MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.

[Gate_15L]

Your all getting played!

AJ is about to pull off a brilliant union busting move not seen since the likes of Frank Lorenzo and Contential, short of calling QANTAS bankrupt....

The Pollies won't care, all they want to see is QANTAS back in the air with minimal disruption. The timing is impeccable, Melbourne Cup coming hard and fast and several leaders/delegations from Heads of Commonwealth nations in town in Perth.... all a neat side show for the world to see...

He's pretty much got the media on his side.. public perception is that this is about pay.. NOT job security.
QANTAS won't fold, not with 3 Billion in the bank,

By rescinding your legal avenues to Industrial action, AJ will win...
What can be done about it? Not much.. except maybe vote with your feet, mass resignations.... a hell of a play, but so it grounding 108 aircraft worldwide.

[QF94]

From this you'll see I am like many others - I am driven by a price/value/quality equation, and Qantas no longer comes out near best. Without people like me buying tickets. people like you won't have a job. It's that simple. Price yourselves out of the market, and the market will move on without you, or your employer, or Joyce. His successor will be more hard-line, and so on until Qantas, in whatever form it is then, can survive. And it will probably be without you, and your unions, and it won't matter a single jot that people will call it 'un-Australian'. Let's face it - it will be as Australian as Vegemite.

From you above statement, you are an Australian employed in Australia? Just to put me in the picture, what industry are you in? No specifics, just an industry. If you're based here selling a product/service, I then become like you. Without people like me buying your product/service, people like you won't have a job. And so the merry-go-round spins.

Questions:
A - what do people hope to achieve by becoming abusive, calling management criminals, etc? (The only answer I have at the moment is that it shows the level of mindless drivel that some people spout).

I see. The board having full knowledge during the AGM yesterday of the events that unfolded today, misleading their shareholders AFTER all their resolutions were passed is not a criminal act? Mr Joyce getting his 71% pay increase with the knowledge that he was going to bludgeon the travelling public 24 hours later is not a criminal act. The board creating a $20million a day cost to the company due to their industrial action? Locking out workers that weren't involved in any dispute is not a criminal act?

B - How do strikers think or believe that they will get a favourable outcome by crippling the organization that employs them?

I believe Mr Joyce is the one that crippled the airline today with less than 3 hours notice to the federal transport minister. We didn't strike. They even called back aircraft that were lined up for take off back to the terminal today and have all the passengers and their baggage offloaded. The pilots, engineers and baggage handlers, members of those bad unions did as they were told. They most probably had to act against their will to carry out the orders of the management that grounded the airline in a wildcat fashion.

C - Do the strikers/unions think that the short-lived feeling of satisfaction they may get if AJ is replaced will last them long enough when they are faced with the next hard b*st*rd that is appointed to do what needs to be done?

Now that the scene has been set. There will never be another CEO/board member trusted as far as they can be kicked. There is still resentment for Geoff Dixon, but now the current CEO is the one in the sights.

D - And will that feeling of satisfaction pay their mortgages and childrens school fees when the crippled entity they once worked for manages to survive and recover facing the global inevitably?

Either way, losing a few hours/days wages or losing your job to be offshored for the likes of you who are price/value/quality driven. I don't know or care what you earn, but when the cost of living is rising faster than your wages, and believe me 3% doesn't cover the increase, you need to try and keep up. Companies want globalised wages for the workers. How about globalised cost of living?

PS - how many of you watch the news on Australian made televisions, or search the internet on Australian made computers, while wearing your asian-made clothes, eating food produced by Australian-owned companies? I could go on, but I won't. You aren't the solution - you are just now facing the problem and the reality that has hit much of the rest of Australia in the last 30 years. A country of less than 25m people is not very significant in world terms, no matter how much you or I wish it were. Fortress Australia/Qantas does not exist.

The answer to much of the above will be zero, with the exception of the food. I still have a choice with this. It may be a bit more expensive, and I mean maybe only 10% more, but I am supporting an Australian farmer. What's left of them. Why is this? Because we have let Australian jobs go overseas, growing other economies, while we are shrinking our own. This is exactly what is happening to QANTAS today.

For a country of less than 25million people, we sure have the ability to be self-sufficient. We have all the natural resources we need, and we have the know-how to make it happen. Sure we need to trade with other countries, but we don't need to sell out to them or give them our jobs. Maybe we should adopt their protection policies. Asia certainly has protection policies.

I trust I have addressed your questions. Maybe not to your liking, but I have addressed them in the least.

[ejectx3]

Can't be bothered David. Try the most basic research into the claims..

It's all in these forums...

[Anulus Filler]

Hearing at FWA has been called back. Prepare the vasoline.

[im sparticus]

Wall Street - Gordan Gekko You're All Pretty Much ****** - by TheLawman49 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Veh9kblE_xI)

[ozangel]

Dom Knight - one of the chaser guys, came up with this gem:

Sack Joyce and put hero pilot Richard de Crespigny at the helm. Fixing this dispute's easier than landing that A380, surely?

FWA recalled as prev said by AF.

Speaking of AF - Air France Cabin Crew going on strike too.

[itsjustme]

Hey is this meeting at FWA going on "NOW" as I sit here at 0020 EST ???

[stewser89]

Hate to say it but 'Duh'

This always was about headline grabbing by Mr. Joyce and trying to get the government to intervene. The question is what is the damage done by this move? Far more i'd wager than the IA.

[stewser89]

Guess mr Joyce felt that his pile of death threats wasn't big enough.

[PyroTek]

itsjustme: Affirm. Twitter (http://twitter.com/#%21/marshall_amelia)

[whatever6719]

QF94, if there was such a thing here on pprune as a Respect Rating, you have definitely earned one from me.

What a great post!!!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

In FWA, should have brought my sleeping bag.

[ozangel]

Is this the first time in almost 100 years QF has (by management decision) voluntarily grounded itself? What is the longest period the flying rat has been on the ground?

[Kipper101]

Hi, Will this have much of an effect on Australia Post Airmail to USA or do they use a different fleet?

[rudderless1]

Sue and Ians tissues may make a good pillow for a rest!:8

[1a sound asleep]

Air Mail to USA will be fine

Just heard that Etihad/Virgin are looking at flying in some spare A340 fleet

I reckon it will all be over in a few days. QF are losing $25M a day whilst they ground the fleet. That cant last long

[Kipper101]

Thanks 1a, hope it all gets worked out quickly for you guys

[mattsd]

Well done Alan Joyce. It's about time someone stood up to the unions/association and their 1970's thinking. If it takes stopping business to bring it to a head, so be it.

In a global market place global salaries apply. Australian unions needs to stop looking at the past, wake up to the fact that the world has moved on and become international.

Competing in a global marketplace needs comparative salaries. Take it or find another job. There are plenty out there.

[stewser89]

And the global cost of living comes from

[Al E. Vator]

Yeah bloody Unions. They shot JFK, caused global warming and La Nina.:rolleyes:

Anyhow, back to the news....

[David75]

I'm sure that everyone is taking their fatigue management seriously.

If for example the airline was to announce flights resuming that the pilots had had suitable sleep - would be shame if there were no pilots fit to fly , due to stress caused by the company, when the company wanted them.

[ozangel]

Ok, a little bit of education for those who blame the big scary "unions".

Unions are NOT FACELESS.

Infact, the face of any UNION is the FACE of EVERY member - the staff.

So to all those liberal party scaremongers - you are not fighting faceless labor party hacks/unions, you are fighting the miserable yet proud, poor yet hopeful, abused yet willing - face of EVERY MEMBER.

These people have a vested interest in the future of the company. The institutional shareholders and the board - have little interest.

UNIONS do not exist without their members. In the same way Qantas does not exist without its staff.

This fight involves many of the QANTAS STAFF, saying enough is enough!

This fight has resulted in the people with everything to gain, gambling on the future of those who have everything to lose.

The government are more worried about their re-election chances than the best interest of the public and Qantas staff. Joyce has both forced the hand of Government, and the hand of his staff - the only positive result will be his demise.

I'm not a qantas worker, but I do have shares.

[ozangel]

go for your life c173.

[itsjustme]

Apparently a mate of mine heard or read a poll was taken whereby a 1000 random people in the street as to thier opinions of who is to blame in all this mess. The outcome.....67% respondants "non employees" believed QF management is up to no good and feathering thier own nests.

Sounds to me that these 670 odd people may very well be earmarked for immediate recruitment by management as it is strongly believed they will blend in superbly with existing employees....

[aveng]

Seriously, WTF do Qantas management think is going to happen when (if) this is all over - everyone will happily go back to work like nothing ever happened?

This is the end of Qantas - I, for one will be studying the "SEEK" form guide. It is a hostile, mind sucking, soul destroying workplace.:( :ugh:

[Gigaboomer]

mattsd, and don't forget global safety, think Garuda etc.

[itsjustme]

Don't fret fellas

[RIVER1]

Have been underwater with my VBA shares all year but last month doubled up to average down on share price.May start making money next week.:cool:

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Re. the list of things that the AGM and the Government didn't hear about, add the happenings in Vietnam, where it seems that likely that Qantas has done its investment.
By Vietnam Government edict, Jetstar Pacific majority shareholding and control has passed to Vietnam Airlines.
So much for the much vaunted strategy of having only a minority share in "the future of Qantas".
Tootle pip!!

[bandit2]

Seems AJ never made it to these Service Quality meetings as a student. This is what happens when you put a little gay man, with a huge ego in power, coupled with arrogant control freak in LC. Disgraceful!!! AJ you think terminating the industrial action at FWA will give our customers trust in our product for the future? This is going to take years to repair. Thats if we make it! I`m glad your not Australian but LC & the Board, you are. I hope Karma bites you on the arse big time.

[Metro man]

Unfortunately the unions played games by announcing work stoppages and then calling them off at the last minute, too late damage done but no come back on them as they didn't actually go on strike.

International and domestic are as different as chalk and cheese, domestic compete only with Virgin on the same playing field, ie depreciation rates on aircraft, work place health and safety, award rates of pay, union membership etc. They have done a reasonable job and retain their position as market leader.

Internationally it's a totally different ball game. Back in 1976 QF had a 46% share, 1996 it was 39%, ten years ago 35% and today less than 20%. Asian and Middle Eastern competators play by different rules. The one area QF had a big advantage in was it's reputation for quality and safety, this has been trashed by poor business decisions resulting in a fleet of geriatric B744s flying around with a known engine problem.

There is no longer any reason to pay the premium Qantas need to charge over other airlines due to their higher cost base. Passengers voted with their feet and who can blame them with Singapore/Emirates offering nice new aircraft, better service, easy connections through their hubs and lower fares.

If Qantas international isn't going to end up with an unsustainable single figure percentage of the market things have to radically change. Costs need to come down and product needs to improve. Would sensible decisions taken years ago have avoided this ? Absolutely, B777s properley maintained with a good onboard experience, costs trimmed where necessary and the business could have competed and remained profitable.

Any instrument rated pilot knows the advantage of making a small correction early on and keeping the needles centred, Qantas have just about gone out of tolerance and need a major correction or a missed approach is imminant.

[Xcel]

Maybe he was saying he's a little "happy" man...

This is an easy fix... I may be dreaming buts let's just say.

