MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.

[The The]

If QANTAS goes tits up, who owns onestar, the Qlink, Network ?, it will all sink.

The group won't go, just the QANTAS part. Joyce doesn't want death by a thousand cuts, he wants it in under 10. Just slow enough to ensure the growth of Jetstar, QASIA to replace Qantas. Qlink becomes Jlink overnight.

Why do you think Jetstar has an order in for 110 Airbus narrowbody's - they are to replace Qantas.

[DJ737]

If QF intl is a basket case, why would the govt want it?

Just jettison any routes longer than 8 hrs and become a great regional & domestic airline.

There are better airlines to fly you to Europe/North America etc 82% of people flying out of Australia say so.

[quadradar]

:{

The last QF flight I travelled on was a 707 ( ! ) crewed by civil and military crew (latter under training) on a flight out of Air base Butterworth, Malaysia back to Australia in 1978.

While I no longer reside in Australia I have travelled to Australia several times since with Pac Blue and Air New Zealand .... why .... because I no longer had faith in the organisation from top to bottom .... be that management - out sourcing of maintenance - crew morale.

Branson engages with his Virgin employees .... Fyfe engages with his Kiwi employees .... it is reflected with the great attitude of staff in front office (cabin / check in) or Engine Room (Cockpit) ....

I will not fly Qantas / Jet Star.

You had a great airline ....

I really feel it is over ....

This is a very sad outcome.

Sincere condolences to all the great guys and girls who are affected by the death throes of this once Superb Iconic Airline.

I always felt safe flying with QF in the earlier days .... with good reason .... excellence in training right through all the aspects of the airline from the workshop up.

[peuce]

The cost, Mr Journalist, is the knowledge that Australian workers, in any significant corporation, no longer have any right to negotiate their terms and conditions.

At the first sign of industrial action, the corporation need only shut the joint down and then run to the Government and cry "the economy!", "the economy!"

[ejectx3]

Sadly I can only give 110% as it is in my nature to do so. I think as pilots our professionalism is often our Achilles heel.

[NIGELINOZ]

This one's for Alan Joyce who is obviously Leigh Clifford's 'Puppet on a string'
Sandie Shaw - Puppet On A String (1967) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrs8CgpH980)
Don't give up the fight guys-if you do Qantas is dead in the water.
Sincerely
N'oz
(SLF)

[Super Cecil]

Tony Windsor on the radio this morning saying there will be much pressure and scrutiny on Joyce in the coming days.

[The Voice]

someone was chasing the link for the decision, which is here [2011] FWAFB 7444 (http://www.fwa.gov.au/decisionssigned/html/2011fwafb7444.htm) and then the order, which is here PR516214 (http://www.fwa.gov.au/awardsandorders/html/pr516214.htm)

[rh200]

Joyce is a patsy for the ones above who make the decisions. His willingness to be front man and possibly take the fall for this will do nothing but endear him to the larger corporate world (taking it for the team!).

Yes he may take a short term hit, worse case scenario out of action for a year or two, then whalla back into the fold somewhere as the guy who took on the unions. That's just the way it is.

[Conductor]

How about the human cost. I have been stuck away from home, notified of being locked out, then now told I will go back to work and have lost all rights to bargain. I have been away from the immediate support of my family and feel like I have been violated. My wife is in tears. The CEO's reasoning for grounding the airline was due to a safety risk due to a shock being delivered to the pilots. However I am now expected to go flying and apparently that shock and safety risk has now disappeared. I am ashamed of the CEO and the entire board.

[Howard Hughes]

I don't think he realises (or cares) how far and wide the hurt has spread.:rolleyes:

[airsupport]

Go for it 'Mad Bob' !! You get my vote. Maybe you can team up with Nick ?

Yes, both of them great straight talking honest Aussies. :ok:

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

I can't vote for Labour, Can't vote for the Libs, hate the greens. Who remains, ding, ding, ding we might have a winner. If I stay in this country long enough to vote at the next election. Australia is a disgrace.

[MACH082]

Burn that fuel.

Look for headwinds, carry as much as you can justify, take the full star and the ILS every time......

Taxi at a walking pace riding the brakes with power. Don't heat 'Em up too much. Might have to return to the stand :D

Descend early and use that level segment to slow her right up. Burners on.

Burn that fuel

In CTAFs join upwind instead of base or final in the interests of safety.

Burn that fuel

Every litre you burn extra is a little less in the bank to fight you, and a little less in the boards bonus.

Burn that fuel

Burn that fuel

Burn that fuel :E

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

I will pay very close attention to the Save/Loss figures on the Flight Plan, and order fuel accordingly. Exceptionally in the west, and Canberra :D

[Johnny_56]

Qantas shares up 5%...

Virgin up about 7%

Not everyone seems to think what happened was the worst thing ever.

[aseanaero]

Working to rule is meeting the bare minimum requirements of your employment contract, nothing more.


Sounds like a good recipe for the 'Worlds Safest Airline' , have an accident or a string of incidents over the next few months and see what happens to Qantas

[Datum]

Can someone explain to me why CASA needs to 'sign off' on the Qantas Risk Management Plan regarding the resumption of flying operations.

Qantas took the decision to ground flying ops, therefore they should facilitate and risk management the resumption.

If CASA grounded the airline, then CASA should risk manage and decide on flying ops.

This is blantant avoidance of accountability on the part of Qantas Management.

CASA should provide comment abd advice - however, they should not be carrying the can. If Clifford and Joyce think they have all the answers then they can carry the risk.

When will the Government of Australia stand up!

[aseanaero]

Burn that fuel.

Look for headwinds, carry as much as you can justify, take the full star and the ILS every time......

Taxi at a walking pace riding the brakes with power. Don't heat 'Em up too much. Might have to return to the stand

Descend early and use that level segment to slow her right up. Burners on.

Burn that fuel

In CTAFs join upwind instead of base or final in the interests of safety.

Burn that fuel

Every litre you burn extra is a little less in the bank to fight you, and a little less in the boards bonus.

Burn that fuel

Burn that fuel

Burn that fue

While you play these little games my kids are sitting in the back , this is where this sort of **** has to stop , both sides forget about the SLF , YOUR CUSTOMERS

Post like this show the thinking that in an attempt to get revenge on management, pilots and staff are once again not even thinking inconvenience for your passengers let alone the additional risk of considering flying non standard flight profiles

What are you people thinking ? You want to disenfranchise all your loyal customers who have stuck with you this far ?

Seriously Mach082 , do you think that sort of behaviour is acceptable for a professional pilot ? Maybe you should ground yourself because your mind isn't thinking rationally

I actually do give a SH*T about what's going on , this whole situation is wrong but QANTAS still needs to maintain it's professionalism , it is what you have been selling to the World , the reason why jobs need to be kept in Australia , keep squeezing your customers in your efforts to hurt management and the bad guys have already won.





.

[unionist1974]

Where are the great Union leaders? licking their wounds ? . How do they intend to recover from this defeat? and to those delusional posters depending on pollies to come to the rescue , my condolences . A truly great disasterous campaign run by the media tarts in these unions . Anyway Tony is happy he will be the NP of the ALP , thanks to his loyal supporters and those silly enough to believe him.

[Massey058]

Seriously Mach082 , do you think that sort of behaviour is acceptable for a professional pilot ? Maybe you should ground yourself because your mind isn't thinking rationally

You have a point but you must be able to see how even a professional pilot would come to make those statements in these circumstances.

I am amazed that people who have a choice still fly with Qantas. I know that is not fair on the good people that remain there in their 000's but the entity is a shell of it's former excellence.

The true unprofessionalism lies in the actions of successive managements who have pursued a strategy that has lead to the systematic degradation of the full-service international carrier. The fleet, network, service and engineering capability etc have all been sacrificed and yet there is a market there. I know I am not the only person who choses another airline over Qantas even if it means a less direct or more expensive routing - that is a sad indictment and something Mr Joyce does not wish to rectify.

I truly feel for all the fine people who are tied up in this mess.

[Super Cecil]

There is most certainly a plan to deal with this kind of threat. Its easy for posters like Mach082 to be discovered when the right authority is sought from the right people.

Threats? Retribution?

[King William III]

Newpiper spewed out:
All of the QF levy paying union members of the Baggage, engineers and Pilots union must be asking whether they are getting value for money from the union because if these unions did not anticipate such a response from Qantas which could have meant their members go without pay for a long period of time, members ought to be ringing their union leaders asking why not! What are the unions paying their legal teams for??

What in God's name are you babbling on about ? :ugh:

Please, at least go and learn punctuation and grammar before jumping on here and using Daddy's laptop.

Go play with your Duplo!

[MACH082]

The pax will not be inconvenienced one bit.

You can achieve the same block times burning extra fuel.

The only ones hurting will be Joyce and co and their faulty calculator.

Why do you think they have become so concerned with fuel uploads, cruise power settings and other operational efficiencies? They know the Pilot can hurt them. You can't increase cruise power to regain schedule if the schedule is outside of a ten minute window. Effectively they are saying you must fly at their chosen level, at their chosen power setting with their fuel upload.

Professional Pilots? Only returning the professionalism extended to them.

Kamikazees I believe after all.

Newpiper, we don't need to know who you are. We already know. A Richard Cranium :ok:

I'm no way endorsing the above, I don't work for Qantas, I'm not involved with AIPA or any of the other unions in dispute.

I'm venting my frustrations for my many mates at Qantas and thanking the heavens my management are like mother teresa in comparison. And we still have our complaints.

[OzSync]

MACH082 you are displaying the mentality of a toddler and are viewing the world from about the same perspective.

Make Qantas even less productive with your childish "burn fuel" plans?

I suggest you hop in your car and go driving whilst "riding the brakes with power". Then you can do yourself financial damage without bothering the rest of us.

[SimonBl]

Time for a bit of light relief: ABC Radio Perth (720) have announced that they'll be chatting to Alan Joyce after the 10am news. No, not THAT AJ, the one who's been getting all of the hate tweets :-)

[Slippery_Pete]

Funny you mention Woolies. I spent a fair bit of time in their employ, as a nightfiller and then later as a night manager while getting my CPL.

Woolworths has a very heavily unionised workforce. You'd be hard pushed to find a single employee among the rank and file in the stores that isn't a member of the SDA; the union organiser swings past during every induction to do his spiel, and most people sign up on the spot. Every couple of years when EBA time comes round, Woolies bargain in good faith with the unions, end up with a reasonably happy workforce that feels valued, and the company continue to make record profits.

AJ could learn many lessons in IR from Woolies.
Let's consider this problem with the precedent Gillard & FWA have set last night.

1. Woolies employees next EBA try to get reasonable and fair T&Cs
2. Woolies management pretends (but actually refuses) to negotiate in good faith
3. Woolies employees jump through all the hoops at FWA to introduce a PROTECTED industrial campaign with minimal disruption possible
4. Woolies management will just go f**k you, we're shutting down temporarily, watch this
5. Gillard and FWA **** their pants and roll over because of damage to the economy
6. Woolies employees get f**ked over in arbitration.

Essentially, the precedent set last night by FWA allows any big business to circumvent the Fair Work Act.

Gillard is an absolute disgrace to Australia, let alone the moral standings expected of a LABOUR leader. She rode KRudd's (the smartest leader we've had) coat tails, and stabbed him in the back to get her fat *rse in the top job... AND HAS ACHIEVED NOTHING.

I'm with Fatguyinalittlecoat... Julia is a disgrace to the nation, Abbott is a muppet, the greens are unrealistic, who the hell do we vote for? Suddenly Pauline kicking leprachauns out of "Ostraylia" doesn't seem so bad afterall.

[airtags]

Mach 082 - if you want to be 'productive' see post 787 of this thread (ironic number eh!)

As for the B.S. you proffer I would be the first one to back the company kicking your ar*se for being unsafe and stupid (I note that the two are usually interdependent.)

It's numbat statements like those posted by you that will give Joyce the golden excuse he is so desperate for.

Jeez - time to go to work .....how does that go again????

AT

[amos2]

Well, I hate to say I told you so...

...so, I'll tell you something else...

...sometime next year Gudice will join Qantas in a senior consultancy role!



By the way, my wife thinks you're a bunch of pussies, especially the pilots!

[Jabawocky]

The CEO's reasoning for grounding the airline was due to a safety risk due to a shock being delivered to the pilots.

What shock being delivered to the pilots? What was the shock going to be?:confused:

If he did not ground the planes, there was no shock to deal with.

This is a disgrace from Juliar to the board of Qantas.

If Canada was not so cold I would move there.

[aseanaero]

Mach082 ”The pax will not be inconvenienced one bit”

You suggest flying into headwinds , that normally adds to flight time causing delays therefore incovenience.

Even if you were to fly your 'high fuel burn profile' perfectly with no delay you have just eroded the safety margin in the flight by carrying more fuel resulting in greater take off distance and mmore stress on the aircraft and engines while the primary goal of this flight is to be an economic weapon rather than a safe , efficient and comfortable flight for the pax who are customers trying to support you.

Seriously , just think about what you said logically , there is an effect

[TIMA9X]

Keep flying Qantas, it will be bigger and better than ever.Providing you don't want to fly to London all the way on Q via BKK or HKG.


As the day progresses it appears Alan Joyce is on the nose with the public, he is attracting scathing comments from all over the country with his now well documented action last Saturday, Qantas management didn't give a stuff about it's customers, no warning in its preplanned action. .

FWA is a joke, it sided with the company, so why have FWA at all? It is a dud piece of industrial relations feeding more lawyers who didn't accept their own decision to allow the unions the right to legal action.. If Qantas didn't have strong unions then today we would see a lot less Australians working for Q....

I doubt the Australian public are falling for what you preach NP Q customers have been silently voting with their feet for a few years now due to poor management decisions .....what Joyce has demonstrated since the AGM, it's all about his pay packet and his pals on the board led by LC and his ego.

NP, Why do guys like you want to come on here and wind everyone up... why not go and gloat with the mainstream media comment sections....?

Having said that, I do agree with you on.

Don't worry about fools like Mach082 planning to take revenge out on QF which would also impact on customers.

yep, spot on, that's not the way to fix things...

[Ejector]

Is it true the CEO said that he was worried about pilots getting high blood pressure and in the name of safety it is best they are not flying during this? :mad:

[Howard Hughes]

Does he think their blood pressure has come down any?:rolleyes:

[TIMA9X]

iqeyuVoGN_0


Bloody turncoat, he didn't want to get involved, much, now he spins it like the government did it....

love the question 1.03 "should it be illegal.......

[obira]

Have just read the decision here [2011] FWAFB 7444 (http://www.fwa.gov.au/decisionssigned/html/2011fwafb7444.htm)


[10] It is unlikely that the protected industrial action taken by the three unions, even taken together, is threatening to cause significant damage to the tourism and air transport industries. The response industrial action of which Qantas has given notice, if taken, threatens to cause significant damage to the tourism and air transport industries and indirectly to industry generally because of the effect on consumers of air passenger and cargo services. The Qantas evidence was that the cost to it alone is $20 million per day.
[11] We find that the requirements of s.424(1) have been made out with respect to the action of which Qantas has given notice in relation to the three proposed enterprise agreements. In the circumstances we are required to make an order either terminating or suspending the protected action.
So it was only Qantas's protected industrial action which met the requirements of s 424(1). Why then was the protected industrial action by the unions, which FWA found did not meet the requirements of the section, also terminated?

Any legal minds able to provide a judicial decision in relation to this?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thanks for the link 'Voice'.....

On the ball, and to the point - as usual!

Cheers:ok:

[Bankstown Boy]

Widespread (unconfirmed - hey it's a rumor network) that CASA hasn't read the script and won't release QF until 3pm TUESDAY!!

[ACT Crusader]

Have just read the decision here [2011] FWAFB 7444 (http://www.fwa.gov.au/decisionssigned/html/2011fwafb7444.htm)



[10] It is unlikely that the protected industrial action taken by the three unions, even taken together, is threatening to cause significant damage to the tourism and air transport industries. The response industrial action of which Qantas has given notice, if taken, threatens to cause significant damage to the tourism and air transport industries and indirectly to industry generally because of the effect on consumers of air passenger and cargo services. The Qantas evidence was that the cost to it alone is $20 million per day.
[11] We find that the requirements of s.424(1) have been made out with respect to the action of which Qantas has given notice in relation to the three proposed enterprise agreements. In the circumstances we are required to make an order either terminating or suspending the protected action.
So it was only Qantas's protected industrial action which met the requirements of s 424(1). Why then was the protected industrial action by the unions, which FWA found did not meet the requirements of the section, also terminated?

Any legal minds able to provide a judicial decision in relation to this?


There is case law that terminating can be done for all action.

[skybed]

this strategy was in line with the revised schedules coming in april. A333 from mel to hkg, bkk terminators etc. they might have an excuse now to bring some of the flying changes forward as punters will vote with their feet and abandon qf. aj and the board then can blame the unions on losing the business.:ugh:

[Datum]

See my post #806.

Seems possible that CASA has the balls that most in government did not!

I would not be endorsing a Qantas conceived risk management plan until I was absolutely sure all identified risks had been mitigated as best as possible.

That assessment may take some time

[Artificial Horizon]

Not true, Qantas signed off by CASA to resume at 15:00 today (sydney time).

[obira]

Thanks ACT Crusader,

Can you point me towards any particular case(s)? It would be interesting to see how far up the hierarchy of courts this point has been considered.

