Spanish ATC

[cortilla]

I've had many negative dealings with Spanish atc and I can only complement one station. The ladies and gentlemen at Reus are very good. They realise that there needs to be some flexibility in the system and they work their asses off to accommodate us. I've been there twice and both times tower has been excellent.

Anyways my main point has to be that finally someone from Spanish atc has admitted that this situation has nothing to do with safety but everything to do with throwing their toys out of the pram. Yes Avman your post spelled it out exactly. Your post spells out exactly that Spanish controllers are flexing their muscles to tell everyone who's boss and nowt else. Aren't you guys n gals just great And yes i know sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

[samotnik]

It is not rare to get a CTOT=EOBT+2 mins.

Then someone failed to do his job to set up taxitime properly.

[Avman]

cortilla, I don't work in Spain, but I do have some empathy with their predicament (and I'm NOT talking about the financial aspect).

[zerotohero]

Flew into STN yesterday, departing we were told line up behind the landing traffic and be ready, then while lined up told cleared immediate take off landing traffic at 3miles, landing traffic told expect late landing clearance.

lol,, down in Madrid the first landing traffic would have taken up the hold because we were about to call for taxi! :mad:

They really are poor down there, The UK ATC show how its done with just one runway let alone 4!,,, O and the weather was poor too with popping out at about 150ft from minimums :D

[maggot738]

Couldn,t agree with you more. I think it should be mandatory for all Spanish ATCO's to spend some time in a place like Gatwick to see how professional competant controllers keep everything on the rails with a minimum of fuss and a maximum of common courtesy.

And to Avman and the other controllers here, it is not my empolyer that denies requests for shortcuts or the requests for climbs to optimum cruise levels. Fuel burned equals more carbon in the atmosphere. Hey, but what do you guys care. You are making your point at the expence of everyone else and that's all that matters, right?

Maggot

[Avman]

You are making your point at the expence of everyone else and that's all that matters, right?

Well er yes, I think that's generally the case when you want to make a point and all else has failed miserably because of stubborn management intransigence. Of course they could go on strike and bring everything to a grinding stop. Would that suit you better?

Of course, fortunately for me (as a passenger), thanks to the professionals that they are, I never suffer delays and cancellations due to pilot or CC strikes! :rolleyes:

[malagamike]

hi
does anyone know the latest about the planned atc strike in spain this month. ie are dates times etc confirmed yet?
cheers

[Wind Shear Ahead]

Hi Malagamike...

Spanish ATC Union (USCA) confirmed yestarday that they will be no strike thru August. Negotiations resumed today. Strike option still left open for sept.

WSA

[zerotohero]

I would rather an all out strike than a go slow useless effort of ATC, strike, sort yourself out, win or lose and get back on with it or if your not happy go home, dragging this out is just a joke.

[Avman]

A go slow is industrial action and different to working to rule. As far as I'm aware the Spanish controllers are not taking industrial action but simply working to the published rules. That does indeed effectively slow things down but cannot legally be considered as any form of industrial action. Very clever if you ask me.

[kick the tires]

Business as usual then!!!!

[foxcharliep2]

According to „El Pais“ news just published in their online edition, an agreement between AENA and ATC union is likely to be signed later today and the strike threat by ATC will be scrapped.

ATC union spokesman Cesar Cabo is quoted as saying : "There won’t be a strike in August or later”

Shifts will be 4 days on with 2 days off and overtime will be voluntary.

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/economia/controladores/AENA/paso/alcanzar/acuerdo/elpepueco/20100813elpepueco_8/Tes (http://www.elpais.com/articulo/economia/controladores/AENA/paso/alcanzar/acuerdo/elpepueco/20100813elpepueco_8/Tes)

[hapzim]

Back to poor controlling and preference to local airlines :eek:

[andrijander]

Back to bashing and to read remarks that bring nothing to the debate :ugh:

[ant1]

Amigo andrijander, you are witnessing the anglo saxon version of Manolo el del Bombo

http://www.absolutvalencia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Manolo-el-del-Bombo.jpg

(a picture is worth a thousand words).

[McNulty]

After having the misfortune today of flying in and out of spanish airspace, it seems the donkeys are still working to rule. No directs, myserious holds in very quiet airspace and not to mention getting pricked around in order to give way to iberia....throw in your several "station calling"´s and the usual general chaos, it seems to be business as usual for these wonderful professionals :D

[IcePack]

Yep, the only people being P****d. About are passengers & crews. I bet not one non-Spanish airline has complained officially to the Spanish Government. So Spanish ATC WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO GAIN ?
This ain't working, just annoying workers just like you!

[ATC Watcher]

This ain't working,
No, wrong, it looks like it worked , they might get a 4/2 shift system like most of the rest of Europe as a result of this action.
just annoying workers just like you
That is the whole point of industrial action I'd say. If an action does not have any impact , you won't get anything.

Remember that next time it might your turn to follow a Union action to defend whatever you think is important for you and you will certainly annoy a lot of people as a result.
I 'd love to still be around then to read your arguments.:E

[J.O.]

ATC;

Unlike the Spanish ATC, should a pilot group elect to drop tools in an industrial disagreement, they are not the only game in town and the customer base will simply take their business elsewhere. We do not have that option with ATC in Spain. That is why it is so frustrating to put up with their continuing nonsense. A colleague of mine had a two turn hold on a VMC day at Reus yesterday because a C172 on a practice IFR flight was slotted in ahead of them by Barcelona. :ugh:

[crapshooter]

Guys,

This is standard stuff for ATC Espanol. I dealt with this cr@p for years while stationed at Torrejon Air Base in Madrid. It is their culture, and no matter what comments you make about the "system" through official channels, it will not change their way of thinking. They loath most foreign carriers, especially US.

I speak based on experience. I've been married to a Spanish Lady for more than 20 years and have a "polite" relationship with her family back in Spain.

Best thing is to not show frustration in your voice over the radio... it will only feed the fire.

Cheers

CS

[zzjayca]

J.O.

So because ATC is a monopoly, they should bend over and take it?

I believe, at least on this side of the pond, if more pilot's had stood up to management over the years similar to what the Spanish ATC is doing, your career wouldn't have eroded to the point where it is no longer much of a career.

[Baron737]

The window is there solely for ATC use, to allow for taxiway and holding point congestion which might prevent an aircraft getting airborne at its Calculated Take Off Time (CTOT). ATC can, and often do, apply their discretion of course and use it to make up for operator shortfalls, but that's not ultimately what it is in place for. On that basis, pilots have no right to demand its application for their flight. It really makes me sick to read such formal justifications of that sick european slot system.

What are the facts ?

1. Aircraft ready to go have to wait, because of their slots. When finally released they burn max fuel to gain some minutes back.

2. Aircraft not ready to go are pushed to reach their slots.
(I tried to take off without flaps two times - I caught me taxiing with 40 knots.
Am I the only one making mistakes in a hurry to reach a slot ??? )

Various incidents do proof, that this is the opposite of a system that should support
flight safety.

3. Flights delayed by ATC pay the same ATC Fees as flights not delayed by ATC.

4. Every flight can be sabotaged by ATC by sticking to the rules: example:

You request start up at CTOT -20. They say: "Standby for start due to your slot."
You get start up at CTOT -10. You wait for push around 10 min. - you taxi 15 min,
and then you hear: "you just missed your slot"

I never experienced this in Spain so far. But in Germany (FRA,MUC,DUS) and Italy (FCO) this is "normal" procedure.

Some more facts about "slots" and flight safety:

You have a one hour deicing queue. You have a slot starting in 30 min. They tell you: "You will not make your slot, call your operator". You ask:
" What CTOT shall i try to get ?" ATC answers: " I don´t know [...and I don´t care]".
You organize a new slot. You get deicing. Hold over time is running out, waiting for your slot. IS THIS FLIGHT SAFETY ? This is bull****, and nothing else.

[ATC Watcher]

(red ?) Baron737 :
ATC and ATFM are 2 different things that do not always work well . ATFM is there to regulate traffic, so that the peaks are smoothed and safety is maintained. ATC would rather prefer that the sytem ( including staff numbers) and the environment ( e.g. airports and runways ) would cater for the demand at all times, i.e. including the peaks. Unfortunately economics comes along and we have a system that is there for the average traffic, not for the high demand periods.

CTOTs adherence are as much ( if not more ) a pain for controllers than for pilots.But contrary to your perception , they increase safety, because they try to prevent everybody arriving at the same time at the same place.

The examples you give are bad,agreed, but they are exceptions rather than the rule. On average the system does not work too badly and we do not have the hours of delays we had in the 70-80s with less than half the traffic and roughly the same ground infrastructure.

De-icing and AFTM does not work well, we all know this. But there are little alternatives at present, other than building more de-icing gates ( for how many times a year ?) or having a big brother computer that will issue one slot only taking into account everything like : gate occupancy, taxiway occupancy, departure runway slot, de-icing slot ,airport slot and enroute sectors slot . I know some people are working on this, we should wish them good luck.
In the meantime relax, and accept that the ATC system is no longer there to serve you, as an individual pilot, but rather to try to serve the (sometimes conflicting ) needs of the whole aviation community.

