Spanish ATC

[teddyman]

Good Post Old F :D

I remember many years ago when a pilots wage was much higher then ATCO's.

And guys, don't be to alarmed about the Spanish ATCO's working hours. A third of that time is supposed to be in a bed! :cool:

If you are empolyed by the state and the state is in financial crisis expect to share the burden!

Gonna be interesting with military controllers.

Teddy

[Blue5]

You think so? Well, the insurance terms and conditions also points out, that insurance will not cover any damages caused by strike, industrial unrest, lockouts and civial commotions, SRCC ( strikes, riots, and civil commotions).
This is for example stated in the 'Allianz Luftfahrthafplichtversicherungsbedingungen' (Allianz Aircraft/Aviation Liability Insurance), Point 6.1.7 under the Point 6 Exclusions.

I just mention the Allianz LuHaftpflicht but there are also others with the same wording in this case.

Maybe an increased fee may apply.

However I think that most companies will neglect it, because nobody reads the small terms.... := or just not make too much noise about it. And it's written there black on white. You can even read different terms and conditions online....just google 'Peter H Braasch and you can download the terms of different insurance companies.

[121decimal375]

Im suprised that Spanish Mil have enough controllers...I'm not sure in the the UK would be able to do the same :confused:

[Old_Fokker]

paidworker:

"the fact is that the King of Spain ( who is supposed not to be involved in state matters like this ) signed a decree saying that it is illegal for atc to go on strike."

Wrong on 2 accounts

Firstly, the King of Spain has to sign ALL royal decrees as the word "royal" implies (Real Decreto). A decree is made up by the government, approved and then send on to the King for official approval which merely consists in him signing it.

Secondly, the urgent decree does not say it is illegal for atc to go on strike. Not even close!

The decree had to be made up and signed by the King to be able to allow the Spanish Military take control over Spanish Airspace. I don't know if you are aware but the days that the Spanish Military could do as it pleased in Spain are long gone. They need decrees now before they can step in.

"So long as state sponsored television and newspapers continue to print the " party line " I do accept it is very hard for people to see what is really happening."

I don't know what television you are watching nor what papers you read, but even the right leaning Spanish media are reporting this as it is: that it is not a strike but ATC personnel abandoning their jobs.

"True Old Fokker, but as you say that was then and this is now."

Did you bother to check the source I gave? That was January of this year.

"As Jtoledo says though those figures no longer are the real issue , as for Zapaterro and his bunch of a** clowns..."

Your true colours are showing now, but continue...

"...they are earning a lot more than their predecessors were ten years ago. People keep pointing at the "money" but its not the issue. Looking into the eyes of a spanish controller coming off shift is almost frightening , red eyed , bleary , not all there because they are fatigued and fed up."

Poppycock!

Spanish government's new conditions establish a max working hours per year of 1,670. Before, when working conditions were very favourable for Spanish ATC, they very often did a total of 1,700 working hours per year, 500 more than the 1,200 base and earning considerably more because those 500 were considered extra hours. Hence the huge salaries and the huge costs. And all that while their productivity is below European average.

[paidworker]

As i understand it the law states that they must provide a minimum service , a level which is so high given the actual staffing levels that its net effect is they can not strike. I am based in Ocana and from the guys studying to be controllers there this is my understanding , when in tommorrow I will find the references. If it was as simple as go on strike without pay and the average controller is earning so much money , then what would a month be to them? As the article points out , they are a smart bunch of people. I believe they quoted the average salary as 200,000 euros, an ok salary given the workload, but its not what the people in training for the last years here were training for and not what people I met were earning ,, they question the salary figures being published in a big way. That being said If it was my wage I would defend it ( might have been better for Zapateroo to fly business class to Zurich yesterday as opposed to take the government jet or kill projects such as building roundabouts in small villages to increase tourism ( s** you not ). God help you when your terms and conditions are eroded such that your workforce end up paying to work..oh wait..

As for my true colors , I am not fond of Zapaterro for many reasons but mostly because anybody down here with an ounce of sense knows all this is really about is breaking the union before selling AENA off too private "interests". Some are ok with that , personally I am not. Its hidden behind the easy to stir noisy mob. Sometimes the handling of this from Blanco seems so heavy handed you might suspect he was trying to provoke things.

My company is directly effected by the problems , we dont have a route network to absorb the financial impact of a go slow etc. We have gone to meet with the controllers several times , I would say monthly, in an effort to gain concessions with them we have negotiated directly with them , some of them look pretty beaten up if you ask me.

[andrijander]

Teddy,

the 33% rest rule applies only to night shifts. Dunno in Spain but out of 200+ shifts I do a year, I do around 15 night shifts. As an example this year I did 18, my basic 15, 1extra for service reasons and 2 swaps to help a colleague (he worked my day shifts; next time it'll be the other way round). That does make sense when you know that I may work a night shift any day, even if 24h after finished I may be getting up to work again. So day 1 work night, day 2 sleep during day, day 3 be at work at 0630 sharp local time. It's not a matter of wanting, it's a matter of being human, you can only pull it for that long.

Which brings me back to Old Fokker. Maybe there were no complains back then because, as a worker, you could choose if you wanted to work overtime (if you could pull it). No one is young forever or is willing to be away from friends and family for that long. So no one complained because, based on your data*, 10% of the workforce were abusing the overtime system, and 20% more were doing overtime (how much is up to debate).

NOW EVERYONE IS WORKING TWICE AS MUCH AND THEY'RE FORCED TO DO IT. Excuse the "shouting" but your argument is twisted and I see it repeated everywhere. Some people even had been granted a reduced working time (=less money too, you know?) to take care of their kids or sick relatives. Well no more, all in the interest of the traveling masses.

Also, on another note, let's not forget that the timing of this has more to do with the letter controllers got today and the news about privatization than with the holiday weekend. Or you're to say that people traveling this weekend are more important than people traveling any other, not universally calendar marked, date? If any of you feel like answering that one I leave some more food for thought: were do you draw the line between workers rights and other rights? (freedom of movement in this case, but who knows what next?)

Good night and safe journeys,
A.


PD: data* there is a debate, for those who know that icebergs are bigger under the surface, that the data given out by the government is not "accurate". Unfortunately it is one of those things which is almost impossible to check, and even if you would, nobody would believe you. But rumour has it that those figures were not what controllers earned, but how much those controllers cost to the company (so not the home take pay, but added tax, training costs, admin costs and even the electricity and heating bill of the facilities were they work amongst others). Fact? I do not know, but given that the government had an agenda, I'd be very careful about what they say.

[DjerbaDevil]

Latest News:

The Vice-Prime Minister has just announced that the overall supervision of air traffic control in Spain has been taken over by the Military. The controllers in some cases have reported for work in recent shifts but in some cases do not appear to want to work.

The next step the Spanish Government will take will be an emergency meeting of ministers at 9.00 am tomorrow Saturday and if at that time the air traffic controllers have not brought the air traffic in Spain to normality, the Ministers will announce the State of Alarm in Spain and the air traffic controllers will be required to report for duty under that emergency requirement. If any air traffic controller refuses to report for duty under the State of Alarm, the controller will be liable to criminal prosecution with the risk of getting a possible lengthy prison sentence.

[threemiles]

Surprising how little people know.
Even when a military controller would speak good English it would need a license to work a specific sector or tower.
Legally! you can't just walk in, take the mic and do the job!
The license requires training and supervision and time.

[andrijander]

Actually now all the civil ATCO's are Military. Zapatero is a magician, didn't you know?

Jokes aside, they just been royal decreed over form the ministry of development to the ministry of defense...and...et voila! Magic! Now they really have no rights, and military law is their law. And as we all sort of know: in the military you just do as your boss says; or else.

Forget just culture, forget doing what you think is best. From a couple of hours ago there are Mil Commanders and Military-ish Police (guardia civil) in every control centre (and tower? I guess at least in the big ones) and you better do as you're told.

This is gonna end in tears.

[janrein]

Could anyone with a view to the situation comment on similarities - or not - with the USA ATC situation in 1981, Ronald Reagan's measures taken and the then immediate and final outcome for all involved?

Ballanced views appreciated, thanks for sharing

[DjerbaDevil]

And many don't want to understand....

Let's try again.

The Spanish Governemnet have sent in the Military to SUPERVISE or GUARD, if you like, the air traffic control installations and staff. The Military Controllers will not be directly active. This will give the Government direct control/supervision of the civilian air traffic controllers.

The Ministerial Council tomorrow will further increase the supervision/control by declaring a State of Alarm, which will give the Government far reaching powers to require the civilian air traffic controllers to report to work, which if they refuse will be prosecuted under the exceptional powers of the State of Alaram.


The Madrid Public Prosecutor is collecting evidence of the wild cat strike and if this evidence supports his cause, he will charge the Air Traffic Controllers, who abandoned their posts and those that did not report for duty or refused to work, with Sedition or if you wish Subversive Acts. The group of about 100 controllers meeting at the Hotel Auditorium close to Madrid Airport, since about 1700hrs this afternoon when they abandoned their posts and closed all air traffic in Spain, have been required to identify themsleves by the Guardia Civil.

[411A]

This is gonna end in tears.
Of the permanently unemployed...as it should.
Jail next?

[Old_Fokker]

Andrijander:

"Excuse the "shouting" but your argument is twisted and I see it repeated everywhere."

That is because you guys have a PR problem. Today's episode wont improve your ratings, I am afraid.

As I stated in an earlier post, USCA (Spanish ATC union) did not do such a bad job earlier this year when trying to get their viewpoints across to the general public which had grown accustomed to your periodical, strategically planned real strikes. Given the economic times we are in, it is a difficult job to explain to a country with a 20% unemployment rate and a minimal wage established at some € 8,800/year, that the roughly 2,500 ATC personnel making an average of € 350,000/year are unfairly treated.

Today was simply 'one bridge too far'. There was no strike today, just a kneejerk reaction of abandoning their jobs which very likely will have grave consequences, not only for their cause, but also for their future.

"Some people even had been granted a reduced working time (=less money too, you know?) to take care of their kids or sick relatives."

Are you aware of the fact that many medical operations, some very urgent, have had to be cancelled all over Spain, and possible beyond, because of Spanish ATC's walk-out today?

"Or you're to say that people traveling this weekend are more important than people traveling any other, not universally calendar marked, date?"

More important, no. More number of people, yes.

"were do you draw the line between workers rights and other rights? (freedom of movement in this case, but who knows what next?)"

You have a right to go on strike. You do NOT have a right to abandon your work unannounced over made-up medical reasons. Because THAT is what happened today. There was no strike announcement, ATC simply left their jobs. And a collective of 'just' 2,500 certainly does not have the right to collectively abandon their work, thereby causing MASSIVE chaos all over Spain and virtually paralize it, at a time when other parts of Europe are coping with considerable weather issues. If you cannot see that then I am afraid that the quality of Spanish ATC is far worse than discussed elsewhere on this board, presuming you are a Spanish ATC, that is.

"But rumour has it that those figures were not what controllers earned, but how much those controllers cost to the company (so not the home take pay, but added tax, training costs, admin costs and even the electricity and heating bill of the facilities were they work amongst others). Fact? I do not know, but given that the government had an agenda, I'd be very careful about what they say. "

Perhaps you can enlighten us and give us the real data, preferably with a link to a credible source.

Indigopete

"But if 99% of a workforce are able to co-ordinate themselves to effectively bring their operation to a halt en masse, then maybe they have a point to make and maybe we should listen to them. They clearly haven't been up until now."

I am sorry but I don't buy it. If the new working conditions for ATC are such a risk for passenger safety as they claim, there would have been much more subtle and effective ways for them to get their message across to the general public and thus, put pressure on their negotiation partners. It is also not the first time that they deny to do their jobs over bogus medical reason, though not at such a massive scale as today, causing considerable delays. Earlier this year they did it while their union was in negotiations with AENA.

[McBruce]

Yous guys must remember that over the past year, you have pissed off so many pilots with your strict adherence attitude, had this not been the case, I suspect you wouldn't be getting a hostile reception here. Good luck...

[crazyaviator]

Let me see here,,,,, halve the wage, hire twice the number of atc controllers PRESTO,, still good wages with Half the workload ,,,sounds too easy to be true !!!

[LH2]

Samo,

Complain to Spanish goverment, not to Spanish ATCOs.

I'm not sure if you've ever had any contact with members of the Spanish air traffic services, but taken as a whole they are by far the most incompetent, unmotivated, and arrogant group of people I have had the displeasure of dealing with. They are in fact, worse than their own politicians... and that's quite something. :hmm:

I'm sure you mean well, but your sympathy is misplaced here.

[LH2]

source/link?

Here (http://www.la-moncloa.es/NR/rdonlyres/31364AC1-967D-4761-B352-9171790ABD1B/130623/BOEA201018651.pdf) (PDF). Use Google Translate if required.

[LH2]

Bolli two months ago the spanish military commanders were on television saying they were not qualified to do the job.. that apart from their level of english.

I cannot comment on the Spanish Air Force, but in my dealings with their Navy I have found them to be very professional. At least the officers there spoke English to a high standard (unlike AENA controllers :E).

Friend of mine from the German Navy holds them in high regard as well. Reckons it was the whole NATO thing that brought them out of the dark ages.

As for the Air Force, whatever their aeronautical or linguistic competences, at least I expect they will have a grasp of two concepts: discipline and responsibility. That should be a massive improvement.

[LH2]

Jail next?

Jail? You're mellowing out, me old chap. :E

[ATC Watcher]

Reall mess. quick notes /anwers:
Regading military taking over ( anywhere ) this is 2010 in the EU where licensing is in force, Military controllers are not licenced/trained for En-route civil ops. For TWRs at airports this is different ( mixed ops ) . Also umbers are not at all the same , a few hunded licensed military controllers in Spain 1800 civil.

Comparison with Reagan/USA/1981 .(I was involved ) in 81 huge overstaff in FAA, low working hours , so firing 60% workforce was mitigated by : calling back retired people, management and a few ( hundreds ) of military in some TWRS. Then they enforced 6 days/ week of 12 hours/day to that workfordce, and still it was a mess for 12-14 months ( big delays in the New york area,many incidents ) . Resolved after 4-5 years only.
Totally different in Spain today.
.

[eagleflyer]

This is an accident waiting to happen! Having the entire workforce in an upset state of mind is not good in our business. "Work or you will be arrested!"...I mean, is this Bananistan???

I can understand the reasons of the Spanish colleagues, but I can´t approve of the manner they chose to go on strike.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Having sat in a control tower with a gun in my ear I hope the Spanish military is a bit more civilised.

[pilot999]

All the military need to do and say is flight plan level , route as per your flight plan , basically exactly the same as the spanish atc were doing already.

[Quintilian]

Making the military take over sectors of which they have no appropriate training or basic idea how to handle is dangerous.

When an already trained ATCO starts working at new unit the unit-/sector-specific training is anything between 6 and 16 months depending on the complexity and traffic load of the sector ...

Oh well, glad I'm not flying to spain during the next few years.

[TBSC]

Closures now extended until 1800 UTC.

[Cows getting bigger]

Having sat in a control tower with a gun in someone's ear.............:eek:

[Phalconphixer]

el periodico reports that the meeting held by the union at the hotel in Madrid was monitored by the National Police and Guardia Civil with a view to identifying those attending for possible criminal charges of sedition which here in Spain can carry a prison sentence of between 8 and 15 years...

[sangiovese.]

The military can't surely be worse than the current lot can they???

:D

[Rod Eddington]

Absolutely pathetic! Hopefully they'll all get sacked and made to personally compensate the airlines for their losses.

[expediteoff]

Good luck amigos!

Maybe others in our industry should have the backbone to stand up and fight against the constant deterioation in T and C's rather than "spouting off" about their lot on PPRune.

You're in the front line at the moment - if you lose this dispute, then be under no illusions- whether on the ground or at the pointy end, one by one we'll be next.

Saludos!

[His dudeness]

Please forget everything you might have heard about sallaries. Sallaries were the first thing to go many months ago, and it is not what we are fighting for.

If you must know as an experienced approach controller at LECB I made 4300 EUR last month. Our last colleagues to join are making 2300 eur.

I love this job and if it was only an issue of money I'd consider myself happy. But it's not. We've gone from 1200 to upwards of 2000 hours. Management has decided unilaterally to increase traffic loads with absolutely no safety studies. We are enduring monthly rosters of 200 hours. When some of us folded to pressure (18 people had already been medically evacuated when I last asked in august) the goverment forced the medical inspection to turn down sick leaves. Colleagues of my have been working while still on anxiety medication, or decided to drop the treatment ot of fear of government retaliation.

Just culture has been completely obliterated, and recordings have been used arbitrarily to attack employees. We have been robbed of our holidays, and sick leaves have gone unpaid. They are losing trial after trial because the company is denying basic rights (leaves to attend small children). Even after having lost these trials the continue the practice (hopefully we will end up having an obvious case of mobbing)

With today's decree it is the fourth time this year that legislation has been passed specifically to change our terms and conditions, collective negotiation be damned.

And to top it all off to this day we are to be available 24/365 to work in the company deems it necessary.

So yes. I _DO_ claim slavery when all the basic rights that had been painfully gained through the 20th centry haven been swiftly dragged from under our feet, all in the name of economic interest and a complete disregard of operational safety.

So please don't bring back the issue of money. Money has not been an issue for a long time now. It's all about basic rights, our dignity and the safety of operations. I don't think I would have to stress that the people that are RIGHT NOW sending untrained military personnel to take control of the operation are not thinking too much about safety.

With all my regards,
Juan Toledo


Guys, I think if Juan is right with only half of what he wrote, than the situation is way worse than most thought. You have to make these things public, beyond Spain, and your fellow ATC men/organizations and the pilots assosiations have to pick up this and push for a solution that is both safe and tolerable to both sides. Spanish Gobernment surely knows how much the country depends on tourism and how tourism depends on air travel...one should think... :ooh:

The airlines/IATA need to address that scary stuff as well, it can´t be that they pay for a service conducted by understaffed, fatiqued, medicated and bullyed personel.

[Helen49]

Let's hope that plenty of striking BA cabin crew, RMT members, French Air Traffic Controllers and other groups who persist in holding us to ransom are seriously inconvenienced by these actions. Sympathy to everybody else!
H49

[man friday]

Having wound ou the range on the radar, only 3 outbounds from Malaga heading South seen, nothing else moving in the 140 miles we can see North of Gib.

Seville centre reckon the issue will be resolved in Half an Hour.

The Guardia Civil are probably dusting off their big battons as i type :ouch:

[captplaystation]

Instead of blaming the controllers , try blaming the financially and morally bankrupt bunch of slime-bags who, in theory run the country.
It is their need to do as the cat does in the kitty litter, covering up, and having someone else pay for their ineptitude, that has led to this situation.
If we go back far enough I am sure an ATC job in Spain was VERY cushy indeed. How often as a pilot do you hear the same unfounded accusation against you (yeah sure , we all report at 1000 L operate one sector, spend two days shagging hosties by the pool at some beachside resort, to then return to our 5 days off) so what validity can one gve to the government (mis)information of their current Ts&C's ? ?
I believe they have finally been pushed too far, no-one was willing to listen, and now they have shown some cojones and this has happened.

I wish them the very best, but I fear the legacy of Franco will be used to quell this "no one expects the Spanish inquisition! ! :eek: "

[LayLoLay]

What about the AENA management in all this? They are avoiding the flak very professionally it seems.

Why are they not held responsible for letting matters get out of hand? Why are they not in the news for their irresponsible management? They were the ones who accepted these unbelievably good conditions that some of you claim the spanish controllers had. If the controllers were/are earning these huge salaries what salaries were/are the management earning? How much bonus did they make for every year where they fooled the public that all was in order, while saving money by not training new controllers, instead digging a hole under the existing ones by offering them huge compensations for overtime? Their incompetence had to bring the ministries to take care of the action and they just sit on the sideline watch the storm pass by? Are they not responsible for their slack cost control and unnecessary airport improvements cost of which is hundred fold of that of the controllers' salary?

So suddenly the workers are the only responsible ones for the failings of a company and management are the poor victims. Meanwhile the only profit making MAIN airports of the country are being put on private sector by a SOCIALIST government! All this does not smell fishy but the controllers are a bunch of spoilt brat. Fools.

[BeT]

As a controller from a N. European area centre I have mixed views on the whole affair.

There clearly was some piss-taking in regards to salary and overtime by numerous individuals over the previous years, however this seems to have been sanctioned at the time by AENA in order to 'get the job done' and therefore should not be used as a bargaining chip by either side in the current conflict.

I can not support the unilateral 'go on a sickie' that has taken place, but on the other hand I can clearly see that the controllers are being pushed in to a tight spot (purposefully, one would imagine) and I have to admire that they have had the collective balls to do something about it.

Things clearly need to change in respect to working hrs, salary and benefits - and im sorry to Spanish ATCOs but I think you probably had it too good, for too long and now theres going to be an adjustment - however the actions of the current government have stepped well beyond an acceptable 'line'.

The thing that sickens me the most is the threat of arrest and jail-time for failure to work - it leaves me saddened and frankly amazed. My sympathies to my Spanish colleagues. Before that statement is jumped on by 100 salivating pilots or armchair controllers take a minute to appreciate the gravity of what the government is proposing to do; you would potentially get less jail time for murdering someone!

Im quite confident that if the local government tried to pull such a stunt here, most controllers would be packing their suitcases never to be seen again.

I wish success to my Spanish colleagues in reaching a speedy and acceptable resolution to the whole mess and hope that the madness being proposed by your government subsides - I think that in order to move forward you do need to return to work, at least in the short term.

[bobwi]

I blaim the government too. And I appreciate the hard time the controlers are going through. But for me that is no excuse for doing what they are doing now.

[crippen]

The controllers, who are the best paid in Europe with annual salaries of up to one million euros....
:=

Spain to declare State of Alert over air traffic control strikes - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/8180759/Spain-to-declare-State-of-Alert-over-air-traffic-control-strikes.html)

[bobwi]

Spanish airspace remains closed. Sofar for the military intervention...

[26left]

Interesting, have just looked at radarvirtuel.com and there are no aircraft :hmm:returns shown at all in Spanish airspace, but heavy trafffic going NW/SW in an off-shore corridor to the east of Spain. Or is it that RV.com are not getting any feeds from AENA?

[26left]

The closure appears to be confirmed by the total lack of radar returns in Spanish airspace on radar virtuel.com at this moment.

[dirtymagic]

The military isn´t controlling the traffic, in the new decree law passed yesterday the miliatry will obligate the controllers to work and if not off to jail! The ministers are meeting and if they declare a state of emergency the atc´s will have to by law work for up to 15 days under military "supervision".
Looks like Spain just became a step closer to becoming Venezuela.

[threemiles]

Military takeover had happened before and killed 69 travellers on an Iberia DC-9 over Spain.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/7-1975%20EC-BII%20and%20EC-BJC.pdf

The controllers have brought themselves, the government, 300.000 people who had organized their travel, booked hotels and spent money for their vacations, numberless flight crews stranded, into an indissoluble situation. Nothing will be as it was before.

[dirtymagic]

The basis of all this is that the atc´s of Spain had to work 1670n hours plus 80 extras. Good no probs. But bad managemnet and no foresight by AENA or the government resulted in the atc´s finishing their hours(by law) for the year at the start of december. So the government makes a new increasing these hours by not including, sick leave, leave for a family death, training, holidays to name a few.

The next law they will pass is to obligate the controllers to work for 1 year without possibilty of resigning! this = slavery in my books......watch this space as it will be imminent!

[samotnik]

Martial law in Poland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Poland)

We're gonna see how will the spanish situation evolve.

[Brian 48nav]

PILOTS - be careful what you wish for!!
There was a midair collision over western France c1973 when the military were called in when civil ATC were on strike!
Having been a Hercules nav and civil controller, both London Area and LHR ,it has never ceased to amaze me how little my pilot chums knew or understood about ATC.I also worked at Boscombe Down and the arrogance of many of the single-seat brigade had to be heard to be believed, and I say this as a father of a current airline pilot who is also ex-single seat and test pilot.( He is a bloody good bloke of whom I am immensely proud - my hero in fact -but my ATCO son and I keep him in touch with reality!).
To say sack them all is stupid! If BA sacked all its pilots, within weeks it could replace them with already trained correctly type-rated people.If NATS sacked all its ATCOs it would take years to replace them; who would train them? Each ATCO is only licensed to work at the unit at which he is based - there is not an equivalent to, say a B747-400 type rating.

[Hotel Tango]

Rod Eddington, I think it is you who is pathetic. You obviously have no comprehension whatsoever of what is at stake here. If AENA and the Spanish government were to succeed with their draconian and undemocratic methods, other countries could follow suit - not just in aviation but in all industries - and we would soon all be in the same boat, sorry make that slaveboat. Ultimately, the Spanish controllers are arguably fighting our war too.

[Jorge Newberry]

The government has just issued a decree establishing "a state of alarm". If the controllers refuse to work they now risk being jailed under military law

[groundbum]

even if miltary controllers could take over the microphone I would expect all the neighbouring countries controllers, especially highly unionised France and Italy and so forth, to refuse to work with strike breakers. I would almost expect these other controllers to walk off the job if they were somehow placed in a situation where they had to talk/work with military controllers..

G

[Masai]

I have the highest resepect for military controllers but that does not mean that you can just drop them into someone else's job. The 1973 collision near Nantes comes to mind.
BBC ON THIS DAY | 5 | 1973: Mid-air collision kills 68 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/5/newsid_4202000/4202039.stm)

[Isaid180]

the whole situation is surreal!!
if they don't go to work and WORK they will be facing criminal prosectution! what a relaxed enviornment to work in! what next? if they go on a break or decide to split the sector as it gets busy, they will also be prosecuted! As much as I think the way in which they have decided to "strike" is not acceptable, the Government reaction is just out of order and will have severe consequences for months to come!
You cannot just replace controllers from one day to another! it takes months in the best case for experienced controllers from other sectors and a year or two for trainees!

[Ex Cargo Clown]

This appears to be the unusual situation where both parties are in the wrong.

Firstly, the ATC have clearly been overpaid for years, and now that needs to be rectified, I don't understand why they won't take less money if they want fewer hours.

Secondly, I cannot believe the government are taking the action they are now. It doesn't really matter though, the EU would step in if there were any threats of court action. I don't really know, or care about what Spanish Law says, their country is so much in debt it is reliant on the EU, so if a threat to take this whole matter went to the ECHR then Spain would give in.

Good luck!

[zerotohero]

Can we not just have a big CTAF :ok:

As I remember during my training and instructing days in the states when the tower closes the field goes uncontrolled

That seems to be the case, keep filed routes, squak VFR and turn up the TCAS nice and bright :E

A340-500 Left base 33L for touch and go! lol :8

[andrijander]

Old Fokker,

let me start by saying that I am spanish and and ATCO but do NOT work in Spain, rather somewhere else in europe and have been for over 10 years.


* PR problem. Today's episode wont improve your ratings, I am afraid.