[The The]

Exclusion from flight:

A person shall be denied boarding if they:
. conduct themselves in an improper manner
. are apparently of unsound mind
. are likely to constitute an annoyance to other passengers or crew.....

The final decision to offload passengers rests with the Pilot In Command

:ok::ok::ok:

[1a sound asleep]

Prediction - Alan Joyce will go. He hasn't realised it but he has been used by the board to do their dirty work. Qantas is on the nose because of Alan Joyce. Whilst Joyce smells so does Qantas. The public dont see the boards face, just the voice and face of Joyce - and the voice and face of Qantas is Alan Joyce.

http://www.timescontent.com/tss/photos/preview/205952/Alan%20Joyce.jpg


The public see Joyce as a nasty arrogant egocentric maniac and that's how they see Qantas. For that reason he will go. Qantas cannot survive with a dirty face.

Qantas will need/get a fresh new inspiring leader to take Qantas forward from 2011. The board will pay Joyce out and justify the cost the same way they justified the cost of the grounding. .... Joyce will last 12 months max. You watch

[Slippery_Pete]

There is case law that terminating can be done for all action.
Can you clarify the above Crusader... CAN be done, or MUST be done for all action?

In the case of the former, there is absolutely no reason for the three unions' action to be terminated (especially the pilots).

[stewser89]

Newpiper are you gloating?

Nobody will win from this at QANTAS

[dreamjob]

Parliament Question Time is interesting.

Something to note from Albanese:

According to AJ, the airline was grounded solely due to the suspension of the AOC due safety concerns (from stress?).

What happened to grounding the fleet because of the industrial action, eh AJ?

[Short_Circuit]

According to AJ, the airline was grounded solely due to the suspension of the AOC due safety concerns (from stress?).
I would suggest that all are more stressed NOW than on Friday / Saturday. :hmm:

[TIMA9X]

E9gmh5nDkvE

Ok, now some time has passed by since the FWA announcement, I believe it is a good time to look at the live announcements again, I feel that we all have been hoodwinked... I trust some legal eagles on here may see something that isn't quite right.... before the media start editing stuff out for tonight's stories...

will post some more as the day progresses....

.

[buttmonkey1]

from question time,
from transport minister albanese, casa at no time recommended any
grounds for 'grounding the fleet'.

[SimonBl]

From what I'm seeing, CASA have yet to have 'signed off'. See below from CASA tweets:

CASABriefing CASA
Not yet. Not too far away
25 minutes ago

CASABriefing CASA
Work still underway on reviewing Qantas safety case for resumption of flights. Working as quickly as possible.
1 hour ago

CASABriefing CASA
CASA now working on Qantas safety case for resumption of flights. Will be completed as quickly as possible, while ensuring safety.
4 hours ago

[Jabawocky]

So what was the cause of this stress? If the grounding was for that, they had a cure but needed a problem.

It does not make sense.

[Howard Hughes]

You said it Jabba, stress would be considerably higher post this whole sorry scenario.:uhoh:

[Warm Ballast]

... verballing the PM & a Minister is not a good look is it .... if he twisted the truth there what else has he twisted along the way?

ABC 1525hrs
Transport Minister Anthony Albanese has angrily contradicted claims by Qantas boss Alan Joyce that he told the Federal Government "on multiple occasions" that he might ground the airline's fleet.

Fair Work Australia (FWA) ordered an end to industrial action in the early hours of this morning, telling Qantas to get its aircraft back into the sky and drop its plans to lock out its workforce.

Fronting a news conference in Sydney this morning, Mr Joyce said grounding the fleet "was not a surprise to anybody".

"We have been talking about it for weeks, months about the pain this was causing Qantas," Mr Joyce said.

But at a press conference this afternoon, a visibly annoyed Mr Albanese described three meetings he had convened with Mr Joyce, union boss Tony Sheldon and himself, where "at no stage" did Mr Joyce say Qantas would initiate a lockout and grounding.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard said she did not accept that Qantas's only choice on Saturday was "to take the extreme action" of grounding all planes and "leaving tens of thousands of passengers stranded".

She also denied newspaper reports that Mr Joyce had attempted to contact her before grounding aircraft.

"That is untrue and Mr Joyce has confirmed today that that is untrue," she told a press conference.

Mr Albanese went through a detailed timeline of telephone calls between himself and Qantas in which he rang Mr Joyce three times on Saturday after one of his staff had been alerted of the impending action.

He said it was only when Mr Joyce finally rang back that he got an indication the Qantas fleet would be grounded.

"That was the first occasion in which Mr Joyce or anyone else from Qantas had ever raised the issue of a lockout," Mr Albanese told reporters.

[Race Bannon]

A precedent has now been set.
Whenever Qantas has difficulties with negotiations with any of its 16 unions it will call a lockout.This will in effect end all PIA for all unions at Qantas.
The Fair work act appears to work well......for Qantas.
As a qantas employee many will now have to make a decision :Stay and watch your Tand Cs disappear or go before the inevitable happens .
The staff travel advantages for the Red Q may something to consider and have incorporated into Qantas EBAs

[jportzer]

Okay, so CASA has now approved the resumption of service: http://twitter.com/#!/CASABriefing (http://twitter.com/#%21/CASABriefing)
Betcha there are some angry punters at the airport who thought they were resuming quite a bit earlier. I wonder how many domestic flights they actually will get off in what's left of the day?

[Torres]

I don't agree Race.

The grounding was a one off event: I suspect Joyce and the Qantas Board no longer have friends any in Canberra. The Government and FWA reaction may be very different if Qantas try that caper again.

I don't think the game has even reached half time. Events in coming weeks could be very interesting. As there is little honour or honesty in that Board room, I would not be surprised if Joyce is a casualty of his own folly in the fullness of time.

[Long Bay Mauler]

Here is a great article by Stuart Washington. It shows the management for being the Un-Australian people they are.

Un-Australian? The flying roo wants to be (http://www.watoday.com.au/business/unaustralian-the-flying-roo-wants-to-be-20111030-1mqhn.html)

[tmadam]

If it was unsafe / too stressful to take off two days before an impending lockout, what about landing flights that were in the air when the grounding was announced? Were those on board at that time endangered?

[waren9]

The Government and FWA reaction may be very different if Qantas try that caper again.

Julia was at great pains to point out that she was acting to defend the national interest ie the economy and the tourism industry.

Friends in Canberra or not, if true she would be forced to act the same way again if QF tries the lock out game.

Ergo there is no longer any such thing as protected PIA for any QF employee ever again. And you can extend that logic to all employees working for any major corporate that would hurt the economy if it suddenly stopped trading.

[jportzer]

If it was unsafe / too stressful to take off two days before an impending lockout, what about landing flights that were in the air when the grounding was announced? Were those on board at that time endangered?
Presumably, the crew on board would not know about it. Management would have been careful not to announce it via ACARS or official communication, right? Do pilots have access to other communication networks prior to landing?

--SLF

[aussie027]

Some Uni IR professor was just on ABC midday news saying that Qantas played the game to the hilt and as others on here mentioned literally forced the hand of Govt to intervene thru FWA and they then had no choice but to decide on termination of PIA as opposed to a temporary suspension.
No agreement has been reached in past (how many months??) between the company and unions given the managements and boards decision to destroy the remains of the company and set up offshore subsidiaries, offshore operations etc so what are the odds they will come to an agreeable compromise in the next 3 weeks???
I’m thinking Zero basically since the arrogant pricks think they have won and will continue to destroy the company with their "Masters of the Aviation Universe Plan".

That means the FWA will forcibly impose a resolution that neither side will likely be happy with given they will/may have to show some " balance " in their decisions to avoid it looking like a totally biased entity.
Or is it already???:uhoh::uhoh:

FWA approved the past PIA based on the evidence they already heard months ago and now because Qantas pulled this one up brinksmanship move and the national economy will be affected by a prolonged shutdown that makes all the difference so that means all our past hearings and decisions were basically meaningless?? That’s right isn’t it??.

ANOTHER POSSIBILITY, if we think outside the box :E:E:E--

Qantas and the govt are relying now on 1 thing only; BOTH sides agreeing to the FWA process.
What happens if they DO NOT AGREE TO ABIDE BY IT????

If after 21 days no agreement is reached and FWA is forced to come up with a forced agreement that may or may not be a "Fair" compromise, IF ALL the unions involved decide to take REAL Industrial Action and go on strike, a REAL strike, non of this PIA politically correct nonsense.
Then what happens???
Are the Govt and the company going to sit back and watch Qantas totally go under??? NO……
Who gets forced to back down then??

They cannot fire everybody or take everyone and every union to court etc can they???
That won’t solve anything if no one is at work then no flying and no more airline.

That is EXACTLY what Joyce just did, NO WORKERS ARE ALLOWED TO WORK SO I WILL GROUND THE ENTIRE FLEET AND TO HELL WITH THE $20-30MILLION A DAY IT’S COSTING THE COMPANY LET ALONE THE NATIONAL ECONOMY!! SCREW YOU ALL.
The unions could force the Govt to change the Qantas sales act to prevent this setting up offshore companies etc whilst destroying the Australian company, and then intervene to have the board and all upper management removed and get in a group who can do to Qantas what Fyfe and his team did with ANZ in the past 10 yrs.
If it can be done to ANZ it certainly can be done with Qantas!!!

They just “intervened” now to force FWA to take action, whether it was legal or not, to give the company what it wanted so they can do it again to make the situation “Right”.

The Govt gets around its own laws when it suits them for whatever reason/excuse they want to give, national interest, national security etc.

I LIKE SOOOOO MANY OTHERS AM SICK TO DEATH AND FED UP WITH SEEING GOVT AND GREEDY CORPORATIONS SCREW OVER THE COUNTRY AND ITS PEOPLE UNDER SOME BS TOTALLY MISGUIDED GUISE OF “DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THE PEOPLE/WORKERS/NATIONAL INTEREST” WHEN THE ONLY DAMN INTEREST BEING SERVED IS THEIR OWN!!!

RANT OVER ….. SWITCHES OFF. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Sarcs]

So how many pilots are now going to call in 'sick due workplace relations stress'?:= Then over time that 'WRS' becomes 'PTSD' and so on....Psychiatrists and Psychologists will be booked out for months!:ok:

Torres totally agree with your assessment, I think this is just the start! Do you think DB (may he RIP) would have had the balls to do a Joyce?:D

[DJ737]

Are the Govt and the company going to sit back and watch Qantas totally go under??? NO……


Wanna bet?

QANTAS, Virgin Aust & the Govt. have 21 days to get all the paperwork sorted for overseas carriers to come out and operate domestic services.

Next time everyone will be ready for a QF shutdown, this one took most people by surprise, the next one won't. :ok:

[gobbledock]

The interview this morning on the Today Show with the 'Minister for Bad Teeth' was hilarious! Has he had a stroke or was he drunk?? An inarticulate buffoon who can't even speak English! When Karl asked the question as to 'what regulatory work was required by CASA to get QF back in the air' the Minister kept dribbling about schedules. WTF??? A totally inept monkey boy. It was an absolute popcorn moment, very entertaining and embarressing. But not as embarressing as watching the Carbon Queen live at SPROGM in Perth, walking like a man with her Hair Dresser in tow !! F#ck me this country has taken a dive towards the bottom of the sewer pit.

Who would have thought that our Nation and national icon would be held to ransom by a potato farmer from cloud cuckoo land?
One thing is for certain wee man, Australians know how to fight outside the rule set, you can work that one out for yourself, but if it is low blows and a dirty war you want then that is what you will get, I think you have understimated what you perceive to be your enemy.
Tick tock tick tock.

And of course CASA signed off QF ASAP. What a surprise, NOT. They can't do ANYTHING without it taking months and/or years but they can get the Rat back in the air after a handful of hours?? Spare me.
However, I would like to be a fly on the wall at Fort Fumble, I imagine that all this farcicle behaviour would have the Skull screaming at the top of his voice!! Somebody better get the angry man an extra case of stoogies !

[Jabawocky]

Can somebody tell me what stress the pilots and engineers were suffering from when they had no idea of this snap shutdown?

Surely it was no different to a week ago?

Anyone?

I was on the last plane out of Sydney.....sounds like a song, to Brisbane so was I so much at risk? I doubt it :ugh:

[SimonBl]

You may say that CASA signed off ASAP, but they're obviously getting some stick via T W I T T E R (stupid censorship):

CASABriefing CASA
We only got Qantas plan at 10:30 am.
6 minutes ago

CASABriefing CASA
We have human factors people. All done carefully
6 minutes ago

CASABriefing CASA
Had to make sure safety was up to standard.
9 minutes ago

[teresa green]

Am stranded in LHR AND on staff travel, soooo it looks like a full fare on SQ. (At least in 89 I was only in CBR!) Oh well **** happens. Guys am so sorry that you have been insulted, abused, and degraded, by that little :mad: Joyce, am so sorry that the travelling public do not know the truth, the sad, slow destruction of such a great company and airline, but if it makes you feel any better I have told everybody stranded at LHR that I could speak to, the actual truth. I feel at least I could put in my own little protest on behalf of many of you. (Not all obviously). Oh well, we had them too. Good luck to you all, don't let the bastard get you down, people power guys, people power, they won back Libya, you can win back the company, and let QF go on to be the great company it was and can be again. Good luck to you all, fight back and don't let the turkey get you down. Viva le victory, QF staff.

[Capn Bloggs]

Next time everyone will be ready for a ... shutdown
So they will, DJ737. Be careful what you wish for.

[aussiepax]

SLF here. So if QANTAS international flights run at a huge loss, what private company can let that go on, without the cost cutting suggested by AJ ? How do wage increases and keeping the CC here and bringing maintenance back here then help turn a profit ? What is better, some job or no job ? Help me out here.

I appreciate the situation though. I have enough dough to be able to afford to fly QF when possible because I have met enough pilots and LAMEs. The other punters have voted with their wallets.

[SimonBl]

aussiepax - The operative word you used ws 'if'.

On a different note, a great (in my opinion) article here:

Tie me bloody Kangaroo down, Joyce | Article | The Punch (http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/tie-me-bloody-kangaroo-down-joyce/)

[breakfastburrito]

So if QANTAS international flights run at a huge loss
Stop right there - Alan Joyce has not been able to produce any clear unambiguous evidence that this is the case. A list of 69 questions regarding alleged transfer pricing between Jetstar & Qantas (to the detriment of Qantas) has been put by the unions, without answer. Senator Xenophon is seeking an inquiry on this very point.
Is Mr Joyce telling the truth? Very few would actually know. As we have seen with the "he said, she said" between Joyce/Albanese/Gillard about the grounding notification, the truth appears to be a very ambiguous.

This is first and foremost a propaganda war, and as the insiders on these boards know, the truth is the first casualty. Executives are well aware that creating a perception in the mind of the public is the most important thing, even if it later found to be an "untruth". The original "meme" sticks, as you have so perfectly demonstrated.

Does this change your perspective? Look beyond the spin to see the agenda.

[aseanaero]

I'm still curious to see if any laws have been broken on the preplanning of the grounding , there's seems to be some misinformation on this topic

[noip]

Some observations I've made.

On the two recent occasions Mr Joyce was directly asked if QF Mainline was subsidising J*, he refused to deny that this was the case. It was a yes/no answer but instead he talked of faking the moon landing and that the concept of Mainline paying J* bills etc was a crazy idea.

I am aware of GD doing the same thing at a Staff presentation a number of years ago.

There is an interesting post on a previous thread that deals with this use of language to not actually tell a lie, but to not give a straight answer.

So we still don't know.

N

[breakfastburrito]

Indeed noip:

Post #662 (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/467610-merged-qantas-grounded-effective-immediately-34.html#post6779359) is well worth a rehash

had a very interesting email from a colleague who is closely associated with Irish Business. It is his opinion that we are all labouring under our Australian beliefs and teachings. AJ isn’t attached to, or constrained by, these beliefs, teaching or our history. He is not an Australian and had been brought up in a Country where intellectual betrayal, or more specifically, mental reservation, casuistry and equivocation are accepted practice.

As he (my colleague) explained, the Collins Dictionary defines mental reservation as....’a tacit withholding of full assent or an unexpressed qualification made when one is taking an oath, making a statement, etc.’ Casuistry is ....’ reasoning that is specious, misleading, or oversubtle’.

The doctrines of mental reservation and casuistry were developed in the middle ages and are most often associated with the Jesuits. Mental reservation involves truths "expressed partly in speech and partly in the mind," relying upon the idea that God hears what is in one's mind while human beings hear only what one speaks. Verbally, “I did not steal any sheep on Tuesday”, mentally continuing, “it was on Wednesday”. It is a way of telling lies while being able to claim that you’ve been completely honest. For instance, the Primate of Ireland, Cardinal Desmond Connell, was comfortable with telling journalists that diocesan funds are not used to pay off the victims of clerical abusers, and he was very pleased with the subtlety of his language. He took great satisfaction in explaining that he didn’t say such funds were not used in the past, and if the journalists happened to be hoodwinked by his clever use of language, why that was just their own misfortune for not being as slippery smart as the Cardinal!

In our culture the statement, “Mr. Boyce is not in the office” typically means that Boyce is not taking phone calls right now (or, at least not this particular phone call). The caller understands (or should understand) that this is a polite way of saying, “Boyce is not available to you at this moment, even though he is actually in the office.” No one is really fooled by this expression using ambiguous language; we simply take it for what it is.