ATCW
PS: the above is not Spain related .

[eagleflyer]

How is the slot business done in the US?

[Mikehotel152]

I distinctly heard a vuvuzela in the background while talking to Madrid ATC this afternoon. Watching re-runs of the World Cup? :p

That said, my last two flights through Spanish airspace have seen an improvement. Today we actually got to cruise at a level higher than filed! :eek: ATC even prompted us to request higher by asking if the ride was a little choppy, implying that they would give us a climb if we gave them an excuse.

In the meantime relax, and accept that the ATC system is no longer there to serve you, as an individual pilot, but rather to try to serve the (sometimes conflicting ) needs of the whole aviation community.

Amazing how busier ATC in the rest of Europe manages to serve the needs of the 'individual pilot'.

[ATC Watcher]

MH152 : Amazing how busier ATC in the rest of Europe manages to serve the needs of the 'individual pilot'.

I said my post was not Spain specific , I was trying to reply on ATFM slots , not Spain.
I you think ATC in Europe is only about getting you direct routings and higher than filed RFLs, perhaps you're flying in the wrong places on the wrong Flight Rules.

[NuGuy]

Hi Eagle,

No such thing in the US. No such thing as a formal "slot", and terms like "slot improvement" mean nothing to your typical US ATC guy or gal.

You get your clearance over voice or PDC (via ACARS). You close up, call for your push back and start when you're ready (I can't think of a single place that requires you to call for a start clearance). In %99 of the cases, "Ramp Control" (Apron, on your side, I guess) is a function of the company running the gates at the terminal, NOT an ATC function.

Once you get to the border of the movement area (where the real ATC takes over), you call them, and you taxi down to the end of the runway, and when you are next in line, you go. First come, first served. Sometimes the Tower will jockey around the departure seuqnce a bit to even out the traffic on the departures, but even that is pretty rare.

Now, with that said, under certain conditions, some airports may have flow restrictions because of weather or traffic flow. In which case you will be issued a "Expect Departure Clearance Time" (or EDCT), but this is the exception, not the rule, and is situationally based. If you are blasting off from KMSP to KORD, and there aren't any TRWs or other foul weather, you're going to blast off when you get to the end of the runway.

All ATC in the US wants out of life is to get you out of their hair as quickly and safely as they can, which means getting you going in the right direction ASAP. Even if you have an EDCT, they are always trying to get you going early.

In the case of when the weather (%99 of the time caused by TRWs), most places have coded departure routes (CDRs), which will provide a near instant reroute that (a number of which will be pre-approved by your dispatcher), so there's no coordination with the company. Get the CDR around the weather, and you're gone.

ATC will also utilize low level departures if you're fat on fuel and the upper sectors are saturated (happens sometimes, again mostly TRW related, but I haven't seen that in a bunch of years). OR, if you're OK with staying below 10k for a while, you can even utilize a technqiue called "Tower enroute", where you can utilize a sequence of adjacent approach control airspace...you don't even talk to center.

My point is that US ATC has the goal of getting you going in the right direction as soon as possible, and there are any number of means that provide safe and legal separation. You may wind up at a slower airspeed, a different altitude, or get vectored for a bit, but you are off an running. Generally though, a different route, altitude or airspeed is yours for the asking.

Don't confuse the term "slots" when used in reference to certain high-density airports in the US, like KLGA. They only refer to a pair of operations (T/O & Landing), and not to a specific time.

Nu

[Baron737]

...for explaining us how ATC could work:

All ATC in the US wants out of life is to get you out of their hair as quickly and safely as they can, which means getting you going in the right direction ASAP. Even if you have an EDCT, they are always trying to get you going early.We have the opposite system here: (well said by ATC Watcher)

In the meantime relax, and accept that the ATC system is no longer there to serve you, as an individual pilot, but rather to try to serve the (sometimes conflicting ) needs of the whole aviation community.Because it is perhaps hard for you to understand what is going on here in Europe one more quick example of our "slot system" ( I don´t take a safety issue this time :) ):

You are the only one at the airport early in the morning. You get a slot delay of 20 mins today. The tower controller is friendly. He lets you out at CTOT-7 (he is allowed only CTOT-5). You have unusual easterly wind and make unother 6 mins because of the departure rwy. Now you fly your 45 mins enroute at max speed max fuel flow. You make together with shortcuts another 4 mins. You approach direct with max speed and make another 5 mins to touchdown (you are again the only one). Now you are proud: you are 2 mins early !!

The sense of the 20 mins slot delay ? Nobody will be able to explain. Perhaps: "...it did serve the needs of the whole aviation community" :ok:

[ATC Watcher]

Baron, you are barking at the wrong tree. I spend my all carreer ( passed in Maastricht UAC) giving directs and Req levels whenever I could because that was our culture then. Also, when I am busy, the earliest you are gone from my frequency the better it is for me. So we have a common interest there.Controllers generally do not like ATFM restrictions. It add to their workload.

Problem is that when the hub system sarted , you were sent to holding patterns in your arr airport quite often .1 hour holding in FRA or LHR on a Monday morning was common then .
The game changed when the airlines did not want to hold in the air anymore but on the ground.That was cheaper. ATFM was born. It is not an ATC invention to bother you , it was an " Aircraft Operators urgent need " as ICAO called it back then.

Comparing the US situation with Europe is pointless in many ways. Also ATFM , in the US 90% of restrictions are due to Weather 10% "volume" as they call it, In Europe it is almost excatly the opposite. Build more airports and more runways and get rid of the military airspace around civil airports in Europe and we can talk again .

[VinMan]

The sense of the 20 mins slot delay ? Nobody will be able to explain.

Simply a matter of capacity of the various ATC sectors through which your flight was supposed to fly (according to the filed plan).
If you departed earlier and flew at a different FL, you fooled all the previsions and some other flights may well have been delayed (because of you) in vain.

But that is none of your concern I guess.

[Surferboy]

You are the only one at the airport early in the morning. You get a slot delay of 20 mins today. The tower controller is friendly. He lets you out at CTOT-7 (he is allowed only CTOT-5). You have unusual easterly wind and make unother 6 mins because of the departure rwy. Now you fly your 45 mins enroute at max speed max fuel flow. You make together with shortcuts another 4 mins. You approach direct with max speed and make another 5 mins to touchdown (you are again the only one). Now you are proud: you are 2 mins early !!

The sense of the 20 mins slot delay ? Nobody will be able to explain. Perhaps: "...it did serve the needs of the whole aviation community" http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Slot delays can be in place for more than only the first or last sector, so maybe in this example the third of fourth of fifth or... (you get the point)-sector was overloaded during the time you were planned there. With you starting 13 minutes late (and not only you but probably a few more who filed that via that part of airspace during that time), you get there after the peak in traffic. Wich can be only a few minutes, but could mean serious overloaded situations if you (and the others who are slotted) would be there as well within those minutes.

And therefore the controller has enough capacity to provide you with dct's etc.

Maybe a day or two at a larger ATC-facility with an FMP-desk would open up your mind a bit.

How far out are you reduced into large US-airfields? How much time do you spend alongside the runway with you engines running at large US Fields? No comparrison to be made here...

[Chesty Morgan]

Palma was a joke this morning.

Everyone getting slots (according to ops they were departure restrictions at Palma, too many departures) roughly an hour after STD. Nothing at the holding point for about half an hour or so, nobody able to leave on schedule because of the slots.

Then...everybody pushing and starting within minutes of each other, to make the slots, by the time we got in the queue we were number 15 for departure and over 40 minutes of engines running and going nowhere slowly. Similar types getting airborne with 3 minute spacings. 757's being put in front of ATR's and the like. Oh yes and we got airborne about 20 minutes after our slot time.

Fantastic use of slots there chaps! Much more efficient.:ugh:

[foxcharliep2]

According to "El Pais" online, 90% of Spanish ATC staff have agreed to a settlement of the dispute with the government.

Los controladores aéreos ratifican en asamblea el pacto con AENA · ELPAÍS.com (http://www.elpais.com/articulo/economia/controladores/aereos/ratifican/asamblea/pacto/AENA/elpepueco/20100819elpepueco_6/Tes)

Further negotiations will held from September to reach a new permanent contract.

[lurkio]

I have to say that when I went into Madrid today at about 14z when the weather was building to the north the service we got was very good. No excitement just efficient controlling and working with the aircraft to get everyone in. Well done.

[Lance]

Flying down to LEMG this evening and heard a Ryanair who was going north to Domingo rqst left to avoid wx which was undoubtedly present. Madrid ATC initially said there was no weather ahead and even when pressed by FR was most reluctant to allow any deviation. In fact I do not recall any hdg actually permitted by ATC. At least an ASR filed if it was me. I have never heard anything like this before and was quite astonished.

[Nightstop]

I overheard recently an aircraft requesting a diversion from an east coast Spanish airport, despite repeated requests the ATCO refused permission for the aircraft to leave the Hold and proceed en-route to the Alternate! Last I heard the Crew told him to get stuffed and diverted en-route anyway....before their fuel ran out :mad:

[Chesty Morgan]

To Chesty: the very moment you enter Spanish airspace, you will be under my or one of my colleague's control; if you request descend or climb, you will do so only after you are cleared by me or one of my colleagues; if you are told to turn certain degrees or heading by me or one of my colleagues, you will comply; any request is suject to my or my colleagues authorisation; etc ... Get it?

