MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Collared versions for staff travel ?.

[Hoofharted]

PAF plus ALAN = two equally useless pieces of sh1t.

[NIGELINOZ]

Watched Joyce on Sky News this morning-he should give up being a CEO and open a restaurant instead-he does great line in waffle.
Cheers
N'oz

[King William III]

Watched Joyce on Sky News this morning-he should give up being a CEO and open a restaurant instead-he does great line in waffle. :ok:

thompsonbenji Ben Thompson
#qantas Bussell in trouble. Contradictions ahoy!


Sux when you have to take an oath before talking……..just a shame Olivia isn't needed in the stand…….

[Ultralights]

skies are unusually quiet over sydney tonight, Airservices must be relieved... now maybe they can sort out th issues in WA with the mining company aircraft schedules. :sad:

[ejectx3]

What happens then? ... buggered if I know. There will be a plan already on the sideline ready to go.
ie. QF must ground all 767s due to poor advanced bookings, then all 747s grounded same reason, Qf International will fly LHR & LAX only, team a380 will be the only engineers to survive the cull, A licenses will run the domestic.
JQ fly to RedQ hub where all the 787 call home.
20,000 QF staff dumped and on the dole queue.

^^^^^^^^^^^ that

[SpannerTwister]

skies are unusually quiet over sydney tonight, Airservices must be relieved... now maybe they can sort out th issues in WA with the mining company aircraft schedules. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

:ok: :ok: :ok:

Every now and again a gem comes along :D !!

ST

[breakfastburrito]

just posted on another thread by sfde (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/467001-qf-solution-offer-3.html#post6778751)
Just watched an interview which AJ admitted that the failed take over bid would have been a mistake and that hindsight shows this. Hindsight also shows that the executive should have purchased B777s and that freight cartels and Vietnam are a bad idea. Even their mighty Jetstar plan has seriously damaged their international product apparently.

I am having trouble finding an executive decision that in hindsight has been a good move.

Extraordinary.

[sfde]

Just had the site crash on me. When I got back in I noticed 1074 people viewing at this stage must be a quiet Sunday elsewhere.

[Jetsbest]

Thanks for the tip. :rolleyes:

1. I still can't see where I said 'unions should run the company'.
2. My post was my idea of 'good faith'; not what you describe.
3. 96% evidently does not ensure good faith either! Are they all amoral? I know what I think.

I did not mention anyone specific, and I but I reckon my proposed 'good faith' would garner far more respect and success for the company than their current behaviour. Perpetually saying 'no' is not negotiating. AIPA representatives have, since 1966 until now, always reached agreement with the company without industrial action.

and..

"The idea that people like SP choose the pay and conditions you work under, and will inflict wounds on a company until they agree is incorrect. The idea that it's 'bargaining in good faith' for people like SP to propose something a little beyond what he's after and expect the airline to accept 90% of what he asked for is incorrect."

but you seem to be saying that the company can continually say 'no', without any constructive counter-offer or credible and truthful explanation, and that is ok.

Just saying the cow is sick does not make it so. If it were as sick as they would have us believe, it would be easily and transparently verifiable. :suspect: I say it's dogma at it most cynical...

[Captain Gidday]

Just watched an interview which AJ admitted that the failed take over bid would have been a mistake and that hindsight shows this. Hindsight also shows that the executive should have purchased B777s and that freight cartels and Vietnam are a bad idea. Even their mighty Jetstar plan has seriously damaged their international product apparently.

Is sfde watching a repeat of an old Chaser episode? Joyce actually said that? Poor lad must be getting fatigued after, what, a 12 hour shift? Perhaps he needs to toughen up. He'd never make it back from Dallas if we sent him to longhaul.

[breakfastburrito]

Just watched an interview which AJ admitted that the failed take over bid would have been a mistake and that hindsight shows this

Yes he did, The Bolt Report 30/10/2011 Part 1 (http://ten.com.au/video-player.htm?movideo_m=138810&movideo_p=44795). Cue to 7:30 (once you get past all the ads)

[chockchucker]

At some stage though you will need to accept that a lot of people aren't willing to pay what you demand.



Seems they have no trouble paying the board, CEO and top management tier whatever feel they deserve though right?


Leadership by example P.A.F. Not too much to ask is it?

[Slippery_Pete]

Sick of Pass-A-Frozzo? :yuk:

1. Login to PPrune
2. Click "User CP"
3. Click "Edit ignore list"
4. Cut and paste "Pass-A-Frozzo" and click "Okay"

F**k off troll :D

[ejectx3]

As Joyce/Clifford's deliberate plan to drive passengers away from qantas reaches its climax....

Will this deliberate destruction of an Aussie icon go unpunished?

[Shed Dog Tosser]

If ticket prices are reducing whilst employees ask for higher wages

With multiple statements like this under your belt, it is clear you do not know what you are talking about, i.e. what this is all about.

[Race Bannon]

PAF you offer no cogent deductive argument.
What you offer is opinion~your opinion
You poke, you prod in order to incite
You seem to have a rudimentary education and a reasonable command of the english language.(as do most pre pubescent children)
Apart from satisfying your own childish need for entertainment you contribute nothing to this or any other debate.
These are serious matters that concern serious people and as such have no place for dilettante poltroons such as yourself

[Ticking Timebomb]

why is everyone getting so upset. Just think how much money they are saving on fuel.

[600ft-lb]

If people aren't aware

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/leigh_howard)

That guy is giving a blow by blow account of the hearing currently underway.

And would it be possible to ban from this thread the people who cant focus on the issue and keep bleeting the same **** - PAF would be first.

[Slippery_Pete]

Pardon???

Did someone say something? I can't hear you, PAF :D You are being added to everyone's ignore list faster than AJ's teeth are rotting.

In case anyone missed it...


Sick of Pass-A-Frozzo? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif

1. Login to PPrune
2. Click "User CP"
3. Click "Edit ignore list"
4. Cut and paste "Pass-A-Frozzo" and click "Okay"

F**k off troll :D


Now, back to discussing Australian jobs for Australian workers...

[FlexibleResponse]

It is quite obvious that Clifford/Joyce have been goading the unions for a long time into taking industrial action so that Management had the justification to ground Qantas and lock-out Qantas workers.

OK, they have now achieved that. Whether that action was justified or not by the union action (the Australian public jury is still out), Qantas is now grounded.

The question we ask is why?

1. What is the end-play of the Clifford/Joyce game?
2. Will a White Knight arrive and in what form...a take-over bid?
3. Shutdown the Qantas brand, sack all the Qantas workers, gift all Qantas routes, aircraft and gear to JetStar?
4. Re-employ those workers who are willing to run the expanded JetStar?

Please supply written answers on a tablecloth, serviette or even the back of an old envelope...

[Slippery_Pete]

Hi Flexible Response.

My guess is that option three is the most liked by management. It will essentially rid them of the restrictions of the QF Sale Act.

Getting back in the air with either a suspension or termination will still present the problem of the QF Sale Act and a company damaged, possibly beyond repair.

Shut QF down, flog it all off to J* and the South East Asia solution... BINGO - no QF sale act.

[breakfastburrito]

The end game has always been to slip the Qantas Sales Act 1992 and to take the crown jewels private. This aim has been at least 10 years in the making. Decisions about directing new aircraft to Jetstar, diminishing route structure to deliberately weaken the international business.

The crown jewels are the landing slots, terminal leases, international route agreements. These are effectively monopolies and extremely difficult to replicate. (Think of the value of the domestic network terminals and parking bays, there isn't any more real estate available to build more).

Once the airline is bankrupted, these crown jewels will find their way into private hands.

[breakfastburrito]

Folks, there is a troll here. They are *deliberately* trying to spoil & hijack this thread using a large number of posts. Don't give it oxygen.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

from Fair Work Australia - The Government and QANTAS are pushing for a complete termination of industrial action. Deloitte now arguing on behalf of QANTAS regarding certainty.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

from Fair Work Australia hearing:
"Deloitte: Australian domestic tourism market already fragile b/c of Australia's two speed economy"

[Al E. Vator]

Yes b'burrito: And the question is which private hands will the shares fall into.

This is the crux of the matter and one that needs to be watched like a hawk.

As mentioned, it would be funny to see Gillard re-nationalise the thing overnight. Hopefully that would arrest the appalling mis-management that has turned a once proud icon into a dithering mess. QF is a clear case of where privitisation is not always the answer.

[schlong hauler]

Reading the tweets from inside the FWA hearing it's obvious that suspension would be the most logical outcome. Some of the testimony from Qantas is embarrassing in it's lack of real industrial disruption caused. Storm in a tea cup that's got most commentators struggling to understand why the airline was grounded. Totally unnecessary and a tactical error to try and force a decision from FWA during CHOGM. There are some political points to be garnered by the Labor government but they need FWA to make punctual determination tonight. Reith crapping on about union power is to be expected but Labor needs to recapture there working class constituents and illustrate Labor's true support for the vast majority who are somewhat disconnected after the recent carbon tax and boat people policy debacles.

[VintageRed]

is this '89 happening again?

[chickoroll]

Just wondering is QFA the ICAO call sign for QANTAS

[ohallen]

Does everyone realise that by diverting passengers to Jetstar, the Rat is achieving its aims???? Why should they be rewarded for this behaviour??? I know people are in dire straits but playing into the hands of these people is not what they deserve in the long term.

Every passenger contributes to the Bonus of both AJ and his cronies and frankly they have taken self interest to a whole new level.

DJ have added 31,000 seats capacity and even the Rat own expert "didnt know if that was enough" so why is he calling himself an expert, oh sorry the Rat is paying him.

Whatever the outcome in FWA there is seismic change happening because the Rat has deliberately destroyed its brand to near death status and then they have the nerve to say the brand will recover. Very presumptuous to all those stranded passengers.

I dont care who anyone flies with but for me any Rat Group company will be strictly last choice and that includes driving and train from here. Of course that all could change overnight if they fire their CEO(as a start).

They will reap what they sow.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

is this '89 happening again?

No, no one is resigning and it is an entirely different industrial climate.

[Howard Hughes]

is this '89 happening again?
This has the potential to make 1989 look like a picnic.

[manfred]

A Quote from Chris Ulhmann on the 7:30 report
from an anonymous government minister at CHOGM

Asked if he believed had held a gun to the governments head by qantas:

"Yes but the bullet will be going through their brain first"!

[The The]

Very interesting 7.30 report on ABC. AJ has gone to ground, now refusing interviews, the Gov't is really pi$$ed.

Me thinks AJ has realised he has lost it. The public are furious at him. The politicians are furious at him. Workers not involved in the dispute are furious at him.

Any bright tech heads out there able to start an online public petition calling for AJ and LC to resign (not a union site). Should be able to get hundreds of thousands to sign up as word spreads through here, twitter etc. www.sackjoyce.com or something. I don't know how to do it.

Maintain the rage! AJ and LC could be gone very very soon!!!!!!!

[maggotdriver]

"Yes but the bullet will be going through their brain first"!