President Bill Clinton was educated at the foremost Jesuit training centre, Georgetown University. According to Clinton's biographer David Maraniss, the President owed his formidable skills as a criminal defendant to 'his training in casuistry at Georgetown University'. Casuistry is equivocal to rationalization, “to cause something to seem reasonable, to provide plausible but untrue reasons for conduct”. We all recall Bill Clinton, a former Rhodes Scholar, insist that he did not have sexual relations with that woman, when most guys in his position would be more than happy to think of what he got up to as just that!

Closer to home there was the Australian Spycatcher affair. Sir Robert Armstrong, now Baron Armstrong, produced the magnificent phrase “economical with the truth”. The world loved the patent absurdity of Armstrong’s phrase, and laughed at it, because we all understood what he meant. Economical with the truth! Every parent knows who took the sweets, or put a football through the window. It was Mister Nobody or maybe a kamikaze.

The question that should be asked of AJ and the QF spin doctors is, ‘Do you have a mental reservation in respect of your statement?’

[Amygdala1]

A reckless act of bastardry. Some people, whether by birthright or certificate,will never be Australians and Clifford and Joyce are two such people. The offense is that Clifford has an Order of Australia which is a blight on those who have truly earned one; this should be revoked. And during this selfish indulgence three true Australians are killed and others gravely wounded. Could you ever imagine these pair of ponces ever fighting for Australia? Why have they not been arrested yet? Threatening the government of the day, grounding the National carrier. Would anyone else not be on remand by dawn? The best they should hope for is to be someone’s special person in Pentridge. They just cannot get away with this; there must be some deterrence to Corporate Executives to not behave as Australian law and society demands.

[dr dre]

I'm still curious to see if any laws have been broken on the preplanning of the grounding , there's seems to be some misinformation on this topic


Securities fraud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securities_fraud)

[amos2]

As much as I hate to say it, being a fellow pilot and all that, I'm afraid you've been suckered and dudded!

As pilots we never were very good at this IR stuff, as past history proves!

You are no longer a "legacy airline", accept it and move on and think yourselves fortunate that you've got an excellent job that pays excellent money, a fantastic life style that provides you and your family with every thing you could want in life...so, why did you want more?

Stop being ungrateful ba.....ds and enjoy the fantastic job that you've got!!

The TWU and Tony Sheldon, the LAMEs and that goose Steve Purvenis, or whatever his name is, that purports to represent them, have never been your bedfellows, hate your guts if the truth be known, and think you're Prima Donas'...go and ask them!

Get some balls and do something or, preferably, shut up and appreciate what you've got!!

[noip]

Amos,

On the contrary, I think the game has only just reached half-time. The interviews I saw today of the PM and other ministers revealed they each had a white-hot fury raging in them over the actions of QF .

Plenty of twists and turns left to exhaust you on the ride.


N

[Amygdala1]

Last time I looked it was illegal to take un-notified industrial action and the guilty party would be fined! What of class actions by those who lost during this episode against Clifford, Joyce, Qantas - the salaries would dwindle pretty quickly. Nothing of this ...yet.

[GAFA]

From Reachout Australia's fact sheet regarding bullying in the workplace;

What dies bullying in the workplace look like?

1. Playing mind games, ganging up on you or other psychological harassment.
2. Intimidation (making you feel less important and undervalued).
3. Deliberately changing your work hours or schedule to make it difficult for you.
4. Deliberately holding back information you need for getting your work done properly


Has Qantas being doing points 1 and 2 to the employees involved in the dispute and then their actions on Saturday was basically points 1, 3 and 4 to every Qantas employee?

[Max Tow]

DJ737 (post 867),Rutan Around and others: On behalf of the 25% of Australian citizens who were born overseas (including me, much of the QF workforce and John Borghetti of DJ, as well as Alan Joyce), please cut the racism. It does our profession no good at all. I happen to believe that Joyce's policies are wrong. Where he was born is irrelevant and when inserted into the debate, plain counterproductive.

[TIMA9X]

5F2GhLE8bkQ

RP6TMxgcepI


5GixcocLgHc



It's all good
.

[amos2]

Oh Please!...give us a break!...we all know what you earn as Qantas pilots!

Please, don't cry poor! And don't give us this "job security" b...s..t!

Keg... your'e a smart kookie...start being smart again, Mate!!

Unless I've misjudged you, and I'm starting to think I have!

[obira]

Leigh Sales on 7.30 has just said that for the second day in a row Alan Joyce agreed to be interviewed on the programme and then cancelled with no explanation.

[rh200]

On the contrary, I think the game has only just reached half-time. The interviews I saw today of the PM and other ministers revealed they each had a white-hot fury raging in them over the actions of QF . We really need a piss yourself laughing icon.

Ohhh I'm scared, now we are really in it, Julia angry, I'm mean what are you saying. Normally a woman scorned would be something to be afraid of, but does she count? This has to have been one of the most useless governments that we have had, and has stuffed almost every thing they have touched, you really think Joyce gives a sh!t what they think. The government are as much pawns in this as everyone else.

Last time I looked it was illegal to take un-notified industrial action and the guilty party would be fined! What of class actions by those who lost during this episode against Clifford, Joyce, Qantas - the salaries would dwindle pretty quickly. Nothing of this ...yet. This should be another lesson, private enterprise generally has the best accountant, lawyers etc, the direct opposite is true for Government. For example and feel free to correct me on the technicalities as I can't be bothered looking into it. QANTAS was to lock every one out Monday arvo, plenty of notice. QANTAS pulled a shifty and used health and saftey as cause for immidiate grounding. Note they didn't lock you out until Monday. Shifty (smart lawyers at work there).
Unless one of their greasy lawyers had a bad day or someone got sloppy there is not a snowball chance in hell of laying one on them.

Leigh Sales on 7.30 has just said that for the second day in a row Alan Joyce agreed to be interviewed on the programme and then cancelled with no explanation.

Again most likely lawyers

[White and Fluffy]

Straight from the Qantas webpage; apprently they are pretty confident that they will come to a deal and there will be no more industrial action!


Last updated AEDT 5.40pm 31 October 2011.
Latest Flight Information

Qantas can confirm that all domestic and international services have resumed from mid-afternoon on Monday 31 October. We are deeply sorry for the inconvenience and stress our customers have faced over the past days and months. Industrial action is now over, you can again book Qantas flights with confidence.
Some flight delays, cancellations and disruptions are expected as we return our operations to normal and we advise you to visit Flight Status (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/flight-status/global/en) for up to the minute information on specific flights. As always, safety remains our first priority.
We apologise for any inconvenience that this industrial action has caused and we thank you for your understanding and continued support.

[King William III]

TIMA9X said;
It's all good

Thanks for the videos, we here all appreciate the work you do making sure we all get to view these stories.

As for 'it's all good'…….that second one needs to be spread like a virus….otherwise it'll be all very, very bad!

Last time we had Darth Dixon…this time lets use a different movie…..

Forget Joyce, he's Saruman….a gullible puppet…..we really need to be free of the puppet-master Lord Sauron and his evil board of Ring-Wraiths……

..and you can guess who Wormtongue is……...
So who's Frodo……?


no beer before posting on prune….no beer……..too late…..:p

[amos2]

hey! Give sheldon and the TWU the flick! Do the same to that idiot Purvis, or whatever his name is, and the Lames, and do your own thing!

Get rid of the poncy red ties and the poncy PAs and grow some balls!

You're an embarrassment to pilots all over the world!!

[Captain.Que]

Unlike most Qantas Employees Joyce has nothing to lose.He doesnt have a wife or kids and on his package he doesnt have a mortgage.If everything turns to mud he can return to Ireland with a handsome payout and retire.
He has no emotional attachment to Qantas or Australia.
The grounding of the entire Qantas fleet is evidence of that .In almost every management employee confrontation mangment wins.They have power and they have very deep corporate pockets.All workers have is their capacity to work.
On a personal level this makes me ill.
So Qantas employees need to put emotion aside and decide whether to go or stay.Many employees have unlike Joyce have an emotional attachment.
Some families have been with Qantas for three generations.Many have already made a decision and gone elsewhere.Many employees have been embraced by Virgin who appear to treat their employees with respect.
So do you stay and fight an unwinable war or move to greener pastures.
A very difficult decision.Stay work on your knees and remain angry or leave and stand tall ?

[tmadam]

If it was unsafe / too stressful to take off two days before an impending lockout, what about landing flights that were in the air when the grounding was announced? Were those on board at that time endangered?Presumably, the crew on board would not know about it. Management would have been careful not to announce it via ACARS or official communication, right? Do pilots have access to other communication networks prior to landing?Yes, it's been reported that pilots were made aware of the grounding in-flight and notified passengers.

[Going Boeing]

Amos, your recent posts make me think you are getting senile. Let me paint the picture for you again!

As a result of the initial EBA meetings it was obvious that ALL Qantas pilots would be made redundant (over the next few years) and replaced by pilots based offshore - if we didn't fight we were definitely going to lose our jobs, by fighting management, there was a possibility of retaining them.

It is very clear and unambiguous so I can't understand your position. :ugh:

[Keg]

Management would have been careful not to announce it via ACARS or official communication, right? Do pilots have access to other communication networks prior to landing?

Yes, it's called the ABC. It's on all over Australia.

[TallestPoppy]

Going Boeing, the only reason to replace the incumbent pilot workforce would be to introduce a new workforce on lower terms and conditions.

Did the Union ever consider finding out what changes they would need to make to become the pilot workforce of choice?

[ejectx3]

Are you kidding? Aipa has asked "what do you need from us to get the nod" to be met with blank stares....

They don't want us.... Full stop.

Why? That bit I can't work out.

[Going Boeing]

Did the Union ever consider finding out what changes they would need to make to become the pilot workforce of choice?

Yes, when AIPA's negotiators enquired, "How much do we have to give to guarantee our flying"?, the reply was "Even if you offered to fly the B787 for nothing, we wouldn't take you!" (or words to that effect).

Posted by Amos2
"grow some balls"

I assure you that we are not testicularly challenged. One of the big mistakes made by the domestic pilots in 1989 was to operate outside the "industrial system". We are determined not to make that mistake but we are resolved to keep fighting to protect not only our jobs but the careers for future pilots who want to reside in Australia. GB

[TallestPoppy]

Going Boeing, thanks for that. Well then I am mystified why they are doing what they are doing. I stand by my comments on a different thread though, that against your competition from overseas you are paid too handsomely. A lot of that is due to previous management, and a lot due to Australia's inflation.

[somewhereat1l]

Just found this link:

QANTAS – Finally the truth is coming out! | OzHouse Alt News (http://ozhouse.org/2011/10/30/qantas-finally-the-truth-is-coming-out/)

Sorry if its been posted before.

[Management In Charge]

There was only ever going to be one winner, and yes, I hear the bell ringing - And the winner is Qantas management!!
And a superb win at that. QF management are superior in intellect, we didn't graduate from accounting just to be outwitted by a bunch of dirty fingered mechanics and luggage lifters, please, give me a break.
The QF management team have truly earned their keep this week. Think about it? QF is the mother, the teat if you like, and the unions, shareholders and government are the suckling babe who cling to QF for their lifeline. It is a symbiotic relationship, but one that QF has the deepest of respect for.

1.First of all a brilliant outcome at the AGM. Management were justifiably rewarded for the excellent work they have undertaken in the past year. The remuneration packages for executives and the board are fair and reasonable, and a solid investment in keeping the key leaders moving the organization forward. To all the shareholders out there we thank you for your support.
2. The unions were outplayed, as well as the staff. A brilliant manouver that will go down in the analls of history. Management actually found the enemy quite easy to outwit.
3. The labor government were also outsmarted. This was a magnificently orchestrated move on the chess board. The long term gains of outsmarting the government will be reflected in a shareholder dividend, most likely in 2025 when the 787 comes onboard. It may take time but hey, it is worth the wait, and in these challenging economic times any dividend is proof that management are totally in charge.
4. The grounding of the fleet was particularly thoughtful of management. The undue stress that was being placed on staff was totally out of sync with the need for a 'just culture'. Management felt that in the interests of a just culture and under OHS legislation it would be prudent, even predictive ether than reactive, and in the best interest of staff health. Sadly this fact has been twisted by some in the media an some of our dear employees.
5. Shareholder value. It is important to consider the real heroes in this saga - the investor. They are both heroic and inspirational. They have endured countless stock downgrades, lack of dividends being paid, a lack of solid I any return on their investment, yet they loyally stick by the company's directors. They are inspirational, the unsung hero.
6. The passenger. Although a handful were inconvenienced, they understand that the grounding was undertaken with their best interest at heart. Management have no doubt that the fare paying public will fully agree on this point. Management look forward to putting this glitch and minor nuisance behind us as we embark on a new era, a new generation, the dawning if a new day in aviation.

QF management eagerly look forward to many more years directing this magnificent ship. Management are consumed with building a stronger brand and strategically conquering the Asian aviation market. Management aren't focused on the destination, it is the journey that lay ahead that is lined with streets paved out of gold.
Yes, this week has been monumental, a successful AGM, the unions crushed, a labor government outwitted and payrises and bonuses. It is a time for reflection, a time to prepare for the next journey, a time to rejoyce...

[amos2]

You never will learn will you, GB?

Pull your head in and appreciate what you've got!

[1a sound asleep]

Nobody likes what has happened. But life is short. You enjoying flying. You have a pretty good life in probably the best country in the world. Sometimes being happy with what you have is far better than being unhappy about what you dont have

There will always be Jobs for Australian pilots at Qantas, in our lifetimes, both domestically and internationally. To what extent and in what numbers we do not know. If you want to continue being part of it you get on with the job, keep your head clean and enjoy your career. If you take the smart road you will likely have a job to retirement. Become a stirrer and a **** fighter and you may well find yourself creating so much stress for yourself that you will hate your life. Enjoy

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

This bit did make me laugh well done.

Yes, this week has been monumental, a successful AGM, the unions crushed, a labor government outwitted and payrises and bonuses. It is a time for reflection, a time to prepare for the next journey, a time to rejoyce...
http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2011/07/20/1226098/524015-110721-alan-joyce-qantas.jpg

[teresa green]

Of course there will be always jobs in Qantas for Australian pilots 1A, but its just that the majority of Australian pilots would prefer that Australian engineers fix the buggers, and Australian flight attendants do their thing down the back, you would not think that unreasonable now would you? Well according to Mr. Joyce you are all being very unreasonable, because for half the price he can get the job done (hopefully) and a set of steak knives thrown in, by those from a country that pays peanuts. And he wonders why the staff are behaving badly.:ugh:

[TIMA9X]

MgGDhTPgjo8

Highlights from tonight's 7.30 report..... some good stuff here for those who missed it...

King William III, sorry mate, I could have put it better, "It's all good" did refer to the 2nd video, the reason why I broke it up. I also feel the ABC have really taken this issue buy the horns since AJ refused to go on air for a second day in a row. more later on that...

[glekichi]

Am I the only one that thinks Joyce wanted a "suspension" so that he could then keep the airline grounded for non-fwa reasons and start making staff redundant?

[QF94]

Am I the only one that thinks Joyce wanted a "suspension" so that he could then keep the airline grounded for non-fwa reasons and start making staff redundant?

I'm sure that's what he meant, but it came out wrong. I think he meant termination of employee contracts with the company, not termination of the PIA (not Pain In A$$, even though that's what it ended up being).

I'm suspecting that there won't be an agreement at the end of 21 days, the "Umpire" will make a ruling, and it will wipe out the current EBA's, starting from that date, no back pay with greatly reduced conditions.

If there does happen to be some dialogue between the warring parties, it will be a flat 2.5% to 3%, end of story. The rest of the log of claims will be discarded, people will go back to work, and QANTAS will be one big happy harmonious family with Alan Joyce steering us into a brighter, stronger and more certain future.

[kinteafrokunta]

Me thinks the Australian public and the world at large cannot be fooled for too long...the recent engine problems with QF planes looked very suspicious. Blame outsourcing.......... the QF board knows better, they had picked the brains of other airline management and professionals, not forgetting the manufacturers. Pilot safety, safe pilots; well this is 2011 and nobody gets easily fooled by all those grandiose claims of superiority of those false sky gods.

[Race Bannon]

Qantas management is both elitist and adversarial
They claim success for the brand and yet are known as "the visitors"
To gloat over sticking the boot into the workforce is indicative of a Hitlerian mentality.
What we have here are dysfunctional educated idiots claiming credit for the success of a business built on the sweat,integrity and intellect of others over 90 years
Other corporations are inclusive of their workforce and reap the benefits.
Corporate bullies can sometimes end up incarcerated.An outcome the dilettante author of the post 891 should take time to consider.
Being someone's girlfriend for that poster should prove for him an interesting experience.
It most certainly has entertainment value for many who frequent this forum

[POT100]

Its interesting to note that in all the press and tv reports today, they talk about how the management are going to repair the business by getting back the customers.Not one report asks how the management is going to get its now totally disengaged 35000 staff back on line.

This is a service industry and lets not forget that!.We do not all work on a factory production line and therefore have to obey each command from the factory foreman.The company cannot force you to smile or go that extra mile for a customer.People will go into work,do their day and go home..Nothing more, nothing less..

I can safely say that they can shove their next Engagement Surveys up their ar*e!!..(if they have the audacity to bring another one out that is).
With staff goodwill gone,morale shattered,interest evaporated AJ and co will lead a force of zombies!..They may have won this battle, but will lose the war in the long run.

Its not only outdated Engineering practices that will bring this airline down, its outdated management style..You only have to look at the positive moves at ANZ or VA.