Nightstop, here is a quote from P Perez (who has gone oddly quiet) that should explain what you heard!

Seems they value their "authority" over us more than safety.

[wayupthere]

Flying down to LEMG this evening and heard a Ryanair who was going north to Domingo rqst left to avoid wx which was undoubtedly present. Madrid ATC initially said there was no weather ahead and even when pressed by FR was most reluctant to allow any deviation. In fact I do not recall any hdg actually permitted by ATC. At least an ASR filed if it was me. I have never heard anything like this before and was quite astonished

This is a common thing around Spain lately, Many many ASRs have been filed, glad to see they've "helped"

[Flappo]

you will comply; any request is suject to my or my colleagues authorisation; etc ... Get it?


No. Actually your clearances are like wet paper if I take the decision that is unsafe .

[Prober]

I fail to understand the "requests" discussion. If there is a weather problem requiring a diversion, I tell the controller what I am doing and tell him I will keep him informed and will return to track when that is possible. I have never had a "discussion" about the matter, and have always complied if there is a safety issue.

[GAPSTER]

...as a working controller for over 30 years always within the London TMA I have had considerable sympathy with my colleagues in Spain and the way they have been disgracefully treated by the Spanish authorities.This is not to say I disregard the points made by the pilot fraternity as to the way things sometimes seem to be done in Spain,indeed in the days of jumpseat fam flights I have seen for myself the apparent favouritism shown towards national carriers.

The comment made by PPerez I find quite incredible however...any ATCO with a similar point of view would never make the grade here simply on grounds of attitude.It is a shame to say but to express views like this can only harm the cause of the Spanish ATCO and will lead to a significant loss of sympathy not only in the wider aviation world but also within ATC circles.

Fortunately I would trust that most of us out there will realise that this fellow must be in a minority almost of his own....I hope!

[kick the tires]

yes, PPerez has been strangely silent of late. Its nice isn't it?

[TBSC]

Seems that they agreed on money last week...

[p_perez]

Wow! didn´t expect some of you guys missed me so much. Sorry, some days at the coast to recharge batteries ...

To GAPSTER:

(...)

The comment made by PPerez I find quite incredible however...any ATCO with a similar point of view would never make the grade here simply on grounds of attitude.It is a shame to say but to express views like this can only harm the cause of the Spanish ATCO and will lead to a significant loss of sympathy not only in the wider aviation world but also within ATC circles.

Fortunately I would trust that most of us out there will realise that this fellow must be in a minority almost of his own....I hope!

Sorry you didn´t like my comment. You will agree with me that everything I said is nothing but our daily job: we actually tell the pilots what to do and when to do it, don´t we?

Of course, the way I expressed this idea was intentional, as it was the response to a comment made by Mr/Mrs Chesty Morgan in the following terms (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-19.html#post5835310):

Jesus Christ do you lot really think you deserve any respect after that performance.
(...)
The next time I receive an instruction from Spanish ATC I will have to think long and hard about following it as I can no longer be sure that it's coming from somebody who is concentrating on his job or just trying to make a point.

Sorry if I´m a little pissed off, but having to read some of the following comments doesn´t help much:

“Just wish some of there controller's could speak proper English that's understandable and actually speak into the microphone on the headset rather than talking into a bucket...” Whispering Giant (http://www.pprune.org/members/29004-whispering-giant)

"and in Madrid, I have witnessed some of the worst ATC in Europe, from some of the most highly paid.”
"When flying, turns away of 90 degrees to allow spanish aircraft over/undertake. So frustrating but sadly you grow to accept that this is the Spanish way."
“They are the worlds most skilled controllers - at diverting other aircraft off track so that Spanish aircraft can over/undertake!
If only they were fair and honourable in their activities; they would then be respected by all, rather than laughed at.”
"and in Madrid, I have witnessed some of the worst ATC in Europe, from some of the most highly paid."
"In Madrid you guys always put SO much effort into vectoring non spanish aircraft to allow spanish aircraft to jump the queue! if you used those skills with your general controlling, the flow rates would improve massively."
"For me and all my colleagues, the ATC in Madrid is a joke, a sad one at that.
No respect for you guys whatsoever." kick the tires (http://www.pprune.org/members/49580-kick-the-tires)

“Are Spanish ATC really among the best paid in Europe while being (one of) the worst on the European continent? What a waste of money, I'd say!” sabenaboy (http://www.pprune.org/members/38556-sabenaboy)

"10W you put a good case forward for why adherence to flight plans is important. However in this case I think it misses the point. Our Spanish colleagues are not doing this to fix the system. They are doing this because it supports their dispute with the Spanish government to protect the kind of things that are ironically refered to worldwide in industrial relations language as 'spanish practices'." lederhosen (http://www.pprune.org/members/183660-lederhosen)

"if the Germans and French and Swiss and even the Italians can get English down and use it why cant the Spanish controllers! there a joke."
“there a bunch of useless ****s”
"the bigger issue for me is THEY CANT SPEAK ENGLISH!"
"but they really really cant understand English."
"but I would trust my wallet to a Gypsy before I trust my life to air tragedy in spain! there a bunch of useless ****s" zerotohero (http://www.pprune.org/members/264786-zerotohero)

"The level of maturity of some ATCO's in the south of Europe is directly proportional to their english level." maybepilot (http://www.pprune.org/members/19341-maybepilot)

"Thought it was because of my callsign! Full sids and stars into Madrid with lights traffic. Was also denied a higher cruise level because we were filed at a lower level!! Totally unprofessional." TolTol (http://www.pprune.org/members/107742-toltol)

"It's a bunch of amateurs taking care of serious business." Fuel Dump (http://www.pprune.org/members/316519-fuel-dump)


As of your hability to judge my aptitude by just reading a comment out of its context, well I can only congratulate you for been so gifted.


Regarding the deal that my (for the moment ...) union USCA signed with my (for the moment ...) company AENA, it is supposed to be only a temporary truce to allow some peace at work, but the real target is to sign a new Collective Agreement before the end of the year. The 200.000€ salary (BEFORE TAXES!) went from "average" per controller (in the minister´s own words) to "maximum" for some controllers if they work 1670 hrs. a year plus 80 hrs. overtime (1750 hrs a year for 200.000€ at ACC´s). But me and most of my colleagues would be happy with much less quid, but more family life, and that´s why around 8% voted NO to the deal.

See you around ...


Saludos!

[Chesty Morgan]

we actually tell the pilots what to do and when to do it, don´t we?

Welcome back P P.

What you actually mean is you tell us what you'd like us to do, we then decide if it's safe to do so and then let you know that we are complying. If it's not safe then we aint doing it.

As far as your other comments go then I'd be getting the hint by now that there are many daily users of your "service" and they all appear to have a similar opinion of it's worth.

There's a not so subtle message in there somewhere!

[LayLoLay]

What you actually mean is you tell us what you'd like us to do, we then decide if it's safe to do so and then let you know that we are complying. If it's not safe then we aint doing it

You better have a very good reason for not complying with any ATC instruction inside controlled airspace.

ATC is not a service we provide to you pilots as individuals, it is a service we provide to AIR TRAFFIC in general to prevent collisions and promote a SAFE, ORDERLY and EFFICIENT flow.

Just because you sit on the pointy end does not mean you own the right to do as you wish. You only have control of the vehicle you are flying and you will do so under the rules established by the authorities who give you the permission to do so.

Take this example. Driving a car at a traffic light with traffic police. Clearly traffic police has the last say if he is controlling the junction. He tells you to stop at green light, you stop. He tells you to cross at red light you cross. If there are no cars around and he still tells you to stop at green, you will still stop. And finally; even if there are no cars around and the light is red, and he seems not to be there to control the junction to let you pass, you still wait for your green light. You do not boss him into taking control of your junction to let you pass. Same goes if he redirects you on other route away from your first intended, you can question why but don´t need to agree with the answer, you will still do as told unless he blatantly tells you to drive into a car or off a cliff. That is when you stop and question what the hell is he about. Until then you have to rely on his instructions still keeping an eye on things for as far as you can.

All people using the airspace, including the passengers and owners of the cargo and the owners of the planes you are flying are our clients, and our utmost duty is to them. You professional pilots, like us controllers, are just a mere tool to get things done in our part of the transport system. Not a sky god. You do your part of the job and let us do ours.

Also why the hell so many pilots act like as if they own the company? If you burn more fuel or you are delayed due to ATC instructions or weather report was wrong, well, it is not your fault, your duty is to report the reasons to your bosses and tell them to do something about it if they really care. If you filed one route or level, hoping you would get a direct or the real requested level anyhow and when you don´t, things go down the drain,that is your fault.

To be frank any complaint about ATC efficiency from the pilots land on deaf ears anyhow, you want to get things changed get your bosses on the move, they are the ones who could do anything about it.

