Spanish ATC

[Tight Seat]

'Reports of controllers taking their children to work because the shifts are imposed at such short notice that they can't find childcare'

I thought ALC were a little better on the ball last night...

[Tight Seat]

Micro etal

As for all the ' you childish pilots....don't know anything'.... well buddy it seems we are all playing in the same school yard, but your lot have taken the ball home.

Get on with it, strike ,or do what you are paid to do. Bleeding hearts don't do it for me.

[Del Prado]

There's seems a lot of clamour for the Spanish ATCOs to go on strike but I thought they lost the right to strike in the royal decree, is this correct?

[andrijander]

Take your own conclusions:

if they announce a strike, which you have to do for it to be legal, provider/government can dictate minimum service of 100% (so making strike void, so to speak).

Also they can recall you to work whenever and if you don't show they can fire you or start a disciplinary process (they can suspend your salary for as long as the investigation is ongoing...btw the investigation is made by the ANSP, so they can take as long as they want. Whilst there you're in limbo, since you can't go to court and fight the decision since you're not fired...blackmail anyone?).

In theory this all is to guarantee the service, which is the excuse they have been using to introduce the royal decree, when there was no imminent threat to it from start (it my have been better or worse, but there was service). Now controllers are 21st century slaves. The only option would be to just not go to work altogether. Let's see how much sympathy that creates amongst the public/coworkers/users/etc.. also they think"if they have done us this for nothing, what would they do then?". Unemployment in Spain is close to 20%, how many controllers can just jump out? (they're looking into going elsewhere, I can give faith to that, I've been asked several times if I've heard of offers outside Spain).

A.

[speedbird462]

I have just read on the national television news website that around 34% of the rostered ATCOs at Barcelona Control Centre were on sick leave today.
I am not particularly interested in the reasons for sickness but rather in the number of ATCOs rostered.
32 for en-route
14 for Approah
7 on standby
I am an approach controller myself and my question is:
do you need 14 Approach controllers for Barcelona for a morning shift? how many holds do you have and what are the complications of the airspace/conflicting traffic patterns that require 14 Approach controllers?
Please excuse me before hand if the information is not accurate and if so I would appreciate the right information.
Thanks!

[Denti]

If the spanish ATCOs are so unhappy about the working conditions as they claim to be there is not much left. Organize a strike, sick out or similar stuff or simply vote with your feet. With the salary you enjoyed in the last few years you all should have more than enough savings to survive a couple years while you can search for better jobs elsewhere. Of course that would lead to more short-term mayhem, but then there is a chance that spain might at some point get a 1st world ATC service and not the 3rd world one at double 1st world salaries they had until now.

[JW411]

So why doesn't the Spanish government just sack the whole lot of them and start all over again?

I can remember when Ronald Reagan got shot of a similar problem in the USA (where I was flying at the time based at JFK).

You will be astonished to learn that ATC in the USA absolutely blossomed as a result of this decision.

Does the Spanish government have the cojones to do the same thing?

From my point of view, I flew professionally for just over 50 years all over the world. I would have to say that the very best of Spanish ATC ability would just about equate with dealing with Addis Ababa, Cairo or Karachi on 8956 kcs at night on AM before SSB was invented in the 1960s.

I do not have one single piece of praise to offer in all the years that I had to suffer in Spanish ATC.

To quote a Mastercard joke "Probably the Worst".

[Tight Seat]

So 14 pages and nearly 35,000 views... Taking the hint yet?

[TBSC]

Someone close to those guys would advise us please why on earth they think that work to rule (= screwing hundreds of thousand pax and dozens of companies who are paying the big bill to Spain for their work) will help them and how long they wish to continue it (even if it's proved to be useless)?

Are we overloaded? Let's have fun with having the same number of airplanes (only 2-3 hrs later) in our airspace and let them be there for longer time - without directs - causing more work for ourselves. We can still be taken to the hospital at the end of the shift while millions of EUR is wasted for fuel/passenger convenience/crew duty time. But hey, that's not our money. Problem solved?

[calcagafo]

Hi Speedbird:

First I want to say hi to everybody, since I just registered and this is my first post.

I´ve only been working in Barcelona approach for 20 months, but here´s what I know with rwy 25R in service for landings and 25L for departures.

We have five sectors, two for initial approach and departures(one separates departing traffic going north and west and incoming traffic from the west, the other separates departing traffic going south and east and incoming traffic from the south), two feeders and one Final approach. One feeder also does the approach to LEGE(girona), this sector and final approach get three people each, the other three sectors are managed with the other 8 ATCO´s.

That´s (almost)3 atco´s per sector: one on frequency, one coordinator and one resting, we take turns every hour, wich makes 33% resting time and 66% working time.

There are 4 holds, two in the northern feeder(one for traffic coming from the west, the other one for traffic from the north ), and two in the southern feeder(south and east).

Hope this helped :O

How is it in London?

[heavy.airbourne]

Many pilots here seem to lack overall experience, otherwise they would stop complaining about a highly professional and highly efficient system: Going into PHL from the north, quite normal for European carriers, you will have to reach FL240 160NM out, 16.000 when 100NM. Look for that in Europe!

While cheapo airlines avoid paying 60 Euros for a dispatched flightplan by relying on automated dispatch systems, you do not have a reason to complain: You just get what you asked for. If you want more favourable routes, then go ahead and file proper flight plans. Any direct is a favour provided by professional services; I ask for it, I appreciate it, and I say a heartfelt thank you. ATC is not there to iron out inefficient operations of cheap airline ops. Stop punishing the messengers. All our airlines were the first to ask for the cheapest service possible. Now that we've got it, you are whining like little kids.:sad:

Professional pilots are paid for to do their jobs with the equipment and the services their employers are willing to provide, and professional pilots do their best within the environment provided, like the rest of the world, by the way. IMHO, this threat is a place where a bunch of alpha animals show that they are unable coming to terms with the world not turning along their lines. You most probably would fail the psych test at our joint. Grow up!

Many threats here on PPRuNe show that a majority is unhappy with us pilots not being able to get pay rates they think we deserve. Still, you show contempt for those still putting up a fight (this topic), and you view it as your God given right to play the blacklegs where other pilots try to save their collective agreement (e.g. Aerologic thread). You envy others their better terms, and that is the most selfish you can be. Lowly!

Even Maastricht acknowledges overloaded sectors, and you still complain about not getting a direct, which in most cases saves 1-2 miles, that is 10-20 seconds.:{
I would rather accept delays if traffic can be savely controlled that way than pushing controllers over the brink; had it several times (PMI, LOS, BKK) - ugly! But me thinks many here in this forum think they know it all, can do it all (by themselves), go eat some humble pie - you can tell those guys by flying thru ash clouds w/o reliable data, but high spirits and overconfidence will make another threat. It ain't very professional, though. :=

Now, go ahead and beat me!

(edited for typos - you find any, keep 'em!)

[go around flaps15]

Absolutely spot on Studi. I could'nt agree more.

[Surferboy]

Great post Heavy Airborne!

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Errr... not so great a post im afraid

Many pilots here seem to lack overall experience, otherwise they would stop complaining about a highly professional and highly efficient system: Going into PHL from the north, quite normal for European carriers, you will have to reach FL240 160NM out, 16.000 when 100NM. Look for that in Europe!

Happens every day in the UK although with all your experience you would know that....

FL330 by EXMOR, 200 @ OKTEM, 200 Abeam TNT, 120 25 Before POL.

All far from optimal....been discussed dozens of times on here

highly professional and highly efficient system

You been to Madrid? Took me 50 minutes to fly from Torejon to Barajas once :yuk:

I'll see your Philadelphia and raise you Le Bourget.....

Anyway that was fun back on topic......

[His dudeness]

Spot on, G-SPOT lost (not so lost then after all)

Exactly my thoughts when I read it. Going into Mannheim (EDFM) from the East you´ll be dropped down by Czech ATC and then the famous DFS at roughly a 160nm out, coming from the Southeast its 220 or below for the last 140 trackmiles etcetc. Or via Switzerland, sometimes I wonder why we don´t have to fly through a tunnel, that would allow them to allocate lower levels....

[Right Way Up]

While cheapo airlines avoid paying 60 Euros for a dispatched flightplan by relying on automated dispatch systems, you do not have a reason to complain: You just get what you asked for

So what pray would your dispatcher do to get round the whole of Spain being on a go slow? :rolleyes:

[andrijander]

It's on the news now, the government just announced that military controllers will cover when there are not enough civilian controllers (for what I gather it'll just be in specific days, say if there are too many sick as this weekend). Be careful what some of you ask for (Reagan style) you just got served:

El Gobierno habilitará a controladores militares para suplir a los civiles · ELPAÍS.com (http://www.elpais.com/articulo/economia/Gobierno/habilitara/controladores/militares/suplir/civiles/elpepueco/20100720elpepueco_2/Tes)

El Gobierno habilitará controladores militares para garantizar el tráfico aéreo | elmundo.es (http://www.elmundo.es/mundodinero/2010/07/20/economia/1279610439.html)

By the way, the ministry thinks they'll be ready in just 24 hours (as soon as they make it into position). Be scared, be very scared. I do not know them all, but have dealt with some in the past (through their association, SODECTA), and know of their shortcomings.

I wish you luck.

[wayupthere]

I always just think its funny they're just dumping more pollution on their own country (longer APU times longer flights etc etc) and in making more work for themselves to allow Mr Iberia land before any low-cost guys or not saying anything when some aircraft slows down very early to try and make other low-cost guys have to do go-arounds.
If your angry and want to do a go-slow, fine fire away but at least do them properly eh? :}

[McNulty]

Thats some good news finally, a step in the right direction. Hopefully its the foundations to eventually sacking all of the current spanish controllers and starting again with new systems and new ideas.

[matsATC]

Thats some good news finally, a step in the right direction.

Not so sure this is good news. Have a look at this article (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1973/1973%20-%200641.html) and lets hope those military controllers passed their ELPAC and have at least some experience with handling civilian traffic...

[andrijander]

Los controladores militares dicen que no están 'cualificados' para gestionar el tráfico civil | elmundo.es (http://www.elmundo.es/mundodinero/2010/07/20/economia/1279627028.html)

The military controllers trying to pull up from this sh!t. Basically themselves claim they're not up to it. Funny thing is they've been trying really hard to get better training and licensing for years, and now is when the politicians remember them.

Some years back there was a delegation of SODECTA visiting the Maastricht aviation exhibition (now is done in Amsterdam). Their delegates could barely make themselves understood and I had to translate everything. They were trying to get support for their TRG (they were tired of trying back at home, the colonels and generals would not divert money towards that i.s.o. using it in their private cars... all top range merc's btw). It was just before the approval at Brussels of the ESSAR5, they thought maybe that was an opportunity for them to improve their situation. It seems politicians thought otherwise.

A.

[speedbird462]

Hola Calcagafo!
Thanks for the info. It seems that our system in the UK is slightly different. Since you mentioned that you use two runways at Barcelona, I can only compare it to the Heathrow operation, similar 27L&R. There are also 4 stacks, two to the north of the field for inbounds from the north and two to the south for inbounds from the south. There are 5 positions: Intermediate Director South & Support, Intermediate Director North & Support & Final Director. INT North is the master director and runs the show, deciding the sequence. INT south works inbounds from the south following the sequence of INT north. Both INT directors feed the traffic to Final Director for final sequencing. The TMA area controllers work all of the departures except on an easterly configuration where INT south works departures that are in direct conflict with inbound traffic. During low-medium traffic (rare at EGLL), only two positions are manned INT (North+ South+Support) and Final director. But most of the time Heathrow Approach has 4 controllers on frequency. On a normal morning shift Heathrow has 5 or 6 controllers on duty to allow for breaks, mosty 30mins to 1hr and 30 mins off. Your procedures must be very different and complicated to require 14 controllers for a shift? There is quite a difference 14 to 6 and Heathrow handles a bit more traffic than Barcelona. I just wonder… and I hope this helps too.

On a different note, Mr Blanco has clearly no idea of how air traffic works and how long it takes to train and validate controllers!! All I can say is keep a good look out if military controllers get to control civil traffic in Spain!

[McNulty]

Not so sure this is good news. Have a look at this article (http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flightglobal.com%2Fpdfarchive%2Fview%2F 1973%2F1973%2520-%25200641.html&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Frumours-news%2F416995-spanish-atc-14.html) and lets hope those military controllers passed their ELPAC and have at least some experience with handling civilian traffic...

Thing is, it actually cant get any worse than it is in madrid now....in the last 9 months ive been vectored directly into a tcas ra and had wake turbulence 2 miles on final due to wonderful vectoring once again.

Bring in the military and fire anyone who isnt willing to do their job or is unable to do it.

[skywreck]

Britain is no different, we have a similar saying, "it's not what you know, but who you know" - There is a tendency by some individuals to always
see corruption and nepotism abroad while ignoring the unbeliable amount of corruption and nepotism at all levels here at home. Handshake, wink, wink.

[J.O.]

Watched with interest as yet again a Spanish flight was vectored close in front of us on a slam dunk into PMI tonight. Unfortunately they ended up being too high and did a go-around anyways. It was 15 minutes later before they landed. All could have been avoided with normal traffic vectoring in a normal sequence (i.e. first come - first served).

[calcagafo]

Hi there Speedbird:

I think I see how you work, all in all the procedures seem not that different:

what we here call approach includes the whole TMA (14 controllers, six of them on frequency).

Still, the main difference I see (and it´s a big one at that) is that here, for every controller on frequency there is another one monitoring his work in an adjacent screen, and doing the coordinations with the sectors involved (talking on telephone lines or just screaming :O ).

That makes, 6 on frequency, 6 coordinators and two on a break; changing positions every hour or so.

I understand you don´t have that coordination position?, and every controller on frequency is on his/her own?

Thanks for your support.

[calcagafo]

Hi ,
just a "mea culpa" note:

I´ve been working in Barcelona approach for less than 2 years, but I have to agree with you in this case;

I´ve seen a few controllers give priority to Spanish aircrafts over non spanish ones, I didn´t like it and told them so.

Most of the time is "the old guard" doing it.

I want to think that newcomers are a bit more aware of the service we should be providing and try to act accordingly.

Expect improvements in times to come ;)

On a different subject:

If you guys think we speak bad english, wait until you hear the military....

Greetings from the (almost)south

[McNulty]

Hi there Speedbird:

I think I see how you work, all in all the procedures seem not that different:


The differance in procedures and standards between the UK and Spain is extreme, and to be honest claiming that there is not much differance is a bit of an insult to the UK controllers....it would be like comparing professional footballers to your local amature pub team.

Speedbird - youre doing yourself an injustice comparing yourself and your highly professional colleagues to these imbeciles.

[Nightstop]

Hi Spanish ATCO's. Why won't you give us EAT's when we're instructed to hold? We require this information in order to comply with our fuel policy which states we can only burn into our Alternate fuel (and therefore commit to Destination) if our EAT is known. Vague replies such as "about twice around the EPINA/BUDOM holding pattern" aren't good enough....you DO have a plan, don't you :confused:

[calcagafo]

I can only speak for myself, but I do give EAT to each and every aircraft that has to hold over SLL,CLE, LESBA or VIBIM. (BCN TMA).

Mcnulty:

thanks for your opinion, we´ll try to improve (from imbeciles to plain idiots should be the first step :ok:)

[Tight Seat]

Calcagafo,

Sir you are coming across very well with your posts. A few more like you and we may well be in a better place whilst using Spanish airspace.
Keep up the good work.

[68+iou1]

Regarding EAT in BCN. I’ve had this discussion with an ATO over a few beers about six months ago. Apparently in the Spanish AIP they don’t have to give us a EAT if the hold is less than 20 min.
So I always carry 20 min extra fuel into BCN, frustrating? Yes!
Inefficient? Yes!
Spanish? Yes!

[Nightstop]

Interesting info that is 68+iou1 , but do you have a reference in the AIP for that?

[Data Dad]

68+iou1 wrote:

Regarding EAT in BCN. I’ve had this discussion with an ATO over a few beers about six months ago. Apparently in the Spanish AIP they don’t have to give us a EAT if the hold is less than 20 min.
So I always carry 20 min extra fuel into BCN, frustrating? Yes!
Inefficient? Yes!
Spanish? Yes!

Exactly the same in the UK - if the 'delay' is less than 20mins then EATs are not issued. See:

http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/aic/EG_Circ_2009_P_045_en.pdf

DD

[68+iou1]

Simple, it's 20 min extra to the UK as well.

Frustrating? Yes

Inefficient? Yes

Spanish? No

[demomonkey]

I have to say in defence of some of our Spanish cousins that ATC at BCN is significantly better than it has been in previous years and I think they are doing a very professional and safe job. If only you could install DATIS and PDC by ACARS I'd give you 5 stars! :D

If the BCN guys could also persuade your friends in MAD to drink the same Kool-Aid, I would feel alot less stress there too. One difference several colleagues have recognised is that in BCN the speed/tone of the ATCO is calm, confident and relaxed whereas in MAD (I'm thinking Ground/Apron frequencies in particular) it is often staccato / machine gun-like and panicked which leads to incorrect read-backs, repeats, uncertainties and mistakes.

As regarding home team favouritism, there will always be some of that. The local ATCO knows that the local pilot can safely accept a 'snatch' approach so that she/he can keep the landing rate optimised. What people don't like to see is being told to orbit 16nm out whilst the home team blatantly comes past you.

[JW411]

I do agree that BCN is a cut above the average but then, BCN is not really in Spain is it?

Long live Catalonia.

[LH2]

As I tried to get across, controllers in Spain are way overworked

They might well be, but that's hardly a new situation.

I've asked this before, but never got a reply:

How many hours was the average Spanish controller clocking say, back in 2008? How many nowadays?

The reason why I ask is because to my knowledge, at least a percentage of ATCOs have always been working far more hours and back-to-back shifts than would be considered safe and responsible, and that was by their own decision as until the recent changes they were in charge of setting their own schedules. Yet it appears that it's only when salaries are being cut that all of a sudden safety comes to mind.

I know in Spain those very reports (whatever they're called there) were not making it as far as they should

Confirmed. I was told by a knowledgeable AENA employee who I trust, not to bother filing any. This was on the occasion when my flight plan was closed after going on ALERFA--they decided, but never checked, that I must have landed on a (restricted, military) airport in France when in fact I had diverted back to LEGE and I was receiving a service from both BCN and LEGE.