The only solution now is to bring onboard a CEO that knows how to extract the best from his staff and find a Chairman who has a passion for putting this company back on top, instead of spending his well paid time annilating eveyone who doesn't seem to share his views..:=

[sani-com]

I notice that paragraph 7 of the FWA decision reads -
Qantas produced material indicating that the protected action taken by the unions prior to 29 October had affected 70,000 passengers, led to the cancellation of 600 flights, the grounding of 7 aircraft, $70 million in damage.

I don't know about the pax, the flights or the $, but from what I understand, the groundings are bullsh*t. Some of the aircraft were being readied for sale. If Qantas said that in the proceedings, that would be perjury, would it not? Please correct me if I am wrong.

[hotnhigh]

Management In Charge..
4. The grounding of the fleet was particularly thoughtful of management.

Wrong............It was to create a scenario that instantly damaged the economy......rapidly. Hence the available trigger to ask for termination. It didn't have anything to do with safety.

A bullet to the guts of all Australians no matter who they fly with or who they work for. Designed to cause mass panic and destruction in the shortest possible time frame. Delivered or fired by the management of Qantas.

All because it was starting to get difficult for them. Well guess what? The questions are being asked and the facts are starting to come out.
Qantas, backed by big business, as Alan Joyce has already acknowledge with his statement that he has lots of emails of support from them, was hoping to paint the fair work legislation as a failure. Well they are going to be proven radically wrong in the next few days.

I've never been a supporter of Gillard nor Albanese, however, question time today was enthralling. Their responses to the questions highlighted the massive gap between the liberal party and themselves.

Tony Abbott better learn pretty quickly that this has nothing to do with big bad unions. And continuing with this line of questioning is only going to highlight their complete misunderstanding of the fair work legislation and understanding of the whole drama. They looked like the amateurs today.
Up until yesterday I thought there wasn't a hope in hell for Gillard in the next election, but Qantas has handed her a lifeline of massive proportions by their stupid act. Now fair work legislation/work choices is front and centre, and the average Australian will quickly work out what the big end of town really stands for.(again) Themselves.

Nice one Alan.
Brilliant strategy.

P.S. Really looking forward to flying again tomorrow. Can someone tape question time? Thanks for offering management in charge.:D

[Slippery_Pete]

I don't know about the pax, the flights or the $, but from what I understand, the groundings are bullsh*t. Some of the aircraft were being readied for sale. If Qantas said that in the proceedings, that would be perjury, would it not? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter... Once the unions obtained permission from FWA to conduct PIA, Qantas could have shut down the next day in order to blackmail the government into termination of the PIA.

The fact is, the Fair Work legislation is an absolute crock and Gillard has essentially opened a back door for big business to circumvent PIA.

Even if the total loss to Qantas had been $70 rather than $70 million, it makes no difference to yesterday's judgement. The relationship between the financial cost to the airline of the union's action compared to the cost of Qantas' action is irrelevant. In fact, whether Qantas' grounding was appropriate or even legal is irrelevant - the point is, when Jooolia thinks there might be damage to the economy, she can stop it all on a whim and there is no accountability for Qantas' actions.

It's flawed legislation, and it's a national disgrace, and today (for the first time in my life) I'm embarassed to be an Australian.

[QF94]

The only solution now is to bring onboard a CEO that knows how to extract the best from his staff and find a Chairman who has a passion for putting this company back on top, instead of spending his well paid time annilating eveyone who doesn't seem to share his views

Sir Hudson Fysh, Captain Ritchie?

An extract from one of Hudson Fysh's books:

"Out of the rubble of war was born international transport - it had to be organised or chaos loomed - so the nations went to work.

Then the Qantas organisation, battered and war-weakened, was refashioned, and rose in a memorable period for further great things which lay ahead."

"In which Qantas spreads its wings to the world. In 1957 we encircled the globe, and sprang to world prominence, backed by a fine human service, the Qantas staff; and so we prospered."

Wings to the World may have been written in 1970, but an acknowledgement of the staff is what makes a great company. Not the management.

The current management need to take a leaf out of this book. Staff check-in passengers, clean the aircraft, cater the aircraft, load the aircraft, maintain the aircraft, fly the aircraft, serve the passengers, ensure compliance with regulatory bodies. The list goes on, but I won't. This applies to all industries. Not just aviation or QANTAS.

A sound company has sound practices and a willing workforce. Not just board members, profits and shareholders.

I know I'll be told that's not the way of the world today.

The basics never change. If customers are confident and convinced that the staff are genuine to their needs, the money will readily flow in. Unfortunately, we've engaged in a race to the bottom to be like everyone else.

[hotnhigh]

Slippery Pete,
the point is, when Jooolia thinks there might be damage to the economy, she can stop it all on a whim and there is no accountability for Qantas' actions.

And that's why she didn't use the piece of legislation that Tony Abbott is going on about, because it would have turned into a legal quagmire where her decision had the potential to be legally challenged in court and hence drawn the whole saga out for weeks as opposed to the two days as determined via Fair work.

The piece of legislation that Abbott is talking about is the ultimate piece of legislation should it be required. Perhaps Qantas believed that Gillard would have jumped to this first so as to try and claim some collateral damage to the other pieces of legislation along the way. I'm not sure. But one thing is for sure, the required proof of economic damage was provided for by Qantas managements actions in grounding the fleet, not the unions use of pia.

[Pukka]

The main issue for most Australians is that the system gives them a satisfying job, a job that helps them live the life they want to have and an income to meet their needs and hopes. A job well done in a cooperative, close-working relationship between management and employees can generate more productive work practices, provide more income for workers and enhance the capacity of Australian businesses to compete locally and internationally.

Peter Reith, The Drum Opinion, 20 September 2011.

[Slippery_Pete]

Hi hotnhigh.

Yes, I agree there are merits of the independent umpire method vs. Julia doing it directly under 424 or whatever it is, but those things are largely unimportant to my argument.

Whichever way it is achieved, it means big business can circumvent PIA. It's as simple as that.

BHP or any number of large businesses operating in Australia could do the same thing tomorrow - shut down their entire Australian operations because of a little PIA, economy looks like it could be damaged - and BINGO! - FWA by application (or Julia directly) roll over in a matter of hours.

[Pukka]

Your are on the money Slippery.

Remember the Chairman is out of the Resource sector and if we want to talk about conspiracy..... I believe he has used QF to clear the way for his Resource mates. Passengers are better fodder than ore wagons.

[Track Coastal]

Do they score highly(?):

Quiz: Is Your Boss a Psychopath? | Fast Company (http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/96/open_boss-quiz.html)

[hotnhigh]

Yes, agreed that big business can now circumvent pia by pulling such a stunt.
This will only change if the target, in this case, economic damage, is changed.
I'm sure this will probably occur, however, it would be ironic for big business to want this. I mean a central umpire to rule over negotiations to see if it was "fair". Ultimately, this does of course take away control from the participants but you'd have to think that most businesses would want a negotiated outcome because they retain some form of control over the final result, As opposed to none.
I think Qantas may have thought their demonstration of powers could have some how knobbled the fair work act. On the contrary, I think it will enhance it over time by enabling fair work australia to referee in such disputes, without such a harsh indicator (economic damage) to be the trigger, for the umpire to come in, as originally intended.

[neville_nobody]

Lateline are suggesting that a FWA arbitration ruling would not be able to rule on the union requests for job guarentees. If this turns out to be correct then this is a masterstroke by qf. They have forced the issues kmowing that if they cant negotiate a deal then a arbitrated contract will always go against what the unions want

[aseanaero]

How many Qantas employees hold Qantas shares and what is the % of the total shareholding ?

If all Qantas employees went out and bought $15,000 worth of shares you would hold over 300 million shares , bigger than any single institutional investor


154,926,282 (6.84%) Capital Group Companies Inc
171,298,307 (7.56%) Commonwealth Bank Group
115,135,358 (5.08%) Westpac Banking Corporation
183,766,868 (8.11%) Balanced Equity Management Pty Ltd
114,301,097 (5.05%) National Australia Bank Limited
202,442,206 (8.94%) Franklin Resources, Inc and its affiliates

[TIMA9X]

BHP or any number of large businesses operating in Australia could do the same thing tomorrow - shut down their entire Australian operations because of a little PIA, economy looks like it could be damaged - and BINGO! - FWA by application (or Julia directly) roll over in a matter of hours. Well said and the government know it. The funny thing is, this FWA stuff was put together by Julia herself.... I laughed when she pointed the finger at Abbott in parliament today er yesterday..... not a bad little clip from Sky today, one punter really gives AJ a mouthful!

YbXX-bdbzyg


And another thing while I am at it, note 117,565 votes for the SMH poll today, that's a huge amount of votes for a poll like this. One of the biggest I have seen from the smh. The force is with you, more than it probably feels at the moment. more soon.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wdOcV2zYHNM/Tq6uYq9oTTI/AAAAAAAAAC4/0sHZ6ToJRsY/s800/0012-grounded-final.jpg

[Ixixly]

aseanaero, where does one come by the figures you've supplied that show who owns the shares in Qantas? Just for my own curiosity :P

[aseanaero]

I googled it QANTAS AIRWAYS LIMITED (QAN) - Company Profile (http://www.investsmart.com.au/shares/asx/QANTAS-AIRWAYS-LIMITED-QAN.asp)

It should also be in the last annual report and other company documents

Qantas Board of Directors (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/board-of-directors/global/en)

There's not much sympathy to be found with this board of Directors (one is my former indirect boss in a former life), I'm surprised there isn't more staff from within that have come up though the ranks of the company.

A great group of directors if you want to part out and sell an airline , they'll even be able to refer work to their former firms.

I'm surprised General Cosgrove as a high profile and respected figure hasn't jumped in to defend the CEO or perhaps he didn't agree and has been muzzled

Perhaps the way forward is to start buying a sizeable chunk of the airline back into staff hands.


.

[Ixixly]

Huh, googled it as well and did not find that particular site, thanks for that!

[Kangaroo Court]

Alan Joyce has crossed the line in underestimating the loyalty of Australians to one another-as a foreign national.

If you mess with one of us, you have done so with all.

It might be time to look at "greener" pastures from which you came, Sir!

[Me Myself]

The only solution now is to bring onboard a CEO that knows how to extract the best from his staff and find a Chairman who has a passion for putting this company back on top, instead of spending his well paid time annilating eveyone who doesn't seem to share his views

You mean a guy who is never going to mention the dirty word of cost cutting ?
Dream on ! You guys live in lala land. Very surprising when so many of your countrymen live and work for the Middle and Far East competition.
I just watch the LateLine segment wit Cpt Jackson. Ehhhhhhhhh, Hemmmmmmmmmmmmmm, not about money, hummmmmmmmmmm, I mean money.
What is it about ???? If I'm so bold as to ask ??
The best bit : Jetstar pilots in some cases make more money than Qantas. Good one !

Look at the market reaction. QF share up 4% after the lock out. That's the amount of support you boys are getting.
I find it facinating that after all these years of Dixon and Joyce rising, you were able to think that a forever indsutrial action wouldn't be met with some tough reaction.
good luck

[aseanaero]

Any ideas on why the lady (Company Secretary) who signed the AGM minutes on 28 October

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20111028/pdf/4224p8q5jj9jn4.pdf

'retired' (resigned from the position?) today ?

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20111031/pdf/42275mk2hvv3xx.pdf

Keep a watch on the ASX corporate announcements page , this is the one the matters and has teeth legally

QANTAS AIRWAYS LIMITED (QAN) - ASX Listed Company Information Fact Sheet (http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/companyInfo.do?by=asxCode&asxCode=QAN#headlines)

[Amygdala1]

Still a bit confused (and I've done a bit of economics).

Simply, I used to fly Qantas (ie last week) 3 to 4 times a week domestically and about 6 times a year internationally and apart from mid-morning and evening the aircraft were FULL (1). I usually check the other international carriers (that I would consider flying on) and they are USUALLY always MORE expensive that Qantas. Add some impressive salaries of Board and Senior Execs (2) and we have a healthy positive. So the 'little people' who are actually fundamental to the airline want some security and even maybe a few more bucks. Is the fare price point right? Doesn't Qantas offer a different product (safety, service, reliability [right!] and the intangibles like iconic etc). So simple Supply and Demand woudl suggest the price is too low. This competing in the marketplace just doesn't wash with me. They are competing and competing strongly otherwise 1 and 2 would not be applied.

[DJ737]

The flights may be full, but are they making enough money?

Sydney to Frankfurt in Business on QF5 01MAR12 $11409 (QF Website)
Sydney to Frankfurt in Business on QF5 01MAR12 $2313 (S7 Website)
S7 airlines are a QF One World partner, yet their fare is $9000 cheaper.
QF must be losing out here.

[Amygdala1]

Agreed, there are competitive prices but is this competition to Qantas? The two sides of the equation must work and obviously COST is one of those. There would be no doubt that Qantas costs would be high and this is NOT only staff. Look at any ex-government business and managment all think they are business savvy but are really quite unsophisticated. My point is that they must have the product right so leave something that is working alone or don't do things that will destroy it. Work on the costs without destroying the product. Staff can actually help there and the primitive reduce staff numbers and cost is such an unsophisticated approach to business - hell anyone can do that and you don't need to pay multi-million dollar salaries to find someone who can (and then use another unsophisticated and sole argument of justification by comparison). This is just another example of sub-optimal management without leadership.

[gimpgimp]

Apologies if posted elsewhere. Interesting read.


Quite why Middle Eastern airlines have become the whipping boys in the latest Qantas dispute is a mystery to me – as an Australian who is not afraid of a little competition, and as a global airline chief executive who understands that every airline juggles with a grab bag of advantages and disadvantages.

The stream of wrong assertions about the amazing benefits Middle Eastern airlines have that somehow make Qantas unable to compete badly needs some balance.

For example – the claims that Gulf carriers are funded by generous and unlimited government subsidies. Etihad doesn’t receive a cent in subsidies.

Or that it doesn’t matter if we make a profit. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are very clearly focused on profitability.

Then there is the furphy that we get our fuel for free. In 2010 we fixed the price of 75 per cent of our jet fuel needs in a hedging portfolio with 17 global financial institutions. The fact is we pay more to refuel our jets in Abu Dhabi than we do in Singapore or Chicago.

We also pay for airport and landing charges at our hub in Abu Dhabi. The airport has the same profitability mandate as Etihad – why would they waive fees and charges for us? We pay market rates – the same rates as the other 34 airlines that fly to our home base.

And the no-tax refrain. Etihad operates in the same tax-free regime as all companies in the United Arab Emirates – including our airline competitors. But, we have tax obligations in the 43 other countries to which we fly.

And then of course, the claim about slave labour. Not only do we pay well, but we pay you the same for the job you do whether you are Australian or Thai or Congolese or any one of the other 120 nationalities we employ. On top of that we provide a host of other benefits such as housing, schooling for your children, health care, and even fitness centres.

It is not sovereign guarantees, government protection and cheap labour that underpin the success of airlines from the Middle East – and, as falsely claimed, are helping to nobble the Flying Kangaroo.

What is driving the increasing number of Australian travellers seeking a better alternative for their overseas travel?

There is one basic factor: choice. That is what we have offered following the exit of a raft of European airlines over an extended period – before Etihad was even born, I should point out.

And informing that choice are four things: network, product, service and dedicated staff.

Customers want access to modern and dynamic networks, with as few stops along the way as they can get. Middle Eastern airlines offer this.

Customers want new aircraft, with fresh products and innovative service. Middle Eastern airlines offer this.

Middle Eastern airlines have the right to take people to and from – and through – the Middle East. Certainly Qantas isn’t willing to fly through the Middle East, although it could it if chose.

It has chosen instead to focus on a different part of the world. Quite rightly, they are taking advantage of their own geography, and their other multiple benefits, which include consistent profitability, a strong brand and a long history.

It may be uncomfortable for established national carriers to face new competition. But that has been shown time and time again to be good for the consumer and – over the long term – good for the market.

So please don’t blame Middle Eastern airlines for doing what they have a right to do: compete.
Link A perverse airline blame game | James Hogan, Etihad Airlines CEO | Commentary | Business Spectator (http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Qantas-Etihad-Virgin-airline-dispute-price-fuel-pd20111101-N6QQK?OpenDocument&src=sph)

[Jabawocky]

15 years of poor management decisions is ALL it takes to get to this.

AIPA need to publish a timeline of corkups and a dollar figure ongoing.

I bet it would shock them also.

[breakfastburrito]

The Propaganda machine.

This article Media Matrix and General Reality (http://www.scribd.com/doc/71060942/Gordon-T-Long-TRIGGER-October-11-2011-10-31)(scroll to page 22) gives a very good perspective on the MSM propaganda machine. You need to have an understanding of these processes to have any hope of making sense of the forces at play. Although it is applied to trading, it is highly relevant to the Qantas situation.

He mentions three sources: Propaganda: (http://www.amazon.com/Propaganda-Edward-Bernays/dp/0970312598) Edward Bernays - the father of the "pubic relations" industry.

Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media (http://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Consent-Political-Economy-Media/dp/0375714499/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320098538&sr=1-1) (1988), by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky

Manufacturing Consent - Noam Chomsky and the Media - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AnB8MuQ6DU)

[NIGELINOZ]

From Business Spectator-
Qantas returning to normal today | News | Business Spectator (http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Qantass-first-flight-takes-off-N68DZ?OpenDocument&src=hp1&src=amm)

Moody's flag possible Qantas downgrade
Ratings agency Moody's investor service has placed Qantas Airways Ltd under review for a possible downgrade this afternoon, citing its weekend grounding and ongoing industrial action.

Moody's said the weekend grounding of Qantas' fleet and other industrial relations actions over the weekend were likely to place pressure on the airline's forward bookings, profitability and future brand equity.
The announcement by Moody's, which came almost simultaneously with the take-off of the first post-grounding Qantas flight, represents another setback for the airline with the unions already seeking legal advice on challenging the ruling by Fair Work Australia that ended their stand-off between with Qantas.
"Qantas' Baa2/P-2 ratings have already been weakly positioned within the rating – as indicated by the previous negative outlook – due to the challenging operating environment as well as rising tensions on the industrial relations front for the airline over a longer period of time," Moody's vice president and senior credit officer Ian Lewis said in a statement.
and in another Business Spectator article we have this-
The AFR also said the Qantas plans to temporarily double the earn rate on frequent flyer points in a move targeted at regaining the high-yielding corporate market, which has defected to Virgin since the industrial action picked-up in August.
The preparations for the campaign with advertising agency M&C Saatchi have been in the pipeline for at least a week adding weight to the idea that Qantas' plans to ground the airline were well advanced by the time it enacted it on Saturday.Qantas set to cut prices: report | News | Business Spectator (http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Qantas-set-to-cut-prices-report-pd20111101-N6QY2?OpenDocument&src=rab)

[breakfastburrito]

Moody's said the weekend grounding of Qantas' fleet and other industrial relations actions over the weekend were likely to place pressure on the airline's forward bookings, profitability and future brand equity.

Moody's are not fooled, read the wording very carefully - it has become a self fulfilling prophecy. The actions over the weekend were likely to place pressure on bookings. Not before, but as a direct result of unilateral actions by management, not the unions.

Just remind us Alan, who is "Trashing the Brand".

[tail wheel]

Re post #914, I am not sure where those shareholder figures come from, but from the Qantas Annual Report for 2011 (http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/investors/2011AnnualReport.pdf) (Page 109), Qantas declare the following largest shareholders:

1. J P Morgan Nominees Australia ................ 514,714,244 shares .... 22.72%
2. HSBC Custody Nominees (Australia) Limited 428,322,920 shares .... 18.91%
3. National Nominees Limited ...................... 413,707,968 shares .... 18.26%
4. Citicorp Nominees Pty Limited ................. 253,053,991 shares .... 11.17%

300 million staff shares would represent only 13.24% of the issued capital (2,265,123,620 shares) and have little impact at an AGM.

Any significant staff equity participation, without the support of the Board and institutional investors, is simply impossible and a pipe dream.

Interesting the share price is up 7.32% since the ASX opened on Monday morning but 39,003,746 shares traded in the past 26 hours or so appears abnormally high? Short term speculation or long term participation? :confused:

By comparison, Virgin shares are up 4.17% since Monday ASX opening, but an unusually high 26,133,837 shares have been traded? :confused:

Between Friday's close and the current share price (10.30 am 1 November) Qantas market capitalisation has risen $260,489,216, slighly higher than the total cost of industrial action and fleet grounding losses........

[Cactusjack]

FWA Cup

Race of the day is at 1300 sharp Nov 21, 2011, so get your bets in as it will be a big event.

Main race as follows:

Horse 1: ‘Bad Hair Day’, rider is Olive Wirthless, trained by Stefan. Odds 60/1

Horse 2: ‘Rio Tonto’, rider is Lee Cliffhead, trained by L. Ranger. Odds 66/1

Horse 3: ‘Al’s Boy’, rider is TBA, there has been many jockeying and trying out for this ride. Odds 70/1

Horse 4: ‘Orange Clown’, rider Antony Belowtheknees, trained by Hawke. Odds 80/1

Horse 5: ‘Il Deuce’, rider S. Donohue, trained by C.Storrie. Odds are a massive 99/1, but a win would position the industry very well, creating not only history but long term gain for all punters

Horse 6: ‘Bow Tie’, rider Ched Dixon, trained by L. Strabismus. Odds 88/1

Horse 7: ‘Bruceters Millions’, rider TBA, but is to be an outsourced consultant jockey. Odds 90/1

Horse 8: ‘Beijing Babe’, rider Lee Lee Clifford, trained by Mao Tse-tung. Odds 75/1

Horse 9: ‘Paddle Pop’, rider S.Purvinas, trained by B.Jackson. The starting odds on this race have improved after an incorrectly perceived slow start. With such a long race to run and a field consisting of predominately weak, spineless competition, Odds are now 6/1

Horse 10: “LATE SCRATCHING”! ‘Seven Eight Seven’, a young gelding that has been scratched to a delayed arrival into Australia for the cup. He is expected to race next in the 2012 cup.

[big buddah]

Who owns Qantas?
By James Cogan
31 October 2011
Qantas CEO Alan Joyce has made repeated reference to the “96 percent support” he received from shareholders at the company’s annual general meeting on October 28—the day before he and the Qantas board grounded the airlines’ entire global fleet.
He did not mention that the biggest 20 shareholders control 80.3 percent of total voting shares, and that just the top four, a group of major global financial conglomerates, hold over 70 percent.
Qantas is an example of how the most powerful financial interests exert sway over the commanding heights of the economy. Just 240 of the company’s 133,392 shareholders own 82.49 percent of the stock. Contrary to claims that some type of “shareholders democracy” exists, small investors have no say in the company’s direction or conduct.
The largest Qantas shareholder—with 22.72 percent of the company—is J. P. Morgan Nominees Australia, a division of the global J. P. Morgan investment house.
The second largest is HSBC Custody Nominees with 18.91 percent. Next is National Nominees with an 18.26 percent stake. The fourth largest is Citicorp Nominees.
These four investment funds are also among the largest shareholders of Australia’s four major banks, the Commonwealth Bank, National Australia Bank, Westpac Bank and ANZ Bank, which in turn are large shareholders of the investment funds.
J. P. Morgan, HSBC, National Nominees and Citicorp are also the top four shareholders of Australia’s two largest resource companies, BHP-Billiton and Rio Tinto. They appear prominently in the top 20 list of shareholders of numerous companies, ranging from oil corporation Caltex to construction and property giants Leighton Holdings and Lend Lease.
This web of interconnections guarantees that the executives of any company serve as the direct representatives of finance and carry out their dictates. They move seamlessly between different companies, serving the same essential masters.
Qantas chairman Leigh Clifford, for example, was previously the CEO of Rio Tinto. The other board members include former executives of the banks, mining conglomerates, industrial companies and global equity funds, as well as retired military chief General Peter Cosgrove, who commanded the neo-colonial Australian intervention into East Timor in 1999.

.......................

[airtags]

I can feel a 'save Q' sticker campaign coming on sort of like buy Australian or 'dolphin firendly'...........

..............unfortunately we're the bloody tuna in this and inevitably we're being gutted and squashed into a made in Asia can.

[Andu]

neo-colonial Australian intervention into East TimorNeo-colonial? That ridiculous emotive phrase damn near blew the writer's otherwise sensible argument to oblivion.

[Slippery_Pete]

Hi hotnhigh


Yes, agreed that big business can now circumvent pia by pulling such a stunt.
This will only change if the target, in this case, economic damage, is changed.



You are, unfortunately, absolutely right.

What should have happened at FWA...
1. The assessment should have simply been whether Qantas' actions (lockout) were commensurate with the unions' PIA previously approved by FWA, and if not, a lockout of staff completely prohibited
2. Each industrial dispute (AIPA, TWU, ALAEA) vs. Qantas should have been handled separately.

The goal-posts are in completely the wrong position for a myriad of reasons. If Qantas were a small business (without access to national economy damage) this would not have been an option to them.

Big business is controlling Julia under her own, bull**** legislation.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

The Punch (http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/the-qantas-dispute-is-not-about-alan-joyces-salary/).

[bandit2]

I hear the `muppets` talk about the safety of the a/c etc. Certainly didn`t see any security around the grounded A/C in Syd. What if someone sabotaged these aircraft? And now they`re flying.

[King William III]

I'm surprised General Cosgrove as a high profile and respected figure hasn't jumped in to defend the CEO or perhaps he didn't agree and has been muzzled

If he had an ounce of integrity he would resign and hold a press conference stating why!

I guess to get to the top of the military takes the same skills as getting to the top of the corporate world……...

[woollcott]

Following email sent to engineers from the esteemed Mr Nassenstein:


Hi everyone,

I’d like to thank each and every one of you for your professionalism you have shown over the last 48 hours, I am pleased to say we are flying again.

With so much going on and a lot of distractions it is important to ensure our focus and priority is on keeping our aircraft flying safely and assisting our passengers.

As always, please continue to stay focused on the task at hand and keep safe.

Take care,
Chris


Chris Nassenstein
Executive Manager, Qantas Engineering

[TIMA9X]

VJHOgRMcH_8
Lateline part 1 2 3

80UDVY4bxO8

Shorten interview

uMpByV_yOMo

Barry Jackson interview

The feeling is, AJ has upset many in Canberra..... and has OW been sidelined?

.

[Jabawocky]

Interesting point. Cosgrove would have us believe he was a firm but fair leader, one that actually engaged his troops.

Read his book he talks about being in East Timor and in the trenches so to speak. This is not the kind of leadership he is demanding of the senior executives let alone fellow board members.

Rule No.1 in Leadership. Never expect others to do things you are not prepared to do yourself.

[Sarcs]

From page 679 of the Fair Work Act 2009:
Division 7—Ministerial declarations
431 Ministerial declaration terminating industrial action
(1) The Minister may make a declaration, in writing, terminating
protected industrial action for a proposed enterprise agreement if
the Minister is satisfied that:
(a) the industrial action is being engaged in, or is threatened,
impending or probable; and
(b) the industrial action is threatening, or would threaten:
(i) to endanger the life, the personal safety or health, or the
welfare, of the population or a part of it; or
(ii) to cause significant damage to the Australian economy
or an important part of it.
(2) The declaration comes into operation on the day that it is made.
(3) A declaration under subsection (1) is not a legislative instrument.

I fail to see why this wasn't invoked prior to Joyce announcing the lockout and grounding! The only possible reason, that I can see, is Julia wanted her pet (FWA) to sort the matter out and therefore show how good a system it is. If that is the case why didn't they make the application to FWA prior to the 5pm deadline?

Julia's reasoning that 431, if invoked, could be open to judicial review is a bull:mad:t excuse! Who cares if it was contested judicially, at least she would have stopped the grounding of an airline! As it is 424 maybe contested by the TWU, so what is the difference? The only difference, that I can see, is that the 431 clause was carried over from the previous legislation (Work Choices) and Julia wanted to get kudos for her own legislation ie 424!

As a side note, the Fair Work Act is 670 pages long. No wonder each side has a team of lawyers just to decipher the legislation!:ugh:

[aseanaero]

I wonder what it's like to be the most reviled person in Australia at the moment ?

He can't go out for a cafe latte or go see a musical ...

In his own social circles he's probably a hero but he won't be able to show his face at a public venue for a long long time.

Why did the company secretary retire on monday ? Too much pressure ? Didn't agree with what's going on ?

There's some dark forces at work (the 4 major shareholders) and they're very smart (including Joyce)



.

[airtags]

Heard a great line last night - kids in the street are trick or treating in Alan Joyce masks

OK - enough already

[bankrunner]

I guess to get to the top of the military takes the same skills as getting to the top of the corporate world……...

The military occasionally promotes people "out of harm's way" for gross incompetence. Look at the senior ADF officer who left a highly classified CD in a Qantas Club computer, only for it to be picked up and for it to find its way to a well known talkback radio host.

That said, Cosgrove is not one of these. He more than proved his merits in East Timor.

[ohallen]

I dont think anyone is doubting the Generals impeccable history.

What is testing the minds of some is the inconsistency with that record and the current actions to which he is a party.

There is a signifcant risk that if this thing goes pear shaped his legacy may be rewritten.

Re the Company Secretary you left out one critical element. The risk of being exposed to legal action both civil and criminal. If this thing does go pear shaped then the Company Secretary rates up there with the Board because of Corps Law obligations. Even if nothing goes wrong there are many who have expended years defending what they did, so it becomes all life consuming and potentially VERY expensive because no D&O Policy will indemnify if breaches of the law are found.

Of course I am talking theoretically and not specifically.

[gobbledock]

Interesting point. Cosgrove would have us believe he was a firm but fair leader, one that actually engaged his troops.
Read his book he talks about being in East Timor and in the trenches so to speak. This is not the kind of leadership he is demanding of the senior executives let alone fellow board members.
Rule No.1 in Leadership. Never expect others to do things you are not prepared to do yourself. Great post....I for one am sick of hearing of Cosgrove being placed on some kind of pedestal. He may have been a General and may have been 'the man' in the armed services but that was then and this is now, and now he is nothing more than another face on the QF board of trough dwellers, where loyalty, comradship and leadership are NOT an attribute. Each member of the board and the executive management team share an equal measure in how this parasitic company operates. So get over it, the board ARE the enemy.

Why did the company secretary retire on monday ? Too much pressure ? Didn't agree with what's going on ? Who gives a sh#t really, a small player with irrelevant input. Probably has been paid out and the role outsourced to someone in Cambodia.
Julia's reasoning that 431, if invoked, could be open to judicial review is a bullhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gift excuse! Agreed. She is nothing more than a big talker, what a crock of ****e. Didn't have the testicular fortitude to use 431, too much legal implications??? Please, spare us the political smoke and mirrors Julia and stop treating Aussies like we are some kind of jungle imbeciles, we can smell your bulls#it from one end of Australia to another. Labor is a disgrace and so is Shorten and Combet, union turncoats.

Somebody also asked earlier where OW is? Again, she is a small time muppet with little to no effect on the airline other than fronting the media with bad hair and a facial expression like she just snorted vinegar.Obviously the Irishman felt that he, his red tie and bad teeth would make a more 'manly, executive, controlling demeanor'. I disagree, if that is the look they wanted they should have trotted out OW, or the Carbon Queen with her mannish walk and Hair Dresser in tow.

[SimonBl]

Re OW, I am sure I heard AJ mention that she was one of the team of 4 (IIRC) that implemented Saturday's actions. Anyone else recall this?

[Torres]

A Board decision requires a simple majority, not a unanimous vote.

The Board Members are bound by confidentiality.

We may never know how many or which Directors supported the motion and vote to ground Qantas, but it must have been at least a simple majority (50% plus 1 = 6 votes).

I still believe the game is only around quarter time and the umpire has only given one free kick so far.

[watch your6]

On what basis does Allan Joyce enjoy residency in Australia ?
Does he still travel on an Irish passport.
What is his status as a visitor to this country ?

[breakfastburrito]

Re OW, I am sure I heard AJ mention that she was one of the team of 4 (IIRC) that implemented Saturday's actions. Anyone else recall this?
Sunday nights special 7:30 report - AJ,OW,IO and a former labour luminary - Check TIMA9X's posts, he has uploaded the these episodes to youtube. When you find the quote, please post & reference it.

[Torres]

On what basis does Allan Joyce enjoy residency in Australia ?

Through the right of Australian Citizenship.

[SimonBl]

watch your6, not sure i agree with your implications, but IIRC AJ is a naturalised Australian.

Edit: Torres beat me to it, thanks.

[gobbledock]

On what basis does Allan Joyce enjoy residency in Australia ?
Does he still travel on an Irish passport.
What is his status as a visitor to this country ? More to the point, how do parasites get through Customs undetected??

[Roger that.]

Couple of points here AJ.
Not so long ago you had me do an online ethics course. Did you do it? I'm thinking you didn't. To leave so many pax in the dark is beyond forgiveness. The stories I've heard on the TV and radio are so sad it make's me ashamed.
You've had all these business leaders say you were right to do what you did. That's funny, because I've had a heap of mate's (Got any of those?) say you make way too much money.
I've also been wondering about that thing called "respect" Not you to me, because I know that just is'nt. I'm talking me to you. How in God's name can I respect you? The things you do & the things you say about me and my 35,000 brother's and sister's, it just can't happen. It make's me wonder how you can live with that...Maybe your pay packet is a nice thing the curl up with at night.


I said on here a while back. "God is watching you" Look into your heart, or talk to a worker on the floor and either one of them will be able to tell you what he's saying.

[teresa green]

Lets buy the damn thing, $15,000 each, and for those who cannot afford it, we go by stealth. Then offer Borgetti a block of flats to come back and get the joint up and running again, using, wait for it, Australians. Just a dream I suppose, but how good would it be.

[SimonBl]

Breakfastburrito,

You were right, thanks, as was I:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgGDhTPgjo - go to the 3:25 mark for the relevant section.

[gobbledock]

Not so long ago you had me do an online ethics course. Did you do it? I'm thinking you didn't. To leave so many pax in the dark is beyond forgiveness. The stories I've heard on the TV and radio are so sad it make's me ashamed.
Good point. For one example, how did that Cancer surgeon go that was delayed due to the grounding and couldn't get to Brisbane to treat 3 cancer patients??
This is one example of many. I am glad the decision makers in this farce who grounded the airline can sleep well at night making decisions like that. This was a totally arrogant self centered greed induced act that cannot and should not be forgiven and forgotten. Disgusting corporate turds.