[Mikehotel152]

I don't know about the rest of you but my recent experiences have been marginally better. Got some higher levels and directs last week. Still a tendency to ignore the first call, then come back after a short delay with a 'Station Calling?' with background noise from a Tapas bar. :uhoh:

That said, and in fairness, there are just as many aircrew who miss the initial call because they're snoozing. I know, I've been there, done that!

Heading off down to AGP this afternoon, so we'll see whether things are improving. Wish me luck! ;)



PS: P Perez: why have you posted a list of all the recent criticisms of Spanish ATC? Was it not depressing enough reading them the first time round? :confused:

[Whippersnapper]

All people using the airspace, including the passengers and owners of the cargo and the owners of the planes you are flying are our clients, and our utmost duty is to them. You professional pilots, like us controllers, are just a mere tool to get things done in our part of the transport system. Not a sky god. You do your part of the job and let us do ours.

Also why the hell so many pilots act like as if they own the company? If you burn more fuel or you are delayed due to ATC instructions or weather report was wrong, well, it is not your fault, your duty is to report the reasons to your bosses and tell them to do something about it if they really care. If you filed one route or level, hoping you would get a direct or the real requested level anyhow and when you don´t, things go down the drain,that is your fault.

To be frank any complaint about ATC efficiency from the pilots land on deaf ears anyhow, you want to get things changed get your bosses on the move, they are the ones who could do anything about it.

So, you think the pilots are just a tool by which you control the aircraft? Wrong attitude, and that's why your service is so bad. It is only the pilots who are legally responsible for the safe conduct of the flight and whose backsides are in it, so it's up to the pilots to decide what needs to be done to achieve that safety. If that means not accepting ATC instructions, even in controlled airspace, then so be it. We are not just maggots on a screen and often have a better understanding of what is going on locally than a controller sitting several hundred miles away, like CBs, turbulence or aircraft/crew related issues. Many ATC controllers seem to have no idea of the physics of an aircraft, expecting simultaneous descents and speed reductions on receipt of very late instructions that just simply can't be achieved. Your comment about the flight level/short cut issue goes on to prove you have no concept about fuel costs or the amount of extra fuel companies allow their crews to carry.

British ATC seem to be the best I have encountered, followed very closely by the Dutch, Scandinavians and Germans. None are perfect, but they all understand their role very well and gives us the best support they can, and consequently are excellent at their job. They manage good levels and short cuts despite far greater traffic density. The Spanish seem to see aircraft as a way of justifying their over-sized state salaries and a nuisance. You seem to see it all as some kind of game. I pity your work patterns - they are awful, perhaps unsafe, but so is your attitude.

[maybepilot]

Was descending into a mediterranean coastal airport in Spain yesterday when the ATC chica gave me a heading 20 degrees to the left, after a minute or so she gave me 20 additional degrees with such nervousness that I started looking around for traffic.
Of course I saw one guy climbing into us on our TCAS and actually even spotted him visually in the distance thanks to the good WX all over.
We got a TCAS traffic alert and I suspect the other guy got the same.

Not a single word of warning nor explanation from ATC who cleread us to descend through the other guy's altitude while he was climbing through ours on reciprocal courses.

Some minutes later APP got us under their guidance and vectored us for an ILS, they actually put us on an intercepting track that was about 120 degrees off the ILS final course and cleared us for the approach from that heading...I could not so believe what was happening it that I looked over the actual wind suspecting a major drift due to crosswinds but saw an easy westerly breeze at 12kts on my navigation display and our instruments were also working fine since I could see where we were.
There was no time to question a heading that would have had us intercepting the back course of an ILS in the wrong direction and decided to steer my aircraft using common sense and intercept my ILS from where it made more sense.

When it comes to Spain the common misconception of ATCO's telling pilots what to do and when couldn't be more wrong.
In Spain you've got to follow your basic instincts if you wanna survive until the next departure....

[LayLoLay]

So, you think the pilots are just a tool by which you control the aircraft?

No, I think you have comprehension problems in the english language or a troll.

I said;
You professional pilots, like us controllers, are just a mere tool to get things done in our part of the transport system.

i.e. YOU as a PROFESSIONAL pilot are just a mere tool TO GET THINGS DONE, LIKE US CONTROLLERS, in OUR PART OF the big old world wide transport system. You seem to be unable to grasp the fact that the world is much bigger and does not revolve around your huge ego.

I also said;

YOU do YOUR part of the job and let US do OURS.

I never said I wanted to remote fly your aircraft for you.


Wrong attitude, and that's why your service is so bad.

British ATC seem to be the best I have encountered, followed very closely by the Dutch, Scandinavians and Germans.

Funny that you think I'm a spanish controller in spain (was it the anonymous latin sounding LayLoLay name that fooled you into that?), well news flash to you, I am neither. I actually control in one of the air spaces you claim to be the best.

It is only the pilots who are legally responsible for the safe conduct of the flight and whose backsides are in it, so it's up to the pilots to decide what needs to be done to achieve that safety. If that means not accepting ATC instructions, even in controlled airspace, then so be it. We are not just maggots on a screen and often have a better understanding of what is going on locally than a controller sitting several hundred miles away, like CBs, turbulence or aircraft/crew related issues. Many ATC controllers seem to have no idea of the physics of an aircraft, expecting simultaneous descents and speed reductions on receipt of very late instructions that just simply can't be achieved. Your comment about the flight level/short cut issue goes on to prove you have no concept about fuel costs or the amount of extra fuel companies allow their crews to carry.


So many rights and wrongs there, couldn't decide where to begin. Whoever said you were maggots on a screen, having self esteem problems? not my job to fix.

CBs, your duty to clear away, as in the book, you have the right to deviate from the route and instructions, our job would be to coordinate, inform you of the danger/restricted/military areas or traffic you might be flying into and act accordingly.

Turbulence, if not severe and without declaring emergency, inside controlled airspace you wait till I tell you when you can vacate the level. Vacate level before that without proper excuse, you will get told off. Do that too often and the closest you will get to seeing a cockpit in flight will be through a photograph. You don't believe me, try it out..

If you cannot comply with an instruction as your aircraft cannot you tell us and we ammend. If you cannot comply with an instruction without any given reason when everyone else can then we doubt you.

I might be sitting hundred miles away but I can also see double or more than that on my radar screen, how far out can you see in your cockpit? I also know the intention as in flight plan of every single aircraft under my control, upto mid twenties in numbers at times. Intentions of how many of the aircraft do you know within your small area of perception be it via your TCAS screen or eyeball? How many times did I have pilots asking for higher with traffic right on top of them, or that will be converging within less than 10 mins.

Also if you think it is only the pilots who are legally responsible for the safe conducts of the flights, think again. There are few controllers put in prison and one even murdered by those who don´t seem to think so.

So get off your high horse and accept what you are. You don't make the rules, neither do we. You either play with the rules or drop out. We controllers are under NO LEGAL obligation to give you direct or a higher level than the one you have planned. We do it as a service NOT TO YOU AS A PILOT, but to your company and your clients. Any complaint from your side as a pilot to us will not get you far, you, AS WE, are nothing but a tool(a tool to the guys that pay you so you can make them money keeping their planes flying, not a tool to me to control your aircraft). You function as the bosses expect you to, you will continue getting paid. If my bosses ever tell me; no more directs or level above planned level, tough bananas to you. I will have to do as they tell me to. Best you can do is to convince your bosses to convince mine to give back the freedom to act as safe and efficient as I can inside the airspace responsibility of which was given to me.

Also for your info I am one of the controllers that will do all that he can within his powers to provide the best service possible. I question what's going on before jumping on a pilot's neck for not following clearences. I believe in communication with the pilots to keep them in the loop as far as the traffic load permits. Actually if my bosses ordered me to not to send directs or climb outside planned levels, I'd still stick my neck out and look for excuses or means to make it available.

I never declared what I think about working to rule or whether the spaniards are good controllers or deserve their salaries. I also haven't been pushed far enough as they supposedly have been.

[ESSP Flyer]

Hi all, here is a good example of when not to follow issued instructions!
No doubt most of you are already familiar with this incident.

On December 6, 1999, at about 8:35 p.m., United Airlines flight 1448, a Boeing 757, was involved in a runway incursion on runway 5 Right at Theodore Francis Green State Airport, near Providence, Rhode Island. At the time of the incident, it was dark and the reported visibility was one-quarter mile.

After United 1448 landed on runway 5 Right, the tower controller instructed the flight crew to proceed to the terminal using taxiways November and Tango, and report crossing runway 16. During their taxi in the fog, the flight crew became disoriented and turned onto taxiway Bravo by mistake. They then provided incorrect position reports to the tower controller. The airplane ended up at the intersection of Runway 16 and Runway 23 left. Note that Runways 23 Left and 5 Right are opposite ends of the same runway. Shortly afterward, a Federal Express aircraft taking off from runway 5 Right passed very close to United 1448. The subsequent conversation between the tower controller and United 1448 shows continued uncertainty about the aircraft's position. For example, there will be several references to Runway 23 right while the airplane is actually on 23 left.

Link to the clip, quite scary me think.....
YouTube - Runway Incursion Providence POV Simulation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM_OCV8KT1A&NR=1)

[fokker1000]

You blindly follow Spanish ATC instructions at your peril.
I have been put to 'the next Freq' stupidly hot and high and been told to report 6 mile final!
I've have been told to decend below MSA so many times.