Well, it ain't my PR problem, but it definitely won't improve their ratings. I believe things should have been done differently but then again even I do not hold all the info. Perhaps they should have all resigned in masse, holding that as a bargaining chip instead of actually just putting the tools down. But I've heard government had that one covered by yet another decree that would not allow them to resign. We'd be back here. In any case I do know that every step of the way the government has been there with all their might barring every option. Wikileaks just proved that justice in Spain can go left or right depending on who's in charge. In this matter it's puzzling to see how a judge was surprisingly quick to rule that the decrease in salary of controllers was legal, but then a month later judges ruled that decreasing the salaries of judges wasn't legal (same situation, different government employees).

* 20% unemployment rate and a minimal wage established at some € 8,800/year, that the roughly 2,500 ATC personnel making an average of € 350,000/year are unfairly treated.

Another thing to know from Spain: 20% unemployment means there is a huge amount of people not declaring their income. Sure, there's a lot of people not having income and suffering lots, but not 20% by far. I grew up there.


*Are you aware of the fact that many medical operations, some very urgent, have had to be cancelled all over Spain, and possible beyond, because of Spanish ATC's walk-out today?

My understanding is that there is a rate 0, but medical flights and flights en-route were accepted.


* You have a right to go on strike. You do NOT have a right to abandon your work unannounced over made-up medical reasons.

Yeah I do have a right, ratified by a judge when a couple of years back we almost did strike. But in Spain they don't. When they call a strike, the government will provide minimum services of 110% (this happened when the general strike some weeks back..funny thing was controllers weren't even backing that one)

About the salaries, as I said, it's almost impossible to check. Only way forward is for the controllers to come up with their payslips. Even though it doesn't matter anymore, that's just not the case now and they're not fighting for that. So a bit off-topic nowadays.

A.

edited for spelling

[Microburst2002]

The cause of this unprecedented situation is the "solution" that the spanish government gave to the problem of the Spanish ATC.

If you make a royal decree, jumping above all laws and previous agreements between AENA and the ATCOs, you are forcing things. Imposition rather than negotiation and agreement can bring bad consecuences.

So if I dropped a bomb on my neighbours house (he is a pain in the neck, believe me...) Would anyone be surprised if he droped another one on mine?

No.

The spanish government dropped an atomic bomb on the ATCOs, and now it is the ATCOs turn. And we pay for it.

The aftermath of all this crazy situation (state of alarm!) will be the privatisation of AENA for one hundredth of its real value (it is one of the best bussinesses you can find).

I deem the buyers are friends of someone in the government.

Otherwise the government is plainly stupid by having let things go this far.


Let's see if they start arresting ATCOs or what

[transilvana]

Well, I´ll explain latter today why ATCO is on full strike and is long to describe, but think this:

- those 300.000€ is a lie, when Madrid Barajas new runways were openned they needed the extra hours from the ATCO´s and they did it going beyond the point, that was on 2008, an ATCO wins 120.000€ because I have seen it (lot´s of friends ATCO´s). Last month a collegue earned 928€, that´s it!!!

- Goverment new that this was going to happen at least 2 weeks ago, at least 10 months ago!!!

- Military? **** you, they all can resign today and Spain would be w/o ATCO´s for ages, they can do it.

more this afternoon

[Microburst2002]

Ok, we have the martial law, as it were

State of Alarm

Dreadful isn't it?

So what, now? I'm waiting to see the first ATCO to be arrested and carried to a jail by soldiers.

That is going to be fun.

Maybe the spanish governmet would be willing to swap a few ATCOs with Gitmo's taliban...

[Colonel Klink]

Maybe while we are getting the Army to force them back to work, we could politely ask them to stop the rife favoritism that puts the needs of Iberia and Spanair before any other European or foreign aircraft in their airspace. It is a such a disgrace!

[andrijander]

Erm, that'd be fun, ask the guys whose professional goal is to defend a nation to not be nationalistic. Yeah, that's why the govmnt did put them there...what strike?

[VinRouge]

Frankly, with the controller pay the government give them, they could sack every single controller and get other europeans in overnight on HALF what they earned.

Spanish controllers = selfish and greedy at a time of national financial crisis.

If the government bend over for :mad: earniong up to 1 million euros for doing an easy job, how are they going to force unpleasant cuts across the less well paid?

The eurozone could melt down if spain doesnt grip its deficit. Its that serious. They have a bailout coming their way and I bet the IMF terms wont include paying out other nations money to maintain extortionate civil sector salaries.

[prascho]

As I like saying..........He is just a German.
Fight for your rights guys:ok: Spanish r not responsible that your german wages sucks:oh:

[VinRouge]

Spain cant afford your salaries. That is the reality you greedy little spanish person.

[ATC Watcher]

LayLoLay :What about the AENA management in all this? They are avoiding the flak very professionally it seems.

Why are they not held responsible for letting matters get out of hand? Why are they not in the news for their irresponsible management? They were the ones who accepted these unbelievably good conditions that some of you claim the spanish controllers had. If the controllers were/are earning these huge salaries what salaries were/are the management earning? How much bonus did they make for every year where they fooled the public that all was in order, while saving money by not training new controllers, instead digging a hole under the existing ones by offering them huge compensations for overtime? Their incompetence had to bring the ministries to take care of the action and they just sit on the sideline watch the storm pass by? Are they not responsible for their slack cost control and unnecessary airport improvements cost of which is hundred fold of that of the controllers' salary?
.
One of the best post in days. very good questions indeed.

[ATC Watcher]

Don't beleive what is the media. IFATCA will have a good info sheet in a couple of hours. The controllers are forced back to work under military supervision so flights will resume, but the problems will remain and soon get worse.
This will most probably end up in a tragedy. Everyone will lose in the end.
So don't laugh too hard.
ATCW

PS : Having the military run ATC with Civilians controllers under their rules brings us back to Franco tiimes . 30 years back in fact.

[Mister Geezer]

Any ideas how long this is likely to continue on for or is it a case of 'how long is a piece of string'?

[JohnnyEagle]

VinRouge, educate yourself.. this conflict is not primary about money, its about alot more...

suggest you start here:
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416439-atc-situation-spain.html#post5718077

[st7860]

"Spain cant afford your salaries. That is the reality you greedy little spanish person. "

Urban Dictionary: union (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=union&page=2)
an association that uses thuggery, hooliganism, bribery and blackmail to get the wage level raised above its true value for lazy workers

[alwaysmovin]

VinRogue....You should read up on this crisis a little before you post...it's not just about money.....and you are obviously very stupid if you believe sacking the controllers is a viable option.. Who's going to replace them ?? Most European Ansps are short staffed......for this easy job???... and no controller in their right mind would go work in Spain if they know what is going on.Get an education....your ignorance is astounding :ugh:

[st7860]

350,000 ? LOL

"Spanish air traffic controllers get triple time pay for overtime hours, for instance, and made much of their salary from this, earning an average yearly salary of €350 000."


Spain air controllers returning to work: News24: World: News (http://www.news24.com/World/News/Spain-air-controllers-returning-to-work-20101204)
Madrid - Spain placed striking air traffic controllers under military authority on Saturday in an unprecedented emergency order and threatened jail terms for those who refuse to go back to work in a bid to get the country's air space back to normal.

Civil aviation agency Aena said hours later that some strikers were back on the job. The wildcat stoppage that began on Friday has largely closed the country's air space and stranded hundreds of thousands of travellers on a busy holiday weekend.

Aena's Twitter feed said Madrid's Barajas airport could be operating at 30% capacity by 16:00 (15:00 GMT).

In announcing the approval of a "state of alarm" after an emergency Cabinet meeting, Deputy Prime Minister Alfredo Perez Rubalcaba accused air traffic controllers of "blackmailing all of our citizens".

He apologised to irate travellers who spent Friday night sleeping at airports on what was supposed to be the start of a long holiday weekend.

Busiest travel weekend

The order placing the air traffic controllers under military authority went into effect about an hour after he spoke. A few hours later, Aena said 11 of 15 controllers stationed at Barcelona's airport have returned to work and an unspecified number are also back on duty at the air control centre that oversees Madrid's Barajas. The official also said one flight has left the Canary Islands for Luxembourg.

But it was far from clear when Spain's airports would be fully back to normal.

The case is reminiscent of a wildcat air traffic controllers strike in 1981 in the US, although the Spanish government has stopped short of simply firing controllers and breaking their union as President Ronald Reagan did at the time.

This is usually one of the busiest travel weekends of the year in Spain because Monday and Wednesday of next week are holidays, and many people plan to take Tuesday off as well.

The air traffic controllers launched their wildcat strike in the culmination of a long-running dispute with the government over working conditions, work schedules and benefits.

Spanish air traffic controllers get triple time pay for overtime hours, for instance, and made much of their salary from this, earning an average yearly salary of €350 000.

Slashing salaries

But in February the government slashed their allowed overtime hours drastically, infuriating the controllers who saw their pay nearly cut in half, although that is still roughly three times what Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero makes. The average yearly salary in Spain is about €20 000.

The final straw seems to have been a decree approved by the Cabinet on Friday under which controllers who miss work shifts because of illness must make up lost hours and can be subject to medical checkups immediately if they call in sick.

Perez Rubalcaba said that in Spain as in other countries, air traffic controllers are a highly paid specialized group because of their unique skills, but in this case Spanish controllers are using their status to defend what he called "intolerable privileges".

The government reacted to the strike by placing Spain's air traffic control centres and towers under military control.

TV footage on Spanish television showed seas of stranded travellers wandering around Spanish airports on Saturday. The flagship carrier Iberia cancelled all its flights in Spain until early on Sunday morning. Air France and Irish airline Ryanair also cancelled all flights to and from Spain.

"It is very bad. Tourists from all over the world are affected," Yair Orgler, 71, of Tel Aviv, told APTN at Madrid's Barajas airport. "The situation is really serious. I hope it will be solved soon because we don't know what to do."

Flights delayed or cancelled

Thousands of Swedish, Norwegian and Danish air passengers were forced to put their holidays on hold and wait around in airport lounges and hotels as southern-bound airlines awaited the traffic chaos in Spain to ease.

Jan Lindqvist, a spokesperson for Swedish airport operator Swedavia, said numerous flights had been delayed or cancelled and two flights had been forced to return to Goteborg's Landvetter airport.

In Amsterdam, Schiphol Airport spokesperson Antoinette Spaans warned travellers that winter weather and strikes in Spain were causing delays and cancellations.

Speaking after the emergency Cabinet meeting, Perez Rubalcaba said of the "state of alarm" would last 15 days, but could be extended if parliament approves it.

The "state of alarm" clause included in Spain's 1978 constitution, passed three years after the death of long-time dictator General Francisco Franco, had never previously been invoked. It was designed to help governments deal with catastrophes such as earthquakes or floods or, as in this case, the collapse of an essential public service like access to air traves.

[ATC Watcher]

Any ideas how long this is likely to continue on for ?

If you talk about the military rule, the decree says it is for 15 days, but reneable by the Governement .

if you talk about the dispute, many years to come.

[Old_Fokker]

LayLoLay:

"What about the AENA management in all this? They are avoiding the flak very professionally it seems."

Which cannot be said about Spanish ATC with their surprise walkout.

Andrijander:

"But I've heard government had that one covered by yet another decree that would not allow them to resign."

That's speculation, in my book.

"Wikileaks just proved that justice in Spain can go left or right depending on who's in charge."

If there's anything Wikileaks has learned us, then it surely is how a relative small number of people can have the whole world 'by their balls'.

"In this matter it's puzzling to see how a judge was surprisingly quick to rule that the decrease in salary of controllers was legal, but then a month later judges ruled that decreasing the salaries of judges wasn't legal (same situation, different government employees)."

Apples and oranges.

"Another thing to know from Spain: 20% unemployment means there is a huge amount of people not declaring their income. Sure, there's a lot of people not having income and suffering lots, but not 20% by far. I grew up there."

You deny its 20% yet you fail to provide a credible alternative figure, let alone a source.

Microburst2002

"The cause of this unprecedented situation is the "solution" that the spanish government gave to the problem of the Spanish ATC."

It is not unprecedented as Spanish ATC, though on a smaller scale, has previously opted to simply not turn up for work over alleged medical reasons or because they claim to have run out of overtime hours. Ie, Barcelona in July (while AENA was in negotiations with their union) and a couple of days ago in Galicia.

And the interpretation of the new overtime hours rule, which was accepted by a government decree yesterday just a couple of hours before the massive walkout, is the issue here. Not passenger-safety as some now claim.

"If you make a royal decree, jumping above all laws and previous agreements between AENA and the ATCOs..."

That's because AENA and the ATCO's union failed to reach an agreement, despite numerous attempts. Not reaching an agreement does NOT give them a right to deny to perform their job, certainly not en masse as we saw yesterday, as this creates massive chaos and inconvenience to thousands of people, as we saw yesterday and still today.

"So if I dropped a bomb on my neighbours house (he is a pain in the neck, believe me...) Would anyone be surprised if he droped another one on mine?"

A better analogy would be that your neighbour, in retaliation, dropped a bomb on the entire city just to get even with you. Because that is what happened yesterday.

transilvana:

"Goverment new that this was going to happen at least 2 weeks ago, at least 10 months ago!!!"

The government knew that Spanish ATCO's were not happy with the new rules, what they did not know, nor could foresee, is the grave and irresponsible act of a massive walkout yesterday. Don't blame THAT on the government, no matter how much you despise them.

In this regard it should be pointed out that even Spanish right wing media which have a long history of opposing and criticizing virtually anything "the socialists" do, now support them. Ultra right wing Libertaddigital, usually busy thinking up conspiracy theories on Prime Minister Zapatero personally planning the Madrid train bombings, or some another stupidity along that line, now actually not only backs the government's actions (very likely for the very first time!), it also lays the blame solely with Spanish ATC. [ Source (http://www.libertaddigital.com/opinion/editorial/contra-los-controladores-al-fin-57454/) in Spanish ]. Today's editorials of other traditionally right leaning Spanish media (ABC, El Mundo) have very similar opinions on the issue.

[VinRouge]

I know if I could move to a country, get a doubling of salary and buy a house at under 40% off what it was marketed for in 2007, I dont think I would be too woried about my own NATS...

Sack the lot. Its an unofficial strike and they selfish s0ds deserve the sack. If you dont like the T+Cs, leave, get a new job, and mind your @rse on the door as you make your way out.

[andrijander]

Vin Rouge,

seriously you've got no idea. And don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about your opinion but the fact that what you're asking for is just way worse than this last 24 hours. If that was viable it would have happened already and it hasn't. No chance mil or foreigners can cover their work tomorrow, next week or next month.

So please, stop all those "sack'em all" type posts, let's talk about real possibles here.

st7860,

my guess is you assume that employers are not "an association that uses thuggery, hooliganism, bribery and blackmail to get the wage level SHATTERED BELOW its true value for workers". Because let's face it, maybe in canada employers are angels that treat you good if you behave, but in Spain they're mainly sharks trying to get away with as much as possible for as little as possible. Therefore unions. And yes, some have to become more transparent and civilized, but they're a necessary evil.

[Bigears]

Urban Dictionary: Empathy (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Empathy)
The ability to feel what another being feels; something that's sorely lacking in modern life.

[2control]

Remember what happened 3rd of August 1981. President Regan ordered the controllers back to work no later than on the following Monday, or else...
11000 controllers were fired.

[st7860]

in many ways Canada is more socialist than the People's Republic of China.

for example, you need a licence to sell Milk, Eggs, Bread, etc, thus the prices are extremely high.

so many Canadians drive to the united states to buy milk, eggs, bread, etc.

[andrijander]

O_Fokker

That's the same speculating place that said yesterday that they had the alarm state up their sleeve before they activated it. I'm not posting my sources unless they're public.

If you think wikileaks is bad then I guess you're ok with governments saying one thing to their voters and doing whatever they please. Good on you? Erm, sure.

Apples and oranges? So all state workers have to reduce their salaries, except politicians (of course). But controllers and regular "funcionarios" is ok, but judges, politicians and Madrid metro workers not. Even if all are state workers. Makes sense? It seems to make sense to you.
Expansión.com (http://www.expansion.com/2010/05/25/juridico/1274806281.html)
This one says judges think that the royal decree is ilegal (for them, not for controllers or others).
El recorte de sueldo en el Metro pasa de 100 a 20 ? tras la huelga salvaje | Madrid | elmundo.es (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/07/17/madrid/1279382879.html)
This one talks about the Madrid Metro wild cat strike. Happened this year due to the royal decree. They reduced their loss 5 fold (say from 100 euros to 20 euros loss) by doing this. Government was supporting it (or not interfering) because Madrid is controlled by the opposition party.

The government says it is 20% yet at the same time they know that there is lots of people not declaring their income. What else you want me to say? You want me to make up a percentage? I can do that : 12%.
La economía sumergida en España: ¿dónde se genera el dinero negro? - Expansión.com (http://www.expansion.com/2010/03/10/economia-politica/1268242850.html)
State believes black money in the spanish system (not declared money) to be around 23% of declared GDP of the country. That generates tons of undeclared jobs. The amount of people I know in Spain working and earning money under the table is astounding, especially since I live abroad and can tell now the difference.

But Hey! It's all hearsay or I'm just making it up. Right?
A.

edited due to formatting issues

[LH2]

Before that statement is jumped on by 100 salivating pilots or armchair controllers take a minute to appreciate the gravity of what the government is proposing to do; you would potentially get less jail time for murdering someone!

Well, clearly an individual murder is a far lesser crime than putting thousands if not millions of lives at risk and bringing down your own country's economy. I wonder how many organ transplants and medical flights had to be cancelled because of this?

By the way, having read the Spanish (well, Catalan) news, the government's reaction appears to be wholly within expectations from a legal point of view. The situation is like this:

On 3-Dec, a royal decree (http://www.la-moncloa.es/NR/rdonlyres/31364AC1-967D-4761-B352-9171790ABD1B/130623/BOEA201018651.pdf) is published relating to a number of matters dealing with taxation, gaming, and aeronautical services. On the latter subject, two of the provisions relate to air traffic control services: one modifies the previous regulation such that a controller claiming to be unfit for work is subject to a medical inspection by AENA-designated physicians (this being brought about by the large number of unjustified "medical" absences experienced over the last year); the other provision puts Air Traffic Controllers under the direction of the Defence Ministry--note that this does not mean putting military controllers in charge of civilian traffic. It does mean that the Defence Ministry are in responsible for organising, planning, supervising, and controlling their work.

I am not sure what, if any, is the causality relation between the publication of this decree and the controller's actions on Friday. Clearly, the decree does not appear to have been a response to those actions, and given reports in the Spanish press (http://www.elpais.com/articulo/economia/controladores/abandonan/hotel/Auditorium/escoltados/policia/elpepueco/20101203elpepueco_19/Tes) that the hotel conference room where some of Madrid's controllers held their meeting last night was booked at 13:00 on Friday, i.e. at the same time as the decree's publication, it may or may not have been what caused the controllers to take their path of action.

On the other hand, this weekend is a major holiday in Spain. Given that Wednesday the 8th is a religious feast in the Catholic calendar (the name of the particular observation escapes me), the Spaniards in their pragmatism decide that they may as well take Monday and Tuesday off as well :) therefore giving them a five day holiday. Many of them had travel plans starting on Friday (my Spanish girlfriend included, she went by road against my suggestion that she use Ryanair :ouch:). Of course, the controllers would have been fully aware of the significance of these dates.

What then happened, after it became clear that the controllers were carrying out significant, concerted, and premeditated actions to disrupt the flow of air traffic during a holiday, in gross disregard of the law, was that the Spanish government resorted to that stipulated in Section 116 of the Spanish Constitution (http://www.senado.es/constitu_i/indices/consti_ing.pdf) (PDF), which authorises the states of alert, exception, and siege. This is in turn regulated by an organic (i.e., fundamental) law: Ley Orgánica 4/1981, de 1 de junio (http://www.csi-csif.es/local/modules/Portada/admon_y_servicios/LEGISLACI%D3N/LEGIS.%20O.%20DEL%20ESTADO/L.O.4.81%20ALARMA.pdf) (PDF), to be precise which stipulates in Section 1 that the aforementioned states will be declared when (translated and paraphrased) "extraordinary circumstances made impossible the maintenance of normality by the ordinary powers of the competent authorities".

Section 4 gives the specific circumstances in which a state of alert may be declared; in this case paragraph 4 is of interest, it reads:

"Paralización de servicios públicos esenciales para la comunidad, cuando no se garantice lo dispuesto en los artículos 28.2 y 37.2 de la Constitución, y concurra alguna de las demás circunstancias o situaciones contenidas en este artículo."

which roughly says the state of alarm may be declared in the event of "stoppage of public services essential to the community, when the stipulations of Sections 28.2 and 37.2 of the Constitution are not being met, and in concurrence with any of the other circumstances or situations described in this Section" (note that the last condition may not have been met, therefore making the application of the state of alert inconstitutional in this case--this is merely a personal observation, and I'm not competent in this subject.) Sections 28.2 and 37.2 of the Spanish Constitution deal with the right to strike and the maintenance of minimal services during such an event.

The relevant implication of a state of alert in this case, is that all civil servants, police forces, lower administrative entities, etc., etc., are placed under the direct control of the "competent authority" (the central Spanish government in this case), which may take a series of measures such as the imposition of additional services extraordinary in their length or nature, and occupy and take control of "industries, factories, workshops, or places of any description, except private residences". Penalties are imposed in the event of disobedience or resistance to orders given by the competent authority, and those are particularly severe in the case of civil servants (which Spanish controllers are).

The application of a state of alert, in combination with the provisions of royal decree 13/2010 concerning supervision of air traffic services by the Defence Ministry, is claimed to have led to a "mobilisation" of controllers. It is unclear to me what is meant by this--the press reports that they are now under military command and thus could be tried for sedition in the event that they refuse to do their job. However, this is incorrect on two points: the first is that they are not under military command, but merely under the orders of the Ministry of Defence (who not unreasonably have deployed officers with the rank of Colonel and above in the field to liase and monitor compliance with their orders); the second point on which the above is incorrect is that you do not need to be under military command to be charged with sedition. The applicable law is the Spanish penal code (http://mural.uv.es/neusas/docs/PENAL.pdf), Title XXII, Chapter I, Section 544, which states:

"Son reos de sedición los que, sin estar comprendidos en el delito de rebelión, se alcen pública y tumultuariamente para impedir, por la fuerza o fuera de las vías legales, la aplicación de las Leyes o a cualquier autoridad, corporación oficial o funcionario público, el legítimo ejercicio de sus funciones o el cumplimiento de sus acuerdos, o de las resoluciones administrativas o judiciales."

Forgive me for not translating, you can use Google (http://translate.google.com/) if needed.

So, to summarise:

* Spanish ATCOs went on a wild strike at the start of an important holiday.

* This may or may not have been in response to the publication of royal decree 13/2010 which, in part, dealt with air traffic matters.

* In any event, the above decree was not a response to the controllers actions on Friday, as implied by some in the media.

* The controllers actions were deemed by the government to be causing major disruption to the normal functioning of the country, in contravenance of the controllers constitutional obligations as relates to industrial action. This led to the declaration of a state of alert, in accordance with Spanish law.

* The part of the executive responsible for air traffic is, since Friday, the Defence Ministry, which needs to ensure that essential services are maintained. In order to liase with the civil service and monitor compliance, they have deployed relatively high ranking military officers at ATC centres throughout the country. Apparently they have also opened certain military bases to civilian traffic, amongst other measures.

* The controllers directing civilian traffic are not military controllers. They are the normal controllers assigned to their usual posts.

* There has been a degree of misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation on the local and international press about the whole thing, tending (strangely enough :hmm:) to exaggerate or sensationalise the events. Not saying it is not an extraordinary situation, but it doesn't need any extra embelishments such as the Torygraph talking about the presence of "armed police" at the airports (all Spanish police are armed, and being in charge of immigration [Policía Nacional] and customs [Guardia Civil], you can find them at every international airport every day of the year.)

Lastly, comments to the effect that they are working with "guns pointing in their ears", such as Heathrow Director's above, do not conform to reality, are grossly out of place, filled with ignorance, and above all they are deeply disrespectful of the members of police and armed forces who are well aware of the very strict conditions under which they may draw (let alone operate) their weapons.

I hope this helps clarify the situation somewhat. I do not have any direct or indirect involvement with it, and although my position is one of total lack of sympathy towards the majority of Spanish controllers, this is exclusively on the basis of the appalling service received. I also have a social life in Spain and have come to meet a few aspiring and serving controllers over the years, and I have found their motivations and (lack of) interest in their job rather questionable.

[Lon More]

This is the person here making the most sense, a Controller and also a member of the IFATCA board.

ATCWatcher wrote . The controllers are forced back to work under military supervision so flights will resume, but the problems will remain and soon get worse.
This will most probably end up in a tragedy. Everyone will lose in the end.
So don't laugh too hard.

My tuppenceworth What sort of working atmosphere do you expect if a Military Controller is sat watching your every move? Like a constantly present, hostile Check Pilot with only a PPL? I imagine the flow rates are going to be extremely low as nobody is prepared to make what is seen as a mistake by somebody unqualified for the job.

I worked through the French strike in 1973 and it was frightening to see some of the things happening in French airspace. The military controllers were. of course, just following orders and therefore could expect complete exoneration when it all went TU. I don't know how they communicated with the aircraft, they certainly couldn't communicate with adjacent sectors. I hope IFALPA recommends that its members avoid Spanish airspace until yhis is satisfied.
For those who's well thought out solution is to fire the lot and then privatise it I suggest you go away and have a sit down in a quiet room. There is (still) a world wide shortage of ATCOs so this would only make attracting qualified personnel expensive but they have to obtain validations at the unit so probably a year to eighteen moths before they can work alone. Double, or even treble, the period if you are starting from ab-initio.

[Lon More]

Of the permanently unemployed...as it should.
Jail next?

If everybody you disliked was put away or shot the world would be a pretty empty place

[aldegar]

I'd like to comment some of the posts, but a few hours ago I had people with guns coming in my ACC and I've been signing all kind of papers stating that I am now Military Personnel.

Therefore, I can't freely express my opinion on a public forum since I could be court martialed.

Thanks to all supporting us.

[LH2]

Slightly OT, but...

"Another thing to know from Spain: 20% unemployment means there is a huge amount of people not declaring their income. Sure, there's a lot of people not having income and suffering lots, but not 20% by far. I grew up there."

You deny its 20% yet you fail to provide a credible alternative figure, let alone a source.

Underdeclared income and informal work notwithstanding (and it is a reality in Spain as in much of Southern Europe), I understand the number of people who qualify as unemployed or not sufficiently employed is in fact significantly higher than that provided above. I do not recall the exact figure, although 30% rings a bell. My source: personal exchange with a EU employee in charge of labour and education programs in Spain, early 2010. Sorry it is not a public and verifiable source.

