The Australian

Think there'll be a few guys that will be busy polishing the wheels of their suitcase at the end of a sector rather than beers at the pub.

When does the CP change hands?


......Stockholm Syndrome

[stubby jumbo]

Good article in the todays SMH written by someone who KNOWS Asia and has reported from there for many,many years-Hamish Mc Donald.

Here is the bit-which we have been all been banging on about for months here:

Superb quality has to be the way Australia competes in Asia. Chase mass markets on cost, and we really will end up as Asia's trash.

Read more: The Q is for quality - not a quick buck (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/the-q-is-for-quality--not-a-quick-buck-20111111-1nbaf.html#ixzz1dRazetMb)

Spot on Hamish. :D

[DrPepz]

Thing is, Hamish McDonald of the SMH said that Scoot would be SQ's "premium airline". Also I don't think Lee Kuan Yew ever said in the 1970s that SIA should be like Qantas. Perhaps he should check his facts.

[TIMA9X]

But perhaps Joyce's biggest limitation is his own mindset, formed in the low-cost carrier market that expanded so dramatically in a merged and borderless Europe, and then here at Jetstar. Add the strike-breaking mentality of his chairman, who has a background in Rio Tinto coal mines and the KKR private equity and junk bond group, and you have a familiar syndrome of a management that sees solutions in ''smashing the culture''.
With a pre-tax profit up 46 per cent to $552 million, despite a claimed loss of $216 million on international fights, Qantas is far from the imminent basket case suggested by Joyce and Jetstar's chief executive, Bruce Buchanan.
Meanwhile, the Middle East competition - Emirates, Qatar, Etihad and Gulf airlines - is heading for a shakeout.
Joyce might do well to give Menadue a call. Of course, Qantas pilots, engineers and ground crews will have to concede some productivity gains, and the word is they are ready to do so. But they need to be taken into an Asian expansion, not left behind

Read more: The Q is for quality - not a quick buck (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/the-q-is-for-quality--not-a-quick-buck-20111111-1nbaf.html#ixzz1dSIvYcPq)
LC, his board and AJ are the wrong management team to front Qantas, that is for sure IMHO. As every day goes by, more and more mainstream journalists are beginning to see the light.

The question on everyone's lips. LC's plans are outdated, AJ is out of his depth in handling the IR issues, basically making things worse on a day to day basis.

LC & AJ are not good people managers, the major ingredient for a successful happy airline. Their Asian plans are vague at best, raising more questions than answers.:(

Hamish Mc Donald does know Asia well that's for sure.

[Race Bannon]

Mc Donald makes some very valid points.None more so than the highlighting of the loss of expertise Qantas has experienced since privatisation.
Once Strong and his coterie of short haul managers took over international it has been in decline.Strong had no skill or mind set to run an international operation.Most if not all of the experience has left Qantas and gone elsewhere.Borghetti is a prime example.He has achieved enormous changes at Virgin without alienating the bulk of his workforce.He knows how to manage change and take the workforce with him.As McDonald so rightly points out the current Qantas management wants to "smash the culture".They simply do not know how to manage change.Joyce has a narrow mindset and Clifford is nothing more than an aging Corporate bully driven by his own narcissism and inflated ego.
They have an agenda that does not bode well for Qantas Longevity

[Brian Abraham]

Mods I'll let you rule on the acceptability of this email doing the rounds.

A Irishman wants a job, but the foreman won't hire him until he passes a little math test.

Here is your first question, the foreman said. "Without using numbers, represent the number 9."

"Without numbers?" The Irishman says? "Dat is easy." And proceeds to draw three trees.

"What's this?" the boss asks.

"Have you ain't got no brain? Tree and tree plus tree makes 9" says the Irishman.

"Fair enough," says the boss. "Here's your second question. Use the same rules, but this time the number is 99."

The Irishman stares into space for a while, then picks up the picture that he has just drawn and makes a smudge on each tree... "Ere you go."

The boss scratches his head and says, "How on earth do you get that to represent 99?"

"Each of da trees is dirty now. So, it's dirty tree, and dirty tree, plus dirty tree. Dat makes 99."

The boss is getting worried that he's going to actually have to hire this Irishman, so he says, "All right, last question. Same rules again, but represent the number 100."

The Irishman stares into space some more, then he picks up the picture again and makes a little mark at the base of each tree and says, "Ere you go. One hundred."

The boss looks at the attempt. "You must be nuts if you think that represents a hundred!"

The Irishman leans forward and points to the marks at the base of each tree and whispers, "A little dog come along and poop by each tree. So now you got dirty tree and a turd, dirty tree and a turd, and dirty tree and a turd, which makes ONE HUNDRED!"

The Irishman is now head of Qantas

[Shark Patrol]

Brilliant!! :D :D :D

[QF94]

The joke is brilliant, but an unfortunate reality.

[QF94]

Joyce has a narrow mindset and Clifford is nothing more than an aging Corporate bully driven by his own narcissism and inflated ego.
They have an agenda that does not bode well for Qantas Longevity

Race Bannon,

The only way for QANTAS to move forward and actually prosper is to remove the board in its entirety. Strong has been there a long time and buggered QANTAS whe he headed the privatisation. Still the head of the remuneration committee allowing AJ's pay increase.

Just ridding QANTAS of AJ or LC is not enough. No real difference than Jackson and Dixon.

QANTAS needs QANTAS people in the board. Name one that wasn't a blow-in from a matey's club.

Although a former senior QANTAS executive is how heading Virgin Australia.

[Cargo744]

Are you all that stupid to realise that JB has the EASY decisions to make? He is a great guy but the decisions he now makes are easy compared to AJ. Wait till he has to make a game changing decision. You will all whinge and hate him. The predictabilitty of of the Prnue community is more certain than my fridge breaking down. Let the uninmformed vitrioil commence.

[Dixons Millions]

Oh, is that right? We are all stupid on this web site eh? Cargo, which bit don't you understand? Let me explain, so even someone of your intellect will get it:

Difficult decisions? AJ has had a difficult time recently running QF because of who and what he is ie the calibre of the man (and same for Board and Management), not because of the difficult issues QF faces. It's that simple....Oh, still don't get it? Then let me further explain:

If JB was now the QF chief, the decisions that clearly needed to be made to re-invigorate QF and its staff would be exceptionally easy for him, as you seem to think have been easy over at Virgin. We would now be in far brighter position, going head to head with our real competitors and not the staff. Investing in the premium product and people and not these ridiculous Asian fantasies that have absolutely no chance of success.

Game changing decision? You bet Cargo! It would all have changed in QF had JB got the gig, just as it has over at the Virgin. No industrial action, a pride in the product and a fierce competitiveness that would have seen QF once again the number one airline in the world. Now, there will not be a QF in 5 years

Decisions are not difficult if made by the correct person. AJ and Co. are not the right people, and so the decisions they face are made all the more difficult....

[my oleo is extended]

Virgins best move was to see Godfrey out the door.
Dixons Millions is spot on, QF need to punt AJ, LC and the entire board. Jimmy Bowtie has been lurking the halls since 1985, way too much time to ingrain oneself into the woodwork like a bad stain, time to go.

QF imploded when they lost Massimo and Storrie.:(

[SpannerTwister]

Are you all that stupid to realise that JB has the EASY decisions to make?
Mate.....I got up this morning, scratched my nuts, and put my pants on one leg at a time.

I bet 99% of the (male :) ) members here did just the same !!

I guess then, that makes me like 99% of PPruners :ok:.

So, if 99% of PPruners disagree with you, does that make them "stupid", or is it possible that YOU'RE the odd one out ?

Decisions aren't hard to make..........I'm guessing that LC & AJ had no trouble at all making the decision to lock out the staff :yuk: :yuk:

Maybe making a good decision is harder ?

ST

[Trent 972]

Quoted from Sunday Papers (my bolding)

Gillard says worse is to come
-Mark Kenny
-Hawaii

JULIA Gillard has used an international forum to deliver a tough message to Australia’s workforce: if you’re stressed by change, get over it because worse is to come and it may involve moving to another country.
And she has flagged that the days Australians working up to retirement and then stopping are also numbered as older employees are required to supplement retirement incomes with part-time work, well past the current age of 65 or even the planned retirement age of 67.
But there will be tax benefits to doing so.
Appearing at an APEC business leaders’ forum in Honolulu, Ms Gillard fielded questions on topics from the Qantas grounding — it was within the law but “extremist”; to in the workplace employers should not complain about lack of skilled employees while there is unemployment; the role of industrial relations Laws — they have not tilted too far towards unions; and the future of work as trade becomes more borderless.
She said the future workforce “will need to be a workforce that is highly adaptable, highly resilient because the pace of change will stress people’.
“I think it will be a workforce increasingly mobile, it will be more and more common for countries to have guest worker arrangements. It will be more and more common for people to choose to live part of their life in another nation, so more mobile but in all of that I stress again, we can’t forget the foundation skills,” she said.
And Ms Gillard had an uncompromising message to people seeking work in countries such as Australia.
“If you don’t have the ticket that gets you into the rest of the conversation, and that comes in the way of literacy and numeracy, then the rest of it will always be locked away from you,” she told the business leaders.

I take it FWA have now received their directions from the 'Great Leader'.

[Mr Leslie Chow]

"All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

[Cargo744]

Dixon's.

I didn't call all of the Pruners stupid.. read the post. JB is a great person (in person he is acceptional). I just want to make the point that his current decisions have been in favour of the employees. When he makes the hard decisions like letting people go or reducing their pay people like you will not be lauding him but calling him some sort of Nazi. You really need to grow up and live in the real world.

[neville_nobody]

if you’re stressed by change, get over it because worse is to come and it may involve moving to another country

What a bizarre thing for an Australia PM to say. She craps on about how much the Labor party has (supposedly) done creating Australian jobs and industry and then starts saying that people need to move overseas?

Most countries in our region have an excess labour problem and the last thing they want is Australians knocking on their doors looking for a job. Most countries and especially so in Aviation are very very parochial about employment in aviation. If QF gets off shored there are not going to be to many Australians working in it as they won't be able to justify the salaries. Life as a non citizen of any country is a VERY expensive exercise.

Second to all that what PM in their right mind thinks that it's ok to erode the tax base? If people heed her words and go overseas then who is going to pay tax in Australia?

[shon7]

he only way for QANTAS to move forward and actually prosper is to remove the board in its entirety.

and how exactly do you propose to do that?

[Dixons Millions]

I didn't call all of the Pruners stupid.. read the post.

Are you all that stupid to realise that JB has the EASY decisions to make?

Sounds like it to me Cargo...

You really need to grow up and live in the real world.

What world do you think we, the affected, live in bud? Probably about to be screwed royally by incompetents making bad/stupid decisions alongside a willing government.

Re read my previous post Cargo. More than once may I suggest...

[Cargo744]

DM

You live in a capatilst world the same as all of us... Do you not understand this?

Otherwise go live in China... Have fun with that

[V-Jet]

It came to me in a flash of brilliance during the engagement survey before last under the 'suggestions at the end' for better company performance etc etc.

Resignation and suicide of all senior management and board members I stated very clearly.

As it said in the preface all comments and feedback are treated very seriously and given a great deal of thought to.

I have no doubt in my mind that my comments have been discussed at the highest level (I can do nothing more than take my brilliant managers at their word) but naturally it will take time to implement successfully, as they have now had these items at the top of their 'to-do' list for almost three years, I have no doubt it will happen in the very near future.

I also made mention over the last 10 years or so of the shakespearian tragedy that Qf today is, and that personally I had innoculated myself against the incompetent fools managing the place, so I was OK. Further, there is (if you look in the right way with the correct squint) you can make out a grassy knoll opposite QCA. I firmly believe that when push comes to shove, THAT grassy knoll may well hold the keys to Qantas' future prosperity.

[Captain Gidday]

If Singapore Airlines could be as good as Qantas, it would be a success.
Actually, Dr Pepz, Mr Lee did say that [and Qantas used it in their PR for some years afterwards]. He said it in a context something like, if SQ's product is as good as Qantas, and SQ's costs are less, then inevitably SQ will do well. Guess he was right.
You also have to remember that Qantas materially assisted Malaysia Singapore Airlines with technical and management expertise to get established. MSA eventually split into Singapore Airlines And Malaysian Airlines, as the City State was not getting on with its next door neighbour in a number of areas.
So the cost differential thing has been going on for a very long time. Qantas has to figure out how they can again provide a product that people value and are prepared to pay a premium for. They had it figured once and it isn't too difficult. Maybe get the Singaporeans down for advice? :)
V-Jet. You are banned from DFW patterns, forthwith. No more getting ideas!

[73to91]

THE Qantas dispute is an example of bad business leadership :ok:


THE Qantas dispute is an example of bad business leadership, government frontbencher Bill Shorten says.

The assistant treasurer has called for a reframing on the industrial relations debate to examine good business leadership rather than putting workplace laws under the microscope.

And he has poured cold water on calls for the Fair Work Act to be amended to remove job security provisions from the bargaining process.

"If we want to analyse the Qantas dispute ... that was a failure of leadership within Qantas for the years leading up to the grounding of the airline to be able to convince its workforce about workplace change," Mr Shorten told Sky News.

"Too much of the political debate about industrial relations in Australia comes down to a debate about what is the right regulation."

Mr Shorten said business leadership should be on the agenda.

"We get the microscope out to look at the legislation, but when do we start talking about good leadership in Australia," he told Sky News today.

"By and large, enterprise bargaining proceeds pretty well in Australia."

Mr Shorten urged businesses to stop complaining about industrial relations laws and get on with it.

"The time to sort out enterprise agreements, if you want your workforce on a path to change, is the day after the conclusion of the previous agreement," he said.

"Then you work for the next 1100 days. You can't just roll up before an agreement and say we want changes to XYZ."

Asked whether corporate Australia would view Qantas chief Alan Joyce as a hero or a villain for taking drastic action to lock out his workforce and ground flights, Mr Shorten said it was probably a mixture.

"I think there'd be some Australian business leaders who might have a political view, say 'Good on him, he's shown he's tough'," Mr Shorten said.

"I think there'd be other people saying, `Surely there was a better way to do this'."

ACTU secretary Jeff Lawrence has described the Qantas grounding as an example of "employer militancy".

He told Sky News the unions had long held the view that bargaining over job security should be allowed.

"Issues about job security are important and I think it's absolutely appropriate bargaining takes place over those things," Mr Lawrence said.

Qantas dispute leadership failure - Shorten | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/qantas-dispute-leadership-failure-shorten/story-fn7j19iv-1226193792739)

[Keg]

Is the 'new spirit' campaign really necessary or was there nothing wrong with the 'old spirit' until it was destroyed by Dixon, Joyce, Clifford et al?

As part of a school assignment a child was asked to create a one page newspaper advertisement.

Without any input from his Dad (a Qantas pilot) he came up with the following advertisement for Qantas.

http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j419/Keg767/JamesQantasAd.jpg

It reads:

"Because when machines fail....... we don't."

"At Qantas, we understand that your family is the most important thing to you. That's why we only entrust them to The Best".

Personally I reckon this is a better ad for Qantas than much of the recent 'new spirit' stuff with kids on beaches, deck chairs, etc.

[Hugh Jarse]

Bill Shorten. Was he the **** kicker hack trying to capitalise on those two blokes trapped in the mine in Tassie a few years ago?

Yes, he was.

The problem with the EBA system is that it is biased in favour of the employer. Liken it, if you will to a game of strip poker.

Every EBA, you go back to the table with your log of claims. Every time, your employer wants another piece of your clothing, just for you to keep up with the CPI (in QF's case). Plus a bit more. Why would you give up ANYTHING just for CPI?

Mrs. Jarse gets about 6% every year, for no tradeoff, and she isn't under an EBA.

Soon enough (after 7 or 8 EBA's) you're sitting at the table in your undies, with no more left to give for just the CPI.

AJ says "We'll take those, thanks". And we end up where we are today with QF pilots. A fatally flawed industrial system bought in by the Labor government.

Screw you Bill Shorten, and screw this stupid EBA system.

[Arnold E]

Mrs. Jarse gets about 6% every year, for no tradeoff, and she isn't under an EBA.

Hmmm, would that be a government job perhaps???

[Hugh Jarse]

No, Arnold.

She works in private enterprise (a geotechnics company). There are no EBA's in her company.

They do realistic reviews of staff performance each year around October. She takes on minimal extra tasks each year, and gives up nothing from her existing conditions to achieve the pay rise.

This is how it was for all employees before that dick head Hawke had his way in the early 90's.

[ACT Crusader]

Bill Shorten. Was he the **** kicker hack trying to capitalise on those two blokes trapped in the mine in Tassie a few years ago?

Yes, he was.

The problem with the EBA system is that it is biased in favour of the employer. Liken it, if you will to a game of strip poker.

Every EBA, you go back to the table with your log of claims. Every time, your employer wants another piece of your clothing, just for you to keep up with the CPI (in QF's case). Plus a bit more. Why would you give up ANYTHING just for CPI?

Mrs. Jarse gets about 6% every year, for no tradeoff, and she isn't under an EBA.

Soon enough (after 7 or 8 EBA's) you're sitting at the table in your undies, with no more left to give for just the CPI.

AJ says "We'll take those, thanks". And we end up where we are today with QF pilots. A fatally flawed industrial system bought in by the Labor government.

Screw you Bill Shorten, and screw this stupid EBA system.

I understand your analogy Hugh, but you mention the pilots and their EBA situation. Their current EBA is one of the more complex and lengthy IR documents I have ever laid my eyes on. There's still a hell of a lot of layers of clothing on that one....

[gobbledock]

V-Jet, shame on you for stealing my fantasy!!

Hugh Jarse, spot on, EBA's are a crock, they are like a glitter coated turd, once the layer of glitter wears off it is ****e underneath. The worker always gets screwed with an EBA, there is always a trade off, somewhere, something, somehow, fact.
Management give with one hand and take back with two hands. I have not seen an EBA or equivalent in my airline since 98 where the final outcome of the bargaining ends up favorable for the workforce in the long term.

[Romulus]

Bill Shorten. Was he the **** kicker hack trying to capitalise on those two blokes trapped in the mine in Tassie a few years ago?

What did he do for the guys when Ansett went under?

[VR-HFX]

Keg

I think that is the best ad for the Rat I have seen in a long while...:ok:

Just shows that we should probably put a 12 yo in charge of the company.

As the AJ/BB vision of tapping the Asian pot of gold. They and their boards are totally delusional. Whatever they conjure up is Air Asia/ SQ/ CX road kill.

The legacies in Asia will just allocate enough of their capacity at prices appropriate to kill them off.

As to the FarQ mirage, there is already enough exec jet capacity in the region to kill it before it gets off the ground and Tony has just added the icing on the cake.

The sooner we Australians realise we have nothing to offer the sooner we can get back to turning the Rat into the great airline it was and can be again.

Distractions are the smoke screen of those who have neither the ability or intestinal fortitude to play the hand they are dealt.

Sadly the Rat is now in the hands of Rentokil.

[Capn Bloggs]

EBAs verses AWAs. Hmmm.

[Arnold E]

This is how it was for all employees before that dick head Hawke had his way in the early 90's.

That is simply not true, it most certainly did not happen like that in any company I worked in in the 60's, 70's 80's or 90's.

[KRUSTY 34]

I sat in on my first EBA back in '98, and I can tell you Hugh's analogy is spot on. At the time I naively thought we would first settle the company commitment to make-up for the 2 year pay freeze we gave them (due to losses incurred because of poor management decisions), then automatically increase wages in line with CPI, and then talk about productivity. How wrong I was. What I saw was 12 months of company industrial thuggery (they would justify it as simply playing "hard ball").

At the time we were in a weakened state due to circumstances beyond our control, and then as well as later on they ruthlessly took advantage of us in their never ending quest to cut wages and conditions. Do you know why? Because it's easier than doing their jobs!

I have no particular affection for the EBA system, but what's the alternative? If IR laws can be tightened to truly compell employers to bargain in good faith, and I mean truly, then maybe some good may come of it. One thing's for sure, they'll never do it off their own bat, of that I am totally convinced.

[Sunfish]

I think you will find that "Good Faith" is going to be redefined by amendment to the act. It is quite clear from the comments here that QF have not been doing anything in good faith.

