Spanish ATC [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Jimmy Hoffa Rocks

9th Jun 2010, 08:33

Posting by LEVC copied

no shortcuts
" There is a non official war between the controlers and Jose Blanco, who is the president´s strong man, he is in charge of the "Ministerio de Fomento", thus , in control of AENA.
The controlers used to be civil servants, with all the benefits it implies (cannot be fired unless they really screw-up) and they used to have a very strong union.
Years ago, when AENA was already private company (although the major part is owned by the administration, but the management is private), they negotiated with the controler´s union the terms and conditions, which were quite a good arrangement for the controlers, this terms and conditions were suposed to be in force now, as any negotiation aproved by both parts and that is published on the BOE (public bulletin published by the administration regularly and where one can find all information related to public affairs).
But the goverment has the power of canceling this arrangements ifthere is a major situation were something has to be done in order to avoid major problems, this cancelation is suposed to be an exceptional measure, that is , not just because they feel like canceling it.
Using this legal tool, Jose Blanco has imposed by law (real decreto if I remember correctly) among other things, a salary cut of 30%, and the roster and scheduling of ATC falls now under AENA´s power rather than own managed by controlers as it used to be.
He has also imposed a reduction in the number of controlers asigned for each scheduled service.

What we are suffering now is the reaction of the controlers, since they cannot do a strike because this is a government imposed thing using the legal tool Imentioned earlier, and they would be fired if the do strike, they are doing their job "by the book", meaning they will not do anything that is not 100% under the rules , like reducing separation, even on VMC and both traffics affected reporting the other one in sight etc etc

I agree is not really nice to be burning extra fuel, or arrriving a bit later than we could, but on the other hand, I consider that what the goverment is doing to the controlers is not fair, and I am sure, in due time they will get their salary and conditions to what it was.

I hope I have been of some help to understand what is going on with spanish ATC¨

pitotheat

9th Jun 2010, 09:07

The standard of controlling in Spain, particularly Madrid, was well below standard long before the present dispute started. Whenever we as a company tried to bring up safety issues with AENA and the controllers they were always ignored because the local management have no ability to question the controllers. That is why MAD has one of the worst safety records, witnessed by high levels of ASRs, in Europe. They have been getting away with this for too long. On top of this the controllers have an unsustainable set of T & Cs. This may be the start of a complete overhaul of the system which will benefit us all in the end. If it is not carried out by this method then the most likely way these shortcomings are finally faced up to is after an aircraft accident where the cause can be squarely pinned on poor controlling. The good Spanish Controllers (of which there are plenty) want the present situation of poor controlling and nepotism ended. In the meantime for those of us on the receiving end we will have to be more patient and carry a little more contingency fuel.

manrow

9th Jun 2010, 09:21

Thank you Jimmy Hoffa Rocks, for the comprehensive explanation.

chevvron

10th Jun 2010, 09:12

Jimmy Hoffa Rocks:
I'm sure many aircrew appreciate the info you posted. Do you have any info for them about the proposed 'reduction' to FIS at some airports as this may affect their operations eg which airports?

tom775257

10th Jun 2010, 15:44

It was painful today flying from the UK to and from Malaga. Apparently the French are having some issues too, so we departed with a slot 40 mins late, all the way following flightplan exactly, apart from some delaying vectoring at Malaga.

On arrival in Malaga told we have a slot 1:50 from our time on stand. This was not able to be moved forward and had no direct routings until we spoke to London (was a welcome relief). Obviously this gave a heavy delay to the next flight outbound, which was going to Spain again... ughhh. The Spanish ATCOs told us as usual recently, no direct routings due to high traffic load on next sector or something like that.

10W

11th Jun 2010, 10:05

First off, I'll state that I don't condone any penalising of operators as a means of 'industrial action'. It goes against a controllers principle of getting the aircraft out of your airspace as quickly as possible ;)

That said, there are a few things which perhaps need some explanation.

TolTol

Was also denied a higher cruise level because we were filed at a lower level!! Totally unprofessional.

I would disagree. It is more unprofessional to not file the level you actually want to fly at.

When you file your plan in Europe, IFPS sends a copy to the Central Flow Management Unit in Brussels. This agency has details of all the European airspace sectors and their capacities. The CFMU takes your plan and calculates all the sectors you will penetrate, based on your planned route and levels. In some parts of Europe, for example the UK and Maastricht, these sectors are not only laterally divided but can also be vertically divided. The CFMU looks at the sector capacity against the demand and this then gives an indication of whether the airspace is going to be overloaded or not. This allows ATC to take appropriate actions to keep traffic at a safe volume. Funnily enough, this only works if the data being given is accurate.

Let's work through an example. You depart Northern UK and file at FL310. You're going down through the North Sea and at that level will enter London Sector 10 and then Maastricht Delta sectors. Both these sectors are within capacity and the CFMU calculates there is no problem and no slot required. Above those sectors, it's a heavy Westbound Transatlantic day and the sectors are already running at full capacity with slots being issued. You get airborne and decide you'd actually quite like FL370. The Scottish controller gives you this (in reality he wouldn't, but let's assume he does for illustration purposes) and you will now enter the airspace of London Sector 11 and Maastricht Delta High. Neither of these sectors were expecting you to be there, and nor were the CFMU. You also don't have a slot to be there but have circumvented that requirement. You're one aircraft, but you might be the one that tips it over the edge. Or you might be from an operator which has lots of departures around the same time going the same general direction who have all done the same (not inconceivable with a harp liveried airline for example). So now in addition to you, there are another 3 or 4 aircraft extra flying through an airspace which is already running at its safe capacity. The controller is overloaded, there is a small emergency, the RT loading is excessive, and he almost puts 2 aircraft together. The subsequent investigation reveals that the sector had an overdelivery of traffic and this impacted on the safety in the airspace. But at least you got an efficient cruising level that you hadn't filed :ok:

Controllers don't know the sectorisation of other ATC agencies down your route. They don't know if giving you a different level from that filed will cause problems somewhere else. Hence the campaign by Eurocontrol to ensure that ATC don't give unplanned cruising levels unless there are checks made first. Mostly however, it's not going to be possible to check and you'll stay at your flight planned level.

As an example of when it might be possible, if you're departing from the UK and Ireland and landing in the UK, Ireland, Paris area, or Amsterdam areas, then we might be able to do something for you. You make your request to ATC. The controller checks with the UK Flow Manager, who can then assess if the UK/Ireland sectors can accept the new level. If they can, then up you go. The reason that Paris and Amsterdam are included is because you will be descending prior to the UK boundary anyway and not at the new cruise level. Other European ATC agencies might be able to do similar things with their internal or adjacent airspace.

ab33t

This is crazy as we flew a route that normally takes us 2:10 almost 3 hours , speed restrictions, stars and and .........when is this going to end as well as we are now carrying an extra hrs fuel

Are you saying that you regularly flew a route with an hours less fuel than the flight plan demands simply because you normally always got the short cuts ? Probably illegal as well as dangerous. Short cuts should surely be seen as a bonus and planned on the basis you might not get them.

Beavis

Palma awkward today as well. No -5/+10 on slots. We called for push & start at CTOT -10 and were told we had missed slot. When questioned about the window, ATC 'reminded' everyone that the -5/+10 is at their discretion and it was not possible today.

The window is there solely for ATC use, to allow for taxiway and holding point congestion which might prevent an aircraft getting airborne at its Calculated Take Off Time (CTOT). ATC can, and often do, apply their discretion of course and use it to make up for operator shortfalls, but that's not ultimately what it is in place for. On that basis, pilots have no right to demand its application for their flight.

In the specific case you mention, I think you could argue that you would indeed probably have missed your slot. Palma has a published 'Taxi Time' in the CFMU database of 15 minutes. In other words you need to be 'off blocks' 15 minutes before your CTOT to make good that time. By your admission, you'd already eaten 5 minutes in to that and potentially are going to be a minimum of +5 on your slot before you even push back and start, let alone start your taxy. Maybe the controller decided that with your position on the airfield and the expected traffic and taxying instructions, that the only remaining 5 minutes of your slot window couldn't be achieved. Imagine if he was right and he'd let you taxy. He can't let you depart as you've missed your slot. He gets you a new one and it's 45 minutes from now. Do you take the taxy back of shame to stand and wait there ? Do you sit on the airfield remotely and burn fuel till it's time to depart ? Or remote park and shut down ? Does the controller look like a fool ? I only know the answer to the last one ... and yes, he does.

Do operators have the information on published taxy times ? I expect they do. Do they give this information to their crews ? It seems possibly not.

Mcbruce

Beavis, same happened to us a few days ago, called 8 minutes prior to CTOT

See above. You've even less leeway to make the slot than Beavis had.

We asked to climb above our filed level and told no, our flight plan capped us. Asked the next 2 sectors to be told the same. Another aircraft questioned it once they were refused too and told "we apply rules from our administrators". I assume this is some directive from eurocontrol about capacity in peak summer or is this how its going to be from now on?

Airspace was quiet and no aircraft occupied the level we wanted, so all in all, a waste of fuel, time and money.

See way above. Eurocontrol have published lots of explanation documents to ATC and operators about why. Read my example to see how it might apply in real life. The airspace you are currently in might indeed be quiet. The difficulties might be further down the line, which you have no way of knowing about, nor does your current controller.

The waste of fuel, time, and money could be easily resolved. Get your company to file the level you want :ok:

Lots of formal information and explanatory documentation about what I have tried to explain can be found here:

Eurocontrol Flight Plan and ATFCM Adherence (http://www.eurocontrol.int/dmean/public/standard_page/FPL_ATFCM_adherence.html)

There are also going to be a couple of Flight Plan Adherence campaign days in September run by Eurocontrol all across Europe. This probably justifies inclusion in Rumours & News. Full details on the website above.

Reimers

11th Jun 2010, 10:37

It is more unprofessional to not file the level you actually want to fly at.

While I do agree that the dispatch system in the US where there is close communication between the dipatcher and the flight crew has its advantages, this is not how airlines currently operate. So, if we refile in todays environment just for a slightly lower flight level for a short period, CFMU will certainly issue an outrageously late slot that no one can deal with, so we don't have the flight plan refiled but rather ask for a level change enroute. If we get it, fine. If we don't, usually a valid reason is stated and we do accept it. In spain, we never hear a valid reason, it is only "stand-by".

The window is there solely for ATC use, to allow for taxiway and holding point congestion which might prevent an aircraft getting airborne at its Calculated Take Off Time (CTOT). ATC can, and often do, apply their discretion of course and use it to make up for operator shortfalls, but that's not ultimately what it is in place for. On that basis, pilots have no right to demand its application for their flight.

Well, operators also need some flexibility. We provide a service for our passengers (real people), You cannot expect us to forecast precisely (to the minute) hours in advance when an aircraft might be ready. ATC is there to help airplanes operate in a safe manner, not the other way round (e.g. airplanes are there as something for controllers to play with).

10W

11th Jun 2010, 11:08

If we get it, fine. If we don't, usually a valid reason is stated and we do accept it. In spain, we never hear a valid reason, it is only "stand-by".

Which in itself is a reasonable position to take. But what is a valid reason ? Compliance with the Eurocontrol Flight Plan and ATFCM Adherence campaign is a valid reason to me, but is it something pilots would feel inclined to argue with the controller about ? Perhaps Spanish controllers just need to say 'Unable' ? End of story.

Well, operators also need some flexibility. We provide a service for our passengers (real people), You cannot expect us to forecast precisely (to the minute) hours in advance when an aircraft might be ready. ATC is there to help airplanes operate in a safe manner, not the other way round (e.g. airplanes are there as something for controllers to play with).

I agree up to a point. Which is why most controllers use the slot window to accomodate pilots where they can, or make alternative plans such as slot extensions , where able, to give the best service. It is certainly not a game and safety is the priority. Many controllers would be insulted if you suggested to them they are just playing some video game. However, the safety of the system cannot be guaranteed if everybody just ignores the rules and makes no attempt to comply with them.

The balance can change if that's what operators collectively want. A totally flexible system, but a less safe one, with more overloaded sectors and the chance of more incidents. The future however seems to be more based on trajectory based systems. That will require even greater degrees of accuracy than we have today, with 4D navigation required from pilots. You won't have to achieve tolerances of minutes, but probably in the order of seconds ;)

lederhosen

11th Jun 2010, 12:34

10W you put a good case forward for why adherence to flight plans is important. However in this case I think it misses the point. Our Spanish colleagues are not doing this to fix the system. They are doing this because it supports their dispute with the Spanish government to protect the kind of things that are ironically refered to worldwide in industrial relations language as 'spanish practices'.

Refusing short cuts in Spain when everyone else is giving them is pointless. We can also vary our speed to make up time. On a three hour sector this can easily equate to the difference the shortcut would have made, but of course burning more fuel.

Lets face it Spain is in serious financial difficulties and the pay of controllers is an obvious target. I do not think they will score many plus points when the true scale of what they are doing comes out.

If we were to total up the additional cost to the airlines of this work to rule over one year the figure would be immense, not to mention the environmental impact. It will probably make BP's disaster pale into insignificance. However right now it is literally below the radar as far as the general public are concerned.

Still there is an upside, as we say over here 'only block time brings money heim' (home).

10W

11th Jun 2010, 12:45

Thanks Lederhosen.

I agree Spanish ATC are doing it for all the wrong reasons hence my initial comment:

I'll state that I don't condone any penalising of operators as a means of 'industrial action'..

The company I work for (along with the other partner in its Functional Airspace Block) has an absolute commitment to reduce fuel burns for operators. That's why there are now things in place such as Night Time Fuel Savings Routes (NTSFR) and the Optimisation of Domestic, North Atlantic and European traffic flows (ODNET). I can't check the accuracy but the claimed savings are 14,800 tonnes of fuel and 46,800 tonnes of CO2 in 2009 for ODNET and 5,700 tonnes of fuel and 18,100 tonnes of CO2 per year for NTSFR. Every little helps :)

pitotheat

11th Jun 2010, 12:48

Some of the comments here demonstrate a lack of understanding on both sides of the R/T. Whilst the slot system and -5/+10 margin is for the management of the local ATC environment we as Pilots have been using this as taking up the daily delays of airport operations. So the obvious question is whether this present system is fit for purpose. It is a reality that on any given day that small delays in the very complex operation of preparing an aircraft for dispatch have to be accommodated by the system, equally if an aircraft is ready to depart earlier than schedule then it would seem ludicrous to keep it at the gate whilst the passengers and crew count down the clock. As is often the case when systems become more and more automated and computerized they become less flexible. We as an industry should not allow this to continue. There needs to be more operational awareness brought into these projects at the design stage to arrest this ever increasing problem of technology creating life less flexible and user friendly to us the users.
On another point regarding planned and actual flight levels. Obviously an aircraft operating FL is in part governed by it's planned take off weight. For a number of reasons, not least commercial, this planned FL may not be possible due to higher take off weights or a higher, more efficient, comfortable and faster FL may be possible due to lighter loads. In either case the system has to be able to deal with these situations and controllers should have some understanding of the reasons behind pilots asking for FLs other than those filed. Commercial awareness needs to be higher up all of our thought processes.

His dudeness

11th Jun 2010, 12:57

10W, allways nice to read between the lines of such posts as yours. Your organizations shortfalls (such as understaffing etcetc) are coming to light as RESTRICTIONS. We have to adhere to them. You often implement them on very short notice. If WE do that (eg. overfly CBs, avoid turbulence, take favor of better winds etcetc) then its bad, a big no-no. All the while we have to put up with ever rising fuel costs, ETS, etcetc.

Leeway to make a slot? Get a life mate....

ATC in Europe seriously needs reorganization. And all the people employed in ATC in Europe need to understand that they have a job because of their clients and NOT vice-versa.

zerotohero

11th Jun 2010, 13:00

Not read all the posts here but sounds about what I was thinking

I was in MAD this morning and had to ask tower on 15L to repeat my clearance to line up three times due poor radio manner,, the 2nd repeat was that bad I just decided to stop and start again from the beginning in very clear slow english to get it through that I needed it speaking clearly.

THEN! as we are in position and hold the same controller cleared the aircraft behind us to line up on 15R behind the departing traffic!, they ignored her while they just thought WTF I guess and so I told her she just cleared someone onto 15R behind us and we are on 15L, to which her response was, you have to wait in position ill call you!

They cant answer simple questions or respond to observations! they should all be sacked as there a danger to us and everyone in the sky, a CTAF would be safer there I bet.

if the Germans and French and Swiss and even the Italians can get English down and use it why cant the Spanish controllers! there a joke.

RAT 5

11th Jun 2010, 13:06

Curious about the -5/+10. The same is happening in Sweden, imposed by ATC management, I was told. Also I spoke to a flow controlter at Brussels and they assume we can get the -5 as SOP. The left hand & right hand being connected????? comes to mind.

BusyB

11th Jun 2010, 13:51

10W,

I appreciate the points you are making but a % of the time life doesn't work perfectly. Extended security checks, changes in Zero Fuel Weight on Freighters, weather changes all might mean delays or different Flight Levels.

I appreciate assistance from ATC and if you can't help a few words of explanation always helps.

Thanks in advance for our next receipt of your flexibility:ok:

criss

11th Jun 2010, 13:56

Some of you tend to think ATC staffing is the only reason for restrictions...

McBruce

11th Jun 2010, 15:38

10W, informative response, thank you for your input. We may had less leeway but we were parked adjacent the mid point of the departing runway on a self manouvering stand. It took us 5 minutes from start until take off run commenenced. ATC may see the bigger picture but on this day, the hold point was empty and we had a clear run down the taxyway so thats why this one stuck in my head and made me look on this forum to see if anyone else is having similar issues, to me it seemed they were penalising us by strictly applying their procedures when a month or so ago, this wouldn't have been a problem and we would've been underway within our CTOT. If we don't think we will make the slot then we request a new one or delaying action.

Bare with me as I only have a basic understanding on how the ATC network operates, as I understand our airline uses repetative flight plans and I don't think this system allows much in thought for aircraft weight/performance for optimum cruising levels, nor does it take into account various other factors that need to be applied on a day to day basis of operating the aircraft. Using the above system, then I doubt its feasible to apply such aspects to roughly 1300 plans per day. What it may lead too is operators filing at a higher level and us being capped by weight, which will just put strain on the upper levels predicted, and as you rightly said in your example, ATC ahead or CFMU won't know about it until we're airborne, of course, this is just an assumption but a view from the other side of the fence.

P.S. request runway 31! :E

chiglet

11th Jun 2010, 18:22

The French and Spanish controllers should take a deep breath......

TWO chances of them being sacked.....slim and none.....:(

ant1

11th Jun 2010, 18:37

What's all this moaning and groaning about Spain's ATC about? . I have no problem whatsoever with them. Mostly very nice people. My 3h ish legs must be pretty straight forward because I can barely gain 5 min out of those DCTs some miss sooo much.

After all this reading me thinks we sould be born with 20 eyes and 2 fingers, not the other way round.