That's the quote I've been looking for!:D

[73to91]

AJ has gone to ground, now refusing interviews
I have been wondering since Friday.......where's Olivia :confused:

It will be interesting to hear the 2 QF morning show hacks in the morning (Monday) Kochie & Karl :mad:

[rh200]

"Yes but the bullet will be going through their brain first"!

Possibly, but has this government managed to shoot from the hit on any crisis so far and get it right?

[buttmonkey1]

who invited the state governments into the deal?

[fatmike]

The anonymous minister talking about misfiring bullets is from the same decision making process that gave us the idiotic FWA laws in the first place; changed the refugee program so that those who come by boat get first choice; pink batts; BER; fibre optic internet whether you like it or not; carbon tax; poker machine limits (tba) etc etc.
I guess he/she would know with all that wisdom....not!!!

[Kiwiconehead]

Just got SMS that my MEL-BNE flight flight Mon morning is cancelled. So they've pulled the trigger on tomorrow's flights.

[chickoroll]

Tara Reid on 60 minutes has just drilled AJ he had nothing

[Slippery_Pete]

From Leigh Howard's twitr...


FWA have asked parties to give submissions on the curious aspect of how to provide notice of a suspension (427(3)). Indicative?


Touching every piece of wood right now... but this sounds promising.

[tmadam]

It seems to me that Q has made a mountain out of a molehill through a feedback loop of positive reinforcement using solely its own actions. This could be explained by intention or incompetence.

I start with the premise that the first significant impacts on schedule reliability and thus customers were as a result of the half a dozen grounded a/c two weeks ago.

This then impacted bookings, to the extent that yesterday's decision was seen to be justified.

The first grounding was blamed in the media on "60,000 man hours" of maintenance backlog, or 360 man months. Is this realistic for a fleet of 108 a/c? I have no idea how the minor industrial action taken by ALAEA to this point could result in such a backlog.

[SOPS]

That is a good question where IS Oliva???:E

[Arnold E]

Maintain the rage! AJ and LC could be gone very very soon!!!!!!!

Unfortunately dont think so.:{

[hoss]

Just saw the 60 minutes thing. Reminded me of the joke about the catholic who converts to become a Protestant on his death bed, because he would "rather it be one of theirs than one of ours that has to pass on!"

Seems to me AJ is convinced it(QF) has to go and he would rather it be him who screws it over rather than the unions!

He just doesn't make sense.

[rockapetransport]

Hopefully they will rule in favour of a "Suspension" rather than "Termination."

What would be the repercussions on Qantas if this happens?

[DJ737]

Just got SMS that my MEL-BNE flight flight Mon morning is cancelled.

You can re route on to other QF group services, get them to book you MEL-AKL-BNE on Jetconnect. :ok:

[Cargo744]

If you think that SP and Co are your saviours then you need your head read. They have got nothing!

[Boardman]

Ya know what! I am not a racist person , but I am really sick to death of this country being slowly f#%$*d to death by Blow In's and cheap imported **** that has already crippled our manufacturing!!

Joyce and who ever is behind him should be ashamd and piss off back to wherever they came from and if they are from this country go buy a .38 and blow their brains out!!!! Our kids are in really in trouble if this crap continues!! The picture is way bigger than this fiasco.

The engineers have done jack **** industrial action wise! You reckon I am going to be the perfect employee while this arsehole is in power if Qantas survives??

Go home Joyce you ********! The damage cannot be repaired.

[Howard Hughes]

Judging by the info from Leigh Howard, I'd bet on a 120 day suspension.

[Amygdala1]

A few things to watch:
Share dumping tomorrow.
QFF Points purchasing (dumping) tomorrow.
Virgin re-offer of QFF Gold and + recognition.
Qantas enticement for Business Flyers to return to the fold.
The NEXT Australian Iconic Airline.

Interesting times.....

[VintageRed]

if this question seems a bit simple, then im sorry, but why are the governments involved in the hearing? Also, if the governments are allowed to make submissions, why then arent the other states represented?

ive been out of the country for a while, so this all seems a mess (the FWA hearing i mean).

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

Hopefully they will rule in favour of a "Suspension" rather than "Termination."

What would be the repercussions on Qantas if this happens?

You hope for something that you don't understand?

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Termination or suspension, do you think anyone will do overtime ?.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

A few things to watch:
Share dumping tomorrow.
QFF Points purchasing (dumping) tomorrow.
Virgin re-offer of QFF Gold and + recognition.
Qantas enticement for Business Flyers to return to the fold.

Share effect marginal.
QFF Point effect - nil
DJ benefit from QFF Gold + = next to nil
QF rewarding Gold+ , possible.

[QF94]

Termination or suspension, do you think anyone will do overtime ?

There may be those that want to build up their reserves before being finally turfed out.

Either way, the staff have been totally disengaged by management. I guess we won't be seeing anymore staff engagement surveys or doing anymore of those waste of time mandatory customer service "pass the balls" courses.

Basically, QANTAS as we know it is dead, and when it gets back in the air, it will be a flying carcass. Just the way AJ/LC want it. They can then discard that carcass and bring in jq. The only problem is, when the funds run out, and Pacific Asia fianlly falls over, how will jq pay for itself? It won't matter, AJ/LC will be long gone.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

from Fair Work Australia: The Federal Government has submitted that the Unions have not submitted that they seek resolution [and support termination -- no union action permitted, no company action permitted]

The state of Queensland has also just argued that Industrial Action be terminated, not suspended - which would cease all company and any Union strike action

[Kiwiconehead]

You can re route on to other QF group services, get them to book you MEL-AKL-BNE on Jetconnect.

I punted and grabbed a Virgin ticket last night, now can refund my QF and claim the rest of the Virgin ticket.

[flying lid]

Globalisation ??!!?? - Just watched, here in UK, a Russia Today (RT) news channel report regarding the plight of Japan. While not specific to Qantas, it has similar overtones.

Something smells fishy in Japan's economy — RT (http://rt.com/news/economy-japan-world-crisis-051/)

“Japanese industry can probably endure the current 75-yen-to-the-dollar level for a little while,” says House of Councillors member Yoichi Kaneko. “But if this situation doesn’t change over a longer period, I think we’re going to see Japanese factories and large companies move their operations overseas – to places like Vietnam, Thailand, or China. This would lead to a hollowing out of Japanese domestic industry and create unemployment. Japan is facing an extraordinary economic crisis.”

Now the Aussie dollar is stronger than the Yen, but what's happening at Qantas is happening all around the world, in every industry, right now, and at an ever increasing pace.

I don't know the answer, except to shoot the bastards (CEO's / Politicians / Bankers) dead.

Anyway, good luck to all.

[Clipped]

C744

SP is passionate about our profession and the membership and goes to great lengths to represent us under very trying circumstances.

Most guys I know respect his efforts and would by him a beer anytime.

Unlike yourself, obviously self centred and inept and incapable of leading men but instead anonymously attacks someone who is brave enough to front the media, pollies and the mongrels of our industry.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

QANTAS as we know it is dead

With all due respect... wasn't this said a number of years ago under Geoff Dixon.. remember... GD destroyed the QF brand? So answer now.. Did GD destroy the QF brand or not.. you can't have it both ways.. You can't have two master criminals.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

Gillard Government, + QLD, +NSW, +VIC all argue that Industrial action is terminatated.. meaning if agreed the Unions cannot take action into the future

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

SP is passionate about our profession and the membership and goes to great lengths to represent us under very trying circumstances.

Most guys I know respect his efforts and would by him a beer anytime.

I suspect that's due to an extremely simplistic analysis of his role.

If your salary isn't paid from Monday night, that would be due to SP

[ACT Crusader]

By pleading for suspension the Unions will have shot themselves in the foot and forever nullified their position.
The fight is now or never the unions did nothing wrong under their FWA sanctioned PIA. To argue for suspension is senseless, don't hand the Gov,the FWA and QF what they want on a silver platter...make THEM squirm and have to justify their decision to the workers of Australia.
A suspension or termination judgement by the FWA now will show them as little more than a worthless, toothless, Corporate puppet.....Justice Giudice announces his resignation on Thursday from the FWA, if this is not a foreboding sign, what is?
Concede now and it is a slam-dunk that the Unions will never be able to psychologically convince their memberships to go through this again.
To me this is the Unions giving up and is sending the wrong message, no matter how they try to spin it.

P.S. What is it about the QF Long-Haul pilots.....they seem to love letting other Unions go first and do the real dirty work and take the flak and if they don't like what they see its all finger pointing and "it was them not us" deserting the cause.
"All we were ever going to do was wear a red tie", geez grow a set will yas!

Fair comments aiming point.

I think the ACTU get a sense of that and that is why they said they reject the application flat out. They did however note that suspension would be their preference thereafter.

[Cargo744]

Clipped

I lead many people thank you. SP is incapable of organising a p@ss up in brewery... just watch his performance at the AGM. If you blindly let him leed you then you have the same IQ as he does... vey low

[Seriously]

learn to spell "lead" not "leed"....:mad:

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

from Fair Work Australia:

VIC and NSW argue that the Gillard Gov't could have resolved this yesterday under s 431 of the Fair Work Act

[rockapetransport]

What happens after the FWA ruling, no matter what the result?

Ide imagine a slow death to the company until they replace the CEO/Board. The majority of Qantas employees with the "ARMY OF ONE" attitude.

Anyone got any other views of how it will pan out?

[bob johns]

Have a great deal of empathy with Qantas staff on this one ! Was newly between jobs when The Dispute wrecked the airline industry in 89! I was offered an FO slot with Australian , but how I hated Hawke and Abeles with a passion and spewed at the thought of working for and with scabs I declined. Try and explain that to a wife and two school aged kids (at that time )whose Dad couldnt get a job!!!I hav nt flown since 1991 and have been border line broke ,farming ,ever since but I can always stand and say that I didnt SCAB!! Hang in there chaps .That little c---t has shot himself up the arse with this one.

[QF94]

Quote:
QANTAS as we know it is dead
With all due respect... wasn't this said a number of years ago under Geoff Dixon.. remember... GD destroyed the QF brand? So answer now.. Did GD destroy the QF brand or not.. you can't have it both ways.. You can't have two master criminals.

QANTAS was dying under Geoff Dixon and never really recovered. Alan Joyce has just picked up where his predecessor left off and put a bullet through its head. The brand is definitely trashed now.

Yet GD is hovering around the carcass with his mate John Singleton and waiting to buy the carcass, pick its eyes and then finally sell it off like he failed to do last time.

[Cargo744]

Here comes the spelling police. Grow up!

[mohikan]

PAF.

I know that I speak on behalf of many QF pilots that frequent this forum when I say "pi$$ off"

We are not interested in your rhetoric and lies. We can log onto qffflightcrew.com to get that type of tripe there.

[Seriously]

I will.

When you will.

:=

[booglaboy]

Enlighten us cargo. What position do you hold? Who do you lead?. If You are such a major player and so insightful you won't be afraid to talk from your position of great power and safety

[amos2]

Back in 1989 a young, naive, lawyer by the name of Tony North represented the AFAP during the 1989 pilots dispute.

Another young, naive, lawyer by the name of Geoff Guidice represented the Companies during the 1989 pilots dispute.