As for the military controllers, I have had no interaction with the Spanish Air Force, but I confess I was impressed after my experience with their Navy. From what I've been told by someone from another, well respected European Navy, the Spanish military got a lot more capable in recent times, after joining NATO (yes, I know this was over 20 years ago, but armies don't change overnight).

In any event, their latest little circus is plainly immature and not exactly confidence-inspiring.

[foxcharliep2]

jw411 : BCN is not really in Spain is it?

Long live Catalonia.


Is that your best intellectual contribution to the thread - at least in MAD Barajas they know how to celebrate Spain & the champions .......
Long live the Spanish national team - which happens to have some great contributions from the Catalans as well - see, it works fine, no need to poison things ........ :ok:

"Iberia 2801, el avión de los campeones" (http://www.elpais.com/audios/deportes/Iberia/2801/avion/campeones/elpauddep/20100721elpepudep_1/Aes/)

[biffo28]

Couldn't make it up lol!

Whispering Giant -"Just wish some of there controller's could speak proper English. . . "

[samotnik]

The controller denied him start, and told him that he had to re-file (for another massive delay). The aircraft in question just couldn't believe it - and assured the controller he could be at the holding point in 8 minutes or so and that he would be reporting him.

HunderPercent, be aware that there is a number of pilots everyday, that are just lying in order to fool the ATC that they can make the slot while they know they can't. I'm an ATCo who does his best to get you airborne, sometimes even slightly outside your CTOT window. But yesterday a crew asked for startup precisely at CTOT (relatively small aerodrome, pushback+taxi time is 10min). I asked if they can make it. Yes, they do. OK, so startup approved, expedite due slot. Well, the aircraft was pushed back ten minutes later (so the slot window was just about to end), whereas it takes usually 2-3min. OK, I thought, maybe there was some unexpected problem, hell, gave them clearance to taxi. Wow, a slow grass-cutting tractor going the same direction had overtaken them with twice their speed! No mention that there were several aircraft taxiing behind. No apparent reaction to expedite request, so finally they arrived at the holding point 12min after CTOT window. And yes, I did clear them for takeoff, because I think that aircraft with engines running should get airborne. But I broke all the rules this way. I don't like this, because my duty is to obey them, that's what I get paid for. So it's you (or some of you) who ruin the trust. For the next few shifts I will be very suspicious of crews declaring that they 'can make it'. And maybe next time I will return somebody to the gate.

BTW, there are (huge and well-known) airlines, that apparently don't experience this problems while operating in the very same environment. They always make the slot and if not, they don't discuss and get themselves a delay to EOBT and accept the new slot. German precision?

[Microburst2002]

to 411W

So far, spanish ATC is spanish and covers the entire spanish territory, including that wonderful land to the north east, Catalonia.

There are not many more catalonian ATCOs in BCN than in other airports.
So far.
By the way, where are you from, sir? the "united" kingdom, perhaps?

To the spanish ATC haters:

It is true that many ATCs are better than spanish. But the difference is not so so big. The only air miss i have had was near london, and due to incorrect ATC procedures according to the reports. In germany, several go arounds, one of them after 15 min being told "high speed, number one" but in the end we were only the number one second traffic. Most of the ATC inconveniences I have had occurred outside spain.
In many places around Europe and beyod I have been holding without knowing my EAT. Come on, are you kidding me guys? This only happens in Spain?

To the other union busters and neoliberals, neofascists, etc...

Why not just make an overhaul to democracy. We could elimiate all rights, first, and then grant them one by one, little by little to those who are more obedient. Not for the trouble makers who dare to earn money without having capital in the first place!
The armed forces and a tough police would be very useful for that. They could take over most of the funcions, including justice and press.

To all the europeans north of the Pirenee

given the actual economic situation. Please go to the streets and demand your goverments to expell Spain from the UE, the Euro and everything.
Please, please, do it. I beg you!
We don't deserve to be in the same political structure as you, my dear europeans.

See you in the beaches of Spain!

[DjerbaDevil]

Quoting speedbird462:
On a normal morning shift Heathrow has 5 or 6 controllers on duty to allow for breaks, mosty 30mins to 1hr and 30 mins off. Your procedures must be very different and complicated to require 14 controllers for a shift? There is quite a difference 14 to 6 and Heathrow handles a bit more traffic than Barcelona.


The above would seem to question the stress and strain the new duties, that Spanish ATC say are adversely affecting their health and making them go on sick leave. According to the Spanish press the number of working days of sick leave that has been taken monthly since January 2010 are a follows:
January 2010: 1,211 days of sick leave
February 2010: 1,268 days of sick leave
(New law on ATCs' T&Cs signed in Parliament)
March 2010: 2,295 days of sick leave
April 2010: 2,778 days of sick leave
May 2010: 3,458 days of sick leave
June 2010: 4,315 days of sick leave
July 2010: 3,159 days of sick leave *(up to 18 July 2010)
Projection to 31 July = 5,760 days sick leave

August 2010 - should be quite interesting.....

There are 2,300 ATCs in Spain and 4,000 in France...........How many are there in the United Kingdom? Does anyone have the answer?

In 2009 the average number of hours worked by the Spanish ATC was 1,750 (some did more and some less obviously) and about 550 hours of those 1,750 were being put in as overtime hours, as it was the ATCs who controlled and set the duty hours. The new law has increased their minimum duty hours of 1,200 per year to the average they worked in 2009 of 1,750 hours. They are not working any more or less hours than they did in 2009 but with the difference that the 550 hours overtime (average) they worked last year at nearly three times the normal working hourly rate, is included in their normal yearly salary of about 200,000 Euros.

It seems it was less stressful and painful for the Spanish ATCs to do the extra 550 hours in 2009, when these hours were being paid at a premium rate.... and their yearly average salaries were over 300,000 Euros. Some Spanish ATCs took as much as 900,000 Euros home in 2009........

All the above is according to the Spanish press, which is unanimous in its basic information and quoting official sources.......

[Right Way Up]

So over to Spanish ATCOs,

Could you enlighten us with your monthly duty hours & take home pay?

[calcagafo]

I can only tell you about myself (in Barcelona ACC)

It varies a lot, but it´s between 4500 and 6000 euro for 160 to 200 hours a month (24 to 28 days a month)....
Far from the data the government is giving to the media.

Most of us think they are plotting against us as an excuse to privatize?? the ATC bussiness:{

We´ll see...

[Artie Fufkin]

Re Spanish Military controllers...

Am I right in thinking that MJV is a military airfield, with military ATC? Heaven help us if they are let loose anywhere else. Without doubt the worst ATC in Spain.

And as for BCN; we had to organise our own speed / seperation on final today with the aircraft in front. We were instructed to maintain 180kts, with the aircraft 2 miles in front (!) doing 120kts. Hardly the cream.

If the working hours / conditions for Spanish ATC are as bad as has been reported then I do have sympathy. However, after years of witnessing Spain's below par ATC service, it is obvious a radical solution is long overdue.

[plain-plane]

MJV, not that bad...:ugh: try ZAZ...:yuk::yuk:

[lederhosen]

Actual exchange in Palma with delivery recently went as follows after around two hour slot delay.

Yes I know it is minus five plus ten minutes. But that is only if we (delivery) feel like it and we do not. There is no one at the holding point so taxi time plus push back is fifteen minutes. Call me exactly fifteen minutes before your slot.

This kind of behaviour is why pilots are less than sympathetic to Spanish controllers.

[kick the tires]

Lederhosen is right. I offer no support or sympathy to ATC; they just dont realise that we are NOT the enemy.

Such childish actions he describes do nothing but create ill feelings and anger. It really is petty and childish.

I will smile when they are defeated!

[Surferboy]

@ kick the tires: And would that be ATC in general? If so, maybe you should start realizing that ATC also isn't the enemy here. I can't speak for the Spanish cases, but there is almost always a viable reason for any decision from ATC-side you don't like.

The Spanish ATCo is following the rules his company sets, the guideline is to let flights depart as close to there CTOT as possible to get the best effect 'Flow-wise'. The -5 and +10 are purely to give them a bit of room for sequence purposes.

Same applies to your side, lots of pilots reducing to 250kts below FL100 even if i tell them to keep a certain speed. (In class A airspace this is) Most of the times they won't even inform me, wich can be quite a pain in the bottom if you are sequencing tight.

I understand that you (pilots in general) have to follow SOP's, but so do controllers. And yes there are a lot of pilots who do keep the speed up untill advised even if their SOPs state otherwise. But there are also a lot of controllers who will go out of their way to get you airborne at CTOT -5. But this is not anything that can be expected, or demanded.

[Denti]

@surferboy: The spanish are not simply following rules as most ATCOs do, they bend them to suit their purpose which is currently to harm aviation as much as they can. It is as simple as that. It is not about safety, never was as they do not even know how to spell that word in the first place.

[lederhosen]

Surferboy as a northern european controller you cannot be expected to know first hand what is happening in Spain. Some more examples:

Transavia asks for a ready message. One hour later he calls Palma delivery because when calling the company he finds out that the ready message was never sent. Condor then discovers the same.

Another aircraft asks for a ready message and is given some garbled response that a ready message is only possible thirty minutes before EOBT, this with a slot delay of ninety minutes.

Several aircraft are told ten minutes before CTOT that they are too late and must call their company for another slot.

Now all of these things can happen.....but within a two hour period?

[Nightstop]

If that's the case lederhosen I suggest you file a report, called a Denuncia, with the Guardia Civil. A few arrests and trials with guilty verdicts for lying during the provision of a public service might put a stop to that kind of nonsense. Spain's getting pretty hot on that type of offence now :=

[Rod Eddington]

Nightstop,

Brilliant, Where can we get hold of the appropriate forms? I think we'll all need several copies!

[p_perez]

Have a look!

http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=5826552#post5826552

¡Saludos!

[lederhosen]

That is indeed very interesting information nightstop. I have no objection to spanish controllers fighting their corner. Staging a sickout and forcing their employer to pay huge sums in overtime is an example of one tactic which may work. However the kind of behaviour we have been seeing recently and I have been to Spain three times this week is rapidly losing any sympathy you might have from us pilots.

[JW411]

Surferboy:

250 Knots at 10,000 feet.

Some aircraft have a good reason for being back at 250 Knots at 10,000 feet. For example, the BAe146 series of aircraft are limited to 250 Knots at 8,000 feet (and below).

This is an airframe limitation and it relates to the ability of the windscreens to absorb a bird strike below 8,000 feet.

[Roffa]

There are 2,300 ATCs in Spain and 4,000 in France...........How many are there in the United Kingdom? Does anyone have the answer?

NATS, (http://www.nats.co.uk/) the largest atco employer in the UK, had an average 2,003 controllers in the 09-10 year (taken from the annual report).

Minor nit picking on speedbird's Heathrow Approach manning numbers. There are meant to be 7 controllers rostered for a normal morning shift, not 5 or 6.

[His dudeness]

@JW411: yes, most airframes have a "dent" in Vmo at 8000ft. Certification rules say: birds only up to 8.000ft. BUT, there the ATCO is right, when he tells me to keep high speed and that is above what I can OR want to fly I tell him, pronto. Any pilot/crew not doing so has either a proficiency or attitude prob.

"I understand that you (pilots in general) have to follow SOP's, but so do controllers. And yes there are a lot of pilots who do keep the speed up untill advised even if their SOPs state otherwise. But there are also a lot of controllers who will go out of their way to get you airborne at CTOT -5. But this is not anything that can be expected, or demanded."

How may times you think I was at the hold, say, number 3 at the exact slot time and wasn´t being allowed to takeoff? So we can´t demand/expect nothing at all, but then, we are allowed to pay for that? Is that what you are saying?

Years ago, when all this slot s.h.i.t.e. was introduced, I had a meeting with the german agency (DFS) Since I was apparently the only GA/Airtaxi person ever to contact and protest against that stuff, I received the big treatment: coffee, biscuits and roughly 8 guys from various paarts of the DFS, airspace planners, actual atcos, head of press department, you name it.
THEY told me: look, we know there is way to many things that can and do get wrong in dispatch/ground handling, we always will use the -5/+10 in your favour and thats why WE fought the +/-2 minutes Eurocontrol had in mind.

Now, as a coorperate airplane (and sometimes air taxi) pilot I do suffer from the fact, that our pax are not caged at a gate for 20-30 minutes and passed onto the airplane when more or less convinient. We sometimes wait hours for fuel, because the airlines take preceedence at the bowsers.
The stress level on flights with regulations is way higher than on flights without (many of us don´t have a backoffice, I certainly don´t, which means: deal with all the stuff)

The makers of restrictions have it easy: they just place it into system, period. Deal with it, you little s.h.i.t.t.y. pilot I could not care less about your problems etcetc. (e.g.taxi times on big airports change a lot, wether it takes that time to taxi out or not seems not to feed into the system at all) [yes I´m being cynical...]

So the situation is bad enough already, with all the sympathy I have for the gentlemen of the spanish or french or what ever air traffic control company they are from, for their work conflicts [surely there are things to fight for, the spanish work schedules look....tiring to say the least], but being the anvil in their struggle is NOT a nice feeling. I can´t do anything about it.

Let the King wait 3 hours, the prime minister or state guests.

That would change things quickly. But you haven´t got the guts to do that, have you? THEY could strike back, but low life foreigners? Let them suffer!!!

[I wouldn´t do that either with your wages and pensions to be lost - seriously! I just wan´t you to understand that we can´t change it for you]

Being the person responsible to clear the bills from eurocontrol I do know exactly what we pay for something that I often would not describe as service.

I´ve got no spain/france trips for the next 5 weeks!!! There surely is a god somewhere... :}

[Surferboy]

@ JW411: I am aware of the aircraft limitations of RJ1H/RJ85/Bae146/E190 etc. I was however talking about A320-series and B737-series from various operators who will not say anything when they reduce from 300+ kts to 250kts when i've told them (at least 1 time) 'Keep speed xxxkts or greater until advised, also below FL100'

@ His Dudeness:

"How may times you think I was at the hold, say, number 3 at the exact slot time and wasn´t being allowed to takeoff? So we can´t demand/expect nothing at all, but then, we are allowed to pay for that? Is that what you are saying?"

No that is not what i'm saying, I was only saying you can't demand to depart @ CTOT -5 if you are ready and waiting. The aim of slots and Flowcontrol is to depart exactly at that calculated takeoff time or as close as possible, with a small window to enable outbound sequencing at the rwy. You can see it as sh*t, but maybe what you need is a visit to a larger and busier centre during an Inbound-rush.

[lederhosen]

Anybody else sense a bit of thread drift? the story so far:

The mean spanish government has decided that air trafic controllers in Spain are a soft target and are hell bent on implementing change.

The plucky controllers are winning the hearts and minds of their friends the pilots and passengers by working to rule.

Anyone who does not agree is a fascist and does not understand that innocent people occasionally get hurt in a war.

.................

The (alternate universe) other view is that Spain along with much of europe is essentially bankrupt. The controllers have been onto a nice little number where some of them have been earning a lot of money and not providing a particularly good service.

When faced with a government determined to push through change the controllers have started behaving like soldiers in Vietnam and got a bit confused about who is the enemy, remember the village scene in Platoon?

Rather than fighting a disciplined campaign they are playing right into the hands of the spanish government. If they carry on as they are doing the end result will be the same as for the americans in Vietnam.

[TSR2]

Projection to 31 July = 5,760 days sick leave

That's 186 controllers off work sick every day which equates to 8% of the workforce.

[Nightstop]

https://www.policia.es/denuncias/

[teddyman]

Heard on the radio in Spain. ATC -"Maintain assigned level". Pilot -"Request further climb". -"Negative you are filed on that level why don`t you file a higher level on your flightplan. You should know better" Pilot -"Request any directs" Spanish ATC" Neagtive. Due to AENA directives STD routing"
Who cares about enviroment? :eek:

Heard on the radio in Germany "Cleared direct to Olben" This was from far away from the Swiss border going south so the German ATC can give direts. :ok: The Spanish Not? :confused:

Heard on Swedish ATC. Pilot "Request further climb". ATC "What level do you want?" Pilot "FL 410". Swedsih ATC directly says "Climb FL 410"

Thanks to all controllers in Europe who understand the symbiosis between ATC and Pilots! Spanish controllers excluded. :ok:

Heard on the radio in Spain. (Not in BCN or MAD, where they speak Spanish all the time. Except to foreign A/C. So all this BS about not needing to knoe the information falls) "Since your slot is at 15.35 and the time now is 15.28 you have missed your slot and you can not push" Puzzled pilot answers " Do we not have a 10 min window after the CTOT?" Spanish ATC answers (in a very superior voice) "You do not know the rules and you should know better, contact your company for a new slot"
Pilot says "I am sure we can make it within the window" ATC "No it is up to me to decide" Even more puzzled pilot asks humbly "Maybe you can help me?" Spanish ATC " No it is not my job! Cotact your company" :mad:

Heard on the radio in England. "Request push and start" this was 15 min before CTOT:eek: "You are cleared to push and start" Guess what? There was no sequencing, only one A/C at the airport (the one taking off) and they got airborne 5 min before their CTOT. For all you non ATC/Pilots I tell you that for 30 years this has always been the case and the rules have not changed.

To all pilots I just say. Take it easy, do not get angry. Remember, the first persons to the accident site are the pilots. Do not take the anger with you on flightdeck. When the controllers get upset they take an extra coffee and take their rest. Play the game.

This is the reality in Spain at the moment. Very sad.....:ugh:

To all controllers in Spain I just say. The rules do not prohibit you from letting a/c go 5 min early or 10 min late. Maybe it is all the controllers in Europe that are wrong and you are the only ones who know the rules. :=

Good luck out there and be positive:cool:

[411A]

-"Negative you are filed on that level why don`t you file a higher level on your flightplan. You should know better"

And, indeed the pilot should.
Follow the plot...and stop giving the ATC folks on the ground a hard time.

Some pilots never learn.:ugh::ugh:

[Spunky Monkey]

As my grandmother used to say...

"The fat yank in the corner, should never open his mouth and confirm his stupidity, rather keep people guessing". You obviously have no understanding of what is going on here.

I was in Palma yesterday, when the ATC caused complete and utter confusion on the ground. It was impressive how people kept their cool with such obvious militant jobs-worths.

We were limited to FL 240 for 100NM when we had flight planned at FL380. So how is that keeping to the flight plan?

Your pearl of righteous wisdom is not required.