I'm sure you moaners have all done a lot of reading to be able to sit on a thousands € armchair. You may even have read this (http://www.eurocontrol.int/dmean/gallery/content/public/Library/Adherence_brochure_Apr09.pdf)and this (http://www.eurocontrol.int/dmean/gallery/content/public/Library/Adherence_flyer_final_(July09).pdf)before.

Be water, fly safe and while groaning don't forget to look out the window (there's life beyond ATC)!

zerotohero

11th Jun 2010, 18:51

ant1

your missing some of the point I feel,,, its not a general moan about ATC in spain from me, its a moan about the Spanish Madrid ATC, most of the world is great, if not superb, but I would trust my wallet to a Gypsy before I trust my life to air tragedy in spain! there a bunch of useless ****s

goldeneaglepilot

11th Jun 2010, 19:01

In my opinion they are not the best in the world, having suffered an engine explosion - the crankshaft failed, taking two cylinders through the top cowling, destroying much of both the top cowl and lower cowl with debris hitting and damaging the tailplane, followed shortly afterwards by a small fire due to a petrol line being severed. All of this was at FL100, flying IFR in the airway. The fire extinquisher system worked but due to the damage the aircraft was not able to hold level flight, the best was about 300fps sink with full power on the good engine. When this was sorted a mayday was transmitted to Madrid, the response was "standby" after a delay of a couple of minutes I transmitted again and was told "standby" after another minute or so a passing British airways flight tried to relay the message, he too was told to standby. Transmitting on box two on 121.5 brought the same voice also telling me to standby. A few minutes went by and the emergency was acknowledged. And yes, I did change my transponder to 7700 before the first call.

A safe landing was made at a military airfield some 30nm short of Madrid (the aircraft was too badly damaged to make Madrid) where I enquired if there was another emergency going on with Madrid at the same time - I was told no, its normally like that as its so busy.....

Dave Clarke Fife

11th Jun 2010, 19:06

This may also have something to do with the refusal of 'direct to'..........................

EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM adherence (http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Feurocontrol.int%2Fdmean%2Fpublic%2Fstandard _page%2FFPL_ATFCM_adherence.html&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Frumours-news%2F414557-forget-about-saving-fuel.html)

Chesty Morgan

11th Jun 2010, 19:07

Is anyone one else slightly concerned with quotes like "burning all that extra fuel" and the like.

You are not burning extra fuel are you? You are burning the amount of fuel that the flight plan you have got in your hands says you will (within the tolerances of your flight planning system).

Any savings because of higher levels than filed or shortcuts or whatever are extra fuel in hand.

If you haven't got enough fuel to get you to your destination via your entire flight plan then I would question your ability to act as a commander of a commercial airliner.

ant1

11th Jun 2010, 20:46

zerotohero your terminating sentence smells, Hoo-ah! as Lieutenant Colonel Frank Slade would say.

Godeneaglepilot (BTW nice plane) sorry to hear that but one swallow doesn't make a summer ... I could tell you positive stories about well handled situations by Spain's ATC and also point out some others very badly handled by -supposedly- the cream of the crop. En todos sitios cuecen habas y en casa del vecino, a veces, a calderadas (you may want to Google that :E).

10W

11th Jun 2010, 22:20

His dudeness

Your organizations shortfalls (such as understaffing etcetc) are coming to light as RESTRICTIONS. We have to adhere to them. You often implement them on very short notice. If WE do that (eg. overfly CBs, avoid turbulence, take favor of better winds etcetc) then its bad, a big no-no. All the while we have to put up with ever rising fuel costs, ETS, etcetc.

OK, as a regular airline passenger, let's put it in context over the performance of the industry as a whole. That's the bottom line for me as a passenger who has to suffer the delays when I'm traveling. Along with millions of others, including the crews.

From the Eurocontrol annual CODA report for 2009 (which has information supplied by IATA), the following are the causes of delays:

Airline caused delays - 49%
ATFM delay - 25%

The rest is made up of Weather delays, Airport company & security delays, or Miscellaneous delays.

So through a passengers eyes, you and your colleagues (not just flight deck of course) are causing double the delays that every aspect of ATC are causing. If you break down the ATC side even further then you get the following:

ATC Capacity (i.e. more aircraft than can fit in the airspace system safely)- 37%
ATC imposed Weather delay- 27%
ATC Staffing - 18%
Airport Facilities - 11%,
Other - 3%
ATC Equipment - 2%

The staffing problems you allude to therefore create 18% of the overall 25% of delay in Europe. Or 4.5% of the overall European delay if my sums are right. As a passenger, I'd want someone to sort out the 49% caused by Airline operations as a higher priority than the 4.5% caused by ATC staffing !

That's absolutely not to say that ATC shouldn't be trying to improve their part of the problem, they absolutely should. The reality though is that the vast majority of ATC causes (64%), such as Weather or capacity, have little scope for improvement.

Weather will always mean a reduction in traffic flows simply due to the conditions and unpredictability of flight paths which means a greater volume of airspace is needed for each flight to ensure its safety.

Capacity can be tackled perhaps but there are limits in some cases due to restricted airspace (maybe due to military operations), or the excessive demand from operators who all plan to arrive and depart a single piece of tarmac at exactly the same time which simply can't be physically accommodated, or where the operators decide that the cost benefit of paying for improvements in capacity is simply not worth it. ATC providers work hand in hand with airline operators (your managements) to identify areas where improvements would provide most benefit, and to identify whether the cost of doing so is one which justifies the work being undertaken.

Leeway to make a slot? Get a life mate....

ATC in Europe seriously needs reorganization. And all the people employed in ATC in Europe need to understand that they have a job because of their clients and NOT vice-versa.

In spite of your tart reply, I'll always try to ensure that pilots get a safe and efficient service. I trust you will do the same for me as a passenger ?

You have a job because of everyone that travels. As do I. They are my indirect customers as well.

European ATC is indeed overdue a sea change which will solve some problems. I am just not sure that the European ideas such as SESAR and FABs being proposed will bring all the benefits that are being touted. If you think it is a panacea for all todays problems then I'm afraid I'll believe it when I see it. Weather and capacity can never be solved 100%. You also have severe difficulties to overcome in terms of sovereignty and security and the right of States to have military operations which are unhindered by civil aircraft. Unless you have a master plan that we could use ? ;)

In the meantime, what is being done about airline induced delays in the report ? :ok:

RAT 5

Curious about the -5/+10. The same is happening in Sweden, imposed by ATC management, I was told. Also I spoke to a flow controlter at Brussels and they assume we can get the -5 as SOP. The left hand & right hand being connected????? comes to mind.

I could almost guarantee that all UK controllers will use this window 100% of the time to make things work. If you get to the holding point 5 minutes early, then you'll be given take off clearance. And if you're running late, then the 10 minutes will be used to help you get airborne. In some scenarios, such as UK internal flights, we even have further agreements to pre-empt or extend the slots by -/+5 without reference to the CFMU in Brussels. For flights not requiring a slot, then flights can go early or late as well, within the parameters set down by Eurocontrol (-/+15 minutes).

As I keep saying, Spain playing it 100% by the book (or worse) for anything other than sound operational reasons is a folly and misguided.

Mcbruce

We may had less leeway but we were parked adjacent the mid point of the departing runway on a self manouvering stand. It took us 5 minutes from start until take off run commenenced. ATC may see the bigger picture but on this day, the hold point was empty and we had a clear run down the taxyway so thats why this one stuck in my head and made me look on this forum to see if anyone else is having similar issues, to me it seemed they were penalising us by strictly applying their procedures when a month or so ago, this wouldn't have been a problem and we would've been underway within our CTOT.

Fair enough. In the UK, you'd probably have got away without any hassle if the controller was on the ball and used experience to assess if you would make it or not. :ok: Perhaps Spanish controllers will read PPRuNe and realise that they would be better finding another way to fight their battle, if they are doing these things solely to try and make their point.

Bare with me as I only have a basic understanding on how the ATC network operates, as I understand our airline uses repetative flight plans and I don't think this system allows much in thought for aircraft weight/performance for optimum cruising levels, nor does it take into account various other factors that need to be applied on a day to day basis of operating the aircraft.

I understand someone was looking at removing the RPL system in Europe and requiring individual plans to be filed, but can't remember where I read it. That would resolve the problem perhaps ;)

Onwards and upwards !

BDiONU

11th Jun 2010, 22:21

I believe that 10W has called it absolutely correctly. Flow control is across the whole of Europe and takes into account route AND level. If you want a different level then file it and expect a slot accordingly. If you request en route then expect ATC to make enquiries, if they have capacity.
Expect things to become more onerous in future as 4D trajectories are forced through Europe by legislation and 'errors' are not well catered for in the ATM (Air Traffic Management) system.
ATC respond in accordance with the majority user wishes. If you want something outside of your company usual don't expect the controller providing the tactical service to respond instantly to your request. You need to be thinking pre tactically i.e 48 hours prior to flight.

BD

BDiONU

11th Jun 2010, 22:28

I understand someone was looking at removing the RPL system in Europe and requiring individual plans to be filed,
I believe the RPL system and database in UK died a death some 3 years ago. Now operators must file correctly, but do they? Given the posts in this thread and the number of FPL in UK airspace which are incorrect one must question the airlines as to having all of their sh1t in one sock.

BD

zerotohero

12th Jun 2010, 07:41

10W

In response to you long post whit stats and stuff,, all well and good, the bigger issue for me is THEY CANT SPEAK ENGLISH!

They really cant, they can manage standard phrases but maybe 35% of the time you have to repeat yourself as they don't hear you correct, maybe because there in Spanish mode from speaking to Iberia or Spanair and cant switch back to English easy, but they really really cant understand English.

The amount of times I have tried to ask some basic info other than can we descend and get an answer to a totally different question! I just look at the captain and say really whats the point.

They don't belong in that tower.

eagleflyer

12th Jun 2010, 19:58

statistics are just numbers with limited information if you don´t know how those numbers are put together. For example the 49% of delay caused by the airlines might as well include delays on later flights of the day that were caused by some ATC delay on the first sector of the day.

Henri737

12th Jun 2010, 21:17

Hi,

I take the level I want, if possible. Depents what is cheaper for the company or in the interest of flightsafety. In Spain it regularly happens you wil not get the filed level "due to flowcontrol" , wich should not be possible if received a CTOT and flightplan accepted: it's all politics.

I think traffic will not make the situation worse, but the civil servants (atco's and all those gays and girls working in (semi) state institutions) in the southern European countries wil, due to laboursettlements: they do not understand yet the financial state their countries are in, but eventually they will....:(

Mikehotel152

12th Jun 2010, 22:39

:rolleyes:

Mostly however, it's not going to be possible to check and you'll stay at your flight planned level

Amazing how the rest of Europe manages to do it on a daily basis.

Short cuts should surely be seen as a bonus

Naturally, and no-one should rely on them being granted when determining minimum fuel reserves, but requiring aircraft to fly full departures out of spite is equally unprofessional and, frankly, childish.

fireflybob

13th Jun 2010, 00:39

It must be catching - been to Malaga and back this evening and the French also were not granting any directs due "flow control".

maybepilot

13th Jun 2010, 01:26

Flying by the rule?

Next time I will question any speed reduction/increase which differs from what I've filed, I will question any re-routing due to "military area engaged" if my flight plan has been accepted the way I've filed it, I will not try to understand any spanish or frenchy SID/STAR/WAYPOINT names but only standard ICAO spelling, if the ATC R/T is of bad quality I will ask to say again until 5 by 5 quality achieved, I will not take anything less than level 4 english and will file a report anytime I feel that the ATCO on the other side of the mic doesn't have a safe english language level, I will not accept any clearance which contains more than one series of vital instructions (ALT or SPEED or HDG), I will refuse any radio relay if asked, I won't be able to report spot winds or MET conditions, I won't be able to vacate at specific early exits if asked, my taxi speed will never exceed 5-10kts, wherever possible I will not accept rolling takeoffs......

Just a few things we could do without really harming anyone and without damaging our companies noticeably, but we could give ATC a pretty hard time just like they do with us....will they fight for our T&C's then?
I think not.

Drex

13th Jun 2010, 03:11

maybepilot

I don't know if you are only referring to the current situation in spain. I totally agree with you on the first half of your post, but usually if I ask you a rolling take-off is to expedite the traffic flow, to help you avoiding delay, the same if I ask you to "expedite vacate" and so on. a met condition/wind report is good for other pilots.

Then pilots are able to "give ATC a pretty hard time" anyhow :E

criss

13th Jun 2010, 08:50

maybepilot, one word - LOL. You'd only harm yourself. Not accepting a rolling take-off to make ATC life harder :}, good one, you can also burn your fingers to make someone else suffer. I will gladly give 10 landings before your departure, not my problem.

Nightstop

13th Jun 2010, 09:40

Remember guys, standard speeds on MAD ILS are 180 kts at 12nm & 160 kts at 6nm, unless advised otherwise by ATC. Adhere to these, and then watch the chaos that ensues......

maybepilot

13th Jun 2010, 12:43

usually if I ask you a rolling take-off is to expedite the traffic flow, to help you avoiding delay, the same if I ask you to "expedite vacate" and so on

Not accepting a rolling take-off to make ATC life harder , good one, you can also burn your fingers to make someone else suffer. I will gladly give 10 landings before your departure, not my problem.

Read carefully my original post guys, I said "wherever possible" meaning that if my FMS says I will be ontime at destination then I'm not in a hurry so let 10 traffic land before me and 10 pile up behind.
Up to the nice Spaniards and Frenchmen ATCO's to deal with the traffic jam then.
An "expedite vacate" helps the ATCO not me really, so forget it.

Nightstop,
good one with the standard speeds in the MAD TMA, from now on they will be strictly adhered to.:E:E

Mikehotel152

13th Jun 2010, 12:56

An "expedite vacate" helps the ATCO not me really

which is why they thank you when you do it.

pitotheat

13th Jun 2010, 13:02

Nice try 10W but I think you will find the majority of the 49% attributed to the Airlines is code 93 (late inbound flight) which of course could be caused by any number of reasons including ATC.
We have gone off the point here anyway. There is no intention of using this thread as a means of getting back at individual controllers. The frustration is the wide level of ATC ability in Europe, Madrid perhaps being the poorest example. In addition, the ever increasing procedures being brought in that fail to take into account real world operations. This may be convenient for some Bureaucratic Erk sat in a comfortable office but it can not work. I also believe it could lead to a flight safety hazard as flight crew rush to be ready on time. Before all the sanctimonious comments come in about it being the Commanders responsibility to make sure all is safe just remember this will happen on the 4th sector of a long 4 sector day having gone into discretion the previous 4 days due to further ATC "work to rule" or new procedure compliance. Remember the crew are human as well.

criss

13th Jun 2010, 13:02

An "expedite vacate" helps the ATCO not me really, so forget it.

Nope, it helps other a/c.

Actions taken by Spanish ATCos are stupid and hurt users of airspace (a/c crews), but actions you propose are equally stupid, and in fact also hurt users of airspace (a/c crews), so they make even less sense.

maybepilot

13th Jun 2010, 13:06

which is why they thank you when you do it.

I get no thank you's in Spain, last time I just got a "lesson" on the discretionary application of the 15 minute slot window.
They are not even sending "ready messages" anymore, the most recent phrase is "contact your company for that".:yuk::yuk::yuk:

maybepilot

13th Jun 2010, 13:11

An "expedite vacate" helps the ATCO not me really, so forget it.
Nope, it helps other a/c.

If the spanish "work to rule" ATCO finds himself having to ask the preceeding A/C a favour to facilitate the traffic behind it means his "work to rule" actions didn't quite work the way he wanted....so let him solve the thing without asking favors to those he's been giving a hard time up to then.

criss

13th Jun 2010, 13:16

Working "to the rule" you have to vacate without delay, as that's what Madrid's AIP says.

Anyway, to work as a pilot or ATCo one needs some level of maturity, the argument started by Spaniards and followed by you seems a bit childish.

PS. If you decide to have an afternoon tea on the runway, it's not me going around.

maybepilot

13th Jun 2010, 13:42

Working "to the rule" you have to vacate without delay, as that's what Madrid's AIP says.

And I will do that using less flaps (more landing distance required and less fuel burnt), not using reversers (less fuel,less noise,more runway needed) and using more comfy brakes (less brake wear, more comfort for pax and more distance required)...all within the highest safety standards and without delay leaving the runway,I will just do it at the end of it:E:E:E

The level of maturity of some ATCO's in the south of Europe is directly proportional to their english level.

My 2 pence of advise?Just go on strike.

criss

13th Jun 2010, 13:49

The level of maturity of some ATCO's in the south of Europe is directly proportional to their english level.

So you say the best course of action is to be as childish as they are.

maybepilot

13th Jun 2010, 14:09

criss,

do you have kids?I do.

They don't learn when they are told, they learn the hard way.

Drex

13th Jun 2010, 14:09

maybepilot

not referring to the specific situation in spain, this is a typical situation in which a pilot is asked to expedit vacate:

"If you decide to have an afternoon tea on the runway, it's not me going around"

P.S.: do you feel more comfortable in italy?!! Mmmh (and I'm from italy)

maybepilot

13th Jun 2010, 14:28

Drex,

if you ask me to expedite vacate it's because ATC or someone behind me screwed up; what I do with my landing then is totally up to me.
If I decide to take it easy and safe and give myself every safety margin I deem necessary for my landing then nobody can question my decisions.

Not sure what you are on to with Italy however.

Drex

13th Jun 2010, 14:45

It happens, that even with right speed and distance, somebody is so slow vacating that seems to be in love with the runway...

about italy, I mean that it's strange that talking about spanish and also french ATC, nobody came out with italy!:E

ciaociao!

criss

13th Jun 2010, 16:14

Never mind

reamer

13th Jun 2010, 17:48

Whispering Giant,
Little off there with your figures.
The top 10 spanish atc guys got 900'000 Euro last year. 700 of them earned over 600,ooo
The basic pay is 370,000 Euro.

MarcoAER

13th Jun 2010, 18:01

First off, I'll state that I don't condone any penalising of operators as a means of 'industrial action'. It goes against a controllers principle of getting the aircraft out of your airspace as quickly as possible http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

That said, there are a few things which perhaps need some explanation.

[..]

Lots of formal information and explanatory documentation about what I have tried to explain can be found here:

Eurocontrol Flight Plan and ATFCM Adherence (http://www.eurocontrol.int/dmean/public/standard_page/FPL_ATFCM_adherence.html)

There are also going to be a couple of Flight Plan Adherence campaign days in September run by Eurocontrol all across Europe. This probably justifies inclusion in Rumours & News. Full details on the website above.

All this bunch of crappy rules ARE the reason why aviation is simply being KILLED in Europe.

The BASIC rule of ATC is to SPEED UP the traffic flow while helping mantaining separation. These complex and UNUSEFUL rules you post equal LONGER DELAYS and NOTHING ELSE.

I would send all these overpaid ATC divas to KDFW, KLAX or KJFK to actually learn to be a controller...