Aj sacked
Board investigated for breaches to corporations act, qantas sales act, etc.
Crisis meeting
New board and CEO appointed
Ebas resolved with clause for job security
A 1.5 billion dollar facelift including new aircraft and aggressive advertising strategies taken.

[TIMA9X]

Qantas CEO has 'gone mad' say pilots (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-ceo-has-gone-mad-say-pilots-20111029-1mpkp.html)Qantas CEO has 'gone mad' say pilots

AIPA vice president Richard Woodward said the move was "premeditated, unnecessary and grossly irresponsible".
"Alan Joyce is holding a knife to the nation's throat," Captain Woodward said.
Advertisement: Story continues below
"No-one predicted this, because no one thought Alan Joyce was completely mad.
"This is a stunning overreaction. It is straight-up blackmail.
"I knew he was trying to kill Qantas, but I didn't know he wanted to do it this quickly.
"This is a grave and serious situation and the board should move to sack Mr Joyce immediately. This is the saddest day of my 25 years with Qantas."
He said AIPA's industrial action has been limited to making brief, positive in-flight announcements and wearing red ties.
"In response to this, Mr Joyce has now locked out every pilot working for Qantas. This is nothing short of crazy behaviour,"

Read more: Qantas CEO has 'gone mad' say pilots (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-ceo-has-gone-mad-say-pilots-20111029-1mpkp.html#ixzz1cBT4oDtM)
Captain Woodward is right on message here, and this is the message the public will in time pick up on. AJ is the one who will come out of this badly along with LC in the end game if everyone stays cool.

FWA is a complicated mess for Joe punter, Joe will show little interest in what goes on behind the scenes, all Joes is interested in is getting from A to B if he still has a booking, AJ has completely messed that up for Joe.... Joe will blame him.

I believe metro man made a very valid point in his last post,

Internationally it's a totally different ball game. Back in 1976 QF had a 46% share, 1996 it was 39%, ten years ago 35% and today less than 20%. Asian and Middle Eastern competators play by different rules. The one area QF had a big advantage in was it's reputation for quality and safety, this has been trashed by poor business decisions resulting in a fleet of geriatric B744s flying around with a known engine problem.

There is no longer any reason to pay the premium Qantas need to charge over other airlines due to their higher cost base. Passengers voted with their feet and who can blame them with Singapore/Emirates offering nice new aircraft, better service, easy connections through their hubs and lower fares.
What metro man says here I think many of us on here agree with already, this mess was created by the Q management not the staff.

This is message, poor decision making.

[TIMA9X]

http://images.smh.com.au/2011/10/29/2739338/art-boxingqantas-420x0.jpg

MAKE no bones about it, Qantas's strategy to neutralise the power of the unions representing long-haul pilots, aircraft engineers and ground crews has been long in the planning. It even draws into the dispute workers who have no part.


Pilots who fly aircraft in Australia are not involved in the battle, yet Alan Joyce will ground the domestic fleet with the international one.
Since taking the reins from Geoff Dixon three years ago, Joyce and his executive team have been flying towards this confrontation with key parts of its workforce. They will have the backing of Qantas's chairman, Leigh Clifford, who earned a reputation for playing hardball with unions as boss of the mining giant Rio Tinto.


But the timing is awful.


The Labor government will be severely embarrassed by these drastic steps in the midst of a gathering of world leaders. Qantas now runs the risk of turning many in cabinet against it, even those who may have been ambivalent about the merits of both sides. And, it is vital for Qantas to have the government on side.
In the pilots' strike in 1989, which was a long time brewing, some contingency plans were able to be made by the government, such as calling in the RAAF and allowing international airlines to carry traffic domestically.
This time, Qantas has given no advance warning.


The government will now force a resolution. Australia depends on aviation like almost no other country. While Virgin Australia, Jetstar and Tiger Airways can fill some of the gap, the grounding of the Flying Kangaroo will bring many businesses to a grinding halt.


But even with a resolution, it will leave a toxic legacy within Qantas as it embarks on its most aggressive push into Asia, where it wants to set up subsidiary airlines employing workers on lower pay rates and conditions than their Australian counterparts.

Joyce and the Qantas board have embarked on high-risk poker.

Read more: Flying Kangaroo turns into the Boxing Kangaroo (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/flying-kangaroo-turns-into-the-boxing-kangaroo-20111029-1mpol.html#ixzz1cBefqOWG)



AJ, LC and board are really heading for trouble, they have indeed taken all the staff and customers as hostages. Even Tiger must be jumping with joy with the free gift from AJ, new customers!

[opalops]

Chaser QANTAS Ad - YouTube (http://youtu.be/6WSJop5sG2c)

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Do we know if trading (QAN Shares) will be halted or not?? J* and Qlink still flying so maybe not.

SN

[Squeaks]

Do we know if trading (QAN Shares) will be halted or not?? J* and Qlink still flying so maybe not.

SN

Qantas currently shown as 'delisted' on my broker's site :ooh:

[tail wheel]

Nothing on the ASX site about "de-listing"? How can they be delisted?

It is a "significant event" and requires reporting to the ASX, which will probably lead to a halt in share trading.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

tw
They won't be de-listed but it is normal for the board to suspend trading whilst a decision that may markedly affect the share price is made and communicated to the public. They can only stop trading for so long though. Could be a bargain if it comes way down from where it is.

SN

[B772]

History will show that the decision to ground QF was a big mistake just as the decision by the pilots to resign was in 1989. I just hope the outcome for all concerned is not as bad.

[denabol]

Sandilands is calling it interval between acts in the Qantas theatre of the absurd.

He has pulled apart some of the figures and claims.

Qantas grounding case takes a break as travel havoc persists | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/10/30/interval-time-at-the-qantas-theatre-of-the-absurd/)

Don't know whether its related, but just after sunrise I had to drive a sort distance on the Hume freeway near here and the road traffic was really busy southbound. Punters heading to the Melbourne Cup?

[Takan Inchovit]

Think I might just go out to Longreach and start another mail run.

[Miraz]

Trading wouldn't be halted as the announcement was made whilst the market was closed, but I'm surprised that there has been no announcement made to shareholders via the ASX.

Given the lack of information disclosed to shareholders at the AGM, I should probably not be shocked.

Other flag carriers have successfully established remote hubs, and built successful businesses outside of their traditional markets without managing to alienate their workforce, passengers, general public, government and the associated brand damage in the process.

It's a pity that the current QF management team don't display the same enthusiasm for managing the airline that they currently have vs the one that the accountants and consultants have dreams about.

Best of luck to those caught in the cross-fire...

[Sunfish]

Watch for a takeover bid for Qantas to appear very shortly.

As someone said, airlines are a public shareholders nightmare; but of course if you are a private investor, and can buy an airline for a song, what is not to like, especially if the Qantas brand comes with it?

The APA boyze were prepared to pay $5.60 a share to get it. They have NOT given up. Watch for the same boyze to have another go shortly.

The grounding of the fleet? Obviously preplanned and part of the script.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Has Oneworld had anything to say yet? There must be a lot of inconvenienced code share passengers from the other member airlines.

[Vorsicht]

My bet is that AJ pulled the stunt on Saturday so it wouldn't affect share trading immediately, with the knowledge that the government would be forced to react immediately in the national interest, particularly with the Spring racing carnival underway, and that this phase of the issue will be resolved by the end of the weekend with FWA cancelling all PIA and everything slowly returning to operation by Monday morning. This would result in the smallest impact on the share price.

Of course if it isn't resolved by Monday morning then hang on tight!

He has called the governments bluff, not the unions'. It will be interesting to see how hardline Bob Brown is on his views. He will be the key to this in the short term.

Albanese obviously is aware he has been played by Joyce. Gillard on the other hand may well have been complicit. Insiders might be interesting this morning.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Spokeswoman from VB sprooking support for the public and extra flights on ABC 24, has a grin from ear to ear, I bet they just can't stop laughing!

SN

[NewPiper]

This is absolutely the right call by the CEO. Its a gutsy proactive move. Its easy to sit back and criticise AJ when none of us will now never know the result of an alternative decision by the QF board, i.e sit back and watch the unions hassle the company over the next 12 months. This is what the unpopular labor govt has demonstrated....a lack of guts to be proactive even as recent as last week when they were advised and asked by several leading people to be pro-active and get involved. What did they choose to do? Nothing and now, yesterday, we see Gillard taking action. A good smart govt would have seen this coming ages ago and should have acted ages ago. I'd be very surprised to see QF start up again in the same scale and size that they were yesterday, at least as far as LH ops are concerned. 1000 job losses is going to look cheap when all this is said and done. The blame lies fairly and squarely on the 3 union leaders I'm afraid. They all got caught hook line and sinker!

[Bigboeingboy]

Good to see the greedy selfish Qantas Captains affected by Joyce's action. They never gave a rats arse about their junior colleagues now they have found out the hard way the rot starts at the bottom.
It is laughable how bloody stupid Qantas pilots are.

[Sunfish]

The utter contempt for the traveling public shown by the Qantas Board and Management is instructive.

This action was preplanned, it has to be. Joyce could not and would not do this without Board support. The timing was deliberately established to disrupt a public holiday as well.

Qantas may even be making more money out of this action if the cheap fares have disappeared as has been suggested.

[ferris]

Yeah, right. I would've expected better interference from paid lackies, or....

Everyone is assuming that FWA will cancel the PIA and order the unions back to work. What if they don't? What if they say that the unions were taking reasonable, measured action, and it is up to the shareholders, via their management, to close down the company if they wish (which obviously they don't- would be an interesting proposition to close down a profitable, publicly traded company).
What if they see this for exactly what it is- a company trying to use the govt/law/FWA etc to stop unions taking industrial action?

[Marauder]

OK, I'm not real bright, so can you explain to me slowly, how greedy Qantas pilots wearing silly ties and making in flight announcements are adversely affecting Qantas

[mcgrath50]

Ignore the trolls.

Today on AM "The airline practices and implements grounding the airline multiple times a year" - Alan Joyce. Huh?

Backing down cause he knew he was sprung with preplanning this?

[stubby jumbo]

The blame lies fairly and squarely on the 3 union leaders I'm afraid. They all got caught hook line and sinker!

I reckon its a bit too early to call BLAME on this one NewPiper.

Me thinks -we will see who ends up with the Raw Prawn tomorrow morning when the ASX opens up.:=

[mcgrath50]

Alan Joyce will be interviewed on a special Inside Business today on the ABC.

[tinpis]

Alan Joyce will be interviewed on a special Inside Business today

And Bolta

On The Bolt Report on Channel 10 (10am and 4:30pm): Qantas CEO Alan Joyce, Peter Costello, Bruce Hawker and Donna Laframboise on her IPCC expose. Apologies for the no-show of Richard Denniss, grounded by the Qantas dispute,

[Vorsicht]

Of course this could also be the start of the final act in the takeover game (for all the conspiracy theorists). Share price drops dramatically on Monday, private equity moves in on Tuesday.

Cliffords response on Friday that he thought that it would be too hard for PE to raise the funds is laughable.

[-438]

How can Qantas justify grounding mainline 737's but allow Jetconnect to keep operating?