Over a decade of operating into Spain and I'm still astonished at what they do, and don't do what they should... Pathetic.

Any area controller in the UK would be shocked at what they get very well paid to do, and do rather badly on occasion!

Does any one wonder why Sim drivers try to pop you into a mountain, I don't!!

Oh, and lets speak to locals in local so as to cause more confusion shall we, sounds like a great idea to me. NOT.

[Chesty Morgan]

Laylolay
You better have a very good reason for not complying with any ATC instruction inside controlled airspace.

Is this a good enough reason?!

If it's not safe then we aint doing it

Keep your eyes open old chap!

:ugh:

promote a SAFE, ORDERLY and EFFICIENT flow.

Can you tell me which part of the last 6 or so months of Spanish "work to rule" has promoted efficiency?

[LayLoLay]

C.Morgan,

Of course it is as you know it. But your attitude to me sounded to more than just unsafe clearences, hence my answer. Never follow any clearence blindly anywhere in the world, not just in spain. There is a difference between vigilence and rebellious know it allness.

And to those complaining about lack of safety in spain; how many has actually complained through the official channels and demanded follow up. It is not only the spanish CAA you can complain to if they fail to respond, you know that, right?

About work to rule in spain, doubt that was about improving efficiency. On the contrary if you take away the freedom to make certain decisions from the ops people to admins you will have negative effect on the efficiency. So if it was bad it just got worse, that, I believe was the point they were trying to make.

[cresslime]

anything else ?

Spanish ATCo.

[cresslime]

maybepilot (or not ) said:

"Of course I saw one guy climbing into us on our TCAS and actually even spotted him visually in the distance thanks to the good WX all over.
We got a TCAS traffic alert and I suspect the other guy got the same."

Do you really know how TCAs works ? If you receive a TA the other traffic ALSO. First lesson.

[MarcK]

Do you really know how TCAs works ? If you receive a TA the other traffic ALSO. First lesson.

Back to school for you. Incorrect.

[kick the tires]

LAYLOLAY- Funny that you think I'm a spanish controller in spain (was it the anonymous latin sounding LayLoLay name that fooled you into that?), well news flash to you, I am neither. I actually control in one of the air spaces you claim to be the best.

Sounds as if Laylo is PPerez in a new alias. After all, they both sprout the same bullsh1t.

After his rants I would be VERY surprised if he wasnt based in MAD! He certainly doesnt have the attitude we've all grown to admire from the nations listed by Whippersnapper

British ATC seem to be the best I have encountered, followed very closely by the Dutch, Scandinavians and Germans.


Oh yes, I wonder how long it took perez to cut and paste that long list of his? Still dont know why he did it!

[Mikehotel152]

It's been said before but it's worth reiterating: surely this is not an issue of the technical or legal definitions of how ATC works, who is responsible for what, or how TCAS works; it is a simple issue of attitude to the job and professionalism.

Hiding behind staid and mind-numbing issues such as CTOT and cruise levels on a FPL shows an inflexible and unhelpful attitude to the job. I don't give a damn who is there to serve whom! I am friendly and helpful to my fellow crew, dispatchers, the pax and ATC because I want to be friendly and helpful. Offering or agreeing to requests for higher levels or shortcuts, even if it gives you a little extra work to do demonstrates flexibility, helpfulness and professionalism.

The point completely missed by all the defenders of Spanish ATC is that almost every other national ATC service manages to employ people, and operate their skies, with a better attitude to the job. Flying through most north European airspace you are usually struck by the professional and helpful attitude of the controllers. It's almost as though they enjoy their jobs! Not so in Spain, where, if you can hear them at all through the poor equipment and linguistics, you always feel like you're intruding on their private time.

As an aside: Cleared take off at a certain Spanish airport yesterday and 2 large happy-looking birds started to walk slowly across the runway about 100ft ahead of us. Upon notifying Tower that we would have to wait a few seconds for them to cross before rolling, we were met with an incredulous expression of dismay and annoyance from ATC who felt it jolly rude of us to delay for safety reasons, especially as there was traffic at 10 miles...:ugh:

[D O Guerrero]

Amusing incident a couple of days back... Spanish controller needs someone to climb to FL400, presumably to make his life easier. How we chuckled as almost every request was met with "unable". One guy even said "no we're filed at FL360, so can't climb". We were genuinely too heavy to climb, but it was nice to see the boot on the other foot for once. Point made I think.

[p_perez]

For D O Guerrero:

(...) Spanish controller needs someone to climb to FL400, presumably to make his life easier. (...)

Probably what my colleague was trying to do is getting a better level for another pilot who otherwise would have to cruise at a very low level. This past weekend was one of the busiest of all year in Spanish airspace, and we have had a hard time trying to get reasonable FL´s for everyone. If you get someone to climb from FL360/FL380 to FL400, then you can clear a departure to that vacated level, instead of leaving him at FL300/FL320.

Is this too complicated, Guerrero? Am I going too fast? Let me know and I´ll try to get myself clear for you ...


Point made I think.

Some people shouldn´t be paid to think ...


Saludos!

[Chesty Morgan]

Probably what my colleague was trying to do is getting a better level for an Iberia pilot who otherwise would have to cruise at a very low level. This past weekend was one of the busiest of all year in Spanish airspace, and we have had a hard time trying to get reasonable FL´s for everyone. If you get someone to climb from FL360/FL380 to FL400, then you can clear a departure to that vacated level, instead of leaving him at FL300/FL320.

So now you're being proactive and trying to help us are you? You're not working to rule anymore?

My, my what a perfect 180.

[p_perez]

Mr/Mrs Chesty:

you are so absolutely wrong, that it is amazing how blind and biased you are not realizing it.

In the future, try redacting your own comments instead of modifying mine. If you are that limited, not!

Y a propósito, ¿qué tal un comentario "constructivo" por tu parte para variar? Espero que entiendas el concepto, suele ser bastante usado por personas razonables ...

Saludos!

[Chesty Morgan]

Perez, how can a question be wrong? Unless I'm not asking the questions tha you want to answer. In the interests of understanding do you want to answer them this time round?

[1985]

Just thought you should know that bits of paper with reminders from eurocontrol about only giving filed levels and no directs have started appearing in the LACC ops room. Watch this space.

That said i will check to see if someone is slot busting by requesting a higher level. Some make it easy to catch some don't. ie filed at FL230 and wanting FL370 is obvious, filed at FL330 and wanting FL370 less so. A quick call to flow in the middle of the room sorts it out in two mins tops.

But you can overload another sector down the route by both requesting higher and lower levels than filed. But you can't make an aircraft fly higher if its too heavy and noone seems to get their knickers in a twist over that.

At the end of the day if its a bit busier than normal then suck it up. We are paid to do a job, do it, bitch and moan after, take your break and then go home. The stress always goes after you unplug.

[TBSC]

cresslime, p_perez

Would you mind updating us about the details of the agreement with your government, pls? We got detailed descriptions about your sufferings earlier but lately you went quiet (other than posts related to the childish "who has more power" contest).

[LayLoLay]

Calypso,

As a commander I also have the legal dispensation to deviate from any rules if in my judgement that deviation is necessary.

And your judgement to deviate from the rules shall be reasonable or you WILL lose your license and may even be imprisoned depending on the problems you have caused.

I am my company and if I complain it is on behalf of my company and if I demand the service we pay for is on behalf of my company.

Depends how you complain about it, whining on a frequency about a direct or a level you cannot be given will get you told off and probably even reported. Coming on these forums to whine without any constructive critism or trying to understand the situation instead of trolling is not helping anybody.

As I asked on a previous post, if you feel unsafe in spanish skies if you feel the airspace is inefficient, what have you done about it apart from whining here?

It is not up to pilots to decide the efficiency or the quality of the controllers, it is up to the authorities that employ us and let us keep our licences. If you see me do something not acceptable the best you can do is to report me. It is up to the authorities to decide on the outcome, not you.

You might think your word means much, but on your own, I am sorry it does not. You want things changed you will have to move your bosses to complain. Seriously, how far you think your complaints on the frequency go? Get it on paper, then push your company to do the follow up.

A pilot whining is just a nuisance to the controller sitting at the position. Make your company send complaint letters or even not so happy representatives to the service provider, you might get something done.

Heck, how far can you change things within your own company about rules and here you are expecting to change things in another company you have no direct contact with?

The fact is I represent my company while in command of one of our aircraft so as far as anyone is concerned what I say is on behalf of my airline as I have been given the authority to represent them

And how far does that authority go? Did they give you the authority to take on a national service provider, syndicates and governments making decisions you cannot even seem to grasp in their totality as well? If so, then you are one valued fancy pilot my friend.

The authority given to the PIC by the ANO is not given to the driver of a car, equally the law does do not give controllers the powers given to the police so your analogy falls somewhat short of the facts.

Not so sure, as a bus/truck driver the rules are pretty strict, as a car driver I also am still responsible of the damage I can cause with my car, maybe similar to PPL? I can also deviate from the rules of the road as long as I can give a good reason. The only difference are the procedures and size of stuff. So, could you please explain me in what way is the authority given to a PIC differs to one given to a bus driver or a truck driver? You might be in control of a much more complicated and risky vehicle but as far as authority goes in bending the rules, not so sure.