This is the way we do things in Europe.... make SIMPLE things.... HARDER!

criss

13th Jun 2010, 18:17

Good idea. I've learned proper RT and how to deal with pilots from some of the JFK controllers :}

criss

13th Jun 2010, 18:31

Who sent the DLA message?

fireflybob

13th Jun 2010, 18:46

Read the The OFPIS File: The Organisation for the Preservation of Individuality and Sovereignty [Paperback] written by Vernon Coleman and you will understand where all this type of insane and mindless bureaucracy and red tape is coming from.

The OFPIS File: The Organisation for the Preservation of Individuality and Sovereignty [Paperback] (http://www.amazon.co.uk/OFPIS-File-Organisation-Preservation-Individuality/dp/1899726098/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276454575&sr=1-12)

max nightstop

14th Jun 2010, 08:00

Can't we just all fly procedurally with 4D Navigation and do away with ATC altogether? They stick us all into small corridors of their choosing and then earn a fortune keeping us apart in those corridors. If there was no ATC, we'd find a way to work it out. If there were no planes, ATC wouldn't exist.

ATC in general is a great example of a monopoly providing a poor service to paying customers who have no choice but to use it. It makes them lazy and slow to adapt to the changing priorities of their customers.

Which is the dog, which is the tail?

ATC Watcher

14th Jun 2010, 08:59

I normally do not enter these types of discussions ( us and them ) as they invariably bring us nowhere. But just a couple of fact corrections for the new in here :

The BASIC rule of ATC is to SPEED UP the traffic flow while helping mantaining separation
Wrong, basic task is to separarte traffic from other traffic and from various areas. The expeditious bit is there all right , but secondary in priority.

Now 10W, you can give me all the good reasons in the world to justify the actions of the Spanish ATCO, I just can't understand this.
I' m sure 10W will reply you , but for me it is no different to the ( say RYR ) girl that close the check in 40 min before ETD while the inbound flight is not even landed yet. Come at the gate 38 min bore ETD ,and you'll have a to buy a new ticket on the next flight. Both are equally stupid, but that's the world we live in 2010.

The basic pay [ for an ATCO in Spain ] is 370,000 Euro.

Wrong info, more like half . But does not matter, why are their salaries bothering you as a pilot ? (if you are one ) jealousy? I happened to know the former Fleet chief Pilot on the AF Concorde. His salary was 20 times mine at the time ,for between 2 and 4 flights a month. Jealous, not, envious , you bet! But good luck for him.

Finally :
Can't we just all fly procedurally with 4D Navigation and do away with ATC altogether? They stick us all into small corridors of their choosing and then earn a fortune keeping us apart in those corridors. If there was no ATC, we'd find a way to work it out.

Be my guest .Try. The technology already exsist , it is called ADS-B coupled with CDTI (Cockpit display of traffic info ). ask UPS.

Ah, and the reason why they are " small corridors" as you call them is perhaps also to avoid the military areas and other niceties no ?

Del Prado

14th Jun 2010, 09:37

My 2 pence of advise?Just go on strike.

I believe it's illegal for them to strike.

this is from the ATC forum..

A female coleague working at LEMD (Barajas´TWR) was "granted" by AENA with one of those mandatory recalls I already told you about: she was just about to finish her morning shift, when someone from the staff of HR visited the TWR and told her that she had to return to work that night. My colleague is the mother of a baby, and couldn´t find anybody with such a short notice to babysit him. So the only solution she found is to attend the service that night, taking the baby with her. Of course, she had to take the craddle and the feeding bottle, along with the meal for the dinner. The baby had to go through the security screening process, were the surprised security personnel assigned him an ID badge for his overnight stay.

Rather than focus on the 'childishness' and waste of fuel, what about the threat to your safety?
These are the people trying to stop another Uberlingen, Tenerife, GOL, PSA should they be working under these conditions?

His dudeness

14th Jun 2010, 10:02

No they should not.

Still should I as client of them be treated the way we are at the moment? Me don´t think so. Mr & Mrs. real good paid ATCO in their shiny towers not wanting to relay a ready message? Deliberately wrecking schedule like in "enjoy the view" ´s example? Remembers me of the german 1973 'slow-go'.

Putting an real big portion of stress and uncertainy on aircrews? Is that safe? Does it help to make their case when airlines and coorperate airplanes schedule are junked by their action? My best guess is no.

I operate a coorperate airplane mostly in Europe as a one man show, meaning I do all the planning and flying (with my fellow co-captain)
The endless and everchanging changes in Eurocontrol (RAD - how I hate that thing) is one thing that is enough to push one over the edge, but the different handling and substrike performance of the guys in Spain is the nail on the coffin. (for my nerves, that is)

As an ATCOs son I do understand ATC a bit and I´m not advocating unregulated flying - that won´t work in todays traffic. Even CFMU has its goods. But how the system works today is sometimes akward and bad.
That single ATCOs use their 'force majeur' is unacceptable. We ll know how many factors flow into a single flight and its punctualty. To try to make such a flexible, wobbling system as airtraffic rigid is not going to work.
I always understood ATCOs as part of our team, after all we can´t life without em and viceversa.

ManaAdaSystem

14th Jun 2010, 10:15

So what has changed? I've been flying around Europe for years, 90% of the time on direct tracks, always checking weight/wind/temps/weather and requesting flight levels accordingly, and most of the time I got what I requested. Sometimes I would have to change level later on due to traffic in another sector, but not often.
Total traffic is down after the economical crisis, but the service from ATC has gotten worse. I really hope this is because of some sort of industrial action as in Spain, but the French are doing the same, and now ATC are going to have a Flight Plan & ATFCM Adherence campaign in Europe???
Thanks a bundle, that will really help! Do I have to declare emergency in order to get a climb above weather/turbulence?
Average CFMU taxi times? So our knowledge of different airport does not count? Taxi time can vary by 10-15 minutes depending on parking position and runway in use. It is my responsibility to reach the runway according to slot, and I have to suffer the consequenses if I don't get there in time. It's not for ATC to tell me I can't get there in time when I'm ready to push 15-20 minutes before my slot!
I would also like to point out the obvious, there is a world of difference between ATC in UK and Maastrich, and ATC "further south". The latter being the ones that frustrate me the most.
The thing is, North European ATC should set the standard for the other ATC units, not the other way around!

fireflybob

14th Jun 2010, 11:44

Do they have CTOTs in the USA?

seventhreedriver

14th Jun 2010, 12:42

Drex,

About Italy:

Us: Any chance direct GOTAR?
Padova ATC: What would be your track?
Us:104
Padova: OK cleared direct GOTAR, and we'll cordinate later...

ATC: FCO 16L in use.
Us: Any chance for 16R
ATC Sby.. (about 10 secs later) OK 16R approved (saved around 10 mins taxi time)

I always had the feeling that in Italy, everything is chaotic, BUT everything seems to work. I had the feeling that if something was rejected, there was always a reason.

Madrid: clear weather, no aircraft on RWY 33L, we were on 18NM final for 33R. Any chance for the other RWY? Instant reply NO! This answer costs our company around 20 extra mins taxi, which is around at least 200 kg fuel. We fly as well to VLC, BCN, PMI and a few other places but I have never seen so amateur controlling as in MAD (Spanish level 4 is min required, 5 and 6 reccomended in order to operate there safely)

Capt Scribble

14th Jun 2010, 14:39

We have allowed ATC to become masters rather than servants; rather like most governments these days.

pitotheat

14th Jun 2010, 17:32

Perhaps those controllers, particularly 10W, tempted to defend their colleagues from the South should try to get a jump seat ride on any flight in and out of Spain particularly Madrid. I know you don't get this now as duty time and have to arrange during a day off but believe me it will open your eyes. Come along for the ride and share in the frustration then try to defend a system no longer able to serve it's customers. Experience what a fully qualified 300,000 plus Euro Controller in Madrid deems a professional and competent service, believe me you will not defend them afterwards.

BDiONU

14th Jun 2010, 17:48

Can't we just all fly procedurally with 4D Navigation and do away with ATC altogether?
Excellent idea and 'freeflight' has been worked upon for many years. Unfortunately the technology isn't quite there yet to provide sufficient safety assurance for it to work correctly 100% of the time.
They stick us all into small corridors of their choosing and then earn a fortune keeping us apart in those corridors.
A fortune? I wish! :-) However there are many reasons for those small corridors, not the least of which is the small tarmac bits the planes have to land on. If only the pilots could land anywhere there wouldn't be much need for ATC.
If there was no ATC, we'd find a way to work it out.
Ah yes, like in yea olde days when aircraft followed rail lines, roads etc. and had a habit of smacking into each other, hence the introduction of the rule of the Right?
If there were no planes, ATC wouldn't exist.
No sh1t Sherlock! You win a big cigar and should o to the top of the class :-)

ATC in general is a great example of a monopoly providing a poor service to paying customers who have no choice but to use it.
A monopoly, hhhmmm not in the UK.
It makes them lazy and slow to adapt to the changing priorities of their customers.
Hhhmm, you're obviously not involved in the airline business in UK. If we don't respond to our customers changing priorities we get hit with penalties by our regulator. It would be true to say that ATC in UK, in particular the largest ANSP NATS, are generally one step ahead of their customers, it makes business sense.
Which is the dog, which is the tail?
I don't know, ask me a question on sport please :-)

BD

Denti

14th Jun 2010, 17:54

Beavis and Butthead

15th Jun 2010, 19:54

10W

Thank you for your reply to my post back on page 1. I agree totally with what you say and having worked for several years in airline operations and specifically ATC slots, I can just about remember some of the published taxi times for the various airfields (not many though). This gives me a good understanding now as to whether the Palma controller that day was being sensible or making a statement. I assure you without any doubt that it was the latter. It wasn't just us but several aircraft at the same time that were being denied pushback clearance literally because of a minute or two past EOBT.

For us, we were on the north side of the ramp, so we were close to the departure runway 24R. The 15 mins at Palma is designed to allow sufficient time for aircraft to taxi from the southwest side to 24R. There were no aircraft at the time at the holding point. We called for push and start at CTOT -10, so yes effectively 5 minutes after EOBT but 20 minutes prior to the slot expiry.

We must remember that the -5/+10 is not ours but the tool of the controller. However, aircraft turnarounds are far from an exact science and do need some flexibility where possible. This was neither and seems very unlikely to have any positive outcome for anyone.

I wish the controllers the best in settling their dispute but lets have some common sense.

B&B

Flare-Idle

17th Jun 2010, 01:04

As members of state run organizations, Spanish and French ATC employees/ATCOs just naturally try to avoid by all means the erosion of their ancient priviledges by a far distant threat called single European sky. While again making every airlines/pilots and passengers life difficult these days, the costs imposed by those "strikes" are tremendous for all of us. Be it legacy , low cost or corporate carriers, we should take a united way of legal action and get our money back from those lacy and arrogant ATC clowns in Spain and France. No adequate service, no fees, period.
Diversion due to curfew at home base because of "capacity" induced delays, Pax and crew HOTAC, aircraft unavailable for next day rotations ? Send them the bill, the sooner we start, the better...

F.I.

Henri737

17th Jun 2010, 16:45

To go a step further: make Eurocontrol pay for any "flow control delay" wich they cannot prove true and the losses made due to the "ash-cloud-theatre", They ask enough for their "service"....

BDiONU

17th Jun 2010, 18:56

To go a step further: make Eurocontrol pay for any "flow control delay" wich they cannot prove true
The UK ANSP NATS already has a regime, imposed by the UK government, which imposes penalties for delay which are NATS 'fault'.

BD

FRying

18th Jun 2010, 16:42

I am not too familiar with the stakes with Spanish ATCOs. However French ATCOs, I know more about :ugh:

The reason they're carrying this action at the moment (a strike with no name as there is nothing official - how bold of them !!! They still get paid for buzzing those very people feeding them) is that they now have to sign in.

YES how can you expect from anyone to sign in at work ! This is slavery at work. And the reason signing in is such a disgrace to their eyes is that they used to surf on a system whereby people were simply called off from work during less dense trafic periods. Which means these people used to stay home but were still counted as active, working staff : getting paid for not working. How about that !!! This is called the "clearance" system, i.e. forget about coming to work today, you're cleared to dabble in all sorts of leisure activities, doing f...hole...

Now, the fact they have to sign in with their own ID card and not just waiving at the team as before means they have to take this "work method" out of their life style.

Their argument is "if you want to abide by the rules (i.e. signing in) so will we. All standard, no fuss, no search for improved flight tracks or flight levels. Nothing. All by the charts, obviously forgetting that speeding traffic flows is a hard part of their duty.

Now you know why you're airline is wasting so much money in France for these drama queens.

VampiroNegro

19th Jun 2010, 00:05

From an ATC:

If Flight Plan has NO SLOT (IFR):
-the flight CAN NOT take-off before its EOBT (Estimated Off-Blocks TIme) (if your EOBT is 1000 you can be airborne at 1000 but not before)
- at EOBT + 15 minutes the Flight Plan is over, if you call for clearance after this time you will have to update your FPL
-at EOBT + 45 minutes the Flight is suspended automatically from Brussels (this causes many problems for ATC too)
-you may NOT request READY message, this only applies when you have a SLOT

If Flight Plan has a SLOT (IFR):
-pilot mus call at least X minutes before the SLOT for start up (X=taxitime, in LEPA it's normally 15 minutes)
-the range -5, +10 is for ATC use only (sequence at the holding point). The pilot should not demand the use of this from his stand. for example: SLOT 1015, if you call ATC at 1000 for start up and taxi for 15 minutes, you will reach holding point at 1015, if you are number 5, ATC uses the +10; however if you have SLOT at 1015 and you call at 1010 for start up and taxi for 15 minutes you arrive at holding point at 1025 and you are number 5, you will take off late
-if fully ready before your SLOT - 15 min , you may request READY message, ATC will file the message only if traffic permits (If there are too many departures, sending READY messages will only delay a greater number of aircraft waiting at the holding point)

I wanted to explain this because I hear many discussions with pilots on the frequency every day. When we request a pilot to update his FPL it is because we know he won't make it in time. On the other hand, if there is not much traffic and we can help out we will try to avoid this situation.

I hope you find this helpful........ :ok:

---------------------------------------------------
FROM WHITE CUCUMBER:
"You may want to have a look at the Spanish AIP.

Spanish AIP (ENR 1.10-17)

"To acquire the appropriate data coherence and consistency
of traffic demand, which allow an optimum application
of airspace capacity and flow control measures,
even if the EOBT may be advanced in 15 minutes, take
off shall not be permitted before the EOBT. (The Taxi-time
can never be negative)."

Does it make any sense? I don't think so, but it is the law. "

VampiroNegro

19th Jun 2010, 00:39

AENA (spanish airports and air navigation) and with the support of the spanish gov has developed several attacks to the ATCs for the last year, including the express services, in which you are forced to go to work within an hour or being fired if you reject it in your rest days.

In the last months the number of air traffic controllers with anxiety, depression and other diseases linked with job has raised by 4. Reasons for that worrying fatcs are, for example, the reduction of 40% of the staff every day to manage the same amount of air traffic; the increase of air incidents in more than 100% comparing with the last year. Personal licences granted for general workers like reduction of hours of work to take care little children are denied "for the general interest" !! .

And talking about SID, STARS, etc ... in last months in the spanish ACCs the maximum capacity on the sectors has been exceeded in more than 25% in a constant way and when the ATCs complained about that, AENA said the reason was the way of working of the ATCs due to the directs and changes of FL requested for the pilot and approved by the atc. So we took the decision of following the rules of Eurocontrol, when says:

Why is there a problem ?

EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM adherence (http://www.eurocontrol.int/dmean/public/standard_page/FPL_ATFCM_adherence.html)http://www.eurocontrol.int/gallery/design/content/spacer.gif When investigating those occurrences in most cases it is found that the additional flights entered the concerned sector as a result of: http://www.eurocontrol.int/gallery/design/content/spacer.gif ul.firstlevelbulletlist, ul.secondlevelbulletlist {list-style-image:url(/gallery/design/content/square02.gif);} .firstlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 30px} .secondlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 20px}
not flying at the initial requested flight level (RFL); or,
departing at times different from the original estimated off block time (EOBT) or calculated take off time (CTOT); or,
arriving in the sector earlier or later than originally planned; or,
deviating from their original planned route; often direct routeing (DCT). http://www.eurocontrol.int/gallery/design/content/spacer.gif http://www.eurocontrol.int/gallery/design/content/spacer.gif http://www.eurocontrol.int/gallery/design/content/spacer.gif In 35% of all ATFCM reported over-deliveries during 2008, the actual FL was different to the RFL in the Flight Plan. The network impact of this over-delivery can result in: http://www.eurocontrol.int/gallery/design/content/spacer.gif ul.firstlevelbulletlist, ul.secondlevelbulletlist {list-style-image:url(/gallery/design/content/square02.gif);} .firstlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 30px} .secondlevelbulletlist {padding-left: 20px}
wasted capacity in some sectors,
potentially excessive workload,
an overall lack of confidence in the accuracy of forecast traffic counts,
protective capacity reduction,
increased workload, stress or working conditions such that the ability of ATC controller may be significantly impaired and thus a safety issue.

Spanish ATCs enjoy working in a flexible way trying to do their best for the pilots and companies (our customers), but nowadays the situation in Spain in really critical and we are only trying to defend our basic rights as workers and as proffesionals of the air industry. We do hope the rest of european colleages ( pilots and controllers ) know our situation and understand the decisions AENA force us to take. And, of course we do hope you don´t suffer the same mobbing we are facing to in a so-called democratic country.

Greetings and enjoy your flight, ;)

max1

19th Jun 2010, 05:39

Can't we just all fly procedurally with 4D Navigation and do away with ATC altogether?

Give it a whirl. Chuck in a bit of weather, some military exercises. A Pan call. I'm sure there is some budding Bill Gates out there who will write the computer programme that will cover every conceivable scenario, in all languages.
It should tie in nicely with the software with all aircraft types, and then pilots and controllers can retire to the beach, with drinks in hand, and watch it all go like clockwork.
How good will that be for the airlines and ANSPs managers. $2 airfares for everyone, selfserve inflight service. No need for flight attendants as they will never need to evacuate aircraft, because nothing could possibly go wrong, no-one would ever play up in flight.
I think John Lennon wrote a song about this.

kick the tires

19th Jun 2010, 08:56

Vampiro.....

I couldnt disagree with you more.

In Madrid you guys always put SO much effort into vectoring non spanish aircraft to allow spanish aircraft to jump the queue! if you used those skills with your general controlling, the flow rates would improve massively.

Example - "turn right by 90 degrees, slow down from 300 to 220" - why, to allow a spanair who is 12 miles behind us to be number one! The funny thing was that he then screwed up his landing on 33L and rolled to the end whereas we landed and took first turning and ended up on taxiway ahead of him!!! :ok:

How does the rest of europe manage? I was at the hold for 36R a few days ago - for other readers, Madrid has 2 parallel runways JUST FOR DEPARTURES - and the departure rate for BOTH runways combined was 1 per 3 minutes!!!!

Of course there were 8 aircraft waiting at the hold and you claim to be efficient???

Everyday we are told to give way to Spanish aircraft, even if we have right of way. Its embarrassing at times.

We are given clearance to pushback when there are aircraft behind us, no thought or looking out of windows by controllers.

Deconfliction on the ground and in the air is given in spanish even when it involves an english aircraft.

And you have the audacity to say Spanish ATCs enjoy working in a flexible way trying to do their best for the pilots and companies (our customers)

For me and all my colleagues, the ATC in Madrid is a joke, a sad one at that.

No respect for you guys whatsoever.

Guff Heron

19th Jun 2010, 11:49

For me and all my colleagues, the ATC in Madrid is a joke, a sad one at that.

No respect for you guys whatsoever.I totally agree............

flyburg

19th Jun 2010, 11:57

Just Yesterday in MAD

Scheduled departure 14.55, slot of 15.50. we called for clearance at 14.50 and requested a ready message being send. No luck. Due to long taxitime to 36R, we started calling for startup several times around 15.20. No luck, finally received startup at around 15.30. Arrived at 36R at 15.50 number 8 in line!!!!! requested clarification whether we were gonna make it from ATC. Took two times before they understood the question and the finally came back that we had to contact company to arrange a new slot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

We were flabbergasted. Told ATC quiet forcefully that it was their mistake and their responsibility to solve. Meanwhile, in the line several of the other planes started to make comments like "welcome to Madrid" and "ATC is a joke here" and so on. Ryanair found out he had the same problem and had to contact company to arrange a new slot. He was less than amused as well.

Don't know what finally happened (like to think it was my forcefull voice :)) but ATC got a spanish A/C in front of us out of the way and we left right on the hour.

What a joke though

SR71

19th Jun 2010, 12:00

Isn't there alot of weather between 300 and 400 this summer on the airways of Northern Europe?

:E

fireflybob

19th Jun 2010, 17:56

There seem to be so many anomolies with "flow management".

Here are some examples going to Ciampino today - filed FL 350 - requested FL370 with French but not available due "flow etc". Soon as we call Swiss we are asked if we are able to climb to FL 370 to assist with separation! They also gave us a direct to TOP.

CTOT ex Ciampino 1012 - call for push and start at 0957 (CTOT - 15 mins) - told to standby (one other a/c about to taxi ahead of us). After 5 mins remind ATC we are standing by for push "yes I know standby!) - we finally get cleared push at 1007 (5 mins to slot). Taxi to hold point, one a/c ahead and he is cleared for take off. This was slower a/c on same routing. We are then held for over five minuted and eventually get airborne at CTOT at 11 mins!!

On the way back we are filed at FL360 - we request FL 380 and were granted this for the whole cruise until descent.

Sorry but please don't kid me into thinking that the action in Spain and France is due to "flow management" - absolute bollox!

ATC Watcher

19th Jun 2010, 18:04

Fireflybob : filed FL 350 - requested FL370
and then :
On the way back we are filed at FL360 - we request FL 380

Sorry , not trying to excuse the Spanish or French Controllers actions here, but why are you systematically requesting differently as you file ? Surely you can make sure both are correct, a simple quick CHG message would take care of this and avoid frustrations later on.

fireflybob

19th Jun 2010, 18:13

ATC Watcher - I take your point but the company files the requested level and we are often not in a position to determine the ideal Flight Level until we are in possession of the loadsheet (a few mins prior to departure). Planned weight can vary due to differing passengers loads to what is expected, decisions which are made on the amount of fuel to "tanker" (this is affected by landing conditions on shorter runways and such issues as "non environmental icing"), whether any CAT is forecast etc.

If we file for the higher level and then advise ATC that we are unable because we are too heavy and/or turbulence forecast then this isn't too popular, I guess! So the safest thing (especially given all the latest nonsense in Spain) is to file the lower level but ask for higher on those occasions where we can fly higher.

Perhaps you can tell me - if I ask ATC to send a change a few minutes before pushback is this likely to affect the CTOT? (I suspect it would so and therefore incur a possible delay).

As a pilot I will tell you that there are just two many variables for me (or any other crew) to predict the precise FL they would ideally like to fly at.

With the company I fly with having several hundred movements a day across Europe how would the system cope with many CHG requests on the flight plan. Operationally we have to strike a balance between mitigating delays as opposed to achieving an ideal level - one of the reasons why we carry contingency fuel.

Surely any good ATC system should have a degree of flexibilty?

ATC Watcher

19th Jun 2010, 19:54

Fireflybob, point taken.
Now , I do not fly large jets at high altitudes, but in my unpressurized single engine aircraft , to fly 1000 or even 2000 ft below my (hand) calculated optimum does not make much difference economically, if any .(unless the wind is different at those altitudes of course )
I suppose you are flying a 320 or a 737 NG, so using same or similar engines.

For the sake of the argument :
The average commercial flight duration in Europe in 2009 was slighlty over one hour flight time. The cruising part of that flight is roughly 1/3 , so say 20to 30 min .
Can you look in your charts and tell me what difference there is between cruising at 350 and 370 for 20 min , and give me the % of the economy obtained , compared to the total costs of the flight. ? My point is : aren't we chasing optimum FLs just because a computer says it is more economical , but by what fraction ? Is this really worth all that R/T and frustration ?

The older generation of pilots and controlelrs were taught always to ask and deliver requesting high altitudes because with the engines then , a Trident , a Caravelle or a Bac1-11 , stuck at a lower altitude would be exteremely penalizing .But is that really so with a CFM56 ?
Also would a flight arriving on time flown 2000ft below optimum be more economic for your airline, that one getting, say 5 min delay but flying at optimum, altitude ?

Chesty Morgan

19th Jun 2010, 20:50

ATC Watcher, on the EMB 195 the penalty for flying 2000' lower is somewhere between 200 and 300kgs, obviously dependant on route length.

The latest price per tonne of fuel I have is about £450. So on a 2 sector trip you're looking at about £300 saving for an extra 2000' higher (ish!) and that's one aeroplane on one route. For the whole fleet that would be in the order of several thousand pounds lost or gained in a single day.

Every little helps:ok:

TBSC

19th Jun 2010, 21:56

Fuel Dump

19th Jun 2010, 22:14

Two days ago, from Ibiza to London, FPL filed all the way on FL380. After 40 min (!!!) and lots of step climbs we reached 380. On the hand over to the next Madrid sector we were demanded to descent to FL360. Tried to argue with no success. 10 min later hand over to Bordeaux and we were cleared back to FL380 "as on FPL". Result: 120kg of fuel in the rubbish bin.
And I didn't see any aircraft near us on FL380 that could justify a level change. It's a bunch of amateurs taking care of serious business.
My only hope nowadays is my roster sending me to scandinavia and central and eastern europe...

1985

19th Jun 2010, 22:27

filed FL 350 - requested FL370

filed at FL360 - we request FL 380

I don't think that this sort of difference in FPL v RFL is the sort of thing the eurocontrol document is aimed at. Its more when the orginal filed level is say FL290 and the requested level is FL370. Thats the sort of difference that we should be trying to get rid of. If your ops dept files at one level because of a flow restriction they should tell you what and where the restrcition is.

For example we had one filed at FL330 wanting FL390 the other day. Now this change in level took it into MAAS Delta High as opposed to the Delta Low so we had a look and after asking flow we found the restriction was over Germany. Delta High happily took it because they were going to descend the aircraft prior to the german border. Being flexible within the system is possible if the right information is known.

Alpinepilot

20th Jun 2010, 13:54

If you need higher for weather, request it! If it is not given because the spanish are being unhelpful , TELL the passengers the reason they are all being thrown around is due to spanish ATC conflict, or Marseille ATC or Paris ATC or national strike day etc .
Look after the Aircraft, the Passengers and your crew! Be Honest with the passengers who knows you may be carrying a journalist or a politician.

p_perez

20th Jun 2010, 14:21

Hi!

as this looks more to me as an ATC Issue than Rumours & News, maybe you could give a look at the appropiate forum:

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416439-atc-situation-spain.html

I think you will find useful information there.

Saludos!

FatFlyer

20th Jun 2010, 14:26

I know that the Spanish controllers have some dispute with AENA which is why no shortcuts are given at present, for the last week or two, the French, particularly Brest, seem to be doing the same. Are you also in dispute? or is there some other reason.
Often now you fly the whole SID and airways route from Southern Spain to UK, the first direct routing is given from LATCC.
Airline management should be putting pressure on Control management to solve their differences with their employees as this policy is wasting time, money, fuel, and causing more CO2/ pollution.
We pay considerable navigation charges for an efficient service and are being made to suffer because ATC management cannot keep their staff happy.

Nightstop

20th Jun 2010, 17:09

We actually received several surprise Directs from ATC today inbound MAD, plus good speed control on Final from the APP/FINAL controllers.....so, there is hope :) . Please keep it up MAD ATC, we love you really ;).

Beavis and Butthead

20th Jun 2010, 17:15

Problem is that AENA management couldn't care less that we are flying routes 'by the book'. Our colleagues in ATC need to realise this and to understand that their target for this action is very much misplaced. No one even knows what's going on with this 'unhelpfulness' except us so how can it ever benefit the cause. As for what it's got to do with the French controllers I don't know. All in all a very sad state of affairs for two sets of professionals in this industry.

Alpinepilot

20th Jun 2010, 17:31

night stop .. perhaps you are spanish...what a surprise!

ATC Watcher

20th Jun 2010, 18:11

Chesty morgan :
ATC Watcher, on the EMB 195 the penalty for flying 2000' lower is somewhere between 200 and 300kgs, obviously dependant on route length.

I am not familiar with the EMB195 but I doubt very much your figures, if 20 min at 2000ft below optimum = 200 Kg that would be 10Kg/min ???? Common !!
Look afain your charts, I think you got a zero wrong somewhere.

fireflybob

20th Jun 2010, 18:24

Can you look in your charts and tell me what difference there is between cruising at 350 and 370 for 20 min , and give me the % of the economy obtained , compared to the total costs of the flight. ? My point is : aren't we chasing optimum FLs just because a computer says it is more economical , but by what fraction ? Is this really worth all that R/T and frustration ?

ATC Watcher, the point is that if we save (say) 50-100 kgs for every flight that's a hell of a lot of fuel when multiplied over hundreds of movements a day over the course of a year! I look at things from a fairly simple point of view (!) but I dont think it's so much the % but how much fuel that can be saved over a year - that's a lot of dosh! Part of my remit as a professional pilot is to operate as economically as possible. Why is it a lot of RT to say "Request FL XXX" (mind you the way some pilots ask for a level change - well thats another matter!)?

HundredPercentPlease

20th Jun 2010, 19:54

If Flight Plan has a SLOT (IFR):
-pilot mus call at least X minutes before the SLOT for start up (X=taxitime, in LEPA it's normally 15 minutes)

In LEPA yesterday, an aircraft called 4 minutes before his slot (so 14 minutes before his last airborne time).

He was parked very close to N1/24R. Somewhere between stands 12 and 16. There were no aircraft at the hold, and none taxiing (apart from us). The place was deserted.

The controller denied him start, and told him that he had to re-file (for another massive delay). The aircraft in question just couldn't believe it - and assured the controller he could be at the holding point in 8 minutes or so and that he would be reporting him.

LEPA is a disgrace, and the controllers should be ashamed of their behaviour.

:yuk:

silverstrata

20th Jun 2010, 21:15

Just wish some of there controller's could speak proper English that's understandable and actually speak into the microphone on the headset rather than talking into a bucket...

Bucket? Ahhh, I thought they always took the microphone into the toilet... :ok:

And turn their mobile phones off while on duty too, so we don't get so much interference. :D

silverstrata

20th Jun 2010, 21:19

Sorry , not trying to excuse the Spanish or French Controllers actions here, but why are you systematically requesting differently as you file ? Surely you can make sure both are correct, a simple quick CHG message would take care of this and avoid frustrations later on.

Errr - like who knows what their exact weight will be some two hours before departure? Sometimes opps does not know 5 mins before departure!

.

silverstrata

20th Jun 2010, 21:41

In Madrid you guys always put SO much effort into vectoring non spanish aircraft to allow spanish aircraft to jump the queue! if you used those skills with your general controlling, the flow rates would improve massively.

:ok::ok::ok:

Got the T-shirt with that one. Grand tour of Palma, because of the inbound Iberia just taking off in Barcelona....

Right Way Up

20th Jun 2010, 21:48

100%please,
LEPA have always been bad for this sort of thing. Almost as good as the taxi instructions you used to be given decelerating through 100kts.

Chesty Morgan

20th Jun 2010, 21:56

I am not familiar with the EMB195 but I doubt very much your figures, if 20 min at 2000ft below optimum = 200 Kg that would be 10Kg/min ???? Common !!
Look afain your charts, I think you got a zero wrong somewhere.

ATC Watcher, I did say depending on route length. Those figures are about right for something like a 2 hour sector with about an hour in the cruise, not a 20 minute cruise. There are a lot of variable so I can't give you an absolute figure.

For a 20 minute cruise take a third of my figures for a ballpark number. About 100kgs, each way, for the 14 aeroplanes in our fleet. That is 2.8 tonnes per day for the sake of 2000'. Multiply that by 365 days in a year and you get close to half a million pounds wasted. Triple that for an average 2 hour sector.

It's easy to see why there are plenty of people unhappy with the current situation in Spain.

Fuel Dump

20th Jun 2010, 22:47

I don't want to be rude but... if one can't understand what difference it makes to cruise at lower levels than optimum to a jet plane you are certainly in the wrong forum. Isn't this a Professional Pilot Network?? :ok:

A.Q

20th Jun 2010, 23:07

it seems that the french controllers are starting to act like the spanish, i came from lyon today and no directs... not available they say, it's so boring, a wast of time, money, fuel... it is really sad

LEVC

21st Jun 2010, 15:36

Regarding the favor treatment IB flights receive, I think your comments are being a bit simplistic just because it happened to you once, I say this with no intention of offending you or anybody else.
I am employed by a spanish airline (not IB) and I do fly regularly to LEPA and other airports around Spain, and I can tell that I have been told to slow down many many times to allow for traffics who were at times more distant than we were and worse positioned for a direct APP, that usually happens in LEPA,most of the times with Airberlin traffics, they are usually given priority over others, same applies for airports in small cities in northern Spain like Santander, where is not uncommon to have a Ryanair 40 NM north of the airport and another traffic 20 NM to the south and being told he is number 2 and to slow down.
My guess is that in some airports the companies having lots of flights and getting support from the regional administration are treated better than other who are not as important in terms of total number of flights.
This is only my opinion based in personal experience, I cannot back my opinion with any official data or statistics, so I could be wrong.

I do not think spanish ATC give spanish traffics priority over foreign ones, at least as a policy, you might always find the odd one who is not as professional as he /she should be as in every place and country.

I agree with you totally that the ATC level in Spain compared to UK is not even close in terms of quality or organization, and that there is plenty of room for major improvement on the services they provide, but come on , the guys are having a rough time with their managers who are not playing fair, they are just trying to defend themselves, don´t just make them look worse than they are, most of them are usually willing to help us getting directs and other stuff.
Good flights to all, and let´s hope this situation stops ASAP.
LEVC

Avman

21st Jun 2010, 16:41

it seems that the french controllers are starting to act like the spanish

Get used to it as, from what I have recently heard, it may get worse in France as well as at least two other European countries from July onwards! Seems there are lots of very unhappy ATCOs out there.

McNulty

21st Jun 2010, 20:50

I've had the misfortune of being based in Madrid Barajas for the past 8 months, and from my first hand, day to day experience of dealing with the donkey air traffic controllers there i can only say that is both a DISGRACE and a SCANDAL that such a low level of professionalism and competency can be allowed to exist at a major international airport.

It's hard to know where to begin when it comes to discussing the range of problems that the controllers cause, so ill just make a list in no particular order:

- There are 4 runways in Madrid, but still the controllers manage to make a mess of almost every approach by giving non sensical speeds and vectors despite having few aircraft to manage due to the amount of runways.

- Most professional air traffic controllers (ie. in countries other than spain) that i have come accross tend to give vectors of 5-10 degrees off track for seperation, in Madrid we get sent 90 degrees off track.

- Preference given every day for Spanish airlines, in particular Iberia, its a regualar procedure coming into Mad that we get slowed down to 220 kts and vectored 90 degrees off course and watch as we are overtaken/undertaken by Iberia/Spanair/Air Europa.

- We have our situational awareness diminished both in the air and on the ground by Spanish being spoken between Spanish ATC and Spanish airlines - absolute madness.

- When checking into the countless approach frequencies/ground frequencies we usually have to repeat ourselves as the controller is not listening on the frequency, their typical response is "station calling"? in a comical confused sounding voice.

- When holding we are never given expected approach times or reasons for holding (its mostly because of their work to rule/strike), often have to ask several times but are usually ignored. Have on several occasions been told '10 minutes' only to be told 10 minutes later that it will be another 10 minutes etc etc.

- Whenever it gets a little bit busy you start hearing nervousness and panic in the controllers voices, whatever extremely low standard that they are trained to does not enable them to deal efficiently with large volumes of aircraft.

- The exrtremely high levels of pay that these 'professionals' receive just adds insult to injury.

Flying between Madrid and London is like flying between two differant planets in terms of air traffic control standards. That such a massive, massive differance in quality can be allowed to exist in this day and age is a scandal. Unfortunately the only way that i can see that the standard will change in Madrid is after an accident is caused by the incompetence of the controllers. It will happen sooner or later.

This is what happens when you give a small special interest group the control over a countries airspace. Their priorities are cushy working conditions and high pay. The least of their concerns is efficiency and high standards. The daily delays caused by their current work to rule is a total disgrace. I hope something changes soon however i doubt it, the Spanish government like most governments in europe are a joke.

jimsmitty01

21st Jun 2010, 21:51

McNulty I totally agree!

The only thing I would add is their current work to rule is not achieving anything! They might as well just go on a proper strike for a few days and be done with it. Would have a much bigger impact and would get their point across (not that its valid anyway).

All its doing is reducing air safety by cramming loads of a/c on the same route and the same place. As well as causing a bad atmosphere between controllers and pilots, particularly at FR.

Bean counters in a few months will notice a slightly higher fuel burn, and the percentage of on time arrivals will slowly decrease.... but this is surely not going to have an impact on the ts and cs of these controllers!! - even though they are apparently loaded anyway.

All we can do is keep our wits about us when we go to Spain, as McNulty says something dreadful could easily happen with their current unprofessional attitude.

My message to them is: EITHER WORK PROPERLY OR DON'T BOTHER TURNING UP AT ALL!!

Jim

ATC Watcher

22nd Jun 2010, 07:15

Fuel Dump : Isn't this a Professional Pilot Network??
:}:}:}:}:}:}

On a more serious note, wrong thread to start discussing RFLs, when this French and Spanish circus is over, maybe we can go at it again, because in the future European ATM system ( e.g SESAR) pilots and controllers are not the ones who are going to decide your route and your RFL.

deci

22nd Jun 2010, 11:46

- There are 4 runways in Madrid, but still the controllers manage to make a mess of almost every approach by giving non sensical speeds and vectors despite having few aircraft to manage due to the amount of runways.- When holding we are never given expected approach times or reasons for holding (its mostly because of their work to rule/strike), often have to ask several times but are usually ignored. Have on several occasions been told '10 minutes' only to be told 10 minutes later that it will be another 10 minutes etc etc.

- Whenever it gets a little bit busy you start hearing nervousness and panic in the controllers voices, whatever extremely low standard that they are trained to does not enable them to deal efficiently with large volumes of aircraft.hi McNulty,

here (http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416439-atc-situation-spain.html) A possible explanation to the problems you had in LEMD:
(It's a quote from a post of p_perez in ATC forum)

Veteran ATCO´s older than 57 (the most experienced) are not allowed to control anymore, and are now forced to do burocratic jobs. This has been a great loss for all of us, because of their huge experience on the job. At Madrid TMA, about 30% of the ATCO´s have been retired from operational jobs, and have been hardly replaced by already exploited colleagues or by non-operational ATCO´s forced to return to the ACC.

maybepilot

22nd Jun 2010, 23:48

Veteran ATCO´s older than 57 (the most experienced) are not allowed to control anymore, and are now forced to do burocratic jobs. This has been a great loss for all of us, because of their huge experience on the job. At Madrid TMA, about 30% of the ATCO´s have been retired from operational jobs, and have been hardly replaced by already exploited colleagues or by non-operational ATCO´s forced to return to the ACC.

The above statement implicitly says that ATC at MAD used to be good when the experienced guys were "at the controls"; to be honest in the last 20 years or so that I have been flying in and out of MAD I can't say ATC were never even close to being good.
No noticeable difference between those who are experienced and those who are not; the reasons for a crap service must be elsewhere.

Nightstop

23rd Jun 2010, 11:22

the reasons for a crap service must be elsewhere
The problems you describe are not unique to the aviation sector in Spain, just look at the road network surrounding Madrid for example...it's a shambles with hardly any planning whatsoever, fast road entry & exit is an experience fraught with danger, Spanish TV regularly broadcasts the aftermath of RTAs in graphic detail. Transfer this culture across to the aviation sector and you see similarities. The only solution I can see is an outside team of overseas experts brought in to retrain and monitor the present encumbants and that includes the Trainers themselves.

f/spninx

24th Jun 2010, 05:08

I have to agree with LEVC that in PMI you can include Air Berlin as a Spanish airline. The way Spanish atc gives priority to it's own airlines is not only unfair but dangerous.

JEP

24th Jun 2010, 06:39

Veteran ATCO´s older than 57 (the most experienced) are not allowed to control anymore

Unless things has changed recently - Danish ATCO's are retired at the age of 55. Those doing administrative jobs at 60.

Telstar

24th Jun 2010, 09:46

their typical response is "station calling"? in a comical confused sounding voice.

"You know your are flying in Spain when......

That happens on nearly every frequency in Spain. It is amazing when you are enroute over somewhere busy like BCN or MAD and after the third or fourth call you get this response. What are they doing?

Johnny Tightlips

24th Jun 2010, 10:21

And after that third or fourth call they call back the wrong aircraft.

Me: ABC 123 flight level 380 direct ANETO.
ATC: ABC 789 radar contact.......
Or even worse blindly ignore me and call Iberia and the whole show starts again.

Wake the f%ck up! And don't get me started about Madrid, what a bunch of armature's. In Spain I get nervous when we get vectors:uhoh:.If only the people of Spain knew what their taxes are being wasted on...

Roffa

25th Jun 2010, 08:28

Wonder if AENA will attempt to buy NATS when the government sell the rest of us off, that could be interesting?

DjerbaDevil

25th Jun 2010, 18:29

The latest news on training for Spanish ATC would appear to be an answer to many prayers but is still way away in the future and as pointed out by Nightstop #134 "The only solution I can see is an outside team of overseas experts brought in to retrain and monitor the present encumbants and that includes the Trainers themselves.":

Astac has incorporated Astac Spain SL to assist in the marketing and preparation of training programmes for air traffic controllers in Spain. Astac Spain will be working in conjunction with University Camilo Jose Cela in Madrid and have signed a joint venture agreement to establish the formal links to integrate the Astac training with UCJC.
Astac Ltd will undertake the training at the Astac Shoreham International Training Centre in Brighton, and students will also be able to participate in the Astac University of Gloucestershire Foundation Science Degree in Air Traffic and Aviation Management.
The students will benefit from the great experience of Astac in training controllers for more than 30 countries around the world; and with the training being in England students will significantly improve their English and Aviation language skills.Astac Spain is working with the Ministry of Transport, Civil Aviation Authority and AENA in Spain to coordinate the training of controllers planned to commence in August 2010. Full details will be available on www.astacspain.com (mhtml:{25171FF0-2B93-487E-847D-B68C941D8898}mid://00002288/!x-usc:http://www.astacspain.com/) and www.astac.co.uk (mhtml:{25171FF0-2B93-487E-847D-B68C941D8898}mid://00002288/!x-usc:http://www.astac.co.uk/)

silverstrata

25th Jun 2010, 20:21

Telstar:
That happens on nearly every frequency in Spain. It is amazing when you are enroute over somewhere busy like BCN or MAD and after the third or fourth call you get this response. What are they doing?

Ahhh - well when you go into AGP the ATIS often says "controllers on the job".

So now you know what they are doing..... :ok:

Mud Skipper

25th Jun 2010, 21:59

Nothing new here people.

Many many countries have bias ATC towards their national carriers. Singapore is probably the most spectacular and bold of any I have come accross - expect to do laps out there so their Supers can do a low energy approaches.

As an aside and in the controllers defence though, it's my understanding it's often the computer software driving/overriding good controlling. Out here in Australia we have had a system TAAATS (think it's from France???) since around year 2000 and controllers are slavishly tied to what it tells them even when it would appear from their years of experience to be off the track so to speak. Whilst some aspects of the system are definatly good, on the whole controllers are now much more regimented and less flexable, efficient and practical than they were in the past.

So yes we all suffer from national bias in some countries but spare a thought for some controllers who are forced by their managers and policy to blindly follow what a computer has been programmed to tell them even when they can see it's plainly wrong but not necessarily unsafe.

Computers - rubbish in, rubbish programming, rubbish out.

andrijander

26th Jun 2010, 06:06

DjerbaDevil,

answer to many prayers? Until now first people had to pass a tough selection process and then, and only then, if they were the top of the stack they would be picked to be trained. Fair enough, system is(was) not perfect but since the employer was the one paying for the course they were performance oriented (they'd only pick whoever they thought was most able). Now the only chance to become an ATCO in Spain is by paying from your own pocket. So forget performance. Who's got 25000+ euro or more to spare? Then, my boy, you'll be an ATCO(or so they say). Hell, even some schools setting up already (with courses already rostered and filled), have "forgotten" to actually test their candidates.

But then again, if you have a school and a student with a dream (and ready to pay form 25k onwards), would you tell them to keep their money because you don't think they'll be good at their job or they don't have a chance? Yeah, right, exactly.

Don't expect any improvemente from that side of things anytime soon...

silverstrata

26th Jun 2010, 09:44

calypso

26th Jun 2010, 10:01

That is also the case in some airlines but passengers at least have the choice of which airline to fly. Pilots are also the first ones to arrive at the accident so they tend to take a greater interest...

LH2

26th Jun 2010, 11:58

Until now first people had to pass a tough selection process and then, and only then, if they were the top of the stack they would be picked to be trained

In my understanding (which is admittedly incomplete) that is/was correct. However, the selection process was a civil service selection process, rather than one specifically geared to identify the best people for the job at hand--in other words, whoever studied harder the more or less relevant curriculum (or had the best connections, as pointed out above) got the job. However, it is doubtful whether the person who can answer correctly a question about article 15 of the Spanish Constitution, or who knows the Chicago Convention by heart will make the best controller.

As an anecdote, we used to have fun in Spain by asking the controller unusual (but perfectly legitimate) questions and try to guess what nonsensical answer we would get. My favourite was "request activation status of danger area LE-XXX"--typical answers were "affirm, you are cleared to FLXXX", "contact Marseille on ...." (wrong country, my friend!), or the all-time popular "say again?"

heavy.airbourne

26th Jun 2010, 12:09

Computers - rubbish in, rubbish programming, rubbish out

the word is GIGO - garbage in, garbage out. twas invented when computers were programmed by use of ticker tapes and punch cards and controlled with teletypes...go figure! Nothing really changed on this road.

heavy.airbourne

26th Jun 2010, 12:14

That may be the theory but in Spain this means the cousin, son, brother, neighbor, etc, etc of those that do the selection will get the job. In any case the present system is plainly not working as it produces a large number of controllers of very low quality. In some cases due to a poor attitude (I passed the very difficult entry barrier, I paid my dues and now I own this job) or with very poor ability. The training cannot be much worse and they are not even taught how to speak properly into a microphone (It amazes me how many times the volume is illegible because they are simply not speaking into the microphone)

Spain belongs to Africa, geologically and historically. Don't get fooled by Spain (or Greece, or Portugal) being a member of the EU. TIA!

silverstrata

26th Jun 2010, 17:21

Calyso:
That is the problem with these threads they seem the favorite hiding place for bigots, North European supremacists, rancid british patriots and generally the uninformed and prejudiced. A shame really since there is a serious issue here and those attitudes also provide and excellent excuse for the same controllers not to listen

And the favourite hiding place of all-inclusive equalitarians who fly across Spain with their fingers in their ears shouting loudly: "this is just as good as LHR, AMS and FFT - this is just as good as LHR, AMS and FFT - this is just as good as LHR, AMS and FFT" :D

.

Cernicalo

27th Jun 2010, 15:01

Hello, Silverstrata,

As maybe we talked each other in AGP, Could you please, write all the phrase: "Controllers on the job... training monitored"

This is because, when new people arrives at the tower, of course, we have to train them,

Cheers

Quote: from Silverstrata
Ahhh - well when you go into AGP the ATIS often says "controllers on the job".

So now you know what they are doing.....

speedbird462

27th Jun 2010, 17:09

Spain belongs to Africa, geologically and historically. Don't get fooled by Spain (or Greece, or Portugal) being a member of the EU. TIA!We agree Spanish ATC hasn't got the best reputation in the world and reading this thread provides a good selection of examples to prove that. However, your comment heavy.airbourne is just out of order :=
The former 'recruiting' system was appalling, unfair and it has obviously not produced great results in terms of safe, orderly and expeditious air traffic service. I have to also admit (being Spanish and having lived in the UK for a while) that unfortunately in Spain, not only in aviation but in general 'who you know' gets you much further than 'what you know'.(by this I am not implying that every controller in Spain didn't work hard or didn't have the skills to do the job)
That is why many Spanish professionals go abroad (mainly in EU) to find opportunities to develop their careers and make the most otf their skills and be justly rewarded for it. Some, to your amazement, have ended up being controllers in the UK and can actually make themselves understood in English.

andrijander

27th Jun 2010, 17:43

I also agree that the previous selection system in Spain left room for improvement. There needed to be a change...just not this one. I think we've taken a step in the wrong direction. As some rightly pointed out, you were tested but you weren't tested in how good you were as a controller. I.e. why on earth the university degree? Personally I was being trained in the EUROCONTROL institute in Luxembourg when I had just turned 20 (no Einstein here,I'm implying I did not have a degree by then).

But at least you were tested on some things which were close to the mark. Nowadays forget about it. Only way ahead will be if you have the ca$h.

About the racism issue: it does exist. Not this a place to debate it so how about we focus on the issue at hand and we try to be constructive. I did a skydiving course some time ago and one of my instructors told me that it was surprising how many people ended up crashing against a particular tree that was near the landing field. It was a big field with just this one tree in view. It turned out so many people, on final with the chute, fixated on the problem (the tree) rather than the solution (anywere else) that because they were so fixated on it they ended up smashing into it. To all of they guys complaining "for the sake of it" bring some solutions too, maybe someone will like some of them and do something about fixing this situation.

(I particularly like the idea of the bringing the team of foreigners, but just don't think it is completely feasible just like that, but definitely there should be more inter-agencies cooperation; kinda best practices system, learn from who does it best sort of thing...I know, PMI, AGP are not LHR, FRA etc, so save the differences, but many things can be done all the same in many different places).

A.

heavy.airbourne

28th Jun 2010, 04:14

However, your comment heavy.airbourne is just out of order := It seems that I did not make myself clear: I am not speaking against the individual controller, I am rather complaining about the quality and the efficiency of the system in the countries mentioned. I admit there might be really good greek, italian, spanish controllers (most probably working abroad), and I prefer spanish ATC over ATC in Chad, though these is easy, really. But there are a lot of similarities if you compare with Nigeria, Domrep, India etc. Overall, ATC in Spain, Italy, and Greece gives the impression of being in a third world country like those mentioned above. This has nothing to do with racism on my side, but rather with lack of work ethics and the resulting level of professionalism on their side. Hey, if they were doing their jobs properly, nobody would be complaining. Right?

silverstrata

28th Jun 2010, 10:52

andrijander :
About the racism issue: it does exist. Not this a place to debate it so how about we focus on the issue at hand and we try to be constructive.

Oh, dear. Always a good sign of someone losing the argument, when they play the race-card. Sorry, that card does not wash any more.

Firstly, this cannot be racism as most Spanish are Caucasian. Or do you confuse racism with nationalism?

Secondly, this cannot be racism/nationalism as the contributors here have clearly explained that many European and world ATC centers are very good. This is merely an honest opinion of good controlling vs poor controlling, and nothing to do with any inherent bias or any 'isms'.

IMHO:
Good = Scandinavia, Benelux, Germanic, Eastern Europe (in general, but gets worse the further east one goes), Baltic, N America and surprisingly Italy (except they speak too fast).

Bad = France (wrong language), Spain (dubious instructions), Greece (can they replace their 1950s crystal radio sets?), N Africa ('nuff said), Turkey (try hard, but heavy accent), Eastern Med (ditto N Africa), Russia (heavy accent), and many RAF stations (slow).

It might be nice to have an exchange program across Europe, to homogenise standards. I would just love to see an AGP controller on LGW TWR freq for a month :ok: :ok: Seriously, this would be the only way to demonstrate and cure the problems we have in the 'bad' locations.

.

68+iou1

28th Jun 2010, 16:13

It took 8 pages..............................

Well said Silverstrada!

muellakos

28th Jun 2010, 18:29

well, im from spain and can agree to a lot of things said here.
but i think the main issue is the way the ATCs have been trained so far....

The idea was to make applicants study everything or almost everything b4 the formation and make sure they had a FIRST certificate level of english.

what this leaded to was to an incredible ammount of good students trying to get the job, by memorizing the texts and subjects.
So memory monsters would get perfect scores and with a mid-low level of english the place to develope in the trainning centers.
what happened then, was that some of those students didnt have the abstract and spacial abilities to do the job.

what they are doing starting this year (july 2010) is the opposite, testing on aptitude (memory, spacial and abstract) and a much higher level of english, something in between advanced and proficiency (bt 5 and 6 out of 6 on cambridge scale).

So therefore in some years time from now , we should see some improvement in the spanish CTs as newer blood arrives .
(hopefully im one of them as im going to madrid to take the FEAST during this month)

Spitoon

28th Jun 2010, 19:04

I am really not in a position to comment about the current situation in Spanish ATC. I have read a variety of inputs from both sides of the argument, both here and elsewhere and it seems to me that there are a good number of inconsistencies between the positions being espoused.

Looking specifically at the safety issue - as opposed to the multitude of contributory factors that might affect safety - it seems puzzling that no-one has mentioned any involvement the national regulator or National Supervisory Authority have and what, if any, actions they are taking. On the face of it, assuming that there really is a safety issue at stake, it would appear that the regulator/NSA is not actually doing its job. Is this correct?

It is, perhaps, interesting to note that there is an ICAO Universal Safety Oversight Audit of Spain scheduled for early July. Whilst this is most unlikely to result in any immediate changes to the situation, maybe it presents an opportunity to get an independent view on how Spain is providing its civil aviation services and how effectively it is conducting oversight of safety matters.

zerotohero

28th Jun 2010, 19:22

Cernicalo

As maybe we talked each other in AGP, Could you please, write all the phrase: "Controllers on the job... training monitored

lol,,, when I hear that in Spain I cant but help write down idiot in training when copying down the ATIS.

p_perez

29th Jun 2010, 12:03

zerotohero:

"when I hear that in Spain I cant but help write down idiot in training when copying down the ATIS."

I demand you to stop insulting my colleagues this way, you don´t even know them. Period!

freightdog

29th Jun 2010, 14:41

I haven´t read the whole tread, but I just want to express my opinion about the use of native language in Spain, Greece, France etc. (basically the part of Europe where one stands up to take a dump).

IT IS ANNOYING - to say the least. Any pilot paid to fly should be professional enough to speak English while at work, that would force ATC to do the same.

I may be wasting my time here, as I suspect the people my frustration is aimed at may not even read this, because;

a) it is in English, and

b) because this website is for professional pilots

zerotohero

29th Jun 2010, 14:54

p_perez

I don't know them personally but I do know them professionally as I fly in the airspace they work and they are idiots, there unsafe to do the job, they have no understanding of flow control at all and I have said it before and will say it again, I would trust a gypsy with my wallet before I trust them with my life. PERIOD

On another note, it may not been down to the fact that there idiots in general, that would be just saying all Spanish are idiots which I know not to be true, It may be the fact the training they receive is sub standard and the examining system is again sub standard, If I feel safe in UK airspace, French, German, Swiss, etc etc why is it on a daily basis that they are the only controllers I get frustrated at for been so useless??? please tell me!

Honestly tell me!

kick the tires

29th Jun 2010, 15:05

zerotohero there unsafe to do the job, and down to the fact that there idiots in general

Perhaps you should go back to class as well?? In case you still haven't realised, here is a little test for you:

They're/their/there (http://www.better-english.com/easier/theyre.htm)

There is no need to go on at the Spanish in such a bitter way. I am no great fan of the ATC here in Madrid, but had a very nice day out today - a couple of directs, not stopped on taxiway to let Iberia through and a lot of hellos and farewells.

Perhaps ATC have realised that the pilots are not the enemy!

Airbrake

29th Jun 2010, 15:59

I have spent many years using French and Spanish airspace. Unfortunately the vast majority of comments on here are quite accurate. The unprofessional and blatant vectoring of non Spanish/French aircraft, ignoring English speaking a/c in favor of their mother tongue, and basic poor controlling are frequent occurrences.

The training and standardization in these countries is fundamentally flawed. All the above events happen many times an hour and their trainers and standardization personnel cannot fail to see it and still do nothing about it.

The poor quality of control in these countries is all the more apparent when you compare them to the high standards and professionalism displayed by the Dutch, Maastricht, German, Swiss and of course the UK, to name a few.

We had the Shorts 360 fatal at CDG some years ago when language played a key part and it will take another accident for something to be done about these poor standards.

fokker1000

29th Jun 2010, 16:14

Airbrake,

Here here. And Blatantly biased in their favour. The Brits, Germans, swiss and Dutch are excellent, and all credit to them.