[airtags]

Minister for Mascot's pre question time presser made some interesting allegations - Q time in the chamber seems to suggest that there might be more to Ms Worthless being MIA than first suggested......ASIC inquiry may become a necessity if shareholders were to complain

.........:E

[watch your6]

The post was an attempt to establish Joyce's status in this country.
It has been said elsewhere that an Australian born CEO would not have made the decision to ground the Qantas Fleet and lock out its workforce.
Joyce does not appear to have any memory of 1989 nor an understanding of the Australian concept of fairness.
Further Joyce is no longer welcome in this country if he continues down this very divisive path with his apalling treatment of Australian workers and his total disregard for paying Qantas customers.
If the Qantas workforce were disengaged before this event they most definitely are hostile now.There will never be harmony or trust in the Qantas workplace after this.The business will suffer accordingly

[blackhander]

Why didn't the minister revoke the PIA?

Simply because there were no grounds to until qantas' actions came about. The actions of the 3 unions involved were not hurting the economy.

Some of you should read the media more critically when it comes to politics, as you all know they tend to lie to suit their own agenda when it comes to reporting on aviation industrial matters, what makes you think the same bull**** isnt written when it comes to politics.

Murdock is a genius in that he publishes for the working man that have managed to convince the worker that things that are good for them are actually bad eg. the rite to take protected action in support of industrial claims

[aseanaero]

The problem here is that the institutional investors see an opportunity for a windfall profit.

You could be a food producer , make toilet seats , whatever , in this case you're an airline and in their eyes an inefficient, out of date dinosaur

If the workforce can be reduced from 35,000 Australians to 25,000 Australians and the other 10,000 jobs outsourced to Asia costs them HALF of what they are spending in OZ in simple terms they've saved about a half a billion dollars a year at a 10% return that's worth about $5 billion to the value of the company , they've doubled their money and will move on to the next investment opportunity.

The arguments about high safety (why does Qantas need to be safer than other airlines they will ask, why does Qantas have a zero total hull loss record when other major listed airlines can have a major accident every decade and still trade as normal) and being an Australian icon have no currency in their eyes.

The only way I can see the staff getting into a better position to fight is to have equity in the company , as a significant shareholder you have rights to know the corporate strategy to increase 'shareholder value'. To buy the whole company would cost something like $100,000 to $150,000 per employee depending on what happens to the share price but even as a 5% to 10% shareholder ($7,500 to $15,000 per employee) you have significant rights and power.

Politically it would be supported , Qantas staff buying shares in their own airline that in some cases has been their employer since they left school. If you want to fight for survival this is one option open to Qantas staff and you would have board representation , you would know what they know and if facts are concealed from your board member then you have legal rights also. In the longer term with just emotional arguments you are going to lose , the benefits are just too great for the institutional shareholders to walk away and sell down their investments.

Qantas staff need to buy a seat on the board.

I wonder how many Qantas shares Qantas employees ALREADY own collectively ?



.

[airtags]

If Olivia surfaces will any journo dare to ask:

Did you or anyone from your office, including the paid "consultant" have any communication with any opposition MP, or their advisers, between 23rd October and 29 October?

and:

Did you or anyone from your office, including the paid "consultant" have any communication with the Chief of Staff or Advisors of either the Victorian Premier or the NSW Premier between 23rd October and 29 October?

[SimonBl]

airtags, yes, it's certainly looking a bit suspicious on the part of the Opposition.

[gobbledock]

If Olivia surfaces will any journo dare to ask:
Did you or anyone from your office, including the paid "consultant" have any communication with any opposition MP, or their advisers, between 23rd October and 29 October?
and:
Did you or anyone from your office, including the paid "consultant" have any communication with the Chief of Staff or Advisors of either the Victorian Premier or the NSW Premier between 23rd October and 29 October? Aagh now we start to see the reason she has gone to ground ? Perhaps Senator Xenophon would like to ask the same question of her? Should this question be asked of her before a parliamentary commision? Shouldn't be a problem, you can't get into trouble if you don't lie, agreed?

[SimonBl]

An interesting (to me, anyway) article:

A Naked Conflict Between Profits And Wages | newmatilda.com (http://newmatilda.com/2011/11/01/naked-conflict-between-profits-and-wages)

[aseanaero]

An interesting (to me, anyway) article:

A Naked Conflict Between Profits And Wages | newmatilda.com

Thanks for the link. I found this paragraph interesting.

But is Qantas’ new low-cost Asian strategy necessarily the right one? And is it necessarily bad for unions to have a seat at the management table? The hard-line economists and management theorists say no, of course. And yet in Germany, all companies with more than 500 employees must have staff representatives on their board as a matter of law. Despite this, Germany still manages to be an industrial and manufacturing powerhouse.

Perhaps as part of the arbitration Qantas staff gets a seat on the board without buying shares ? Hmmm , 'they' wouldn't like that at all ... perhaps Cosgrove could bow out in the interests of the employees and give his board seat to the workers ? What do you think ?

[tail wheel]

Lets buy the damn thing, $15,000 each, and for those who cannot afford it, we go by stealth.

Teresa, that would buy 35,000 staff a mere 14.18% of the issued capital at todays price - it would actually cost $105,813 each for 35,000 staff to buy 100% control.

On the other hand, if all the staff owned an investment vehicle, were prepared to risk all their assets and employed a few very smart financial advisors, there would be nothing to stop them acquiring a controlling share..........

[aseanaero]

Teresa, that would buy 35,000 staff a mere 14.18% of the issued capital at todays price

It's still a significant chunk of shares and in the event that there's 'assymetric disclosure' between the staff shareholder and the institutional shareholders there's legal ramifications with very sharp teeth.

Maybe Qantas staff ALREADY own a significant chunk of shares .

I think the easiest way is as part of the arbitration that Qantas staff have a representative on the board , what's wrong with that ? It would be another Qantas PR disaster for that to be refused.


.

[apache]

I very much doubt that FWA will award something that hasnt been asked for.

[fishers.ghost]

Qantas must think again

Kerreen Reiger

November 1, 2011 Opinion






We now know how little regard the airline has for staff and travellers.
I am writing this on an American Airlines flight heading across the US. I've just been offloaded when the Qantas one was grounded, much to the horror of the conscientious and courteous staff about to be locked out. We heard the news when the captain was about to respond to a passenger's query about who won the Victoria Derby, only to find much more urgent issues demanding his attention. The cabin crew were just dumbstruck. So were we all.
How has it come to this? I am a social scientist who researches workplace and professional cultures and have long had an interest in airline work, especially research into gendered practices. Not only do I travel frequently but I saw the long-term impact and emotional toll wrought by the Ansett dispute and its aftermath on friends and on my local community. One of the most distressing scenes I recall from 1990 was the sight of middle-aged male pilots crying at the airport as they farewelled their families and headed offshore for jobs.
And now it's Qantas. Over recent weeks I have become more and more alarmed, not at union concerns at jobs going offshore and lowering safety standards, but at the evident agenda of Qantas's management in seeking to ''trash the brand'' itself.

'The evident agenda of Qantas's management is seeking to trash the brand itself.'

I recently flew on the last leg of a so-called ''Qantas'' flight from Los Angeles via Auckland. Instead it was a Jetconnect flight bearing little resemblance to the professional standards traditionally associated with Qantas. The plane was shabby and service was minimal.
Jetstar, or worse, is clearly the model now being proposed for Qantas. Yet reports suggest that it's an awful organisation to work for. Indeed, I was horrified recently to hear that lower-paid Thai flight attendants had to sleep on a Jetstar plane on the tarmac instead of having a proper rest in a hotel.
There must be another way. Alan Joyce and his management's determination to strip back both Jetstar and now Qantas, shows both short-sightedness and lack of commitment to their workforce, their invaluable human capital.
We can take another tack though. Interestingly enough, airlines have led the international field in recognising the intrinsic link between the human factors making for crew error and mishaps and instituting training procedures to minimise accidents. This has now influenced the field of healthcare, yet some leading hospitals have gone further and are streets ahead of aviation, or at least of airlines such as Qantas.
They have shown that you can't have good outcomes without excellence in organisational cultures. Accordingly, influential healthcare leaders have set out to improve quality and safety through insisting on high standards of performance from everyone - from executives to cleaners - and always based on the shared value of giving effective service to patients or ''consumers''. The workplace practices espoused by the Institute for Healthcare Improvement, the Studer Group, and Planetree network in the US for instance are now well recognised.
Most tellingly for airlines struggling in a difficult market, US hospitals following these new management principles also become successful financially. Good leadership from the top down to improve performance and build collegiality pays off, lowering costs and gaining market share. Another model is out there to look to, if the damage done recently can be repaired.
Enlightened management consultants, rather than industrial relations antagonists, are needed to help get some genuine dialogue going. And some independent journalists not influenced by Qantas ''favours'' need to put their skills to work, too. We need to know the grounds for aircraft maintenance and safety concerns and have a national debate about aviation work standards, preferably before the risk of planes crashing increases.
We know that airline jobs are pretty good ones to have, but right now I, for one, don't begrudge the rewards of those who have them. As I'm on a plane about to climb down from 41,000 feet into JFK airport, and through an unseasonable and wild snow storm, I just see them working hard. I am also glad they see me as a passenger towards whom they have a ''duty of care'', not just a customer. We might take large jets hurtling across continents for granted now but on nights like this one, it pays to remember the extraordinary achievement this human endeavour remains and to respect those who make it possible for us to arrive safely.
Dr Kerreen Reiger is an honorary research fellow in the School of Social Sciences at La Trobe University and a Qantas frequent flyer.

[1a sound asleep]

Lets buy the damn thing, $15,000 each, and for those who cannot afford it, we go by stealth. Then offer Borgetti a block of flats to come back and get the joint up and running again, using, wait for it, Australians. Just a dream I suppose, but how good would it be.

I said this weeks ago and everybody scoffed. We may have trouble getting enough shares available for sale at a low enough price. Even up to $2 is still value. Just keep eating away at it, like an elephant. We dont need 51% to get on to the board.

Then sell of the orange blob and recoup at last 40% of the capital. Than focus back on Qantas

[aseanaero]

If you're smart maybe you can get someone on the board for free , if the Govt can intervene on industrial action maybe they can lean on the Qantas board also

[Going Boeing]

Posted by aseanaero
If the workforce can be reduced from 35,000 Australians to 25,000 Australians and the other 10,000 jobs outsourced to Asia costs them HALF of what they are spending in OZ in simple terms they've saved about a half a billion dollars a year at a 10% return that's worth about $5 billion to the value of the company , they've doubled their money and will move on to the next investment opportunity.

The Clifford/Joyce plan doesn't stop at moving 10,000 jobs offshore - they want every job possible offshore which would mean the only Oz based jobs would be the essential customer contact staff at the terminals. I believe that more than 25,000 jobs will go which will have significant impact on the economies of many communities as well as reduced tax and superannuation available in the broader economy. The whole thing is driven by Clifford's lust for power and corporate greed by those around him.

[King William III]

I've just heard from a relative, of a person ( a friend of theirs) who HAD to get home from Perth for a funeral yesterday and was charged $1000 by Jetstar…one way!!
I've just looked up the same for tomorrow and it's $389 return OR one way.

How on earth is it legal for these clowns to ground one half of the company and then price-gouge on the other half to cover their loses????

[ohallen]

I was pleased to see that both the ASIC and ACCC dogs have been let loose on the Rat over these events by the Govt.

The fact that the Rat was able to direct passengers to Jetset and reward themselves for what they did deserves the harshest criticism. Lets see what the ACCC come up with on pricing at Jetstar because they were in the information loop and I hope the fares were pushed up before 5pm Saturday.

While they are at it, ASIC should be looking at whether institutional shareholders were as equally informed as Retail shareholders for the AGM. Every instinct in my body says they had more information and lets see if that pans out. I hope they check the personal diaries of every Rat Exec to see who they met up with in the period 18 October to the AGM as well as any linked emails.

This whole issue warrants a stringent multifront investigation and if any private equity bid arrives a Royal Commission.

If they need volunteers to help search, let me know.

[King William III]

I doubt these will stay on the front pages for long so;

Abbott denies having prior knowledge of Qantas grounding - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-01/abbott-denies-prior-qantas-grounding-knowledge/3613094)

Tony Abbott tells Parliament he 'had no prior notice'' of Qantas lock-out | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/tony-abbott-faces-serious-questions-on-qantas-lock-out/story-e6frfq80-1226182561133)

One of the comments (not mine) at the bottom of the news.com article…….
Abbots was told that Qantas "HAD" shut down at 16.45, but was he told well beforehand that they "WOULD" shut down. He accuses government of failing to "interfere" with a "business problem". If they had done so, he would have accused them of "interfering" with a "business matter" :ok:

Good to see the tide turning away from Qantas over at Murdochsville…..they obviously sway with popular opinion and Qantas are losing this PR battle badly ( guess that's why Livvy's been in hiding since her retired/grounded incident…she'd only make it even worse!!) :D

[aseanaero]

The Qantas political brawl has escalated dramatically with an extraordinary suggestion that Opposition Leader Tony Abbott had prior knowledge that Qantas was to ground its aircraft.

Mr Abbott was forced to deny the claim in Parliament, saying he heard about the grounding only a few minutes before it came into force on Saturday.

Transport Minister Anthony Albanese called a press conference to question why Mr Abbott suddenly changed his rhetoric on Friday to demand the Government intervene in the dispute.

Mr Albanese questioned whether Mr Abbott had been told about the lockout and grounding well before Qantas boss Alan Joyce told the Government at 2pm on Saturday.

Mr Joyce insisted the Qantas board only made the lockout decision on Saturday morning.

"Why did Tony Abbott change his position on Friday morning one day before Qantas says they made the decision to lock out the workforce and to shut down the airline at 5pm on Saturday?" Mr Albanese asked journalists.

And he made the extraordinary suggestion that the Opposition may have colluded with Qantas to "orchestrate" the lockout and grounding.

"Was Mr Abbott, his office or any colleagues in his party involved in an orchestrated campaign in the lead-up to this announcement with Qantas' decision they say was made on Saturday to lock out its workforce and to ground its fleet?" he asked.

If I had prior notice to what Qantas was intending I would hardly have booked myself and my family on Qantas the following day.

Tony Abbott
"What contact did Mr Abbott or his frontbench have with Mr Joyce or [Qantas chairman] Mr Clifford prior to Qantas' announcement on Saturday?"

In Question Time, Prime Minister Julia Gillard stepped up the pressure on Mr Abbott, demanding he "tell the truth" and saying he was "in cover-up mode".

Abbott denies having prior knowledge of Qantas grounding - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-01/abbott-denies-prior-qantas-grounding-knowledge/3613094)

[crewmeal]

King William it's called a captive market. if no one else is flying that route at that particular time, then they will charge what they like, in this case $mega!. Unfortunately there will be people who have to pay this price because of circumstances, which in this case will only add to the grief.

We have Ryanair in the UK who regularly rip people off for whatever reason, but people still come back for more. That's how these people survive. They don't care about anyone other than their greedy selves.

[bankrunner]

In his own social circles he's probably a hero but he won't be able to show his face at a public venue for a long long time.


Not exactly. Nobody would mind seeing him having to line up at Centrelink (or whatever became of the CES) :ok:

[King William III]

I was under the (perhaps misguided) impression it was something called price gouging which is illegal in this country? Maybe I'm wrong.

I can imaging Virgin could get away with it being a different company ( although there is no evidence so far to suggest they did anything other than offer discounted fares ) however Jetstar ARE Qantas with full knowledge of ALL the timings of this action……..that SURELY cannot be legal ??

[MACH082]

Can the two political parties stop playing school yard politics about who said what and who knew what. It's like girls gossip time at band camp.

Both political parties should be asking the hard questions towards Qantas management. The longer politicians bicker amongst themselves, the longer these so called business leaders are not held to account.

Pretty soon the witch hunt will be directed by labor towards business leaders as politicians scramble to save their seats.

I bet Abbott did know. I bet the intention was to let him know. I bet he was played. Along with the leaders of the NSW and Vic liberal party. Deals will be done and favours will be called upon regarding industrial legislation during the Liberal parties landslide election win next term.

Just as the greens forced Julie to become Juliar, Abbott will be blackmailed in regards to work choices.

Checkmate.

It's what I would do.

Ter be sure ter be sure :}

[tail wheel]

Someone is buying, big time...... (http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/companyInfo.do?by=asxCode&asxCode=QAN#closing_prices)

Or is someone baling out?

64.5 million shares traded in two days........... :confused:

[Bankstown Boy]

It must be buyer driven, as it went up on two consecutive 'down' days. If it were the other way then the share price would resemble a rock dropped down a mine shaft.

Think about it though - 65 mill shares at an average of $1.60 is 'only' just over $100m. Some would consider that a very small price to pay to cause the share price to rise, when it was forecast to fall and ultimately keep the narrative pure that Qantas is totally right.

Just a thought

[breakfastburrito]

A "ball tearer" of a session. I will endeavour to get the today's Senate question time (replayed tonight up tomorrow).

-e8Si-S_06Y

[paulg]

Makes me wonder if someone in executive management leaked to a senior shadow minister given their previous close working relationship. Not saying just speculating.

[bankrunner]

Not one of the executive management types who's been surprisingly quiet during the whole affair by any chance?

[EColi]

http://angrypucker.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/qantas-halloween-6501.jpg

[missy]

Olivia Wirth - Group Executive Government and Corporate Affairs

Qantas Board of Directors (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/board-of-directors/global/en) [at the bottom of the page - Executive Team]

http://http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/opinion/olivia-wirth-has-been-appointed-qantas-group-executive-of-government-and-corporate-affairs/story-e6frg966-1226039289362

[Kharon]

Share trading tells the story.