Over a period of 18 months or so I attended most of the court cases regarding that dispute and had many conversations with both lawyers and also overheard many conversations with those lawyers and their associates.

As we all know, the companies won that dispute, Australian pilots were dispersed all over the world and aviation in Oz has never been the same since.

Tony Norths career went backwards for many years after that loss, until he took on another case representing employers, won that and then became a QC after many, many years in the wilderness!

Geoff Guidice, however, had a wonderful career instantly, went on to bigger and better things and has had a wonderful life based on destroying the lives of some 1657 pilots, their wives and families!

That same Geoff Guidice is currently the President of Fair Work Australia, has indicated a week ago that he is retiring in a few months time, is currently the head honcho for FWA re the Qantas dispute and has a reputation for looking after number one!

I would be very, very concerned if I were a Qantas pilot.

[aseanaero]

Maybe I.R.A Alan can run a power utility next and turn all the power off to a major Australian capital city ...

I.R.A. = I Ruin Airlines





.

[SimonBl]

So, Vic, Qld, Commonwealth & Qantas all pushing for termination of industrial action.

You'd have to, surely, think that this was the LC and AJ plan all along. How anyone thinks that all will then be sweet afterwards, if that's the determination of FWA, is beyond me.

Does that, if it happens, mean that the unions would then have to reapply to FWA to recommence PIA again? If so, what's the bloody point?

The person that disappoints me the most in all this is Peter Cosgrove, I thought the man had integrity. It would appear that I was wrong.

[Cargo744]

Why do i need to? i am not QF but have vested interested in these dealings. Will you "out yourself"? Didn't think so...

[ejectx3]

It appears all the trolls aren't that good at basic spelling and sentence construction....

Perhaps not too much going on upstairs?

Fools.

[tmadam]

amos2: fascinating. And a 120 day suspension, which is sounding like the second most likely outcome tonight, would end right at the end of February.

"Justice Giudice said he intended to finish in the position at the end of February next year." (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/giudice-steps-down-from-helm-of-fair-work-australia/story-fn59niix-1226178916356)

[POT100]

I think you're on the money QF94..

If the company get their way, AJ's position will become untenable in the long term because the moral is completely destroyed..
There is no way in hell he or the management will get the staff on board.

My theory - they would love a take over bid.
3 yrs ago the bid was for 11 billion..Guess what, now you can buy that same company for about 3 billion, [with 3 billion in cash reserves]..What a bargain!!!

Maybe Branson will buy QF with Virgins petty cash!

[booglaboy]

I'm a shareholder with vested interests in qantas. I'm a believer in good over evil, the power of one and the convictions to fight the good fight. Qantas is me, I am qantas.

[forever flying]

Qantas are sure blackmailing now!

thompsonbenji Ben Thompson
#qantas. Serious safety concerns remain if there is a suspension not termination. Suspension means grounding may not be lifted. Q counsel.

[SimonBl]

And from Leigh Howard, just to show how this was received:

"Q: no evidence suspension will return #Qantas to the air. There is a real possibility that qantas will not fly during suspension (!!!!)"

Wow.

[Slippery_Pete]

Qantas are sure blackmailing now!

Exactly. This is what I have been saying from the start. They are holding the Australian Government to ransom.

They should allow a 120 day suspension, and in the mean-time, hold a parliamentary enquiry into the actions of the Qantas CEO and board.

No matter the outcome, if the ASX can prove the grounding (or even the strong possibility of a grounding) was deliberately withheld from shareholders at the AGM, AJ is toast.

[RATpin]

bb,admire your passion,however,you sound like someone who has watched too many school choirs on the box. Time to wake up to what it is, not what we may wish it to be.

[SOPS]

What will the insane action cost long term?.....Just spoke to a good friend stranded in SIN......he is the Managing Director of a large company that until yesterday used QF for all company travel.....His words were " I blame AJ for all of this we the pax are being used as "hostages" and if and when I get home I will be reviewing our company travel policy as a matter of urgency":ugh:

[Seriously]

So Qantas management decide that due to stresses put on operating crew because of continued protected industrial action that it is unsafe to continue to operate.

However it is perfectly safe to continue to operate RR powered 744s with a known design defect instead of expediting the modifications. :suspect:

How many in-flight shutdowns of these engines have they had in the last 24 months?

Not a safety issue at all:ugh:

[Sunfish]

This is Royal Commission territory.

[forever flying]

The problem is, the government is saying a termination is going to be more effective because all they want is to "lessen the impact of this whole crisis on the economy", and a suspension will only delay what would have happened if the government hadn't intervened.

Now Qantas is saying that a suspension will increase saftey risks, spark action from CASA anyway and further damage the economy due to the uncertainty of there being no closure to the matter.

As much as I hate to f***** say it, I feel this is only going to go the way of termination.

AIPA beginning their final submission now...

[1a sound asleep]

As much as I hate to f***** say it, I feel this is only going to go the way of termination.

So this would mean Fair Work Australia is basically responsible for the decimation of all unions in Australia. After this there is no point in any union

[SimonBl]

I realise it's rhetorical, as no-one knows the answer, but how on earth can FWA believe that it's "more safe" to terminate all industrial action than to suspend it and force more discussions?

If they terminate, does that then bring arbitration on?

[Mstr Caution]

SimonB

Someone else correct me if I'm wrong.

I think termination means the parties have 21 days to negotiate an outcome otherwise it is arbitrated.

[chockchucker]

FWA didn't say that. That was part of the Qantas submission.

[mohikan]

1A has hit the nail on the head.

The real issue is that FWA and the current labour laws are a dead-dodo if the PIA is terminated.

All an employer has to do now is lock out a workforce in PIA and apply to FWA for termination.

I expect that the Qantas offshoring plan will be implemented now almost immediately. The whole 'red q' thing is a BS smokescreen. As many have pointed out the A320 NEO doesnt meet any of the range or capacity criteria.

Expect to see A380's in Singapore flown by contractors sooner rather then later

[rh200]

I must say the health and saftey card was a low trick to pull. It is not something to be used as justification for WMD action. It puts FWA in a bad position and I don't know how Qantas health and saftey could justify pilots etc being okay to fly in a despondent we just got bent over and taken mindset.

[bob johns]

If I could be stupid eneough ,as an imprecunious ,old cockie ,ex pilot , if QF is worth only 3 bn WTF dont we buy it back and only reduce our forein aid bill by one third. I know that privatisation is all the go at the moment but there are some things that need to be above the bastardry that this little creep has caused ! Water- power - health - transport - road -rail -AIR and sea-- Six little pricks like that could wreck this place forever.- Or just leave the ALP-Greens in next time.

[Tuner 2]

Remember that this action is brought about, strictly speaking, in response to Qantas' PIA. Therefore a blanket termination for all the parties is probably more than 90% likely.

[Bahama Breeze]

Qantas to remain grounded until at least noon Monday.

With each passing minute planes sit on the ground, more and more turn their backs on Qantas... let's just hope it's not toward Jetstar! :yuk:

[Worrals in the wilds]

Say they go for a termination... the next time Woolies/Coles have an IR tiff, they just instigate a lockout, shut down half the nation's supermarkets and the government will terminate the action and demand people return to work. Voila, Plutocracy Rules, and all thanks to a Labor government!':yuk:
Whole thing's smellier than a :mad:ing sardine cannery.

[Slippery_Pete]

Another ironic point here...

Consideration of PIA termination by the federal government is supposedly to protect the Australian economy.

They are so worried about the immediate, short term effect on the economy they are failing to see the offshoring of Qantas to Asia will guarantee permanent and massive damage to Australia's economy in the long run.

[forever flying]

leigh_howard leigh_howard
Pilots: Qantas have said that any result other than a termination will result in grounding. #Qantas is threatening FWA

[Slippery_Pete]

Qantas is threatening FWA
The crux right there.

[Oriana]

Every worker in this country can kiss their arses goodbye if the judges terminate the action.

WORK.
CONSUME.
BE SILENT.
DIE.

[schlong hauler]

Qantas has never acted in"good faith" during any negotiation with AIPA. FWA requires both or all parties to negotiate in good faith. There should be a suspension and Qantas made to act and negotiate in good faith.

[Bahama Breeze]

Kelps,

Give us an update fella! Long time no read.

[aseanaero]

No matter the outcome, if the ASX can prove the grounding (or even the strong possibility of a grounding) was deliberately withheld from shareholders at the AGM, AJ is toast.

Fingers crossed !

Read this Pilots say email proves Qantas planned grounding - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-30/pilots-say-email-proves-qantas-made-calculated-move/3609006)

But the Australian International Pilots Association (AIPA) has obtained an email apparently sent by Jetstar CEO Bruce Buchanan last night advising his staff of the actions being taken by Qantas.

The date on the memo was Wednesday October 26 and is addressed to team leaders saying: "By now you may be aware Qantas has announced a precautionary grounding of its fleet from 5pm Saturday", and warned of the Monday lockout.

AIPA vice-president Captain Richard Woodward says the date on the email reveals the extent of the airline's "calculated" plans to freeze operations.

"It is dated Wednesday 26th of October - so this has been planned and orchestrated," he said.

"You don't stop an airline overnight."This has been a long considered plan by Qantas to escalate this dispute, right when CHOGM was happening, damaging our international reputation and just before Melbourne Cup, which is one of the busiest days of the year for the airline."

Jetstar says the date on the memo is incorrect and simple human error is to blame.

The airline says it used an old banner for the memo and forgot to change the date

[cart_elevator]

I will be "fatigued due to the distress caused by the grounding of Qantas-I couldn't sleep cos of the worry" tomorrow before i sign on.There is a no-blame policy due to fatigue at qf isnt their? :}

[SOPS]

By J@@@us..these people can lie.....and old banner for the email..yeh sure and I am on the first mission to Mars:ugh:

[bob johns]

Just as an aside to my other posts it just go to show how ******* stupid is to allow solid manufacturing industries to go off shore and to pretend an industry ,so fragile as tourism to take up the slack!--Oure old Diggers must be rolling over in their graves.There was another bloke named Joyce that **** on Aussies in the WW2 . His nick -name was Lord Haw Haw he worked for the other side and when the Brits caught him they hung the c--t.

[MR WOBBLES]

A critically important tie-up between Qantas/Jetstar and Air Asia is about to be announced.

The founder and CEO of Air Asia, Tony Fernandes, the founding CEO of Jetstar as well as current CEO of Qantas, Alan Joyce, and his successor at Jetstar, Bruce Buchanan, will hold a joint press conference tomorrow morning in Sydney.


and then
AirAsia X to rescue Qantas fliers with special fares (http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/10/30/nation/9803726&sec=nation)

PETALING JAYA: Long haul budget airline AirAsia X has announced special fares for passengers affected by Qantas’ decision to ground its flights indefinitely.

“Anyone holding a valid Qantas ticket to any of our AirAsia X destinations in the next 48 hours can access our special one-way rescue fares of RM503,” said AirAsia X chief executive officer Azran Osman-Rani in a statement here yesterday


Oh how co-incidental just join the dots, air asia & jet star to the rescue.