[Nock]

@ aldegar: good luck sir. This situation brings all of us to darker old times of Europe. Even if we, foreign ATCOs, don't understand what it's all about (or don't support you in this fight) I think we should all bear in mind that we could also have to face this kind of situation and see what we consider as granted be taken away as easily and as quickly as it is for you.

I sincerely hope that your situation will improve and that you will be able to come back to more peaceful working conditions that make possible a safe and efficient work.

Nock

[LH2]

My tuppenceworth What sort of working atmosphere do you expect if a Military Controller is sat watching your every move?

That is not what is happening. There are no military controllers in civilian centres.

The only flights being controlled by the military are those that choose to land at any of the military airfields which have been made available to civil traffic.

For those who's well thought out solution is to fire the lot and then privatise it I suggest you go away and have a sit down in a quiet room.

That would be the Spanish government then. You will find that they have privatised the tower and approach services and infrastructure. The details are in the royal decree from yesterday, which I have linked in a previous post. They may need sitting in a quiet room, but it's a bit late now.

[andrijander]

LH2,

I must say your long post above is one of the best I've read in a long time, albeit your personal opinions are yours, and I may agree more or less. But the accounting of the situation is on the money. Hope people actually read it.

Also it may be that people not earning enough to live in a dignified way in Spain is more than 20% of the population. I believe it is the case. But then again we've got to set a starting point somewhere. In any case if you have a job (as badly paid as you want but not declared) you shouldn't count as unemployed (which doesn't mean you wouldn't qualify for state help). But then again this is another matter: average salaries in spain are too low.

A.

[wonnski]

The solution has already been demonstrated, in the US in 1981.
Give them a short period of time to report to work, after that don't bother - you no longer have a job.
Privatize if needed, but salaries adjusted to a reasonable level, with fired strikers allowed to apply to work for the new lower wages.
If unemployment is high in Spain, there is no reason to believe that a high percentage wouldn't face reality.
Short term pain for aviation, but long term gain for Spain, and by extension, the rest of Europe.

[Microburst2002]

LH2

They screwed it totally, didn't they?
And after all, they will be totally screwed for nothing. they didn't have the balls to go to the end. they would have won, then. you can't jail all the ATCOs. Who would work then? Government would have had to negotiate.

I find funny your comment about the news

"read the spanish (well, Catalan) news"

Maybe you have been exposed to the nationalist tsunami, lately?

[fokker1000]

How many top quality guys and girls have lost thier jobs in aviation (in all departments) over the last couple of years? Far too many....

Spanish ATC is generally considered very well below average in Europe, whilst getting above average pay.

Why not TRY and show how fantastically well you do your job and therefore, deserve your pay? Are you able too??

If an engine goes bang for me at V1, I can't just unplug headset and walk away from my desk because I'm 'too stressed'.:mad:

[Guy D'ageradar]

Having sat in a control tower with a gun in my ear

Standard practice I believe, when the Kaiser.....sorry POTUS is involved. And then they inform you that they didn't bother to bring approach plates for the planned destination :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Brings a whole new level of meaning to the term "cowboys"!!

[Microburst2002]

Aldegar

You really screwed it. You shouldn't have started the whole thing in the first place.
Did you think the Government would just sit with you and negotiate?
Why haven't you resisted one more day. Each one during his shift. And when they realised they cannot put all the aTCOs in jail, they would sit and negotiate.

Now they will screw you till death, anyway!

La habéis cagado de una manera colosal.
qué pena. Tantos problemas para tanta gente para nada.

Ahora os toca apechugar.

[Old_Fokker]

Andrijander:

"If you think wikileaks is bad then I guess you're ok with governments saying one thing to their voters and doing whatever they please. Good on you? Erm, sure."

Quite the contrary. Yet I do realize, and that cannot be said about Spanish ATC it appears, that we are all in some difficult economic times in which the government has to take drastic measures, if it wants to avoid following Greece and recently Ireland.

"Apples and oranges? So all state workers have to reduce their salaries, except politicians (of course). But controllers and regular "funcionarios" is ok, but judges, politicians and Madrid metro workers not. Even if all are state workers. Makes sense? It seems to make sense to you."

So you recognize this is about money after all then?

If Spanish ATC's salaries, productivity rates and costs per hour would be at a similar level as that of their European colleagues, then you'd have a point. But we all know they are not. Productivity is below European average while costs per hour, due to high wages, almost double those of British controllers.

"This one says judges think that the royal decree is ilegal (for them, not for controllers or others)."

All the article linked states is that the judges doubt about the constitutional legality of the Royal Decree regarding the savings measures. That it is just illegal for them and not for controllers or others is your personal judgement.

"El recorte de sueldo en el Metro pasa de 100 a 20 ? tras la huelga salvaje | Madrid | elmundo.es (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/07/17/madrid/1279382879.html)
This one talks about the Madrid Metro wild cat strike. Happened this year due to the royal decree. They reduced their loss 5 fold (say from 100 euros to 20 euros loss) by doing this. Government was supporting it (or not interfering) because Madrid is controlled by the opposition party."

And it was this opposition party, the PP (which usually sides (http://www.libertaddigital.com/economia/el-pp-culpa-a-blanco-de-la-huelga-encubierta-de-los-controladores-1276397721/) with Spanish ATC), which reached an agreement with the Madrid Metro workers. If you want to blame someone over that, blame the PP, not the Spanish Government.

"State believes black money in the spanish system (not declared money) to be around 23% of declared GDP of the country. That generates tons of undeclared jobs. The amount of people I know in Spain working and earning money under the table is astounding, especially since I live abroad and can tell now the difference. "

Black money has always been around in Spanish economy yet that doesn't mean that now all of a sudden the real unemployment rate us much lower.

Spain has the highest unemployment rate yet also some of the lowest salaries in Europe. With the economic crisis we have now and the austerity measures the Spanish Government just had to adopt for every one, it is simply incomprehensible that a relatively very small fraction of its working force are allowed to maintain the highest European salaries for their job while their productivity is below European average.

[testpanel]

Spain needs to wake-up, get a kick in the b.lls or just (admit) and go bankrupt.
In the latter case, kick out the PSOE and PP, try to control the country via EU and get all the working people on a (normal) "9-to-5" contract!
Lines of waiting people on the street (in rain) should be forbidden while so-called office-workers "need" their coffee at 10:30 till 11:00 (and just leave their place while the office is packed with people!):ugh:
BTW, banks in spain are the same!

List of political parties in Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Spain)
What are these "parties" doing, except for wasting tax-payers money!
Privatise and let the controllers decide if they want to come back, otherwise leave it!

[garp]

If everybody you disliked was put away or shot the world would be a pretty empty place

@ aldegar: good luck sir. This situation brings all of us to darker old times of Europe. Even if we, foreign ATCOs, don't understand what it's all about (or don't support you in this fight) I think we should all bear in mind that we could also have to face this kind of situation and see what we consider as granted be taken away as easily and as quickly as it is for you.

I sincerely hope that your situation will improve and that you will be able to come back to more peaceful working conditions that make possible a safe and efficient work.

Nock

Thanks for the sober and respectful comments.
While I may disagree with the claims/reactions which have lead to this drama, I hope that this will work out in the end but I fear that there will only be losers when the dust has settled.

[JToledo]

Not really in the mood for a long post.

But even though it has already been said people seem all too willing to ignore it.

No control tower or ACC were ever left unmanned, and service was indeed provided for medical flights, emergencies and state aircraft.

I'll say it again, because I'm sure people will quickly disregard this and go on with their rantings:

No control tower or ACC were ever left unmanned, and service was indeed provided for medical flights, emergencies and state aircraft.

[Denti]

With a 90% sickout rate? Really really doubt it.

[cldrvr]

These guys make up to 300k (Sterling) a year, did they really think they were going to get any sympathy from anyone with unemployment hovering at 20%?

The Spanish government is doing the right thing, impose emergency measures and get them back to work, those that refuse, fire and prosecute them.

[climbwithagoodrate]

FFS folks!

regardless of the supposed large salaries earned in the past - for those quoting 'sources' and 'figures', anything from any Government organisation in any coutry should be taking with a huge shovel-full of salt - the subsequent enforced changes to working hours/shifts etc are completely unacceptable and i for one applaud the Spanish ATCOs for having the b*lls to do it.

The resultant Government response to threaten ATCOs with arrest/imprisonment for failing to return to work is an appalling state of affairs and hardly conducive to a safe working environment - this is an accident waiting to happen....

And for those who feel the Spanish ATCOs aren't very good at their jobs, don't give directs, etc etc - that's not what this is now about. I'm sure there are many people out there who have had changes imposed in the last 20 years that they wish they could have stopped/done something about. In this situation, the Spanish ATCOs clearly felt that their only course of action was to walk out - hat off.

Regards,

ATCO1
Swanwick ACC

[testpanel]

And, if i may say again, we CAN DO without the atco's (yes, i know the consequenses, not to long ago there was no radar in BIO, it started to get a mess, with IB only speaking spanish).
They are there in their "towers" for us, we are not up there in sometimes crappy circumstances for them, our airlines pay them as well!:=
(and no, i not work for mol!)

[climbwithagoodrate]

And another thing...

for those advocating a 'sack-em-all' policy - please, organise a visit to an ATC Centre/Approach/Tower unit and get yourselves an insight into the job of an ATCO. It's not the easiest job in the world, it takes a long time to train and not everyone can do it.

Yes, most ATCOs are paid well - but a bit like pilots, we really earn our money when things start to go wrong... Would you like to be in need of assistance at 37,000' with Juan the newspaper-delivery boy your last hope of seeing your loved ones again, or someone who has at least a basic understanding of what is going on and who might just be able to help you?

[cldrvr]

These guys are holding a country at hostage, fire the lot of them. I will guarantee you that they will not get any sympathy from the pilot population.

So even if the various reports now out in the media are wrong quoting 300k a year, they would not have collectively made that number up, even if they are out by half it is still ridiculous, they are civil servants and as such should take heed of the title "servant".

[songbird29]

In post 772 Reinjan asks for a balanced view:

Could anyone with a view to the situation comment on similarities - or not - with the USA ATC situation in 1981, Ronald Reagan's measures taken and the then immediate and final outcome for all involved?

In 1981 the FAA had made its homework to counter the PATCO strike. Apart from calling back retired people, putting managers and office people back behind the radar screens, the use of military support personnel, the extension of working hours, (see also post 780 by ATC-Watcher) the FAA had made up a scheme of rigorous flow control ,allowing a limited and strongly regulated number of aircraft to fly on particular routes at fixed Flight Levels.

11.000 controllers were relentlessly fired. No mercy was shown until president Clinton permitted the rehiring of some. Gradually a new generation of controllers were hired and trained. A new union was formed and the funny thing is that nearly all demands which were refused to the PATCO union were, over the years and by negotiation, granted to the new NATCA union. Under the Bush administration it came to clashes again, but no strikes, the FAA claiming that controllers earned more than $ 200K.

1981 saw the first application of flow control on a massive scale. It led to the creation of the US Command Centre at Herndon which regulates all traffic ATC-wise in the US, later followed by the Brussels based CFMU in Europe.

In his message ATC-watcher concludes:
Totally different in Spain today.

Of course there are differences, after all it's almost 30 years later. But there are similarities as well:

The PATCO Union isolated itself from the American public and did not get much sympathy. The Spanish controllers now need police protection to go to work. I read in one of the posts that they did not participate in the general strike a few weeks ago. Like PATCO they thought they could win in isolation. Both overstretched their luck.

A few posts hint at international solidarity among controllers. I wouldn't be so sure. Heavy traffic is reported around Spain, which must have been organised/permitted by neighbouring controllers. International solidarity was not organised for the US controllers in 1981 either. IFATCA organised a European meeting where this was discussed but they came not any further than writing a nasty letter. There was only one IFATCA member-country in favour of real action.

I sincerely hope that the fate of the Spanish controllers remains different from the PATCO colleagues. They should come to senses and seek an honorable way out, recognizing the economically difficult situation of their country.

[testpanel]

@ cldrvr:

Amen, You understand!

[fokker1000]

CWaGR and cldrvr,
Well said both.
I don't want a single person to be put out of work, but, and a big but, if you rake in [get paid] well over the top than the market pays, then what do expect?
BTW, I took a big pay cut or risk losing my job this year. Not nice, but a fact of real life in these bad times.
I feel lucky I got a job to pay my bills and feed the family..
Think on, and try to look sharp:eek:
FK10

[climbwithagoodrate]

It's not the pay reduction they are striking over - open your eyes!!!!

[Lon More]

LH2 wrote There are no military controllers in civilian centres.


LH2 wrotethey have deployed relatively high ranking military officers at ATC centres throughout the country.

If they are not controllers they must be supervising; another task they are totally unsuited for. The only reason they are in the Ops Room then is to intimidate.

[mr.777]

Fair play to the Spaniards.

They've talked the talk and now they're walking the walk. Certainly more than most of us (in the UK anyway) are/were prepared to do when it comes/came to having our pensions & pay messed with.

[VinRouge]

If they arent striking over their pay, they need to file lots of reports and leak them to the media. They will have a clear concience then if anything goes wrong. One would assume the controllers are not overworked, otherwise they wouldnt be volunteering for so much overtime.

We all know this is actually about pay and filty unionism.

Greed isnt a pretty thing, when 20% of your fellow countrymen are unemployed and the IMF is knocking at the door... :ugh:

[VinRouge]

Suck it up. Have you seen bond yeilds on Spanish sovereign debt lately?

[Lone_Ranger]

..."It's not the pay reduction they are striking over - open your eyes!!!!" ....

Bullsh1t!!!.

Theres only one way to deal with arrogant bullies...bully them harder, well see how cocky you lot are when the police come knocking on your doors, not that itll solve anything, but a lot of your fellow contrymen will applaud it .

Shame of it all is, your country is allready on the brink of financial disaster then you idiots do this

[arearadar]

Firstly I do not wish to denigrate my military ex-collegues. I am retired after 30 odd years as an ATCO at LATCC, hence ex-...

Reading about the industrial action, apparently now ended, by Spanish ATC I was horrified to read that their duties were being performed by military controllers. This reminds me of the occasion when this happened in France, for similar reasons, which resulted in the mid-air collision over Nantes of a Spantax Coronado (CV990) and an Iberia DC-9 (5th March 1973). Military controllers do their job and we do ours, but they are different. Neither, without appropriate training, can do each others job.

Dave

[VinRouge]

Perhaps the Spanish ATCOs should have considered that before 90% of them took unauthorised and illegal strike action.

[arearadar]

Should strike action be illegal ?

Dave

[Northerner]

Vin rouge
"One would assume the controllers are not overworked, otherwise they wouldnt be volunteering for so much overtime."
Speaking to a controller friend of mine who is Spanish but does not work in Spain, I donn't believe that the overtime is voluntary; I understood the majority of it to be compulsory, although I stand to be corrected.

One thing strikes (pardon the pun) me about all this is that we are very clearly not in possession of facts from credible sources and as such I don't think we can easily judge the rights and wrongs of this. The media and government sources will clearly put a spin on it all, if indeed they have the true facts in the first place! Don't praise or condemn until we know.

Cheers,
northerner

"Keep smiling... It makes people wonder what you're up to..."

[arearadar]

From a fellow northerner (Lancaster)

I am sure we do not hear all the facts all of the time. Sometimes the facts are as the politics see fit to disseminate.

My original post was not about politics but as a result of facts that could not be massaged.

My second post was, I suppose, political, but only asking a question !!

Dave:)

[VinRouge]

area,

I believe if you are a professional engaged in critical infrastructure work such as emergency services and ATC, then yes, it should be.

There are better ways of going about this than striking.

I wonder if the controllers would take a halving of salary and pensions if they double the number of controllers?

I think we all know what the answer to that one would be.

[arearadar]

I would draw the line at emergency services.

Dave.

PS What is your job ? Have you ever withdrawn your services?

[calcagafo]

Vinrouge:

I wonder if the controllers would take a halving of salary and pensions if they double the number of controllers?

I think we all know what the answer to that one would be.

Do you?

they have increased our working hours by 40% (before last friday´s royal decree, now, without the sick leaves, maternity/paternity leaves, formation training etc, not included in the working hours, well, you make the calculation yourself)

they have reduced our pay by that same 40%

I think we would all prefer to have another 10% off our pays and go back to our "late" working hours....

As many pointed out before: it´s not about the money

regards

[arearadar]

Hello mate,

I went on strike for half a day back in the 1960`s. It was much against my priciples but, as in your case, it was not about the money. It was about the breaking of contractual agreements.

Sadly, it seems, nothing has changed !

Good Luck to you.

Dave

[LH2]

If they are not controllers they must be supervising;

I have already commented on this. Please read what has been posted if you wish to reply.

another task they are totally unsuited for.

I am not in a position to make such a judgement. May I know the basis for your assertion?

The only reason they are in the Ops Room then is to intimidate

I do not know the details of their deployment, and specifically, I do not know who are in the control rooms or for what purpose. I would feel very concerned however, about having to fly in a sector under control of someone who needs intimidation to go to work. And no, it's not about the stress, it's about the lack of maturity shown by such a person. The former you can deal with, but the latter...

As for the hamster wheel comments elsewhere: I do know and appreciate the job controllers do, and I have in the past received invaluable assistance from them (and a bit of leniency as well on occasion :\), and I have been to a few control towers both in Spain and other countries (France, Germany, and the Czech Republic). My impression comparing the levels of performance and professional demeanour of the three latter with the first has only reinforced my previous opinion based on service received at the other end of the mic/telephone.

I am genuinely interested to hear, Lon, about your experience visiting Spanish control centres and interacting with Spanish ATCOs, as you are much more qualified than me to form a valuable opinion. I do note that there appear to be huge differences in the level of performance of controllers depending on the regions, so please specify which centres you have been to (in my experience, in the South--Seville, Malaga, etc.--they are generally fine, and they get worse as one approaches Madrid and Barcelona).

[LH2]

Dave,

I was horrified to read that their duties were being performed by military controllers.

You don't need to be, because they weren't.

Easy mistake to make though, from an uncritical read of the media. That's what I thought myself, until I queried it.

Sorry, just saw your other post:

Should strike action be illegal ?

It is if you do not assure certain minimum levels of service, amongst other things. Strike action in itself is not illegal, in fact it is a constitutional right in Spain, but certain behaviour which does not fall within the definition of a strike certainly is against the law (not to mention common sense), as has been shown.

[arearadar]

Hi guys,

Does `the Military have taken over control` as outlined by Heathrow Director mean that civilian controllers have to provide their services with a gun at their ear or that Military controllers have taken on the role of providing Air Traffic Control Services ?

If it means that the Military are to provide ATC services, may I remind you all, of the mid-air collision of a Spantax CV990 and an Iberia DC-9 over Nantes on 5th March 1973. This was a direct result of control being entrusted to the Military when the French controllers went on strike.

I do not mean to denigrate my Military ATC friends, but that we each do our own job. We can`t do each other`s job without adequate training.

Dave

[Jamie2k9]

Does anybody know if Spanish ATC plan to walk out again between Dec 27 and Jan 1?? Any help would be useful.

[paidworker]

Vinrouge the funny thing is that its not the IMF knocking on the Irish , Spanish or Portugeese door but dear old Merkel looking to ensure the greedy German banks dont have to write off the loans they made, out of greed . That is the foundation of the problem down here and in Ireland. The best thing we could do for ourselves is tell you guys to shove it and go back to the peseta , punt and Drachma and just devalue like as always was done and leave you holding your precious euro,, its just like a stone around our knecks now.

The incompetence of the Spanish government managing this along with an agenda is staggering yet people like yourself are so easily stirred as part of the mob and its sad that a suppossed well paid professional like yourself is baying for blood. 2 weeks ago they realised the controllers were out of hours in an agreement made 2 months ago and yesterday they sent a letter to everbody telling them their hours were increased and they had no choice..brookfields and p2f are treated better .. its not all about money from the atc at least and even if it is so what .. as others have said , the pilots would not be paying to fly now if they had stood up for themselves. State medical surgeons are paid just as much, should there money be cut , are people calling for it to be cut.. are they part of the " priveligiado " ? ..I mean all they do is " routine " surgery .. its not complicated...all you need is a knife.. Blanco and Zapaterro dont want the dispute solved, their objective is not cost savings for the state .. they want the union gone so they may sell AENA at a higher price to their buddys for a donation to the party coffers no doubt. They are of course not falling on their own sword giving themselves a cut of 5%.

I certainly agree that the controllers have not been entirely logical in this but If i were pushed and poked with laws being passed monthly to tell me what my new employment contract is and previous agreements being rowed in I would be none to happy . no holidays , forced overtime , no letup in pressure ,, I can see how I would snap... Nor would I be happy to work under armed gaurd with my doctors advice about fitness ignored and no ability to resign as it amounts to treason ( in fact controllers here cant resign and could not without severe penalty before the state of emergency was declared but now quitting is " treason " ... harks back to darker days in europe and the east.

How sad it is that the state is managing to turn its citizens on each other to take care of the german banks.

Somebody asked if it safe to fly here at christmas time. Based on a quick conversation today with a controller in Torejon I would book with an airline that will help you change your dates or flights if its cancelled ( ie not ryanair etc . who just give you a refund and leave you to fend for yourself ). This isnt over by a longshot and from what I understand especially in winter weather things can be made run very slow indeed. There is plenty of problems in the pipeline yet.

Should Strike be illegal.. no of course not . quite frankly unless your management dont be so short sighted.. if you do not have the right to strike then you end up with a dicator state , like say North Korea. It has been impossible to have an all out strike in many areas of the spanish workforce for some time now , from Metro drivers to ATC. Basically as things stand in most sectors down here you can strike so long as it doesnt inconvenience anybody, especially in sectors the state wishes to sell such as metro , rail and air. The end game in the ponzi scheme is near for everbody yet everybody follows the pied piper whilst singing songs of praise.

[ex_matelot]

Good luck fellas!

Do you honestly believe you will achieve anything though?
I hope you do.

[taekyon2]

It’s funny (and sad) how the core issues of this debate have been drowned out by all kinds of nonsensical noise throughout the past few months. Considering the issues at hand, why does it matter how professional or unprofessional Spanish ATCOs are compared to ATCOs in other places? Why does it matter how much money they are earning? In this particular context I consider these to be non-issues.

It really surprises me how some people here get so incredibly hung up about how much money Spanish ATCOs used to earn, or are still earning. It’s not like the Spanish ATCOs were stealing the money from their employers. If anything, they successfully worked the system to their advantage to maximize their own benefits, but why blame them for that? Wouldn’t most people do the same? What’s unethical about getting the most out of your contract, as long as you are not breaking any laws, or consciously violating any other kinds of rules?

It seems to me as if AENA took the decision to grant high overtime pay and beneficial working conditions to the Spanish controllers in the past, and I guess they did that for a good reason (not enough staff, in need of OT, etc…). It’s supply and demand. Yes, perhaps the salaries of some controllers became outrageously high as a consequence of that, but how is that the ATCOs fault? Isn’t it rather a consequence of myopic management on behalf of AENA? Why should the controllers take such a severe beating for that now, and see themselves subjected to a sudden and what appears to be a disproportionately harsh increase of workload in conjunction with massive pay cuts? Simply because AENA noticed what fools they have been in the past, allowing for such benefits to take hold in the first place?

Then there are the comments on here how the ATCOs should just suck it up and get used to the kind of ****ty contracts and corporate treatment far too many people are unfortunately suffering in their jobs these days. How sad is that? What’s up with this “My life is ****, so your life should be **** too” attitude?
Personally, I know I wouldn’t be fit to work in an environment of constant coercion. Some of the facts that the Spanish ATCOs who have contributed to this discussion have shared here are simply appalling. (e.g. operational decisions being made by non-operational staff). For a controller this is the stuff nightmares are made of. It scares the **** out of me, and it upsets me because I know what corresponding operational risks and consequences are. Last but not least, it never ceases to astonish me how conceited yet at the same time ignorant to the complexities of the ATM system some of the contributors to this debate who have claimed to be professional pilots are. They may not notice it themselves, but it shows in a lot of their comments and statements.

It’s very unfortunate that it has come this far, but if only half of what has been shared about AENA’s regime is true, this is definitely NOT how an ATC operation in Western Europe should be run in the 21st century. I’m afraid it will be extremely tough to establish anything that resembles good will between the involved parties again. I’ll be transiting through Madrid in a couple of days myself, and am hoping for the best.

[ATC Watcher]

Songbird29 : Perfectly correct about the similarities between PATCO 1981 and Spain today about a Union believing they could win in isolation, or better said : strong enough to shut down the country, and get whatever they wanted as former USCA President declared a year or two ago. I had forgotten that point. An that of Flow Control of course. You're right on that one too ( except for CFMU in Europe that was created because demand exploded and infrastructure could not follow )

When I said totally different situations I was more refering to the staff numbers . In 1981 the FAA facilities were overstaffed,and they were a relatively large workforce (young retired controllers in their late 40s and early 50s, management guys with licence, instructors, military etc..)that could be used to fill a gap. In Spain their are vastly understaffed ( hence the overtime and problems today) No retired controllers able to take over (too old anyway) , very few management holding a license , plus a very small military controller workforce ( a couple of Hundred max ).

Another large similarity between the 2 is the Political will of a Government to crunch a Union and set an example for the others Unions. (remember the postal workers Union in 81 that also wanted to challenge the Federal employees Strike ban ?)

As to IFATCA poor reaction : I was in that meeting in Amsterdam. There were much more that one European Union wanting to strike support . But the consensus was against, you're right. People were affraid among other things that the US Government would take over the control over the lucrative High seas in The North Atlantic., and possibly never give it back .
.
Bringing back strange memories all that.
ATCW

[clipped_wings]

Without going into the rights and wrongs of the strike

I just wonder about the safety aspects of accepting an ATC clearance from a civilian ATCO working under military duress?

The same situation in a cockpit would be called a hijack.

Perhaps nobody cares as long as the planes keep operating.

[BDiONU]

I just wonder about the safety aspects of accepting an ATC clearance from a civilian ATCO working under military duress?

The same situation in a cockpit would be called a hijack.
Sigh! The point has repeatedly been made that there is no military duress being applied.
To try and explain. Controlled AirSpace is owned/managed/licensed by each European government and those governments award a licence to an ANSP to run the airspace in accordance with the terms and conditions of the licence. In Spain it's AENA, in Germany DFS, in UK its NATS and so on, whether the ANSP is adminstered by the government or privately owned (in Europe that is only NATS) makes no real difference because they must comply with the licence and state regulations.

We are all, to a greater or lesser extent, dependant on air transport to support the infrastructure of our countries. That may be by bringing in tourists, essential supplies and equipment, consumer goods, spares, food etc. etc. Therefore air transport and the structure to support it is a vital national asset and it is extremely important to each country to ensure that it is secured for normal operation, otherwise that country is going to sink.

The Spanish government were faced with their national air transport system collapsing and had to take action to secure it. The decision they made was to make the airspace military and bring it and the supporting structure (staff) completely under government control, i.e. not operated by the state owned AENA hence a military Colonel now being effectively the Centres Managers. This has allowed them to be able to, for want of a better word, coerce the staff to operate the air transport system.
That does NOT mean that the Armed Forces are sitting in each control centre with weapons. Nor does it mean that military controllers are now controlling civil aircraft, they are simply not trained (nor licensed) to.

Without getting into the various rights or wrongs of this I'm looking at the future and how this affects Europe as a whole. The EU are spending a large sum of money to integrate all of the ATC infrastructure across Europe (SESAR (http://www.sesarju.eu/) with an eye on the American Next Gen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Generation_Air_Transportation_System) project). AENA are quite a big player in this undertaking, however it seems to me that Spain can no longer participate as they've now stepped outside of European Harmonisation.

Interesting times ahead, very interesting times.

BD

[Dizzy Llama]

for the people who can't read a long post and get their info from things like The Sun, can I just quote a couple of bits from above -

2 weeks ago they realised the controllers were out of hours in an agreement made 2 months ago and yesterday they sent a letter to everbody telling them their hours were increased and they had no choicelaws being passed monthly to tell me what my new employment contract is and previous agreements being rowed in no holidays , forced overtime ,in fact controllers here cant resign and could not without severe penalty before the state of emergency was declared but now quitting is " treason "I know people don't want to miss a week in Benidorm, but ....

[Phalconphixer]

Spain Politics under Zapatero, Blanco and Rubalcaba...

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and /or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

"It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion."

“Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play.”

(Josef Goebbels, Minister for Propaganda, Germany 1925-1945)

"Politicians are like seagulls. They arrive from out of nowhere in a fluster, squawking, sticking their beaks in.... crapping all over everything and then flying off leaving a mess."

"Politicians are like nappies / diapers...They should be changed frequently, and for the same reason."

'Anyone who wants to be a politician should be automatically barred from being one.

(Not Josef Goebbels...)

The thing is of course that it would be no different if Rajoy and the PP were in charge. I was amused to see that Mariano did in fact get caught up (inadvertently?) when his flight from Lanzarote back to Madrid was grounded by the action...of course Snr. Smug-mug is now demanding a full explanation from the Zapatero government...yeah, him and a few thousand others...

Spanish politics, like Brit politics is, was and always will be hit the little man hard, fast and often. Spain is a country where in the event of an accident, the primary objective of any Accident Investigation seems to be to apportion blame and work out who to put in jail. It's not a case of establishing how or why the accident happened in the first place. If one looks upon the ATCOs walkout as an Accident Investigator would, the overwhelming evidence points to the primary suspect in this case as being AENA itself being driven by the government.

There are many similarities between the ATCO action and the governments reaction and the UK miners strike and the Thatcher government and UK media response...

Its all about killing the Unions, flogging off the family jewels to raise cash, (yet retaining a controlling interest) and keeping the little man under the thumb.

pp

[BDiONU]

Dizzy Llama, that bore restating. I think that the issue here is twofold.
AENA management spectacularly failed to have sufficient trained and in training workforce to operate their centres and covered the shortfall by paying overtime, lots of overtime. In the short term it worked but where was the long term plan?
The Spanish government spectacularly failed to oversee and manage the ANSP that operated their countries air transport system. They failed to ensure that there was sufficient workforce, that plans were in place to recruit and train staff and that excessive hours weren't being worked by staff.


The result is a very ugly situation with massive repercutions and I have no idea how they're going to come back from this.

BD

[Nock]

Just my point of view:
I am convinced that the problem is not to determine whether spanish ATCOs have or not guns pointed at their head. The real issue is that there are in centers and towers people that now have authority over ATCO and at the same time no real knowledge of what is civil air traffic control (no offense to army, I'm just saying that our jobs are significantly different).
Who would accept to work with the pressure of someone who has no competence for the job? What are the consequences regarding safety with this situation? I read on this topic that some operational decisions had been taken away fom ATCO and been given to managers, that's already problematical but now if the manager has no training to take these decisions that's another step!
in a word, I'm not sure that we should be so spitful and say that it's only spanish controllers' fault cause one day we all may have to face that situation

Nock

[irishpilot1990]

Nock the safety implications of military control is far less then that off no control! They made their bed now ly in it or go jail

[Nock]

f I had my way I would sack you for compromising safety, 100s of european controllers would happily move Spain and work for less then you and work better!

Irishpilot1990, by reading some European controller publications, I would not be that sure that 100s european controller would like to switch with their spanish counterparts!
source: http://www.atceuc.org/upload/ATC-EUC/ATCEUC-Documents/329/atceuc-press-release-on-the-situation-in-spain.pdf

By the way, as explained on this document, safety really is at stake in this situation, but maybe you have not heard of human factors, what a pity...

Nock

[10W]

Alternatively Irishpilot, you could take the courtesy of actually reading the thread and find out why the salaries were so high. Assuming you are not just some kind of troll of course (PROB90).

The basic pay isn't anything special in European terms. AENA have made a mess of supplying the correct number of controllers over the years. They had an inefficient roster with controllers doing a lot less hours than what could be deemed reasonable elsewhere. That's not the ATCOs fault. And the only way they could get themselves out of their self created pile of poo was to 'bribe' people to come and do extra shifts. That's not the ATCOs fault.

AENA sought to address the rostering issue by changing everyones terms and conditions in a draconian manner. No negotiation, no phased implementation, just imposition. And even then, when they realised they were still going to be short, they brought in even worse (and dangerous) practices where every staff member was at AENAs beck and call H24. They would decide when you got time off, went on holiday, could be ill, could spend time with the family. And if it suited them, they could move the goalposts whenever they needed to, by 'Royal Decree'.

I doubt even Ryanair pilots would stand for that kind of treatment .... or O'Leary would surely have led the industry and have done it by now.

Where Spanish ATCOs can be criticised is for how they have dealt with the fight, they can't be criticised for standing up against the issues they are fighting. If only UK NATS ATCOs had cojones which were as big ....

The 'work to rule' in terms of service to airline operators was misguided I believe. It acheived nothing, except to make enemies with the customers. AENA certainly were not impacted by it.

The 'wildcat' strike was also an own goal. The strike should most definitely have been held, but should have been notified and organised to give airlines time to put pressure on AENA to resolve the situation. Again, all that's happened is that the ATCOs have made more enemies, when they actually need friends who can influence people.

I just hope that the damage done can be repaired and sight gained of the real issue .... that Spain is going back to the dark days of the Franco years and the ATCOs are just pawns in that process.

[mary meagher]

In view of all the problems in Spain, BA might want to renegotiate that contract to merge with Iberia.....

How long exactly does it take to train up an ATC? where is this training available? If I were a Spanish family I would certainly recommend the career to my offspring - sorry, my son, a career of being a pilot is a non-starter, there are just too many pilots out there already. If your nerves are steady enough, opt for a career of controlling pilots instead!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<How long exactly does it take to train up an ATC? where is this training available?>>

Only a few days..... pull in any kid off the streets, give him a book to read then sit him in front of a radar at Heathrow. Bit like brain surgery really....

[songbird29]

PP wrote:
Its all about killing the Unions, flogging off the family jewels to raise cash, (yet retaining a controlling interest) and keeping the little man under the thumb.

The little man, you say. May controllers with an avarage income of € 300K in a country in economic distress be compared with little men? I don't think so. Better call them privileged men.

I have some understanding for an emotional reaction to the military takeover. But I have more understanding for the necesity of Zapatero c.s. to saveguard the economic interests of his country, in favour of the real little men in Spain. The country cannot afford to see its major industry being paralyzed by a small group who has refused to play down on its privileges.

[Denti]

By the way, as explained on this document, safety really is at stake in this situation, but maybe you have not heard of human factors, what a pity...

THis is a sad joke. As i mentioned in another thread, entering spain airspace in the best of times is a PAN PAN situaiton, exactly because of human factor issues and controller incompetence.

@10W, the new oh so bad conditions of spanish controllers are actually still better than the european norm for pilots. 1670 hours a year? Try 2000 for pilots, and we do reach it every year. Being on call 24/7 365 days a year is the norm for many pilots, days with no call out will be in hindsight relabled to fixed days off at base. Maternity leave, sick leave etc not being part of working time, well, welcome to the real world.

The only part we have that might be better, working time limits can only be changed by the european commission. But that is right now happening as well, and not for the better.

[Nimmer]

Denti,

We are talking about controllers working conditions not pilots. it is well known that controllers are harder working and most definitely more skilled than pilots.

How many planes are you responsible for??? Thats right only one, and there are 2 of you!!!!!!

Enough said.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Denti,

We are talking about controllers working conditions not pilots. it is well known that controllers are harder working and most definitely more skilled than pilots.

How many planes are you responsible for??? Thats right only one, and there are 2 of you!!!!!!

Enough said.

Yes but they keep comparing their 1670 hours to everybody else.

Unfortunately your responsibility does not extend to my aeroplane. That responsibility is completely mine thank you. Your responsibility is to keep two little blips a certain distance apart. Something Spanish ATCOs regularly fail to do. Do you not have assistants and supervisors and another bloke on another headset monitoring you? How many does that make?

How hard is it to take a break every half an hour or when you get stressed. Something which I cannot do. Have you ever done a 20 hour duty? And then had to land, accurately, a 50+ tonne jet on a contaminated runway, in low visibility? No you haven't. Get back to your comfy wheeled chair in your air conditioned building and take another rest.

[Phalconphixer]

Its all about killing the Unions, flogging off the family jewels to raise cash, (yet retaining a controlling interest) and keeping the little man under the thumb.

The little man, you say. May controllers with an avarage income of € 300K in a country in economic distress be compared with little men? I don't think so. Better call them privileged men.

Songbird...Have you read any of the posts posted by the Spanish ATCOs in this thread?
Whilst there may be one or two who reached these high salaries, they did so through long hours of work at premium overtime rates, in order to meet the demands of the service and possibly not from choice. AENA decided to pay premium overtime rather than engage or train new controllers. That was their decision...

Spanish media and CNN+ is giving virtually continuous airplay to the government's spokespeople (Blanco and Rubalcaba) whilst the Union spokesman gets just 50 seconds...

I reiterate...

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and /or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

"It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion."

“Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play.”

pp

[His dudeness]

Vinrouge the funny thing is that its not the IMF knocking on the Irish , Spanish or Portugeese door but dear old Merkel looking to ensure the greedy German banks dont have to write off the loans they made, out of greed . That is the foundation of the problem down here and in Ireland. The best thing we could do for ourselves is tell you guys to shove it and go back to the peseta , punt and Drachma and just devalue like as always was done and leave you holding your precious euro,, its just like a stone around our knecks now

Well done, you spotted the usual suspects. The Germans. Great. Well done.

Maybe you should throw us out of the EU. Coming to think of it, please do so.

I´m sick and tired of financing megalomanian projects in third world countries such as Spain. Go back and breed donkeys or whatever Spain made a living of before the EU.

[belk78]

atceuc.org - Air Traffic Controllers European Unions Coordination (http://www.atceuc.org/)

[Lon More]

From LH2 If they are not controllers they must be supervising;
I have already commented on this. Please read what has been posted if you wish to reply. So, what are they actually doing? Their very presence is intimidating.

I am not in a position to make such a judgement. May I know the basis for your assertion? In ATC most of my career, controller, Training Officer, did a bit of development work, ended up a Supervisor at Maastricht UAC; it's in my profile.
What do you do? Do you actually work in aviation or journalism? Your profile is remarkably vague.

I would feel very concerned however, about having to fly in a sector under control of someone who needs intimidation to go to work. And no, it's not about the stress, it's about the lack of maturity shown by such a person. The former you can deal with, but the latter... Stay out of the airspace. Until this us resolved IFALPA should red flag it and everybody stay away. Nobody NEEDS, or wants, intimidation to go to work and anyone put in that situation will not be providing a safe, expeditious service. The lack of maturity is shown by the persons who have decided to use a sledge-hammer to crack a nut.


I am genuinely interested to hear, Lon, about your experience visiting Spanish control centres and interacting with Spanish ATCOs, Again read my profile. I worked in a multi-national environment, plenty of Spanish to talk to, also French, German, Dutch, Belgian, Greeks, even a couple of Brits so plenty of interaction there. Worked with Spanish Controllers on projects at Bretigny and visited a number of Centres when on Fam. Flights. I was appalled at the working conditions, equipment and salaries back in the 1970s and slowly saw them improve.

His Dudeness wrote Go back and breed donkeys or whatever Spain made a living of before the EU. another helpful comment.
The answer being to provide a training ground for somebody's Condor Legions perhaps?


edited to add - many peoples' perception, including a few here, of a controller still seems to be of the person waving two table tennis bats around. That takes a few weeks training. Even with the pared back training that today's controllers get it still takes in the region of three years from start to finish and IMHO does not produce as good a result.

[paidworker]

His Dudeness, Just as the majority of Germans did not want the euro , the vast majority of people here dont want the IMF, bailout or indeed the euro to stay. There is a hornets nest of contempt and often ignorance sometimes being stirred and directed at the controllers, the banks to whom money is owed just happen to be German Nothing would give the man on the street here greater pleasure than to default on the loans , but since the club is working to ensure that does not happen , Zappo and Blanco are working to make sure the public have a soft target , people like the controllers. Blanco will come to " our rescue " soon I am sure and announce they have sold off a chunk of AENA so that it can be " modernised to ensure that they are never inconvenience again " ..This morning the headline is " Blanco opens disciplinary proceedings against 500 controllers " , one presumes they will be allowed leave their post to attend their hearing ( under armed escort of course in case they are tempted to abscond ) ...he is quoted as saying " now we get to serve justice on these people "..I mean its like stuff that you would hear from Kim IL. :ugh: only the mob applauds.

Irishpilot, there is a reason your location says the " back seat of your car ". :ok:

[BeT]

Paidworker: agree completely.

This whole collaboration of the state against controllers is disgusting - makes me think of some 3rd world country, not bloody Western Europe for Gods sakes.

[transilvana]

Please advise your airlines or operations department, this is not a threat, it´s a reality.

Spain Air traffic controller are working on ACC, APP and tower with a phisically gun aiming at their heads, they have been forced to sign a document where they are forced to be militarizied or face jail immediately, be judged under military rules for sedition . They are working under high stress and security is not guarantee.

This come from very close friends who are ATCO´s, today they already had some problems and as they tell me they can not guarantee it, they have told that to their labour union and military personnel present on towers, ACC and APP centers.

On my company we have decided not to overfly Spain ATC.

[ATC Watcher]

Translvana : First for info you want to say "Safety" not security, but that is a mis-translation from Spanish, "Securidad" is Safety in English in this context, not Security..
now you say :
Spain Air traffic controller are working on ACC, APP and tower with a phisically gun aiming at their heads
Can you tell us what your source is and in which facilities this occurred ? . Our information does not match this.
We are also very much concerned , but want to separate the facts from the rumors. You can PM me as well if you prefer .

[Denti]

the banks to whom money is owed just happen to be German

Care to check your facts? Outstanding bonds are held first and foremost by french banks (around 25%) then by BENELUX banks (around 13,5%) and then by german ones (around 7%). Asia and Africa hold round 19% while the rest of the EU holds around the same as BENELUX. In new bonds this year germany and austria combined only bought around 4,8%, behind spain with 34%, UK with 20,3%, Asia with 13,3%, Nordic countries with 6,2% and France and BENELUX each with 5%.

By the way, that information is from Dirección General del Tesoro y Política Financiera, not some foreign conspiracy theorist.

The answer being to provide a training ground for somebody's Condor Legions perhaps? Not germans anymore, they are in the process of pretty much dismantling their whole military as they have no real need of it, anybody wishing a go at them needs to wade through the whole EU first anyway.

[transilvana]

Safety and Security have the the same meaning in Spanish: "Seguridad"

My source are actual ATCO´s working at Madrid ACC, Sevilla ACC and Barcelona ACC. I have seen myself the military personnel at Malaga Control tower this morning. Futhermore they can not talk as they are treated now as military personnel so military rules apply.

I have seen one ATCO under a nerve crisis with hands shaking and has been forced to stay on his job.

Air traffic controllers are calling the only independant TV on Spain, Intereconomia, to inform of this situation as no other media source is independent from goverment.

Please be advise, level of safety is under minimums.

[paidworker]

Denti on State bonds you must look to who is backstopping Dexia and KBC but it is not just state bonds it is semi private debt from the Cajas that is the real concern since what crippled Ireland is the state backstopping private banks and taking private debt into state custody. Merkel herself wanted to let the AIB bondholders have it untill somebody quietly pointed out to her that the bondholders were her own banks. Best though not to drift the thread pm me if you wish.

[LH2]

So, what are they actually doing? Their very presence is intimidating.

Kindly read the thread, please. They are assisting in the management of ATC centres, as their employer is now responsible for them.

In ATC most of my career,[....]

Yes I know that, which is why I value your opinion, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered asking. I may have misworded my question. What I wanted to know was the basis for your specific assertion that the military officers (Colonels) deployed in the field were "totally unsuited" for the task they were doing (the precise nature of which was not clear to you, I believe)

Stay out of the airspace.

I can do that, but I'm not sure if others will have such a freedom of choice.

The lack of maturity is shown by the persons who have decided to use a sledge-hammer to crack a nut.

So how would you have proceeded then from:

a) The moment you decide you need to reform the system. Say 2007/8 onwards in Spain.

b) The moment where, after you've made every mistake possible, your controllers fail to show up, unannounced, on the most important holiday this side of Christmas? Assume for the sake of argument you did receive a brain transplant and you are suddenly endowed with common sense, intelligence, and all the other qualities you would not normally associate with politicians.

Again read my profile. I worked in a multi-national environment, plenty of Spanish to talk to, also French, German, Dutch, Belgian, Greeks, even a couple of Brits so plenty of interaction there. Worked with Spanish Controllers on projects at Bretigny

Ok, so you worked with a number of Spanish controllers abroad (some of them AENA, some of them Eurocontrol, etc., I imagine?). May I suggest that those controllers who took those assignments were the minority who are actually capable and interested? Note that I am always careful to qualify when I make assertions about the majority of Spanish controllers. I do recognise there are some amongst the lot who are capable and passionate about the job they do (rather than just the money), and I have every sympathy for them on account of the frustrating environment they have to put up with.

So would it be fair to assume that those controllers you've met abroad were likely to come from this group?

and visited a number of Centres when on Fam. Flights. I was appalled at the working conditions, equipment and salaries back in the 1970s and slowly saw them improve.

You were appalled at their working conditions and salaries, and slowly saw them improve? Yes, I believe they had managed to make quite a bit of progress on those :E

And how about their training, competence, and general demeanour? Did you find that comparable to elsewhere in Europe? Would you say those controllers you met at the towers were of the same caliber as those Spanish controllers you worked with elsewhere? I realise you may have met the former for a few hours at most, but nevertheless.

His Dudeness wrote another helpful comment.
The answer being to provide a training ground for somebody's Condor Legions perhaps?

Please allow me to suggest that that comment is out of place, Lon. It does not help your reputation falling for somebody else's cheap provocative incitement--why not let others take the bait.

[Old_Fokker]

transilvana:

"Air traffic controllers are calling the only independant TV on Spain, Intereconomia, to inform of this situation as no other media source is independent from goverment."

You must be joking! Or making stuff up.

There are more independent TV stations in Spain yet they too lay the blame entirely with the ATCO's.

As for Intereconomia, it is a 'catholic conservative' network which openly defends the former dictatorial regime of Francisco Franco, aligns itself with ultra-rightwing groups and parties and is openly against homosexuality (up to the point that they received a € 100,000 fine for openly discriminating against homosexuals during a broadcast earlier this year).

Intereconomia resorts to 'creative editing' of video footage to make others look bad and has been exposed doing so.

Despite Intereconomia's claims to be against corruption, they defend a PP politician accused of corruption (and against who several investigations are still under way) who defends having accumulated loads of money in recent years by claiming that he 'won the Spanish Lottery 4 times in 5 years'.

Spanish ATCO's are really grasping at straws if they believe that ONLY Intereconomia is telling the truth about their situation.

[LH2]

Transil,

If I may, I would like to point out that your information is largely incorrect.

Spain Air traffic controller are working on ACC, APP and tower with a phisically gun aiming at their heads

This, Sir, is a blatant, tendentious lie. I have challenged a Spanish news source to verify the truth of such an assertion--it has since been retracted.

More importantly, it is also deeply disrespectful of the individuals who work for the security forces. While on ideological grounds I may be on opposite poles from the Spanish security institutions, I acknowledge the professionality of their members (in particular the Guardia Civil) and respect them as a result of it, even while engaged in conflict with them. Drawing a weapon and pointing it at an unarmed civilian is, as I hope you can imagine, a major offence punishable by jail, termination of employment, barring from public service, and other severe penalties (not to mention civil action leading to compensation, etc.)

they have been forced to sign a document where they are forced to be militarizied

At least partially true, but I do not have enough information at this point on the exact nature of their engagement.

or face jail immediately, be judged under military rules for sedition

You ATCO friend may be surprised to know that sedition is, in fact, a civilian crime (under Title 544, Spanish penal code) and anybody can be charged with it, regardless of military status. This is judged by civilian courts unless you were in the armed forces at the time the crime has been commited--since the events over which they may in fact be accused of sedition occurred while having civilian status they would be judged by civilian courts. Were they to rebel at this time, yes, I believe then it falls under military jurisdiction (again depending on the nature of their engagement), which is largely similar to civilian courts in its functioning. The crime itself however, is not military in nature.

They are in deep scheisse already anyway, from a legal point of view, with both ex officio and privately initiated court actions from many different angles already in place. I am amazed at the number of laws they appear to have broken, judging from the accusations :E Fortunately for them the Spanish judicial system is probably the most lenient I have seen, so I expect most of them will be let off relatively lightly.

They are working under high stress and security is not guarantee.

I can imagine they would be under stress. You may wish to ask your friend just what did they think would happen? That would certainly be enlightening.

On my company we have decided not to overfly Spain ATC.

That's perhaps a prudent decision to make, but I hope it was not made on the weight of your friend's lies and misapprehensions.

Thank you for sharing nevertheless.

[McNulty]

Well, after just concluding a four sector day out of Barajas which included an internal Spanish flight - I can only say what i witnessed today is a huge improvement on the general day to day muck the controllers there serve up. We were given requested flightlevels, shortcuts, no unnecessary holdings and no non sensical slow speeds. The controllers were polite and it looks like someone has finally taken control of them and put manners on them - long may it continue.

After playing around with Spanish air space like it was a big game to them for the past 18 months, they finally went too far this time and with privatisation on the horizon, this is the beginning of the end of this shambolic group of professionals control over such an important economic resource for the country.

Or at least i hope so.

[LH2]

Spanish ATCO's are really grasping at straws if they believe that ONLY Intereconomia is telling the truth about their situation.

"Grasping at straws"? I believe the expression you're looking for is "dellusional". :eek:

What you have said about Intereconomía is correct.

[LH2]

Can you tell us what your source is and in which facilities this occurred ?

One such statement was made to the press last night by one Javier Zanón, a union leader in the Balearic islands (forgive me, I don't have details as to his exact place of work but I'm sure you can get hold of him through the controllers union). I have questioned this with an independent news outlet, who were unable to corroborate and retracted the assertion.

I hope this helps.

[transilvana]

LH2, let me tell you that no ATCO left his work station at any time as Goverment wants us to beleive. Also military courted martial is completely different from civilian, having been military I know how it works.

This is a democratic country, this is not Venezuela, Iran....If I´m aimed by a military I will also respond with guns, this is no joke.

[Daermon ATC]

Several posts in this thread contain correct and precise information, some just complete rubbish and some of them either insulting o intentionally misleading.

An internet forum at its best, then :ok:

I would just like to add a few facts. I am my own source since I have experienced this directly. I will clearly state so when this is not the case.

- On my workplace there was at least one controller to ensure minimum staffing in case of emergencies, medical flights and such. I have heard from other Atcos that minimum staffing was also maintained at their places.

- I can not guarantee for the percentage of atcos leaving thier posts for medical reasons (let's call it strike for short but I do not concede that point yet) but 90% is clearly propaganda. This is supported by the fact that Aena is opening investigation against less than 500 controllers (about a fifth of the total staff).

- Technically spanish atco's do have a right to strike but in reality that is not true. Last general strike in september the minimum services imposed were over 100%.

This will need some explanation: assuming your unit has a workforce of 10 atcos and 3 of them are usually needed for daily operation; then on a specific day you order 4 atcos to be there. According to Aena this is minimum services of 40%, in my book that's 133%
In any case now that we are military personell I doubt we have the right to go on strike... early Christmas for MOL?

- No military personell has pointed any weapon to any member of my unit in my presence. They do carry them as part of their uniform. They have been professional and absolutely correct in their proceedings. I have not heard otherwise from any other atco I know personally.

[LH2]

LH2, let me tell you that no ATCO left his work station at any time

??? I wonder how that relates to any of my posts. :confused:

This is a democratic country, this is not Venezuela, Iran....

I suggest you might be rather out of your depth there. I certainly won't start debating in this forum the merits or lack thereof of liberal democracy theory or its interpretations or application.

If I´m aimed by a military I will also respond with guns, this is no joke.

Ok, thank you for sharing with us. Is your company also aware of this?

Now you will excuse me if I make use of the board's Ignore facility but I believe you might have already said anything useful you had to say. And then some. :rolleyes:

[LH2]

Several posts in this thread contain correct and precise information, some just complete rubbish and some of them either insulting o intentionally misleading.

An internet forum at its best, then :ok:

Indeed ;)

Just wanted to say thank you for the balanced, factual contribution of your first-hand experience.

[GhostofCain]

Air traffic controllers are calling the only independant TV on Spain, Intereconomia, to inform of this situation as no other media source is independent from goverment.

Are you referring to the same ultra right wing Intereconomia that was broadcasting when I left Spain (for good) 3 months ago?

[Old_Fokker]

Found an interesting article from Francisco Capella, Spanish controller (at least at time of publication of article) who does not agree with the majority of his colleagues.

First some details.

Article published on August 3, 2010 on Libertaddigital.com, a media site for which he regularly writes. Link at end of post.

Francisco Capella, Spanish ATC, has a degree as a physicist in Artificial Intelligence and Knowledge Engineering, and as an economist. Has been an Air Traffic Controller for AENA for the past 11 years. Has worked at Tenerife Sur and Madrid Barajas (where has was an instructor and supervisor). Currently is in the process of instruction in the Route Control Center of Madrid Torrejón.

Note there might be some translation related language issues in text, I've done my best with the help of Google translate.

Excerpts:

"My salaries over the past few years have been slightly above the average that Minister Blanco has spoken about (some € 330,000 per year gross). And my salary was relatively low compared to that of others at Madrid Barajas."

"These high salaries have been achieved by raising the demand for ATCO's and restricting their supply, phenomena not completely outside the scope of the union's pressure nor its ability to do harm by failing to provide an essential service with limited substitutability (unity is strength, especially in a public monopoly like this)."

"The ATCO's themselves almost unilaterally decided how many were needed during each shift in each unit (the reference configurations, with numbers in my opinion inflated and exaggerated because almost always there were too many staff, often sectors were opened which were not strictly necessary and actual hours worked were far from the regulatory limit).Given the limitation of working hours by agreement (1,200 annually) large amounts of overtime were programmed."

"Some Spanish controllers paint a picture of themselves to the public as responsible workers who sacrificed their free time, their family and their health (the famous alleged stress at work) to save overtime and air navigation, tourism and the country: the truth is that they took every opportunity to generate these additional hours and lined up to make them and get paid for them very well. Simultaneously, the union claimed with great cynicism in the public eye for ATCO's, just the opposite of what it really wanted (any economist can explain how the unions are interested in restricting competition to raise their incomes and improve their conditions.)"

"Perhaps because of the economic prosperity, or basically because of threats to stop doing those inflated overtime hours and maybe also to paralyse the formation processes by withdrawing their instructors or to avoid political problems, did ministers and previous management of Aena yield to union pressure. Other measures which were and still are typical of "Go-Slow" strikes during which the rules and procedures (the latter again determined and applied at the discretion of the controllers themselves) as an excuse to slow traffic (air traffic controllers always put a strong emphasis on security , which is constantly invoked and a chance to scare the people, but they can not pressume to be efficient in general). "

"For a long time I warned my colleagues that they were going too far and were creating an unsustainable system, but obviously they took no notice and continued with the excesses and abuses. Then came the economic crisis, reduced air traffic and the change of minister of 'Fomento' and management team in Aena. And more recently the new laws on the provision of air navigation services. Far from practicing a healthy self-criticism, the new management team USCA (Union of Air Traffic Controllers Association) has decided to run forward, proclaimed themselves as enslaved victims and promote the call for a strike. I strongly disagree, and I also am deeply ashamed and outraged by what I saw and heard in recent months in the tower and control room. I have therefore left the USCA union and am considering my future career."Source (http://www.libertaddigital.com/opinion/francisco-capella/huelga-de-controladores-aereos-55769/)

[LH2]

Found an interesting article from Francisco Capella, Spanish controller (at least at time of publication of article) who does not agree with the majority of his colleagues.

Still is (a controller) and still doesn't agree with (the majority?) of his colleagues. At least judging from his most recent commentary (http://www.libertaddigital.com/opinion/francisco-capella/chantaje-descontrolado-57446/) (in Spanish, sorry).

[flameproof]

I have been following the whole situation closely, and monitoring ATC frequencies since Friday afternoon, so I have some observations, and some theories. First, the observations:

1. ATC has been completely arrogant during the whole issue - they simply referred pilots who asked what was going on to a NOTAM. If a pilot complained too much, the controller said he would file a report.

2. For some reason (controllers say it was to maintain safety, I have another theory) one or two controllers stayed in place, either FIR and TWR or TWR alone, with ALL frequencies bandboxed to the single controller.

3. As the FIR controller had to keep at least one sector open to justify his presence, some dispatchers were able to guess an outbound route that could be accepted. The clearance controller... well, THE controller would cancel and reject all flight plans, until a German Wings flight managed to find out that plans going out via OKABI were being accepted. Three flights (two German Wings) managed to get out of Barcelona, until someone told the controller to stop accepting plans even those filed via OKABI.

4. There were two NOTAMS released on the issue, the last one closing the three FIRs due to "lack of ATC", no further info given, out early in the morning, and had an EST up to 12:00h. Eurocontrol was at the same time pushing out AIMs stating FIRs closed until 18:00. There was no other NOTAM out of LEAN during the whole day, only the ones in effect were cancelled when the controllers went back to work, forced by them being placed under military orders.

5. When they went back to work, TMA controllers would deny ALL requests for direct routes or shortcuts, the standard answer to pilots was "There is a procedure, and I cannot deviate from it". With few aircraft around, there was no reason for not allowing things to move along quicker, considering the circumstances.

Now the theories & opinions:

1. Few controllers remained in place not out of safety, but so that the government couldn't claim they acted unsafely and completely abandoned their duties.

2. The controllers were actively disturbing operations, as instead of simply saying: "If you want to get out via France, file via OKABI", they just denied plans and kept operations guessing.

3. When operations resumed, you could feel tension in the voices of the controllers, but not to the point of a female controller that went on TV crying saying that she was the one in best shape inside the center, and that they were working at gunpoint. The military & police simply told the controllers to get back to work or face disciplinary action under military law, which is basically an arrest, and could end up with up to eight years in prison. No guns were drawn whatsoever, the controllers simply chickened out when faced with prison time.

4. The controllers could have done the same after the long weekend holiday (Saturday to Wednesday inclusive), and they would have saved face in front of the public eg. "we held out for the people". Instead, they have turned the public almost 100% against them.

5. There has been close to zero hiring in the ATC sector in Spain for the last few years, some say it is due to pressures from controllers wanting to keep earning huge sums in overtime, and others that the government doesn't want more controllers. The maximum salary of a UK ATCO is some 110k€, whereas the average in Spain is 330k€. With the amount paid in overtime, the government could pay tons of extra controllers, so applying Occam's Razor, it would seem logical to assume the controllers don't want to lose their huge salaries.

It has all been very sad, from both sides acting like children in a playground, I just hope it is all resolved quickly and as painlessly as possible.

[Conspiracy Theories]

hey flame proof.....not wanting to go of the spanish air traffic topic just want to let you know that the point you made at the end of your post isn't entirely accurate.
UK controllers do not earn that much money (110k€). The highest they can earn as controllers is just over 100k€ and not including any supervisory position.
I think on average, in the UK, the average controller is earning a lot less because it takes between 10-14 years to get to the top and this can only be reached by controllers at 2 specific locations only around the UK, the other controllers will not be earning this amount.

i think i have got this right......maybe someone can help me with this?

[flameproof]

You're right - I wrote 'maximum' as regarding UK ATCOs, but 'average' regarding Spanish ones - I have edited and marked 'maximum' in bold, thanks!

[AngeleToR]

Dear fellow pilots and ATCO colleagues,

I'm a spanish ATCO and wanted to shed some light over the last days' chaos.

As we have been telling from february the 5th, the constitutional degradation we are suffering with 3 royal decrees and a law, tailor-suited only for a group of workers and intended to steal the constitutionally required negotiation between a company and his worker's union, the last friday caused what you all have been watching on TV or suffering yourselves.

I'm talking only in my own name, I'm not spokesman for my union nor collective. That said, this friday they 'gifted' us with a royal decree in which we are forced to work up to 1670 'aeronautical' hours per year, that is working or training with live traffic, with no limit about 'non aeronautical' hours. Translated into plain english, it means that the time I spend in my company receiving COMPULSORY formation, is not aeronautical. Neither are the time required for medical examinations, stand-by services not activated, days off because of illness, surgery or attending a parent's funeral, among others.

This year, MANY of us will work over 2000 hours at frequency, with bizarre non-ciclic shifts like afternoon (A from now on), morning and night in the same day (Z from now), AZAZFF (F is for Free), so a couple of shifts could easily be:
AZAZAZFFAZAZAZFF... Sometimes you have a third free day in your roster, but not likely due to heavy understaffing.
OK, so this gives you an idea about ATCOs being tired, you are forced to make this crazy shifts or you get filed (not fired, they can't, the company will 'only' fine you!!!). Procedures changes with no simulation nor training for us, no refresh formation when the winter begins about LVPs or snow procedures in TWRs, p.e., because it is physically impossible to fit it in. We have ORDERS not to give directs, shortcuts or FL other than those in the FPL (would you dare to disobey in this environment??)

Another interesting right we have been stolen is the right to get sick, or to reduce your shifts (and salary accordingly) to take care of your sons, or an unpaired family member depending from you. You can take the days off, for sure, as the law establishes, but you have to return those days off to the company when they tell you!!!! Close your mouths, I couldn't believe it either but it's there written, in the BOE (Official State Bulletin) this friday the 3th.

There are more things I don't want to bore you with, I think that the above is more than enough for anyone to lose its head, even if you're cold like ice, after ten months of continuous harassment from your company and your country's government.

And the funny thing is that the government knew that throwing in our face a new royal decree like that, when our union was 'supposedly' negotiating that very same thing among others with the company, would be like trying to extinguish a fire with gasoline... And they chose the friday, the december's MOST busy day in spanish airports due to a long five day holiday period, to approve it and smash our faces with it... We couldn't take ANY more and just went mad. As you read it, we ATCOs couldn't stand it, started to leave our work and just leaved the TWRs and ACCs...

You have read that all of us went 'mysteriously' sick at the same time, that's true up to certain extent. We ATCOs, as the pilots, have the responsibility to work ONLY if we are in perfect shape, physically and mentally, and we weren't, I'm ashamed to recognize. The strongest of us volunteered to remain in their screens ONLY to give service to emergency, ambulance and state flights, so the airspace has NEVER been completely unattended. Our union representatives (I've been told, this is not first hand info as I haven't talked with them, yet) were taken and ILLEGALLY retained for 'supposed' negotiations, taken apart each other and threatened with prison, impound (or seizing, I don't know the exact translation) of their belongings and even the lose of child custody for those single parents that will get jailed, in favor of state institutions. As I tell, this is what I've been told but I DO trust it, and if it's real, I expect someone very high in our government will have to answer for it.

Right now, we are militarized civilians, working under military orders, in a country under an alarm status, something reserved for cataclysms, wars but NEVER to be used to solve a labour conflict. We only wanted to negotiate, but our government has some hidden agenda and we are theirs useful tool to entertain the masses and distract attention (remember Roma's circus???). Right now I can't even resign from my job.

So please, VERY please, bear with us as we are facing thousands € fines, the possibility to get fired (our smallest concern, right now) and even jail penalties, so our brains are not in their best shape.

Europe ATCOs, please support us spreading the word, look for the truth (outside spanish official press, under government control), talk with people you trust and make your own ideas. Worldwide pilots traveling to/from spain, please don't complain if we request you to hold where you have never had to before, with an apparently low traffic load, we MUST provide safety above all, we're not your enemies, and we're not angry at you, even it may sound so in the frequency. We're under an unbelievable stress and must adhere to the procedures strictly, up to a paranoic point.

If you have read down here, THANK YOU very much for the interest and have a good flight.

[Old_Fokker]

AngeleTor:

tailor-suited only for a group of workersBut weren't your 1999 working conditions not equally tailor-suited, you know, the one which AENA tried time and time again to re-negotiate with your union?

That said, this friday they 'gifted' us with a royal decree in which we are forced to work up to 1670 'aeronautical' hours per year, that is working or training with live traffic, with no limit about 'non aeronautical' hours.That is not entirely true. The decree establishing those 1,670 hours was already approved in February of this year. What really happened is that Spanish ATCO's interpreted some aspects of it differently, particularly regarding how to calculate total worked hours and overtime. As a result of that, UCSA union announced on November 26 that Galicia airspace had to be closed because workers had ran out of hours and that such situations would spread to the rest of Spain in December.

That is why on December the 3rd the government issued another decree clarifying the working time and overtime issues. You can therefore not somehow claim that it all caught you by surprise.

Another interesting right we have been stolen is the right to get sickBull****! Plain and simple.

The only difference is that now you have to get a medical examination by AENA when you report sick or want to leave your job feeling sick. The reason is that many of you, before the massive walkout of a few days back, had on many occasions already used the medical condition excuse and no one longer buys it.

There are more things I don't want to bore you with, I think that the above is more than enough for anyone to lose its head, even if you're cold like ice, after ten months of continuous harassment from your company and your country's government.Given the fact that the former working conditions agreement dates from 1999 and that on multiple occasions since then government/AENA has tried to re-negotiate it, I don't understand how you can say that just the past 10 months have been bad. So what were you doing prior to those 10 months then? Did you guys never go on a real strike before those 10 months? I think you did, always around the time when AENA tried to re-negotiate with you. Imagine how 'harassed' passengers felt every single time you guys had a strike or threatened to go on strike. Get real!

And the funny thing is that the government knew that throwing in our face a new royal decree like that, when our union was 'supposedly' negotiating that very same thing among others with the company, would be like trying to extinguish a fire with gasoline.Sure, but you guys thought you had them 'by their balls' because your silly actions continued while UCSA was re-negotiating with AENA. And for some reasons your strikes were always around either festivities or summer holidays. What a coincidence!

And they chose the friday, the december's MOST busy day in spanish airports due to a long five day holiday period, to approve it and smash our faces with itYou're an ATCO, you're supposed to be able to think ahead. Honestly, if you were totally unable to foresee that the government would issue another decree to clarify the overtime hour issue, of which your union days earlier had said it would affect airspace over the whole of Spain in the month of December, just because you all interpreted the February decree differently then the government, then you must be extremely naive.

We couldn't take ANY more and just went mad. As you read it, we ATCOs couldn't stand it, started to leave our work and just leaved the TWRs and ACCs..So your decision to leave was not directly neither workload- nor safety related but exclusively a matter of an issue with your management then? I dunno but wouldn't it have been better to finish your shift first and not get distracted by other issues? Very unprofessional, if you ask me.

You have read that all of us went 'mysteriously' sick at the same time, that's true up to certain extent. We ATCOs, as the pilots, have the responsibility to work ONLY if we are in perfect shape, physically and mentally, and we weren't, I'm ashamed to recognize.You bloody well should be!

Our union representatives (I've been told, this is not first hand info as I haven't talked with them, yet) were taken and ILLEGALLY retained for 'supposed' negotiations, taken apart each other and threatened with prison, impound (or seizing, I don't know the exact translation) of their belongings and even the lose of child custody for those single parents that will get jailed, in favor of state institutions.Utter nonsense.

What happened is that your union leaders were meeting in a hotel near Barajas Airport, in a conference room since 1300 hours, waiting for the government decree to be approved. When that eventually happened, they very likely informed the ATCO's still on their shifts which then did the walkout. Several hours later, a journalist reported he had seen about a 100 ATCO's at that hotel. At that time, there were still thousands of stranded passengers and the news of your union's cozy meeting spread rapidly. Eventually, the police was ordered to identify all those present at that meeting (ie, those that had called in sick). While the police were there, they also protected many of the ATCO's from being lynched by stranded passengers who had gone from the terminal to the hotel.

Face it, for many years you guys have been in a monopoly position and a very well paid one. Not only were you able to set the rules, you also managed the shifts and you handsomely collected very generous overtime pay, which included all the extras usually left out of it. Every single time government/AENA tried to negotiate with you, you'd start with threads of strikes, usually around June/July.

And then came the economic crisis which hit all in this country very hard! But you all acted as if the crisis had somehow nothing to do with you. The government needed to take drastic measures. The writing was on the wall. But you were apparently too busy watching your screens doing overtime that you failed to see it. You thought you could keep bullying AENA and passengers during 2010 with your strike threads and sudden leaves for medical reasons which surprise, surprise, always happened when AENA had started a new round of talks with your union. 'No, the crisis is for normal people, not for us' you must have thought.

You lot committed collective suicide last Friday and now you come here asking for pity. Perhaps you should have visited these boards much earlier and see what other professionals actually thought of you and the quality of your work. It could perhaps have saved you a lot of embarrassment.

The above notwithstanding, I do wish you good luck and, above all, wisdom.

[max1]

Old Fokker

Who are you exactly? You seem to portray yourself as a working pilot.
You seem to have a lot of information that appears to be gleened from media and government sources. Have you thought of a career in PR for AENA or the Spanish government, or are you already in that role?

[AngeleToR]

Old Fokker,

Our working conditions, of course, are the best that we could NEGOTIATE with the company, isn't that the point of every negotiation??

The hours accounting in the last decree is unbelievable, and of course that I can get sick, but the days it takes me to recover will be returned to the company when they feel it fits them. The same applies if I need two days for a funeral, or 4 days if my son gets ill, I will take them (may the service needs allows it, as it says in every paragraph).

What you call strikes during this summer, last Holy Week or 2009 Christmas, I call them understaffing to create chaos to point us as cruel people enjoying to screw people holidays. Why would we drag people's attention to the fact that 2009's Christmas would be 'complicated' the least, in 2009 October??? In spain we are told by the mass media that we 'menace', but we were forecasting understaffing, but AENA didn't corrected it to force chaos, and the union pages show it with dates.

Closing the airspace this friday has been a government master maneuver, I must recognize. We've been pointing out the problem with hours accounting from the summer, and it's easy to prove too, just get to www.usca.es and take a look. So if they know the problem since summer, the partial LECG shutdowns began two weeks ago, but that problem will not worsen until the end of this week, why the government publish the decree that friday instead of the week before, or the week after???? Because they wanted chaos, millions of angry passenger shouting for our blood, and clapping when we get militarized and menaced. By the way, along with our decree, our weak government also approved in the same act several other decrees, where they stop giving a 460€ aid to long-term unemployed, or declare to modify the maximum working age from 65 to 67 (remember France???), all of them VERY unpopular measures, but nobody has said a word about it, I'm sure that the people don't even know it. So, we were set a trap, and we bite the cheese like hungry mice...
You can bet that we were sick, up to the point to stop working in the most orderly way it could be arranged to minimize safety risks. We aren't better right now, we are WORSE than then, but may I dare to not follow orders (remember I've been militarized) and I should better be dying so it can be perfectly measured with medical parameters. AENA can assess our medical physical condition, but there are no psychiatric nor psychologic assessment, the main component in our job, and we are taken as liars before opening our mouths. I've seen not only women breaking down and crying, but big guys in nervous crisis going to the hospital in ambulances under sedation. If you feel safe flying with ATCOs in those conditions, you're so brave or a kamikaze.

We were told friday morning about the decree, we received a leaked copy late that morning, and everyone not working met in a hotel nearby. Our union leaders received an official copy from the company management at 13:00 approx. and went to the media to ask for our cooperation and not to do any 'madness'... Obviously they got too late, the damage was already done...

You say I lay, I say I don't. Up to the reader to decide between both versions, or even better, read more versions and histories and make your own mind.

Kind regards and don't fly without TCAS, my friends.

[AngeleToR]

max1, you hit the nail my friend :D

My english skills won't allow me to say it so clearly and politely.

Thanks my friend, for your comprehension.

Best regards

[paidworker]

Old Fokker

"
Face it, for many years you guys have been in a monopoly position and a very well paid one. Not only were you able to set the rules, you also managed the shifts and you handsomely collected very generous overtime pay, which included all the extras usually left out of it. Every single time government/AENA tried to negotiate with you, you'd start with threads of strikes, usually around June/July.
"

What is wrong with that? I would call it good brinksmanship myself. The opposite of it is pay to control.

The notion that the guardia civil were not "polite" is one I can easily believe, they deal with shouting football fans with horse and baton ( beating football fans is a sport to them ) and would have not problem in getting a little "rough." .. This was all planned and sadly the controllers have fallen into the trap but I can understand how its happened entirely. While I understand the need for public sector reform in Spain , I do not for one minute tolerate the way it is being done , its Draconian and voices are emerging that its illegal. Zapaterro did not go to the Iberamerica conference because he " knew " this was coming. I dont think it takes a whole lot of latitude to understand or read that there has been a whole lot of pressure leading up to this moment. Disgusting. As an expat I find this country very strange. A friend of mine who works for the state was inconvenienced on Friday by the strike , I said to him, is your job really " important " ... will your " contract " be honoured .. what if it is you next..what if the people who make the rules dont play by the rules.. after he started to think about it he changed his tune. I think that is being very missed in all of this although Elmundo today had the courage to question whether what was being done is legal or ethiccal. Sadly though Rahoy is an equally large muppet and this is only the beginning.

[Cernicalo]

Why this thread has been moved, once the Spanish ATC has become militar?

This is, maybe, not to important, to be in the principal, where this thread has been placed, due that directs where not issued?

Something is smelling quite bad around here...

[Nock]

Why this thread has been moved, once the Spanish ATC has become militar?

This is, maybe, not to important, to be in the principal, where this thread has been placed, due that directs where not issued?

Something is smelling quite bad around here... Well it appears that the thread has been transfered into this one which make the discussion completely unintelligible in some parts. The reason? I can't find one.
Strange thing indeed...

by the way good luck dear southern colleagues!
http://www.sncta.fr/fic_bdd/magazine_fr_fichier/12915025301_compresseSNCTA.pdf
http://www.sncta.fr/fic_bdd/magazine_fr_fichier/12914719961_CDA_601.pdf
http://www.icna.fr/publication/bn_06dec10_le_gouvernement_espagnol_vient_de_pousser_l_aena_ dans_le_precipice.pdf

Nock

[max1]

Old Fokker

What is your opinion of AENA management?
I have not been online for a few days and so was able to read through the last 200 odd posts in one sitting, I am interested on your take of what you believe has been going on, and why?
What has happened in the last few days has its genesis in the last 11 years, rather than the last few days. Why would a government/ANSP put out this latest Royal Decree when they did, why not wait until after this important public holiday period?
There is a huge whiff of Catch 22 here. To enlighten those unfamiliar, it is a book set in WW2 by Joseph Hellier . The basic premise was that the CO set a target number of missions to be flown before being repatriated, as the target was about to be reached the number was increased. This led to a dysfunctional group who had a damned if you do, damned if you don't attitude.
Really not conducive to an ANSP.

[uniform]

AngeleToR, months ago I wrote on this forum that the hostage of passengers and airlines is not the right technique to get what you want. If you guys could have only be smart enough to understand that to put pressure on your government you had to get support from the public. Politicians don't listen to you unless they are afraid of loosing votes. The only thing you have reached with your action now is that the last ones who supported you have turned their backs on you and the government have gained lots of votes over the weekend. Although I understand the situation you are going through is very severe and should not be accepted by anyone but since 1,5 years the only thing you ATCO's have done is behaving like arrogant, overpaid childeren by playing games with the lives of millions of people and making our lives as pilots as misserable as possible. To quote one of your colleagues not so long ago in this topic 'I don't care about the lives of passengers or pilots' end quote. Now you have put yourself in a situation where you clearly cannot handle it alone and start crying for the support of pilots, airlines and passengers which you have spit on for years. It's just another sad day for Spanish tourism and given the state the economy is in in your country a very stupid act on your behalf. Good luck though and I sincerely hope you all get your lives back soon although some of you don't care about ours....

[garp]

Uniform is pretty much on the ball. We haven't seen the end of this quite yet.

[flameproof]

To put things into perspective, I'm of Spanish nationality, and spent a few years in the UK studying, including a degree in Aeronautical Engineering. While I was there, I also got my Private Pilot's License, and even did some supervised practice at a small airfield's control tower as part of a work experience program. My level of English is native, also in the aviation/aeronautics field.

When I came back to Spain, I looked into becoming an ATCO, and talked to a cousin's then-boyfriend, a military controller. His point was very clear and straight: unless I "knew" someone inside the ATC system, I stood no chance, as the union controlled the admissions process and could filter and reject at will.

This tied closely with what I had been told by the son of a fleet commander at Iberia who was doing the degree with me (who knew he would get 'plugged in' as soon as he returned into a nice job in the aeronautical industry) - that in the ATC sector you needed a 'godfather' to get you through the door, otherwise you'd be wasting your time.

I can imagine that maybe some people do study and make the grade on their own, but the odds seemed to be stacked against so much, it wasn't worth the attempt. With that, I was left listening to ATCOs with barely good enough English talking to aircraft, and myself giving aeronautical English lessons to student pilots to complement my salary.

Last night, I was reading through the 1999 agreement between the USCA, the ATCO union, and AENA, the employer. In short:

1. The ATCO agreement has complete independence from all other AENA workers, which is completely against the norm in Spain, where there is one agreement for all workers at a company.

2. Under "very serious faults" in Article 11, is listed:

"1.2 Insubordination, individual or collective"
and
"1.6 Abandoning the service, understood as leaving the assigned mission, causing serious prejudice to persons or things."

One of the consequences of these actions can be "Despido", or firing. I don't know how many controllers left with justification, but it doesn't appear to be many - over 400 disciplinary actions have been started by AENA.

3. ATCOs have three years of 'voluntary leave' in order to take care of a child, when all workers in Spain are given four to six months. This time is taken into account when computing salaries as if it had been worked.

4. There is a 'permanent commission' made up of AENA and USCA personnel, which is who decides on many aspects of the agreement such as assignment of working hours, shifts, holidays, leaves, training and so on. Thus, it is not the employer who decides who to hire or how to train people, but it must count with the approval of the union.

5. The agreement automatically renews, so all the union has to do to keep it active is force AENA to stop negotiating a new and revised agreement.

It is certainly odd that so many ATCOs suddenly left their post after the government published the new decree clarifying the working hours issue. It is also curious that the government had also decided to privatize up to 49% of AENA, which would no doubt put an end to the union's reign over their own workspace.

Let's apply a simple principle, Occam's Razor, which states:

"The simplest explanation is more likely the correct one".

We have on one hand a strong union, with 99% of workers affiliated to it, in a sector of critical strategic importance to a nation, and capable of inflicting huge losses. These workers, while working many hours a year, earn an average of 330.000€ a year. Some make over 600.000€, and a few are close to 1 million Euros a year. They claim to be overworked and overstressed, and they periodically setup hidden strikes (all of you who are pilots know this, being denied direct routes, shortcuts, made wait for ages at the threshold while other aircraft land one every few minutes, all aircraft suddenly taking on the "heavy" qualification...). These strikes take place at the time when negotiations with their employer take place, and always at the start and/or during busy holiday periods.

On the other hand, we have a government that is paying 2400 controllers an average salary of 330.000€ a year (that is 792 million Euros a year!) through its public company AENA. This government is, in theory, in charge of recruiting and training new ATCOs. Let's say it decided to pay 100.000€ per year as a maximum, which is the maximum wage for UK ATCOs, a country with much higher living costs. Now, it could afford to hire 7900 controllers. This would be a 3.3x increase, and thus would relax current ATCOs who could live nice, stress-less lives with fewer working hours.

Apply Occam's razor to the above, and tell me, leaving politics aside, what makes more sense. That the government doesn't want to hire more controllers but keep paying huge sums to keep a bunch of them on the brink of nervous breakdown and on the verge of hidden strikes on a periodic basis, or that the controllers are earning such huge sums that they don't want more people hired, as it would make them lose money and power?

[transilvana]

Let me explain to all of you, read carefully and think why

I´m following very close this matter, although we are all sticking to the controller matter in this case the real problem is why did goverment issued a "Real Decreto" on Friday. Let me resume on "THIS IS ANOTHER POLITICAL DISTRACTION MANEUVER FROM THE SOCIALISTS".

Goverment knew that this was going to happen weeks in advance but they were going to use this situation on his own benefit.

On friday, among others, where approved by "Real Decreto" some important laws that will affect directly the spanish economy and the way of life os spanish society. These laws where the reduction and freezing of the spanish pension scheme affecting 14.000.000 people, the elimination of the unemployment finnancial aid on february for 2.000.000 unemployed spanish and most important, increasin the price on fuels and tobaccos, the privatation of the 2 most important airports in Spain, Madrid and Barcelona, and privatation of the Spanish Lottery.