At some point this will come back to bite them, but that is cold comfort for you.

[33 Disengage]

Arnold - Were you involved in performance reviews for your paper run in the 60's, or does something else not add up in your claims?

[Arnold E]

Arnold - Were you involved in performance reviews for your paper run in the 60's, or does something else not add up in your claims?

Have a look at my age, I started my apprenticeship on Jan 12th 1966.
Also note that on another thread as an apprentice in 1969, we were the first group of apprentices in Australia to take industrial action and walk out the door. ( industrial action by apprentices in those days was illegal )

[gobbledock]

Have a look at my age, I started my apprenticeship on Jan 12th 1966.
Also note that on another thread as an apprentice in 1969, we were the first group of apprentices in Australia to take industrial action and walk out the door. ( industrial action by apprentices in those days was illegal )
Arnie, I often have a chuckle at your posts mate, and I mean that in a nice way. You (and I are old school to varying degrees), and it is interesting to see the changes over the past few decades. The old days of walking out and holding the company to ransom are long gone, and realistically from a business perspective fair enough. However by the same token businesses today hang a noose around the employee's neck and can legally tighten it under the current rules. Where is the balance?

The issue is that there are two sides to each story, and in today's climate a balance is necessary between production and profitability. My gripe is that 'enterprise bargaining' and associated terms are farcicle, there is no balance, and the cards are always stacked in favour of the corporate noose holder.

The best way to boost productivity and profitability is through profit share. It is a relatively easy concept that basically means everybody gets to eat a slice of the profit cake. Southwest as an example mastered this, as have many other businesses. Herb Kelleher worked out how to engage his workforce - share the money !! And let's be brutally honest, money is the motivating factor for the absolute majority in going to work, from the sweeper to the CEO.
Unions are paramount as there is no other protection for the worker against a tyranical management team. Yet the management team should be able to make the hard decisions that may legitimately affect the workforce and not be held to ransom as a result of making those tough decisions.
But it takes a management team who are not egotistical and are not narcissistic to accomplish this, sadly many of these executives would rather bankrupt a company rather than see the humble sh#t kicker duly rewarded for going above and beyond. 'Dick swinging' competitions are what drive these greedy execs in today's environment, so how do you change that mindset?
Even without profit share you can see an amzing 'about face' within a workforce when you see how Fyfe and Borghetti manage the workforce. Although Virgin and ANZ may not be perfect, you can see the connection from the top filtering down to the bottom, isn't that enough evidence that a workforce's culture will be a relfection of the profile of top management?
So Arnie, how do we find or achieve a balance or that magical line that sits fairly and squarely in the middle of the sand? Good question, but a starting point would be the word bargaining, in the true sense of the word.

[Arnold E]

I agree with most, if not all, of what you say, in the past it was not necessary to walk out the door on every employer. In fact it is not necessary today with every employer. My current employer is one that is very fair and reasonable and pays his people well, but, not every employer is like that, either today or in the past. QANTAS is a perfect example of the opposite of my current employer. IMHO people should not just give up because its too hard or "somebody " says times have changed. Its not likely, but if I found myself back in a position where my employer was carring on like Q, I would not just lay down and play doggo.

[73to91]

Qantas won’t budge, say unions

Three unions say they making little headway in talks with Qantas, as the countdown continues towards possible arbitration of new enterprise agreements.
Qantas won't budge, say unions (http://afr.com/p/national/qantas_won_budge_say_unions_0huiKDfhsE7l3C2n8sDDHI)

[QF94]

Qantas won’t budge, say unions

Three unions say they making little headway in talks with Qantas, as the countdown continues towards possible arbitration of new enterprise agreements.
Qantas won't budge, say unions (http://afr.com/p/national/qantas_won_budge_say_unions_0huiKDfhsE7l3C2n8sDDHI)


This is because this is the outcome AJ and Co want. They want arbitration, as they know that FWA doesn't have the kahunas to implement what should be done, and the government doesn't want to upset the big end of town.

[Cunning_Stunt]

kahunas????. I think you mean cojones there fella.

[Capt Claret]

I possess no inside knowledge, nor expertise in the area but wouldn't be surpassed if there was behind the scenes pressure/influence on FWA to lean to the worker's side of the claims, simply because of Government anger at the tricks played by Joyce & Qantas WRT the grounding, and the lack of communication to the Government.

[Hugh Jarse]

That is simply not true, it most certainly did not happen like that in any company I worked in in the 60's, 70's 80's or 90's
Actually, it generally is true, Arnold.

The majority of Australia's ordinary workers were covered (and many still are) by the award system. State or federal. Remember that, Arnold? I certainly do. If you were a trades person, then odds on you were on an award prior to Labor's introduction of EBA's. I started working in 1976, and have always been covered by one award or other until my first airline job in 1994.

I stand by my analogy. EBA's are fundamentally a flawed process, particularly in Qantas' case. How else can it be, when you have to sacrifice hard-earned conditions for CPI or even less? CPI should be given as a cornerstone to any EBA. Conditions are a finite source to sacrifice or negotiate. Sooner or later you are playing that strip poker game, sittin' at the table in your undies... and still only getting CPI.

[ACT Crusader]

CPI should be given as a cornerstone to any EBA


Hugh, why do you believe that should be the case?

What legal or moral responsibility should an employer be under to continually pay at minimum CPI increases when CPI ultimately sits outside the control of an enterprise?

Essentially your proposal is to mandate a minimum level of increase.

[Torres]

....but wouldn't be surpassed if there was behind the scenes pressure/influence on FWA to lean to the worker's side of the claims, simply because of Government anger at the tricks played by Joyce & Qantas WRT the grounding, and the lack of communication to the Government.

Especially as the Victorian medical authority are considering the same flaw in the FWA legislation to hobble the Victorian nurses!

The majority of Australia's ordinary workers were covered (and many still are) by the award system. State or federal.

Jarse. It was fundamental to Australia's pre AWA industrial legislation that every worker in Australia was covered by an Award. All workers are still covered by an Award except those exempt by virtue of a registered EBA, which must pass the no disadvantage test.

[Shark Patrol]

ACT Crusader,

Maybe if management also only got a CPI increase, every company would have more than enough money to pay a CPI increase to their workers (and then some).

But you wouldn't support anything that disadvantages management would you? Are you one of Qantas's social media consultants? If so, tell your boss that he's a scumb*g.

[Oakape]

The basic reason for working is to be able to live. You know, feed, clothe, educate yourself & your family; & also to put a roof over the everyone's head.

If you don't get CPI you are taking a pay cut every year. At the very least you need CPI on basic items such as food, housing, education, medical & clothing.

If you take a pay cut every year, even with surplus salary to begin with, you will end up with a reduction in the standard of living and, taken to the extreme, end up on the street living on food stamps.

But who cares - right?!!!

[ACT Crusader]

ACT Crusader,

Maybe if management also only got a CPI increase, every company would have more than enough money to pay a CPI increase to their workers (and then some).

But you wouldn't support anything that disadvantages management would you? Are you one of Qantas's social media consultants? If so, tell your boss that he's a scumb*g.

Shark patrol why are you making a personal accusation. I genuinely wanted to know why Hugh thought that. I wasnt making a value judgement and there was nothing sinister.

What's your definition of "management" because there are plenty of salaried middle managers that don't see yearly pay increases and are on moderate (60-80k) wages.

If you are referring to executive remuneration. Well that's a completely different story because alot of high profile CEOs for example, are appointments and are not by definition employees and are more like contractors.

[clotted]

Crusader,
In following your posts I thought you were just another sympathiser but I have grown to the view that you have broader view than that and unlike a lot of the posters here you have a deeper understanding of FWA, industrial process and how it may all fit together.
When one of the sympathisers comes out and accuses you of being a company stooge it probably says it all in that "if you are not with us that must mean you are against us and therefore everything you say is rubbish".
Pilots never miss an opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot..... both feet if they get sufficient opportunity.

[clotted]

The basic reason for working is to be able to live. You know, feed, clothe, educate yourself & your family; & also to put a roof over the everyone's head.

If you don't get CPI you are taking a pay cut every year. At the very least you need CPI on basic items such as food, housing, education, medical & clothing.

If you take a pay cut every year, even with surplus salary to begin with, you will end up with a reduction in the standard of living and, taken to the extreme, end up on the street living on food stamps.Oakape:
Great theory but in practice in the Australian industrial world it is not an entitlement and in reality it is quite the opposite. If you can negotiate it and it equals CPI then that is your good fortune.
If you think it is an entitlement you are about 30 years too late.

[Tankengine]

clotted,
fine coming from a 65 year old from Canberra.:hmm:

[Trent 972]

This thread is a lot easier to read when you 'ignore' clotted and ACT Crusader and the others trolls like Ken B etc. whom I have no doubt are in the employ of the Big Q as Social Media commentators.
No point in replying boys, 'cause to me you are -'ignored'

[DutchRoll]

Great theory but in practice in the Australian industrial world it is not an entitlement

Unfortunately this is technically quite correct.

and in reality it is quite the opposite.

But here clotted swerves randomly off the road and lets loose some gobbledegook which sounds authoritative but makes no sense whatsoever. It is the opposite of an entitlement? So Australian employees are ineligible for or barred from achieving a CPI pay rise? I don't think so.

If you can negotiate it and it equals CPI then that is your good fortune.

Ah, now clotted swerves randomly back towards something a little more reasonable. Of course, having a recalcitrant employer who is insincere in negotiating EBAs and who places very little (if any) value on his own employees adds to the negotiating difficulty. But that's part of the rich tapestry of the world we live in I guess. Sometimes you get lucky and have an employer you can establish a good working relationship with, and sometimes you don't.

[ACT Crusader]

This thread is a lot easier to read when you 'ignore' clotted and ACT Crusader and the others trolls like Ken B etc. whom I have no doubt are in the employ of the Big Q as Social Media commentators.
No point in replying boys, 'cause to me you are -'ignored'

To me this thread would read alot better without the personal accusations of "trolls". I would be interested in what posts I've been trolling?

As Dutchroll points out the reality is (for better or worse depending where you sit in "negotiations") is that CPI increases are not a given. Enterprise level "bargaining" under legislation since the early 90s has not mandated minimum wage increases.

I'm not here to take sides, be a 'troll' or 'sympathizer', I've visited this forum for many years and started posting this year given the industrial situation at hand. Feel free to go back and look at any of my posts and see if a "troll" is at work

[ampclamp]

Dutch roll . The thing that amazes me is that Qf encourages poor relations with their staff.
The FWA process seems to make it even worse.:ugh:

QF remains highly unionised partly as a legacy of former govt ownership but more so now because people feel the need to belong to afford a modicum of protection.

I truly believe QF could to a degree disarm the unions by engendering real working relationships and offering a seat at the decision making table.
There is no trust and no working relationship.
It is a very sad state of affairs.:sad:

LC has stated it is one thing to win the war but another altogether to win the peace. Very true but...
Frankly that is impossible with the current executives in place and their attitude toward staff relations.

Even if the workers have their backsides walloped at FWA or conciliation , I cannot see change until there is real change at the top end.
They have gone too far.:sad:

[QF94]

LC has stated it is one thing to win the war but another altogether to win the peace. Very true but...
Frankly that is impossible with the current executives in place and their attitude toward staff relations.

Even if the workers have their backsides walloped at FWA or conciliation , I cannot see change until there is real change at the top end.
They have gone too far.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

Unfortunately, if us workers get our backsides walloped at FWA conciliation, there will be change, but not at the top end. It will be the workers who will be made redundant and the work shipped offshore.

I have stated before, that you cannot only get rid of AJ or LC. It has to be all twelve board members. Most of them were there to oversee the last failed sale of QANTAS.

It was also asked how would it be proposed to remove the board of QANTAS. As the major shareholders will not have a bar of that, QANTAS would have to be re-nationalised, the board ejected by the government, and the government take control of and run the company until it can be stabilised again. Look at Air NZ when Ansett collapsed. The government bailed them out, and still has a stake in it, and it has turned around.

With the current government in place that is more than likely to not happen, but in order to save what's left of QANTAS, it needs to happen.

For QANTAS to lose this battle (I separate QANTAS from the board, as they are hell-bent on destroying it), it will be a major loss to Australia. Not just QANTAS jobs, but Australian jobs generally. If a company can lock out its staff at a whim, and it becomes an accepted practice, then be prepared for the wave of boards of companies holding the workers and the country to ransom to benefit their bottom line and terms and conditions.

[Sunfish]

Unfortunately possums, Qantas is about to be overtaken by events with tragic results.

I am watching European bond rates. Greece Italy and Spain will not be able to recover through "Austerity" because the depression this causes will impact their tax revenues - making their problems worse.

The Euro is in its death throws unless the European Central Bank becomes a lender of last resort and starts printing money - which the Germans most likely won't allow because they see Economics as a morality play - which it ain't.

This will most likely trigger a global depression and China isn't going to save us. As a trading nation Australia will suffer and I expect the Australian dollar to fall a long way.

The folly of Qantas having maintenance done overseas where it has to be paid for in an earned foreign currency will then become apparent, just as the folly of relying on overseas supply chains already is. The "Asian Strategy" will also have to be jettisoned.

Read Paul Krugmans blog and this guy, if you have the stomach for it.


Italian default scenarios « naked capitalism (http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/11/italian-default-scenarios.html)

[breakfastburrito]

Sunfish, expect to see the term "SDR* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Drawing_Rights)" enter the vernacular in the not too distant future...


* Money printing by a fancy name.

[ampclamp]

Paying tax in Greece is optional sunny. Spain and Italy have debts too big to bail out. But at least they produce stuff compared to Greece. Way off topic so I'll shut up now. Euro zone and the European Union is going to be ugly for a long time.:sad:

[brodle]

As Dutchroll points out the reality is (for better or worse depending where you sit in "negotiations") is that CPI increases are not a given. Enterprise level "bargaining" under legislation since the early 90s has not mandated minimum wage increases.


ACT, I understand your point and don't disagree that CPI increases are not a given.

However, unless the agenda is the 'real' reduction of western wages (which it most likely is) then logically (and I believe, morally) CPI wage increases should be a given.

If my wage was denominated in gold or 'X' number of loaves of bread then I would get the same every year. As I am paid in a depreciating fiat currency I need my wage to increase (or decrease if deflation be the case) to continue to receive the same wage in gold or 'X' number of loaves of bread. If this is not the case I am taking a wage cut every year.

To turn the argument around (to where I perceive your interests to lay) would be to say that a company should not be allowed to increase the price of its product unless it can show an improvement in the quality or utility of the product.

Just because something is 'just the way it is' does not make it ethically (a foreign term for many large businesses today) right.

[Capn Bloggs]

To keep pace with inflation, one needs CPI+the tax take.

[illusion]

The average Australian wage is now over $68K

[breakfastburrito]

If my wage was denominated in gold or 'X' number of loaves of bread then I would get the same every year. As I am paid in a depreciating fiat currency I need my wage to increase (or decrease if deflation be the case) to continue to receive the same wage in gold or 'X' number of loaves of bread. If this is not the case I am taking a wage cut every year.

To turn the argument around (to where I perceive your interests to lay) would be to say that a company should not be allowed to increase the price of its product unless it can show an improvement in the quality or utility of the product.

Just because something is 'just the way it is' does not make it ethically (a foreign term for many large businesses today) right.




To keep pace with inflation, one needs CPI+the tax take.


Bravo brodle & Bloggs - you get it. Inflation is a HIDDEN TAX, levied in an arbitrary and indiscriminate way. It is what governments have always done when the wage slaves refuse to pay more tax. This is the dirty little secret, that until recently had been understood by a small group in the know, at the expense of everyone else.

Two quotes demonstrate this better than I can:


Lenin is said to have declared that the best way to destroy the capitalist system was to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation, governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. By this method they not only confiscate, but they confiscate arbitrarily; and, while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some. The sight of this arbitrary rearrangement of riches strikes not only at security, but at confidence in the equity of the existing distribution of wealth.

Those to whom the system brings windfalls, beyond their deserts and even beyond their expectations or desires, become 'profiteers,' who are the object of the hatred of the bourgeoisie, whom the inflationism has impoverished, not less than of the proletariat. As the inflation proceeds and the real value of the currency fluctuates wildly from month to month, all permanent relations between debtors and creditors, which form the ultimate foundation of capitalism, become so utterly disordered as to be almost meaningless; and the process of wealth-getting degenerates into a gamble and a lottery.

Lenin was certainly right. There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose.
The Economic Consequences of the Peace (1919), Chapter VI, pg.235-236

Wallich explained that inflation "is technically an economic problem. I mean the breakdown of our standards of measuring economic values, as a consequence of inflation." The strong are smart enough to understand that inflation "introduces an element of deceit into our economic dealings." Contracts are no longer made to "be kept in terms of constant values," but one party understands this better than the other.
Chairman Greenspan: A Fiat Mind for a Fiat Age (http://mises.org/daily/4472): Henry C Wallice Federal Reserve Board member, 1970's

[gobbledock]

The below is an interesting interview:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/china-news/chinese-tv-host-says-regime-nearly-bankrupt-141214.html (http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/china-news/chinese-tv-host-says-regime-nearly-bankrupt-141214.html)

Let's just say hypothetically if this was to be true, what would the effect be on Little Alan's grand plan's?
I think Sunfish and Burrito know the answer already.

I also noted a brief reference by Cactusjack on another thread, something about Warren Buffet. Buffet is a really interesting character, very astute and a little off the cuff. I once read a comment by him that went something along the lines of 'every year or two I get bored, look at buying airline shares, and then wait for my advisers to wake me up and remind me what a waste of an investment they are'.
End game with QF's foray into China? Who know's for sure, but all the signals are there that this is not going to end well.

Burrito, good reference to JMK, he was well ahead of his time.
Inflation is a hidden tax, a sneaky one that is insidious and sneaks up on you with you realising it. Inflation also drives things like produce costs, so for example, have you ever said something like -
'I used to spend $250.00 per week on shopping, now I am spending $300.00 per week and the trolley still isn't full'. That in part is the sneakiness of inflation. The big problem with Governments is that they try to print more money to offset debt. But each time the printing press fires up, the addititional paper devalues the dollar value plus it inflates the economy. Printing is a temporary solution, it buys a little bit of time, but the end result is inevitable, and that result is what you are seeing now in the USA, Greece and Italy. It catches you in the end.

[breakfastburrito]

Good link GD. I wonder if Alan & Bruce have been sitting up nights poring over Wikileaks cables. I'm sure they caught this one, but just in case they missed it.

Thursday, 15 March 2007, 10:24
C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 04 BEIJING 001760
SIPDIS
SIPDIS
EO 12958 DECL: 03/15/2032
TAGS PGOV, PREL, ECON, SOCI, CH
SUBJECT: FIFTH GENERATION STAR LI KEQIANG DISCUSSES
DOMESTIC CHALLENGES, TRADE RELATIONS WITH AMBASSADOR
REF: SHENYANG 26
Classified By: Ambassador Clark T. Randt, Jr. Reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).



4. (C) GDP figures are "man-made" and therefore unreliable, Li said. When evaluating Liaoning's economy, he focuses on three figures: 1) electricity consumption, which was up 10 percent in Liaoning last year; 2) volume of rail cargo, which is fairly accurate because fees are charged for each unit of weight; and 3) amount of loans disbursed, which also tends to be accurate given the interest fees charged. By looking at these three figures, Li said he can measure with relative accuracy the speed of economic growth. All other figures, especially GDP statistics, are "for reference only," he said smiling.

US embassy cables: Rising star of Chinese communist party reveals personal crusade against corruption | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/100498)

[ACT Crusader]

ACT, I understand your point and don't disagree that CPI increases are not a given.

However, unless the agenda is the 'real' reduction of western wages (which it most likely is) then logically (and I believe, morally) CPI wage increases should be a given.

If my wage was denominated in gold or 'X' number of loaves of bread then I would get the same every year. As I am paid in a depreciating fiat currency I need my wage to increase (or decrease if deflation be the case) to continue to receive the same wage in gold or 'X' number of loaves of bread. If this is not the case I am taking a wage cut every year.

To turn the argument around (to where I perceive your interests to lay) would be to say that a company should not be allowed to increase the price of its product unless it can show an improvement in the quality or utility of the product.