We all know which airspace we would choose if we had to put out a MAYDAY!

zerotohero

29th Jun 2010, 16:35

They're/their/there

O dear,,, very weak comeback They're/their/there

It sounds the same on the radio, spelling grammer is not the issue for safe flight!

the issue is they will reply with unreadable check your radio,,,, nope,, check your ICAO Level6! would be my responce! you cant speak the lauguage so get off the ATC,, I could not care a monkeys if they can spell half the words!

No one asks you to spell MAYDAY when decening like a love sick bird with the wings on fire.

VERY WEAK KICK THE TIRES

kick the tires

29th Jun 2010, 16:48

I could not care a monkeys if they can spell half the words!

responce

decening

But its you that can't spell - or is English not your mother tongue?

Airbrake

29th Jun 2010, 16:55

Zero.

This subject is too serious for petty attacks on individuals to derail it. However, when an individual contributes to a thread using the written word, they tend to be taken more seriously if they can be bothered to use a spell checker and show some awareness of Grammar.

If English isn't your first language then disregard this!

zerotohero

29th Jun 2010, 17:00

Yes I cant spell perfect English, freely admit that,,, no i don't work in a Library so don't really care, I can speak ICAO level 6 and thats what I need when talking to ATC,, and thats what they need talking to me,, if they cant spell perfectly I don't care!

Again,, very week argument, this thread is about ATC issues, one been that they cant speak english well enough, we are not texting each other in the flight deck nor do I want to become pen pals with them. :ugh:

Cernicalo

30th Jun 2010, 09:42

Zerotohero,

Thank you very much for your consideration with us. Your words can give me a clear idea the kind of person you are.

Fortunately, There are a lot of pilots quite different from zerotohero. I will give the best service I can every day, though nowadays are very difficult days for us here in Spain (worst in 30 years), ATC situation in Spain is an European experiment will expand in a lot of countries in the next months/years.

Best Regards and hoping someday you will change your opinion when good times come again, and hoping you will never be in the same situation we are now.

We will meet in frecuency,

Cernicalo.

Quote from Zerotohero:

Cercicalo wrote: "As maybe we talked each other in AGP, Could you please, write all the phrase: "Controllers on the job... training monitored"

Zerotohero wrote: "lol,,, when I hear that in Spain I cant but help write down idiot in training when copying down the ATIS."

Cernicalo

30th Jun 2010, 09:49

Oh my god.... I hope speaking much better than writting :confused:

Yes I cant spell perfect English, freely admit that,,, no i don't work in a Library so don't really care, I can speak ICAO level 6 and thats what I need when talking to ATC,, and thats what they need talking to me,, if they cant spell perfectly I don't care!

Again,, very week argument, this thread is about ATC issues, one been that they cant speak english well enough, we are not texting each other in the flight deck nor do I want to become pen pals with them.

LH2

30th Jun 2010, 12:37

A couple of remarks, while we're still off-topic.

ignoring English speaking a/c in favor of their mother tongue

While not disputing your assertion (and it works both ways too: I was spared a non-entirely unjustified telling off because the controller did not have the required fluency :E), I believe the pilots hold most of the responsibility on this one, as it is them who initiate communications. I know Spanish controllers will reply in English to the very few and very commendable local pilots who use that language. Funnily, they seem to communicate better than when a native speaker is involved :)

As for the comments about spelling...

Yes I cant spell perfect English, freely admit that,,, no i don't work in a Library so don't really care

It is my opinion that you should. For a start, not spelling correctly is a sign of a lack of education (some also say a lower middle class origin, but I won't go there :bored:); it also shows a lack of commitment to making oneself understood, and is disrespectful to your audience, a significant portion of which are not native speakers and thus will find your misspelled prose more difficult to follow than would be the case otherwise.

Mind you, it doesn't help that five of the six previous posts (Airbrake's excepted) contain spelling errors of one kind or another. :ok:

Avman

30th Jun 2010, 14:45

Although your argument is well founded LH2, I can't understand why you expect foreigners to spell correctly when half the 'educated' Brits posting on this site can't!

ATC Watcher

30th Jun 2010, 15:57

We are moving again in the old language/cultural debate ( also open in the French ATC thread).
A correction : We had the Shorts 360 fatal at CDG some years ago when language played a key part
No it did not, read again the report : a badly issued ATC conditional clearance ,combined with a poorly understood intersection line up caused this collision. (For memory : The T/O to the MD80 was in French but well before the conditional line up clearance issued to the Short, and both captains reported that none was monitoring the calls made on the R/T to other a/c due heavy workload at the time )
But there is indeed a recommendation in the report to study the use a single language in runway ops in CDG , but it was not a cause , even less a "key cause" .
In fact and this is "fortunately" or "unfortunately" ( I leave to you to choose the correct adjective ) there is no recorded accident where using a local language in addition to English was an issue.
Do not come with rumors and urban tales,( like Zagreb etc..) the fact is there is nothing in the ICAO accident database. This fact was even used by the Canadians to allow French in ATC in Quebec in 1976, and it still is in force today.
Cultural differences and lack of understanding each other are the problem, not the dual language.
Declaring an emergency for instance is seen in many cultures as an admission of failure. That has killed a lot of people. Dual use of language none.
Therefore ICAO has ( correctly and wisely in my opinion ) opted for the mandatory proficiency language training ( the famous level "4" ) instead of banning dual languages use.
For the Spanish or French ATC, yes they are very different from the UK, but who says the UK way of working is the one that everyone else in the world should use ?

lederhosen

30th Jun 2010, 16:36

ATC Watcher I normally agree with you. But I do not see the clear link between language proficiency training and the issue of dual language use. I would suggest that the latter was simply a bridge too far for ICAO mostly for political reasons. Arguing that they are acting wisely is putting it a bit strongly, at best they are acting pragmatically.

I am also surprised by the lack of any record of problems. You are saying that the controller in the trident midair with the Yugoslav DC9 spoke English at all times? How about the Canary Islands DanAir 727 where the controller ended up with him entering the hold the wrong way and hitting the mountain. He never used Spanish with the Spanish inter island turboprop that he was trying to put in front?

Turbulence reports in French are another bugbear, surely letting other pilots know might be helpful?

I do agree with your point about cultural differences. But some of them are not just national. They are also between controllers and pilots unfortunately.

HundredPercentPlease

30th Jun 2010, 17:22

No it did not, read again the report : a badly issued ATC conditional clearance ,combined with a poorly understood intersection line up caused this collision. (For memory : The T/O to the MD80 was in French but well before the conditional line up clearance issued to the Short, and both captains reported that none was monitoring the calls made on the R/T to other a/c due heavy workload at the time )
But there is indeed a recommendation in the report to study the use a single language in runway ops in CDG , but it was not a cause , even less a "key cause" .

You must have read a different report to me. I read this one (http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2000/g-wn000525a/pdf/g-wn000525a.pdf), which has in the conclusions:

Contributory factors include:

The use of two languages for radio communications, which meant that the
Shorts crew were not conscious that the MD 83 was going to take off.

http://garychapelhill.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/head-in-sand.jpg?w=180&h=142

ATC Watcher

30th Jun 2010, 18:02

Lederhosen : don’t get me wrong : I am not denying the fact that language issues were contributing factors to some accidents. They indeed were in a few, but they never were any CAUSE of an accident since ICAO started its database.
Zagreb, Cali, Tenerife, Dan air and KLM/Pan Am, New York/ Avianca etc.. are examples of this, but as contributing factors . The causes , all of them of these accidents were elsewhere.
Singleling out one contributing factor out of its context is unfortunately often done and generally lead to the wrong conclusions. Take Ueberlingen as a good example :the report has 2 immediate causes and 3 systemic causes, but has 21 contributing factors , each subject to a Recommendation.
But the failure of any one of those contributing factors ( say the lack of refresher safety training for controllers, or staff shortages, ) cannot be used to say it caused the collision, or was a " key issue " .

100% please : same comment as above You perhaps read too fast, again the question was about causes, not contributing factors.If you really read the BEA report , not only the last pages, and have access to the interviews of both Captains (unfortunately not in-extenso the BEA report ) you will see that dual language played in fact no role in that collision. But , as I said before, a single language could perhaps had alerted the Short crew that an aircraft was taking off on 27 had they be monitoring/ listening out on the frequency the other calls ( which they were not) , and previous incidents , (some of them mentioned on the report ) indicate that situation awareness would be greatly enhanced in international airports OPS should a single language ( i.e English )was used. Hence the recommendation. Unfortunately the implementation of that recommendation by French DGAC in CDG only lasted 2 days as Air France pilot union strongly opposed it and had it cancelled.

LH2

30th Jun 2010, 18:16

Unfortunately the implementation of that recommendation by French DGAC in CDG only lasted 2 days as Air France pilot union strongly opposed it and had it cancelled.

That is largely correct, except that in my recollection (I might be wrong), it was a minority ATC union who were the most vocal in opposing it, and eventually got the support of the right in the Assemblée. In the end it was the politicians who killed it--being helpful as always, aren't they? :hmm:

In their defence, the SEFA (France's government-owned pilot school) train their students to do all their comms in English.

Squawk7777

30th Jun 2010, 18:20

...indicate that situation awareness would be greatly enhanced in international airports OPS should a single language ( i.e English )was used.

and flight crews monitoring the frequency which a lot do not do (from personal experience).

68+iou1

30th Jun 2010, 18:25

ATC watcher, you previous input into most debates on pprune have been constructive and helpful!
Unfortunately, I’m losing respect for you. Please reread you comments and reconsider you arguments. I feel you’re making a fool of yourself!

Airbrake

30th Jun 2010, 19:12

ATC Watcher,

You are totally wrong to claim that the mixed use of French & English did not play a significant part in the CDG fatal.

As HundredPercentPlease has already pointed out it is stated in the report as a contributary factor and the following is a direct quote from the report.

They were then transferred to tower listening frequency. He (The Shorts Capt) heard a message in French which he did not understand, and the instruction in English concerning them “line up and wait, you are number two”

The message in French that the Shorts Captain did not understand was the Take off clearance to the MD80 and he thought he was number to an aircraft that had just passed them on landing I believe, he then moved forward towards the runway.

Mixing languages causes confusion, degrades situational awareness, and played a part in the death of the Shorts 360 First Officer. None of this is up for debate.

pilot18

30th Jun 2010, 19:39

but I have worked for a spanish lowcost for two years.

I can honestly say that ATC-Watcher has a point.
The "incidents" I have had were not related to the dual language being used but poor ATC work. But since my spanish improved during my two years there, I was able to interpret instructions to other traffic and act accordingly, sometimes against ATC instructions. MAD, BCN, BIO, AGP, etc...

The situations where I followed ATC instructions to the letter, is when I had the most incidents.

Most ATC in spain are very pleasent to work with and nice to chat with, when on the jumpseat, but their training is lacking.

I also feel that the spanish pilots are to blame, not for speaking spanish, but for accepting non-standard instructions, which leads to ATC expecting everyone to follow these instructions. And when they do not, confusion arises...

(please, I am not a native english speaker, so don't kill me for my spelling erors:))

ATC Watcher

30th Jun 2010, 20:49

68+iou1 and Airbrake : Do not let your emotions and beliefs alter your judgment. Look at the facts to make your opinion, do not look for some facts you like to confirm a pre-conceived belief.

Airbrake : In an aviation incident or accident everything is up for debate. Nothing is black and white . They are generally no “good guys” and “ bag guys” but a lot of pre-conceived ideas , not always delivering very good advice. This is what I was trying to explain in a few lines. A one day lecture would be more appropriate though.
For the sake of the argument, on the CDG collision just ask yourself, ( as we did during the investigation ) if the take off clearance to the MD80 had been in English, should this had changed anything ? If you think it did, send me a PM , I’ll send you the reasoning why it did not.

HundredPercentPlease

30th Jun 2010, 21:01

ATC Watcher,

That is not the point.

Do you think safety would be:

Improved
No different
Made worse

If all pilots on a frequency could understand all communications?

To the non-French/Spanish operating in their airspace, it appears that the preservation of their language is a higher priority than flight safety. And that has to be wrong, however long the lecture.

Squawk7777

30th Jun 2010, 21:28

If all pilots on a frequency could understand all communications?

They don't. At least pay attention. Ever since this argument came up, I have watched my captains, later my copilots and the majority do not pay much attention to transmissions that do not start with their callsign and trigger their attention ("cocktail party" effect) in English-only environments. I have seen this on both sides of the Atlantic. To summarize:

Do you think safety would be:

* No different

No different if you look at Europe and Canada. Worse if you consider Latin America.

it appears that the preservation of their language is a higher priority than flight safety.

that depends. In the US, Southwest usually gets priority handling, in Germany LH or AB, in France AF, in the UK (depending what airport) UK carriers over foreign carriers. I have seen it all.

It is more an issue about the quality of an ATCO (or system) than the languages used. As ATC Watcher has pointed out correctly, no dual language or non-English transmission has directly lead to an accident. With every accident there are always lots of ifs and it is easy to blame it on a foreign language that one doesn't understand. Let's not start talking about UHF traffic that we cannot hear, that fact usually gets quietly ignored. :ooh:

ATC Watcher

30th Jun 2010, 21:31

100% Please: Politics and Flight safety do not mix well . I grant you that one without a wink.
But the problems with Spanish and French ATC are not language-based.

Regarding your question : if all pilots on a frequency could understand all communications : would that improve or make no difference. The obvious fast answer would be “improve of course “ . But can you scientifically (as opposed to emotionally ) prove it ?
That is much more difficult, and we tried but , especially for en route ATC ( as an IFR environment ) you will find that evidence does not support clear safety benefits there. In a VFR/VMC and ground movement International airports , there are clearer benefits. Now the politicians argue Nationalistic claims, and some pilots Unions argue that safety is enhanced when pilots and controller speak in their native tongue (e.g. . eliminations of ambiguities ) That stand was perhaps valid in the past until about a year ago . Now the argument is gone since we are all supposed to be English level 4.

I personally think that Spain and France will introduce soon English only in International airports and en route ATC. Not really to improve safety , as the authorities will argue it was never compromised because of it, but to allow mobility of ATC staff around Europe.

We’ll get the safety benefits for the wrong reasons, as always.

Now it is time for a Cognac . Cheers :ok:

HundredPercentPlease

30th Jun 2010, 22:23

ATC Watcher - I hope so. And, enjoy! :)

Squawk777, I think you missed the point. To say that speaking in two different languages is just as safe as one because you know some of the world's most gash pilots is not a convincing argument.

The "local a/c getting priority" issue was not in question - understanding what on earth is going on is. I speak good French, but in Spain I might as well have a SELCAL.

Nightstop

30th Jun 2010, 23:10

Back to the topic:

Impressed yesterday afternoon with the patience shown by the MAD 36R TWR controller when verbally abused by a succession of Iberia Primadonnas & an Air Europa at the holding point. One even made an insulting remark in Spanish that "the foreigners should go to the back of the queue". Pity though that the controller was eventually bullied into doing just that, explaining somewhat unconvincingly that the Iberia's and Air Europa had CTOT's to meet :mad:

ispra

30th Jun 2010, 23:15

I followed this thread with interest as I have operated in Spain for both UK and Spanish airlines. I happen to believe the ATC in Spain is not as bad as this thread makes out, but I do pay extra attention to TCAS targets and the airspace around me as I believe we all should. However my main point is that the "them and us" mentality is growing and someone or some organisation or union should get pilots and controllers together for on the job appreciation of what each other does. I have always been surprised how little understanding and actual experience the two branches of aviation have of one another. With the bitching and moaning expressed in these posts I strongly suggest the time is right for if not a "love in" some kind of formal joint experience activity.

garp

1st Jul 2010, 21:19

^^^Excellent first post (even if it's after being a member since 04)

ATC Watcher

2nd Jul 2010, 07:05

Ispra : absolutely ! IFALPA and IFATCA should perhaps take the lead on this.
9/11 killed the ATC familiarisation flights, now 10 years later it is time to re-open the subject.
Joint activities should be initiated . The joint simulators sessions for emergency training ( like those by Lufhansa- DFS in Frankfurt) or joint 2-3 days CRM-TRM training sessions ( like IranAir-Iran ATC does), or social events : ( get together evenings ) are the way to go.

Avman

2nd Jul 2010, 08:52

ATC Watcher, basic one-day fam-flights are still possible with some companies. The problem stems from lack of financial support and lack of time for the controllers (who have to use their valuable OFF days for this). What has had more impact since 911 is that when flying as regular pax it is (with some small exceptions) no longer possible for ATCOs to simply identify themselves and make the ride up front as so often used to be the case. I remember the days when I used to make around 60-80 flights per year and probably spent 90% of the time at the pointy end.

Denti

2nd Jul 2010, 10:27

Even that depends, over here in germany it is still possible for a local (german employed) ATCO to identify himself and ride up front. Well, except for flights into the UK and USA.

Maverick Laddie

4th Jul 2010, 21:14

What ever problems the ATC are having there cause is not being help in the eyes of the travelling spanish public with incidents as I was a party too yesterday in MAD. Delayed flights one can live with there a way of life nowadays, But Seven published gate changes over the 6 hour delay must be close to a record.
The sight of 100 plus paying passengers some with small kids moving like sheep from one end of Terminal 2 to the other only to have there hopes dashed normally well after the ETD with a further new gate location, It had to be seen to be believed, Take my hat off to the Captain though came out to the gate finally on arrival and faced the crowd, :D My personal observation on yesterday Never have so many un necessary runway changes been initiated by so few to get there point of view across. :ugh:

Squawk7777

5th Jul 2010, 05:08

Squawk777, I think you missed the point. To say that speaking in two different languages is just as safe as one because you know some of the world's most gash pilots is not a convincing argument.

Oddly enough, this "dangerous dual-language" ATC discussion seems to be the pet argument by monoglots. Having talked to bilingual pilots that fly into dual-language airspace and that do not understand the non-English/foreign transmissions, there doesn't seem to be the hype and hysteria as compared to certain other individuals. :suspect:

Another fact that I have brought up and no one really seemed to put any attention to is the use of UHF transmission to our military colleagues. It seems to me that the "dangerous dual-language" ATC argument is just directed at a certain country/culture to satisfy someone's needs. :ugh: :hmm:

And it's 7 7 7 7, please ;)

10W

5th Jul 2010, 09:01

68+iou1

5th Jul 2010, 09:18

So the JAL crew coming into Paris/Madrid after a 12 hour flight have the same level of situational awareness as if they were flying into London/Amsterdam?
Wake up and smell the roses!
It is a safety issue!

MagnusP

5th Jul 2010, 09:25

Is there not a fairly simple logistical issue here? Surely it's easier for ATCOs and pilots to learn 1 additional language for consistency of communication than it would be for all pilots to learn all languages for the destinations into which they might fly? I don't care whether it's Mandarin, Esperanto or Klingon but I'd like to think that those who work in the industry could take the shortest route to maximising safe instruction and advice.

andrijander

5th Jul 2010, 10:12

UHF for the militaries;

CPDLC (yes, we need a readback, but when freq. is busy sometimes we get it after they start turning or descending);

and let's not forget my favourite: when there are aircraft released in one airspace to the adjacent airspace's controller. (For the thick ones out there, that means controller from sector A talking to an aircraft in sector B, therefore the only ones aware of what's going on are the controllers).

I am not shutting down the whole "using one language" based on these above, but seriously, awareness nowadays is overrated (read above, it happens more often than you think and you don't even know).

I understand that using two languages, in some situations, can be pretty bad (runway, ground movement in busy airports, small/busy APP/area sectors, etc..). But IMHO that is when there is already a bad judgment call. Bad calls can happen in any language.

Once a pilot told me off for giving a freq. change to another aircraft in another language...the aircraft was 100 NM away and increasing quickly. Now, if that would have been a vital instruction, it would have been said in english and, when applicable, TFC INFO would have issued to really put the awareness in there.

A bit of trust for some of us, please, we're not all dumb. And also, yes, sometimes you just don't need to know it all. If you would, we'd call you about it.

Squawk7777

5th Jul 2010, 10:56

That's a lot of wisdom for a 10 year old!

cumulustratus

6th Jul 2010, 19:46

Andrijander wrote:
A bit of trust for some of us, please, we're not all dumb. And also, yes, sometimes you just don't need to know it all. If you would, we'd call you about it.Oh dear. Who goes first?

Alpinepilot

17th Jul 2010, 21:17

Really impressed by Spanish ATC today... Outbound a slot of 1 hr 10, then a slot of 2 hrs 30 on the return. So the end result is our next two sectors are cancelled and 300 people who are in the Adriatic (no where near spain) have their holidays wrecked.
Congratulations.. You may be facing a pay cut, but you are killing us and our customers. We will lose our jobs and those associated with our industry.
I have listened to Spanair's, Airberlin's and Easy's all getting frustrated by your inability to provide the service we pay for, well done! You are achieving nothing but you are threatening our jobs, our passengers and your jobs in the long term!
Get back to doing your job as well as we do ours, be Proud to be Spanish, be Excellent!
Then respect will be restored!

17th Jul 2010, 21:33

They'll be putting themselves out of a job soon. If you have to follow "standard routing" including the entire SID/STAR as we did today....... why do you need controllers? The whole thing could be controlled by a computer.

Have to admit it's now becoming a royal pain in the ar$e to fly through France / Spain. Last night back from Germany....... direct DENUT - close to 250nm. The reason of "sector overload" is BS. They've managed for the last 10 years and we now have considerably LESS traffic than a couple of years ago. I think the airlines should get together and ask our new super coalition to ask the French and Spanish governments what the hell's is going on. They could even play the green card. :hmm:

A4 :mad:

andrijander

17th Jul 2010, 22:14

For those who do not know me: I am a Spanish controller, but do not work in Spain.

2 things; just to keep them into consideration.

Directs at night are many times more feasible than during the day. Everywhere (coming from someone who, if allowed, can/will give you directs of over 300NM everytime). Less TFC and no military areas are normally the rule at those times, therefore the availability (both factors outside our control).

Where I work, our busiest day we managed aprox. 5100 flights in 1 day. This month, we are consistently managing between 4500 and 4900 flts/day. Not too far off our busiest (the 5000 was pre-crisis, so we could say we're back where we left it...or almost).

I do not know how good or bad was ATC in Spain (or France for that matter, since it seems they get the stick treatment often around here too), say, last year compared to now. I would think it has gotten worse for what I can read here in pprune. I also happen to read other pages, closer to the Spanish aviation sector, and they go along the same line (funnily enough the ones complaining there about the service "hitting the fan" are the very same controllers you are ranting about).

But I do know that if you ask the spanish government you're not gonna get the truth. Since you're pilots, how about you ask the Spanish pilot association (COPAC)? Maybe you'll be thrilled to know they just announced the creation of a technical committee including controllers and pilots (since the regulatory bodies which have to take technical decisions on operational areas seem to, consistently, forget to involve the operational players when taking those decisions). I think you'd get a better insight on what's going on. If you really care that is; if this is just a stress reliever: just disregard all after my introduction.

BTW, FPL adherence is coming, wether we like it or not. I must say where I work we don't like the idea (if there's space and you fit get in, we say). Unfortunately neighbouring centers do not think in the same way and these days we're getting a lot of...let's call it "peer pressure". Most of the time you guys up there don't know (maybe except after reaching your RFL, when it differs from FPL, and you're asked to go back down to FPL...or you're not allowed up altogether). But we can only take so much and for that long. I know first hand that, as soon as feasible, things will change in central europe too.

But then again at the end of the day, ATC is just the tip of the iceberg of ground support. There's lots happening beneath the surface. If you care to look, you'll see.

A.

411A

17th Jul 2010, 22:51

We will lose our jobs and those associated with our industry.
What rubbish.
Folks will just travel somewhere else other than Spain...tough sh*t for the Spanish hotel industry...I expect many could care less.

IE: the world does not revolve around Spain.

vapilot2004

17th Jul 2010, 22:58

Put them to work at the NY TRACON for a few weeks - with an experienced ATC standing over their shoulder of course, then let's see how much they appreciate their own sectors back home in the old country.

fireflybob

17th Jul 2010, 23:28

Remember was Ronnie Reagan fired all the US Air Traffic Controllers and then offered them new jobs with different Ts and Cs? I can see this happening in Spain - interesting times ahead!

Have to admit it's now becoming a royal pain in the ar$e to fly through France / Spain. Last night back from Germany....... direct DENUT - close to 250nm. The reason of "sector overload" is BS.

A4, totally agree - just had direct DENUT tonight with about 250 nm to go!

Also as a comparison when I worked in the Railway Industry as a Signaller if we delayed a trained unnecessarily then Network Rail had to pay money to the operating companies who were delayed - so much per minute depending on the type of line etc. The airlines pay for ATC services. If delays are proved to be unnecessary then, on a similar basis, the State concerned should pay money to the airlines.

Alpinepilot

18th Jul 2010, 07:51

We all know there are rules about our use of the R/T. so...
Cut out the pleasantries ( good morning , Mubuenas, Goodbye etc) Arrive on frequency and ask for Direct to the Spanish exit point of their FIR or Final approach fix if inbound. IF we all do this they will soon understand that we are (spanish flights included) collectively fed up with their intransigence.
Our passengers, our crew and our companies deserve better from Spain, over to YOU to get the message across.

criss

18th Jul 2010, 08:11

It's only Me

18th Jul 2010, 08:13

Re don't go to Spain go somewhere else; well I did last night - 2 30 late because of the Spanish slot delays from earlier in the day!

Me

criss

18th Jul 2010, 08:25

And of course slot delays don't happen in other countries. NEVER.

BEagle

18th Jul 2010, 08:31

Also as a comparison when I worked in the railway industry as a signaller if we delayed a train unnecessarily then Network Rail had to pay money to the operating companies who were delayed - so much per minute depending on the type of line etc.

Yes, but surely trains stayed on the tracks, rather than asking for direct cross-country routes and then bleating when they were denied?

fivegreenlight

18th Jul 2010, 08:35

Experienced some appalling spanish atc recently. controller ranting on the radio about how hard he works and it's not his fault. However 8 aircraft waiting over 1.5 hrs for slots that originated at the airport and they all had the same slot - I do mean exactly the same ! The farce of all 8 trying to push for the same slot and get airborne was unbelievable. Calls to company confirmed slot was originating at the airport but controller insisted it was the fault of the French, or anybody he could think of. Holding airlines to ransome has got to stop:mad:

criss

18th Jul 2010, 08:38

Now that would be quite an airport :}

His dudeness

18th Jul 2010, 08:57

FPL adherence is coming, wether we like it or not

Exactly what we need, especially with the ETS. Burn more fuel -> more money for the treasury. A fool who thinks there is a connection, right ?

European ATC as a whole and the more southerners especially need to be governed in a customer oriented way. They (Eurocontrol and their parts like CFMU etc) are far to independent. Nobody actually can really find the real reasons behind delays, let alone make them liable for it. And that is exactly the prob IMO. Make the agencies pay if there would be a workable way around a restriction (not saying we should overload the controllers), make them proof a restriction was unavoidable. Make them being customer friendly. After all we pay them.

Avman

18th Jul 2010, 09:18

So much idiotic generalisation and cr@p from so-called pilots who are obviously totally ignorant about ATC and it's increasingly complex operational and political problems. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at some of the rubbish I've read above.

Tight Seat

18th Jul 2010, 09:23

A note to ATC at ALC (LEAL). Thanks so much for sitting around doing c@ck all yesterday. I think not only my 160 pax , but the other 10 or so aircraft sitting waiting for slots would like to congratulate you on making yourselves the laughing stock of international aviation.

The excuse for the 2 hour plus slots, ' we have only me in the tower and we are very busy'! Busy my backside. Only landings for one 40 min period.

The only slight satisfaction I got was pumping out complex hydrocarbons out of the APU for 3 hours. Up yours I say.

Alpinepilot

18th Jul 2010, 09:50

Yes, other places do have slots , BUT not for political or industrial relations reasons. At least the French go on strike for a known period of time and then get back to normal ish! Next one wednesday I think!

Palma the other day, 5 plus aircraft with the same slot time all trying to push and taxi at once, That really is brilliant ATC!

Barcelona the other night "sorry we have lost your slot" as we taxi out.... Fantastic.

Our passengers get to destination but 3 hrs late, missing the last train, bus etc all due to Spanish ATC.
We, as pilots, are really NOT impressed by your lack of willingness or ability to play your part in restoring the publics faith in aviation as a safe and normally reliable means of transport.
You are meant to be HELPING us to do our job, not obstructing us.

Microburst2002

18th Jul 2010, 10:03

This thread makes most of you look like children!

You guys don't know a sh*t about what is happening in Spain and the ATC. It is quite a complex matter, and you should be glad that the ATC people haven't made a real strike.

Imagine the russians lauch the nuclear missiles on the USA, and the USA starts a diplomatic offensive against Russia. That is exactly what is happening in Spain. The government has smashed the ATC. The government hast kicked the wasp nest, and the wasps don't want to attack the government because they are afraid of the consequences! Can you imagine?

And there is a campaing in the media against them, accusing them of all the things you can imagine. They are so afraid! All because there is a lot of people interested in buying the spanish state air navigation agency, AENA, which is one of the best bussiness in the world. And the ATC is the excuse they use to make people believe that it is all a mess, and that in private hands everything would be OK.

They simply want to steal the golden eggs chicken, That all. And use to ATCs to achieve it.

So what are the ATC guys doing? They are not striking, because that would be the excuse the government needs to sell AENA to their close friends. They are simply working to the limit of their capacity because the government hastn hired a controller in many years. The fact is that they are extremely overloaded, and the slots in this season, the busiest of the year in Spain, is just a natural consequence.

With the actual conditions, only in the realm of science fiction there is going to be a summer without regulations.

So, guys, don't try to solve the problems of the world all alone. And if that is what you want, Why don't you discuss the middle east problems? You know about that exactly the same as the spanish ATC problem: NOTHING. So go ahead.

And a last though:

Sh*t for Europe!

BitMoreRightRudder

18th Jul 2010, 10:14

They are so afraid! All because there is a lot of people interested in buying the spanish state air navigation agency, AENA, which is one of the best bussiness in the world

You mean the one that lost 300 million Euro last year?

Tight Seat

18th Jul 2010, 10:30

Unfortunatly Microburst2002, if it was Spanish ATC that was trying to launch a nuclear missile, the bloody thing would miss its slot and end up in the silo for 2 hours.....

You think that you're going to get sympathy for the airline industry after the last 3 years of trading you're barking up the wrong donkey.

Chesty Morgan

18th Jul 2010, 10:34

They are simply working to the limit of their capacity

And why has that capacity suddenly reduced so significantly?!

Right Way Up

18th Jul 2010, 10:35

You think that you're going to get sympathy for the airline industry after the last 3 years of trading you're barking up the wrong donkey.

Too right!!

If the "normal" service was anything to get excited about ten you might get some sympathy. However it seems that Spanish ATCOs have been paid bucketloads for a third world service. All European nationality pilots have stories regarding spanish ATC. From being given taxi instructions at 100 kts at PMI to being blatantly ignored by Delivery at Madrid, whilst Spanish clearances are being given out.

Flare-Idle

18th Jul 2010, 11:28

Micro...
I don’t know what kind of paranoia or phobia you’re suffering from, but the drugs you’re taking are obviously worsening the situation even more…
There must be a certain element of truth in the heated discussions about Spanish and French ATCOs performance and this is more likely related to the general working morale in both countries rather than an “overload” condition. As clients, we receive excellent service from the really overloaded British, Dutch, Maastricht, German, Scandinavian, Swiss and other European ATC centers while operating in your airspaces is among occasional exemptions just a disaster.
The time for your golden ancient privileges is over and the longer you continue to exhibit the ancient and present working morale, the faster you’ll see AENA being privatized and its workforce “exchanged”. More work for less pay and retirement with age 65 is also your destiny. Either you comply or “die”…

F.I.

JToledo

18th Jul 2010, 11:33

First a reminder of how ATCFM works but please keep reading for the interesting part below.

It’s not the tower controller the one to set CTOTs for aircraft on the ground. It’s the CFMU in Brussels, using all of the information gathered for sector capacity and weather enroute for the whole of Europe. The job of the tower controller is to relay this information and make sure the CTOT is met to insure there are no overloads on any sector in the route.

If there are several CTOTs coinciding in time, then blame CFMU, but at any rate that is exactly the reason there is a -5+10 buffer time, to organise a departure sequence. Notice that this buffer is to be used for this reason only, as the system works best when the CTOT is met exactly.

I think you should be a lot more interested in what the actual causes for the delays are, and those are no other than ATC staff shortages since we are falling prey to stress related illnesses in an snowballing fashion due to increased pressure. Let me give you some examples:

Last Friday a tower controller at LEVC that had been alone on duty had asked for got a denial for a reduction in incoming traffic. He finally fainted and was evacuated in an ambulance. (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&act=url&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.levante-emv.com%2Fcomunitat-valenciana%2F2010%2F07%2F18%2Ftenia-aviones-aire-sentia-perdido%2F723734.html&sl=es&tl=en)

Eight of us were on sick leave last Thursday evening at LECB. Traffic flow regulations were not initially set on place, which meant that rather than the 33 aircraft per hour which is the mandated limit for a collapsed sector, there were 52. At least two of the controllers on duty that evening had anxiety attacks and went on sick leave the next day.

I was one of the initial eight missing. I assure you it’s not easy to accept. I am generally known to be a most serene person, I was selected among thousands in a psychological test as frustration resistant, and I actually enjoy having a decent amount of traffic on the frequency to test my skills. And yet on Thursday morning there I was crying like a little baby waiting to be attended of an acute anxiety attack.

But of course we have been trained to deal with aircraft, not soulless beancounters (and save yourselves any comments about low standards in Spain, I may actually agree with many of those). Its been months now that the pendulum has gone full swing. We may have been possibly overpayed, but at least rest periods were reasonable and staffing levels assured that we went close to maximum capacity only for short periods of time. All that is long gone. Anybody older that 57 has been retired from the frequency by decree, no matter what their health status was. And now everybody is working longer hours, many more days a month, in dreadful conditions and under the constant scrutiny of management, which is quick to take disciplinary action.

Even with all those measures, because they have not enrolled any new controllers since 2006 and actually sent home too many, and as they are already maxing us out with 200 hours per month, sometimes with only ONE day free in the month, they are actually planning on introducing monocontroller radar positions everywhere. You may have heard of those: Lake Constanza.

It’s in this environment, where after months of company mobbing traffic picks up in summer and people are simply breaking up.

But then, I ask you. Are you really feeling safe knowing that when you are flying to Girona, only one out of the four controllers that should have been there is present at the tower? The tower had to close for two hours just to give him his mandatory resting period, but of course he was maxed out the rest of the day.

Do you think that there has been any safety studies involved when management has decided that the same 80 movements per hour can be allowed at LEBL when they are up to four people short than if there is full staff?

Do you really believe that it is conducting to safe operations than when more and more people are breaking apart due to stress levels, AENA assigns mandatory shifts for the very few that actually have a day off, or altogether cancels holidays?

I started my aviation days in the UK. And it was there that I learned that when things get rough that is precisely when you have to stick the most to procedure, because that is what they are there for. The calculations for sector loads work when everybody departs at the calculated time, they fly their expected routes and maintain their reported flight level. Or would you rather have been the one in the pack of the 50% overloaded sector?

Rest assured all of this is now been reported to EASA directly, after months of disregard from our own national safety agency.

We have also grown used to the press regurgitating AENA’s press releases verbatim accusing us of simply not showing up for work, even though all of us on sick leave are so by doctor prescription. But I have to say that I am most depressed by watching the response of many pilots on this thread. My life may be miserable nowadays, but yours are the ones at stake. Don’t you forget that.

I am sorry about the hours of delay you are enduring. If it is any consolation I had been looking forward to a holiday in France next week already paid for that I won’t enjoy now since I’m on sick leave. We are trying our best to maintain a safe operation in an environment fast degrading. And I think that should be first in all of our minds. Specially yours.

Kind regards.
Juan.

Tight Seat

18th Jul 2010, 11:57

Thank you Juan for an open letter.

We in the aviation business should work together for all safety matters. I don't believe that the way you and your colleagues are going about this is correct. As I see it, it is you vs the government, so what you do is take it out on airlines.

Stress is something we all have to deal with on a daily basis. I have had my pay reduced, my pension reduced by half, I'm working 90+ hours every 28 days. My shifts are totally random, days nights earlies ... This I cope with by having an active life outside aviation. What really makes by blood pressure rise is sitting ( yet again) at a Spanish airport for hours, being talk at by rude ignorant controller, trying to lecture me about what a slot time means ( and getting it wrong).

By all means work to rule, just try and do that bit well.

a.mandon

18th Jul 2010, 12:15

Kick the tires said: "and in Madrid, I have witnessed some of the worst ATC in Europe, from some of the most highly paid"

You can't win them all.
Some countries are good at ATC and bad at Football
Spain is the opposite.
France is bad at both.:rolleyes:

davelongdon

18th Jul 2010, 12:57

Heres my situation when I was flying to Ibiza from the UK

Gerona, This G-$%LG

G-LG Pass your message

G-LG PA-28 out of Poitiers bound for Sabadell routing Perpignan, Girona currently 30nm north of yourselves FL 75 request a zone transit.

G-LG cleared for a zone transit direct Girona VOR. Report overhead.

......Some minutes later after reporting several positions from the VOR.

G-LG please descend to 2,500 feet and turn onto a heading of 270, you are blocking inbound Ryanair traffic

Can Not Comply, you are requesting I descend into a mountain to the west. G-LG

G-LG, I am having to route the IFR traffic around you.

Your the one who cleared me in the first place to this route. G-LG.

The other situation.....Barcelona giving me 4 incorrect frequencies for Ibiza approach/Palma control.....having to ask Mr Thomson 757 inbound at FL180 for correct one, after no answer on frequencies off chart.

Maybe wed be better off without them :D

fireflybob

18th Jul 2010, 13:18

Yes, but surely trains stayed on the tracks, rather than asking for direct cross-country routes and then bleating when they were denied?

Beagle, nice one! They did must of the time! But the fact that a/c can operate in 3 dimensions surely makes for more flexibility, something which the Spanish ATC are denying a/c due to their work to rule!

PS We didn't give trains level changes instructions too often.

This thread makes most of you look like children!

Really? So there's nothing childish about the way Spanish ATC is behaving at the moment? Pot calling the kettle black methinks!

Avman

18th Jul 2010, 14:06

By all means work to rule, just try and do that bit well.

From what I can see they are doing just that. Working to rule certainly doesn't involve providing shortcuts to start with!

As I see it, it is you vs the government, so what you do is take it out on airlines.

How naive can you be?

andrijander

18th Jul 2010, 16:29

Quote from Chesty Morgan:

They are simply working to the limit of their capacity

And why has that capacity suddenly reduced so significantly?!

How about because the ministry of transportation, in their infinite wisdom, when releasing the royal decree decided to retire form any operational post all and any person over 57y.o.
Just like that, no mitigating measures, just all out from one day to the next. It should be obvious to anybody that if you just do that, you're gonna end up with less staff than you need (especially if you haven't hired in 4 years...you know, people die and stuff). So since February staff has effectively been reduced by approximately 25% (don't know the hard number, but this what I've gathered, so treat it with the appropriate caution).

Matter of fact, the whole thing is soooooo bad that some controllers are doing over 200 hours a month. Compulsory. And that IS shift work (sometimes the only day off they get is after a night shift...which where I work is called a sleeping day. Sometimes not even that and they have to work also the very same afternoon).

Anyway I digress: it's soooo bad because also this royal decree states that controllers will not exceed 1670 hours per year (they can opt for 80 overtime so total 1750h but they are desperate for time off...you know people have families and things called hobbies and such). Let me do the math: 200x12=2400h. If you think summer is bad wait for it. This is just a warm up (pun intended).

But hey people, keep ranting, don't let me disturb you or your conscience.
A.

paidworker

18th Jul 2010, 17:00

Juan,

Nice post , dont expect most here to understand ,, good at moaning about their own terms and conditions being eroded and jealous of anybody with better ones . Much easier for most to regurgitate the AENA / management bullet points and see only one side of the coin or just plain not inform themselves.

You make a very good point that the underlying issues effect the safety of the very people who are decrying you. Many european people have a very stereotypical view of the Spanish sadly also which doesnt help things. The fact is if the same cuts were made to say the NHS there would be sick and injured people stacked up outside accident and emergency quickly followed by a civil coup.

fivegreenlight

18th Jul 2010, 17:41

Criss, I understand why you think a/c having the same slot is implausable but it happened. Im not the only one reporting this. If you work in atc then take a look at what is actually happening on a daily basis rather than trying to pretend the spanish are no worse than any other atc.

DinoCraft9

18th Jul 2010, 18:18

First of all state that the french ATC is also currently carrying out the work to rule method to claim what they think they deserve. I have suffered it the last weeks on the Paris and Reims sectors with the same results as you describe above (no better levels, no shortcuts) And for those that feel treated unequally just go to CDG and you'll get tired of giving way to AF flights, both airborne and on the ground, even towed!! (This is for Alpinepilot, no hard feelings s.v.p.)
It's the means they have to put preasure on their administrators, maybe if we pilots were less coward and did the same we'd be enjoying much better T's & C's or at least not seeing them worsening by the minute while managers' bonuses don't seem to be affected by the recession. If any, they're the enemy, not ATC or ourselves as one can extract from reading most of the posts here.

Another issue here is mixing the matter of their work-to-rule (like it or not) right and the good or bad they are, the same applies for their salary. As far as I'm concerned there are no more accidents or incidents than elsewhere in EU (please no comments on Tenerife, that's long away enough...). Regarding the salary I'd gladly start a thread on politians' salaries or even on aviation managers' salaries and its relation to their succes on their duties. Join me?

The point I am trying to make here is that we should take care of our own business and let them (ATC) deal with theirs. Of course it afects us but this is life, we have to be mature enough to put ourselves into the other's skin and do not be so selfish. Just take a flight as a passenger and have any tech or weather issue and listen to your travel mates' comments, then you'll realise how much they hate us when things don't go as they wished (don't say you're a pilot then! :oh:), you'll hear how much we earn, how many days off we have, all the affairs we have with the cabin crew and the rest of the legends... Not to mention if it's a strike or something related to duty time and rest periods!

I hope this serves to some of you to rethink about this; for the rest: I'm ready to be eaten!
:ok:

tonker

18th Jul 2010, 18:26

Why is it that after you pass big mountains although the wages go up, the ATC just becomes a noisy hinderance that just adds to endless confusion.

"the runway in Murcia is....." Yeah, sure it is, i just spoke to them too:uhoh:

Pisa, Ibiza and today Malaga with Seville radar just making things worse.

You know it's bad when people just start organising descent speeds etc between themselves on guard with each other!!!!

Split on the other hand seems to be run by people who seem to know something about what we as operators need:ok:

Greek God

18th Jul 2010, 19:05

While I can empathise to some degree about the situation what I do not accept is the peripheral pettiness displayed specifically at Agp, Alc, Pmi, Bcn where there is a complete lack of cooperation and flexibility which has nothing to do flow control and everything to do with willful obstruction. In the past 2 weeks I have personally experienced and been witness to at least a dozen episodes and 3 airborne arguments over the RT; in over 15 years I have never known such a I am now ASRing any such event but I feel the frustrations will build and become a serious flight safety issue unless something is done soon.
Meanwhile it is the passengers that suffer.

Avman

18th Jul 2010, 21:44

I feel the frustrations will build and become a serious flight safety issue unless something is done soon.

I suggest you contact those who are really responsible for this, and I don't mean the ATCOs.

maybepilot

18th Jul 2010, 23:33

Glad to announce to Spanish and French ATCO's that my company has officially asked us to report any operational incidents within their airspace, even those we would normally accept as spurious harmless mistakes.
This means that we will be monitoring every operational step from R/T's to radar to on-ground services and officially report anything done in a non-standard way or that may have even the smallest negative impact on the operation of our aircraft.

Nightstop

19th Jul 2010, 08:26

MAD ATC:

"Can you make a long push to allow a pushback from Stand Tx?"

Pilot:

"Negative".

MAD ATC:

"Can you please move forward over the holding point 15A (or 15B) to allow a widebody on taxiway A to pass behind?"

Pilot:

"Negative".

Avman

19th Jul 2010, 09:45

Studi, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON IN SPANISH ATC !!!

Actually you are another of many ignorant pilots who post rubbish because you just don't understand what's at stake here. If the Spanish government gets away with what it did it could affect all of us in the long run. This is NOT just about money. You need to understand the problem before you start spouting off.

I'm off on my hols now.

Chesty Morgan

19th Jul 2010, 10:10

Avman et al, you honestly expect us to believe your selfless actions are for the greater good of all of us? Well thanks but no thanks.

If the situation in Spanish ATC is not just about money and it's about you doing 200 hours a month with only one day off and you feel that you can't safely do your job then file an ASR (you do know what they are don't you?) and call in sick. Don't come to work and screw things up for every other person that has to use your "service".

...some controllers are doing over 200 hours a month. Compulsory...(sometimes the only day off they get is after a night shift...Sometimes not even that and they have to work also the very same afternoon)...it's soooo bad because also this royal decree states that controllers will not exceed 1670 hours per year (they can opt for 80 overtime so total 1750h but they are desperate for time off...you know people have families and things called hobbies and such). Let me do the math: 200x12=2400h...

Don't we all but your selfish, ignorant actions are preventing other people from seeing their families and getting on with their lives. You don't realise or care about that do you.

You call yourselves professionals but you couldn't be further from the truth. If you are at work you do your job to the best of your ability. If you can't or wont then just stay at home and stop trying to hold the rest of the world to ransom. What little sympathy you may have had for your situation is slowly being eroded by your very own actions.

Man up or get out.

Microburst2002

19th Jul 2010, 11:23

You guys still don't know a sh*t about the problem, and there are a couple of very enlightening posts, like that of Juan.

You simply don't know.

After what the government did, the natural consequence would have been a total strike. And that is exactly what the government was waiting for.
It didn't occur, so now they are making a carpet bombing media campaing to make the ignorant people (including many of you, I'm afraid) believe that there is an undercover strike.

The ATCOs are just trying to survive all the carpet bombings and torpedos under the float line they have been thrown.

I am not a spanish ATCO myself. I am only a pilot who understands that there is some reason when the ATCOs go to strike, when the Madrid undergroud workers go to strike, when the french ATCOs or whatever workers go to strike.

You prefer the theory that they are evil, in their very nature, which is quite a childish way of thinking, isn't it?

I understand a bit more about the problem than the vast majority of you. It is quite complex, believe me, and the ATCOs didn't start it, nor know how to stop it. The situation is very critical, they don't even have a path to retreat. At any time a serious incident, or something much worse (god forbid) can happen. Watch out.

Don`t rely on the media, they are just a part of the problem. Today, all media agree regarding the ATCOs. Agreement from the far left to the far right. Amazing. Only because the big companys behind the media groups agree that AENA and the spanish airports should be privatized. After they succeed, there will be agreement no more, and a battle will begin when who will get the golden eggs chicken is to be decided.

If you guys don't know that AENA and the airports are the golden eggs chicken, then guys... You don't know a sh*t, and pardon me. It is. If they privatize I will invest all my savings to buy shares (if there is any left).

You are suffering massive delays and cancelations, only because there are people who want to STEAL a lot of money from all the spaniards. that's it.

So watch out, because the situation is completely out of control of the ATCos. It is not in their hands to solve the problem. If they just work as they are demanded, they will collapse. They are collapsing, now. if they don't, then you will have faulty ATCOs controlling you.

But don't worry. Almost unnoticed has gone the fact that ATC services are being liberalized, and in about 10 years you will be controlled by Pay to Control ATCOs. How about that???

And all thanks to EUROPE, that stupid word they have used to steal us more efficently and expeditiously.

andrijander

19th Jul 2010, 11:24

If the situation in Spanish ATC is not just about money and it's about you doing 200 hours a month with only one day off and you feel that you can't safely do your job then file an ASR (you do know what they are don't you?) and call in sick.

And just what do you think the delays last week or so are about? They're understaffed and under pressure and people is starting to break (they've been publicly hanged for all to see since February, it's 6 months already with undermined T&C's...and WTF with money already, everybody is talking about it but the controllers!!)

They've done just that, some of them have gone sick because they're breaking down, and now the ministry of infrastructure is demanding an investigation into why they're sick (seriously). But they're only gonna investigate if the doctors are allowing them off duty when they shouldn't (so I'm guessing that now they are gonna put it on the doctors to NOT give them time off for medical reasons). Put yourselves in their shoes here, imagine 28 duties in a month. Sometimes working all night and then an afternoon afterwards, then next morning. Sometimes you have to take your kids to work (!!). You do not get rest and even get sh!t when you've got some precious time off (news, uninformed people, informed people willing to screw'em up more). Tell me if you'd feel fit for duty after 6 months of this.

This past week Spanish union presented a proposal for new T&C's covering over 55% of the whole. AENA, so far, has only presented 12.5%. The company doesn't wanna negotiate.

I do not work in Spain but do try to keep myself well informed. This is not about money, this is about safety. The ministry and AENA (almost the same thing, when it shouldn't be) just want cheap overworked labour. Unfortunately in this business that is paired with something else. And the controllers are trying not to get there. I support them. If you do care any about it instead of just ranting try and do your part too. And by that I mean really look into it and complain about what you must, but not only about the controllers, it just shows you have no idea of the extent of what's going on.

Please note that I haven't mentioned a single time how good or bad they may be at their work. I do not know, and I've always said this. I do not work there, I do not fly there. But I do care about safety and I can tell you it is jeopardized here.

Politicians are running the show. You should be scared, very scared. (that's not a menace, just think about it, a person that has no idea of the aviation sector and only an agenda in mind calling the shots?) If you were reading the news you'll see a pattern, they only do things reactively, they never plan things in advance. When was it the last time that you saw an SOP were stated "if you run out of fuel in mid-air, just land and refuel"? That's how good them politicians are doing down there. That'd be unthinkable in this day and age, you plan before hand, you do NOT run out on mid air without another (severe) reason than lack of planning.

But as somebody already mentioned, it's your bottocks up there in the sky, not the controllers. They're not fighting for their T&C's with the work to rule. They're working to rule because that's what little they have been left to do. They're between you pilots and a hard place (mis-management, all the way up to the ministry). Spanish pilots have already understood this. Therefore the common task force that was set up last week. That task force, BTW, includes controllers, showing they also care about improving. Maybe you guys should also start caring and trying to do something about improving the service. Airmanship, anybody?

PD: a little note, an Air Safety Report may be available to you. We have something similar were I work, but it is not called ASR (do you know what it is called? it is pedantic of me to ask but since I should know yours...). Also tell me one thing. Do ASR's in the UK, or wherever it is your company is registered, go directly to CAA or EASA? I know in Spain those very reports (whatever they're called there) were not making it as far as they should. Now controllers are aware of it and sending copies directly to the European Air Safety Agency (not to be confused with AESA, the Spanish one, which does Jack about them).

Chesty Morgan

19th Jul 2010, 11:51

And how does making me wait until the very end of my slot help any of that?

It doesn't. It's just petty.

I don't know where you work so I wont know what your equivalent of an ASR is. We can request that any ASRs go to the CAA. There are certain reports that will automatically go to the CAA anyway.

At any time a serious incident, or something much worse (god forbid) can happen. Watch out.

I always do and I always have. Particularly in Spain. Seriously.

OFSO

19th Jul 2010, 11:53

A substantial number of Spanish ATC staff didn't show up for work at Girona last night - some sent in sick notes, some just didn't turn up. Local papers report up to 2 hours delays on o/g flights.

We just don't care any more - what with volcanic dust, French ATC strikes, and security stupidity in Stanstead/Gatwick, my wife's swapped her monthly visits to the UK from aviation to the TGV. Twice the price - Perpignan-Paris return costs €80 first class on the train - but you get there, and on time. And a more comfortable ride that FR or EasyJet can offer.

Edit: just to be fair - sat waiting for my wife to go/arrive into GRN many times in past ten years - always found the ATC very competent.

andrijander

19th Jul 2010, 12:13

And how does making me wait until the very end of my slot help any of that?

It probably doesn't help much. I work at EUROCONTROL and, IMHO, direct routes are a bliss. The shorter time you spend in my airspace the better, the sooner I'm done and can move on to the next. However that's about to change, since we're reaching TFC levels that some sectors just can't cope with. And unfortunately keeping accurate track of those almost 5000 flights a day is impossible. We have some reasonable good tools for it but none is perfect. But that's also only in our case. It is also a bit selfish, since we are told we may be contributing in some cases to create congestions at the destination airports (one of the reasons you won't get direct to final from 300NM away during the day unless you fly to a very small airfield) We do not deal with airports directly and there's the pickle. Airports are the bottlenecks really. If an airport can only handle 80 movements an hour, that 100 aircraft arrive/wanna take off in an hour just causes delays and congestion. In theory CFMU should avoid that. Then life happens, but also I understand that is no excuse to just ditch the system altogether. As I tried to get across, controllers in Spain are way overworked, and are falling back to basics. Not justifying that, just stating it. But then again, sometimes when working close to the limit, I tend to do the same (and it works for me). Imagine you had to operate on your own, you'd probably need the full 10NM approach every time. Can't be preparing for landing, talking the R/T and flying the plane and be expected to do acrobatics at the same time (if you can do it, good for you, but not everybody can and it is not the way it should be done anyway).

Wishing you guys blue skies and safe landings,
A.

FRying

19th Jul 2010, 12:44

Andri, if what you're describing about the life at spanish ATC is true, I can understand those poor devils and there is much to worry about when flying in to/from Spain...

McNulty

19th Jul 2010, 13:02

I cant believe anyone is stupid enough to fall for stupid spanish atc union rhetoric. Simply giving them paycuts is not enough, the entire system needs to be over hauled and all the dead wood cleared out. Airlines who pay for their service, aswell as the travelling public deserve the levels of proficiency of the london controllers to be mandatory all accross europe, including spain. The only way to achieve this is to fire them and start from scratch, their current work to rule is making this an increasingly realistic outcome as the public become more aware of the problems they are causing.

Mister Geezer

19th Jul 2010, 13:27

Perhaps I have missed something, yet would it not be far better if the Spanish decided on strikes instead. The current course of action has little effect on AENA, since the aircraft are still moving in and out of their airports.

Granted, stikes will cause misery but a conclusion to the problem will probably be found sooner rather than later if such a course of action was chosen. It just seems as if the controllers are just 'pussy footing' around at the moment.

If the Spanish strike then it will cause far more disruption when compared to the French going on strike. If the French are on strike then we see use of Tango 9 and going round France to the east to get down to Spain which is a bugger but the flights still generally get to where they need to go to! If no controllers turn up for work in Spain, then nothing will move. It is a rather 'ugly' scenario, yet something needs to happen to get these controllers talking to their superiors and vice versa.

Finally for those who are filing reports on the smallest of issues concerning ATC in Spain, that is all fine and well yet how will your company follow these up? By all means, call me a pessimist yet I can not help but feel that such comments will fall on deaf ears... that is providing your company has contacts in AENA etc for following such issues up.

Microburst2002

19th Jul 2010, 13:50

hahahaha

macnulty, comeon
If that is union rhetoric, at least they write a few paragraphs. Your rhetoric, however, is so simple and so brief, and so typically childish, that it makes me laugh.
How you dare call rhetoric to what the ATCos are telling you? What the fuC do you know, my dear?
What they are telling you are facts.

Dont' you believe that teh ATCOs offered a new deal with the government regarding their salaries with a cut of around 50%? Well: that is a fact, it is not rhetoric

ANd the goverment, of course, did not accept. That is another fact.

WHY THE FUc*k DONT YOU COMPLAINT MORE ABOUT THE SPANISH GOVERNMENT? there would be amazing agreement in that!

because you are seized by media, thats why!

AND NOW, FOR THOSE WHO STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE, A SUMMARY:

1- The spanish government is doing all what is doing so that situation becomes unmanageable, (or apparently unmanageable).
2- The media makes sure that every body is well aware that the situation is a chaos, and unmanageable,
3- The government sells the damned golden eggs chicken to their close friends for a tenth of what it is worth.
4- magically all things will solve quicky then. All it takes is the government to stop the auto-sabotage.

The poor ATCOs are like the christians thrown to the lions, any you are the happy audience, dont' you realise?

They have done similar things in the past, here and in other countries.

In this case, it can cost some lives too, thats the difference. But wait!! that would do a perfect "unmanageable situation" calling for an inmediate solution. The ultimate solution... You will be happy because you will have some one to blame an hang, won`t you.