Ok, last one was the "Real decreto" affecting ATCO´s.

Knowing that ATCO´s will respond to this as they did, and they are now, the focus of the media and the spanish population would not focus on the real problem, the spanish economy. Furthermore, the most import issue is that Zapatero and his goverment should resign and call for new elections but issuing and State of Alarm, which now they want to prorrogate 2 months, the rest of the political parties now can´t disolve the goverment. But, there is more. There are municipal elections in April-May next year, under constitution you need 3 months separation between elections so you can´t call for national elections so you can´t disolve the parlament

And the most important, if Zapatero wants to keep his salary for his all life paid by the spanish he must be on the goverment for 7 years, and when is that? Correct, April-May 2011!!!!!


Now think... you guys out from Spain and not knowing the issues on the country don´t know about this but the last 4 years have always been the same, everytime there was an important matter to solve Zapatero would come with some distraction maneuver.

[Lon More]

This thread is rapidly going nowhere with people popping up, on both sides, with almost zero background on PPRuNe, purporting to be the only ones with the definitive point of view.

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.

*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".


In R&N it would have been closed several pages back; maybe time for the Mods to step in?

[flameproof]

This thread is rapidly going nowhere with people popping up, on both sides, with almost zero background on PPRuNe, purporting to be the only ones with the definitive point of view.

I never realized that to participate in certain threads in a forum - any forum - it was a pre-requisite to have "background", not in the topic, but as a forum user. It seems obvious that a controversial topic will bring new users to a forum.

Your position is wrong, even as the thread may indeed be spiraling into a flat spin, it doesn't mean that people, some who may be even more knowledgeable than you, cannot contribute.

I'm not talking about myself, as I'm neither ATCO nor full-time pilot, but I happen to live close to a major control center, during one of the worst crisis the Spanish ATC system has experienced, and I happened to listen to the 'action' with my own ears, so I'm probably better qualified than others to shed some light into the topic, regardless of their forum background.

In any case, I mostly agree with you in that the subject has been well trodden, and the thread could be closed already.

[paidworker]

Flameproof, here in Ocana ( LEOC) there is the son of a farmer from Badajoz with no "connections" who spent years studying for the entrance exams and was accepted. 100k at the height of ones career as an air traffic controller, cant imagine for the pressure its a fitting salary. And yes Transilvana, I agree that for some time the controllers have been attempting to negotiate with people who did not want things resolved.

[flameproof]

Yes, please note that I said:

I can imagine that maybe some people do study and make the grade on their own

but a cynic could say you provide the exception that confirms the rule. If there are no buddies to 'plug in', or there are places left when they have been, others can get in too of course. What I said is that the risk of wasting years of study and preparation were too high.

[fireflybob]

Can anyone tell me in (very) simple language (preferably English) what this dispute is really about?

I can't believe that anyone in a profession such as air traffic go one strike en masse unless something is seriously wrong!

So what is it that's the problem?

[LH2]

In addition to the detailed reply from Old Fokker:

in a country under an alarm status, something reserved for cataclysms, wars but NEVER to be used to solve a labour conflict

First of all FYI, it's called a "state of alert", an alarm status having an entirely different meaning.

Secondly, you are completely wrong. I suggest you go and read up on your own laws (which you were supposedly examined on, as a member of the civil service). A few pages back on this thread I gave a fairly detailed analysis of the legal grounding of the situation.

we are facing thousands € fines, the possibility to get fired (our smallest concern, right now) and even jail penalties

Cry me a river, baby. :{ :{ :cool:

[LH2]

Lon,


In R&N it would have been closed several pages back; maybe time for the Mods to step in?

I am very disappointed that you wrote this. You're not liking what you're reading, therefore it shouldn't be here? As has been said before, what matters is the value of the information provided in its own right, not who's supplying it. With caveats, I grant you, but this thread so far seems to have a fairly decent S/N ratio compared to many on Rumours and News, IMHO.

[LH2]

Bob,

Can anyone tell me in (very) simple language (preferably English) what this dispute is really about?

this is probably as good a summary as you're going to get, from an insider's point of view (kindly translated by Old Fokker):

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416995-spanish-atc-47.html#post6104455

[Del Prado]

Am I right in thinking pilots flying time is limited to 900 hours a year?

If so how would pilots react if having reached 900 hours by November they were then told they'd have to work an extra 80 hours for no extra pay?

Or am I being over simplistic?

[BeT]

@ Firefly Bob: as far as I understand it (as a controller but not from Spain).

-For several years a proportion of Spanish ATCOs 'took the piss' a little bit with the rostering rules meaning that they gained some extra-ordinary salaries through non-contracted over-time. IMO they were on slightly dodgy ground as rosters and manning was specifically arranged so that the max. overtime payments could be reached.

-For a long time AENA were happy enough with this as paying o/time was on the whole cheaper than training new controllers.

-AENA invested much €€€ in the expansion/modernisation of airports all round Spain and for whatever reason are now massively in the red.

-This is combined with an overall economic/traffic downturn, coupled with a government facing an ever-maddening population and new ministers/managers with a point to prove.

-Somebody, somewhere has correlated the massive losses of AENA with the substantial ATCO salaries and this has been leaked to the press who have ran with it. In reality the ATCO salaries are a bit of a drop in the ocean.

-New laws 'decrees' (or whatever they be called) have been pushed through meaning ATCOs are having to 'work' longer hours - or the 'overtime' has been made mandatory working time with the associated loss of salary. However the new mandatory hrs arent substantially different from what any ATCO in the EU can expect to work (as far as I can tell).

-Spanish ATCOs upset with the above new hrs entered into discussion with AENA in order to negotiate a better resolution from the ATCO point of view.
(plus doubtless lots of other issues)

-Jump forward to December and AENA is in a spot of bother as they realise that the new legal hours leave most of the workforce legally unable to work in December.

-New decree pushed through scrapping previous legal limit and 'forcing' ATCOs to work extra hours.

-ATCOs not happy and do a mass 'sickie' to prove their point.

-Government militarise ATC operations and force ATCOs back to work under the threat of arrest and imprisonment.

-Public and press jump all over issue as they do a sickie on one of the busiest weekends of the year.

-Government see potential easy political gain.

-Present situation arrived at.

Situation not helped amongst 'professional' community as Spanish ATC seen as a bit of a joke - not necessarily fair, but usually no smoke without fire.


Thats my take on it anyway.

And my final 2p worth is that the Spanish Government are going to do a 'Reagan' and will end up firing everybody and re-hire on new contracts.

[calcagafo]

this is probably as good a summary as you're going to get, from an insider's point of view (kindly translated by Old Fokker):

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416...ml#post6104455 (http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416995-spanish-atc-47.html#post6104455)


The only problem is:

that insider is not an ATCO anymore, not long before he wrote that, he misteriously got promoted to a nice office with a considerable pay raise.....

[calcagafo]

Still is (a controller) and still doesn't agree with (the majority?) of his colleagues. At least judging from his most recent commentary (http://www.libertaddigital.com/opinion/francisco-capella/chantaje-descontrolado-57446/) (in Spanish, sorry).


There´s a difference between having a licence and being an ATCO, he has not talked to any pilot for a very long time.

In Spain, Rome DOES pay traitors...

[calcagafo]

Still is (a controller) and still doesn't agree with (the majority?) of his colleagues. At least judging from his most recent commentary (http://www.libertaddigital.com/opinion/francisco-capella/chantaje-descontrolado-57446/) (in Spanish, sorry). Isn´t it amazing that only one out of 2000 ATCOs is suddenly ashamed of what he claims he did?

the other 1999 are just soulless demons out of hell craving for more money....

[Old_Fokker]

max1

Who are you exactly? You seem to portray yourself as a working pilot.
You seem to have a lot of information that appears to be gleened from media and government sources. Have you thought of a career in PR for AENA or the Spanish government, or are you already in that role?As I have stated earlier on this forum in other threads, I am neither a pilot nor anything remotely aviation related. As my nick suggests, I am a Dutchman and have been living in Spain for the past 25 years.

I rarely participate on these forums, except in those cases where topics are discussed which are not of a pure technical aviation nature, such as this case, and where I believe I can contribute positively given my location, knowledge of the Spanish and Dutch language and, as in this case, the backgrounds of a particular issue.

What has happened in the last few days has its genesis in the last 11 years, rather than the last few days. Why would a government/ANSP put out this latest Royal Decree when they did, why not wait until after this important public holiday period?I described that extensively in earlier posts which apparently you have not read. ATCO's, via their union, threatened that much of Spain's airspace would have to be closed in December due to ATCO's reaching the maximum of their working hours, and which was already the issue at some local places such as Galicia. The dispute here is the difference of interpretation over what are working hours/overtime by the two parties involved. ATCO's knew all along that AENA did not accept their particular interpretation but followed it nevertheless. Climax was reached when the ATCO's union put out their November 29 press release, 4 days before the December 3rd decree, stating that similar situations were to be expected for the whole of Spain in December. That is why the December 3rd decree was issued so urgently, just 4 days after USCA union's press-release.

paidworker:

The notion that the guardia civil were not "polite" is one I can easily believe, they deal with shouting football fans with horse and baton ( beating football fans is a sport to them ) and would have not problem in getting a little "rough." ..The Guardia Civil does not deal with football fans, the Policia Nacional (the so called 'anti-disturbios') usually does. See how some local knowledge can come in handy to avoid prejudice?

This was all planned...The facts don't back you up.
In July the Government approves a decree in which the new working hours are established at 1,670 + 80 overtime hours.
At the end of November UCSA union says that Galicia airspace will have to be closed due to ATC running out of working hours and that this will very likely spread to the rest of Spain in December. And this is all due to UCSA interpreting the July decree differently, particularly regarding what can and cannot be considered as extra time.
As a result of that, on December 3rd the government issues a new decree clarifying the overtime issue.There clearly is a direct relation between the union's threads regarding the closing of Spain's airspace in December and the government approving a new decree on December the 3rd. The latter was not planned, it was a reaction to the union's thread.

AngeleTor:

So if they know the problem since summer, the partial LECG shutdowns began two weeks ago, but that problem will not worsen until the end of this week, why the government publish the decree that friday instead of the week before, or the week after????Because your union persisted in its own interpretation of the July decree regarding working hours and overtime and had already started acting in accordance to that interpretation in Galicia, despite the government/AENA's multiple warnings that that interpretation was not valid nor legal. What's more, in the November 29 union Press Release they stated that similar situations were to be expected for the rest of Spain in December.

There's just 4 days between that union press release and the government approving a new decree clarifying the working time/overtime issue which, for Spain, is remarkably fast.

By the way, along with our decree, our weak government also approved in the same act several other decrees, where they stop giving a 460€ aid to long-term unemployed, or declare to modify the maximum working age from 65 to 67 (remember France???), all of them VERY unpopular measures, but nobody has said a word about it, I'm sure that the people don't even know it. So, we were set a trap, and we bite the cheese like hungry mice...Yes, those measures are very unpopular indeed but it is simply not true that no one has said a word about it. It certainly has been covered extensively in the Spanish press lately because that is how I found out about it. Please don't make this appear as if 'the government' is picking on you publicly to pass through other unpopular measures while no one is paying attention. That's a very weak argument to defend your case.

max1:


What has happened in the last few days has its genesis in the last 11 years, rather than the last few days. Why would a government/ANSP put out this latest Royal Decree when they did, why not wait until after this important public holiday period?I stated this before in earlier posts and so have others. My take on the whole situation is that the ATCO's simply overplayed their cards. Not only the last few days but also the months and even years leading up to it. In this regard, the opinion of the non unionized Spanish ATCO Francisco Capella as put forth in a August 2010 article by him (see earlier post from me with excerpts) can be enlightening:

"For a long I warned my colleagues that they were going too far and were creating an unsustainable system, but obviously they never listened and continued the excesses and abuses." [Source (http://www.libertaddigital.com/opinion/francisco-capella/huelga-de-controladores-aereos-55769/)](Mr Capello published a new article on this whole situation just a few days ago. I will translate it and post it here later).

Transilvana:

Knowing that ATCO´s will respond to this as they did,...Let me clarify this: you argue that the government knew beforehand that ATCO's would resort to illegal actions once the decree was approved but did so nonetheless? If so, you really are delusional.

Furthermore, the most import issue is that Zapatero and his goverment should resign and call for new elections but issuing and State of Alarm, which now they want to prorrogate 2 months, the rest of the political parties now can´t disolve the goverment. But, there is more. There are municipal elections in April-May next year, under constitution you need 3 months separation between elections so you can´t call for national elections so you can´t disolve the parlamentYou appear to be completely unaware that even Spain's opposition parties are largely behind how 'the socialists' handled this issue.

And the most important, if Zapatero wants to keep his salary for his all life paid by the spanish he must be on the goverment for 7 years, and when is that? Correct, April-May 2011!!!!!You are not doing your ATCO friends' case a favour by posting such nonsense, you know?

Now think... you guys out from Spain and not knowing the issues on the country don´t know about this but the last 4 years have always been the same, everytime there was an important matter to solve Zapatero would come with some distraction maneuver. Well I've been here in Spain the past 25 years and I've not seen any of what you claim. I do remember though one little guy with a moustache blaming ETA for something al-Qaeda had clearly done, 2 days prior to some general elections. But I guess that doesn't count as a 'distraction maneuver' for you.

[Blockla]

And my final 2p worth is that the Spanish Government are going to do a 'Reagan' and will end up firing everybody and re-hire on new contracts. There is no need for them to do this, currently the Royal Decrees unilaterally alter the previous agreements, the employees can currently not even resign at the moment.

The previous collective agreement was just that, an agreement, between AENA and employees. The exorbitant salaries achieved by some Spanish ATCs was the justification for the action taken but not the cause of the problem. The cause of the high salaries was/is the chronic understaffing which resulted in massive overtime needed, (horse or cart?)... The staffing problem has been reduced by imposing effectively an extra 500 hours per annum per employee, but is still far from resolved; there is still a staffing crisis.

The 1st Royal Decree amended various 'employment entitlements'. The decree imposed changes to normal working practices; particularly relating to working hours, timetable, shift work, salary system, work and productivity system, and duties.

The second Royal Decree further amended these entitlements.

The 3rd Royal Decree was necessary due to the 'maximum annual allowed hours' contained in either the 2nd or 1st decree as a protection to the controllers was going to be exhausted only 10 months after the first Decree.

The timing of the 3rd Decree (along with it's contents) was the catalyst for the action taken; regardless of what day it was. It further amended working hours and all sorts of leave entitlements including sick-leave.

Whilst it has been stated in multiple places that the action taken was a "sick out" I ask how many reasonable men/women would not actually feel sick/stressed/whatever after the year the Spanish ATCs have endured, IMHO, the latest attack on employment conditions was the straw that broke the camels back. I wouldn't have been in the right mental place to go to work in such circumstances I'm sure of that.

None of the content of any of the Royal Decrees have been negotiated but simply imposed. What is stopping the 4th, 5th, 6th Decree etc.? What hope have the Spanish ATCs got at getting a 'fair deal' now. Sure what they had before was great, but not so since Feb 2010. What is the legality of these decrees, they may yet prove in law to be unconstitutional and thus illegal.

It matters not what the conditions of employment were, it matters what they now are. The concept of effectively no sick leave entitlements and constant changes to working conditions is not something I would want imposed on me and if you think about it logically you too wouldn't want it either.

For those that have stated they should all just quit, well it's now not a valid option, it's potentially and act of treason. But at the same time what is the realistic option, fight for your rights while employed or after resignation? What other employment options are in the Spanish economy at present?

Whether or not you are happy with the service Spanish ATC provide or have a view on the current economic conditions in Spain; it certainly is not the fault of Spanish ATC. They had a contract they worked to it. The employer with government sponsorship removed the conditions (3 times now) with no guarantees they won't do it again.

Additionally I'd argue it's not the fault of Spanish ATCs in relation to the perceptions of a 'crap service' they have been chronically short of staff for more than a decade... It's been bad, it may get worse yet?

The whole thing IMHO is very very sad and an inditement upon citizens rights from a supposed modern first world country.

[paidworker]

Its unlikely the Reagan tactic will be employed here because its not straight forward for the administration here. They are so organised that the relatively few military controllers who " were " qualified to do the job all let their ratings lapse on the 16th of October, because there was bickering in house about whether they would even be able to do the job anyway.. so apart from any localized procedures training that might be needed they apparently need to recertify in the civilian sense. The press / mob is also not calling for this as there is a memory of the loss of spanish aircraft in miltary controlled france and a recognition that all the controllers cant be sacked as most of them would probably not seek reemployment especially if they saved over the last years. Source El Mundo.

Also according to elmundo a royal decree reduced without agreement the salary of Spanish air traffic controllers to 200K ( euro )average in Feb of this year, at the same time it was made more difficult for workers to strike , with minimum staffing levels essentially comprising of a full shift. I could not find information relating to an increase in their hours in that decree but I gather there was an increase, an increase it seems was not in effect enough given the staff levels. The Union was signalling the shortfall so the latest decree clarified in favour of the administration what exactly constituted an hour worked to make up the hours requirement.

According to El Mundo , ( which is heavily critical of the manner in which ATCOs handled the situation but respects or asserts that it was strategically engineered by the administration ..this is the chief line of attack of the PP, spains opposition party who will get in at the next election so at least somebody is not baying for blood down here) AENA itself was denied funding for training more ATCOs , it apparently is very expensive and the Unions had been pushing for it. The administrations position was that they should accept drastically increased hours for further cuts in pay.

[LH2]

The exorbitant salaries achieved by some Spanish ATCs was the justification for the action taken but not the cause of the problem. The cause of the high salaries was/is the chronic understaffing which resulted in massive overtime needed, (horse or cart?)...

It would be awfully nice if people would ensure that a) they have read at least the last few day's worth of posts to avoid going round in circles (it's basic politeness), b) if possible have at least some background knowledge of the issue under discussion, and c) have something new to contribute.

The chronic understaffing issue has been discussed here before. It has been known for a long time by those of us with local knowledge that this situation was created by the controllers union itself, and we now learn that it had been made public in writing months ago (and quite possibly in other occasions prior as well).

That an unsustainable situation lasted for so long can probably be attributed to the successive governments lack of will to deal with it. It has now befallen on the current government to get its hands dirty, but I doubt it was through their own choice.

As for claims of lack of negotiation, AENA has long been a heaven for abusive unions (the controller's being perhaps the most expensive, but far from the only one). Negotiations had been held for years, and always met with the same intransigence on the union's side. But you can only pull that stunt so far.

As for salaries having been reduced from astronomic to well above Spanish average, so what? The government is the client so they decide how much they're willing to pay for the service being provided (which was ****e anyway). And when one of you (privately I know there were more, but at least one is in print) says you have gone too far and are being unreasonable, the syndicalists and minions amongst you label him "a traitor". Sure, never mind that you are hacking the golden goose to bits, and that your fellow citizens' opinions of you start at "bunch of selfish gits" and goes well downhill from there, to the point that you need police protection to avoid being lynched (allegedly).

In the meanwhile, I hear that the traffic situation over Spain has improved considerably compared to the last couple of months. As someone suggested, after all maybe they should park a couple of "lecheras (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/138/343847306_cf5dab0be0_z.jpg?zz=1)" down by the tower to keep the lads motivated :E

[megustalavida]

@ AngeleTOR

As a professional pilot you have my full support and :D sympathy fighting for your conditions at work. And I am ashamed of what kind of response you earn of some of my "colleagues". The pilots profession is going down by year and year, especially, because there is no solidarity belong us. I am also ashamed towards some pilots attitude towards you, but hey, they are only victims in their system which is going in the wrong direction. Every penny (and i dont choose the word cent!) must be saved and the operation is so much focussed on economy. Save the penny, loose the pound. Thats is very often the case.

I am quite sure, that the most complaining people are the one who are flying to Spain with barely minimum fuel reserves in order to save some "pennies" on extra fuel and then gets stressed if the plan does not work for them as they expect. But hey, thats also our job to keep the operation safe and simple and to know, what it is to like to operate into Spanish airspace and that it is not like northern part of Europe. Especially when it comes to abnormals.

Even said so, there are countries whoch are much much worse ... :p So everything is relative :)

Flying in and out of Spain for more than 10year for myself i had always the support needed and felt comfortable flying in the airspace. Of course sometimes it doesnt get well, but then you do the job you are paid for.

Ok, i have to admit that i dont care a lot about direct routing unless it is offered from your side of course :ok: ... and i usually i fly my atc filed flight plan (expept wx consideration) and dont files 290 to avoid a slot and then ask for higher later.

If we pilots would have had only the half of your solidarity and balls which you are showing, our conditions would not have fallen down by to year.

The world is more and more ruled by greedy profit managers, with no values. If an ATC controler earn 300.000eur a year, so it be. Thats what a average pilot did earn 30 years ago :)

Coming back with this ridiculus military ruling - ordering reminds me a bit of Franco style way, which i was hoping that Spain had left behind in his history.

Good luck to all of you!!:ok:

- pls ignore english spelling or grammer mistakes as it is not my mother tongue (but hey i can speak 3 other languages better :8:8)

[paidworker]

All the bleeding hearts about spanish minimum wage and unemployment. I know four unemployed people and three of them left work in the last 2 years on purpose to claim benefits, gaming the system is a way of life for everybody in Spain as is not declaring all your income. In fact about it is known the GDP for spain is totally not accurate as nobody declares most of their income. All these hypocrits talking about the state of the nations coffers get of your potty and pay your taxes and come back to me. There are Easyjet captains earning more than the alledged annual minimum wage in Spain in a month... should they be lynched also? Should our government denounce them as privilegiados and work to turn the nation against them..and that work was well in progress before last friday. What about the 10% of uk police officers on long term sick leave on full wage ? Should mob opinion and rule be the way forward for employers and employees, knowing how fickle the mob is ? Spains unemployment rate at the best of times was close to 10% whereas its approaching that across the eurozone in the worst of times so that too needs to be put in context also. It is not as black and white as any of us is trying to make it.

[belk78]

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/18124862/1824939533/name/IFATCA_PR_Spain_061210.pdf

[p_perez]

@Old_Fokker

There clearly is a direct relation between the union's threads regarding the closing of Spain's airspace in December and the government approving a new decree on December the 3rd. The latter was not planned, it was a reaction to the union's hread.

You seem to express yourself with great authority, for someone who has confessed is not a professional pilot nor ATC. Try answering this question: why didn't Spanish President Zapatero go to the Ibero-American Summit this year and decided to stay at home? This has never happened in 20 years since the first Summit.

And also: why did Spanish Economy minister Elena Salgado acknowledge during a radio interview that there could be 'problems' with Spanish ATCO's, 3 DAYS BEFORE THE NEW ROYAL DECREE WAS RELEASED?

Saludos militares!

[SINGAPURCANAC]

I have to. :E
for me it is amazing how some lessons from the past haven't been learnt. :ugh:
First from USA, already mentioned " Regan Case" '81
The second Ex Federal Republic of Yugoslavia known as "Ceca case" '93( Ceca refers to director general of ATS Ljubisa Velickovic-Ceca,RIP)
In both cases there are lot of simmilarities:
-It was good
-it was very good
-Then system has been closed for outside solutions and ideas,because it was good
- enviroment was changed but ATC didn't suffer
- enviroment again has been changed to worse,but ATC still enjoy "preferencies"
-enviroment changed dramaticly, and someone asked :"we could take some money from ATC?"
-why not?
-there is strong ATC union
-then negotiation
- ATC union didn't recognize situation
-things became complicated
-ATC thinks that they keep the keys,they are licensed ,experienced and unchangable
-Management doesn't think so.
- ATCOs starts strike
-management said: "who doesn't appear on Monday will be fired"
-ATCOs said " No chance to fire a lot of ATCOs" They need us
-Management : "fire them ALL"
end of quote. :cool:

IFATCA keeps mouth closed as ussual :ugh:, Eurocontrol doesn't bother with "internal issue of member states :mad:, Unions has bigger problems than a few hundred overpaid ATCOs,:{ and new day starts .Unfortunattely.

And I will give my oppinion that current situation in Spain is good for ATCOs.
actually military saves your working positions.
nobody tells to ATCOs what really happens if they continiue with the protests.

1.Some ATCOs" are LOYAL to goverment and managemntmthey do not strike ever,after strike isuues,promotion :yuk:

2 Some ATCOs, I call them "WELL INFORMED" were in front line for strike,but they took on that monday sick leave or started regular holiday leave, so management wasn't able to fire them because of law( you can't fire someone if somen is on sick/holiday leave) :yuk:

3 Some ATCOs, I call them ENOUGH IS ENOUGH already decide to leave company,they find a better job or they save enough money during good times, and they find pretty relaxed situation. They aren't oblige to work anymore and they didn't resign itself. they have been fired,At latter stages they wiould take a lot of money from State because they have been fired illegally. :cool:

4. some ATCOs were too stupid to know those issues, continiue with strike and finally they fired. They keep each other ,they "believed" to union leaders, they "believed to IFATCA ,EC or simmilar institution,but thay see that monday empty wallet withou employment.
I will call that group " SORRY MY FRIENDS"


finnaly ,general opinnion about such cases. Private ownership provider solves all those issues easy and painless.

if State is owner it will always be like those mentioned above issues.
Soon or latter.

[Old_Fokker]

P_perez;

You seem to express yourself with great authority, for someone who has confessed is not a professional pilot nor ATC. Try answering this question: why didn't Spanish President Zapatero go to the Ibero-American Summit this year and decided to stay at home? This has never happened in 20 years since the first Summit.

And also: why did Spanish Economy minister Elena Salgado acknowledge during a radio interview that there could be 'problems' with Spanish ATCO's, 3 DAYS BEFORE THE NEW ROYAL DECREE WAS RELEASED?Because one could deduct from USCA's November 29 press release that they would persist with their peculiar interpretation of working time/overtime rules and that as a result of that, airspace all over Spain would have to be closed in the last few remaining weeks of the year?

November 29 Press Release by USCA Union (excerpts):

"Tonight there are no ATCO's in Santiago since all available have reached the maximum hours allowed by law."

"Camilo Cela, the union president, explains that "this problem will be extended to other control units. We anticipate difficulties almost every day for intermittent closures due to the lack of professionals provided by AENA to ensure the service " (Emphasis mine)

[Original press release of 29 November 2010 by USCA union (https://www.usca.es/prensa/carpeta_notas_de_prensa/esta-noche-no-hay-controladores-en-santiago-ya-que-todos-los-que-tienen-que-acudir-a-trabajar-han-cumplido-el-maximo-de-horas-que-permite-la-ley)]You're looking for conspiracy theories when there are none there. Step back and take a deep breath.

****

As promised in an earlier post, here's the translation of Fernando Capella's (*) last article, dated December 3rd, 2010

* Spanish, non-union ATCO.


Uncontrolled Blackmail

A common tactic of blackmail in the collective fight of controllers against AENA and the Government is to interpret the rules in the most restrictive and arbitrary way as possible to favour its interests as a pressure group. With all kinds of excuses they appeal to security and fear, and, while pretending to be highly responsible and the main guarantors of security of aviation, what they really get (and probably pursue) is severely damaging its fluidity and efficiency. As an example of lack of scruples to pervert language, some, when they have a night shift they claim to have worked two days, the day their shift started and the day their shift ended and so they can claim to have worked twenty days each month and that the company thus exploits and harasses them into slavery.

According to the recent law which now regulates their activity, a controller can not work more than 1,670 hours per year, plus 80 voluntary overtime. During this year the union USCA and many ATCO's felt that given the number of existing staff, there would not be enough hours to cover all services, and at the end of the year Aena would be forced by this to give in when negotiating the new agreement. USCA has consistently accused the company of poor forecasting and planning and despise their repeated warnings.

But the ATCO's were calculating their hours according to their own criteria, the wrong ones it appears. The Cabinet has clarified that for that annual limit, non-aeronautical work activities of non-aeronautical (union leave, the imaginary and the licenses and occupational disability absences, and reduced working hours) do not count. Only the hours of actual controlling work with corresponding breaks, plus time for training guards with real traffic are to be counted.

Some ATCO's apparently unilaterally decide how to interpret the rules and not listen to the decisions and clarifications of the competent authorities: a significant number have left their jobs in what could be a serious crime, while all simultaneously and suspiciously claiming that sudden health problems preclude them their work. Given the absence of staff traffic is restricted, closing the airspace almost entirely, causing multibillion-dollar losses and severe damage to many people who can not travel on the eve of a long bank holiday and in the midst of a dire economic crisis.

I do not know if this was a concerted action. I do not know if there are more air traffic controllers who think this is crazy and unacceptable attitude: perhaps there are but dare not to speak out because of some radical individuals. Hopefully they will realize that this demonstration of the damage they can do will harm their already tarnished image even more. [Source (http://www.libertaddigital.com/opinion/francisco-capella/chantaje-descontrolado-57446/)]

[paidworker]

The guy is entitled to his opinion for sure and his recent promotion , however European and global ATCO unions have interpreted the decree in the same way as the individual controllers, the friday decree was to " change " not clarify the hours according to El Mundo.

Looking beyond the 15 day period of forced work where one cannot resign or retire what do you think are the options? Given the age profile and pension packages and low number of people in civilian training combined with ( apparently) few military controllers qualified to take the work, its concievable that a percentage of people are fired and a percentage say enough is enough , what happens then. I mean it seems a common assumption that the end game is to fire them and selectively rehire on a ryanair style package but what if people dont go for that. There is much talk about the staffing crisis ( aside from the issue of who created it ) ..anythoughts on what the end game is... is the plan meantime to divide and conquer them.. the union appears quite united ? How practical is it that outside " civilian " controllers come to work in Spain. Would be interested to hear from qualified ATCOs.

[DjerbaDevil]

There would appear to be a serious overstaffing of Spanish Air Traffic Controllers and this may well be the real reason for the Spanish Controllers trying to protect their "Closed Shop" job with every ruse, be it legal or not.

Once the airports are partially privatised within the next 12-18 months and air traffic control towers are run by private firms, the Spanish ATCOs will need to work according to European standards and systems.

If you don't believe me, read on or page back to pages 14 and 15 of this thread:


19th Jul 2010, 16:45 #263 (permalink) speedbird462

Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13


approach procedures in Spain
I have just read on the national television news website that around 34% of the rostered ATCOs at Barcelona Control Centre were on sick leave today.
I am not particularly interested in the reasons for sickness but rather in the number of ATCOs rostered.
32 for en-route
14 for Approah
7 on standby
I am an approach controller myself and my question is:
do you need 14 Approach controllers for Barcelona for a morning shift? how many holds do you have and what are the complications of the airspace/conflicting traffic patterns that require 14 Approach controllers?
Please excuse me before hand if the information is not accurate and if so I would appreciate the right information.
Thanks!


19th Jul 2010, 20:54 #268 (permalink) calcagafo

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10


approach procedures in Spain
Hi Speedbird:

First I want to say hi to everybody, since I just registered and this is my first post.

I´ve only been working in Barcelona approach for 20 months, but here´s what I know with rwy 25R in service for landings and 25L for departures.

We have five sectors, two for initial approach and departures(one separates departing traffic going north and west and incoming traffic from the west, the other separates departing traffic going south and east and incoming traffic from the south), two feeders and one Final approach. One feeder also does the approach to LEGE(girona), this sector and final approach get three people each, the other three sectors are managed with the other 8 ATCO´s.

That´s (almost)3 atco´s per sector: one on frequency, one coordinator and one resting, we take turns every hour, wich makes 33% resting time and 66% working time.

There are 4 holds, two in the northern feeder(one for traffic coming from the west, the other one for traffic from the north ), and two in the southern feeder(south and east).

Hope this helped

How is it in London?


20th Jul 2010, 15:46 #281 (permalink) speedbird462

Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13


Approach procedures in Spain
Hola Calcagafo!
Thanks for the info. It seems that our system in the UK is slightly different. Since you mentioned that you use two runways at Barcelona, I can only compare it to the Heathrow operation, similar 27L&R. There are also 4 stacks, two to the north of the field for inbounds from the north and two to the south for inbounds from the south. There are 5 positions: Intermediate Director South & Support, Intermediate Director North & Support & Final Director. INT North is the master director and runs the show, deciding the sequence. INT south works inbounds from the south following the sequence of INT north. Both INT directors feed the traffic to Final Director for final sequencing. The TMA area controllers work all of the departures except on an easterly configuration where INT south works departures that are in direct conflict with inbound traffic. During low-medium traffic (rare at EGLL), only two positions are manned INT (North+ South+Support) and Final director. But most of the time Heathrow Approach has 4 controllers on frequency. On a normal morning shift Heathrow has 5 or 6 controllers on duty to allow for breaks, mostly 30mins to 1hr and 30 mins off. Your procedures must be very different and complicated to require 14 controllers for a shift? There is quite a difference 14 to 6 and Heathrow handles a bit more traffic than Barcelona. I just wonder… and I hope this helps too.

On a different note, Mr Blanco has clearly no idea of how air traffic works and how long it takes to train and validate controllers!! All I can say is keep a good look out if military controllers get to control civil traffic in Spain!


21st Jul 2010, 08:37 #285 (permalink) calcagafo

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10


Approach procedures in Spain
Hi there Speedbird:

I think I see how you work, all in all the procedures seem not that different:

what we here call approach includes the whole TMA (14 controllers, six of them on frequency).

Still, the main difference I see (and it´s a big one at that) is that here, for every controller on frequency there is another one monitoring his work in an adjacent screen, and doing the coordinations with the sectors involved (talking on telephone lines or just screaming ).

That makes, 6 on frequency, 6 coordinators and two on a break; changing positions every hour or so.

I understand you don´t have that coordination position?, and every controller on frequency is on his/her own?

Thanks for your support.

[paidworker]

Thank you that is to an extent an enlightening post on face value but it seems that both sides in the "argument" here want more controllers , but lets run with that ..Ok so the objective would then be to fire a portion of the controllers ( and then spend millions on the ensuing legal / constitutional questions ), rewrite the manual , train for the new procedures in the remaining 10 days of military rule. Does Spain have autonomy in this matter of ammendment and self certification? Is that simply achieved or would there be legal/ technical barriers. It seems a very tall order. Im trying to understand if there is a plan as such or are the same people who allowed their military controllers* ratings to expire a few weeks ago running around behind the scenes trying to figure out what to do? ( The stupidity in that itself is not surprising incidentally just as some might argue the union is greedy its very easy to argue the administration is stupid beyond belief ) I gather Reagan had a large body of controllers he could call on , on the outside it appears Spain doesnt.. the French had military controllers ,..it appears Spain doesnt. The military rule could end but I doubt people will just sit there and wait for all this to happen around them over the next 12 months besides which untill its trashed out and bullet proof , the atcos are on board whos gonna pay a decent price for AENA given this is one of 100s of problems they face )


* Source: El Mundo.

[LH2]

Does Spain[....]

I'm not aware what the mid- and long-term plan is, but there is an easy way to find out: ask your Defence Minister. You don't even need a stamp if the letter is posted within Spain, and you should get a reply within a few weeks at most.

Let us know how you get on.

[paidworker]

What the minister plans and what can "practically" happen are two different things. That is of course if the defense minister does any planning since he is responsible for having no civilian qualified ATCOS if the newspapers have it right. I was directing the question at somebody who would know what is "possible". I think its a fair question and one that will begin to be asked as the dust settles.

[BrATCO]

Blockla,

The whole thing IMHO is very very sad and an inditement upon citizens rights from a supposed modern first world country.

I do totally agree with you on this quote and your whole post.

I thought being part of the EU should protect us from such political disruptions : sending the army against citizens.
But it seems we're not in the EU, we're back to EEC and there's too much money involved to take too much care about citizens rights...

And worse about it (as we're on a professional controller's thread) : too much money involved to take safety into account. Isn't there a big Human Factor issue in civilian controllers working civilian flights under a martial law (checked by warriors, potentially jailed...) ?

I stand to be corrected in saying I believe controllers all around the world work around 1500 hrs a year and they are paid twice the average national salary (not the median salary). This for obvious safety reasons : they must be fit and able to focus on planes' and passengers' safety. They should not be disturbed by external/personal problems when on duty.

Spannish controllers were overpaid ?
Fine for them. Who is jealous enough to complain about this ?
The problem, IMHO, is that they were over-paid in making overtime. One of the two HF I refer to wasn't taken into account...

Their employer should have stopped this years ago by recruiting and training before it was too late.
Now it's too late. Training a controller takes months (even years if we wish a decent one).

In a medium-long term, over-time is an operational non-sense.

Djerba Devil,the Spanish ATCOs will need to work according to European standards and systems.

AFAIK, they already do.
The procedures they use are compatible with mine. I have to cope with the "no direct" rule, but that's all.
Their system is compatible with mine : computerised co-ordinations work between Spain and France, which is not the case with Ireland and UK.

As for the overstaffing (if any) some reasonable aviators could tell us that everything in aviation is redundant. 2 engines, 2 FMS, 2 radio boxes, 2 pilots (yet), 2 radar systems on the ground, 2 radio channels,... and so on.
I don't get why the weak link should be : only 1 tired controller with a gun aimed point-blank on the head...

Nock,
I would like to post a Gallo-French personal thought : This is the first time I read flyers from these two unions where they do totally agree. Almost word for word.

[p_perez]

@Old_Fokker:

Any answer to my 2 questions?

And also, you seem quite fond of this Capella guy ... anything personal in that?

Saludos!

[Surferboy]

I think you may find that where NATS had divided it's lower Airspace in London Terminal Control and London Approach control, in Spain it's all called Approach control. Wich explains the difference in staffing they quote. If you would add the staffing level of Terminal to the number of London Approach control, they would be better comparable.


There would appear to be a serious overstaffing of Spanish Air Traffic Controllers and this may well be the real reason for the Spanish Controllers trying to protect their "Closed Shop" job with every ruse, be it legal or not.

Once the airports are partially privatised within the next 12-18 months and air traffic control towers are run by private firms, the Spanish ATCOs will need to work according to European standards and systems.

If you don't believe me, read on or page back to pages 14 and 15 of this thread:


Quote:
19th Jul 2010, 16:45 #263 (permalink) speedbird462

Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13


approach procedures in Spain
I have just read on the national television news website that around 34% of the rostered ATCOs at Barcelona Control Centre were on sick leave today.
I am not particularly interested in the reasons for sickness but rather in the number of ATCOs rostered.
32 for en-route
14 for Approah
7 on standby
I am an approach controller myself and my question is:
do you need 14 Approach controllers for Barcelona for a morning shift? how many holds do you have and what are the complications of the airspace/conflicting traffic patterns that require 14 Approach controllers?
Please excuse me before hand if the information is not accurate and if so I would appreciate the right information.
Thanks!


19th Jul 2010, 20:54 #268 (permalink) calcagafo

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10


approach procedures in Spain
Hi Speedbird:

First I want to say hi to everybody, since I just registered and this is my first post.

I´ve only been working in Barcelona approach for 20 months, but here´s what I know with rwy 25R in service for landings and 25L for departures.

We have five sectors, two for initial approach and departures(one separates departing traffic going north and west and incoming traffic from the west, the other separates departing traffic going south and east and incoming traffic from the south), two feeders and one Final approach. One feeder also does the approach to LEGE(girona), this sector and final approach get three people each, the other three sectors are managed with the other 8 ATCO´s.

That´s (almost)3 atco´s per sector: one on frequency, one coordinator and one resting, we take turns every hour, wich makes 33% resting time and 66% working time.

There are 4 holds, two in the northern feeder(one for traffic coming from the west, the other one for traffic from the north ), and two in the southern feeder(south and east).

Hope this helped

How is it in London?


20th Jul 2010, 15:46 #281 (permalink) speedbird462

Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13


Approach procedures in Spain
Hola Calcagafo!
Thanks for the info. It seems that our system in the UK is slightly different. Since you mentioned that you use two runways at Barcelona, I can only compare it to the Heathrow operation, similar 27L&R. There are also 4 stacks, two to the north of the field for inbounds from the north and two to the south for inbounds from the south. There are 5 positions: Intermediate Director South & Support, Intermediate Director North & Support & Final Director. INT North is the master director and runs the show, deciding the sequence. INT south works inbounds from the south following the sequence of INT north. Both INT directors feed the traffic to Final Director for final sequencing. The TMA area controllers work all of the departures except on an easterly configuration where INT south works departures that are in direct conflict with inbound traffic. During low-medium traffic (rare at EGLL), only two positions are manned INT (North+ South+Support) and Final director. But most of the time Heathrow Approach has 4 controllers on frequency. On a normal morning shift Heathrow has 5 or 6 controllers on duty to allow for breaks, mostly 30mins to 1hr and 30 mins off. Your procedures must be very different and complicated to require 14 controllers for a shift? There is quite a difference 14 to 6 and Heathrow handles a bit more traffic than Barcelona. I just wonder… and I hope this helps too.

On a different note, Mr Blanco has clearly no idea of how air traffic works and how long it takes to train and validate controllers!! All I can say is keep a good look out if military controllers get to control civil traffic in Spain!


21st Jul 2010, 08:37 #285 (permalink) calcagafo

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10


Approach procedures in Spain
Hi there Speedbird:

I think I see how you work, all in all the procedures seem not that different:

what we here call approach includes the whole TMA (14 controllers, six of them on frequency).

Still, the main difference I see (and it´s a big one at that) is that here, for every controller on frequency there is another one monitoring his work in an adjacent screen, and doing the coordinations with the sectors involved (talking on telephone lines or just screaming ).

That makes, 6 on frequency, 6 coordinators and two on a break; changing positions every hour or so.

I understand you don´t have that coordination position?, and every controller on frequency is on his/her own?

Thanks for your support.


There would appear to be a serious overstaffing of Spanish Air Traffic Controllers and this may well be the real reason for the Spanish Controllers trying to protect their "Closed Shop" job with every ruse, be it legal or not.

Once the airports are partially privatised within the next 12-18 months and air traffic control towers are run by private firms, the Spanish ATCOs will need to work according to European standards and systems.

If you don't believe me, read on or page back to pages 14 and 15 of this thread:

Quote:
19th Jul 2010, 16:45 #263 (permalink) speedbird462

Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13


approach procedures in Spain
I have just read on the national television news website that around 34% of the rostered ATCOs at Barcelona Control Centre were on sick leave today.
I am not particularly interested in the reasons for sickness but rather in the number of ATCOs rostered.
32 for en-route
14 for Approah
7 on standby
I am an approach controller myself and my question is:
do you need 14 Approach controllers for Barcelona for a morning shift? how many holds do you have and what are the complications of the airspace/conflicting traffic patterns that require 14 Approach controllers?
Please excuse me before hand if the information is not accurate and if so I would appreciate the right information.
Thanks!


19th Jul 2010, 20:54 #268 (permalink) calcagafo

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10


approach procedures in Spain
Hi Speedbird:

First I want to say hi to everybody, since I just registered and this is my first post.

I´ve only been working in Barcelona approach for 20 months, but here´s what I know with rwy 25R in service for landings and 25L for departures.

We have five sectors, two for initial approach and departures(one separates departing traffic going north and west and incoming traffic from the west, the other separates departing traffic going south and east and incoming traffic from the south), two feeders and one Final approach. One feeder also does the approach to LEGE(girona), this sector and final approach get three people each, the other three sectors are managed with the other 8 ATCO´s.

That´s (almost)3 atco´s per sector: one on frequency, one coordinator and one resting, we take turns every hour, wich makes 33% resting time and 66% working time.

There are 4 holds, two in the northern feeder(one for traffic coming from the west, the other one for traffic from the north ), and two in the southern feeder(south and east).

Hope this helped

How is it in London?


20th Jul 2010, 15:46 #281 (permalink) speedbird462

Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13


Approach procedures in Spain
Hola Calcagafo!
Thanks for the info. It seems that our system in the UK is slightly different. Since you mentioned that you use two runways at Barcelona, I can only compare it to the Heathrow operation, similar 27L&R. There are also 4 stacks, two to the north of the field for inbounds from the north and two to the south for inbounds from the south. There are 5 positions: Intermediate Director South & Support, Intermediate Director North & Support & Final Director. INT North is the master director and runs the show, deciding the sequence. INT south works inbounds from the south following the sequence of INT north. Both INT directors feed the traffic to Final Director for final sequencing. The TMA area controllers work all of the departures except on an easterly configuration where INT south works departures that are in direct conflict with inbound traffic. During low-medium traffic (rare at EGLL), only two positions are manned INT (North+ South+Support) and Final director. But most of the time Heathrow Approach has 4 controllers on frequency. On a normal morning shift Heathrow has 5 or 6 controllers on duty to allow for breaks, mostly 30mins to 1hr and 30 mins off. Your procedures must be very different and complicated to require 14 controllers for a shift? There is quite a difference 14 to 6 and Heathrow handles a bit more traffic than Barcelona. I just wonder… and I hope this helps too.

On a different note, Mr Blanco has clearly no idea of how air traffic works and how long it takes to train and validate controllers!! All I can say is keep a good look out if military controllers get to control civil traffic in Spain!


21st Jul 2010, 08:37 #285 (permalink) calcagafo

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10


Approach procedures in Spain
Hi there Speedbird:

I think I see how you work, all in all the procedures seem not that different:

what we here call approach includes the whole TMA (14 controllers, six of them on frequency).

Still, the main difference I see (and it´s a big one at that) is that here, for every controller on frequency there is another one monitoring his work in an adjacent screen, and doing the coordinations with the sectors involved (talking on telephone lines or just screaming ).

That makes, 6 on frequency, 6 coordinators and two on a break; changing positions every hour or so.

I understand you don´t have that coordination position?, and every controller on frequency is on his/her own?

Thanks for your support.



http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif

[AngeleToR]

Hi everybody,

First of all, thanks to all of you that understand the very hard times we spanish ATCOs are going through and don't get blinded by the easy and mob focused speaking about our huge earnings and wonderful working conditions. All of that is gone and will never come back, but accepting that is one thing, and accepting slavery is a different one.

First of all, I wanted to focus everyone's attention back to the match that fired the fuel can: hours accounting. In July, they raised our yearly maximum hours from 1200 (I recognize it WAS great, I joined this job for the free time) up to 1670 plus 80 extra 'voluntary' hours (they can force you to 'volunteer' indeed), with no negotiation at all.

But the empty heads in our government don't even know how to add 2+2, so the new maximum hours are not enough in most working centers. In Spain, the maximum working hours for ANYONE is around 1800, common jobs, monday to friday, with weekends and public holidays. That maximum usually decreases if the job has special conditions, like shifts, stress, health risks, works holidays/weekends and so on. People working shifts in my own company NOT ATCs rarely exceed 1500 hours per year. Many spanish ATCOs will work, thanks to a retroactive law (illegal by definition in spain), something like 1750 'aeronautic' hours, I mean, sitting in front of your screen talking with planes (with 20% rests during day and 30% nightly). Then add to that maximum the 'non-aeronautic' hours, like training/formation, medical examinations, backup shifts where you MUST be ready to go to job, but don't get called... For me, a simple mind, every hour I spend doing any task related to my job, is a worked hour, as I can't be with my family. So you can end up with 2000~2200 hours worked a year. Split it in 8 hours per day, you work 250~275 days working... But hey!!! We work nights, do you know the term 'sleeping day'??? Okay, me too, but my company and government doesn't, so they are accounted as off days. You see the point?? In my simple mind that reminds me of slavery.

And in what european country, if your take a one month sick leave due to surgery, p.e., you have to give back to the company the days in that month that you couldn't work??? Apart of spain, I mean.

And about money, forget everything you knew or believed to, the latest 48 ATCOs contracted, are earning ~1700€/month. Rub your eyes and read it again, it's correct, ~20500€/year after taxes. The older of us are way better, a small TWR ATCO earning ~3500€/month, 42500€/year after taxes, working some 1500 hours/year.

And there are LOTS of things to add to these, like 365/24 availability, if the company calls you ANY day and you unhang the phone, you're screwed, the law forces you to attend the service. Many of us NEVER answer a call in our free days from unknown numbers, and my kids are taught not to answer the fixed line, instead my wife does and I am never home nor locatable.

Now the govmt. pres. says that he may need to extend the alarm period for 2 additional months!!! I want to quit my job and I cannot!!!! There are fellow ATCOs that had gone through the interviews to migrate to Germany, and now they are 'kidnapped' and can't take the job offer they already had... It's a mad situation, with no logical solution, and we are AFRAID about where will all of this situation end into...

By the way, I want to say that the vast majority of us are really comfortable working for the military. We are being treated with more respect now that ever in the last year and a half. I've been told that in ACC's the sectors capacity is being respected first time in MANY months since military took control. Previously, the company understaffed the shifts, opening less sectors BUT offering more capacity that even with all the positions open!!! I've seen LEMD's bay photos where 6 planes were scheduled with the same CTOT.

My only hope is that my military status finishes the soonest so I can resign and get back to a better 'civilian' job in computing, hopefully in a different country. Spain is going to need many years to recover from our current govern...

Kind regards to all of you

[calcagafo]

Old_Fokker


that they would persist with their peculiar interpretation of working time/overtime rules


Is it so peculiar to interpret that sick leave, maternity/paternity leave or formation should count as working time?
Because they do count in any other job in Spain (as I suppose in most democratic countries)

Regards

[winchman41]

Angele and all the other Spanish ATCOs,

I have pointed out in an earlier post in this thread that you guys will need support from the aviation community and you should aim at not making everyone your adversary. That was a short while before the ultimate clash that we have seen now and obviously too late anyway. And, as has been worked out in other posts here before, presumably you guys and your union didn't want to listen to well meaning suggestions.

To an extent I can can grasp your extreme anger you are in at the moment, however, you should realize that what you are complaining about in your current working conditions is actually the REAL WORLD for many in the aviation world, let alone the "normal" working staff. And I am not talking of some third world countries!

In the Area Control Centre (somewhat further north than Spain) where I used to work there were also some Spanish colleagues. When the first started work there, we were of course wondering why they would go for a permanent winter climate rather than enjoying nice southern European weather. The more so when we learned over time the unbelievably fantastic working conditions in Spanish ATC. But it became clear then, that our Spanish fellows weren't admitted to the national Spanish ATS because of reasons that were already discussed in this thread here before.

Maybe its about time for you guys, after having calmed down somewhat, to regain a view for what is a normal working life, particularly in the current state of your country's economy. You've had golden times, and I am saying that without any jealousy, but it is about time to face reality now!

[Denti]

First of all, if you really want to compare your working conditions with pilots don't be surprised if many do not see the point.

First of all, the limit per year for working (duty) hours is 2000, and we do reach it nearly every year, of course depending on company and network conditions. Doesn't matter if it's day or night, or both. Doesn't matter if we work in constant jetlag conditions because we do fly eastbound and westbound longrange back to back.

Is it so peculiar to interpret that sick leave, maternity/paternity leave or formation should count as working time?

Yes, it is. Even standby duty if not done at an airport is not working time. Neither is CBT training which is nowadays the main method of training, simply because we can do it over the internet from home in our spare time. Simulator time on the other hand is both working and flight duty time in my company, however the flight duty time part is only because of a collective agreement. We do have some minimum conditions for all of europe, and that is probably something you should try and lobby for via your european union but don't be surprised that it will be in all probability pretty bad as well.

In my previous desk job it was simply expected to work somewhere above 80 hours a week, allnighters preceded and followed by a normal day of work were simply, a completely free sunday was a rare luxury. Being on call 24/7 in case some server had problems was also part of the normal working life.

[flameproof]

Tying into the post by DjerbaDevil, if one looks at the AIPs (AD) for EGLL and LEBL, we notice:

- EGLL has four frequencies assigned to APP, one main and three used as instructed by ATC. LEBL has seven frequencies assigned to APP. It's curious that in the 'Remarks' column, the frequencies are marked as APP-H, APP-I and APP-L, while there is no definition of their meaning, one could guess "high", "intermediate" and "low".

- EGLL has one full-time frequency for TWR, and another used 0700-2200 or as instructed, for busy periods. LEBL has two frequencies for TWR, apparently full-time.

- EGLL has one frequency for delivery, which is not full-time. LEBL has also one frequency for delivery.

- EGLL has three GMC frequencies. LEBL has five GMC frequencies, marked as "GMC SC", "GMC W", "GMC E", "GMC SS", and "GMC SN". Again, there is no indication as to what the letters after GMC mean.

Now, for the numbers (taken from official BAA and AENA statistics):

- EGLL handled, in 2008, 67 million passengers and 322,000 movements.
- LEBL handled, in 2008, 30 million passengers and 152,000 movements.

Roughly, LEBL handled 47% of EGLL's movement load, and 45% of EGLL's passenger load. In absolute terms, London Heathrow handled one movement every 1.6 minutes, whereas Barcelona handled one movement every 3.5 minutes.

Does this tally with the number of assigned frequencies? Someone above mentioned every active frequency in Spain has TWO controllers assigned to it, one handling the phones and the other the radio. If Barcelona has many more APP frequencies, the logic should be that it is so due to the large number of movements - how can Heathrow cope with less? As for GMC, Barcelona is again over-resourced, as it has two more frequencies than Heathrow, and again, not as many movements.

Pilots who regularly fly to/from these two airfields could chip in - IMHO, at least in Barcelona, ATC is over-staffed for the number of movements it has, no wonder the controllers "ran out of hours" before year's end.

[Old_Fokker]

P_perez:

Any answer to my 2 questions?

I responded to both of them in one single answer.

And also, you seem quite fond of this Capella guy ... anything personal in that?

None whatsoever. I translated and posted his articles here to shed some light on the issue from what appears to be 'the other side' which in my opinion is always healthy in any open discussion. If you have a problem with that, please state so.

Again, don't go looking for conspiracy theories because there are none. I already stated some personal details about myself some posts back. If you don't believe me, that is your problem.

calcagafo:

Is it so peculiar to interpret that sick leave, maternity/paternity leave or formation should count as working time?