[truthinbeer]

I don't profess to know the ins and outs of the Qantas dispute. Surely the Unions do not want to cripple the company with unrealsitic claims? How can any real dialogue occur with a Board of Directors who are too many in number and are being paid what is really obscene amounts of money.

I am angry that our national carrier has had it's brand damaged for-ever by a CEO who cannot have the feeling of pride the rest of us grew up with.

I could go on but will just say I am not happy.

[stillalbatross]

The CEO is responsible to the board who are responsible to the shareholders. They obviously back him and his actions, I would be curious to see how a take over by private equity would earn everyone better terms and conditions. More likely that they would load the company with debt, lean the operation out and flog all they can to get the debt levels down. None of that points to better options than what QF pays now.

[Vorsicht]

Shorten on Insiders taking a dim view of Joyces actions. This is going to get interesting.

[Jerr]

Having been stranded and delayed previously, as a QF Platinum FF I shall have to fly in the future with other airlines.

No wonder that Virgin were offering to transfer QF FF into their FF program at the same status.

QF will be out of business by loosing more customers like me.

JERR

[Sunfish]

Stillalbatross:

The CEO is responsible to the board who are responsible to the shareholders. They obviously back him and his actions, I would be curious to see how a take over by private equity would earn everyone better terms and conditions. More likely that they would load the company with debt, lean the operation out and flog all they can to get the debt levels down. None of that points to better options than what QF pays now.

Once the company is private, it's profitability is not required to be disclosed. A privatised Qantas could screw the traveling public for all its worth. There would also be enough to buy off the unions as well. This has been done many times before.

[Blakewindermere]

steve purvinas thanks for everything

[SOPS]

Just landed..and heard the news..I am shocked, stunned. Let me add that SKY news (UK) (run by you know who) is currently on air as I type at LHR and giving the impression on air and to pax interviwed that the grounding is because of a pilots stike!!! Showing vision of boarding signs "QANTAS apoligises your flight is being affeted by industrial action":ugh:

[SOPS]

aiming...where is your info coming from?

[tail wheel]

Not sure where you get that from?

Neither unions nor company backed down so at 2.00 am the FWA was adjourned to later today.

Stick to the facts. Peoples livilhood is involved, including staff and shareholders. They deserve to be informed, not misinformed.

[clark y]

Is this another method to try and push the government to remove the Qantas sale act and then sell off QF?

Also if this is preplanned, are board members open to any legal case against them for misleading shareholders?

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

Alan Joyce is coming up on The Bolt Report on Channel Ten at 10am [repeated at 4:30pm].

I really don't think the unions should be playing victim in this too much. It reminds me of the school kid on the bus who claimed 'victim status' after the guy he had been slapping in the back of the head for 10 minutes turned around and punched him in the nose.

[skol]

I'll put my money on Joyce getting the arse over this one, not the most propitious time to ground the airline given the headlines over maintenance problems and the current hot potato, corporate greed.

[SOPS]

nothing there

[Arnold E]

I'll put my money on Joyce getting the arse over this one,

VERY much doubt that will happen, more likely to get a bonus.:ugh:

[tail wheel]

ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-30/qantas-grounding-fair-work-australia-hearing-adjourned/3608630):

After three Qantas executives gave evidence, the Transport Workers Union called on CEO Alan Joyce to explain the timing of his announcement.

Lawyers for the three unions all argued for the industrial action to be suspended, rather than terminated.

The lawyer for the AIPA said he had grave concerns about the legality of the actions of Qantas and the strategies it was using in the dispute.

He called for a 90-day suspension of the industrial action to enable it to continue its negotiations.

That is hardly "caving in", rather a fairly rational approach? The dispute will never be resolved until the parties start meaningful negotiations. The media suggests the unions were always willing to negotiate.

Keep it factual.

[manfred]

Bill Shorten on Insiders this morning, seemed mightily pissed off with Qantas

[Fris B. Fairing]

http://www.adastron.com/aviation/vault/sorry.jpg

[Bug4514]

I agree with aiming point, AJ has won this one. The unions and pilots will cave.
The damage is done to the Qantas name now all over the world. They should stick at it and stick it to AJ.
BUT THEY WONT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good luck to them anyway.

[SpannerTwister]

.........If the Qantas dispute isn't resolved today !!!

A lot of Jetstar's (line) maintenance is done by Qantas LAMEs.

Come 8.00pm Monday if there are no Qantas LAME's available I predict the Jetstar fleet will very quickly be forced to the ground.

In many bases Qantas LAME's handle JQ transits and carry out ER preflights, MEL applications and transit defects.

I know that in many bases there are no other options for JQ line maintenance.

ST

[Uncashed Pilot]

AJ wins , if you want your job back youll need to sign a new contract on their terms, or stay home indefinantly.
If you wait too long the worms at Jetstar will offer to fly the A380 for peanuts and pay for the CCQ.

[stubby jumbo]

I have watched a couple of interviews this morning with AJ-on 9's Today show,Sky's Agenda.............the BEST by far was the interview by Alan Kohler on Inside Business.

He lined up the Leprechaun beautifully.......especially over his 70% pay rise. 'Had AJ squirming like a little weasel.

Kohler said that taking this pay rise by the QF Rem Committee was like saying to all staff........UP YOURS !

Gold. That is exactly what we think.:D

Good on you ABC........I got my 8 cents worth:)

[SOPS]

So when AJ grounded QF and locked out the employees had he thought through that JokeStar needed the QF bit, like the engineers and others, to operate? I think he has completley completley lost the plot. And let me tell you..I was walking through an Asian airport last night to get on my aircraft, and the anger I saw from Australian pax towards AJ as they could not board thier flight home was unbelivable....QF brand is being destroyed by the minute!!

[equilibrium2212]

Interesting TV this am. ABC24 reported documents filed at the hearing demonstrated executives were alerted to the grounding/lockout plans a week ago, yet in the 9 Today interview AJ still stuck to the line the decision was taken after the AGM. He now needs a nose job! :=

[itsjustme]

Hey stubby jumbo, can you post a link to those interviews if your able please ???

[truthinbeer]

AJ is doing precisely what Peter Reith did in the waterfront dispute a decade ago. It will result in a changed workplace and perhaps for the better. What bothers me is the collateral damage to things like fatigue where a company can call you in,use you for 3 hours, send you home and get you back later in the day making you effectively a casual. Just using that as an example to indicate there will be bad changes along with some that may be good.

As suggested earlier is AJ serving Qantas up to some buy-out mob who will put up the parts for sale?

[Blakewindermere]

Do union organizers get paid whilst the members are on strike or locked out. What award is Steve P paid under or is he on an individual agreement, thanks FOR STUFFING MY LIFE YOU GRUB.

[DJ737]

So when AJ grounded QF and locked out the employees

AJ hasn't locked out anyone yet, thats monday night.

All he has done has grounded the fleet, even if FWA suspends or terminates the industrial action, they don't have any say as to where and when QF should operate the fleet.

QF could stay on the deck for quite awhile.

[airdualbleedfault]

A foreigner coming into our country and turning an Australian company into an offshore operation and a farce......How the :mad: does that work ???

[equilibrium2212]

How do you think you got the wages and conditions you currently enjoy blakewindermere? Because of the generosity and compassion of the company?

[Mr.Buzzy]

Public apathy at its best..... "Ah well, where do I click now?"
Shame on you LC......Huge profits, not a cent to the shareholder and killing off jobs. Destroying yet another WORKPLACE... What an Aussie:D
Sleep well at night?

bbbbzzzzzzzzzzz

[PPRuNeUser0161]

QF will need to shrink from here to remain viable. Either that or reduce the ticket prices/costs. The prices are high and service wanting. Some new babes wouldn't hurt either! I think this has a long way to go yet even after they start flying again.

SN

[Blakewindermere]

Dont speak about Gillard like that!

[Mr.Buzzy]

Which part of 500 million was not viable?

bbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[gettinouttathegame]

It has been confirmed Alan Joyce will be appearing as a guest on tommorow nights show.

Can't wait to see what he's got to say now...

[Metro man]

A lot of Jetstar's (line) maintenance is done by Qantas LAMEs.

What about the transit checks for foreign airlines turning around at Australian airports ? Looks like a lot of overtime for the engineers who will need to accompany the aircraft.

[Xcel]

In one fowl swoop Gillard could earn her reelection if the government bought out Qantas... Scary dream I just had...

[Mr.Buzzy]

The government are here only to protect to big business! Forget about a government buyout.

[Talkwrench]

blakewindermere

Do union organizers get paid whilst the members are on strike or locked out. What award is Steve P paid under or is he on an individual agreement, thanks FOR STUFFING MY LIFE YOU GRUB.

erm...we haven't actually been locked out yet and are currently still being paid.

are you a qantas lame and alaea member? if so, you would know that SP draws his wage from the ALAEA. You may then comprehend that this arrangement gives him the protection required to do the work he does.

You would also know that the majority of the ALAEA executive are volunteers that are Full Time Employee LAME's employed by QANTAS. Their paycheque comes from the same place that all other QF LAME's does - QANTAS. That should give you some confidence that they don't take lightly their decisions regarding Qantas EB negotiations.

[King William III]

Renationalise QF, lock all unions into a ten year cpi agreement and start BUILDING an airline WITH the employees!!

That would pull the rug out from under these greedy psychopaths!!

[ohallen]

Dont forget the second leg...replace QF Domestic with Jetstar because that is only a matter of time regardless of legalities that pollies will change to save the travelling public.

There is a noticeable shift in the once compliant media this morning that almost matches the underlying anger of the pollies.

AJ also got caught out saying they had no other options under FWA, with both politicians and Melbourne Professor on Inside Business contradicting him.

On the timing there was also a game of words but what is abundantly clear is that once the shareholders endorsed them to the extent that they did, they interpreted this as the green light to do whatever they wanted. Not sure shareholders would actually agree on that one.

Perhaps LC and AJ have finally pushed the button too hard, lets hope so because this deserves to blow up in their faces and their arrogance despatched to far off places as fast as possible.

Lets also remind the remaining Board of the AMP stance with one of their CEO's as he was shown the door. "We know we are legally liable but if you want the obscene millions sue us and we will see who wins when you have totally destroyed the company". That CEO disappeared without a peep.

Sometimes Boards just have to have some balls in doing what is right and hopefully with Qantas it will be a completely new Board with not one remaining after this fiasco and hopefully some of them facing the prospect of a cell and their reputations in tatters.

[woollcott]

Just received my lockout notice - thanks Lyle!!!

Rostered to start @1900 tomorrow. If I start work at that time, do I get "escorted" out an hour later?

Will they "escort" the rest of the guys as well?

[Slippery_Pete]

This morning Joyce is saying that unless ALL protected industrial action gets terminated by FWA, they will leave the aircraft on the ground. He says temporary suspensions of the IA will most probably not get the aircraft back in the air.

He is holding a gun to Qantas' head and blackmailing the federal government.

The only issue FWA have to decide is if a complete airline lockout with zero notice (yet preplanned two weeks before the AGM) is appropriate action compared to wearing red ties and making some PAs.

FWA MUST find this to be a gross overstep by Qantas and immediately reinstate operations.