Just because something is 'just the way it is' does not make it ethically (a foreign term for many large businesses today) right.


Brodle - I agree with you about the economics of wage increases as you have outlined. However unless there is an intrinsic regulatory link between prices and wages, then employers are basically left to their own devices on what they "agree" to increase pay by. If there is no requirement to incorporate in enterprise bargaining, taxation levels, inflation/deflation rates, "cost of living" then the only obligation is to "obey the law" (ie don't pay less than the award). The notion of the enterprise is what stands foremost in the IR system around bargaining (the balanced fair system that governments have argued over the years is far from accurate).

The "real wages" debate of the past 20 years has been a real misnomer. Since the inception of enterprise level bargaining the notion of real wage increases has been used to demonstrate that employees have "benefited" from the shift from centralised to decentralised. But we know this is a very simplistic view as the concept of real wage increases incorporates far more than the 3% p.a that employer X might agree to pay - taxation, CPI levels.

[breakfastburrito]

ACT Crusader, this assumes the CPI is correct and reflect actual price changes. A lot of work has been done in the US on this by John Williams of shadowstats.com. He "unwinds" changes to the CPI calculations and publishes them as the SGS (Shadow Government Statistics) Alternate measures. Whilst US centric, similar modifications are done by the ABS, so there is every reason to believe that our figures also understate inflation (and also overstate GDP growth, as the GDP is deflated by the CPI).

If Williams contention is correct in Australia, then, the effect of a bare CPI increase + bracket creep means that real wages have actually declined markedly over the last 20 years. It also implies that GDP growth ex-mining has probably negative for at least a decade. There is no reason doubt this process is occurs here too.

Here's the US chart of SGS vs CPI (CPI-U):

http://www.shadowstats.com/imgs/sgs-cpi.gif?hl=ad&t=

Here's his Primer on Government Stats (http://www.shadowstats.com/article/consumer_price_index)

Consumer Price Index

October 1st, 2004

"GOVERNMENT ECONOMIC REPORTS: THINGS YOU'VE SUSPECTED BUT WERE AFRAID TO ASK!"

A Series Authored by Walter J. "John" Williams

"The Consumer Price Index" (Part Four in a Series of Five)

October 1, 2006 Update

(September 22, 2004 Original)

_____


Foreword

This installment has been updated from the original 2004 version to incorporate additional research on earlier changes to the CPI. The source for most of the information in this installment is the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which generally has been very open about its methodologies and changes to same. The BLS Web site: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov) contains descriptions of the CPI and its related methodologies. Other sources include my own analyses of the CPI data and methodological changes over the last 30 years as well as interviews with individuals involved in inflation reporting.
______


Payments to Social Security Recipients Should be Double Current Levels

Inflation, as reported by the Consumer Price Index (CPI) is understated by roughly 7% per year. This is due to recent redefinitions of the series as well as to flawed methodologies, particularly adjustments to price measures for quality changes. The concentration of this installment on the quality of government economic reports will be first on CPI series redefinition and the damages done to those dependent on accurate cost-of-living estimates, and on pending further redefinition and economic damage.

The CPI was designed to help businesses, individuals and the government adjust their financial planning and considerations for the impact of inflation. The CPI worked reasonably well for those purposes into the early-1980s. In recent decades, however, the reporting system increasingly succumbed to pressures from miscreant politicians, who were and are intent upon stealing income from social security recipients, without ever taking the issue of reduced entitlement payments before the public or Congress for approval.

In particular, changes made in CPI methodology during the Clinton Administration understated inflation significantly, and, through a cumulative effect with earlier changes that began in the late-Carter and early Reagan Administrations have reduced current social security payments by roughly half from where they would have been otherwise. That means Social Security checks today would be about double had the various changes not been made. In like manner, anyone involved in commerce, who relies on receiving payments adjusted for the CPI, has been similarly damaged. On the other side, if you are making payments based on the CPI (i.e., the federal government), you are making out like a bandit.

In the original version of this background article, I noted that Social Security payments should 43% higher, but that was back in September 2004 and only adjusted for CPI changes that took place after 1993. The current estimate adjusts for methodology gimmicks introduced since 1980.

Elements of the Consumer Price Index (CPI) had their roots in the mid-1880s, when the Bureau of Labor, later known as the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), was asked by Congress to measure the impact of new tariffs on prices. It was another three decades, however, before price indices would be combined into something resembling today's CPI, a measure used then for setting wage increases for World War I shipbuilders. Although published regularly since 1921, the CPI did not come into broad acceptance and use until after World War II, when it was included in auto union contracts as a cost-of-living adjustment for wages.

The CPI found its way not only into other union agreements, but also into most commercial contracts that required consideration of cost/price changes or inflation. The CPI also was used to adjust Social Security payments annually for changes in the cost of living, and therein lay the eventual downfall to the credibility of CPI reporting.

Let Them Eat Hamburger

In the early 1990s, press reports began surfacing as to how the CPI really was significantly overstating inflation. If only the CPI inflation rate could be reduced, it was argued, then entitlements, such as social security, would not increase as much each year, and that would help to bring the budget deficit under control. Behind this movement were financial luminaries Michael Boskin, then chief economist to the first Bush Administration, and Alan Greenspan, Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System.

Although the ensuing political furor killed consideration of Congressionally mandated changes in the CPI, the BLS quietly stepped forward and began changing the system, anyway, early in the Clinton Administration.

Up until the Boskin/Greenspan agendum surfaced, the CPI was measured using the costs of a fixed basket of goods, a fairly simple and straightforward concept. The identical basket of goods would be priced at prevailing market costs for each period, and the period-to-period change in the cost of that market basket represented the rate of inflation in terms of maintaining a constant standard of living.

The Boskin/Greenspan argument was that when steak got too expensive, the consumer would substitute hamburger for the steak, and that the inflation measure should reflect the costs tied to buying hamburger versus steak, instead of steak versus steak. Of course, replacing hamburger for steak in the calculations would reduce the inflation rate, but it represented the rate of inflation in terms of maintaining a declining standard of living. Cost of living was being replaced by the cost of survival. The old system told you how much you had to increase your income in order to keep buying steak. The new system promised you hamburger, and then dog food, perhaps, after that.

The Boskin/Greenspan concept violated the intent and common usage of the inflation index. The CPI was considered sacrosanct within the Department of Labor, given the number of contractual relationships that were anchored to it. The CPI was one number that never was to be revised, given its widespread usage.

Shortly after Clinton took control of the White House, however, attitudes changed. The BLS initially did not institute a new CPI measurement using a variable-basket of goods that allowed substitution of hamburger for steak, but rather tried to approximate the effect by changing the weighting of goods in the CPI fixed basket. Over a period of several years, straight arithmetic weighting of the CPI components was shifted to a geometric weighting. The Boskin/Greenspan benefit of a geometric weighting was that it automatically gave a lower weighting to CPI components that were rising in price, and a higher weighting to those items dropping in price.

Once the system had been shifted fully to geometric weighting, the net effect was to reduce reported CPI on an annual, or year-over-year basis, by 2.7% from what it would have been based on the traditional weighting methodology. The results have been dramatic. The compounding effect since the early-1990s has reduced annual cost of living adjustments in social security by more than a third.

The BLS publishes estimates of the effects of major methodological changes over time on the reported inflation rate (see the "Reporting Focus" section of the October 2005 Shadow Government Statistics newsletter -- available to the public in the Archives of Shadow Government Statistics : Home Page (http://www.shadowstats.com)). Changes estimated by the BLS show roughly a 4% understatement in current annual CPI inflation versus what would have been reported using the original methodology. Adding the roughly 3% lost to geometric weighting -- most of which not included in the BLS estimates -- takes the current total CPI understatement to roughly 7%.

There now are three major CPI measures published by the BLS, CPI for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U), CPI for Urban Wage Earners and Clerical Workers (CPI-W) and the Chained CPI-U (C-CPI-U). The CPI-U is the popularly followed inflation measure reported in the financial media. It was introduced in 1978 as a more-broadly-based version of the then existing CPI, which was renamed CPI-W. The CPI-W is used in calculating Social Security benefits. These two series tend to move together and are based on frequent price sampling, which is supposed to yield something close to an average monthly price measure by component.

The C-CPI-U was introduced during the second Bush Administration as an alternate CPI measure. Unlike the theoretical approximation of geometric weighting to a variable, substitution-prone market basket, the C-CPI-U is a direct measure of the substitution effect. The difference in reporting is that August 2006 year-to-year inflation rates for the CPI-U and the C-CPI-U were 3.8% and 3.4%, respectively. Hence current inflation still has a 0.4% notch to be taken out of it through methodological manipulation. The C-CPI-U would not have been introduced unless there were plans to replace the current series, eventually.

Traditional inflation rates can be estimated by adding 7.0% to the CPI-U annual growth rate (3.8% +7.0% = 10.8% as of August 2006) or by adding 7.4% to the C-CPI-U rate (3.4% + 7.4% = 10.8% as of August 2006). Graphs of alternate CPI measures can be found as follows. The CPI adjusted solely for the impact of the shift to geometric weighting is shown in the graph on the home page of Shadow Government Statistics : Home Page (http://www.shadowstats.com). The CPI adjusted for both the geometric weighting and earlier methodological changes is shown on the Alternate Data page, which is available as a tab at the top of the home page.

Hedonic Thrills of Using Federally Mandated Gasoline Additives

Aside from the changed weighting, the average person also tends to sense higher inflation than is reported by the BLS, because of hedonics, as in hedonism. Hedonics adjusts the prices of goods for the increased pleasure the consumer derives from them. That new washing machine you bought did not cost you 20% more than it would have cost you last year, because you got an offsetting 20% increase in the pleasure you derive from pushing its new electronic control buttons instead of turning that old noisy dial, according to the BLS.

When gasoline rises 10 cents per gallon because of a federally mandated gasoline additive, the increased gasoline cost does not contribute to inflation. Instead, the 10 cents is eliminated from the CPI because of the offsetting hedonic thrills the consumer gets from breathing cleaner air. The same principle applies to federally mandated safety features in automobiles. I have not attempted to quantify the effects of questionable quality adjustments to the CPI, but they are substantial.

Then there is "intervention analysis" in the seasonal adjustment process, when a commodity, like gasoline, goes through violent price swings. Intervention analysis is done to tone down the volatility. As a result, somehow, rising gasoline prices never seem to get fully reflected in the CPI, but the declining prices sure do.

How Can So Many Financial Pundits Live Without Consuming Food and Energy?

The Pollyannas on Wall Street like to play games with the CPI, too. The concept of looking at the "core" rate of inflation-net of food and energy-was developed as a way of removing short-term (as in a month or two) volatility from inflation when energy and/or food prices turned volatile. Since food and energy account for about 23% of consumer spending (as weighted in the CPI), however, related inflation cannot be ignored for long. Nonetheless, it is common to hear financial pundits cite annual "core" inflation as a way of showing how contained inflation is. Such comments are moronic and such commentators are due the appropriate respect.

Too-Low Inflation Reporting Yields Too-High GDP Growth

As is discussed in the final installment on GDP, part of the problem with GDP reporting is the way inflation is handled. Although the CPI is not used in the GDP calculation, there are relationships with the price deflators used in converting GDP data and growth to inflation-adjusted numbers. The more inflation is understated, the higher the inflation-adjusted rate

[TIMA9X]

Shareholders target Joyce over Qantas action


THE Qantas chief, Alan Joyce, may have to appear before an extraordinary shareholders meeting to explain why he did not inform them of his intention to ground the airline.


All Qantas aircraft were grounded on October 29, just 24 hours after Mr Joyce addressed the company's annual meeting and received resounding shareholder support for an upgraded pay package. He did not indicate to shareholders at that meeting that the company was preparing to ground the airline the following day, as a precursor to a staff lock-out in response to industrial action by licensed engineers, long-haul pilots and ground crew.


The national secretary of the Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union, Michael O'Connor, who is also a Qantas shareholder, said yesterday the union would exercise its options under the Corporations Act and call for an extraordinary general meeting to hold Mr Joyce accountable for his actions. Under the act, the signatures of 100 shareholders with voting rights can call for a meeting and the company must oblige.


The union has lodged a formal request with Qantas to hand over its share register, with the names, addresses and holdings of the company's top 5000 registered shareholders.


"The CFMEU is not satisfied with some of the recent actions and comments of Qantas management,'' Mr O'Connor said yesterday.
"We will be consulting with other shareholders as to the merits of calling for a general meeting to ask the company to give shareholders the benefit of an explanation of their recent activities, and why no mention of their intention to ground the airline was made to the annual general meeting … ''
The three-day grounding left tens of thousands of passengers stranded throughout the world.


Following an order by the national workplace tribunal Fair Work Australia on October 31 to halt all further industrial action by either side, Qantas and the three unions involved in the ongoing dispute (which does not include the CFMEU) have until Monday to settle their differences.


The government's workplace umpire's Fair Work Australia will move to arbitrate a binding agreement and will rule on all outstanding matters if, as expected, Qantas and the unions fail to reach an agreement.


It is understood at least two of the unions, the Transport Workers Union and the Australian and International Pilots Association, which launched an appeal challenging the termination ruling - have reached a stalemate with Qantas executives and are now willing to ''roll the dice'' in a Fair Work determination.
A government source told the Herald there was ''little tolerance left in the ranks'' over the protracted industrial stoush.


The source said ''all sides have had clear and simple instructions of the process throughout the negotiation period. It is time to make it work.''
Mr Joyce said negotiations with the unions were continuing but could not provide details whether a satisfactory enterprise bargaining agreement would be reached, as the Fair Work Australia process was ''confidential. ''


The TWU's national secretary, Tony Sheldon, said the union was ''committed to making conciliation work … as long as Qantas did not continue to persue a belligerent stance towards the job security of employees who have kept Qantas profitable for over 20 years.'

Read more: Shareholders target Joyce over Qantas action (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/shareholders-target-joyce-over-qantas-action-20111118-1nndc.html#ixzz1e4E0d7oP)

Not sure it will come to much.... but would be interesting if a meeting does take place..

[Sarcs]

Ben also has a take on the CFMEU calling for an Extraordinary General Meeting:Qantas may face a 2nd shareholder meetimg over Asia plans | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/11/19/qantas-may-face-a-2nd-shareholder-general-meeting/) Maybe they're finally turning up the screws on Joyce with a please explain!:=

[Cargo744]

Grow a brain. Or have SP take over! He is the answser for sure

[73to91]

Back to page 65 and routes, etc.

Hong Kong Airlines would like to say thankyou QANTAS :rolleyes:


Hong Kong Airlines has announced that it will launch an all Club Class service, flying daily non-stop between London and Hong Kong from 08 March, 2012.

The new flights will be operated with a dedicated fleet of three brand new Airbus A330-200s, featuring a unique all Club Class seating configuration of just 116 seats. Each of these ultra-modern aircraft will showcase two premium cabins: ‘Club Premier’ and ‘Club Classic’, both of which have been created to deliver the airline’s exceptional signature service.

Club Premier will include 34 luxurious suites with fully flat 6’1” beds configured 1-2-1 in the two forward cabins; a fine dining service with individual table settings, superior wines and champagne; turndown service with duvets, pyjamas and slippers and luxury amenity kits.
Club Classic will feature 82 cradle seats configured 2-2-2 over two cabins with a spacious 51” seat pitch with 22” width and superior dining. All cabins come complete with WIFI, AVOD, digital magazines and high definition 16:9 ratio widescreens; 15.4” in Club Premier and 10.4” in Club Classic.

Flight HX 875 will depart Hong Kong at 11.50pm, arriving at London Gatwick Airport the following day at 5.55am.

The return service, flight HX 876, will depart from London Gatwick, North Terminal, at 9.30pm, arriving in Hong Kong at 6.05pm the following day.

Hong Kong Airlines to Launch All Club Class Daily Service from London - Airline News - etravelblackboard.com (http://www.etravelblackboard.com/article/125681/hong-kong-airlines-to-launch-all-club-class-daily-service-from-london)

Air France would also like to say thanks QANTAS :confused:


Singapore now served new flights by B777-200ER
Features new Business Class seat and innovations in all cabins

Starting on 28 May 2012, Air France will be operating three additional round-trip flights between Paris and Singapore, giving travellers more options and flexibility.

The three new flights by Boeing 777-200ER are in addition to the daily round-trip flights currently operated by Air France between Paris and Singapore and will increase flight frequency to ten times a week.
The Boeing 777-200ER seats 309 passengers in a 4-cabin configuration:
· First - 4 seats
· Business - 48 seats
· Premium Voyageur – 24 seats
· Voyageur - 170 seats

Air France launches additional flights on Singapore route - Airline News - etravelblackboard.com (http://www.etravelblackboard.com/article/125676/air-france-launches-additional-flights-on-singapore-route)

[blackbook]

Qantas booked lockout notices before grounding fleet: couriers - Business (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-21/qantas-booked-lockout-notices-before-grounding-fleet-couriers/3685160?section=business)

Qantas booked lockout notices before grounding fleet: couriers

[Captain Gidday]

The Boeing 777-200ER seats 309 passengers in a 4-cabin configuration:
· First - 4 seats
· Business - 48 seats
· Premium Voyageur – 24 seats
· Voyageur - 170 seats

No matter which language you add up those four numbers in, you don't get 309.

[33 Disengage]

Proof is beginning to emerge that AJ has perjured himself in the senate hearing. Documents both internal and external to Qantas, written prior to the 29th Oct are starting to surface. These are in addition to BB's letter that he claims was a typo.

Credibility is starting to erode and it could take a few big names with it!

[QF94]

Proof is beginning to emerge that AJ has perjured himself in the senate hearing. Documents both internal and external to Qantas, written prior to the 29th Oct are starting to surface. These are in addition to BB's letter that he claims was a typo.

Credibility is starting to erode and it could take a few big names with it!


I wouldn't be getting too excited about this. These maggots have a way of getting out of a perceived bind they appear to be in. As for taking a few big names with it. The only name that may go will be AJ. That's why he was given his 71% pay increase. He takes the fall, because it was "solely his idea", but he had the backing of the board.

For it to go further than a hearing, there has to be more evidence submitted, and a recommendation to go to an enquiry and investigate the goings on in Coward St, Mascot. By the time that happens, AJ would have handed back his citizenship and headed back to Oireland with his $5million and the others involved would appear to be innocent bystanders caught up in the madness of AJ.

[Keg]

It wouldn't surprise me that Joyce et al had couriers and hotel rooms booked for the preceding couple of weeks also. I reckon they were just waiting for the best time.

Either way though, if it was pre-planned it's a massive act of bastardry with multiple layers of duplicity, misinformation, subtefuge, etc; and if AJ made the decision 'solely' on the Saturday morning then it shows a fundamentally dysfunctional and highly dangerouse decision making process at play. Chose your poison. :mad:

[SOPS]

I think I have heard tis plan before....................

[SpannerTwister]

Breaking news .......

It has been revealed that every single nurse in Victoria is male.

It was previously thought (assumed) that nursing was primarily a "female" profession, but in a surprising twist it has been revealed that every nurse in Victoria actually has b@lls ..................

Nurses remain defiant over work bans - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-21/vic-nurses-to-continue-strikes/3684862)

Nurses remain defiant over work bans

" Victorian nurses are engaging in brinkmanship with the State Government and industrial umpire Fair Work Australia after voting on Monday afternoon to continue their legally unprotected industrial action.

Last week Fair Work ordered the Australian Nursing Federation (ANF) to cease work bans.


Monday afternoon's vote to continue the action means nurses now face potential penalties and the union may face legal action in the Federal Court.


" Victorian branch secretary Lisa Fitzpatrick......"Legal action or the threat of legal action will not fix this dispute. It will not assist in reaching a negotiated outcome and it is not the way to progress," she said.


The media was then ejected so members could speak freely. It was invited back in more than an hour later for the final vote which was unanimously in support of work bans. "


ST

[Sunfish]

The ABS program "Lateline" appears to be suggesting that Alan Joyce has been economical with the truth regarding the Qantas grounding, and that it was not a spur of the moment decision, but was in fact premeditated as a deliberate industrial tactic.

Lateline believes they have witnesses, in the form of Two couriers, who can confirm they were booked in advance of the alleged decision date.