[Surferboy]

Pilot -"Request any directs"

To be quite honest, I can get a bit irritated with those requests. The decision to give a direct is a decision made by the controller and only by the controller. I can have tons of reasons for not giving a direct:

- If the Spanish controller is right and AENA has forbidden the use of directs, I would also think twice...rather not lose my job over something as stupid as a dct. (How much does it actually save? 30 sec, 2 min if you get a very good one? And how much airborne delay do you get when arriving at the destination, where they have to reduce you and vector you around 'cause you're right in the middle of a bunch wich you could have avoided when not flying dct)

- Workload, the controller is the one that has an overview of the current traffic situation. And in most cases sending anyone direct will directly increase the workload. (Much more conflicts when sending anyone direct)

Therefore it is his (or her) decision to send you, keeping in mind traffic that you might not even hear on the frequency, traffic that is coming on freq. in a few minutes or for instance crossing of other airspace than the ones you filed in. (That controller doesn't know you, so there could be up to 6 phonecalls to be made before you can cut let's say 3 miles off of you original route.)

- Military activity, I can only give you direct when I have it available!

This is not to defend what is going on in Spain, 'cause I haven't got a clue, I don't fly there. But it is just to let you see that giving a direct is not just at the controllers whim, and when it is, it's also (most of the time) thought through.

Saw a post from someone a while ago, went something like this:

Every flight is a possible mayday, and maydays equal a lot of paperwork. I don't like paperwork, so the sooner you leave my airspace the sooner you are someone else's possible mayday. Therefore I always try to minimise your time in my bit of airspace, so if I can...you WILL get the direct. So please stop 'requesting' directs.

[Gonzo]

Heard on the radio in Spain. (Not in BCN or MAD, where they speak Spanish all the time. Except to foreign A/C. So all this BS about not needing to knoe the information falls) "Since your slot is at 15.35 and the time now is 15.28 you have missed your slot and you can not push" Puzzled pilot answers " Do we not have a 10 min window after the CTOT?" Spanish ATC answers (in a very superior voice) "You do not know the rules and you should know better, contact your company for a new slot"
Pilot says "I am sure we can make it within the window" ATC "No it is up to me to decide" Even more puzzled pilot asks humbly "Maybe you can help me?" Spanish ATC " No it is not my job! Cotact your company" http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

Heard on the radio in England. "Request push and start" this was 15 min before CTOThttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif "You are cleared to push and start" Guess what? There was no sequencing, only one A/C at the airport (the one taking off) and they got airborne 5 min before their CTOT. For all you non ATC/Pilots I tell you that for 30 years this has always been the case and the rules have not changed.



Not sure what your point is here.......are you comparing the two ?

[eagerbeaver1]

Gonzo - Not sure what your point is?

teddyman - happens to me frequently. Absolute disgrace. I know Spanish ATC(O) don't care.

I don't think it is reasonable for AENA employees to behave (professionally) in this manner. Spain is on its arse - perhaps you should all be trying to dig yourselves out of this pickle?

[His dudeness]

We were limited to FL 240 for 100NM when we had flight planned at FL380. So how is that keeping to the flight plan?

Exactly.

@411A: I understand a Tristar is the best aircraft in the world and probably the best you can have to pass through, say, an actve CB or turbulence.
I for one do not fly a tristar, so I prefer not to stay in turbulence or fly through a CB. The fact that you apparently don´t know that conditions can be quite different from forecasts tells alot about your superior airmanship. As a non-airline pilot I can only guess, but still I think FPLs are not made by pilots and usually they check in an hour or maybe 1,5 hrs prior to flight. A time at which changing your plan makes it a latefile, with the consequence of being the last in the line should a restriction come up.

Some 'pilots' indeed never learn. :ugh:

[Gonzo]

Well, the +10 window is for variation in 'real-life' taxi time, other causes of operational friction, and finally ATC sequencing at the holding point. Operators should conduct all planning on the CTOT, not CTOT +10. That's what leads to poor slot adherence and ATC capacity issues.

In the Spanish example, who is to say that nearly every outbound didn't have their own CTOTs? Maybe they had additional restrictions in place too? Perhaps some taxiway closures that made the 7 minutes until the CTOT unrealistic? Perhaps there were aircraft pushing back/about to push back nearby that would delay this aircraft's own push back? You really don't want to start an aircraft only for it to not make the CTOT, because then you have an aircraft out near the ruwnay with what might turn out to be an hour's, or more, delay with all the increased workload that entails.

Could that aircraft physically have made it to the runway in 7 minutes? Possibly. Perhaps only if every other aircraft on the airfield was stopped to give way to it. I've denied start to many flights before in this situation, as an ATCO you have to balance the need of the few against the need of the many. Sometimes your judgement is that it isn't worth it. You could stop everything for 5 mins to get this one flight out on it's CTOT, but nobody would get anywhere if we treated all flights like this.

Where I work, I'd be very unlikely to give start to an aircraft 7 minutes away from the CTOT unless it was dead, i.e. no more than one at the holding point.

Each airfield will have it's own taxi time, and if the aircraft does not call ready CTOT -taxi time then technically, yes, it is the operator's responsiblity to send a DLA message and get a new CTOT, not ATC's. Granted, ATC usually do it in my experience, but that's what the rules say.

If you call early, yes, we will use the -5 mins, but that is sensible, because there's the window after that CTOT -5.

At the end of the day, you cannot compare two completely different airfields in what would probably be two completely different traffic/delay scenarios.

That was my point.

[lederhosen]

The debate splits pretty evenly between those that have to fly to Spain and those that are lucky enough not to.

This is not about CTOTs or flight levels it is about the spanish controllers being bloody minded to pilots as part of their work to rule. If you sit in a dark room somewhere in northern europe you may be expected to be sympathetic to your colleagues in Spain. My point is that they are being needlessly confrontational with pilots who are not the enemy, but will increasingly become so if they continue in the same vein.

According to the spanish government the average pay was over 300,000 euros per controller in 2009, with 28 earning over 700,000 and just two on 90,000. The only guy who has responded to this with alternate figures seems to be one of the unlucky two. The rest have kept very quiet. Sure the government is playing propaganda. But other than Perez producing a roster for August which seems to show management responding to the sickout (in excess of 10 percent in July) nobody has been very convincing on the controller side.

Put your side of the debate more convincingly and maybe we can help each other. Continue with the confrontation (with pilots) and we will start finding ways to respond like Nightstop's suggestion.

[kick the tires]

Gonzo,

Perhaps you can explain this to me....

I have a CTOT and I get to the hold for 36R in Madrid. There are 5 aircraft ahead of us, all Iberia. However, instead of putting us to Y2 or Y3 ( an intersection approx one or two hundred metres up from the end, we are told to queue behind Iberia. When I reminded him of our slot, his reply ' don't worry, we have and extension!' an extension until all the Iberia have taken off before us.

And before you ask, no, they didn't all have slots!

[samotnik]

And before you ask, no, they didn't all have slots!

How do you know?

[kick the tires]

Because ATC said they didn't when we asked. After which we heard a Spanish pilot say 'keep the foreigners at the back'. Charming.

Surprisingly, some of us DO speak the local language!

Now samotnik, what would you like to contribute to this thread?

[ant1]

lederhosen, the government is not reacting to anything. Controllers are going on sick leave because of the stress caused by the new roster patterns and nazi tactics the government are using.

Since you like generalizations such as Spanish ATC is bad how about this one: German pilots are confrontational.

KTT, are you sure any of you had a working knowledge of Spanish? Never heard such purposes on the frequency or in the cockpit.

I understand that companies with tight turnaround schedules only achievable in a perfect world are bound to be the more upset by the current situation.

[Microburst2002]

LEDERHOSEN

nice post. I love the paralelism with platoon!

I am not saying that this situation is not creating a lot of problems to a lot of people. I am not saying that spanish ATC have not enjoyed very very very good terms and conditions in their job. I am not saying that spanish ATC has a high standard.

But the ones to dropped the atomic bomb on the spanish ATC have been the government ones, and not because they want the ATC to be better, and with reasonable terms and conditions. They did it because they want to go to total war. They expect to win it, and to use it for other purposes. Before the "bomb" the ATCOs made quite reasonable proposals with very substansial changes on their salaries. But the government wants blood and war.

Royal decrees are not the way to do things. They can do the same with anyone else tomorrow. Actually, they did something similar with IBE pilots years ago. They were forbidden by law to go on strike to a period of 4 years, and had to accept a set of conditions arbitrarily decided by a "referee". Of course, there was work to rule and similar things, but their rights were effectively eliminated. Elimination of rights is a fascist way of solving problems. That's what I think.

The ATCos are defending themselves, but they have little to do. They are doomed whatever they do, no matter how much they resist. The problem is that some ATCOs are under a great deal of pressure and that is no good.

Soon the ATC will see the same nonsense and inefficient situation as pilots face nowadays, and we will even see pay to control ATCOs. That is sad.
The spanish having their salaries and conditions reduced to a reasonable level, that's good. 1,000 people wasting a lot of money to get a ATCo license when only 100 will be required is absolutely inefficient and useless.
The previous situation was not fair, but the situation to come will not be fair, either, and the only benefited from the change will the same as always, the big fishes, not the ordinary people.

The government selling the spanish airports for peanuts to their friends... That's a robbery, and this is what will happen, the ATCos being used as a very handy excuse.

[kick the tires]

ANT1,

My Spanish is not brilliant however my First Officers is - he is a Spanish national, who was both embarrassed and disgusted by both parties.

Sadly, there was no doubt.

[lederhosen]

Well Microburst we can certainly agree on most of that. My point is you could do this without completely alienating us the pilots.

[ant1]

KTT, granted it is true, I would take it a disgraceful exception of which I am myself ashamed.

[Gonzo]

I don't know as I wasn't there, but it's conceivable that ATC did get you an extension from either the Spanish FMP or from CFMU direct, depending on where the regulation was. If the extension had been given, why would you assume that you should depart ahead of other aicraft?

Also, What SIDs were you and the others on? What SIDs are coming out after you? What departure separations are there from that runway? Were there any flow restrictions such as MDIs/ADIs in force? What wake vortex category were all the a/c involved? What speed group were all the aircraft? What type were all the aircraft? What were the start approval times/start request times for all the aircraft? Any noise abatement issues? Any separation issues with other airports/runways? What was the filed speed of all the aircraft? What was the filed level of all the aircraft? Any temporary airspace closures? Any problems at the centre which might cause one or more SIDs to catch a delay? Were there any impending events such as runway inspection/taxiway closures/airspace closures coming up? Were there any ground movement control issues about keeping you at the intersection for a few minutes? Were there any GMC issues that meant it was better for you to go from the full length?

When I'm doing departures, this is what I'm thinking of, and more. Once I know that I will get you away in the CTOT window (including any extension, which I probably won't tell you about to be honest), then I attempt to get the greatest number of aircraft away in thew shortest possible time. That might mean you getting airborne at the very end of the window.

[Nightstop]

Interesting Spanish TV feature today, Sunday morning, featuring Snr Blanco, a female ATCO (nice kitchen BTW....) and a representative of the Spanish ATCO's Union. It also showed a military ATC room which looked like something from 1936-9, hope their guys/girls really don't start attempting Civil ATC..it'll be a disaster for sure :{

[411A]

We were limited to FL 240 for 100NM when we had flight planned at FL380. So how is that keeping to the flight plan?


So, you received a long step climb, so what?
You're certainly not the only airplane in the sky at that particular moment, others share the airspace as well....so get used to it.
Oh, boo hoo...:{

Years ago, BA was enroute over Iran, restricted to FL240 due to traffic.
BA complained, said they had to land if a higher level was not available.
Tehran ATC mentioned the fuel price at THR, and issued descent instructions.
BA declined...and shut up.

Pilots will just have to learn to plan for contingencies, instead of always expecting short cuts/direct routings/higher levels.
To do otherwise is unprofessional...seemingly the norm these days in Euroland, from some of the complaints noted here.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

411A

For all your experience you really have no idea whats happening in Europe right now so to stop you looking stupid it might be an idea to keep your anecdotes and smartass comments to yourself....Its not you that got home 2 hours late last night for a straightforward out and back

ITS SIMPLE......

Spanish ATC are using crews/aircraft/passengers as pawns in their little game of chess with the Spanish Government.

Theres very little point in discussing CTOT's, Levels, speeds operationally ATC in every nation will forever just play the "operational" card and trump whatever reasonable arguement you make....ATC conveniently forget that we've had flexibility regarding levels/CTOT-5+10/Direct routings for TEN YEARS even through the boom times of 2007/2008 when there was much more traffic about.

I got let go from AGP yesterday at CTOT -7, I then had to fly the full departure going 20 odd miles in the wrong direction and subsequently flew over every single waypoint on my flightplan zigzagging my way across the continent.

Now whilst grateful for the early release theres no consistency regarding making certain sectors at certain levels and according to flow regulations. SO the tower guy lets me goes early (Thanks) and when transferred to the guy downstairs make me fly 60 miles out of my way - wheres the efficiency in that?

We got asked to climb on un864 because of opposite direction traffic, I asked for direct mont d'aree if I would he declined so I did as well. I was bloody ashamed afterwards but its getting that stupid.

They're bullying the people that cant fight back, ironically if I thought their action would do any good I'd put up with it, they're wasting our time for no reason

[kontrolor]

on the other hand - how else should they fight back?

[Mikehotel152]

With greatest respect, the reliance on quoting a plethora of rules to explain away the awful behaviour of Spanish ATC in recent weeks simply makes certain people appear like proverbial ostriches with heads firmly below terra firma. It's disingenuous in the extreme to pretend that Spanish ATC are merely enforcing rules in order to expediate traffic flow safely.

The service on the ground in places like Malaga and Palma, and in the air in Madrid and Barcelona FIRs, in recent weeks has been truly embarrassing for Spain. If you don't believe me, why don't you organise a group outing to somewhere like London and Gatwick airport and see how the professionals manage to combine common-sense, helpfulness, consideration with the rules to expedite the safe flow of traffic.

I imagine I am not alone in never having flown a full FPL route and STAR into Stansted or Gatwick or a SID outbound, yet their controllers manage to handle huge volumes of traffic without pausing for breath!

Thank goodness I'm rostered to fly around northern Europe tomorrow. I'll bet you the shirt off my back that I don't fly the full SID, get a number of unprompted shortcuts, the flight level I request despite the more conservative FPL FL, and get a 500nm direct from one side of Europe to the other before getting a direct to centre-fix...just like we used to get in Spanish airspace!

MH152

[wayupthere]

Actual recent conversation with BCN radar while leaving their airspace (we were filed at fl350)
Starts at Fl290 over 150nm miles after take off having been at fl290 for quite a while..
Me, BCN is the traffic 18nm ahead of us the reason we cant climb?
BCN, Sir there is no traffic 18nm ahead of you what level are you filed?
A very confused me double checking the TCAS, We are filed at FL350.
BCN, Ok climb FL350 why didnt you ask?
Me, Decided to stay quiet
A few seconds later
BCN, turn right 20 degrees due traffic at your 12 o clock 17nm ahead.
Me :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Good job guys I fully support your claim to 200k a year :ok:

[Cernicalo]

Wayupthere,

Of course seems to be quite awful what happened to you. Let me show a part of a message from pperez the the following link, and answer me, if your case could be maybe caused because some controlllers are working 15 days with no days off, or having 4 days off in a complete month.

Or maybe this is not the case...

You will see more clearly directly in the original post:
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416439-atc-situation-spain-4.html


AENA published the rosters for august last july 21th, applying the new 10-day notice for Spanish ATCO´s. And here is an example:
Vacation
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
1500->2200
0800->1500
Day off
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
Day off
1500->2200
1500->2200
1500->2200
0800->1500
Day off
Day off
0800->1500
1500->2200
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
1500->2200
0800->1500
0800->1500
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
0800->1500
0800->1500
0800->1500
It sums 194 hrs. in 30 days, with only 4 days off. Notice the last 14 days working in a row, with no day off.



Yet another example:
Day off
1500->2200
"0700->0830" (he must be on call in this period, if needed, he has to work from the moment he gets the call->1500)
0800->1500
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
1500->2200
Day off
0800->1500
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
Day off
1500->2200
0800->1500
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
Day off
1500->2200
1500->2200
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
Day off
1500->2200
1500->2200
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
In this case, 191,4 hrs. with the chance of becoming 198 hrs. if he gets the call on the 3rd, which is highly probable.

In both cases, you get a 33% rest (sleep) from 2200->0800, and a 25% on remainder periods. Times are local, not UTC.

[Admiral346]

I am with you, make it expensive to fly Spain, more expensive than to pay you right. And just because someone else gets paid less is no reason at all to not demand the pay you always have gotten and deserve.

Don't give in to the "globalization" of wages, just so some manager or politician can stuff his pockets with money.

i am with you,

Nic

[G-SPOTs Lost]

kontrolor on the other hand - how else should they fight back?

They cant fight back, they earn five times what they should do, Spain is broke as a nation and they wont win, they have no public support, if they do strike they wont have public support because they earn 20 times the national average whilst at the same time spanish people are looking at pay freezes and public sector redundancies.

They wont get any sympathy from crews because of our experiences both in the past and because how they're conducting themselves at the moment.

Rock / Hard Place - unless the government acts to either give in or sack the militant ones the status quo will no doubt continue.

Going to be a long winter

[411A]

Spain is broke as a nation and they wont win,

Wanna bet?
They seem to be 'winning' now with ATC, getting all the stiff upper-lipper Brits in a huff.

To bad for them.
Uplift more fuel and carry on...regardless.

NB.
Jeez, the Brits seem to do nothing but bit*h, bit*h, bit*h...no wonder they have a bad reputation elsewhere.:rolleyes:

[Boneman]

Going to be a long winter

Not on the Costa!

[411A]

there should not be a fight but the realisation that even a Spanish ATC-officer has to benchmark his performance and benefits with other guys in similar developed countries and their T&C.

As easy as that.

Single European Sky is an absolute need, the sooner the better.


Yup.
I know studi personally...and he is absolutely 100%correct...IE spot on, for the Brits, here.
Ignore at your peril.
PS.
411A... in Euroland since 1974...and still opertating there.:}
Ha!

[L337]

411A Brit-baiting as usual, and as usual, adding nothing to the thread.

Go troll elsewhere.

[lederhosen]

Anybody else confused by 411A's last post? It sounds like he does not understand what the single european sky is about. According to Wikipedia it is intended to organise european airspace uniformly, with air traffic control areas based on operational efficiency, not national borders.