I can not believe the arrogance of Alan Joyce ... telling the federal government he will continue to ground the airline unless ALL action is immediately terminated.

He should be jailed for blackmailing the government.

[Vorsicht]

Unions have not caved at all. Government is calling for termination and unions are fighting hard for suspension, which is the best they can hope for. One thing is for sure, either one or the other will be the outcome today.

Given the governments position on Qantas actions and the fact that Sheldon is a heavy hitter in the ALP, i wouldn't mind betting that Joyce may get a bit of a touch up from FWA if it gets to arbitration.

[missy]

Qantas today announced that, from 8pm AEDT on Monday 31 October 2011, it will lock out all employees who will be covered by the industrial agreements currently being negotiated with the Australian Licenced Engineers Union (ALAEA), the Transport Workers Union (TWU) and the Australian and International Pilots Union (AIPA)

The lock out includes all Qantas employees covered by ALAEA, TWU and AIPA, not just members of ALAEA, TWU and AIPA.

[QF94]

Jetstar will fly regardless. Once upon a time we used to maintain and certify AJ airlines, but that was another contract we 'lost'.

[Bunyan Wingnut]

Just appeared on ABC, re QANTAS, trust and reputation

Grounding eroding Qantas' reputation
By business editor Peter Ryan – analysis
Updated October 30, 2011 11:02:47

PHOTO: Qantas' reputation was built up over decades and could be lost in just one day.
(Mick Tsikas: AAP)

Alan Joyce's decision to ground the entire Qantas fleet is already costing the airline tens of millions of dollars but the reputational and brand damage is much greater.

Trust, certainty and confidence in Qantas has been eroded on all levels and the only unified support appears to be from the Qantas board which signed off on the extraordinary action yesterday morning.

The dramatic escalation prompted anger from Transport Minister Anthony Albanese about a lack of consultation before the grounding was announced, fuelling the perception that the decision was premeditated.

But the depth of the crisis was summed up by Prime Minister Julia Gillard who said the new flashpoint had "implications for the national economy".

"Implications" could well be an understatement by a Prime Minister remaining calm under immense pressure.

AUDIO: Alan Joyce speaks with business editor Peter Ryan (AM)
On its own, the prospect of Qantas in accelerating revenue decline has the potential to slice into economic growth at a time when state and territory economies are operating at multiple speeds.

But consider the potential impact on tourism (already struggling from a high Australian dollar), and the reluctance of visitors and travelling Australians to consider Qantas as a reliable carrier.

Qantas says domestic travellers are switching to competitors like Virgin Australia, accounting for a 20 per cent decline in revenue.

Virgin has jumped on the escalation, ensuring it does not waste a crisis.

The impact, however, could go much deeper.

Consider the hotel bookings being cancelled or rescheduled. Will this add uncertainty for casual or part time staff who rely on hospitality for their livelihoods?

Retailers and cafes based at major Qantas terminals had plenty of bumped customers late yesterday.

But the demand for lattes, muffins and toasted sandwiches is about to disappear with flights grounded and booked passengers told not to turn up.

Taxis, car hire, buses – even the supervisor at the taxi rank – will see the reason for operating at Qantas terminals disappearing.

The list goes on.

Then there is increasing scrutiny of Mr Joyce's $5 million pay deal approved by shareholders on Friday.

Even with a 71 per cent increase, Mr Joyce is a discount chief executive compared the $10 million his successor Geoff Dixon received in his final year.

But taking a significant pay increase while asking unions to compromise and to trade in traditional terms and conditions is raising the cynicism stakes with the government and general community.

Qantas, until now, was an iconic global brand known for safety, reliability, and above all trust.

But as the saying goes, a reputation is built up over decades and lost in a day.

That day has arrived and regardless of any breakthrough, Qantas for many is now just another airline trying to survive in a globalised world.

[schlong hauler]

Where is the board.
Where is Clifford
Where is Strong
Where is Cosgrove
Gutless

[Avitor]

Any relation to William Joyce?

[Metro man]

What if the next move is to allow a resumption of domestic operations, come in and sign your new contracts if you want to work. Can anyone see what this leads to ?

[Mr.Buzzy]

Qantas Board of Directors (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/board-of-directors/global/en)

[Livs Hairdresser]

Wonder how the institutional shareholders will feel on Monday morning when they watch the share price in free fall, after having voted up the resolutions at the AGM only the day before this debacle started.

Either QF had given them no prior notice this was going to happen, which would be seen as a great big 'f##k you' by the big shareholders
or
QF had briefed them beforehand, which means that the rest of the shareholders voted at the AGM without having critical information disclosed to them.

Which one was it? Either way, Alan's buggered.

[Blakewindermere]

Where is tony sheldon

[65er]

This move is nothing but corporate terrorism

[Ngineer]

Wonder how the institutional shareholders will feel on Monday morning when they watch the share price in free fall, after having voted up the resolutions at the AGM only the day before this debacle started.



His remuneration may have been in jeopardy had he revealed this before the AGM.

[Blakewindermere]

corporate terrorism LOL what about the industrial terrorism that is farking everyone up at QF

[Big Unit]

Wonder how the institutional shareholders will feel on Monday morning when they watch the share price in free fall, after having voted up the resolutions at the AGM only the day before this debacle started.



Having watched the farcical AGM yesterday, clearly, share price is not an issue to them!

[piston broke again]

Someone find out if Qantas actually booked a heap of extra hotel rooms for pax before the AGM. Did Bruce Buchanan cancel all/some JQ workers leave before the AGM. Was this preplanned?? AJ you have a lot of explaining to do!

[Exit Strategy]

Dear Fugitive,

You are a FW!

As one of those RAAF Pilots doing the Governments dirty work in 89 I can tell you that there was almost 100% support for the AFAP by the RAAF/RAN Aircrew. After all the AFAP were trying to protect the conditions at airlines we wanted to work for after our time in the Military. Despite most of us receiving direct offers of employment from both airlines (including getting us out of return of service obligations) only a couple of individuals failed the morals test and took up positions. Most of the AN/TN boys were smart enough to realize that:
1. the number of seats we provided was minimal and so did not have a significant effect, and
2. the ADF is not a democracy, you follow orders.

As for the out of town Pilots, The first two batches of America West guys left the jets, packed their bags and went home when they worked out what they had been brought over to do. Subsequent crews only flew in Australia under the threat of dismissal (AW was 25% owned by AN at the time).

I appreciate that other groups may not have been as supportive.

[truthinbeer]

c173, I think you have selectively quoted Dick Smith, and that this is a simple snapshot of Dick Smiths' views and do not correctly represent him.
what the hell is wrong with you dick smith??? you may aswell pull your australian products because I'm not buying them anymore I think you are playing the man, not the ball.

[Sunfish]

Watch for a take over bid.

If the nominee companies that hold the bulk of the company's shares are not in this little plan up to their ears then I will eat my hat.

Otherwise Joyce would have been given his marching orders this morning.

Folks, this is a conspiracy to take Qantas private.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

The institutional shareholders would not care about the price. They only care that they make money out of the share if it goes down or up. To a large degree they control the price by getting in and out at the right time. Its the mums and dads who should run a mile from this share.

SN

[truthinbeer]

Sunfish Folks, this is a conspiracy to take Qantas private

Agreed.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Ch 9 TV news in Perth reporting that ETIHAD, & Singapore Airlines and 'others' will be doing SY - ML and other DOMESTIC runs in AUS to alleviate the backlog and get the pax moving......

Virgin claiming that they still have seats available in the immediate future.

p.s. Why is it that when I type E t i h a d , it prints out as 'Teahid'..???

[No Idea Either]

Piston Broke Again,

Now that you mention that, I was in a lift last week with three JQ drivers who mentioned that their leave had just been cancelled through to Xmas. They were pretty cranky. Now we know why.

[Vorsicht]

Union busting tactics are not necessarily bad for share prices. It is quite possible that institutional shareholders were aware of what was coming in any case.

It will be interesting to see how much the price drops, could be that the big boys start picking up all the shares discarded by the mums and dads monday morning.

[dartman2]

1. Under the FW Act how can QF lock out staff that are not engaged in PIA such as the short haul pilots?

2. If staff such as baggage handlers represented by the TWU are locked out how do QF Link flights function? Do they have a limited non-union workforce to do this work?

3. Do JQ aircraft require the support of the staff that are to be locked out such as engineers of baggage handling?

4. The Irish Fool has stated the lockout will include all members of the 3 unions but those unions have members at QF Link and JQ so is that what is really going to happen?

[Jabawocky]

Now that you mention that, I was in a lift last week with three JQ drivers who mentioned that their leave had just been cancelled through to Xmas. They were pretty cranky. Now we know why.

Possibly not, that seems to be ops normal as JQ never have enough crew all year let alone at xmas time. It may be just a coincidence.

[DJ737]

Ch 9 TV news in Perth reporting that Teahid, & Singapore Airlines and 'others' will be doing SY - ML

Correct, EY & DL can do one round trip each, SQ & NZ will rotate their aircraft thru MEL & SYD adding tag legs.

DL also planning on sending down with crews 8x 737-800's.

EY doing SYD-BKK daily round-trip with A330

[onetrack]

As a simple member of the public, but as one with corporate experience and knowledge, let me make these following points clear to any QF employees who still hope and believe that this move by AJ will fail and backfire.

1. This move by the Qantas board would have been planned months ago, and with unbelievable attention to detail.

2. AL, LC and other board members didn't get to where they are, by being "nice people". The top levels of the corporate world are filled with utterly ruthless, utterly immoral, and utterly greed-and-ambition-driven people. They take no prisoners.

3. This move is their "blitzkreig", while you all sit around and wave pieces of paper, like Neville Chamberlain. Grounding Qantas is his commencement salvo equivalent to dropping a 14" shell amongst you, before you've even thought about digging trenches. These people treat workers as cannon fodder to achieve their aims. Those aims are to reduce costs to half what they are now, and to exact huge financial rewards to themselves as part of the deal.

4. Unfortunately, AJ, LC and the board will win. There is no way that Qantas will ever remain in its present form, because these people have no intention of allowing it to happen. In the future, the 29th of October 2011 will be seen as the day that the original Qantas died.

5. The aim of AJ and the board is to drop a hand grenade that scatters the mob. In addition, this move is designed to make politicians cave in, and allow the Qantas Sale Act to be dismantled. (Every other Act, Govt-owned organisation or other legislation designed to benefit the Australian people has been dismantled or destroyed by corporate bastardry that made politicians cave in to their demands).

6. The travelling public care not a whit, in general, about who carries them, in this day and age. They have been trained to seek out the lowest cost, and at the click of a mouse button, they can find it.
To the travelling public, all aeroplanes look the same, all pilots look the same, and the main factor that drives them is how easy it is for them to get a free upgrade.
The anger of the public is currently directed at Qantas. Not AJ, not LC, not any board member. Just Qantas, the airline. The damage has been done to the brand, and neither AJ, nor LC, nor any board member really care.
They are intent on their Asianisation plan, and it will be carried out, without a shadow of a doubt.
Unions and complaining workers are just a problem that have to be deal with in a jackboot manner .. and believe me, these people regard jackboots as just part of their tools of trade.