And about controllers and the police, we do not have the authority the police does, but we do function as a traffic police within their role of directing traffic. Not their function for enforcing the law. I thought it would be clear enough within the context. If you tell me you have problem with controllers controlling the aircraft within controlled airspace without your approval and not have ego problems, well OK.....


You can play all sort of mind games if you wish that I am nothing but a worker bee but you are wrong

Nice one, you are not a worker bee, quite right about that. A worker bee cannot decide where her base is but sure decides which route to take and which flower to take her nectar from. Let´s see your choices when you fly the plane... Do you decide which airport will be your departure and main destination? Do you decide which airplane to fly? Your nectar would be the money making cargo or passengers; so, you do have the right to not accept a passenger onboard within good reason, but do you get to choose which passengers to sell the tickets to? Do you actually decide which route to fly or is it some other people who decide and put it on your FMS for you?

So do you actually have as much authority as a worker bee does within your company?

Don't think it is much different with us controllers. We still probably have more manouvering space than you pilots do, but the box is getting smaller and smaller and those that are feeling the change too quick are trying to fight the only way they know.

I am not trying to play mind games with you, just telling things as I see them. This is not the golden 70s airline industry, neither the controllers nor the pilots have the high standing they used to. More and more we are turning into simple tools, the only reason we are still behind our machines is because the machines are not good enough on their own and we cannot trust them with our lives yet, and believe you me, our bosses are trying very hard to get us off them machines. Sad thing is we are losing the mutual respect even faster.

[10W]

:bored:This thread is now like an aircraft in a holding pattern ... going round and round in circles and getting nowhere fast.

Lots of pontificating and posturing from all sides, but no substance anymore.

Pilots, if you think it's unsafe, then file the reports. In some cases though, don't be surprised if your blame of unsafe ATC actually turns out to be a flight deck problem somewhere along the line ;) The authorities have access to ALL the data during the investigation.

Spanish ATC, if you can provide a better service, within the legal limits set to you, then make the extra effort. It is not difficult to do a little bit extra and make the customers a bit happier.


Roll on the September Eurocontrol compliance days .... I suspect the whining will not just be from the jets on the aircraft :bored: :} Maybe it will provide a catalyst for Eurocontrol to get smarter though, and improve the flexibility of the overall system.

[LayLoLay]

Pullup,

I for one don't see any of us as gods, neither the pilots nor the controllers, please read my posts carefully. In order to efficiently control my airspace I cannot let any pilot boss me around for directs or levels that are simply not available. I know the authority given to me to control the airspace, I also respect the right and duty of any pilot to question my clearences when they deem them unsafe. I have more authority in deciding what to do in my airspace than any single pilot does as long as I am keeping a safe environment(weather, special occurences and terrain permitting, then the authority belongs to you pilots). Efficiency is second to that. Efficiency will depend on how on top of my game I am feeling at that moment, safe first, efficient second.

So, if you think I sound like one that considers himself a lord simply because I have the authority and the duty to decide who to turn, descend/climb, send direct or not and whenever I feel is available and safe, I am sorry, but that is my job description. If I screw up in my job you have all the right to act accordingly, but until then you have to follow my game. Right or wrong?

On the other hand, I agree there are many controllers try to boss pilots on the frequency and try to blame the pilots for their shortcomings. I sure hope not to be one as I always try to make available the pilots request asap and try keep them in the picture as far as possible. Only had one complaint so far about a level given, at the end of which both the authorities and the airliner company decided I was right(another proof that what you think you see is not a quarter of the real situation), so I couldn't be doing so bad or the way people complain does not work.

Side note AGAIN, I control in N.Europe not spain. If the controller quality is unsafe in spain then heck do something about it, not just whine. I've already said that over and over. The complaints about the efficiency and the way they are put forward is what I am against.

[Avman]

Maybe it will provide a catalyst for Eurocontrol to get smarter

Fell off my chair laughing. Not a hope. Eurocontrol is getting worse every day. Too many people at the top who know absolutely nothing about how ATC really works and don't know the meaning of flexibility unless it suits them and them only. You think Spanish airspace is bad; just wait and see.

[dogsbreath]

I am sick of being sent 25 miles downwind at Malaga to make room for 2 spanish Turboprops to land before me on 32. I am sick of going round when Spanish aircraft are lined up when I am at half a mile on finals. I am sick of being held at holding points whilst Spanish aircraft are sent for departure before me. Lastly I am so sick of losing slots as Spanish aircraft are given take off before me. I have filed an MOR to hi-light the situation to out CAA. Hopefully they will get a grip at a Euro level. Spanish ATC are dreadful, almost as bad as the Greeks used to be.

[Cernicalo]

Hello Dogsbreath,

1. Maybe you are talking about runway 31 in Malaga, not the 32.

2. I spend a lot of time in Malaga, believe me, and usually you will be number two or three making a "long downwind" because is MUCH more easy and logical to adjust you the the Melilla turboprop that comes direct to final. You have to turn 180º to intercept the LLZ. The Melilla Turboprop (70% of the turboprop traffics down here in AGP) also makes much better speed than you on long-medium-short final. Everybody wants to be number one, but this is not possible, somebody has to me #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9 and sometimes, number 10. This is the decision of the controller, not yours.

3. 25 miles downwind?. Then you should be quite near from Ubedo, the IAF for RWY 31. Do you usually complain to make the routes that you filled and start the procedures were you should?. Ok. two traffics on final, one 7 miles out the other one, 14NM out, so you have to be 7NM behind, this is, 21... So we got the figures! 7 NM betwen traffics is what we need, becuase 7 miles usually comes to 5NM, and this is the minimun safe departure distance you need when you depart from the one runway'd AGP, isn't it?

4. Believe me, not a single controller will line up anybody with a traffic half a mile on final. 5 miles, maybe, ¿but 0,5? :=

I am so sick of reading the same nonsenses over and over... Spanish atc gives priority to spanish companies, we don't speak proper English, we are bad controllers, we earn looooooooots of money, we work maybe 2 hours a day. I think Fomento Minister Mr. Pepiño is here present as a Multinick member. :ugh: The same that makes some AGP controllers to earn last month 900€ :sad:. Consider it part of the mobbing procedure. Oh, yes, you will say we deserve this... or less.:zzz:


Hello Cmon-pullup,

Due to your comentaries:

"Your (ATC's) excuses that you can't give any directs or level changes "due workload" serves only one purpose: It gives a hell of a lot more pollution to our planet and it just pisses people off. And don't tell me you are overloaded when there are 2 aircrafts in your sector."


Come on, fall down the tree. Still thinking giving no directs makes "a lot more pollution to out planet"?. The greener plane is the plane that doesn't fly, not the one that makes 2000 NM instead of 2015NM. For my planet, and for my children, and for yours maybe, would be much better to have reasonable prices for flying, should be forbidden fly for 1€. And spend weekends in your hometown, and fly once a year on hollidays, and not working in UK and days off and weekends on a Spanish Costa... Come on! :=


About the directs, ok, you fly from Malaga at 06:00Z to Amsterdam. You depart alone, the controller take you out before EOBT, or maybe CTOT -7, The approach controller gives you a direct because you are the number one and only in the whole airspace, but... 1.5 hours later, near your destination airport, a controller have 20% more traffic than he should... one is you, because the spanish air traffic controller didn't the right job, although both were thinking was good for you... Then you have a near miss in that sector, a RA, and the AGP controller has a beautiful report blaming him for not complying with the slots and for giving directs that "may overload following sectors", and because nowadays are hard times, he could be fired or worst, could be finned with the "Spanish Air Safety Law" that could be up to 250000€ :eek:. This is maybe what you heard. Not to overload following sectors, not that "my sector is overload with just one traffic".

I was hoping more support from you guys, fellow pilots, in theese incredible hard days for us. But always count I will give the best service I can when you come to Costa del Sol as my "dear lovely and valuable customers". :ok:

Cernicalo.

[Mikehotel152]

Cernicalo, Perez etc.

Do you honestly think that Spanish ATC is good? I mean, seriously?

With so many people making comments and a whole thread dedicated to criticism of the woeful service it provides, surely there must be some truth in the allegations, explicit and implied, on this website?

I have yet to meet a pilot who doesn't hold a poor view of Spanish ATC. I have no bone to pick. I'm not anti-Spanish. But I fly across Europe and find the service from Spanish ATC the most unsettling, scary and unprofessional.

[Airbrake]

I flew a late night AGP a few nights ago. Departed from AGP well after midnight with no departures for at at least 10 mins prior to us. We still flew 20 miles out to follow the arc on the way to Belen.

Quiet as a church yard and the controller had the nerve to say no directs available due to "Flight Safety." Gave us a good laugh at least.

We zig zagged our way through Spanish air space in the early hours then swapped to the French who said "Direct Dikro." Commonsense at last.

The AGP approach controller gets my nomination for the Muppet prize this week.