[bruce320767]

Run this little prick off the planet. Good luck employees. Your resolve will put the rest of the world airline ceo's trying similar plans on notice. :D

[bankrunner]

Just as an aside to my other posts it just go to show how ******* stupid is to allow solid manufacturing industries to go off shore and to pretend an industry ,so fragile as tourism to take up the slack!

I hate to think what what Australia's economy will be like by the time my 1 year old daughter retires, after all the dirt worth digging out of the ground has been shipped to China and we have nothing more to offer.

[bankrunner]

I will be "fatigued due to the distress caused by the grounding of Qantas-I couldn't sleep cos of the worry" tomorrow before i sign on.There is a no-blame policy due to fatigue at qf isnt their?

Bet that's got more truth in it than any of the company's arguments right about now :E

[bankrunner]

Say they go for a termination... the next time Woolies/Coles have an IR tiff, they just instigate a lockout, shut down half the nation's supermarkets and the government will terminate the action and demand people return to work. Voila, Plutocracy Rules, and all thanks to a Labor government!'

Funny you mention Woolies. I spent a fair bit of time in their employ, as a nightfiller and then later as a night manager while getting my CPL.

Woolworths has a very heavily unionised workforce. You'd be hard pushed to find a single employee among the rank and file in the stores that isn't a member of the SDA; the union organiser swings past during every induction to do his spiel, and most people sign up on the spot. Every couple of years when EBA time comes round, Woolies bargain in good faith with the unions, end up with a reasonably happy workforce that feels valued, and the company continue to make record profits.

AJ could learn many lessons in IR from Woolies.

[rooboy762002]

"Human Error" ??

Funny how no company notices were released on Wednesday 26th.
So the template was based on something that hadn't even occurred!
More evidence of the lying f:mad: in management.

[The Kelpie]

Hello.

No update, for some reason I cannot get to the hearing in Melbourne!!!

I have my sources there though!!!

I have a copy of BBs memo to all Jetstar employees on the grounding- dated 26th October!! Just domt know how to post a copy on here!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Metro man]

BUT Woolworths competes with Coles, BiLo, Franklins etc who draw their work force from the same pool and are governed by the same laws.

Would Woolworths workers enjoy the same conditions if Nilgiris (a large Indian supermarket chain) could set up next door using Indian workers on Indian wages who weren't subject to Australian workplace laws ?

Would Australians pay higher prices to buy the same trolley full of groceries just to keep Woolworth workers pay and conditions up ?

This is where QF International finds itself.

[Seriously]

"Human Error" ??

Funny how no company notices were released on Wednesday 26th.
So the template was based on something that hadn't even occurred!
More evidence of the lying fhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif in management.

But that was J*'s defence, it was a memo they had sent on the 26th but they forgot to change the date with content...:yuk:

I wouldn't think that a major airline would resort to such poor IT practices as "copy and paste" memos:}

[1a sound asleep]

I have a copy of BBs memo to all Jetstar employees on the grounding- dated 26th October!! Just domt know how to post a copy on here!!

Take a photo or better still, scan it if you can.

Then go to tinypic.com and upload the image. That will give you a link to post here

[SpannerTwister]

I hate to think what what Australia's economy will be like by the time my 1 year old daughter retires, after all the dirt worth digging out of the ground has been shipped to China and we have nothing more to offer.

That's only half the problem...We've already shipped our manufacturing capability overseas and, as you mention, are now flat out exporting our natural resources.

No wuckkers they all say, Australia can be a "Service" economy !!

We can put overseas students through our Unis // Run large banks & financial centres // Run Medical centres of excellence....................

Yet there is no need for these services to be solely supplied by Australians, in Australia.

When happen next when The Big US Universities get serious about setting up campuses in every major city in Asia ?

When China / Thailand / Indonesia get serious and set up a fair-dinkum financial trading centres ?

If it was easy to cease manufacturing, what will stop the almost overnight loss of our "Service Industries" ??

ST

[Sonny Hammond]

Without a doubt it is incumbent upon every QF employee, locked out or otherwise to pack their uniform away and not step foot on QF property until this is over.
If you think for one minute that because your union isn't on the hit list this doesn't effect you, you're sadly mistaken.

The employees of QF are really the only ones who have the power to end this.

If no-one works there is no airline.

Execs must be reminded of this immediately.

Power to the people.

[bankrunner]

If the end product justifies the premium, absolutely. And that's one of the reasons why QF International finds itself in its current predicament.

Old 744s with failure prone and content sparse IFE, an unhealthy love for the warzone known as LAX (as opposed to excellent airports such as SFO)...

[Bahama Breeze]

I hate Tw itt er, but installed on the old iphone today to follow coverage.

Poor Leigh Howard would have s p o r t s b e t finger!

When I started following him a few hours ago, ~400 already on board. As at 2330 AEDT, 1,916 and counting were following. This is big.

After the TWU submissions, there is still ALAEA to come, yes? No?
Typical Qantas hogs all the airtime... ironically enough, all involved will now actually be suffering from fatigue for real. Cheers AJ.

[low_earth_orbit]

Interested parties will be picking through the details of Qantas' actions in the days to come....

The QF PR machine will be working very hard to put a veneer of respectability on what has been the equivalent of bringing a nuke to a knife fight.

A lot of stranded passengers that did not need to be stranded (or could have been warned) will need to be placated

An early play of the ace card will have to bite someone at QF, don't see how it cannot

Time for the unions to show that this is the kind of management that they have had to deal with - something like Bob Brown said, Millionaire board and management, arrogant and driven only by the bottom line lockout workers in red ties....

For all those self appointed capitalist commentators out there, there is more to business than the bottom line alone, AJ, LC and co will reap this lesson in the fullness of time, you can win the war but must win the peace and engage your staff - little chance of that now

[Metro man]

If the end product justifies the premium, absolutely.

Which is why Coles are still going strong even though ALDI are on the scene. I can get the weeks shopping done for a fair bit less in ALDI compared to Coles. But I can afford to spend a bit more to get what I want and find Coles cater well to my requirements. Nice premium cheeses, good deli selection, some good quality steak.

Yes I'll pay a bit more IF they're giving me what I want.:hmm:

[Kutta]

Based on the letter dated Wednesday 26 October reported by the ABC suggesting that the grounding and lock out was pre planned, I have chosen to lodge a formal complaint online with ASIC against Qantas and listing the respondents as Alan Joyce and Leigh Clifford. Let them fully investigate the allegations as they have rights to enter the premises and obtain whatever documents are required.

Australian Securities and Investments Commission - Complaining about companies or people (http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/ASIC.NSF/byHeadline/Complaining%20about%20companies%20or%20people#how)

[Collando]

If BB sent a memo on the 26 th in regard to the forthcoming grounding of Qantas. Tells you that he can't be that smart in my estimation, and by the way the computer dosnt lie as to when it was sent!!!!

[aseanaero]

I read this on the internet today , an airline review that gives Qantas management 1 star out of 5



Quote:
Corporate Culture
Qantas has long sat on its hands and relied on its flag carrier status to win itself customers, however the travelling public have demonstrated their dissatisfaction by booking on other airlines offering a superior product. The upper echelon of the company is an old boys club, devoid of ideas, initiative or talent where promotion is based on ‘brown nosing’ and knowing the right people. Corruption and incompetence thrive within the company at all levels. Senior management despise the airline’s unionised staff and the airline suffers from an upstairs/downstairs culture. Ordinary business decisions are celebrated as landmark achievements by Qantas’ mediocre managers. Alan Joyce has been accused of ‘Jetstarizing’ Qantas and many aviation commentators now believe he is the wrong man for the job and predict his demise. Qantas' poisonous corporate culture is the root cause for the airlines decline. It share price is nosediving along with support for the company. Management grounding of the airline is practically unprecedented in aviation and will cause long term damage to the airlines already tarnished reputation. Alan Joyce's 71% pay rise two days before he grounded the airline is a public relations disaster.
Qantas Airways - Airline Review

History
On 29 October 2011 with the support of Qantas' board, the airline's CEO announced the voluntary grounding of the airline. Irish-born Alan Joyce has been progressively de-Australianising 'the flying kangaroo' since he took over from the unloved Geoff Dixon in 2008. The airline has progressively shifted operations offshore, reduced wages and conditions for staff and outsourced anything its able to, to cheaper suppliers. This strategy has failed to produce benefits as the airlines market share has declined dramatically while its share price has halved in two years. Founded in 1920 in outback Queensland as the Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Services, Australia’s largest airline is the third oldest in the world (after KLM and Avianca). The airline evolved through many incarnations until it emerged in the 1950’s as an Australian Government owned international carrier. In 1992 Qantas absorbed the domestic Australian Airlines and in 1993 the airline was privatised. In 2001 Qantas was handed almost 90% domestic market share when its chief rival, Ansett, collapsed. In 2007 a consortium led by Macquarie Bank failed in their controversial bid to acquire the company. Geoff Dixon, the airline’s antagonistic CEO would have profited $60 million from the transaction and he recommended ‘sell’. Under the terms of the airlines privatisation Qantas must remain 51% Australian owned. In October 2011 the CEO claimed he had received death threats from union members, but the story is more likely to have been exploited to win public sympathy. Community support for Qantas is visibly evaporating and Virgin Australia has responded positively to fill the gap caused by Qantas' voluntary grounding.

Qantas Airways - Airline Review (http://www.destinationtravel.info/reviews/qantasairways.html)

And this to say about Jetstar

Corporate Culture
Jetstar shares the same corporate culture as its parent, Qantas. Nepotism, corruption, favouritism, incompetence and an old boy’s network all flourish within the Jetstar Club. Managers are out of touch with staff and there is a ‘them and us’ mentality throughout the company. Managers ignore real issues within the airline and tell staff to leave rather than fix problems. Jetstar work experience can leave many highly employable people scared from their hostile work experience within Jetstar. Jetstar’s former boss, Alan Joyce has gone on to become Qantas CEO. Jetstar has a nice colour scheme, logo and image (which it copied) but is not a nice company to be involved with. Some of the names it’s earned from customers include Onestar, Pornstar and ****star.

Jetstar - Rating
Cheap, nasty and awful slowing taking over Qantas’ network and spreading through Asia.

[Pundit]

Sometime back I posted this on a different thread.

I had a very interesting email from a colleague who is closely associated with Irish Business. It is his opinion that we are all labouring under our Australian beliefs and teachings. AJ isn’t attached to, or constrained by, these beliefs, teaching or our history. He is not an Australian and had been brought up in a Country where intellectual betrayal, or more specifically, mental reservation, casuistry and equivocation are accepted practice.

As he (my colleague) explained, the Collins Dictionary defines mental reservation as....’a tacit withholding of full assent or an unexpressed qualification made when one is taking an oath, making a statement, etc.’ Casuistry is ....’ reasoning that is specious, misleading, or oversubtle’.