I have been in on enough corporate meetings (as a corporate outsider) to see how these people operate. They talk about how they plan to ambush people, ramp shares, and do anything that is needed, to fulfill their aims of power and greed.

They are utterly devoid of ethics or morals, and I don't believe that anyone who has never been party to their corporate scheming, understands how ruthless these people are, and how little they care about peoples lives, loyalties, and working conditions.
I feel sorry for all genuinely honest and hardworking Qantas employees, because you are no match for these ruthless pricks.

[Mr.Buzzy]

20 Ruthless pricks versus 20.000 angry good folk.
I'm not so sure.

[damono]

Hear the action as it happened...

Qantas grounds all flights | LiveATC.net (http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/qantas-grounds-all-flights/msg52902/)

(need to log-in to listen)

YSSY Twr feed for 29 October at 0600-0630Z, about 10:40 into the stream.

Interesting exchange between Sydney tower and a Qantas flight taxiing for takeoff just as the company gounds all flights. At Controller advises Qantas to contact company before continuing taxi ... about a minute later the Qantas requests a return to the terminal.

Also, in the first minute or two of the stream, QF5 heavy departs YSSY around 1702 AEST, about a minute *after* the grounding came into effect.


D

[DoMePlease]

The fact that they've sacrificed the Qantas' name and reputation (eg travellers in Perth for Chogm, Bangkok floods and the Spring Carnival) means they're planning to shut the company down for good.

[ABAT4t2]

unions have won this hands down now. watch and learn you doom and gloom mercenarys

[-438]

The Trade Practices Act may well offer the best hope of bringing the actions of management to account with regard to restrictions of trade and utilising monopoly positions for Corporate advantage.

Fair Work Australia will never delve deep enough.

The Australian Government will never delve deep enough.

Journalists will just regurgitate Qantas Press releases.

[MACH082]

This is revenge against the 2007/8 engineers dispute.

Plain and simple.

They have got in first. Pretty gutsy move but it's blowing up in their face.

I reckon there is going to be a few URIs going around when the airline gets going again.....

[Tankengine]

The world is changing, judging by the "Arab Spring" and "Occupy Wall street" it may not be changing quite the way dinosaurs like Clifford think!:E

Whether or not Qantas is stuffed, there may be managers put up against the wall yet!:eek:

[hadagutfull]

So , management have been negotiating in good faith all this Time.........

What a toxic work place we will have if this dispute ever gets sorted out.

[DoMePlease]

The fact that they've planned this in advance and not mention a word of it during the AGM is blatantly illegal.

[Long Bay Mauler]

This perhaps, has been one of the best kept secrets ever, as it would have taken at least 100+ people, including those not working for Qantas, and even institutional investors to keep their mouth shut.

Too bad no one spilt the beans during the AGM.

[OhSpareMe]

Hey OneTrack,

3. This move is their "blitzkreig", while you all sit around and wave pieces of paper, like Neville Chamberlain.

You would be right there. But I reckon it is also the start of AJ's Operation Barbarossa. And we all know how that ended.

[Seriously]

On ABC news reporting that Jetstar sent out an memo to crew advising them that ops normal at J* but it was dated Wed 26th Oct...

J* claim it was an error, they took the last memo they sent and deleted the content, added the new content but missed the date...

[mohikan]

I understand the company has begun serving writs against individual pilots. A fellow B767 captain just had his door knocked on.

Might be a good afternoon not to answer the front door me thinks.

[breakfastburrito]

Go back and re-read onetracks (excellent) insider post (http://www.pprune.org/members/99612-onetrack). I have been saying it for well over 6 months, that the intention of management has been to destroy Qantas to justify its own destruction (Qantas Doing it Tough post #19 (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/449267-qantas-doing-tough.html)).

I have also demonstrated in Globalisation debt &banking (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/456639-globalisation-debt-banking.html) the methods the elite has used to implement & conduct the undeclared war against the 99%, the aim of which is to return to a neo-feudalism with two classes in society - the ultra wealthy & the serf class. In effect a modern amalgam of fascism & communism. Globalisation was sold to the masses to give them cheap imports, but in the elites minds, it was to a way to import third world working conditions to the west. You need look no further than the US & Europe to see how that ends.

Qantas employees are now finding themselves at the sharp end of the spear.

Sunfish's observation about a new private equity bid would also be my best guess as to motive behind what is going on. In many ways the industrial action is a way to divert attention. Watch the magicians other hand.

There is nothing new under the sun, this is just another shell game. History is littered with examples of the already obscenely wealthy destroying the people around them for profit & pleasure. The people running this organisation are no exception.

War is being waged against you.

[Slippery_Pete]

Current ABC coverage is OVERWHELMINGLY of the opinion that the action was pre-planned, and that Alan Joyce is lying about when the decision to ground the airline was made.

He also did not deny that the grounding had been considered before the AGM when asked exactly that.

They also have a copy of a Jetstar crew notice (provided by AIPA) discussing the shutdown - which was supposedly written on Wed 26/10/11! Jetstar claim it was a cut and paste job of an old notice, causing the date error. Nice try :D

Alan Joyce, this is the beginning of the end for you. :ok:

Hopefully when the board sack you, you won't have enough money to fix your teeth -----> :}

[King William III]

Too many 'spokesmen' telling too many lies....it was only a matter of time before they slipped up!

Nice one BB!!

[onetrack]

OhSpareMe - There is no comparison to this move by Joyce, and Hitler error with Operation Barbarossa. Hitler split his forces and weakened his entire operation with Barbarossa.
AJ and LC have done nothing like that with the grounding move - but they have set in train, the precise events they wanted to have in place.
Employees unbalanced by shock tactics, worrying more now about how they'll meet the mortgage and put food on the table in the next few weeks - politicians scurrying to cave in to corporate demands, before they too, lose their arses in the fallout - and in the meantime, the board have their next move carefully mapped out, as the results of their current move produce exactly the conditions they sought.

[Ken Borough]

Too many people here are displaying their ignorance on planning matters. It is obvious that Qantas would have investigated any number of various scenarios leading up to the grounding of the fleet. To anyone familiar with planning processes,it would also be obvious that the timing of the decision taken by Qantas is as stated by the CEO.

[bonvol]

The hearing coming up at FWA will be presided over by the President Justice Giudice, who I believe has just resigned from FWA.

Those from the unmentionable year will well remember him when he was an up and comer as Abeles QC.

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Can you shed more light on the writs being handed out to the 767 pilot/s?
Thanks

[bonvol]

Individual writs again? Same old tactics as in 89.

[TSRABECOMING]

Dear QF passeners,
you are the real victims :ugh:

[SimonBl]

bonvol: Fair Work president quits (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/fair-work-president-quits-20111027-1mlzj.html)

[Boardman]

Toxic Workplace is an understatement!! If QF survives this, with Joyce at the helm no one is going to stretch themselves to get the job done. "To hard, ground the Aircraft" or "Someone else can sort this out" will be the call. I can see it now!
They do not want QF to survive! It is business suicide to make a move like this. As someone said before, these guys are ruthless, this was a planned move and was done with precicion. No one in their right mind in any business would make such a move if they intended the business to conyinue in the same vane. You reckon they did it just to stuff around the LAME's, Pilot's and TWU? Not likely! They know exactly what they are doing. Dropped a bomb!! We are mere Pawns in their game and we got in the way.

Very sad days for people who actually give a **** and were proud of their Proffessions and Qantas!!!!!

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

Which part of 500 million was not viable?

QANTAS Return on Assets: 1.22%
QANTAS Return on Equity: 4.14%
Commonwealth Bank NetSaver account: 4.75%

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/QAN-ROE.png

Let's not pretend that QANTAS is a star performer.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

Can you shed more light on the writs being handed out to the 767 pilot/s?
Thanks

I believe under the Fair Work act they are required to notify each employee in writing [that they are locked out]. I'm sure someone else can confirm / deny that.

[hotnhigh]

Nice graph Pass O. When did Geoff Dixon takeover?
It's marvellous what indefinite cost cutting, staff engagement levels, wrong aircraft, ever diminishing route structure achieves.
The current board have no solutions to the dive you kindly illustrated.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

For those that missed it, Alan Joyce on The Bolt Report this morning [will be broadcast on 10 at 4:30pm too]

The Bolt Report - YouTube (http://bit.ly/sO0d7e)
(http://bit.ly/73qS2)

[sani-com]

Leigh Howard twittering from FWA

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/leigh_howard)

[Keg]

I suspect they're not 'issuing writs' per se- at least not in the '89 context. All industrial action is 'protected' and we can't be sacked for it or held liable for damages as it's legal IA.

That said, crew who may have been required to turn up for work tomorrow or the next day may in fact be getting letters informing them that they're not required. That IS a legal requirement for Qantas. Our email inboxes indicate that a letter has been forwarded to our addresses on file with Qantas.

We'll see what happens from here.

[Taco Muncher]

I believe under the Fair Work act they are required to notify each employee in writing
[that they are locked out]. I'm sure someone else can confirm / deny that.

Correct, I just received mine by courier.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

From Fair Work Australia hearing - Apparently CASA sent a letter to QF concerned how union strikes would effect safety.

Also, the QF board considered a lockout with only 3 hours notice.

[Angle of Attack]

1. Under the FW Act how can QF lock out staff that are not engaged in PIA such as the short haul pilots?

Hi dartman, shorthaul pilots are not being locked out, they have just grounded the fleet, Pay will continue as per the shorthaul award.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

In general a commercial investment is measured by its return on outlay. Standard minimum for basic viability is regarded as 10%. QF is under 5% return for the shareholders. If this outfit cannot pull 1.1B PA NETT its not worth the effort.

SN

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Well done to the Unions, by taking very small, reasonable and measured action against QANTAS.

You have been able coax AJ into making, what is in my opinion, a completely unmeasured, unreasonable and non intelligent response that is far out of proportion to the actions of the Unions. The Government and the general public are seeing red and will not forget AJ's actions.

The traveling public have seen AJ and the board for what they are...........

Stand united, they can not beat you.

Even if the PIA is terminated, you are not obliged to do overtime or save fuel or accept aircraft with defects.....................

Good hunting !!!.

Do not forget this little gem: The Union Pilot (http://www.unionpilot.org/)

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

At Fair Work Australia - QANTAS is arguing that if they performed the lockout [without an immediate shutdown] with plenty of notice, it would effect safety.

[distracted cockroach]

Guys, my symapthy to those locked out...went through it with Ansett NZ in 1999...we lasted 6 weeks then caved in and accepted the 3rd reduced contract the company was peddling. The airline was never the same again and finally turned up it's toes in 2001.
The problem is that Qantas will now have all it's passengers and valuable corporate customers looking for other options. And once they have gone, they won't be coming back. If Qantas continues, it will be at a much reduced size and with a much reduced workforce.
I don't know about the Australian Industrial laws, but I expect the locked-out employees to be offered a contract sooner or later on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. There with be backstabbings and scabbings but in the end there will be those with jobs and those without. Those with jobs will have their conditions and pay reduced, but the airline will never again be a happy place to work, or a source of pride to employees. You will realise what I now know...the company doesn't give a single iota of consideration to your pride, loyalty or even your professionalism. You are nothing more than a resource to them, and a debit to their bottom line. If they could run the company without you, they would.
My advice therefore, is to swallow your pride, take what they offer, and get back to what will effectively be "paid job-search". You will never get back what you had. A line has been crossed, and unfortunately for you, there is no going back. There are no "jobs for life" anymore, so look for the best option for you and your family, and grab it now. The longer you wait, the fewer options there will be.
This is a serious step to take, and not easy given the "sheltered past" many have had in Qantas. Unfortunately there are not many options. If you fight, there is no winning, because "the company" has nothing more to lose. They have already put everything on the line, and whatever happens, the airline can never be the same again.
Everyone thought it would never happen, but it has.
RIP Qantas.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

Shed Dog Tosser, you should note that under Gillard's Fair Work Act a lockout is the only IR measure available to the QF board.