Glove puppet never has to get out of bed again - way to go (out) I hope. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

[ohallen]

Maybe OW is off researching the Awards presented to QF 32 crew in the UK so she can use the Spin Machine at her disposal for something worthwhile.

Naaah guess it would be hard to acknowledge and explain what they are proposing to do, so it doesn't suit their purpose at this point in time.

Shameful inconsistency.

[Roo]

Today I heard Abbott and Hockey (I think) on the news & in Parliament, questioned on prior knowledge of the grounding. Both used more or less the same line to support thier line of no prior knowledge of Saturdays shutdown, "..of course they did not know otherwise they would have changed their flight bookings."
This seems to me a weak defence. I reckon both they and QF bet on immediate Gov't/Ministerial intervention to Terminate prior to the shutdown commencing. Hence their current questions to the Govt as to why it did not act immediately and let it go onto FWA. QF for its part would have wanted and expected the immediate intervention to achieve their aim, without the bad PR and cost.
As they all expected the shutdown to be thwarted before it began, flights would have continued and no need to change flights. They cannot have it both ways.

[Amygdala1]

or Goulburn Supermax along with everyone else implicated.

[manfred]

Qantas told me of possible action: Hockey (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/qantas-told-me-of-possible-action-hockey-20111101-1mtws.html)

[gobbledock]

Well well, the stench of ****e grows stronger by the day!
Some interesting connections being unveiled. I would like to personally encourage all who are revealing some of these interesting links, morsels and nuggets to keep up the good work, keep going, get the information and the truth out into the open. Perhaps some documents, emails, diaries and other anecdotal evidence contained within mascots bowels can be 'outed' into the public domain?
Why hasn't an inquiry been ordered? Why haven't the Feds been called in? Time to subpoena phone records, emails, anything of tangible use.
Maybe AJ has bitten off more than he can chew this time? I think it is time for someone to start to examine each word uttered by QF management, politicians and any other influential supporter of QF in this saga.

By the way, and hypothetically, if a person was to use the excuse or BS story 'hey, I bought tickets to travel for my family and I weeks or days before the grounding so why would I do that if I knew the airline would be grounded', would that person(s) actually think that all of us would believe that ****e?? That would be like the criminal who buys a movie ticket, doesn't go into the movie but goes home and murders his wife and then says 'hey, it wasn't me who did it, I was at the movies between 1900 to 2130' !
No, sorry folks, as each day passes I can see the web of lies, deception and bulls#it expanding rapidly. This entire event has a smell of suspicion to it that can be smelt in Texas!

My thought is this, can't we get Senator Xenophon, messes Purvinas and Jackson, Paul Phelan, Ben Sandilands or some credible person put a series of scripted questions to those who have the stench of deceit wafting around them? Word those question so that no twisted, deflective, bullish#t indirect answers can be regurgitated. Straight answered, under oath, yes or no.

Can anyone else smell what I am smelling??

[Mr Leslie Chow]

ENT may I suggest you get in touch with AIPA and they can put you in touch maybe with the wider QF pilot group more efficiently.

PM me if you would like their details.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

My thought is this, can't we get Senator Xenophon, messes Purvinas and Jackson, Paul Phelan, Ben Sandilands or some credible person put a series of scripted questions to those who have the stench of deceit wafting around them? Word those question so that no twisted, deflective, bullish#t indirect answers can be regurgitated. Straight answered, under oath, yes or no.

Can anyone else smell what I am smelling??




I'll pinch my answer from another thread but relevant here also.

Interesting point. Now the company will almost inevitably get the Workplace Determination they were so desperately seeking, understanding the process becomes important.

A workplace determination is where a full bench of FWA formally hears supporting arguments from both sides regarding the issues in dispute. I recall writing to Qantas a letter with 61 questions regarding the announced 200 million International loss. They never answered them.

The answer to these questions and the supporting evidence will most certainly be subpoenaed in view of the full public in about a months time as part of the determination hearing. If anyone here thinks that the facts about Qantas can be hidden forever, please think again. This dispute (which is not just about 3 EA Agreements) has a long way to run yet. We won't win every battle. Not every day will be a good day. Your union Reps will make mistakes but the truth will set us all free.

[Happy Gilmore]

No wonder the Vic Premier and Ministers were so supportive of Joice last week:

Qantas signs up most of Baillieu cabinet to exclusive Chairman's Lounge | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/qantas-signs-up-most-of-baillieu-cabinet-to-exclusive-chairmans-lounge/story-fn7x8me2-1226183035734)

[Capt Kremin]

Hmmmmm ...reported in the Herald Sun?

More signs that the media worm may be turning?

[gobbledock]

Of course there is no favoritism is there?
Interesting how I have to endure economy class sh#t service and be given a muesli bar onboard, and endure having to mingle in a prehistoric departure lounge while MY tax is used to pay for a politician to sit in the Chairmans Lounge prior to them sitting in the comfy wide seats at the pointy end of the plane ?
No conflict of interest with Pollies and QF is there?
This taxpayer funded life o luxury for these elected parasites who do not pay to travel, pay rego for a car or fuel or servicing, who have gold lined credit cards, who are paid excessive amounts of money, who don't pay for phone or office use and retire early and receive life long travel benefits and perks has got to stop. Time for Australians to exercise some muscle don't you think? Citizens in the middle east are no longer bending over and taking it while the minions at the top feather their nests at the expense of those less privileged ?

Yes the trough is stocked to the hilt if you are a political bottom feeding capitalist. Disgusting vermon.

[QF94]

QANTAS after the AGM.

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff432/QF94/qantasshell.jpg

[Anulus Filler]

CALL ME CYNICAL....

27th October Herald Sun: STOP QANTAS STRIKES, TED BAILLIEU SAYS

Stop Qantas strikes, Ted Baillieu says | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/news/stop-qantas-strikes-ted-baillieu-says/story-fn32891l-1226178828639)



THEN 6 DAYS LATER....



2nd November Herald Sun:QANTAS SIGNS UP MOST OF THE BAILLIEU CABINET TO EXCLUSIVE CHAIRMANS LOUNGE

Qantas signs up most of Baillieu cabinet to exclusive Chairman's Lounge | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/qantas-signs-up-most-of-baillieu-cabinet-to-exclusive-chairmans-lounge/story-fn7x8me2-1226183035734)

Great f..king investment that one turned out to be Ted Faillieu.:mad:

[Happy Gilmore]

AND........ Dont Forget the Feds

They're still on the Qantas gravy plane | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/theyre-still-on-the-qantas-gravy-plane/story-e6frfq80-1226183077693)

[Capt Kremin]

Industrial deal may backfire on Qantas (http://www.theage.com.au/national/industrial-deal-may-backfire-on-qantas-20111101-1mtyx.html)

[TIMA9X]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5R2BUb6hTeI/TrAQK2dsrYI/AAAAAAAAAC8/kBb4s1Odtu4/s618/01-AJ-front-page-2.jpg

Top bosses' riches are undeserved


Alan Joyce, the CEO of Qantas, which has a near-monopoly over air travel in Australia, has hit the headlines with his $5 million pay packet. But he is far from the highest paid CEO in Australia.
Read more: Top bosses' riches are undeserved (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/top-bosses-riches-are-undeserved-20111101-1mttj.html#ixzz1cT6PEhW5)

There is no doubt in my mind we will see the end of Joyce and Clifford much quicker than it feels today for many of the Q staff. In the above photo we see a that jaw lock photo (again, he must hate it) and we will see it in time as his trademark photo.... now on the right we see the story


Qantas says grounding warning given


THE two main parties are accusing each other of having prior knowledge of plans by Qantas to ground its fleet and cripple the nation, while the airline says it would not have stopped flying had the government used a different section of the relevant act to terminate the dispute.
The Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott, who has been slamming the government for sending the dispute to the industrial umpire instead of terminating it immediately using special powers, found himself on the backfoot yesterday when he refused to say when he first knew Qantas was harbouring such a plan.
The government accused Mr Abbott of a cover up. It noted that he first called for government intervention on Friday, the same day the Liberal premiers of NSW and Victoria made that call, and the day before the grounding.

''Was Mr Abbott, his office or any colleagues in his party involved in an orchestrated campaign in the lead-up to this announcement?'' the Transport Minister, Anthony Albanese, asked. ''Mr Abbott is almost alone in refusing to be critical at all of Qantas's decision.''
Mr Albanese was told by the Qantas boss, Alan Joyce, at 2pm on Saturday that the fleet was to be grounded in three hours. He was told that the decision had been taken and was a fait accompli. Mr Albanese has repeatedly said that despite frequent meetings with Mr Joyce in the previous days, Mr Joyce never signalled grounding the fleet and locking out the workforce. Mr Joyce again contradicted this yesterday.

Read more: Qantas says grounding warning given (http://www.smh.com.au/national/qantas-says-grounding-warning-given-20111101-1mtya.html#ixzz1cT8nlrzM)

RP6TMxgcepI

Basically I believe as the video suggests Qantas management self inflicted the damage to itself... why, because they have embarrassed all in Canberra and the Australian public will not like another waterfront styled dispute which smashed the unions at that time, Gillard would be scared witless as she always blamed the Liberals for the heavy handed tactics used in the waterfront dispute. This time around people are a wake up to Freehills (is that how they spell it?) heavy handed style, they won't like it. Qantas can't afford to lose anymore customers after last weekends debacle... think about it.. AJ has painted himself into a corner already.

In my view, all Qantas unions must center their next action in front of these lawyers office's and name them in public, promote the line Save our Qantas, these lawyers are working to destroy Australian jobs advising AJ and LC. The lockout tactic last weekend is a good example of how these basta#ds think and work.

John Angus is the doorman,
John Angus - Freehills - The Latest Legal News, Research and Legal Profiles - Who's Who Legal (http://www.whoswholegal.com/profiles/35601/0/Angus/john-angus/)

The punters who fly with Q will not like to see what these faceless suits advised in the past get away with it again. I bet freehills advised AJ not to go on the 7.30 report twice this week.

take another look a this video, and listen again what a punter says about AJ,

YbXX-bdbzyg

a pretty good consistent example of what I have been hearing over and over again from common garden variety Australians regarding AJ and the Qantas management. One thing faceless men hate is being exposed to the real world.

I bet one of the trolls on here work for Freehills......

Lets expose them to the general public before it is too late. They can't take us all to court, the beaks will get sick of their narrow tactics.

As a rule lawyers are good for society, corporate (faceless) lawyers are different, they get paid whether their clients win or lose, just look at parliament today, both Gillard's and Abbott's lot, most lawyers were acting like little children over the Qantas issue. The funny thing is, Gillard was the one who set up FWA but at the end of the day was scared to use it as "it opened a minefield of legal issues, uncharted waters" typical lawyer speak...

People are hurting, LC's timing is not good, Dixon got away with it, took the money and ran, AJ won't be so lucky, he is not liked and he is already exposed.

[hotnhigh]

Amazing what happens in half a day. thanks for recording question time.

[teresa green]

Fellas, support at last. Richo. Check out his blog in the OZ today, and bombard his email on Sky, his show is on tonight, tell him what is really happening, I think he has a fair idea already, he has well and truly shafted Clifford and Joyce this morning, so get stuck into it, it just might be the circuit breaker we have been looking for.

[kotoyebe]

I don't know if it's possible, but can someone post a copy of Richo's blog? The Oz is a pay site now.

[teresa green]

Easy to join mate, costs you nothing for three months, so well worth joining, then its only the price of a coffee each week , $3.50. Its the only paper worth reading unless you are into all that Hollywood crap or a socialist (SMH and the Age)those papers will serve you well.

[breakfastburrito]

November 1 Senate Question time - edits.

KXJZShuUrqo


YtnszF3FoKM


xe26Z-szLbo

[Fliegenmong]

And I trust that should I join the Aust. they'll stop taking advertising revenue....double dipping!! :=

[fl610]

Time for Australians to exercise some muscle don't you think? Citizens in the middle east are no longer bending over and taking it while the minions at the top feather their nests at the expense of those less privileged ?

Apathy is a curse - but who cares? :{ :sad:

[breakfastburrito]

Did Abbott & Hockey let the cat out of the bag on last nights 7:30 report?
Abbott of course can use "I booked to fly Sunday with family" Plausible deniability. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

I smell the "script" for the lockout was something along the lines of the following. Of course this is superstition:

Step 1: Qantas "backgrounds" the lockout in the Parliment house over the past few weeks. No direct contact with the government about the issue.

Step 2: Qantas goes live with lockout threat to government, threat must be seen to be credible.

Step 3: Qantas banks on Gillard using full powers under the fair work act to terminate not just the protected bargaining period , but also the industrial agreements for the three unions.

Step 4: [contingency] Implement lockout, seek termination at FWA

Gillard didn't play by the script in step 3, so Qantas had to go live with the lockout. It would appear that somewhere someone got the wrong signal about what the government would or wouldn't do with regard to its FWA unilateral powers.

Processes from here at FWA have the potential to be extremely messy for Alan Joyce, Olivia Worth, and Qantas. I'm sure coming into the next election campaign will figure very strongly in Gillards thinking. The government can score maximum points if it can kick a "rogue employer" in the nuts. Its use of "extreme action" by various ministers already highlights this thinking.

[tail wheel]

Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011 (http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;adv=yes;orderBy=priority,title;page=0;query=Data set_Phrase%3A%22billhome%22%20ParliamentNumber%3A%2243%22;re c=3;resCount=Default)

Amends the Air Navigation Act 1920 and Civil Aviation Act 1988 to provide that an Australian airline, or a subsidiary of an Australian airline, is not issued an international aviation licence unless it provides the same wages and conditions to overseas-based flight and cabin crew operating its flights as if they were directly employed by the airline.

[bankrunner]

Is Old Ianmeadow still around, and did he have any involvement in this?

[breakfastburrito]

IO is still around and up to his neck in this:

cue to 3:25 mark

MgGDhTPgjo8

[kotoyebe]

Apparently Geoffery Thomas is about to expose an "act of sabotage" on a Qantas aircraft on David Oldfields's program on 2UE:eek:

[schlong hauler]

ESTION:
Mr Abbott, did anyone from Qantas speak to you or your office prior to Saturday about the possibility of a grounding?
TONY ABBOTT:
Look, the important thing is that the Government was warned repeatedly by Alan Joyce of the possibility of a grounding should this dispute continue. Now, the grounding of Qantas is essentially the cessation of an essential service. That’s why the Government should have taken it far more seriously, that’s why the Government should have acted sooner. Unfortunately, what we saw was a Government and a Prime Minister too scared of the faceless men of the union movement to act decisively to protect the Australian public.
QUESTION:
The question was whether your office was forewarned of the dispute. Can you answer that?
TONY ABBOTT:
Look, my office was in regular contact with Qantas. Qantas – as anyone in Parliament House would know – have basically been patrolling the corridors of Parliament House for weeks now alerting people to the seriousness of the dispute.
Thanks very much.

[gobbledock]

It seems like Joyce unleashed a huge can of Baygon, the cockroaches are running everywhere - QF management now looking for cracks to hide in, Hockey, Abbott, the Carbon Queen and co. This is prime time television at it's best. It is like watching Survivor but with the players being Corporate Australia, the Liberals, Labor, a few Independants thrown in and QF management, question is 'who will be sent to redemption island'?

Put all these players on the stand and under oath. Straight questions which require "YES or NO" answers.

I won't harp on with the same old rhetoric, and as for proof of the stench of 'mates rates' in all this, refer to other posts (especially the links) on this page by Happy Gilmore, Capt Kremin and TIMA9X. Also Tailwheel's link to Senator Xenophon's proposed amendment is woth mulling over. I give the Senator full credit on his recent performaces, he would appear to be probably the only Australian politician that acts in the interest of the servants a politican is meant to serve.

I say heads need to roll over this, and the more QF heirachy and politicians that are rolled the better, so start scrambling cockroaches.

Is Old Ianmeadow still around, and did he have any involvement in this? 'All for one and one for all'! Mates rates and the lure of easy money and a never ending gravy train would make it overwhelmingly likely that the answer to that question would be 'yes'.

[73to91]

Qantas – as anyone in Parliament House would know – have basically been patrolling the corridors of Parliament House for weeks now
Why was that Tony? Who do you mean by QANTAS, Tony?

The person who has been MIA since Friday has been found.
Long period of industrial uncertainty possible, say lawyers (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/long-period-of-industrial-uncertainty-possible-say-lawyers-20111101-1mtyh.html)

What was she doing in the Press Gallery? showing support for her former boss perhaps?

[gobbledock]

What was she doing in the Press Gallery? showing support for her former boss perhaps? And who is she speaking to on the phone, her old boss, Slugger, da wee man, a photocopier and shredder repair man, a hairdresser?

[SimonBl]

73to91, priceless. She doesn't look too happy being snapped, does she?

[gobbledock]

She doesn't look too happy being snapped, does she?
That is actually her happy look !!!

[adsyj]

She is looking for her old job back.

Rats deserting a sinking ship anyone.

[denabol]

Once again it looks like Ben has tried to answer the Joyce cheer leaders who are claiming Singapore Airlines Scoot airline vindicates the Asianisation of Qantas.

Scoot, Singapore Airlines, Qantas, and its Asia ambitions | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/11/02/what-does-scoot-mean-to-qantas-jetstar-and-asia/)

Here are some quotes now that I've worked out how to do them

It is not very bright for analysts to push the line that the revelation of a custard colored paint job for the Singapore Airlines low cost longer range brand Scoot is a vindication of the Qantas infatuation with Asia.
That’s a bit like saying ‘Duh, Asia is full of people who are getting richer so we need to be there.’


Simple minded arguments about how everything is cheaper in China and thus we should all shut down international trade and retreat into some sort of jingoistic village economy with zero population growth, and apply punitive protection tariffs to make Australia strong (somehow) is a throw back to the Black Jack McEwen era in sophisticated trade policy (look him up) which was in vogue shortly before Menzies made the candles flicker in the RSL clubs by talking up the need to sell stuff to the Japanese.
The real issue concerning Qantas and its Asia strategies is not the obvious merits of trying to unlock opportunities in a huge and expanding market but its real intention, which is to break organized labor, dump what bean counters see as the excessive costs of excellence in Qantas flight standards, and retreat from a Qantas international business that has been primarily compromised by management incompetence.
If this management of Qantas can’t apply itself to glaring deficiencies in its fleet, network and product decisions what hope does it have in setting itself up in Asia to muscle in on the premium quality intra-Asia turf of Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Asiana, Korean Airlines and others?


There's a lot more in there too. I was pretty disappointed with the rest of the media reports on this, including Business Spectator, which for a while was looking like it has finally worked out what was really going on.

[peuce]

The Board and Executive Management
Qantas Airways

Dear Sirs,

We, all Australians, as your landlords, wish to formally advise you that you are hereby evicted from your lease of the Qantas brand and we will be seeking alternative tenants.

The Qantas brand was leased to you, so that you could use it to make a profit for your shareholders. However, in return for that priviledge, you were required to comply with a number of conditions. Those requirements included maintaining the Qantas brand in good condition and order.You were also forbidden to remove the Qantas brand, and its associated national assets, from it current location.

We therefore serve this eviction notice on the following grounds:


We believe that you have not maintained the Qantas brand in good order. The brand has slipped significantly in recognition and emminence, both in the eyes of most of your landlords and in the International arena. Your most recent action of callously closing down the brand has caused irrepairable global damage to the asset. The actions were certainly not in line with the Spirit of Australia.



We believe that you have commenced a program of re-locating the Qantas assets. The affected assets include infrastructure such as workshops, employment opportunities in flight crew, cabin crew and engineering, supply opportunities for Australian industry ... and most significantly, the intellectual property that was encapsulated in the brand's engineering capabilities. The sum result of this re-location exercise has been a deterioration in skill and operational performance ... which has, in turn, accelerated the downturn in the value of the Qantas brand.


As landlords, our responsibility is to maintain our asset. As you are obviously about to expand your re-location exercise, with the potential for more damage to the asset, we have no other option than to terminate your lease.

Yours faithfully

All Australians

[teresa green]

Things are starting to change, some very senior journo's are starting to smell a rat (excuse the pun) and a story, a very big story, they are starting to realise that something is rotten in QF, and are probably not easily bought off with a first class ticket, they are like rats up a drain pipe when they are on to something. Time to buy the popcorn lads and girls and settle into your favourite chair, and watch the fun. This is going to be huge. My source, a very senior journo, who is in the CBR press gallery, and is VERY curious. Meanwhile keep those emails going to Richo. Richo might have just beaten them to it.

[Annulus Filler]

As a Proud Qantas employee for more than 20 years, I am going to enforce my own democratic protest without instruction from my Union.

I am imposing an Overtime Lockout on myself until I feel a time I need to remove it.

And just to rub the salt in, I didn't have to ring anyone.

As this is my ONLY option, I wish to apologize to my wife for spending more time with her than usual.

Please feel free to join me.

Save Our Qantas

[T28D]

There is history of this sort of lockout and the ensuing capitulation of the unions

Robe River 1986 Lockout 10 weeks

The process started in 1986 at Robe River where productivity had been falling, and the owners found they were paying an increasing proportion of its workforce to be nothing more than full time union agitators. Initiating the reform took great courage on the part of the firm's management, especially its CEO Charles Copeman. In addition to desperate and vicious union attempts to maintain themselves as the virtual management of the facility, the local supervisory staff had little stomach to fight, and rival firms (including BHP) did not want the system threatened. Copeman also confronted intense denigration from ALP Governments in both Western Australia and Canberra.
In addition Robe River faced the hostility of an Industrial Relations Commission guarding the myth that it was the arbitrator of workforce arrangements even where it simply endorsed lavish conditions the unions had extracted. The Robe River dispute did much to undermine the old industrial relations framework and laid the groundwork for the vast improvements in industrial relations seen in Australia over the past decade. From the dispute, which lasted over a year, Robe achieved a doubling of labour productivity. CRA followed suit in its own Pilbara mines and achieved similar gains. The Pilbara, once notorious for massive overmanning and union demarcation disputes, has, until the recent dispute, become an island of industrial peace and prosperity.

[73to91]

US Airlines have lost the plot, ;) next thing they'll do all maintenance of US based aircraft within the US :ok:


US Airways said yesterday it hired 400 workers at call centres in North Carolina, Arizona and Nevada as part of a union agreement to bring back work previously done outside of the United States.

The airline said the new jobs meet a requirement under its agreement with the Airline Customer Service Employee Association - CWA and IBT to handle general reservations sales calls originating in the United States in US call centers.

Call centres in Winston-Salem, North Carolina; Phoenix; and Reno, Nevada, are getting new workers. US Airways also has a call centre in Liverpool, England, which handles calls from consumers in international locations.


Read more: US Airways hires 400 in agreement to return offshore jobs (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/us-airways-hires-400-in-agreement-to-return-offshore-jobs-20111102-1mup5.html#ixzz1cVHwUueR)

[Kangaroo Court]

The management want the aircraft maintained under the supervision of their own staff and the US regulator, because the work being done was so shoddy. They almost want the unions to win the mx side of the argument.

Much like the fallout from staples being pinned through the Emergency Exit Lighting of QF Aircraft in offshore maintenance.

DO NOT forget the engineers in their plight to keep OUR (ie: Australian pasengers or those we would like to trade with), passengers safe over large expanses of ocean, many thousands of miles from bean counters who clearly do not care.

Union solidarity! One voice to speak ONLY through elected leadership. SAFETY is the biggest issue. NOBODY can duplicate the Australian traditions of hard work, tenacity, leadership, confidence, pride and sophistication with dealing with increasingly complex aircraft when automation and safety systems FAIL!!

DO NOT TRUST imitators of your refined product that can NEVER be duplicated!!

YOU ARE WORTH EVERY PENNY OF YOUR EFFORTS AND EVEN MORE!!

[neville_nobody]

Looks like Alan is off to tea and biccies session with a few senators.....

Joyce to face grilling on grounding from Senate
Matt O'sullivan
November 2, 2011
THE chief executive of Qantas, Alan Joyce, will face his first grilling at the hands of federal politicians since his shock decision to ground the airline when he turns up in Canberra for a Senate inquiry on Friday.

The airline went into damage control yesterday as it attempted to patch up relations with the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, and the Transport Minister, Anthony Albanese.

As Ms Gillard renewed her attacks on Qantas, its government relations boss, Olivia Wirth, made a flying visit to Canberra in an effort to repair a relationship which insiders now describe as toxic. ''The government is furious from the top to the very bottom,'' an insider said.

Advertisement: Story continues below
Mr Joyce's appearance at the Senate inquiry into a bill proposed by independent senator Nick Xenophon and Greens leader Bob Brown aimed at reining in Qantas's aggressive overseas expansion plans has taken on extra significance since the airline's unprecedented grounding of its fleet at the weekend.

The hearing, led by Labor senator Glenn Sterle, is likely to question Mr Joyce in detail about whether his decision to ground the airline was made before Saturday.

It will be Mr Joyce's first visit to Canberra since the grounding. Although there is no support in government or opposition ranks for the legislation, Mr Joyce can expect a

frosty reception in Canberra after giving government ministers just three hours' notice on Saturday of the grounding.

Despite the bitter relations with the government, investors continued to interpret Fair Work Australia's decision to terminate a lockout and industrial action as a victory for Qantas. Shares in the airline, which resumed full services yesterday, defied a weak market to close up 1.75¢ at $1.63.

Merrill Lynch estimates Qantas will have to spend $10 million on its ''recovery phase'', which is likely to include fare reductions, more flexible tickets and bonus loyalty points to win back customers. That is on top of at least $110 million in costs from the grounding and industrial action.

Yesterday, officials from Qantas and the Australian and International Pilots Association had their first day of negotiations since the workplace umpire terminated industrial action and the airline's lockout early on Monday morning.

The pilots' union said it would be sticking to its demands for job-security clauses to be included in a new contract, despite it being unpalatable for Qantas. The aircraft engineers' union is to begin negotiations with Qantas on Monday.



Read more: Joyce to face grilling on grounding from Senate (http://www.smh.com.au/business/joyce-to-face-grilling-on-grounding-from-senate-20111101-1mtyg.html#ixzz1cVMIIVSY)

[Kangaroo Court]

Good Luck Mr Joyce!! You're gonna need it!!!


You've pissed off every businessman, honey mooner, tourist and medical provider that requires your services in the country.

IDIOT!!!!

[gobbledock]

As a Proud Qantas employee for more than 20 years, I am going to enforce my own democratic protest without instruction from my Union.
I am imposing an Overtime Lockout on myself until I feel a time I need to remove it.
And just to rub the salt in, I didn't have to ring anyone.
As this is my ONLY option, I wish to apologize to my wife for spending more time with her than usual.
Please feel free to join me.
Save Our Qantas Count me in ! I hereby formally give notice to myself, under my own instructions, to do the following:

I hereby authorize myself to desist immediately undertaking and performing any overtime.
I hereby authorize myself to not extend my rostered hours, duty hours, any hours above what is employee policy. Should this mean an aircraft is grounded overnight and considerable costs incurred against the company, and significant disruptions casued to service and passengers then I must accept that it is actually not my fault in the first place.
I hereby authorize myself to not 'go that extra mile' when fatigued or sick and still go to work. I agree with myself to take my sick leave, as per workplace agreement, to ensure my health is maintained to a safe level.
I hereby authorize myself to not go above and beyond my employement conditions. I will not offer any additional or extra public service than required, I will not actively seek solutions to problems that could save the company money if it is not written in my award.
I hereby authorize myself to no longer defend the actions of managements decision making strategies.
I hereby authorize myself to seek the benefit of myself first before the companies needs,in line with my own personal moral compass.
I can confirm that I have undertaken these actions while not being coerced or by any other entity, union, or universal factor.

[breakfastburrito]

The process started in 1986 at Robe River where productivity had been falling, and the owners found they were paying an increasing proportion of its workforce to be nothing more than full time union agitators

You are right, it is about labour productivity. The fundamental difference is this "productivity issue" is entirely due to managements own actions.

The transfer of flying to subsidiaries without permitting the transfer of the labour, despite a Memorandum Of Understanding (MOU) between the parties that pilots could transfer on the conditions of the subsidiary. Despite the MOU, the vast majority pilots were denied the right to transfer, and instead were assigned large amounts of accrued annual leave (which in many cases they were not permitted to take in the period 1998~2004, particularly on the 767) and Long Service Leave.

The certified agreement on the longhaul aircraft permits the full 900 stick hours to utilized, and in many cases crew were doing their annual max on the 744. Domestically it is a bit more difficult, simply because the award was never designed to be used for short sector flying. AIPA negotiated a separate agreement to operate Australian Airlines, which I am lead to believe management had no issue with efficiency. By all accounts everyone was satisfied with this arrangement. The pilots have been willing to negotiate as necessary - They negotiated reduced flying for crew to help the company. This favour was repaid by handing the savings directly to Geoff Dixon to boost his payout because of a tax law change.

The issue is one of using the longhaul pilots as the bunnies to help with the management agenda of destroying the international operation. Management stuffed up monumentally with it fleet choices & networks. Rather than growing their slice while the whole pie got bigger, they did nothing and so Qantas's slice shrunk relative to other operators. Now they claim its the fault of the pilots which make up 4% of the costs. Do you really believe that?

Now they want to move to Asia, just adding another few degree's of difficulty. This whole dispute is to mask & deflect from managements poor performance.

[david1300]

@peuce, who said: "..As landlords, our responsibility is to maintain our asset. As you are obviously about to expand your re-location exercise, with the potential for more damage to the asset, we have no other option than to terminate your lease.

Yours faithfully

All Australians"

What arrogance. A quick poll of 5 people here in our office shows that 5 out of 5 think you are talking out of your anal orifice. You certainly don't speak on our behalf.

[QF94]

@peuce, who said: "..As landlords, our responsibility is to maintain our asset. As you are obviously about to expand your re-location exercise, with the potential for more damage to the asset, we have no other option than to terminate your lease.

Yours faithfully

All Australians"

What arrogance. A quick poll of 5 people here in our office shows that 5 out of 5 think you are talking out of your anal orifice. You certainly don't speak on our behalf.

David1300,

we have discussed issues before and very much agree to disagree. There are those, the minority, who unfortunately hold the majority of shares in all facets of the investment world that would like nothing more than to shut down a company because it is in difficulty, but pushed over the edge by management that decided to have a Saturday afternoon hissy fit and cost not only its own company money, but every other business in the country and the world relying on QF's business.

This one action alone of shutting down an airline without notice, far outweighs any pay increases that were being sought by the three combined unions over the period of their respective agreements. As for job security, management have just given themselves an uppercut and will hopefully be ejected from the board at 40,000ft.

If all the energy of the management in fighting its workforce was put to producing a better relationship with them and finding ways to get better productivity out of the workforce, we wouldn't have the mess we have. If the money spent by management fighting its workforce was put to paying them an increase of 3%-5%, people would continue to work, knowing they will have a job in a few years time. When uncertainty and undue stress is placed on a company's workforce and then threatened with a lockout with no pay, that does not bode well with the staff.

The only people to gain job security from QF management's poor decision last Saturday will be the teams of lawyers and barristers barracking for each of their teams and arguing their cases, meanwhile, passengers have deserted the airline, the airline will continue bleed even further and job losses will be more imminent than ever. And for what?

Apart from the actual $ losses to QANTAS due this dispute, their reputation I believe is not beyond repair, but far from it and will take many years to recover, but in the absence of the current board of QANTAS.

I don't believe that the 5 people in your office are an overwhelming majority of the country's opinion on the matter, and it is obviously 5 like-minded people's opinion in one office.

I also am not speaking on your behalf.

[TIMA9X]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XULhN7NMqv0/TrCmy0jdutI/AAAAAAAAADA/AQWuTRIyGgM/s640/01-AJ-freehills.jpg

Things are starting to change, some very senior journo's are starting to smell a rat (excuse the pun) and a story, a very big story, they are starting to realise that something is rotten in QF, and are probably not easily bought off with a first class ticket,Oh yes, That's for sure.........the press smell a rat alright and so do the public.... Gillard will be forced to side with the customers er, sorry voters.... AJ LC have bitten off far more than they can chew.....

So much happened last weekend, there is a lot to digest... have a look at this video again, it reflects the mood of the people, otherwise Fairfax wouldn't run with it... the momentum is running against LC... and his board mates... no doubt about it now, sadly the public will vote against them with their feet because they see no loyalty to Australia from these board members for supporting AJ and his heavy handed IR dealings.

I will say it again, the only way this can be resolved is to remove AJ from his post. The damage is done, the tactics are a PR disaster for brand Qantas.

YRKv9Y7jzeE

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[peuce]

David 1300,

You are correct, I don't speak for everyone and I just put forward my position ... to make it public. I would love to see your position in black and white.

In the end, it will be up to Australians, as a whole, to decide whether to allow the current Qantas direction to continue ... or not.

If the majority of Australians are happy with the current Qantas direction, then they must also be happy with the consequences .... you can't have both.

But, for the life of me, I can't understand how a majority of Australians would be happy with a very limited number of shareholders lining their pockets ... at the expense of the draining of national expertise, employment opportunities, infrastructure, skills, capability and assets.

Can you please explain to me ... what is in it for 99% of Australians?
What am I missing?

[C441]

Despite raising the question in a number of forums and emails, I am yet to get a reasonable answer as to why it was necessary to immediately ground the entire airline. (Other than a perceived threat to the safety and wellbeing of those apparently otherwise respected employees. :hmm: )

Does Alan Joyce honestly believe that he could not have achieved the same FWA result, in virtually the same time-frame, if he had announced the grounding and lockout were to occur at some point in the future; in 72 hours or in a week?

It only took 12 hours or so for FWA to convene and around 36 hours to reach a result, but in that time the damage to the brand was done.

Why do it, knowing that the impact on the brand would be, at best, harmful?

(I know this has been discussed at length in a roundabout fashion but I still can't get a logical answer.:ugh: )

[peuce]

C441,

Really?


Impact
Impact
Impact


Officially?
Because it wasn't safe to operate the airline with stressed staff

Unofficially?
To prevent sabotage by Staff

[aseanaero]

I hereby authorize myself to not 'go that extra mile'

That's sad , as that's what makes Qantas great , staff that actually give a rats, but understandable.

I guess by demoralising staff they get what they want , more excuses to shut you down.

Please don't have an accident in the next few months due to maintenance or pilot error , then the Qantas brand will really be finally and totally trashed.




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