[TBSC]

About the directs, ok, you fly from Malaga at 06:00Z to Amsterdam. You depart alone, the controller take you out before EOBT, or maybe CTOT -7, The approach controller gives you a direct because you are the number one and only in the whole airspace, but... 1.5 hours later, near your destination airport, a controller have 20% more traffic than he should... one is you, because the spanish air traffic controller didn't the right job, although both were thinking was good for you... Then you have a near miss in that sector, a RA, and the AGP controller has a beautiful report blaming him for not complying with the slots and for giving directs that "may overload following sectors", and because nowadays are hard times, he could be fired or worst, could be finned with the "Spanish Air Safety Law" that could be up to 250000€ http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif. This is maybe what you heard. Not to overload following sectors, not that "my sector is overload with just one traffic".

Bravo Sierra.

If that destination airport really happens to be AMS then all these things can only happen in your dreams... Worth having a cockpit ride to AMS and watch how your colleagues are doing their job at that end.

Btw: your boss does not care about dozens of ASRs filed about Spanish ATC itself, what he'd care about an "overloaded sector" 1000 kms away. The wording is just right: "could be fired", "could be fined" etc. Yeah, never happened and never will.

[Daermon ATC]

@ Dogsbreath: I think Cernicalo just gave a masterpiece of an answer. In any case, I would like to put it in more general terms. Assuming you arrive at an airport at rush hour you know there will be other acft... if one or several of them are turboprops, how exactly do you want to deal with them?

If we disregard the "option" of holding them for two hours untill everything has died down we will have to squeeze that turboprop somewhere. Unfortunately the jet that is next is going to have a small detour, but I see no way to avoid it.

And as a small coincidence, those turboprops will be most likely local carriers... I don't expect Air China, Aeroflot or American Airlines to have a route to Spain with turboprops, do you? :ugh:

@ Spanish ATC: There is a sobering fact here and that is the absence of any threads about "dreadful dutch/german controlling". Service provided in Spain is considered substandard by our customers... this may just be a perception rather than a fact, but it is indeed there. "Si el río suena, agua lleva."

@ most answering LayLoLay: LayLoLay has provided several very insightful posts, making detailed explanations from ATC perspective. My thanks for that. He/she has not explicitly taken a stand for or against spanish ATC, which is this thread's subject but rather has offered his opinion in a tempered an educated manner.

However, since he has not joined the campaign demonizing spanish ATC, he has been immediately accused of being a spaniard against his/her own claims.

Honestly... don't you think it is a disgraceful discrimination if anybody who provides anything but the strongest condemnation of spanish ATC is therefore suspect of being one himself?

[Cernicalo]

Hello All,

No, the ATC service in Spain is not bad. No, it is worst. No, wait, is the worst. No wait, It is the worst in Europe. No, I could say more and louder, even clearer, It is the WORST IN THE PLANET... even of the UNIVERSE. Calypso & Cia. Are you now satisfied? :ugh:

For TBSC:

The law is the law. And it is there to be applied. So if it is written, you have to consider it. And remember, maybe this is one of the jobs with more responsability, in Spain, in UK or Nigeria. I have to consider it. Pilots (if you are a good pilot), will consider always one engine failure. But could be very easy to think... Ok, it's quite rare a one engine failure, so today, with my powerful A321, 42 degrees, come on, let's depart from AGP Maximum Take of weight, directly into the mountains, not very nice visibility, but... no problem at all!... Oh f*cks! a bird strike! :}

Here you have the Spanish law:

Ley de seguridad aérea - Disposiciones fundamentales - Legislación aérea - Normativa - Información general - Ministerio de Fomento (http://www.seguridadaerea.es/AESA/LANG_CASTELLANO/_INFORMACION/NORMATIVA/LEGISLACION/DISPOSICIONES_FUNDAMENTALES/LEY_SEGURIDAD_AEREA/default.htm)

CAPÍTULO II
De las sanciones y otras medidas
Artículo 55. Sanciones.
1. Las infracciones establecidas en el capítulo I de
este título serán sancionadas del modo siguiente:
a) Las infracciones leves con apercibimiento o multa
de 60 hasta 45.000 euros.
b) Las infracciones graves con multa de 45.001 a
90.000 euros.
c) Las infracciones muy graves con multa de 90.001
a 225.000 euros. :D

Believe me, I have met a colleague with 90000€ penalty over the shoulders, I still doesn't know if has been totally overseen or not. It's quite relaxing to go to work and with 90000€ penalty over your head give vectors to shortcut and directs on the SIDs.


And Mr. O'Leary thinks the same than this forum... Come one, O'Leary, which one is your Nick?. At least this guys discafies just himself:


MADRID, 1 Sep. (EUROPA PRESS) -

El presidente de Ryanair, Michael O'Leary, ha criticado a los
controladores aéreos de Aeropuertos Españoles y Navegación Aérea
(AENA) por ser "poco eficientes" y "demasiado caros", ya que "se
sientan sobre sus gordos culos sin hacer nada cuando deberían estar
trabajando" mientras "reciben enormes e injustificadas sumas de dinero
por prestar un servicio que otros podrían proporcionar a la mitad de
precio".


O'Leary critica a los controladores aéreos y pide la libre competencia en la prestación del servicio. europapress.es (http://www.europapress.es/economia/noticia-economia-empresas-oleary-critica-controladores-aereos-pide-libre-competencia-prestacion-servicio-20100901151919.html)

Somebody can translate it with google, at your discretion. I will not make the dirty job for this Air-Clown. I would suggest a training course "How to continue making friends all over the world".

This guy call me "Fat-Bottomed", in this thread somebody some post ago wrote that in AGP ATIS should be "stupid controllers on the job training monitored", and a "bunch of chimps" has been another beautiful words that Spanish ATC receive... Come on, you could be more creative.... Airbrake, Please consider me as well for the "Muppet prize" of this week. :cool:

Mikehotel152: I haven't said that Spanish ATC is good. I mean, seriously. It is this what you wanted to read?

Another thing: The English level of Spanish, never will be the same than other North-European countries. English speakers speaks perfect English, and Dutch, Germans, Scandinavian, Finlands, etc.. will be always better speakers than Spanish, Latin-American, French (*), Italian, etc... This is just because of language similitudes, sorry guys... it's amazing how a Romanians speaks Spanish in just 3 MONTHS, sometimes is so difficult to realize they are nor Spanish... Italian always will sound like italians (nice melody you have guys!), but you will understand if you are spanish perfectly. What about the difficulties of English, or German or Dutch?. Maybe all ATC all aver the world should be English. The Spanish, we are good as builders, bartenders or waiters. Forever and ever.

(*) As far as I know, The French controllers have English training with English native speakers all over their career. No, sorry, in Spain, we haven't. A French controller can confirm that please? And sorry for you, fellow French controllers, you will be the next... So you know what it is going on with us in Spain. "Single European Sky", they call it.

An remember: Spanish is ICAO... The same than English, Russian, French, Arabic and Chinese. Anyway, always I have one English speaker traffic, and I consider He needs to know what it is going one, becuase affects (sometimes minimum affects) I will speak to all in English. I have tried to speak with ALL in English, the result is not so good, some local pilots have problems with readbacks and with General Aviation the results could be catastrophic... I prefer speak twice Spanish/English and Everybody will be informed in both languages!

Regards,

Cernicalo.

[Dusthog]

I flew with an old and experienced Spanish captain the other day.
He said it used to feel good to cross the Pyrenees southbound, flying back to his own country - mi casa.
The Spanish ATC was better before. Now he says it´s the opposite. He´s glad to cross the Pyrenees going north, away from Spain.



For those Spanish controllers spending time on this forum, at least you have some level of interest in your job. Maybe there is hope.


Regards

[Greenpilots]

@Cernicalo: You mentioned a serious problem. Spanish pilots not being proficient in English! If you speak English only half of the time, you will certainly be less likely to reach an efficient level of using the language. And it is obvious that many Spanish pilots are not that good in English and that applies to big and small airlines.
It is time that everyone learns the language and uses it!

[PA-28-180]

"(*) As far as I know, The French controllers have English training with English native speakers all over their career. No, sorry, in Spain, we haven't."

Cernicalo (and others), please PM me regarding this.

[Daermon ATC]

@ Calypso: With "perception of bad service" I was refering to issues as stated earlier by Dogsbreath where a bad service is percieved by the pilot when under closer scrutiny it was something unavoidable.

I'm not refusing to acknowledge that there is a considerable room for improvement in spanish ATC, I'm just stating that regadless of whether there is a REAL issue (which I believe there is), just the PERCEPTION of a bad service should be enough to make some changes.



As you all know, since February the conditions have gone down the drain for spanish controllers with inevitable repercussions on the service provided. It is simply not realistic to expect the same level of quality when the one providing it is exhausted and close to emotional breakdown while also in shear fear for his/her job.

I want to hammer down this last point: you do not want to provide any excuses for your company to fire you, so if they say planes have to fly standard routes, they will. If they say strict slot adherence, so be it. For you it's a delay for the spanish ATC it may be their job... However, I am sure that there is also a certain single-minded vindicationism on that attitude since it is obvious that this kind of work will hurt the company in the long run. :ugh:

You may say it would be best for those so affected to request medical assistance or simply quit the job. You may know about the medical leaves in august, and you may have also heard that over 10% of current ATC staff has requested contract extinction.