The doctrines of mental reservation and casuistry were developed in the middle ages and are most often associated with the Jesuits. Mental reservation involves truths "expressed partly in speech and partly in the mind," relying upon the idea that God hears what is in one's mind while human beings hear only what one speaks. Verbally, “I did not steal any sheep on Tuesday”, mentally continuing, “it was on Wednesday”. It is a way of telling lies while being able to claim that you’ve been completely honest. For instance, the Primate of Ireland, Cardinal Desmond Connell, was comfortable with telling journalists that diocesan funds are not used to pay off the victims of clerical abusers, and he was very pleased with the subtlety of his language. He took great satisfaction in explaining that he didn’t say such funds were not used in the past, and if the journalists happened to be hoodwinked by his clever use of language, why that was just their own misfortune for not being as slippery smart as the Cardinal!

In our culture the statement, “Mr. Boyce is not in the office” typically means that Boyce is not taking phone calls right now (or, at least not this particular phone call). The caller understands (or should understand) that this is a polite way of saying, “Boyce is not available to you at this moment, even though he is actually in the office.” No one is really fooled by this expression using ambiguous language; we simply take it for what it is.

President Bill Clinton was educated at the foremost Jesuit training centre, Georgetown University. According to Clinton's biographer David Maraniss, the President owed his formidable skills as a criminal defendant to 'his training in casuistry at Georgetown University'. Casuistry is equivocal to rationalization, “to cause something to seem reasonable, to provide plausible but untrue reasons for conduct”. We all recall Bill Clinton, a former Rhodes Scholar, insist that he did not have sexual relations with that woman, when most guys in his position would be more than happy to think of what he got up to as just that!

Closer to home there was the Australian Spycatcher affair. Sir Robert Armstrong, now Baron Armstrong, produced the magnificent phrase “economical with the truth”. The world loved the patent absurdity of Armstrong’s phrase, and laughed at it, because we all understood what he meant. Economical with the truth! Every parent knows who took the sweets, or put a football through the window. It was Mister Nobody or maybe a kamikaze.

The question that should be asked of AJ and the QF spin doctors is, ‘Do you have a mental reservation in respect of your statement?’

[sani-com]

Submissions are over at FWA. Adjourn for 10 minutes then a possible decision. (twittered by Leigh Howard)

[glekichi]

I've just been reading through the Fair Work Act and I don't see how the government or minister or anyone can terminate OR suspend the protected industrial action being taken by the pilots or the engineers.

The Act specifies that FWA MUST terminate or suspend protected industrial action if it could "cause significant damage to the Australian economy or an important part of it."

The definition of protected industrial action is:
a) employee claim action for the agreement
b) employee response action for the agreement
or
c) employer response action for the agreement

So, FWA MUST terminate or suspend the employer response action by Qantas management, as that is what is causing the damage to the economy.

The action by the pilots is in no way harming the Australian economy and they therefore have no right to suspend or terminate it!

The action by the engineers, while more drastic than the pilots, could hardly be called a risk to the Australian economy.

Thoughts?

(Reference Fair Work Act 2009, 408 and 424.)

[bob johns]

Bank runner I have been in my life an apprentice electrician ,maintainance sparks in a tyre factory ,an operator in an electricity distribution organisation a professional pilot for 25 years ( 12500 hrs)unions were-ETU- AFAP -PNGAPA CFMEU and held positions other than just being a member .Unions are essential . In the work place. Very essential, they need to be strong and honest in their dealings with management Unfortunately the other mob dont always be honest either ,some of the bastardry in the Pilbara by the Union (S) and management. In the late 70 /80 would make you sick. Unions should have no direct place in politics at all ,other than to be heard from the outside of parliament like the rest of us.In this affair I hope the QF staff ,the lot, prevail over what is just another nail in the coffin of Aussie Nationalism if the little creep and his mongrel mates get their way.

[600ft-lb]

latikambourke (http://twitter.com/#%21/latikambourke) Latika Bourke



BREAKING. FULL BENCH WILL RULE ON THE QANTAS DISPUTE AT 1AM.



leigh_howard (http://twitter.com/#%21/leigh_howard) leigh_howard



FWA: We will hand down a decision at 1 am (!)



not long now

[locusthunter]

Decision at 1AM

...

Flying kangaroo or kangaroo court?

[gretzky99]

Whilst we're waiting for FWA, I'd just like to express my appreciation for Leigh_Howard and the work he's put in tonight to allow us to keep up with proceedings.

I'm not a twit user so can't thank him personally, but would like him to know that his efforts haven't gone unnoticed. Thanks Leigh.

P.S. My thanks also go out to others offering similar updates tonight.

[1a sound asleep]

Hope is Alan Joyce will become the most hated man in Australia. I doubt he will ever be able to fly on a Qantas plane again or show his head in public. Doubt he will still be able to live in The Rocks either - too small a place to hide.

I reckon give him max 12 months and he will be gone

[Xcel]

Glekichi.
Qantas have done c).
It is now impacting the economy...

[jieunni]

Not that long to go now.

What I am wondering however, is what will happen immediately after judgment is entered in favour of one of the two parties? From what I have read so far, passengers scheduled to fly on Monday have already been notified that their flights have been cancelled.

[locusthunter]

Whilst we're waiting for FWA, I'd just like to express my appreciation for Leigh_Howard and the work he's put in tonight to allow us to keep up with proceedings.


Yes, a big thanks to Leigh Howard and others following proceedings closely. It's nice to be in the age of twitter... bet that would have been handy in '89 !!


Leigh Howard...Appeals: Full federal court or (also) High court

[1a sound asleep]

What I am wondering however, is what will happen immediately after judgment is entered in favour of one of the two parties? From what I have read so far, passengers scheduled to fly on Monday have already been notified that their flights have been cancelled.

More worrying is what if one of the parties appeals to the High Court. IF qantas gets its way it could mean the end to unionism in Australia as we know it. Do you think the unions would give up and not appeal

[locusthunter]

I don't know how drastic the outcomes could be, but there seems to be a lot at stake here. If Qantas management win, it will surely have poignant results for other unions.

I think that they will think that it's worth fighting this one all the way. If the Unions lose this and then give up, they may have lost the battle, but they will have also the lost war. They will be in so much of a weaker negotiating position. At any moment knowing they could be trumped, it will be another example of breaking unions' backs. Any (un)qualified opinions on this?

[Baileys]

I don't see how anyone is going to win out of this in the long term. Win or lose - everyone who works for Qantas will feel the pain.

[SimonBl]

It's only 10pm here in Perth, I feel sorry for those in the Eastern States...

[locusthunter]

Yes, past 1AM here... we must be close to a decision now though.... no sign of FWA though... they shouldn't be too much longer....given the time, FWA might need to look through it's own workplace conditions (fair call Leigh Howard)...

....still waiting... Judge's associates missing...

[jieunni]

Is there some sort of live stream or publication wrt to the FWA ruling? Or are you just getting this off the SMH?

[SimonBl]

Interesting read, while we wait:

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce made phone call to PM Julia Gillard but was ignored | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/national/qantas-ceo-alan-joyce-made-phone-call-to-pm-julia-gillard-but-was-ignored/story-e6frfkvr-1226180983230)

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Google ABC 24 stream

or follow this

ABC iview (http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/view/597007)

[SimonBl]

And there are a number of Pprune_Twitter (I mean the latter, of course, but PPRuNe edits it to be PPPRuNe only) users who are doing a stirling job at keeping us updated live... Ben Thompson, Leigh Howard, to name 2.

[Octane]

If Q international is losing $200 mil a year, how is ANZ doing it? They seem to be OK. Then again they have a CEO who engages with the workforce apparently.....

It's not rocket science...

[Seriously]

I'm sure Qantas now blaming Gillard for this is going to go down well with the government... What a bunch of :mad: idiots...

What a bunch of muppets!

:}

[locusthunter]

Yes, the TwiTte r guys are doing a great job. Keep the updates coming....

[Mr.Buzzy]

"We just......"

Nuff said. Clown.

Bbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzz

[SimonBl]

All still quiet at FWA, for those without TwitPPRuNe...

[locusthunter]

...30 mins now passed... looks like it might be a bit longer for this decision... should happen within the next hour though...

[Mstr Caution]

Vote Now:

Poll: Has Qantas gone too far by grounding its entire fleet and locking out workers?

Qantas crisis grips nation (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-crisis-grips-nation-20111030-1mqhy.html#poll)

[SimonBl]

thompsonbenji Ben Thompson
#qantas message from judges chambers: not far off.

[onetrack]

@SimonBl - The disingenuousness of AJ is beyond belief. He actually claims to have tried to call Julia Gillard, to get her approval of Govt intervention, so that he would not then proceed with the lockout?

However - he must have been the only person in Australia, who apparently did not know that Gillard was totally tied up, right at that very time, in the CHOGM talkfest, and could not possibly answer his call in the time frame he set!!

This arrogant prick must think we are all total f***king idiots, to believe the crap he spouts!! :ugh:

[SimonBl]

onetrack, I am sure that AJ genuinely believed that JG would ask the Commonwealth leaders to 'hold 5' while she took his call. He does appear to be mad, after all.

[Ngineer]

Yes, and unfortunately the rest of Australia is getting a taste of the same sort of crap that we have had to put up with for the last few years. Should never have gone this far.

[Seriously]

Like i said, the government must be happy that they are now being blamed for the whole thing...:yuk:

I liked the chap in Darwin calling Alan Joyce a jerk, i think i would of used stronger words!:ok:

[Led Zep]

Here we go...

[SimonBl]

Looks like FWA is coming back now... It's a written decision, apparently

[ejectx3]

Why does Pprune change t___ter and f___book to Pprune anyway? I don't get it?

[Anulus Filler]

Judges Associates dissappear again. #Qantas v #ausunions Leigh Howard


Rather symbolic this. These judges are in and out like its their own dispute. :confused:

[Anulus Filler]

Decision now ready. Vasoline jar is open.

[forever flying]

ABC news 24 hopefully to broadcast live pictures soon.

[DeafStar]

Twitter dude suggests that because its a written ruling that a high court challenge is on the cards.

[jieunni]

My prediction:

FWA enter judgment for Qantas (termination), relevant unions and other stakeholders appeal to the HCA, HCA does not stay the prima facie judgment at least until they hand down their own judgment, and sometime during this period, the government apply relevant legislation to order a termination.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Screwed again.

[1a sound asleep]

Breaking: Fair work australia has ordered the #qantas industrial action be terminated.

[Anulus Filler]

SHAFTED!!!!

[ruprecht]

Terminated.

[Led Zep]

F**ked. :yuk:

[CaptR]

Joyce got what he wanted

[SimonBl]

Wow - this ain't over yet by a long shot...

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Cun_s!.......goodnight

[Mr.Buzzy]

That's the way. Protect big business. A..holes.

[Anulus Filler]

Joyce got what he wanted

How is he going do deal with the staff???

[SimonBl]

Live interviews on ABC News 24 now...

[aiming point]

A person would have to feel utterly and completely sick going back to work for that QF Board under circumstances like this. :yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Seriously]

Shouldn't all Qantas pilots now say they are too fatigued "stressed" to operate for the next day?

That was the companies excrement...

How can THEIR safety risk assesment judge that it is now OK for the crew to operate flights?

[Octane]

I can imagine, rightfully so, Q employees tomorrow seeking medical advice due to stress....

But is that what Joyce and his mates want? Do they really want to break this company?

He claimed today the staff are trashing the brand. Reality is, he and the board have ruined the brand and have been doing so for quite a while..

I don't know how those people can sleep let alone enjoy their wealth..

I'm disgusted.

[phatmike128]

Good to hear someone on TV making some sense right now: "Alan Joyce has failed!" (ACTU Sec. Jeff Lawrence)

[Jonny Suave Trousers]

Termination of industrial action now... How does this play out now?

[Ngineer]

AJ, LC and LS have shown the staff, and all of Australia, their true colours. I hope these guys sleep well tonight after shafting thousands of Aussie employees and their families.

[Going Boeing]

Hold the line guys - the fat lady hasn't yet begun to sing. :ugh:

[ABAT4t2]

hear hear and some posters should have a bit more patience and read and understand what is happening here.

It is not over by a long shot.

[Airbubba]

Jeff Lawrence of the ACTU is indeed putting a very positive spin on the ruling.

[The The]

Red ties for sale on eBay!

[Fly_by_wire]

I challenge AJ to show his face at an airport in the next 24 hours and face the music

[sani-com]

How do you stop "work to rule"? Shouldn't we be following QF procedures all the time?

[Here to Help]

http://i42.tinypic.com/dd15dt.jpg

[Yamma]

To play the devils advocate here.

A company wants to spread its wings, make money, and be a player in the "world wide market".

How best to begin?

#1 Be competitive.

#2 Have a brand that has been tested and tried.

#3 Be experienced

# 4 Be able to undercut its competition.

QANTAS has all of the above and much more. BUT.....Its workforce lives in a fantasy, "living and working in Australia" is apparently living the dream AKA the bee all and end all of the ultimate Australian dream. What a joke, living in Australia at the end of the day is expensive and unsustainable. A lot of people in Oz need to get out and understand that there is a BIG world out there. Is like the play ground at school! You cant win a battle on the play ground saying that "I"need to be treated right.

QANTAS is spreading its wings and will ultimately win, and guess what living in Australia is GREAT, but at the end of the day is not "living the dream" as some would believe.:cool:

[zoics88]

from the SMH:
One our readers raises the issue on the effect on essential medical services:
"I was meant to see patients in K tomorrow morning for scans to check on their cancer status but now I'm not able to. Qantas is the only carrier of urgent medical isotopes. Whilst I support moves to bring the dispute to a head I think the national rather than political interests should have taken precedence. I would like to know how Alan and the board feel about the impact and distress caused to patients right across the country? Perhaps we should debate the need to a nationalised segment of Australian aviation to ensure continuation of essential community services".

this stunt was pre-determined, planned for and contingencies put in place prior (some better than others)
LC intimated as much, after the AGM, with comments of a 'mandate' to run QANTAS as he/they see fit.

nice use of initial confusion over cause of grounded flights: was it unions?

the timing perfect: CHOGM = surprise and max embarrassment to the govt,
1st tuesday in november = max disruption to celebs & vips.
not to mention all those others stranded around the world..

QANTAS spin blames unions and will continue to do so.
(not seen much of olivia lately, locked out is she?)

the damage to brand and image will be astronomical and this will bring AJ and his cohorts to the brink, it's all about perception, the vibe, and i reckon they've misread the whole thing - it could go any where from here...

unity is key

bon chance

[ejectx3]

y-QiPB7C-EA&sns

[WheelsandBrakes]

The guys at the top kill off Qantas within 6 months.

[ejectx3]

Wonder who decided this code red should be called?

"A CRISIS was declared in the Australian tourism industry today as the workplace law umpire continued a prolonged hearing on the Qantas lock-out."

Give you one guess....

[AWB_Clerk]

OK, so the FWA have decreed a termination of industrial action. The lockout is stopped and flight are to resume in order to put a stop to the turmoil the Australian public are experiencing.

Without smartarse trolling replies, I would like to ask if there is the ability to appeal the termination decision to, say, the High Court given that the FWA has said that the PIA to date has not been of such a disruptive nature as QF spin would have us all believe?

AWBC

[...still single]

AJ won this dispute because he had the PR.

Unions need to step up and get the word out. Forget the pay rise and all the little stuff that doesn't matter.

Make this a single issue fight. Offshoring. Hammer that one issue until it's sorted, then move onto the next issue -but with no more dispute allowed, I'm not sure if ANY PR is allowed now.

Very displeased with FWA, unions played by the rules and end up getting kicked in the teeth. AJ gets to keep the status quo, which is exactly what he wanted. Arbitration will be a total waste of time, everyone may get a token pay rise while the airline continues to be gutted.

[Me Myself]

No I don't. I'd rather have a job.

[Me Myself]

Hamma

Well put, you nailed it. Oz is a great place but boy, how much it's changed in the 20 years I have been visiting very regularly.
From the friendly down to earth in a beautifull environment, Sydeny' s become a city of greed and stupidity and one of the most expensive in the world at that.

QF employees, do not realize there is a world out there.

What this little irish mongrel is doing is dispicable and QF employees did see what was coming.
The man is mean and crazy and doesn't give 2 farts about you. He'll do you without a second thought...........and that sucks.

How your politicians can look themselves in the mirror remains a baffle.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I think I may sleep on my comments. Just remember long term we have an airline to save. The transcript makes for an interesting read.

[Artificial Horizon]

Be very careful out there now! Having been through an industrial dispute where the airline management did something very similar it led to a number of people calling for unauthorised action i.e. mass sickouts, work to rule etc. We were told in no uncertain terms that this would result in immediate dismissal.

It would not suprise me if AJ's next move is to make an 'example' of someone who in frustration breaches a minor rule when calling in 'sick' after this debacle.

[Flugbegleiter]

"And the leader of Qantas shouts: Victory!"

Google translate into German:

"Und der Führer der Qantas ruft: Sieg!"

Sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it???

Well, let's hope this is not a victory for this destructive QF board. It isn't over yet. I am really angry at this management for putting staff and passengers through this. What huge damage this will have done to the brand. That damage cannot be estimated in $$$ losses per day. These guys are maniacs.

[jet-lover]

its pretty much obvious fact that big corporation like Quantas never lose especially against ordinary employees.
its almost the same as what is seen around the rest of the developed world. huge corporations always invest a lot on election of law makers and politicians so that they make sure their vested interest of seeking profit never derails from its path. Australia is no different in this regard. AJ and board members knew this calculation very well. contrary to what looked like to some observers, they r not stupid enough to shoot their own foot by grounding all planes. the only reason they did that is bcoz the return from the outcome of the mess we witnessed is much higher than the loss of daily income of around 20 mil. usd
its the new world order. HAVES always win against HAVE NOTS.:{ majority doesn't matter anymore. the rule of the game is simple; keep building ur wealth and make sure the influential lobbyists r doing their job and all will b well no matter how much the majority continues to resist.
whats next for Quantas ? outsource operation to asia to abuse cheap labour ? why not, as long as it brings in higher profit for shareholders. who cares about Asians working as slaves and at same Australians who will b losing their job.
some blamed Quantas employees of being greedy asking for more during such economic hardship. then how come AJ and other executives get as much as 71% benefit package increment ? :confused:
''Fairness'' is a word that has been deleted from the dictionary of big corporations long ago. CONSPIRACY, LOBBYING, ILLUSIVE CORRUPTION r the new champion words.

[Pukka]

Qantas played the safety card.

Will Qantas conduct a risk assessment of the company climate to assure the board, the shareholders and the travelling public that it is safe to recommence flying?

Will CASA require such an assessment?

No one need respond, I know the answer to both questions.

[Scorpion1080]

ALAEA Fed Sec: Just remember long term we have an airline to save (http://www.pprune.org/members/205449-alaea-fed-sec)


That will be hard when you have a corrupt board running the company who only care about money.

[aseanaero]

Dark times for Qantas staff , the start of massive changes happened last Saturday.

What do you do as a customer ? If I fly Qantas in the future am I supporting that little irish CEO or the pilots , engineers and staff , some of whom I grew up with and learnt to fly with ?

I was one of those customers who was prepared to pay a premium over the budget carriers to fly on an aircraft flown by pilots that are trained to a high standard and maintained by people that could read a maintenance manual written in English and actually understand what they read (I've worked in Asia a long time now where in some countries one person reads the manual and passes down his interpretation to his staff and successors)

How many acceptable total hull losses are considered 'industry normal' in future corporate plans ?

If the workers and unions are smart the best way to replace this current group of senior managers is to look for breaches in the law regarding material disclosure that may have occurred over the preceding few weeks (it could even be months)

To the staff of Qantas , I don't think the idea of inflight announcements was professional and the staff were also willing to strand passengers at short notice , I'm not in you're shoes so I don't understand your frustrations but both sides of this dispute are willing to inconvenience your customers , some of whom have been flying with you for decades (like me), Joyce just did it to the max.

Brand loyalty will only be stretched so far , if the Qantas 'family' is now totally dysfunctional (as it sounds) and management and staff focusing on the 'war within' rather than making sure the airline is running safely I think I will be staying away for a few months until I hear a bit of harmony again.

What a mess ...






.

[driver121242]

Well first of all I am a Qantas pilot.
If you can sit back and look what Joyce has done, it has to rank as one of the smartest industrial moves anywhere in the world. You really have to hand it to him as a brilliant strategist. - You don't have to agree with what he is doing, that is another thing.

Lets look at what he has done. ....
He has locked out the workers. A move that may or may not be legal. Well it is not. He is in breach of so many laws he could be put in behind bars for a long time.....
Well not really. He grounded the airline. - yep he can do that anytime, he is the CEO. And he scared the government / workers / unions that he had a result BEFORE he locked out a single worker. Yep no one was ever locked out. so he was not in breach of the law. Kudos to Alan

He has killed the governments IR laws in 48 hours. Yep what Abbot has been trying to do for so long, Alan has done in just 48 hours. Now all you have to do to ban your employees from doing anything is to lock them out over the weekend. Kudos for Alan

He has killed any hope of Gillard ever getting back in.
Wondered why he told the media that he gave the prime minister 3 hours to respond to a phone call? (Well he didn't do that OW told the media that, so Alan has a fall girl.) He did that to throw fuel on the fire. The ALP is going down. What do you do to get political favours from the new government? You throw kids overboard, or give the PM 3 hours to answer a phone call when she is hosting the heads of state, and has no time to consult with her advisors and obtain legal advice. The phone message was probably something like "Hi, call AJ it is really important." Not if I don't get a response in 3 hours I am shutting down the Australian air network.
So just how much will Abbot owe Joyce for humiliating Gillard in front of the world leaders?

So in 48 hours he has removed any possibility of strikes, work to rule, PA's. He has killed the governments IR laws - no more PIA.

He has deeply wounded Gillard.

So the mileage he will get with the new government will enable him to do anything with the airline. Expect
1: 50 flight attendants to Pax (like NZ and the US)
Expect softening of the QF sales act.
Expect modified flight and duty times.

Yep it was a brilliant move. He has out smarted all of the unions and the government.

I just wish he was working for the good of the company........

[Waghi Warrior]

I simply won't considering even looking at a Qantas group ticket in the future if I have to pay for it, the brand is now totally destroyed, talk about a sad loose of a national icon, disgracefull to say the least.

Fly Virgin !

The government also deserves to be thrown out over this saga as it's quite obvvious who's pissing in who's pocket.

[Torres]

I don't think your assessment is correct but there are no winners so far, certainly not the company, staff or passengers. I doubt the Board have the same level of shareholder confidence they had a week ago.

The full ramifications of the Qantas Board decision are yet to play out over coming months. I would not think the Qantas Board have too many friends on either side of Parliament today.

It would be a weak Government that rescinds the Qantas Sale Act, indeed Senator Xenaphon is proposing an amendment Bill to strengthen the Act.

[Mr Pilot 2007]

Looks like the spineless little irishman got what he wanted, Fair Work Australia ordered an end to his lockout and industrial action for 42 days.

If they hadnt, qf would have lost so much money it couldnt recover.
I think he was expecting Fair Work or the Govt to step in, otherwise his job and reputation would be mud.

Anyone believe the loss claims qf international is making, or are they fiddling the books and sending money to lowlife j*, then claiming they need to layoff 1000 staff and reduce pay.

Something smells in qf management, maybe its the dirty millions joyce is been "compensated".

Dont let this greedy, incompetant little irishman and his incompetant board win. He is selling off qf from beneath you and destroying 91 years of experience for his own gain.

I really wonder how long his job would have lasted if no-one had intervened with the lockout.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Termination or suspensions, who cares.

You can still choose to do overtime or not, an individual choosing to work to rule is not illegal, how do they prove it ?. (as long as it is not ordered by your union). Work-to-rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule)

Working to rule is meeting the bare minimum requirements of your employment contract, nothing more.

This is far from over.

[ohallen]

The leaks from QF about the phone calls to the PM's office whether true or not, are certainly just an arse covering exercise. This will undoubtedly inflame govt relations and if current govt lasts another 18 months then the Rat still has to deal with them.

If I was a mean, nasty and vindictive pollie, I would unleash ASIC, ACCC and CASA on this lot for a war of attrition.

The thought is very appealling because you cannot tell me there hasnt been a breach of Corps Law somewhere in this mess. Have heard rumours of catering being cancelled last week but cannot find source, so that would be an interesting fact if it could be proven.

This is far from over and the Irishman wont be happy until the whole Rat is crushed under Orange Jelly.

[SilverSleuth]

The war is definitely over. He will wait it out now and nothing can be done.
DoNt make an agreement during the bargaining period, Wait for the umpire again, be told to sign a 2% pay deal and don't have to sign any work security clauses. Wola, it's all done for him!
And so the Asia plan begins. Of coarse morale is gone for good but let's
be honest, he doesn't give a sh&t about that.
(btw I would expect more expansion plans/announcement from JB at VA soon also). He knows there is now a lot
Of disenchanted business customers. Another 5-10 330 wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

I believe FWA will draft a better EBA than you'll be able to negotiate, its a game of chicken.

The pilots, baggage handlers and engineers have not flinched, the company inflamed the situation because it knew you wouldn't fold and tried to get the government to intervene, which indirectly they did, stay the path.

[Andu]

driver 121242 is pretty close to the mark in his post #742.

If you want some idea of what you are up against, here's an example: Tim Webster, former television anchor and now consigned to a weekend daytime slot on Sydney radio 2UE, was editorialising yesterday (Sunday) about Julia Gillard's mishandling of the Qantas debacle and waxing lyrical about one Robert James Lee Hawke, who "had a close relationship" with Sir Peter Abeles, (said with much approval), "which allowed him to fix the 1989 **pilots' strike** (his term) "in short order" (said with much approval).

He then went on to say "...love him or loathe him, you have to accept that this was Bob Hawke's finest hour".

That's what you're up against.

[buttmonkey1]

You really have to hand it to him as a brilliant strategist.

pigs arse,
more like a drama queen.
dancing to clifford and freehills tune.

and the pilots submission in fwa,
looked like 'it wasn't my fault'...
well... mummy told you not to play with the
bad boys down the road, now go to your room
and take off that rediculous tie.

[RodH]

You have all been " Bene & vere shafted "

Sad day but it was very clear to see what was going to happen.

I am so glad I have retired from this sad industry!!!!!!!!!!

:{:{:{:{

[schlong hauler]

The CEO and board are on the nose big time. They may have had a small win from the FWA but the bigger picture has been revealed. The true intent and the manipulation of both the government and traveling public is exposed as the most cynical act it was. The backlash from Canberra can't be recovered with Grange and Ipads. Both Evans, Albanese and Shorten have been very unimpressed with the grounding. The arrogance of the board has just shone the spotlight squarely on themselves. Perhaps this will uncover the true nefarious dealings of management in their pursuit to run Qantas down and cross subsidize
J*. Amendments to the Sale Act could be in the wings. The strategic and economic shortcomings of the legislation have been exposed for all to see.

[Ultralights]

no, you dont have to actually resign, just give a weeks notice. and after a few days, withdraw that notice..

[Shed Dog Tosser]

The pilots, baggage handlers and engineers all need to resign en-mass on Tuesday at 0900. That will get the Boards attention.

AP,

Thats was tried in 1989, it did not work then and will not work now.

This is now more so "death by a thousand cuts" for the company, they have not won, unless a substandard EBA is signed.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

no, you dont have to actually resign, just give a weeks notice. and after a few days, withdraw that notice.

That won't work either, once you give your notice, the company is not obliged to accept a rescindment.

[boofta]

You silly little irish git.It's one thing to fight the unions but what in HELL
were you trying to achieve by turning aircraft around that were about
to take off, loaded with passengers.
This is industrial irish TERRORISM against your customers.
It's a lame excuse to say it was a safety issue, you could'nt
trust your pilots not to do something silly against the aircraft.
My friend, your brain is miswired, pilots are not that stupid.
In any case how could you trust the engineers to park the planes.
Screw your customers, the latest Qantas tactic,go home git!

[Big M]

SDT said


The pilots, baggage handlers and engineers have not flinched, the company inflamed the situation because it knew you wouldn't fold and tried to get the government to intervene, which indirectly they did, stay the path.


Shed Dog Tosser (nice tag) is correct,

Tah Yoonions did not play the expected role of bad boy as so desperately wanted by management. They have not flinched so the little un-catholic boy threw the toys out of the cot and the guvmint had to step in. (reluctantly mind you and completely blindsided -they are NOT happy Jan and will be after their own little bit of payback from the leprichaun)

Stick together and if little sausage sucker can on a whim inflict a hit of $20-$30m then I will be seeing this as a future target. (I'm a good employee that follows the example that is laid down from esteemed management) There's 3.5 billion in reserve and it will be my mission to blow it all so there's nothing left for the leeches to suck on.

No companies / people named or implied! :E

[AdamFrisch]

I think it was the only option Joyce had and a very brave move. It might just have saved Qantas.

As a Swede on onlooker from abroad, I can only draw parallels to the Scandinavian carrier SAS. Go back 30 years and SAS was a truly intercontinental airline with daily flights to South America, Asia, the US and everywhere you can imagine in Europe, running their DC8's, DC9's, DC10's and 747's. Fuelled on by the good times and the self love of all the 'Best Airline Of The Year' awards they picked up like candy in the 80's, the staff and the unions got big heads and started to demand ever greater perks and less working hours. They completely ignored any outside factors such as recessions, competition, changing demographics etc and plodded merrily on with their requests and still do.

Every year over the last 20 years, there has been some kind of union disruption and "slow bake", designed to interrupt as much as possible until they get what they want. And like all union action, it's us, the travellers, the third party that suffers. This is of course the whole idea. And because SAS is co-owned by the governments of Norway, Sweden and Denmark, semi-socialist, the hardest hitting union, the Danish one, has been allowed to set the agenda. This has resulted in SAS being literally obliterated in Sweden and Norway when it comes to intercontinental travel. The Danish unions decided that Kastrup is the hub and that was that, so now the antiquated hub system of the 70s' in full force - you can't travel anywhere without changing planes at Kastrup. And as airline travel is today, people simply won't do it and chose other alternatives.

The result is that SAS is today a sad, sad shadow of its former self. Constantly bankrupt, the governments have to chip in every year to keep it afloat. The pilots and cabin crew have ridiculous pay for the amounts they work - higher than any other airline in the world, I think. They don't fly anywhere you want to go and if they do, you have to change planes in Kastrup when all the competitors go direct. And because of labour unions, the cabin crew is 55+ years old, have been doing it for too long and subsequently hate their customers - they smile at you through gritted teeth and are sarcastic. Virtually all the intercontinental lines are dropped and they're desperately hanging on to a few profitable Euro runs. The MD80's are well over 20 years past their prime but they're so skint they can't even afford to replace them with even 10 year old aircraft. It's a mess.

Now, new companies are moving in, making inroads and soon there won't be a SAS when the governments hit recession and don't fancy feeding the monster to the tune of 6 billion each year. It's a tragic set of events, and we Scandinavians were as proud of SAS as you are of Qantas. SAS used to be the benchmark, the clean, minimalist, good service, high quality Scandinavian alternative for international travel.

Everyone here knows who's to blame - unions that refuse to move with the times.

A slow SAS death is not something you should want for Qantas and therefore I think Alan Joyce did the right thing. He brought it to a head and for good or bad, something new will arise from that and positions will move. His job is to save Qantas in the long run, and all the other options were designed to do the opposite. Maybe not immediately, but the 'slow bake' would have killed it eventually, you can be sure of that.

[Algie]

Freehills, James Strong, naive pilots, recalcitrant management, no right to strike, Justice Giudice, Heather Ewart, compliant government, overseas carriers on domestic routes........

Talk about déjà vu!.....where did the last 22 years go?

[Mud Skipper]

AdamFrisch,

With all respect I think you have not a clue. This is not SAS and the lessons from that failure have been learn long ago.

This is a new but old peanut shell game and there is no way you would connect the name AJ with the long term future of Qantas. Spend a bit of time and find out what is really going on before you sprout drivel will you.

[obira]

Does anyone know where I can find FWA's judgment? It is not available on their website yet.

I'm particularly interested in the reasoning in relation to the pilots' PIA.

[ABAT4t2]

FWA headquarters, 2nd floor, room 118. Second filing cabinet from the right

[600ft-lb]

I wonder if Gillard, upset about looking like a bit of a dill and just been totally embarrased in her home country in front of world leaders, is going to take a round about way of doing something similar to Joyce and co.

Like the Qantas Sale Act amendment about to go before parliament.

[Mustaphabeer]

This debacle has highlighted the need for the government to regulate the minimum requirements that Qantas must always provide in regards to availability of aircraft to ensure continuity of travel for the Australian public.

Regardless of Joyce's motives I think now the Qantas sale act will be strengthened to ensure that the airline remains in Australia, and the board to ensure these requirements are always maintained. Anything else and any future governments can be held to ransom at any time by the board.

I do believe an own goal may have been scored by Joyce et al.

[unionist1974]

"Slow Bake " eh Stevie BOY , more like a deep fry . Time for you and your mates woodie and sheldon to start behaving like Union Officials and stop acting like media tarts . You lost touch with the tried and true union actions and let your egos take over . A sorry outcome for your rank and file members , who followed your "leadership" . You might get 3.5% pa but little else out of arbitration . A comprehensive loss for you and your Executive team, back to spanner turning but not for you .

[600ft-lb]

Unintended consequences can be roughly grouped into three types:

A positive, unexpected benefit (usually referred to as serendipity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serendipity) or a windfall (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/windfall)).
A negative, unexpected detriment occurring in addition to the desired effect of the policy (e.g., while irrigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrigation) schemes provide people with water for agriculture, they can increase waterborne diseases that have devastating health effects, such as schistosomiasis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schistosomiasis)).
A perverse effect contrary to what was originally intended (when an intended solution makes a problem worse), such as when a policy has a perverse incentive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive) that causes actions opposite to what was intende

[Short_Circuit]

This debacle has highlighted the need for the government to regulate the minimum requirements that Qantas must always provide in regards to availability of aircraft to ensure continuity of travel for the Australian public.

like not being able to ground the fleet at a whim for bully boy tactics.

[gobbledock]

The war is far from over. There is more than one way to skin a rat.
As shed dog tosser mentioned, 'work to rule' is one method to get back at the mucous running QF. Not to mention overtime bans, refusal to extend hours, managing all the parameters of a flight to include the least fuel effective method, and absolutely going out of your way to ensure that the company operates as inneficiently as is legally possible.

[The The]

This debacle has highlighted the need for the government to regulate the minimum requirements that Qantas must always provide in regards to availability of aircraft to ensure continuity of travel for the Australian public.


More than that. Now is the time to nationalise Qantas. Joyce now thinks he has a green light to dismantle Qantas and will happen very very quickly.

If Qantas was bought out by the government, Jetstar and FF could almost immediately be floated and recoup much of the initial cost. Qantas domestic would return a tidy dividend over the years to come and international restructured (with 777's) to profitability with no subsidising Jetstar.

Engineering excellence would be restored with onshore heavy maintenance ensuring a viable aviation maintenance industry remains in this country.

[Short_Circuit]

Engineering excellence would be restored with onshore heavy maintenance ensuring a viable aviation maintenance industry remains in this country. not to mention the Chinese will sent aircraft to us for overhaul as they will have soooo many A/C they could not possibly cope alone.

[600ft-lb]

I'm not sure the government would go for direct nationalisation of anything ever - it's counter intuitive to their governing mantra for the last 30 years.

But I can definitely understand if the government via a proxy - ie the future fund or whatever became a majority controlling shareholder of an industry in the national interest and still allowed private sector persons to run the company.. just not in an irresponsible way like has been for the last 5 years

freight cartels, apa buyout, offshore of a former government entity buy stealth, nest feathering and now the latest debacle.

[mikk_13]

Doesn't the gov allocate how many seats to airlines on international routes?

[DJ737]

Yes, in most cases they do. However for whatever reason QF refuse to use their allocation and then grizzle when other countries airline use their allocation. :rolleyes:

[gobbledock]

Katter calls for Joyce's head

On Monday 31 October 2011, 9:10


Federal independent MP Bob Katter says Qantas CEO Alan Joyce should be sacked before he destroys the airline.
Qantas has been told to get its planes back in the air after Fair Work Australia ordered an immediate end to all industrial action by the airline and by unions angry about pay and conditions.
All Qantas planes were grounded on Saturday, leaving nearly 70,000 passengers stranded in 22 countries, and the airline had been threatening to lock out all employees from tonight.
But the industrial umpire's ruling means all parties now have 21 days to negotiate a settlement to the dispute.
Mr Katter says Qantas will be foreign-owned if Mr Joyce gets his way, and says he will meet with union leaders later today to warn them not to fall into the airline's "trap".
"I would call upon the [Qantas] board, if there is anyone left there with any sense of brains, that they should have him dismissed immediately before we move into the Ansett-type situation," Mr Katter said.
Mr Katter says he believes Mr Joyce is preparing to sack thousands of workers and ship their jobs overseas where labour is cheap.
But David Goodwin from Queensland's Chamber of Commerce and Industry disagrees with Mr Katter.
He says Mr Joyce was forced to make a "desperate decision" to shut the airline down to bring an end to the damaging industrial action by unions.
"They have taken the only action that is going to bring it to a swift end," he said.
"Now that everybody is talking about it and now that everybody is focused I think that Alan Joyce has found himself in the fire, but no doubt he has the support of his board and shareholders.
"Katter's response bears no reality from the perspective of the employer and many of these businesses that do face union action day in, day out, week in, week out.
"I think it shows very little perspective just how hard these airlines are doing it with this sort of strike action floating around."

Go for it 'Mad Bob' !! You get my vote. Maybe you can team up with Nick ?

[rh200]

This debacle has highlighted the need for the government to regulate the minimum requirements that Qantas must always provide in regards to availability of aircraft to ensure continuity of travel for the Australian public.

The reality of what will happen is Jetstar and Virgin will grow off the back of what happend. As Qantas proper gets smaller and its fate is less inclined to cause a meltdown then the imputes to save it will purely be emotional. At that point they will make a half assed attempt to save it, but it will be to late, they will take off all restraints and let the cards lay where they fall.

Western Governments are not in the airline industry any more and nationalization would have far greater implications to the stockmarket than you would like. It is not going to happen, far bigger unions and industry's have been moaning about offshoring for years, and see where that has got them.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

The Government could easily fix this, any route that is not flown by a VH red tail, could be opened up to competition (deregulated).

I bet the VH registered red tails with QANTAS flight, QANTAS Pilots would be re-instated.

Would stop good routes being gifted to the B scalers.

Perhaps if Mad Bob went his way, the orange cancer would be castrated, right along with you know who.

If QANTAS goes tits up, who owns onestar, the Qlink, Network ?, it will all sink.

[airtags]

Joyce's hijack as I heard it called was clearly engineered by Clifford - it places Joyce and those mamangers who had the heads up (like those Syd mgrs) positioned in OS ports last Wed & Thursday) in a position that they will NEVER regain and cred or have any hope of being trusted.

That said; it is essential that the focus during the next 21 days remains on proving that Q had no intention of entering into fair bargaining - for this to be effective however there is no room for idiots doing stupid things - whoever you work beside make sure that they understand that one numbat doing something stupid actually gives Joyce the cred he will desperately be seeking.

For Pilots (& CC for that matter) Joyce's reliance on the fatigue factor is a mighty leg up and something that needs to be strategically embraced - esp with proposed CAO 48 amends and more importantly, the fatigue risk claim actually is a sword that should be carefully and responsibly used to put a fence around and challenge the JQ/JetConnect/Chinese Red Rooster work/roster practices. This, if played well, is a powerful weapon.

Suggest we also start a thread/section on the AIPA or save Qantas website to help those in the media that are a little slow and for those poor institutional investors that have their heads so far up a red rats bum that they had choice but to vote up the motions at the AGM.

The site should list on one side 'great Q stuff ups' and the $ lost.
On the other side of the page how it could have been avoided/fixed and the $ saved - upload a photo to back it up or take a pic of the tech log for the ever growing list of things that don't get done.

Also before you write your next post here - write to the pollies, regulators and ask:
1. Why the IASC has been giving Q/JQ 'alliances' a green light to back door Australian bi-laterals through the Q Group's deceptive route approvals?

2. Write to the ASIC and as a shareholder seek the regulator to inititate an investigation to the misleading and deceptive conduct of the Company in statements made to the AGM & the ASX on 28 October, particularly Mr Joyce and Mr Strambi (Strambi holds the AOC) withheld critical information.

3. Write to the aviation regulators requesting details of they how they intend to protect the Australian public from those fatigue factors that Mr Joyce so passionately claimed was a huge safety risk?

4. and...how the regulators propose to ensure the safety of the QF offshore alliances that are already backdooring Australian routes?

5. CASA and the ATSB need to be asked to review Strambi's claim that a risk assesment in mid Oct (allegedly) was adverse and presented to Joyce & Co. Specifically, the regulators need to investigate and advise why was that risk not acted upon and mitigators enacted as prescribed in the Q SMS? According to Joyce's claim the risk was potentially 'life threatening' therefore requiring immediate action. Is Mr Strambi therefore a suitable person to hold the AOC's given the facts presented to FWA suggest that he failed to act as a responsible person in respect of the AOC & SMS obligations? (lets face it if it was GA they'd be alll over the hanger by now)

6. The various state WorkCover Authorities also need to be asked to investigate item 5 above. If Q's statements in this regard as presented to FWA last night are true - then both Joyce, Strambi and those with knowledge of such are liable for prosecution under the provisions of the state acts.

There are so many areas where Q has just taken the view of "stuff the Govt" - Joyce is not seen as the public saviour - he is seen as being un-Australian and deceptive.

In the most professional way possible we all need to make sure that every Q employee stands proud, remains 110% professional - and engages with the public. A simple smile or hello walking through the terminal - a simple "thanks for your support" in casual conversations are also musts.

We also must keep those few nutters amongst us on a short lead and like never before stay united.

My view anyway

AT

[blurter8]

Over the weekend, during the barrage of comments i listened to, some far more bizarre than others, 2 statements i will remember, as i believe firmly they are weighted in sensibility
1. By Dick Smith (who would have thought)
"How can Qantas compete with Govt sponsored/owned Airlines with total right of entry which is not reciprocated. It is ridiculous and will never be anywhere near a level playing ground"
2. By Webber (cant remember his first name.) " Qantas competitors are mainly Govt owned entities. They do not look to there National carrier to be solely a profit making business on its own, quite the contrary, these Countries look to the Airline to be a conduit to bring passengers to their country to promote investment in their Country as a whole and everyone in that Country prospers to some extent"
The Management that we at Qantas have been subjected to has been toxic to say the least. It has now reached DDT levels of toxicity. i can not remember one engagement survey that was within cooeeeee of the word positive in regard to our Management. We have been mismanaged to within a whisker of total collapse on to many occasions. Anyone who believes that from today we will, as a workforce, go off to work with a spring in our step and a smile on our dial are living in that little place Joyce spoke of recently, cloud cuckoo!!
The Govt has to move NOW to begin the steps to acquire Qantas International. Go back and address the complete pharrrk ups of the past 7 to 8 years and fix them. Get us the 777,s that we should have had years ago. Remove any contact with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 of the current Management team, no forget that, piss them all off. I for one cannot work in an environment even coming close to one of trust and respect with these complete clowns at the helm.
Sensibility has been so rare during the last 7 or so years that i honestly am amazed i can still spell the word.
Senator X also needs to kick off a thorough,deep inquest into the Managerial history and decisions made by them going back at least 7 years and bring the absolute self serving, self indulged, intelligence devoid bafoons that have been in control, and i use that word so so loosely, to task.
The end... it was very close to the end indeed and i am still not so sure we are out of the woods by a longgggg stretch.

[1a sound asleep]

The Govt has to move NOW to begin the steps to acquire Qantas International.

I think 99% of Australians agree. According to JOyce its a basket case so they can just hand it over.