[onetrack]

The graph and the comments about Qantas' poor financial performance reflect nothing less than a paucity of management ability. The lockout demonstrates this paucity, even more so.
These board members are supposed to be the best that the corporate world can produce, in terms of superb management ability. We are constantly reminded, that, "paying peanuts only gets you monkeys".
Once again, as this current scenario proves - you can pay huge dollars, and still get monkeys.

[Comoman]

http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/1155483507/2581_78349430940_547945940_2825196_1890682_n_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/#!/leigh_howard)
@leigh_howard (http://twitter.com/#!/leigh_howard)leigh_howard
Q: risk assessment by #Qantas (http://twitter.com/#!/search?q=%23Qantas) completed on 18 Oct. That assessment suggested a lockout with 3. So the lockout was in plan prior to AGM

Look forward to ASX "Please explain" tomorrow

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

In general a commercial investment is measured by its return on outlay. Standard minimum for basic viability is regarded as 10%. QF is under 5% return for the shareholders. If this outfit cannot pull 1.1B PA NETT its not worth the effort.

Risk vs Return. QANTAS is considered higher risk that the market average due to terrorism, number of state sponsored competitors, and largely due to the heavily [ and militant] unionised workforce. QF should be looking to exceed 10% by a fair shot given the risk profile.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

Look forward to ASX "Please explain" tomorrow

Won't be an issue. Contingency planning is what responsible management does. I believe the board only voted on the action on Saturday.

[SixDemonBag]

#Qantas making out argument that the pilot action (and others) were posing safety threats (fatigue) and thus had to be stopped via lockout

...by wearing red ties and making PA's?

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Shed Dog Tosser, you should note that under Gillard's Fair Work Act a lockout is the only IR measure available to the QF board.

In all due respect PAF, that is not the case, what you are stating there is a very clever play on words by AJ.

[flyingfox]

Pass-A-Frozzo. .... , you should note that under Gillard's Fair Work Act a lockout is the only IR measure available to the QF board. They could also 'negotiate in good faith'! Qantas should try that some time!

onetrack I think creative accounting and Jetstar 'support' would be part of the profit results they are claiming.

[SimonBl]

So, now that it appears that Qantas Board has been planning this for some 12 days, I do wonder where that leaves them with the ASX and with ASIC. Surely there's some accountability there?

Source (tweet from FWA hearings): Q: while the lockout was planned since Oct 18, actual decision to pull trigger not made until sat morning by Joyce

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

'negotiate in good faith'I love that logic. We'll keep punching you with strikes, you keep talking.

I don't agree with the union striking, I also don't agree with a lockout. But if you are going to strike, then you should expect that a lockout is a possibility. If union members were not aware that QANTAS could be locked out in response to their constant industrial action then that is a matter that should be taken up with their representatives.

As I said before - it's reminds me of the school kid on the bus punching someone in the back of the head for 10 minutes then crying fowl when that person turns around and punches them back.

[Disengagement]

Find it funny Qantas using the fatigue card , as seem to remember during a roster dispute in Perth a few years ago ,they and the commissioner Raffiel did not recognize fatigue as a defence and made a ruling that way .

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

From Fair Work Australia - Interesting .. those representing the Minister request that some QF evidence is withdrawn [regarding discussions with Gov't] due to the Parl. Priv. Act.

[Slippery_Pete]

OMG, Gillard's press conference not good.

She is seeking "an end" to the industrial action rather than a suspension.

She also shot down Albanese's response yesterday, and Xenophon's call for an enquiry.

Gillard is rolling over. She is a disgrace to Labour.

[SimonBl]

Pass-a-frozzo: "it's reminds me of the school kid on the bus punching someone in the back of the head for 10 minutes then crying fowl when that person turns around and punches them back"

No, it's more like someone kicking the back of your seat for 10 minutes and then you turning around, pulling out a shotgun and blasting their head off.

[buttmonkey1]

uh oh, senator xenophon wants the qantas books audited.
this is getting better all the time.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

No, it's more like someone kicking the back of your seat for 10 minutes and then you turning around, pulling out a shotgun and blasting their head off.HyperBowl Much? Not at all. That would be sacking all the staff, liquidating all the assets and having Shareholders vote for it because it would give them a higher return than running the company.

I recognise that you probably like the idea of Unions striking, disabling the airline at times of their choosing, all whilst being paid is appealing. You need to recognise that at some stage you're going to take return fire.

I suspect that model of people like Purvenis enjoying 'slow baking' a company is now over -- for good. If Industrial Action is suspended [and no resolution is reached], and at any stage in the future any of the unions says they will strike, Joyce can just lock everyone out again.

When it comes down to it, either the government will intervene, or the striking workers will start defaulting on mortgages. At the end of the day, this is the Fair Work Act at work.

[SimonBl]

Pass-A-Frozzo, please don't assume you know where I am coming from, for you'll likely get it wrong :=

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

Pass-A-Frozzo, please don't assume you know where I am coming from

Perhaps review your stated opinion which leads to that conclusion. :ok:

[itsjustme]

we relied on tr civil aviation safety authority advice regarding fatigue. Undertook to constantly review effect of dispute....

Lol, CASA.........A wholey owned subsiduary of Qantas airways, answerable only to AJ

[woollcott]

Just watching ABC.........

It seems Qantas PLANNED the grounding last week but didnt ACTIVATE the strategy until Saturday, so, technically, Joyce is correct.............the decision was made after the AGM

[peuce]

So, Qantas grounded the fleet because they believed that pilots, contrary to regulations, would attend for work fatigued.

Do they believe that all the time? Or only this week? :confused: :confused:

[Artificial Horizon]

This is a disturbing move by Qantas. Lets not forget this is not a move by AJ, this is a move that would have been sanctioned by the Board who seem to have given AJ full backing.

Unfortuantly this also seems to be quite a brilliant strategic move, it has caught the unions off guard and seems destined to end in the termination of all industrial action and the whole thing referred to binding arbitration which will likely result in Qantas being authorised to do whatever the hell it wants with the future outsourcing of the business. I would think that AJ and the Board would consider the bad publicity and $50 million bucks a bargain to get that.

As an aside Jetconnect and Jetstar are getting really 'positive' press over here in New Zealand for being subsidiaries that aren't heavily unionised and therefore are not inconveniencing passengers with old style union action :ugh:

Good luck guys and girls, looks to me though that the unions have been 'flanked' in this battle.

[Xeptu]

Hilarious! Joyce claims the decision to ground the entire fleet was due to a safety risk assessment arising as a result of the staff lockout. Presumably then there is a safety risk assessment for when that staff lockout is lifted "AND" the dispute between the parties is not resolved. That would make for interesting reading.

[manfred]

from the tweets

thompsonbenji Ben Thompson
#qantas Strambi is a group exec of qantas and doesn't seem to know much! Moses for AIPA cleaning up.


thompsonbenji Ben Thompson
#qantas Strambi is struggling to give firm answers under cross examination.

[b737800capt06]

So how much less do Virgin Australia pilots/engineers and ground staff get paid compared to QF? or indeed are they on the same money?

Is Virgin Australia Union free? or have they done a deal?:E

Love to know what life if like from the VA point of view.;)

Qantas is just now just another international airline, soon no doubt to employ pilots/engineers/groundcrew from former Soviet Union block nations and pay then in vodka.:ok:

So everyone gets upset with the Unions, so take the unions away...what do you get? rubbish wages, less conditions, longer hours and because CASA is a toothless tiger (no pun intended) you will get angry un-motivated staff working on QF aircraft for minimum wage and food stamps, all to be played out on an Air Crash Investigation program in the not too distant future.:D

[The The]

It seems Qantas PLANNED the grounding last week but didnt ACTIVATE the strategy until Saturday, so, technically, Joyce is correct.............the decision was made after the AGM

Or it could be taken as Qantas PLANNED and DECIDED the grounding before the AGM. After the AGM, the decision (already made) was merely APPROVED by the board.

Either way, Joyce should have warned shareholders at the AGM, the action Qantas would take in response to further threatened union disruption.

[ABAT4t2]

and artificial horizon, I assume following your comments you are on the union inside?

Go away you fool

[Short_Circuit]

So how much less do Virgin Australia pilots/engineers and ground staff get paid compared to QF? or indeed are they on the same money?

A Virgin or Jetstar engineer actually earm more that at QF, :uhoh:

[Slippery_Pete]

The Qantas strategy all along has been to blackmail the government into a termination.

They are now crapping on that a suspension poses safety risks, whereas a termination has no safety consequences.

ARE THEY SERIOUS? WHICH ONE OF THOSE IS MOST LIKELY TO PISS OFF STAFF?

Are CASA buying this?

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Pass A Frozzo
Could not have said it better myself!

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

Joyce should have warned shareholders at the AGMIt's contingency planning. Quite standard in business.

However let's not now pretend that Unions exists for the benefit of shareholders, we all know that isn't the case.

From Fair Work Australia - Minister is seeking an order terminating all industrial action with a 2 month suspension in the alternative.

[bonvol]

Govt wants termination. Joyce wants termination. Be a miracle if FWA dont terminate given who runs the place.

[ejectx3]

Pilots qf vs virgin 737 about equal

[MACH082]

Now we know why Qantas grounded all flying due to the volcanic ash while everyone else flew......

Practice :hmm:

[soseg]

http://i44.tinypic.com/2nb4k92.jpg

[1a sound asleep]

You need to get these QF planes back in the sky. Other international carriers are ramping up their ops to carry QF pax. Its happening with every airline operating into Australia. There are in excess of 30 planes from various sources ready to arrive in Australia for domestic ops.

If QF isnt flying fast there will be no market left for Qantas. This is what the board want in the insane moment. Forget any claims, be glad you have a job and just go back to work. If you dont you are merely playing into QF's hands.

Friday you had a job. Today you dont. You can turn back time by merely withdrawing all claims. This makes the workers a winner as they still have their jobs. Fight on and there will be nothing

There is no point fighting to the death. Turn back now before it's too late

[PPRuNeUser0161]

OK so if they terminate the action what's the next move??

SN

[b737800capt06]

Lets all remember that AJ grounded QF NOT the Unions:mad:

[1a sound asleep]

OK so if they terminate the action what's the next move??

Qantas is then running out of options. They cant claim mass redundancy. All they can do is rely on natural attrition.