Alan Joyce's defence that there were "Contingency plans" fails if the couriers statements - that they were booked to work Sunday on Thursday or Friday, are true. One does not book someone to carry out work on a specific day as a "contingency", that is a logical nonsense. The decision had to have been taken in principle by the time those bookings were made with cancellation of the decision to ground on Saturday morning being a possibility.

To put that another way; Joyces argument that he made "the decision" on Saturday is akin to a pilot on short final deciding to go around or not - the intention to land was already determined.


If this is the case, then it appears that "Good Faith" and Qantas are strangers.

On a macro level, I refuse to believe that the Qantas Board was not told in advance of the apparently planned decision to ground the airline and disrupt the travel plans of Tens of Thousands of Australians, because I don't think any CEO would dare to do something that potentially compromises brand (and shareholder) value so severely without permission.

I think the Board and Joyce will have to go since I fail to understand why anyone would trust their utterances ever again. Maybe they could work for Rupert Murdoch.


Two couriers have told ABC's Lateline program that Qantas booked drivers to deliver lockout notices in the days leading up to the airline's announcement it was grounding its fleet.

When Qantas first took industrial action just over three weeks ago, CEO Alan Joyce said he had made the decision to ground the airline on the Saturday morning after the Qantas AGM.

Passengers were left stranded, holidays were ruined and Qantas customers and employees were united in their anger.

Lateline has spoken to couriers and Qantas workers who have raised doubts about the timeline laid out by Mr Joyce at the Senate hearing.

Two employees of Direct Couriers have told Lateline they were asked to work on Sunday, October 30, as part of a mass delivery of this lockout notice to at least 6,000 Qantas staff.

The couriers, who spoke to Lateline on the condition their names were not used, said that drivers were booked for the job in the days before Mr Joyce says he made the decision to ground the airline.

"I was asked on Friday. We were told they had a one-off job on Sunday and we would start at 6:00am. We weren't told we might have a job, we were told we had a job," one courier said.

"On the Thursday I was asked if I wanted to work Sunday - an all-dayer. We were told we could work any area we liked and it was delivering letters," said the other.

Both couriers have confirmed the job was delivering lockout notices for Qantas.

Direct Couriers refused to comment, and Mr Joyce today denied the allegations that couriers were booked before October 29.

"We have been very clear on this and there's been lots on conspiracy theories," he said.

"The printers were booked on the day that we made the decision and no notices had been ordered in terms of printing and nobody had been informed of it because the decision wasn't made until the Saturday."

Labor Senator and former Transport Workers Union official Alex Gallacher, who is on the Senate Committee which has been questioning Mr Joyce, says the logistics of the exercise would have required pre-planning.

"Obviously to individually deliver to workers' homes on the weekend a notice of lockout, there needs to be some considerable pre-planning in respect to that," he said.

"I don't think there are enough couriers active on a Sunday, which is traditionally a slow day in transport ... available at the drop of the hat to suddenly activate such a comprehensive delivery schedule.

"[Mr Joyce] has a lot of questions to answer as there are about 24 unanswered questions on notice out of the hearing and a large number of unanswered questions arising from consideration of the transcript of the hearing."
Video: The dispute between Qantas and unions will go to forced arbitration after negotiations failed. (Lateline)

Managers flown out

Lateline has also obtained an internal memo sent to flight attendants at the time of the grounding of the fleet by the executive manager of the Qantas cabin crew.

It confirms that Qantas sent four senior cabin crew managers to Singapore and Los Angeles in the lead-up to the announcement of the lockout.

All four flew out on the Friday on the day of the Qantas AGM. According to the memo, their role was to provide information to cabin crew about the grounding of the fleet.

When asked why the managers were flown to Los Angeles and Singapore on the Friday, Mr Joyce responded "You could also say 'why did we send our entire PR department to Melbourne on the day of the announcement and had to fly them back on Virgin?"

"There was no decision made till the Saturday. We had contingency plans that were being prepared before the Saturday. But no decision had been made till the Saturday."

Qantas issued a statement to Lateline saying managers were flown out due to an anticipated increase in industrial action around the time of the AGM.

"The unions had indicated that they were planning on ramping up industrial action around our Annual General Meeting and as such four members of cabin crew management were sent to Singapore and Los Angeles," a spokesman for Qantas said.

But the unions dispute that they were planning to ramp up industrial action. The engineers union had called a three week halt to industrial action just the week before.

The Senate inquiry into the Qantas Sale Amendment Bill reopens on Thursday.

Topics: air-transport, industry, business-economics-and-finance, industrial-relations, unions, australia

First posted November 21, 2011 22:52:56


Qantas booked lockout notices before grounding fleet: couriers - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-21/qantas-booked-lockout-notices-before-grounding-fleet-couriers/3685160)

[denabol]

I don't think Lateline was suggesting anything. It was exposing untruths.
As a shareholder I think Joyce is turning into a liar-bility.
So does one of my favorite reads.

Qantas CEO faces renewed credibility crisis over shut-down | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/11/22/has-qantas-lied-to-the-senate-its-shareholders-its-employees-and-to-its-customers/)

[Sunfish]

If, as Sandilands alleges, Joyce is shown to be a liar then the damage to Qantas is complete for one very simple reason:

Every employee of Qantas now has permission to lie to anyone - customer, regulator or fellow employee - Joyce allegedly gives it to them.

You cannot operate to your AOC if you are not a "Fit and proper person' and there are multiple precedents of CASA requiring the removal of Directors and managers from any association with the running of an airline, on penalty of cancellation of the AOC.

[gobbledock]

Joyce own admission is that the Board had no involvement in the decision to ground the airline. So may I please ask:
What is the use or purpose of the board and all those remuneration packages they greedily absorb in the same manner a pig absorbs feed out of a trough? I see a huge saving in costs alone just there, if you don't need them then punt them.
Don't some of those same board members also supposedly provide 'safety advice' to the executive team as part of their role, and if that is the case what level of safety advice could they either advise or have input in if they supposedly didn't even know what was going to take place that Saturday?
To date all these decisions that have been actioned call in to question the honesty, integrity and ability of the accountable CEO, so that has an impact on the airlines AOC, what are CASA doing, apart from sitting on their thumbs?????

And finally, dear Senators, are you really prepared to allow this CEO to continue making a mockery of you by his playing this little game of cat and mouse with you? I am hopeful that you are merely giving him enough rope, but it might be time to reel him in?
Remember, there is such a thing as risk, and as long as the game continues the risks grow higher.

[breakfastburrito]

The Lateline disclosures, last night, and earlier in the year, raise an important question in company law, which is whether or not the duty of senior managers and boards of directors to maximise returns to shareholders absolve them from being decent, honest citizens, or alternatively, that corporations and their executives and boards have a licence to lie in pursuit of their fiduciary duty.

Has Qantas lied to the Senate, its shareholders, its employees and to its customers? (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/11/22/has-qantas-lied-to-the-senate-its-shareholders-its-employees-and-to-its-customers/)

That is the question of the era Ben, excellent work. The principles underpinning modern financial theory are encapsulated in that single question.

[dragon man]

I heard a story yesterday of someone who works in flight ops who was going to Melbourne the weekend of the grounding. This was on the Tuesday. His manager said dont go but wouldnt elaborate. Later he saw a very very senior pilot and asked his opinion. The answer was the same , dont go, but wouldnt elaborate. You add in the CC manager sent to Lax on the Friday with United and the courier drivers i think its fair to say it was pre planned.

[breakfastburrito]

Sunfish, as to your question on the AOC, I notice Lyell Strambi, the actual AOC holder has been very quiet - for the very reasons you hint at. He is the man that actually needs to be answer questions before the inquiry. Management appear to determined to keep him as far from probing questions as possible. He is the key man, because his integrity is key to the fit and proper person test.. Perhaps the good Senator X needs to invite him to answer questions.

[teresa green]

Yep, its hard to believe the bloke got up Sat morning, had a scratch, a coffee, a bit of vege on toast, and then thought, I think I will ground Qantas today, that should put the cat amongst the pidgeons for those pesky unions, see how those overpaid bus drivers like being stranded OS. Yep I will do it, picks up phone, gives the order to the amazed person on other end of line, finishes toast, gives press interview, starts to become uncomfortable as entire nation goes ballistic. Realises bitten off more than he can chew, as the interviews heat up, so does the sweating, and then it finally dawns on him being born outside this country, did not give him the same affection for the Icon that Australians have, if QF is flying all is well, and with one phone call he took away the nations comfort blanket. Outraged population, stranded PAX, well what did he expect? And one huge lesson staring him in the face from 89, what happens to this country when its airlines are not functioning and he choose to ignore it. What a complete and absolute tosser and liar.

[Managers Perspective]

Oh for goodness sake, you were out smarted, stoop sooking and get over it.

While people sat here and told of how much harm they were and could continue to inflict, behind the scenes the little fella was forming his war plan.

Just face it, you loose.

MP.

[dragon man]

We lost a battle, however there is a long way to go in the war. A lesson i learnt as a child was that when you told a porky pie it took on a life of its own and inevitably you had to tell more porkies to justify the first one until the whole thing blew up in your face. Sound familiar!!!

[ohallen]

This is all just a war of semantics by Joyce as he clearly had his mind made up and has continued through the current union negotiations.

The term that applies is :"Deceptive by omission".

Re the Board if he didn't need their permission, why did he call a meeting???There is something seriously wrong with Governance at Qantas if his account is correct.

It is not what he said but what he didn't say that changes the whole context of the message conveyed.

Liability...you bet.

[22k]

Geez, even managers can't spell LOSE properly these days!! No wonder so many companies are doing so poorly! Their executives keep buggering everything by accident due to grammatical incompetence!!

[clark y]

Manager's Perspective,
"behind the scenes the little fella was forming his war plan."
-are you telling us that this was not a choice made on a Saturday morning over Vege on toast?

I think the real problem is the claim that this was not a premeditated operation. The shutdown occurred just after the AGM (at which the lockout/grounding was not announced). I agree with the beliefs above that AJ did not alone make this decision. ACCC/ASIC/ASX should be interested.
If the PR department flew home on Virgin, I wonder if those tickets were pre-booked?????

[breakfastburrito]

ohallen, my mind keep coming back to this post on a different thread (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/467610-merged-qantas-grounded-effective-immediately-34.html#post6779359) by Pundit (http://www.pprune.org/members/199682-pundit):
I had a very interesting email from a colleague who is closely associated with Irish Business. It is his opinion that we are all labouring under our Australian beliefs and teachings. AJ isn’t attached to, or constrained by, these beliefs, teaching or our history. He is not an Australian and had been brought up in a Country where intellectual betrayal, or more specifically, mental reservation, casuistry and equivocation are accepted practice.

As he (my colleague) explained, the Collins Dictionary defines mental reservation as....’a tacit withholding of full assent or an unexpressed qualification made when one is taking an oath, making a statement, etc.’ Casuistry is ....’ reasoning that is specious, misleading, or oversubtle’.

The doctrines of mental reservation and casuistry were developed in the middle ages and are most often associated with the Jesuits. Mental reservation involves truths "expressed partly in speech and partly in the mind," relying upon the idea that God hears what is in one's mind while human beings hear only what one speaks. Verbally, “I did not steal any sheep on Tuesday”, mentally continuing, “it was on Wednesday”. It is a way of telling lies while being able to claim that you’ve been completely honest. For instance, the Primate of Ireland, Cardinal Desmond Connell, was comfortable with telling journalists that diocesan funds are not used to pay off the victims of clerical abusers, and he was very pleased with the subtlety of his language. He took great satisfaction in explaining that he didn’t say such funds were not used in the past, and if the journalists happened to be hoodwinked by his clever use of language, why that was just their own misfortune for not being as slippery smart as the Cardinal!

In our culture the statement, “Mr. Boyce is not in the office” typically means that Boyce is not taking phone calls right now (or, at least not this particular phone call). The caller understands (or should understand) that this is a polite way of saying, “Boyce is not available to you at this moment, even though he is actually in the office.” No one is really fooled by this expression using ambiguous language; we simply take it for what it is.

President Bill Clinton was educated at the foremost Jesuit training centre, Georgetown University. According to Clinton's biographer David Maraniss, the President owed his formidable skills as a criminal defendant to 'his training in casuistry at Georgetown University'. Casuistry is equivocal to rationalization, “to cause something to seem reasonable, to provide plausible but untrue reasons for conduct”. We all recall Bill Clinton, a former Rhodes Scholar, insist that he did not have sexual relations with that woman, when most guys in his position would be more than happy to think of what he got up to as just that!

Closer to home there was the Australian Spycatcher affair. Sir Robert Armstrong, now Baron Armstrong, produced the magnificent phrase “economical with the truth”. The world loved the patent absurdity of Armstrong’s phrase, and laughed at it, because we all understood what he meant. Economical with the truth! Every parent knows who took the sweets, or put a football through the window. It was Mister Nobody or maybe a kamikaze.

The question that should be asked of AJ and the QF spin doctors is, ‘Do you have a mental reservation in respect of your statement?’

[Sunfish]

Managers Perspective:

Oh for goodness sake, you were out smarted, stoop sooking and get over it.

While people sat here and told of how much harm they were and could continue to inflict, behind the scenes the little fella was forming his war plan.

Just face it, you loose.

MP.

Obviously you aren't even a managers fundament.

In any business dealing there are representations of good faith when purveying stuff to the General Public. If Qantas can be shown to have been taking money under false pretences, it has committed the crime of fraud.

...And no, making restitution doesn't remove the crime.

The legal dictum now to be invoked is "false in one, false in all" - if Joyce has lied, no one can ever trust anything Qantas says about anything at all - from the safety of the aircraft to the scheduled departure time.

[ohallen]

Being a simple person, I wonder whether we actually pander to these types by seeking to try and explain what they are doing and their delusional logic.

There is little doubt that he knew what he was doing, there is little doubt that it was planned to the most minute detail and there is no doubt that the intentions were not disclosed.

Lying and deception come to mind I am afraid.

In the case of the former US president you refer to, he was held to account. He was publicly shunned because the public did not accept the lies rather than the deed itself (which no-one really cared about much). Seems an appropriate analogy.

[ampclamp]

It will come down to semantics on current 'evidence'.

Yes I made the slingshot, gathered the rocks to fire , painted a target on mum's fat bum, told my pals what I had done but it was only just in case I had to use the slingshot, rocks and the target, I never made the decision to shoot mum on the @rse until the last minute.

Yes it looks bad but you never know what will stack up legally.

I dont like these people , their tactics are despicable and trust them nought but they are not stupid, are well advised with plenty of clout in the establishment.

[Keg]

ampclamp has neatly summed up the Qantas CEO's defence in all this. All the pre planning in the world doesn't mean the decision has been made to 'go' with the action. Again, it wouldn't surprise me if they had booked hotel rooms for the preceding week- and perhaps the week prior to that also. AJ perhaps had even thought about the day after the AGM as 'the day the war began' and war gamed the possible scenarios but he still hadn't made the actual decision until the morning.

It's a bit like crew planning a diversion in the event of bad weather at destination. You put the ducks in a row, make sure you have everything covered in case you make the decision to 'go' but the actual decision to go can be made at multiple places between 'now' and 'PNR'.

I'm not condoning it, part of me even admires the forethought. I just wish they could show the same forethought about things like aircraft configuration, fleet disposition, crewing numbers, route structure, etc. If they put as much thought and effort into actually running the airline as they do trying to screw over the workers we'd be world beaters.

[Jack Ranga]

AJ perhaps had even thought about the day after the AGM as 'the day the war began'

Yep, the day after 'I'm alright Jack' locked in himself a 75% payrise. :cool:

[Jabawocky]

Keg

Yet again pure gold!

And I don't work there, but as a customer, you're summary is spot on.

I am still not convinced this is AJ's work. It is a repeat of Leigh Clifford's finest, and there is one other brought to my attention who has a similar streak, Cosgrove.

Watch these guys. They were all in it for sure.

[Avid Aviator]

If they put as much thought and effort into actually running the airline as they do trying to screw over the workers we'd be world beaters.

Ain't that the truth!! Instead, we're just waiting for the good ship Qantas to run into an iceberg any day now....

[Busboy92]

Oh right, couriers booked means thay were defiately going to deliver lockout notices..... please!!!

[ejectx3]

Managers Perspective, either you're Gen Y or thick as two planks, or both, but you might earn an ounce of credibility if you learn to spell "lose" , when you tell us we have lost.

You've been told before but you don't seem that bright so I'll tell you again. You ready?

Ok, "Loser" is what you are.

Alan is very "loose" with the truth.

Get it?

Good boy.

[piston broke again]

Joyce is not smart enough to have orchestrated this whole debacle on his own. Of course it was the board behind the decision to ground the fleet. Once again the non-Australian is the person to front the media. OW was nowhere to be seen during the grounding. Put the Irishman on the frontline. Qantas workers did lose the battle. Just win the war, plenty of support out there for you.

[Cactusjack]

Breaking news .......
It has been revealed that every single nurse in Victoria is male. Great, another fantasy killed off! Thanks for that SpannerTwister.

[TineeTim]

Ejectx3: Bless you.

Manger blower: Please read Ejectx3's post again.

[Cactusjack]

Ain't that the truth!! Instead, we're just waiting for the good ship Qantas to run into an iceberg any day now....
It already has hit the iceberg and is listing to the left. Will AJ and all the other seamen go down on the ship, so to speak ?

I can picture it now, the ship has sunk, Cliffy clings to a piece of FOD, but there is only room for one person on the FOD, and sadly as Cliffy clings to life he holds the hand of AJ (who remarkably looks like a little penguin lost and abandoned) in the icy water, and grips on for dear life. But alas the rescue comes to late for AJ who is gone forever. But the wiley Cliffy gets rescued by Darth and Co who ensure he lives to tell the tale about the day that Qantas sank to the bottom of aviation's deepest waters.
Now, que the music - The Qantas choir sing 'My Heart Will Go On', all dressed in pure white while wearing red ties.
Tissue please, this is emotional stuff, really tugs at your heart strings.

[rh200]

Its a game of chess, with the winner predicting the others move in advance and then working out their counter move. He could most likely see what everyones actions where going to be well in advance, especially the unions response to the board meeting.

Hence put the chess pieces in place, and whalla you get a couple of triggers post board meeting and you press the button on the machinery that you have waiting to go. He set the trap, and then sprung it when he thought the prey was in it.

[K9P]

Use the mining tax to buy back QANTAS, put it back where it belongs, sack the board they have proved their incompetence, keep the skill base in Australia.
Also use the mining tax to buy back all the utilities that have been sold off, these assets belong to the people not some private companies that have us over a barrel and keep bumping up the prices as they have a monopoly on said utility.
This is investing in the future of Australia, control of our assets.

[DJ737]

If the QF AOC holder is found unfit to hold an AOC and CASA decide that he should go or lose the AOC, guess what will happen?

I'll give you a clue, AJ, LS & the board will stay. The QF group have a few other airlines to run, QANTAS mainline will be dumped if the need arises. :hmm:

[Red Jet]

or loose the AOC

WARNING! WARNING!

There are spelling police patrolling this very thread. Mind your keyboard boys!!

Lose vs Loose

A lot of people are mixing up lose and loose. In particular, a lot of people are writing loose when they really mean lose. Here are the definitions of the two words from my Penguin dictionary:

loose [lOOs] adj not fastened or pre-packed; not tied up or confined; able to move freely; not tight, not firmly fixed; not close-fitting; careless, inaccurate, vague; dissolute, immoral; not closely woven; flabby; (of bowels) inclined to diarrhoea; l. box stable or van in which an animal can move about; at a l. end uncertain what to do next; unoccupied ~ loose adv in a loose way; play fast and l. behave rashly or unscupulously ~ loose n release; on the l. free from restraint; on a spree; ~ loose v/t untie, undo; release from confinement or constraint, set free; detatch; fire (gun); shoot (arrow); (eccles) absolve.

lose (p/t and p/part lost) [lOOz] v/t and i no longer have; be deprived of by accident or misfortune; mislay, fail to find; fail to get or win; be too late for; be bereaved of; waste; be defeated or beaten; suffer loss, become worse off; fail to hear, see or understand; cause or allow to perish; (of clock or watch) go too slowly; (refl) miss the right path; become absorbed in; l. one's head become flustered, panic; l. one's temper grow angry; l. one's way fail to find the right path; l. out (US) be defeated after a struggle.