I cannot see many brit or german pilots for that matter being upset about the concept. Spanish air traffic controllers are unlikely however to view it with much enthusiasm.

Maybe he really has changed his opinion. :hmm:

[fireflybob]

411a, I can hardly believe your hypocrisy!

If the controllers in the USA were behaving in the manner that the Spanish ATC are currently doing I would like to see the reaction of the Yanks!

[siftydog]

Ermmm, I stand corrected, but Ronald Reagan sacked them all in the '80's and set back their t's and c's about 15 years in the patco dispute.....

[Surferboy]

..and their t&c's were cut a few years back again, if i'm not mistaken...

[Del Prado]

ATC conveniently forget that we've had flexibility regarding levels/CTOT-5+10/Direct routings for TEN YEARS even through the boom times of 2007/2008 when there was much more traffic about.


They've retired all ATCOs aged 57 and over and haven't been recruiting for six? years so I assume staffing levels are way below levels seen over the last 10 years. Staffing levels changing 10% would have a much bigger impact than traffic levels changing by 10%



Jeez, the Brits seem to do nothing but bit*h, bit*h, bit*h...no wonder they have a bad reputation elsewhere

TBF the yanks have been doing a fair bit of bit*hing about a little bit of spilt oil. :E

[McNulty]

Madrid ATC this morning used the phrase 'station calling' to us 6 times as we checked into the various ground, departure and approach frequencies......SIX TIMES ARGHHHH LISTEN ON THE FREQUENCY!!!

All the talk in the media is of paycuts, which these numbskulls deserve, but unfortunately there is no talk of the shockingly bad and often dangerous service they provide - this too needs to be highlighted, and radically overhauled.

[Mikehotel152]

NB.
Jeez, the Brits seem to do nothing but bit*h, bit*h, bit*h...no wonder they have a bad reputation elsewhere.:rolleyes:

What on earth has this got to do with the British? :ugh:

Posts on this thread come from every nationality under the sun, my friend; all of whom are fed up with the situation in Spain. The fact that the website is predominantly in the English language and many people appreciate the professionalism of the UK controllers might skew the impression that it's just the Brits whinging. But it's not.

Do you have a chip on your shoulder against the British? :rolleyes:

Experienced Tristar pilot or not, sometimes I do wonder...

[Spunky Monkey]

Gonzo

The ATIS in Palma was warning a 20 minute taxi time. So when we called up for start, we were told to call again 20 minutes before our CTOT. However we could see the runway and there were at least 8 aircraft waiting to enter the runway. So even with the best will in the world, we would not have made our slot.

That is after the slot had been kicked out once. Then the new slot time was going up and down like a set of whore's draws.

We eventually got airbourne, 50 minutes after our slot time.

In the last 3 days I have been delayed in and out of Spain 8 hours. Funnily enough the only flights that were on time were the Iberia positioning flights.
Funny co-incidence.

411A

There was nothing to conflict...Your arguemet was about us flying the SID and the flight plan. However we were restricted, for 100NM which was not part of our flight plan.

Our flight plan was FL 380 not FL 240, so how is that keeping to the Flight Plan.

Also the aircraft I fly is not designed to carry several extra tonnes of fuel, for contigency. If I was into conspiracy theories, combined with the 70kts headwind, I would suggest that they knew this. And a diversion would have been in order. Surely controllers are trained to know the performance of an aircraft?

From what I saw this week, the attitude of some controllers, does nothing to aide safety. Infact, I would suggest that it threatens safety.




411A
I have always thought that I would like to meet you and listern to some of your wisdom.

Undoubtedly, there would be a large amount you could teach my meagre middle aged years. However there is probably a great deal that you could learn from us “modern” european pilots.

However your posts underly a serious small knob syndrome...

[Spunky Monkey]

If as some have pointed out, that controllers are not getting days off etc. Then that is worrying.

However I have a silver bullet.

Give the controllers more time off etc.

By removing the huge wage bill and employing more controllers on a sensible wage.

Everyone wins.

Including us whining Brits.:}

[Del Prado]

Surely controllers are trained to know the performance of an aircraft?

No. Constant pressure from customers to reduce costs ensures ATCOs know very little about flying.

(it would appear the opposite is also true)

[411A]

Also the aircraft I fly is not designed to carry several extra tonnes of fuel, for contigency.
Then plan a tech stop for refueling, or...chuck off some payload and uplift more fuel.
I had this very scenario two weeks ago, transAtlantic and chucked off three tons of excess baggage, as more fuel was needed, due strong headwinds
IF you're a professional (as you claim) use your head and find a solution.
I suspect the Spanish ATC folks could care less about your problem...as they have their own set of difficulties.
I also suspect they will not change their modus operandi anytime soon.

[Zippy Monster]

A couple of weeks ago at Palma (yes, there again) we called for start-up at CTOT -8 mins. We were on a remote stand with no pushback necessary. We of course received the predictable "you have missed your slot, you have to call operations for a new one". As usual, not a single aircraft at the hold point - we would have easily been airborne within the slot time.

So I call the Palma Operations frequency to see what's going on while the captain is on the phone to the company (and can't get through.) After being told to standby for a few minutes, they come back with a new slot in 2hrs 20 mins time. I enquire as to the reason for the delay, and the response comes back "we don't know, it has been given from flow management in Brussels." Muchas gracias for your help, mate.

A few minutes later the captain gets through to our ops on the phone and lets them know about the new slot. They can see it but tell us they can't do anything with it, nor even file a new flight plan, because it is something called a "tech slot". Neither the captain or I had ever heard of one of these before, but apparently it is a delay applied to your flight plan by the local air traffic control if you have a technical problem and won't be going for a while. From what our ops controller said, the upshot was that we had 'missed' our original slot (by being ready only 8 minutes before it instead of 15) and Palma had then, for reasons only known to themselves, whacked on a "tech" slot which couldn't be changed, and the flight plan couldn't be re-filed.

I asked the captain to point out to our ops guy that Palma Operations had said the slot had come from CFMU, to which ops replied that was nonsense and it had been assigned by Palma, as only they could apply that type of restriction, and there was nothing further he could do.

About two days later, the exact same thing happened again to another of our aircraft operated by a friend of mine. Almost a carbon copy.

Could someone with a better working knowledge of the slot system and Spanish ATC please clear up the following for me:

- What exactly is the definition of a 'tech slot'?
- Is it true that only the local ATC can apply it?
- If so, why did they lie to us and tell us explicitly that it came from CFMU?
- Is it correct, therefore, to assume that Palma did it just to annoy us as much as possible?

It's worth pointing out that it did improve by over an hour after sending a ready message, but I am interested in the principles behind it. I fail to see how it can be up to an ATC unit to decide whether or not an aircraft has a technical problem and how long that technical problem might take to fix, but I've never heard of this before and I'm only going on the limited 2nd hand information from our ops department. Given the poor service provided in Spain this summer, and the particularly appalling 'service' being provided by Palma, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that my assumption is correct.

[ant1]

ZM you asked for understanding of the slot system so here I go:

There is only one thing that worries me more than the fact that somebody could start repoducing such utter load of b0ll0cks and its the fact that you bought into it.

I don't know if I should give you the following information but here I go again: Santa does not exist.

Going back to the heart of the matter: whatever request you make through Palma Operations is fed into a computer by somebody who's not located at the ATC facility and is not a controller. The reply comes directly form the CFMU system. No evil Spanish gnome intervention except for any reg that the Spanish ATC may have previously fed into the system. The reg may read something like this "Zippy Monster's aircraft cannot take off until frogs start shaving". Not true, just kidding, don't buy into it.

Since we're going round in circles let's recap.

Spanish ATC are working to the rules set by the AENA beancounters. It all started when the beancounters started intruding into operational matters. Make your homework and find the beancounters' reply to the controllers complaint about understaffing and overloaded sectors.

There's a war going on but the controllers are not trying to make your life miserable. They are overstressed and abiding by the beancounters' rules (no directs, full SIDS, etc.). If some pilot got home 2h late, some Spanish controllers had to take their kid to work because of the newly imposed nazi rules like the "on call" system. Live with it like I do. If not able 411A may give you appropriate counseling.

And finally: moderator where are you? Posts containing explicit insults like the ones from specimens ala McNutty (approximative spelling) should be (and most probably are) against pprune rules. What are you waiting to remove them? I've had posts erased for much much less.

Would 411A be right and there would be a certain bias (I'll let you guess which one it is) in this forum?

[Zippy Monster]

Going back to the heart of the matter: whatever request you make through Palma Operations is fed into a computer by somebody who's not located at the ATC facility and is not a controller. The reply comes directly form the CFMU system. No evil Spanish gnome intervention except for any reg that the Spanish ATC may have previously fed into the system.

Just that bit would have done, thanks.

[TBSC]

There is no flight plan on earth which can not be cancelled and refiled. Actually you can do it with a simple SITA message to CFMU if you know the correct format and address to use. Within 30 secs you can cancel/delay any (live) flight plans of the world (belonging to any company) if you know the proper flight number and dep/dest station as CFMU is not checking the authority of the sender only the message format. You will be later catched by your address but that's a different story.
However if you refile a flight plan you will automatically be put at the very end of the queue of flights using the limiting airspace/aerodrome (being an LF = Late Filer) therefore it is the worst tactics to fight against a slot. For a simple 10 mins extension your OPS guys can call CFMU Helpdesk, they help in 90% of the cases without sending any delay message. If you got the sh#&đy CTOT already, better to keep the original flight plan/EOBT, ask ATC to relase a ready message and wait for someone else delaying their EOBT or your ops guys to beg successfully to CFMU helpdesk for an improvement. Let's hope that AENA/UFOENA/WHOKNOWSENA does not prohibit ATC staff to send ready messages... ;)

[Denti]

Well, quite often you ask them to send a ready message, they tell you that it is send, you call your own OPS which tells you that no ready message was send and CFMU already told them not to call for any flight again...

[TBSC]

Depends how polite you are and if you call them with any small things or only in case if your are really in trouble. As far as I understand they are happier to "serve" airlines considering this as help and not a service must be done. Won't tell you bad examples though...

Ref. ATC not sending ready msg: they might be busy arranging babysitters. ;)

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Would 411A be right and there would be a certain bias (I'll let you guess which one it is) in this forum?

Now that IS funny - the word bias coming from the lips of a Spanish ATCO :}

[ant1]

Try again. I suggest you do some homework before posting.

[kick the tires]

Yesterday in Madrid........

ATC were conversational, polite, efficient on both ground and in air, gave direct routes, free speeds - all without us asking.

It really took the pressure of what is normally a stressful experience.

Thanks MAD ATC!

[p_perez]

kick the tires wrote:
It really took the pressure of what is normally a stressful experience.

ktt: you want to view an stressful experience, really feel the pressure ...? :eek:

Read this:
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416439-atc-situation-spain-5.html#post5833827

and watch this:
YouTube - Acoso laboral de Aena a los controladores del Centro de Control de Torrejón y censura informativa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Wt7DfugaA&feature=player_embedded)


Those are the very same guys you are now thanking.


Saludos!

[Navigator33]

Station calling?

In all seriousness thanks for the eye opener. You can feel the tension coming from the movie.

[Chesty Morgan]

Jesus Christ do you lot really think you deserve any respect after that performance.

YOU ARE AT WORK. You are supposed to be expediting the safe and efficient flow of air traffic. Not shouting and screaming like little kids who have had their lollies taken away.

The next time I receive an instruction from Spanish ATC I will have to think long and hard about following it as I can no longer be sure that it's coming from somebody who is concentrating on his job or just trying to make a point.

Can I suggest that you ALL search for the definitions of professional, adult, mature and responsible.

[p_perez]

To studi: if a manager from your company ever dares to enter your company's plane's cockpit while you are at work, I bet you wouldn't be happy. Our control rooms are also resting places, and we have boards for our use. Part of our protest is because non-operational personal are not supposed to be allowed in the control room because they could disturb normal operation, which they did.


To Chesty: the very moment you enter Spanish airspace, you will be under my or one of my colleague's control; if you request descend or climb, you will do so only after you are cleared by me or one of my colleagues; if you are told to turn certain degrees or heading by me or one of my colleagues, you will comply; any request is suject to my or my colleagues authorisation; etc ... Get it?

I don't care what you do in your cockpit, either you decide to increase your situational awareness or dance a polka, as long as the previous is clear. If you don't like it, request other routes from your company.

Your hate would push you to criticise us even for breathing, and I'm fed up with it.

My respect to your fellow pilots who show the same to us. Saludos! for you.

[GarageYears]

Seriously, the video posted above reminds me of our common room during the last year of secondary school. I believe we were campaigning to have Coke (or was it Pepsi) sold at the snack bar... How this pathetic display is supposed to represent a professional work-place is beyond me, whether the root-issue is valid or not.

Unfortunately that question is unlikely to matter - if you run around and act like a bunch of kids, sticking notes to your back with tape (really:rolleyes:), and scribbling hand-written notes with colored pencils, well, you deserve to treated like kids.

It belies belief that these people have the lives of thousands of people in their hands.

- GY :=

[Chesty Morgan]

you will comply

Oh will I? I'll remind you that I am the Commander of the aircraft and NOT you. If I consider one of your REQUESTS to be dangerous, for instance, if I can hear a childish squabble going on in the background I will consider but may not comply with your REQUEST.

Get it?

Now either push off or do your job like an adult, professional, grown up would.

Perez how can you defend the actions of the 2 females and 1 male who, in the first 10 seconds of the video, are paying absolutely no attention to their radar screens. And the male who stands up and starts arguing with the AENA bloke> The same male is then seen about 20 feet away from his screen shouting, whistling and arguing. Is he paying attention to the radar screen? IS he going to help me in an emergency? Is he keeping me away from terrain or other traffic? NO HE IS NOT. You are dangerous and shouldn't be anywhere near a radar screen.

[Tight Seat]

Aviate, navigate.....whats the last one?


p-perez,

Sir, if you tell me to fly into a hill, I will not comply.

[TBSC]

@ p_perez

the very moment you enter Spanish airspace, you will be under my or one of my colleague's control


Pls tell us how you dare to call it "control"? The guy in the checkered shirt leaves his station for at least a minute. Hope that you and your colleagues will never be passengers on an aircraft under "control" of ATC staff behaving like this...

[p_perez]

Hello again:

just a few words to state my apologies for the tone of my previous post, to all of you alluded, either if that was my intention or not. As these apologies could not be understood without the mentioned post (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-19.html#post5835391), I´m not going to delete or edit it.

I´ll try not to charge again against the next red cape waved in front of me. I don´t think this is a matter of "cojones". I´ll keep on posting information about Spanish ATC as soon as it reaches my hands.


Ahora sí: saludos para todos.


P. S. 1. Regarding people mentioned in the video not attending their radar screens, well they couldn´t: they are also AENA staff that are ordered to act as witnesses (in case they file a disciplinary action against some employee) every time the company anticipates there will be a reaction against one of their abuses.

P. S. 2. We know when we can distract our attention from the screen for a few seconds, as any pilot knows when he can solve a Sudoku, or finish his tax report on the laptop, or even take a nap, during a flight. Please, don´t talk so easily about something you absolutely ignore: I have also flown in the cockpit, talking with both pilots face to face, with apparently no attention to the plane´s controls.

[His dudeness]

This is what pperez posted as a spanish atco roster on another thread:

AENA published the rosters for august last july 21th, applying the new 10-day notice for Spanish ATCO´s. And here is an example:

1. Vacation
2. 1500->2200
3. 0800->1500 and 2200->0000
4. 0000->0800
5. 1500->2200
6. 0800->1500
7. Day off
8. 1500->2200
9. 0800->1500 and 2200->0000
10. 0000->0800
11. Day off
12. 1500->2200
13. 1500->2200
14. 1500->2200
15. 0800->1500
16. Day off
17. Day off
18. 0800->1500
19. 1500->2200
20. 1500->2200
21. 0800->1500 and 2200->0000
22. 0000->0800
23. 1500->2200
24. 0800->1500
25. 0800->1500
26. 1500->2200
27. 0800->1500 and 2200->0000
28. 0000->0800
29. 0800->1500
30. 0800->1500
31. 0800->1500

It sums 194 hrs. in 30 days, with only 4 days off. Notice the last 14 days working in a row, with no day off.


I think we can all agree that we would not work such a roster. This is dngerous, anyone working this kind of hours in such a job can´t be up to his full capabilities.

Having said that, the slow-go you obviously do, is not generating the pressure on the ones that can change your situation. What do you think the spanish people would say to 7 days of no airtravel - meaning no tourists and no travel - in the high season. That might actually help the situation, getting talks going that lead to a workable solution.

pperez, my father was an atco and at home he never spoke about an atco having an emergency that required the immidiate help and work of a pilot. The other way round happened from time to time. Food for thought, maybe?

[N-1]

Hi to all;

This link may clarify many of your questions:

YouTube - Acoso laboral de Aena a los controladores del Centro de Control de Torrejón y censura informativa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Wt7DfugaA)

Spanish Goverment is in a desperate need for money, mainly because their wrong economic policy.

So, now controllers are the Socialist's objective for salary reduction, just to demostrate the 4.600.000 unemployed people that part of their high salary will go to public subsides (which is of course false).

Please note that Mr. José Blanco, the Minister responible for AENA and Civil Aviation has no University Degree necessary, even to apply for a job quite under the position he is roling :eek:. This is what we have and the people ruling Spain actually....... No further coments :ugh::ugh:

[Tight Seat]

So with the above roster, the way you attack the problem is to absolve yourselves of anything but basic duties?

I'm completely *****ed, its a summer roster,thats how charter airlines make the money. My life is only made worse by w@nkers not willing to do their duty.

Question? You tell me I have to fly flight plan route, so why do you give me a wrong ( lower) level? If you want to die by the rules , at least apply them .

[Denti]

Witnessed something funny yesterday in PMI: ATC applied 2 minutes wake turbulence separation between 738s, told the succeeding every time to be cautious because of the wake turbulences caused by the 2 minutes prior departed HEAVY 738 in front. The A320 in between all those 738s was not deemed a heavy though, wonder if the A330s were treated as such.

I know they always called a departing 738 a heavy which was always some source of amusement, however seeing them playing the part to the end and that way running out of time for some slotted departures is not really funny at all.

[kick the tires]

pperez,

Thanks for the link, but it has done nothing for your cause. The respect I was building for your plight has disappeared in a 2 minute video clip.

its just not in my culture to behave the way you guys do; you are at a professional place of work. The time to vent your frustration is not in front of the radar screens when you are responsible for the deconfliction of tens of aircraft and thousands of lives - even if the actual controllers remain seated, how do they concentrate with all that background noise and commotion?

I understand your situation, I agree you have a justified case, but I wouldnt give too many people that link.

[Thunderbug]

That link is scary.........

My spanish is not good enough to work out who is doing what to who - but the fact that all this is kicking off in an operational area fills me with utter horror.

Common guys get a grip - sure there is a lot going on in your area, but keep it off the frontline. Demonstrate some level of professionalism. Have your punch up in the canteen or in your local tapas bar - Not in the Ops room. :ugh:

[30W]

p-perez,

Whilst most have both concern for your fight with management, the distribution of the Ops room video clip really does no good for your cause, and in deed is extremely worrying for both your users and for yourselves.....

I know frustrations and tempers are at boiling point amongst you all, but the video clip shows a TOTALLY unprofessional workplace. The proximity of industrial propaganda to controller workstations etc is totally unacceptable in my opinion. The distraction level provided by yourselves, WITHIN an operational area is totally unprofessional. Your employer DOES have the right, and indeed DUTY to control what distraction lies within the close proximity of the operational workstations.

Imagine how this video would look in a court of law following an incident/accident in Spanish airspace (we all hope that doesn't happen!).

Based on the video one of your colleagues has posted, you risk not only safety, but also your own licenses... controllers who have left an operational position would be legally culprable, with all the sad ramifications that involves.

AENA, equally culprable, could also right now use the video if they so choose to run disciplinary hearings against your colleagues for their failure to carry out their professional duty whilst 'operational'.

I thank you for coming on here to share the awareness of the current Spanish situation, and help us understand the issues involved. Warn your colleagues however, that release of such videos is in itself an extremely dangerous way of highlighting 'the cause', and could well come back to bite them.....:ugh:

Saludos
30W

[demomonkey]

My God! They use computer screens. Sometimes you get the feeling your being pushed around a map by wooden poles like some WWII era film! Mind you that roster looks like a recipe for disaster.

Got to agree though, religion and politics should be kept away from dinner parties, flight decks and ATCO positions.

[Telstar]

"Station calling is?¿"

At least no we know what they are doing when they don´t answer!

The government needs some balls. Sack them all. There would be no problem getting people to staff places like Palma and Malaga.

[Surferboy]

Perez how can you defend the actions of the 2 females and 1 male who, in the first 10 seconds of the video, are paying absolutely no attention to their radar screens. And the male who stands up and starts arguing with the AENA bloke> The same male is then seen about 20 feet away from his screen shouting, whistling and arguing. Is he paying attention to the radar screen? IS he going to help me in an emergency? Is he keeping me away from terrain or other traffic? NO HE IS NOT. You are dangerous and shouldn't be anywhere near a radar screen.

Like you've never left the cockpit to go to the toilet?

[30W]

Surferboy,

Whilst having sympathy with the Spanish situation, and wishing as most do, a satisfactory conclusion, I find it difficult to believe any professional ATCO can find a defence for the Ops room situation and scenario as shown within the video.

A 'toliet break' either from the Flight Deck, or from an operational ATC position is surely a 'controlled' break? The whole scenario shown is ANYTHING other than that type of situation. Whilst other posters may be extemeist in reaction, please don't fall down the same path and make unworthy comparisons else any constructive comment will be entirely wasted......

30W

[250 kts]

Telstar,

Sack them all. There would be no problem getting people to staff places like Palma and Malaga.

Looking at your previous posts and guessing who you fly for I guess this would be just the way to resolve a dispute with the employer.

I assume from this comment that you think controlling is very similar to flying?

You give the impression anyone can turn up at Palma or Malaga on day one and operate without a large degree of training, just like jumping into a B737 which will be common no matter what it says on the side.

At all but the quietest and less complicated airfields or sectors the validation period would be measured in months rather than days or weeks.

Still want them all sacked?

[JW411]

250 Knots:

Have you ever experienced Spanish ATC from the front end (where the windows are)?

I have.

It started in 1962 when I was on my way south to Ascension Island and we called into Las Palmas on the way south. I was quite astonished to see a whole bunch of Buchons (Me109s) and Spanish-built He-111s get airborne.
I was totally fascinated. This was history in motion.

In many ways, things have not changed very much.

Spanish ATC have always been "interesting" and, I suspect, some of them are still in the Buchon era.

I can remember some 40 years later going into ZAZ one morning with a new F/O. When we got down town and got a beer in our hands, he told me a fantastic ZAZ story.

He was flying a Bandeirante with his previous company and was inbound to ZAZ one night when his problems started with an engine fire. His Mayday did not get too many people's attention.

Things got better, he then had an electrical failure etc. etc. etc. No radios.

He landed on 30L at ZAZ in the middle of the night (almost deadstick) which, those of you who are familiar, 30L was a standby skid strip for the space shuttle.

Just as he was breathing a huge sigh of relief for having got himself and his aeroplane on the ground in extremely difficult circumstances, the locals almost had him locked up for landing on a "military runway" despite the fact that the next scheduled space shuttle launch was not for about 60 days and the Spanish Air Force used 30R anyway.

I suppose that when you are paid €800,000 per annum and accept that a shouting match within the ATC centre is quite normal (as per the video) then there is little room for conversation.

What is the Spanish phrase for "common sense"?

[Chesty Morgan]

Suferboy, of course I have. When it's quiet and I'm desperate, in the cruise and only when I implicitly trust the F/O. I am allowed by my company to do this.

Would you rather have me sitting there only concentrating on not peeing my pants? Have you heard of distractors? Probably not.

I would not however, leave the flight deck to shout and scream and stamp my feet, probably distracting the F/O from his job, whenever anybody wound me up a little bit. That would be dangerous.

Leave your emotions at home.

Now go away.

[250 kts]

JW411,

You miss my point completely. Telstar seems to give the impression that by sacking them all you get a usable ATC service the very next day which unlike piloting is simply not the case.

If he and his company are happy to go down this line and potentially experience many,many months of delays whilst the number of valed controllers is replenished then fine.

At no stage do I defend what is going on in Spain either from an ATC or AENA point of view. It is clear from the video that emotions are running high and un-professionalism is creeping in on both sides.

Only AENA and the unions getting round the table is going to help alleviate the present situation and neither side is likely to actually win the war. At best an uncomfortable agreement will be reached which may continue to lead to mis-trust between the 2 sides. Not brilliant in a safety conscious environment.

Common sense seems to have been forgotten by both sides here.

It's at times like this that I'm glad I work for an ANSP that puts safety right at the top of the list. Not something MOL seems to do according to his interview for the Sunday Times where costs and prices come ahead of safety and efficiency.

Now if I could only be so confident that safety will stay at the top if we are fully privatised.

[ant1]

JW411, I would tend to think ZAZ was and is manned precisely by those military controllers that the Spanish Governement wants to put in lieu of their better trained civil counterparts.

[68+iou1]

Just got home.
We had a couple small directs in Spain. Common sense!
Thank you!

[Touch'n'oops]

p_perez

After reading what is on here concerning the changes Spanish ATC is going through, I do have sympathy for your cause.

I would like to give you and your colleagues my full support, but not before you help me understand a couple of stumbling blocks I have. Apologies if you have already covered the points.

1. The action taken by Controllers is obviously not working and in our eyes (Pilots') it is ineffective. Why are there no organised walk outs as the French have done?

2. During this action why are Spanish aircraft blatantly being given priority over foreign aircraft on Approach/Take-Off? (Please don't deny this. It is incredibly obvious, as we pilots have TCAS showing all aircraft 40nm around our plane. When an aircraft 20nm behind and 4,000ft higher gets in-front of me, while I'm off on some obscure headings it never surprises me that it turns out to be Spanish.)

So I implore you, go back to your colleagues, get rid of the signs in your centre and really take action and make sure it is applied to EVERYONE fairly. Make the right people hurt, because this action is only hurting your cause and foreign airlines.

Publicise your cause. Contact pilot unions in other countries and encourage them to inform pilots what you are fighting for and how you are doing it.:ok:

As soon as the action you take starts to make sense to us you will find a lot of support on the radio!:ok:

[McNulty]

Good lord that video is an own goal. Bunch of clowns walking around with paper stuck to their backs when they should be controlling - do they realise that those blips on their screens are actually real planes full of people with families? or do they just think its a computer game?

Fire them all before they get people killed.

[p_perez]

For Touch'n'oops:

thank you for your constructive post, very much needed among so much hate one´s.

Regarding a more contundent response from our part to the agression we are suffering from Spanish goverment and AENA, here is an explanation from my colleague El Molo:

"(..) And finally, we cannot strike. For 3 reasons. We are legally fighting the new law. AENA is trying to force us to go to strike far before the decree, from early 2009. If we did so, then as the conflict would be between us and AENA, the government would immediately act as a referee, and force then the new T&C not as they are now, imposed, but as a new collective agreement. Secondly, when we go to strike, the minimum services declared for us are 100 to 110 %. So the strike doesn't stop the air traffic at all. You get all the inconvenience of the strike (bad press and government's referee) with no benefits as the service will work exactly the same as if you don't strike. And third, we cannot force a savage strike, not respecting the minimum services, because we have from 2003 an "Air Safety Law" performed by another minister also very keen to us, that entitles the government to fine us with only 250.000 € if we attempt against the continuity or safety of the system. Believe me, if we could gain something by strike, we would have done it far before."

The complete post is here: http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=5838408#post5838111 , and he answers other questions too (have a look to our reasons for not giving so many directs or not filed FL´s).


And about the occasional priority given to Spanish companies over other foreign ones, I can only tell you that I have never, EVER, given priority to anybody because of the nationality of the carrier. I have witnessed this on very few occasions with some senior colleague. And I have been ranted MORE than on few ocassions by an Spanish pilot for not giving him priority. Seniors are more present in app sectors, of which I believe you complain more: I´m not yet on that job, only an enroute ATCO.


Saludos!

[kick the tires]

p_perez -

you havent commented on the many postings that are horrified at the behaviour of your colleagues on the video YOU gave to us............

[p_perez]

kick the tires wrote:
you havent commented on the many postings that are horrified at the behaviour of your colleagues on the video YOU gave to us............

Yes I have ...

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-20.html#post5835788
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416439-atc-situation-spain-5.html#post5835838


I´m starting to get bored with guys that don´t take their time to read all the information posted in this thread and in the thread at http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416439-atc-situation-spain.html

I happen to have many more important things to do than serve as a tutor.

Don´t just pass your eyes over the letters, try actually reading them!

Saludos!

[kick the tires]

p_perez,

those comments were made BEFORE you posted the link to your video.

Since then many posters have expressed outrage at the behaviour of your colleagues - THAT deserves comment does it not?

[p_perez]

kick the tires wrote:
those comments were made BEFORE you posted the link to your video. (...)

Link to the video: 28th July, 2010, 02:58

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416439-atc-situation-spain-5.html#post5833827


Links of my comments to the videos:

28th July, 2010, 23:54 http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ml#post5835788
29th July, 2010, 00:27 http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416...ml#post5835838


kick the tires: first you say I didn´t comment on the commentaries on the video: I DID!
Second, you say my commentaries where made before I posted the link to the video: THEY WERE MADE AFTER!


kick the tires: stop wasting our time, you already showed yourself as a bigmouth. This is my last response to your trolling.

[Chesty Morgan]

Perez you keep banging on about hate this and hate that and hate you for breathing and you're getting fed up with it.

I don't hate you, I don't know you. I'm sure nobody else hates you at all.

What I do not like is the attitude that your fellow countrymen, and for all I know you, displayed in that video. It is awful, completely and utterly. It's as far from professional as you can get.

You want respect? You need to earn it. You do that by doing your job, well. By not behaving like petulant children, especially in front of a camera.

None of this is personal but you are bearing the brunt of our despair because you have elected yourself to be the voice of Spanish ATC here on Pprune.

If you don't like it stop posting. We are the wrong audience for your plight.

That said I am sympathetic to your situation (despite what you may think) but what would you like me to do about it?

[wayupthere]

AGP gave us directs free speeds and let us go early on a slot today :ok:

As for that video scary scary stuff :eek:

[kick the tires]

pperez, You have NOT made any comments about the reaction from many pilots on this thread, what you have done is become rude and aggressive with a number of us.

How typically spanish! You scored an own goal with that video, have lost credibility and indeed the support you had from us within this debate so you stick your head in the sand, deny everything and then start to get aggressive!

Next you'll be saying that Spanish aircraft never get priority - oh, you've already said that!!!! :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

WE ARE NOT THE ENEMY!!!!!

[wayupthere]

Guys in fairness,
While I don't agree with everything p_perez has posted (in fact most things) at least he has given us the other side of the story. This is a debate, not a slagging match.
I for one am glad to have both sides of the argument.
And no I'm not ATC :}

[ant1]

KTT, Next you'll be saying that Spanish aircraft never get priority - oh, you've already said that!!!!

In fact pperez said the opposite:

And about the occasional priority given to Spanish companies over other foreign ones, I can only tell you that I have never, EVER, given priority to anybody because of the nationality of the carrier. I have witnessed this on very few occasions with some senior colleague. And I have been ranted MORE than on few ocassions by an Spanish pilot for not giving him priority. Seniors are more present in app sectors, of which I believe you complain more: I´m not yet on that job, only an enroute ATCO.

Listen before you talk, read before you post. You wouldn't happen to have an agenda, would you?

[p_perez]

Reading comprehension:

Reading comprehension - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_comprehension) :confused:



Saludos! :ok:


(ant1: ;))

[kick the tires]

OK, I stand corrected; by my experience, EVERY spanish aircraft in Madrids airspace gets priority; pperez's assertion that it is a rare event is simply not true!

But still no comment re the video and the reaction from the many posters who have expressed outrage and despair at so called professionals who control the spanish skies!

[McNulty]

Its true, every spanish aircraft gets priority over all other aircraft every single day both on the ground and in the air in madrid, with very few exceptions. To say it happens "on occasion" is total BS.

[Touch'n'oops]

P_Perez

Thank you for your reply.

But, I encourage you to advise your fellow controllers who run the practise of giving Spanish aircraft priority to stop. This sort of behaviour severely damages pilots' respect for Spanish ATC. I been sat next to many fellow pilots who curse ALL Spanish controllers because of this and I have fumed at times.

How is your union lobbying your DEMOCRATICALLY elected leaders to change a very unfair and unsafe system? It seems very little has changed since the days of General Franco.


Everyone else reading

I was drawn to this post as I DID hold a lot of animosity towards Spanish ATC.

However, I suggest everyone STOP and take the time to read what information P_Perez has posted. Yes, the video within the ATC centre was shocking, but now imagine your airline/country imposing the same restrictions that effectively tie your hands. Think of the frustration of trying to encourage and reform in a country which is strongly adverse to such actions.

Read more, type less!

[samotnik]

Guys, you are definitely making too much rumour about this video. Watch it once again, cool down. I can see that:

1. there is some management' clown in a funny baseball hat walking all over the room and disturbing operational staff
2. all the people who are walking behind and making photos are obviously at their breaks and don't work at the moment
3. 1/3 - 1/2 of people in front of the screens don't even turn their heads around to see what's going on, they remain perfectly calm and focused on their screens
4. most of the remaining stay plugged and seated, paying attention to their screens, just turning their heads for a moment to see what's going on
5. only one guy sitting next to the board does unplug and stand up, but he might have been working at some quiet sector (even in Spain at the moment not every sector is at 110% capacity all the time), or doing some non-ATC work at the moment, just utilizing the station, i.e. for maintenance
6. sometimes a friend walking behind, tapping you at the shoulder just to say 'hello' is more disturbing to operational work than whole this situation
7. if you are from Britain, you'll never fully understand why people from Spain express themselves by shouting and whistling. It's just a cultural difference. Spaniards don't have any idea why do you eat this crappy English food as well.

[Chesty Morgan]

1. If a man walking is disturbing, then that is well...disturbing.

2. Are they obviously on a break? How can you tell? If they are should they be joining in with the whole circus?

3. Which means 2/3 to a 1/2 do turn around and pay more attention to what's going on behind them than they are to there job.

4. Which is what everybody should do.

5. Does it matter if your sector is quiet? If you are only controlling one aeroplane is that less likely to have an emergency or need your help? Nope. But you've buggered off to the other side of the room so tough, our problem for being on a quiet sector.

6. One person saying hello is more distrurbing than what looked and sounded like a bunch of chimps fighting over a banana? Really?

7. Cultural differences apart. Professional still means professional.

[Denti]

but now imagine your airline/country imposing the same restrictions that effectively tie your hands

If i would be as frustrated as these guys seem to be i would simply resign and get another job elsewhere. The world is a big place which is actually in need of persons intelligent enough to pass those very strict assessment tests like those ATCOs hopefully have to. Frustration over a job is certainly not worth endangering others lives or even my own health.

[His dudeness]

Denti, that is easy said and hard to do once your past the "sell off by" date, roughly 35 to 40 in Europe. I trust that a lot of the spanish controller like their job, but not how the development goes. I also, as mentioned before, see their schedules as dangerous. If they protest these, they are right. All I ask them to do is to reconsider who they penalize how and what the possible gain from that is. (and some things we don´t like are imposed by management, so...)

[samotnik]

2. Are they obviously on a break? How can you tell? If they are should they be joining in with the whole circus?
Are you an ATCo? If you're not - believe me - they are going to join this cirus as long they are on a break. I belong to a completely different culure, but if I were them, I would.

3. Which means 2/3 to a 1/2 do turn around and pay more attention to what's going on behind them than they are to there job.
As long as you're not an ATCo, don't judge them. If they are just to turn around for a moment - it's no problem. Not every situation on a radar screen requiers a constant attention.

5. Does it matter if your sector is quiet?
Yes, it does.

If you are only controlling one aeroplane is that less likely to have an emergency or need your help?
Does it? I can guarantee that this aircraft didn't need controller's assistance. No ATCo, all over the world, would ever take their sight off of the screen in case of any aircraft needing their assistance in case of any emergency.

6. One person saying hello is more distrurbing than what looked and sounded like a bunch of chimps fighting over a banana? Really?
You're obviously not an ATCo. You've never worked as an operational ATCo in a big ops room and you should not express your opinions until you'll get some experience on this.

[LH2]

Jesus Christ do you lot really think you deserve any respect after that performance.
[....]
Can I suggest that you ALL search for the definitions of professional, adult, mature and responsible.