In time they will transfer more ops to JQ. WE know this. So what? If you have a QF job now make the most of it and be grateful for the time you have left. Save what you can and enjoy a happy retirement when it comes. The option is the dole

Further if the markets pick up, union action in another year or two is an entirely new claim. For now just save your job

Dont let a union destroy the job you have loved for so many years

[schlong hauler]

Qantas playing the safety card while insisting I carry min fuel everywhere is a bit rich. The last 18 months has been a distraction yet and In spite of some very serious incidences, pilots have managed and conducted their operation with discipline and professionalism. Management calling us Kamikazees and then worrying about safety! ****off.

[b737800capt06]

OK so if they terminate the action what's the next move??

Employees are required to work, stop all industrial action or face termination and fines/penalties - Unions and Union officials are also subject massive penalties if they breach an FWA order. :ouch:

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

OK so if they terminate the action what's the next move?? Qantas is then running out of options.How's that? The union can't take industrial action. What option do they need?

You realise that 'terminate the action' effects both sides. The day 'action' is allowed again and any union announces further 'action' , QF can lock you all out again.

It's really not a time for anyone to be 'gloating'. In fact I think it shows that some union members believe it's a 'game' to be 'played'. It's not a game. The dispute which started with unionists take strike action [however you wish to dress it up, that's what it was] is costing countless numbers of businesses money. It's not a game.

This isn't a game. I think that many union members, facing the prospect of not being paid, have realised the stakes. It's just a shame that many thought it a game when it was others [company, shareholders, suppliers etc] were the ones copping the financial penalty.

[Bankstown Boy]

Unfortunately I fear that 1A is dead right. I think that AJ's thought is that he can't lose. Either the PIA's are terminated and he wins, or he "loses" the FWA case but keeps QF grounded - replacing capacity with Jetstar.

I think that we all pretty much agree that has been his long term goal anyway - so what if he loses 25% of the corporate market, he'll operate a v large lcc.

[1a sound asleep]

If the planes are back flying AJ has lost. He would rather the planes remain grounded to the point of financial desperation. Then remove another 40 planes from QF service and then sack/make redundant 3000 employees. Transfer the 40 planes to JQ and away we go again. Those that want a job may beg to JQ.
Please dont fall into his hands:ugh:

[Baileys]

You start looking for a new job - do it before everyone else. Qantas is walking dead now regardless of what the outcome is. Look after number one and start applying for position tomorrow...or today.

Who would want to continue working for such a pack of pricks anyway.

Good luck all.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

If the planes are back flying AJ has lost.
Actually that's precisely what he is after. The aircraft back flying without the ability of the union to stop it. Surely you can see that?

[Gnadenburg]

No I can't see that PAF.

[Cargo744]

Sorry... but ability and Unions should not be used in the same sentence... unless it is preceeded by "lack of"

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

The aircraft back flying without the ability of the union to stop it.

No I can't see that PAF.

Right.. so you then believe
a) He doesn't want aircraft flying [and thus making money]
b) He want's aircraft flying with the ability of union to stop it

If you select A) or B) then you're a blind man walking around without a cane.

[1a sound asleep]

1. All unions withdraw all claims
2. Accept QF's offer. Its better than nothing
3. The matter must then be removed from FWA as there is no longer a dispute
4. There is no termination of action as there is no longer any action or grievance
5. 6/12/18 months down the track unions are free to do what they want

A far better plan than trying to fight OR having FWA force termination

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

FWA approved the unions actions, they shouldnt have the right to disable it now....qantas did this, they are the ones that need punishing

So your perspective is that a group of employees should be allowed to shut a company down on the basis of any pay claim, yet if a company responds with the only action that the Fair Work Act gives them, at all they should be punished?

This is Julia Gillard's legislation. She must be stoked. It's working precisely as designed.

[david1300]

@QF94 (post 259) - thank you for the answers, it is a pleasure to read thoughtful response and analysis.

I'm in the personal services/health sector (Natural Health Practitioners/Chiropractors/Weight Loss etc) living and working in Australia. Yep, my customers/clients are driven the price/value/quality equation.

You said: "The board having full knowledge during the AGM yesterday of the events that unfolded today, misleading their shareholders AFTER all their resolutions were passed is not a criminal act? Mr Joyce getting his 71% pay increase with the knowledge that he was going to bludgeon the travelling public 24 hours later is not a criminal act. The board creating a $20million a day cost to the company due to their industrial action? Locking out workers that weren't involved in any dispute is not a criminal act?"
Yes, they are not criminal acts. Where is the statute book are these listed as crimes? Some people may judge them as amoral acts, but morality is subjective. Some people (including Qantas employees) may think it's OK to hop the fence and have a dalliance with the neighbours wife, others (including Qantas employees) may not. This is their individual morality call. The law doesn't say it's a crime, and the same applies here.

Qantas was being crippled by the strikes and threats of strikes (by employees/unions). Potential passengers like me were already not flying Q in the past few weeks due to the work stoppages and threats. To us, this is the next step and an attempt to end the slow death. Friday 2 weeks ago I needed to be in Sydney for specific meeting. I cancelled my Q booking and rebooked JS as the legal impications to me of not being in Sydney were potentially $100k. I could not take the chance of my Q flight being delayed due to threatened baggage handler or engineer industrail action.

If you don't believe another board member can be trusted, probably better to leave now. But will it be better elsewhere?

You said: "Either way, losing a few hours/days wages or losing your job to be offshored for the likes of you who are price/value/quality driven. I don't know or care what you earn, but when the cost of living is rising faster than your wages, and believe me 3% doesn't cover the increase, you need to try and keep up. Companies want globalised wages for the workers. How about globalised cost of living?"
The likes of me, who is price/value/quality driven is the norm in the public. We won't pay more than we perceive is the value and quality - this goes for everything, not just airfares. And as per my example of my flying spend, you can see that Q had become priced above other options. This is borne out in another post/s that gave the % market share and how Q has fallen. People can complain as much as they like, but this is the reality of the world today. You can't buy cheap asian electrical goods, clothes & furniture yet try and force Aussies to buy expensive Q airfares. (You can possibly have globalised cost of living, but my guess is that it would have to go hand-in-hand with an equivalent standard of living.)

You said: "The answer to much of the above will be zero, with the exception of the food. I still have a choice with this. It may be a bit more expensive, and I mean maybe only 10% more, but I am supporting an Australian farmer. What's left of them. Why is this? Because we have let Australian jobs go overseas, growing other economies, while we are shrinking our own. This is exactly what is happening to QANTAS today."
The reason you don't have a choice is because of the choices you, I and every other Australian has been making. We no longer have mobile phones, TV's and electronics manufactured in Australia because the last manufacturer (Voxson) found Australians would not pay more for an Australian product; just as our Chesty Bonds are now made offshore, as are America's Levi jeans. This is the price/value/quality equation we apply to ALL aspects of life, including our choice of whether or not to pay higher airfares to fly on Q.

You said: "For a country of less than 25million people, we sure have the ability to be self-sufficient. We have all the natural resources we need, and we have the know-how to make it happen. Sure we need to trade with other countries, but we don't need to sell out to them or give them our jobs. Maybe we should adopt their protection policies. Asia certainly has protection policies.
We don't have the ability to be self-sufficient (maybe the know how, but definitely not the ability). Our steel industry is closing because even though we have hugh iron ore reserves, we don't have the capacity to convert it to usable steel (Newcastle). We hardly manufacture a stitch of clothing in Australia because Australians would not pay the premium prices needed to keep our clothing factories running and paying those wages. We have an insignificant electronics industry as Australian manufacturers cannot compete on cost with international suppliers (and not just Asia). We might have the know how, but we don't have the facilities, the capacity or the labour cost to manufacture at a price Aussies will pay.

I trust I have addressed your questions. Maybe not to your liking, but I have addressed them in the least.
Thank you for the civil and well thought through response. We don't have to agree, but by discussion we can each gain a better understanding of the issues. I have gained more understanding from your post than any other slagging and bagging post.

[Cargo744]

1A... for that to happen Sheldon and Purvinas would have to be thrown out the door. I can't see that happening.

[Jetsbest]

"The dispute which started with unionists take strike action..." What?

I thought it started when, after almost a year of unproductive "negotiations", each union approached FWA for a legally binding adjudication on which party had been negotiating "in good faith" up to that point.

Then FWA, having weighed the evidence, approved certain legally Protected Industrial Action options as a mechanism by which pressure might be applied in an effort to get the other, not-such-good-faith party-who-always-said-'no', back to the table.

After incremental (6 hours total) stoppages, and NONE from the pilots, AJ et al have imposed the most massive over-reactive penalty and given a glimpse of the lengths to which they are prepared to go to destroy any possibility that a lasting solution might be found.

I find this explanation the more plausible because, in the absence of a +5mil package, it's the long term employees who have the most to lose if management's irrational behaviour goes unchallenged. :(

[truthinbeer]

Even if FWA commands all to return to work tomorrow and Qantas to accept they have staff who might sign unattractive work contracts, this is the end of Qantas.

Alan Joyce has damaged the brand beyond the point where it can recover in a global market. No-one will forget that Qantas management chose to leave them stranded far from home, and they will not forgive. Would anyone here on PPrune feel comfortable booking their next holiday with Qantas?

[neville_nobody]

If they conceed the jobs are going to Asia anyway they are better off waiting it out. If Gillard sides with the company she will get pinned with offshoring australian jobs. The fwa ruling could become a political minefield too so let them make the
call

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

Employee lockout is Protected Industrial Action. The only kind allowable.

As I said, It can only be initiated in response to employee PIA. That's occurred.

a +5mil package Complete red herring. Firstly it's a 2 million salary. Secondly, you, me, everyone in Australia knows that if Joyce said tomorrow "No worries, I'll take $400k" the unions wouldn't agree to the QF offer on the table. So it's a distraction to discuss it.

Union members have been costing shareholders, suppliers etc. It's not pleasant for those locked-out but it's simple a case of finally receiving a response.

[peuce]

Possible scenarios ... unless there are others:


FWA suspends all action .... 21 days to get an agreement or have FWA come up with an agreement. I daresay that agreement will be more favourable for staff than management ... as management want the whole box and dice
FWA terminates all action ... and then comes up with its own agreement ... same as above
FWA does nothing ... then Government will call on its powers and decide on agreement ... see above


The bottom line is that the workers are likely to get something, but not fully what they wanted and management won't get what it FULLY wants ... which won't be enough for it. It's all or nothing for management.

What happens then? ... buggered if I know.

[Xeptu]

what happens then! Easy the board resolve to acknowledge the failings of its CEO and resolves to replace him. New CEO is appointed with a mandate to resolve the issue.

[Short_Circuit]

What happens then? ... buggered if I know. There will be a plan already on the sideline ready to go.
ie. QF must ground all 767s due to poor advanced bookings, then all 747s grounded same reason, Qf International will fly LHR & LAX only, team a380 will be the only engineers to survive the cull, A licenses will run the domestic.
JQ fly to RedQ hub where all the 787 call home.
20,000 QF staff dumped and on the dole queue.

[Going Nowhere]

But don't you get it? It's the BOARD that's rotten, not just the mouthpiece!

Get rid of AJ, in steps BB. :ugh:

[Fliegenmong]

20,000 QF staff dumped and on the dole queue.