Examples:

This knot is too loose.
Please do not lose my book.
I had better not lose that file.
One way to remember the difference between the two words is to think that "lose has lost an 'o'".

[peuce]

Managers Perspective said:

Oh for goodness sake, you were out smarted, stoop sooking and get over it.

While people sat here and told of how much harm they were and could continue to inflict, behind the scenes the little fella was forming his war plan.

Just face it, you loose.


I was just imagining how it would have turned out if the boot was on the other foot ... that is, if all the Staff had walked out on the Saturday afternoon and shut down the airline.

Could you imagine the furor from the nation ... and people such as "Managers Perspective" :confused::confused:

[73to91]

Again, it wouldn't surprise me if they had booked hotel rooms for the preceding week
I asked another former employee about this Keg, i.e. what hotel rooms does QF need to book? crew accommodation ? already done. Other staff on duty travel? not the volumes that have been mentioned surely. What about a delayed flight tonight? but that is or would hopefully be 1 flight in 1 city?

The JetSet Travel group of which Qantas Holidays is part of would book many room nights everyday but that is NOT Qantas, so again, what hotel rooms does QF need to book.

Surely the 3 unions involved in the current dispute can get their feelers out as 'someone' in the company must know the truth.

dragon man said, heard a story yesterday of someone who works in flight ops who was going to Melbourne the weekend of the grounding. This was on the Tuesday. His manager said dont go but wouldnt elaborate. Later he saw a very very senior pilot and asked his opinion. The answer was the same , dont go, but wouldnt elaborate. You add in the CC manager sent to Lax on the Friday with United and the courier drivers i think its fair to say it was pre planned. Were any other staff/sections asked on the Thursday or Friday to work overtime on the Sunday? there must have and I'd say res staff and terminal staff would have been asked? You'd think that there would be staff who would be happy to say so.

[QF94]

Obviously the PR machine of QANTAS can't get anything right. Their latest gaff being a t witter competiton.

"Qantas had been seeking tweeters’ "dream inflight experiences" for a chance to win a pair of first class pyjamas and an amenities kit."

Qantas in first class Twitter fail | Courier Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/travel/qantas-in-first-class-twitter-fail/story-e6freqwf-1226202462652)

Here are some of the tweets.

"#QantasLuxury is that safe feeling that comes from knowing your pilots are wearing the correct coloured ties"

"@QantasAirways Safe planes, pity you've crashed the brand into the ground from 30,000 ft. #qantasluxury"

"#QantasLuxury is a 3 engined Boeing 747. The 4th engine is exclusive to Gold Members."

"Quick note to corporate Australia: when you're in the middle of crushing your workforce, don't start a twitter promotion. #QantasLuxury"

"#QantasLuxury is knowing a $30 prize pack probably won't buy off the Australian public"

(http://twitter.com/)


Glad to see that the idiots running the PR and marketing have nothing better to do than to give away a pair of 1st Class pyjamas and an amenities kit and cop a lambasting for it. I had to laugh at first, then I was just left shaking my head at the stupidity.

Which Richard Cranium comes up with this manure?

I don't know why, but t witter becomes PPrune. Just as funny though being a PPrune competition!

[Roger that.]

»

http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/1611944243/joyce_normal.jpg
AlanJoyceCEO (http://twitter.com/#!/AlanJoyceCEO) Fake Alan Joyce



#QantasLuxury (http://twitter.com/#!/search?q=%23QantasLuxury) is watching a social media disaster unfold. Helps a CEO get through the day.

1 hour ago (http://twitter.com/#!/AlanJoyceCEO/status/138789896176402432)





And here's me thinking Leigh and Oliva got you through the day!

[neville_nobody]

This could get exciting. There maybe a few Chairman lounge favours called in over this one to prevent it going to trial.

Qantas pilots call for inquiry over lockout
Kelly Burke
November 22, 2011 - 11:58AM
Long-haul pilots have called for a judicial inquiry, following a report that private couriers were booked to deliver lockout notices before the Qantas annual meeting last month.

Qantas's chief executive Alan Joyce has told a Senate inquiry under oath that the decision to ground all aircraft in preparation for a total staff lockout on November 1 was made on the morning of October 29, the day after shareholders met the company and approved a large pay package increase for Mr Joyce.

No mention of the fleet's imminent grounding nor a staff lockout was made at the shareholders' meeting.

Advertisement: Story continues below
But two couriers supplied written statements to the ABC's Lateline program last night saying that, in the days leading up to the Qantas grounding, drivers were booked to deliver lockout notices.

The two, who work for Direct Couriers, have remained anonymous.

They said that, on October 27, the day before the annual meeting, they were asked to work on Sunday, October 30, to help with a mass delivery of lockout notices to about 6000 Qantas staff members.

The statements are the latest in mounting evidence that Mr Joyce was planning to lock out staff long before October 29, but kept the plans secret from Qantas shareholders.

Evidence has also emerged that senior Qantas managers were flown to Singapore and Los Angeles on the Friday in preparation for the grounding the following day.

The Australian and International Pilots Association has today called for a judicial inquiry into the circumstances of the Qantas grounding last month.

They have argued that the fresh allegations against Mr Joyce are consistent with advice received by the union that about 3000 hotel rooms were booked in Los Angeles before the annual meeting.

The union's vice-president, Richard Woodward, said there were now grave questions over Mr Joyce's credibility.

“If these allegations ... are correct, it would appear Mr Joyce has lied to the Australian people and it would appear he has lied under oath to a Senate inquiry," he said.

“A judicial inquiry with the powers of a royal commission is now needed to get to the bottom of this and uncover the truth. The commission must look at whether shareholders were misled at the AGM and identify whether the public and the Qantas workforce were lied to."

AAP reports: Mr Joyce has dismissed the claims as "conspiracy theories", saying the decision was made at the airline's board meeting on Saturday, October 29.

Qantas then told the federal government of the decision that day at 2pm.

"We had plans going back weeks as contingencies for a lockout and a grounding ... but the decision was made on the Saturday," Mr Joyce told the Seven Network today.

"There is going to be conspiracy theories. The fact is the decision was made on the Saturday."



Read more: Qantas pilots call for inquiry over lockout (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/qantas-pilots-call-for-inquiry-over-lockout-20111122-1ns16.html#ixzz1eOtN77AZ)

[FGD135]

Keg,

A coolminded and intelligent post. Almost every other post here is a wild-eyed and hysterical rant.

The courier booking is evidence of pre-planning - not of an early decision.

I'm surprised the ABC has fallen for this.

[Keg]

Actually, I suspect that the decision actually had been made. It's just that he's got plausible deniability and once again we're looking for a 'smoking gun' that had it existed at the time, has probably been destroyed by now.

[Poto]

So were these couriers still getting paid if Allan had not "decided" on Sat-to-di morning to wreck the airline?

Pre planned, pre booked, Whatever. Walking, talking more and more like a duck!

[Keg]

I think Senator X et al are going to have a great time when next AJ sits in front of them.

[neville_nobody]

Maybe. After watching those Senate Estimate hearings noone asks penetrating questions and none of them have enough knowledge of the subject to nail people. The senators need more expert help at the table to put people under constant pressure. Mind you if it really got to court that would be a different story as there will be council assisting who apply the blow torch if the defendant makes a wrong step.

In reality it would take someone in QF to grow a conscience and/or a spine to come out and testify for any serious blows to be laid on Joyce. I think this will probably just roll on and nothing further will be had of it unless we get a witness or someone stuffs up, and something gets into the media that shouldn't.

[SpannerTwister]

Great, another fantasy killed off! Thanks for that SpannerTwister.

Woops......Sorry about that, but then again once upon a time you probably also had fantasies about working for a company that cared and respected its workers and had a management team that you could trust and respect !!

ST

[TIMA9X]

pdZWAdZ5ORQ

check out what AJ says here about 5.30 in and onwards, in fact I believe AJ was very uncomfortable answers Bob Brown's questions.

.

[SpannerTwister]

Problem for "The Company" is that in today's environment it is almost impossible to keep bad things secret.

Without commenting in rights or wrongs of WikiLeaks and many other (infamous) whistle-blowers, if wrong things have been done by any party in recent times there is a fair chance that the truth will come out.

QF has an independent whistle-blowers hotline, one call from a disgruntled secretary, one fax from a miffed lackey and a whole house of cards could collapse .......

ST

[MACH082]

The leprechaun is not telling porkies he is telling the truth.

He made the decision to ground the airline on The Saturday. He planned to ground the airline in the weeks/months leading up to it. After receiving 97% shareholder support at the AGM, he activated the plan the following day. Problem is that 97% support is from 250 individuals representing the allotted shares. And they are all mates feeding out of the same trough.

This is like saying what came first the chicken or the egg. We could go around in circles all day.

The fact is while he made the decision to ground the airline on the Saturday, he planned to ground it in the weeks and months prior to that.

The question should be when did you plan to ground the airline. Not when did you decide to ground it.

Those leprechauns are slippery slimy little buggers!

[ramius315]

Precisely MACH082!! :D

Wake up boys and girls - there are far too many idealists here.

[clotted]

MACH082,
You are spot on. Keg is just like Senator X. Puffed up full of self importance. Scrambling for anything or any shred of happenstance that will support his cause or arguments. Senator X is merely of passing relevance. He is yet to make anything, just anything stick.
When are people especially pilots and Qantas pilots most of all, going to understand. Joyce did what he was permitted to do under FWA. If the unions, especially AIPA, didn't anticipate that he could or would then they are badly advised and badly miscalculated. He is entitled to ground the airline. If the board didn't like it, they'll sack him. If the shareholders didn't like it, they'll sack the board. If the union members who potentially were locked out didn't like it, then perhaps they'll now understand that their respective unions don't hold all the cards, by a long shot (slow bake, a year to get what we want, roll them at the AGM, I wouldn't buy tickets on Qantas before Christmas ..... are all words that come to mind). If the government didn't like it, it'll change the IR rules or exact revenge on Qantas. If the customers didn't like it they will fly with another airline next time BUT he can ground the airline if he chooses and if it is within the law and it is.
Furthermore FWA didn't put a hold on the PIA because some pilots were wearing red ties and making announcements that was of such piddling consequence. FWA did it because Qantas had grounded its fleet and that was of significance to the national interest. That was why the industrial action on BOTH sides was terminated. It is in the rules. That is exactly what he set out to do and more to the point said publicly that is what he set out to do. It is just the same in cricket when 10 batsmen are out or can't bat the innings is over...that's the rules.

[-438]

My limited understanding is there is a required notice period under FWA rules for an employee lockout. As such Qantas notified the Government of its plan to lockout employees in accordance with these requirements on the Saturday for a lockout on the Monday.

It then grounded the airline prior to this lockout even beginning. The reason for the grounding was apparently for safety reasons.
What were these safety reasons?

If Qantas had waited for FWA/Government to cancel the lockout due to national importance, the airline would never have needed to be grounded.

[clotted]

there is a required notice period under FWA rules for an employee lockout.
Incorrect there is no such prescription. Maybe there should be but there isn't. It is but one of the flaws in the FWA legislation.

[QFinsider]

Premeditated is characterized by some degree of pre-planning.
The fundamental tenet in FWA is whether or not the pre-meditation included the booking of couriers. If you listen to the ABC lateline programme carefully the workers were offered work, prior to the weekend.

Joyce argues a degree of pre-meditation and applies plausible deniability. The fact remains the workers were offered the work, not the possibility of work. It is now established that it is in fact beyond premeditation it is now planned and pre-arranged. The legal amongst us understand the subtle difference and it will be argued that there was Never any good faith at the very least during the negotiations on Friday which were to occur in 'good faith'.

It will only take a few sourced documents or people.

[MACH082]

Precisely.

The leprechaun is a lot of things and we could fill pages with it. But he is a farking genius the way he played this game.

1. Carefully plan all outcomes and responses with the best legal minds.
2. Cost all options with the best accountants.
3. Buy the media and pollies (lounges, iPads, grange, upgrades)
4. Line up the right people in the right positions of power. (boards, FWA etc)
5. Confuse the crap out of the troops in the media.
6. Busy their resources putting out these small fires and playing the man.
7. Distract them with a phantom airline (redq) (do you think he's that stupid?, these airbuses are and always were for Jetstar)
8. Flank them from behind.
9. Knockout blow.
10. Get bonus and payrise.

It's almost as if a millitary strategist has planned this, it's basically warfare. Hmmmmmm

[The The]

Disclosure Obligations on the Company
Listing Rule 3.1 requires the Company to immediately disclose to the ASX
information concerning the Company that it is or becomes aware of that a
reasonable person would expect to have a material effect on the price or value of
the Company's securities.
This rule does not apply to particular information, if and only if each of the
following applies:
• a reasonable person would not expect the information to be disclosed; and
• the information is confidential and the ASX has not formed a view that the
information has ceased to be confidential; and
• one or more of the following applies:
i. it would be a breach of a law to disclose the information.
ii. the information concerns an incomplete proposal or negotiation.
iii. the information comprises matters of supposition or is insufficiently definite to
warrant disclosure.
iv. the information is generated for the internal management purposes of the
Company.
v. the information is a trade secret.

This argument is not about FWA, it is about when and what should have been disclosed to shareholders.

As a shareholder, I think it pertinent to be informed that the Company was planning to ground the airline, costing tens of millions.

I would also say the plan to ground the airline was sufficiently definite to warrant disclosure. The facts coming to light now regarding hotel/courier bookings reiterates the plans were definite.

It now depends on whether ASIC will investigate and take action.

[DutchRoll]

There seems little doubt that Joyce has some serious questions to answer.

The problem is when it comes to proving potential guilt to the party sitting in official judgement, and as we often see, that throws up interesting results sometimes.

Much like OJ Simpson, the Irishman has bottomless pockets for paying his legal team to come up with some cockamamie defence which actually astonishes everyone by working.

[neville_nobody]

Incorrect there is no such prescription. Maybe there should be but there isn't. It is but one of the flaws in the FWA legislation.

Clotted I don't believe that is correct. Please post a link to support your assumption.

The impression I got from the FWA transcript was that QANTAS had enough of the industrial action so proposed a lockout. Of which a 72 hour notice had to be given by law.

THE GROUNDING was on safety BECAUSE OF the impending lockout. QANTAS has stated on the record that CASA was onto them because CASA thought there might be a safety risk with all the ongoing industrial problems. (But somehow fatigue isn't :ugh:)

Joyce thought that if they send everyone lockout notices that in the intervening time some safety issue might occur so he then decided as part of the saftey management system that he should ground the airline.

Two separate events occured here.

1. QANTAS wrote letters giving 72 hours notice of a impending industrial lockout under the FWA

2. Becuase of that (lockout) AND because of CASA AND because of the SMS QANTAS grounded the airline on the grounds of SAFTEY.

So essentially Joyce played the saftey card to orcharstrate a industrial outcome.......

The AIPA court case fits into this here somewhere.

Industrial relations with QF is like dealing with spoilt children. They want it all their way and will bully you and do anything possible to get their own way.

However if you play dirty on them they go running to mummy having a big cry. That's what we are up against here.

[TIMA9X]

He is entitled to ground the airline. If the board didn't like it, they'll sack him. If the shareholders didn't like it, they'll sack the board.Probably why it was decided to ground the airline the day after the AGM to give time for their plan to work. It is my view the board and AJ preplanned the lockout at this time so as not to involve it's share holders. The market last week betting that the dispute would be resolved, it's not, hence the share heading south again. If the institutional shareholders had a sniff that there would be a grounding it is possible they may have agreed. Now there is a very strong possibility many may feel a little cheated.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-HJ37Ts4owic/TssxzluNVQI/AAAAAAAAAFI/DnhhaaE01Qc/s655/01-a-newshare-price%25252022-11-11.JPG

Incorrect there is no such prescription. Maybe there should be but there isn't. It is but one of the flaws in the FWA legislation. I agree clotted, spot on, you make a very good point. At the end of the day, pilots are pilots not lawyers.

The whole FWA thing is a lawyers fest, with the worker left to ponder at their mercy. It is a bloody big mess created by lawyers for lawyers guaranteeing that the workers come off second best.

Qantas have the cash to pay for the advice from the likes of Freehills the unions have far less resources to compete, it all comes down to cash reserves, other words corporate resources v the little guy.

[Mr Leslie Chow]

I think if people in the cabin crew world were followed up, it would appear that managers were flown over to ports (LA for sure) PRIOR to that illustrious day to assist crew if they happened to be 'stuck' in port.

Surely this and also the courier company could easily be traced as to the validity of the claims.

Hopefully these twits are shown to be liars to the public.

[b55]

Just very good word play by the QF spin artists;
the "announcement" was made on the Saturday. Yes.
the "decision" was obviously made well before that day. Yes.

[ohallen]

As much as I would like it, anyone who thinks a judicial enquiry is going to happen is dreaming.

ASIC are sitting on the sidelines doing nothing (as usual) and with a senate enquiry that will lead to nothing (based on results so far) what is going to be the trigger?

With a protracted FWA process about to start, the Rat can throw as much legal firepower as it can pay for to wear down the opponents and that is another tactic.

AIPA have indicated they have funds but who knows about the others and how deep their pockets are. It is certain they wont be as deep as the Rats.

This is not looking good for anyone unless Senators can show some balls beyond some easy shots.

[gobbledock]

It is always interesting studying video footage, body language and a person's reaction when they are asked straight forward questions and they are trying to hide something.
Perhaps the readers of this thread could do the examine the full interview as posted by TIMA9X and ponder over this analogy and make their own conclusions:


a) A statement with a contraction is more likely to be truthful: “I didn't do it” instead of “I did not do it" . Notice any shortened statements ?

b) A guilty person gets defensive. An innocent person will often go on the offensive. Was somebody at times getting defensive?
c) A liar is uncomfortable facing his questioner/accuser and may turn his head or body away. Was somebody turning/tilting their head at times?
d) A liar will use your words to make answer to a question. When asked, “Did you eat the last cookie?” The liar answers, “No, I did not eat the last cookie.” Notice any answers containing the questioners wording?
e) Words may be garbled and spoken softly, and syntax and grammar may be off. In other words, their sentences will likely be muddled rather than emphasized. Notice any of that?

f) Physical expression will be limited and stiff, with few arm and hand movements. Hand, arm and leg movement are toward their own body so that the liar takes up less space. Notice any closed off actions, hunching and almost cradling the desk at times?

g) Eyes down right – For example, you have a neighbour who owes you some money. You find out that they just got paid and you want to suggest that they pay you back the money they owe you. But you are trying to be polite so you ask them, "Hey buddy did you get paid yet?" Their response is "Sorry, not yet. I don’t get paid for two more weeks” and they look to their right (your left). This would indicate that they are constructing or "making up" a lie.
h) Liars sometimes avoid lying by not making direct statements. They imply answers rather than deny something directly. Need I say any more??

[TIMA9X]

For the people off-shore who can't stream last nights lateline.

6ibNyNax1hI

some background from the senate inquiry

cyl7tlkHYM8

It is always interesting studying video footage, body language and a person's reaction when they are asked straight forward questions and they are trying to hide something.

Agree mate, crossed my mind as well..

[TIMA9X]

So many threads on here today (it's hard to keep up) represents the media are well and truly on the case, something is up at Qantas, the public are not buying it. Probably why the trolls on here have been working overtime.

6ibNyNax1hI



cyl7tlkHYM8

.

[clotted]

Please post a link to support your assumption.

There is no link to post. There is nothing written therefore there is no requirement for notice of lockout. Unlike, it is written that a union must give 3 days notice of implementing PIA.
It isn't written that you shouldn't walk under a semi trailer but that doesn't mean you should or you shouldn't : it's your choice whether you do or you don't and whether you give notice and how much.
As I said above, one of a number of flaws in the FWA laws.
Try asking a lawyer in the know what happens if agreement is reached in the mediation phase but is voted down by the union members; what happens then: binding arbitration? back to mediation? back to PIA? back to ballot approval for PIA? back to FWA approval for PIA? nothing? no EBA renewal? double dissolution? Collingwood wins the premiership?

[Ngineer]

The leprechaun is a lot of things and we could fill pages with it. But he is a farking genius the way he played this game.