It is peculiar when the competent authorities have informed you repeatedly how to calculate those hours yet you persisted in doing it your way with the result that some towers were not staffed during certain shifts.

Because they do count in any other job in Spain (as I suppose in most democratic countries)

Nice how you compare your job to that of any other job in Spain when it suits you. How about you state here all the perks you have enjoined and still wanted which no other job in Spain has ever had.

[flameproof]

Oh, and before anyone jumps on my head about Barcelona's APP frequencies, there are also 14 other frequencies (civilian) assigned to Barcelona's UIR and FIR, apart from those I count on my post.

Also, commenting on AngeleToR's post:

In July, they raised our yearly maximum hours from 1200 (I recognize it WAS great, I joined this job for the free time) up to 1670 plus 80 extra 'voluntary' hours (they can force you to 'volunteer' indeed), with no negotiation at all.

But the empty heads in our government don't even know how to add 2+2, so the new maximum hours are not enough in most working centers.

So, you are saying that with the same staff, you had 1200 hours maximum, and they were enough. They now raise this maximum to 1670 + 80 voluntary, you have the same staff, and this is now NOT enough? Who are you kidding?

The difference is that overtime hours were paid at ridiculously high prices by AENA. No wonder the average salary went from 330k€ to 200k€. No wonder you are all 'sick'.

[Surferboy]

Flameproof: Look at my previous post, all is depending on what they call BCN APP. It can be that those 14 controllers are for an airspace that is much bigger than only the EGLL APP area. NATS UK gave the part of airspace between the LL TMA and the upper Airspace another name. (London Terminal Control) It could very well be that BCN just called all of it Approach.

[flameproof]

Surferboy,

Thanks, I read your post and that's why I added another one citing the ENR AIP, which lists 14 frequencies for Barcelona's FIR and UIR, so those are on top of the ones listed under APP for Barcelona. In addition, the APP frequencies are listed in the LEBL AD AIP, thus someone only going through the FIR would not be concerned by them.

[saintex2002]

Para todos, again all my support, suerte...
And all understood... :ok:
Will be there soon... ;)

[andrijander]

P_perez;

Quote:
You seem to express yourself with great authority, for someone who has confessed is not a professional pilot nor ATC. Try answering this question: why didn't Spanish President Zapatero go to the Ibero-American Summit this year and decided to stay at home? This has never happened in 20 years since the first Summit.
And also: why did Spanish Economy minister Elena Salgado acknowledge during a radio interview that there could be 'problems' with Spanish ATCO's, 3 DAYS BEFORE THE NEW ROYAL DECREE WAS RELEASED?


Because one could deduct from USCA's November 29 press release that they would persist with their peculiar interpretation of working time/overtime rules and that as a result of that, airspace all over Spain would have to be closed in the last few remaining weeks of the year?

I guess by "they" you mean USCA. Then how come AENA's president, Mr. Lema (or Lame, as he's better known), explained this during the summer:
YouTube - El presidente de AENA dijo que 1670 horas de jornada eran suficientes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM4TC0XcPlQ&feature=player_embedded)

Basically here he explained "theoretically" how many hours a controller has to work. 1670. Rough translation:

...that law dictates 1670 hours. But also, from there, if you count 48 hours for personal matters (which controllers are entitled to as [any] other workers in Spain). If there's 10 hours for the psichophysical [medical] testing. And 60 hours of training. The effective working hours, including rest/breaks, is 1552 hours.


Also, off topic-ish, I haven't replied to our previous exchange because...why bother? Some of your replies were "apples and oranges" and "bullsh1t". Obviously you hold the supreme truth. So, my final plea to you:
Oh holy one I beg your mercy since I am a mere mortal and have to fulfill my chores. I swear to persevere in ensuring the right to travel of your pious flock. Amen. :}

[VJW]

AngeleToR you would have us feel sorry for you, and I think it's nothing short of disgusting. Stop blaming the government, it's YOU thats the problem.

I've been working out of Spain for two years, and you'd have us believe you were the best ATCO's in the world, when actually you're by far the worst. I'd love for any of you to go work one shift in london for the day, you wouldn't cope (the answer isnt always 220kt - 150 miles from destination).

I could honestly talk all day about this, but tomorrow when I go to work again, and hear you say, 'XXX Tower under military control' it makes me so happy.

Your entire economy relies on tourism, and you want to destroy it. You are all so bad you shouldn't even be paid what you are, let alone a pay increase!

Making the money you do, when you're country is screwed like it is, i say again, is nothing short of DISGUSTING.

STATION CALLING, STATION CALLING, STATION CALLING!!!!

[transilvana]

VJW

You´re on UK, no idea what´s going on here, it´s not the ATC, it´s a political problem. First were the pilots, now the ATCO´s, next who?

One thing about the president of AENA, Mr. Lema. His wife is the head of Human resources at AENA, he was before president of San Jose, a constractor company which by the way gets all the contracts from AENA, T1 at Barcelona 1billion €, Eng at Madrid Airport 6 billion€, Leon Airport and so, close friend of Jose Blanco, Ministry of Fomento.... During 5 months he was president of AENA and at the same time president of this builder.

This is just one thing, this goes further. How much is AENA going to save on ATCO´s salaries? 100 million€? they have a debt of 30 billion €, yep!!!

This issue has nothing to do with ATCO´s salaries or conditions, they are using them in their own interest against society so cover the real economical problems for selling AENA. Sorry to say but socialists has always been a cancer for us like they are now.

Also, do you know that if a country is on a sate of alarm you stop paying loan interests? yep, another thing

Do you know that Jose Blanco promised on february that end of the year there would be another extra 500 new ATCO´s? yep, sure, if the trainee pays more than 100.000€, they have none so far.

Do you know that there are 47 airports on Spain and only 7 have positive earnings?

Do you know that Mr. Zapatero ordered to built a 4.000 meters runway in Leon and a hughe new pax terminal? by the way, he is from Leon and do you know which is the movement of passengers per month? 600, that´s it

I can write an encyclopedia on lots of thing they are doing but this country is death and people don´t react, instead of blaming those who earn a high salary blame why there are close to 6.000.000 unemployed and the minimum basic salary is 426€...

That´s it, I don´t care how many frequencies are in London or JFK, I fly over there and I know who you can trust or not and I know your job, if I have an emergency I want to land as soon as possible, if you help me ok, if you don´t better start clearing traffic because I´m going down.

About Barcelona I know the problems very close, and some things are good and others aren´t, more than 40 different SID´s and a ton of STAR´s is a pain. I flew from UUWW for a time and there was only 2 SID´s and 2 STAR´s, plain easy, no problem, better for us and better for controllers.

By the way, russians are improving a lot, lovely country.

[trueline]

I read with horror what is being done to the Spanish controllers.

They are scapegoats for incompetent management.

They are being blamed for the government's mistakes.

And the abusive language directed at them by others is ill-informed and unfair.

The Spanish controllers are being vigorously attacked and should be supported.

Basic freedoms are being stripped from them.

AENA and the government are to blame and those in charge should be sacked.

To Spanish controllers:

Keep strong, don't listen to abuse and good luck!

[Old_Fokker]

andrijander:

I guess by "they" you mean USCA. Then how come AENA's president, Mr. Lema (or Lame, as he's better known), explained this during the summer:
YouTube - El presidente de AENA dijo que 1670 horas de jornada eran suficientes

Basically here he explained "theoretically" how many hours a controller has to work. 1670. Rough translation:
Quote:
...that law dictates 1670 hours. But also, from there, if you count 48 hours for personal matters (which controllers are entitled to as [any] other workers in Spain). If there's 10 hours for the psichophysical [medical] testing. And 60 hours of training. The effective working hours, including rest/breaks, is 1552 hours. Usually I find short, edited video clips a bit suspect so I looked up what Mr Lema (Mr Lame is a lame joke, don't you agree?) actually said. Turns out that right after he stated the above, he added:


""Es un ejercicio teórico. / It is a theoretical exercise."Should you not believe me, and my gut feeling says you won't, you can check it here (http://www.senado.es/legis9/publicaciones/pdf/senado/ds/CS0357.PDF) (PDF alert).

That said, it is the decree which is legal and binding and the decree was officially accepted at the end of July. The fact that even USCA union has not used that argument indicates that either the union leaders are blind, something I cannot imagine, or that they realized it is useless.

Also, off topic-ish, I haven't replied to our previous exchange because...why bother? Some of your replies were "apples and oranges" and "bullsh1t". Obviously you hold the supreme truth.Either that or you are running out of arguments.

[Surferboy]

@ Flameproof: Yes, but what if you would look up all the frequencies London has for their FIR/UIR that would then be comparable. This is just apples and oranges. :)

[BrATCO]

AngeleToR,
We are being treated with more respect now that ever in the last year and a half. I've been told that in ACC's the sectors capacity is being respected first time in MANY months since military took control.

Of course, they are careful !

Even though Spanish militaries can't read English and don't understand the tens of posts here refering to March '73, they must remember : both planes were Spanish...

Will I dare say that (for silly reasons and just for two weeks), you're now working for an ANSP we (controllers) are all dreaming about ?
Their motto is : "Safety is our first and only concern"...:D

Exactly the way I would like ATC to be dealt with.

Note : In SES-2 as I expect it, Safety is only the 5th pillar ! That's already 2 pillars too much to be steady... :uhoh:

[AngeleToR]

Thanks for the support and the comprehension. Even many people would like to see us eating from the trash forever, with our houses taken from us by the government and our families living under the bridge just because we had VERY good working conditions (don't forget that we work after all, not like our politicians), right now we are shouting for BASIC rights, that you can read in the spanish constitution, like union negotiation with your company.

Anyway, it's great to see that both IFATCA (professional) and ATCEUC (unions) have published both letters about the 'spanish affair'.

I'm ashamed to recognize that I can't take any more, my wife keeps telling me to resign. I stood until to now because I had faith in a negotiated solution to the problem, but the truth starts to show up so clear: they don't want to negotiate, they don't want even prisoners... They want to destroy ATC in spain to rebuild it from the ground up, people with 1500€/month and no laboral rights... I've got a bachelor in computing, and so does my wife, and most of my fellows ATCs are industrial or aeronautical engineers, and I know MANY of us will get back to their previous lifes.

I love my current job, and will be SO hard to quit, but I've been forced to. I hope to start a new life with my family in another country, bets winner by now are NZ and USA, see you there!!!!

[Lon More]

I got the following reaction from LH2 on the thread referring to salaries,
Then you show up on another thread where, as far as I can tell, nothing of substance is being discussed, in order to contribute exactly what? Some out of date trivia? this being the thread where nothing of substance is being discussed I believe.
I wonder why he bothers visiting. Not that i expect an answer from the Troll, I'm on his Ignore list.

[saintex2002]

...They want to destroy ATC in spain to rebuild it from the ground up, people with 1500€/month and no laboral rights...

AngeleToR, not only Spain... :=
Be sure , we're facing a total European war against the European ATCO collective...
And Spain is only for test and training... if it works in Spain, it'll work in the all next FABs...
And for the moment, it seems to work well...hope we gonna see that as the final countdown... :D
Time is coming for the European ATCO collective to think about how they want to live the next decades...

[gato]

I agree with you.

[flameproof]

@surferboy indeed, but take into account that the Barcelona FIR serves some 12 airports, the London FIR is much more complex in terms of number of airfields, airspace arrangement and number and type of operations.

[aldegar]

and I know MANY of us will get back to their previous lifes.




I was allready working on that, and since the last decree I now have no doubt about it (with full support from family and wife). In fact, two months ago I started "refresh training" on my previous job.

What I am wondering is that, if we start to leave (and since they have no replacement right now), ¿will they extend the state of alarm forever and ever so we can't quit the job? ¿will they FORCE us to work as ATCOs against our will? It may sound ridiculous, but the situation right now is so unreal...

[VJW]

Perhaps I'm insensitive to this situation, however I've experienced the backlash of these strikes for years now.

Look at the bigger picture, my mum worked as a nurse her whole life looking after the sick and dying and made 1000 euro/month - much more important then an ATCO.

My basic point is, Spain's ATCO are the worst in Europe - which is a fact. London manages fine, and put it this way, I've never had an ATC slot in my career unless flying to or over spain.

I understand people have a right to strike, and we've seen ALOT in spain. My main issue is with these unauthorised strikes, that screw everyone with zero notice. Look at the bigger picture, you've brought it on yourselves. Be happy you have a job, when many people in your country have none. Don't also lie about your wages, the document you wanted signed clearly stated you wanted an average salary of 300,000 euros a year with less working conditions.

Be serious, and take a long hard look in the mirror. Bit like BA strike, what type of person strikes during a worldwide economic crisis? A selfish one I think. No matter how many people insult me for my opinions, I just can't agree to that!

VJW

[Blue5]

Hi VJW, you just mentioned wordwide economic crises. Who tells you that we got a crises.

For months we hear that word crises. The news tell us we got a crises and what's written in the news is correct, isn't it?????

Well, just to keep in mind. Watch the previous numbers in different economies. Asia is booming, the middle east is booming. Some European countries are booming (the others just will follow). Yeah, forget the US, it's just a country left with service-sector, agriculture and financial institutions rescueing for their country what they can (FED).

Look at the traffic situation, overflights etc. We are not in an economic crises any more..... that was 2008! we got almost 2011! Wake up, guys. Use your brains to see what's going on. Don't be sheep.
I get sick people talking about the economic crises ....

[samotnik]

I've never had an ATC slot in my career unless flying to or over spain.

Most probably your career consists of two flights.

[BeT]

Look at the bigger picture, my mum worked as a nurse her whole life looking after the sick and dying and made 1000 euro/month - much more important then an ATCO.

So what! A footballer can get paid €1,000,000 per week and I think its fair to say an ATCO is generally of more use than a footballer.

The point you are trying to make is mute.

[flameproof]

@BeT: A footballer is not paid with our taxes, an ATCO is. My money, my questions, my right to demand accountability. There have been no answers to many questions, and zero accountability. And now, either:

a) They lied and did not suffer a collective hysteria (a medical condition that required them to stop working they say), which is likely as some 100 controllers in Madrid walked off and assembled at a nearby hotel (presumably to receive group therapy?), or

b) They did suffer collective hysteria, in which case they are the LAST people I want manning an ATC facility. They are, by their own definition, supposed to be calm, steady and cool-headed in order to do this job.

both of which are awful prospects.

[Elephant and Castle]

Well many are certainly not much better at controling than most footballers and definetly much more spiteful. We have suffered for over one year your "campaign". You have cost our employers hundreds of millions, you have delayed millions of passengers you have made our working lives misserable with petty enforcement of petty rules. Now you ask for simpathy? Sorry unable, standard route I am afraid.

Any of you seriously thinking of looking for a job outside Spanish ATC you are on for serious shock: lots of work, no perks, a tenth of your currently salary and.... If you dont deliver you are fired. Try walking out because of a "headache" see what happens in the real world.

[calcagafo]

the document you wanted signed clearly stated you wanted an average salary of 300,000 euros a year with less working conditions.


May we see a copy of that document? have you seen it?......

Oh, I get it, you heard someone on the TV saying it, then it must be true.....

Regards

[VJW]

Samotnik you're quite funny for a polish guy. Unfortunately for you (and me) my 2000 some odd hours have all been out of a spanish airport, so feel my input as hated as it appears, is probably more valuable than yours.

300,000 euros is what they were demanding, I wish all the ATCO's here would stop trying to hide the truth, and am glad there are some fellow pilots with some valuable and honest input adding to this argument. (well said Elephant and Castle!)

beT you make a ridiculous point too. I'm definitely not going to justify a salary of a footballer in the whole scheme of things, but most footballers are better at their job then a Spanish ATCO at theirs. A football club is a business, and if the club pays a player a ridiculous salary then I guess they deserve it.

Blue5 maybe you should wake up, Spanish ATCO's have been doing this before 2008!! Come fly in spain, would take you 10 minutes to agree, nothing has changed, and you think Spain is not in a crisis you need to seriously wake up and smell unemployment stats.

Winds me up how much the ATCO's seem to beg for sympathy on here, even the rookies in training get more the 1500 a month. If anyone doubts a thing I say, you give me your email, and tomorrow I'll go down to the ATCO car park round the corner and take a picture of the cars they own.

You can clearly tell who is a pilot, who is an ATCO, and who is a pencil pusher in an office somewhere by the responses to these posts.

Yesterday a female ATCO started crying on the freq due to the stress, these are the people asking for more money.......it's amazing! :ugh:

[BeT]

You can clearly tell who is a pilot, who is an ATCO, and who is a pencil pusher in an office somewhere by the responses to these posts.

Quite, and it doesnt say much for pilots either....

Ive already written on here numerous times that I can not agree with the methods the Spanish ATCOs have employed and that they need to wake up and smell the coffee in terms of salary, so dont go confusing me with someone who carte blanche agrees with their ideas.

However:

1. Why oh why are people so wound up over ATCO salaries (either past or present) - In the grand scheme of things its peanuts. Its one of the problems afflicting most countries in the Western World - ' if I cant earn €300,000, then nobody can! ' Jealousy at its worst.

2. ATC is not really a portable job. It has a finite workforce with a very slow turnover. Locations are limited and it does not leave you with a widely useful/acceptable skill set. Do I think €300,000 is an outrageous salary for an ATCO? - no. Would I care if a pilot earnt €1,000,000? NO! I'd say fair play to them. Is a footballer worth millions and millions? Somebody thinks so, so fair enough.

3. The Spanish government are now undertaking a MASSIVE piss take and the fact that a lot of people seem happy so see it happen is both scary and extremely short-sighted.

Sour grapes arent pretty, and there are a lot being thrown about on this thread.

[Always Moving]

I do not know exactly what happens but there are some facts here


1 ATC works for an agency that is control by the Government
2 There is no private ATC school, so you can only be an ATC after you go to Government School.
3 If you control supply AND demand and you can not control a close market I do not think you are very smart (the last part is a personal thought)


In my opinion the government should had toughs 5000ATC and slice the salaries of all of this APPARENTLY over inflated salaries.


Should they had walked off?, NO it is illegal!,but also APPARENTLY they have been trying to negotiate with the government for years!
And a few months ago a minister very much on the line of the last socialist president “X” I do what I want and I bend or change the rules by either buying the judge (sorry they did not buy them they were already bought long time ago) or passing law. They change a legal contract! And then they MILITARIZE the ATC (I still do not even know what that means, how can they make you a military person if you are a civilian and you do not want anything to do with the military is beyond me)


And what is with the state of emergency! Buddy you brought this problem onto yourself! but hey! It sounds good with the dumb sheep (read voters)


Bottom line, one more time, government mismanagement!

[andrijander]

Continuing on what Always Moving just said,

yesterday there was a session at Congress and the president said that, when there is a gap in the civilian law, military law should be used instead. That is a very weird way of interpreting law since, you could argue, that in that case you're always considered military personnel except when civil law states otherwise. Very perverse. That is what government is defending at the moment.

Won't go into much detail since I'm not a lawyer but it is a very complicated case indeed. Never before have we seen a situation like this (in Spain, during "democracy"). There is a chance that the rule in which they based their decision to mobilize controllers (under military command, or "organization and supervision", as stated in the decree) is not a valid rule, since it is previous to the constitution and it may be clashing with it. When the constitution was approved it invalidated previous rules that may clash with it but the system didn't specify which rules, one by one, were invalid. So we may be in one of those cases where the rule used should be invalid. Comprenden? I hope so :8
Worthy to mention that all political parties have their doubts about the legality of it, but they still support the government.Also worthy of mention is that the government initiated the mobilization of the military units and personnel BEFORE getting approval from Congress. Which may also invalidate the whole thing.

¿Es inconstitucional la ley de Navegación Aerea? · ELPAÍS.com (http://www.elpais.com/articulo/economia/inconstitucional/ley/Navegacion/Aerea/elpepueco/20101209elpepueco_4/Tes)

In any case that is one of the many legal fronts opened last 03-12. You could say Pandora's box has been opened. To summarize controllers now have to contend with:

-Legality of militarization decree (as mentioned above, initiated by controllers)
-Disciplinary action from AENA (employer)
-Disciplinary action from AESA (regulator)
-Actions through civilian law code enforcement agency
-Actions through military law code by the civilian enforcement agency (nobody is very sure about how this one is gonna pan out??? Controllers are, at the minute, not recognizing the civil authority in the matter since they claim they're under military rules. Therefore it should be a military court taking care of it. Government says that what they're being charged with was previous to the decree, albeit for a few hours, therefore it is a civil court that has to take charge.)


So it is quite messy at the minute. And this is becoming a precedent on how to deal with issues in the future, let's not forget that.

Spanish tourism ads abroad motto: "Smile, you're in Spain."
I would add: "Smile, you're in Spain. And that's an order!"

[rennaps]

It seems that IFATCA does not agree with a lot of you and I quote:

"IFATCA is a professional organization that promotes safety, efficiency and regularity in international aviation. To this end we are equally frustrated and fully understand the anger caused by the current disruptions to flights in Spain. We are especially aggrieved that the unplanned nature of these irregularities during a holiday period affected a large group of travelers and their families.

IFATCA understands that this crisis resulted when the imposed maximum number of working hours was surpassed, which meant controllers would effectively violate a Royal Decree imposed on them earlier this year. When this limit proved insufficient, as was previously predicted, AENA and the government simply changed it. Contrary to persistent reports in the press, air traffic controllers did NOT strike about pay, allowances or financial compensations.

To solve this entirely manufactured and avoidable problem, the Spanish Minister for Internal Affairs declared a State of Alarm applicable only to air traffic controllers on 4 December 2010. For the next 15 days, Spanish air traffic controllers are under military mobilization. By choosing conflict over any form of social dialogue, AENA and the Spanish government wish to divert attention from the main issue AENA faces: a series of disastrous financial decisions and the resulting deficit. Using controllers as scapegoats, they hope to salvage what is in essence a badly mismanaged state company.

By choosing to resolve the conflict with a law last used 40 years ago under the Franco regime the Spanish government has created extremely serious concerns for the safety of air traffic and passengers travelling within the Spanish airspace. By forcing controllers to work under military supervision the government has cancelled all previous agreements derived through social dialogue. The Spanish authorities have not only disregarded all international conventions, including the Lisbon Treaty and basic human rights, they have also disregarded accepted safe standards and recommended practices.

Safe and reliable service cannot be guaranteed by military commands in any safety critical function. Given the duress under which our Spanish colleagues are forced to work, IFATCA declares that the safety of Spanish airspace and airports is severely
compromised while this military rule is in force.

By resorting to totalitarian and dictatorial measures, Spain and its service provider can no longer be considered a worthy partner in international projects and we would submit it has effectively forfeited its Single European Sky (SES) certification. In addition, we submit that Spain has effectively reneged from international agreements and projects, up to and including commitments made to ICAO. IFATCA urges international organizations such as ICAO, the European Commission, EUROCONTROL, and CANSO to ensure that the situation in Spain doesnt escalate any further and that it realigns itself with international standards. Failure to do so could well trigger a wave of solidarity actions of controllers around Europe in support of their Spanish colleagues.

Only an open and constructive social dialogue, worthy of any democratic and civilized society, can resolve the current deadlock in Spanish service provision.

[flameproof]

I really don't get why people don't read more than the last 2-3 posts of the thread. To make a few things clear:

1. People don't complain about ATCOs making a lot of money per se, even if the salaries are huge and benefits wide and generous, but about the fact that every few months, ATCOs complain about their working conditions, amount of hours they work, and so on. When you make an AVERAGE of 300.000€ a year, you simply cannot complain that you work 1700 hours and your EU colleagues only 1400. Man people work 2000 hours a year for far less money and are not complaining and whining all the time.

2. ATCOs don't go on planned strikes (they keep saying on TV that they have NEVER been on strike - yeahright!), but instead sabotage procedures, eg. making all aircraft heavy, closing sectors, getting 'sick', etc. Any pilot who flies to/from Spain regularly will know what I'm talking about.

3. ATCOs are under a very generous agreement signed in 1999, and which automatically renews if a new one is not agreed upon with AENA. Makes sense thus that they are always negotiating a new agreement, and never reach one. As an example, overtime is paid at 450€/hour, do you think from a company/manager view that it makes sense to pay this, or hire more controllers? The fact that the ATCOs, through their union, have had veto over hiring new staff, makes it obvious where the interest lies. Eg:

1200hx150€ + 470hx450€ = 391.500€ (1999 agreement)
1670hx150€ = 250.500€ (Feb. 2010 decree)

In their shoes, what would you defend?

Yeah, thought so...

[AngeleToR]

Flameproof, we are tired to say this last months to everyone that we are exhausted up to an unsafe point, and the government 'reinterprets' it as that we are menacing the passengers...

We made some simple sums this summer and saw that the maximum hours will be reached by the end of the year, and government said we were menacing with undeclared strikes. They let the problem rot until it wildly exploded, I say again, we are EXHAUSTED and thousands of lives depend on us and our good job (thanks god for the TCAS)... We are AFRAID of doing our job in our current conditions (physically and psychologically tired, many are menaced with jail and losing EVERY property they have, people HATES US thanks to our incompetent government).

OK, we deserve it because of what we have done, screwing everybody up and all that stuff... But honestly, do you believe that what we did is a rational reaction for a group of equilibrated people just forcing the government to earn 350.000€ instead of 200.000€??? It seems more a desperate measure of desperate people trying desperately to be heard, to stop all the madness we are living in from ten months now until it's too late and we all get really sorry about it. And please, forget about money once and for all, 5.000€ gross per month sums 60.000€, google a little and you will find scanned monthly wages proving it.

We are playing with human lives, nobody sees??? When finally the accident happens, as we are warning since months ago, let's guess who will end up in jail... Right, the ATCO!!! Because we have warned (menaced according gov.) about colliding two airplanes... And then, any spanish ATCO, being the most hated people in Spain right now because we enjoy ******* up people's holidays, are evil and greedy, will also be declared mass killers without trial... I'm concerned about MY safety and my family's, that's why I want to leave the country, before it's too late.

As it's been already said, for god's sake, we're not monster, we haven't killed anybody.... yet...
Please, think by yourselves, will you believe a colleague's word or a spanish politician's... We LIVE for safety, you LIVE for safety, do politicians or company managers LIVE for safety??? Or they consider safety a vague word we use to work less and hide behind it to not accept 50 movs/hour when we say only 40 will safely fit???

[paidworker]

Flameproof, you wanted to be an air traffic controller but failed to get in. Give it a rest with the sour grapes. Regardless of the maths etc. etc. the point is now that the government is using the military in an illegal manner to force people to do their work, next when they think its a good idea to get rid of 1000 bus drivers , 5000 nurses , 6000 metro drivers ..or they just dont like what people are protesting about. All the time of course they are wasting 1000s of times more money awarding each others companies state contracts. There are issues beyond ATCs pay at play and it would only be somebody who has not worked for any reasonable time / or as a pay to fly is used to bad conditions and no rights who would fail to see that.