Well, this is what I've been saying for like a year, based on my local knowledge and insights (in a way I have "seen" that video before :uhoh:).

I have always argued that I do not care how mucho dinero they get paid (which is how it all started), and I have stated that I would be more than happy for a German, Swiss, French, even an Italian controller to be on Spanish salaries. That is because I feel I'm getting my money's worth from them--the French saved my bacon one day before I even knew I was in trouble, the Italians saved it again some time latter (this time I knew full well I was in trouble :E)... the Spaniards closed my flight plan after it'd gone ALERFA. If that's not being a dangerous **** you tell me what is.

And no, they're not being "overworked" insofar as they are doing the exact same duty hours as last year... or they would be, if they all didn't start pulling sickies so colleagues have to cover for them.

I believe they were quick to tell you on this thread how many of them were off "sick" because of stress, blah, blah... what they might not have told you is that the government have decided that they be checked by social security GPs (rather than their own doctors), who found no grounds to justify a medical leave on something like 80% of the cases.

They should all be sacked--the competent ones amongst them (and there are, albeit very few) can always be rehired latter.

[LH2]

You're obviously not an ATCo. You've never worked as an operational ATCo in a big ops room and you should not express your opinions until you'll get some experience on this.

...and you shouldn't express yours until you have seen Spanish ATCOs performing. Believe me, you wouldn't be defending them if you had. :sad:

[Vld1977]

Kick the Tires:

How typically spanish! You scored an own goal with that video, have lost credibility and indeed the support you had from us within this debate so you stick your head in the sand, deny everything and then start to get aggressive

How is that "tipically Spanish"?

[Dusthog]

Spanish ATC performs below standard even on a normal day without any strike.
Unfortunately with this ongoing strike pilots also loose respect for the Spanish ATC.

Some time ago coming in late one night, ATC told us to fly the full approach procedure.
Since there was no traffic in the area we ignored them and cleared ourselves direct to final.
This is of course an unprofessional actions and does not belong in aviation.

That night we lowered ourselves to a level of Spanish ATC and I´m not proud over it.

[Chesty Morgan]

Does it? I can guarantee that this aircraft didn't need controller's assistance. No ATCo, all over the world, would ever take their sight off of the screen in case of any aircraft needing their assistance in case of any emergency.

No of course not (I hope). But what would happen if an aircraft had an emergency while the controller was not at his station and was off performing like monkey? Would he even realise? No. Would he be able to offer assistance straight away? No. Not performing his job, end of story.

Are you an ATCo? If you're not - believe me - they are going to join this cirus as long they are on a break

Oh that's ok then? Lets make the disturbance and distraction worse because we're on a break. Brilliant.

No I'm not an ATCO but I have visited several ATC centres in the UK. I am a professional and behave so at work like I expect others to do. Especially if they are supposed to be giving me a service. So I can judge them from a professional point of view. Being an ATCO doesn't excuse immature and irresponsible behaviour does it?

5. Does it matter if your sector is quiet?

Yes, it does.

Why?

[Slickster]

After my experience into IBZ the other night, give me no Spanish controllers, thanks very much. I'll do a better, and safer job on my own. Bunch of chimps.

[Denti]

Denti, that is easy said and hard to do once your past the "sell off by" date, roughly 35 to 40 in Europe.

Dunno, been there, done it. It wasn't hard, but very much worth it.

[Avman]

Denti, you make it sound soo easy. It takes a great deal longer to validate as an ATCO in a diffrent ATC unit with a new employer than as a pilot changing to a different type with a new employer. Furthermore, most ATC organisations/companies will not take you on at 40, no matter what previous experience you have.

[Cernicalo]

For Slickster,

Ok. Quite Easy. Don't fly to Spain.

Best regards from a "chimp"

After my experience into IBZ the other night, give me no Spanish controllers, thanks very much. I'll do a better, and safer job on my own. Bunch of chimps.

[jlms]

I would really like to shed some light on all this issue but it is getting somewhat late and need to catch some sleep. I'll try my best quickly though.

Please take note that we Spanish ATCO's are going through a very difficult moment. Our Government has thrown our T&C's down the drain (and we are not talking only about salaries here) and collective bargaining has been substituted since 05/02/10 by one ad hoc law after another that applies to us on an unprecedented scale in Spanish democratic history.

Toss in mass media giving only one side of the story and the fact that we are being used as scapegoats by our own ANSP in order to cover up the massive debt they have managed to get themselves into (due to heavy investments in the construction of unnecessary airports and infrastructures)... and one can start to picture how much fun it now is for us to walk into work.

And yes, believe it or not, we are *very* concerned about the safety issue surrounding this kind of work environment and conditions. Umpteen reports have been filed and we have written to every possible person and establishment you can think or come up with.

Thank you and I hope to have the pleasure of having you guys passing through one of my sectors soon.

[Bomber Harris]

Thanks jlms. Any chance direct the center fix :rolleyes:

[ATC Watcher]

Thanks jlms. Any chance direct the center fix :rolleyes:
A very good resume of the differences between the 2 professions.

My little finger is telling me that a controller strike is cooking in Spain, and if that materialize, the Governement has already declared it is planning to replace the controllers by the military. Again if that is done, and for those old enough here to remember 1973 and Nantes, more interesting times are probably coming in Spain.

I do not think this scenario is in Microsoft FS, so we might lose a lot of posters here.On the other hand a total lack of understanding how ATC work has so far never prevented anyone here to deliver a stong opinion on how it should be done .

[Sunnyjohn]

Unless I misread my Spanish, President Zapatero has publicly stated that he will not bring in the military.

Yesterday's Las Provincias printed an article stating that the Spanish ATCo's were considering up to four days strike action.

[kick the tires]

Jlms,

A nice balanced post; hope you slept well!

I enjoy flying into BCN - the controllers are generally unbiased and will not vector us around the skies too much to allow a spanish aircraft to get 3 miles in front of us! It happens of course, but not as much as Madrid! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

The ground controllers especially earn my respect - they look out of the window before giving instructions, they help me when I take a wrong turn on the new taxiways and they speak english whenever there is a deconfliction between us and another spanish aircraft. Again, sadly not the case in Madrid.

But thats how respect is earned; a professional job done in a professional manner. Such people will get my support in disputes such as this.

[Nightstop]

Total panic in the voice of a MAD GND Controller the other day when an inbound taxying aircraft requested an ambulance urgently. Clearly overloaded and unable to cope with the ambulance request and controlling at the same time, his R/T became rude and abrupt := .

[Bomber Harris]

Lighten up ATC W. Have a go at the twisted buggers here, not the sarcastic buggers. Got to be room for a cheeky comment even in the most sombre situations.

[McNulty]

Total panic in the voice of a MAD GND Controller the other day when an inbound taxying aircraft requested an ambulance urgently. Clearly overloaded and unable to cope with the ambulance request and controlling at the same time, his R/T became rude and abrupt := .

It's worrying - ground controllers in Mad are hopelessly incompetent buffoons during normal ops, who only seem to concentrate on giving spanish aircraft priority....when there is something abnormal/an emergency, these are not the people you want to have dealing with it.

[bobwi]

who only seem to concentrate on giving spanish aircraft priority....

I don't think they do that anymore. I have been cleared surprisingly before Spanish airlines a few times recently. Also I notice that Iberia is complaining much more over the radio about ATC than they used to do. Sometimes refering to the fact that ATC seems to forget that they are the "national".

A good example in Madrid the other day. We arrived at the holding point where an Iberia was already waiting. We were cleared to line up. Iberia than questioned the controlers about what slot time we had. It turned out that our slot was 3 minutes after theirs!!! Upon hearing this the Iberia pilot went through the rooth!! :D

[McNulty]

I dunno mate, my experience in the last week in Madrid, like always, is that ridiculous priority is given to Spanish airlines....the height of unprofessionalism and the level of frustration it builds up in the flight deck is a threat. :ugh:

[kick the tires]

We had to laugh today, going out to 36R, we had the usual 6 frequency changes from clearance to tower.

I kid you not, EVERY one said 'station calling' in response to our check in!!!!! Its sad but so so funny!

[Cernicalo]

Hello kick the tires,

Remember, with the new Royal Decree they are working 29 shifts in 30 days, This is, from June, in 60 days just 3 or 4 days off. No more. 50-55 hours per week, with night shifts. Discount on salaries around 70% ¡70%!. Sick days and hollidays are not being payed. Not a single weekend off.

Only one word: Mobbing.

I would say as well, Station calling, pleeeease, say again :ugh:

I am quite embarrased with the position of our fellow pilots, only kicking and beating controllers. I would ask for a little bit of comprension, very bad times for the Spanish controllers. Next one could be you.

Welcome Neoliberalism.:{

[ant1]

the government have decided that they be checked by social security GPs (rather than their own doctors), who found no grounds to justify a medical leave on something like 80% of the cases.

LH2, you really don't have a clue, do you? As I previously said to another poster, don't buy into the first story you hear.

In Spain only a Social Security doctor can send you home so they were sent home by SS doctors.

The government put pressure on those doctors (just like some companies put pressure on us on fuel issues, etc.) to revoke their decisions. After that, the Gov went on saying that if they could not stand the pressure maybe they should have their medical revoked. Cinism at its best.

Dusthog, the full approach at night is a consequence of the "Italian sentence to jail" (again do your homework). After that sentence the concerned Spanish ATCO's have tried to get -to no avail- a written answer on whether they are allowed to give visuals at night from the Spanish authorities.

That night we lowered ourselves to a level of Spanish ATC and I´m not proud over it.

I agree with you, you shouldn't be proud. I don't agree though that you lowered yourselves to the level of Spanish ATC. In Spain there's a saying: each one performs to his own standards (the ones that reflect who they actually are).

Mc Nutty, the biggest buffon around here is you but I guess it takes all kinds to make a world.

[andrijander]

Surprised nobody said anything as yet but there it goes.

92% of the controllers today voted (92% of 2036 active duty ones).

98% of them (1800 more or less) voted to strike. Dates not decided.


Good luck.

[Chesty Morgan]

Spanish air traffic controllers to strike | World news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/03/spain-air-traffic-controllers-strike)

18th August.

At last some spine.

[kick the tires]

Question for the Spanish ATCO's - are the salary figures quoted in Chesty's link correct?

[DFC]

I just looked at the video posted previously and have to say that I am not surprised.

Not long ago we were in the cruise over Spain and we could not get a response on the assigned frequency where we had previously established comms.

Thinking we had missed a call, gone out of range or had a comms failure, I asked my colleague to continue making calls while I called on 121.5.

Imagine my surprise when in the background of the "Station Calling Station Calling" I could hear my colleague calling.

5 seconds later all was normal and they could suddenly hear us again - Station Calling !!

perhaps there was a bun fight going on like the one on the video. :)

[calcagafo]

Negative!!

I can only tell you about Barcelona, but with ten years experience in BCN ACC I made close to 120.000 with the basic hours(1200) plus around 400 extra ones. I was one of the better paid, most of my partners never did an extra hour and they earned around 80.000.

That was last year, this year they are paying all of us around 60000 for 1750 hours.

Still, the money is not the issue, most of us are having only 3 or 4 days off each month, our holidays have been cancelled, people on sick leave taking medication non compatible with our job have been forced to go back to work and so on.

Best regards

[His dudeness]

most of us are having only 3 or 4 days off each month, our holidays have been cancelled, people on sick leave taking medication non compatible with our job have been forced to go back to work and so on.

This has to be stopped. Dangerous. To launch a strike because of such problems is right.

[kick the tires]

totally agree, days off are essential to recover and! revitalise!

What a shame the support from a large portion of the pilots is diminished by their experiences with the ATC in Madrid and indeed the assertion that we are all talking :mad: and there is no such thing as discrimination between nations aircraft!

[Cernicalo]

Kick the tires,

Many thanks for your support. When this nightmare ends, surely with lot of controllers being fired, and cutting salaries to 1500-2000€, (Remember lots of people with 30 year mortgages around 1500-1800€ in normal apartments, dammed real-state bubble)

Many controllers will look for another career, be sure about that. Sad ending for people that has been dedicated to get this job half a life.

Private companies will enter in the market. This is not bad. The bad things are how the goverment has imposed 3 Royal Decrees, with the worst t&C from England, The worst t&C from different countries.

Anyway, at least on my behalf, where I work, I can tell you: I make no differences between nationalities, and always speak English when there are Spanish/foreign traffics. This is always a little bit more difficult with some small GA traffics

Best regards,we will meet on the frecuency,

Cernicalo (Kestrel in spanish)

[uniform]

Cernicalo, most of the pilots realise that this situation has to stop and I'm sure that all of them would support you if you didn't choose the wrong enemy in the first place. What do you expect from us if we have the idea and impression that you fight against us (and the passengers) instead of the government. Do you really think your prime minister cares about the fact that you give us a CTOT of 2 hours and more and affect the life of millions of families. The only thing you've reached so far is that everybody is against you and joe public looks at you as spoiled, overpaid childeren. Pilots, airlines and especially passengers are a strong group if they stick together but so far you havn't figured out how to get them behind you. One thing is for sure, the way you're handling it now doesn't get you anywhere.

My support (and that of the colleagues I'm flying with) you have but don't expect something from our side if you shoot at us all time.

Good luck.....

[Avman]

Uniform, do you believe that pilots, airlines and Joe Public would care one iota if the Spanish controllers continued to provide 1st class service until they dropped dead? The answer would be a resounding NO, NO and NO. Working to rule is effectively working professionally.

[uniform]

Avman, They probably wouldn't but you seem to forget that they are not the ones who try to bring your terms and conditions down. I don't expect a first class service but at least joe public would support you instead of turning there backs against you. Politicians will not listen to you but they would definitaly do when you had the Spanish population behind you because they need their vote. Good luck anyway

[His dudeness]

Avman, do you think some pilots and airlines that are not spanish complaining will change anything?

I doubt that. They have to go on strike and make the spanish tourist industry suffer, thats the only way to make something happen. I guess the spanish ATCos are aware of the spanish economy and don´t wan´t to do harm, but ultimately they have to. Some never learn -> cutting costs is all good and well, but some services are essential to a modern state that on top of it lives at least partly from tourism...

[Airbrake]

Well at last the Spanish have decided to strike rather than play dangerous games with aircraft and the passengers inside them.

This thread would never have started if it had been any other Nation. We nearly all accept is that Spain is an ATC shambles. Whether it be due to general controlling issues, ridiculous vectoring and speed control in favour of their flag carriers or the recent "work to rule". Spain comes right at the bottom of any league table for controlling but they don't see this. We as pilots fly into a Spanish airport and then 2 hours later can be in northern Europe and having experienced the Spanish the professionalism of the Germans, swiss, Dutch and London controllers to name only a few is a welcome relief.

Some of the worst Spanish culprits should go and sit at an Amsterdam or London controllers desk for a shift and I truly think they would be embarrassed at the difference in attitude and professionalism on show.
If any of these nations controllers had been targeted in such a way for reductions in their T & Cs I would be 100% on their side. Unfortunately, when ever I see a Spanish destination on my roster I think here we go again.

I am genuinely pleased the Spanish have grown some nuts and decided to strike. The only problem is I am on days off and will not benefit from it.

[McNulty]

The decision to strike is a welcome one - if it means they stop the current ridiculous work to rule....dont have much faith though :ugh:

[ATC Watcher]

Bomber harris : sorry, missed the sarcasm bit. apologies.

Studi : like in other subjects , never asume what is in the media is correct. the "astronomical" salaries published are nowhere near reality today for 90% of the controllers, 60 to 100.000/year gross is more likely and this mid to below the european average. In any case the strike is not about money at all , it is about working conditions changed since february . The 12 points the controllers are asking for , and theatening to strike for, are about 28 days a month schedules, reduced rest periods, last minute extra duties ,changes, sector capacities being measured instead or imposed, etc.. that sort of things you would not accept either.The mood in Spain in the OPS rooms is not what you would call serene and concentrating on the job. This is safety related and is worrying me a lot.
This evening the military replacement threat seems to be off ( Zapatero intervened ) but the media circus is still at full blast against the controllers.
The reality is that we will all have to work together again tomorrow, so a bit of understanding and solidarity is not out of order.

Seing you're from GER, when the next Cockpit VC Luthansa pilots strike will be announced,I will also be supporting it, like I supported the last one because in the long term , it is our interest to support each other.

Greetings from MAD.
ATC W

[McNulty]

ATC Watcher,

Thanks for giving your side of the story, but striking/work to rule aside, what do you think of the allegations that the standard of ATC in Spain and in particular MAD, is far below the standards of control in other european countries?

[Sunnyjohn]

... and support from this SLF and ex- aircraft engineer, too. My nephew trained up to assistant ATC status but has refused to continue to train as a full ATC - he says the stress isn't worth the money!

[Avman]

Studi, in my opinion you talk absolute tripe. To start with it's not a slow-go (sic) as you profess. Secondly, Spanish ATCOs I spoke to several years ago were already very unhappy and critical of the hours they worked and the lack of adequate leave they had then. Their employer's solution to the known problem was simply to dangle the overtime financial carrot which, because of poor management recruiting policies, eventually grew beyond reasonable proportions. ATCOs subsequently suffered draconian overnight changes imposed on them because of those many years of total management incompetence!

I think you need to get real.

[Cernicalo]

Uniform,

Spanish controllers don't give you a CTOT of +2 hours. They make you to comply with the CTOT. If in some sectors, there are, in instance, 5 controllers, where usually are 9, then come the regulations... Regullations come for FMP in Brussels, we just make you to comply with the slot.

And lots of regulations some weeks ago came from France, and Spanish media and in the airports were said "Due to Controllers strike flights are being delayed or cancel....", with no precission with what was going on in France.

All the goverment and all the media in Spain are against the Air traffic controllers. And the real point is to show that "Nothing is working properly" to privatice the service.

Good idea coming for the big companies and banks that will buy our workplace very very cheap. We will see what will happen with our family life in the future....

PD: The France controllers seems that they realise they will be the next!. This game will be played in all Europe!

[dymonaz]

I'm not a pilot, nor an ATCo, so I'm probably horribly in the wrong here...