He was not the mastermind behind all of this, that credit would go to teams of many people.

[neville_nobody]

There is nothing written therefore there is no requirement for notice of lockout.

So why then is there so much mention of the '72 hours notice' in the FWA hearing? The entire Qantas argument for the shutdown of the airline was that they had to give 72 hours notice and that it was a safety threat so therefore it is safer to ground the airline. If there is no requirement as you say the statements in the hearing are completely illogical. Their whole justification for the shutdown was that they had to give 72 hours notice.

If QF could have just locked out the workforce as you say why didn't they just do that rather than stuff around with a safety based shutdown?

[Conductor]

Clotted,

Keg is just like Senator X. Puffed up full of self importance

I don't think you could have got this more wrong. I don't agree with all of Keg's posts but he presents a reasoned argument in situations where many others have let the anger and agro take over. Maybe it's just self respect, not self-importance.

[piston broke again]

That'll never happen....the collingwood part that is ;)

[Keg]

Lol. Thanks conductor. Don't worry too much though. Clotted shows his or her level of maturity and sensible contribution to the discussion by playing the man, not the ball. It's something I'm pretty used to from his sort.

[clotted]

Nobody, You are one very confused individual.
Joyce gave the government 3 hrs notice of the grounding at 2 pm ,Saturday. He spoke with Albanese, Evans and Gillard's chief of staff. At 5pm he gave all who listened to his press conference approx 51 hrs notice of the proposed lockout. He said on the public record that the grounding was as the result of a safety assessment. Further, he said that the lockout was to bring the dispute to a head (didn't it how?) Fwa convened a hearing for 10 pm and at approx 2am Sunday adjourned any decision until after a hearing on Sunday afternoon. As a result of that hearing PIA was terminated in accordance with the law in the national interest (not because of red ties but because of the grounding).
Any notice that Joyce gave anyone of grounding and or lockout was purely a matter of his choosing.... not any legislated requirement.

[Livs Hairdresser]

Here you go, clotted. From the FWA website :

Unless the industrial action is in response to industrial action taken by the other side, at least three days' notice must be given. The written notice must state the nature of the intended action and the day it will begin.Somebody had hidden the relevant link on the front page :rolleyes:

[The The]

Notice requirements—employer response action
(5) Before an employer engages in employer response action for a proposed enterprise agreement, the employer must:

(a) give written notice of the action to each bargaining representative of an employee who will be covered by the agreement; and

(b) take all reasonable steps to notify the employees who will be covered by the agreement of the action.

Notice requirements—content

(6) A notice given under this section must specify the nature of the action and the day on which it will start.



There is NO requirement for the employer to give 72hrs notice of lockout. The 72hr is applicable for employee notice requirements.

Notice requirements—employee claim action
(1) Before a person engages in employee claim action for a proposed enterprise agreement, a bargaining representative of an employee who will be covered by the agreement must give written notice of the action to the employer of the employee.

(2) The period of notice must be at least:

(a) 3 working days; or

(b) if a protected action ballot order for the employee claim action specifies a longer period of notice for the purposes of this paragraph—that period of notice.

Notice of employee claim action not to be given until ballot results declared

(3) A notice under subsection (1) must not be given until after the results of the protected action ballot for the employee claim action have been declared.

[clotted]

Unless the industrial action is in response to industrial action taken by the other side,

Liv,
This exactly the point: the lockout WAS in response to industrial action taken by the other side (AIPA, TWU, AALEA).
Therefore no notice is required.

Notice requirements—employer response action
(5) Before an employer engages in employer response action for a proposed enterprise agreement, the employer must:

(a) give written notice of the action to each bargaining representative of an employee who will be covered by the agreement; and

(b) take all reasonable steps to notify the employees who will be covered by the agreement of the action.

Notice requirements—content

(6) A notice given under this section must specify the nature of the action and the day on which it will start.

This is what the couriers were placed on alert to carry out. This is what some people complained about being woken during the night when the written notice was delivered.



However , prime Senator X, Senator for Scotland Cameron and Senators for the TWU from WA and SA, to ask questions about obeying a law that doesn't exist while they are on the witch hunt on Thursday.

Hey Keg, I don't hear you complaining about possible bias on the part of the 2 senators from SA (Gallacher) and WA ( both ex TWU officials) and Senator Cameron (ex AMWU official). They wouldn't be union attack dogs now would they? At least Senator X is educated enough to be able to show respect in pursuing his line of questioning.

[Marauder]

Maybe AIPA and FWA needs to enlist the help of Virgin, ask them to check there bookings, when did the QF PR team book Virgin.

[max1]

That is exactly what he set out to do and more to the point said publicly that is what he set out to do. It is just the same in cricket when 10 batsmen are out or can't bat the innings is over...that's the rules.
Why is it then considered that people working to rule is industrial action?

[WheelsandBrakes]

So the fleet is grounded due to the "safety issue" that employees that are to to be locked out will go ballistic - ie, the pilots, engineers and ground staff? Why then were the engineers not sent home packing straight away? Instead they continued to work on the aircraft in the fleet - as well as the pollies BBJ - over the rest of the weekend and on the Monday until the lock-out was rescinded.

So the grounding was not really due to any perceived "safety issue" was it AJ?

[Iron Bar]

W&B you are quite correct.

That exact question was put to Strambi during the FWA hearing on Sat night. He was unable to clearly answer or explain why the engineers were still in the hangar but suggested they must have had suitable supervision.

Executive weasels ALL OF THEM.

[gobbledock]

Great stuff isn't it? Strambi holds the AOC, yet cannot answer a safety related question as to why engineers were still working on aircraft after the lockout commenced, which by the way was instigated due to 'safety concerns?
So the CEO who is the accountable person does not advise the AOC holder Strambi, nor does he tell the Board of whom some ironically advise senior management safety matters?

Sorry, where or what is CASA doing again?

[TIMA9X]

Well, in this clip Albanese, has stolen AJs lines, saying "progress has been made" and there is "certainty for the traveling public over the holiday period."


rqlLNREN8oY


meanwhile, this story breaks today in the smh...


Qantas union raises spectre of holiday flight disruptions

Jessica Wright, Kelly Burke

November 23, 2011


QANTAS passengers could be stranded during the Christmas holidays after a leading unionist refused to rule out further industrial action against the airline.
The national secretary of the Transport Workers Union, Tony Sheldon, said yesterday that his union intended to negotiate and proceed with the compulsory Fair Work Australia arbitration process in the dispute between the airline and workers.


But Mr Sheldon accused Qantas of using ''militant'' tactics, and said union members would ''exercise their rights'' if they were dissatisfied with the process.

''If the company refuses to negotiate with us in good faith, leading up to and through the arbitration process, then there is every possibility that there would be further disruptions that would occur in the aviation industry,'' he said.
''We are not looking for that fight, but the workforce is prepared to stand up for its rights.''


Long-haul pilots with Qantas have demanded a judicial inquiry into whether the airline's chief executive, Alan Joyce, misled a Senate inquiry into the grounding of domestic and international fleets three weeks ago.
The call for the inquiry by the Australian and International Pilots Association followed a report that private couriers were booked to deliver lockout notices before the Qantas annual meeting last month.


Mr Joyce told the Senate inquiry under oath that the decision to ground all aircraft on November 1 was made on the morning of October 29, the day after the company's annual shareholder meeting.


But two couriers who work for Direct Couriers and remain anonymous supplied written statements to the ABC's Lateline program saying in the days before the Qantas grounding, drivers were booked to deliver lockout notices. They said that on October 27 they were asked to work on Sunday, October 30, to help deliver lockout notices to about 6000 Qantas staff.
There are mounting allegations that Mr Joyce was planning to lock out staff long before October 29, but kept the plans secret from shareholders.
He said there had been contingencies made for a lockout but denied making firm plans.


''There are going to be conspiracy theories. The fact is the decision was made on the Saturday,'' Mr Joyce said.
Since talks between Qantas and three of its unions have collapsed, Fair Work Australia will arbitrate on all outstanding matters, which could take up to six months.


The unions are furious the dispute has gone to compulsory arbitration. Mr Sheldon said yesterday the union would decide ''later this week whether we appeal the court decision from three weeks ago''.


He said unions would need to have Fair Work's termination ruling overturned in the Federal Court before they could seek further protected action.


The Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union, which is a Qantas shareholder, also expects the airline to hand over its share register tomorrow. The union plans to contact the airline's top 5000 shareholders in an attempt to muster the 100 or more required to call an extraordinary meeting

Read more: Qantas union raises spectre of holiday flight disruptions (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-union-raises-spectre-of-holiday-flight-disruptions-20111122-1nsze.html#ixzz1eS6oJEH8)
Well as I said before, the whole thing is a great big mess, so many mixed messages. I agree with the AIPA call for a judicial inquiry. FWA has lost a lot of credibility as the umpire for this dispute keeping in mind the Victorian nurses thingy which has headed off in another direction. A judicial inquiry is needed to clear the air, there are too many questions that need some answers, before it can all go forward IMHO.

[aveng]

The reason for the grounding was apparently for safety reasons.
What were these safety reasons?
They were worried about what the Pilots and Engineers would do - oh hang on, we (Engineers) were performing work packages on the aircraft they were worried about on Saturday and Sunday.:ugh:

[Prong Wallop]

The gnomish irishman has yet again been found to be guilding the lilly when tested.


Qantas death-threat probe ... dies
Matt O'Sullivan
November 23, 2011 - 11:53AM

The NSW Police have, without explanation, dropped their investigation into alleged death threats made against Qantas's chief executive Alan Joyce and other senior managers.

Complaints from Qantas about threatening letters and emails led to police forming a taskforce during the escalating industrial dispute with unions representing long-haul pilots, aircraft engineers and ground crew including baggage handlers.

But NSW Police have confirmed that Strike Force Barrine – made up of officers from Botany Bay Local Area Command – has decided not to continue the investigation.
Advertisement: Story continues below

A police spokesman would not elaborate on the reasons that the investigation had ended.

"As far as the investigation is concerned, it was alive and now it's not," he said.

The Australian Federal Police have also confirmed that they were "not investigating any specific threats made against Qantas executives and employees".

The alleged threats received widespread media coverage in early October, but unions questioned whether they were a "PR stunt" by the airline to win public support.

Qantas contacted police after Mr Joyce received a threatening letter in May, which contained the name and address of the author. The police later deemed that the letter did not constitute a death threat, although the author was spoken to and the "matter finalised".

Police were also notified on October 5 about an email sent to Mr Joyce which contained in its subject line the words "death threats". However, the body copy of the email did not use those words.

Other matters referred to police included complaints that a Qantas employee had received a threatening letter on September 27 and several hang-up phone calls at their home.

The taskforce also attempted to "confirm reports that were allegedly made to company security officers about malicious damage to vehicles parked in a car park".

In early October as the bitter industrial dispute was escalating, Mr Joyce sent a memo to the airline's 35,000-strong workforce informing them that he had referred to police incidents whereby executives had "received menacing correspondence, including to their homes".

The memo stated: "Those who are in the business of using threats, violence and intimidation to obtain their industrial ends should know this: these tactics are cowardly and deplorable. They will not work. Anyone who is caught will face the full consequences."

Mr Joyce later said that Qantas decided to go public at the time because "the bullying and intimidation [of staff] seemed to be going to a new level".

But police say the matter will go no further.

[The Kelpie]

Qantas Responses to questions on notice have been posted onto the aph website.

Apart from the carefully worded responses apparently Jetstar need additional time to compile the rosters that Senator X asked for.

Surely they have already been published some time ago and it is just a case of putting it through a photocopier!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[teresa green]

Lads, was I was the last one to know that the lead singer in Iron Maiden, Bruce Dickinson, is a senior airline capt.? Hows that for moonlighting! Off subject I know but thought it would give you some cause for optimism, thats if you can sing of course.

[gobbledock]

Qantas Responses to questions on notice have been posted onto the aph website.
Apart from the carefully worded responses apparently Jetstar need additional time to compile the rosters that Senator X asked for.
Kelpie, you are spot on. How long does it take to reproduce the rosters? I made a post almost immediately when the Senator asked the roster questions of Brucey, and I suggested that any staff who had copies or originals better hide them or save them, or forward them through to Senator Xenophon, I am hoping they did.

They were worried about what the Pilots and Engineers would do - oh hang on, we (Engineers) were performing work packages on the aircraft they were worried about on Saturday and Sunday.:ugh: Aveng I couldnt agree more, why were Engineers still allowed to work when the whole 'grounding/lockout'whatever you wish to call it, was actioned due to supposed safety concerns?

Lads, was I was the last one to know that the lead singer in Iron Maiden, Bruce Dickinson, is a senior airline capt.? Hows that for moonlighting! Off subject I know but thought it would give you some cause for optimism, thats if you can sing of course. TG, great band, one of the true pioneers of the metal movement, Bruce went from a love of one type of metal to another:ok:. Now if only QF would play some onboard music like Iron Maiden, Dead Kennedys, Judas Priest and early Black Sabbath!
Incidentally, 'Eddie the beast master' reminds me of Wirthless. Same stylist.

[Keg]

Please oh please can we turn off the stupid fricking setting that changes Face B.O.O.K into FacePPRUNE and T.W.I.T.T.E.R into PPRUNE? It was interesting for a bit but with recent articles it's just bloody stupid. :ugh: :rolleyes: :mad:

[ohallen]

The Senate responses just smell of legalise so they continue to play games with everyone and stick to the obviously well advised strategy of differentiating between planning and implementing.

The fact is that this happened on a Saturday and any business requiring a large commitment of resources to effect "planning" needed some level of assurance before proceeding to have large resources on hand. You ever tried to get a courier on a Saturday let alone the number needed for this game???Similarly, it may be interesting to see when proofs were submitted to printers or how plans were "developed".

There needs to be some forensic digging here and not just token acceptance of what they say (and dont say) given the stakes involved.

This is all in addition to despatch of staff to overseas ports.

Everyone knows what happened here, everyone knows when the mindset was firmed up, everyone knows a process was implemented to cover some collective rear ends and now we need some Senators with the fortitude to dig until the truth is revealed as the credibility of any words from these Executive mouths and highly paid consultants is very low based on history to date.

If you dont believe that, ask why they answered in such a manner the Senate questions.The answers raise almost as many questions as they answered.

[gobbledock]

Is da little fella keeping an eye on the Middle East? Those rascally oil loving desert dwellers always have the potential to upset the plans of an airline CEO hell bent on world aviation domination !

Oil heading for $US200 a barrel?
David Lee Smith

November 22, 2011


In May 2008, as crude oil steamed toward an all-time high of $US147 per barrel, a Goldman Sachs group predicted that the price could move as high as $US200 within the following 24 months.
Instead, during the second half of the year its price rolled over and began a free fall to near $US30 as December brought the eventful year to a close.
It now appears, however, that Goldman might just have been early in its prediction rather than simply wrong.
Advertisement: Story continues below
Oh, I know, light, sweet crude is currently trading near $US100 a barrel, and it would require a host of major events to drive it to double that level, especially during 2012.
But almost unnoticed is a price increase by nearly a third in just the past month. I'm wagering that a host of the potentially catastrophic events could involve Iraq and its neighbour to the east, Iran. The result, almost certainly, would be a steep escalation of crude levies.
Swimming in oil?
For now, energy affairs in war-torn Iraq are progressing swimmingly. The country's production has grown by leaps and bounds since major oil companies from around the world – beginning with a BP-led consortium, and later including ExxonMobil and Royal Dutch Shell – began accepting the government's unusual contractual terms and started reinvigorating its major (albeit waning) fields.
The companies have boosted Iraqi production from a couple of thousand barrels a day to 2.6 million daily barrels in just over a year.
Even more impressive are the seemingly reasonable notions that the country could reach 9 million barrels a day within a few years. That number assumes, however, that the companies are able to plug away unabated. And therein lies the rub.
The lurking dangers
Last month, US President Barack Obama announced a complete withdrawl of all US forces from Iraq, thereby making room for as many Iranians as that country's President Ahmadinejad wishes to deploy to his neighbour's territory. The Wall Street Journal called the announcement "a disappointment for US defence officials".
Further, ExxonMobil has ruffled feathers in Iraq by becoming the first member of Big Oil to reach an agreement to search for oil and gas in the country's semi-autonomous Kurdistan region. The Kurdish area is thought to hold as much as 45 billion barrels of oil and 200,000 billion cubic feet of gas, amounts approximately comparable to those in Libya.
Obviously, the primary concern involves the potential for widespread conflicts between the companies working in Iraq and those that wish to spread their efforts to the Kurdistan region. According to the Iraq Oil Ministry's Abdul Mahdi al-Ameedi: "Exxon should choose between either continuing with its deal with the Kurdistan Regional Government or lose its contract in southern Iraq."
Potential strife
Clearly more danger lies in Iran's development of nuclear weaponry, which – if it weren't already widely known – was documented this month in a United Nations report. Beyond that, concerns are mounting almost daily regarding the potential of Israeli airstrikes (with or without US support) against Iran's nuclear facilities.
And finally, within Iraq, minimally publicised Shiite-Sunni factionalism appears to run the risk of spilling over into a renewed civil war with the attendant danger of possibly drawing in Shiite Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia - neither of whom are especially fond of each other to begin with.
At the same time, with the US about to complete its role as a peacekeeper in the country, Maliki has yet to fill a number of ministry posts, given his concern about a coup emanating from potentially disloyal security units. As such, he remains personally in charge of the ministries of defence, interior, and national security.
Foolish take-away
I could continue to discuss potential difficulties in the oil-rich Persian Gulf area, along with other exporting countries, such as Libya and Nigeria.
But you get the point: The Middle East and north Africa - and especially the all-important Iraq-Iran-Saudi Arabia region – remain very much a tinderbox, with the potential to drive crude prices to stratospheric levels.




Read more: Oil heading for $US200 a barrel? (http://www.theage.com.au/business/oil-heading-for-us200-a-barrel-20111122-1ns4b.html#ixzz1eVUWqpGq)

[Mstr Caution]

I had a chat with a mate today in the commercial printing business & queried him as to AJ’s version as to the “lockout letters”.

First of all he looked at previous letters from the company. He noted they were addressed with the individuals name & mailing address. They also included a bar code & in some instance a staff number. The quality of the print appeared very good, that being a commercial standard. In previous instances correspondence was also in an envelope that was printed with the individual name & address on it.

This style of letter would have been produced externally & he stated that with his experience in the industry would probably take 3 to 4 days to produce & mail out. That is, if a printing slot was immediately available to do the print run.

Keeping in mind there were approximately 9000 AIPA, ALAEA & TWU members to receive these letters & a commercial printer generating 180 pages per minute & including the automatic fold function into a “DL” or two fold format to fit into a standard envelope.

The standard 3 to 4 days would need some extra time to print the material & in the “lockout” letter case, print the stickers with names & addresses on them. Then send the material to a mail house, where the 30 plus workers would then place the stickers on the envelopes, place the letters in the envelopes then sort the mail ready to be sent to couriers around the country. The sorting process per geographical location would take a significant amount of time.

Keep in mind the letters would then leave the mail house & be sent to couriers all around the nation with the associated travel time to get there. Then the couriers would need to collect the said mail & start their delivery run.

So in his opinion 3 to 4 days minimum, if all was going well & using external commercial hired help.

Compare this to the AJ story of the lockout letters, after authorizing the print & mail out mid morning on Saturday 29th Oct for delivery the next day (a Sunday)

My mate stated the print quality in the case of my letter was average. Not something that he would expect from a commercial printer. There was no name or address on it, nor staff number or barcode. It raised his eyebrows because it was different to previous company correspondence. No, printed name & address on the envelope (just a sticker), again different to previous correspondence.

In his opinion it looked like the printing of the letters & the mail house functions may have been done in house. That being photocopies of a standard letter, then a print run of the address labels. He knows people in the industry & he reckons the best copiers QF would have would probably only do about 120 letters per minute & wasn’t sure whether they had the automatic fold capability. It would then take considerable time to then fold the letters (if required), place them in an envelope, stick the name & address label on the front. Then sort the mail by location ready for distribution to the couriers.

The conclusion he draw from this is because of the time frame taken to use external contractors plus possible leaks to the public of the impending lockout. The print & mail house functions would have been likely to be done in house & would have taken a lot of time to do.

We discussed why would some people get lockout letters & others not?

He stated, when companies try to do print runs like this in house, they’ll make mistakes.

Sound familiar? Some staff getting no lockout letters, other staff getting return to work letters sent to pilots with letters inside referencing an engineering EBA.

If I was AJ & an external company was contracted to do my legally required print run & mail out & the above happened, I’d want my money back!!

My mate went on further to say that there would be a trail of evidence after a 9000 letter print run. If it was printed externally, he said large commercial printers would be attached to a computer. There would be evidence of the document sent to the printer & the computer keeps records of the print run to ensure accurate billing, referencing the date, time & amount of pages. If it was a copier & done in house a technician could access the copier & view the print jobs & look at date, time of printing & number of pages.

MC

[UPPERLOBE]

The first 3 mins or so is the bit to watch...

Australia's Dumbo Boards & Mates - YouTube

[breakfastburrito]

Nice work MC, thanks for the "insiders perspective" on the process. Now time for the forensic investigation with these leads.

[Jabawocky]

Has anyone posted this yet?...yes I am lazy and not trawling though several pages, you can enjoy it again if you have seen it before. :)

YPIqZi8E2-I&feature=share

[73to91]

Very interesting MC.

According to the Fin Review today (Thurs 24th pg 3) The response from the company reveals that printing of the lockout notices to employees, undertaken by Focus Press, started on the morning of Saturday, October 29 "on the proviso that the job may be withdrawn at any time". "Printing did not commence until 11am to 11.30am after advice that a decision had been made by the QANTAS CEO," the company said.

[Keg]

I wonder why focus press had the spare capacity on a Saturday morning to take a job like this? Did they know it was coming? Had they been put on notice on previous weeks also?

[QF94]

I wonder why focus press had the spare capacity on a Saturday morning to take a job like this? Did they know it was coming? Had they been put on notice on previous weeks also?

There is no other explanation than a week or so advance notice was given and had the letters printed off before he made that fateful decision on 29 October. It would be impossible for AJ to wake Saturday morning, convene a phone hook-up meeting with the board at 1030 and advise them of his decision to ground the fleet and lockout the workers, then call Focus Press and say "Hey, I need 9,000 letters (with individual's names and addresses) printed pronto in the next half-hour to hour", placed in QANTAS envelopes (I still have mine), then sent to couriers around the country to be delivered to the recipient recalcitrant employees by the next day at the latest.

I received my notice of IA termination two days after the event by way of express post.

Unfortunately, nothing will come of this but more cyberspace and print media being taken up with what should be done to AJ for what he did to the company, its customers and the government.

[V-Jet]

The answer from the Irish 1/3 will always be:

'We had planned for a range of options, and thank you for bringing this up again, but lets be very clear about this. It was only on the Saturday morning that we decided to ground the airline....'

Keen observers may note use of Royal 'we'. Although 'wee' might be more in keeping with the stature of the quotee..

[The The]

Lads, was I was the last one to know that the lead singer in Iron Maiden, Bruce Dickinson, is a senior airline capt.? Hows that for moonlighting! Off subject I know but thought it would give you some cause for optimism, thats if you can sing of course.

Unfortunately he is also in a position of trying to save an airline.

Bruce Dickinson airline resue (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/23/iron-maiden-bruce-dickinson-airline-astraeus-rescue)

There is also a PPrune thread about it

here (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/469670-astraeus-no-more.html)

[meloz]

Brian Clarke & John Dawe lampoon Qantas CEO - YouTube

Meloz

[ACT Crusader]

There is nothing written therefore there is no requirement for notice of lockout.

So why then is there so much mention of the '72 hours notice' in the FWA hearing? The entire Qantas argument for the shutdown of the airline was that they had to give 72 hours notice and that it was a safety threat so therefore it is safer to ground the airline. If there is no requirement as you say the statements in the hearing are completely illogical. Their whole justification for the shutdown was that they had to give 72 hours notice.

If QF could have just locked out the workforce as you say why didn't they just do that rather than stuff around with a safety based shutdown?

So locking out the majority of LH pilots, ground staff/baggage handlers and LAMEs, would have had no effect and kept things running as normal?

The s424 FWA hearing really wasn't the forum for airing all this because that was not the substantive issue at play. It's a legitimate concern and I'd bet the house that AiPA are preparing questioning for their Fed Court application. There's the opportunity to ask some questions about the evidence of "heightened safety risks".

Also for the earlier arguments about notice period for a lockout, there isn't any prescribed in the legislation. The reasoning is because its a "response" to action that is taken. The Greens moved a Bill in the parliament to have the 3 day notice period for lockouts. I don't think it will get anywhere personally.

I think one for the lawyers is the interpretation of s424(1) that says: "FWA must make an order suspending or terminating protected industrial action for a proposed enterprise agreement..."etc.

Is there solid precedent that FWA should have terminated "all" protected industrial action. This isn't about red ties vs lockout, it's about the ambiguity in that provision where no distinction is made between employee claim and employer response action.

[Toolpants]

qantas-twitter_downfall.wmv - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTCwPlWzZnQ&feature=youtu.be)

[TIMA9X]

Airline had no option but to take a stand, says Future Fund chief


Read more: Airline had no option but to take a stand, says Future Fund chief (http://www.smh.com.au/national/airline-had-no-option-but-to-take-a-stand-says-future-fund-chief-20111124-1nwzn.html#ixzz1edOKeoil)


THE Future Fund chief, David Murray, has backed Qantas in the dispute with its workforce, saying unless companies like the airline tackle entrenched union privilege Australia risks the same fate as Europe.
And he says the government is aping Europe by borrowing to buy votes.
''My European banking counterparts tell me they can't cut jobs without offering three years redundancy,'' he told a forecasting conference in Sydney.
Advertisement: Story continues below
''We are creeping towards that in the new industrial relations framework. It gives unions a right to bargain in areas [that were] traditionally the management's prerogative.
''Australia started out after the Second World War making work arrangements a little bit more reliable, introducing the rule of law, but the process has gone too far - it gets to the point of unaffordability.
''Qantas management have no option but to do what they are doing. They are running an unviable airline


Typical banker speak...

[ferris]

So, a company making (good) profits is 'unviable', but financial institutions that lose so much money they require government bailouts are worthy of executive bonuses in the millions.....


there is something really wrong with this picture.....

[breakfastburrito]

The nerve of a someone who CREATED MONEY OUT OF THIN AIR AND CHARGES INTEREST ON IT enabling him to reap millions.
The banks have been the great enablers of the collapse in Europe. Goldman Sachs helped Greece "cook the books" to hide debt off-balance sheet to enter the Euro, French & German banks were lend until their leverage was >50:1 to sovereigns. It is this accumulation of debt in the system that is the problem. The bankers aided the politicians to hand out money they didn't have, the unions scooped up what they could for their members.

The financiers are the most unproductive parasites in the economy, sucking enormous profits from the real economy by simply indebting the populous either via mortgages (US,GBP,AU) or socialist government spending (Europe, China) spending. It is the banker sucking the life force from the workers, not the unions.
The unions, they also have a case to answer, but problems they caused are at least an order of magnitude less that those of the financiers. I have a whole thread running on this:Globalisation debt & Banking (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/456639-globalisation-debt-banking.html).

[Sunfish]

David Murray has made a fool of himself.

Throughout the last decade, Qantas has consistently said that it has failed to make an "Adequate return" on its capital without specifying what an "Adequate return" would be.

Similarly, Qantas has consistently refused to state what the "Structural Issues" are with respect to its employees that are affecting productivity.

One must therefore conclude that the only "structural" issue is that the employees are paid too much and must therefore be replaced with something cheaper and of lower quality.

This conclusion has been bolstered by the fact that Unions have consistently offered to revamp work practices in the interests of increased productivity, only to be rebuffed and stonewalled by management.

[ampclamp]

David Murray says entrenched union privilege must be tackled. Well Mr Murray the unions, ie working class people, have been industrially neutered for years. Having to sell your ar$e for a CPI payrise while you fail to slam Joyce's 71% . No doubt that was fully justified.

Unlike the strongest union, that is the clubby board structure of Australian corporations, who like Mr Murray fail to see the glaring hypocrisy of this statement. In an age where executive packages have outstripped average weekly earnings by many multiples Murray has confirmed his bloody ignorance.
Get out if the boardroom and into the real world.

[QF94]

Similarly, Qantas has consistently refused to state what the "Structural Issues" are with respect to its employees that are affecting productivity.


In the same manner that they have refused to outline how the international business has been losing $216million a year. I have outlined in previous posts the loads they carry out of Sydney and an average out of Australia. It was made to sound like they carry 18% loads, when in fact their load factor averages around the 72% to 73%. Sure they may carry only 18 out of 100 passengers out of the country, but it has been failed to be mentioned that QANTAS simply does not fly to as many destinations or hubs (21 in total and diminishing) as its competitors.

The other interesting point is what the international side of the business carries. It does carry J* and also the "flagship" Frequent Flyer program. People accumulate points by way of credit card or flying on partner carriers or flying domestic sectors such as SYD-CBR or even to the regional areas, then use the points on international routes. How are these points paid for when they are used? The international side of the business absorbs the cost of the seat by trading a saleable seat for points that have been paid to the FF program.

[Mstr Caution]

The AGM was over, the sun was shining & Saturday 29th October 2011 was shaping up to be a beautiful day.

Meanwhile AJ had awoken from his slumber & decided today was the day to ground a National Airline.

A board meeting was hastily called for early Saturday morning & by the end of the meeting at 10:30am. AJ had the full endorsement of the board to lockout staff & due to safety reasons ground the airline.

What was the first thing AJ did per Senate Inquiry Transcripts?

He authorised a printing company in the Sydney suburb of Stathfield South to immediately commence production of the staff lockout notices!

It wouldn’t be a problem because ******** & his work buddies had already been rostered to work that day. They don’t regularly work Saturdays, but today was special. Some ad hoc work at been scheduled & some big dollars had been negotiated. They were standing by for that call with A4 paper & commercial printers ink ready to go.

As per senate inquiry evidence the printers had been informed to get to work by 11:30am. It wouldn’t be a problem though, cause they were expecting that call sometime mid morning.

The Lockout notices had already been prepared and checked over by the Airlines Legal Department. All the preparation including risk assessments had also been completed over the previous three weeks.


What did AJ do next?

According to Senate Inquiry transcripts he then commenced calling his Executive Team.

There was a big problem, Boston Bruce was meeting with his Architects!

According to AJ’s Senate evidence as follows:

AJ: “I could not even contact Bruce at the start! Bruce was actually with his Architects planning the building of a house. We had to track him down at 12 O’clock to see what was taking place. THEN we started the CALLS and MAKING the decisions.”

Lucky AJ had the foresight to call the Printers early in the piece.

The Executive Team & Boston Bruce would just have to wait till the printers had got the green light.

The Lockout Letters were prepared, just waiting for that next call. The instructions were stay on standby, either the letters would be passed on to previously booked Couriers . Or, if the Media Conference was cancelled due the Government intervening a change of plan was in order. Those same Printers would be ordered to destroy those letters by 5pm.

No problem though, they were going to be paid for their services either way.

If the Government intervenes, those letters must be destroyed1

No evidence of an impending staff lockout must exist. No problem though, cause the guys in South Strathfield already know the job might be to print then immediately destroy the material.

Lunchtime passes & some 3 ½ hours after deciding to lockout the staff & ground an airline someone declares, “****…. who’s called Julia?”


It’s low on the priorities though, because the printing issue at South Strathfield has already been attended to & the team are preparing for the 5pm Media Conference.

OW attempts to call the Prime Minister at 2pm, but can only get hold of the PM’s Chief of Staff.

Seems the PM is a tad busy entertaining visiting Heads of State at CHOGM in Perth.

While OW is trying to get hold of the PM, the CEO decides to make a few extra calls. Again per Senate Inquiry Transcripts indicating call times of 2pm. AJ contacts Anthony Albenese, Tourism Minister Martin Ferguson & Workplace Minister Chris Evans.

AJ takes a short break, its been a busy morning!

Perhaps calling the PM & Government Ministers was an oversight, at least he authorised the call to the Printers by 11:30am.

“What, we forgot to call CASA? ………****”

CASA is notified of the decision to lockout the employees & ground the airline at 3pm. Some 3 ½ hours after calling the Printers, alternatively 4 ½ hours after deciding to ground the airline!

“Team, Have we forgotten anyone?” The time is now 4:45pm & 15 minutes prior to the Media Conference.

“Oh, the Pilots?.……****”

“Sue B, get on the phone & calls the AIPA President, tell him we’re locking out the pilots who’ve been wearing red ties”.

It’s approaching 5pm, ready for the Media Conference, it’s all systems go. Camera’s are rolling.

Again, per AJ’s Senate Inquiry evidence, at 5pm the boys in Strathfield are called again. Tell them not to destroy the lockout letters & they are good to go with the couriers, we’re going to air on Sky News right now.

MC

[LandIT]

... and then, later...

oh drat - better stop taking bookings on the website!

!! really well planned then !!

[Mstr Caution]

Companies must learn from Qantas Twitter gaffe and TripAdvisor blackmails - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/social-media/8912701/Companies-must-learn-from-Qantas-Twitter-gaffe-and-TripAdvisor-blackmails.html)

The promotions team at Qantas, the Australian airline still trying to recover three weeks on from a mass strike which grounded its entire fleet, decided to ‘engage positively’ with customers on Twitter.

**bolding my emphasis**

Dear Ms Barnett,

You mentioned the QF Twitter Promotion being "bombarded" with comments. Perhaps you should check the facts before publishing your own articles. Otherwise you "may" be bombarded with emails correcting your comments.

MC

ps: Not sure why, but the term Twittter has been automatically changed to read PPRUNE

[ejectx3]

No-one knows why but pprune is like communist China and thinks Spacebook and Big Hitter are threats to its existence. Sort of like Skynet becoming self aware or Hal locking out that spaceman.

[bankrunner]

I can deal with the failbook/twatter word replacements. At least it's not replacing "CASA" with "the people's champions" :E

[ohallen]

FORMER prime minister Paul Keating has attacked the Gillard government's handling of the Qantas dispute, saying it should have called Alan Joyce's bluff by refusing to intervene.
He said rather than refer the dispute to Fair Work Australia, he would have let Mr Joyce, Qantas's chief executive, sit there for a week or two.
“The chances are there would have been no more Alan Joyce - a very good chance,” Mr Keating told Sky News last night.
“Having taken his airline out, how was he going to get it back?
“I think the shareholders would have moved and then the board would have had to do something. The unions on the other hand would have had to do something and we would have had a bargained outcome.
“Instead of that we had the commonwealth deciding it, which saved Joyce and let the unions off the hook.”


This is an interesting view and perhaps reflects an opportunity lost.

Imagine a CEO sitting there trying to explain how much money he was losing on such a grand scale.

[mmciau]

Nah, he's just suffering ADD! Mr 17%!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


Mike

[T28D]

As usual Paul Keating is wise after the event, his observation may well have been true, but it wasn't tested so we will never know.

A contrary view however is that QF must have had a green light for its actions from its shareholders and bankers or its actions would have been reckless in the extreme and shareholders would have extracted reparations really quickly.

My bet is the action was well planned and executed with prcision immediately after the AGM to get best effect and get it out of the way before the Xmas high season statred.

Nothing like a celebration of general goodwill to remove the bad memory, look now the QF lockout is not news any more.

[peterc005]

Sometimes Paul Keating shows incredible foresight and insight.

He saw the rise of Asia 25 years ago and moved Australia in that direction, which can be seen now as the right move.

Keating floated the dollar, brought in centralised industrial arbitration and started to remove barriers that prevented Australia from being internationally competitive.

Hawke was always more of the popularist, while Keating was more "this is the right thing to do, **** it, let's do it ...".

My favourite all time one-liner in federal parliament was in a heated debate when Keating referred to the conservatives as the "idiot sons of the Squatocracy".

Hansard has never been as much fun to watch since Keating left.

[Oxidant]

Strambi said the pilots' union, the licensed engineers' union and the Transport Workers Union were unable to take industrial action "for the period of (the Fair Work) arbitration and for the period of the EBA determination", which could be up to four years.



Qantas does deal with cabin crew | WORLD News (http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/qantas-does-deal-cabin-crew-4652821)

Hmmmmm....

[theheadmaster]

An interesting opinion from Keating, but I fail to see how it would have worked. The section of the Fair Work Act that the Minister used for an application to terminate industrial action could have been used by the Minister, the unions involved, or the employer. Qantas could have made the same application as the minister, using the same section of the Act, and had the same outcome.

I would have thought the political ramifications of the government not acting would have been bad. I believe the shutdown (not he lockout) was a political move to force the governments hand to act. If it did not act, or acted in a manner that showed flaws in the act would have been destabilising to the government. This would have assisted the coalition parties who I believe were in cahoots with Qantas.

I suspect Keating has more political insight than I do however...

[ohallen]

Oxidant, is it just possible that the Rat is not ready for a scrap with SH until they despatch the bulk of LH offshore and then they will be ready to Jetstar the domestic side of things.

Not even they can cope with two separate fronts at this stage but my money is it is just a matter of time unless the current Exec are booted.

[unionist1974]

Always liked PK but he his becoming a monday morning quarterback. lets face it Paul you are a has been. If only that nasty JH had not come along. How great you could have been!

[TIMA9X]

forgive me for the duplicate post of this video (for those who have already seen it) but it was always meant for this thread, it was where a lot of the inspiration for it came from.

by ferris; post 1477 So, a company making (good) profits is 'unviable', but financial institutions that lose so much money they require government bailouts are worthy of executive bonuses in the millions.....and from Worrels of the wild post 131.....If it wasn't already obvious, it shows what little regard Qantas management has for their customers, to throw people off aircraft with no notice in the middle of a weekend. The unions gave plenty of warning about upcoming disruptions. This is like the world's biggest Christmas baggie snap strike.
sc2h_kA7mfU

[gobbledock]

Has anybody got any current profit/loss data, raw is preferable, that they can share, from the time period between the grounding until now? I would like to see how much moolah the little leprechaun stripped away from the groups books by flexing his wee muscles and grounding Hudson Fysh's legacy? He has already seen the companys overall value decline by 71%.
Surely there would be a plethora of consultants and financial analysts measuring the outcome of the wee fella's tanty?

And where oh where is Frau Wirthless? I have not seen him, err her around Mascot lately?

[Sarcs]

Looks like Joyce is going to cop another pineapple reaming on Monday!:rolleyes:

Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Inquiry into Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011; Qantas Sale Amendment (Still Call Australia Home) Bill 2011: Public hearings and t (http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/rat_ctte/aircraft_crew_2011/hearings/060212.htm)

Who's shout for the popcorn?:ok:

[V-Jet]

And where oh where is Frau Wirthless? aka Traudl Junge:)

Looks like Joyce is going to cop another pineapple reaming on Monday!:rolleyes: - I just hope he doesn't get the opportunity to immediately launch into minutiae on his 'comfortable' subjects (fuel burn, tyre tread wear, OHS courses and the like) as he did last time just to burn up minutes. The good senators should be wearing black hats and not waste time before getting on with the job of sentencing the deceased.

He set himself up to fall with his previous answers, I will be preying the hurdles are high enough for him to at least struggle badly this time around.

I would love to see a good barrister at work with those two. Though of course not in the biblical sense:)

[unionist1974]

Really is thatso?