AJ & LC sip champagne with Reith Minchin Howard & Costello and giggle as lives are devastated...Dixon comes over to join in of course

[Jetsbest]

"Employee lockout is Protected Industrial Action. The only kind allowable....."

But, instead of having said 'no' all this time then claiming "no other option", I would have thought that actual negotiation might proceed something like this:

"OK 'union X'. We feel that what you're asking is unreasonable for these reasons; a/b/c/d.
We can't agree to such limitations but we understand your concerns. We are prepared to discuss what it would take to be able to include you in QF's future. We will discuss our truthful cost comparisons, and intended target efficiencies with you. We will allow you to respond to those figures as a basis for finding common ground. We also undertake not to mis-represent your position and current conditions in the media if you refrain from the same; we regret that you were labelled kamikazes. We acknowledge that the overwhelming majority of QF staff have a vested interest in the success of QF and should be well-informed about the direction the company is taking. We look forward to an expeditious resolution to any differences of opinion and, therefore, working together in a new spirit towards a greater Qantas.
Right, so where do we start?....."

And then I woke up! :ugh:

ps Why is it that when a union stages a 1-hour protected action notified 3 days in advance, they're the scum of the earth but when the company grounds the whole fleet with 3 hours notice, the unions are again the scum of the earth? :hmm:

[Kipper101]

I'm in the personal services/health sector (Natural Health Practitioners/Chiropractors/Weight Loss etc)

quack
10char

[hotnhigh]

This could go either way. Qantas wants finality to a situation of it's own creation. The action of qantas of a lockout may be seen as appropriate but grounding the fleet? well, that's debatable.
What this has done has effectively sidelined the ir processes of fwa. Remember there were concilliation steps being undertaken. No resolution would of meant arbitration in due course. Qantas is attempting to accelerate that process without the arbitrator, ie fwa nor the other participants input. The interesting point now, will be how fwa views Qantas' approach. When final arbitration occurrs.

[Al E. Vator]

IMHO this whole 'Asianisation' threat is overblown.

The main intent is to get QF staff working more cheaply by whatever means that takes, the offshoring is an issue but not the main one.

The damage to the QF Brand is also overplayed. Korean Air and China Airlines (Taiwan) crashed aircraft all the time and yet still people fly with them. The Brand is resilient. Any publicity is good publicity.

The QG Legal folks will have analysed the legislation endlessly and will believe they are indestructible to be sure, pending FWA suspension/termination whatever.

Questions however arise from this action, the most evident of which are:
In the short term: did AJ fail to disclose information at the AGM that materially affects decision-making by all shareholders (not just Super-Fund buddies)? If so, is such failure to disclose legally punishable either against the individual or the corporation he represents?
There was a similar occurence after the failed private equity bid. GD stood up the next day and outlined a hugely different corporate strategy, one that should have been mentioned to shareholders - it was most certainly material to them. I suspect the law may be murky in this regard? Any lawyers out there to clarify this issue?

In the long term: Which QF Board and Management members stand to gain directly and/or indirectly from;
a) the offshoring of QF (ie: do past or present QF Board-Members or Management have shareholdings in say aircraft leasing companies who lease aircraft to any new QF-affiliated airline etc),
b) The long-term weakening of the QF share-price, repeal of the QF Ownership Act and potential takeover by QF Board/Management-connected individuals or corporations.

I can see real merit in that long post detailing the corporate ethic and the fact that the Board are devoid of any emotion except their own personal gain. The arrogance with which they are (successfully) manipulating Gillard is concerning and frankly just very sad.

As such, it would certainly be worthwhile seeing the Board reaction if the Federal Government went Chifley on the bastards!

Re-Nationalise QF, purchase majority shareholding (now very cheap thanks to Corporate buffoonery - I bought mine at $4.50). Keep QF in Australia and restore the company to the position it once was before the corporate pigs got their selfish snouts in the trough. I know it's a pipe-dream but it would be a might great trump card!

[rockapetransport]

Is there a possibility that the FWA could rule a "Termination" with the ALAEA and the TWU, and only a "Suspension" with the AIPA?

Additionally, any ideas on what the outcome for Qantas would be if the FWA ruled for a Suspension?

Is there anyway the board / AJ would be in legal trouble for not disclosing the grounding to the shareholders or the ASX?

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

And then I woke up!

Correct.

Point 1> Unions don't run the airline, the owners of the airline have selected a board to do that
Point 2> The unions' concept of 'bargaining in good faith' = 'give us what we asked for'.
Point 3> The previous AGM demonstrated that the Board had 96% support of the owners.

You need to be honest with yourself. The idea that people like Steve Purvinis choose the pay and conditions you work under, and will inflict wounds on a company until they agree is incorrect. The idea that it's 'bargaining in good faith' for people like Steve Purvinis to propose something a little beyond what he's after and expect the airline to accept 90% of what he asked for is incorrect.

If you are upset that the company ended up taking action in return, you should address those concerns to those you asked to represent you.

Yes it's not nice for the the QF staff effected. I feel aweful for their families. It's just a horrible shame that you've allowed Union reps to put you in this circumstance through unrealistic expectations.


You can't keep milking a cow that is sick.

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/QAN-ROE.png

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

from Fair Work Australia - QANTAS is arguing that customer confidence cannot be rebuilt if FWA issues a suspension. It can only be granted if a termination of Industrial Action is granted.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

from Fair Work Australia -- Unions appear to be arguing for themselves. Pilot's union is arguing that they shouldn't be involved in the lockout as they haven't taken the same action as the other unions.

Yes, this will take a long time. In the meantime, why not checkout some PPRuNe advertises on the bottom or top of this page or Alan Joyce on the Bolt Report: https://bitly.com/sO0d7e
Joyce interview is a few minutes in...

[Al E. Vator]

PAF why is the QF cow sick?

'Management' was given a complete airline when it privatised. Aircraft/Infrastructure etc. The fleet was a very sensible mix of 747/767/737. They didn't have to build-up their enterprise from scratch - it was all there for them. No entrepreneurial skill involved just walk in and off we go.

And how have we faired?

Now it is a disjointed horrible mess.

That share price graph is a simple condemnation of that terrible management.

This anti-union rhetoric was very appropriate in say 1974 but the world is a very different place. As somebody said (Xenophon?) this is management militancy at its worst. And as the Shareholders' Association pointed out, amidst this corporate failure the Management managed to get themselves massive pay rises and something like $55 million in salaries in the last 3 years.

Just because these militants wear suits is that more palatable?

With all due respect I think your 1970's pre-conceptions are blinkering the logic of what is actually happening here. The very graph you posted being all the evidence needed to depict managerial questionability personified.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

PAF why is the cow sick?

Quite simple. One of the riskiest S&P500 companies is returning less that a risk free investment.

Some figures:

Return on Assets: 1.22%
Return on Equity: 4.14%
Return on Investment: 1.76%
Return on CBA NetSaver Account: 4.75%

Think about that...

What's really sad is that the unions taking industrial action at the end of every EBA has increased the risk and as a result made QF's return appear even worse to investors.

[King William III]

PAF it has never been the intention of the workers to shut down the company.......and the fact that you think this is solely a pay claim shows you have no idea what is actually going on. do some research and come back with a balanced argument

PAF was a troll in the last dispute, spouting ill-educated nonsense at every opportunity….funny how he's resurfaced now!!

TROLL

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

from Fair Work Australia -- [subjective] Appears QANTAS isn't overly upset with pilots. Just the Engineers and TWU workers.

[mach2male]

Joyce has no emotional connection to Australia nor does he have any emotional connection to Qantas.
He is therefore the perfect scapegoat in all this.Leigh Clifford's scapegoat.
An Australian would have had seconds thoughts about pulling a stunt like this.
'89 is till vivid in most aviation memories.
This had been planned for at least two months with room nights being purchased in early September and CC managers despatched to LHR Singapore and LAX on Thursday.
Joyce has totally misread and misunderstood the Australian psyche and Australian history.He has done more damage to the Qantas Brand than any trade union could ever do.
This whole episode has been designed to use FWA to force the workforce into submission by denying them further PIA and force the Australian Government to amend the Qantas Sale Act
A ballsy but stupid bluff that will end his career in this country.
But the problem will remain with Qantas whilever Clifford is the Chairman.
This man is a smug dysfunctional elitist who makes Dixon look like a Choir boy.
When Joyce goes out the front door Clifford should follow

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

King William III (http://www.pprune.org/members/358825-king-william-iii)

Join Date: May 2011

Excellent contribution to the debate. Thank you.

[King William III]

from Fair Work Australia -- [subjective] Appears QANTAS isn't overly upset with pilots. Just the Engineers and TWU workers.


#leigh_howard
Q:admits that only real action on foot by the pilots is the red tie #Qantas


leigh_howard
Because the agreement with TWU is 'close', that favours suspension. but the pilots are v far from agreement, that favours termination #Qantas



tool.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

PAF apart from your FWA updates (if they aren't biased) you have had 0 contribution with you anti-unionist whinging

carry on

I've discussed the topic. Young King William III's contribution was purley ad hominem (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=NO5&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=4vCsTsGfFcmZiQfnrpDCDw&ved=0CCAQvwUoAQ&q=ad+hominem&spell=1)

[Mstr Caution]

I'd like to hear from the regulator.

CASA - PLEASE OUTLINE YOUR ACTUAL CONCERNS RELATED TO AVIATION SAFETY PERTINENT TO THE CURRENT QANTAS DISPUTE? WHAT COMMUNICATION HAVE YOU HAD WITH QANTAS MANAGEMENT?

MC

[Lex Talionis]

Apart from the obvious problems this represents not only for Qantas,it's employees and the travel industry in general but I think it also opens up a veritable pandoras box for industrial relations in Australia.

The real danger (if this is not bad enough) is that if this move to cease legal union industrial action by closing down the workplace is successful then it may very well create an industrial precedent.

If any Australian business is experiencing industrial action from a union or a number of unions representing it's workforce it may decide to take the 'QANTAS MANOEUVRE' and close down it's business to remove any union action or effect.

I wonder why QANTAS did not just ask for the FWA to intervene instead of taking the proverbial Bull in a china shop approach instead?

Memories of the domestic dispute are flooding back.

[Howard Hughes]

If the unions want a 'Blietzkrieg' of their own this is what I would suggest...

Walk in to FWA and accept what is on offer by the company but only for 12 months. This shows that you are negotiating in good faith, but the companies problems don't go away. In the meantime the share price fails to excite and institutional investors call for change at next AGM.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

The real danger (if this is not bad enough) is that if this move to cease legal union industrial action by closing down the workplace is successful then it may very well create an industrial precedent.

I think the real danger is quite the opposite. Unions can protest, cost a company tens / hundreds of millions; if the company responds, Fair Work steps in and says 'Hey, hey hey, that's enough of that!'

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

In the meantime the share price fails to excite and institutional investors call for change at next AGM.

More likely that institutional investors will stick with a man who is trying to reduce costs...

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Perhaps AIPA could print some red T'shirts with "QANTAS flight, QANTAS pilot" statement on them for us to wear in public on days off.

Sell them on Ebay, much easier this way.

[bankrunner]

I'd wear one when I'm flying as SLF.

[Howard Hughes]

Perhaps with a JT picture on the front...:ok: