AUGUST 24th - QANTAS

[600ft-lb]

You've never experienced a rockwell collins IFE system then romulus.

That system would be the single cause of the greatest amount of stress I could imagine cabin crew face on aircraft with that ground breaking system.

[Gingerbread]

Here's a further interview over the 17 August announcements. Action on the Qantas Sale Act?

Radio Australia:Connect Asia:Story:Qantas brand to perish in Asian expansion: union (http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/connectasia/stories/201108/s3295623.htm)

[WorthWhat]

Intrigued by the comment where Somerville saysThe union (ALAEA) is contemplating a court challenge; that this restructure (Qantasia) contravenes the terms of Qantas' 1995 privatisation.Am not a lawyer, but personally think there is not a lot of difference between (Jetstar - a Qantas Owned Company) and (Qantasia).

Given that AIPA also has/had a case alleging that Qantas could not operate internationally as Jetstar, could be that ALAEA's lawyers are on to something.

[600ft-lb]

Maybe the possible court action will focus on the intent of the legislation. If the intent of the legislation is argued to be that it was meant meant to stop the downsizing/elimination of the international brand by stealth maybe there could be an issue.

Of course Qantas management won't say anything in public to prejudice their agenda in favour of a challenger in possible court action.

As far as they are concerned whether they believe it or not privately, shrinking Qantas international to 3 main routes, 13 A380s and 9 B744s and no further investment on the horizon until it become a Jetstar replica, they believe(in public) there is no breaking of the law.

Remember its already been stated that no B787's will be coming to Qantas. Qantas management are obviously can't get over the fact that Australia is an end destination and not a hub. Qantas's plan from an outside perspective is to base itself somewhere in the middle of the earth so they can have the advantages of SQ, CX, EK etc. That's where the B787's will end up IMO.

At the end of the day it's a matter of political will if it ever gets more then 10 minutes airtime.

[clotted]

Given that AIPA also has/had a case alleging that Qantas could not operate internationally as Jetstar, could be that ALAEA's lawyers are on to something.
Maybe not. My Qantas friend tells me that Somerville was at AIPA when the first case was launched. He was let go by the current AIPA President so he tells me. It was then that AIPA terminated the court case I'm told.

[Capt Kremin]

Clotted. All correct.

[600ft-lb]

s5hEiANG4Uk

[Fris B. Fairing]

Posted by Romulus:
Someone thought it smart to align Qantas with the feel good emotions of childhood.

Sorry I missed the point completely. I don't speak marketingwanque.

[Gingerbread]

Firstly, for those so interested in the legal basis for AIPA's previous action in relation to breaches of the QSA, here's the link to AIPA's supplementary submission to the Senate inquiry on Sen Fielding's amendment to the QSA in 2007:

Parliament of Australia:Senate:Committees:Economics: Inquiry into the Qantas Sale (Keep Jetstar Australian) Amendment Bill 2007 - Submissions received (http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/economics_ctte/completed_inquiries/2004-07/qantas/submissions/sublist.htm)

Go to page 29 of AIPA's supplementary submission.

Bret Walker's opinion was the second - and confirming opinion - that Qantas was likely breaching the Sale Act.

Secondly, and to be fair to the AIPA President, he discontinued the court case because he had won the Presidency on a platform of "if we're nice to them, they'll be nice to us". Politically, he needed to follow through on that to keep faith with the 20-odd COM members who had elected him President.

Unfortunately, the deal he agreed on with Strambi that saw the Sale Act case dropped, was later ignored by Qantas.

Rumour is, the President may be a big enough man to resume the case. I have some confidence that it may be so.

Toodle-pip . . . must fly.

[Hadit]

Bring back Woodeye, he'll sort the Lep out.

[peuce]

Qantas has begun a $250 million project to bring its older Boeing 747 jumbo jets' interiors up to the standards of its Airbus A380 superjumbos.
The airline will upgrade the interiors of nine of its 747-400 aircraft, installing A380-style seats and improving in-flight entertainment.
“The new interiors will vastly improve the flying experience for tens of thousands of Qantas passengers every year,” CEO Alan Joyce said in a statement.

Well, this isn't going to inspire me to book QANTAS:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/sosvideo/Untitled.jpg

And ... you can get a lie flat bed on Air Asia for a pittance of what QANTAS asks for.

[Beer Baron]

Remember its already been stated that no B787's will be coming to Qantas.

Is that true? I know that it's been stated on PPRune often enough but has the company ever said that?
Don't get me wrong, I can see the writing on the wall and I'm as cynical of Qantas management as the next guy but I have never seen that intention stated formally.

[Dixons Millions]

Is that true?

I'll give you ten bucks if Qantas ever sees them. Hold me to t BB...

[noip]

BB,

Statement from FltOps briefings is that no 787's are slated for Mainline.

Of course, there will never be a Carbon Tax under this Government, either - so who knows?

N

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Rumour has it-

The business plan of flying for the group is about to be released for the next five years and it will show NO 787s coming to mainline in that period. Infact it will show a net contraction of mainline with the already announced deferral (believe unofficially cancelled) A380 orders, the 747 fleet being reduced to 9, A330s returning from Jetstar to mainline, down side being the retirements of the 767 which will outweigh the gain from the Jetstar hand me downs. No net gain for 737 fleet either.
Massive expansion for you know who though!!!

[Budfox]

Growing Footprint in Asia

Jetstar Asia rapidly growing, S$6.9m EBIT
45% growth since FY09

Singapore base providing strong capability for future growth in Asia
Significant growth in China – now serving Haikou, Shantou, Macau, Hong Kong and
Taipei
Entry into Japan

Jetstar Pacific
Significant improvement in results – close to break even
Fleet transition commencing October 2010 – to common Jetstar A320 fleet
Market continues to grow rapidly


Above quotes from annual reports says it all really, its going to be massive !!! :suspect:
Red bits highlighted to show return of capital LOL




http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/investors/2010InvestorPresentationSupplementary.pdf

Page 61

B787 deliveries from mid-2012, with Jetstar
receiving the Group’s first 15 B787s to
support international growth

Its there in 09/10 annual report for all to see :sad:

[breakfastburrito]

...down side being the retirements of the 767 which will outweigh the gain from the Jetstar hand me downs. No net gain for 737 fleet either.
Hey, but capital is going to where it will get the best return (domestic)! </sarc>.

Statements like that are just a smokescreen. Management are rolling the dice on Asian expansion. This is a massive gamble - it will either be a masterstroke or destroy Qantas.
To me, it looks like they can hide behind the massive growth for several years without being profitable, take out billions between senior managers and ride off into the sunset, leaving a the shareholder with a disaster. This is all about short term growth rates to justify huge bonuses.

[Keg]

Note too the age of the A330s returning to QF. Starting to reach the age where they become more maintenance intensive and thus require more $$$ to upkeep and less efficient to operate.

Note too that the original plan was the same for the 787s. J* operate them from new and then we start getting them (although that may be now the never never) when they're a few years old and again, closer to needing major maintenance.

Sacrificing the mainline carrier on the altar of the LCC.

[kellykelpie]

And ... you can get a lie flat bed on Air Asia for a pittance of what QANTAS asks for.

Gee - so Air Asia can offer a better product for less money. Let's see, how do we compete with that?:rolleyes:

[SpannerTwister]

Gee - so Air Asia can offer a better product for less money. Let's see, how do we compete with that?:rolleyes:

We're Qantas....People will pay whatever we charge just for the privilege of flying with Qantas !!

/Sarcasm

ST

[peuce]

Gee - so Air Asia can offer a better product for less money. Let's see, how do we compete with that?

Unfortunately, the days of booking with ones heart are over ... especially when one starts to find out about the real QF(Management) ... behind the singing kids.

I picked random days in November (out 5th, back 23rd) ex Melbourne

Air Asia - Premium with lie flat seat, a dodgy meal and the one airline all the way to London and back ... $4700

Qantas - Business Promo with a lie flat seat (I assume), a premium meal and a change of airlines in Singers .... $12500

That $7000 can buy a lot of travel insurance and warm beer in London.

Tell me why I should still choose Qantas ....

[Arnold E]

So tell me, you are definitely implying that I am too expensive to work on Aussie aeroplanes, well that's ok, tell me what you think I should be paid????

[Arnold E]

You know it's interesting, there are many people that tell me I am overpaid, but to date nobody that is prepared to tell me how much they think I should be paid.

[framer]

I'l have a crack Arnold, and I don't even know where you work, I assume yr an engineer. I'l preface it by saying that your employer needs to train you to a minimum standard and provide conditions that enable you to meet all regulatory obligations without undue fatigue or difficulty.

I think you should be paid $1 more than the amount at which you will leave in search of work elsewhere. (ie what the market thinks you're worth)

So by my book the salary should change depending on the demand for your skills, if the outfit down the road is willing to pay more, then you should be paid $1 more than it takes to keep you in your current job. (that doesn't mean $1 more than they are offering).

So what is Arnold worth? That depends on the labour pool he is part of. If the companies that need his skils can only draw from an Australian labour pool he'd be worth quite a lot. If they could access a global pool then he'd be worth significantly less.
What is happening to the labour market this decade?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Looks like mainstream Australia have worked out the real announcement of Aug 24th. Double profit, sack 1000 employees.

Gen Y's only undivided loyalty: the demands of Brand Me (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/gen-ys-only-undivided-loyalty-the-demands-of-brand-me-20110903-1jrly.html)

[3 Holer]

The girl makes some very good points. She should ring Julia.;)

[Jack Ranga]

Yep, when you get angry there's always someone who'll point out to you: karma.

Geoff Dixon certainly hasn't tasted what's coming to him through Karma and I doubt Buchannan or Joyce will taste it. Being sacked won't hurt them, they'll have already stashed away millions.

Gerry Harvey is a real piece of work, if you think the filth that departs the mouths of the above is bad have a listen to the musings of Harvey. :yuk:

He has said in public that one of the things that holds businesses back in Australia is that we don't have a ready supply of illegal labour that will work for virtually nothing (i.e. Mexicans in the USA). This from a multi billionaire.

I love going to Harvey Norman stores, he has a huge range of goods that I can compare alongside each other. I then go home, research on the net the product and make a decision where I will buy. It doesn't matter if Harvey Norman are cheaper, I will never spend my money there.

When people start making principled decisions about where they will spend their money, karma will start to bite a few of these arseholes. In my view, Qantas is going to be taken to the brink before we get our airline back. I'm not going to spend my money there anymore. I will when the pigs with their noses in the trough are ousted.

I like a lot of what Borghetti at Virgin is doing. From my limited understanding of the pay deal at VA, he had personal involvement and a reasonable deal was struck that bettered employment conditions. All without the 'continual ****!ng whinge' that comes from Qantas management about how the sky is going to fall while on the other hand announcing record profits.

Yep, principled, values driven management. Let's hope that there's enough money in the tin until things turn around there.

[Romulus]

You've never experienced a rockwell collins IFE system then romulus.

That system would be the single cause of the greatest amount of stress I could imagine cabin crew face on aircraft with that ground breaking system.

Sure, it's a pain in the arse. Panasonic will be so much better etc. But that's not what the image represented.

Sorry I missed the point completely. I don't speak marketingwanque.

It's pretty straight forward. People don't generally buy on fact, they buy on emotion. It's all around you in your chosen industry, the feel good factor of holidays, what it makes you feel like, how you will be refreshed etc as opposed to the facts that where you are going is just a tarted up part of an entirley normal country/city etc etc etc. Heck, it's why people choose Qantas instead of cheaper airlines that are just as safe, just as efficient etc. It's why the "Australian Icon" resounds so successfully with people.

Revisionism is a very powerful emotion, very few people look backwards with a genuinely critical view, we all remember the "good old days" which, in general, were more "normal" than "good". That's what the advert plays on, the feel good factor of what now seem like carefree days as kids when we didn't have to worry about job security, mortgages etc.

[TIMA9X]

lWUBecSX5YQ

"This is all about big investment in Australia" AJ

[TIMA9X]

_-a13Rx_QPo

[QF22]

Have a look in the SE Asia forum.
Longreach Aviation Services recruiting A320 pilots.
I haven't heard of em b4 but I am not a pilot.
It's gotta be sumtin to do with QF and JQ?
GLTA !

[1a sound asleep]

0414 425 825 Longreach Aviation Resources Australian contact

A320 A330 and B787 on order . Perm position with large airline.

Pretty Obvious http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/download/file.php?id=5445&sid=46487e8d5e0fb56a136560a077dedf78

[whatdouknow]

In regards to the Alan Joyce Avalon Press Circus video just before...

Smoke and Mirrors? or downright lies...?

From what I understand the Avalon Contractors (not even Qantas) had to sign their lives away with a substandard and early EBA for the work.

If they didn't, the work would go OS to Hong Kong.

Told it was going to be 24mths work when the reality is about 14mths, less 6 weeks for Certification.

From what I am told, there are 600 people at Avalon with about 40 or so Qantas employees (mostly Management and Leading Hands) so the future after this is apparently 737's. Used to be 900 about 6 years ago from information being told.

Sounds like they will poach 737's from Melbourne... so it sounds like a loose - loose situation for Australian Maintenance and Qantas in Australia.

[spelling_nazi]

Lets not lose sight of the fact that Joyce is very loose with the truth. It's easy to lose sight of the big picture. But stay loose people. :8

But what would I know?

[crosscutter]

Also worth stirring the pot by saying the Asian contact number is a Hong Kong number.....And that we carried a number of Jetstar exec's (1st class of course) there last month

[Keg]

Longreach is nothing to do with QF/ J* execs. More to do with a conglomerate of pilots- good blokes too the ones that I know of. I can't vouch for the business systems and processes being perfect but I can vouch for a couple of the blokes behind the strategy.

[Long Bay Mauler]

We have positions available for Captains and First Officers on the following aircraft types:
B744, B767, B737, A330, A320 and Dash 8

Strange that all the types exactly match QF Group types ???

[teresa green]

Longreach? What a bloody good idea, start all over again, this time with pilots and engineers running the show. Well ok, ONE beancounter. Where do we sign up?

[Jethro Gibbs]

Your on the ball there they had to sign their lives away with a substandard and early EBA for the work ALAEA not so eager to to publish that to much though but the notice is on there web site with the first aircraft underway its already going pear shaped with documentation errors.

[600ft-lb]

I would put money down that this is almost certainly a windup with ulterior motives.

During the last EBA dispute, the infamous "HEAVY JET LAME'S" ad's popped up in the newspaper, never actually intending to employ anyone who applied, moreso as a lure to see how many were willing to sell their soul.

I'm sure this shelf company which has just popped up is just throwing the fishing line out to see how much support the AIPA and continuted industrial action is really out there all so they can plan their next tack.

All brought to you from our favourite IR consulting company no doubt.

[Mr Leslie Chow]

Yep I think you are well and truly on the money there 600.

Guys don't fall for the traps, the race to the bottom is going faster and faster!

[Keg]

Nope. Both off the mark.

[The The]

So a conglomerate of "good blokes", being current QF pilots, have hitched onto AJ's wagon to assist in the downfall of QF International and 1800 jobs?

Smells like the cabin crew deal where a former union rep started a crewing company making himself rich on atrocious pay and conditions his casual workforce endured as the sole new supplier of crew to QF.

Am I missing something?

[Barry Mundy]

Keg

Please tell me P...r B.....n is not involved in Longreach.

[adsyj]

Don't know what to think about this. I hope they are not current QF Pilots, that would be a kick in the guts.

At the same time I guess it is a free world and maybe these guys see the writing on the wall and have got in first.

Either way we are going down and this is what we have to look forward to.

[mohikan]

Barry

PB is not involved. If he was, no-one would go to work for that company for all the obvious reasons.

Like Keg, I know the guys involved and I can vouch for them in terms of their integrity and the genuine reasons for setting up a new crewing company. I am not involved personally with the company BTW.

The bottom line is that there will be 700 mainline jobs gone by 2015, based on fleet retirements. Qantas can agree to all of AIPA's demands tomorrow, including scope, and it won't matter a tinkers cuss because QF international, as a business, will not survive given what is being done to it by senior management.

All the Longreach guys are trying to do is provide options, offshore (not in Aust) for those crew who are going to be made redundant.

The desire is to do this in a way which is different then the other crewing companies out there (Parc, Rishworth ect ect) which looks after the pilots better from a administrative, tax and welfare perspective.

There is no conspiracy.

[mcgrath50]

So I'm correct in saying in summary, it's established by generally respected guys from QF to crew airlines overseas and/or in Australia but NOT Qantas?

[mohikan]

McGrath.

Thats my understanding. Its not designed to provide a crewing option to Qantas mainline.

Qantas mainline is getting rid of pilots, not hiring them.....

[OneDotLow]

Being in the bottom 700 pilots at QF, I have had in depth discussions with one of the Longreach guys. I've known him for years, can vouch for him and believe his interest lie firmly in finding jobs for anyone who signs up, but in particular the guys who QF shafts.

The other two involved in the setup have extensive experience working contracts with the other mobs out there and they just want to "do it better" re conditions/contract commissions/employer-employee relations etc.

Just my $0.02, but I know for sure that QF have nothing to do with this in any other capacity than potentially supplying a bunch of well trained out of work pilots.

[Oldmate]

McGrath, you got it. Just a couple of guys setting up a business. No conspiracy. In fact very good intentions, already helping guys find LWOP contract opportunities, and ready to help anyone if redundancies do occur. I can assure you these people will do nothing to undercut any Qantas group pilot.

[Ken Borough]

Just a thought on Longreach: if it's all above board and a genuine attempt to create a business and 'help' the displaced, why isn't there any transparency with respect to 'who we are'? If the principals are really 'good guys' as suggested, surely they should not have any problems with disclosure etc?

[adsyj]

Fair enough, couple of highly respected posters giving Longreach a wrap is good enough for me.

I'm going to make contact and see how it goes.

Ladies and Gents I ask you indulge me in a minor vent.

I think I'm beat. I"'m tired of feeling anxious all the time, bought my first home and settled on August 24, can you believe it. It is bloody stressful just not knowing what my future holds, I'm sick of it. I'm sure I don't have a long term future here at Qantas. Luckily I'm single no kids (just a whingeing girlfriend who complains I'm away to much having a good time and boring when I get home). Morally I want to do the right thing by my pilot brothers and sisters . I want to maintain and grow my career, don't want to screw anybody just want to finish what I started and have worked bloody hard for. Neither do I want to sound like a sook but deadset I am mentally drained by all this ****. I know this has happened to plenty before me and will surely happen again, but it sucks thats for sure.

Bloody hell I do sound like a cry baby, didn't mean to just wanted to vent a bit. I have to toughen up. I have had a dream ride and I am gonna refocus and move onwards and upwards.

Mohican and Keg thanks for the intel re Longreach.

Fark I'm almost embarrassed with what I wrote above, I know blokes who are gonna be worse off than me due to family kids etc, but this has been on my mind and I wanted to get it out. No disrepect to anybody else, hopefully everybody gets a good outcome.

Couple of spoons of harden up coming my way.

Cheers and thanks for listening.

[Mr Leslie Chow]

As you have said adsyj you have had a 'dream run'.

If you had not have you would realize that stringing things out and also creating uncertainty for future promotion etc etc is all standard playbook management tactics.

I think you are better to focus on your new home and your girl. I'm all for checking out options mate, but don't stress out.

If management read posts like yours they would be happy to see that their crap is working. It's not the end of the world, just chill out. :cool:

[Oldmate]

Ken, use the contact us part of their website and they will happily tell you who they are and what they are doing.

[Capt Kremin]

I had dinner in a slip port a couple of nights ago with my crew and a 744 crew. Four of the six were actively looking for other jobs.

I wonder if anyone in senior management has bothered to total up the cost of training they have invested over the years in these guys... And how much of a free kick they are about to give their competitors?

How many tens of millions will be wasted.....??

If the costs could be quantified.... as a shareholder I'd join a class action in a nano second....:ugh:

Alan, you and your sorry excuse for a Board have got to go.....

[bucko70]

ADSJY
NEVER apologise for what is a stressful and difficult situation.
Given the strong feeling and mounting evidence that Qantas is NOt going down the gurgler and instead propping up its LCC, you are justified in feeling the way you do.

[Mud Skipper]

adsyj,

Don't apologise, most of us are just totally over it. For what seems like years we have been at war with a self-serving board who spend more time and effort attacking their workforce than running the principle airline. Their pathetic attempt to try and force us all into Jetstar, on lesser conditions, continues to fail as they have underestimated what, above pay and promotion, it means to most of us to work in Qantas. They don’t get it and never will but will destroy the airline trying.
So few have actually gone to Jetstar it must be really frustrating their master plan, fact is most would prefer to leave and work for anyone else rather than yield assist in the destruction of our airline by these parasites who sit at their desks plotting whilst we are out flying, engineers fixing and FA’s serving. That the majority of politicians sit by and watch this all unfold is sadly hardly surprising.
Take to girlfriend out for a walk, it costs nothing, don’t talk about Qantas etc, just give yourselves a chance to relax.
Hopefully AIPA is up to the task otherwise the world doesn’t end we just will find ourselves working overseas. It will be sad to see Qantas go the way of Ansett but it looks like a 50-50 ATM, stuffed if I understand what world the major shareholders live in, Cloud Fairyland I think.

Think I’ll go and get me an A380 endorsement before I leave! (Fm)

[73to91]

as a shareholder I'd join a class action in a nano second
I have been wondering how far off a different type of 'class action' was:

- FF's being shunted onto JQ - when they only wanted and booked (so they thought) QF
- Having to then pay for meals when placed on these flights?
- Having no response from QF when complaining about the above practices

I would have thought a number of high profile FF's would have had enough and directed questions to the ACCC perhaps?

[adsyj]

Mr Chow, Bucko and Mudskipper

Thanks for the supportive words and sage advice. I do feel a bit silly about my post and contemplated pulling it but I realise there are probably plenty of us feeling the same way and maybe others that are feeling stressed will also benefit from the support you blokes have shown.

Foolishly I have felt uncomfortable about raising this at work and I probably should have said something to a Skipper or Senior FO and I might not of ended up so bloody tense and out of sorts.

My girl is not really a whinger and I haven't been myself so it has been a bit rocky on that front, and that is my fault. The mortgage isn't that huge and I have saved hard but suddenly one day you look and the Bank Account is empty, replaced by a nice Unit with a mortgage attached and a message from QF that I can expect to lose my job. Blah. I admit it scared me.

Anyway I have had a swim and cleared my head a bit, going to take my lovely girl for dinner tonight and apologise for being a turd and just bloody well get on with it. There are plenty of people worse of than me.

Cheers again and it really does feel better just to get it out.

[framer]

Hey adsyj, you sound like you need someone to vent to in real life.
All blokes are allowed one person to tell their worries and stresses to, thats your missus :)
No problem with posting it on here but it's not as effective as cracking a cold beer and mulling it over with her. If you can do that then you'l feel heaps better straight away and an added bonus, she won't think you're a moody w@nker:ok: I had one marriage where I made the mistake of keeping what was bothering me to myself and I'm in another one where things like that are a sort of interesting intelectual topic of conversation. The latter is working much better for me.
Have a good night out.

[Mud Skipper]

Maybe not too much though, my wife spends more time reading this forum than I do and it really doesn't help at all.

I'm surprised more pilots arn't feeling the need to be so open, there has been a dramatic destruction of a future here in Australia. Heck I'd suggest half the reason for the Drug and Alcohol (DAMPS) course is because they know the stress they intended to put us under and wanted to cover their asses.

I guess you're living on the eastern beaches if your'e swimming and feeling like a turd. Perhaps use a pool instead:}

[prairiegirl]

much appreciated.

[CaptCloudbuster]

LONGREACH AVIATION RESOURCES: Flight Crew Resourcing (http://www.longreachaviation.com/)

[unionist1974]

Guys and Gals ,
The good fight is being fought , but I wonder who is really listening , the public have a very short attention span . Could the campaign is becoming a tad stale ? Time to ramp it up, go for the media grabbing headlines .
"Qantas passengers stranded overseas , due to Pilot strike " Then again perhaps not . Time to be sensible and negotiate a way out that allows Pilots to come back again . What do you think ?

[adsyj]

Framer

That is exactly what I have been doing, bottling it up. I reckon it is either ego or embarrasment that my career is in trouble and there is a very real chance I might have to head overseas to continue. You give good advice:ok:

Mud

Nah I'm in Gods Country on the peninsular. The only thing any state govt has done for us was build the ocean outflow. Still plenty of turds but most of them are on land now:D

Anyway have truly appreciated the feedback and support. I'm still a little embarrassed letting it all hang out but you blokes have been great. Thanks again

[an3_bolt]

I am sure the guys and girls at PAN would have an ear to listen to things, possibly good for a sounding board to bounce ideas off or even look for any suggestions or ideas not thought of. :ok:

[Uncashed Pilot]

ADSYJ you are actually in an enviable position , no kids the worlds your oyster , there is plenty of jobs overseas so you will never lose you house. You just may have to live in another country , you have a choice, QF is starting a new airline im sure theyll employ you and youll get a command quicker. Pay off your house quicker while its rented.
Its all progress.....

[Jethro Gibbs]

Longreach says everything but who they are.
Oh thats it they are QANTAS

[C441]

Posted without comment:

Soften-the-fck-up-encourages-men-to-share-their-feelings/ (http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2011/07/soften-the-fck-up-encourages-men-to-share-their-feelings/) - caution - course language warning

Beyond Blue (http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?)

[TBM-Legend]

AIPA sound like Ju-liar beating up on the High Court.....

cry babies!

[Oldmate]

Oh TBM, you are a very sad individual.

[A/F Armed]

No ABN not registered as a company, so how legit can it really be?

[ejectx3]

Seriously, what kind of twisted, evil, screwed up souls get their kicks from gloating and baiting in forums such as these when decent Australians are in danger of losing their livelihoods? The engineers and pilots are trying to keep a great company from being destroyed by morons and at the same time keep their families fed, and there are managers who post here laughing at any setback to their cause. I am totally disgusted at these wastes of oxygen.

How can these people look at themselves in the mirror and not have to avert their eyes?

[DrPepz]

Anyone noticed Jetstar has reduced SIN-AKL from daily to 5 weekly and now 4 weekly till the end of November?

SQ is 12x weekly to AKL and 5x weekly for the Northern Winter schedule and double daily into AKL and daily to CHC.

The dumb thing is you can't book AKL-SIN-FRA or AKL-SIN-LHR from the QF or JQ sites.

And with SQ starting SCOOT with the 777s with a capacity of 410 in a 3-4-3 config with INFLIGHT INTERNET, They can send Scoot on any potential 3K longhaul route and dump capacity to kill them.

Clap Clap Alan Joyce for revealing your plans years in advance. SQ is not going to the press every other day to reveal their plans for SCOOT.

In the rights alloction for Haneda Airport, 14 slots were given to Singapore carriers. The different carriers must put forward a business case to CAAS as to why they should be allocated the rights, and how doing so facilitates the growth of air traffic through Singapore.

Why was Jetstar not awarded the rights? Because Haneda a good airport for connections to other domestic points. SIA could argue that they would give seamless connections for their pax via Haneda to numerous Japanese cities. Jetstar as an LCC was unable to argue this as they largely sell point to point, and certainly do not have any partner at Haneda to transfer connecting pax to.

There is currently an unused daily slot into Narita which is not used by any Singaporean carrier. Jetstar has not taken up that slot.

Now, Scoot's 777s will have a capacity of 410. Jetstar's A330s have a capacity of 303. In the business case to CAAS as to which carrier should be allocated the rights, Scoot can very easily say that they can carry 33% more pax than Jetstar can, and put a very strong case forward as to why they deserve the rights.

Perhaps Jetstar can argue that they have the feed via SIN from the QF Group, whereas Scoot will be managed independently from SQ and SQ will not feed pax into Scoot and vv.

However after 7 years of watching 3K grow out of SIN, SQ is not going to take their expansion lying down. And why should they?

On another note, SQ is also quietly going 24 weekly to PER (14 for QF) and 10 weekly to ADL (3 for QF) and 24 weekly to BNE (7 for QF) for the Australian summer.

[DutchRoll]

AIPA sound like Ju-liar beating up on the High Court.....

cry babies!

I see the overall quality of your contributions to the Qantas debate still approximates that of the Great Wall company to Australian motoring.

And why didn't you say "AIPA sound like Howard beating up on the High Court after the "Wik" decision"? Selective memory eh? Truth is that sometimes the judgements go your way and sometimes they don't. The Court's decision simply reflects the apparent legal freedom corporations in Australia have to be completely shonky. It doesn't say how sincere or genuine they are - just that some judges don't reckon they're technically breaking the law. People have every right to be irritated about that.

[Anthill]

Good links C441 :ok:

If you really want to enjoy the spleen venting, use the company Employee Assistance Program. With this, the counsiling is FREE to you as QF will be sent the bill. Talking out your worries knowing that the company is paying would have a definite theraputic effect.:p

It is annoymous too.. the only information the company will get is that a staff member from such-and-such department-attended-and-please-find-the-invoice-attached.

It sounds fair to me that if management is causing such grief then the company should pick up the tab ;)

[adsyj]

Yeah Cheers for that C441.
I have had some great advice from you blokes special thanks to Framer.

I don't want people to think I am a nutcase I just think the timing of buying a new place and the water torture that management is applying to its staff coupled with the fact that I refused to discuss my worries with anybody just got me down.

I have taken some positive steps at home and am going to deal with whatever comes with the help of my girlfriend and others. What I will not be doing is keeping it to myself. Was able to open up to my girl last night and she was so supportive. Top girlxx

I understand we are all in the same boat dealing with a ****ty situation.

Thanks everyone who offered advice can't say I am not still nervous about what lies ahead but I am one of many not just at Qantas but all round Australia. Think of the poor buggers at Bluescope.

It's all good this end, resume normal transmission.

By the way thanks Mods for the leeway I know it was a bit off topic and this is an important thread to keep open.

Cheers all.

[Worrals in the wilds]

beyondblue: the national depression initiative (http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?)
Lifeline Australia 13 11 14 - Suicide Prevention, Crisis Support & Mental Health services - Lifeline | Connect with someone who cares (http://www.lifeline.org.au/)

For anyone who feels it is all getting A Bit Too Much, these guys are worth a call. I imagine that they're getting a lot of calls in the current economic climate (and probably a fair few from Federal ALP MPs :}).

Seriously, 'toughening up' is about as effective as filling Lake Eyre with a hose if you're feeling really depressed/anxious. Nor does Dr Dan Murphy have all the answers and not everyone has a supportive partner.

Even if your partner is supportive, if your image/ego depends partially on being a :cool: 'n' cocky pilot you may find it hard to speak to people you're close to. Sometimes talking to someone you don't know (and whose opinion you don't care about) can be a hell of a lot easier.

Both the above are anonymous and no-one needs to know that you called.
(edit; oops, second time for BB).

[rmm]

This should add fuel to the fire

Qantas chief Alan Joyce's pay package soars (http://www.theage.com.au/business/qantas-chiefs-pay-soars-20110907-1jx7b.html)

Qantas chief's pay soars
Matt O'Sullivan
September 7, 2011 - 2:52PM

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has received a 71 per cent increase in his total pay to $5 million, making him one of the highest paid airline chiefs in the world.

The boost to Mr Joyce’s total pay comes amid a bitter industrial dispute between management and key unions representing pilots and aircraft engineers over pay and conditions.

Qantas’s annual report, released today, reveals Mr Joyce earned a total of $5 million for the year to June 30, compared with $2.9 million a year earlier. Qantas’s share price fell 16 per cent over the same period, while the airline's profit doubled.
Advertisement: Story continues below

Mr Joyce's latest package includes $2.04 million in fixed pay and $2.2 million in short-term benefits.

All of Qantas’s senior leadership team received a boost to their total pay in a year in which the company more than doubled its annual net profit to $249 million.

Jetstar’s chief executive, Bruce Buchanan, received a total package of $1.4 million, compared with $1.1 million a year earlier, while Qantas’s operations chief, Lyell Strambi, saw his pay rise from $1.2 million to $1.7 million.

The second-highest paid executive was Rob Kella, Qantas’s former chief risk officer who officially left the airline on July 1 ‘‘as a mutually agreed termination’’.

His pay package for the year totalled almost $1.8 million, compared with $1.26 million in 2009-10. Mr Kella did not receive a termination payment nor a payment in lie of notice.

The chairman of the airline’s remuneration committee, James Strong, said in the annual report that the board had achieved ‘‘what we believe is an appropriate mix of fair reward, retention of key executives and alignment with the interests of the shareholders of Qantas’’.

‘‘This has been a year where company performance has been good relative to the challenges faced, and where a strong performance by management has produced what is, in the circumstances, a satisfactory profit outcome,’’ he said.

[bandit2]

‘what we believe is an appropriate mix of fair reward, retention of key executives and alignment with the interests of the shareholders of Qantas’’
Interest`s of shareholders???????? Where are the dividends you greedy &^%$$%%^^^&^&!!!!!!

[neville_nobody]

what we believe is an appropriate mix of fair reward, retention of key executives and alignment with the interests of the shareholders of Qantas

Whilst destroying the airline and the share price:mad:

[Jabawocky]

‘‘This has been a year where company performance has been good relative to the challenges faced, and where a strong performance by management has produced what is, in the circumstances, a satisfactory profit outcome,’’ he said.


Ok....if that is fair and reasonable...........stop screwing the workforce over :ugh:

[dreamjob]

Wasn't he was quoted saying he is getting paid LESS NOW than when he was CEO of J*?

Yeah right.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Really the ALAEA needs to up the action given this news .

[unionist1974]

well , where are you guys ? in the light of this news , surely some fair dinkum action !

[600ft-lb]

Few interest points in the annual report 2011.

Qantas Group
Rolls-Royce settlement revenue 95 MillionThe QF32 and consequential groundings of all the A380's affected the Qantas International segment but the settlement goes to the group?

Passenger service fees 2011 $341million 2010 $295million"service" fees. Right.

Alan Joyce Shares 2011 - 721,255 2010 - 138,255Nice 'performance' targets set by the board. Share price at a record low and still 600,000 shares are issued. Nice.

Travel Entitlements An annual benefit of trips for these Executives and eligible beneficiaries during employment, at no cost to the
individual, as follows: Alan Joyce 4 International 12 Domestic Bruce
Buchanan 2 International 6 DomesticBut pilots are 'greedy' asking for a a single trip ? Hypocritical.

Qantas Performance – STIP Outcomes in 2010/2011
Underlying PBT for 2010/2011 increased by 46 per cent to $552 million.
Management’s contribution to this result was by way of a combination of co-ordinated responses to the challenges of the year, plus the
successful implementation and achievement of benefits from a number of key strategic initiatives:
—— Re-allocation of aircraft capacity within the Qantas network to re-establish services impacted by the grounding of A380 aircraft powered
by Rolls-Royce engines
—— Customer care initiatives to assist customers affected by the volcanic ash disruptions, and the earthquake, tsunami, cyclone and flood
events which resulted in such devastation in the key communities and markets that Qantas servesLucky we had the management there to do all of this singlehandedly. Here have a payrise and a few million shares.

Depreciation and amortisation 2010 Qantas ($1,069million) Jetstar ($17million)Depreciation and amortisation 2011 Qantas ($1,124million) Jetstar ($71million)Which balance sheet gets the privilege to depreciate the 9 x A330's on 'lease' to JQ International ? What about the 5 x A320's on 'lease' to JQ domestic ?

[bandit2]

Weren't these leeches on a 3 year wage freeze? Obviously these ludicrous bonus etc aren't considered there wage.

[ampclamp]

Qantas boss wins 71pc, $2m pay hike | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/qantas-boss-wins-71pc-pay-hike/story-e6frf7jo-1226131590723)

here's a slap in the face folks. $200 travel vouchers and AJ gifted a motza

[twentyyearstoolate]

The current world we live in with all the CEOs running off with bank loads of cash, whilst the "workers" struggle, have no job security, and many losing their jobs is a DISGRACE!!

It's got to come to a time when the public revolt and stop these thieves! :mad:

[600ft-lb]

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/9817944.jpg
http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/9817956.jpg

[UPPERLOBE]

Is it just me?

Blind Freddy can see what's going on here.

I for one hope that some cashed up Russian or Yank gets a whiff of the share price and scoops the pool.

[Cancel Speed]

But a Qantas spokesman said Mr Joyce’s salary was not excessive compared with what chief executives at other large Australian companies received.

Who are these large Australian companies that are being referred too? and what kind of profits are they making? are they about to make 1000 ppl redundant?

Does anyone know what AJ's salary is like compared with other airline CEOs around the world?

[josephfeatherweight]

WTF? I am lost for words... How is this justified? Who allows this to happen? How CAN this happen? I would argue that nobody is worth $5 million dollars, but an inept manager who has allowed a once proud national icon to wither to its current state? Seriously, I am struggling to put into words how angry this makes me feel - what is the world coming to... A VERY disappointing turn of events.

[unionist1974]

Why are the Union Chiefs not up in arms about this ? Maybe the Chairmans Club Membership ! Well guys come on deny it ( NO i do not mean the little guys such as SP who no one listens to and would be never given membership , but the big unions reperesenting manufacturing workers ) Yes , you with the Chairmans Lounge Membership , WHAT are you going to do?

[Worrals in the wilds]

Airline CEO Compensation Roundup (http://travel-industry.uptake.com/blog/2010/05/04/airline-ceo-compensation/)
An interesting article about the US scene from 2010.

"In the case of the legacy carriers - the bigger the company, the bigger is the compensation for the CEO. They’re more concerned with stock price than actual earnings. But in this case, the biggest companies also happen to be the biggest loss-makers, so ironically enough – a bigger loss corresponds to a bigger CEO compensation package".

[Nudlaug]

Speechless......

This either is a plot to provoke the employees or the recklessness of this board is just staggering

[ohallen]

Dont forget this is a case of the architects (ie Board) rewarding the implementer of their plans. Every staff member has the right to feel VERY p....ed off not just for the plan but the deceptions that go right to the top of this inept organisation.

The more pain this lot inflict on workers, the higher the rewards, regardless of long term consequences or inherent risk of their acts and any considerations of long term company value.

Shame shame shame, but do not expect it to change.

[The Green Goblin]

Personally I'd pay double that to keep John Borghetti at Virgin.

While Joyce is busy with his faulty calculator working out his next KPI bonus, the sharks are circling.

Cathay will withdraw from oneworld and poon Qantas in the harbour. SIA and Virgin will stitch up Qantas in Oceania.

Qantas will be left without a date, no network and no friends. BA will cut Australia loose and focus on their EU/US operations and blocking Emirates. Qantas will become a domestic airline with codeshare partners feeding it's domestic operations.

P.s you don't really think Qantas will get those a330s back? I sense the new Asian airline might need a few wide bodies :mad:

Look who QF is in bed with. BA? AA? These airlines make Qantas look world class!

I'd suggest those who have not already tried the new Virgin product, give it a go. It's impressive! The staff are all smiles and there is an energy in the air which is contagious.

[UPPERLOBE]

Qantas will become a domestic airline...

1992 - 2012, guess it only took 20 years, aye. :E

[Cancel Speed]

My thoughts...

330 back to QF, some 787s for the Qantas regional/domestic stuff but most of the 787s go to the new mob and Jetstar AU and SIN. - the way its going mainline won't need the range of the 787.

But I wonder why AJ has not spelt out his plans for the 787 considering he has told the whole world about his other expansion/contraction plans.
I would of thought this would be a key feature in his plans to make the INTL side profitable again, that is if he was serious about it.:confused:

[Dixons Millions]

tripe (trp)
n.
1. The rubbery lining of the stomach of cattle or other ruminants, used as food.
2. Informal Something of no value; rubbish.

That's you AJ....

[1a sound asleep]

I see all 787 being operated by Jetstar only. If there are some in QF colours they will be wet leased to QF at a huge cost. And they got these at a low bulk price and again JQ gets all the benefits

[TIMA9X]

.
MDFdESF9KxI


The last few months in a song I guess.... hope you enjoy it, it's a great song, the lyrics reflect how I and I think a few others on here feel at the moment..

.

[33 Disengage]

It's amazing, the value of the company declines 25%, the owners of the company get paid nothing (for the 3rd year running), management is at war with it's employees, and they think that's worth a 71% payrise.

Bring on the no-confidence vote at the AGM!

[breakfastburrito]

Qantas boss wins 71 per cent, $2m pay hike
QANTAS chief Alan Joyce has been rewarded with a $5 million salary package for his work this year in restructuring the airline, despite giving 1000 workers their marching orders.

The massive 71 per cent increase comes on the back of the $552 million profit announced by Qantas and the airline's strategy to set up an Asian offshoot to help stem losses from its international business.

The rise earned the immediate wrath of Qantas unions, which have been fighting the airline over wages and condition claims for months.

Mr Joyce's package rose from $2.94 million in 2010 to $5 million this financial year.

It also comes as Qantas shares have dived in value this year and the airline's international division lose more than $200 million.

Mr Joyce was among the top echelon of Qantas executives whose total salary packages rose from $8.9 million in 2010 to a total of $14.436m in 2011.

But the airline pointed out that Mr Joyce's final salary package included share-based bonuses - that hinge on meeting performance targets - that he may never receive.

A Qantas spokesman said the $5 million pay packet was listed in the annual report to meet accounting requirements.

He said Mr Joyce's actual pay had decreased in the past financial year, and was actually closer to $3 million.

"Mr Joyce did not have a 71 per cent increase in his pay, it was actually almost a 10 per cent decrease compared to the previous year," the spokesman said.

Qantas executives have not been awarded a cash bonus for the past two years and Mr Joyce's pay in his last year as CEO of Jetstar in 2007-08 was higher than his pay as Qantas CEO in 2010-11, the spokesman said.

Jetstar chief Bruce Buchanan also saw his salary rise from $1.26 to $1.4 million this year, before share payments are acounted for which took the figure back to $905,000.

Pilots union president Captain Barry Jackson slammed Mr Joyce's rise as "abhorrent".

He said it was "a bad look'' when about 200 pilots faced either losing their jobs through redundancy or re-deployment to Jetstar on a lower wage.

"Pilots dedicate a good part of their lives to getting up to the required standard for Qantas and that costs them a lot,'' Captain Jackson said.

"To see Mr Joyce take this kind of money when jobs are being lost is abhorrent and I think Australians will feel that.''

A spokesman for the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association, also in dispute with Qantas over wages and job security, said the executive risse would only harden the attitude of members.

"It really sends a message about commitment to those workers who really love the company and the Qantas brand,'' he said.

"It is a slap in the face.''
Qantas boss wins 71 per cent, $2m pay hike [Herald Sun] (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/qantas-boss-wins-71pc-pay-hike/story-fn7j19iv-1226131590723)

Comments on this story
mum from Doncasrter East of doncaster east Posted at 5:43 PM September 07, 2011
The more people he sack, the more money he will get. Can someone please try to help me to understand who authorised this kind of system. It's the same for the Bank. The more staff that area manager get rid of, the more chances that he/she get a promotion. It's so UNFAIR and we are SICK of this.
Comment 1 of 28


Jarrod Kent of Cranbourne Posted at 5:47 PM September 07, 2011
id love to ask him how he sleeps at night
Comment 2 of 28


Tony Posted at 5:53 PM September 07, 2011
Axe staff, then Qantas senior management get a obscene payrise. What a disgrace.
Comment 3 of 28


Don Mann Posted at 5:55 PM September 07, 2011
You have got to be kidding! This is corporate greed at its worst!
Comment 4 of 28


Andrew of Melb Posted at 6:03 PM September 07, 2011
Well well well... fat cats at it again. Happy to cut employees off while racking in the cash. Crying poor under a sky raining $100 bills. We need a Law to stop these fat cats from making these huge profits while staff get the axe. Watch the companies ask the government to tear up workers rights to decent pay.
Comment 5 of 28



Toby of Ivanhoe Posted at 6:04 PM September 07, 2011
Simple, if you don't agree with his exorbitant salary then protest by ringing the airline and telling them that you will never fly Qantas again unless he drops his income to something reasonable (under $500K). If enough people stop flying Qantas then it could really have an impact and could make them think twice next time they are considering stealing from the shareholders.
Comment 6 of 28




Fred Posted at 6:08 PM September 07, 2011
OBSCENE !! he gets an INCREASE of $2 million while some of his employees are struggling on a TOTAL income of $40,000 and others lose their job altogether. How any man can live with his conscience in such a position is beyond me. The rich get richer and the poor get relatively poorer. There is no word for this but obscene!
Comment 7 of 28




Emu in the Desert of Dubai Posted at 6:10 PM September 07, 2011
If I was a QANTAS shareholder and Mr Joyce had doubled net profit I would have no issue at all in approving a 71% increase in his salary package. At the end of the day, Mr Joyce is answerable to the QANTAS board who are in turn, answerable to the QANTAS shareholders who are the owners of the company. On the issue of job losses, it is never, ever a desirable outcome, I have been retrenched so I know, but clearly QANTAS is an inefficient business and that is unsustainable. The fact is in 2011, the second largest cost of business for an airline after fuel, is staff and as most airlines have done all they can re fuel savings, head count is the next on the list. The unions may not like it but they have to be pragmatic, if the loss of 1000 jobs saves the business, that’s a good net result.
Comment 8 of 28




Grumpy of Burwood Posted at 6:13 PM September 07, 2011
Ahhh Capitalism 101. Sack the workers, maximise profits though the rules are you can never satisfy investors expectations and give the CEO a $2 million pay rise. See how easy it is. and the rich keep getting richer, and stuff the rest of us
Comment 9 of 28




Mike Young Posted at 6:28 PM September 07, 2011
I actually agree with the union on this one. This wage increase is abhorrent. Let's hope if Joyce gets the flick at sometime in the future he doesn't go out with a golden handshake like most CEOs who get the flick do. A lot of managers, board members and CEOs should go to the coalface of their businesses and talk with the people who actually work hard to bring the profits the companies desire. They may hear a lot of things they don't like but in the long run the companies will be the better for it.
Comment 10 of 28




Sylvia of Chirnside Park Posted at 6:31 PM September 07, 2011
It must be nice to say you dont have a job and then still be able to live it up. Pity the workers you sacked. Maybe you should give some of your salary to them. They need it more then you.
Comment 11 of 28




jimbo of Melbourne Posted at 6:49 PM September 07, 2011
And you wonder why the average worker has no respect for upper management. GREED.
Comment 12 of 28




Nicole – Small Business Owner of Melbourne Posted at 6:51 PM September 07, 2011
Isn't sacking 1000 workers part of the deal? He was remunerated to restructure the company. It takes courage and determination to change a company. Getting rid of dead wood is one of the hardest parts, and he should be rewarded for that.
Comment 13 of 28




Time to go on strike. of Melbourne Posted at 6:56 PM September 07, 2011
"abhorrent" that about sums it up.
Comment 14 of 28




Karma Factor Posted at 7:47 PM September 07, 2011
Don't worry, there is always the Karma factor.
Comment 15 of 28




Mark of Sydney Posted at 7:47 PM September 07, 2011
And the MEDIA have the gall to say today that our economy has defeated the recession and it grew by so and so percent and that things are great, REALLY ?? Is this some sort of brainwashing program, everything is extra expensive, fuel is now 1.50, I cant afford a house anywhere near where i work, my wages dont go up. THe RICH are keeping the working people poor and programing us to work into our 70's bcause whe r trapped into 40 year mortages, work, pay taxes, dont b rich, make the rich richer , shut up, stay working, then die. Marvelous life
Comment 16 of 28




Mick of GC Posted at 7:48 PM September 07, 2011
So what, Eddie gets 5 mill a year for doing nothing at least this guy works
Comment 17 of 28




Mary of Bayswater Posted at 7:50 PM September 07, 2011
would not use Qantas if you gave me a free ticket.
Comment 18 of 28




Sharrie of Melbourne Posted at 8:01 PM September 07, 2011
You are an absolute and total disgrace Alan Joyce. Hang your head in shame at your callous greed. It is no wonder workers, including our skilled pilots and maintenance staff have to be made redundant - to fund your bulging personal bank account. GREED GREED GREED. A shameful excuse for a human being.
Comment 19 of 28




Jack of Northcote Posted at 8:02 PM September 07, 2011
If corporations cant be trusted to reign in excess expenditure on management salaries, then Governments should introduce a tax that is at the rate of 90c in the dollar above $500K/year and 95c in the dollar above $1m/year
Comment 20 of 28



P.McCann of sydney Posted at 8:04 PM September 07, 2011
It is disgusting that our once proud airline is now very second rate in all ways, EXCEPTING for the salary paid to CEO JOYCE! Perhaps management should take a hike and the company should spend more on the aircraft so that people might feel safe again! Is this a "privatisation" destruction of a service we once respected? Will you now employ cheap foreign pilots as well, when you get rid of our good pilots?
Comment 21 of 28




Tom Ross of Melbourne Posted at 8:04 PM September 07, 2011
This man physically sickens me. No wonder he couldn't release his pay details during their end of year announcement - how bad would it look if he in one breath announced he was killing off 1000 Australian jobs, and in the next said he earnt a lazy 5 mill. The man is an absolute waste of space, and by all reports, a terrible communicator. Great choice on CEO Qantas!
Comment 22 of 28



John of Toorak Posted at 8:06 PM September 07, 2011
I also am in favour of increasing the top marginal rate to 90% above a certain level. $500K/year seems about right.
Comment 23 of 28




Jim Roberts of Battling away while crooks like joyce play. Posted at 8:08 PM September 07, 2011
So, the guy who was CEO of an Irish airline that he sent bankrupt, went on to be a senior manager at Ansett and bailed from them 2 months before they were bankrupted, then went to Scab, I mean Jetstar and drove down pilot and workers morale, pushed for offshoring, gets made CEO of Qantas, attempts to break it up and offshore it, kill its International operations, sack 1000 workers (with a rumored 2000 more to go by July next year), AND gets rewarded with a $5 MILLION DOLLAR PAYCHECK!?
Comment 24 of 28




Fred of Melbourne Posted at 8:10 PM September 07, 2011
Oh stop picking on the rich you socialists, this is class warfare
Comment 25 of 28
Samuel Posted at 8:11 PM September 07, 2011
Assuming he never sleeps, his salary is only $570/hr. You guys can shout, but nothing will happen. Next year he will get another $1m rise. Every year this happens to the bank bosses, and all companies, and they talk about improving productivity! Shame on you Joyce and the man who brought you to Qantas. You have deteriorated the quality of the airlines, damaged the brand, even with lower oil price now, you have not reduced the surcharge, you have not delivered any dividend. How can you take this? can someone find out, which company recommended this pay rise before the board approved it.
Comment 26 of 28




zella of Adelaide Posted at 8:17 PM September 07, 2011
Alan Joyce you have your snout in the trough while you don't want to give your staff a pay rise and sacking others,get your snout out and decline your huge wage increase and share it among the staff,after you sit in your big office chair,while the staff do all the work
Comment 27 of 28




Ivo of Melbourne Posted at 8:25 PM September 07, 2011
This is madness, company is sacking hundreds of people and pays CEO $2 million bonus? For what? I would understand $100,000 bonus but $2,000 000?????
Comment 28 of 28

[esreverlluf]

. . . and now this in today's Financial Review;

"The airline rejected a push by aviation unions to include a no-confidence motion in the management and board on the notice paper for next month's annual meeting.

A Qantas spokesman said a no-confidence motion has "no legal effect and is not technically appropriate" and so will not be voted on at the AGM".

You utter pr%^ks!!! Sure it was never likely to get up, but the arrogance of these arseh*les is unbelievable. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Seabreeze]

I can imagine a play about a company, in which there are 4 groups:

1. the executive including senior managers and board
2. the investors
3. the employees
4. the take-over-group

Group No 1 looks after No 1 in luxury and opulence, while Groups 2 and 3 are simply treated like mushrooms and told to flock off and sacrifice.

Group 2 show a continued lack of confidence in the leadership of Group 1 (the Share price is in the dunny)

Group 2 realise that without the goodwill and efforts of Group 3, the company is doomed in the long term no matter how well Group 1 self-remunerate and self congratulate, but can't get it together to force Group 1 to shape up.

Group 4 waits, watches and plans to be No 1, and works with deep-pocketed players elements of Group 2; Finally, the share price gets further flushed and the takeover is realised.

We go back to Act 1, and the cycle starts again......

The story will make a great Williamson play one day. (All the character flaws and deviant behaviour of the type appearing in The Club, and more). Should it be a drama or a comedy?

Pity that in reality so many hardworking employees get shafted.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

You utter pr%^ks!!! Sure it was never likely to get up, but the arrogance of these arseh*les is unbelievable.



I think it would get up. The ballot is taken of those members present at the board meeting. I can't see how they can legally not run a motion, it doesn't matter if they don't like it, the shareholders own the company not the Board.

100 applications are required for a ballot. I get 400 messages from shareholders who had submitted the papers.

[hotnhigh]

Have Joyce, Clifford, Strong and Dixon organised ANZ stadium in sydney for the agm? Should just about be big enough to hold the number of pissed off shareholders and employees.

[breakfastburrito]

I found the "Bad News" Four Corners special on NewCorp to be extremely interesting. The modus operandi was a ruthless culture of "the ends justify the means at all costs" . It was complete with underworld connections, and the mysterious "Southern Investigations". Any comparison with any industrial relations consulting firm(s) are completely fallacious.

The really interesting part was the ability to conduct illegal acts (phone hacking, database access) right under the noses, and in some cases complicit with the enforcement agencies.

There was your classic "wall of silence", with the executives standing shoulder to shoulder at Parliamentary inquiries for years, denying any culture of illegality, right to the bitter end.

However, once end came, it all unravelled extremely quickly, threatening to take out the Murdoch's themselves.

This is a parables of persistence, painstakingly & methodically documenting the evidence until it can no longer be hidden by the authorities.

This was a particularily telling quote from the transcript:
Meanwhile, News executives stuck to the company line of one rogue reporter. As one British MP puts it:

"You know what they say about lies: if you say it loud enough and often enough people begin to believe it and they nearly got away with it."


Parallels with any other organisation are completely coincidental.

Here's the web page for this report:Bad News (http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2011/08/25/3302121.htm) - It contains the video and full transcript.

Video direct download single file (http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2011/08/25/3302121.htm).

Four Corners Bad News - Part 1 - YouTube

Four Corners Bad News - Part 2 - YouTube

Four Corners Bad News - Part 3 - YouTube

[gobbledock]

So as a reward for presiding over an organisation that supposedly has lost money consecutively on it's International arm for the past 5 years, or whatever fanciful crap they are spinning, he gets a 71 per cent payrise? Yeah, that makes sense doesn't it?
Imagine what he will earn if ever the International sector does turn a profit!!!
I smell a veneer of sh#t around this entire malaise.

This is a parables of persistence, painstakingly & methodically documenting the evidence until it can no longer be hidden by the authorities. Spot on BB. Rumour can be fun, but it won't tear down the veil of protection surrounding these pathetic human beings. Evidence evidence evidence is what is required, and it doesn't matter what source it comes from -Disgruntled current employees well connected to the inner sanctum, former employee's, Wikileaks, accountancy firms, consultancy firms or former gay lovers! Proof is required as a starting point, so I would also encourage all that if you have even the most remote shred of documented proof then it is time to offer it up and bring these clowns crashing back down to earth. Let's face it, who the fukc do they think they are, that a handful of egotistical sh#tbags can play with a national icon like it was a $10 football.

[B772]

33 Disengage. The share price is actually down 43% over the past 12 months and if you had purchased QF 10 years ago you are still underwater without even considering the effects of CPI on the dollar value.

For those interested the major buyer of QF shares over the past week has been the Franklin Group and afflilates of Templeton Asset Management fame who now control 9.94% of the voting rights.

[UPPERLOBE]

Triffic then, aye...

Regulatory issues

In 2004, Franklin Templeton paid fines to the State of California, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission to settle issues regarding questionable practices including market timing. The plan for distribution of settlement monies was completed in September 2006, and all distributions have been completed as of December 2008.
A settlement was also completed with the Ontario Securities Commission concerning Bissett Funds in September 2005.

Source.

Franklin Templeton Investments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Templeton_Investments)

[manfred]

An interesting article:

What it takes to become a Qantas pilot | News.com.au (http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=newssearch&cd=2&ved=0CEgQqQIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.news.com.au%2Ftravel%2Ftravel-advisor%2Fwhat-it-takes-to-become-a-qantas-pilot%2Fstory-fn6sg2rl-1226132072271&ei=DXpoTuGvJMTf0QHVv7ThCw&usg=AFQjCNG_iBmPR_4oJJjjL1m8emwr6EDEdg)

[Sunfish]

Qantas - a good buy at the moment because it is a takeover target.

[Cancel Speed]

This is a silly question, but can the Jetstar group take over QF? Change of ownership but still Australian owned.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just some information from the Corporations Act that may assist those shareholders who are wondering why Qantas have said they won't be running the motion put by hundreds of shareholders. I can't see here how they can avoid it.


Division 4—Members’ rights to put resolutions etc. at general meetings
249N Members’ resolutions
(1) The following members may give a company notice of a resolution that they propose to move at a general meeting:


(a) members with at least 5% of the votes that may be cast on the resolution; or
(b) at least 100 members who are entitled to vote at a general meeting.

(1A) The regulations may prescribe a different number of members for the purposes of the application of paragraph (1)(b) to:
(a) a particular company; or
(b) a particular class of company.
Without limiting this, the regulations may specify the number as a percentage of the total number of members of the company.


(2) The notice must:
(a) be in writing; and:
(b) set out the wording of the proposed resolution; and
(c) be signed by the members proposing to move the resolution.
(3) Separate copies of a document setting out the notice may be used for signing by members if the wording of the notice is identical in each copy.
(4) The percentage of votes that members have is to be worked out as at the midnight before the members give the notice.

249O Company giving notice of members’ resolutions
(1) If a company has been given notice of a resolution under
section 249N, the resolution is to be considered at the next general meeting that occurs more than 2 months after the notice is given.
Corporations Act 2001 319





Chapter 2G Meetings
Part 2G.2 Meetings of members of companies
Division 4 Members’ rights to put resolutions etc. at general meetings
Section 249P


(2) The company must give all its members notice of the resolution at the same time, or as soon as practicable afterwards, and in the same way, as it gives notice of a meeting.
(3) The company is responsible for the cost of giving members notice of the resolution if the company receives the notice in time to send it out to members with the notice of meeting.
(4) The members requesting the meeting are jointly and individually liable for the expenses reasonably incurred by the company in giving members notice of the resolution if the company does not receive the members’ notice in time to send it out with the notice of meeting. At a general meeting, the company may resolve to meet the expenses itself.
(5) The company need not give notice of the resolution:

(a) if it is more than 1,000 words long or defamatory; or
(b) if the members making the request are to bear the expenses of sending the notice out—unless the members give the company a sum reasonably sufficient to meet the expenses that it will reasonably incur in giving the notice.

[Worrals in the wilds]

(1A) The regulations may prescribe a different number of members for the purposes of the application of paragraph (1)(b) to:
(a) a particular company; or
(b) a particular class of company.


Nothing smelly in the regs wrt Qantas or airlines?

[esreverlluf]

FedSec - wrt the no-confidence motion - I'm sure you guys are all over it, but it what does ASIC have to say about this style of corporate governance?

[TIMA9X]

What were those greedy pilots asking for? 2.5%? Yep says it all, damages any credibility AJ and his board have left and it was Jimmy Bow tie who approved it... true to form, leopards don't change their spots..:(

.

[C441]

What were those greedy pilots asking for? 2.5%?

And included some productivity gains to be negotiated.

I wonder what sort of productivity AJ offered and with whom it was negotiated?

[Fris B. Fairing]

Doubtless a motion of no confidence would not have got up anyway but the important thing is that hundreds of shareholders cared enough to go out of their way to have a say. Probably many of these shareholders are current or retired Qantas staff who hold on to their shares, not in the hope that it will make them wealthy, but rather because of an old-fashioned concept known as pride of ownership, a concept that AJ and the board would not comprehend. The fact that hundreds of quality shareholders are being denied a voice is a bigger story than if the motion had been presented and defeated.

[esreverlluf]

Fris B - that is spot-on!

[bandit2]

The problem is, these leeches have no conscience. I've heard Dixon cry poor about fuel etc during our EBA negotiations. Guess what, not long after, he announced over a billion dollar profit. We still had to fight for our %3. These idiots have bagged almost every employee in the company, cried poor, announced 550 million profit AND given the CEO a 70% payrise. The Chairman of the Renumeration committee thinks the 70% payrise is in the interest of our shareholders. The very same shareholders who haven't had a dividend in 3 years. Who knows what the Board have given themselves for there 'huge' effort this year.

[esreverlluf]

I have just submitted a complaint to ASIC re Qantas' intended treatment of the no-confidence motion - I encourage others to do the same.

Australian Securities and Investments Commission - Complaining about companies or people (http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/Complaining+about+companies+or+people?openDocument#how)

Select on-line complaint form about three quarters of the way down the page.:ok:

[Take five]

A couple of questions from talks today which someone in the know may answer correctly.

1. When you vote on the Annual Gen Meeting paper which is mailed to shareholders, and you give your proxy vote to the chairman to vote for you, is your choice on the ballot paper taken into consideration or does the chairman of the meeting control your vote.

2. Where is the meeting to be held this year.

3. I am thinking that anyone who can, needs to be in attendance to make their vote valid.

[ampclamp]

You direct your proxy how to vote, chairman or not. They must cast them iaw your instructions. If you do not make such direction he/ she may cast them as they wish.
However if the chair is part of a motion he / she maybe excluded from the vote so the proxy may flow to a stand in for that vote. Not 100% but along those lines.

[Longbow25]

Just lodged by complaint to ASIC as well.

['holic]

Maybe you should read the Corporations Act. The company have no discretion as to which resolutions they present to shareholders. There's nothing in the Qantas Constitution either, maybe you should read it before telling everyone else to.

ASIC Online Complaint Form
https://www.edge.asic.gov.au/008/complaintV006?get/complainant/t=a7caa7815c25d64a64b5dcf7e133b4a71511ca5

[denabol]

RBS Equities has downgraded Qantas and kept Virgin as a buy in their transport stocks bulletin.

They make reference to the risks posed by the Asian premium carrier and industrial trouble.

Qantas at risk of biz travel drop says RBS Equities | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/09/10/rbs-securities-breaks-ranks-with-the-usual-business-travel-platitudes-in-note-about-qantas-virgin-australia-outlooks/)

[GlobalMaster]

Plane Talking reference to the risks posed by the Asian premium carrier
Really is the elephent in the room.

That no other European/North American carrier is intending to set up a Premium Airline in Asia's backyard, begs the question - Why Not!

QF sure has a hell of a lot riding on the success of Fantasia.

[Keg]

To quote one Qantas executive, it's a 'huge gamble'.

[SteaminDivet]

In 1994, Shareholders of Continental Airlines held their shares at $3.25.
They had been in Chapter 11 twice in the previous decade.
Gordon Bethune the then new CEO stated he figured that the share price was at rock bottom and these share holders weren't selling because they were invested and just hoping they would survive, the loss on paper was already there so why realise it?
The fact that many shareholders have held their QF shares for no reward and to see their share value trashed by the same people that are profiteering from their position by way of pay/bonus/package (call it/hide it however you please Gentlemen) shows that these share holders have a vested interest in the company. To deny their voice to be heard smacks of acts of corporate psychopaths.
A voice of no confidence is fair and warranted.
In the last ten years QF shareholders have seen the Management team lead QANTAS to a trashing of it's employees publicly, trashing of the share price, incorrect fleet investment, Take over bid debacle, Massive executive payouts and parachutes, no dividends and now Job losses on the Australian front coupled with a massive failure in employee morale. All amidst massive ongoing profits.
This must surely be an awesome case study of incompetence at an executive level that is not yet rivalled in Australia and as far as I can research the Pan-Asian area (boom-tish)
The QANTAS board and the CEO of QANTAS, Jetstar and JANZ must go. Who replaces, I don't know, but this is far from the case of better the devil you know. Geoff Dixon was the polyp, this is his cancer. Not the employees as they think. (And unfortunately some employees also think, that have allowed the age old divide and conquer strategy from executive management to steer their thoughts)
Unity in the QANTAS group is the only answer.

[Dixons Millions]

To quote one Qantas executive, it's a 'huge gamble'.

Keg, who, what Exec said this....?

[Mr Leslie Chow]

SteaminDivet

You are well and truly on the money.

Let's just hope that QF isn't a case study on corporate failure in a few years time.

[JDI]

SteaminDivet - Well said!!!

Now what can be done before it is too late??

Myself, I believe we need to start taking out regular full page newspaper ads telling these facts And... What really needs to be done to Fix this severe problem ie correct Fleet for International, keep flying the all important Routes and more destinations, and re-invest in the Premium service that the loyal passengers used to have, really do want and are prepared to pay for!!

We need to show not just this Board and CEO need to go but WHAT we, the Shareholders and Passengers, really WANT re-installed back into the Qantas that Australia did love!

(Pulling off the London route just before the Olympics??? Please!!!!, tell me there are not hidden agenda reasons for this?)

Just my opinion of course?

[GlobalMaster]

According to The Australian Financial Review Qantas Airways Ltd's plans to move into Asia with a new premium brand may be delayed until 2013, as the carrier remains in talks with potential partners in Singapore and Kuala Lumpur.

[The The]

Qantas Airways Ltd's plans to move into Asia with a new premium brand may be delayed until 2013, as the carrier remains in talks with potential partners in Singapore and Kuala Lumpur.

Let's hope that is QF spin for "we finally realised what a stupid idea it was. To save face we'll say we are deferring. By 2013 AJ and the board will be long gone and we'll be concentrating on rebuilding the Qantas brand."

[The Green Goblin]

2013?

About the same time them plastic fantastics are about due to arrive......perhaps they realized A320s couldn't cut the mustard against 777s

[7378FE]

and we'll be concentrating on rebuilding the Qantas brand.

Keep dreaming, AJ & Co. have a plan B, and you thought plan A was a joke?

Stay tuned.

[600ft-lb]

Let's just hope that QF isn't a case study on corporate failure in a few years time.
When the spin department get done with it, it'll be the greedy pilots and engineers' fault against a backdrop of poverty stricken executives/consultants/managers/advisors/lawyers/analysts facing adversity on a daily basis to save a national icon.

[denabol]

At the end of a post in Plane Talking about Singapore Airlines, Tiger and Virgin there is this about the AFR report on Qantasia being delayed

Of parallel concern to Qantas investors are reports that its plans for an Asia based premium carrier using single aisle A320s, and a non Qantas branding in conjunction with a partners in Malaysia, Singapore or China, are running late, and might not see it able to start service until 2013.
At the moment that plan seems to be flying through treacle. Constant references by Qantas sources to the Malaysia potential have been received with disbelief among those familiar with the risks of doing business with Tony Fernandes, the founder of AirAsia, who has been far more successful with his low cost franchise than either Qantas with Jetstar or Singapore Airlines with Tiger.
The Asia delays will not reflect well on Qantas CEO Alan Joyce if the new Asia premium carrier is deferred into the second financial year reporting period from now, as he has already announced sacrificial cuts to Qantas long haul services, including half of its capacity on the kangaroo route to London, in order to rebuild the airline’s fortunes around non Qantas brands exploiting the lower labor costs of Asia.
The gap between downsizing Qantas, and invading the turf of large, powerful and supremely well connected Asian competitors is looking deeper and more treacherous the further the venture is delayed.
The Joyce plan serves existing Qantas market share of long haul routes up on a platter to its smarter and more relevant competitors. Doing so for a risky Asia venture that runs quickly into difficulties would be a double disaster for the flying kangaroo.

[ejectx3]

The mind boggles......

[Dixons Millions]

The mind boggles......

Yes. Quite incredible.... What AJ and board are attempting is a massively risky venture at best with a booming world economy, but with a global economy on the brink, those 3 bILLION in the bank will be destroyed quicker than you or I could possibly blink. Onya boys. So stupid it hurts to even watch. Slo motion train crash, right here before our very eyes....

[Worrals in the wilds]

What exactly is a 'premium' carrier?:confused:
Is it to be full service economy + business, exclusively business class or what?
Sorry if I missed a press release, but there aren't a lot of actual details in any of the Qantasia hype.

[Dixons Millions]

Yeah, kinda stupid. What they say is sleeper seats and better service than currently available. So, lemme think. Want to go from Singapore to KL.... need sleeper seat, ten minutes in the bunk plus all the grand service promised me....or Singapore SYD, oops, A320 can't even make the distance. Sorry, but this just gets more ridiculous the more one reads into this. F**ckin' joke. Only hope the fund managers, supposedly a smart buncha guys understand this, and take action prior to or on the 28th Oct....

[crwjerk]

read Premium Carrier, with ultra low cost salary.

[Sunfish]

I wonder when a bigger investor is going to call BS! On the entire Qantas strategy?

Two of the abiding principles of business (and warfare) are selection and maintenance of a single aim and concentration of force.

Qantas has spread itself very thinly - Jet Connect, Jetstar New Zealand, Jetstar Asia, Jetstar Vietnam, Jetstar Japan, Jetstar domestic, Qantas link (regional), Qantas (WA mining Charter), Qantas Domestic, Qantas International and the new alleged premium Asian venture, have I left anything out?

To support those segments we have an organisational structure with at least one, and probably Two, additional layers of management - Executive General Managers and Group General Managers.

Apart from the obvious cost of such a structure, there are penalties in terms of corporate agility. Perhaps not so obvious would be the cost penalties associated with sub optimisation as each segment manager tries to maximise their own performance and competes for Board and senior management attention, not to mention scarce corporate investment dollars.

The McKinsey boyz taught me around 1986 that such structures are recipes for disaster because ultimately it is the quality of Board decisions that counts, and it becomes impossible for Boards to quickly switch focus between the needs and strategies of the various business segments. The classic case of course was BHP - which made a disastrous purchase of Magma Copper in the USA, before the consultants were called in to chop it up into more manageable bits by selling off the steel division and hiving off BHP Oil and Gas.

To put that another way, the whole is much less than the sum of its parts. To put that yet another way; anyone who tells you that the structure allows you to "leverage corporate synergies" or equivalent management speak is talking bullshyte.

Of course there are winners in such a structure - middle management has to proliferate in order to keep the various parts of the organisation flying roughly in formation. Qantas legal and supply Departments must be a managers paradise.

For example, how many different aircraft models does the Qantas group employ? How many operations and training staff are required to cater to each? Does Qantas employ type specialists to keep track of the minutiae of getting the best out of each model and plan the maintenance and replacement strategy? Such people are the "connecting tissue" of an airline as well as the repository of corporate knowledge and experience. They are very vulnerable to cost cutters. It was the destruction of these folk at Ansett that consigned that airline to history.

The problems of such structures are also amplified if the Board has certain agendas - such as breaking unions. How is the Group going to discriminate between "good" unions and "bad" unions? How will the organisation deal with a surplus of say, pilots and engineers in one part of the business and a sudden need for the same type of people in another segment? What happens when you are bashing engineers who service the International fleet and you discover that the performance of your mining charter operations is critically dependent on the good offices of half a dozen engineers in W.A? It is often infuriating for managers and staff alike to be saddled with a company wide "corporate policy" that is totally at variance with the needs of an individual operation....then add some corporate "group think" about "legacy airlines" that creates "winners" and "losers" among the staff and watch morale implode.


Anyway, these types of organisations always run in cycles. Consultants love building them up, then coming along Ten years later and dismantling them. One day its "leveraging corporate wide economies through centralisation" then the next its "Agility through decentralized decision making".

[Me Myself]

To cut it short : you guys are toast !
Gone are the days where the Qantas name was triggering respect and envy.
None of this now and I think you guys are partly, just partly to blame for this.
You didn't see it coming, did you ? The Emirates, Etihad and the lot.
I am afraid the little Irish is goung to have you swallow his very bitter medecine and yiu won't like it.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not enjoying it because Qantas has undoubtly brought a lot to airline safety.
Arrogance is what did you in. Being safe is really nice, being affordable is what people want today.
Oh yes, another thing : you economy service sucks big time and if I wasn't travelling Z I would have left long ago.

[hotnhigh]

RedQ firms as name for Qantas's new premium airline in Asia (http://www.smh.com.au/business/redq-firms-as-name-for-qantass-new-premium-airline-in-asia-20110912-1k61j.html)


Far Q!

[ampclamp]

at the risk of being trolled I would suggest many "saw it coming' Sadly the pilots and staff dont have the power to alter corporate policy. We are perfectly capable of seeing trends and fast growers. Qantas' trouble is they have been trading on their name and not investing in planes, people, quality and routes. The fact they dont fly anywhere , codeshare with much worse or better airlines [killing product consistency], serve crap food. have ancient IFE on many aircraft still has nothing to with staff arrogance it is corporate. Please pass your concerns to those that are paid to manage product. We cant get even basic repairs carried out but they squander millions on PR campaigns trying to hoodwink the public.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not enjoying it...

That's not how it reads. The whole post reads like yet another 'Nyah nayh ne nyah nyah, you're all gonna get sacked' gloat that this thread is sprinkled with. Was that your intention? :bored:

If so, I assume you're directing the nyah nyahs at the pilots and maybe the engineers? Or are they to the thousands of ordinary workers in CS, catering and ramp who are also nervous and fearful, because many of them have been there for their whole careers and aren't trained for anything else? Are they 'partly to blame' as well, because their company is run by a Board with a really surreal method of running an airline where they ignore all the actual airline stuff?
Nyah nyah, guys. :sad::(


You didn't see it coming, did you?

Everyone's seen it coming. Homeless people living in airport terminals have seen it coming. It's been looming for at least the last five years and the actual staff have been shouting from the rooftops; "We're falling behind on quality and losing market share to the Arabs", to no avail. The beancounters on the Board don't listen to mere staff. Maybe they've actually been trying to run down the International business, that is at least a logical explanation for their actions.

Now they've made a $500m profit but apparently can't afford to employ real Aussies anymore. It's all our fault guys, for being greedy and demanding more than $5 a day. You're Ruining This Country! (BTW, what was Joyce's renumeration package again:}?

They're still milking the 'Australian' image and 'proud heritage' as much as they can for marketing purposes though. No doubt the FarQ launch campaign will be dripping with nippers, koalas, flag waving bushies and the like, with a careful lack of focus on the $5 a day Thais who are making it all happen. :*

[unionist1974]

QF Mgmt would have to be happy with things , life goes on , plans are laid , the bait is thrown and taken . All the while the place is being taken apart brick by brick , and what are the Union Officilas doing ? To busy rorting their gifted credit cards ? One wonders !

[TIMA9X]

Everyone's seen it coming. Homeless people living in airport terminals have seen it coming. It's been looming for at least the last five years and the actual staff have been shouting from the rooftops; "We're falling behind on quality and losing market share to the Arabs", to no avail. The beancounters on the Board don't listen to mere staff. Maybe they've actually been trying to run down the International business, that is at least a logical explanation for their actions. Yeah Worrals, could not have said it better myself... and looking at the share price today (again under $1.50) does get you wondering what is really going on behind the scenes since the Aug 24th announcement, the investors are simply not buying the "new direction" set by AJ and the board.

.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-L7b3GQG-hho/Tm8UXPr9WfI/AAAAAAAAAAw/7eJeukO4Ddk/%2525213-09-11-%252520qantas-share-close.JPG

:suspect:

Of course it's all the staff's fault.. :* Just check the comments to this story published today..
RedQ firms as name for Qantas's new premium airline in Asia (http://www.smh.com.au/business/redq-firms-as-name-for-qantass-new-premium-airline-in-asia-20110912-1k61j.html?comments=71#comments)

.

[Nose wheel first]

Qantas has spread itself very thinly - Jet Connect, Jetstar New Zealand, Jetstar Asia, Jetstar Vietnam, Jetstar Japan, Jetstar domestic, Qantas link (regional), Qantas (WA mining Charter), Qantas Domestic, Qantas International and the new alleged premium Asian venture, have I left anything out?



EFA, QF Freight.

[gobbledock]

I'm not enjoying it because Qantas has undoubtly brought a lot to airline safety. Now that is funny.
Maybe prior to 'the beginning of the end in 2003'. It has taken the good part of 8 years but the reputation for safety, quality and excellence is loooong gone. At least Jimmy Bowtie could still see through those greedy little beady eyes and saw that service and safety contributed to profitabilty, but I still wouldnt wipe my a#s with him. But Darth and the Leprechaun and Co are the new breed of corporate rapist. These guys make Bernie Madoff and Arthur Andersen look like philanthropists! They have greed in their veins and their arteries pump $$$. These egotistical self serving toads will stop at nothing to fill their bank accounts by destroying every last brick of what Sir Wilmot Hudson Fysh created.
R.I.P


Qantas has spread itself very thinly - Jet Connect, Jetstar New Zealand, Jetstar Asia, Jetstar Vietnam, Jetstar Japan, Jetstar domestic, Qantas link (regional), Qantas (WA mining Charter), Qantas Domestic, Qantas International and the new alleged premium Asian venture, have I left anything out? It pays to be a Director these days doesn't it? Some nice little earners there for the 'chosen few'.

[boeing fixer]

Also all the trucking companies JETS, Australian Air Express, Star Track Express and probably a few more out their as well.

[Me Myself]

Look, sorry if it came across as nya nya. It wasn't my intention.
But sorry to state the obvious : I've been flying QF as staff for a lot of years now and treated like s...t with swiss regularity. I've witnessed from seat 45 A, you know, the one near the heads how much youR cabin crew don't give a s...t.

Main worry is, let's get rid of these meals ASAP and bugger off to bed hoping no one will ask for a glass of water.
To ask for a second cup of coffee over breakfast seems the cardinal sin as, again, work doesn't seem to be on the agenda.
As far as inflight entertaiment goes.....no complain on my part. Great choice of movies.
I don't see what the managers have to do with that. You either care or don't.
End of story.
The same flight on JAL, with crap food is definitly a lot more enjoyable. At least, the cabin crew know a thing or two about service.
I wouldn't say JAL is in top shape. Still, I don't hear any whining online.

The only thing that keeps this airline flying is that it hasn't killed anyone.That alone is outstanding It's up to you to keep it that way.
I've come across enough QF pilots to know modesty isn't exactly their trade.
You're nothing special, just very pro's I feel safe riding behind. What do you want ? A medal for doing your job ?
At any rate, I Would be very sorry to see you go.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Fair enough, sorry if I was overly harsh. I see the impact literally from the ground up and it makes me cranky.

I've posted (at length :zzz:) about service on QF International. They can't seem to feed me so I now go elsewhere. However, as an 'industry insider' (such a journo term :\) I know that's because the systems in place mean that Qantas advertises special meals without actually budgeting to provide them:mad:.I have met plenty of CC through work who gave up on caring because there just wasn't any incentive. That's probably a bad attitude, but after years of copping pax abuse for lousy things like phantom meals and IFE systems that aren't entertaining, that are totally beyond their control...I don't completely blame them.

Any competent company that provides service makes a bit of an effort to keep the frontline staff onside. Otherwise some of them get mean and whiny and take it out on the customers. Others just leave. A few keep on smiling but not many people are that nice. Any decent bar manager, Junk Food franchisee or real estate agent knows this but Qantas are just too cool for Staff Relations. The dumb thing is, it doesn't actually cost a lot and you don't have to pay huge wages. Virgin pay less than QF and offer far fewer entitlements, but by and large their staff are excellent at customer service.

A lot of it is also in the recruitment. You have to get the Right People. If you inherit a company that contains a lot of Wrong People there are ways and means of minimising their impact and/or pushing them off without being horrible to everyone, which doesn't make many Wrong People leave anyway. It just makes them nastier. Over the years I've known many people who applied for QF CC/CS. Some of them were excellent and missed out; some of them were absolute head cases and got hired. :confused: Picking the difference comes down to HR department competency or lack thereof. Ditto morale. Again, Virgin seem to be able to manage this (anti discrimination case notwithstanding :hmm:) as do Alliance, Skytrans, Tiger and pretty much all the other Australian operators. As you say, the forum's not full of threads whinging about JAL.

There are literally thousands of people wanting to be FAs and willing to work for peanuts (as per the Jetstar CC threads, much as we keep telling them not to:{). If Qantas can't provide decent customer service (and they can't) they must be doing something wrong, whether it's in the recruitment or the management of CS staff. IMO: it's largely the latter. Treat people like manure for long enough and they'll act like manure. They'll still take your money, but don't expect happy smiling faces.

The QF customer service issue is another problem that's been shouted about from aviation rooftops for at least the last five years. It's hardly a big secret. Again; Qantas have done nothing to address this. Absolutely 2/5 of (an) FA, while everyone in the country's talking about how nice the staff on EK/CX/SQ were. It's not just an issue of Australia's anti-discrimination laws either (which Qantas also like to hide behind whenever they're off-record; 'we can't have a babe-only policy so it's all too hard :rolleyes:'). Swissair provide excellent service with a bunch of middle aged Fraus and boofy looking dudes. They make you glad you came and chose Swissair, which is the essence of customer service. I suspect that's because Swissair don't slag them off and run them down every chance they get.

It's about running an airline, as opposed to a... Well, in the eyes of the Board, what is Qantas? What does it do? What do they want to achieve? Massive profits of course, but they're already doing that. How do you make profits massiver when you own an airline? The simple answer is by ensuring you have a great product. They're not doing that. Maybe they have another option for massiver profits, because sure as hell's hot they're not running great airlines, anywhere or with any tail design. They can launch FarQ to much media acclaim but guaranteed it will have the same woeful CS as Qantas and Jetstar unless they change their staff management practices. 5 bucks is on 'That ain't gonna happen'.

[neville_nobody]

I guess Alan better setup some flying schools in OZ as Asians aren't going to be paying to learn to fly then paying for the endorsement with 5000 hours.

Qantas wants five airlines flying to China (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-wants-five-airlines-flying-to-china-20110914-1k8bk.html)

Qantas wants five airlines flying to China
September 14, 2011 - 8:49AM
Qantas plans to have five carriers flying into China as it seeks a larger share of the world's fastest-growing aviation market.

Qantas and its budget unit Jetstar already fly into China, while the company's Vietnamese offshoot may join new carriers it is creating in Japan and South-East Asia in servicing the world's most populous nation, chief executive Alan Joyce said yesterday.

Mr Joyce is focusing on new ventures in Asia to help turn around $200 million in annual losses on international services and tap into a region the International Air Transport Association expects will be the world's most profitable this year.

Rising affluence is boosting demand for travel services, with the number of domestic tourists rising 11 per cent to 2.1 billion last year.

"China is already a massive market in getting bigger but nothing happens easily there," said Neil Hansford, chairman of Strategic Aviation Solutions, an Australian consultancy.

"People can have whatever aspirations they want with China but you still have to make it work."

Qantas flies daily from Sydney to Shanghai, with connections to other Chinese cities through an agreement with China Eastern Airlines, the nation's third largest carrier. Jetstar flies to eight Chinese cities from its hub in Singapore.

Chinese services now represent more than 10 per cent of Qantas's international revenue, compared with "low single digits" five years ago, with the new services expected to drive traffic across its network, Mr Joyce said.

"We know the world is going to change dramatically in that direction," he said.

"We are planning growth in Asia and we think with a premium and low-cost brand we can compete there."

Qantas expects its new Asian carrier, which will offer business and economy class travel, to begin operations next year, with a decision on whether to base it in Singapore or Malaysia likely in the next two months.

The company would have a minority stake in the business to make it able to qualify for flying rights from either base.

A Kuala Lumpur base may involve teaming up with Malaysian Airline System, which last month agreed to a share swap with budget airline AirAsia, which is run by Tony Fernandes.

"Singapore has a stronger traffic base, a better yielding and bigger traffic base but a lot depends on the rights we get out of Singapore," Mr Joyce said. While Kuala Lumpur gets less corporate travel, teaming with Malaysian and AirAsia may offer more flying rights and "make it equally as good as Singapore."



Read more: Qantas wants five airlines flying to China (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-wants-five-airlines-flying-to-china-20110914-1k8bk.html#ixzz1Xskg94LA)

[ACT Crusader]

A bit more on the China issue from Bloomberg



Qantas Airways Ltd. (QAN) (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=QAN:AU), seeking to revive unprofitable international operations, is counting on five different airline units to win travelers in China (http://topics.bloomberg.com/china/), a country 60 times bigger than its home market.
The Australian company is forming a premium carrier in Southeast Asia and a budget venture in Japan (http://topics.bloomberg.com/japan/) that will give it bases closer to China, Chief Executive Officer Alan Joyce, 45, said in an interview in Sydney yesterday. The two new airlines, which begin flights next year, will add to Qantas’ existing operations in Vietnam, Singapore (http://topics.bloomberg.com/singapore/) and Australia.
“There is a huge opportunity for Qantas within the Asian markets,” Joyce said. Having premium and low-cost units serving China and the rest of the region is “critical,” he said.
Winning sales in the world’s most populous country is central to Joyce’s plans to turn around overseas operations losing around A$200 million ($207 million) a year because of competition from Middle East carriers on routes to Europe (http://topics.bloomberg.com/europe/). Delta Air Lines Inc. and American Airlines have also added flights to China, where international air travel may grow 11 percent a year through 2014, according to the International Air Transport Association.
“I really think it is hard to over-estimate China’s potential,” said Peter Harbison (http://topics.bloomberg.com/peter-harbison/), chairman of the Sydney-based CAPA Centre for Aviation. The country’s size and rising intra- Asia trade provide “unbelievable upside internationally,” he said.
Jetstar China

Qantas’s low-cost budget arm Jetstar (http://www.jetstar.com/sg/en/planning-and-booking/where-we-go/route-map) has led the Sydney- based company’s growth in China by offering flights to eight cities from its hub in Singapore. The budget carrier’s Vietnam unit also plans to add China flights, Joyce said. The main Qantas airline flies to Shanghai (http://topics.bloomberg.com/shanghai/) and Hong Kong (http://topics.bloomberg.com/hong-kong/) from Australia (http://topics.bloomberg.com/australia/).
Chinese services now represent more than 10 percent of Qantas’s international revenue, compared with “low single digits” five years ago, Joyce said.
Qantas plans to order as many as 110 Airbus SAS A320s, including 78 of the revamped neo version, to support the new Southeast Asia premium carrier and the Japan budget venture. It announced the new international airlines last month alongside plans to pare flights to Europe and shed 1,000 jobs in Australia.
The job cuts bolstered calls by unions for job-security agreements that would limit the airline’s ability to hire specialists such as pilots for the new Asian carrier.
Labor Talks

Joyce said the carrier may reach agreements with labor leaders by the end of the year. The company last month started talks with its long-haul pilots union with help from Fair Work Australia, the nation’s industrial regulator.
“We are trying to get some leaders on the same page,” Joyce said about labor groups. Still, “some of our unions regard a dollar of profit as enough and anything else as extravagant.”
Qantas’s net income fell 83 percent to A$9 million in the six months ended June after disruptions caused by earthquakes in Japan and New Zealand (http://topics.bloomberg.com/new-zealand/), Cyclone Yasi in Australia and a plume of volcanic ash that drifted across the Pacific Ocean from Chile (http://topics.bloomberg.com/chile/).
The carrier fell 1.6 percent to A$1.495 yesterday Sydney trading. It has declined 41 percent this year, compared with a 27 percent drop for the Bloomberg World Airlines Index, which tracks 30 stocks.
Decision on Base

Qantas plans to make a decision on whether to base its new premium airline in Singapore or Kuala Lumpur (http://topics.bloomberg.com/kuala-lumpur/) within two months, Joyce said. Singapore has the advantage of a bigger business travel base, while Kuala Lumpur may offer less competition and the chance to work with Malaysian Airline System Bhd. (MAS) (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=MAS:MK) and AirAsia Bhd., he said.
Like all of the company’s overseas operations, Qantas will work with a local partner on the new premium unit to get around international rules governing airline ownership. The Jetstar Japan venture will be part-owned by Japan Airlines Co. and Mitsubishi Corp.
Joyce founded Jetstar in 2004, four years after joining Qantas following stints at Aer Lingus Group Plc and Ansett, which was Australia’s number two carrier before collapsing 10 years ago.


Qantas Targets China Travelers With New Units - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-13/qantas-ceo-joyce-will-target-chinese-travelers-with-five-separate-airlines.html)

[B772]

Joyce must have read Beijing has started construction of a third airport planned to have 9 runways. The last major airport project in Beijing for the Olympic Games was the construction of a third terminal at the airport to the north of the city. This is the the world's largest airport building, with more floor space than all 5 Heathrow terminals combined.

[TIMA9X]

"Our first objective with Dallas is to pad it out to daily services with a big plane. Why would you then drop back to a 787 in that case?"
Mr Strambi said the route may be served longer term by an Airbus A380 capable of making the 13,804-kilometre journey across the Pacific.
Qantas started the Sydney to Dallas/Fort Worth route in May this year, flying four times a week to its Oneworld Alliance partner American Airlines' biggest hub city.
Qantas to stick with 747 for Dallas (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-business/qantas-to-stick-with-747-for-dallas-20110914-1k95l.html)
Yeah Lyell, why would you drop back to a 789 if they are all over at J* come in spinner! :*

[73to91]

“I really think it is hard to over-estimate China’s potential,” said Peter Harbison (http://topics.bloomberg.com/peter-harbison/), chairman of the Sydney-based CAPA Centre for Aviation. The country’s size and rising intra- Asia trade provide “unbelievable upside internationally,” he said.
yeah sure does Pete, that's why one of their own has announced

China Southern Airlines will increase its flights from Guangzhou to Brisbane from three to four flights a week as well as adding Beijing to the flight route to grow its passenger numbers.
plus they do daily from Guangzhou to both Sydney & Melbourne.

Catch up football although, there's no catch up in regards to the ME

[runesta]

it's stupid for anyone to fly onestop to asia via Singapore when they can fly non-stop :rolleyes:
the whole point of 787 is range capability to hub bust and fly point to point

[Me Myself]

My remarks regarding the quality of service were referering to a time well before 5 years ago, and it has kept the pace.
The difference between EK and QF is EK doesn't Have these pathetic old crust aussie style cabin crew, but cute assed, well meaning Oz girl for a lot od them, who want to see the world and move on after a few years.
None of these old menopaused aunties Agony who look down on you if you happen to be staff and, God forbid, from a dubious european airline.
You're just lucky to be a full fare paying pax. Still....shut up !
As to abuse, I assure you I keep my mouth shut and put on my best behaviour.
As a matter of fact, in the many years I have flown QF, I have never seen a passenger abuse a CC, but who cares !
Having very close swiss friends, I can tell you I have witnessed the demise of Swissair and its rebirth as Swiss almost from the inside.
Switzerland is a very service oriented country. That's all that kept them going for years and they don't feel any less for looking after people.
Wether a mountain hutt or an airline, or Migros, the swiss Coles, you get service and treated nicely.
I know Australia equally well and among its many qualities, being of service to customers, isn't one of them.
Go into any restaurant.....pathetic. A shop ? Do not ask too many questions.
The egalitarian attitude, the no worries mate thing, doesn't agree with service.
It's not even regarded as a carreer.
What attracts people to Oz ? Its fantastic nature, its amazing beaches, its very friendly people...........as long as they don't have to wait on you !
Result ? QF cabin crew do you a favour by accepting you on board and be so nice as not being too demanding.50
Best way to end up behind a Coles cash register !

Safety ? Sure thing. No one wants to crash, but you also have heaps of aussie pilots with EK and by the look of it, soon a lot more ! Who will find out that their non Qantas counterparts.......guess what ??? Can also fly planes !! Wouldn't you know !!!. So yes, even with its outstanding track record, ........the world can live without Qantas.
It looks to me like a repeat, a sad one, of 1989. Pilots had no clue then and it doesn't look they have much more now.

The world is changing, people are, at leat in Europe and the US, trying to make ends meet.
Airline pilots, as Qantas pilots, do not impress anyone. You'd better register this and face reality.
Still, wether in Oz or Europe, we belong to the best earners. No we're not bankers, but I sure as hell prefer my life style to theirs.
I don't think the public will have much sympathy once they are assured they can still travel hassle free.
As a US comedian used to say, Oz is at the arse end of the world.....and that comes with a price in today's world.
You'll feel the pinch with the coming summer. I don't think you'll see too many of us storming down, or exept the usual money tight backpacker.
The Aussie dollar is up, the Euro down..........and I want to be takked to nicely and have a second cup of coffe for breafast.
This being said......all the best of luck. You are going to need it because your little irish bastard looks like he really means it.
I haven't heard Julia or Tony go into a sreaming heap either. That should be telling.

[skybed]

THE WORLD'S BEST AIRLINES : 2011 Skytrax

1 Qatar Airways/ 2 Singapore Airlines/3 Asiana Airlines/ 4 Cathay Pacific Airways/5 Thai Airways International/ 6 Etihad Airways/ 7 Air New Zealand
8 Qantas Airways/ 9 Turkish Airlines / 10 Emirates


Not bad for old girls and blokes. Lets not forget they work with approxiamalty 25%-40% less cabin crew in Yc as competing airlines. As mentioned dont talk about Food,IFE problems and many other issues.
What gets me, Me Myself ,if you travel Z fare go with someone else if you dont like QF at all or PAY for a ticket.:ugh:
BTW i flee JAL recently in YC on a Z fare. if i can avoid it in the future i will.:ok:

[Me Myself]

I fly Z on QF because the shedule suits me and the connection from Europe suits me.
Not the case on other airlines.
Should I pay full fare, there is no way I would fly QF. I can't be any clearer.
Being safe isn't enough if you want to survive in today's world.
Like or not, as I said, the world can live without QF.......you can't.
And just to be clear....it is not my wish to see such a fine....then .........airline disappear.
Get your head out of your toush and see the world as it is.
No one turns his head when you walk down George street. Get used to it
That doesn't make you a lesser person however....just not the hot shot you thought you were....one calls that .....the end of puberty.
Good luck

[ejectx3]

Seriously what are you on? Do you really think any qf drivers think people turn their heads as we walk down George street? We are proud of what Qantas was, and would like to return our airline to something we can be proud of again.

[skybed]

there is CX/LH/EK,etc.wich have similar schedules but you suffer on QF. Go figure???:E

[DEFCON4]

Qantas CC once were all based in Australia.Now you have a LHR base and an Auckland base.Both bases are on lower wages and more difficult work conditions.They have no loyalty to Qantas and even less to Australia.The attitude is:see a bit of the world,party and shop.If you are a bit hung over onboard too bad for the pax.
In Sydney the CC have been essentially ostracized.You cannot visit operations for any reason.There is no service desk.The Base Operational Support desk is now operated by the newest and least experienced of CC.They are cheaper to have in this position than QAL CC.Over the last 10 years 1500 QAL CC have left either through attrition or VR.The customer service department is mangmed by people who have no clue whatsoever.The ExecutiveManger of CC does not have any qualifiacations for this position whatsoever.She is an angry person who puts "people on her radar"
Cabin Crew have had the service excellence micro managed out of them and a culture of petty reporting is now in place.The recruitment process is a farce and has been for at least ten years.The wrong people are continually employed because of nepotism.
The only base where the Qantas Service excellence survives is BNE.This base is continually at the top of Customer satisfaction surveys.No I do not live in BNE.Most of the Crew in this base were employed in the 70s and 80s.
Service on a Qantas international aircraft is now a lucky dip.So you might end up with a dud crew,an IFE that doesnt work,reading lights that don't work,a missing special meal and a delay due to an aircraft malfunction.The aircraft are aging and have not had major cabin refurb for 7 or 8 years.
Bundle this all together and you can see why travellers are opting for other carriers.
For me I've been an employee for 28 years and an Onboard Manager for 23 of those years.I can longer do my job effectively due to a lack of resources.My company issued Blackberry doesnt work in Japan because its not 3G .
There is currently a round of VR happening and I'm leaving.Dont get me wrong,I love my job and according to company generated feedback I do it well.I just can't make a difference anymore and its very clear to me that I am not the demographic they want working on their (QF)aircraft.I'm not alone.Many like me are leaving.Others will stay because they have changed their mindset and disregard management entirely.I've tried but I can't bring myself to not care.So rather than become a part of the problem I'm gone.
It makes me sad but I'm powerless to effect positive change and powerless to effect any behavioural change from a management who are in the main incompetent and dysfunctional

[ejectx3]

...and that gentlemen and ladies is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

[skybed]

the reconfigured 747's coming online shortly have 4 flight attendants looking after 270 economy passengers. the worlds best premium airline?

[ampclamp]

Defcon4, I shake my head in dismay. Such a common story throughout. I wish you the very best for your future. For the record, the vast majority of CC on QF flts I have taken over the last 25 years have been excellent, never once poor. Never. :ok:

[qlhccforum]

the reconfigured 747's coming online shortly have 4 flight attendants looking after 270 economy passengers. the worlds best premium airline?

Not true skybed, 6 crew for y/c (inc CSS), 2 for w/c, 5 for j/c (+CSM), as it is now on the 3 class.

[WorthWhat]

Sent from New Zealand. Posted without comment. It doesn't seemed to have dawned on many that the current strategy of Qantas has in effect neutered the thrust of the industrial pushes of both the engineers & the pilots.

Qantas management has made it abundantly clear that mainline will contract severely over the next few years. What this does is make any victory by the two associations, Pyrrhic. There is no point heading into PIA to get all red tail flying done under mainline T&C's if mainline flying, particularly international flying, is shrinking.

By starting a new Asian airline and consigning mainline to a slow death, they have bypassed the claims. Now whatever you think of The Plan, and I for one think it foolhardy and ill thought out, that is the current plan that the current management are embarking on.

This leaves (except for a lucky few at the top of the lists) only a few options left for mainline employees:

1. Change airlines,

2. Change careers,

3. Change The Plan by Government intervention, or,

4. Change Qantas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas) management, and by default... The Plan.

Options 1 and 2 are personal choices that may need to be made by individuals on a case by case basis. Only the individual can know what choices are available for them.

Quite a few individuals are working on Option 3. In my experience however, it is the least likely to effect the change necessary. Never underestimate the capacity of large corporations like Qantas to get their way.

Option 4 looms as the wild card. I don't know whether or not the No-Confidence motions that will be put to the AGM will be successful, nor do I know if plans are afoot to attempt to vote down the remuneration packages and cause a Board spill. Either of these options may work but likely not due to the voting power of the major shareholders.

The voting power of the major shareholders however, is something that Qantas employees may need to be seeking to attain themselves. I believe plans are afoot for an employee buyout, and am starting to come around to the viewpoint that this may be the last best hope to rescue Qantas, and the majority of its Australian employees, from the ravages of The Plan.

Qantas employees need the ability for direct input into the running of the company. This may be the way to do this. This will not be a one way street however, and any major investor will demand efficiencies from the employees as a quid pro quo to supplying the necessary capital.

Doubtless that would still mean some job losses. Qantas employees will then need to weigh up the pros and cons.

If The Plan goes ahead in its current form then the next five years will see the end of the 767 fleet with no replacement, the decimation of the 747 fleet also with no replacement, and the stagnation of the A380 fleet at pretty much its current level.

The only growth in ANY fleet MAY come from the transfer of the nine A330's currently with Jestar, to mainline.

There are a little over 300 767 pilots and around 650 747 pilots. With a ballpark figure of 150 pilots to operate 9 747's, that is 800 pilots surplus to requirements, or around 700 pilots surplus if the A330's do come back to mainline.

So the best case scenario is 700 pilots out of a job by 2016. Many of the rest will be demoted.

If an employee buyout demanded efficiencies that put 150 pilots out of a job, but gave the remaining employees seats on the board, a new CEO and at least a new Chairman, plus a cut of the profit; to me it is a no brainer. However I am unlikely to be one of the pilots losing a job in that scenario.

This is going to come up in the very near future. All Qantas employees need to be fully aware of all the options and carefully consider the choices in front of them.

[UPPERLOBE]

Well Defcon4, pretty much the same reasons as to why after 40 years in Line Maint I took VR.

I found that my experience, ability and interest in being a valued staff member meant sweet F all to the bonus driven management knob jockey's.

I have been retired for over 5 years and it still rankles me, I can't believe what the company is up to and believe me in spite of the media snow job I know that you guy's are on the right track.

[TIMA9X]

Defcon4, I shake my head in dismay. Such a common story throughout. I wish you the very best for your future. For the record, the vast majority of CC on QF flts I have taken over the last 25 years have been excellent, never once poor. Never.I second that, and I have great respect for you all over my 35 year association with Q . Defcon4, it hurts me as well to read your post, so true, and it makes me angry to think about the damage the guys at the top have done to this great airline since GD took the helm, now version 2 is following in his footsteps relentlessly.

.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-P4psLhmXxTs/TnMdgRaWeKI/AAAAAAAAAA8/GQ1hBGJRB_4/s640/AJ-buys-%252520new-suit-3.jpg

[standard unit]

I'm cabin crew for almost 25 years and sadly have to agree too with everything that DEFCON4 has written.

He's leaving. I plan on being around to turn off the light when it's all over.

[Sunfish]

After reading Defcon4's comment it is obvious that Qantas is going to end up as a brand name of some other international group, probably Singapore Airlines.

If I were Qantas right now, I would be hoarding cash, getting out of Asia, rolling Jetstar into mainline, bringing maintenance back on shore as fast as I can, hiring Australians, refurbishing what aircraft I have and cutting management numbers to the bone.

The reason I say this is because the global financial crisis is far from over and the worst is yet to come. Europe has enough money to bail itself out despite the grumblings of the Germans. However, there is not enough money in the world to bail out America.

When this crisis finally hits, as it must this Spring, it will have catastrophic effects on the demand for air travel. I don't know which overseas airlines and MRO's are going to survive. The entire Qantas business strategy is far too complicated to withstand major cost increases in dealing internationally with suppliers, nor the uncertainty associated with a major contraction of available credit and higher interest rates that must happen.

To put that another way, the cascading effect of collapsing Banks and financial institutions will put various businesses out of operation overnight, and no one can predict which ones will be hit or when. Try telling the receiver who is liquidating some Asian MRO that the engines and bits all over his hangar floor belong to you and that you want your aircraft back in flyable condition right now and see how far you get.

I could literally see a situation where no credit is available and a QF 747 has to carry cash or gold to pay for its fuel and landing charges as they arise.

As for Australian Labour costs? When the rest of the GFC hits, labour costs will no longer be an issue.


In my own case, I'm praying that I can get out of the stock market in the next few weeks. I'm stuck in it at the moment for legal reasons you don't wish to know about.

[DUXNUTZ]

Nice job at fear mongering there Sunfish. Whether there will be a recession or not I don't know but it seems like everyone here in Oz is doing their best to talk themselves into it.

[UPPERLOBE]

It can happen here too...

I seem to recall that when AN went south there was a 737 in BNE undergoing a 'D' check. That a/c was eventually parted out and scrapped.

[Mr Leslie Chow]

Defcon4,

Good luck in your new path. Unfortunately for you and other QAL staff this is exactly what management want you all to do, minimize their salary base. Effectively get rid of the 'old wood' as it were and get all F/A's to be on Quokka incomes. Look at Tiger, they have a projected 'life expectancy' as it were for their f/a's, you don't think management here have a figure in this disposable world we live in?

So in one way, the Q staff voting Quokka conditions in showed the company that yes people will work for less. They gave you a few thousand to say thanks and the rot began. Expect a B scale to do the same for Mainline Pilots.

The same has began throughout the company, baggage handlers, catering and paper pushing jobs at QCC, offer less money and people still come, maybe it's the staff travel 'perk' that keeps them coming???

This whole 'planets colliding' time is intended to cause everyone to strike, get the public offside and cause a massive rout.

So far I don't think it is going to plan for them.

[skybed]

under the previous governments work choices, QF had BKK/ AKL/LHR bases setup and running at very low rates for cabin crew(my understanding is that AKL have not had an EBA for 15 month now). Quokka's was part of a carrot put in front of a 5 year EBA to get the mohicans onside. it worked. not much left to bargain with in the next EBA.

[stubby jumbo]

Just stumbled upon this piece of sheer literary brilliance -whilst sitting on the can reading the latest issue of QF-(no) News !

How does change affect us?
Many people go through a number of stages as they try to cope with a major change—be it at work or moving house.
These stages are:
■■ a loss phase—feeling empty, sad, often not
wanting to let go of how things were;
■■ an emotional phase—feelings of anger,
regret, excitement;
■■ an exploration phase—we start to explore
what the change will mean, test if it works
for us;
and ■■ an acceptance and commitment phase—the
start of moving on, embracing new ways of being.

Don't know about any one here......BUT -I haven't moved out of the second stage yet and I have NO intention as I'm outta here in 4 weeks.

But really and truly -who writes this crap. Do they really think we are going to accept this ****e from whoever wrote this... as an insight:ugh:

Like DEFCON....I have had a gutful of all the lies ,spin and assorted bullying that pervades this place. Yes....it was once a great place to be.

For me....I'm skipping straight to the last phase of change:

■■ an acceptance and commitment phase—the
start of moving on, embracing new ways of being.

I accept that things will NEVER be the same as when we had it so good.

Customers were called passengers.

Safety was always front and centre

Service came with a smile and was uniquely Australian.

Sadly......Shareholders, Spin and Corporate Greed now rule.

Its now a race to the bottom.

[Sunfish]

Duxnuts, it ain't "fear mongering" you had better hope that (a) The European central bank reaches agreement with Germany about the issuance of Eurobonds and (b) The American "Super Congress" Committee can make meaningful expenditure cuts in the American budget and (c) Obama gets his job creationplan through Congress.

(a) WIll protect Europe and the Euro.

Without(b) and (c) America goes into a vicious economic death spiral as attempts to cut budget deficits cost more jobs, which reduces Federal tax revenue, which makes it necessary for more budget cuts.

When that happens, America ends up defaulting on foreign debt and the international banking system implodes since no bank can safely lend to any other bank because they don't know their exposure to American debt.

When that happens, international trade becomes problematic because the lines of credit will be withdrawn - and that affects Airlines a lot because of their huge cash flows and international exposure. To put that another way, what happens to the ICAO clearing house in Montreal??????

[surfside6]

These nimrods now find themselves in a bind with numbers.
Many of those who are keen to get out of the place have been told that no definite exit date is available.
The reason....wait for it......they are short of Crew....in particular Supervisors.
They have been short of CSS for at least 4 years!!!So why didnt they promote to address the shortfall?
Incompetent buffoons!

[Worrals in the wilds]

Stubby, that sounds like a bastardization of the 'five stages of grief' theory with some dodgy corporate spin added.

From: Coping with Grief and Loss: Support for Grieving and Bereavement (http://helpguide.org/mental/grief_loss.htm)
"Are there stages of grief? In 1969, psychiatrist Elisabeth Kübler-Ross introduced what became known as the “five stages of grief.” These stages of grief were based on her studies of the feelings of patients facing terminal illness, but many people have generalized them to other types of negative life changes and losses, such as the death of a loved one or a break-up.
The five stages of grief:


Denial: “This can’t be happening to me.”
Anger: “Why is this happening? Who is to blame?”
Bargaining: “Make this not happen, and in return I will ____.”
Depression: “I’m too sad to do anything.”
Acceptance: “I’m at peace with what happened.”
Kübler-Ross herself never intended for these stages to be a rigid framework that applies to everyone who mourns. In her last book before her death in 2004, she said of the five stages of grief, “They were never meant to help tuck messy emotions into neat packages. They are responses to loss that many people have, but there is not a typical response to loss, as there is no typical loss.Our grieving is as individual as our lives.”"

She probably didn't intend them to be turned into trite Dilbertisms either, but you get that.
Good luck to you, Defcon 4 and others with your future plans. :ok:

[Sunfish]

Defcon4, your experience mirrors one i had in the Information technology business. Luckily for me I observed it almost as an outsider since I was a manager at this company, and not a very good or experienced on at that.

Let me tell you a story..........

The company was running real time operational systems for a wide variety of clients. These systems were "life critical". The systems mostly ran on big mainframes and were written in COBOL. Now bear with me for a minute.......

One of the Directors was a technology freak - a real Geek. His house was totally networked and he lived and breathed technology. Anyway, after seeing too many smoke and mirrors presentations at computer shows around the world - big expensive presentations like banquets where golden microprocessors suddenly appear as if by magic out of carved ice table decorations when you are on your Third glass of Moet and suchlike, this genius decided that Digital Vax computers were the way of the future. Further junkets, presentations, expensive banquets and hot and cold running women convinced him that object oriented programming was also the way of the future.


So this idiot succumbed to marketing pressure and convinced his fellow Directors that Digital Equipment Corporation computers and Object Oriented Programming was the way of the future. They would be vastly cheaper to run and more importantly less people would be required to maintain and extend the systems. The Directors bought this attractive idea. This had immediate effects:

(1) Now there were a lot of experienced IT professionals who knew that there was no way Digitals light weight computers could handle the processing loads required of the company and clients life critical real time systems.

However the Directors decided that anybody who tried to argue with the decision or question the assumptions was branded as an "enemy" and was either sidelined if they were essential staff or fired if they were not.

This was how Sunfish got a senior management job at the company - they literally told me that my lack of experience was valuable! I was not "infected" with the old ways of thinking, therefore I could try and make the new way work! My ignorance was my strength! I was conceited enough to believe it. I didn't know that the task was impossible.


(2) All the mainframe computers and software that ran all the life critical real time systems day to day, and had done for years were immediately branded Legacy systems - not part of the great new future of the company.

All the old experienced COBOL programmers were immediately labeled Legacy staff. Most of them were well over Forty years old with at least Twenty years COBOL programming experience.

...And of course since they were a "Legacy" they were expected to just fade away. There would be no investment in new equipment for legacy systems. There would be no training for legacy people. The COBOL programmers were literally told that they were "too old" to learn or understand the exciting new concepts of the world of Object Oriented Programming (eg. Inheritance, persistence, etc. etc.)

The Legacy staff were also told that their work habits and practices were archaic - these were the things that allowed them to build quality, absolutely bullet proof, computer programs.


So what did the company do next? Well, it hired Sunfish as a manager of systems integration - something which he knew absolutely nothing about. The company then hired dozens and dozens of bright young computer science graduates who had no experience. These kids were then expensively trained in objected oriented computer languages for months at company expense.

The company then spent tens of millions on consultants. We had business process re engineering teams, corporate culture rebalancing advisors, software architects who charged Tens of Thousand of Dollars a week to produce intellectual constructs or schemas. All staff including me were sent on Seven day live in neurolinguistic communication courses at very nice conference centres - because geeks don't talk to each other very well.

We had workshops, conferences, facilitation meetings, roll outs, buy ins and every other sort of corporate junket you can imagine - all arranged and delivered by very expensive consultants. I was just principled enough to forgo invitations to at least three extravagant world tours to attend conferences arranged by the computer and software vendors.

Dozens and dozens of very fancy Digital Equipment Corporation computers were purchased and millions in networking hardware etc. etc. The company specifically instructed that no Intel or IBM machines were to be pruchased even if they were a quarter of the price. UNIX was also absolutely totally verboten.

Meanwhile all the legacy programmers were keeping the legacy systems running as best they could. They didn't get any of the expensive training or perks did they? They were not part of the bright new future.

Now about this time, after watching Forty million dollars get p1ssed against the wall, I left the company, and thank God I did. Let me tell you what happened next;

The you beaut object oriented programs running on the super duper Digital Equipment Computers failed spectacularly to deliver. The software was full of bugs and the hardware couldn't cope with even a fraction of the Four million transactions a day we were handling.

There was no cure. The stuff couldn't be fixed or rewritten because it was all done exactly the way the consultants told the company to do it.

The consultants ran away overseas. Digital Equipment Corporation went broke. The bright young staff, all very good looking beautiful people, took their expensive training and found other jobs. They could see the company was heading for a train wreck. The Directors had bet the farm on a failed technology, failed programming languages and failed business concepts.

..And all the time what was left of the legacy programmers kept the mainframes purring along..

The company was "acquired" at a bargain price by EDS or some such. The Directors and senior staff were "let go". The investors lost their money.

And guess who remained? The legacy staff - COBOL programmers and the big Fujistu mainframes. Just about that time the spectre of "year 2000" arose in the computer industry. The COBOL programmers - "dinosaurs" "Legacy staff", "Too Old", "Wedded to the past", were suddenly in great demand. They updated all the old programs then were contracted out to deal with all the other systems around the country. The old mainframes and COBOL systems are still running.

One of those COBOL programmers made enough money to retire out of year 2000. In 2001 he bought land near Heathcote in Victoria and established a winery. I drop in to buy a few bottles every now and again. He does pretty well.

So now you know where this horse**** about "Legacy" people and practices comes from - an industry populated with very expensively paid bull**** artists.

Good luck with China and the 787 Alan.


For many years now, the Qantas Wine Panel has navigated its way through our wine regions to seek out benchmark wines that tell the story of Australia. Whether it be a semillon from the Hunter Valley, or a luscious Coonawarra cab sav, the wines onboard will reflect what is going on in our vineyards and wineries.

As I’m sure you will realise, it is not possible to carry all of the wines mentioned in this guide on your flight, but a selection of drops, which will complement chef Neil Perry’s menu (page 9), has been chosen for you to enjoy. We urge you to raise a glass, explore our regional wines and keep the Qantas Inflight Guide


www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/flying/inTheAir/.../inflightWineGuide.pdf

[unionist1974]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz , argh , zzzzzzzzzzz , argh , Oh you again Sunfish zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz . Have you finished yet ! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[pilotboy13]

Really how does Steve Creedy sleep at night. His article in the Australian today was absolute rubbish...if you work for Qantas or spouse their PR rubbish, just admit it and be done with it. Because I do work for them and even i dont buy that....

[brodle]

Sunfish,

The USA government has most of its foreign debt in US dollars (reserve currency for now!) and can instruct its Reserve bank to print cash and buy its debt bonds (therefore keeping interest rates low). It is unlikely to default on its foreign debts.

I guess there is a slow default of sorts by way of a devalued USD due to excess printing.

Your eurobonds analysis is spot on.

[DEFCON4]

The circumstances described by Sunfish are definitely applicable Q except that the inexperienced bright young things are dysfunctional and incompetent and have not been afforded the benefit of any company based training.If and when the Rat turns up its toes these people will be tainted by the circumstances and most likely be unable to garner future employment in the aviation industry.
I have been surprised by three job offers that have been made because of my experience.Virgin,Emirates and City Rail have all offered positions.This has come about through friends who now work for these organisations.Apparently the culture in these companies appreciates the value of knowledge gained through experience.Work ethic is also valued.I may not be working on an aircraft but I may still be in transportation

[Octane]

Hello Sunfish,

The link to the Qantas wine guide no longer works. I was curious to read it because a month ago I travelled Melb-Perth with Qantas economy.
I had a red wine (well some of it) with the meal. 10 minutes later I handed it back to the FA. "Is there something wrong sir"? Umm, well, its horrid.. "Yes, its not very nice is it"!!!
FA returns 5 minutes later with a different red. "Try this one sir".
5 minutes later Octane uses call button (I rarely use it, don't like to disturb staff)
Octane: Can I have a beer please, hands back another horrid wine....

A week later I get an email request to complete a customer "dissatification" survey from Q.
In the comments part I wrote, "Australia is awash with cheap good quality wine of all varieties, why do you insist on serving cr^p wine in economy?" Didn't bother asking why the red is always chilled with the white..

Sunfish, I read your IT story with a sense of deja vous...
I was once employed at a large multinational. All was good until they employed a youngish "On the move, smooth talking, walk the walk, talk the talk" type manager with rather poor technical skills. Over a period of time the staff who ensured they lunched with her got the better appraisals. Me and some of the others who did the bulk of the work were too busy to take leisurely 1 hour lunches. I was labelled "not a team player". I too resigned not long after.
About a year later, the bean counters decided the lab need "restructuring". As staff left or were promoted (the latter the lunch goers of course) they were replaced by "outsourced" contract employees on less money, no holiday pay, sick pay etc. You know who managed to organise herself a cosy redundancy..
Now 10 years down the track all the lab workers are contractors earning absurdly low money. They have no career potential with the company, are disgruntled and frankly have little interest in their work. The good ones come and go ASAP and the indifferent ones stay so over time the calibre of staff is falling.
I saw all this unfold because a few weeks after I left I got a call from the 2nd in command ("she" would not talk to me), they were in trouble and needed my help, on their terms. Nope, not interested. Another call a week later, "please,we're desparate". OK, then alright then, but on my terms. I worked there another 15 years as a specialist on 3 times the money they offered. Tossers.........
So, a large multinational is putting their reputation on the line because they are too lousy to invest in a professional, dedicated and contented workforce in the lab, all to save a few measly bucks. One major QC screwup has the potential to cost the company millions of dollars or worse, let alone the cost of loss of reputation. What a bunch of lunatics...........:ugh:

AJ, I hope you and your mates read this thread, be warned.
Then again, you probably don't give a rat's tail....
I would not be buying Q shares.


Cheers

Octane

[The The]

I am far from any kind of serious wine buff, but I have always found the wine served on QF to be very good.

The correct link is

Qantas wine guide (https://www.qantas.com.au/WineTasting/WineGuide.do)

[unionist1974]

Oh really!

[AnotherRedWineThanks]

I expect he sleeps well at night because he wrote what his editor wanted. Don't know what motivates the editor, but it's not too hard to guess.

[stubby jumbo]

As Surfside mentioned in an earlier post...... "history just keeps repeating".

I recall that after every VR/CR offer of late -we have a severe crew shortage -'cause the clowns who do the figures can't add up .

How hard is it?

So I wasn't surprised when -the phone rings late this 'arvo from Fat Boy Slim- asking whether I could postpone my exit date -"due to crew resourcing issues for next Bid Period".......read

WE HAVE STUFFED THE NUMBERS UP AGAIN AND WE NEED MORE CREW !!!

Naturally , my response was -NAH :p

Treat once loyal people like crap long enough and eventually they will say :
JAM IT.

My attitude is just one of thousands in this place now.

Just.... "show me the money" chumps......I have been screwed over way too many times(20 hour TOD's,KPI reviews,interrogations etc etc) plus I have witnessed the wholesale destruction of a once great airline due to the greed and incompetence of those who laughingly call themselves "managers".

Suck it up.

Enjoy the day tomorrow boys and girls (contingency team).....chucking bags and getting abused by punters all day.

'am sure Wirth, Joyce and Clifford will be all tucked away in their warm bunkers on QCA/9.....away from the mayhem-giving interviews for 2GB and Sky news.

"Oh -they are all bad people these TWU union types......we have been trying to negotiate in good faith blah blah blah" We cannot give them the EBA guarantees that they request......(yet we can find $5m for the Leprechaun)

The blatant hypocrisy is sickening.:yuk:


"What you sow...you shall reap !"

[apache]

also because he travels courtesy of Qantas.

Lets face it... If you are employed by ONE company, and then another company comes along and says "hey... here are some MORE benefits from us, just for doing what your original company wants" ... who is gonna say no?

it would be like working for QLINK, and getting a backhander from REX to fly a DHC-8 to Dubbo!.

[TIMA9X]

Really how does Steve Creedy sleep at night. His article in the Australian today was absolute rubbish...Yeah, I agree. You are probably referring to this gem, a Creedy special reminds me of the 89 stuff we all had to endure..
Qantas cancels 28 flights, delays another 27 in response to strikes | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-cancels-28-flights-delays-another-27-in-response-to-strikes/story-e6frg95x-1226140772526)

Qantas estimates more than 10,000 passengers have been affected by industrial; action by the engineers since it began in late August.

“The TWU is intent on causing disruptions to Qantas passengers and we are doing everything we possibly can to reduce the delays and cancellations,” Qantas group executive Olivia Wirth said.

Qantas argues the union’s pay claim of 15 per cent over the next three years was not sustainable in the current economic climate.
The above got right up my nose but par for the course with Creedy...

Steve Creedy visited Seattle courtesy of Qantas and Boeing

Boeing's Dreamliner proves 'a joy to fly' | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/boeings-dreamliner-proves-a-joy-to-fly/story-e6frg95x-1226138162796)


You don't have to dig too deep to find who's side Creedy is on, I am afraid that's what we are up against here in Australia...
Remember this video on August the 24th

XMRby0F4TE0

Says it all really, I wonder if they gave him an IPAD as well?


If you agree, possibly good if the mods moved this to the Aug 24 thread as these observations have been collected and discussed on there and good to have a single thread with all the records leading up to the 24th and events after. Sooner or later someone is going to trip up and it will be on this thread for all to see.:ok:

[600ft-lb]

While we're on the subject of convenient spin I wonder when a journalist will write an article on the CEO and the Board who have

Overseen the decline of approximately $7billion of shareholder value and lead the company to have a share price equal to less then cash in the bank and assets on the books.

If they're happy to espouse the arbitrary values given to them by one party in the game why won't they put into print the obvious one ? $6 - $1.50 ....

Surely that's worthy of a page filler on the Friday aviation section ?

[Syd eng]

Am hearing from a friend in BNE that QF locked out all the baggage staff this morning. This may be the start of something really big.

[reacher]

Sunrise did mention the lock out and the TWU managed to get the least presentable bloke they could find in front of the camera to answer a few questions. Credit where it's due, he did get a couple of good points in.

[KRUSTY 34]

Olivia Wirth on channel 7 in Sydney about half an hour ago. No surprises there. Looking for all the world like a mangey cat!

Consistantly refers to Qantas as a good employee! She can't even get the terminology right. :rolleyes: Insists that it wasn't a lockout, but Qantas attempting to maintain consitancy of service! Chr!st only knows?

The real kicker of course was the mantra about needing to get back to the negotiating table. :} I don't work for QF, but it must drive you guys mad (it certainly does me) to see management on national TV, continually telling bold faced lies!

Well at least they're predictable, if not competant!

[rivet head]

Poor Olivia. On abc news this morning , Virginia T made her look like a absolute goose re lockout of workers this morning(funny).Even funnier was the comment from my wife saying that I looked better than her after I've done my nightshifts.

[TIMA9X]

Poor OliviaYeah, more like an angry school girl who lost her Ipod at the airport.

here is the ABC news 24 9.00 am version for those who missed it.


qj3ppNrAe9M

[Romulus]

Olivia Wirth on channel 7 in Sydney about half an hour ago. No surprises there.

Consistantly refers to Qantas as a good employee! She can't even get the terminology right. :rolleyes: Insists that it wasn't a lockout, but Qantas attempting to maintain consitancy of service!

Normally I'd say play the ball not the person but really, as a professional communicator, she needs to do much better. Appearance is essential, whilst the TWU bloke looked like a TWU bloke should and thus provided conviction to his message Wirth looked neither professional nor did she sound composed. All of which weakened her message substantially.

Long hair is a bad look for corporates. If you want to be a PA then fine, but overall long hair makes you look less serious than short hair. You may prefer long hair, you can even argue that it should make no difference. Problem is that it does. If she wants to be given respect then she needs an image consultant for makeup, get the hair into a more conservative style (even a pony tail) and generally look more corporate.

And as for her speech patterns when answering, what a shocker. Apart from the whole employee thing she always seems to mangle her answers rather than coming across as cool and calm and thus in charge.

One question she should be asked every time she appears is how much of a raise she got last year and with her last promotion. She'll probably respond with "that's private" or somesuch, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what the follow up question should be.

Stay strong, but be flexible, so you get teh best outcome for yourselves. Currently I'm intrigued but definitely enjoying the Virgin business offerings so QF are definitely under the pump. Problem is that you need to make sure you leave enough water in the system to keep it going, if everyone leaves for the competitor then your victory will be Pyrrhic at best. Equally same goes for QF management.

Interesting times.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Qantas attempting to maintain consitancy of service! Chr!st only knows?
What, consistently bad?
I thought Qantas were already managing that themselves without needing any assistance from the Big Bad Unions.:E

Was it about making the staff/TWU look as bad as possible by maximizing the impact? :confused:

[KRUSTY 34]

My thoughts as well Worrals'.

[Pinky the pilot]

Just caught a little of the Finance section of ABC TV news last night but noted that Qantas shares had headed south a bit.

Another sign of things to come?:uhoh::sad:

[Worrals in the wilds]

So out of interest, how did the liability work if one of the chairbourne division who were 'helping out' Qantas on the ramp got injured? Say one of them got their fingers jammed in a conveyor belt, got squashed between trolleys and a tug or fell out of a hold?

Presumably Qantas would have covered them (they're 'helping out' and all), but they'd still be hurt. Accidents happen on the ramp, even with trained people. It's a relatively risky work environment, particularly for a smattering of unsupervised office dwellers wearing their best camping gear and blinking in the bright sunshine. If Miss Qantas Foundation was seriously injured (which happens to people on even the best of ramps manned by trained and experienced staff) in what was basically a media stunt, would Qantas management actually give a toss or is it all part of 'the cost of doin' business?' :ooh:

I'm seriously glad that didn't happen.

Theoretically, let's say I got sick of aviation :} and decided to become an office dweller :}:} in a mining company or with one of the port operators. If the 'unskilled' labor went out on strike, would I be expected to volunteer to pitch in at the coalface or on the dock despite zero experience and little training? It's an honest question, because I don't recall seeing it happen in an IR dispute since the advent of the OH&S age. Maybe it's standard IR 101. Me, I think that the fact that Qantas not only allowed it but actively encouraged it to happen for what appeared to be 90% media stunt shows how much Qantas thinks of its employees, even the eager-to-please management lapdog types.

It's all jolly good fun on the ramp. Right up until the moment someone ends up pinned under something heavy because they (or someone else) made a mistake.

[KRUSTY 34]

Extremely valid points Worral's.

What about the allegations of mobile phone usage on the ramp, and in the proximity of refuelling aircraft! Will mangement pay the fine and go to bat for the individual(s) concerned? Maybe you people who think it's OK to scab (lets not mince words) on your fellow employees, might need to re-think your decision to willingly take on jobs you are neither qualified nor competant to perform.

Mind you it's not surprising given the atrocious mismanagement at the top.

The unions need to pursue this matter with utmost vigor. Be interesting to see what spin Ms Worth will put on that!

[packrat]

So who was doing their job while they were doing someone else's job?

[porch monkey]

No one. And therein lies half of the problem.

[600ft-lb]

I find it amazing that a whole swag of office dwellers were able to be absent for almost their entire 8 hours shift without a dent on their departments productivity.
What about all the high powered meetings that were scheduled ?
What about the important safety inter(dist)ractions they missed out on performing on the evil workforce ?
What about the KPI's results that didn't get put into powerpoint ?
What would the bain and co consultants who didn't get a chance to further strategize and synergize and wanketize the people who are paid **** into yet another shelf company paid flat rate minimum wages (QGS) ?
Is the friday flyer going to get produced this week or is that important publication being missed ? I love hearing about the jet fuel price or thanking the rest of the workforce for handling the disruptions of an evil union. (All thats left is the flight attendants and the AME's and the company has the full house at war.)
Did we miss out on another company statement on the intranet home page about some Deputy Manager of A4 Paper Supply Chain Analyst who has contributed the last 2 years of his life to 'the corporation' and has decided to move on to greener pastures yet his manager thought the rest of the 27000 'corporations' employees would care ?

It's all really important stuff that swathes of staff who inhabit the vast building complexes behind the action, it's just as well some of the very important work they do could wait another day or week so they could drive a pallet loader or use a mobile phone next to a refueling truck.

Maybe they would like to do the job full time with QGS, $17/hour flat rates of pay $680/week, no staff travel, worse long service leave, no weekend loadings. I really wonder why the TWU is taking industrial action when QGS are very very actively recruiting staff right now on the above conditions whilst attending 'negotiations' with the TWU for months on end in bad faith.

Thanks corporate backenders, hope you'll come out to certify the RTS when the LAME's take simultaneous nationwide action. Oh wait, you can't get a certificate in RTS in 2 minutes...

[KRUSTY 34]

DEADWOOD! :}

[TIMA9X]

u6BkaTnDw58

For the record, this is last nights 7.30 report for those who were out of the country or missed it. There is no doubt now, the management come over as very heavy handed and think they have won the first round... again OW sounds like that schoolgirl who still can't find her ipod. I feel sorry for the editor who has to chop around all her dud lines...:)

[amos2]

Oh Dear!...wot a massive cock up on all sides!

Olivier has got to go!

Steve has got to go!

And Tony has got to go!

This has got to be the biggest mother of industrial cock ups of all time because of the incompetent personal involved in key positions!

And the scabs are out in force on day one!

34 scabs today! What's the percentage re total shift numbers?

Want to enlighten us Tony??

[SOPS]

OW says "QF is a good employee""????? she cant even get the context correct:ugh:

[bulstrode]

Everywhere across the business you are confronted by people like Olivia Wirth.They are second and third stingers.Paid a fair whack,given a title with a six syllable description these individuals are poorly educated,have little experience and are generally out of their depth.
This is the new management team...barely potty trained with no one around to show them how to wipe their own corporate bum

[V-Jet]

Slightly off topic, but this got a laugh from me:

Newstopia - Qantas Public Relations - YouTube

[Mr Leslie Chow]

Classic and on the money

With the language I doubt this stay on here though.

Bring back the hitler clip dammit, that was absolute gold!

[industry insider]

I can just imagine Olivia saying that to the journos when she gets home and re lives her answers when she sees herself on TV!! Priceless.

[TIMA9X]

when she gets home and re lives her answers when she sees herself on TV!!Yep, I shudder to think...:)

UK6eMdpoR94

.

[airsupport]

Well Diane is much better than Olivia. ;):ok:

[amos2]

Better get with it guys'! You are going down the gurgler, big time!
Qantas will be gone by Christmas, just like Julia!

[B772]

More rumours about the new Asian based QF premium carrier.

It appears Joyce has been studying the London based BA A318 trans Atlantic operation as well as the BA subsidiary called Openskies that flys Paris based B757's in a 2 level business class trans Atlantic.

Openskies emails you the day before your flight a reminder with details such as the flight details, menu, weather and names of the entire crew.

[Fliegenmong]

I do hope that due diligence has been done.....dealing with these Asian companies and all that.....

Matthew Perrin's cautionary Chinese tale: Maley (http://www.smartcompany.com.au/legal/20110921-matthew-perrin-s-cautionary-chinese-tale-maley.html)

"And Perrin's experience is an absolute case study of the perils of investing in a country without a strong understanding of the business culture."

OK, sure greed was the downfall, pure & utter greed $100 mill not enough for ya????

Knew this chap from a distance from a past (school) life, I remember quite a school bully but it is a foggy past.... :rolleyes:

What was that Sunfish, about Old China Hands?? :hmm:

Careful dem chopsticks aren't booby trapped 'dere.......:\

[Sunfish]

Wait till Qantas is skinned in China, as it will be.

[V-Jet]

Leslie - I was looking for the Fuhrer Bunker clip when I found that, I can't believe it has disappeared. Must be somewhere.

Sunfish - I think the the success or failure of AJ's Quixotic asian push is irrelevant to him and his puppeteers. Much like a small software company that thinks they might one day be bought out by Microsoft or Apple, I believe the object of the exercise is either:

1) These entities might succeed. Bonuses all round for outstanding management in the face of adversity from staff. Happy Days!

2) These entities are failures but are bought out by Tamesek, China Southern etc. Bonuses all round for outstanding management in the face of adversity from staff. Happy Days!

3) These entities are successful enough to be bought out for a good price by Tamesek, China Southern etc. Bonuses all round for outstanding management in the face of adversity from staff. Happy Days!

4) These entities fail cataclysmically and ruin Qantas. Five years of good bonuses not only for outstanding management in the face of adversity from staff, but also for the tremendous stress of dealing with appalling market conditions on a day to day basis due to (insert crises that were completely out of our control). Happy Days!

Much as it finally dawned on the hero of the '39-'45 war in that clip referred to above, no matter how good management is, if the people under them fail to rise to the challenges then how can it possibly be anyone else's fault if they fail?

Heads I win, tails you lose??

PS:If one didn't think Qantas' management was as good as it is, one could be appalled that the appearance of their spokeswoman would get her sent home from her first trip as a flight attendant for being totally unsightly. Surely it would not be too much to ask to find someone who could at least comply with their OWN appearance standards???

[V-Jet]

Grooming Standards for women.

• Hair is to be styled, and neat and tidy in appearance.

• Hair shall not completely cover the collar on the uniform. If hair is shoulder length or longer, it shall be braided or plaited or tied back low at the nape of the neck. Hair pulled back should be no higher than mid-ear level.

• Ponytails should be tied low at the nape of the neck and be no longer than 30cm. If ponytail were to exceed 30cm in length when tied as above, hair shall be plaited.

• Plaits shall be secured in such a way that they hang no longer than 30cm down the back.

• Hair accessories shall complement the overall professional image of the uniform and be either black or tortoiseshell.

[UPPERLOBE]

It'll be a sad day when the inevitable happens.

Seems to me that in today's business world whoever can bullsh1t the best and has mates ready to snow any opposition with spin and lies wins the game.

With the spoils always going to the victors, pity about the collateral damage, obviously a narcissist can only see themselves in that mirror.

What happened to proprietary ethics & business morals?

Once the western standard of living has been lowered to third world standards where will these parasites seek out the next billion in plunder?

What was that old tale about killing the golden goose.

[AlphaLord]

These two Australian icons are the two worst run companies of the last decade.Its like a badly kept secret that nobody knowledges.Corporate governance runs parallel to the performance of the business.The corporate governance of these two companies appears to be non existent.
Fosters has been sold to overseas interests.Surely a Qantas sale can not be far behind ?

[UPPERLOBE]

Fosters has been split back into separate beer & wine divisions, with the CUB beer division always profitable and the wine having to pull it's socks up.

Any Qantas sale is limited by the Qantas sale act, hence the current farce.

Just reading about Fosters and found a report on the 2011 AGM, the shareholders voted 99% to hive the wine division off and have Carlton United Brewery stand alone.

Pity we can't get 99% of Qantas shareholders to insist that J* is hived off and made to stand on it's own.

On another tack, checked out the Boeing customer list, Qantas is number 38 hence 438 838 etc, all those lovely 787's must be going to be -38's because you know who does not have a Boeing customer number.

[Seabreeze]

How can this work? I can think of 3 possibilities:

* SQ and CX etc turn their backs or open their wallets to the new airline (will not happen),
* Business pax giving up their valuable networking opportunities available through existing asian airlines business and first class lounges (very unlikely),
* Deals being struck between naive QF people and existing asian airlines which are in the best interests of the existing airlines, and with layers of subtle arrangements which will ensure QF gets the worst end of the deal financially (very likely; remember how Valuair had great problems getting routes even though the AOC was granted quickly).

Maybe there are other possibilities but I see option 3 as the likely outcome.



I would bet on this, but I can't find anyone to take on the bet!

SB

[DJ737]

On another tack, checked out the Boeing customer list, Qantas is number 38 hence 438 838 etc, all those lovely 787's must be going to be -38's because you know who does not have a Boeing customer number.

And your point is......?

Plenty of -38's flying around the planet and they are not operated by QF. :rolleyes:

[adsyj]

Ladies and Gents,

At the risk of being expelled, I actually feel a bit sorry for Olivia Wirth.

She is a product of the inept management that runs this place. Somebody further along the management trough has hired Olivia and placed her in this role. Maybe she was the cheapest option.

I agree with the mantra often expressed here that we should play the ball and not the man(or women) and I will try to refrain from making any criticism of a personal nature. However it is hard not to make some comment as to her personal appearance just by virtue of her position.

She has a job to do at a tough time and she appears to be a loyal servant to her masters. However My feeling is eventually she will be thrown under the bus by Management. I am sure she will end up with the big golden handshake the rest of management eventually gouge out but at the end of the day she is just a pawn in a bigger game like the rest of us.

More importantly she is living proof of inept management. I am sure she is quite capable of certain aspects of her job, but fronting the media is not one of them.

V-Jet has posted above the grooming standards Q require of Cabin crew and tech crew can find themselves with an unpleasant notation in our personal file very quickly if we let our standards slip. One would expect that somebody somewhere in management could have a word or do they really not care that much? I feel bad that she is now being parodied on television because at the end of the day it reflects on the whole company. I know management don't care about the brand but until they give me the pink slip I do.

[POT100]

Well said bulstrode!

You only have to look at how many board members have MBA's to realise what top quality management we have..It will surprise you!.

Having worked for various airlines over the years I have never seen such a bunch of amateurs as here at QF..But thats what you get when you put your mates and golfing buddys in jobs where they are totally out of their depth.

They really haven't a clue... and quite frankly, its embarassing!!!:ugh:

[600ft-lb]

I agree with the comments on OW, there is no point attacking her, she's just doing her job. He job is to be the corporate mouthpiece and corporations are inherently psychopathic personalities (seeing as laws state corporations are people) anyway, in other words, corporations in general can't help but be uncompassionate, narcissistic arseholes, they were born like that.

She's just a victim of the circumstance, that position a few years ago would've been a breeze, just a faceless corporate placeholder putting another feather in their linkedin hat for a few years before moving on. The ball is the corporation and she's their sacrificial public mouthpiece, this experience is more likely to damage her further career progression elsewhere in a PR role more then anything, I almost feel sorry for her or anyone in that role.

[SpannerTwister]

Not too sure about the sudden outpouring of support for Liv ...........

It seems to me that she is being criticised for being a poor communicator / having poor dress sense / not being "styled" appropriately for her job.

Surely, all of the above IS her job ?

As the official Qantas spokesperson shouldn't she communicate (verbally and professionally) in a manner befitting her position (job).

Sort of like "Fred Pilot" being involved in a crash through lack of preparation, is it not fair (and appropriate) to criticise Fred in this situation ?

ST

[Worrals in the wilds]

My feeling is eventually she will be thrown under the bus by Management.

Thrown under an airbus maybe (or a JCPL), like the other management flunkies who were playing rampies on Tuesday? :}
I don't feel sorry for her, or anyone else who is 1. wilfully incompetent and 2. happy to spruik management BS about Qantas being a great employer (sorry, employee :p) when it's blatantly obvious to the outside world that Qantas operational staff are treated like crap. The audacity is absolutely astounding, and even if it's evil AJ coming up with this stuff, she's saying it.

I am sure she is quite capable of certain aspects of her job, but fronting the media is not one of them.


It's a pretty key part of that job. It's a plum position and hundreds of competent, shiny and 100% soulless PR people in Australia would love a crack at it. It would be like saying that 'Captain Fred's good at (insert secondary pilot duties), but he's really crap at flying.' Does this mean Fred is a good pilot?

Why stick with such bad PR when by the look of the links above it's even becoming a joke in the real world (not just from us crusties on here)?
Is it part of a really weird plan to make Qantas look as terrible as possible? That's exactly what's happening. :confused:

I reckon V Jet's four options sound spot on.

EDIT: Beat me to it Spanner. We even came up with the same pilot, poor Fred. :suspect:

[Captain Dart]

Will someone tell her that the name of her employer isn't 'qannas'?

[600ft-lb]

I don't feel sorry for her, or anyone else who is 1. wilfully incompetent and 2. happy to spruik management BS about Qantas being a great employer (sorry, employee http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif) when it's blatantly obvious to the outside world that Qantas operational staff are treated like crap. The audacity is absolutely astounding, and even if it's evil AJ coming up with this stuff, she's saying it.
You're saying that like she has a choice in the matter. Her job is to do that, the second she doesn't she's in breach of her employment contract no doubt and would more then likely be sacked.

It's the directors and executives putting her out there to cop all of the flack, none of this would be possible without complete complicity of them. That's where the criticism should be directed.

[Captain Gidday]

How nice it is, on a day when it seems the whole financial system is turning to crud, to touch base with PPRune and realise that the truly important things in life, such as OW's hair, are still to the fore in people's minds and thoughts. Quite stabilising, really.
Personally, I am quite fond of her and her employer/ee* turns of phrase. Probably AIPAs best strike weapon, at the moment.
[Not using the word strike in its industrial meaning].

* I always have trouble remembering whether I am the lessor or the lessee. Perhaps we had the same teacher somewhere in the education system?

[maggot]

You're saying that like she has a choice in the matter. Her job is to do that, the second she doesn't she's in breach of her employment contract no doubt and would more then likely be sacked.

It's the directors and executives putting her out there to cop all of the flack, none of this would be possible without complete complicity of them. That's where the criticism should be directed.

well said. plus, it makes us look like morans by harping on about her. She is but a blip on the radar

[watch your6]

She is obviously good at something.
Sharpening pencils perhaps?

[Sunfish]

Captain Gidday:

How nice it is, on a day when it seems the whole financial system is turning to crud, to touch base with PPRuNe and realise that the truly important things in life, such as OW's hair, are still to the fore in people's minds and thoughts. Quite stabilising, really.

Oh good! Another one to play with..........


You obviously haven't learnt much about human nature Captain Gidday. Let me tell you why Olivia fails, and fails badly, on at least three levels. Please note, this is nothing personal about Olivia, I'm sure she is a lovely person when one gets to know her, likes dogs and kittens, etc.:

1. Perceptions are Reality When Livvy stands in front of the camera she is Qantas. Ninety percent of communication is non verbal. It takes the form of appearance, manner, gesture, dress, eye movements, accent, intonation and so on.

She doesn't appear to understand that and neither does her employer. She has no telegenic authority. She could however be trained to do that.

2. She does not have mastery of either her topic or its delivery. There are Qantas cabin crew who could do a better job.

3. Olivia does not meet the same dress and deportment standards that Cabin Crew are required to meet. That is both a slap in the face for every CC employee, but it is at variance with the perception that Qantas would obviously wish to project to the general public - cool calm, masterly and professional.


To put that another way what would I think of Qantas if I saw Captain Gidday passing through Customs outbound - dirty shoes, fly undone, shirt tail hanging out, food stained jacket, bad haircut, tie askew and loudly telling an off colour joke to similarly dishevelled FO?

Olivia may be very good at schmoozing politicians and journalists, however as a TV personality/spokesperson, she is a disaster, and don't try and tell me it is a generation X thing. I fail to understand why Qantas appointed her to this role when there were obviously much better qualified candidates with real Government experience who could have done the job standing on their ear- for example I happen to know that the chap below was just itching for the job. He would have been the perfect embodiment of Qantas today:







http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2011/04/27/1226045/626439-sir-les-patterson.jpg

[Cactusjack]

........but has she got nice tits??

[bandit2]

One thing Olivia has got going for her is that she`s better than AJ. Now there`s an incompetent fool when in front on a TV camera. At least GD had the balls to show his face during the LAME strike in 08`. Where was AJ the other day?

[Cactusjack]

GD has nice tits !!