AUGUST 24th - QANTAS

[Capt Colonial]

Indamiddle (http://www.pprune.org/members/120273-indamiddle)

Well, Initial figures are quoting about 180 Pilots. Nevertheless it will be worse as the shrinkage continues.....
As 180 Pilots leave the bottom of the lists, the next 180 or so seeing their fate rolling towards them like a filthy freight train will nevertheless look towards greener pastures as well.
The LWOP currently offered (as opposed to those in 1989) by corporate Qantas management are archaic and when fully comprehended would more than likely prevent a return to QANTAS Mainline if it still exists!
This is the next travesty and charade of Qantas corporate as they are now also attempting to avoid suitable retrenchment payouts and any compassion or assistance to these Pilot professionals.

[FlareArmed]

We can all hope he was one of the one's who 'stormed out in disgust', but by his lack of publicly expressed disgust for these plans, he is every bit as evil as the rest of them sitting there on the QF Board.

I've had dealings with Cosgrove when he was Chief of Defence Force. He is a good man, IMHO.

It would be a big step for any board member to hang out the dirty laundry in public. I suspect he is not a happy camper in the boardroom, particularly if he still has affinity with the troops. His lack of public expression doesn't necessarily make him evil; just discrete.

Public airing is not the way of his background, nor his style; he had plenty of opportunity if he chose to do so with some of the government decisions he had to endure as CDF.

[AlphaLord]

His lack of public expression doesn't necessarily make him evil; just discrete.

May I suggest that now is not the time to be discrete

[Mr Leslie Chow]

Thanks Teresa for the info.

Does anyone know if the 24 Aug day of infamy is a day where investors can be at? When is the next AGM?

That would be a very interesting day for all concerned.

On a seperat point one long term question to be answered is how the heck is AJ ever going to build trust with staff when he refers to AIPA (and by proxy) pilots the disrespectful names that he has.

Why is it so hard for companies to value their staff? I will never get it.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Motion to overthrow Qantas Board about to be circulated. Needs 100 shareholders to return by Thursday. Standby for emails from your respective unions but remember this -

Qantas only have one locked bag. Lets make it clear that they should have ordered a dozen.

cheers

[fdr]

Quality, quality, quality: never waver from it, even when you don't see how you can afford to keep it up. When you compromise, you become a commodity and then you die.

— Gary Hirshberg


thought for the day.

WRT shareholder call for the resignation of the board.... 100? almost all QFA staff have shares... surely that should not be an issue to arrange. If it is, that would be a concern.

[QF22]

Good luck Steve do you have the support of the big institutions though?

[clotted]

I suspect Steve has problems with the math or he is running the emotional line.
If every Qantas employee with shares plus every sympathiser signs up and turns up to the required meeting and votes to oust the board, on a one share one vote basis it won't even be close. If anyone thinks that the Qantas side doesn't have the majority shareholders on side in this, they are dreaming. That's the problem here: all the emotional B/S is not balanced by a pragmatic assessment of the reality!

[DrPepz]

If anyone received today's Business Spectator online, there was a comprehensive interview with Alan Joyce.

He said that the new Asia-based premium carrier's A320s with lie-flatbeds in business class and an economy class that is better than the A380 economy seats, giving the planes a “corporate jet” feel.

I nearly fell off my chair laughing. Anyone remembers OzJet?

The most important thing for business travellers is frequency. Jetstar Asia’s 3 daily flights to Jakarta cannot compete with SQ’s 8. Neither can their double daily services to Hong Kong compete with SQ’s and CX’s 7 each. A three daily service on a low density A320 will not get you corporate customers out of Singapore, QF. Plus who needs your lie-flat beds for 90 min hops to Jakarta or 2 hour hops to Bangkok?

Good luck QF. Putting a better product in the new Asian carrier’s A320 than your longhaul A380 product. Good heavens.

[TIMA9X]

Qantas cops heat on Asian push (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8287740)


Qantas cops heat on Asian push

BHP Billiton, Westfield, Billabong, News Corporation.
These are homegrown success stories which have spread their wings into overseas markets, bringing back lucrative profits thanks, in part, to Asia's burgeoning middle class.

Their achievements have been celebrated by both the person on the street and in the corridors of power.

But the reaction to Qantas Airways heading down the same path - by setting up new Asian ventures and grabbing a slice of the world's fastest-growing aviation market - has been largely negative.
Unions said Qantas was culling the Flying Kangaroo, while politicians shouted down management for sending jobs offshore and damaging an Australian icon.
Dick Smith, a former chairman of the Civil Aviation Authority, says the reaction shows a failure to realise things have changed from the days when Australia had just two airlines and ticket prices were heavily regulated.
He says those running Qantas should be congratulated for at least trying to save the airline's international arm, given the difficulty of the task due to fierce competition and the lower costs of its rivals.
"The fact it is being attacked is just unbelievable," Mr Smith says.

"Everyone buys our companies and we hardly have anything overseas, but we do have ANZ Bank, we do have the Lowy family with Westfield, so there is a few.
"So if Qantas is going to do that, fantastic."
Qantas started off in 1920 as a single airline flying across outback Queensland and the Northern Territory.
It has grown into a collection of operating businesses in Australia, New Zealand, Singapore and Vietnam, which Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce says should be a source of pride for all Australians.

Mr Joyce likens the airline's plans to BHP Billiton operating mines in South Africa or South America, or ANZ running banks in Asia.
If he has his way, two more dots on the map will be added to what is now called the Qantas Group.

In partnership with Japan Airlines and Mitsubishi Corporation, Qantas will set up a new, low-cost carrier in the Land of the Rising Sun called Jetstar Japan.
It also plans to establish a new premium, full-service airline in Asia, with Singapore or Kuala Lumpur regarded as the two most likely locations.
Mr Joyce says these new businesses are key to the survival of its international arm and will protect Qantas's Australian-based workforce.

CBA Institutional Equities transport analysts Matt Crowe and Andre Fromyhr say the new premium carrier, which won't use the Qantas name, is a bold move.
"In effect, Qantas Group is sacrificing its brand for a more competitive cost base," the pair said in a research note dated August 16.
"We believe a competitive cost base will prove more valuable than the Qantas brand."

Australian School of Business brand management lecturer Dean Wilkie says part of the negative reaction is the decision not to use the name Qantas.
"That's probably a sign of current directors not loving the brand as much as what we love what the Qantas brand is," Mr Wilkie says.
As part of the five-year plan to turnaround Qantas' loss-making international operations, Mr Joyce also flagged 1,000 jobs in Australia would go from the airline's pilot, cabin crew, engineering and management ranks.

The redundancies added further fuel to the argument Qantas is "offshoring" jobs, sacking Australian workers and employing Asian-based staff on lower wages and conditions.
Mr Joyce denied the claims, saying the national carrier's plan to cut flights to London, defer Airbus A380 deliveries and retire old aircraft were behind the job losses.

The Australian Council of Trade Unions described the job loss announcement and restructuring plans as one of Qantas's darkest days.
However, official figures paint a bleak picture of Qantas's steady decline in terms of market share.

The national carrier in 1999/00 had 34.4 per cent of the market of passengers heading into and out of Australia, but that had fallen to 19.5 per cent by 2010.
Mr Joyce says Qantas's share of the Asian international market has "collapsed" to 14 per cent.
More than four out of five passengers, or 82 out of every 100, heading overseas now choose to fly with a Qantas rival, he says.
So is the secret to regaining that share by cutting routes and taking planes out of the sky?

Mr Joyce says there's little other choice, given Qantas International is tipped to lose $200 million in 2010/11.
He says the airline remains one of a handful of carriers that fly to all continents except Antarctica.
He's also adamant Qantas still has ambition to fly to as many destinations as possible on its own metal - industry speak for using its own planes rather codeshare with other carriers.
"We still have with our own aircraft, a bigger network that most other airlines around the world do."

But ceding ground to competitors such as Thai Airways, Cathay Pacific and Virgin Atlantic by pulling out of London-Bangkok and London-Hong Kong has done little to suggest Qantas's route network will grow any time soon.
One travel agent said this week the airline was just not flying to enough places people wanted to go to, particularly in Europe.
"In the last 10 years they have taken away all the major routes like Rome and Paris and for us as a travel agent we don't have much option other than to sell Singapore Airlines and Emirates," the travel agent, "Marie", told Brisbane radio station 4BC on Thursday.


"Most people don't want to go via London to get to those other destinations."
Qantas, which is due to release its financial results on Wednesday, has forecast full year underlying profit before tax of between $500 million and $550 million for 2010/11 my boldingIs someone paying Dick Smith? He should stick to selling tasteless natural peanut butter and breakfast cereal (100% Australian made) which only seems to sell in my Supermarket when it is half price. :E

Only three days after that announcement "the market liked" (Q shares today closing today @ $1.45, about 14 cents down on what the market liked last Tuesday) Dick is supporting offshoring Australian jobs but when his peanut butter or bush tucker breakfast cereal is concerned it's 100% Australian made, Go figure......


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-MKApywhMArQ/Tk5OXyr4EzI/AAAAAAAABLw/pNav2W-PlY0/s640/DICK_SMITH_two-hands.jpg


I believe people are seeing through the huge advertising spend Qantas has produced this week supporting that announcement. This is encouraging, AJ will have to be quick on his feet next week when he announces the group profit results and then doing the usual rounds of the media business programs. 7.30 Report & Lateline should be a cracker next week... In effect, AJ may have kicked an own goal by pulling that surprise announcement last Tuesday as the media have had a whole week to come up with some pretty hard questions.


.

[Quill Shaft]

This hypocrite is unbelievable. I used to look up to this guy. He has obviously sold his soul.

I for one will never buy another Dick Smith product or buy from a Dick Smith store ever again :=

[TIMA9X]

This hypocrite is unbelievable. I used to look up to this guy. He has obviously sold his soul.

Yep, he did, Dick Smith Electronics is Woolworths which leads us to Jimmy "Bow Tie" Strong, on the Woolworths board who also just happens to be on the Q board.... hmmm the plot thickens.:eek:

[indamiddle]

a lot less if you work out the numbers!
1000 staff to go from pilots, cabin crew, engineers and management
180 pilots
330 cabin crew
180 engineers
total 690
must be 310 managers on the way out.
i bet they are not sleeping well

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Some info you may be interested in.


URGENT NOTICE TO ALL QANTAS SHAREHOLDERS (http://www.alaea.asn.au/news/288-urgent-notice-to-all-qantas-shareholders.html)


cheers

[TIMA9X]

0RaFYhp_A30

Lateline 17-08-11
Great stuff, I saved this for last, with all the down moments we all have suffered this week, the ABC got it right by putting Tony Jones onto the Qantas story. Kudos to them for doing so, TJ revels in this stuff. And hey don't you love what Bob K says at the end? Comment of the week IMHO. Steve P got a great punch in as well, in fact all parties did except AJ himself.

The heats on next week, should be an interesting week. A must watch if you haven't seen it but good to see again now this working week has passed. Have a great weekend all.

[SOPS]

All I can say is....WOW!!!!!::D

Cant wait for next week.

[Angle of Attack]

Forget next week, Joyce is on the Slippery Slide and I am sitting back and watching him slide! Its gold!

[ejectx3]

There is a god...Or a glimmer of hope at least

[mikk_13]

Does the boss at Q really think he is going to walk into China. I mean look at the size of some of the chinese players.

China Southern- 422acft
China eastern- 266acft
hainan- 112
Air china- 260

I'm sure the communist party is going to let skippy walk strait in. Good thing they will find plenty of buyers for the 100 or so A320s that will soon be for sale.

I always wonder if there is somewhere else they could stop on the way to europe so they could fly with smaller equipment. Surely a HGW A330 could get from BKK to at least EDDB, Moscow, Ams. Air berlin fly EDDL to Bkk and I am sure they fly with quite dense seating. So why the hell does Q not Get a flight to Berlin a few times a week. I mean there are heaps of destinations that I am sure you could make work.

Any why would Air berlin be a good choice for an alliance member for Q. Not having a dig, but they are like the Virgin Blue of germany. Maybe AJ is going to code share from bkk to dus with them, I'm sure the punters will love paying $2500return to have to buy food on the plane, and the suits will love the Lie flat seating on the A330 (they don't have any on AB) yet they paid more than singa.

Why is Singa the Q base anyhow. I would have thought that there would be more direct traffic to bkk than sin. And it would also put you in range to more places in europe (berlin, Moscow, Copenhagen, AMS). ALso, Bkk has a much nicer airport than SING. If I were JB, bkk would be where i would be looking to get stuck into the Roo route.

[Sunfish]

Mikk:

Does the boss at Q really think he is going to walk into China. I mean look at the size of some of the chinese players.

Qantas is going to be turned into slow roasted Kangaroo fillets.

This new airline will suck Qantas dry of capital - and when that is completed, and there is no more to give, they will take out the axe and cut the Australian shareholders heads off, most probably by a rights issue or share placement with a Chinese bank or airline.

You can forget the Qantas Sale Act. When the choice is between majority foreign ownership or bankruptcy, the Government will cave in. If the Government tries to refinance Qantas itself, it will be threatened that any attempt will result in the deliberate destruction of Qantas China business.

The smarties think that they will end up owning the Qantas brand. I think the Chinese will. The only thing certain is that the small Australian Qantas shareholders will get skinned alive in the transaction.

..At least that is the way I would play it. I would encourage Qantas to over invest itself in China, then when it is fully extended with its neck stretched taught, I would pull out my axe. Kerry Packer did something like this to Lloyd Williams with Melbourne's Crown Casino. There was over investment. Profits didn't quite follow, and all of a sudden there is Kerry at Lloyds side "helping" him by taking it off his hands.

[breakfastburrito]

For posterity
Morale amongst employees got at pretty good airing at the union briefing. From our (flight crew) perspective I personally struggle with this because I don't know how to spell 'low morale'. We work for one of the most profitable airlines in the world which is investing in aircraft and increasing pilot jobs; we have an Enterprise Agreement that is the envy of our peers around the world and which Geoff Dixon re-affirmed on Thursday he would continue to respect; we live and fly in a country that continues to enjoy unrivaled economic prosperity and political stability and "the sun shines every day as well"
(my bold)



http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/559/sunnydaysaipa20050001.jpg

[ohallen]

SMH is reporting that Canberra is starting to get rattled and that DJ is attacking Govt travel account.

Etihad are also directly attacking by advertising FLY WITH THE BEST.

Now all we need is Singapore Airlines to show their hand and it will really liven things up.

This is getting interesting if this folly starts to cost BIG bucks at home.

Perhaps the arrogance and deceptions of the Rat are not going unnoticed.

Shareholders take note.

[fdr]

Jade Boiler is absolutely correct in the assessment of temporal outcomes. The maths show that ultimately the majority of the existing Qantas brand will be exterminated by this board and management group, to chase...

short/medium haul full sleeper A320's?
vs SQ's LCC B777?
really?

If this process is allowed to proceed now, (and it will if inertia of the victims is not converted to proactive defensive response...and I don't mean PIA) it will result in all current staff being directly affected, forget about it being merely 3%, it will be the great unwashed majority, it will just take a couple of years to implement.

Qantas is going to be turned into slow roasted Kangaroo fillets. I doubt that any part of the process will be slow, and I don't see that any component will be recognisably kangaroo once AJ and his minions of mental midgets have finished their dismantling of QFA.

AJ & the board have to go, as well as those of the senior management that have actively or passively supported this destructive divisive program.

[ohallen]

Lets also step up the pressure.

"Spirit of Australia" emblazened on aircraft was based on some underlying assumptions.

Now that those assumptions are seriously in question, should pressure be mounted to remove the decals?

That will get the message across to the Execs and Board who think they can get away with all this spin.

[mcgrath50]

From about 2007 but even more fitting now!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J9eyT-f-yc

[Sydney Buttmonkey]

Share price down to $1.45. :D

Nice work Allan ? What a great business leader you are ?

[TIMA9X]

GJ49RzKgqd8



Support our Qantas.... before it's too late


-_4aYW9VFFU

You are welcome to put these on the new facebookk page, I don't have it.

[rooboy83]

Hi Steve,

I read with interest your link to the vote of no confidence in the board. As a cabin crew member with company issued shares, can I too send in my vote of no confidence?

Also, how will the company determine that those that fill in the forms are legitimate shareholders, as nothing on the documentation requires this info.?

Cheers!

[Sydney Buttmonkey]

Now you would think with the price of fuel and impending carbon tax that the brains ???? of this company would be looking at the article below. Not new about 2 years old. A lot of airlines around the world have taken this option. Qantas again left behind.
The idiot in charge of engineering, who has done nothing since he got here except slap new paint everywhere even came from ANZ.
Then again that would go against the plan to close this once great airline.


The new blended winglets being fitted to Air New Zealand’s fleet of Boeing 767-300ER aircraft are delivering 19 percent higher fuel savings than forecast, the airline said (http://www.airnewzealand.com/aboutus/mediacentre/pressreleases/airnz-blended-winglets-delivering-19percent-greater-fuel-savings-13oct09.htm) Tuesday.

The news brings the airline’s expected fuel savings on its fleet of five 767s to more than 7 million liters a year, cutting 18,400 metric tons of carbon emissions, and allowing the planes to fly farther, climb faster and deliver payloads more efficiently.
Four of the airline’s 767s have the winglets, while the fifth is being refitted and is scheduled to be back in service with the winglets in early November. Aviation Partners Boeing developed the 3.4 meter-high winglets.
“The installation of the blended winglets is part of Air New Zealand’s on-going drive to be the world’s most environmentally sustainable airline,” David Morgan, the airline’s says general manager of airline operations, said in a news release.

[Alien Role]

QUOTE of "THE MOMENT".......??..

"We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams.......
We would be reorganised!

I was to learn later in life, that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganising.. and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralisation ."

Petronius 210 B.C

[bandit2]

AUGUST 20, 2011 ARTICLE 20 OF 20
Killjoyces whichever way you turn
MIKE CARLTON

Alan Joyce, the Qantas boss, sent me an email on Monday. It oozed that smarmy PRspeak that tells you that you are being right-royally schmoozed by the marketing department.

"Dear Mr Carlton," he began. "As one of our most valued customers, I want to share with you our commitment to building a stronger Qantas."

Yup. There's Mistake Number One. That very first sentence contains a dangling participle, a clunky grammatical error. Read by anyone even half-literate, Alan, it can only mean that you are one of Qantas's most valued customers, not me. If you don't believe me, try this: As a small, bespectacled Irishman, I want to share with you …

The rest of the email was more corporate drivel: "The best of what air travel can be … a pioneer that introduced flying to a young nation … state-of-the-art … best comfort, service and entertainment in the sky … spirit that will make Australians proud." And so on, blah-de-blah.

Alan, I don't particularly want to be proud of Qantas, any more than I want to be proud of wombats, say, or Lleyton Hewitt.

I just want you to get me from A to B more or less on time, at a reasonable price, better than the other guys do. I want to use my frequent flyer points when it works for me, not you, and I'm fed up with your website constantly crashing when I try to book. A smiling face at check-in would be nice, too, not a grey computer screen.

I want to be flown by properly trained Australian pilots making a fair wage, in safe aircraft serviced by Australian engineers. I'd like the drinks rolled up the aisle by Australian cabin crew, not by indentured Thai labour pulling $5 an hour. Overseas, I want to travel without you flick-passing me to another code-sharing "partner" when I get half way at Hong Kong, Bangkok or Dallas-Fort Worth.

In short, Alan, I want that ol' time Qantas service. When I flew Jakarta-Sydney on QF42 the other day, the crew worked hard. Nice people. But your Business Class lounge at Jakarta Airport was like a back-alley chew'n'spew, Salmonella Central, where we had to plead for a cold beer. On board, the overhead lockers rattled ominously when we took off. My seat was broken and the breakfast "refreshment" before the dreaded 6am arrival was a polystyrene muffin and tepid coffee that could have doubled as brake fluid.

Alan, you can sack the locals and set up re-branded Asian feeder airlines until you're black in the face. Maybe that will pacify the shareholders for a while, maybe not. But either way, you're killing off the flying kangaroo we once knew. I still call Malaysia home?

JOYCES were everywhere all week. Barnaby of that ilk looked as if he might spontaneously combust when he harangued the carbon tax protest in Canberra on Tuesday.

"This is socialism on a scale that we've never seen before in our lives,'' he bellowed, crimson-faced and sweating, eyes swivelling like the Cookie Monster. The greying mums and dads of his audience clutched their Ditch The Bitch placards and quaked in their cardigans as if Lenin himself had appeared. Next stop: the Finland Station!

It being exactly a year since Julia Gillard's no carbon tax promise, the opposition flung the levers to hyperbole. It was "the anniversary of a day of infamy", squeaked the Liberals' climate change gnome, Greg Hunt, presumably channelling Franklin Roosevelt post-Pearl Harbour. The Queensland Liberal senator George Brandis labelled it "the most infamous broken promise in Australian political history".

Up to a point, George. That honour actually goes to a South Australian Liberal and a former army minister, Dr Jim Forbes, who told an RSL conference in 1964 that "our military advisers have indicated in the clearest and most unmistakable terms that conscription is not the most effective way of creating the army we need. An army composed entirely of long-term volunteers is better than one based on a mixture of volunteers and conscripts.''

Just 16 days later the Menzies government introduced guess what. Some of us baby boomers have long memories, Senator.

YESTERDAY should have been party time at the ABC. It was the 50th anniversary of Four Corners, which arrived in the nation's lounge rooms on August 19, 1961.

Fifty years is a big deal in television. Kicking off with a staff of six and a weekly budget of £480, the program has survived the slings and arrows - both within and without the ABC - to become the longest-running show on air. Not counting the news bulletins, that is.

It is difficult to imagine Australia without it.

So a big bash had been planned, with the Four Corners faces of yesteryear turning out for cocktails and the launch of a commemorative exhibition at the Ultimo headquarters. It would have been one of those very tribal ABC affairs, cheerful and gossipy, where almost everyone seems to be married to, living with or divorced from somebody else in the room.

But then came the thunderclap: journalist Paul Lockyer, pilot Gary Ticehurst and cameraman John Bean were killed when their helicopter crashed near Lake Eyre. The ABC's managing director, Mark Scott, pulled the pin on the party.

Maybe that was the right call. Scott was clearly devastated by the tragedy. But knowing Paul Lockyer, I'm pretty damn certain he would have wanted the show to go on, with corks popping and glasses raised.

He was such a nice man. Lively, amusing, fun to be with. In the hard scrabble of television journalism, both ABC and commercial, he was universally liked for his ready charm and consummate professional skill.

As a young man, he had been a stand-out foreign correspondent. In recent years he travelled the bush, reporting the country to the city with understanding and elegance. They'll miss him out there, for sure.

It is a trope of the right-wing commentariat that the ABC is a nest of left-wing subversives who must be purged.

Only the other day, the tedious Professor Judith Sloan was banging on, yet again, about staff wickedness and the need to raze the place.

It is Paul Lockyer - and the hundreds of good men and women like him at the ABC - who make the best answer to that particular libel.

[email protected]

[Quill Shaft]

Just heard a rumour that:

QF1 will be re-named the QF0.5 and the QF2 will re-named the QF1.5.

QF29 will be re-named the QF28.5 and the QF30 will be re-named the QF29.5

[Angle of Attack]

Keep the pressure on guys and gals it is starting to have an effect, never give up and always attack the Joyce!

[Worrals in the wilds]

SMH is reporting that Canberra is starting to get rattled and that DJ is attacking Govt travel account.Good. How does the travel account work, anyway?
Do they sometimes fly with Virgin? If not, is there a tender process?
The rest of the email was more corporate drivel: "The best of what air travel can be … a pioneer that introduced flying to a young nation …
This is what gives me an acute case of diarrhea. They're still banging on with the 'We're the Orstrayian Airline' drivel in their marketing, complete with full page ads featuring cute lil' lifesavers, when a picture of an overworked Thai hostie earning a bag of rice a day would be more in line with the corporate plan for tomorrow's Qantas :yuk:. The current Board is a long way removed from the enterprising chaps who set up the Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Service. Those guys had vision and decency.

[BombsGone]

Worrals,
I believe most government accounts are set up so either Virgin or Qantas can be used by the traveller. Currently most travel is going to Qantas, however I wouldn't be surprised to see a change once the full new product is rolled out.

[Mstr Caution]

Sources tell me it looks like QF B744 services will be withdrawn from the SYD-HGK route. To be replaced by the A380 with the cheaper cabin crew.

[Fris B. Fairing]

It was stated on one of the QF threads that there is no airline experience on the QF board. At least one of them does:

http://www.adastron.com/aviation/vault/roo-skeleton.jpg

[teresa green]

Come on fella's bombard your MP'S, get all your friends to do it also, sooner or later one of them will bring it up in question time. Make sure SAFETY and AUSTRALIAN JOBS are the main subject, cheap asian labor being the intention of Joyce. We ain't done yet. :D

[teresa green]

Forgot to mention that Andrew Wilkie (according to a Liberal MP mate of mine) does not want QF going off shore. Send him a email to. [email protected]

[B772]

I have it on good authority that QF has requested Airbus to add further range to the A320 to either match or exceed that of the B737-800. I presume this is to enable operations from SE Asia to Australia by Jetstar or the new SE Asian based full service airline.

[breakfastburrito]

Here's an email list for all member of the House of Reps (with the exception of Gillard, she has a web based email HERE (http://www.pm.gov.au/contact-your-pm)).
I will follow up with the Senate list in time.

This email list is in two parts, the first is a straight list, to send individual emails. The second is all the members in the correct group email format - simply cut and paste the entire thing into you TO field.
(please post if this fails due to errors, please let me know & I'll correct it. Note: group email format is as follows
Recipient Name <valid email address>, Next recipient <email address>, )

List 1 House of Representative Individual list

Abbott The Hon Anthony John <[email protected]>
Adams The Hon Dick Godfrey <[email protected]>
Albanese The Hon Anthony <[email protected]>
Alexander Mr John Gilbert <[email protected]>
Andrews Mrs Karen Lesley <[email protected]>
Andrews The Hon Kevin James <[email protected]>
Baldwin The Hon Robert Charles <[email protected]>
Bandt Mr Adam Paul <[email protected]>
Billson The Hon Bruce Fredrick <[email protected]>
Bird Ms Sharon Leah <[email protected]>
Bishop The Hon Bronwyn <[email protected]>
Bishop The Hon Julie Isabel <[email protected]>
Bowen The Hon Chris Eyles <[email protected]>
Bradbury The Hon David John <[email protected]>
Briggs Mr Jamie Edward <[email protected]>
Broadbent Mr Russell Evan <[email protected]>
Brodtmann Ms Gai Marie <[email protected]>
Buchholz Mr Scott <[email protected]>
Burke Ms Anna Elizabeth <[email protected]>
Burke The Hon Anthony Stephen <[email protected]>
Butler The Hon Mark <[email protected]>
Byrne The Hon Anthony Michael <[email protected]>
Champion Mr Nicholas David <[email protected]>
Cheeseman Mr Darren Leicester <[email protected]>
Chester Mr Darren <[email protected]>
Christensen Mr George Robert <[email protected]>
Ciobo Mr Steven Michele <[email protected]>
Clare The Hon Jason Dean <[email protected]>
Cobb The Hon John Kenneth <[email protected]
Collins The Hon Julie Maree <[email protected]
Combet The Hon Gregory Ivan <[email protected]
Coulton Mr Mark Maclean <[email protected]
Crean The Hon Simon Findlay <[email protected]>
Crook Mr Anthony John (Tony) <[email protected]>
Danby Mr Michael <[email protected]>
D'Ath Mrs Yvette Maree <Yvette.D'[email protected]>
Dreyfus The Hon Mark Alfred <[email protected]>
Dutton The Hon Peter Craig <[email protected]>
Elliot The Hon Maria Justine <[email protected]>
Ellis The Hon Katherine <[email protected]>
Emerson The Hon Dr Craig <[email protected]>
Entsch The Hon Warren George <[email protected]>
Ferguson Mr Laurie Donald <[email protected]>
Ferguson The Hon Martin John <[email protected]>
Fitzgibbon The Hon Joel Andrew <[email protected]>
Fletcher Mr Paul William <[email protected]>
Forrest Mr John Alexander <[email protected]>
Frydenberg Mr Joshua Anthony <[email protected]>
Gambaro The Hon Teresa <[email protected]>
Garrett The Hon Peter Robert <[email protected]>
Gash Mrs Joanna <[email protected]>
Georganas Mr Steven (Steve) <[email protected]>
Gibbons Mr Stephen William <[email protected]>
Gray The Hon Gary AO [email protected]>
Grierson Ms Sharon Joy <[email protected]>
Griffin The Hon Alan Peter <[email protected]>
Griggs Mrs Natasha Louise <[email protected]>
Haase Mr Barry Wayne <[email protected]>
Hall Ms Jill Griffiths <[email protected]>
Hartsuyker Mr Luke <[email protected]>
Hawke Mr Alexander George <[email protected]>
Hayes Mr Christopher Patrick <[email protected]>
Hockey The Hon Joseph Benedict <[email protected]>
Hunt The Hon Gregory Andrew <[email protected]>
Husic Mr Edham Nurredin (Ed) <[email protected]>
Irons Mr Stephen James (Steve) <[email protected]>
Jenkins Mr Harry Alfred <[email protected]>
Jensen Dr Dennis Geoffrey <[email protected]>
Jones, Mr Ewen Thomas <[email protected]>
Jones Mr Stephen Patrick <[email protected]>
Katter The Hon Robert Carl <[email protected]>
Keenan Mr Michael <[email protected]>
Kelly Mr Craig <[email protected]>
Kelly The Hon Dr Michael <[email protected]>
King The Hon Catherine Fiona <[email protected]>
Laming Mr Andrew <[email protected]>
Leigh Dr Andrew Keith <[email protected]>
Ley The Hon Sussan Penelope <[email protected]>
Livermore Ms Kirsten Fiona <[email protected]>
Lyons Mr Geoffrey Raymond <[email protected]>
Macfarlane The Hon Ian Elgin <[email protected]>
Macklin The Hon Jennifer Louise <[email protected]>
Marino Ms Nola Bethwyn <[email protected]>
Markus Mrs Louise Elizabeth <[email protected]>
Marles, The Hon Richard Donald <[email protected]>
Matheson Mr Russell Glenn <[email protected]>
McClelland The Hon Robert <[email protected]>
McCormack Mr Michael Francis R <[email protected]>
Melham Mr Daryl <[email protected]>
Mirabella, Mrs Sophie <[email protected]>
Mitchell Mr Robert George <[email protected]>
Morrison, Mr Scott John <[email protected]>
Moylan The Hon Judith Eleanor <[email protected]>
Murphy The Hon John Paul <[email protected]>
Neumann Mr Shayne Kenneth <[email protected]>
Neville Mr Paul Christopher <[email protected]>
Oakeshott Mr Robert James <[email protected]>
O'Connor The Hon Brendan <Brendan.O'[email protected]>
O'Dowd Mr Kenneth Desmond <ken.o'[email protected]>
O'Dwyer Ms Kelly Megan <[email protected]>
O'Neill Ms Deborah Mary (Deb) <deborah.o'[email protected]>
Owens Ms Julie <[email protected]>
Parke Ms Melissa <[email protected]>
Perrett Mr Graham <[email protected]>
Plibersek The Hon Tanya Joan <[email protected]>
Prentice Mrs Jane <[email protected]>
Pyne The Hon Christopher <[email protected]>
Ramsey Mr Rowan Eric <[email protected]>
Randall Mr Don James <[email protected]>
Ripoll Mr Bernard Fernando <[email protected]>
Rishworth Ms Amanda Louise <[email protected]>
Robb The Hon Andrew John AO <[email protected]>
Robert Mr Stuart Rowland <[email protected]>
Rowland Ms Michelle Anne <[email protected]>
Roxon The Hon Nicola Louise <[email protected]>
Roy Mr Wyatt <[email protected]>
Rudd The Hon Kevin Michael <[email protected]>
Ruddock The Hon Philip <[email protected]>
Saffin Ms Janelle Anne <[email protected]>
Schultz, Mr Albert John (Alby) <[email protected]>
Scott The Hon Bruce Craig <[email protected]>
Secker Mr Patrick Damien <[email protected]>
Shorten The Hon William <[email protected]>
Sidebottom Mr Peter Sid (Sid) <[email protected]>
Simpkins Mr Luke Xavier Linton <[email protected]>
Slipper The Hon Peter Neil <[email protected]>
Smith The Hon Anthony David <[email protected]>
Smith The Hon Stephen Francis <[email protected]>
Smyth Ms Laura <[email protected]>
Snowdon The Hon Warren <[email protected]>
Somlyay The Hon Alexander <[email protected]>
Southcott Dr Andrew John <[email protected]>
Stone The Hon Dr Sharman <[email protected]>
Swan The Hon Wayne Maxwell <[email protected]>
Symon Mr Michael Stuart (Mike) <[email protected]>
Tehan Mr Daniel Thomas (Dan) <[email protected]>
Thomson Mr Craig Robert <[email protected]>
Thomson Mr Kelvin John <[email protected]>
Truss The Hon Warren Errol <[email protected]>
Tudge Mr Alan Edward <[email protected]>
Turnbull The Hon Malcolm Bligh <[email protected]>
Vamvakinou Ms Maria <[email protected]>
Van Manen Mr Albertus <[email protected]>
Vasta Mr Ross Xavier <[email protected]>
Washer Dr Malcolm James (Mal) <[email protected]>
Wilkie Mr Andrew Damien <[email protected]>
Windsor Mr Antony Harold <[email protected]>
Wyatt Mr Kenneth George AM <[email protected]>
Zappia Mr Antonio (Tony) <[email protected]>



List 2 Complete House of Representative members list group email Cut and paste below directly into TO field of your email:

edit: Based on Take Five's info below, you may get an ISP lockout (it thinks your a spammer) if you send all recipients at once, I have now edited the list into groups of approx 20, you can either forward your original email, or cut and paste it with the new recipient list.



Abbott The Hon Anthony John <[email protected]>,Adams The Hon Dick Godfrey <[email protected]>,Albanese The Hon Anthony <[email protected]>,
Alexander Mr John Gilbert <[email protected]>,Andrews Mrs Karen Lesley <[email protected]>,Andrews The Hon Kevin James <[email protected]>,Baldwin The Hon Robert Charles <[email protected]>,Bandt Mr Adam Paul <[email protected]>,
Billson The Hon Bruce Fredrick <[email protected]>,Bird Ms Sharon Leah <[email protected]>,Bishop The Hon Bronwyn <[email protected]>,Bishop The Hon Julie Isabel <[email protected]>,Bowen The Hon Chris Eyles <[email protected]>,Bradbury The Hon David John <[email protected]>,Briggs Mr Jamie Edward <[email protected]>,Broadbent Mr Russell Evan <[email protected]>,Brodtmann Ms Gai Marie <[email protected]>,Buchholz Mr Scott <[email protected]>,Burke Ms Anna Elizabeth <[email protected]>,Burke The Hon Anthony Stephen <[email protected]>,




Butler The Hon Mark <[email protected]>,Byrne The Hon Anthony Michael <[email protected]>,Champion Mr Nicholas David <[email protected]>,Cheeseman Mr Darren Leicester <[email protected]>,Chester Mr Darren <[email protected]>,Christensen Mr George Robert <[email protected]>,Ciobo Mr Steven Michele <[email protected]>,Clare The Hon Jason Dean <[email protected]>,Cobb The Hon John Kenneth <[email protected]>,Collins The Hon Julie Maree <[email protected]>,
Combet The Hon Gregory Ivan <[email protected]>,Coulton Mr Mark Maclean <[email protected]>,Crean The Hon Simon Findlay <[email protected]>,Crook Mr Anthony John (Tony) <[email protected]>,Danby Mr Michael <[email protected]>,D'Ath Mrs Yvette Maree <Yvette.D'[email protected]>,Dreyfus The Hon Mark Alfred <[email protected]>,Dutton The Hon Peter Craig <[email protected]>,Elliot The Hon Maria Justine <[email protected]>,Ellis The Hon Katherine





<[email protected]>,
Emerson The Hon Dr Craig <[email protected]>,Entsch The Hon Warren George <[email protected]>,Ferguson Mr Laurie Donald <[email protected]>,Ferguson The Hon Martin John <[email protected]>,Fitzgibbon The Hon Joel Andrew <[email protected]>,Fletcher Mr Paul William <[email protected]>,
Forrest Mr John Alexander <[email protected]>,Frydenberg Mr Joshua Anthony <[email protected]>,Gambaro The Hon Teresa <[email protected]>,Garrett The Hon Peter Robert <[email protected]>,Gash Mrs Joanna <[email protected]>,
Georganas Mr Steven (Steve) <[email protected]>,Gibbons Mr Stephen William <[email protected]>,Gray The Hon Gary AO <[email protected]>,Grierson Ms Sharon Joy <[email protected]>,
Griffin The Hon Alan Peter <[email protected]>,Griggs Mrs Natasha Louise <[email protected]>,Haase Mr Barry Wayne <[email protected]>,
Hall Ms Jill Griffiths <[email protected]>,




Hartsuyker Mr Luke <[email protected]>,Hawke Mr Alexander George <[email protected]>,Hayes Mr Christopher Patrick <[email protected]>,Hockey The Hon Joseph Benedict <[email protected]>,Hunt The Hon Gregory Andrew <[email protected]>,
Husic Mr Edham Nurredin (Ed) <[email protected]>,Irons Mr Stephen James (Steve) <[email protected]>,Jenkins Mr Harry Alfred <[email protected]>,
Jensen Dr Dennis Geoffrey <[email protected]>,Jones, Mr Ewen Thomas <[email protected]>,Jones Mr Stephen Patrick <[email protected]>,
Katter The Hon Robert Carl <[email protected]>,Keenan Mr Michael <[email protected]>,Kelly Mr Craig <[email protected]>,Kelly The Hon Dr Michael <[email protected]>,King The Hon Catherine Fiona <[email protected]>,Laming Mr Andrew <[email protected]>,
Leigh Dr Andrew Keith <[email protected]>,Ley The Hon Sussan Penelope <[email protected]>,Livermore Ms Kirsten Fiona <[email protected]>,Lyons Mr Geoffrey Raymond <[email protected]>,




Macfarlane The Hon Ian Elgin <[email protected]>,Macklin The Hon Jennifer Louise <[email protected]>,Marino Ms Nola Bethwyn <[email protected]>,Markus Mrs Louise Elizabeth <[email protected]>,Marles, The Hon Richard Donald <[email protected]>,Matheson Mr Russell Glenn <[email protected]>,McClelland The Hon Robert <[email protected]>,McCormack Mr Michael Francis R <[email protected]>,Melham Mr Daryl <[email protected]>,
Mirabella, Mrs Sophie <[email protected]>,Mitchell Mr Robert George <[email protected]>,Morrison, Mr Scott John <[email protected]>,
Moylan The Hon Judith Eleanor <[email protected]>,Murphy The Hon John Paul <[email protected]>,Neumann Mr Shayne Kenneth <[email protected]>,Neville Mr Paul Christopher <[email protected]>,Oakeshott Mr Robert James <[email protected]>,O'Connor The Hon Brendan <Brendan.O'[email protected]>,O'Dowd Mr Kenneth Desmond <ken.o'[email protected]>,O'Dwyer Ms Kelly Megan <[email protected]>,
O'Neill Ms Deborah Mary (Deb) <deborah.o'[email protected]>,





Owens Ms Julie <[email protected]>,Parke Ms Melissa <[email protected]>,Perrett Mr Graham Douglas <[email protected][/email]>,Plibersek The Hon Tanya Joan <[email protected]>,Prentice Mrs Jane <[email protected]>,
Pyne The Hon Christopher <[email protected]>,Ramsey Mr Rowan Eric <[email protected]>,Randall Mr Don James <[email protected]>,
Ripoll Mr Bernard Fernando <[email protected]>,Rishworth Ms Amanda Louise <[email protected]>,Robb The Hon Andrew John AO <[email protected]>,Robert Mr Stuart Rowland <[email protected]>,Rowland Ms Michelle Anne <[email protected]>,Roxon The Hon Nicola Louise <[email protected]>,Roy Mr Wyatt <[email protected]>,Rudd The Hon Kevin Michael <[email protected]>,Ruddock The Hon Philip <[email protected]>,Saffin Ms Janelle Anne <[email protected]>,
Schultz, Mr Albert John (Alby) <[email protected]>,Scott The Hon Bruce Craig <[email protected]>,Secker Mr Patrick Damien <[email protected]>,






Shorten The Hon William <[email protected]>,Sidebottom Mr Peter Sid (Sid) <[email protected]>,Simpkins Mr Luke Xavier Linton <[email protected]>,Slipper The Hon Peter Neil <[email protected]>,Smith The Hon Anthony David <[email protected]>,Smith The Hon Stephen Francis <[email protected]>,Smyth Ms Laura <[email protected]>,Snowdon The Hon Warren <[email protected]>,Somlyay The Hon Alexander <[email protected]>,Southcott Dr Andrew John <[email protected]>,Stone The Hon Dr Sharman <[email protected]>,Swan The Hon Wayne Maxwell <[email protected]>,Symon Mr Michael Stuart (Mike) <[email protected]>,Tehan Mr Daniel Thomas (Dan) <[email protected]>,Thomson Mr Craig Robert <[email protected]>,
Thomson Mr Kelvin John <[email protected]>,Truss The Hon Warren Errol <[email protected]>,Tudge Mr Alan Edward <[email protected]>,
Turnbull The Hon Malcolm Bligh <[email protected]>



,Vamvakinou Ms Maria <[email protected]>,Van Manen Mr Albertus <[email protected]>,Vasta Mr Ross Xavier <[email protected]>,Washer Dr Malcolm James (Mal) <[email protected]>,Wilkie Mr Andrew Damien <[email protected]>,
Windsor Mr Antony Harold <[email protected]>,Wyatt Mr Kenneth George AM <[email protected]>,Zappia Mr Antonio (Tony) <[email protected]>,

[Sydney Buttmonkey]

47% of Qantas staff are managers.

Like the old saying goes too many chiefs not enough Indians.

[V-Jet]

Thanks for the list BB.

The other night at a busy asian port on the main control frequency we were told 'Good luck boys, we're all behind you'.

Doesn't mean much in real terms, but it was greatly appreciated. Thank you to whoever it was.

[Take five]

Thanks for the list BB.

I sent an email the other day to about 100 senators and after this my ISP (optus) locked my email account.
I could receive emails but could not send them.
When I contacted customer service they said that I had sent it to too many recipients and was flashed to their system as spam.
It took about 4 hours before they could fix it from India or wherever they were.

In the end they suggested splitting the list into groups of 20 and after this I have had no more problems.

[Captain Sherm]

Do not personalize this as a purely "Anti-Joyce" campaign. That sells your own cause short and demonizes one when the root causes of the malaise are multi-faceted and complex.

A few milestones along the way to where Qantas (in particular) is now probably could usefully start with the Menzies government decision not to get behind Victa and its wonderful Air Tourer in the early 60's. Fast forward to Strong's decision (backed by government) not to do the A300B4 heavy maintenance in Australia and to fire all those apprentices. Then onto Hawke/Keating decisions not to build the second Sydney airport.

These are but a few little photo opportunities on a long journey.

The journey itself, since probably the late 70's has been one where the whole of Australian industry and the political climate has been toward abandonment of a decent secondary industry policy (who remembers "Australia Reconstructed"? in the 80's) and a "Less Tax is Always Better" Keating led race downwards to the populist vote that has gutted university and TAF spending, research etc. Add to that in our aviation world the lies and misinformation as DCA was gradually broken into constituent parts and the "User Pays" world came with promises by Hawke/Keating that core safety would be funded by the tax payers and never compromised. Then the world of corporatization and privatization which though potentially positive, was again done in many cases at the wrong times and for the wrong reasons. Complicit in this was the ACTU as, before our very eyes, the unconstitutional "Corporate State" grew and prospered. The 1989 dispute was a symptom of this, not an isolated event. Remember Hawke had a phone on his desk that only 3 people could call 24/7: Abeles, Murdoch and Kelty?

(I have mentioned Jonathan Raulston Saul before on these boards-Google that name and read books like "The Unconscious Civilization"....nothing new, just applied common sense and reality)

Then against this background add the "It can't happen to us" myopia of earlier QF pilots in leaving AFAP and turning their back on Impulse. The final demise of Ansett and Australian, already gutted in 1989 as ideologue management refused to address reality, the carcass of Australian going to Qantas as Ansett mis-managed its way to oblivion. All along the way a slick QF lobbying machine in the media (remember Jones and Laws “Cash for Comment”) and Canberra ensured that middle and senior management would always be protected, hard decisions avoided.

So Qantas never really broke free of the old paradigms. Look at ratios such as ASKs flown per real dollar of labour cost. Seats in the sky per employee. Layers of management per port served. Horrific! Just no identifiable brake with the past. Huge advances in technology and efficiency were squandered as department budgets and executive suites grew to soak up the surplus. Just look at the figures in the yaer by year Annual Reports on the QF website and you’ll see this tragic case of “Steady as she goes” in a world where change was the norm in every area but the Qantas Boardroom.

We too have been complicit. Listening to conspiracy theories, “Ansett was just fine and we wuz robbed”, "Jetstar is a problem not a solution", tolerating amateurism and adventurism(how could the old DCA ever have even countenanced a Dick Smith era?), avoiding solidarity, in a thousand subtle ways promoting a “me first” mentality. Believing that our own way of doing things was so special. How many AIPA check and training captains supported (by action or inaction) the demise of proper risk assessment processes in Flight Ops? How many individuals along the way supported the hideous QF pilot recruitment and internal transfer regime with its dark Orwellian overtones of “All pilots in the Group are equal but some are more equal”? How many questioned why it could be that a senior check captain on the Dash 8 could be paid less than a 747 S/O? or that indeed that senior check captain did not as a right, have the chance to qualify as an S/O if desired? This was long before Joyce remember.

How many of us failed to see that the price sensitive share of the markets was growing, in absolute and relative terms. That the old full service world was no longer appropriate and that hated or not, blue singlet travellers were here to stay. These boards here on Prune have had much rhetoric but little cold hard reality. Jetstar domestic may have been poorly sold to the Group, and management motives often hidden and devious, but it was a very necessary evil. Without it the Group would have been drowned in a sea of red ink years back. It could and should have been done better, with inclusiveness, explanation, trust and engagement, but the “do nothing” option meant corporate death.

Similarly, a relatively small amount of analysis will show that the Group decision not to build a new paradigm with a significant 777 fleet, as late as yesterday and as far back as 10 years ago, is probably the single greatest self-induced disaster in the Group’s 90 year history. If “Bench Marking” has ever meant anything it should have told government that protection was harming Qantas by allowing such things, not helping it. In fact of course this advice on the negative effects of protection for Qantas has often been given to Government but swamped by a slick Qantas lobbying effort “Give us more competition but not just yet”.

Yes by now, if not before, some readers are already turning red and reaching for their own “Reply” button. To bucket Sherm. But as front seat professionals it never hurts to look at inconvenient truths. You have a chance now, before things get even worse, to look at things as they are and need to be, not just nostalgically focus on the past.

No doubt many in Ansett/Australian management and as well in the AFAP, would give anything to have these few days before August 24, 1989 back again. Well as Davies said in “Handling the Big Jets” (paraphrased) in “Handling the Big Jets”…..”If you mess it up and go off the end of the runway and survive, you will say to yourself “what wouldn’t I give to have those last 30 seconds back again”. Well as you cross the threshold you have that option. Go-round, delay, divert-all are better options than disaster”

Well as August 24 approaches you do have that chance. Don’t waste it by focusing on one person or one set of decisions. There are real opportunities ahead. Hating Joyce, or Jetstar, or contracts, or Asian expansion is a distraction, not an answer.

Get behind a competition (like the Submarine programme competition) for city/state bids for a 767 heavy maintenance, refurbishment and winglet programme to get a top-class Cityflyer product in the skies for the next 5-7 years until enough A330 and 787s can take over. Imagine what that sort of work would do for the economy of Adelaide or Newcastle.

As a matter of urgency, whether QF management like it or not, blacklist all outside pilot recruitment into any part of the group while there are redundancies anywhere within the group. If that means check and training captains have to resign their duties so be it. This is something you could do with less anguish than a fully-fledged strike or drawn out industrial campaign. You may have to tolerate contracts etc in the short term but at least you would have internal unity. And public support too.

As for the 777…..it is never too late to get something right. The 777-300ER and -200LR and 777F (and new developments in the pipeline) will be produced for years yet. If you want to lobby the board, this is the centre of gravity. If you need to contemplate and offer a new Group wide EBA to get that fleet under way, so be it. Inconvenient truth is that neither a future 777 fleet nor a 787 fleet will ever be flown on the long-haul EBA, whatever AIPA’s dreams are.

Sorry this diatribe has gone on. I’ll stop now and just urge you all to take off the rose-coloured glasses, see the true nature of the ills that beset you and de-personalize your fight. History is full of folks who wanted to slay dragons. But history is made by cold eyed realists who identify real challenges and focus their energies and enthusiasm.

I wish you well. If you don't like my thoughts, ignore them. I don't need the vitriol as I once again contemplate the costs, joys, opportunities and challenges in my own life in the 22 years since 1989.

[fdr]

"Duty should always be to the public and the passengers, not to the shareholders." - Hudson Fysh Southern Skies

Today that position is under pressure in all areas of industry. I suspect that with the current shambles of QF's vision, that they fail in all respects; public/passengers and shareholders are all being messed with by the Poisoned Dwarf's vision.Public of AUS are being rolled, passengers are getting a brown paper bag program, and the investors are seeing the share price tumble...

The current headline is that the pilot union and presumably others are calling for the removal of the dwarf. The malaise in QFA extends far further. All of the upper management that have sat around sagely nodding at the emperor and failed to tell him that his clothes had been downsized (rightsized?) to invisibility (much like QFA) and have not acted to protect the shareholder value, company, passenger and public interests need to go. The culture of acquiescence to bad behaviour by management in QFA needs to be cleansed. Even the implementers of the frequently used legal instruments for quieting dissent need to be removed, they are cancerous to good management practices.

The QF 2010 interim report indicates that QFA and Jetstar spend about the same on aircraft leases, whereas QFA has massive depreciation on assets. A point of interest is that the Jetstar leases are pretty darn good.... in fact really good, around half the cost (or less) of what we get in this industry other than for apparently Jetstar. Good business if you can get it....

Of course... depreciation is a two edged sword as well... in the case of QFA where there is no replacement of the asset, it is hard to see where the "loss" truly occurs... it is not like the poisoned dwarf is intending to replace any of these assets for QFA, only for the Jetstar fleet. On top of that, the "investment" of 1.6B, which is made by QF mainline on aircraft is for what aircraft? apparently most of these are in fact Jetstar aircraft, if it includes the B787... or Airbus products. The books supposedly include all of the existing QFA fleet as it has been allowed to develop to, ie it already includes the A380's (and the last ones have been "deferred" presumably to be turned into prettier A320's for Jetstar in due course if management has it's way).

[Oldmate]

From the Qantas Sale Act:

(e) prohibit Qantas from taking any action to bring about a change of its company name to a name that does not include the expression “Qantas”; and
(f) prohibit Qantas from conducting scheduled international air transport passenger services under a name other than:
(i) its company name; or
(ii) a registered business name that includes the expression “Qantas”; and
(g) require that the head office of Qantas always be located in Australia; and
(h) require that of the facilities, taken in aggregate, which are used by Qantas in the provision of scheduled international air transport services (for example, facilities for the maintenance and housing of aircraft, catering, flight operations, training and administration), the facilities located in Australia, when compared with those located in any other country, must represent the principal operational centre for Qantas; and
(i) require that, at all times, at least two‑thirds of the directors of Qantas are to be Australian citizens; and
(j) require that, at a meeting of the board of directors of Qantas, the director presiding at the meeting (however described) must be an Australian citizen; and
(k) prohibit Qantas, at all times, from taking any action to become incorporated outside Australia.

[teresa green]

One other point. Since the beginning of Qantas, the govt. has had the right to induct Qantas and crews into service on the possibility that Australia be under threat from extreme WX (eg Cyclone Tracy where QF was brought in to fly survivors out), unknown or known invaders of our shores, where QF can be used as a troop carrier, or to carry arms and supplies to our armed forces if required. Do we now have to wait for a A/C to be dispatched from BKK to do the job, as there would be few available on the ground here, or do we hope that Borgetti's mob will take up the slack, or that JQ will answer the call? One would hope none of these events happen, but the possibility of the WX causing mayhem and possibly death is always on the cards. Your answer Mr. Joyce?

[Oldmate]

That's what I would have thought c173. I have spent the morning emailing politicians.

[fdr]

Hi Sherm,

your comments are appropriate, however the mechanisms that exists for anyone other than management to fix the problem is limited in subtlety, and the timeframe precludes working out elegant solutions. What is needed is such action that allows the program to be adjusted with some semblance of cohesion with all concerned.

The AJ solution of killing QFA and replacing the corpse with a foreign airline is disturbing. I could contend that the Jetstar form of management (which you are familiar with) is hardly conducive to excellence.

If the AJ solution made sense at any level, I would be far more accepting of what is being done to QFA, however, do you consider that it is likely that the magic of Jetstar's product and management will be able to survive in the SIN environment, using a narrow aisle "premium" product vs B777's in abundance in the local market?

[AlphaLord]

I mentioned this earlier:"Joyce is the patsy"
It is the board and Chairman Clifford who are behind this.
Joyce can do nothing without the approval of the board
By pass Joyce and bombard the board.
They are getting a very easy ride with this

[DrPepz]

yes fdr - in the Asian market nobody likes narrowbodies. This is why SQ does not operate them, and sends 777s to BKK, CGK and HKG. CGK has a flying time of 80 minutes and is flown 8 times a day with a 332-seat 773.

QF refuses to invest in its longhaul product, but instead wants to put a "better lie flat J product" and a "better Y product" in it's (presumably) SIN-based A320 startup. SERIOUSLY?!

I fly regularly from SIN to various regional destinations. SQ rapes you with their pricing ex SIN despite the myriad of competition from the LCCs. No it's not because they give you a full meal on a 80 min flight, but it's because they have the frequencies. If QF's new airline can't get 8 flights a day to CGK and KUL, 7 flights a day to HKG and 4 a day to Shanghai, nobody from the business community is even going to consider them. Oh, and at least SQ can get you from Beijing to SIN at the relatively sane hours of 8.45am, 4pm and midnight. The 0250 Jetstar departure is just ridiculous. Even if they had a lie flat product.

Sounds like OZJET in the making.

[Nudlaug]

Joyce doesn't understand iconic brand | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/joyce-doesnt-understand-iconic-brand/story-e6frezz0-1226118995474)

:D

Given the external challenges facing Qantas, shareholders cannot afford a leader who believes shrinking the network and shifting resources to Asia is the way to win back lost customers and profits.

Shareholders cannot afford a leader who twists the airline’s numbers to obscure the value in the Qantas brand in order to justify ill-advised forays into an unpredictable market.

In essence, shareholders must now ask themselves: can they afford Alan Joyce?

To reject Mr Joyce’s strategy is not – as he has suggested – to reject change.

:ok:

[Angle of Attack]

He is desperate to ram a square-shaped strategy into a hole that is obviously round. The parallels to Sol Trujillo and Telstra are unavoidable.

Exactly, Joyce will be kicked out very soon, but we need to go for the Carotid Artery, a fatal blow to the Board with Clifford the main target. He is behind this mess and a vote of no confidence (which is being organised now), I cant help but feel that QF management have already lost this battle and they are about to be routed. Bring it!

[amos2]

Well, as you suggested Sherm, and with all due respect...

...I think most of us will ignore that rubbish you wrote!

I guess by now you've done the same?

[1a sound asleep]

So this would make Jetstar illegal? From the Qantas Sale Act:

Quote:
(e) prohibit Qantas from taking any action to bring about a change of its company name to a name that does not include the expression “Qantas”; and
(f) prohibit Qantas from conducting scheduled international air transport passenger services under a name other than:
(i) its company name; or
(ii) a registered business name that includes the expression “Qantas”

[Captain Sherm]

Amos 2

I always knew a time would come when with one or two wise words from someone such as yourself I would see the error of my ways and depart these boards for good.

Thanks

And good luck.

[Wing Root]

Joyce about to appear on Australian Agenda on Sky News.

[rmcdonal]

Thanks Capt. Sherm. :ok:
Great read. :D

[Sunfish]

A word about what Boards do and what the CEO does from one who has had a go at that game:

The Board is there to protect the interests of the shareholders - ALL the shareholders, that is its duty.

It does this by doing Two things; enforcing standards of corporate governance and appointing and monitoring the performance of the CEO.

Corporate governance is about how the company is managed - who in management gets to make decisions and how they make and implement them so as to safeguard the assets of the shareholders. This is reasonably straight forward and is receiving a lot of attention in Australia these days.

What people often don't understand is that the Board does not make the decisions about how the company is run. They hire a CEO to do that. The CEO develops the strategy and presents it to the Board. The Board either likes it, or fires the CEO and finds a new one, the Board does not participate in the running of the company.

At a Board meeting, apart for the usual crap about minutes and statutory stuff, the real action begins when the Chairman asks the CEO (who is "in attendance" if not a Director) to take the Board through her report. That report details progress against the approved strategy, significant new events and major decisions the CEO has taken.

The CEO does not ask the Board to take his decisions for him, the Board simply looks at the decisions he has taken, perhaps questions him about how he has arrived at certain decisions taken or forthcoming, mulls his report amongst themselves and either accepts it or rejects it. If his report is rejected he finds himself fired or he resigns. That is why CEOs get paid so much; you are working at the pleasure of the Board. You can be removed any time for any reason, even such thing as a big shareholder deciding that they don't like you personally.

To put that another way, the CEO doesn't ever get to claim "unfair dismissal" (maybe claim non adherence to contract terms though).

Anyway, don't attack the Board about the way the company is run, attack it if you like about destruction of shareholder value or assail it about Corporate Governance because that is their proper concern.

Of course the Board, or most members of it, must approve of the Direction the CEO is taking the company, or they wouldn't have hired him and approved the strategy. The question for the Board is that if they believe that the corporate strategy needs to change, is the present CEO capable of making that change or is a new CEO required?

The deeper question for individual Board members is whether they are happy to remain on a Board if they don't like what is occurring and can't change it? The personal and legal consequences of failing to protect shareholder assets are extreme.

My own opinion of the Qantas Board is better left unsaid.

[TIMA9X]

Joyce left exposed by Qantas campaign


They're called ''teaser ads'', and their purpose is to tease you in the old-fashioned sense. A sly wink and a hint of exciting things to come. Advertisers spend money on teaser ads when they wish to raise anticipation and intrigue about a coming event, such as a gigantic sale or a product launch.
Qantas has launched a mega-teaser campaign, the likes of which we rarely see these days. But as unions, politicians and pilots step up the war against Alan Joyce's restructuring plans, was it the right strategy?

You couldn't avoid the lavishly presented, beautifully crafted promise of a ''new spirit'' last week: a full colour wrap-around of every major newspaper that kicked off a multimillion-dollar print and online campaign to run for the next couple of months. (then this on the radio for the punters)


Katter calls Qantas board "bastards" (http://www.2ue.com.au/blogs/2ue-blog/katter-calls-qantas-board-bastards/20110817-1ixg5.html)

The ad intrigued readers. It got tongues wagging. It looked extremely impressive, and tantalising. But there was one problem. When the temptress stepped out from behind her veil … there was nothing to see.
What on earth was Qantas on about? A long-lens pic of a pretty young lifesaver; the quintessential blonde and blue-eyed Aussie Anglo-Saxon kid. A beautiful blue sky and … lots of evasive, obfuscating blurb.

Having written many corporate ads myself, it was easy to spot the craft of the copywriter, as he or she desperately resorted to familiar feel-good phrases and reassuring sentiments to avoid actually saying what this "new spirit" comprised. "Competitive" gets a mention, as does "stronger" and "rewarding". Finally, right towards the end - by which point most readers would have given up - there's a clue, when the copywriter refers to the "vast majority of our operations based in Australia". Aha! Gotcha. You're moving overseas.

[B]Qantas is clearly relying on a fluffy, blockbuster campaign to "sell" something they know will be unpalatable to many. But by leaving the meaty details out, the campaign raises more questions than it answers. What on earth is the consumer supposed to "buy"? If there's a new airline, what's its name? Is there a new logo? Will it mean cheaper flights? Where is it going to be based? A "new spirit of partnership" - but with whom? Having pricked our interest, but failed to satisfy our curiosity, the teaser campaign forces us to look elsewhere for the answers.

And there they are, all over the news. Job cuts. Thousands of them. The Greens up in arms, reminding us all to check out the Qantas Sale Act of 1992. The unions are having a fit, claiming "they're expanding the airline but getting rid of Australian jobs, and that's a very fundamental mistake". Rival Virgin Australia cheekily grabbing the opportunity to steal some coveted "Aussie spirit" for themselves by offering jobs to those made redundant by Qantas.

Calls by shareholders for Joyce to go. Daily strikes threatened by unions, and subversive announcements made to passengers by pilots and hosties. Joyce forced onto the back foot, defending the redundancies while standing in front of the Harbour Bridge (proving he "still calls Australia home", presumably).
News that Neil Lawrence, of the ''Kevin 07'' slogan and the anti-mining tax ads, is behind the teaser campaign comes as no surprise.:ugh:

Qantas wanted to pull out the "big guns", and they don't come bigger. The opening salvos have been fired in what will be a drawn-out struggle for the hearts and minds of Qantas loyalists. :D

''I think the first message is the most critical and that is that Qantas international has to change or perish,'' Lawrence said.

Maybe, but that's not what the ads say. Perhaps it would have been better if they did. Honesty in advertising is a more powerful tool than obfuscation.
The details dribble out. We learn one of the new airlines will probably be called Jetstar Japan, while another doesn't have a name yet but will be based "somewhere in south-east Asia". Joyce has a Malaysian solution, perhaps. But lacking a single-minded and positive message to sell, Joyce is struggling to deliver the wonderful "new spirit" the campaign promises. :ok:

The tease continues, even on Twit***. So does this mean there will be four different brands, four different product stories and four different logos? Sounds like an ad man's nightmare. (my bold)



Joyce left exposed by Qantas campaign (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/joyce-left-exposed-by-qantas-campaign-20110821-1j4io.html#ixzz1VgRnUPg7)

The feeling in my water is, the tide is turning against the poor execution of last weeks announcement from AJ. It is my view, Qantas corporate affairs/marketing department (whoever put the advertising campaign together) failed miserably, bordering on amateurish at best, confusing messages which only leads people interested in all this to one conclusion, a great big fat waste of money and energy, or simply "the Qantas brand management is a mess."

How could any board member defend or be proud of this outcome?

All the numbers are pointing to a crash landing for LC & AJ, there is no power, no directional indicator, no ILS, no landing aids or ATC to help them.

It's just, eh, just a hopeless situation to be in really.... ohh yeah, IMHO
.

[teresa green]

And how stupid, ignorant and downright patronising that he think that the employees past and present would not rise up, and fight him all the way. The ball is starting to roll, just like a battle cruiser starting to turn, as MP'S are bombarded with ever increasing public anger and my MP (lib) mate tells me the emails are coming in thick and fast. So keep those emails flowing, get all your friends and family on the net, and would we consider a convoy to CBR to save the airline? I would go even if I had to walk. Lets put that one out there for employee and supporters to consider. In our dispute, we had banners, wives, kids, all there (we were goners, but we fought them to the last, and its time we did it again, only no mass pilot resignations thanks) maintain the rage people, we must for our airline, our country, our people, and for the future generation of young australians who deserve to follow their dream into Qantas, be they flight crew or ground staff. What about them?

[Sunfish]

How does "QANTAS - Bring It Home!" sound as a slogan?

All Australian pilots engineers and Cabin crew. The dependable airline.

[73to91]

Naysayers quick in jumping to conclusions about Flying Kangaroo

Qantas chief Alan Joyce ... defends the airline


WHAT makes a company Australian? It's worth asking because, over the past few days, union leaders and some members of parliament have been queuing up to accuse Qantas of betraying its Australian roots.

These claims are misleading at best, insulting at worst.

Qantas employs more than 30,000 people in Australia, in every state and territory, across more than 250 different roles.

We do 90 per cent of our heavy maintenance in this country. No other airline does any heavy maintenance here (Virgin's heavy maintenance takes place offshore). In the small number of cases where Qantas heavy maintenance is done in overseas ports, every hour of every shift is supervised by expert Qantas staff flown from Australia. We spend over $1.4 billion on maintenance annually and invest over $50 million in engineering training. Tourism spending by Qantas passengers in 2009/10 was over $24 billion.

We work with a range of charities including UNICEF, the Fred Hollows Foundation, the Great Barrier Reef Foundation, the Royal Flying Doctor Service and Clean Up Australia Day. Last financial year the Qantas Group provided nearly $20 million in support for Australian communities, including Indigenous health and education programs in outback Australia.

In times of trouble, we stand up for Australians. Earlier this year, we sent charter flights to Cairo to bring home Australians caught up in political protests. We contributed over $1.7 million to natural disaster recovery in Queensland and Victoria. In regional Queensland, we added over 300 flights to get people in and out of flood-affected areas.

Over the next few years, we will be making some major changes to turn around our loss-making international business. These will, unfortunately, result in about 1000 redundancies across a number of job types.

As always, we aim to keen compulsory redundancies to an absolute minimum.

But arguing that these jobs are being "outsourced" or "offshored" is simply incorrect. Not a single job is going overseas. The redundancies are the result of aircraft being retired and the restructure of our route network.

They have absolutely nothing to do with the creation of a new airline in Asia or the establishment of Jetstar Japan.

So despite all the union rhetoric, Qantas remains emphatically an Australian company. And despite what the unions would say, being an Australian company does not mean ignoring opportunities overseas. Their pessimism is selling this great country short. Australia's location is the envy of the developed world we are on the doorstep of the fastest-growing economies on the planet. Our political leaders urge us to take advantage of Asia's huge potential.

If Qantas is to be successful for another 90 years, it must adjust to the new realities. We need to change so that we can compete with our rivals and take advantage of the growth of Asia and other developing regions.

Doing this will not threaten our Australian employees.

Naysayers quick in jumping to conclusions about Flying Kangaroo | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/naysayers-quick-in-jumping-to-conclusions-about-flying-kangaroo/story-e6frezz0-1226119160134)

[73to91]

BA cuts direct flights to Australia | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/business/breaking-news/ba-cuts-direct-flights-to-australia/story-e6freuyr-1226119201024)


BRITISH Airways is to slash its number of flights to Australia by half, a UK newspaper reports.

From March 2012 the carrier will cut direct flights between London and Australia to once daily, according to The Sunday Times.

BA will continue its service from London's Heathrow Airport to Sydney via Singapore and drop the long-standing service via Bangkok.

Instead, it will offer a service from London to the Thai hub, where passengers will be transferred to Qantas flights under a new agreement between the airlines.

"Singapore is a better market for us than Thailand," BA told The Sunday Times.

The airline denied the move was the start of a shift away from the Australian market.

"We are absolutely committed to Australia," it said.

[my oleo is extended]

Good morning Alan, good morning Board,

Hope you are feeling well rested and prepared for another exciting week. One thing is gauranteed - You will be earning every cent of the unjustified salaries you suck from the company, and it is about time. You have started a war you will not win and you have underestimated what QF means to many people. This is a war that you created, a war that will spill blood on both sides of the field, as has already commenced. This is a fight that will taken to the bitter end. If you truly think that millions of people are going to let you tear apart an icon for the sake of stuffing your greedy pockets then you are worse strategists than previously thought. Things have not even warmed up yet.

Good morning Senator X, Tony , 'Mad' Bob, Nick, Adam and Glenn,
You have and are proving your worth. Welcome to 'Club Testicular Fortitude', you are the true leaders in this debacle. You are the only people to have grown a giant set of plums and put them on the line, if for notheing else to simply support the fact that you are proud to be Australian and proud of an Australian icon.
May I suggest the 6 of you form a new political party, one which displays the same level of patriotism and loyalty, something that Labor and Liberal have lost for eternity ? You would get plenty of votes. It is time this country of our's to grow some balls at the top and stopped being so weak and spineless, and instead made decisions based upon on what is best for our nation, not what is best for corportate Australia or for election funds.

Dick Smith, shame on you. Your statements are spoken like a true businessman, 'money money money'. Not much more I can say but you dissapoint me greatly.

[bandit2]

You know they're struggling for support when they start mentioning the charities they support. The way business entities are set up these days, within the main company, Qanats International is still going to be fending for itself. Even after the new projects get underway. If they get underway? Do people think Jetstar Japan & the other full service airline are going to be under International's umbrella. Doubt it. What changes have they annouced are going to make the huge turnaround for QF International? They're whinging & whining about the 787 delay, but who gets them first! Jetstar. We've made Australia's biggest A/C order of 110 A320's. But guess what who gets them?
We are getting 4 more A380's, we're also retiring 4 747's. More or less nullifies that change I would say. They mention there will be employment opportunities in Asia for people, I'd bet both my n&ts you'll be on local wages & conditions. They've been after Engineers for LA for years now. The sticking point is that you'll be under local wages & awards!
If share holders don't get a dividend this week, look out AJ!!!!

[peuce]

Alan, I'll tell you what makes an airline Australian.

Firstly, it isn't facts and figures.

It's minds and hearts. It may not be logical, but this is what attracts us to Qantas ... at the moment.


A comfortable and well equipped aircraft with a red rat on its tail
An aircraft serviced in Australia, by Australians
An aircraft flown by Australian trained, supervised and salaried technical and cabin crew
An aircraft operated under the regulations and oversight of CASA
An aircraft on which I can fly all the way to my overseas destination


That's what attracts Australian custom.
That's what attracts a lot of international custom.
That's what a lot of us are happy to pay a premium for.

Choose to discount this at your peril.

[blow.n.gasket]

How to decipher what da Leprechaun is really saying.:E






Artery-The study of paintings

Bacteria-Back door to cafeteria

Barium-What doctors do when patients die

Benign-What you be, after you be eight

Caesarean Section-A neighbourhood in Rome

Cat scan-Searching for Kitty

Cauterize-Made eye contact with her

Colic-A sheep dog

Coma-A punctuation mark

Dilate-To live long

Enema-Not a friend, pilots.

Fester-Quicker than someone else

Fibula-A small lie

Impotent-Distinguished, well known

Labour Pain-Getting hurt at work.The Aviation Minister.

Medical Staff-A Doctor's cane

Morbid-A higher offer

Nitrates-Rates of Pay for Working at Night,
Normally more money than Days

Node-I knew it

Outpatient-A person who has fainted

Pelvis-Second cousin to Elvis

Post Operative-A letter carrier

Recovery Room-Place to do upholstery

Rectum-Nearly killed him

Secretion-Hiding something

Seizure-Roman Emperor

Tablet-A small table

Terminal Illness-Getting sick at the airport

Tumour-One plus one more

Urine-Opposite of you're out

[PLovett]

Well someone at QANTAS has either a sense of humour or the spirit of adventure......................as reported on another forum:

Qantas is now showing a movie called "The Female Orgasm Explained" as part of its in-flight entertainment package. The Australian airline will show the French documentary on a channel called "The Edge" during long flights.

Get summaries of the top business news from a global perspective Sample

The film comes with an Adult Content warning, of course, and flight attendants can block the channel on any seat.

"In general programs are selected according to quality of content, box office/ratings, topicality and Qantas customer demographics," Qantas said in a statement.

"With the Edge, we source programs that are out of the ordinary across all genres."

The film will run until November. "The Female Orgasm Explained" shows excerpts from old porn films, and curious passengers will want to make sure that their headphone volume is turned down low. The movie's soundtrack lives up to its title.

"I think sociologically it's interesting they are showing something that has the potential in that quite confined space to have people say 'Oh, what are you watching?' or shows that might be understood as titillating as porn," Catriona Eider, an associate professor at the Department of Sociology and Social Policy, Sydney University commented to Reuters.

Perhaps it is thought that will attract long-haul customers back. :ooh:

[JDI]

* Monday, 22 August 2011 *
* * *
*
*

AIPA has been approached by Qantas shareholders to distribute an Urgent Notice to all Qantas Shareholders and associated forms to our members. Please find the Notice below:

Urgent Notice to all Qantas Shareholders


What we need from you

Please find available on AIPA's website (CLICK HERE):

A document setting out three proposed members' resolutions expressing no confidence in Mr Joyce, Mr Clifford and the balance of the Qantas Board.
A document setting out a short statement that explains why shareholders should support the resolutions.
The goal is to have the resolutions to be considered by the next Qantas Annual General Meeting and the statement circulated to all Qantas shareholders.

The Corporations Act provides a process for members' resolutions and circulation of statements in support of this kind.

100 shareholders must request that the resolution be considered by the AGM. Similarly, 100 shareholders must request that the statement be circulated.

If you are a Qantas shareholder, please print out both forms - available by CLICKING HERE.

Please only take this action if you are a Qantas shareholder with voting rights.

You need to (1) complete the form attached to the statement and (2) complete the form attached to the proposed resolutions.

The original forms must be signed and posted to:

The Relevant Officer
Locked Bag 5747
BOTANY NSW 1455

For this effort to be successful, you must move urgently.

100 valid forms must reach the above address no later than Thursday, 25 August 2011.

Thank you for your support and your considered confidence in what Qantas can continue to be.

*
* * *
To login to the AIPA website visit Welcome to AIPA - Australian & International Pilots Association (http://www.aipa.org.au)

[dragon man]

Come on all you Qantas shareholders time to crap or get off the pot. Heres the AIPA website Urgent Notice to all Qantas Shareholders (http://www.aipa.org.au/aboutus/qantas-agm), so sign the paperwork ASAP for the no confidence vote and mail back to locked bag 5747 Botany NSW 1455. :ok:

[Whispering T-Jet]

Time out for some humour:E

Maybe AJ is a closet imperialist as he is trying to take QANTAS back to the days of QANTAS Empire Airways?

L'il ol QEA just flew the pax to SIN where the big boys in Imperial Airways then took them onwards.

The new aircraft order contains the new Airbus A381 seen here: A381 (http://recollections.nma.gov.au/ejournal_library/images/vol_3_no_2/qantas_flying_boat_on_syndey_harbour/) just perfect for the sole remaining route to SIN.

Of course with all this hoo - hah the QF brand might be a little damaged so why not hive off the domestic arm and set up a new premium carrier?

Lets call it Trans Australia Airlines - the nations Jet-Line. It has a red Kangaroo and everything!
Suggested paint scheme : TAA scheme (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Trans-Australia-Airlines/Boeing-727-76/0184178/L/&sid=8ba6ed49eca7a45cbe97f0a98d71ba23) and print advertising =TAA Ad (http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/items/1528279/publicity-brochure-trans-australia-airlines-taa-proudly-presents-the-727-whispering-t-jet-1965)

It would have Australian Pilots, Engineers and serve proper food, even in economy - see the sample TV ad here: TAA TV ad I would give it a slightly retro look that seems to be in fashion now.

Of course one of the best & effective ways to get to your customers is via your kids - the Gruen transfer guys have nothing on our ads!

TAA Kids Ad 1

TAA Kids Ad 2



Seriously QF guys & gals all the best in the struggle to save an icon and may he :mad: have the "luck of the Irish" (look it up).

[Jethro Gibbs]

Qantas / Forstaff Meeting on the 24 wed ? is Staying Going or Gone ?

[B772]

Interesting to read Geoffrey Thomas saying many of Qantas's problems are of its own making. He says they would not be having half the problems they have today if they had purchased the B777 in the 1990's. The B777 is the cornerstone of the three most profitable airlines in the world.

He also says QF were the last major airline to put seat-back videos into economy and were one of the last airlines to put premium economy in their aircraft despite the fact Australians are the second-tallest people in the world flying the longest distances.

[7378FE]

The new BKK (ie not going to LHR) service has been loaded in to systems

QF23 SYD1335-BKK1855 744 D connect to BA010 0020+1BKK-0630+1LHR 744 D
BA009 LHR2200 – BKK1515+1 744 D connect to QF24 BKK2055-SYD1000+1 744 D

Gives a 5h25 connection to BA in BKK going up to LHR and a 5h40 connection coming back.

What is it with long connections in SE Asia on QF/JQ these days. :rolleyes:

[Bootstrap1]

Well it must be right if Geoffrey said it.

[my oleo is extended]

Interesting to read Geoffrey Thomas saying many of Qantas's problems are of its own making. He says they would not be having half the problems they have today if they had purchased the B777 in the 1990's. The B777 is the cornerstone of the three most profitable airlines in the world.
Geoffrey been trawling the internet again to source his information for another news article based on his own assumptions which are normally incorrect ?
Journalist parasite.

[maggot]

Well someone at QANTAS has either a sense of humour or the spirit of adventure......................as reported on another forum:

Quote:
Qantas is now showing a movie called "The Female Orgasm Explained" as part of its in-flight entertainment package. The Australian airline will show the French documentary on a channel called "The Edge" during long flights.

Get summaries of the top business news from a global perspective Sample

The film comes with an Adult Content warning, of course, and flight attendants can block the channel on any seat.

"In general programs are selected according to quality of content, box office/ratings, topicality and Qantas customer demographics," Qantas said in a statement.

"With the Edge, we source programs that are out of the ordinary across all genres."

The film will run until November. "The Female Orgasm Explained" shows excerpts from old porn films, and curious passengers will want to make sure that their headphone volume is turned down low. The movie's soundtrack lives up to its title.

"I think sociologically it's interesting they are showing something that has the potential in that quite confined space to have people say 'Oh, what are you watching?' or shows that might be understood as titillating as porn," Catriona Eider, an associate professor at the Department of Sociology and Social Policy, Sydney University commented to Reuters.
Perhaps it is thought that will attract long-haul customers back.

seen it, not bad but not a patch on 'Miss Nude Australia 2009' that was shown maybe 2 years ago :D

[DirectAnywhere]

What is it with long connections in SE Asia on QF/JQ these days.

It's all about f$&king the airline to be sure, to be sure. There can be no other reason for such appalling scheduling. Our customers are going to loathe it and I can't blame them.

Hmm, let me think - fly direct on the same aeroplane with SQ/EK or have an almost six hour layover with BA/QF. Are they taking the piss? Seriously, you couldn't make up a better way to screw an airline. Muppets.

(rant off)

[ohallen]

Yeah and wait until you they get the almost routine delays of BA.OK coming back but horrible heading over.

No premium passenger is going to go even contemplate this one without some huge price incentive...that's right, QF is one of the most expensive.

What medication are these planners on???

This will be the end of the rat.

[breakfastburrito]

What medication are these planners on???

This will be the end of the rat.
I would suggest to you that no medication is involved & this is all completely rational. The question is "How would these planners measure success"? Would the end of the rat be a successful outcome to them?

You may need to adjust your paradigm.

[Ken Borough]

QF23 SYD1335-BKK1855 744 D connect to BA010 0020+1BKK-0630+1LHR 744 D
BA009 LHR2200 – BKK1515+1 744 D connect to QF24 BKK2055-SYD1000+1 744 D

Amazing! If these schedules are correct, they won't last for long as no one will buy them. What a way to treat a customer? It would be interesting to know the basis for these schedules but they could be 'dummied' so as to get something into the Res Systems.

[Sunfish]

The Qantas Group believes its future lies in China, ask Alan Joyce about all the money the Australian shareholders will make out of the Chinese.....

Oh wait!

THE Chinese legal system has struck again against a successful Australian business person, this time a single mother who founded a private university in Guangzhou.

The case of Charlotte Chou has been kept quiet since she was taken from her home on the night of June 24, 2008, while her one-year-old boy was asleep.

Ms Chou was interrogated while being deprived of sleep for several days, without access to a lawyer, and later convicted of bribery on the basis of those confessions, say family members. She was released in December 2009 and immediately re-arrested at the prison gate.

The next chapter in Ms Chou's three-year ordeal will occur on August 30, when she will be tried for embezzlement.

Ms Chou's case is the fifth that The Age has exclusively revealed involving a successful Australian citizen being detained by Chinese police in murky circumstances.

Read more: Another Australian hits China's legal wall (http://www.theage.com.au/national/another-australian-hits-chinas-legal-wall-20110822-1j6s0.html#ixzz1VmgT84mI)



Didn't you learn anything from your Vietnam experience Alan? Alan?


TWO Australian Qantas executives have been held in Vietnam and the former boss of joint venture Jetstar Pacific arrested over losses at the budget carrier.

Qantas executives Daniela Marsilli and Tristan Freeman have not been formally charged but were forced to spend Christmas in Vietnam and are still prevented from leaving the country.

The two are part of a team seconded to modernise Jetstar Pacific, 27 per cent owned by Qantas.

Alan Joyce, chief executive of Qantas, which part owns Jetstar, admitted that losses from so-called fuel hedging ran into hundreds of millions of dollars but said the practice of fuel hedging was routine within the airline industry.
He added that he was confident the employees had done nothing wrong.



Qantas bosses held in Vietnam | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/qantas-bosses-held-in-vietnam/story-e6frg6nf-1225817496532)

[Captain Gidday]

OMG. Will the REAL Ken Borough please stand up?
Ken, I think you forgot to log off and your avatar's been hijacked.

[maggot]

Didn't you learn anything from your Vietnam experience Alan? Alan?



TWO Australian Qantas executives have been held in Vietnam and the former boss of joint venture Jetstar Pacific arrested over losses at the budget carrier.

Qantas executives Daniela Marsilli and Tristan Freeman have not been formally charged but were forced to spend Christmas in Vietnam and are still prevented from leaving the country.

The two are part of a team seconded to modernise Jetstar Pacific, 27 per cent owned by Qantas.

Alan Joyce, chief executive of Qantas, which part owns Jetstar, admitted that losses from so-called fuel hedging ran into hundreds of millions of dollars but said the practice of fuel hedging was routine within the airline industry.
He added that he was confident the employees had done nothing wrong.


Qantas bosses held in Vietnam | The Australian

...and not to mention the ca$$$h :ugh: :yuk:

[my oleo is extended]

THE Chinese legal system has struck again against a successful Australian business person, this time a single mother who founded a private university in Guangzhou.
The case of Charlotte Chou has been kept quiet since she was taken from her home on the night of June 24, 2008, while her one-year-old boy was asleep.
Ms Chou was interrogated while being deprived of sleep for several days, without access to a lawyer, and later convicted of bribery on the basis of those confessions, say family members. She was released in December 2009 and immediately re-arrested at the prison gate. What a sterling idea. Maybe the QF Board, AJ and Bruse could all be based offshore, in China. If the above article is how Chinese businesses receive 'oversight' then I for one am in favor. Imagine the QF echelon copping that treatment, pure gold.If that doesnt keep them honest I dont know what will ?

[hongkongfooey]

I wish their was a smilie of a guy rolling around on the ground in fits of laughter :E
The Chinese make the Vietnamise look like fair trade, I just can't wait to see how this pans out, its going to be :mad:ing hilarious.

[Nassensteins Monster]

AJ may be short, Irish and sometimes incoherent, and his predilections and personal tastes may be incompatible with your world view. But juvenile insults about a person's stature, accent or private life serve no-one's cause well. It may make you feel better to vent your frustration by striking below the belt from anonymity. But remember, these forums and your true identity may not be as secure as you think. And these are public forums. We have enough of a fight on our hands without alienating members of the public who either share AJ's attributes or who simply find such insults abhorrent regardless of the target. Such comments reflect poorly on all of us.

Play the position, not the man.

[DrPepz]

Malaysia's not much better, though they won't quite throw you in jail for hanky panky. You get a medal for it.

Eg. The shareprice of Air Asia doubled in the last 3 months, while that of MAS went down 40% in the 3 months leading up to the announcement of this MAS-AK share "swap".

Tony Fernandes now gets MH at a discount, while the Malaysian taxpayer forked out much more for Air Asia. Who bailed who out? Did MH bail out Air Asia or did Air Asia bail out MH? Why did the share prices move in such specific directions in the 3 months leading up to this announcement?

Looking at the Air Asia board, the ruling party has appointed all their cronies there.

Do things look as simple as they seem? If QF wants to jump into bed with MH-Air Asia, I hope they know they have to handsomely reward everyone from the number 1 man down.

MH is not an unprofitable airline per se. It's just that everyone in MH and their cronies are making money from MH through their own little cosy contracts. In fact the old MH management spent more time thinking of which supply contracts they could award to their family and friends, rather than how to actually improve the airline. Rumours abound of eggs being sold to MH Catering at RM4 (US$1.35) per egg, because "so-and-so"'s relative owned the farm that supplied these eggs.

Why is it that Malaysia keeps pumping bad money into Proton year after year? Volkswagen tried to buy it, but the Malaysian govt said that all existing supply contracts must stay, and they could not get rid of the Malaysian management. Again - the establishment would rather this crappy company stay afloat to feed their relatives and friends.

Malaysia is indeed truly Asia. If AJ and co think that the Malaysian government is sitting around waiting in eager anticipation for QF to set up an airline there and fight with MH and AK for those precious air rights, he better think again.

Only Singapore would merrily allow QF to set up a proxy airline and take on precious air rights which SQ fought for decades to achieve, for the sake of growing its "air hub status" and its economy, creating jobs in the process. Perhaps the presence of the QF Group hub in Singapore is beneficial to the local economy, which was the number one concern of the SIN govt in this whole venture. 3K has grown much faster since Temasek divested of its stake. Temasek did not get SQ and MI and TR to ruin 3K and prevent their growing out of SIN.

However this is why Singapore is Singapore, and Malaysia will always be Malaysia, Thailand will always be Thailand and Indonesia will always be Indonesia!

[King William III]

Just curious, why are the AGM motions being mailed to the AIPA and not direct to QF ?

[DirectAnywhere]

Discover seamless world travel with Emirates

Dear Bloggs,

With Emirates, you can fly from 24 domestic departure points across Australia to any of our 28 European destinations, in just two stops.

You'll also enjoy the convenience of only having to book one ticket through Emirates for both your domestic and international flights. Plus, your domestic-international combined ticket allows you to check in at least a generous 30kg of luggage at your domestic departure point and connect seamlessly with your international flight.

Need I say more? The New Spirit my ass.:ugh:

[unionist1974]

NM , good post , sound advice , a lot on here should take note of .

[1a sound asleep]

Come to tomorrow are we going to get the full details or another wishy washy AJ speech highlighted by "yet to be announced, forthcoming options, arising opportunities, possible this, possible that, likely scenarios, under consideration...bla"

We want to know the truth and the whole truth. We want actual changes, dates not more lies, truth and honesty

[piston broke again]

Anyone know where the best coverage of the press conference will be? Televised or otherwise...

[Jethro Gibbs]

Where has the ALAEA gone ? this was all a big deal for a day in the news now next to nothing.

[King William III]

QF up 8.5% today…..did I miss something….did AJ resign?…..is there a buyout in the offing?….very unusual activity!

[airbus_galley_girl]

QANTAS AIRWAYS LIMITED (QAN) - ASX Listed Company Information Fact Sheet (http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/companyInfo.do?by=asxCode&asxCode=QAN#headlines)

[my oleo is extended]

QF up 8.5% today…..did I miss something….did AJ resign?…..is there a buyout in the offing?….very unusual activity! Bit of a mixed bag, punters selling fearing tomorrows 'big news' won't be good, other punters betting that tomorrow's news will be upbeat so they are buying, then throw in the mix that depending on what the DOW is doing the share price may fluctuate daily by a few percent here and there while global instability reigns supreme! Plus, a buyout may be brewing, also affecting the market, but I wouldn't get too excited as anything the current CEO or Board do puts extra nails in QF's coffin.....

[Sunfish]

8.5%??? I smell a takeover offer!!!!!!!!!!

This is obviously what was planned, it will be announced tomorrow....

"Qantas is in advanced discussions with Malaysian Airlines.

The Federal Government has been kept informed...."

[OneDotLow]

Wasn't tomorrow's big news given last week?

QF Management (taken with a grain of salt) advised employees that the AUG 24th announcements were brought forward as the plans approved by the board needed to be shared with the market immediately.

[Jethro Gibbs]

There is a meeting at AVALON tomorrow so they say what will happen ? don,t think the ALAEA will be there though.

[Nudlaug]

Qantas chiefs face no-confidence vote as shares go into tailspin (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-chiefs-face-noconfidence-vote-as-shares-go-into-tailspin-20110822-1j6o9.html)

And quoting Airline Hub Buzz on FB

BREAKING NEWS: The QF 'No Confidence' Vote makes it on the agenda. Over 1000 QF shareholders have supported the no confidence motion in the carrier’s board meaning resolutions against directors incl CEO Alan Joyce and Leigh Clifford will be circulated in the lead-up to the QF AGM in October. Well done! That's fantastic stuff!

:ok:

[B772]

It appears 583,000 shares shares were awarded to Alan Joyce on 12 August at no cost from the trustee of the ESP Trust. In view of the disasterous QF performance it is difficult to see how Alan would be entitled to $875,00 approx. worth of shares.

[flying_a_nix_box]

Well I got an email from EK pointing me to this today - Discover a new way to travel the world | Special Offers | Destinations & Offers | Emirates Australia (http://www.emirates.com/au/english/destinations_offers/special_offers/introducing_emirates_partnership_with_virgin_australia/introducing_emirates_partnership_with_virgin_australia.aspx) seems that they are going to leverage Qantas's new strategy for all it's worth!

[blackhander]

From Plane Talking blog


A preliminary forensic financial examination of the Qantas group commissioned by the Qantas pilots union casts serious doubts on claims by the company’s CEO Alan Joyce that its international division is losing $200 million a year.

In fact the examination by PPB Advisory found that there is no defined international division for accounting purposes in the Qantas annual reports up to last year’s, although it notes that Qantas may properly define such a segment in the results for the year to June 30 which will be released tomorrow morning.

Among the key early problems PPB Advisory identifies is that although the Qantas frequent flyer program generated EBIT or earnings before interest of tax as a percentage of revenue of 30%, this measure of profitability for the combined international, domestic and regional operations under the full service brand produced only a 0.6% return and Jetstar’s operations produced a 6% return.

It says “the frequent flyer segment is clearly dependent on the Qantas segment for revenue (i.e. the Qantas network) yet profit is not allocated there.

“In fact, the Qantas segment wears the liability for the frequent flyer segment, but doesn’t reap any of the rewards. At least not so long as Frequent Flyer is expanding.”

The preliminary report also says there is a “huge question mark over the mysterious corporate/unallocated segment, which reported a loss of $123 million in the Qantas Group accounts to June 30 last year.” It doesn’t show how much, if any, of that loss was put down to the undefined* ‘International Division’ to make up the $200 million loss figure frequently quoted by group CEO Alan Joyce.

PPB Advisory provides strategic advice and forensic accounting services to companies, government bodies, and investment institutions.

Although its examination of the Qantas financials, based on ASX filings and other publicly available information is incomplete, PPB Advisory draws attention to the 100% owned Jetconnect subsidiary based in Auckland, and says “Jetconnect is nothing but a labour hire company.”

Jetconnect is paid 12.5%*extra*for costs relating to the maintenance and operation of Qantas painted NZ registered 737s operating trans Tasman services as well as 10.4% extra*for costs*relating to personnel.

PPB Advisory says that if Jetconnect, which flies NZ registered jets identified misleadingly as Qantas ‘The Spirit of Australia’ incurs no other overheads these mark ups represent a profit before tax that is significantly higher than the 1.3% earnings of the Qantas group as a whole in the year to June 30, 2010.

It also held $NZ 140 million in cash, 3% of the groups total cash yet only 0.5% of its assets, on which it was earning only 3%, much less than was available to the group.

The preliminary report identifies a number of other factual issues which would support the conclusion that Qantas is misrepresenting the relative performances of Jetstar and the full service international brand to the detriment of the long haul carrier and the pilots and engineers who are in an industrial dispute with the company.

[porch monkey]

Well gee, who'd a thunk it!:D

[bandit2]

Well done AIPA! Keeps getting better doesn't it. This Board & CEO are getting paid millions of dollars, whilst people are losing their jobs, & families are possibly losing their homes, due to their greed!
Over to you Prime Minister.

[ohallen]

Hang on NZ $140m in cash ...didn't someone say they did not have a bank account???

[TIMA9X]

I can't help thinking pprune.org had something to do with this news as well.:rolleyes:
Well done AIPA and well done all on here, an amazing few months really. :ok:

LC & AJ sleep tight. :E

[V-Jet]

Though it is still a VERY long road, may I publicly thank:

Qf Engineers and Steve Purvinas
AIPA comm (particular mention Lurch and the 'other'(HKG) Steve)
Ben Sandilands

At least if we go down now, we go down with some real provable runs on the board. Strangely it means a lot to me that there is some real proof at last.

[SeeBee]

Can somebody please explain the sharp jump in share price just before close this afternoon?

thanks

SeeBee

[bandit2]

Maybe because the good hard working staff at Qantas might finally see some common sense. Also many people 'may' keep their jobs.

[SimonBl]

Absolute congratulations to all those involved for managing to get this high profile enough to have a segment on potentially & alleged dodgy accounting on the 7:30 Report with Leigh Sales. If you missed it, hopefully it will be online soon.

As an outsider, it seemed positive to you guys - well done.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

It's all going to come out.


Xenophon attacks Qantas management



From: AAP
August 23, 2011 10:44PM




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INDEPENDENT senator Nick Xenophon has launched a scathing attack on Qantas management, accusing it of fudging the books with Jetstar's hidden costs to justify gutting the flying kangaroo.

Speaking under parliamentary privilege, Senator Xenophon told the Senate tonight that Qantas management's claim that its international operations were unprofitable needed "forensic examination".
Last week Qantas Airways set a five-year target to return its struggling international operations to profitability, cutting some long-haul routes, deferring orders for Airbus A380 superjumbos, and confirming it was looking to set up a new full-service premium carrier in Asia.
As part of the restructure, Qantas will cut 1000 jobs, including pilots, cabin crew, management and engineering staff.
Senator Xenophon questioned whether Qantas was really losing money.
"Or is it actually profitable, but losing money on paper because it's carrying so many costs incurred by Jetstar?" he asked.
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End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar. (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/xenophon-attacks-qantas-management/story-fn3dxity-1226120794255#sidebar-start)


He detailed a long list, provided by insider sources, "where costs should have been billed back to Jetstar but were paid for by Qantas.
"These are practices that Qantas and Jetstar management need to explain," he said.
"Jetstar's costs are magically becoming Qantas' costs."
Senator Xenophon alleged that when Jetstar took over the Cairns, Darwin and Singapore routes, replacing Qantas flights, a deal was struck requiring Qantas to provide Jetstar with $6 million a year in revenue.
He said in Melbourne, Jetstar did not pay for the use of gates and instead Qantas picked up the tab.
"Why does Qantas lease five checking counters in Sydney Terminal Two, only to let Jetstar use one for free?" he said.
Senator Xenophon said when flights were cancelled and people needed to be rebooked, Qantas did the heavy lifting.
"Jetstar never pays Qantas for the cost of rebooked passengers, but Jetstar gets to keep the revenue of the original bookings."
He said this was worth millions of dollars a year.
Senator Xenophon said Jetstar didn't have to pay for the use of replacement aircraft provided by Qantas when its own planes broke down.
"We've been told by Qantas management that the changes that will effectively gut Qantas are necessary because Qantas International is losing money," he told the Senate.
"But given the insider information I've just detailed I would argue those claims need to be reassessed.
"It would be foolish to take management's word Qantas International is losing money."
Senator Xenophon speculated that Qantas was using "a strategy of private equity selloff by stealth" to avoid breaching the Qantas Sale Act.
"That doesn't stop you moving assets out of Qantas and into an airline you own, but isn't controlled by the Act."
He said Qantas group would end up with a whole lot of subsidiaries it could base overseas, using poorly paid foreign crews and engineering and safety standards that do not match Australian standards.
"In time, if the Qantas group wants to make a buck it can flog these subsidiaries off for a tidy profit," he said.

[Nudlaug]

Jetstar talked up by Qantas - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-23/jetstar-talked-up-by-qantas/2852550)

[my oleo is extended]

It's all going to come out. Agreed. This entire episode is a sham. It is going to take some muscle and balls to bust this mess wide open, Xenaphon and co are the only political players willing to make a stand and ask the serious questions. Everybody needs to throw there weight and energy behind Xenaphon and co, as well as behind the Union leaders. If you have been sitting on the fence then this morning is your last chance to display some ticker.

As a side point, Senator Xenaphons call for QF to open the books needs to be pushed hard and supported by all. If, hypotheticaly a take-over occurs this morning and there is even the remotest whiff of Darth in it then some very very serious questions need to be raised.
I am assuming that an organisation wouldn't be so brash as to drive down a companies value so that some former mates can stroll back in and scoop a small fortune ?? I am not saying that is the case, but it has been rumoured.

[apache]

from
Qantas slams report questioning losses | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/companies/qantas-slams-report-questioning-losses/story-fn91v9q3-1226120772165)



But in a letter to AIPA, Qantas chief financial officer Gareth Evans expressed disappointment that the union was continuing to pursue its claims after a briefing on the airline's finances last week.

Mr Evans said management had a legal, commercial and moral obligation to report results accurately and not to misrepresent its performance.

"These reports are audited by independent auditors," he said. "In the face of this open and detailed approach, you seem committed to providing incorrect, misleading and ill-informed comments to the press."

"you seem committed to providing incorrect, misleading and ill-informed comments to the press."

but it is OK when QF spin does it?

[Sunfish]

Gareth Evans protests far too much!

"These reports are audited by independent auditors," he said. "In the face of this open and detailed approach, you seem committed to providing incorrect, misleading and ill-informed comments to the press."

Dear Gareth, no doubt you are perfectly correct and not only is everything above board and legal, I'm sure you have discharged your responsibilities to the letter; However:

Dear Gareth, you and I know perfectly well that the statutory accounts do not provide the whole truth, they are a limited set of truths that are required by Government to be disclosed. What matters is the management accounts which are a whole other set of books.

Furthermore, while the Auditors have no doubt performed a thorough and no doubt totally legal and praiseworthy audit of the groups accounts, you and I both know that the little audit teams, composed as they are of the cream of commerce/law graduates who are at best Two years out of University, wouldn't know a FADEC from a brake pack.

To put it another way, no matter how diligent those audit teams are, they do not have the expertise to even know what the right questions are to even ask in an airline setting, let alone have the experience to evaluate the answer.

To put that yet another way; do you really believe that a fresh faced commerce graduate is going to walk up to some Qantas middle manager and say:

"Sir, I note that on the Qantas finger Brisbane at Gate 25, Qantas Crews have been unable to dock when all other gates were taken. Gate 25 in some cases was not being used for several hours but the aircraft and passengers have waited, burning Jet fuel in the process until another bay was free. Why was this gate in the Qantas Brisbane finger not available for Qantas use? Are there any other Gates in Qantas fingers that Qantas weren’t able to regularly use"

or;

"Sir, I note that all Qantas groups aircraft are fitted with ACARS, who paid the bill for ACARS use and what cost was allocated to each segment of the Group? What amount was paid by or allocated to the Qantas International business?"



Qantas engineers serve carrier with Jetstar cost questions | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/16/questions-that-qantas-investors-may-like-to-have-answered/)

Lets face it Gareth, the average audit junior wouldn't know what an ACARS was if it bit her on the leg. You can tell them anything you like.

By way of explanation to Ppruners; Auditing is dead boring. The professional services firms hire hundreds of fresh faced commerce/law graduates to do this work each year, knowing that they will be bored out of their minds after about Three years and leave. There is thus no body of experience built up at the junior levels.

Every year we always got a fresh team foisted on us and as the youngest and least senior guy it was my job to "entertain" them. I answered their less than penetrating questions for a few hours, showed them the data they wanted to see, then took them for a hangar tour and then had them sat in the pilots seat of a B767 for a minute or Two. After that it was lunch and they departed all smiles until next year....never the wiser to our nefarious schemes:E

[VBPCGUY]

What time is the presser scheduled for today?

[1a sound asleep]

Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/)

Qantas has reported underlying profits before tax to June 30 of $552 million, in the middle of is guidance range

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/files/2011/08/explain.jpg


Qantas Airways has more than doubled full-year net profit and says the general operating environment is challenging and extremely volatile.

Read more: Qantas profit doubles, falls short of estimates (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-profit-doubles-falls-short-of-estimates-20110824-1j8zj.html#ixzz1VtiOVyoR)


Qantas in 'best' result since global financial crisis, says chief executive Alan Joyce- QANTAS has more than doubled full-year net profit and says the general operating environment is challenging and extremely volatile.

"We achieved the result while overcoming significant external and operational factors, including a series of natural disasters, a 28 per cent increase in average fuel prices and an underperforming international business."

Qantas in 'best' result since global financial crisis, says chief executive Alan Joyce | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-in-best-result-since-gfc-says-chief-executive-alan-joyce/story-e6frg95x-1226120995151)

[clark y]

I noticed on Qantas 2010/11 Full-Year Results - Supplementary Slides (ASX website) that QF international had an 82.4% load factor(page61). I would describe that as fairly healthy loads. Why didn't international run at a profit????

[AlphaLord]

Qantas mainline not only has to cover its own costs but also the costs of Jetstar.
Its difficult to generate profit when you cover costs of an entity that provides none of the benefits of revenue.

[Short_Circuit]

Qantas not only has to cover its own costs but also the costs of Jetstar.
Its difficult to generate profit when you cover costs of an entity that provides none of the benefits of revenue.
and is being stripped of aircraft, routes, Pilots & Engineers.:mad:

[Mr Leslie Chow]

Once again terrific reporting of all the facts by a professional reporter who has done extensive research.
Sky's the limit for demanding Qantas workers | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/skys-the-limit-for-demanding-qantas-workers/story-e6frg6zo-1226120744492)

Email address at the bottom too which is great, so we can all let her know what the facts are.

[dragon man]

From trolling thru the slides this is where i get confused.
1) QF international , yield up 8%, revenue up11% unit costs up1% seat factor 82.4. Lost $200 million but dont know the exact amount because it includes domestic.
2) Jetstar EBIT up 29% with unit costs down 3% (maybe they are getting the hedged fuel). Ancillary revenue a record $24 a pax. Why not add $24 to each ticket and stop pissing the punters off.
3)Unit costs per ASK provided for Jetstar not Qantas.
4) Jetstar International load factor down from 77% to 76.1% Jetstar Asia load factor down from 80.4 to 76.7% with the fares they charge i cant believe they would be making money on those load factors, so why out of the Jetstar total earnings doesnt AJ tell us what each section of this wonderfull business is earning. Could it be that the non domestic business's are all losing money? I suspect so.

[apache]

Slide 61 refers to "updated aircraft product to B738's on Trans Tasman routes" . This comes under the slide heading of "QANTAS INTERNATIONAL".

does this mean that they DO include Jetconnect as part of QF intl?

[ao767]

As a share holder I understand I don't see the big picture, how do Freight earnings grow by 48% when the balance sheet shows net freight revenue only increased by 3%?? Is it that cheap to have contract freighters, did they really cut that much from their costs of last year? Or was it because they didn't have to pay any cartel fines this year??
I wasn't good at accounting can someone explain please?

[duderanch]

If your figures are so robust Mr Evans and there is nothing to hide then why don't you answer the 62 questions put forward by the ALAEA fed sec ?

I guess senior management have filed that one away with the engagement survey results.

[The The]

If QF international lost $200m, the EBIT for QF Domestic and Qlink would be $428m.

Total QF Domestic (including Qlink) passengers is 21,930,000. So each passenger earns QF $19.50 profit.

Total Jetstar passengers is 15,315,000, with an EBIT of $169m So each passenger earns Jetstar $11.03 profit.

When you look at the ASK's, QF Domestic makes a profit of $0.012 per ASK. Jetstar makes $0.0049 per ASK.

So QF Domestic is 2.5 times more profitable than Jetstar per ASK and makes 77% more profit per passenger.

So which business segment gets absolutely nothing from the recent announcements?

[What The]

Brother by another mother!

Exactly right. Have a look at the EBITDARs of the segments and see where the money comes from.

One day someone will wake up to the fact that the cash flow has gone and this "amazing" JQ business is not so amazing after all.

Unfortunately, those responsible will be and are long gone.:ugh:

[TIMA9X]

ABC midday news report update
dye3Kr403wg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Z6VEnhGNCrM/TlRp1eBcZoI/AAAAAAAABM4/VVcu0PldI8k/24-08-11%252520qantas%252520midday-shares.JPG

[QFdude]

The The, if your figures are correct, then in line with what AJ says about investing and putting capital into those business sections that are performing best......

......oh no the B787 is still going to JQ international instead of QF Domestic - where they're desperate for new equipment. Go figure!!!

[unionist1974]

Is there a dividend to be paid to shareholders ? Can't see why not unless they want to really turn of the investors .

[camel]

and the 'winner' of the new premium carrier base is ..... singapore ?:)

[The The]

Exactly right. Have a look at the EBITDARs of the segments and see where the money comes from.


That's the problem Bro, they don't show the breakdown the EBIT's for each division (international v domestic) within the segments, you have to work it out. It's not hard to see why they don't provide the detail, the numbers don't agree with their ideology:

Jetstar Asia made $A14.25m. That gives it a profit of $5.28 per passenger or $0.0024 per ASK. QF domestic is thus about 3.7 times more profitable per passenger or 5 times more profitable per ASK.

Jetstar Pacific is obviously such a complete basket case, they provide 2 lines on it with not a single financial detail.

If you take Jetstar Asia out of the Jetstar numbers, then the Jetstar profit per pax increases slightly to $12.27 and the ASK profit rises to $0.0054. Still a long way off QF domestic!!!

All these numbers are based on the financials provided by QF in the annual results including the $200m international losses, I have made NO assumptions, just broken down the numbers. Even if we did say QF had exaggerated the international losses and say said that QF international lost only $50m and so QF domestic made $278m, the QF domestic business still far outperforms the Jetstar business in profit per ASK and profit per passenger. It would appear that if QF really wanted the best return on capital, they would pour as much capital as possible into QF domestic to make even better returns.

No wonder Virgin is aggressively chasing the premium domestic market. JB knows this is the true pot of gold and must be laughing his head off at QF's stupidity in ignoring the best performing asset and market.

[Artificial Horizon]

The The,

You figures may well be correct, just imagine though how much more profit Qantas could be making if they managed to reduce all their costs down to the level of Jetstar.

[peuce]

just imagine though how much more profit Qantas could be making if they managed to reduce all their costs down to the level of Jetstar.

To do that, they would also have to reduce their range of services down to the level of Jetstar ... then they would have just another Jetstar ... or one big Jetstar.

Dump F/F ... dump Lounges etc etc These things don't run by themselves.

Is that what they really want?

[crosscutter]

Talking about Jetstar Pacific being a basketcase........ In Singapore yesterday I noticed the SIN-AKL run was cancelled and after a brief discussion was able to confirm the pax had been given seats on the QF 6 or 10 and then onto AKL. How often does this happen? and let me guess Jetstar will keep the revenue from the flight.

[The The]

The The, if your figures are correct, then in line with what AJ says about investing and putting capital into those business sections that are performing best......

......oh no the B787 is still going to JQ international instead of QF Domestic - where they're desperate for new equipment. Go figure!!!

Exactly QFdude.

Now there is obviously a limit due to the maturity of the domestic market in that you cannot keep adding capacity forever (someone please tell Jetstar that). But it is clear that the B787 would give the best return in QF domestic as a replacement for the 767. It could even be argued there is a clear case for Jetstar domestic to be reduced and QF domestic expanded as it makes more money from the available seats it puts into the market.

[packrat]

"You figures may well be correct, just imagine though how much more profit Qantas could be making if they managed to reduce all their costs down to the level of Jetstar."
When is a cost not a cost?
When its a Jestar cost.
When mainline picks up the tab Jetstar effectively has no costs.
All revenue,profit but no costs.
I'd like me some of that.What a great business model:ugh::ugh:
Mainline probably provides the muffins and peanuts gratis to boot.

[BaronB]

It would appear that if QF really wanted the best return on capital, they would pour as much capital as possible into QF domestic to make even better returns.

It could even be argued there is a clear case for Jetstar domestic to be reduced and QF domestic expanded as it makes more money from the available seats it puts into the market.

I think these comments ignore (or at least overlook) some fundamental/basic economics. Just dumping more and more capital into QF domestic is unlikely to make 'even better returns' - in fact, doing so is likely to reduce the actual ROI figures in the short term (because you increase capex but don't necessarily improve revenue).

Likewise, shifting seats from Jetstar to QF domestic is also unlikely to improve the return on each seat sold. Surely there is price discrimination going on to eke out as much from each segment of customer demand as is possible? The people flying Jetstar aren't automatically going to shift to QF domestic - in fact, they're likely to shift to V or T.

I'm not sure what the argument is here? Kill Jetstar and hope QF domestic is able to pick up the pax? Not convinced its going to work.

[TIMA9X]

An update, Steve Creedy's point of view today, (News Ltd's of course)
Just a small point Steve, I didn't see a 8% bounce today for the shares Steve, was that yesterday when you recorded this possibly?


XMRby0F4TE0

Below is the Sydney Morning Herald version from Ch 10 news, A very solid performance but we must change...... a proud Australian spirit..... (that doesn't fly to LHR via BKK anymore...)

uzsA5x01z0E

posted for the record, for this thread
.

[MR WOBBLES]

watch this space
GAAM, Fly Lease

Now to some fancy flying by a stellar cast of local investors who have been the force behind the country’s second-biggest aircraft leasing business Global Aviation Asset Management and have now managed to sell it to US-listed FLY Leasing for $US1.4 billion. FLY is the former Babcock and Brown aviation leasing business and boasts former B&B execs Trevor Lowensohn and Phil Brown as its advisors. The merry cast at GAAM cashing in on the deal include former Qantas boss Geoff Dixon, his former CFO and former Leighton CFO Peter Gregg, former Allco boss David Coe, John Singleton and private equity investor Mark Carnegie. This team is now looking at multiple investment opportunities and Dixon has told The Australian Financial Review that they are looking to put together a bid to take over the management of the $6 billion portfolio of RBS Aviation Capital, the fourth-largest aviation leasing company in the world.

[ejectx3]

Baron,

I'm not sure what the argument is here? Kill Jetstar and hope QF domestic is able to pick up the pax? Not convinced its going to work. If you take a look at the relative prices of the two, often there is very little to separate the two airlines. Often QF is cheaper on the same route at the same time!. So I imagine killing jetstar would cause people to go to QF, as it is often just as cheap.


On another note, can someone explain to me how Qantas FF makes a profit? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a FF scheme...passnger takes a flight..gets some points....uses them later to buy another flight. Where's the profit? Surely it's a liability?

[Jabawocky]

So what was the big announcement? I was expecting something huge....thought these boards would have gone off by now if there was.

Seems like same old hum drum again!

[ejectx3]

Already happened few weeks ago.....

[amos2]

I don't know too much about Mr Wobbles up above...

but, if he knows as much as he says he does, I would be a bit concerned...

so, over to you Mr Wobbles!

Give us some more!

[Beer Baron]

BaronB, from one Baron to another I think the crux of the point that The The is making is where is the investment in the most profitable part of the QF Group??

Internal memo states the international loss was $216 million while total 'Qantas' profit was $228 million, so domestic must account for a $444 million profit. This far exceeds any other section of the business. Jetstar Asia made a paltry $14.3 million profit. Yet Jetstar's further international forays and a new Asia based A320 operation are having billions of dollars of investment capital thrown at them.

What about Qantas Domestic??? Nothing!!

I agree with you, the issue is not about replacing JQ domestic with with QF domestic as they are different products for different markets. However why not invest in the QF domestic product with;
1) Better interiors/service offerings - to fight of the growing Virgin threat, and
2) Rush the 787 in to replace the 767 - which will drive unit costs down with lower fuel and maintenance costs.
Investment that would sustain QF's competitive advantage/market share and increase profit margins.

[maggot]

Baron,


I'm not sure what the argument is here? Kill Jetstar and hope QF domestic is able to pick up the pax? Not convinced its going to work.

If you take a look at the relative prices of the two, often there is very little to separate the two airlines. Often QF is cheaper on the same route at the same time!. So I imagine killing jetstar would cause people to go to QF, as it is often just as cheap.


As much as I'd like to agree with you I don't think it would work like that. The marketing has worked, people just think jetstar = cheap fares. But I guess a large marketing scheme could work just as well as the way.

[Xcel]

The fines exceed that of internationals losses...

[bandit2]

In the breakdown of the profit, I never saw the total for the cargo cartel fines & the compensation payouts to the Vietnamese! Just a cool couple hundred million I assume. Wasn't that what QF International lost?

[Traffic]

eject

FF programs are a great way to bleed revenue out of a business.

Punters earn miles by flying or by buying products from providers who buy points from the supplier to be a partner in a popular program...in this case QF.

QF FF then has to buy seats off QF for redemptions. The price differential is the margin made by the FF program.

So is QF decides to bleed money out of the airline into the FF program it just has to make that margin bigger. And if they wish to favour one part of the airline over another they can price differentially and basically give away seats to the FF program.

It would be interesting to see the numbers.

Certainly AJ would have you believe that the FF program would survive in its current form with a totally degraded QF International.

As to setting up a full service airline in Singapore with A320's...delusional.

[7378FE]

Well it's nearly the end of AUG 24 and the sky is still where it always has been, it hasn't fallen in yet as far as I can see :rolleyes:

[balance]

An announcement from Alan Joyce* - YouTube

[victor two]

A pretty normal meeting wasnt it. Not the "slaughterhouse" that many of you had been hoping for in order to maintain your snivelling complaints against management. Good profits, route changes that will protect your employment rather than take it away. What happened guys? What conspiracy are you overpaid sheep all going to invent next in order to continue your mindless rants ??

[bandit2]

Well we did learn that AJ is the most greedy & stupid CEO's in QF history. Who announces $550 million profit, tells everyone how we need more bums on seats. BUT Mum & Dad investors you'll get no dividend, for the 3rd year in a row. Now I'm sure there are proud retired Australians out there who, would have thought a great Australian company would be a good investment. On behalf of the staff at Qantas I'd like to appologize to you all. To say I am disgusted at AJ & the board is an understatement.
Sorry almost forgot AJ & the Board would like to thank you all for their yearly bonus's & god knows what other benefits these greedy pigs think they deserve!

[Jethro Gibbs]

At Least Ned Kelly had the manners to wear a mask when he robbed you.

[TIMA9X]

As we roll into the night the ABC News reported it like this,


sxsarGUgEmw

The 24th is turning out to be a bit of a non event so far, just waiting for the report on Lateline that BB was seen singing with Elvis at Martin Place on his way home from Japan.


http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/files/2011/08/Tokyo-1-600x400.jpg

:)

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I think a lot of readers here would have had a squizz at the latest announcement and be a little familiar with the Qf Annual reports. Remember when International and Domestic were reported in separate segments? Not now of course. So then there was this statement from them today -


Mr Joyce and chief financial officer Gareth Evans hit out at critics, including unions and Senator Nick Xenophon, who have accused it of cost-shifting losses on to the international divisions to assist operations including Jetstar.


Mr Joyce said it was an "outrageous accusation'' which "baffled'' him.


Mr Evans said said each division of the airline operated on a separate "user pays'' basis for their own services and "there is no cost-shifting between Qantas and Jetstar.''


He said there was no separation in the accounts of the international operations, which the airline claims has suffered heavy losses, and the domestic Qantas operations due to the high crossover of costs involving aircraft and staffing.

If this is the case, HTF do they work out that International has lost $200m?

[DrPepz]

Last week AJ was quite certain that his new A380-esque A320 premium carrier would be based in SIN or KUL.

Today he suggests that negotiations haven't even begun.

Anyway, QF has not even approached, informally, any authority in Singapore on the setting up of his new carrier.

Thanks to him announcing years in advance he wanted to fly longhaul Europe routes ex SIN, SQ now says they are going to start their new carrier.

With SQ's new carrier, Singapore will have 5 home-based airlines with a SIngapore AOC.

CAAS is now deliberating if Singapore has space for a 6th home based carrier - which is quite ridiculous for a tiny island of 5 mil people - and if it will be beneficial for Singapore's air services development (instead of killing everyone simultaneously)

If AJ shut his silly mouth, SQ wouldn't have thought of starting their own longhaul LCC and CAAS would have presented him an AOC on a silver platter.

It looks like he is missed the boat. Malaysia doesn't want him, Vietnam has screwed him, and I doubt he has the appetite to even begin dealing with Indonesia. Maybe Laos might take him, or East Timor.

[rivet head]

Just got home from having too many beers at my local and my other half tells me about a news report that Singo and GD launching some sort of t/o bid.I didn't believe her and laughed and now I;m going to bed.HILARIUS I think?

[Swimbetweentheflags]

It looks like he is missed the boat. Malaysia doesn't want him, Vietnam has screwed him, and I doubt he has the appetite to even begin dealing with Indonesia. Maybe Laos might take him, or East Timor.

Maybe Nauru might be interested :}

[bandit2]

Better chance of seeing Elvis, than AJ giving a dividend!

[Sunstar320]

Pepz, did the Jetstar Asia A320 operation make any money this time round?

[DrPepz]

Sunstar - Didn't 3K make A$15mil or something? Beats Tiger I suppose.

It seems that QF is consolidating 3K's accounts into Group accounts despite owning just 49%. I know that this is possible under IFRS - which indicates that 3K is run as a subsidiary and not purely as an associate company.

In theory this means that 3rd countries (outside Singapore and Australia) can potentially challenge the fact that 3K is a majority Singaporean owned and controlled carrier.

Oh on an unrelated note, the name of SIA's new LCC is:

SCOOT.

SIA Plans To Name New Low-Cost Carrier Scoot | AVIATION WEEK (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=comm&id=news/avd/2011/08/24/03.xml&headline=SIA%20Plans%20To%20Name%20New%20Low-Cost%20Carrier%20Scoot)

I kid you not.

Beats the name of yet another animal I suppose.

[The Green Goblin]

Its appropriate :ok:

They are sending Qantas a message (to scoot) :ok:

[gobbledock]

When will QF stop fu#king around in SIN's backyard? All that happens is that the Singaporeans get cranky and fight back twice as hard. QF does not have the capital, managerial expertise or large enough scrotum to give them a run for their money. Might as well take a wet paper towel to a gun fight AJ as you are going to get your fingers burned. There is only so much provoking they will take until they turn on you and teach you a major lesson.
How naive of the little Irishman thinking he can just waltz into some parts of Asia and set up his own mega money making entity and enjoy reaping the spoils of Asia, no strings attached! Oh yes, the lunatics are certainly in charge of the asylum. Folks this entire episode is going to turn pear shaped I gaurantee you that. Freddy Kruger isn't as dangerous as the Gnome..

[1a sound asleep]

~~~~~~▄▌▐▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▌
~~~▄▄██▌█ ░░░░ The Karma TRUCK IS COMING!░ ▐
▄▄▄▌▐██▌█ ░░░░░ Alan Joyce jump aboard
███████▌█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▌
▀(@)▀▀▀▀▀▀▀(@)(@)▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀(@)(@)▀▀▀▀▘

[DrPepz]

Sq tried to enter australia twice, and got burnt twice. I think the whole AN saga cost them 400m dollars. Doubt sq can repay a favour this big to qf!

[TIMA9X]

Update, AJ Lateline 24-08-11
"I am paid less at Qantas than I was at Jetstar in 2008"...... that's what he said! No wonder LC wanted him..:ugh:

kgb6VnEyB9U



This video made me a little more cheerful, when she introduced the segment with, "and now for another big Australian......" then cut to _ _.. LOL

[TIMA9X]

For me, the story of the day was from this great man, Ben Sandilands.

Qantas wrap including the bits the general media leaves out | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/24/qantas-wrap-including-the-bits-the-general-media-is-too-compromised-to-report/)

Qantas wrap including the bits the general media is too compromised to report

This report first appeared in the Crikey subscriber bulletin today, and extracts from pilot and licensed engineer responses have been added because they are substantially suppressed in general media coverageQantas dismisses talk of private equity bid as baseless | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/24/joyce-no-qantas-bid-formal-or-informal/)

Pretty much sum's the day up....doesn't it?

Qantas LEGAL banned a video I only hosted (didn't make) made by a concerned Australian I don't know, who was the only person who got to the truth, 24-08-2011 (they didn't like it.) .
I salute that concerned Aussie!

[NephewBob]

I guess the board has to report to the owners. (shareholders) in the real world, and make plans accordingly.

I emphasise real world, as QF's competitors reside on the same planet.

Ticket to London Sir? SQ, EK, QR, TG etc fly at least twice a day. New York? Emirates 2 times per day. etc.etc.

The difference is not just lower labour costs, it is lower taxation costs. & more efficient (less charges) airports. Buy a ZED ticket through Bahrain compared to a ZED via Sydney or London, for instance. Let me know how you feel about the difference in price.

SQ, can write down new aircraft after 4 years, QF depreciation is 7-10?
Emirates, Qatar & Etihad (to name a few) do not have any company tax liability, so their asset depreciation is up to them. Kind of a huge advantage ?

Yes we can moan about protectionism or we can change the over-regulated over mandated and overtaxed environment we call the 'lucky country'

Let's Legislate bipartisan, 1st-5th freedom rights, lets employ more civil servants to negotiate the aforementioned, lets employ more security at airports (to make it safer)???? (or should we really take a closer look at home)

Sorry (not really) for the rant.

A government that can give you every thing you want
is strong enough to take every thing you have.
-Thomas Jefferson

[Sunfish]

Nephew Bob, if what you were saying is true, then Qantas would have a magnificent Profit before interest and tax, furthermore, considering the age of the Qantas fleet and its leasing arrangements, I wouldn't believe depreciation was much of a problem either.

To put it another way; if it was, you can bet Joyce would be screaming about it from the pulpit.

I also note that Jetstars profits would be even less impressive if the cost shifting between Jetstar and Qantas was factored in, in fact Jetstar wouldn't be making a profit at all.

[gobbledock]

Do not believe the smoke and mirrors act that AJ is peddling.
He says this - 'QF management are disciplined, have accpeted pay freezes, forgone cash bonuses, and his current salary is less than what it was when he was at JQ in 2008' !!
Hilarious.The catch in all this is this 'my salary is less than JQ in 2008'.
As follows:

1) Salary only makes up a small component of an Execs remuneration package, and it is usually the smallest component at that. Other tasty treats can include but not limited to ;
2) Sign on bonus
3) KPI bonus - often linked to OTP, company financial performance etc
4) Consultancy links
5) Leasing companies linked to the airline which can include things such as aircraft, aircraft components, general supplies, uniforms/clothing and GSE to name a few
6) Share options that are gifted, completely free
7) Director fee's. Often this is a nice earner if a 'parent company' owns let say 7 subsiduary companies for example. A CEO could be a Director or board member on these smaller franchises and earn a tidy fee from each subsiduary
8) Finally, this is a very basic and brief overview of how executive managements TRUE package is put together, and this does not include every ingenious method of padding out their supposedly mere and humble remuneration package.
Put it another way, I once knew a CEO who earned a mere salary of just over $500 000 per year. He never mentioned in interviews that he was 'gifted' almost $70 million in share options. All he ever banged on about was how 'he did it tough and humble' when his 'salary' as CEO was so much lower when compared with other equivalent company CEO's who earned 'salaries' of millions per year. Yeah right, the reality was he was cleaning house while the naieve and dumb staff swallowed his smoke and mirror pauper act - hook, line and sinker.
It's all a deceptive play on words designed to fool the masses....

So, my point ? If a person wants to be absolutely truthful as to what he/she earns then he/she will outline each of the above points (and any extra souces of financial benefit), table it and allow everyone to calculate the true worth of the said persons remuneration.

P.S Sunfish - This is a topic/subject that you would understand very clearly. Perhaps you could add or provide some additional input on how or what could be done to accurately assess what an individual's true 'take home value' is under these sort of executive packages ? All hypothetical of course.

[Gnadenburg]

Yes but what happened on AUG 24 that was so monumental?

[TIMA9X]

Yes but what happened on AUG 24 that was so monumental?Good point, it appears whatever Q have up their sleeve, is not finalised... or they are waiting for other factors to come into play..... new investors possibly?

I find these posts from DrPepz (#680 685 & 689) very interesting, it is very possible the Jetstar setup in SIN will be seen as a Singapore identity only, it could unravel if Q apply too much pressure with the setup of yet another Qantas entity (Premium airline) as the skies are crowded in this neck of the woods, on paper anyway...

Last week AJ was quite certain that his new A380-esque A320 premium carrier would be based in SIN or KUL.

Today he suggests that negotiations haven't even begun.

Anyway, QF has not even approached, informally, any authority in Singapore on the setting up of his new carrier.

Thanks to him announcing years in advance he wanted to fly longhaul Europe routes ex SIN, SQ now says they are going to start their new carrier.

With SQ's new carrier, Singapore will have 5 home-based airlines with a SIngapore AOC.

CAAS is now deliberating if Singapore has space for a 6th home based carrier - which is quite ridiculous for a tiny island of 5 mil people - and if it will be beneficial for Singapore's air services development (instead of killing everyone simultaneously)

If AJ shut his silly mouth, SQ wouldn't have thought of starting their own longhaul LCC and CAAS would have presented him an AOC on a silver platter.

It looks like he is missed the boat. Malaysia doesn't want him, Vietnam has screwed him, and I doubt he has the appetite to even begin dealing with Indonesia. Maybe Laos might take him, or East Timor.


this

It seems that QF is consolidating 3K's accounts into Group accounts despite owning just 49%. I know that this is possible under IFRS - which indicates that 3K is run as a subsidiary and not purely as an associate company.

In theory this means that 3rd countries (outside Singapore and Australia) can potentially challenge the fact that 3K is a majority Singaporean owned and controlled carrier. and this,

Sq tried to enter australia twice, and got burnt twice. I think the whole AN saga cost them 400m dollars. Doubt sq can repay a favour this big to qf! All this setup talk of a new premium carrier in Asia appears confusing at this stage, nothing seems clear at all....:confused:

[The Green Goblin]

Cause it will probably be Japan :hmm:

[fdr]

Under the current proposed program of QF board and CEO, the future outcome of group profits is able to be readily characterised:

asystole...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsXoSMn55hQ

Redirect Notice (http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://ninjabetic.squarespace.com/storage/post-images/flatline.jpg%3F__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION%3D1295541211507&imgrefurl=http://ninjabetic.squarespace.com/thebadblog/2011/1/20/flatline.html&h=306&w=315&sz=13&tbnid=Hm50PGvPuCq4tM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=93&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dflat%2Bline%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=flat+line&docid=s-ygPfDiI8vB-M&sa=X&ei=LLFVTr7_B-bbiALYxq3CCQ&ved=0CEQQ9QEwBA&dur=250)

[Captain Gidday]

We might think of Japan as part of Asia, but ask a Japanese person what they think about that. The answer might surprise you.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

FIFA think Australia is part of Asia.

[Captain Gidday]

Do you think of yourself as Asian, Fed Sec?
Maybe if Australia is Asian, we could base the new Asian airline [not to be confused with Qantas] in Sydney then?

[dragon man]

Someone remined me last night that in the vote of long haul pilots in the late eighties to allow age exstension from 58 to 60 there was an agreement with Qantas that if any retrenchments were needed of pilots that all the over 58s would have to go first. Can anyone confirm this for me? If correct then id say there will be no retrenchments from long haul ranks.

[DrPepz]

How does one define "Asia"? More than half of Russia is in Asia. Is Armenia in Asia despite being Christian? Is the Philippines Asia because it's Catholic? With Japan being so face conscious and hierarchical are they "Asian"? (After all didn't they coin the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere")

Indonesia is a multi-party democracy which would be familiar with the West but Westerners can't easily deal in that country. Singapore is an effective one-party state (a concept alien to the West) but has Western standards of living and Western companies have little problems dealing there. What is Asia and what is not Asia?

The fact is nearly all Asian countries view their neighbours as rivals. There are so many cultures, subcultures, religions and nuances between each country, city, province etc, you can't just define it as one single homogeneous continent.

And Japan? Nobody outside Japan knows how to deal with that country, I'm glad that Jetstar thinks they do, and I eagerly look forward to BB's book on "How I managed to break into the Japanese market"

Which Asian countries are truly friends with each other and actually like each other? Why did Singapore get Australia and New Zealand into the ASEAN meets and made both countries' presence a regular affair?

One other lesson to learn from Asia is it is an impossibly tough continent to do business in. The two easiest places to do business in are SIN and HKG, but they are tiny city-states. Also because of the comparative ease of doing business in both cities, Western MNCs tend to pile money there, making them extremely expensive to do business in.

Oh and I can't stand it when people keep talking about Asia's exploding middle class. The simple fact is the vast majority of the population is still poor. Even if you doubled their income overnight they won't be taking 2 additional plane trips a year. The USA, despite their problems - the bottom 25% of the population can still afford to buy a plane ticket. The bottom 25% of India and China are probably wondering how to finance their next meal.

A senior executive of a large bank in Singapore once said that if Singapore's credit card minimum income (of S$30,000 income from work per year) was applied to India, less than 20 million Indians would qualify for a credit card. This is less than double the combined populations of Singapore and HK.

Wow - the number of Indians who can claim income of S$30,000 per year from work is less than the entire population of Australia! Or 1.6% of the population spread across Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore, Chennai, Hyderabad, Pune, Calcutta..........

Of course the middle class in Asia is growing and companies should take advantage of it. However so many companies (not just Western ones, but also Singaporean ones from experience) go into INdia and China, fail, then wonder why the 1.5b Chinese and 1.2b Indians couldn't keep them afloat.

[AlphaLord]

Asia is a geographic region.
When including Australia its(sometimes) called Australasia
Perhaps Oceania would be a better region of inclusion
All this is nonsense really.
There are probably more Asians (or of Asian descent)in Australian than there are in Singapore.
Is it really that important ?
Trivia drift~ The thread topic is......?

[Worrals in the wilds]

However so many companies ... go into India and China, fail, then wonder why the 1.5b Chinese and 1.2b Indians couldn't keep them afloat.

I can't speak for China but in my limited experience Indians buy Indian stuff, watch Indian movies and support Indian products. The average dude driving a tuk tuk has a very fuzzy concept of the world outside India and doesn't fly anyway, but even posh Indians are quite insular. They make Yanks look worldly. Posh Indians also expect 150% quality service, because that's what they're used to at home where there are four waiters for every diner. I can't see Qantas being able to achieve that with a LCC when they currently can't even manage reasonable service with a premium carrier.

It's really difficult to do business across cultures. It's not impossible, but the Jetstar Pacific debacle in Vietnam doesn't inspire confidence. Babes in the Rainforest seems more like it. :hmm:

[TIMA9X]

AlphaLord
Trivia drift~ The thread topic is......?Yes & No, I see your point, but it is all relevant considering AJ announced (reconfirmed yesterday 24th) he was making 1000 Aussies redundant from an 90 year old well established airline to venture off to Asia, somewhere, and start a new Australian airline V4, which may or may not carry the name Qantas.

I think what DrPepz is saying, even the Asians have trouble dealing with Asians but AJ thinks it's all going to be OK.. He may come a cropper making this decision. Meanwhile, 1000 Australians and their families become displaced, probably many of them (with great talent which took years to develop) forced out of the industry forever. Is that not a waste of fine Australian talent, again? If Qantas gets away with this, there will be an avalanche of off-shoring in other sectors suddenly, dragging our country down to the levels the UK is in now.

It's not a new thing, and it's all been done before, remember what happened to BA & Go Fly 10 years ago, no off-shoring was involved then, but it never got that far, Rod Eddington stopped it and sold off GO Fly before it destroyed BA .

Big call LC & AJ, but I suppose lemmings never learn.

[Ka.Boom]

If you have ever seen Leigh Clifford talking to a subordinate you will understand who and what he is.A more arrogant intellectual elitist you will never meet.
This is why Qantas is going the off shore route.Clifford also believes that those who failed with their LCC simply didn't know what they were doing.
He is about to prove that he will triumph where others bit the dust.
After all he is the smartest guy in the room....just ask him

[JDI]

Xenophon speech
For those who haven't seen it, Senator Xenophon's speech of 23rd Aug is reproduced below.

Senator XENOPHON (South Australia) (19:37): I rise to speak tonight on an issue that is close to the hearts of many Australians, and that is the future of our national carrier, Qantas. At 90, Qantas is the world's oldest continuously running airline. It is an iconic Australian company. Its story is woven into the story of Australia and Australians have long taken pride in the service and safety standards provided by our national carrier. Who didn't feel a little proud when Dustin Hoffman uttered the immortal line in Rain Man, 'Qantas never crashed'?

While it is true that Qantas never crashes, the sad reality is that Qantas is being deliberately trashed by management in the pursuit of short-term profits and at the expense of its workers and passengers. For a long time, Qantas management has been pushing the line that Qantas international is losing money and that Jetstar is profitable. Tonight, it is imperative to expose those claims for the misinformation they are. The reality is that Qantas has long been used to subsidise Jetstar in order to make Jetstar look profitable and Qantas look like a burden. In a moment, I will provide detailed allegations of cost-shifting that I have sourced from within the Qantas Group, and when you know the facts you quickly see a pattern. When there is a cost to be paid, Qantas pays it, and when there is a profit to be made, Jetstar makes it.

But first we need to ask ourselves: why? Why would management want Qantas to look unprofitable? Why would they want to hide the cost of a competing brand within their group, namely Jetstar, in amongst the costs faced by Qantas?

To understand that, you need to go back to the days when Qantas was being privatised. When Qantas was privatised the Qantas Sale Act 1992 imposed a number of conditions, which in turn created a number of problems for any management group that wanted to flog off parts of the business. Basically, Qantas has to maintain its principal place of operations here in Australia, but that does not stop management selling any subsidiaries, which brings us to Jetstar.

Qantas has systematically built up the low-cost carrier at the expense of the parent company. I have been provided with a significant number of examples where costs which should have been billed back to Jetstar have in fact been paid for by Qantas. These are practices that I believe Qantas and Jetstar management need to explain. For example, when Jetstar took over the Cairns-Darwin-Singapore route, replacing Qantas flights, a deal was struck that required Qantas to provide Jetstar with $6 million a year in revenue. Why? Why would one part of the business give up a profitable route like that and then be asked to pay for the privilege? Then there are other subsidies when it comes to freight. On every sector Jetstar operates an A330, Qantas pays $6,200 to $6,400 for freight space regardless of actual uplift. When you do the calculations, this turns out to be a small fortune. Based on 82 departures a week, that is nearly half-a-million dollars a week or $25½ million a year.

Then there are the arrangements within the airport gates. In Melbourne, for example, my information from inside the Qantas group is that Jetstar does not pay for any gates, but instead Qantas domestic is charged for the gates. My question for Qantas management is simple: are these arrangements replicated right around Australia and why is Qantas paying Jetstar's bills? Why does Qantas lease five check-in counters at Sydney Terminal 2, only to let Jetstar use one for free? It has been reported to me that there are other areas where Jetstar's costs magically become Qantas's costs. For example, Jetstar does not have a treasury department and has only one person in government affairs. I am told Qantas's legal department also does free work for Jetstar.

Then there is the area of disruption handling where flights are cancelled and people need to be rebooked. Here, insiders tell me, Qantas handles all rebookings and the traffic is all one way. It is extremely rare for a Qantas passenger to be rebooked on a Jetstar flight, but Jetstar passengers are regularly rebooked onto Qantas flights. I am informed that Jetstar never pays Qantas for the cost of those rebooked passengers and yet Jetstar gets to keep the revenue from the original bookings. This, I am told, is worth millions of dollars every year. So Jetstar gets the profit while Qantas bears the costs of carriage. It has also been reported to me that when Qantas provides an aircraft to Jetstar to cover an unserviceable plane, Jetstar does not pay for the use of this plane.

Yet another example relates to the Qantas Club. Jetstar passengers can and do use the Qantas Club but Jetstar does not pay for the cost of any of this. So is Qantas really losing money? Or is it profitable but simply losing money on paper because it is carrying so many costs incurred by Jetstar? We have been told by Qantas management that the changes that will effectively gut Qantas are necessary because Qantas international is losing money but, given the inside information I have just detailed, I would argue those claims need to be reassessed.

Indeed, given these extensive allegations of hidden costs, it would be foolish to take management's word that Qantas international is losing money. So why would Qantas want to make it look like Qantas international is losing money? Remember the failed 2007 private equity bid by the Allco Finance Group. It was rejected by shareholders, and thank goodness it was, for I am told that what we are seeing now is effectively a strategy of private equity sell-off by stealth.

Here is how it works. You have to keep Qantas flying to avoid breaching the Qantas Sale Act but that does not stop you from moving assets out of Qantas and putting them into an airline that you own but that is not controlled by the Qantas Sale Act. Then you work the figures to make it appear as though the international arm of Qantas is losing money. You use this to justify the slashing of jobs, maintenance standards and employment of foreign crews and, ultimately, the creation of an entirely new airlines to be based in Asia and which will not be called Qantas. The end result? Technically Qantas would still exist but it would end up a shell of its former self and the Qantas Group would end up with all these subsidiaries it can base overseas using poorly paid foreign crews with engineering and safety standards that do not match Australian standards. In time, if the Qantas Group wants to make a buck, they can flog these subsidiaries off for a tidy profit. Qantas management could pay the National Boys Choir and the Australian Girls Choir to run to the desert and sing about still calling Australia home, but people would not buy it. It is not just about feeling good about our national carrier—in times of trouble our national carrier plays a key strategic role. In an international emergency, in a time of war, a national carrier is required to freight resources and people around the country and around the world. Qantas also operates Qantas Defence Services, which conducts work for the RAAF. If Qantas is allowed to wither, who will meet these strategic needs?

I pay tribute to the 35,000 employees of the Qantas Group. At the forefront of the fight against the strategy of Qantas management have been the Qantas pilots, to whom millions of Australians have literally entrusted their lives. The Australian and International Pilots Association sees Qantas management strategy as a race to the bottom when it comes to service and safety. On 8 November last year, QF32 experienced a serious malfunction with the explosion of an engine on an A380 aircraft. In the wrong hands, that plane could have crashed. But it did not, in large part because the Qantas flight crew had been trained to exemplary world-class standards and knew how to cope with such a terrifying reality. I am deeply concerned that what is being pursued may well cause training levels to fall and that as a result safety standards in the Qantas Group may fall as well. AIPA pilots and the licensed aircraft engineers are not fighting for themselves; they are fighting for the Australian public. That is why I am deeply concerned about any action Qantas management may be considering taking against pilots who speak out in the public interest.

A lot of claims have been made about the financial state of Qantas international but given the information I have presented tonight, which has come from within the Qantas Group, I believe these claims by management are crying out for further serious forensic investigation. Qantas should not be allowed to face death by a thousand cuts—job cuts, route cuts, quality cuts, engineering cuts, wage cuts. None of this is acceptable and it must all be resisted for the sake of the pilots, the crews, the passengers and ultimately the future of our national carrier.

[Tankengine]

Dragon Man,
I think you are correct in your memory, I voted NO in that vote.:E
However discrimination laws I understand may mean the clause was meaningless.:(

[QAN_Shareholder]

Senator XENOPHON (South Australia) (19:37): I rise to speak tonight on an issue that is close to the hearts of many Australians, and that is the future of our national carrier, Qantas. At 90, Qantas is the world's oldest continuously running airline. It is an iconic Australian company. Its story is woven into the story of Australia and Australians have long taken pride in the service and safety standards provided by our national carrier. Who didn't feel a little proud when Dustin Hoffman uttered the immortal line in Rain Man, 'Qantas never crashed'?

While it is true that Qantas never crashes, the sad reality is that Qantas is being deliberately trashed by management in the pursuit of short-term profits and at the expense of its workers and passengers. For a long time, Qantas management has been pushing the line that Qantas international is losing money and that Jetstar is profitable. Tonight, it is imperative to expose those claims for the misinformation they are. The reality is that Qantas has long been used to subsidise Jetstar in order to make Jetstar look profitable and Qantas look like a burden. In a moment, I will provide detailed allegations of cost-shifting that I have sourced from within the Qantas Group, and when you know the facts you quickly see a pattern. When there is a cost to be paid, Qantas pays it, and when there is a profit to be made, Jetstar makes it.

But first we need to ask ourselves: why? Why would management want Qantas to look unprofitable? Why would they want to hide the cost of a competing brand within their group, namely Jetstar, in amongst the costs faced by Qantas?

To understand that, you need to go back to the days when Qantas was being privatised. When Qantas was privatised the Qantas Sale Act 1992 imposed a number of conditions, which in turn created a number of problems for any management group that wanted to flog off parts of the business. Basically, Qantas has to maintain its principal place of operations here in Australia, but that does not stop management selling any subsidiaries, which brings us to Jetstar.



This is beyond delusional, to paraphrase this argument:

Qantas international is hugely profitable, and there is a queue of foreigners desperate to buy it, but they can't because of the Qantas Sale Act. So management want to shift it all offshore so then it isn't covered by the act and it can be sold.

In reality the part of Qantas that is attractive to any foreign airline would be the domestic business and frequent flyer, and it is kind of difficult to shift the domestic business offshore.

[The The]

This is beyond delusional, to paraphrase this argument:

Qantas international is hugely profitable, and there is a queue of foreigners desperate to buy it, but they can't because of the Qantas Sale Act. So management want to shift it all offshore so then it isn't covered by the act and it can be sold.

Bollocks QAN_shareholder.

Where does he say Qantas International is hugely profitable? I think he says they shift profit around.

Where does he say there is a list of foreigners desperate to buy? I think he says the reason they shift profit around is to bypass the Act, enabling the pursuit of short term gains by "pumping and dumping" segments of the business.

I'll agree with you on one thing, QF domestic and FF, is where the real money ends up. But both rely significantly on QF international. J* aint worth $hit.

[packrat]

"This is beyond delusional, to paraphrase this argument:

Qantas international is hugely profitable, and there is a queue of foreigners desperate to buy it, but they can't because of the Qantas Sale Act. So management want to shift it all offshore so then it isn't covered by the act and it can be sold.

In reality the part of Qantas that is attractive to any foreign airline would be the domestic business and frequent flyer, and it is kind of difficult to shift the domestic business offshore. "
This whole business about off shoring is about driving down wages and conditions.To justify offshoring mainline is shown to be unprofitable.But forensic accounting suggests otherwise since mainline as an entity is not defined in accounts.Further Jetstars costs are being apportioned to mainline pushing down profitabiltiy.
Air New Zealand suffers from the same competition and the same end of line status that beleaguers Qantas~they prosper why can't Qantas?

[ohallen]

The major difference between ANZ and QF are management and what motivates them.

QF is a good case where incentives rule the decision making process.

This whole episode is shameful and the constant talking down of the brand deceptive.

The Senator should be congratulated for his integrity and consistency in trying to expose the whole QF deceptions.

[ampclamp]

The August 24th big news was announced early ONLY because they did not want a doubling of profit announced on the same day as cutting 1000 skilled jobs. Psst, we remember :=

[Dixons Millions]

Hey, just come out. Tell us, why don't you. Like a swinging Leprechaun, happy with his lot in life, announce, "I am screwing you...!". Do you really believe the BS he and your cohorts espouse to this intelligent bunch of people here, and the wider public, will work? It won't. But if AJ, LC, GD, PG, Singo and all the other "in house" buddies do win this battle, not only will 30,000+ lose their jobs, but you will too QAN...but I guess you won't care. Stupid me...pocket your millions and go screw the next Icon.... Whom of the above are you, DH?

[Centaurus]

but the Jetstar Pacific debacle in Vietnam doesn't inspire confidence

There have been several instances on Pprune where Jetstar Pacific gets a rubbishing. Yet nothing specific apart from people saying it is a disaster. With Virgin Australia (according to the media), having lost millions yet no rubbishing there. What seems to be the problem with Jetstar Pacific?

[600ft-lb]

What seems to be the problem with Jetstar Pacific?
Glad you asked.

None of these words are by myself, its all been reported in the media so here goes.

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/en/travel/9216/jetstar-pacific-now-thirsty-for-capital--general-director.html

In order to keep periodic engine maintenance and implement the plan to charter and purchase more aircraft, Jetstar Pacific (JPA) needs some 55-60 million dollars. JPA commits to pay all the debts to Vinapco prior to July 31, said Le Song Lai, General Director of JPA, who is also the Deputy General Director of the powerful State Investment Capital Corporation (SCIC) which specializes in making investment in enterprises with state’s capital.

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/en/business/10429/business-in-brief-11-7.html
The Vietnam Air Petrol Company (Vinapco) has accepted Jetstar Pacific’s gradual payments for overdue fuel bills as the low-cost carrier has tried to pay some of the VND173 billion (around US$8.4 million) it owed the locally-dominant jet fuel supplier.

Vinapco general director Tran Huu Phuc told the Daily on the phone on Thursday the country’s second largest airline had transferred more than VND40 billion (some US$1.94 million) to the company and promised to clear the arrears this month.

As Jetstar Pacific has not paid off the debt, Vinapco forces the airline to prepay more than VND3 billion (over US$145,000) for the jet fuel it needs every day for its aircraft to perform around 40 daily flights on domestic routes.

then theres the issue of illegal LAME sackings

Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Pilot training and airline safety including consideration of the Transport Safety Investigation Amendment (Incident Reports) Bill 2010: Submissions Received (http://aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rat_ctte/pilots_2010/submissions.htm)
submission 49 - page 7-8 and attachments 4, 5 and 6 for the background on airworthiness issues at J*V and illegal LAME sackings.

oh and going way back

The two Qantas executives found themselves at the centre of the diplomatic storm in Vietnam after Jetstar Pacific lost $US31 million on fuel-hedging contracts in 2008. The names of Marsilli and Freeman - as the chief operating officer and chief financial officer - were on the contracts.
Airlines regularly enter hedging contracts to stabilise the volatile cost of jet fuel. But Vietnam is a country that is only slowly opening the door to capitalism and where the loss of money at a state-owned enterprise - even a relatively small amount - can be a capital offence.
Throughout most of their ordeal, Marsilli and Freeman had no idea when they would be free to go or whether they would be held personally responsible for the losses at Jetstar Pacific. Although interpreters were provided, they did not have access to lawyers at some interviews.
Qantas says the ''commercial package'' referred to by DFAT was a heads of agreement, which gave a ''commercial framework governing the expectations'' of the two shareholders and their continuing involvement in Jetstar Pacific. It will not reveal further details because they are ''commercial-in-confidence''.

One of the cables deemed ''commercial in confidence'' - dated June 4, 2010 - details an email conversation about a letter received from the SCIC. That same day Australia's ambassador to Vietnam, Allaster Cox, met Vietnam's Finance Minister, Vu Van Ninh. The SCIC answers to Vietnam's Finance Minister.
Less than three weeks later, Qantas and the SCIC, the majority shareholder in Jetstar Pacific, reached the agreement on the ''commercial package'' that would help lift the travel restrictions on the Australian pair.
Then, on June 29 last year, a ''confidential'' DFAT cable shows Marsilli and Freeman fronted a meeting before a two-star general, Tran Trung Dung, and a colonel, both from Vietnam's feared secret police.
''Having concluded their assistance with the investigation, the two Australians were advised by the Vietnamese authorities … that they were free to depart,'' states a DFAT document on June 30, 2010.

I hope you're still not wondering why Qantas has announced ZERO extra aircraft for this Vietnam operation.

Watch them languish with 2 A320s and 4 B734's.

Welcome to Asia, Qantas!

[my oleo is extended]

One of the cables deemed ''commercial in confidence'' - dated June 4, 2010 - details an email conversation about a letter received from the SCIC. That same day Australia's ambassador to Vietnam, Allaster Cox, met Vietnam's Finance Minister, Vu Van Ninh. The SCIC answers to Vietnam's Finance Minister.
Less than three weeks later, Qantas and the SCIC, the majority shareholder in Jetstar Pacific, reached the agreement on the ''commercial package'' that would help lift the travel restrictions on the Australian pair.
Then, on June 29 last year, a ''confidential'' DFAT cable shows Marsilli and Freeman fronted a meeting before a two-star general, Tran Trung Dung, and a colonel, both from Vietnam's feared secret police.
''Having concluded their assistance with the investigation, the two Australians were advised by the Vietnamese authorities … that they were free to depart,'' states a DFAT document on June 30, 2010.
And this is just a taste of what Asia has to offer Westerners who dont play by their rules, remember, Vietnam plays softly compared with China and Singapore.....Good luck Leprechaun, you need all you can get.

[fdr]

So then we open up the 2011 Qantas Return to the ASX....

"what was in there?"

"steak!"

"and I gave it to Jetstar!"


"Nooooooooo.... !"


Ultimate Dog Tease - YouTube

No I digress. Sorry.

Reset.

http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/investors/preliminaryFinalReport11.pdf


So anyway...

then we look at a bit of the detail...

So.. QFA Intl =BAD (according to AJ) "lost 200m"

yet: the book figures are adjusted for depreciation of...
Depreciation and amortisation (1,124) QFA (thats 1.124 Billion)

and

QFA still gets a 228 Million underlying PBT.
But QF "Intl lost 200m", therefore QFA domestic made.... 428m. After 1.124 billion write off for depn...

QF domestic is a neat little business apparently, can do wonders with a fleet that is smaller in capital investment than.... JETSTAR.

Again, QF International underwrites all the depreciation of note, covers the investment in infrastructure and equipment, and is then claimed to be a loss leader.

I would think that this constitutes at the very least misrepresentation of the facts, given recent public statements. I wonder if it is actually a far more serious obfuscation of the facts by the officers and directors of this company that have statutory duties in relation to their exalted positions.

Just curious as to what it takes to get the ASX and ACCC motivated in this town.

QF Frequent Flyer... great business.... sell liability of the airline reward program and make a profit at it... good work if you can get it. Perhaps QF should just shut it's doors and sell FF points for say... SQ or CX... at least AJ would get his ROI working to his satisfaction.

QF Freight... Well for a fleet of... 4 B737 and 1 B763, wow, that is a great return. Perhaps QF should just get out of the pax ("no money in freight") program and just rent underfloor with... SQ/CX/MS etc.... as apparently the QF international cannot pay it's own way..., Oh right... AJ wants to kill the available uplift already. Pity I thought these were original bad thoughts, not even close.:ugh:

[Callicutt Kid]

600ft/lbs.

Aircraft complement at Jetstar Pacific is 5 B737 and 2 A320.

The bar girls and the local hangout are not happy because all the pilots are working flat out with 5 B737 all serviceable(Few APU's missing),Airbus short of crew. There not drinking beer and playing pool with them all too tired.Not like the old days.
19 pilots resigned/ran away in the last 6 months with more to follow.Ship is listing but with new management on the way it might stem the tide and normal beer drinking/pool games will back in place.

[600ft-lb]

Everyone can see the HUGE depreciation/amortization costs associated with the failing mainline.

Qantas has leased 9 A330's to Jetstar Intl Ops.
Qantas has leased 5 A320's to Jetstar Dom Ops.

A330-200's have a list price of $200million.
A320's have a list price of $85million

Depreciation is over 20 years in Qantas.

If Jetstar had to pay the depreciation 'costs' on their balance sheet, of the A330's roughly 9 x $10million = $90 million / year the underlying EBIT looks a bit sad.

If Jetstar had to pay the depreciation 'costs' on their balance sheet, of the A320's roughly 5 x $4.25million = $21 million / year the underlying EBIT looks even sadder.

$169million - $111million = $58million If the same standards of depreciation were applied to the Jetstar balance sheet as they are to the Qantas balance sheet.

I don't claim any level of accuracy here please point it out to me if I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected.

Of course it makes sense to put the aircraft on the balance sheet for depreciation purposes on the side of the group which benefits the group as a whole I don't dispute that, I do dispute if the above is the case and it's being used as an industrial tool to drive down wages.

[Captain Gidday]

if any retrenchments were needed of pilots that all the over 58s would have to go first. Can anyone confirm this for me?
Nope, sorry to dash your hopes, Dragon Man. As I recall, there was a clause in that LOA that over 58s would be retrenched before any pilots younger than 58, but it only applies to those pilots [under 58] who were employed by QF at the time of the vote. Many hundreds of pilots who are not subject to this clause have been hired since that vote, so these 'new hires' will be 'first off' before the over 58s.

[TIMA9X]

The momentum is strong and supportive from the public. Talkback radio appear to be strongly on the staff's side.

These days we have social media, check this out, made by a young concerned Australian who supports all of the Q staff.

jjGZdSmT9Hw

Made me feel good that this person contacted me for help, and cared enough to take the time to do it, he is 15 years old and all his idea.

.

[Collando]

Here's an idea ! How about a shareholder motion for the next AGM be put forward to have an independent forensic accountant to have unfettered access to audit qantas in regards to the allegations of cross subsidisation accounting practices, reporting back to unions and management simultaneously. The way I see it, if the management have nothing to hide then the shareholder will have peace of mind that the management are not being uneconomical with the truth and can put to rest union suspicions of cost shifting. The management have made statements that this has not occurred so they should have nothing to lose. The shareholders have nothing to lose except hearing the truth which surely most would want to know. If the management have nothing to hide then this is a win win situation for them. If not, well ................................
Certainly it is a win win situation for shareholder.
What do you all think?

What does it take to get a motion up?

If it doesn't get up then it's almost an admission that there is something to hide !!!!

[Dixons Millions]

Too late, I think.... All had to be tabled by Th 25th to be allowed as a motion on 28th Oct AGM... do stand to be corrected tho...

[Angle of Attack]

fdr,

Agree totally with your post but

QF Freight... Well for a fleet of... 4 B737 and 1 B763, wow

Dont forget the fleet of Atlas Air Contract 747's hauling around worldwide under QF flight numbers, they also contribute to the freight figures, and rumour has it 744's may be going to EFA from next year!

[1a sound asleep]

I bet the freight includes cargo carried in the International pax fleet that supposedly lost $200M. I bet QF FF never paid proper prices for redeemed fares either....

Loss of $200M - ad back the losses due to volcanoes, earthquakes etc PLUS freight PLUS underpaid FF fares PLUS underpaid use of fleet on domestic routes PLUS compensation paid for late delivery of A380/787 orders PLUS JQ underpaying for QF services and international would have made a profit

[TIMA9X]

Qantas loses altitude due to brinkmanship (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-loses-altitude-due-to-brinkmanship-20110826-1je5d.html)

Alan Joyce is a diminutive character with a broad Irish brogue, a lilting accent combined with an easy charm. There's no doubt he is confronted with a monumental challenge, what with wildly fluctuating fuel prices, a competitive onslaught from heavily subsidised carriers from Asia and the Gulf, fickle demand and an uncertain global economy.
But the longer he continues with this strategy of trash-talking Qantas, the more he runs the risk of damaging his own credibility and that of the airline.
Take his angry outburst on Wednesday at the press conference to announce the results. Long-haul pilots had accused him of cost shifting within the company, that Qantas international was subsidising Jetstar operations, a claim repeated by Senator Nick Xenophon.
According to Joyce, that was ''in line with the moon-landing conspiracy theory that we didn't land on the moon''.
''It's in line with Elvis is alive and well and serving in a McDonald's somewhere in Manly. Qantas subsidising Jetstar is another one of those great conspiracy theories.''
A simple denial would have sufficed. Let's face it, everyone knows Elvis is working in a pizza joint on the Grand Parade in Sans Souci. Just as everyone knows that every company cross-subsidises costs from various divisions when it suits them.


and this,
Qantas is a fully integrated airline. It has domestic, international and budget operations all run through a single frequent-flyer rewards system. It should have integrated back-office systems. If it hasn't, the question needs to be asked - why not?

International passengers flying into Australia are directed onto Qantas domestic or Jetstar flights. The notion that Qantas international somehow is a stand-alone operation is ludicrous because it would be impossible for the company to operate without it.

Earlier this month, Joyce unveiled his ''five-year plan'' for Qantas, a high-risk push into Asia with two new airlines - a domestic operator in Japan and an upmarket full-service carrier in south-east Asia.Exactly where that will be has yet to be decided. Perhaps Kuala Lumpur. Maybe Singapore. The paucity of detail would suggest this merely is an idea, not a concrete plan. Again, this may simply be part of the broader threat against the unions with projections of 1000 job cuts.

Qantas's previous thrusts into Asia have been less than spectacular. Jetstar Asia, based in Singapore, only recently managed to edge into the black, six years after it was established. And its internal Vietnamese operation, Jetstar Pacific, has been a nightmare, financially and politically. my bold

Read more: Qantas loses altitude due to brinkmanship (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-loses-altitude-due-to-brinkmanship-20110826-1je5d.html#ixzz1W9GNXDdk)

Now the media is starting to get the message, this is very encouraging, it's in the Saturday press, the biggest day of the week for newspaper business stories :ok:

enjoy.
.

[manfred]

An interesting article that I don't think has been posted here before:

Knowledge Today - Qantas branding: does the maths add up? (http://blogs.unsw.edu.au/knowledgetoday/blog/2011/08/qantas-branding/)


Also comments from Andrew Bolt's readers on Janet Albrechtsen's article, the readers (who are very conservative), aren't exactly all behind her point of view:

Qantas struggles to fly with its unions on board | Herald Sun Andrew Bolt Blog (http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/qantas_struggles_to_fly_with_its_unions_on_board/)

[Nudlaug]

Qantas ad campaign spends millions on self hatred | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/27/qantas-spends-big-on-self-denigration/)

Way too many good quotes in this article to post em, you need to read the whole thing..... Nailed it!

And this CEO is accusing the employees of trash talking the brand, what a joke! I have never ever seen a management team that has done more damage to its own brand than this lot, absolutely astounding that it is allowed to go on!

[bandit2]

They seem to be able to find the money for these ads, pretty quickly don`t they. It`s interesting to read they`re still pusing the same BS. Everytime I see these ads, I believe it`s a sign that they`re struggling to keep up & the negative publicity is hurting them. Thank you Bob, Nick, ALAEA, TWU & AIPA & to all those people behind the scenes. Thank You again.

[Take five]

Because there are no facts, there is no truth, just data to be manipulated
I can get you any result you like....what's it worth to ya?
Because there is no wrong, there is no right
And I sleep very well at night
No shame, no solution
No remorse, no retribution
Just people selling t-shirts
just opportunity to participate in this pathetic little circus
And Winning, Winning, Winning' "

It was a pretty big year for predators
The marketplace was on a roll
And the land of opportunity
Spawned a whole new breed of men without souls
This year, notoriety got all confused with fame
And the devil is downhearted
Because there's nothing left for him to claim

Says It All Really

[fishers.ghost]

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/08/27/1226123/542589-richard-woodward.jpg
Warning: Qantas Pilot Richard Woodward at Sydney International Airport. Picture: Anthony Reginato Source: The Sunday Telegraph



A HERO pilot who has flown for Qantas for 14 years predicts the possible death of the airline if it moves its business to Asia.

Richard Woodward, an A380 captain, said pilots were devastated by the plans for a move and fears the brand is fast losing its sparkle.
The 56-year-old, who lives in Avoca on the central coast, said: "The road to Asia is paved with the tombstones of companies that have tried and failed and we don't want Qantas to be one of them.
"I see a situation where one of the most recognised brands in the world is shrinking and moving offshore and there is potential for it to become a shadow of its former self."
The pilot, who has been with Qantas since 1987, said of the airline: "It's the spirit of Australia. There is a real emotional attachment to the brand. That will be lost and everything Qantas stands for and what customers want and expect."


Qantas long-haul pilots voted 94 per cent in favour of taking industrial action against planned restructuring.
"That was a sign the pilots were very frustrated and wanted to do something about it," said Mr Woodward.
"They were looking at the prospect of their airline shrinking and their careers going down the gurgler."
Mr Woodward, who started his aviation career with a scholarship to train with the air force, won an air force cross for saving 47 people in one day from a flood. He now flies long-haul to London and LA.
"I have had a wonderful career in aviation in Australia. It's been very good to me. We are in a situation where maybe 180 200 of our pilots are going to be made redundant.
"I feel very strongly for those young pilots, I feel they should have the same opportunity that I had."
He said there was anger over the release of figures which said the airline had doubled its net profit to $250 million.
"The pilots were asking why we have to make people redundant when it is posting profits," he said.
When he first started with the Qantas in 1987 on the classic 747's, he flew all over the world, "We went to Honolulu, in Hawaii, Johannesburg in South Africa, Harare in Zimbabwe and all over Asia."
Woodward said the service and the fact the airline was such a strong symbol of Australia was what made people keep coming back to use it," he said.
When people get on the plane and they hear the Australian accent they say 'It's good to be home.' The crew say, "we've still got thousands of miles to go' and they reply 'it doesn't matter, we are on an Australian aeroplane, we are home.' It is so good to hear that."

[fishers.ghost]

If the Capt started in 1987 it would mean he has been with Qantas for 24 years....not 14 years

[booglaboy]

Just another small example of how they are deliberately running down qantas international. I have 3 jetstar cabin crew-Thai based, paxing on qantas from bkk to Mel before they operate jetstar from Mel. Who pays? Jq? No way! Qf supports so much of Jq it's scary.

[Captain.Que]

Well done Richard.It takes a great deal of courage and integrity to speak out under these circumstances

[TIMA9X]

Mods, sorry for the repetition, but for the record, I believe this video deserves a place on this thread as well. It was aired the night before the 24th but for some reason we were unable to watch on the 7.30 report website (until now, good to watch if you missed it.) I have tried to record all the media lead up/on the 24th (on this thread) so we can view what was said with the hope management said something that may come back to bite them.. Trust that this is OK, as I know many on here may have been out of the country when all this stuff happened.

8_UtqLbp90w


.

[KAL__Aviator]

A HERO pilot who has flown for Qantas for 14 years predicts the possible death of the airline if it moves its business to Asia.

I know of a couple of more heroic ex naval carrier Captains who have heaps more experience and I'm supposed to listen to their predictions of an airline ops? Based on plain gut feel? That others had failed and Qantas will fail too?

"I feel very strongly for those young pilots, I feel they should have the same opportunity that I had."



Well, young lads today, can no longer have what aviation used to offer. Anyone seriously think that any airline management will even remotely consider a pilot's career in their planning is either delusional or pathetic.

When people get on the plane and they hear the Australian accent they say 'It's good to be home.' The crew say, "we've still got thousands of miles to go' and they reply 'it doesn't matter, we are on an Australian aeroplane, we are home.' It is so good to hear that."

That probably constitutes a small minority, judging from the growth achieved by foreign carriers like EK, CX, SQ etc. I know some of aussies who swore they will never take another Qantas flight if there's an alternative of the above mentioned carriers. Reasons? Cabin and ground service. And Qantas management is the one that should be blamed for the lack of services provided?

I feel sorry for the fact that there isn't a compelling and convincing argument so far from the pilot side. Do you seriously think that Qantas pilots's image is that strong that it holds an extra premium for AJ to sacrifice his big fat bonus?

Capt Woodward rightfully earned profound respect for what he had achieved previously. But to put him up for media for such sensational rebuttal without providing some supporting factual numbers, I'm afraid you hardly catch attention of most fence sitters. I do hope you folks can come up with something real soon, real quickly.

Don't bother trying to shoot the messenger, nor trying to call me a company stooge. I'm far from ever coming close to this part of the world apart from my regular layover with my even more inferior job but pays for what's left of my sad little remaining life.

[1a sound asleep]

I know some of aussies who swore they will never take another Qantas flight if there's an alternative of the above mentioned carriers. Reasons? Cabin and ground service. And Qantas management is the one that should be blamed for the lack of services provided?

Why Australians are abandoning Qantas?

1. Qantas fares are often higher than other premium carriers
2. Other airlines using new planes with greater comfort
3. Other airlines offer 1 stop to many destinations that are 2/3 stop on QF
4. Perceived safety compromises with history of recent accidents/incidents
5. Rip Off QF FF - excessive charges and too hard to book
6. People are sick of the brand trashing
7. Fed up with being dumped on to JQ for connecting flights
8. 23kg baggage limit verus 30kg on Emirates in Y

Just maybe if Management admitted that 99% of the above is QF management fault then just maybe QF employees would be a little more symapthetic

Management to blame for

1. Greed and trough feeding
2. Wrong Fleet
3. Allowing JQ to sabotage QF
4. Wrong Fleet purchases
5. Ripping of passengers
6. Not investing in core International Product
7. Poor Route Planning
8. Total arrogance
9. Lack of leadership at every level
10. Pissing off shareholders and putting their own benefits first

Its about time the press trashed the management of today and the past 10 years instead of trashing the airline and its pilots/employees

The current share price is dramatically LESS than the cash reserves and nett assets of the airline. BUY SOME QAN SHARES AND TAKE CONTROL BY VOTING OUT MANAGEMENT AND THE BOARD

[Ngineer]

Management to blame for

1. Greed and trough feeding
2. Wrong Fleet


When the fleet choice decision was made a few years back it makes me wonder if it was the wrong choice for the airline, or maybe the right choice for their leasing business that may have benefited if QF was eventually spun off (post private equity). The GAAM team could have benefited handsomely.

IE; I wonder if there were other motives for the fleet choice.

[Worrals in the wilds]

From Saturday's full page ads, I particularly loved the 'faceless evil Union dudes destroying your beloved Qantas' who were represented by a generic Getty Image photo of blokes with their arms crossed shown from the neck down. :suspect: I guess it's supposed to show that...they're FACELESS. :}
Honestly, it made ALP election ads look positively subtle.

Most non-aviation people I talk to don't care about the Qantas As Icon so much, but they think that the 'Unavoidable Australian Job Losses + BTW there's a $500m profit' sounds a bit suss.

What sort of business takes out full page ads to say how their business strategy isn't working? Once again, there was no mention of the product. The same paper had ads for Etihad, Singapore, Emirates etc with glamourous photos of exotic locations, cute hosties and reasonable prices via Dar Es Salaam et al. If you were a newly arrived alien on Earth reading a copy of the paper, apart from the generic 'aircraft tails at airport' shot you'd be confused about what Qantas actually does.

It's a bit like running a bar and taking out an ad saying 'we're neck deep in yobs and our drink prices are through the roof. Also, our toilets smell. By the way...choose us'! :confused::}

[DirectAnywhere]

Worrals, I think that photo was actually of Barry Jackson, Steve Purvinas, Tony Sheldon and one(?) other. It was taken in Canberra a couple of weeks ago and then the heads were photoshopped out for the QANTAS ad.

I thought it was a strange photo at the time - the "tough" unionists, arms crossed in Canberra. They looked like Joe McDonald of CFMEU fame. I'm not surprised QANTAS used the photo!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Photo was Barry and three TWU Officials. Wasn't Sheldon and I.

[Gingerbread]

Gents, just had to recap to "aviation expert" Geoffrey Thomas interviewing Peter "I know which side my bread is buttered" Harbison on the genius of the 2007 MBO proposed by GOD - sounds familiar I think:

"Qantas Deal is Do or Die, Says Think-tank

Source: The Australian Author: Geoffrey Thomas 01/12/2007
Subject Concerned: Government (http://en.carnoc.com/cache/subject_1.html) Opinion (http://en.carnoc.com/cache/subject_3.html) Airlines (http://en.carnoc.com/cache/subject_5.html)
The ambitious $11 billion buyout bid from Airline Partners Australia (APA) to take Qantas private will succeed, if only because of the dire consequences of failure, the region's leading aviation think-tank says.

Centre of Asia Pacific Aviation founder and executive chairman Peter Harbison says "the consequences of failure are too grotesque to imagine.

"If the deal is knocked back, there would be a massive loss of confidence and the share market would bale out of the stock sending the share price below last year's lows."

On January 11, Mr Harbison warned that Qantas is a child of regulation, and as that protection is removed through liberalisation so it would progressively wither on the vine.

"This is an international trend and beyond the control of the Australian Government, even if it wanted to prevent change," he said. "In the face of this evolutionary process, Qantas would be lucky to survive another 10 years in its current form.

"It would contract into a domestic airline and eventually be taken over by one of the post-2010 multinational airlines."

It has been Qantas's sluggish share price and the airline management's futile pleas to the Australian Government to ease foreign ownership restrictions to give it greater access to foreign capital at lower interest rates that set up the conditions for the buyout bid.

Many airline analysts, including Mr Harbison, believe that the share market, conditioned to quarterly reporting, does not understand the long-term nature of the airline market and Qantas's high standing in the global airline market. That lack of understanding is also reflected in the Roy Morgan research poll which found that a small majority of Australians did not want the buyout to proceed but that sentiment was based on the false premise that Qantas is either government-controlled or 100 per cent Australian-owned.

Mr Harbison added that there are many reasons why the Qantas buyout should be given the green light.

He says greater airline liberalisation is coming, particularly in Asia, and Qantas needs to be able to access capital to implement its strategic push into Asia.

"The Airline Partners Australia investors may be money-hungry, but stupid they are not - they see the international emerging opportunities in much the same light as Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon does," Mr Harbison said.

"Their 'patient equity' - as APA chairman Bob Mansfield describes it - unconstrained by quarterly analyst scrutiny and therefore able to take long-term strategic positions, allows APA to make more aggressive financial plays, where such moves would see slumps in a listed Qantas's share price."

And it would appear that the Australian Government would be struggling to attach any meaningful conditions to the deal.

Earlier this week, Australia's Deputy Prime Minister and Transport Minister Mark Vaile said on ABC-TV that "on the commercial side of things it's a bit difficult to put overly restrictive requirements on (the deal), but certainly it would be in the national interest to maintain a high level of skill in the aviation industry in Australia".

However, Mr Vaile hinted that conditions might be applied similar to those imposed when Air New Zealand acquired Ansett Australia in 2000 - namely, that Ansett remained based in Australia, kept regional routes and did not reduce skilled employment. As it turned out, those conditions were utterly meaningless when the airline went into bankruptcy.

Not well known was an Ansett-Air New Zealand plan drawn up in May 2000 to abandon all intrastate and regional routes in Western Australia to stem savage losses.

While leading analysts, such as Mr Harbison, are backing the deal, there is enormous heat being applied to Qantas from around Australia by federal and state politicians and tourism bodies clamouring for better services from the airline.

However, the reality is that the public and the Government, as happens elsewhere in the world, believe that the "national airline" or any airline is a public utility with a duty to provide services when, where and at whatever price the sometimes unforgiving public demand.

Leading the charge for the public utility argument have been politicians in the Australian state of Victoria and Queensland, with Tasmanian politicians pitching in late this week for services to be increased or at least protected.

Not well understood is that the Qantas of today and its ability to serve Australia is in many cases a legacy of decisions taken - or not taken - in the 1990s.

Analysts point to the fact that the airline has withdrawn from European cities such as Rome, Athens and Paris because it doesn't have aircraft such as the 300-seat 777-200ER, which are perfectly matched for the passenger demand on those routes.

Qantas in fact is the only major long-haul airline that does not have a 300-seat jet in its fleet.

The airline's management in the 1990s was also slow to install seatback videos for all passengers, which is thought to have cost business.

Current Qantas chief Geoff Dixon took over in 2000, and with current chief financial officer Peter Gregg and general manager John Borghetti has moved aggressively to reposition the airline at the forefront of innovation both operationally and in market positioning with the launch of low-cost Jetstar.

Qantas has the second-largest order of 20 of the giant 500-seat A380 and is the second-largest customer for the 270-seat 787, with both aircraft slated for delivery in mid-2008.

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission and the Foreign Investment Review Board are examining the Qantas deal on a range of complex issues, including the cross-ownership of Sydney Airport by bid leader Macquarie Bank and examination of how the bid parties have acted. The reports from both bodies to the Australian Government are expected late next month.

Treasurer Peter Costello will consider the case on national interest grounds, but the review may take some time. In 2001 Costello took six months to reject the bid by Anglo-Dutch oil giant Shell for Australia's Woodside Petroleum. (Australian dollar is the currency used in this report unless otherwise stated)"

Enough said.

[WorthWhat]

If the above doesn't give you nightmares, the following should.

The insight contained in Sandilands' latest Plane Talking article is breathtaking.Using the precedent set when Qantas sets up (hypothetically) a China based enterprise, …the Qantas Asia project could totally destroy Qantas, and Virgin Australia; because (any) such reciprocity would set up unlimited access by Asia or China…(to) Australia-America and Sydney or Melbourne to London.Source: http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/29/what-happens-when-the-asian-carriers-retaliate-with-australia-based-international-entities/ (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/29/what-happens-when-the-asian-carriers-retaliate-with-australia-based-international-entities/)
.

[Capt Colonial]

Unfortunately the reality is that the best efforts of the team at the AIPA are having little effect on Qantas Corporate Management and regardless of the "tripe" posted continuously into the media by Qantas Corporate and (New Chairman Lounge) Australian journalists, the Pilots supporting industrial inertia is being lost and individuals such as Mr. Xenophon will have little chance to force a review of Qantas Corporate behavior into the future.

The time to act industrially is Now! However the catch is the aircraft need to stop rolling on tarmacs to heighten the awareness of the junior Pilots future and associated unions’ plight. The catch is that this plays directly into Joyce / Clifford and Oldmeadow's evil industrial Plans.

Alas as time moves on the lay of the environment industrially, at this time, is becoming a boring rhetoric stalemate, however the Qantas Corporate Egomaniacs are still edging towards their Industrial Objectives and those of us within the skirmish can only watch events unfold on a daily basis with little to zero industrial proactive action available. Ties, PA’s and PIA to date, although creating a little media attention and discussion are not working to stop the Qantas Corporate Industrial Mechanism from moving forward.

No one really seems to care about the share-price other than a cursory “Oh, it’s now down there now”! As a shareholder I am stunned by the Corporate Greed and detachment from reality of Clifford, Joyce and the Qantas Board, yet they seem untouchable by Individual and Commercial shareholders to date.

The full tragedy is only just unfolding industrially for the junior Qantas Mainline Long-Haul Pilots. The EBA LWOP provisions are at best draconian and leave little leverage for any possible future return after three years outside Qantas. Consider if you will the larger picture that and once the bottom 180 Pilots are ousted the next 180 will move too (if not earlier) as the bottom of the Qantas Pilot lists on a shrinking fleet and shrinking route base is not the place to be in Airline Aviation.

This will save Qantas millions $$ in potential payouts as the Pilots skip the industrial leverage for retrenchment payments and packages and move early to the New opportunities throughout World -Wide Airline Aviation employment.

The next mammoth cost to Qantas Mainline Long-Haul will be when Pilots begin "bumping" Pilots through Fleet Shrinkage and through the Pilots EBA Seniority system adding to the costs of the Mainline Long-Haul operation and creating the resentment that comes from such industrial mechanisms.
According to Joyce we are in the First phase of this restructuring of Mainline Long-Haul Qantas, the Second Phase given the programmed Five Hour transits in BKK for a BA flight to London will not be far away!
Some 55 year old Captains are hedging their bets that they will make 60 years of age prior to the total collapse of Mainline Long-Haul. The best bet is about Five-Years. Some 45 year old Captains see the future as a "shot duck" with the slow bleed of Mainline-Long-Haul operations and no relevant future as they will be on the wrong side of the employment curve if they do not move now as Captains!

There is likely to be left a small International entity of A380’s and at best some B-744-400ER’s that is the shell for the Qantas Corporate Headquarters overseeing multiple cellular Jetstar Operations across the globe and giving Qantas Corporate Accountants the Qantas Board a greedy free-ride into the future.

Alas, the AIPA team need a revelation, be it Political, Industrial or an Australian Public uprising and they need it right-now!

I pray they have the ultimate solution (and yet to be released) otherwise time has just about run out for the Pilots in this Industrial battle.

The loss of a future by our young Professional Aviators is inexcusable as a trade-off to Asia and Corporate Greed the further unpalatable tragedy is that Australians are now losing their Aviation heritage, Flag Carrier and Aviation icon as well!

[Poto]

Thomas, Harbison, Expert....... One of these things is not like the other two. Can anyone work out which is the odd one out?;)

[Condition 1]

Many of us are writing to out local Members. I hope you Manly dwellers are doing the same!

[Worrals in the wilds]

Fair enough on the photo; I stand corrected, thanks.
It looked too corny to be true. :}

[Keg]

Hmmm Plane Talking coming up with a 'database error'. I can sniff the conspiracy already! :E

[Nudlaug]

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/29/what-happens-when-the-asian-carriers-retaliate-with-australia-based-international-entities/

What happens when the Asian carriers retaliate with Australia based international entities?

August 29, 2011 – 9:48 am, by Ben Sandilands

There is a ‘problem’ with the Qantas pursuit of an Asia based premium carrier to provide new connections between Australia and Asia, within Asia, and between Asia and Europe, namely the expectation of far reaching reciprocal benefits in Australia.

It could cost Qantas, and for that matter Virgin Australia, their investment in Australia-America flights.

Qantas is asking Singapore, Malaysia and China to host a Qantas financed and directed carrier that would require recognition as a Singaporean, Malaysian or Chinese flag carrier in order to fly beyond their borders to other states.

But what if those states make participation in their international markets by an Australian airline enterprise claiming to be a Singaporean, Malaysian or Chinese flag carrier conditional on reciprocal participation in the US-Australia, or South America-Australia or even future Australia-Europe non-stop markets by similar entities operating as Australian flag carriers?

Basically, it means that the cost of the Qantas Asia project could be to totally destroy Qantas, and Virgin Australia as a collateral casualty, because such reciprocity would set up unlimited access by Asia or China directed Australia based carriers to the non-stop Australia-Europe market once the technology to make such ultra long range flights viable is perfected, which is an inevitability in the medium term.

In fact Singapore Airlines could tomorrow finance and direct a Singapore-Pacific Airline notionally owned 51% by an Australian entity, and apply for an allocation of flights on the Australia-US routes under the term of the open skies agreement between Canberra and DC, because that agreement sets no limits on national flag carriers or capacity at either end.

However not all of the routes a Qantas directed entity based in Singapore, or Malaysia or China are as wide open in terms of air traffic agreements as Australia-America.

And this is where it is important to note that air traffic access is not negotiated by carriers but governments, meaning that it is the governments of Singapore, China and Malaysia who have to consider their national interest in allowing an Australian financed and directed operation to assume the rights, privileges and obligations of carrying their flags, and their trading partners, who have to decide whether they would accept such an entity as truly Singaporean, Chinese or Malaysian.

They will neither give away, nor recognize, those rights for nothing.

The fact that Australia allows 100% foreign ownership of domestic operations, and is notably liberal in allowing international access to its gateways, is not going to cut any slack if, for example, Qantas were to fantasise about its China based carrier kicking open the door to vastly more traffic rights into Europe as a China flag carrier compared to the more limited opportunities Qantas has an Australian flag carrier under the Australia-EU treaty.

This is about Australia to the world, but wrapped in the flag of Singapore, China or Malaysia, and not about Australia domestic or Singapore Airlines or Hainan Airlines operating flights from Australia as Singapore or China flagged carriers.

It is about, for example, a reciprocally Australia based China directed carrier using the precedent set when Qantas sets up (hypothetically) a China based enterprise once the technology delivers versions of the Airbus A380 or Boeing 777, or whatever, that can fly right over China going non-stop from Sydney or Melbourne to London, because, after all, the Qantas-China operation will also be able to fly non-stop to Rio de Janeiro or the post 2030 mining boom towns established in Antarctica if it survives that long, which is implausible.

It is a fair bet, given the superb and visionary achievements of Qantas managements this century, that Qantas hasn’t considered exactly what its target Asia states for the new venture would seek in return for it being free to set up shop and get done over in its attempts to carve itself a slice of their international air travel markets.

The six year record of Jetstar’s adventures in Asia are irrelevant to anything that smacks of an Australian directed airline claiming a place in their long haul links to Europe or North America. Yet this is what Qantas is after, because Joyce said in multiple interviews, that the new Asia based carrier would give Australia new links to Europe.

These issues are a reminder that doing business in Asia is a long game, not a short game, and that the Qantas approach to these matters is so shortsighted and lacking in rigor that it would end in its destruction, a fate not unknown to ill-conceived short term Australian business forays into Asia and China.

It should also be a reminder that the qualities needed to successfully deliver an Asia strategy as recently outlined by Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce are not evident in his company, which has dismally failed to manage staff engagement, fleet strategy, product and networks, and left its shareholders without dividends for three years.

There is something deeply unsettling about the direction of Qantas in seeking Asianisation when it cannot get the fundamentals of being competitive in long haul operations right, and persists in blaming others for its failure to stop customers fleeing en mass to competitors with better and more relevant single airline links to Europe and the UK.

If the Asia based premium carrier fails to get off the ground, where will that leave a company that has justified hacking into its long haul full service operation to focus more on the Asian markets, deliberately driving even more customers over to the likes of Singapore Airlines and Emirates?

It will be a lot of pain for no gain. And among the obvious consequences of such a failure would be its coming under siege from an opportunistic buy and split up bid, or totally renewing its management.

[wateroff]

Chaser - Qantas 51 per cent Home - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ABh6S2rTFc&feature=youtu.be)

[DirectAnywhere]

I stand corrected Steve (ALAEA FedSec). Thanks.:)

[Sunfish]

Mr. Harbison has published his views on Qantas at the link below:

I only wish to comment on one matter he has raised. If it is true, then Qantas is in a deeper mess than I thought.

Harbison has reported that Mr. Joyce said :


“In Asia we have a plan with the launch of our new full-service airline to really turnaround the economics of the existing operation and to add more destinations and frequencies to the existing operation, which we think creates a rising tide,” Mr Joyce said. “That plan gets us to a sustainable position within Asia to have a very valuable network we need for our corporate accounts in the biggest, fastest-growing and most profitable aviation market in the world.”

..........As for the carrier’s product, it is promised to be a “very exclusive, executive jet-type style operation that we believe very much will have a strong capability of working in this market,” Mr Joyce said. “There are a lot of airlines around the world getting into this space.”



1. At least the article and Mr. Joyce appear to acknowledge that Qantas is losing money in Asia.

2. The idea of targeting the high net worth leisure traveler and the corporate market as Lesley Grant apparently referred to in the briefing is "interesting".

It's interesting to me because I recall the same sentiments being advanced by the then owners of Crown Casino - they were going to target the "High Rollers", and invested hundreds of millions of dollars in golf courses, Rolls Royces, lavish apartments and God knows what else to lure these whales to their gambling tables.

...There was only one problem with that; the whales knew they were whales. They were very picky because they knew every other casino in the world was after their custom. They played one Casino off against the other. Crown went broke and Kerry Packer bought it for a song.

So what has this got to do with Qantas?

Simple really, why do you think that mega rich Chinese are going to favor Qantas over the other offerings in this market? Where are you going to get the sensual young blonde, Mandarin speaking, Europeans to do the cabin service? You did say you were going to launch a premium product in China right?

Furthermore, guess where groceries and petrol are cheapest in Australian Capital cities? Here is a hint, its not in the poorest parts of town. The rich are picky and they are good at sniffing for bargains.

But wait there is more; how is the Board and Senior Management of Qantas going to get its head around reconciling the contradictions and circumlocutions inherent in running one airline for the rich and another for Australians, who they will no doubt shortly regard as the poor white trash of Asia?

This "premium" airline gambit in my opinion, is clutching at straws and pinning the company's fortunes on a desperate gamble to grab at the same market segment that everyone else will want.

The question for me know is whether the big shareholders or the company financiers nerves will break first. I note that National Bank has now become a substantial shareholder in Qantas. This is not a good sign. Merv Lincoln, God bless him, has been proved right time and again.



Qantas profit doubling and strategic developments overshadowed by change resistance | Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation - CAPA (http://www.centreforaviation.com/news/2011/08/26/qantas-profit-doubling-overshadowed-by-change-resistance/page1)

[NNB]

why is it that the QF board appoint an Irishman to be their spokeman?
Everything that comes out of his mouth comes across as an "Irish joke" Under his stewardship an internationally recognised, iconic Australian brand is relegated to a name share some where in Asia.
sad times indeed...!!!:ugh:

[WorthWhat]

AA Spins off favoured son.American Eagle is not expected to surrender its status as an affiliate member of Oneworld, despite its owner having given notice that it wishes to spin off the business, by selling stock to existing shareholders or separately to another party. (Aviation International News)Will no doubt help AA reequip its cash strapped mainline business.American has said that there is no reason why the regional should not continue to provide it with short-haul feed traffic to its five cornerstone U.S. hubs–services that will preserve the affiliate membership of the alliance.

[ejectx3]

...international division lost approximately AUD200 million (USD209 million), putting the mainline domestic division’s profit at AUD428 million (USD447 million) – a staggering figure for a country with a population of 22 million.

Try substituting "totally unbelievable" for "staggering"

[fatcat69]

Could everyone please do me a favour and refer to the correct profit figures.

As we know the accounts are audited and therfore beyond question !!!!

And the real profit last year is



“Operating cash flows grew to $1,782 million, an increase of 32 per cent on the prior year result of $1,351 million”
http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20110824/pdf/420l5cs8mtnq60.pdf (http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20110824/pdf/420l5cs8mtnq60.pdf)
:D


You see a company does not pay bills with an EBIT it pays bills with its cash flow. So not the tiny figure of $500M we earn real hard earned $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ after all tax's and costs wages fuel interest leases and everything to do with Jetstar we still made nearly $1.8 BILLION dollars a year.

Be proud of that figure because this is what they are after. We hold over $3B in cash and make nearly $2B a year, run the share price down to the value of the cash by creating a fight with everyone, talk down the brand and then steal it for less than its worth in cash and one years cash operating profit.

thats the real game here !!!!!!! :=

Ohh and guess what Jetstar makes as a contribution to the $1.8 BILLION ......... less than $200m and then minus the subsidies already exposed more likely a negative cash contribution.

This is the real story, no matter how they try and hide the truth, cash flow is king.

I asked 6 year old child last night a question. If you had a four engine plane burning 190 Ton of fuel and a two engine plane burning 110 ton of fuel and you paid for each engine hour seperatly which one would you make more money with !!!!! He answer correctly, shame he is not the CEO !!!!

:ugh:

[Mr Leslie Chow]

I can see this guy applying for something somewhere soon...

Chinese Pilot refuses to allow mayday aircraft land ahead of him (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/chinese-pilot-ignored-mayday/story-fn3dxity-1226125630279)

I am guessing Chief Pilot??

[TIMA9X]

0WtWgKv6qP0





Now that a bit of time has passed since the 24th announcement this video from the good senator is well worth a review.

[ejectx3]

hadn't seen that thanks......

[Lex Talionis]

Here's an idea.

Why don't all QF staff get together and form a group to buy the airline and I mean Qantas not Jetstar.

If Qantas is losing so much money and Jetstar is not being subsidised (obviously it is not because they have said so :E) then they should be happy to sell Qantas and to an Australian group so that the Qantas act is not compromised.

If Jetstar is such a stand out performer then they can concentrate on that and good luck to them.They can set up Jetstar to every country they want and rid themselves of such a big problem that they tell us Qantas is.

[TIMA9X]

If Jetstar is such a stand out performer then they can concentrate on that and good luck to them.Sure, It would be great if there was Q staff buy out, would be so much better than this current lot running the place. enjoy :)

Mx8fQOTRPdQ

[ejectx3]

Best one yet!

[Fris B. Fairing]

What knucklehead thought that this was a good idea?

http://www.adastron.com/aviation/vault/spirit-of-entertainment.jpg

With IFE featuring prominently in customer complaints someone thought it was smart to equate the way ahead with 1930s View-Master technology. It's right up there with the iSelect ads (are we a health fund?) which in effect tell us "do business with us because our CEO is a total fool". :yuk:

[TIMA9X]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-MEZnyt5JpjM/TmA7YUCT5mI/AAAAAAAABOo/Q1yTjZxfB_8/s512/spirit-of-entertainment-2.jpg

Yeah, I don't know why they bothered using colour....

Now this just in, all of a sudden, AJ is upgrading the 744 fleet.... 12.14 pm smh. I am sure I remember AJ saying before the 24th, he wasn't going to invest any further capital in the "loss making" international business. Funny how thing change in a couple weeks, could it be he may be under some sort of pressure from his precious corporate clients?

Qantas has begun a $250 million project to bring its older Boeing 747 jumbo jets' interiors up to the standards of its Airbus A380 superjumbos.
The airline will upgrade the interiors of nine of its 747-400 aircraft, installing A380-style seats and improving in-flight entertainment.
“The new interiors will vastly improve the flying experience for tens of thousands of Qantas passengers every year,” CEO Alan Joyce said in a statement.

Read more: Qantas 747s get $250 million for superjumbo-style upgrade (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-747s-get-250-million-for-superjumbostyle-upgrade-20110902-1jp8u.html#ixzz1Wl5ntEq6)

[noip]

Sorry, no conspiracy there.

The upgrade of the 9 744s has been planned for some time. They are the aircraft that will be kept - the last three Rollers delivered in the late '90s and the 6 ER aircraft delivered 2003 - 2005 or so.


N

[Jackneville]

Yeah Baby, lets tart up the interiors !

How about getting rid of 1 & 4, a bit less sweep might also help.

[Romulus]

What knucklehead thought that this was a good idea?

With IFE featuring prominently in customer complaints someone thought it was smart to equate the way ahead with 1930s View-Master technology.

Nope. Someone thought it smart to align Qantas with the feel good emotions of childhood. Far more personal and social than some iPad/monitor looking thing that just plays videos and stuff.