Can someone please explain me this:
hours/month: 160-200 (here (http://www.pprune.org/5846671-post444.html) and here (http://www.pprune.org/5824267-post304.html))
hours/year: 1670-1750 (here (http://www.pprune.org/5815561-post234.html) and here (http://www.pprune.org/5718077-post1.html))

If my maths are not wrong, Spanish ATCos should be getting at least 2 months of holidays and if the schedules are really tight - up to 4 months. So, once you're done with your required minimum - you should be able to just fly off to Bahamas for the rest of the year, or am I missing something?

I understand this is by far not ideal and rest is needed periodically, but surely this has to be taken into account.

[kontrolor]

depends on the ACC they are working in.

[kontrolor]

I just looked at the video posted previously and have to say that I am not surprised.

Not long ago we were in the cruise over Spain and we could not get a response on the assigned frequency where we had previously established comms.

Thinking we had missed a call, gone out of range or had a comms failure, I asked my colleague to continue making calls while I called on 121.5.

Imagine my surprise when in the background of the "Station Calling Station Calling" I could hear my colleague calling.

5 seconds later all was normal and they could suddenly hear us again - Station Calling !!
---------------------------

If you would only know, how many times per day I have to call the crews over and over again, because they don't respond to my calls....

[DjerbaDevil]

The news today is that AENA is going to the negotiating table with the Spanish ATCo Union with the proposal of guaranteeing a salary of a minimum of 200,000 Euros a year for the forseeable future (3 years)for the ATCo's to avoid the announced strike action.

There is already a new law which regulates their duties and rest periods and the British system of rosters for ATCo's has been largely copied.

In so far as the calculations of the hours to be worked by Spanish ATCo's , perhaps the following may give a better idea of the reality of the situation:

364 days in a year:
Less 52 Sundays
Less 52 Saturdays
Less 30 days holidays
Less 12 days local and national fiestas

Leaves a grand total of 218 "working" days.

The new law voted in democratically by all the Spanish Parliament with only one dissenting vote in February 2010 established the new T&C's that ATCo's could not work more than 1750 hours each year(which includes some overtime hours).

If we divide 1750 hours by 218 working days, we get the figure of 8 hours per working day, which is pretty good for a guaranteed salary of 200,000 Euros per year including 42 fiestas and holidays, which are also paid in full.

The Spanish ATCo's are saying that they are going on strike but not because of money. If they are only being asked to work 8 hours per day, which every other full time working human is expected to do (if not many more hours without any extra pay) for a very considerable salary of 200,000 euros, then perhaps someone could explain exactly what is the purpose of the announced strike.

Doubtless the response from them will be that we do not understand(which of course is quite true), or that greedy bankers are coming to buy out AENA for peanuts. But this has nothing to do with the ATCo's and if they feel so strongly about it then they should put their money where their mouth is and buy shares in AENA (for peanuts) when and if these are put up for sale. The sale of shares is open to everyone. The creation of ATC Companies is also open to everyone and the Spanish ATCo's have a priviledged position to create such companies to bid for the ATC service from AENA when the ATC service goes to private companies starting at some airports, as from next year.

Control Centers will be serviced by AENA and their ATCo's, so this service is safe for them for the future.

[ATC Watcher]

Not sure if it is worthwhile to continue preaching in the desert ....well, another try .

Mc Nulty : do not mix up direct routings and ATC services For me , and many others, ATC in Spain is safe so far. If the niceties like directs and RFLs are no longer given , it is a nuisance but just that, a nuisance.
I do not think ATS in Spain today is any worse than say , Italy , Morocco or Portugal, to take 3 of its neighbors.

Studi, you made up your mind already, so no point in giving you a different opinion or facts correct ?

But allow me one remark , from my pilot side ; you said :
so every pilot who is on strike risks his own job in the long run
My experience is that the vast majority of the pilots that did strike for their rights still do enjoy a good employment, it is rather the ones that backed down and followed their management to the wall that did not. I can name a few airlines here.

Djerba Devil : the 200.000/year in the press in Spain this morning is another decoy. Nothing like that was proposed during the negotiations with USCA . Someone is preparing the ground ( and the public) for some drastic measures I'd say.

Finally a small anecdote I'd like to share with you : On my return flight home this evening from MAD, long talk with the Captain comparing the fate of Spanish ATC and that of Spanair . Franco died 35 years ago exactly, but the working conditions when he was in charge are back for both professions 35 years later, and re-enforced by a socialist government....

[LH2]

the strike is not about money at all

HAR! HAR! HAR! :} :} That made me laugh!!

I do not think ATS in Spain today is any worse than say , Italy , Morocco or Portugal, to take 3 of its neighbors.

One begs to strongly disagree (and btw you forgot LXGB) :E

[Rod Eddington]

I also strongly disagree. Portuguese ATC is mostly excellent. Spanish is mostly dire. Italy not great but much better than Spain.

[kick the tires]

and dont forget the Dutch ATC - its a privilege to be controlled by them!

[retrosgone]

The idea that current Spanish "work to rule" is a minor inconvenience is, franky, utter nonsense. The amount of wasted fuel, airframe hours, additional maintenance and delays to schedules is costing the airline industry dearly at a time when margins are already very tightly squeezed. Yesterday, I had to listen to a painful converstaion between a Ryanair crew and a Barcelona sector ATCO. The aircraft was held down to FL260 "because that was what the flight plan said". The crew were very keen to establish a more economical and faster Flight Level, and a short-cut or two because they were already running hours late. The controller said they would have to follow "flight plan route" and stay at FL260. The exasperated captain (the sector was very obviously quiet) asked why, and received a convoluted (and untrue) explanation about European regulations mandating aircraft to stay on planned route and FL at all times! The ATCO stated -"is same all over the Europe"!!!

Of course, the moment you cross the Pyrenees, the French give you a short-cut and do their best to get you an optimum Flight Level. As for the childish, irresponsible and counter-productive behaviour of the Palma ATCOs when it comes to slots and releases - don't even get me started!

I have no doubt that the Spanish Controllers have legitimate grievances, as do most people in most workplaces from time to time. Nonetheless, they are well paid and in a secure job in a country with soaring unemployment and a desperate economic situation. The very last people they need to be taking their problems out on is their customers - the airlines and the passengers who are inconvenienced by their actions. It is those customers who really pay their wages, not the Spanish government or any future private employer.

Get real guys - the reason everyone seems to be against you is that you are behaving naively in believing that you are harming only some high official or your employer. The real damage is to your already poor reputation as reliable professionals.

[samotnik]

Hmmm, and why did the Ryanair planned themselves on FL260? The only idea that comes to mind is to avoid a slot.

[Avman]

Hmmm, and why did the Ryanair planned themselves on FL260? The only idea that comes to mind is to avoid a slot.

Exactly - and certainly not uncommon with RYR and others. Furthermore, THEY certainly don't care what impact their little tricks have on sector loads and on other operators. It's all ME ME ME these days.

[Airbrake]

And if you were running an Airline you would have all your aircraft sat on the ground waiting until the optimum Flight Level became available, and screw the schedule.

I was stuck at FL340 today no good reason, just the Spanish playing their games and 4000ft below optimum.

[DiCampo]

The controller said they would have to follow "flight plan route" and stay at FL260. The exasperated captain (the sector was very obviously quiet) asked why, and received a convoluted (and untrue) explanation about European regulations mandating aircraft to stay on planned route and FL at all times! The ATCO stated -"is same all over the Europe"!!!

It might not yet be, but I'm afraid it it coming in the (maybe not so) near future...

If you read some of the following, it looks like a rather scary prospect, but I think the eventual goal is to combine it with a 'free routes'kind of airspace...
EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM Adherence (http://www.eurocontrol.int/dmean/public/standard_page/FPL_ATFCM_adherence.html)

In any case, what I have read and heard from colleagues is that the official rules in Spain already include all of the above and that controllers can actually get punished for giving directs or non-filed flight levels.
I believe it is absolutely not bad will on their side, just the will to do what they have to do and for the rest stay out of trouble.


Also, be aware that somewhere in September there's supposed to be 2 days where the whole of Europe works along these guidelines as a sort of trial for the future.

www.adherencedays.com (http://www.adherencedays.com/)

[p_perez]

Airbrake wrote:

"I was stuck at FL340 today no good reason, just the Spanish playing their games and 4000ft below optimum."

Well, for the 100th time ...

You probably filed FL340 in your FP, and that´s what you were given. In Madrid FIR, some sectors are divided vertically: FL345- is one sector (Toledo?), FL345+ is another sector (Villatobas?), which in this case could be regulated due to sector capacity overload. Summer is high season in Spain.

Of course, you are not supposed to know this.

Of course, you shouldn´t rant on something you absolutely ignore ...


samotnik wrote:

"Hmmm, and why did the Ryanair planned themselves on FL260? The only idea that comes to mind is to avoid a slot."

Absolutely!

I have seen (and controlled) flights from Ryanair, departing airports in the south of Spain, with destination in northen Europe, and a requested cruise level of FL280 or FL300 for all their route, and after APP transfers control, the first thing they do is request FL360 or FL380.

This is simply cheating your fellow colleagues from other companies. PERIOD!

Why is it that this issue doesn´t get proper treatment from those same colleagues that are being cheated?

In my sector, if you file that you want to go to Oslo or to Warsaw at FL280, that´s what you get. I´ll give FL360 or FL380 to your colleagues from Air Berlin, or from Monarch, or from Easyjet because they honestly requested it.


Saludos!

[fireflybob]

I have seen (and controlled) flights from Ryanair, departing airports in the south of Spain, with destination in northen Europe, and a requested cruise level of FL280 or FL300 for all their route, and after APP transfers control, the first thing they do is request FL360 or FL380.

This is simply cheating your fellow colleagues from other companies. PERIOD!

Why is it that this issue doesn´t get proper treatment from those same colleagues that are being cheated?

In my sector, if you file that you want to go to Oslo or to Warsaw at FL280, that´s what you get. I´ll give FL360 or FL380 to your colleagues from Air Berlin, or from Monarch, or from Easyjet because they honestly requested it.

p_perez, sorry but your comments here are a distortion of the truth.

Nobody is trying to "cheat" anyone here but if I am capable of a higher (and more optimum level) there I will continue to ask for it. There are many reasons why this may be so but you are not a pilot so would not appreciate them. I full understand that higher levels may not be available. But what we see now in Spain, on a consistent basis, is higher levels being refused for no apparent reason whereas previously they have been granted. So maybe it's the Spanish ATC who are cheating all the airlines of operating more economically?

Also how do you explain when I am filed at FL380 that you tell me it is not available and I have to accept FL360 as happened recently? Please don't give me this BS about regulation/flow. I know that when I talk to almost every other ATC in Europe that they will attempt to accomodate a different level to that which is filed.

[Avman]

if I am capable of a higher (and more optimum level) there I will continue to ask for it. There are many reasons why this may be so but you are not a pilot so would not appreciate them.

:hmm:

Well if you want to be patronising, there are many different reasons why your optimum level can't be given but as you're not a controller you would not appreciate them.

[fireflybob]

Well if you want to be patronising, there are many different reasons why your optimum level can't be given but as you're not a controller you would not appreciate them.

Avman, I am sure that is the case and I fully understand that when I ask for a level other than flight plan it may not be available. But what we have seen over the last 2-3 months in Spain is that higher levels are being refused on a consistent basis whereas this is not the case elsewhere. Is Spain so different ATC wise to the rest of Europe?

My remark was not meant to be patronising but a statement of fact. There are reasons why we may make a request for a level other than flight plan. I referred to this, as did others, on another Prrune thread about this topic some time ago. I

[Airbrake]

Anybody here ever heard of an Iberia or Spanair stuck in the 20s/low 30s?

No? Thought not.

We are all aware that there are times when levels are blocked and you have to accept it. However, lets not think for one minute that this is a level playing field in Spain. Pilots know it and the controllers know. Lets not pretend otherwise.

[samotnik]

Nobody is trying to "cheat" anyone here but if I am capable of a higher (and more optimum level) there I will continue to ask for it.

OK, if you are planned at i.e. FL360 and able to fly at FL380, ask for it. But it's just a plain BS to say that you are planned at FL260 and suddenly 'able' to climb FL380. Come on, ATCos are not complete idiots. In such case there is no other explanation than cheating the flow system.

[samotnik]

Anybody here ever heard of an Iberia or Spanair stuck in the 20s/low 30s?

No? Thought not.

Maybe they just put a sane level in ther flight plans?

[fireflybob]

In such case there is no other explanation than cheating the flow system.

samotnik, sorry but I have to disagree with the word "cheating". Part of my remit as a professional pilot is to operate economically (this, of course, comes after safety). If the operating company chooses to file an advantageous level with respect to flow control/slots etc then they are quite entitled to do this. Our fuel plan will also, of course, represent this. However, when enroute one is quite entitled to ask for a different flight level and, of course, ATC are quite entitled to refuse such a request.

Personally, I don't see this as "cheating" merely a flexible response to the current system.

It's a shame that this thread has become, in part, a bit of a slanging match between pilots and ATC. As a pilot I have the greatest respect for our friends in Air Traffic Control and I do feel for the Spanish ATC whose terms and conditions are changing. I started flying professionally in 1971 when there seemed to be much more mutual respect between the two parties. I think we need to remember that we are able to operate safely through teamwork and cooperation. It is shame that since 9/11 we hardly ever seem to see controllers observing on the jump seat - I can assure you that, if it was permitted, you would be more than welcome on the flight deck.

[iwhak]

It's amazing that you cite FR as cheating the system (I agree by the way) they always do but they get away with it and it is unfair competition, my gripe however in Spanish airspace is that you talk in Spanish to local operators which I feel is unsafe and I know as I have a little Spanish that there is many a shortcut to be had if you speak the vernacular. Get real guys the industry needs this like a hole in the head between you and the French you will destroy it! If you do succeed I think as part of the deal it is time to force all ATCOs to speak English to all operators!

[eagleflyer]

What about clearly stating on the frequency that you will get punished by AENA if you give a shortcut or higher than filed flightlevel when asked for it? If this was the true reason, it´s what I´d be doing. You can´t be punished for speaking the truth.

I can´t understand your strict adherence to the CTOT either. In Germany we take full advantage of the 15-minute timeframe and on some routings, especially to Spain, we can (and do) give shortcuts that amount to about 40 miles.
Some of our sectors are also heavily regulated, but still we give direct routings through those sectors if traffic permits.
Air traffic is too complex and dynamic to try directing it without flexibility.

About the video I saw on youtube: it´s absolutely astonishing that anyone put it to the internet at all. It shows such an unprofessional behaviour that I don´t find any words for it. The people involved should rather be ashamed than putting it online. There are certainly other ways to express your anger towards your employer.

I can hardly believe that AENA would punish you for giving directs and higher levels but let people get away with the show on youtube.

[Avman]

Why should you explain anything on the r/t (which creates r/t overload by the way) when you are applying the rules?

What next? Giving reasons for just doing your job?

"ABC123, to avoid making a loud bang with a crossing heavy descend FL310. The reason I have chosen for you to descend is not because I find your company a real pain in the @rse but because you are much closer to your TOD than the conflicting traffic is. I'm terribly sorry about the extra fuel burn this will cause you".

[samotnik]

Personally, I don't see this as "cheating" merely a flexible response to the current system.

Wrong. CFMU has a complete overview of all regulations and limitations in European airspace. If it assigns a slot - it's because there is a restriction. If the restriction is no longer valid - your slot gets updated or cancelled.

The problem with requesting higher levels during flight is that ATCo on duty doesn't have such a big picture. If he gives you different level than flight planned, it's because a) he doesn't care, b) he believes you that the level you are requesting is the flight plan one, because he doesn't have time to check it, c) he doesn't have time to argue with you about this, d) he tries desperately to help you, thus putting his colleagues a dozen sectors away into trouble. There is no other option. Nobody ever has time to check your slot and its regulation and phone CFMU to check if it's still in force. At least not now, when airlines are forcing ANSP to save every single penny.

Requesting a different level than FPlanned is not cheating, it is about optimum fuel usage etc. OK. But planning yourself on some ridicolous, disasterous to fuel economy level and later requesting the correct one IS cheating. But the worst thing you can do is posting later on to PPRuNe about stupid ATCos who didn't allow you to cheat.

[kick the tires]

samontik,

I've been flying in europe for 20 years and it is only the past 2 months that filed flight levels are the only ones you are 'allowed' to fly at!

Has something changed, apart from the Spanish dispute (that I am finding increasingly difficult to support).

I havent referred to they French dispute as they have them every year!!:ok:

[Avman]

I've been flying in europe for 20 years and it is only the past 2 months that filed flight levels are the only ones you are 'allowed' to fly at!

Has something changed,

Yes! Try and keep up, it's been mentioned several times already! What the Spanish are doing is applying it to the letter. Other units are being put under increasing pressure by their management to do likewise where level changes and/or shortcuts would affect sector capacity management.

[fireflybob]

Wrong. CFMU has a complete overview of all regulations and limitations in European airspace. If it assigns a slot - it's because there is a restriction. If the restriction is no longer valid - your slot gets updated or cancelled.


samontik, you are misinterpreting what I am saying. When I said "Personally, I don't see this as "cheating" merely a flexible response to the current system." what I mean by that is what is wrong with filing a Flight Level which minimises slot delays? Are you saying this is illegal? Of course, if I am filed for a level I should be fully capable of flying that level boths in terms of performance and fuel planning etc?

I fully understand that whilst enroute if I ask for a level other than flight plan it may not be available for a myriad of reasons. Is it illegal to ask for a different level? What about weather avoidance? What about turbulence? Surely any ATC should have a degree of flexibility. Only last week Swiss asked me if I could climb to a higher level for traffic reasons which we accepted but this was not the Flight Plan level - is that cheating?

[samotnik]

Has something changed, apart from the Spanish dispute (that I am finding increasingly difficult to support).

Yes, a lot has changed!

Airlines are pushing ANSP to cut costs. In the good old times, which are gone, ATC staffing could be arranged with some margin. Even if forecasted traffic was to open 70% of sectors, there was enough 'spare' ATCos on shift to man another 10%, just in case. If there was no need, it resulted in a bit longer breaks, i.e. 1h10m instead of 1h. Of course, you have to hire more ATCos, or pay them overtime. But there was enough margin for any action you, as a pilot, would like to have.

Nowadays, airlines are 'working together' (i love this term) with ANSP to cut costs and they would like ATCos not to have breaks at all, and sector capacity pushed to the limits with no spare ATCos to take some load off of their colleagues in case the traffic flow is other than predicted. The cheapest solution. It works only if you stick close to CTOT windows and flight plan routings (every aircraft arrives on time) and flight plan levels (every aircraft arrives to proper sector).

It's just your companies that made your life difficult. Maybe some day they will realize that it's cheaper to pay higher ANSP rates, than to struggle with cost saving effects - which are slot times, no direct routings, flight plan levels and generally, no flexibility. No flexibility because there is no room left for it, because everything is pushed to its limits due to cost saving!

I hope I've explained it clearly. This is not Spanish ATC problem. I know this is a thread about them, but you should look at it in a broader context. It's pan-european now and getting worse. Germans, Swiss and other praised ANSPs will end up with this style of providing their service really really soon, because it's not about a single ATCo, it's not about their T&C, it's about economical crisis and lack of money in airline business!

Remember: stupid, penny-wise cost saving: REASON. Zero flexibility: EFFECT.

[Blockla]

...of course, ATC are quite entitled to refuse such a request.but you don't seem to see 'system integrity' as a valid reason for denying the request. Where I work we have little impact on the 'CFMU' level adherence processes as aircraft are usually still on climb to cruising levels, except for RYR aircraft that file at 260 or 280...:}

We certainly don't check every aircraft for level adherence before giving away requested levels. It would be impossible to do so across the board particularly for flight originating on the West side of the Atlantic etc.

We have very limited information in our electronic copy of your flight plan due to data issues; most of the route beyond one or two points outside our FIR is removed; thus we have almost no way of checking RFLs further down the line. We tend to ask the next unit if it looks like you are requesting something significantly different, if they say yes then we go for it; but this in no way represents 'how it should be done'.

We don't have management that the Spaniards currently have either, I have never heard of a controller here being asked by a manager why they gave a level not filed. Of course there will be an incident at some stage that will change this, I'm sure...

fireflybob, the level adherence is becoming ANSP SOPS, if your company SOPS said don't exceed 270 IAS below FL150 would you accept an ATC request for 310IAS till 20 DME from touch, or would you say unable to exceed 270IAS below FL150; even if you have been doing that regularly for the last 20 years? Unfortunately the CFMU level adherence system is going to be subjected to much higher scrutiny and 'auditing' and there will be "please explain"(s) made from various ANSPs. Welcome to the new world.

However, the problem with Strategic flow, ie sector workload protection by numbers of aircraft filed is it doesn't measure complexity. I have worked sectors over the last 20 years with 35+ aircraft on frequency and felt under no pressure and others with only 4-5 aircraft and felt under the pump; because of what is going on. The CFMU level adherence only attempts to regulate traffic the reality I feel, is far from perfect; ten aircraft at non-filed levels may be no problem on one day yet on anther day (or hour) just one may be too much... It also doesn't consider tactical reality, weather / turbulence, airport delays or anything short notice. etc.

Because Spanish ATC are implying the rules doesn't mean they haven't got a clue, perhaps they are just playing by the rules imposed; don't like it, bad luck, file at your "real" optimum flight level and see what you get then. We all know that certain airlines do file to get around the current CFMU system, they are playing the game, if the answer to the game is "no" then that's just the way it is, even if there is 'no apparent reason', no point bitching about it, especially here; you rolled the dice, you rolled snake eyes, see you next leg.

[BrATCO]

DjerbaDevil,

Assuming those journalist's figures are true, I would like to calculate them in an other way, that's :
200000€ / 1750€ = 114€/h
Is that gross or net ?

Another tricky calculation :
25 planes per hour (average traffic load for 24h on an average sector)
114€/h / 25 planes = 4€/h/plane

4€ per hour, that's what a company pays to get an ATCO's service for one plane in Spain. That's cheaper than a pint in a pub (my beer-flow is two pints of stout per hour...;))
Figures can be tricky. Furthermore when read in a so-called newspaper.


Samotnik,
Checking the SLAPs (SLot Allocation Procedures) is what we do in France, since our high up beancounters reminded us that a rule has to be stuck to.
Being French, we're also a bunch of rebels. So we change the levels again.

Each time a plane requests a level change, we check the strip (we still have them, that helps a bit) for RFLs on the route. Then if there's a doubt, we check with the FMP(Flow Management Position), the ones who deal with regulations, real-time, in the control room.
That's a real big lot of huge amounts of workload increase !
We don't respect RFLs each time, but we try to stick to the sectors. The limit to this method being, as you wrote, that we could overflow a sector somewhere in Europe that shouldn't have been flooded, as everyone should have been on RFLs.

So much for the ones who will take off later... They will probably have to stay lower, or wait for their CTOT.

Same for directs : we ask first, and we (most of the time) don't enter unexpected sectors anymore, hoping the directs we give won't save more than 8 minutes through France (half the CTOT allowance). Most of our routes are already quite straight and, often, a direct doesn't save more than few seconds, but if that helps pilots...
In order to make the answers quicker and more efficient in regard of the "Whole Thing", I think a solution would be to put a CHMI (CFMU Human-Machine Interface) on each control position. And, of course, a controler more to deal efficiently with regulations (that would cost 4€/h more...:p)

FireFlyBoy
Requesting different FLs is not "cheating", I see it just a bit unfair for the pilots who "stick a bit more to the rule".
And some of your collegues still haven't understood we could refuse a level change and why. Sometimes, when I refuse higher, or even when I accept not higher enough, the tone in their voice makes me think i'm a lazy, bad moody ATCO:ouch:. So, if I've got time for that, I explain the reasons why not higher.
That's a workload more and time I won't use to provide safety service to other planes. Is that a more professional behaviour than wandering in the control room for a few seconds ?:confused:

[samotnik]

samontik, you are misinterpreting what I am saying. When I said "Personally, I don't see this as "cheating" merely a flexible response to the current system." what I mean by that is what is wrong with filing a Flight Level which minimises slot delays? Are you saying this is illegal? Of course, if I am filed for a level I should be fully capable of flying that level boths in terms of performance and fuel planning etc?


Nothing is wrong with it. It's even good for everyone, since it reduces the overall daily load at upper sectors. But you should fly on this level and not expect that you will get a higher one. If you plan yourself a few levels down, you are routed through completely different sectors, one or even two sectors below the one handling the 'optimum' FL.

Instead I read here over and over again things like 'stupid, overpaid ATCo didn't approve my climb from FP FL260 to FL380. I think these chimps should all be fired right now!'.

It should be like this instead: 'some wonderful, helpful ATCo disregarded my flight plan level of FL260, working against his SOP and Eurocontrol guidelines, and approved climb to FL380. I should send him a bottle of Scotch as soon as I get on the ground, because for my comfort of no CTOT he overloaded his colleague in the next FIR without a blink of an eye.'. ;-)


I fully understand that whilst enroute if I ask for a level other than flight plan it may not be available for a myriad of reasons. Is it illegal to ask for a different level?


Nope. It's legal. But you don't simply ask and accept a refusal. Later you spoil tons of your frustration all over the Internet. Many people will believe you that it's the nasty controller who does everything he can to ruin your flight and not you, who tries to exploit some weaknesses of this system, which is bad for all airspace users (remember that an overloaded ATCo provides bad service for everybody, not just you!!!).


What about weather avoidance? What about turbulence? Surely any ATC should have a degree of flexibility. Only last week Swiss asked me if I could climb to a higher level for traffic reasons which we accepted but this was not the Flight Plan level - is that cheating?

It's pointless to discuss with someone comparing level change due to turbulence with exploiting flow system.

[kick the tires]

Nowadays, airlines are 'working together' (i love this term) with ANSP to cut costs

Samontik, thanks for taking time to explain that; I appreciate it. From your explanation, it seems that the airlines are asking for reduced eurocharges (sorry, dont know the correct terminology) and this is driving the work to rule with flight plans. We at easy have suffered from the penny pinching Andy Harrison, our now gone (thankfully) chief executive who cut the cost base to get his bonus. Of course, now we are paying the price with lack of crews and infrastructure. We call it reinventing the wheel!!

Its the first time 'working together' has been mentioned on here, unless I have missed it (in which case I'd better apologise to Avman first!).

I understand your reasoning though, thanks.

What I struggle with is the alienation of non national aircraft here in Madrid; the bias shown to the flag carriers by your fellow controllers is nothing short of embarrassing. To then have people like perez say that it doesnt happen, sorry, rarely happens, is just folly.

This turns me away from supporting your action on the 15th.

[BrATCO]

What about weather avoidance? What about turbulence? Surely any ATC should have a degree of flexibility.
When the system works, capacities are not the same when the weather is CAVOK as when there are CBs, turbulence, active military airspaces... (around 20-30% less)

But a SLAP is effective only after 2 hours. So ATCOs have to deal with unexpected weather for 2 hours before being protected (at last !).
If the sector happens to be already overloaded when it occurs, then the other solution is to immediately stop all departures towards this sector.

[BrATCO]

KTT,
I havent referred to they French dispute as they have them every year!!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
In fact, we French have been encountering the same(ish) kind of big problems as in Spain for the last 11 months.
Personally happy you don't feel it too much now, but this story is really not over yet.
The "thumb down" thread on French ATC could be dug out some day... And it will be for the same reason as one year ago.

[fireflybob]

Nope. It's legal. But you don't simply ask and accept a refusal. Later you spoil tons of your frustration all over the Internet.

samotnik, Iim not sure who you mean by "you" here! If ever I am refused a higher level I have always graciously accepted so although I have heard others on the frequency questioning why? I am also not aware that I have "spoiled tons of frustration over the internet" but when for many years one has been used to asking for a higher level and it being granted it's a significant change when such requests are now routinely denied mainly, in my experience, in Spain and France.

Surely one purpose of this forum is exchange of information. It is quite natural that pilots and controllers see things from a different perspective. As a pilot I don't claim to know everything (or hardly anything! LOL) about flow control. Perhaps the aviation authorities need to spend some time disseminating this sort of information in a manner which is easily understandable instead of reverting to documentation which requires a degree in nuclear physics to begin to understand.

Thankyou for informing me of things from your side which has been useful.

fireflybob, the level adherence is becoming ANSP SOPS, if your company SOPS said don't exceed 270 IAS below FL150 would you accept an ATC request for 310IAS till 20 DME from touch, or would you say unable to exceed 270IAS below FL150; even if you have been doing that regularly for the last 20 years?

Blockla, obviously if it's written like that in my Ops Manual then I wouldn't be able to comply but such an "instruction" would probably explain circumstances where it was permissable to do so. For example, greater than 250 kts is permitted, at the Captain's discretion, in certain circumstances. Are the ANSP SOPS that inflexible?

[Blockla]

Are the ANSP SOPS that inflexible?They certainly can be, might be something like "without coordination to all effected units RFL must not be exceeded"; if it's a long flight then it's impossible to complete the coordination so the answer will be unable... (Normally you only have buttons to your direct neighbours). But most instructions are "shall not's" etc.

The Irish instruction says something like "shall not exceed the RFL unless it's required for separation". ie the RYR that departs via LND from Kerry conflicting with the RYR that departs via LND from Knock converging just South of Cork; if both have filed FL280 we can put one higher... That said we normally ask London and if they say yes, happy days...

[Nightstop]

We called "fully ready" on MAD Delivery this morning, having been stepped on deliberately multiple times by Iberia (or that little airline masquerading as Iberia...Air Nuseum or something?). Told curtly to "standby, I'll call you back". 8 minutes later the same controller asks if we're fully ready! "Yes", we said, "we told you we were fully ready 8 minutes ago!". "Well", she said, "I couldn't give you clearance 8 minutes ago but now I can, and that's why I'm asking if you're fully ready".

Give me strength, and continuing patience to work with these people please :ugh:

[maggot738]

On stand for the usual 25 minute turnaround on time at 1020. Scheduled departure time for the next flight was 1045. CTOT 1050. Called for push and start at 1048. Request denied by ATC as buried in the Spanish rules and regulations is a little known regulation that a start clearance must be requested 15 minutes before the CTOT. The aircraft must be fully ready to push when requesting start clearnce. therefore any CTOT less than scheduled departure time plus 15 minutes becomes unworkable. Now before you say they are the rules and we must adhere to them etc, a few days later in very similar circumstances, the controller approved our push and start. It appears to me that there are some Spanish ATCO's who are almost militant in enforcing the "Rules" while others are a little more practical and accomodating. ATCO's in Madrid are generally more accomodating than ATCO's in Alicante or Seville etc. I am based in Spain so deal with this rubbish on a daily basis. Maybe the airlines should send the controllers concerned the bills for additional fuel burn etc. I'm sure then their rules and regulations would be a lot less rigid.

Maggot

[samotnik]

maggot, minimal CTOT is EOBT plus taxitime. In this case it looks like the taxitime was 5min. Since it should include pushback time, it's very very short - are you sure of these times you mentioned? But in case of such short taxi time, forcing crews to be fully ready at some fixed time is wrong. Crew should be fully ready with pushback tug and so on at CTOT-taxitime. That's what CFMU manuals say. Or if they are before, they should request ready message, which in my opinion can not be denied by ATC, unless in some non-standard situation at the aerodrome. Taxi times of course are variable depending on stand, so it requires some understanding both from crew and ATC. Unfortunately, in real life, there are crews that abuse such flexibility offered by ATC. And that's a problem - how to recognize a crew that will be ready on time when requesting startup after CTOT from a crew that is just hoping that once they are cleared for pushed back, ATC will have mercy and let them depart well after CTOT window... ;) Because there MUST be some rules, otherwise there would be a complete chaos and no ATC required anyway.

And yes, airspace users should cooperate with ANSP. But unfortunately this whole 'cooperation' looks like they just demand ANSPs to be cheaper and that's it. Sometimes it ends up with higher costs due to extra fuel, missed flights, compensation to pax and so on.

I'm not defending my Spanish colleagues here. There might be individuals among them who provide poor service. But viewed from the other side - such situations are at least as complex, as seen from the cockpit. And no easy solution.

[Greenpilots]

I think we all had our fair share with Spanish controllers.

We were the only aircraft on the frequency approaching MAD. Controller clears us for 7000' and sends us to his colleague. We think: cool, we are getting a short cut (minimum altitude is 10.000' I think due to mountains and you would have to turn earlier then, allowing a short approach). We tell the next controller our cleared altitude. After getting nervous that we are flying closer towards the mountains, we called the chap on the radio again, which resulted in loud screaming "Climb immediatly 11.000', you are below my minimum radar vectoring altitude! Later on we are approaching the runway. 18 is in use and we are expecting 18R. But today we are inbound from the east and while crossing the localizer of 18L we ask when to expect our approach clearence for 18R. So the controller screams at us again, saying that it is of course 18L, as always when coming in from the east (yeah, like if I was at MAD every day). All in all, four controllers did a very bad job that day.
The other day we are standing in Barcelona. We had a comfortable ground time and were ready waaaay ahead of schedule. So about 25 mins prior scheduled off-block we are calling in, answer is "no, you can not be airborne before your planned departure time" What? They made us wait another 15 minutes, while about TWO aircraft took off. Is it the law? Maybe. Does it make sense to me? No.
Once again in Barcelona, winds were very shifty that day and 25L was in use for departure. Unfortunately there was a tailwind of nearly than 10 knots from time to time (according ATIS) and we are not allowed to have more than 10kts tailwind on departure. So now I am calling Delivery, asking for a wind check. You think that she understands me? I am not Chinese, Russian or somehwat and speak Englisch fairly well, but there I am, not being understood when asking for the current wind. I tried "Wind check", "Current wind", "wind speed" and "W I N D", but gave up after the fourth call. Is that normal? Definitly not. Did it happen in Spain? Yes.

I know there are people that really do a good job, but the average is really below any European standard. And I am not taking into account that I only understand half of the ATC calls (it is always funny when controllers get mixed up with languages...).

However, the question I really wanted to ask is: When/Are you going to strike?

[Denti]

There might be individuals among them who provide poor service.

That would mean that the majority provides a good service. Sadly it is exactly the other way round. There are some very rare individuals who provide adequate to sometimes even good service, the majority provides abysmal service and in many cases downright dangerous instructions.

[Avman]

Maybe the airlines should send the controllers concerned the bills for additional fuel burn etc. I'm sure then their rules and regulations would be a lot less rigid.

What you obviously fail to grasp maggot is that they are demonstrating to both you the user and to their employers how rigid things do become when the rules are applied. Didn't you know that employers expect their employees to adhere to the rules?! Maybe we should all do it? You'd be sending your excess fuel bills to the wrong people!

[Del Prado]

Quote:
Maybe the airlines should send the controllers concerned the bills for additional fuel burn etc.


good idea. And for every short cut you could send the ATCO concerned the fuel saving.

Across Europe would your airline be up or down on that deal?

[733driver]

I would agree that often Spanish ATC is not great and sometimes outright dangerous.

However, maybe you could have dealt differetly with the situations you describe? Instead of assuming (never good), confirm that your cleared altitude will keep you save.

Ask for approach clearance or at least the expected ILS way before crossing the parallel approach.

Just listen on the tower frequncy for the current winds. Every t/O clearance comes with a wind check and most if not all aircraft/operators are limited to 10 knots tail wind just like you guys.

Not saying all is well in Spain just giving you some ideas of how to stay safe and minimize frustrations. You will see that this will help a great deal when you transfer to a long haul fleet and fly (far) beyond Europe.

[Greenpilots]

Hi there,

good comment. We did make sure we aren't flying into these mountains, we were above the mountains in a safe altitude still, when confirming our clearence. Point is that they didn't notice it was unsafe (two sectors involved). If you are getting a vector for final and there is constant talk in Spanish on the radio and you can't get through, what do you do? Difficult question. In our mind set it was clear back then, that we would take 18R. I am not saying that pilots are not doing things wrong, as mistakes happen to everyone, but it is often the case when flying to Spain that one wonders what these people are actually paid for. I am sorry to say, but that is the case.

And regarding the wind. Really help a great deal, standing on the runway, knowing the wind is far off limits (not taking into account the performance and safety penalties that go with it). Might be time for a runway change prior to that happening. Part two of the story was me trying to get the other runway instead, but I don't want to bother you with my stories the whole night and I would just get to excited about the whole topic again... :ugh:

[733driver]

I think you may have misunderstood my suggestion with regards to the wind-check. I wasn't suggesting to wait until you are on the runway. But when delivery couldn't give you a wind check (for whatever reason) you could have just tuned the tower frequency for the departure runway and listened in. The next t/o clearance would have included the wind and you could have worked out your numbers while still on stand.

[TBSC]

minimal CTOT is EOBT plus taxitime
It is not rare to get a CTOT=EOBT+2 mins.