[Taildragger67]

I would love to see a good barrister at work with those two

... "with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch"... :}

[blow.n.gasket]

Just hours to go for the vote.
Vote away fellow ppruners


Grounding 'positive' for Qantas brand: Joyce (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/grounding-positive-for-qantas-brand-joyce-20120213-1t0nz.html)

[psycho joe]

If the grounding was good for QANTAS, then business at ANSETT must be positively booming. :ugh:

[TIMA9X]

Pilots to challenge Fair Work ban

Matt O'Sullivan

March 5, 2012

QANTAS long-haul pilots have vowed not to take stop-work action this year if they are successful in appealing the ruling several months ago to ban industrial action in the aftermath of the airline's controversial grounding of its entire fleet.
The long-haul pilots' union will mount its case today before three judges in the Federal Court in Sydney against Fair Work's termination of the industrial action.
Their appeal, which has been expedited, is seen as a legal manoeuvre aimed at giving them a fallback position if they lose when Fair Work makes a binding decision on their dispute with Qantas later this year.
Advertisement: Story continues below
The pilots will argue that Fair Work ''exceeded its power'' when it included them in the decision to terminate the industrial disputes between Qantas and two other unions representing licensed aircraft engineers and ground crews.
The vice-president of the Australian and International Pilots' Association, Richard Woodward, said his union was the only one of four parties, including Qantas, not to resort to disruptive action last year.
"AIPA made it clear throughout 2011 that our struggle was against damaging management policy and not loyal Qantas passengers,'' he said. "That is why we did not take stop-work action last year, and that's why we will not take stop-work action this year either, even if we win this case.''
The pilots' action last year involved alerting passengers to their concerns through in-flight announcements and wearing red ties instead of company-issued black ones.
Mr Woodward said the pilots' actions ''did not affect the economy in any way'', which was why it would claim that the industrial umpire ''got it wrong in terminating our action''.
"We believe this is a vital principle to fight for. Just because [the Qantas chief executive, Alan] Joyce chose the nuclear option does not mean that our legitimate and legal campaign should have been ended too.''
The long-running disputes between Qantas and the engineers' union, the Transport Workers Union and the long-haul pilots were brought to an abrupt end in early November when they were terminated by Fair Work.
Although the engineers have settled, the disputes between Qantas and the TWU, which represents baggage handlers, and the pilots' union over new enterprise agreements are heading to binding arbitration before Fair Work commissioners later this month and in June respectively.
The TWU and Qantas have shown little sign in negotiations recently of settling parts of their dispute before the commissioners begin to hear their claims on March 19.




Read more: Pilots to challenge Fair Work ban (http://www.smh.com.au/business/pilots-to-challenge-fair-work-ban-20120304-1ub1r.html#ixzz1oBkElSMs)
Let's hope some common sense prevails....
.

[hotnhigh]

Liv's back!!!!!!!
Qantas spokeswoman Olivia Wirth noted the federal government had said it would vigorously oppose the pilots’ union’s legal challenge and that the airline would be supporting the government’s position.

Read more: Pilots to challenge Fair Work ban (http://www.smh.com.au/business/pilots-to-challenge-fair-work-ban-20120304-1ub1r.html#ixzz1oCRhKo3j)

[73to91]

Call for fines but Qantas wins on foreign workers

Read more: Call for fines but Qantas wins on foreign workers (http://www.smh.com.au/business/call-for-fines-but-qantas-wins-on-foreign-workers-20120322-1vmw3.html#ixzz1ptmr24F4)



QANTAS and other airlines should face fines if they ground their aircraft fleets on the basis of spurious safety concerns, according to the majority view of a senate committee.

However, the committee has rejected bills proposed by the independent senator Nick Xenophon aimed at forcing Qantas and Jetstar to conduct more work such as aircraft engineering in Australia, and pay overseas cabin crew local wages when they fly on domestic legs of international flights.

In a report tabled yesterday, the committee recommended the federal government consider imposing penalties on airlines that ground their fleets if they cite ''safety concerns'' without a valid reason.


Senators questioned Qantas's chief executive, Alan Joyce, at a hearing shortly after his controversial decision in late October to lock out staff and ground the airline's entire fleet. It forced the federal government to intervene and led to the industrial umpire terminating Qantas's dispute with three unions.

Qantas told the senators the decision to ground its fleet was a response to safety concerns identified as part of a risk assessment in planning for the lock-out. The long-haul pilots union disputed Qantas's assessment of the risk to safety.

The senate committee wants airlines to be made to lodge a safety case with the air-safety regulator before they make a formal decision to ground planes because of the ''potential for widespread repercussions'' for Australia's economy and reputation abroad.

However, Coalition senators on the committee disagreed, saying such a demand on an airline would remove its ''right to run itself''.

Qantas welcomed the committee's rejection of Senator Xenophon's attempts to tighten the laws governing it but has taken exception to its demands for tougher rules over the grounding of aircraft.

''To be required to undergo a time-consuming process of justification and approval prior to taking safety action is unacceptable to Qantas and contrary to basic safety management principles,'' Qantas's head of government relations, Olivia Wirth, said yesterday. ''This is impractical when speed of response is essential to safe operations.''

Qantas and the Transport Workers Union, which represents baggage handlers, also began binding arbitration over a new enterprise agreement before the workplace umpire yesterday. The hearing in front of a full bench of Fair Work is expected to take several weeks.

Qantas settled its long-running dispute with aircraft engineers in December but has been unable to reach an agreement with baggage handlers and long-haul pilots.





Read more: Call for fines but Qantas wins on foreign workers (http://www.smh.com.au/business/call-for-fines-but-qantas-wins-on-foreign-workers-20120322-1vmw3.html#ixzz1ptmVZc5W)

[mohikan]

I can't help thinking that QF knows something about the likely outcome of the AIPA vs QF arbitration that we don't.

When you think about the sequence of events leading up to the grounding it begins to make sense..

Firstly, the company has bleated for years now about how QF international has been 'losing hundreds of millions of dollars' and that Jetstar International is an 'amazing business' that conversely makes hundreds of millions of dollars profit.

Long term QF employees know that this is all baloney of course, but nevertheless it is accepted as 'fact' by what passes for the media in this country, and I suspect that the doctored public accounts will be the centrepiece of the companies 'evidence' when the hearings commence.

Secondly, it has been clear that from the get go the company has not been negotiating in good faith, or actually in any sort of faith at all. If you listen to one of the AIPA EA negotiators they tell you that one day a contractual item is almost 'agreed' and then the next day the company negotiating team comes back to the table and says 'nah we are not talking about that item anymore - its off the agenda now'.

The whole negotiating sequence has been designed to set up the scenario for the grounding, and now subsequent arbitration. The company (correctly) surmised that the QF pilot group would vote for PIA, and after it did so the die was cast - shades of '89 in a way.

The last piece of the puzzle (and this is the bit that really worries me) is the make up of the FWA full bench. Google 'Freehills' and FWA and see what comes out.

It is also a matter of record that Justice Guidice was the companies lawyer during 1989.

If you look at the companies log of claims at arbitration it effectively wipes out the LH award - particularly the rostering components, which are moved 'off award' into a separate 'rostering manual' which the company alone can control.

I hope I am wrong, but it seems to me the fix might be in, and the company knows it.

[ampclamp]

mohikan, of course it was engineered. Block and stall all parties until they had the trigger and the timing was right re the talking down of Int ops. The engineers got pretty much what they asked for which was not outrageous. Once the eba was signed off the sackings commenced and bases will be closed. Settlement will be similar carnage for flight crew and TWU no doubt.

[FYSTI]

Grounded: How Alan Joyce brought Qantas and the nation to a standstill



January 24, 2015 - 12:30AM https://zend2.com/vip3.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2F%26quot%3Bhttps%3A% 2F%2Fzend2.com%2Fvip3.php%3Fu%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.pprun e.org%252F%2526quot%253Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimages.smh.com.au %252F2012%252F10%252F08%252F3697590%252FMatt-O-Sullivan.jpg%253Frand%253D1349678334051%2526quot%253B%26amp% 3Bamp%3Bb%3D4%26quot%3B&b=4 (https://zend2.com/vip3.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2F%26quot%3Bhttps%3A% 2F%2Fzend2.com%2Fvip3.php%3Fu%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.pprun e.org%252F%2526quot%253Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.smh.com.au%25 2Fbusiness%252Fby%252FMatt-O%252527Sullivan%2526quot%253B%26amp%3Bamp%3Bb%3D4%26quot%3B&b=4)
Matt O'Sullivan (https://zend2.com/vip3.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2F%26quot%3Bhttps%3A% 2F%2Fzend2.com%2Fvip3.php%3Fu%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.pprun e.org%252F%2526quot%253Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.smh.com.au%25 2Fbusiness%252Fby%252FMatt-O%252527Sullivan%2526quot%253B%26amp%3Bamp%3Bb%3D4%26quot%3B&b=4)

Business Reporter




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Qantas check-in at Melbourne airport on October 30, 2011. Photo: Joe Armao

Shortly before 5pm, Alan Joyce took a lift with one of his minders down six floors at Qantas headquarters near Sydney Airport. Once out of the lift, they began the short stroll to where journalists and cameras had been corralled for a hastily arranged media conference to hear an announcement they had only been told was big. Before the Qantas chief executive got to the waiting journalists, a text message was sent to Lyell Strambi's mobile. "We are go," it read. With those words, the die had been cast. There would be no turning back.

About 10 minutes earlier, in anticipation, Strambi, the Qantas head of operations, had set up a conference call with his direct reports. Some of Strambi's executives had written short scripts beforehand to read out to their own managers when the nod was given. With Strambi on one line, his confidants were about to dial into their own conference calls to feed the message down the line. "Alan is going in now. He's made the decision. You now need to go and put in place your plans," one told his direct reports. As the words ricocheted around the organisation, emails began appearing in the inboxes of senior staff outlining what was about to happen and what they needed to do. With the push of a "send" button on a mobile phone, the middle managers had been drawn into the vortex. The chief executive was holding a media conference and in 10 minutes all hell would break loose.


Earlier, on the last Saturday in October 2011, some staff not yet in the know had turned up at Qantas headquarters and at airport terminals in jeans and T-shirts. They had no idea why they had been dragged into the office on a Saturday. For all they knew, the Transport Workers Union was about to launch a strike.


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Standing in front of TV cameras, Joyce started reading a prepared speech. "A crisis is unfolding in Qantas," he began. With the unions "trashing our strategy and our brand", Joyce insisted he had no option but to force the issue by locking out staff who were covered by three agreements under negotiation. "Killing Qantas slowly would be a tragedy for Qantas and our employees," he said. It would be 55 sentences into his carefully crafted speech before he uttered the crucial lines. "The lockout makes it necessary for us to ground the fleet," he declared. "We have decided to ground the Qantas international and domestic fleets immediately. I repeat, we are grounding the Qantas fleet now."


Within eight minutes of the start of Joyce's speech, the command to ground the fleet had worked its way to every part of the Qantas operations, from London and Los Angeles to Darwin, Sydney and Perth.
Joyce's decision would disrupt 98,000 passengers already sitting on Qantas planes or who were due to hop on its services over the next few days.


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Sydney Airport during the grounding. Photo: Lee Besford

Shocked staff went out into the airports and terminals and did what they had been told. Few read the list of prepared notes detailing what they should do. Time was precious. Staff ensured that passengers disembarked from planes and were sent home or put-up in hotels. In a worst-case scenario, Qantas had expected arguments and fights to start. Travel plans would be thrown into disarray. But mayhem did not break out. Instead staff and passengers appeared so stunned and disbelieving of what was occurring that an air of order was maintained in airport terminals around the country and overseas. People were simply dumbfounded.


At 5:15pm Qantas gave formal orders to couriers to deliver to staff lockout notices. Five minutes later, Qantas phoned a broker to book 2000 hotel rooms in Los Angeles and 800 in Singapore. Shortly afterwards the airline booked accommodation in Australia for stranded passengers. Qantas still had 66 planes in the air. The airline decided not to tell pilots who were flying about the unprecedented events underway on the ground. It deemed it a risk to safety because it believed pilots would be distracted while in the air. Word had a habit of spreading quickly, even at 40,000 feet. Pilots on long-haul flights often tuned into ABC Radio Australia or spoke to pilots of other aircraft ia air-to-air communications. The captain of a 747 flying from Dallas to Brisbane, one of the longest runs in the he world, was listening to the news on Radio Australia in the middle of the night when he heard that his airline had been grounded. Steve Anderson, the captain of the 747 who was also a secretary of the pilots' union, checked in with Qantas' operations control centre in Sydney but was told they had no information to relay to him. This was despite the fact that Qantas had prepared a statement to be read to any pilots who phoned in. The statement confirmed Qantas had been grounded but emphasised that it did not pose a safety risk to their flight. They were told to fly on to their destination where they would be met on arrival and all would be explained.


Earlier in the afternoon, Anthony Albanese has been playing tennis in a social competition at Marrickville in Sydney's inner west. In the middle of the game the federal transport minister got a call at 1:38pm from one of his advisers to say that the Qantas chief executive wanted to speak to him urgently, and to expect a call. The call didn't come. He rang Joyce's mobile at 1:51pm but couldn't get through. "What a time to ring!" Albanese said sternly in a message he left on Joyce's phone.

Four minutes later, Albanese tried again, without any luck. Finally, his mobile rang with Joyce on the other end of the line shortly after 2pm. The Qantas chief executive told him that he would be grounding Australia's largest airline in less than three hours and locking out staff on the following Monday. Albanese told him unequivocally that he thought it was a bad decision. "I reminded him that CHOGM was on in Perth and that if he's going to pick any time to ground the airline, ever, that it would do maximum damage. I said "Why would you do it tonight? People would be stranded. If you are going to do this, why wouldn't you at least give me some notice?" Albanese recalled later. "He was like, the decision has been made. We were being told, not asked."
Working to a prepared script, Joyce told Albanese he was doing it on the basis of safety. He informed the minister that if word leaked, he would ground the fleet immediately.
The government believed Qantas had dumped the problem in its lap to be fixed. Albanese phoned the Treasurer, Wayne Swan, who organised a telephone hook up of key cabinet ministers to determine a course of action. This was a crisis for the government, too.

Before the teleconference, Albanese spoke briefly to Prime Minister Julia Gillard about the government's course of action. As a former industrial relations minster and the architect of the Fair Work Act, Gillard knew the legislation back to front. It was quickly decided to send the dispute to an emergency hearing of the industrial umpire by using Section 424 of the Fair Work Act. To Qantas' dismay, the government had decided against invoking Section 431 of the industrial relations laws, which gave ministers the powers to terminate the dispute immediately. It would have allowed Qantas to keep flying. The government decided Albanese would lead its counterattack later that afternoon. After being given an ultimatum by Qantas, the government believed it needed to get on the front foot or the airline, the opposition and the unions would quickly fill the vacuum.
Later, while Joyce was still speaking at his press conference, Albanese's media minder alerted journalists to a media conference to be held with the transport minster in central Sydney, not far from Qantas' city offices.
Clearly angry, Albanese said he was "very concerned about Qantas' actions of which we were notified only mid-afternoon". In the 1989 pilots strike, the government was able to make contingency plans. It had called in the Royal Australian Air Force and allowed international airlines to fly on domestic routes. This time there was no warning. Australia depended on aviation like almost no other country. Albanese told journalists the government would be making an urgent application to Fair Work to terminate all industrial action at Qantas.

The government accused the Coalition of knowing about the planned grounding and acting in unison with Qantas. Their claims gained credibility when the shadow treasurer, Joe Hockey, told the ABC's 7.30 Report that Qantas had been saying "weeks ago" that it was considering a grounding or lockout as an option. A day later, Hockey changed his position.

Joyce had made the biggest gamble of his career. The fact that word of the grounding had not leaked testified to the loyalty of his inner circle. But neither he nor his inner sanctum knew whether the months of planning and strategising would pay off. With a single decision the man with the thick Irish brogue from Dublin's outer suburbs had almost stopped a nation.


After months of unions threatening stoppages, calling them off at the last minute, and in some cases seeing them through, it was Qantas that was taking action. Throughout, Joyce had not shown signs of anxiety or nervousness to his staff. He was cool under pressure.


The question now was whether his extraordinary act would bring the dispute to an abrupt end. More importantly, once the dust settled what would be the final toll?


This is an edited extract from the book Mayday: How warring egos forced Qantas off course by Matt O'Sullivan published by Viking, rrp $32.99. Also available as an ebook.
SMH: Grounded: How Alan Joyce brought Qantas and the nation to a standstill (https://zend2.com/vip3.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2F%26quot%3Bhttps%3A% 2F%2Fzend2.com%2Fvip3.php%3Fu%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.pprun e.org%252F%2526quot%253Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.smh.com.au%25 2Fbusiness%252Fgrounded-how-alan-joyce-brought-qantas-and-the-nation-to-a-standstill-20150122-12v3zg.html%2526quot%253B%26amp%3Bamp%3Bb%3D4%26quot%3B&b=4)

[HeSaidWhat]

One of the bigger egos from this piece, for my money, was the minister's.........

"We were told, not asked". The hide of the man.

Does he really expect private enterprise to 'ask' him if they can make a business decision before it is made, no matter how large? Shows the cut of his jib. A typical bully boy who thinks he has the authority to push business around.

Regardless of what you think of the man, or his actions at that time, it's nice to see that Joyce at least had the balls to punch this bully in the nose, which is often the only way to put a bully in his place.

[KrispyKreme]

Joyce is a puppet, it was Clifford that had the balls to do it. Joyce was just "given orders"

[WorthWhat]

Power-plays, public spats, strategic blunders, betrayal and revenge: the fall of Qantas has more intrigue and drama than any in-flight movie. How did a national icon become a national liability?

Founded in 1920 by two WWI pilots and a grazier, the 'Flying Kangaroo' is one of the oldest and most respected airlines in the world. Famous for never having lost a jet aircraft in flight, in late 2014 Qantas had a crash of a different kind, recording one of the largest losses in global aviation history. A sequence of crises on the ground and in the air have all taken their toll.

At the centre of the decline has been Alan Joyce, controversially appointed CEO in 2008. His supporters applaud him for tackling problems ignored by his predecessors. His critics accuse him of unconscionable mismanagement and irreversible damage - from ongoing feuds with predecessor Geoff Dixon and Virgin boss John Borghetti (a one-time leadership rival), to a botched bid for government aid, Joyce has had the roughest of rides.

Mayday takes us behind the headlines, to tell the full story of a company at war with itself, and the world. Senior journalist Matt O'Sullivan tells us what was happening on the Qantas executive floor as QF32 threatened to fall from the sky; documents the incredible story of the airline's numerous failed forays into Asia; and reveals the truth behind Joyce's infamous 2011 decision to ground Qantas' entire fleet.

[blueloo]

Regardless of what you think of the man, or his actions at that time, it's nice to see that Joyce at least had the balls to punch this bully in the nose, which is often the only way to put a bully in his place

What an achievement.

Whilst kicking an own goal of epic proportions.
Costing the company millions and millions.
Creating massive brand damage.
Alienating nearly all the staff (which is still costing them).
And pissing off hundreds of thousands of passengers.

Yeah. Good job. He really showed those bullies. !

...oh yeah and he gained so much from the work choices decision. NOT
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[ohallen]

Guess it is just a coincidence this puff piece surfaces as JQ pilots discuss PIA.

Do they think the world is completely stupid besides their inner sanctum.

[Ngineer]

Do they think the world is completely stupid besides their inner sanctum.

They are at a distance to the real world. Probably surrounded by arse kissers and ladder climbers.

[ACT Crusader]

Guess it is just a coincidence this puff piece surfaces as JQ pilots discuss PIA.

Do they think the world is completely stupid besides their inner sanctum.

Not really a coincidence given O'Sullivan's book was only published this month and he is a regular writer for the SMH. A bit of book promotion I'd say

[Reflex10]

"They are at a distance to the real world. Probably surrounded by arse kissers and ladder climbers. "
That's all that are left, he sacked anyone game to disagree or have an alternative view.
Baz

[The Big E]

They are at a distance to the real world. Probably surrounded by arse kissers and ladder climbers.

Not forgetting all the d**ky lickers, and c**k suckers.:yuk: If that is all the integrity that the remaining so called management lot have collectively got amongst themselves, then they probably deserve each other.:E

[TIMA9X]

A very entertaining piece from Ben Sandilands on the grounding "Mayday" book,

Grounded: How Qantas CEO Joyce pulled it down with a txt | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2015/01/24/grounded-how-qantas-ceo-joyce-pulled-it-down-with-a-txt/?comment_page=2/#comments)

so1W_j2dezQ

It seems the Qantas Angels got themselves in a tizz over nothing, very touchy.. :)

notam, the video starts with a piece on the surcharges

[QFBUSBOY]

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-poised-to-record-1-billion-profit-ubs-20150128-12zr24.html

Who said Qantas Engineering was dead?

The only problem is that the best Engineers work on the board, and not in the hangar.

What a remarkable turnaround :hmm: