AUGUST 24th - QANTAS

[Prong Wallop]

It is inconceivable.
Once again Australian management have emulated the very low quality of strategic decision making as is demonstrated by the politicians.
Australia, with its incredible windfall from natural resources could be the envy of the rest of the world with first class medical, educational, research and in this case transport institutions.
Instead what do we have? Unsustainable theoretical economic models espoused by the Monash tea party set which has destroyed excellent organisations built up for years then sold to private enterprise whose sole purpose is to sweat the asset and bleed it dry. Wool, gold, agriculture and innovation built this country with vision such as the snowy scheme, now we have rank opportunists only interested in the short term and their own futures.
We could have the best boutique airline in the world, serving destinations that are frequented by Australians for reasons of business and leisure and exporting expertise and skills that were once the standard for the rest of the world.
Soon we will have nothing, just another Australian tragedy.

[KRUSTY 34]

Interesting interview with Sen Nick on the ABC. He doesn't believe for a minute the BS that Joyce is peddling. He says that a serious review of the QANTAS sale act is in order. Something that should aready have happened. Better late than never I suppose.

The problem with Joyce, Buchanan, and others of their ilk, is that if they get away with something once, then in their morally deficient minds, it now becomes acceptable! I mean good God Almighty, millions of dollars in fines, and jail time for some o'seas scapegoats for Cargo price fixing, and they still publicly claim the moral high ground.

For Chr!st sake Canberra show some ticker' before we're all sunk!

[Wally Mk2]

"PW"good post, couldn't agree with you more there.

Remember everybody that Australia is only a couple of hundreds years old roughly (Caucasian occupation) we've learnt little other than to wreck everything so it's going to take a LOT more generations to realize that what we have here (resources wise) could make this a great country.

In the words of Michael Douglas(Wall St film) why wreck Bluestar Airlines(insert QF)?............'cause it's wreckable' !!!!
Perhaps CASA closed the wrong Airline down recently 'cause if stupidity was a sin & answerable to CASA then QF would never fly again !!


Good luck to the real QF, the employees:ok:

Wmk2

[ohallen]

These tossers are trying to fool everyone including themselves.

They lie and deceive and then expect everyone to just get on with life.

Is there another announcement on 24 August or was this it...another lie.

Since when does a successful business grow by shutting down routes and planning expansion in one of the most saturated and competitive markets in the world where most have access to huge amounts of capital??

These guys need to be shown the door and do it quickly while there is something left.

[hotnhigh]

I'm just glad another hard hitting aviation expert, Peter Harbison, made commentary on cnbc.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[mach2male]

With the large number of A320s being ordered that can only mean an increase in regional flying.Qantas it appears will concentrate on north south destinations within 3 to 11 hours flight time from Australia.Longhaul destinations will be LHR,FRA DFW LAX JNB ~LHR and FRA will be crewed by LHR based CC.
No mention of HNL ,SFO or 787s.
Qantas will have a "clayton's network" unsuitable for the J/C ~P/C traveller

[Popgun]

1000 jobs to go sadly...

Anyone hear any numbers yet of how many pilots likely to go? And whether it will be strictly in reverse order of seniority?

PG

[KABOY]

Poll: Do you support plans by Qantas to step up operations in Asia as part of a revamp that will affect some 1000 jobs?
Poll closes in 11 hours.


Read more: Qantas cuts | 'New Qantas' to slash about 1000 jobs (http://www.theage.com.au/business/new-qantas-to-slash-about-1000-jobs-20110816-1ivcn.html#ixzz1V9ubMJLg)

[mates rates]

Can you imagine what obstacles and hurdles the JCAB are going to pose to this "brilliant" commercial decision (Jetstar Japan)of the Qantas management? They have no idea what they are getting into there.Have they consulted their own Flight Dept. and what was the answer?

[UPPERLOBE]

RIP Qantas.

You were killed by the KPI bonus, inept government protection, a union hating management and a right wing media.

The people in the media turn a blind eye to the spin from Qantas and completely miss the point when AJ waffles on about the proud safety record of the last 90 years when all the while he and his predecessor have very effectively destroyed the very foundations of that safety culture.

Does the slow demise of Qantas Engineering not ring a bell anywhere?

And another thing how rotten is the Federal Government? this current lot sit there fat dumb and stupid and the one before them matey mated and allowed big business convert what should be Australian tax dollars into foreign profits, which basically is all this offshoring exercise is about to my tiny mind.

[cart_elevator]

Just announced

The London based cabin crew will do all SIN-LHR flights as well as SIN-FRA.

Gone are the days of having an Australian crew on 'The Spirit of Australia' to Europe. What a sad state of affairs. :{

[opalops]

SAD VERY VERY SAD!!:{

[packrat]

If management think that the workforce is disengaged now just wait until this mess is implemented
90 years to build it...ten years to destroy it.
The emotional attachement Australians once had for Qantas will be totally destoyed.Board an aircraft in LHR and be greeted by Natasha from Poland who has never even been to Australia

[denabol]

There was a Roger somebody on ABC News 24 a while ago as an investment consultant who made a major factual error at the rate of about one every 10 seconds.

I'm going to try and find out his name in case his firm is advising me Mum and Dad about their self funded pensions, and if he is, get the fool fired.

[1me]

All I can say SP is I hope the exec have something big in store..

[Budfox]

Does anybody know roughly how much these A320's are going to cost??
If 110 are being ordered where they heck is the money going to come from let alone how is Jetstar going to be paying for this??
That is a heck of a lot of $$$$$ even at a rough guess what they are worth :hmm:
Need to break out that mis functioning calculator again to get my head around this biggy :suspect:

[Capt_SNAFU]

Delaying the 380's will pay for the 320s. Real building the business is delaying the arrival of the passengers jet of choice.

[Artificial Horizon]

Of the 110 A320's ordered, 78 will be the new A320 NEO, 99 allocated to Jetstar with 24 destined for the new Jetstar Japan venture. That leaves a balance of 11 new A320's, where are they off to??

[hotnhigh]

Exactly Packrat. And do you think Natasha knows if the pies have a chance to win this years grand final. Or if the aussie cricket team had a win this week in sri lanka? Joyce, Buchanan and clifford don't understand the fundamental basics of what makes qantas special.
Instead they have ring barked it to where it is now. The only hope is for an upper level management that believes and respects qantas and its loyal hard working employees. Sadly this requires a few home truths about this new corporate strategy to the major shareholders and also the truth that the good ship qantas has been hit by a joyce berg and needs radically amount of work to right in and also provide some hope that the remainder of the shareholder capital is going to be used successfully as opposed to pissing it up against the wall in some macau casino joint venture airline thing.
Amazing that joyce promises all these golden asian gooses with australian capital in minority shareholdings.
Nah something really stinks around here.

[Traffic]

Mates Rates

Spot on. Jetstar Japan majority owned by JAL/Mitsubishi. For bankrupt JAL this is a chance to soak up the hundreds of pilots they have fired or who are currently pushing paperclips around an empty office. For Mitsubishi this is a finance deal on leasing a/c. So we have three shareholders all with different agendas. That should work nicely.

And the JCAB..well where does one start.

Joyce's strategy...employ an ex Ansett/Skynet/Skymark pilot, arm him with some A320 manuals and tell him to get it all sorted.

Delusional.

[Level-Headed]

I think this is getting to the point where if drastic action is not taken Qantas will cease to exist as it was originally conceived. This people want to wipe 90 years of great history and still call it QANTAS the "Spirit Of Australia". When I joined this company I never believed a short time later we would be in this position. We have to change the aim of our industrial campaign from asking for "Job Security" (that is clearly not gonna happen if we let them get away with this) to one which aims to remove those at the top. This is the only way we can stop this madness."The emperor is naked has any one else noticed?" An more importantly how many have the guts to say anything? I know I have and I'm ready for battle...Bring it on.....:D

[hadagutfull]

Aj on 2UE AT 3.30... if u can stomach it..

[ernestkgann]

Wasn't QF originally conceived as a regional Queensland airline? Still, management really do seem to have forgotten how the company became a solid brand. How many guys are keen to go flying 320's from a KUL base?

[peuce]

Well, all I can say is that you guys (employees) have been well and truly bush whacked... and by an Irishman.

I was wondering why QF kept mentioning 24th August so much ....

They knew you'd set up protest rallies to coincide.... so, they got in early before you had time to stick your heads up.

Your mister nice guys campaign has got you where?

If you really had wanted to make a difference, you should have put your shoulders into it.

Unfortunately, nice guys always come last .... no matter how nice you feel.

[strim]

Tonight on #thedrum on abcnews24 @Peter_Reith @frankellyabc and @PeterLewisEMC + Nick Xenophon on Qantas restructure 6pm AET repeat at 10.

[MrClaus]

Wow. The second major Australian airline in a decade to be destroyed by inept management. Peuce is right. The gloves are off now and honestly it looks like you have nothing to lose. Maybe its time to take your fight to the next level or you may find yourself working for whatever monstrosity they create in Asia. You can be sure they will be aiming for the lowest cost operation possible and safety will inevitably suffer.:(

[waren9]

Very sad indeed.

If I was on the seniority list below what is required for a domestic operation, I'd be having an exit stategy sharpish.

:sad:

[Alien Role]

As a former Ansett employee , and now within the Qantas Group, I have a deep feeling of dread in my gut !!

Role on.....

[teresa green]

My apologies Tidbinbilla, I guess at my age I have seen to much of Australian Airlines destroyed by incompetence. I did not think I would see anymore. I was wrong. My apologies once more.

[donpizmeov]

Qantas Switches Focus to Asia With New Units - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-16/qantas-forms-asia-unit-japan-budget-venture-to-end-international-losses.html)

More of the same. LHR only to be done via SIN on 380. Slots leased to BA to cover services via BKK and HKG. Good news for BA I guess.
A sad day fellas.

[Oakape]

It would appear that EK timed their roadshows a little too early.

[Potsie Weber]

Code-share out of HKG or BKK to LHR will only result in less choice and availability for customers. Whether it be a freesale or block space code-share arrangement, customers will have to compete with BA customers for the limited availability of seats on a route where load factors have always been very high.

With restricted options, customers will simply go elsewhere for more choice. This move has the greatest potential to accelerate the ultimate demise of Qantas International by further driving passengers away and that is before we even get into customer service dissatisfaction by "swapping" carriers mid way through an international journey.

Code-share best works to extend a network beyond what is feasibly or legally permitted. e.g. code-share on domestic carriers in the US which provides significant feed to trans pacific ops.

It is a very sad day indeed, to see the historic flagship QF1 kangaroo route now only to be operated by Qantas to Bangkok.

[SLFAussie]

I got this drivel in my inbox today:

As one of our most valued customers, I want to share with you our commitment to building a stronger Qantas. A Qantas that will be better for you.
Since 1920, Qantas has represented the best of what air travel can be. A pioneer that introduced flying to a young nation, carried generations of Australians to meet the world, and became one of the world's great airlines.
Now the times have changed again and Qantas is changing with them.
The new Qantas will take on our global competitors with a spirit that will make Australians proud. An airline that builds on our unrivalled safety record and over 90 years of experience. That offers Australians more choices through new gateways to more destinations around the world. A state-of-the-art fleet with the best comfort, service and entertainment in the sky. An airline that will be strong, dependable and profitable now and into the future.
Of course, as we build a stronger Qantas, some things will never change.
We will always be owned by Australians. We will always be proud that the vast majority of our operations are based in Australia.
We will always call Australia home.
For further information visit our dedicated microsite at qantas.com/anewspirit. You can also keep up to date on other Qantas business issues at qantasanswers.com.
With warm wishes,
Alan Joyce
CEO Qantas Airways

I followed the links back to the website to try to give some (negative) customer feedback. Couldn't find an email link. Gave up. I don't think that they want my feedback as a valued customer.

Looks like the return leg of my current QF international flight will be my last. QF international won't be flying where I want to go.

[Angle of Attack]

Plane talking

How not to grow Qantas?
August 16, 2011 – 4:30 pm, by Ben Sandilands

Perhaps the most amazing thing about today’s phase one of the Qantas restructuring is that it actually makes it harder to fly the airline all the way to London.

If you are a Qantas passenger who stops off for some reason in Bangkok or Hong Kong, you can’t continue your journey non-stop to London on a Qantas flight, as it wants to sell you a seat on a British Airways flight, an experience that you are unlikely to willingly undertake voluntarily a second time, on a carrier that makes Qantas look stellar in every department.

British Airways is even further removed from the shiny new jets and amenable cabins of Emirates, Etihad, Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines, than is Qantas, all of whom will do what Qantas is now going to be less capable of doing, which is to get you to London on the same airline with only one stop.

It is a truly bizarre and perverse way of making Qantas international better for London flyers.

Qantas is giving away its very capacity to fly people to London. Singapore Airlines flies, make that flew, fewer Australians to London than Qantas, but it does do it in an A380 three times a day, not twice daily, which is the Qantas plan. And it does A380s daily to Paris and Zurich too.

Turning to America, Qantas sacrificed San Francisco dailies for four times weekly flights to Dallas Fort Worth earlier this year so that, it claimed, passengers could make better connections using its American Airlines partner.

Which is bollocks. Not only is the supposedly business friendly flight less than daily, but it can’t reliably get a full load of passengers and their checked luggage on the same plane to DFW. Nothing like living in a dirty shirt and set of jox and sox for a day at either end of a long trip because Qantas has an alliance fetish.

The connections are pathetic considering that the jet has to stop in Brisbane on the way back to have any chance of getting to Sydney, and occasionally also has to detour to Noumea, or Nadi, or Auckland.

It is also amazing that Qantas CEO should insist that it has to ‘change in order to survive’ when the under performance of a management team that actually harms the customer experience is the very first thing that needs changing.

The presentation and speech Joyce filed to the ASX today is full of such disconnections. At current exchange rates Qantas is according to Joyce suffering a 20% cost disadvantage compared to its smarter, better funded, less taxed and more customer oriented competitors. But Lufthansa, Air France KLM and even British Airways have higher cost disadvantages compared to their Asian and Middle East competitors, and they continue to successfully operate between Europe and Asian ports. Especially in the case of British Airways, which gets a no-compete deal from Qantas between the UK and Bangkok and Hong Kong in return for giving up daily return flights between Bangkok and Sydney.

There are plausible suggestions in the market that Qantas will drop its A330 flights between Auckland and Los Angeles and Los Angeles and New York in favor of an American Airlines return to the Pacific routes for the first time in its own metal since the mid 90s. And this is an airline which is a financial basket case. If true, such a further transfer of the action from Qantas to a foreign airline doesn’t compute.

The rhetoric in the Qantas presentation is almost tragic in its references to its frequent flying program, because if a recent analysis by Macquarie Bank is correct, that program is making 57% of it earnings from selling points to grocery chains or other third parties to ‘reward’ people who, on the current statistics, are likely to buy fares on foreign carriers rather than Qantas in the ratio of four to one.

While no-one could reasonably argue against Qantas investing in entirely Asian operations to participate in the Asian air transport market rather than try to use them to rotate low cost pilots and cabin crew through Australian skies, the concept of competing against the established premium brands of Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines or All Nippon or whomever with its own fleet of single aisle A320s is questionable, or comical.

The as yet unnamed and unlocated new Qantas joint ventured Asian premium carrier would be up against the wide body twin aisle luxury of those carriers, which have the brands and distribution networks and connections to defend their home turf.

Somehow Qantas has to do better. Even the proposition that it can’t afford to match the cheap fares of its Asia based competitors looks shaky when it is often the case that those carriers are selling at a premium over Qantas to business travellers because they offer trips to European cities that are half a day faster than the purgatory of flying over them to make connections to a woeful British Airways product in order to then fly backwards to the intended city.

Joyce is right about one thing, Qantas is in peril. But it is in peril from itself.


Pretty much sums it up, plus how much money was wasted on these pathetic Newspaper ads this morning?

[22k]

Can I just ask what Im missing here?

When i look at the loads to London, there is no spare capacity, came coming home....

Same thing with Frankfurt.....

My question is, how are we not competing? How is a REDUCTION in capacity on those routes going to save the company money?

Im not very smart but i reckon that im right enough to assume that cutting packed services will cost more money.

Im confused. :bored:

[Jethro Gibbs]

As a former Ansett employee

You will be aware of the saying Grab Your Tools The Place is F#$ked

[ampclamp]

Also an ex AN worker. I don't think I can take another hit like that. The spiral of financial, health and associated problems.
You work your guts out for the greater good and get sold out.
Again.
If I go I'm gone for good. I hate what these people are doing to the industry. They stand for nothing.
I commend Sen Xenophon for his stand. he is the only one with any balls or integrity. Albanese rolled over for a belly scratch. Pathetic.

[my oleo is extended]

It is also amazing that Qantas CEO should insist that it has to ‘change in order to survive’ when the under performance of a management team that actually harms the customer experience is the very first thing that needs changing. Here Here !!! Time to change management. Their 'vision', abilities and direction are a complete embarressment. The place is being run by inept tools, defense staff, accountants, miners and other assorted incapable individuals.
Jethro
Grab Your Tools The Place is F#$ked Its ground hog day !!
I commend Sen Xenophon for his stand. he is the only one with any balls or integrity. Albanese rolled over for a belly scratch. Pathetic. Let me add this. Senator Xenaphon may well be the last remaining Australian politician who is actually Australian at heart. He seems to understand that a part of Australian heritage is being torn asunder at a rapid rate of knots. Xenaphon can stand proud that he has got a pair of firmly displayed balls, unlike the other trash elected and paid for by us !
As for Albanese, well the very sight of that pudgy bloated taxpayer priveledged ninny makes me sick to the pit of my stomach, along with his labor colleagues (labor is a priveledged title that they no longer earn the right to bear),and as for the spineless Liberal softc*ck Howardites hiding in the shadows they also are not prepared to utter a word in defense of our dying icon. It is a national, and international disgrace.

It is time for an uprising agianst this unaustralian act of destruction. Anybody who is anybody needs to make their voice heard, whether by fax, email, protest, march, telephone, email or 'camping out' in front of these pathetic humans places of residence or places of work, this is urgently required. The entire Australian community needs to boycott this disgraceful action, and fight it now. We need hundreds of thousands to fight this one. A bunch of gutless politicians and spineless airline managers are no match for these clowns, but it takes strengths in numbers. Hit em where it hurts, hit em hard, make it personal...

Last chance folks, this plane trip started at Port Cuckoo Land and it's destination is Port History. Is Australia really prepared to let this happen ??

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Great way to return to work after assigned leave, what a **** Joyce is!!! These young QF guys careers are now in disarray, and this pr!ck doesn't give two hoots. Not to mention anyone who had aspirations of joining this once great company. It will be a case of take what we offer you on these pathetic T&Cs for Jetstar or BrandX in asia or enjoy returning/remaining in GA. Not to mention the LAMEs and other loyal staff about to be tossed in the bin of life. Brilliant business plan, how unaustralian.

Maybe we should have an unofficial "go sick for Alan" day by all Qantas staff to send a message that this decision will have large ramifications on families and loved ones.

[POT100]

22k, Its very simple.

AJ and co are running QF international operation down in favour of the 'Star!!..plain and simple..
My concern is that how do the shareholders and fund managers, not to mention the Australian people, buy into this drivel?

The Mismangement at the top of this company have absolutely no idea how to react to competition..

I guess that comes with having a monopoly for so many years!!!

.

[spannerjocky]

I wonder if the Qantas tail and big foot will disappear ?:suspect:

[my oleo is extended]

I wonder if the Qantas tail and big foot will disappear ?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cwm13.gif
In spirit it already has. Physically it has also disapeared up managements as#holes. Forget putting a giant star on the tails, put a giant 'starfish' on the tails cos that is where this whole saga ends !!

[UPPERLOBE]

To the media hacks (if any) who look here, when are you people going to grow some testicles and start asking the hard questions?

[ButFli]

I might have overheard today that all QF operations to Europe will be through SIN. Keeping HKG as a destination but the only through-connections to Europe from there will be codeshares on BA.


Just gonna quote myself here and point out that I broke this story 3 weeks ago on the 26th of July.

[V-Jet]

The disgusting 'new' logo could have only been approved by someone who has never seen a Kangaroo or has any appreciation of aesthetics. The club footed roo sums up management quite nicely. If you like that, you have no vision, no taste and no understanding of an Australian icon.

However;

I have spent some hours thinking about how to explain in laymans terms what these self aggrandising idiots have been up to. I think the following sentences may be good to mention for 10 second media grabs:

No one should forget that most Qantas staff have honoured the brand and worked in its best interest for DECADES. The people in charge generally have less than 5 years service. Generations of loyal Qantas employees have carefully hoarded a large collection of 'family' silver. The last ten years of management has seen this constantly raided to line the pockets of those at the top. If long term staff do not take a stand all the family silver will be gone and there will be nothing left - all for the benefit of a very few 'newcomers' at the top..

I doubt most managers have been in Qantas 5 years. 5 years _just_ entitles a pilot (dont know about engineers) to a business class upgrade _IF_ there is a vacant seat. It entitles AJ to $3m a year + bonuses + 'must ride' (ie offload commercial pax) free 1st class to themselves, family and friends etc etc etc.

[UPPERLOBE]

V-Jet these guy's can justify whatever they do.

[Angle of Attack]

Lol Upperlobe,

Don't you worry there is going to be industrial carnage very soon, after all the mainline QF brand is destined to be phased out so I am sure most are going to make them bleed during it!

[hotnhigh]

I wonder why????
Tourism Australia backs Qantas plan (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8286271/tourism-australia-backs-qantas-plan)
Tourism Australia - Our Board (http://www.tourism.australia.com/en-au/aboutus/our-board.aspx)

[peuce]

As someone asked ... but no one has answered ....

What happened to the 787s?

[hotnhigh]

Probably sell the 787 rights to the highest bidder to cover their cost of global expansion.

[Mstr Caution]

Tourism & Transport Forum (TTF) Supports the move as well !

Previous TTF General manager position held by........Olivia Worth.

[UPPERLOBE]

Just got an email from the ASX detailing the full doody...

Fair dinkum :yuk:

Apparently I'm going to be getting a dividend in the next 5 years. Also good to read how the staff are going to deliver a wonderful product and have me in raptures with my fantastic connections onto BA to Europe.

All this when I just found out that my 40 year LSL trip has been sucked back off me because I didn't use it within 5 years of retiring.

And Capt Cloudbuster you reckon you just had to laugh... :{

[gobbledock]

‘I am an Army of One’.

This story has been doing the rounds for eons, so I thought of a new twist that is appropriate in our day and age. Naturally, this is not aimed at any specific organisation or person, merely some thoughts and reasoning swirling through my mind……
This is the story of the story of the modern day CEO

‘I am an Army of One’
I am an army of One - A rogue from Cuckoo land, a miniature statue of a man in the business of wrecking airlines, I am a one man army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in a now defunct airline army. Now I fight my own war.
My staff used to feel valued and respected. Now they know they are mere fodder.
My workforce used to be enthused, loyal and proactive. Now they are downtrodden, mere numbers and liabilities, they are a hiccup upon the road to business success, a blight on profit and a skidmark on our asset sheet. They must be exploited through legal loopholes and to this end I dedicate my resources.
My staff used to give their maximum, enjoy a fair days pay for a fair days work, as well as enjoy union protection. Now they will suffer punishment at my hands for no greater reason than industrial greed.
I am an army of One.

I used to maintain sound business ethics, check myself against a moral compass, have empathy for those less fortunate. Now I obfuscate, lie and deceive, my sole purpose of living each day is based upon "greed greed greed". My urge to be wealthy at any cost, and my desire for this is insatiable, my love of self above the care of others is immeasurable. I used to pat kittens and make cups of tea for the elderly. Now, I will skin a cat to turn a dollar, and refuse to waste money on green tea for the elderly who add no tangible monetary value to life.
I used to try to honestly display facts, figures and business accuracy. Now I seek the most devious, unconscionable avenue to hide the truth, deceive the masses and persuade the gullible. Cash is my king, money is my god, and my wealth is my focus in life.
I used to lead by example, step up to the plate, act like a man. Now I hide behind bank statements, rely upon the latest electronic security systems to protect me at night, gutlessly hide my true sexuality. I am no longer strong but I am weak, I am no longer a leader I am a loser, I am no longer a man rather I am a mere shell of a true man.
I am an army of One.

I used to consider loyalty, skill, and an innovative and coherent workforce as being something of value and a good business foundation. Now I would rather slash and burn my workforce, thumb my nose at customer service, safety and reputation. I used to view on time performance as a service to the customer, now I view it as a method to receive a personal bonus. I used to find value in keeping share options high, now I will destroy my empire to make a quick sale and earn massive profits in the process. Once upon a time I used to lay the turd, now I simply attempt to polish it into something it is not.
I am an army of One.

I used to be an honest man, a man of integrity, a man with humble background, a man whose parents could be proud of. Now I would sell those same parents to make a quid, and I find honesty and integrity to be over rated and unprofitable. I used to make mistakes and admit to being imperfect. Now I cover up those same mistakes, apply a layer of lies and deceit to them and blame it on one of my soldiers who will take the fall willingly.
I used to take pride in my workforce, the colour of their uniform, the appearance of my aircraft and the strength of my brand. Now all I see is additional expenses, a spread sheet that needs to be trimmed, an avenue I must destroy to increase my overall wealth. I used to promote positive change, improvement in processes and expressions of view. Now I insist on my people being mushrooms, footstools and compliant servants.
I am an army of One.

I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that my misguided leadership, indifference and disrespect will make me rich beyond my boyhood dreams. I am the ferryman, and my workforce is going to pay.
When I make redundant more pilots than the rest, pilots that are overpaid and a burden to my bottom dollar - I make you pay.
When my under-resourced staff bases and soon to be over-worked DEC’s keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I am making you pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding, when you pay for a service with one coloured tail and get systematically assigned to her sister tail - I will make you pay.
When you force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again wearing a different uniform - I make you pay.
When an engine explodes I will apportion my pilot’s credit publicly for their ability to save the day, but privately I will be plotting to crush you and violate your overpaid existence - I will make you pay.
When I outwardly and publicly blame frontline workers for the mismanagement, incompetence, theatrics and spin of the executive team - I make you pay.

My management team and spin specialists speak for me, but I always act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the shareholders that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary …… has only a small amount of time left with this company, but I am going to go out with all guns blazing. I will cut, shred, retrench, and destroy the workforce. I will fumigate the halls that are filled with union support, I will make it my mission, to outwit, outlast and outsource every breathing element of the organisation. I am a one man money making machine and human wrecking ball hell bent on lining my wallet to excess, I will not tolerate resistance, and I will not be swayed from my reasoning. I will be victorious.
I am a one army, I am a CEO.

[teresa green]

Mr. Joyce, instead of doing a roo cull, how about look at TE. Going gangbusters without needing to go offshore, happy staff, happy airline, happy profits. The reason Mr. Joyce? A great CEO, who appreciates his staff, really knows his stuff, and it shows. Sadly QF has not enjoyed the same luxury. Mr. Joyce, you have underestimated the power of your staff, and I suspect are just about to find out, how much.

[somewhereat1l]

A message from Samantha Taranto - Building a Stronger Qantas

Today Alan Joyce announced the Qantas Group’s 5 year plan to transform our International business. I am writing to you to highlight the changes that will have an impact on our department.

Our aim is to be one of the world’s best premium airlines, setting global standards for long haul travel, while delivering attractive financial returns.
As I am sure you know, the economic sustainability of Qantas International is critical to the whole Qantas Group, however, it has suffered significant financial losses and a substantial decline in market share. These financial losses have occurred due to the significant deregulation of the Australian market, Australia’s geographical location, an influx of competition and a cost base that is higher than our competitors.

Qantas International lost around $200 million in Financial Year 10/11. If we stand still and do nothing about the problems we face with this part of our business, the ultimate outcome will be the closure of our division.
Our five year plan has the objective, first, of returning Qantas International to profitability in the short term. In five years, the Qantas flying businesses, both domestic and international combined, will exceed the cost of capital on a sustainable basis.

The plan

Opening gateways to the world.
From April 2012, we will expand our partnership with British Airways. This will see the consolidation of our Qantas flights to London through Singapore on our A380s. We will also partner with British Airways to fly onwards from Bangkok and Hong Kong to London. This is part of our strategy to reduce loss-making, asset intensive flying, while continuing to provide great connections to Europe.

For Australian based International Cabin Crew flying on either our A380 or B747 fleet from April next year the only Qantas flights operating to London will be on the A380 via Singapore. As a result Australian based cabin crew will no longer be slipping in London on a planned basis.

In addition to the changes, in April we also will commence operating the Singapore-Frankfurt-Singapore sector by both Cabin Crew UK (CCUK) and Australian based crew. This will be determined on a bid period basis dependant upon resources and will assist in improving the profitability of this route.

For our crew based in London employed by Cabin Crew UK (CCUK) this plan will see the destinations you fly change. You will now be flying to Singapore (twice daily A380 services) and also Frankfurt, which may fluctuate on a bid period basis dependant upon resources. Crew will no longer slip in Bangkok or Hong Kong as these services will now be operated by our code share partner British Airways.

In April our Sydney to Buenos Aires route will be replaced with Sydney Santiago. Santiago is a hub city for booming South America, as well as an important destination for Australian business.

As a result of these flying reductions, we require 240 fewer International Cabin Crew than we currently have. Due to the voluntary redundancy package offered earlier this year, where 337 crew submitted a final expression of interest, we are not currently in a position where any crew member will lose their employment as a result of these changes.

Some of the other group strategies that do not directly impact you include:

Growing with Asia.
The opening of a new premium branded airline based in Asia and also creating a Jetstar Japan Franchise.

Being best for global travellers.
We’re spending nearly $400 million on benefits for our Qantas International customers including new lounges, A380 standard product and improving our loyalty proposition.

Building a strong, viable business.
This includes ordering 110 A320s, deferring six A380s to Financial year 2019 (this will reduce the capital invested), nine reconfiguring B744s and retiring four B744s.

As you can see there are many changes needed to transform our international division and many of you will be unaffected by these. However, some of you may be affected. What I can confirm is that while we are seeing reductions on our London services, we still have considerable destinations in order for you to build your roster.

I know many of you bid for trips to London and Frankfurt in order to visit family and friends. The changes to London and Frankfurt flying are eight months away and this will give you time to consider how these changes are going to affect your access to friends and family in the UK. For the next six months we will open opportunities for all Australian based crew to take Special Leave without pay and join our London base on a two year secondment.
We have two A380s arriving later this year and will open opportunities for all International Cabin Crew to transfer to the A380 in both our Melbourne and Sydney bases on the original transfer terms outlined in EBA8.

We closed the Final Expressions of Interest for Voluntary Redundancy earlier this month and while we do not require any more crew to leave our department, I understand that some people’s decision not to submit an Expression of Interest may have changed as a result of these announcements. For this reason, from tomorrow until 1 September 2011, we will open the opportunity for crew to submit a Final EOI to take redundancy.
I fully support this strategic direction. It will absolutely transform our business. These changes will help us become a sustainable, profitable business, which in turn provides job security.

If you would like to understand the finer details of our plan, your management team will be holding information sessions in all of our International crew bases as well as Los Angeles, Hong Kong, Bangkok and Singapore. Please try and attend one of these sessions or contact anyone in the management team with your questions.

The strategic changes that we’re embarking on are just the beginning of a lengthy process that will see us as a profitable division of the Qantas Group.
Cabin Crew have always been critical to the success of Qantas with the automation of our booking processes and airport experience, this is even more the case. As a group, you are resilient, flexible and have tremendous pride in working for Qantas.

As we move through our plan, I really need your support. You are the key to customer loyalty and without loyal customers our plan will not succeed. While some of you may have only worked with us for a short time we have some crew who have dedicated 46 years to our department. During these years there have been significant changes from fleet types to destinations and not to mention product innovation.

I have worked in the Cabin Crew Department for seven years and during this time I have seen that through business change you always put your own concerns aside and care for our customers first. I have complete confidence that you will continue to do this, as we embark on our plan to transform our business.

I hope you can join me for a dedicated crew voice call at 3pm AEST today, or a special London call tomorrow at 1500 London time. An email will follow with the call and upline information session details.

Kind regards

Samantha Taranto
Executive Manager Cabin Crew

[7378FE]

It's not Aug 24 yet, round two is yet to come. :E

QF domestic is also in for a bit of a revamp.

Cityflyer routes to have expanded frequencies during peak business travel times, JQ to take over less profitable frequencies, after 20:00 and saturday afternoons from 14:00 and sunday mornings before 12:00.

JQ also get non Cityflyer jet routes fulltime (except WA) and operate into Canberra for the first time to HBA,OOL & TSV.

AYQ will remain the only non Cityflyer route ops by QF for the time being.

Redunancies as announced, you were lucky to get away with 1,000, the initial figure was around 3,500.

[Fliegenmong]

"during this time I have seen that through business change you always put your own concerns aside"

Is she after OW's job.....seriously:hmm:

[StallBoy]

As someone asked ... but no one has answered ....

What happened to the 787s?

787s won't save QANTAS more like one of the main problems :(.
Qantas has finally succumbed to the 80's policy of focussing on your CORE business and making your business more efficient by reducing staff and services.
A lot of Australian companies failed under this flawed policy imported from the Harvard business school. The rest of the world just looked on as Australia committed suicide with this stupidity and now we are going to TAX carbon dioxide to save the planet :{.
Definitely nothing wrong with Australia just ask our competitors :mad:.

[amos2]

Notwithstanding my support for the Qantas pilots and the Qantas Lame's ,let's not forget that Qantas domestic has a whole swag of s*ab pilots who having s*abbed once would have no hesitation in s*abbing again if an A380 command was on offer!

I would also suggest that the Lame's might face a similar situation!

I would tread very circumspectly if I were you!

But, you know, having come through the hard times like Teresa Green and others, what would we know?

I mean, you blokes are so much smarter than we were, aren't you?!

[Sunfish]

Sammy Taranto:

Some of the other group strategies that do not directly impact you include:

translation: Go and die somewhere. You are not part of our future.

[qlhccforum]

It's not Aug 24 yet, round two is yet to come.

No, this is it, it was brought forward to today.
Aug 24 is now just the profit announcement.

[Higs]

Oh boy he we go again... another thread drift 89......

[SOPS]

So if I count correctly, Qantas now has 8 international routes left.:{ How long will it take to get rid of them as well, and just give the whole lot to pornstar?

I fear the end is very very close:yuk:

[Sunfish]

No link, saw and heard a minute ago on ABC1 interview with Alan Joyce. Joyce specifically said : he is going to set up airline in Asia to capitalise on Asian markets. he is going to use Qantas expertise as his competitive advantage, and he will repatriate the profits from this to Australian shareholders.

I can state categorically that this is shear lunacy.

Qantas has no "expertise" that translates to competitive advantage in Asia.

Qantas will not be allowed by Asian Governments to repatriate profits to Australia for the benefit of Australian shareholders.

This is terminal stupidity.

[woollcott]

So let me get this straight - if I want to fly MEL-LHR, I either have to go via Sydney, or change planes and carriers in BKK.

Seriously, what moron thought of this?

The few people who were prepared to fly Qantas in Melbourne will now be thinking twice......you have just alienated the population of Australias second biggest city

It is truly staggering the way these poeple think

[Fuel-Off]

Dear Alan...
Corporate social responsibility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_social_responsibility)

Your's sincerely,
Fuel-Off :ok:

...I feel an Irish bowel movement coming... :yuk:

[OhForSure]

Just heard it will be 180 pilots to go. Very, very sad news. Will most be from voluntary redundancy?

[skybed]

in the last 6 month i must say QF really wants to downgrade all their products. this surely is the a step in the wrong direction. another excuse to fly anyone else but QF:ugh:

[SOPS]

where did you hear that, OhForSure??

[ohallen]

Agree completely. The various govt's will allow capital to come in , but the minute you want to take profits out watch the consequences. Even this lot seem to have forgotten their own lessons in Vietnam.

Maybe AJ or BB should set up an office there and experience what some of their own underlings did recently. Bangkok Hilton will look appealing.

Complete idiots who think they are the smartest guys in the room.

This will end in tears for everyone but them.

[cficare]

gotta agree Sf..

The big red kangaroo is about to become a stir fry...!

There will be no winners on Oz soil,,

A few of the asian airlines would be grinning...

[headwires]

Pilots Lament.... The roots of aviation, its proud history, the striving for perfection daily, the pride in your airline and your flying decisions and your work etos and culture of safety, destroyed with the stroke of a pen and an ideological idiom founded in a psychotic, delusional grandiose and pompous thought from an immigrant to your country, who has no respect for all you have worked so hard to achieve. Makes me sick to the core. I beg you all to stand up for your heritage and your rights as citizens working in a defunct corporate climate that apparently does not respect where you have come from yet more importantly HOW you got there. The Qantas I know as a world leader in aviation is being imploded by an irrational series of decisions that will make your airline as we know it today Extinct. Yours is a country that has a heritage worth fighting for. To paraphrase a fellow countryman of mine.. you CAN knock the bastard off. Good luck all.

[VofReason]

I thought you were all well educated?.... This is globalisation at its very heart, If people gave two flying F$%ks about your last 90 years of history, if they really cared about the safety record of an airline then they wouldn't fly American, Singapore, China, Air France etc all of which have had several fatal accidents. People die of heart attacks every day yet we all still chow down on Mac Ds and indulge in excessive alcohol. If you want a good domestic airline Virgin is it... If you want a great global airline Qantas is on the right track. AJ gets paid the big bucks because he has the balls to go against the grain and do what is right...

Vof R

[denabol]

Stallboy,

Sandilands has done a piece on the 787, no 777, total idiocy of th situation on his blog but its buried between about six or seven posts including all 61 questions asked by the engineers and a very savage look at how screwed up the Qantas gateway alliance thing will root the passengers and see it give away half of its Heathrow capacity. There is some good thoughtful stuff on his blog today.

For starters:

Boeing a Qantas restructuring casualty | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/16/boeing-also-a-casualty-of-qantas-restructuring/)

Qantas changes put it in peril, from itself! | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/16/how-not-to-grow-qantas/)

[The_Equaliser]

What part of the announced changes will stop the drift of pax to SQ, EK, CX, Etihad, Gulf Air and the other premium airlines? Is transfering pax to BA and Malaysian going to achieve anything positive?

[PLovett]

A possible scenario after watching the 7:30 Report interview and reading this (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/16/govt-and-pilot-union-fire-different-shots-across-bow-of-qantas-dashing-for-the-asian-and-alliance-exits/):

QANTAS will basically become a shell that complies with the QANTAS Sale Act (51% Australian owned and based in Australia) but its aircraft will be crewed from overseas (pilots perhaps on Australian licences but employed under Asian T&Cs'). The number of actual QANTAS aircraft will be quite few and only on high value routes.
The other companies in the jet stable (lets leave out QLink for the present) will be basically overseas based, overseas T&Cs', overseas based crews.

An abject lesson on how to destroy an icon for the benefit of the shareholders.

Please note that this is only a possible scenario put up for discussion.

[headwires]

V of Reason: I find your thoughts both shallow and pedantic. This is a forum for mens men. Go to the wannabees and play your game there.

[VofReason]

Hey Head I think your wires are crossed...

I understand your frustration in realising that your not quite as smart as mum told you. Get with the play boy... AJ is doing what is right long term for Qantas.

VofR

[gobbledock]

The silence on Qrewroom from the most vocal antagonists now is deafening... Perhaps Ken Borough realises he too is vulnerable to the cost cutting antics of the Leprechaun ?

Tourism & Transport Forum (TTF) Supports the move as well !
Previous TTF General manager position held by........Olivia Worth.
No conflict of interest or mates rates there?
Seriously folks, if 'business incest', nepotism or cronyism was a legal entity this mob would have their names plastered all over it. Maybe ASIC and Senator Nick can add that to their inquiry checklist ?

[schlong hauler]

The share price says it all. Opened with a rise of 3 cents and closed lower than the opening price at $1.52. Sold out with a small profit. I can't own stock in a company that's shafting me and everyone else.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Ever seen a share price in a company drop when job losses were announced? Well I never have.....until today.

[legacy LAME]

Well there it
We are going to fix QF ,the so called premium product by getting more new aircraft for jokester and keep the old girls for mainline. Genius.

All they are doing is using jetstar to undercut there own staff.
Rest assured these clowns will not stop till qantas staff are unable to operate then the whole lot will be contracted back to jetstar and its bonuses all around.

Time for some serious industrial action I say

[headwires]

Happens all the time, you ever traded shares?

[Keg]

Wasn't it just a few weeks ago that Olivia was talking how Qantas hadn't made a pilot redundant in 40 years and pilot talk of moving jobs overseas was just scaremongering?

[ohallen]

Come on ALAEA you have been reading too many of AJ's press releases.

One half of one cent doesnt really rate as a fall.

The fact that 22m shares have been bought by punters who have pissed away their money does though.

[max1]

This is globalisation at its very heart, If people gave two flying F$%ks about your last 90 years of history, if they really cared about the safety record of an airline then they wouldn't fly American, Singapore, China, Air France etc all of which have had several fatal accidents.

Ian O ,
You numpty, people are still flying Qantas and writing Rainman because of the last 90 years. The idiot CEO and Leigh Clifford believe that the '90 years' can be selfishly leveraged for personal profit.
So sad.

[The The]

Just heard it will be 180 pilots to go. Very, very sad news. Will most be from voluntary redundancy?

That would be perhaps an immediate figure. QF are currently about 120 pilots surplus with a rapidly exhausting leave balance. With the latest cutbacks, the number will likely reach 500 pilots surplus over the next 2yrs.

But remember, this is not about offshoring jobs overseas, they are creating "new" jobs only overseas! Yeah right!

[Keg]

I should add that one of the blokes on Qrewroom did the sums and the A320 order would buy 30+ 777s. :rolleyes::ugh::mad:

[gobbledock]

Ever seen a share price in a company drop when job losses were announced? Well I never have.....until today.
That is because the top layer of the 'toffee coated turd' has been licked off and the investors have tasted what is truly underneath.
Game over AJ, your days are numbered. You could cull another 10 000 employees and your share price will be headed south. The market, in fact most of Australia, can see beneath the veneer and there is no place left to hide. The ruse is exposed, the decpetion, spin and general BS is out in the open for all to see. I only hope the share price keeps heading south as that way you will be gone by years end. Go and take your Irish mentality back to a bankrupt Ireland before you bankrupt QF. Take BB with you and don't slam the door on the way out.

[73to91]

Qantas has no "expertise" that translates to competitive advantage in Asia. and the expertise that already exists in 2 Asian carriers just got together to announce this.

Transport Minister ACM Sukampol Suwannathat has announced he will support a Thai Airways International plan to start a no frills carrier in partnership with Singapore's Tiger Airways.


The new transport minister has also expressed his support for another proposal for Thai Airways to launch a wholly owned sister airline tentatively called Thai Wings, which would operate domestic and regional routes.


Transport Minister ACM Sukampol said he would have to look into details of both plans first but he did not expect there to be an issue if they were supported by sound business principles.


The Minister said "any legal obstacles could later be removed", referring to the Civil Aviation Department's (CAD) recent refusal to approve Thai Airways request to establish Thai Tiger Airways as a joint venture with Tiger Airways of Singapore.


“Thai Wings would focus on the light-premium segment of the market”, said Thai Airways executive vice-president Chokchai Panyayong.


CAD director general Somchai Chanrod said if Thai Wings is launched as a business unit of Thai Airways it would not need to get approval from the CAD.

A Thai Airways spokesperson said Thai Wings would initially operate services on four domestic routes and five regional ones.Thai Airways low cost carrier going ahead - Airline News - etravelblackboard.com (http://www.etravelblackboard.com/article/122143/thai-airways-low-cost-carrier-going-ahead)


Someone tell him, he's dreaming.

[Coppabella]

At least Leigh Sales had a good go at the little germ.

[ohallen]

"An abject lesson on how to destroy an icon for the benefit of the shareholders"

Sorry disagree this has nothing to do with shareholder value but rather the Execs and a few vested interests, wait and see. It is merely dressed up as this because that is what the Corps Law requires.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Come on ALAEA you have been reading too many of AJ's press releases.

One half of one cent doesnt really rate as a fall.




High for the day was 1.605
Close 1.525

That's a fair drop. An announcement like this usually gives an injection to the stock.

[UPPERLOBE]

"An announcement like this usually gives an injection to the stock."

Yep, it sure did... but was it a lethal one?

[Cargo744]

Maybe SP was doing the sums with his left hand...

Unfortunately guys you have left your battle to your Union overlords who have done nothing but collect your fees and tell you "we are doing something". Left handed, 60 sec protests and unfulfilled promises of getting the public onside have all been complete failures. I am by no way pro QF management... very far from it but i am very anti the current Union ineptness. Guys... you pay the fees... expect action!

[OhForSure]

SOPS:

Heard it on Nine News not long ago... it was reported as being "just announced" information. 180 pilots to go. :sad:

[Ero-plano]

Bugger, after reading the title I actually though AJ had shot himself in the foot or somewhere north of the neck :{

[VofReason]

Grow up and smell the roses...

How many people (normal public who fly) do you really think know the history of Qantas and use that as an influence in their decision as to which airline to fly.... 1-2% perhaps, not as many as you would have people believe by any stretch. Like an Australian company.. if you want them to compete purely on a local scale then local conditions and local traditions apply.. To compete on a global scale requires equal costs and equal opportunities as per the rest of your competitors. Australia is already starting on the back foot being so isolated and given no protection as far as airspace rights go. To add in highly inflated wages in an age where technology has risen to meet the reduction in pilot skills is just another nail in their coffin.. If they continue as is!

Not saying its nice just factual

VofR

[gobbledock]

How will the PR spin machine led by the little fella and Wirthless counteract the swell of disgust being vented at the latest salvo of incompetence fired off by QF?
Time for the QF choir to start playing The Doors song 'The End'. An appropriate tune at this time. After all, AJ is Colonel Kurtz, living deep within a murky swamp where reality and reality cross a blurred line and fact and fiction send the mind into a tail spin..... Now please, somebody please napalm this little gimp and wake him up from his dream state.

[ohallen]

Agree ALAEA but still wait until tomorrow, I reckon it will TANK then we will see how much support they havefor their lunacy.

Its a bit like a hostile takeover, you have to have the numbers before you begin or it will fail and staff will kill this off thru determination.

Please someone show them the door and fast.

The fact that they believe their own deceptions shows the level of delusion in the "dream".

[lame1]

A CEO we know might be singing this real soon

Erasure - Little respect - YouTube

[Bootstrap1]

If Tiger ever turn a profit in Oz no doubt the cash would go back to Singapore, why is it different the other way around?

[Chocks Away]

Qantas International lost around $200 million in Financial Year 10/11.

From memory, a good 130 million+ was from FINES, mostly for Collusion and Price Fixing Freight! (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/451367-another-huge-fine-qf.html).
:rolleyes:

Base in KL? Kicked out of Singers obviously. Well MAS has a new life now with Air Asia and change of Management! Good luck there! :ugh:

[The Green Goblin]

If Tiger ever turn a profit in Oz no doubt the cash would go back to Singapore, why is it different the other way around?

They won't. The Australian government in cohoots with the local airline industry will make sure they need to keep pumping money in, and nothing will be going out. ANZ never got rich off Ansett did they!

Just like the favor is being repaid in their markets by our airlines.

Notice a pattern?

[Capt Fathom]

Sunfish.

You really do need to take a break and relax! You are going to burst a poofoo valve if you're not careful!

[reubee]

How does dropping 4 747, delaying 6 A380, ordering 100+ A320 equal 1000 jobs lost?

[reubee]

They won't. The Australian government in cohoots with the local airline industry will make sure they need to keep pumping money in, and nothing will be going out.

they're doing that already aren't they.

[DrPepz]

So it looks like his premium airline will be based in SIN or KUL.

I hope QF realises that the MH management that they worked with to sponsor them into OW is different from the MH management which they will be working with in the near future. With the MH-AK "tie-up", does QF know what they are getting into? Do they realise that in Malaysia, everyone needs a cut? If they were to start a premium airline in KUL, MH, AK, Malaysia Airports, and senior government officials would need to be "fed". This is how things work in Malaysia. They may look like Singaporeans, speak like Singaporeans and seem like Singaporeans, but it ain't no Singapore.

If QF decides to start it in SIN, would you rather fly SQ's 777 on regional routes, or QF's A320? SQ will just walk all over them. Despite the advent of LCCs, SQ still charges whatever it likes. I just booked SIN-MNL in YCL for S$845. 3 hour flight. They regularly charge SIN-CGK for S$560.1h20 min flying time. SIN-DPS for S$560 - 2 hour flying time. SIN-HKG flexible tickets regularly go in excess of S$650 - 3 hour flying time.

Why does SQ charge whatever it pleases ex SIN? Because who is the competition on SIN-MNL? Who is the competition on SIN-CGK? or SIN-PVG or SIN-PEK? They can rape the market and the business community would still pay for SQ.

Silk Air and SQ are still merrily chargin S$400 for SIN-KUL - the flights still go out full 8 times a day, and this is a route which is 184 miles or 30 min of flying time. You don't even get peanuts - Coffee Tea or Orange juice it is.

The problem with QF also, is that they kept harping on the new longhaul Jetstar routes that they wanted to start ex SIN. In the last 7 years, SQ's market share in Changi has fallen from 50% to 35%. QF, together with 3K and JQ, have the largest market share in Changi after SQ.

Releasing bits and pieces of info on where 3K might fly longhaul ex SIN, just awoke a sleeping dragon in SIA, who out of the blue announced plans for their own longhaul LCC. For the last 7 years, SIA had to fight with 3K for rights to various regional destinations, as well as to AKL, where Singapore and NZ enjoy open skies.

The Singapore government is willing to overlook the fact that 3K is an Australian proxy airline fully funded by Qantas, because of the benefits that Qantas hubbing in SIN brings to the greater Singaporean economy, as well as the jobs it brings.

Now SIA is starting their longhaul LCC to snap up the rights and slots to popular but low yielding destinations like Athens, Rome, maybe Gold Coast etc. Probably just to prevent 3K from getting hold of the rights in the next rights allocations meeting of Singaporean carriers.

And notice that SIA isn't giving any details about where this carrier might fly. Jetstar seem to love to announce months and months in advance that "we think we wanna fly to Tokyo Haneda" or "we think we wanna fly to Athens". It just gives SIA all the time in the world to plan and shock them at the slots allocation meetings.

I also find it intriguing that QF thinks their expertise is relevant in Asia. Asia, including West Asia, is home to some of the best and well run airlines in the world like SQ CX and EK.

Good luck to QF - As a Singaporean of course I like to see more airlines flying into my home airport, and am probably glad about the jobs being created (though that is questionable if the crew are all LHR-based and the pilots are all Aussie) Oh whatever - at least the pax in transit will spend some money in the airport shops! I'm sure that will translate into some benefit for Singapore - oh wait everything bought airside is tax free! Damn.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

IMHO Joyce has to go. The job security we are all seeking will not come until him and his mates have left the building.

[The Black Panther]

As a long time shareholder I am at the very least, extremely disappointed with your efforts to try and make a dividend come my way.

I have heard and read the first the portion of the four pillar plan you have and I am not impressed, I would say I am worried. Mr Jackson and Mr Purvinas convey my concerns. However in order to make someone accountable (something that Qantas management historically shys away from) for this polarising change in direction of our national airline I would like you to make a committment.

A committment to your shareholders and employess and a simple committment TO YOUR PLAN.
A committment simple and straighforward.
A committment of putting your money where your mouth is.
A committment is for you and your senior executives to repay 75% of your remuneration for the next five years IF YOUR PLAN FAILS (The metric is simple Profit after tax is better in the future than it is now) however I offer you long term rewards and high bonuses if your plan works. One provisio as a national carrier you have a committment to the nation.

Look forward to your reply.
BP

Should you fail, we'll use the funds to re-build another Australian aircraft industry without you thanks just like our forefathers did.

[ALLTHEWAYSTRAIGHT]

Geez you blokes - I think you're all on drugs.

No one is helping to destroy QF more than the ALAEA and the AIPA with their idiotic media campaigns. Get real all you emotional has-beens with your heads in the sand, and accept that if QF is to survive there has to be change on a grand scale. If there's no change then the whole lot will go down in the face of the unrelenting competition.
Accept the inevitable and make it work for everyone's benefit you nit wits.

VofReason is correct. Get with it and score some goals rather than destroy the pitch.

[V-Jet]

If you had any understanding of airlines I might listen to you. I understand business more than most posters here so I know what you are saying but you are so, so wrong. This vile management are way out of their depth. I am utterly disgusted. Tragic. Tragic. Sickening. Little irish prick. Dixon slimebag etc.

As crew I see us locked in cattle trucks bound for Poland. There is nothing left to lose.

Long term employees know what could have been.

[qantaspilots]

We all know that Alan is a little hard to understand sometimes so here is a subtitled version of the "new spirit" video.

It proves that he isn't incompetently running the airline, he actually is meaning to send it broke. :} :} :}

And he seems to be doing a great job. :ok:

_NRKrmEjVNM

[qantaspilots]

And here he is facing the tough questions.

He faces them, I didn't say he answers them.......

ojE7fogh6rU

[ALLTHEWAYSTRAIGHT]

See what I mean by "emotional".

Look at the logic, look at the reality and accept that the cosy nest you've been defecating in for the past several decades with your mother feeding you, is about to get shaken from the tree.

You may not like the management (nobody likes management at the best of times) and you can get off on your vitriol, but you won't change the inevitable.

[wrongwayaround]

Errgghhhhhh....
I've never said this myself before....
I've heard other people say it....
Here goes...
"Why become a pilot" :oh:

[puff]

Someone on Qantas Facebook page commented that Qantas was cutting London services - the person manning the replies commented that they were infact NOT cutting services to London - they were simply consolidating them !

Jump on and and read some of the quite viscious comments from people that to have the ability to post had to 'like' Qantas.

[Seriously]

ALLTHEWAYSTRAIGHT what do you do in the industry if you don't mind me asking? Wouldn't happen to be in Q Management?:yuk:

[donpizmeov]

Qantas overhauls with $9 bln fleet order, 2 new airlines | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/16/uk-qantas-idUSLNE77F01J20110816)

Mentions 200 pilot jobs here. No saying where they got the number from though.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

Leigh Clifford has stated that he is concerned that Joyce and Co are going to leave Qantas and take their expertise elsewhere.
His justification for this?
Joyce comes in 30% cheaper than Dixon. A bargain.
The cairman is ultimate responsible for the direction.
I forsee a blame game coming on. Who will be found responsible for the destruction? Management or the Board?

[buttmonkey1]

Joyce and Co are going to leave Qantas and take the expertise elsewhere.

i'm not a religious man,
but i WILL be praying tonight.

[Pundit]

The little fella can only say that 'reducing the workforce by 1000' will fix the problem. Why doesn't he outline the actual root cause of the alleged 'mainline fiasco' for all to see, including a breakdown of poor management decisions and related issues that have contributed? If you are going to wield an axe, start chopping at the core of the problem. The way the execs are acting you would think that they feel they are immortal, have been filled with divine holy spirit and are some sort of Elliot Ness ? Its time to remove the head of the fish.



I had a very interesting email from a colleague who is closely associated with Irish Business. It is his opinion that we are all labouring under our Australian beliefs and teachings. AJ isn’t attached to, or constrained by, these beliefs, teaching or our history. He is not an Australian and had been brought up in a Country where intellectual betrayal, or more specifically, mental reservation, casuistry and equivocation are accepted practice.

As he (my colleague) explained, the Collins Dictionary defines mental reservation as....’a tacit withholding of full assent or an unexpressed qualification made when one is taking an oath, making a statement, etc.’ Casuistry is ....’ reasoning that is specious, misleading, or oversubtle’.

The doctrines of mental reservation and casuistry were developed in the middle ages and are most often associated with the Jesuits. Mental reservation involves truths "expressed partly in speech and partly in the mind," relying upon the idea that God hears what is in one's mind while human beings hear only what one speaks. Verbally, “I did not steal any sheep on Tuesday”, mentally continuing, “it was on Wednesday”. It is a way of telling lies while being able to claim that you’ve been completely honest. For instance, the Primate of Ireland, Cardinal Desmond Connell, was comfortable with telling journalists that diocesan funds are not used to pay off the victims of clerical abusers, and he was very pleased with the subtlety of his language. He took great satisfaction in explaining that he didn’t say such funds were not used in the past, and if the journalists happened to be hoodwinked by his clever use of language, why that was just their own misfortune for not being as slippery smart as the Cardinal!

In our culture the statement, “Mr. Boyce is not in the office” typically means that Boyce is not taking phone calls right now (or, at least not this particular phone call). The caller understands (or should understand) that this is a polite way of saying, “Boyce is not available to you at this moment, even though he is actually in the office.” No one is really fooled by this expression using ambiguous language; we simply take it for what it is.

President Bill Clinton was educated at the foremost Jesuit training centre, Georgetown University. According to Clinton's biographer David Maraniss, the President owed his formidable skills as a criminal defendant to 'his training in casuistry at Georgetown University'. Casuistry is equivocal to rationalization, “to cause something to seem reasonable, to provide plausible but untrue reasons for conduct”. We all recall Bill Clinton, a former Rhodes Scholar, insist that he did not have sexual relations with that woman, when most guys in his position would be more than happy to think of what he got up to as just that!

Closer to home there was the Australian Spycatcher affair. Sir Robert Armstrong, now Baron Armstrong, produced the magnificent phrase “economical with the truth”. The world loved the patent absurdity of Armstrong’s phrase, and laughed at it, because we all understood what he meant. Economical with the truth! Every parent knows who took the sweets, or put a football through the window. It was Mister Nobody or maybe a kamikaze.

The question that should be asked of AJ and the QF spin doctors is, ‘Do you have a mental reservation in respect of your statement?’

[Keg]

Do they realise that in Malaysia, everyone needs a cut?

Interesting. It would be a breach of QF corporate policy to give one. I don't think that would stop them though.

[DrPepz]

Keg - there are many legal and above-board ways to structure payouts. Most can even stand scrutiny in a court of law in any developed country.

It would be silly to think QF didn't do it in Vietnam.

[mcgrath50]

I was really hoping this would read:

Joyce shoots himself in the foot.... by shooting himself in the foot

[22k]

They are copping a pasting on their Facebook page guys. It's very very anti joyce over there!!

[QFdude]

A380 to HKG!!!!

[aulglarse]

QFdude, do you mean the A380's x 6 for a Jq franchise?

[TIMA9X]

For those who missed it, this is the live announcement before the media gets a chance to digest it,
part 1
aT11aLtXPcY

part 2
gTcrIKFXeR0

Amateur hour, even News 24 cut it short. It appears this press conference revealed nothing much new other than demonstrate that the Qantas media department don't have a clue in delivering a short concise message, it was a very poor event considering this company is an Australian icon. I feel for the staff who have to endure this foreign monotone from this CEO.

That's how I felt this morning after seeing it for the first time.

[ALLTHEWAYSTRAIGHT]

Interesting burst from DrPepz, but doesn't the whole of ASIAN become "open skies" in a year or two?

[QFdude]

No, QF A380!!

[DrPepz]

ASEAN Open Skies? That's only for capital cities. It was meant to kick in 2 years ago, and now it's apparently kicking in in 2015. And even then, will it? Isn't ASEAN all about that skit they put up at the end of the meeting?

Which interesting city pairs do you have for ASEAN open skies?

Singapore-all the ASEAN capitals perhaps. Dozens of flights SIN-KUL, MNL, CGK, BKK, SGN (but that's not the capital!)

But what other route pairs necessitate a full service premium carrier?

Manila-Bangkok: PR 2x TG 2x 5J 1x daily
Manila-Jakarta: 4x weekly by PR. No other airline flies it
Manila-KUL: PR doesn't even fly it. MH 2x daily

Jakarta-KUL: Dozens of flights

Jakarta-BKK: GA 2x, TG 2x, Indon Air Asia: 1x

Jakarta-Hanoi: Not served

KUL-Hanoi: MH 1x, AK 1x VN 1x

What other routes within the ASEAN capital cities would be of much interest? If you take away SIN and BKK, the other capital cities can barely sustain a daily service. 3K is already serving all ASEAN capitals ex SIN except Laos. Even Rangoon is served by Jetstar Asia in cooperation with Myanmar Airways!

Oh isn't East Timor in ASEAN now. Any takers for Dili-Hanoi? or Rangoon-Jakarta? Silk Air already flies SIN-Dili.

In ASEAN you have Singapore and Burma and every country in between. Every country is culturally, politically and economically different from each other. Most ASEAN countries view each other with suspicion and try to outdo each other. Malaysia regularly has spats with Indonesia and Singapore. Singapore has spats with nearly every country due to small dick syndrome, and the fact it is richer than everyone else. That's why Singapore welcomes Australia into all the ASEAN meets because the rest of South East ASia hates Singapore and Australia, so both countries stick together because of common enemies. And so on.

[ALLTHEWAYSTRAIGHT]

Hmmmm------perhaps QF is learning from the Chinese and all is not what it seems!

[TIMA9X]

For those who missed it, I thought the 7.30 report was very good, AJ got a few hard questions out of nowhere. What is interesting was the views from the public interviewed at KSA.

RIa-bpPs1Fo

[tong]

Not a regular poster but from a pax side of view. I recently booked a trip to Europe for the family. I went to two different Flight centre offices and were basically told the same thing "Last resort would be to fly Qantas" said with a fair degree of disdain. You would think that Qantas would be trying to fix something like that if they were keen on attracting international passengers because it's obviously what FC staff have been prepped to say.

[Team America]

And don't worry, I am sure there will plenty of Aussie pilots willing to go and work for nothing with the "new" QF :ugh:

[The The]

Notice the rapid blinking in the 7.30 report interview.

"Blink rate tends to increase when people are thinking more or are feeling stressed. This can be an indication of lying as the liar has to keep thinking about what they are saying."

[mcgrath50]

The man is delusional, congratulating himself? Saying the voxpops agree with him when they are clearly very angry at him? Union leaders talking down the brand, since when was Alan a union leader?

:ugh:

[Condition 1]

ALLTHEWAYSTRAIGHT. What you say could be true if indeed the facts were all the way straight. If ALAEA Fed Sec's 60 odd questions would be answered truthfully we'll soon see that constructive accounting as to subsidization of J* by QF is rampant. And the lies as to which branch of the so-called Qantas Group is actually rotten would be spelled out.

Qantas International is not hemorrhaging money, it is being bled deliberately by bloodsucking vermin to push their own parasitic barrows.

Let's forensically investigate the books and then we'll see which trees need shaking. I think you'll find it's your Management mates who'll fall hardest and fastest.

[fishers.ghost]

Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/)

The fightback must begin today.

[Captain Peacock]

ALLTHEWAYSTRAIGHT what do you do in the industry if you don't mind me asking? Wouldn't happen to be in Q Management?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gifSounds to me like an ex Chief Pilot and an ex AIPA pres. That you Chris? Enjoying Tiger?

[Worrals in the wilds]

It appears this press conference revealed nothing much new other than demonstrate that the Qantas media department don't have a clue in delivering a short concise messageThat's because they're all busy signing up to PPRuNe to sing praises to the heavenly Joyce. All these new faces...:suspect:

Pundit, interesting. That sounds very similar to the Lie By Omission concept :8. Of course any attempt to deceive is a lie, whatever the method used.

The full page 'we're still Orstrayian' ads in the big papers were a particularly :yuk: making touch. 'We will always be proud that the vast majority of our operations are based in Australia', could probably be completed as; 'because we have to comply with that pesky Qantas Sale Act.

[fdr]

while it may be fun to vent at AJ & Co, at the end of the day, they have both the will and the authority to carry out their "design".

Those affected within the company, or having any affection for the brand have simple choices to proceed with.

1. If AJ's accounting is misleading, then show it. There would be adequate evidence within the organisation to show this if it was the case. If so, produce it to the ACCC.

2. Use the "gift" of the low share price and buy control of the company. The current principle shareholders are hardly impressed with the company performance, and are unlikely to resist. Currently,t hats about 45K each on average to secure your own future, for a majority share, excluding the shares you already own....

3. Depart. Go somewhere else where you may be currently needed. Don't expect much better behaviour by any other management teams though, AJ while being singularly unprepossessing, is characteristic of the malaise within management in this industry.

4. Accept AJ's mumblings as being honest opinions as to the best outcome for QF... :D. No seriously, there may be truth to that, that the international fleet is a drain, that jetstar can teach SQ, CX, EK how to run businesses... that passengers will be overjoyed to be thrown peanuts (after payment: cash/cheque/visa...) from happily marginalised staff... he may be right. The earth may also be flat. If so, relax and enjoy the ride; the advancing light is the end of the tunnel... honest.

QF needs to change, no question. Management has a duty to tell the truth and not mislead investors and workers.

[22k]

Can i just ask how NOT spending any capital in the international business will help it? I just dont see how setting up a new J* operation, cutting europe routes and setting up another carrier is supposed to help Long Haul? Am i the only one who doesnt get it? How the f&*k is that supposed to help?

[adsyj]

The only way of saving Qantas as we know it, is for the shareholders to start questioning the board and management.

A brave and smart fund manager saved us once before, hopefully one of the big guys can do it again. Maybe the next step from our unions is to to take allegations of "strange accounting" direct to the big shareholders.

Unfortuanetley we the workforce are just not heard not matter how hard we shout.

Best wishes to all my Qantas family, stay strong.

[peuce]

Can i just ask how NOT spending any capital in the international business will help it? I just dont see how setting up a new J* operation, cutting europe routes and setting up another carrier is supposed to help Long Haul? Am i the only one who doesnt get it? How the f&*k is that supposed to help?

No, you aren't the only one.


Reduce flights to London
Give away customers to other airlines
Set up a low cost airline in Japan
Setup a new(presumably short haul) airline in Singapore?
Get rid of a few aircraft
Cancel orders for other aircraft
Buy a truck load of short haul aircraft for low cost subsidiary


That will surely improve QF Longhaul :ugh:

I think they're working on the principle that ... if we can get long haul down to no flights, then we'll save a mozza:ugh:

[Swimbetweentheflags]

Can just picture JB sitting in his office right now with a smile on his face watching AJ imploding Qantas from within.
Senate inquiry was right when they labelled him the irish b..b maker :D

[Keg]

The points I'm going to try and make today.

Thanks for attending today and fronting the pilot group although I should point out that you’re paid to be here, unlike most of the guys and girls in the audience who are here on a day off, and your positions are relatively safe and possibilities of demotion are remote, again, unlike most of the guys and girls in the audience.

At the Senate inquiry, both Bruce Buchanan and Alan Joyce indicated that J* upheld all the safety requirements of Qantas and yet J* was shown to be inadequate WRT their medical training for F/As, their fatigue management for both flight and cabin crew and to be keen to be employing F/Os with 200 hours- something the Qantas Chief Pilot indicated quite visibly a while back that QF would never do. Bruce and Alan were either dissembling, mistaken or lying- none of which is a good thing for a manager or inspires confidence from those of us who do the job.

In recent PR spin by Qantas we’ve had reports of a 26% pay rise, a $200K pay rise, spas, facials, free flights to London, etc. At best these are a significant distortion of reality although in some cases they are outright lies. On the qantasanswers web site we’ve seen the line that ‘all Qantas operated international flights are operated by Qantas pilots’ which is a deliberate distortion to not mention the ‘jetconnect’ operated flights.

We’ve seen the pilot group labeled as rogues, kamikazes, living on another planet which is apparently called cloud cuckoo land.

So what we see here is a pattern of dissembling, distortion, being economical with the truth and indeed, outright lies. The end result of this is a pathological distrust of ANYTHING that comes from the mouths of my management.

We’ve also seen reports of Qantas diminishing international share even though the 9% J* international has was mostly gifted from us. Recent reports indicated that J* international still wasn’t profitable but yet we never hear anything about it not returning it’s cost of capital and that’s with all the ‘support’ that we provide them.

I have no problem with the setting up of an Asian carrier, I can see the advantages of being in that market place although I think the Asians will see us coming and eat us alive. However I fail to see how decreasing Qantas international’s footprint in the market place is going to lead to increased market share. More likely we’re going to continue to bleed market share- significantly- as people go and fly somewhere else where they don’t have to change off a Qantas flight to a BA one or can go one stop to destination via EK, Qatari, Etihad, etc.

So given QF’s obvious history of distorting the truth, how does this announcement increase QF’s market share and why should we believe anything you tell us in response.

[mcgrath50]

Can't wait to see the response Keg, but somehow I doubt you will ever get one!

[ohallen]

I think that the questions raised are now the hub of the matter.

These are the lies, spin, deceptions that have emanated from this lot up until now, why should anyone believe anything that they are now saying.

The critical issues are:
1. They are starving the product deliberately.
2. They may yet be proven to have misstated the position re financial performance (re ALAEA questions).
3. They are giving away rights on significant QF routes.
4. They present NO plan that presents any strategy except the growth and expansion of Jstar.
5. They are clearly intending to inflict pain on Domestic arm by removal of aircraft so how long will it take them to do the same they are now doing to International.
6. They have provided no information on critical aspects eg 787 so what else are they witholding?

There is no vision beyond orange and at best tokenism to the rest.

[Timber]

It is almost as if the prime objective is to drive the share price down. Surely QF must be getting very very attractive to asset strippers! That is where the real danger is in my opinion.

[SimonBl]

I think the reports this morning of AJ claiming that the union leaders are 'talking down and denigrating the brand" is insulting at best. Even I, as SLF (and SunFish, I don't take offense at that) know that that's exactly what AJ has been doing himself for at least the last 6 months.

FacePprune is backfiring on QF yesterday and today, this may be a tipping point, I think....

[mcgrath50]

If asset strippers come in, is it curtains for all the employees? Or would they sell Qantas mainline as a whole(and therefore keep the airline operating)?

[skybed]

QF in its statement to the ASX mentioned on its Asian strategy that they initially allocate 11 A320 aircraft to the new premium airline:ugh:
Go Figure:yuk:

[shakta]

Ok, let's look at this a bit more without some of the Qantas Management and AJ bashing....

Qantas may be losing a lot of money internationally and without all the figures that we don't have access to, it would be hard to make reasonable and correct comments.

I would prefer to still fly and see a Qantas Aircraft rather than see it die.. I know from years ago that after being overseas for a prolonged period to see the Qantas Aircraft in Asia that I wasn't far from home. Now in a short while that aircraft may have different crew or base (and I am not endorsing or agreeing to overseas crews or crew losing their jobs) but it will still be Qantas....

In regards to Qantas getting 777s or other aircraft, they will be getting 787s in the next few years and they probably did miss the boat with getting the aircraft at the right time, but why have another different aircraft type that will require spare parts, simulators, crews and engineers rated on that aircraft.

Hey no offence, but maybe they should get some A320s for Qantas as well and then they can be like Ansett and have:
A320s and 737s
767s, 777s, 787s, A330s,
747s and A380s

I am Australian, I am proud of Qantas and obviously the Board have not taken these decisions lightly.

[TIMA9X]

Qantas may be losing a lot of money internationally and without all the figures that we don't have access to, it would be hard to make reasonable and correct comments.That's the problem.... the figures don't make sense for the people who work at the Q on a daily basis. I for one don't believe what AJ is trying to say and get away with with his media budget.
On the 7.30 report video he said "I'm not sending jobs overseas, I'm just retreching aussies and creating new jobs overseas.."

Last week the Qantas spin machine said it will only cost 30 mil to set up in Asia, this week it was quoted in the media as 500 mil....

[Jethro Gibbs]

Seen AJ on lateline last night peddling this crap that LAWYERS in Thailand are tripping over each other to get well paid jobs on JETSTAR selling over priced orange juice and muffins what utter CRAP.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

[Roger that.]

Fear not boy's and girl's. AJ has just given us the very reason we will soon be able to get rid of him! Just like Margret departed after the failed APA bid, the man with glasses that are 2 sizes too big and possibly the worst dentist in the world will have to pack his bag and sod off. Like we've all said before. We were here before they came, and we will be around long after they've gone! You've just got to weather the storm in between.

[Animalclub]

AJ admits that fewer people fly QF out of Australia... what has been done to correct this? I have seen very little of QANTAS marketing in the past.

I dream again for the old days.
Think outside of the square (Freemasons forgive me).
If one is considering setting up a Premium Airline in Asia plus a joint effort in Japan why not instead start a Premium Airline in Southern Europe flying intra Europe and hubbing with QF from Australiua.

This means that the LHR slots are retained (will QF be able to re purchase these slots sold to BA should QF decide to increase services to LHR?) and services to other European cities will be served by QF albeit under another name.

There are already two partly owned by QF airlines in Asia!! All one needs is another bout od Asian flu or bird flu and all you eggs are in one basket... so to speak!

As I said "Tell 'im 'e's dreaming"

[teresa green]

Just a suggestion, but I would, if I were you, be putting in your protest to your local MP and get everyone you know to do so also. Not just about job losses but the fact that the very airline itself is under threat of closure and moving offshore for cheaper parts and labor. (which is probably the ultimate game). It won't long before some MP becomes uncomfortable about it, and brings it to question time. It cannot hurt, the more its out there the better chance you have of arresting it. This is no longer about just jobs, its about a company under seige by the very people who run it. All QF unions now need to get together, and form a fighting force, because you cannot win this fight alone, not any more. We all know QF can knock the socks off other airlines if given the chance, it is a world favorite, and like TE it can stay in its own country and operate well with the right CEO and the staff right behind him/her. Its up to you all now, do you sink or swim? Lets see a bit of that Anzac spirit, better to be beaten standing, than on your knees. Its worth fighting for, it really is.

[1me]

This means that the LHR slots are retained (will QF be able to re purchase these slots sold to BA should QF decide to increase services to LHR?) and services to other European cities will be served by QF albeit under another name.The slots will remain QF owned but will be leased (not sold) to BA.

[33 Disengage]

He admits it because he knows it's true. That's part of the plan he presented to the QF board when JB and PG were frozen out by Clifford.

1. Diminish the QF international route network.
2. Reduce frequency.
3. Starve QF international capital requirements (Keep aging / tired aircraft).
4. J* get newer a/c, increased network, increased frequency.
5. Frustrate staff through difficult working environment.

End result, fewer people fly QF, unit costs increase, not as profitable; The plan to break the people who made Qantas.

[DrPepz]

82% of international travellers into and out of Australia do not fly QF. If you take out Air NZ's marketshare, it becomes 90%. If you take out QF's trans-tasman market share + USA, you might find that it's close to 95% of international passengers into and out of Australia (excluding USA and NZ routes) do not fly QF. Are my stats right?

[LAME2]

Lovely day on the river. Sunscreen, hat and sunglasses are all on. Radio for the football results. Fridge keeping a few cold ones at the ready. Settling in for the wait ahead. Fishing rods showing no signs yet as I wait to haul in the catch as they head down river.

Looks picturesque. I'm smiling at the thought of what I'll see.

[peuce]

Mr Joyce on News.com:
"We're seeing the unions continuing to trash the Qantas name, they're continuing to undermine Qantas," he (Mr Joyce) said

Read more: Qantas boss Joyce: Union job claims nonsense | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/qantas-boss-joyce-union-job-claims-nonsense/story-e6frfkur-1226116720642#ixzz1VFs9LOHt)

Mr Joyce, in Media Presentation:

" It is a steadily fading business ... suffering big financial losses and a substantial decline in market share"

You be the judge ....

[Worrals in the wilds]

I would prefer to still fly and see a Qantas Aircraft rather than see it die... Opinions differ on this point, but I wouldn't. I get sick of Australian companies becoming non-Australian in practice but still hanging on to their iconic brand name so they can be 'Australian' for marketing purposes. IMO it's double dipping; lowering costs by using cheap overseas labour so they can undercut genuine Aussie companies and make even huger profits but still milking the nationalism angle so gullible people think they're buying Australian and supporting Aussie industry. :yuk:

If multinationalism is the only way forward, why not open up the domestic market to foreign operators and we'll see how long Qantas remains competitive then? If it's no longer an Australian airline that employs Australians, why should the government protect it?

[forgetabowdit]

Gee Peter Reith and his views on the whole thing are a bit of a worry...

Did anyone see him on ABC24's The Drum last night?

I am constantly impressed (read: bewildered) how easily high level politicians, like he was, continue to accept the rhetoric from private companies, who's culling actions will adversely effect their very own constituents, and blindly tow the company line that Slashing staff is necessary...

Politicians need to remember who they represent...

[standard unit]

You couldn't get a seat into or out of SFO in April just before the "smartest guys in the room", cancelled the service.

SFO Airport manager confirmed pax numbers for April were 1000 up on the year before. Yields were up, plenty of cargo and all with no advertising [route closure already flagged].

He was beside himself with frustration. :ugh:

Leaving staff behind in JFK ?

Perfect opportunity for the buffoons to cancel the service.

Politicians need to remember who they represent...

What? Are you implying that politicians from his party represent, "the people"?

[Tankengine]

Had Peter Reith on the flight deck once - almost voted Labor after that!:ugh:
I can see why he missed out on the Liberal presidency.:D

[SeldomFixit]

I am constantly impressed (read: bewildered) how easily high level politicians, like he was, continue to accept the rhetoric from private companies, who's culling actions will adversely effect their very own constituents, and blindly tow the company line that Slashing staff is necessary...

Politicians need to remember who they represent...

Wont ever happen - far more important to remember who owns them.
Any mug that thinks Government exists for any purpose beyond implementing what the Corporations need to feed their greed, is deluding themself.

[Sunfish]

I am afraid that I cannot think of a more destructive strategy in terms of shareholder value than the one Joyce is pursuing. It fails on every possible level:

1. Alienating the workforce.

2. Running down public perceptions of brand value ( the unique selling proposition).

3. Dissemination of resources (as opposed to concentration of resources).

4. Multiple aims (as opposed to selection and maintenance of the aim).

5. Failure to build competitive advantage.

6. Inadequate cost control (proliferation of indirect costs and bad accounting policies).

I could go on.

To put it another way; how would Australians react if we were treated to a news presentation from a North Korean "Airline CEO" who announced that he was about to enter the domestic Australian Aviation market and build a full service domestic airline on the basis of "North Korean Aviation expertise" and that the huge expected profits generated were going to be repatriated to North Korean investors? Would you fly with this guy? Yeah right.


BTW, stockbrokers recommendations of a "buy" for Qantas are not only self serving, they are just plain wrong.

[TIMA9X]

As resquested, for those who missed it, last nights LATELINE

LYCc3Hi_sAU

I wouldn't worry too much about what we find in Australia's print media today, Q is spending a fortune at the moment promoting their lies, my belief anyway . The commercial print/television media don't want to rock the boat.

What everyone may have missed, was Tony Abbott mentioning the word "Qantas" in parliament.. this in fact is a positive for our cause over the next week or so, at least he is on the record..:D

Oh yeah, well done SP, done good mate.:ok:

[Just Relaxin]

I have read and heard numerous times in the recent past and in particular since yesterday’s announcement of QF’s plans the “fact” that Qantas international is a fading business, that it is losing $200,000,000 a year and that this is attributable to the “fact” that its costs are 20% higher than its competitors.

At no time have any of the politicians and particularly the press who have been handed this line indicated that they have queried these figures and asked Alan Joyce to demonstrate the veracity of his claims. They have all sheepishly believed what they have been told.

I would like to state categorically that what he is saying is absolute rubbish. I can say this as, in early 2006, at a meeting which was attended by Geoff Dixon, Peter Gregg, John Borghetti, Kevin Brown, Sue Bussell and other senior management of Qantas that AIPA representatives made what can only be described as a spectacular offer to Qantas senior management.

AIPA made the offer that Qantas Long Haul pilots would operate the 4 x A330 aircraft that were about to go to Jetstar under terms and conditions similar to the contract that Qantas Australian Airlines operated the B767s out of Cairns. The conditions were of the order of a 20 – 25% reduction in hourly rates of pay compared to Qantas Long Haul B767 rates along with concessions on scheduling arrangements, allowances, accommodation, crew rest facilities and other items. The consideration was that Qantas Long Haul pilots operate the aircraft rather than giving the flying to Jetstar.

In reply to the offer Peter Gregg (as spokesman) made a dismissive gesture with his hand and said words to the effect “Don’t even think about it, we’re not interested.”

It was clear then, and remains abundantly clear, that the whole direction that Qantas senior management were heading had nothing to do with economics and everything to do with industrial policy. What is being said now about costs is a smokescreen to cover their continuing industrial agenda.

The press and politicians have to take a stand and make Alan Joyce and the Qantas Board open the Qantas books and accounts to a public inspection and either prove what they are saying is true or accept that it is all about industrial strategies and hidden agendas.

[DutchRoll]

Peter Reith is an ass. :mad: And if the mods would let me, I'd call him much worse than that. This is the same guy who, when he was a senior Minister in Government, pretty much tried to hang Angus Houston, an entirely honourable and respected senior military officer, out to dry during the "people overboard" affair. Houston simply told the truth. Reith was shown to be making it up as he went along. That's the character of the man.

I agree with Worrals. You can't just buy the Bank of India, rename it "Commonwealth Bank of Australia", and seriously play the patriot card. Likewise, a Qantas Asia with overseas employees getting paid in overseas currency on overseas labour contracts paying overseas tax to an overseas Government and using overseas goods and services is NOT Australian, even if it has the "Qantas" name painted on the side.
:mad:

[teresa green]

Interesting to see Bob Katter and Barnaby Joyce get right up Alan Joyce. You will move QF OS over Katters dead body, he states. He IS a Queenslander and so is QF!:D Things are hotting up.:D

[Chimbu chuckles]

My father flew for QF from the mid 60s until retiring in 1987. He still keeps abreast of the goings on and recently we were discussing QF's current travails - he can give numerous examples of routes that were cancelled in the 60s and 70s and 80s which were ALWAYS chocker block full. The company I work for is about to do the same thing and make a bunch of us redundant. Cancel a route that feeds another route with 280+ pax EVERY time...and they think they will still be flying the later route without the feeder route:hmm:

I think, no I am sure, the last company I worked for that had REALLY good management was Talair. Dad's view is that QF have NEVER had good management at the top.

Example: Why doesn't QF have 777s? Because the company wouldn't have been attractive to APA.

[teresa green]

I have probably met your ol man up the track somewhere Chimbu. I would have to say there were a few excellent QF managers in my opinion. Capt. Bert Richie, Hamilton, Yates, Menidue, and Ward were all good operators. Certainly run rings around the present crop thats for sure. Run them past him. Was your ol man in PNG?

[Pukka]

Eying Qantas, Etihad talks up Aussie market


Wednesday, 17 August 2011
http://i.etbnews.com/etb/article/2011/122201.jpgEtihad carries 8 million passengers to 70 cities around the world
Etihad chief executive James Hogan believes global airlines will be keeping a close eye on the restructuring of Qantas’ international operations, with opportunities expected to arise from a decision by the airline to cut routes.
“We see Qantas maybe withdrawing from certain routes so we are very keen remind consumers and the travel trade that there is an alternative, a viable alternative called Etihad,” Mr Hogan told press in Sydney, calling Australia a key source of growth for the airline.
Currently, around 15 per cent of Etihad’s capacity in terms of available seat kilometres is currently dedicated to the Aussie market, the Australian reported.
And according to Mr Hogan, the carrier will be hoping to build further on its presence down under as it looks to increase its Brisbane services to be daily, and eventually commence services to Perth.
“We know that to get Brisbane where we’d like it to be, we need to go daily,” the Etihad boss remarked.
“It’s just a matter of timing.”
Mr Hogan said a focus by the airline on regions such as China would mean operations to Perth would not happen in “the short term”, according to the newspaper.
“You’ll start to see more frequency in the Middle East, more destinations and frequency into China,” he commented.
“You’ll see in the next couple of years destinations in Vietnam and more US penetration.
“So Perth will probably be around the 2014-15 mark.”
Etihad currently operates 11 weekly flights out of Sydney, daily services from Melbourne and three weekly flights from Brisbane.
Earlier this month, the carrier launched a major nationwide advertising campaign inviting Australians to“change to the best” (http://etravelblackboard.com/article/121730/etihad-invites-australians-to-change-to-the-best).

[Hugh Mungous]

Cityflyer routes to have expanded frequencies during peak business travel times, JQ to take over less profitable frequencies, after 20:00 and saturday afternoons from 14:00 and sunday mornings before 12:00.

JQ also get non Cityflyer jet routes fulltime (except WA) and operate into Canberra for the first time to HBA,OOL & TSV.

AYQ will remain the only non Cityflyer route ops by QF for the time being.


One does't have to be Nostradamus to see that in 2 years time, some of us will be back here again... Jumping up and down, when QANTAS Domestic is no longer profitable or viable due to its route structure being cannibalised by "The Orange Haemorrhoid" and fully supported by QF infrastructure. Don't get me wrong, there is a place for the Jet* model, but the imminent marketing campaign to change the public's perception of the Jet* product to entice the corporate community will be enough to make a billy goat gag...

[wishiwasupthere]

Qantas versus everyone in Canberra
Qantas hits political turbulence on Capitol Hill | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/17/qantas-versus-everyone-in-canberra/)

[Qantas 787]

standard unit - SFO was a failure for a long time. DFW even with its diversions is a huge success and is getting much better numbers.

You can't comment on routes in isolation without the figures and profitability. SFO was bleeding money, DFW is the opposite.

[correcting]

did anyone hear one "Captain Alfie" on 3AW at about 9.30 this morning??

a Qantas domestic captain flying mel-bne or syd-bne ragging out on the long haul pilots calling them greedy and saying the unions should lay down their arms..


not sure if this captain alfie is some mgmt scum but seemed like he makes regular appearances on neil mitchells show :confused:
Captain Alfie is more commonly known as "Nails"

[DrPepz]

I don't know why QF says they can't operate to Europe profitably. SQ operates:

SIN-NRT-LAX A380
SIN-FRA-JFK 744 soon to be A380
SIN-DME-IAH 77W
SIN-ICN-SFO 77W
SIN-HKG-SFO 77W
SIN-BCN-GRU 77W (oh and they're making a killing on this. Flights BCN-GRU overbooked for weeks)
SIN-EWR vv A345
SIN-LAX vv A345

The geographical challenge SQ faces in operating from Singapore to the USA and Brazil is the same challenge which QF faces operating Australia-Europe. Thankfully though, SQ didn't just withdraw from the USA and opt to put its pax across the pacific or atlantic on codeshare partners.

MOst of the routes have been operating for decades, and many like SIN-DME-IAH and SIN-BCN-GRU are very out of the way, circuitous routes.

If a Singaporean carrier can fill flights between Spain and Brazil, two countries which Singapore has little cultural or economic ties to, why can't QF fly more than twice a day to London ?! Anecdotal evidence suggests that SQ's BCN-GRU is entirely filled with Spanish and Portuguese speakers, and the meal service is a massive pointing exercise between pax and crew!

Obviously SQ only manages to do it because they employ slave labour from Thailand on a base wage of $250 a month. Oh wait, that's not SQ is it?

[DutchRoll]

SFO was bleeding money, DFW is the opposite.

SFO was probably the perfect route for a B777.

Oh........that's right.......

;)

[Seriously]

You can't comment on routes in isolation without the figures and profitability. SFO was bleeding money, DFW is the opposite.

So how do you?:suspect:

[Fliegenmong]

Quote - Peter Reith is an ass. And if the mods would let me, I'd call him much worse than that. This is the same guy who, when he was a senior Minister in Government

A senior minister in whose gummint???

And what was his portfolio? And what job did he abandon his electorate/portfolio for? And what was his son doing with his phone? And what is he even back here for?

[ohallen]

Sense a pattern here... waterside workers...Reith, Dubai plan, strike breakers, guards with dogs, IR consultants....think it speaks for itself .

Who would have thought QF would ever get to this.

Train travel is starting to look attractive within Australia.

[Cargo744]

IMHO Joyce has to go. The job security we are all seeking will not come until him and his mates have left the building.

Another "Tooth fairy" statement. How would you propose this happens Steve?

Set a plan and actually serve your members... sorry is that too hard?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Another "Tooth fairy" statement. How would you propose this happens Steve?


I would propose that this happens without telegraphing my punches on Pprune.

[stubby jumbo]

I thought things couldn't get any worse....after watching the little irish weasel stutter and stammer on tele last night.

BUT.....

Today, a Management representative came into our briefing to proclaim:

"If you volunteer to take a redundancy (VR).....then you are saving others from suffering Compulsory Redundancy (CR)"

Que ?????:ugh:

I asked him to repeat it as I was sure I was hearing things.....but no he repeated it.

So is this the new dictum from HR to get rid of people. Shame people to leave -in order to "save your fellow man (or woman)"

As I'm one of the lucky ones -who is in fact leaving...... with nothing to lose-said to him that this was yet another example of management having total and utter contempt for their loyal staff.

The result was predictable.

A smirk-then he walked out.:hmm:

This whole tawdry episode is appalling and makes me ill just thinking about it. To spend $500m on setting up a business in Asia/Japan with no experience other than the debacle in Vietnam- in lieu of investing in the International product.....STINKS.

THE OPPORTUNITIES OF THE 777-GONE
THE DECISION OF JOYCE OVER BORGHETTI-GONE

"What you sow.....you shall reap!"

[fatbus]

Out of the 1000 employees how many pilots will be made redundant ?

[SOPS]

You COULD NOT make this stuff up!!! What a complete farce.

I was just thinking of this...lets say I am in Melbourne and want to go to, lets say Geneva under the new QF plan....

I could go on QF to SYD then SIN then LHR (the nightmare that that place is) and then on BA to Geneva......or.................

I could go on EK direct to DXB then EK direct to Geneva, now which is the better option????

Morons:yuk:

[Keg]

SOPs, you can still go QF from MEL direct to SIN. Sadly you're probably not going to avoid LHR. :ugh:

Fatbus, excess as at mid next year is supposed to be 180. Redundancies will depend on who takes LWOP.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Stubby's story is very similar to one I heard from a QF rampie who had asked a middle manager about the long term viability of some crappy new system they were being subjected to. The answer was 'What's it matter, you'll all be gone in a few years anyway.' Complete with smirk :yuk:

You get the feeling that Qantas gets people applying for managerial positions to sit the same psych and personality tests other companies use, but takes the candidates who flunk rather than pass...:hmm:

[SHRAGS]

A question that should be asked at the road shows is how the comparison of 777 on QF compared to starting 2 new airlines in a competitive Asian market.

Leslie Grant would surely have looked at this scenario as that was her brief wasn't it??

Who would be surprised if no QF growth was even considered. Misleading??

[victor two]

Fed Sec Steve,
Gone a bit quiet? I seem to recall you starting a thread recently on this very topic by offering a long list of your plans and ideas to fix up qantas. What happened?

Did you have any success with the "hold a barbie for the workers" strategy?

Maybe now the reality of it all is upon you.....you dont want to play anymore!

[Sunfish]

Alan Joyce:

"We're a great employer. We're one of the best employers in this country and we've always looked after our employees," he said.

Politicians turn up heat on Qantas plans - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-17/qantas-feeling-political-heat/2844026)

Like the Captain and his son abandoned in Hong Kong? Like the LAMES stood down in Queensland for reporting defects? Like the entire International workforce left dangling for Six weeks until August 24th?

There is a SEVERE COGNITIVE DISSONANCE at work here!

[flying lid]

Just a pommie SLF view on the situation. Family & I fly MAN (UK) to BKK for holiday & visit family & friends every 2 years or so, since 1993. We have used many airlines, including Qantas, via both Frankfurt & Heathrow. (Alas, never yet got to Ozz !). Qantas WAS one of, if not THE the best, "Would you like champagne with your breakfast, Sir", and that was in economy. Allways friendly service. (last flew Qantas in 2006).

However last few years, BA, Qantas and the other (non middle east) airlines got expensive. To expensive for me, wife & 3 kids. Etihad and Emirates have become the only affordable option to us, and we can fly halfway there MAN-DBX, (8 hrs), have a break, walk round & do a bit of shopping before the DBX - BKK (6.5 hr flight). Comfortable, convenient, reliable. We also cut out that miserable sh*t hole, Heathrow.

And that is the point. EK & EY fly Dubai to several UK airports. Qantas doesn't get a look in, too expensive & no longer convenient. EK / EY have the commercial advantage due to the locations of their hubs, and their multitude of interconnecting, affordable flights to virtually everywhere.

I hope Qantas survives, and the proposals I have read about here do not happen, but in todays indebted world, everything regarding money is bloody difficult.

One last point, why do many major airlines have offensive little Irishmen in Charge? - BA, RyanAir, Qantas, etc. I worked with Irish Labourers many years ago, great lads, hard workers, but one thing I never forget being told by one was "NEVER trust an Irishman who wears a suit".

Good luck and and best wishes to you all - hope I can (afford) to fly with you again one day.

Lid

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Fed Sec Steve,
Gone a bit quiet? I seem to recall you starting a thread recently on this very topic by offering a long list of your plans and ideas to fix up qantas. What happened?

Did you have any success with the "hold a barbie for the workers" strategy?

Maybe now the reality of it all is upon you.....you dont want to play anymore!



It is barbies for workers, not managers, that's why you weren't there last Saturday night.

Plans to fix Qantas? You think they would listen? The plans have been drawn up for the new management team.

Play? You think this is a game do you. Maybe you can get some of your mates to answer these questions -

Qantas engineers serve carrier with Jetstar cost questions | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/16/questions-that-qantas-investors-may-like-to-have-answered/)

[Worrals in the wilds]

I hope Qantas survives, and the proposals I have read about here do not happen, but in todays indebted world, everything regarding money is bloody difficult.


Qantas are surviving. In fact Qantas are doing very well and predicting a $500m profit. They'd like everyone to believe otherwise and that's the PR spin they're pushing, but they're far from being on the bones of their wing struts. The word on the ramp is that this is an IR war disguised as globalisation rhetoric, because they think the pollies and the public are stupid enough to buy the 'Qantas is going broke and needs foreign serfs to survive' propaganda. They aren't going broke and if Air New Zealand can run a decent international airline from the Antarctic Circle, Qantas should be able to figure out a strategy that doesn't include backpacking through Asia shouting 'Australia sucks'.

They must know their product is substandard (it's gone downhill badly since 2006) because even people living in Arnhem Land caves have figured that out. It's been openly said across Australia for the last few years that EK etc are better and cheaper. If you can't flog an Aussie product to Aussies and you're losing market share to Ay-rabs (you'd know from JetBlast that we're massively parochial) then there's something wrong with it. They claim it's costs, but the $500m profit says otherwise.

If they were genuinely interested in the product they would have advertised it, improved it, made sure it was great...again, even the cave people have noticed the lack of QF advertising over the last 12 months. They're just not trying.

Nothing they have said about the Great Overhaul is about the product. No new seats, no new menu, no smiling hosties, none of the stuff that is usually spearheads airline PR announcements across the globe. You get the feeling that they hate their product and the people that deliver it.

Joyce flags overhaul after Qantas profit forecast - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-06-22/joyce-flags-overhaul-after-qantas-profit-forecast/2767422)


One last point, why do many major airlines have offensive little Irishmen in Charge?

Not a lot of business opportunities back home at the moment.:E It's long been said that the only thing Ireland exports is people. Maybe their Meat Inspectors need to sharpen up on the quality control before their export industry gets a bad name... :}

[mmciau]

SOPS

You COULD NOT make this stuff up!!! What a complete farce.

I was just thinking of this...lets say I am in Melbourne and want to go to, lets say Geneva under the new QF plan....

I could go on QF to SYD then SIN then LHR (the nightmare that that place is) and then on BA to Geneva......or.................

I could go on EK direct to DXB then EK direct to Geneva, now which is the better option????

Moronshttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif

My wife and I flew Etihad ADL(Virgin)-MEL-AUH-DUB and return May-June 2011.

Noticed in Abu Dhabi that Etihad flew nearly all major European, African and Asian points.

AUH to DUB was 8 hours and Etihad was picked because Etihad did not fly to DUB via any London Airports and in particular Heathrow.


Mike

[B772]

Interesting to read that 255,280 Performance Rights to Shares for the benefit of Alan Joyce expired worthless on 8 July 2011 due to performance hurdles not being met.

There are still 371,070 Performance Rights in play for Joyce.

[ohallen]

The gamble goes on.....all eggs in the one basket with A380 to LHR and now another engine problem with that aircraft in LA. Sure it is a one off, but it is another one off.

What happens if these problems continue?

Shows the gambling mentality of this management.

[fdr]

Out of the 1000 employees how many pilots will be made redundant ?

If your question is how this affects other parties that are not going to be needed in the overseas programs that pornstar are suggesting... then I guess the outcome will be that any personnel other than pilots and engineers will be seriously disadvantaged by this action.

Any program starting up in asia right now is going to have issues getting crew and engineering staff. If you look at China, the cost of manpower is now substantial, and there still is a large shortage, particularly in the...A320/737 (Korea is a special case; the revolving door of the airline is legendary, at any price. Korea competes with the sandpit in losing staff, and the associated cost of churn). Japan? yep, AJX/V still having issues getting staff.

Engineers? already entering the country on special visa's, so I guess that will open up the spectre of cancelling the visa's as the purported shortage used to get the engineers into the country is apparently non existent.

Everyone else probably gets outsourced. Guess the existing wait time for call center response will just get better and better as a result (at least for the competitions case).

Condolences for all those that considered the iconic status of the company would give some stability to their lives, mostly for those that believed that in a time of globalisation that loyalty had any merit.

QF needs to compete, and management needs to ensure that it does; I, like many other observers am concerned that the facts presented surrounding the decisions of the management are rather economical with the truth and that the proposed plan by the management is incomprehensible in the light of the known facts of performance of the LCC's that have been started already in this experiment (An assertion by JAL management that J* adds competency is hardly something to be proud of... no offence to my friends at JAL, but damn.... Group Think methinks.... :eek:).

Removing all the emotion (which is hard, people are going to get hurt...) and coldly looking at the maths, the stated performance of the international division does not sit comfortably, nor does the emphatic position that the new LCC's in asia act in any way to change any fundamental condition of the group. (excluding bonuses to the management, or income to Orangestar leasing... where AJ is a director...).

For the engineers and pilots about to be cast into the diaspora, do ask around before choosing any of the contract agencies out there... there are some competent agencies, but that is not the norm, it is the exception. (web presence is hardly evidence of performance).

Alternatively, show some collective backbone and conduct an LBO. probably the last chance for QF to be a respected industry player.

[low_earth_orbit]

Exactly Worrals - Qantas should get on with it's core business of running a successful end-of-line carrier much as Air New Zealand have been doing since they almost went to the wall in 2001.

Too much of Alan Joyce's time in the last two years has been spent trying to find merger partners and other such deals and before him Geoff Dixon dropped his eyes off the ball to set up the near-disastrous APA bid. All this time Qantas has been allowed to wither on the vine. The staff know it and the public know it - only the public have voted with their feet.

In going to Asia with a greenfields operation we have another chapter in what is considered a smart business move by management and by some in the market. However in reality it's just another iteration of the same diversion from what should be the main game and that's running the existing airline with all it's valuable human capital and other capital to best level that it can be run at.

It's easier for AJ to set up a greenfields operation and to start with a clean sheet than to deal with the existing business in an imaginative and productive manner. That is the mark of a man with no ideas who is just re-running his Jetstar playbook line by line. JB is arguably doing the same at Virgin, but engagement of staff and investment in product works in the longer term!:ok:

Management argue that they can't afford to invest any longer in the international Qantas business until it improves it's return on the existing cost of capital - the death spiral has begun then because mainline needs investment now to compete. Reducing the size of the network will reduce market share which will in turn lead to lower revenue for the operation over and above what costs can be reduced in that time.

My prediction is that Jetstar Japan may survive on a marginal basis, but the Asian premium carrier will not be successful in the longer term. By then AJ will have parachuted away with his pot of gold and some of the Qantas employees here today will still have a job (...just). At that time someone new will have to come in and truly rebuild the brand. They might have to do it with an amendment of the Qantas sale act though that allows a major foreign partner to make an investment, because by then Qantas will have no funds left to work with. Of course the capital is there now to fix mainline but they won't do it. :(

[breakfastburrito]

Good post fdr, I have been saying it for quite some time, Qantas is being destroyed by management to justify its destruction.

Management have systematically & deliberately destroyed the longhaul business, in order to justify it moving the capital offshore to become the "Ryanair of Asia". This strategy appears to go back at least a decade. Note, managers are chasing growth, not profitability. They see somewhere near a 20% CAGR, which would see a doubling in size of the Asia operations every 3.5~ 4 years. The "paper profits" won't be returned to shareholders as dividends, rather re-invested in the business. This is an attempt to make it a growth story, straight out of the dot com playbook. They never have to actually payout the cash, the illusory profits are paper. In this way things can be hidden until the expansion stops. By that stage, the managers will have been long gone with their billions.

[TIMA9X]

Any program starting up in asia right now is going to have issues getting crew and engineering staff. If you look at China, the cost of manpower is now substantial, and there still is a large shortage, particularly in the...A320/737 (Korea is a special case; the revolving door of the airline is legendary, at any price. Korea competes with the sandpit in losing staff, and the associated cost of churn). Japan? yep, AJX/V still having issues getting staff.
and

QF needs to compete, and management needs to ensure that it does; I, like many other observers am concerned that the facts presented surrounding the decisions of the management are rather economical with the truth and that the proposed plan by the management is incomprehensible in the light of the known facts of performance of the LCC's that have been started already in this experiment (An assertion by JAL management that J* adds competency is hardly something to be proud of... no offence to my friends at JAL, but damn.... Group Think methinks.... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif). Yeah, great post FDR, as usual :ok:

In 2008, oil was $100 Aus a barrel. 2011 fin year average $75. but Joyce today continues to add fuel surcharges which is another one of his ways in damaging the Qantas brand.. but J* is always referred to by management as "the growth part of the group" funded by, you know who....Qantas.

[hotnhigh]

Anyone know the dates for qantas pulling out of the bkk and hkg-lhr routes? I'm sure it will coincide with a date a few weeks out from the olympics. :mad:

[Keg]

Bit earlier than that. Start of northern summer schedule so about April next year.

[Jack Ranga]

The Kangaroo Route was first flown by Qantas on 1 December 1947. A Lockheed Constellation ferried 29 passengers and 11 crew from Sydney to London, with stopovers in Darwin, Singapore, Calcutta (Kolkata), Karachi, Cairo and Tripoli (passengers would stay overnight in Singapore and Cairo). A return fare was £585, equivalent to 130 weeks average pay. Qantas changed the routing to variably include other interline stops, including Frankfurt, Zürich, Athens, Belgrade, Rome, Beirut, Tehran, Bombay and Colombo.

64 years of tradition wiped out by an innarticulate, bogan, Low Cost Card Carrying, non-Australian.

The Qantas Board, are you happy with the destruction of a once great airline? A pioneer of long haul flying? Now to be an off-shored employer of slave labour, a head office of convenience in Sydney administered by 'people' unable to innovate, adapt and to grow a product. The only answers you have are to slash and burn, cost cut and to destroy an iconic brand. A brand that most companies would kill for.

You are a disgrace the lot of you, no ethics, no values, no morals.

Greedy thieves, feathering your own nests at the expense of good hard working people. The caretakers of a brand, passed on from generation to generation.

I trusted you to deliver my child, an un-accompanied minor from the other side of the world. (And I might add, I was happy to pay a premium) It meant a lot to me to have my girl looked after by Australians, very experienced Australians, the best in the world.

Now..............? You can stick you 'vision.' The way of the future is it? Anybody can cost cut you fools. I have real empathy for the people & industry you are about to destroy.

[Ushuaia]

Unbelievable. That pretty much sums up the myopic thinking of Joyce et al: cut the services to London by 50% just THREE months before the 2012 Olympics....

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[ohallen]

I'll bet these idiots didn't even know the Olympics were on!!!

Hopefully this complete screw up will attract media and pollies attention and Bob Katter was planning to go and watch.

[600ft-lb]

Airline veteran Rod Eddington praises Joyce's 'bold move' | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/companies/airline-veteran-rod-eddington-praises-joyces-bold-move/story-fn91v9q3-1226117016042)

"It's a tough gig. But this is the best way to give it a go.
"If there's an easy place to do business in Asia, everyone would have piled into it some time ago.
"Good on Qantas for giving it a go, but you might not bet your pension that they'll be successful.
"It's one thing to have the capital; it's quite another to have people who can go in and set up on the ground in Asia, recruit the right local people there, compete with local companies, and be prosperous and profitable."
However, "most of the time our banks have got their fingers burnt when they've gone into the region", Sir Rod warned.
There were two ideas behind Qantas's move, he said. "First, it can't get a competitive cost base here in Australia that allows it to compete in Asia."
The core international routes probably lost about $200 million a year, but that was recouped several times over from the domestic market, "which makes it good money", he said.
The second driver was that "if you can't grow in Asia by taking your Australian business into there, the alternative is to set up in Asia and fly from there into Australia and elsewhere".
If the plan is so obvious from the outside perspective, it's a wonder the truth just won't be told in the first place. I like the last quote from Sir Rod
However, he issued a warning: "This will create the biggest dust-up with unions in some time."

[my oleo is extended]

Interesting to read that 255,280 Performance Rights to Shares for the benefit of Alan Joyce expired worthless on 8 July 2011 due to performance hurdles not being met.
Chicken feed. It's only a couple of hundred thousand bucks, and is mere collateral damage. Branson is no different. Between VB's launch and post float, he creamed $960 mil in under 5 years, most came off the back of AN's demise and Branson flogging his stake in an airline that came virtually free of charge. Branson has always kept a minor share, supposedly so as to show others 'hey, it is a valuable investment, see, I own part of it and I wouldnt do that if it were a lemon' ! All smoke and mirrors.
Back to the Leprechaun - his total take so far since joining the Roo is rumoured to be 20+ mil, so to sacrifice a few hundred thousand in crap shares is chump change. Besides, he can always add in a new form of KPI bonus, become director of another entity or start up operation of another QF branch, arm, leasing company, service provider or some other sneaky project...

AJ should read this however;
Qantas gets an earful from travel agent over failings | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/18/qantas-restructure-forgets-its-customers/)

[Mr.Buzzy]

Sums it up perfectly.
Couldn't be happier with your sad words Jack.:D
I'd go so far to say that many travellers will actively seek an alternative to what was once Australia's airline: QANTAS.
Homos calling the shots everywhere we turn. How on earth did it ever come to this????????????:ugh:


bzbzz

[Worrals in the wilds]

The media was all in favour of the takeover bid when it was first announced, too. Their initial reports on anything (aviation or otherwise) tend to parrot the press releases they've been sent, because it's much easier than actually having to write stuff. :rolleyes:

P.S. Good questions Fed Sec (just got a chance to read them) :ok:. I wonder if you'll get an answer...

[BuzzBox]

If Qantas international is having problems achieving a decent return on its invested capital, then why the hell did the airline buy the A380? This latest venture into Asia will only splinter the Qantas brand further and is doomed to fail.

They should instead focus on building up Qantas 'mainline' by:


Getting rid of the A380s and 744s. Smaller, more efficient aircraft such as the 777-300ER and the 787 would offer much more flexibility and allow the airline to fly profitably to more destinations.
Improving the product to compete with the likes of Singapore Airlines, Emirates & Etihad, etc.


As someone said earlier, if Air New Zealand can do it, why not Qantas? The biggest threat to Qantas is its own management, who are hell bent on destroying the Qantas brand.

[caneworm]

This was posted on the LAME EBA thread,
Barry Jackson seemed resigned to his fate on the radio yesterday, may as well go down fighting than go down quietly!

Can anyone elaborate, (or provide a link to the radio interview), on this?

[King William III]

The Federal MP's for Cook and Hughes…where ALOT of Pilots and ginger-beers live……have been VERY quiet since this happened.

Surely they should be asking the right questions for the future of THEIR constituents..

I urge you all to contact your local MP and demand his voice be heard.

Scott Morrison, MP for Cook
[email protected]

Craig Kelly, MP for Hughes
[email protected]

Please add other MP's emails…

TailWheel, perhaps we should make a MP contact sticky?

Cheers all,

KW

[billyt]

Maybe his next move will be CEO BA. Removing the competition before he gets there.

[mcgrath50]

Caneworm it was 2UE

Qantas to axe thousands of local jobs (http://www.2ue.com.au/blogs/2ue-blog/qantas-to-axe-thousands-of-local-jobs/20110816-1ivkq.html)

At 4:40

[craigieburn]

A mate of mine forwarded an email that he sent to Steve Price in response to his editorial piece in the Herald Sun today,

" Hi Steve, normally I am a massive fan. I say normally because I can't believe the stuff that I am hearing and reading from you regarding Qantas.
In your article this morning you state, "The problem for the airline is that Australians treat Qantas as their own. We don't expect to have to fly Jetstar when we want to fly Qantas. Our national carrier is the safest airline in the world and frequent flyers will tell you how comfortable they feel arriving at a foreign airport and seeing the kangaroo on that tail."
I believe that this hits on the head one of the main reasons for the demise of Qantas, the fact that we are seeing less red tails at airports that we want and need to visit, coupled with the fact that Qantas is gifting routes and modern equipment to Jetstar means that Qantas is making itself unprofitable.
I can't believe that if I want to fly Qantas internationally from Melbourne, I have no choice but to first go to Sydney and then be restricted to a very small number of international destinations.If I want to go to Paris, I am forced to endure going through Heathrow, sheer lunacy!
If Qantas were serious about reviving the international arm, surely they would expand the network, revitalise the fleet and actually spend some money advertising it.
It is not all about price, it is about convenience of destinations, convenience of departure point (ie Melbourne), comfort of the aircraft and spending as little time as possible in transit. Unfortunately Qantas has none of these key selling points. Mr Joyces announcements do nothing to address these failings, instead all he talks about is reducing costs. Any moron can reduce costs, it takes some spine and initiative to increase revenue.
My ultimate frustration though, is that it seems particularly hard to get a view from anyone with a position of power and respect (ie: you or Andrew Bolt) who does not seem to be toeing the Qantas PR department line. How can there be an objective view from Herald Sun journo's when the Qantas group spends an untold amount of money with full wrap around ad's?How do we, the general public, know that what we are hearing from media commentators such as yourself, is not tainted by the lure of membership to the Chairmans Lounge?
For years I have felt that as a middle aged Australian male, I have had no voice in mainstream media until you came back to Melbourne and MTR started up. I thought finally we had a voice that would pick through the inherent corruption and cronyism of not only our politicians, but big business as well.
Steve, please don't let us down. Next time that you have Mr Joyce on your program ask him some of the hard questions about his company.Ask him how a low cost carrier operating on low yield routes manages to be the "shining light" of the organisation. Ask him how much of the costs of the Qantas group are apportioned to Qantas International, even though the costs are incurred by other entities.
Ask him about his involvement as a director of a company that is making a fortune by leasing aircraft to the Qantas group. Ask him if they are deliberately running down our national icon to circumvent the Qantas Sale Act. Ask him if they are denigrating the company so that he and his cronies can buy it out and asset strip the carcass.
I have no vested interest here, I am a car salesman in the western suburbs of Melbourne who is simply disgusted by the web of lies and deceit being spun by those in charge of our national carrier.
I sincerely hope that you have not been lured into parroting the half truths of the Qantas PR machine by the lure of fancy memberships and cheap travel in the pointy end of the plane Steve.Please do some research on the questions that I have put to you and take up the battle on our behalf because I think that you will find a sordid tale of greed and corruption that if it is not stopped, will lead to the demise of a company that probably most represents everything that is good about our country,
Regards
Name Witheld"

Maybe more of those affected should bombard people like Price and Bolt et al and force them to ask some questions!

[TIMA9X]

Singapore wins Qantas Asia premium carrier base, probably | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/18/singapore-looks-more-likely-as-qantas-base-for-its-planned-asia-premium-narrow-body-venture/)
Singapore looks more likely as Qantas base for its planned Asia premium narrow body venture

August 18, 2011 – 5:10 pm, by Ben Sandilands (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/author/bensandilands/)

An application this afternoon by Qantas to Australia’s International Air Services Commission to apply its QF code to no less than the equivalent of 14 Boeing 747s weekly on Jetstar Asia services between Singapore and Thailand makes it likely that Singapore will become the base for its planned Asia based and as yet unnamed premium narrow body carrier.
It is the sort of thing an airline would logically do at any base where it was planning to expand an existing presence. The application can be seen as Qantas ensuring that it has lined up as much by way of transferable code authorisations as it can before it makes an announcement.
The code authorisations sought by Qantas would cover the four return flights a day that Singapore based Jetstar Asia currently flies to Bangkok and Penang in 180 seat A320s.
If Singapore becomes the base for the premium venture based on the same jet, but no doubt configured with much fewer seats, it would be implausible for the IASC to decline to transfer some of those code share designations from Jetstar Asia to the new carrier.
According to Singapore sources all of Jetstar Asia’s flights throughout the region will soon have a QF flight number applied to them, making the network visible and readily bookable on Qantas.com and one of the announced purposes of this new carrier is to provide new business for Qantas by connecting to its Asia gateways, which include Singapore and Bangkok.
Whether or not there is another explanation for the move, the application underscores the size of the Qantas group investment in Changi airport, where it already bases Australian registered Jetstar A330-200s as well as the Singapore flag carrier Jetstar Asia which uses A320s.
Interesting, just a thought, I wonder if GD has anything to do with the purchase/leasing of these aircraft?

[UPPERLOBE]

TIMA9X, just another thought...

Is BA just holding the handbag for a moment (SIN & BKK - LHR) and will the dance resume once J*asia is fully identified as QF?

[Terrey]

Corporate Psychopaths

http://mtpinnacle.com/pdfs/Psychopath.pdf

Is Your Boss a Psychopath? | Fast Company (http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/96/open_boss.html)

Interesting read.
Well know apparently!

[TIMA9X]

Is BA just holding the handbag for a moment (SIN & BKK - LHR) and will the dance resume once J*asia is fully identified as QF? Yeah, BA left holding the handbag alright, until AJ gets a brainstorm and schedules a J* 744 flight for an early morning arrival in SIN. AJ would sell it as "a convenient connection for passengers," they would have all day to collect their bags to recheck-in for that evenings BA flight to LHR. Of course there would be an option (say, The Starbag option) for all J* passengers, $100 per bag and they will be automatically be transferred for you including a bonus muffin per bag checked in. :{ (for me, that's AJ's mentatality)

Seriously, Willie Walsh at BA Willie Walsh (Irish businessman) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Walsh_%28Irish_businessman%29) must be thinking (like Kerry Packer did with Alan Bond once), you only get one "Alan Joyce in your business life" After all these years Qantas spent flying the famous Kangaroo route they are going to hand half of it over to us! Some have said on here that it is not good to be emotional when making business decisions. I say in this case, it's hard not to be emotional with what AJ announced last Tuesday, it p*ssed me off!

What is the Qantas board thinking? They are allowing this Irish numbskull (with no apparent people skills) to wreak havoc with the Qantas brand that many of you on here have dedicated your life to keep this once iconic brand alive and well, considering all the unnecessary stress these current managers have heaped upon you all because they made poor decisions that they will not own up to! In airline terms Qantas has been badly managed for the past ten years because it did not invest in the right equipment, (poor capital management) but only last Tuesday night on the 7.30 report AJ could only bang on about upgrading lounges in LAX SIN etc. What's the point if the passengers have to endure traveling on tired equipment between upgraded airport lounges which only a fifth of the passengers flown use at best!

RIa-bpPs1Fo

Ok, I don't work for Qantas but know a few people who do and I come from a strong aviation family so I suppose I am an outsider on here, but hell I support you all, It does my head in to see what these managers are doing to you, by making 1000 people redundant is effectively displacing 4000 family members in one foul swoop.

I know what that is like, I was living in Thailand when virtually over night the political situation turned for the worst and I had to get out. With my young family (suddenly my and the wife's jobs had disappeared over night) we boarded QF 2 for Australia after 17 years living out of Oz. I was surprised that day how the old QF I knew for over 30 years just wasn't the same. Something wasn't quite right. After the meal service when everything settled down I got talking to a FA. To cut a long story short it took about 30 seconds before he mentioned that name, Alan Joyce, which has haunted me ever since I have been back in Australia.

Forgive me for sharing this with you all, but I felt it was time for me to let out my reasons why I have probably spent too much time on pprune the past nine months. It is because the staff at Qantas have done nothing wrong, it is the management who are wrong. My mates who help me with the videos, music etc all believe in one thing, we don't want to see good families displaced because of poor management decisions.

Telling the truth appears to be foreign to this CEO who resides at Q, not for me.

Rant over, stay strong guys:ok:

[DEFCON4]

This post is in no way intended to support or condone the revelations made by Allan Joyce in the last few days.
What is happening to Qantas was begun by Strong,perpetuated by Dixon and put on steroids by Leigh Clifford.
When Dixon left with his tail between his legs (and a lot of money)most of his executive cronies left soon after.Who or what was left to continue down Dixon's path of Qantas destruction?The Qantas board is the only constant.Joyce is nothing more than a compliant messenger.Leigh Clifford also has an agenda.He is a right wing,anti union narcissist who was deeply upset by the destruction of Work Choices.
Lets be clear no one in management is capable of original thought or long term planning.The future of Qantas has been mapped out by Oldmeadow and Boston consulting and rubber stamped by Cliffird and the board.Lesley Grant's so called task force was and is a farce.Consultants made most of the suggestions during these meetings while Grant and her coterie merely muttered and nodded their heads in agreement.
Having met Joyce on several occasions I found him to be a pleasant nervous little man with a tendency to be nerdy.He has been mentored most of his adult life and is surprisingly a little idealistic and naive.It has been mentioned before but he is compliant.As is evidenced by his media presentations he is nervous and uncomfortable in the spotlight.He is not by any measure a strong or forceful personality.Next to Clifford he is little more than a garden gnome.
The point of all this is that Joyce is nothing more than patsy who is doing the dirty work of the board and Clifford.There is very little invective directed toward the board or Clifford.Joyce is copping the flak.
Whatever the outcome Joyce will eventually disappear back to Ireland.He is not Australian.He does not have the same connection to Qantas that we do.When he leaves he will take the blame with him .The board and Clifford will come out smelling like roses.It is for these reasons that I believe that all attention should be directed to the board.They are the people who should be held accountable.They have signed off on this.They should be brought out into the light of public scrutiny and questioned at length.
Joyce is nothing more than a puppet patsy being manipulated by Clifford and the board
The board have names.The media and unions should direct their questions to them and bypass Joyce completely.
The boards plan for Qantas will fail.Something needs to be done now or Qantas will disappear and a long tradition of excellence in Australian aviation will die with it

[The The]

The share price - that's what the market think of the board, senior management and strategic direction
Engagement levels - that's what the staff think of the board, senior management and strategic direction
Market share - that's what the customers think of the board, senior management and strategic direction

43% reduction in brand value, plummeting skytrax rating, shrinking network, nonviable fleet - that is the RESULTs of the board, senior management and strategic direction.

And the answer is - $500m investment in a muffin franchise!! Exactly who is in cloud cuckoo land?

The board and management have to go!

[ohallen]

DEFCON you are correct of course, but also don't forget the others on the Board who have allowed this process to evolve, they have either been compliant or complicit and either way they are culpable.

Lets us hope that their involvement in these disgraceful events follows them wherever they next sit at the table and absorb the corporate largesse.

How would you like to sit next to any of them at a progressive and responsible corporate entity and wonder what they are thinking or planning to do next? The word contagion comes to mind.

It is far too much a stretch of the imagination that they will ever personally reflect on their roles and accept some responsibility unless they are dragged into Court and held accountable.

Make no mistake they would have been advised of the strategy, the way it was to be engineered and the actual financial performance and there are only so many times they can say "I don't recall" before their own credibility will be brought into question.

I suspect this game is nearly over (sadly) as all have been suckered into a phoney dispute which has concealed the true agenda which was suspected but is now out there for all to see.

Many families have and will be affected by all of this but how the hell are they ever going to manage this company going forward|? They may have got rid of 1,000 (if that is the true number which I doubt) but don't forget there are some 34,000 who will remain for the short term, probably 30,000 who are not managers, all of whom will now operate in an environment of venom and mistrust and likely most will wage their own "war of one" in their own subtle way.

I cannot fathom this having a nice ending for anyone.

[DEFCON4]

The pasengers will lose though poor service and escalating airfares.
The shareholders will lose through destruction of equity value.
The workforce will lose.Some their jobs and others there dignity
Qantas will lose because many of of the remaining workforce will be even further disengaged.
Australia loses because its tradition of Aviation safety and excellence will die.
The Board and Senior Management will win.When this thing fails it will be Golden Parachutes for them and no accountability.It appears that in this world that justice has become non existant

[Barry Mundy]

The person who comes out of this with the worst reputation is General Cosgrove. The person i and many others followed into East Timor in late 1999 as part of INTERFET was visionary , the person who lead from the front , inspired troops, mixed openly with the troops, stood up for the troops and called us family IS NOT the current person who sits on the Board. He has abandoned his troops, does not inspire them, does not mix with them. I once was inspired and ma now bitterly disappointed in the man he has now become.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Have heard that 2 board members stormed out of the last meeting disgusted with these plans. I hope Peter was one of them.

The truth will eventually catch up with all of them. I hope the 2 break rank early and expose the truth behind the great big fat lie.

[OneDotLow]

I say this with full respect to General Peter Cosgrove's previous career in the Armed Forces.

We can all hope he was one of the one's who 'stormed out in disgust', but by his lack of publicly expressed disgust for these plans, he is every bit as evil as the rest of them sitting there on the QF Board.

[my oleo is extended]

We can all hope he was one of the one's who 'stormed out in disgust', but by his lack of publicly expressed disgust for these plans, he is every bit as evil as the rest of them sitting there on the QF Board. Sadly I do not believe that PC is on the board because he 'likes to exercise leadership and fairness for the QF troops'. Board or executive positions are occupied for one reason and one reason only - to make the individueal extremely wealthy'. So sorry folks, just because he held a noble position in the past does not mean that he, or anyone else for that matter, is not in it for personal greed. That is a reality. In fact in my opinion is that in line with QF's direction, arrogance and ignorance towards workers (yes, workers are human beings don't forget), every day he remains on the board damages any reputation he has built up over decades for integrity, loyalty and Australianism. Money wins above moral correctness it appears.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Good point Defcon, Joyce may be just a patsy. The Board are certainly lying low in the media at present and leaving him to cop the flak. Team players, obviously :hmm:.
As for General Cosgrove, did he every have much business experience? I thought he was 100% career Army Officer.
Qantas Board of Directors
Leigh Clifford, AO (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/board-of-directors/global/en#jump0)
Alan Joyce (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/board-of-directors/global/en#jump1)
General Peter Cosgrove, AC, MC (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/board-of-directors/global/en#jump2)
Patricia Cross (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/board-of-directors/global/en#jump3)
Richard Goodmanson (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/board-of-directors/global/en#jump4)
Garry Hounsell (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/board-of-directors/global/en#jump5)
Corinne Namblard (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/board-of-directors/global/en#jump6)
Paul Rayner (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/board-of-directors/global/en#jump7)
Dr John Schubert, AO (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/board-of-directors/global/en#jump8)
James Strong, AO (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/board-of-directors/global/en#jump9)
Barbara Ward, AM (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/board-of-directors/global/en#jump10)

[ohallen]

Lets not reserve the judgment for one, there is plenty of grief to go around and ALL are accountable.

People talk about "one voice" and the need for "Board unity" but it is difficult to reconcile the Generals well espoused views with the current situation UNLESS he was one of the ones to walk from that Board meeting. It is about personal integrity and given his long career I would not have thought some pittance of a directors fee would equal a lifetime of integrity building.

Most Directors I would suggest do it for the power and ego and that raises other issues as we have all seen other cases where ego was not matched by intellect.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Not one of them has ever worked as an operational airline employee.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Not one of them has ever worked as an operational airline employee.

Looking at the biogs, barring Cos not one of them has worked as an operational employee anywhere. Have any of them worked at all? :}

Seriously we have: two lawyers, 2 executive engineers and four beancounters, one airline (Joyce) and one Army (Cos). There aren't even any experienced transport industry execs, let alone aviation ones. Board airline knowledge is presumably limited to finding the Qantas Club and working out how to recline a first class seat without spilling the Grange everywhere. :ugh:

[my oleo is extended]

People talk about "one voice" and the need for "Board unity" but it is difficult to reconcile the Generals well espoused views with the current situation UNLESS he was one of the ones to walk from that Board meeting. It is about personal integrity and given his long career I would not have thought some pittance of a directors fee would equal a lifetime of integrity building.
Sorry, I disagree. I am a very big fan of the General's past, make no mistake. But firstly, there is no 'pittance' director's fee's'. There is a large financial nest they have access to, in several ways, and I assure you that none perform the role out of love or duty. As for allegations of people walking out of the board meeting, that receives little respect from me. Resignation from the board will re-install my faith in the General. And as for other comments I too agree that running the armed forces is not the same as running an airlines finances. Nonetheless some facts remain consistent within corporations or government departments - the board makes the decisions which are then delivered by a footstool CEO. The entire board are responsible for the actions undertaken at QF, so yes, all board members should be well scrutinized by the share holder, public, and media.

The only 2 members of QF in recent years to have a measure of worth or decency, or even a brain were Borghetti and Storie, both of whom bailed the S.S Qantas. They could foresee that there were icebergs on the horizon, unlike the other tools who have sailed the ship straight into iceberg central.

Abandon ship, abandon ship, whoop whoop, grab your life jackets, executives and nupty's last, abandon ship anbandon ship, whoop whoop...

[Mstr Caution]

The passengers still call Australia home - but does Qantas? (http://theconversation.edu.au/the-passengers-still-call-australia-home-but-does-qantas-2953)


Recently, my husband and I flew to Wellington on Qantas and realised very quickly that it was a Qantas flight in name only.
There were no Aussie accents among the staff and some of the accents over the intercom were so thick none of the passengers knew what was being said.
Oddly, this pseudo-Qantas made me feel slightly unsafe and I don’t usually feel unsettled on airlines from other countries. I think it was because I had bought one thing but been sold another, and when we feel deceived we lose confidence.
No doubt, financial realities may dictate that some routes are outsourced to other organisations, but Qantas needs to understand that the ripple effect of this can be wide, unpredictable and have serious, long-term impact on the brand.

The punters have already woken up to other "entities" operating Qantas branded flights & don't approve.

New board, new CEO, new vision, new strategy. Show these clowns the door.:yuk:

[Take five]

WE ARE THE BLIND :cool: LED BY THE USELESS :zzz: CONTROLLED BY THE INCOMPETENT :} :zzz: :E :suspect:

Every one of the managers who you directly report to, is in line for the chop.

They claim they know nothing about the future of the business and are only conveying the edicts of the people above them.

Ask any of them if they have a five year plan for their respective areas.

I already know the answer you will get.

This to me puts them in a very precarious position.

They are not willing to take a stand against the spiral downwards of Qantas in the future.

They are not managers in any sense of the word, because to manage, they must be aware and respond to what is happening around them, not just throw their hands up in the air, say they don't know what is going on, and submit to what they have been brainwashed into, what they think is, inevitable.

This is happening everywhere in Qantas at the moment.

We are blind, because we have been kept in the dark for so long about the future of Qantas.

We are being led by useless Managers who do not, and are incapable of, Management.

We are being controlled by an incompetent Board who are well out of their depth in the basic decision making which should make our company prosper and flourish.

I call on the Spirit of Qantas Past to help us now.

That is about the only thing which will save our company from the current spate of greed and megalomania.

[Mr Leslie Chow]

Does Gen Cosgrove have an email or mail contact publicly available? I searched but no luck.

Having seen the way he has conducted himself in the past, I am sure that he would certainly have some concerns on where things are heading.

And the pay cheque could not be that big!

[Mstr Caution]

AJ sure is one smart cookie. Not !

KGB: Alan Joyce | Kohler, Gottliebsen, Bartholomeusz | Interview | Business Spectator (http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/KGB-Alan-Joyce-Qantas-Jetstar-international-domest-pd20110818-KU7EX?OpenDocument&src=mp)


Robert Gottliebsen: Alan, I ran into an international airline CEO just the other day and I asked him what he thought of your strategies and he said you’re making three mistakes. First, with Jetstar, he said you are not allocating your capital costs correctly because it’s spinning, it’s coming off the back of a Qantas big ordering. Secondly, he said you’re not factoring in the enormous benefit that local airlines get from the feeder, from the overseas; that you can’t just look at overseas airlines on its own, you’ve got look at the totality. And thirdly, his advice was never take on the pilots.

AJ: Well first of all, on the Jetstar comment, I think there have been a lot of conspiracy theories around from a number of different people that we’re not representing the true performance of Jetstar. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have an obligation, and the board has an obligation, to make sure that we’re disclosing appropriate results and not misleading the market in any way. We also have our auditors who have looked and continue to look at our books and have their obligations. So we’re very comfortable with the reporting that we’re making of the various segments.

[UPPERLOBE]

A thought for Qantas middle management lemmings to ponder, the lemmings go over the cliff without parachutes while the keepers of the lemmings will have big fat juicy golden ones. :eek:

[teresa green]

MLC, I am trying to get in touch with Cosgrove, no email available that I can find, but we share the same school (Waverley College) and as we are both old boys, I am going to try and find him thru the old boys union. I intend to put the concerns that most of us share to him and why. To look at that board, to see not ONE technical person on it, makes you wish for the days when all airline boards contained at least one senior Engineer and one senior Pilot. That lot could be on the board of a company selling jam tin labels, and not know the difference. Just a big wa%k for those people, though at least Cosgrove has some idea of reality, more than most I suspect.

[unionist1974]

ALEA Fed Sec , perhaps you would like to share youur qualifications to run a business . A tradesman with a licence ? or would you orefer to put up your record running your small Association . How are your financials for this last year ? I hear you ran at a loss , quite a substantial one on your turnover . Thank God you are not running Qantas or any airline , people in glass housesw comes to mind . But Qantas is proffitable old chum , how long befor you bail out on your mates for a political job? ALAEA , never has been never will be a Union .

[Q-Ball]

Abandoning Oz will not reverse the fortunes of 'Ocker Airways'

Qantas is on the cusp of at best reverting to a purely domestic airline or at worst going broke. The current CEO, Alan Joyce, was handed a poison chalice when he took on the job.

Faced with falling revenues, despite monopoly or duopoly rights on most long-haul routes, the previous CEO, Geoff Dixon, sought to bully staff, shareholders and the travelling public into accepting a deal that would have seen a leveraged buyout of the airline. A buyout that would have seen the airline go offshore to Shanghai or Beijing.

The deal was a product of the over-heated financial markets, pre-GFC. It was proposed at the height of the private equity boom. Some saw the deal as smoke and mirrors, but clearly not Dixon and the board of Qantas, many of whom are still serving.

The proposed arrangement collapsed, allegedly because a US-based hedge fund manager failed to submit his acceptance in time. Analysts claim that had the deal gone ahead Qantas would have collapsed in 2009 under the weight of debt and a collapsing cash flow.

Announcing another smoke and mirrors deal Joyce has told the market and customers that Qantas is still labouring under debt and that the dubious proposals announced to move offshore will clear this problem for shareholders.

Really! It is unlikely that abandoning Australia will reverse the fortunes of Qantas. Where is the money coming from to fund the offshore airline based somewhere in the region with, we are told, a proposal to buy new aircraft?

Joyce could talk the leg off an iron pot. The blarney flows without the apparent interruption or check of intellect. Joyce gives off an air of desperation; the need to create the impression of future success. Is this being done so that he can apply for other corporate opportunities?

Qantas is in a tail spin and no-one is giving the crew clear instructions as to what is going on, what they should do or what they might be able to do to help avoid a prang.

Retired General Cosgrove is on the board. Surely he appreciates the need to look after the troops, keep them fully informed and maintain morale if the airline is to deliver the standard of service expected. After all it has been the staff of Qantas that has maintained the brand and the faith of the travelling Australian public in the airline.

I started flying commercially in the 1950s, first on DC 3's then DC 4's, Viscount's, DC 6B's, and so on. In flight service was service; nothing very flash, but pleasant and courteous.

Subsequently I would have flown around a million kilometres or more on a range of airlines, many no longer operating. I flew into Afghanistan in the 1980s when Indian Airlines flew on a wing tip from 6,000 metres to the ground in order to avoid stinger missiles and I flew in Africa when aircraft safety standards were not as high as they are today.

About four years ago I decided that I would not fly Qantas again, on grounds of safety and service.

I think what I resented was the false familiarity, increasingly engaged in by some cabin staff. The egalitarian branding of service, that gradually morphed into an attitude that cabin staff were doing a favour by merely doing their job.

Recently I had to break my rule and travelled to Hong Kong on Qantas. I took a jacket with me on board. I asked if I could hang it and was told the hanging space was full. I scrunched it into an overhead locker. On arrival I watched what came out of the coat locker and, yes, they were jackets that the crew laid claim to. The crew on the outwards flight seemed tired and some clearly lacked training in the art of service.

The return flight was no better. The male cabin staff appeared to have come straight out of a shearing shed. Brusqueness coupled with a real or assumed ockerism was apparently de rigueur.

Down the aisle went the gun shearer calling out to no-one in particular "Chinese tea anyone, Chinese tea", yeah, well no thanks mate.

At the end of the flight I gave the bruiser a wan smile and a nod and he looked straight through me. I guess that is fair enough, I was travelling stock class and that was how I had been made to feel; just a dumb sheep on a transporter.

I don't blame the staff or crews. Clearly there is a lack of leadership on the part of the board and senior management. I was in the army myself. Crew morale is poor, it needs lifting; clear guidelines, a sense of direction and maintenance of proper standards of service and behaviour would help.

Qantas clearly has some people of ability. Captain Richard de Crespigny demonstrated this when he saved 466 people in November 2010 on an A380 flight. The No. 2 engine spectacularly failed over the Indonesian island of Batam causing damage to the nacelle, wing, fuel system, landing gear and flight controls. Passengers were fulsome in their praise of the Captain and the manner in which the crew handled the crisis.

No doubt human talent and skills are still to be found amongst Qantas employees, but they are being poorly handled. They constitute the biggest asset Qantas has and they are being treated worse than some of their passengers.

Rather than allowing Joyce's flights of fancy to turn Qantas into a memory, a quavering chimera out at Longreach, the board should pull themselves together and axe him. There are other people available with the talent, not only to run the airline, but to turn its fortunes around on shore.

Bruce Haigh is a retired diplomat and political commentator.

Abandoning Oz will not reverse the fortunes of 'Ocker Airways' - The Drum Opinion (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2845790.html#)

[Ka.Boom]

The common thread within the board is they are all linked through Allco,Ansett or Rio Tinto.They are on the Qantas board purely through their relationships with each other.Not because of their Aviation expertise or business acumen.
Each directorship with each company earns them around $200k/p.a.Three directorships earns them $600k.Not bad for doing nothing but attend remuneration committee meetings.These people determine our future and the future of one of the last Australian icons.As DF4 suggests they should be pursued for what borders on clinical culpable stupidity

[indamiddle]

since the announcement on tuesday about the only info left for clifford to release (via joyce) on 24 august is the name of the new airline and its base.
330 qal flight attendants taking the VCR package, probably 80-90 qcca f/a's to be employed initially to cover shortage created by the crew leaving, another 200 qcca to come with the delivery of the last 2 380's.
around 180-190 lames out the door
any numbers on pilot reductions?
bugger, forgot a 380 being delivered next week. chuck in another 80 qcca employed to cover that. 80-90+200+80= 360-370. more than covers 330 qal out the door.

[dragon man]

Dont know if this is the thread for this post but has anyone noticed the lack of Jetstar advertisments in the SMH this week. Could it be that they are not happy with what is been said about them?