In any case, even before draconian measures were imposed on spanish ATC the service provided had a thourughly bad reputation. :( Several issues mentioned in this thread should be addressed to correct that, but some are simply not feasible in a reasonable timeframe (for example, as Cericalo mentioned, the need to use spanish to increase security as most spaniards are not sufficiently fluent in english... and this is more related to pilots than to ATC)

[budweser]

"(*) As far as I know, The French controllers have English training with English native speakers all over their career. "

That's true

[ATC Watcher]

My oh my ! this thread is become an attack-defense between Spanish controllers and what appears to be some UK pilots . I say “ appears to be " : as since this forum is anonymous, we have no guarantee that those “ remarks against Spanish ATC” are truly coming from ATPL s of just Microsoft FS users. And if indeed they are coming from ATPL holders , perhaps, who knows, they all come from the same airline with an attitude problem.
I must say , I know quite a lot of UK ATPLs and they most are far too educated and polite to use some of the language posted here. So I have my doubts. While following this thread episodically , I kept wondering how the community would feel if we controllers opened a thread on the “professional behaviors” of Airline X ?
After all we are surely they best to judge, since we control all the airlines, and there is a huge difference between the best ( in our eyes) and a few others. You’ll be surprised.

After all some of you seem to be able to “ judge” if ATC is “ good ‘ or “ bad” based on the number of direct routings and RFLs if gets ? Maybe we controllers should judge if an airline is “ good “ or “ bad” based on similarly futile criteria.

Back to the title : Spanish ATC : What do you want to achieve ? get the Spanish controllers really P..ed off ? Their management has already done this for them. So do you think adding to the pot will improve the situation in the future ?

Understanding one another is one of the strong points of PPruNe . Having a go at each each other will get us nowhere , with the best contributors leaving this thread for another with a more professional attitude/debate..
I personally would kindly invite everyone who wants to understand how ATC works and what it is there for , to reflect on a few basics :

1) ATC is there because there are aircraft and pilots , not the other way around, and controllers should never forget the notion of “service “ . We are here primarily to help and facilitate.

2) Commercial Air crews should remember that they are not alone in the sky and that there are other airspace users such as general aviation, Military and other airlines, that need equally to be served, and other constraints , like airspace avoidance to be taken into account in “refusing “ you your wishes. Flow management is a latter addition to restrict your perceived “ freedom “.

3) Finally , to make an airline aircraft fly today , it need the cooperation and good will from a hundred of staff. Pilots are only one tiny part of it, and respecting the others down the line that allow you to fly would help both punctuality and safety. Showing arrogance and disrespect to one group will bite you back one day.

That reminds me of an old anecdote in the old days of US Air. When a Captain asked the dispatch in Pittsburg if that was HIS aircraft there , a particular Ops lady used to reply : “sorry Sir, that one belongs to US Air….” Made it all around the Internet now as a joke , but she was basically right: no-one own anything, it’s all part of a big effort by everyone to make you fly. A pilot does not owns an airplane , but my fellow controllers, a controller does not owns an airspace as well.

[BrATCO]

Cernicalo,(*) As far as I know, The French controllers have English training with English native speakers all over their career. No, sorry, in Spain, we haven't. A French controller can confirm that please?

I'd like to confirm but, being French, I never understand my English trainers:). Not more when they try to explain me where they are from... (they speak English !) :eek:

And sorry for you, fellow French controllers, you will be the next... So you know what it is going on with us in Spain.
We will not be the next... we ARE next.
In your 6 o'clock, we can feel your wake turbulence !:ouch:

[lederhosen]

Just to be clear here, not all of those contributing are UK ATPLs, quite a lot of criticism has come from Germany. I would however say that over the last couple of weeks I have noticed an improvement in Palma. Maybe I am imagining things or just got lucky, but I hope it stays this way.

[jlms]

Hi there.

This thread appears to be going nowhere as far as I'm concerned. Yes, there is plenty of room for improvement and no, we are not all like most of you want to depict us. Most of my colleagues are very professional ATCO's and a lot of them (fewer nowadays) used to go to any lengths in order to give the best possible service.

I already gave a brief summary of the situation we are going through (page 22 - http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-22.html) and things have not improved since. The second week of August we came to a temporary agreement with our ANSP (to allow the collective bargaining of long T&C's to be held throughout the rest of the year) and since then they have already failed to comply with their obligations.

I'll check this thread every so often just in case I can be of any help to anyone with a particular request or to shed some light on a given issue. However, as long as the general bashing and moaning continues I don't feel like really coming back too often.

Oh, one last thing. We are still waiting to receive a single visit of any one of you when off duty and touring the city on holidays!! Unfortunately our ANSP has now restricted most visits, including the press by the way, and it is very difficult to obtain an authorization. We could give it a try anyway.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

May as well add my tuppence worth, I suppose.

Spanish ATC:

1. Quite often make zero response when called.
2. Make more mistakes than non-Spanish. For example recently we found ourselves very close to an a/c in front of us who had stopped his descent for some reason. The ATCO had not noticed.
3. They have secondrate English and the R/T discipline in Spain is poor. Lots of crossed tx and jabbering away for long periods in Spanish.

I think the ATC there is the worst I have experienced.

[jlms]

Thank you BarbiesBoyfriend, next one please!

[MPH]

to 10W and co. If, it is controler discretion how come that discrection is, so poor. If, the idea about the -5 +10 on your CTOT is to, ajust for sequence or flow then, use it!!! If, 4 A/C taxi-out and a 5th is ready at the same time what happens then. From what I have seen that flight loses it´s CTOT! So, one minute after the 15mins taxi time in (as, an example) PMI (LEPA) means the A/C cannot push-back and start? You might be doing your job at controling but, discretion wise, hmmm!!! To get 4 A/C airborne and leaving a 2 min. seperation (heavies) you whould need in practice 8mins plus +/- 50secs for each T/O. For 5,6 or 7 imagine. So, where does the logic come into play, when you, want to be strict and let planes take of at the exact CTOT. The whole idea about the -5 +10min. is to ajust these problems...use that discretion!!!!:ooh:

[Daermon ATC]

MPH: I would point out that the specific incidence about CTOTs is only recent and may be only caused due to strict adherence to rules.

In an efficient and relaxed work atmosphere, you understand your function as a tool to make a system work. Therefore you can use a certain flexibility in order to help the process as a whole.

However, if you are scared of your company which is only waiting for any excuse to start disciplinary actions against you, you will follow instructions to the letter.

Most will draw a line when it comes to company orders which conflict with security (and there have been quite a few of them) but efficiency and customer satisfaction is currently at the very bottom of the priority list. Survival first, sorry. :(

(By the way, I would not rule out that a part of the bad job is directly intended to cause you delays. If your companies start to have losses then the complains will eventually land on our minister's desk (like those from hotel managers three weeks ago when spanish atc were considering a strike). You can not negotiate unless both sides have something to loose if they don't)

[MPH]

Daermon ATC: I understand the situation! What I can not see is, how can you or a Spanish ATC supervisors punish an individual for using discrection in controling a sequence or flow situation. Putting pressure on airlines does not take away your duty to facilitate air traffic and ajust accordingly? We are talking about economy,schedul´s, co2 emissions, crew fatigue, etc.

[charlies angel]

Topslide6.....
Since Aug 2009 Spanish AIP has classified B757 and 737-800/900 as HEAVY when being followed by another aircraft and MEDIUM when they follow another aircraft.
So 2 minutes on take off and 5 miles on landing is appropriate in Spanish airspace in your lower series 737
But you probably knew that really didn't you:uhoh:

[eastern wiseguy]

Topslide

Perhaps the Spanish have filed a difference with ICAO as in THIS example from the UK
State Variations to ICAO Wake Turbulence Category

States may elect to operate variations to the ICAO scheme if they wish. One example of this is the UK where the main differences are the re-definition of the lower weight end of the ICAO ‘MEDIUM’ category:
An extra category called ‘SMALL’ is defined as aircraft types with an MTOM (maximum take-off mass) of between 17000 kg and 40000 kg
The ‘LIGHT’ Category defined in the ICAO scheme is extended to cover aircraft types with an MTOM of up to 17000 kg

In addition an ‘UPPER MEDIUM’ aircraft type category is defined from within the ICAO ‘MEDIUM’ category (only) for approaches made at EGLL EGKK EGSS and EGCC.

[Cernicalo]

Hello Topslide6,

You must remember, of course, that in Spain I regularly get told (and I quote), "traffic in front is a 737-800 heavy, caution wake turbulence" when flying a different series version of the same aeroplane.

I suspect someone in Spain needs to have a word with ICAO over their wake turbulence catagorisation criteria.

In Spain, in the flight strips appears 737-800H. We have been instructed to consider 737-800 as heavy, so don't blame the controllers. I don't know who is responsible, but We have to follow the RCA and if is heavy, is heavy. It is not due to the weight, is due to the wake turbulence, we have been told have a very similar wing to the 757.

And something maybe you forget. 737-800 (and 757 as well) is medium traffic when follows another, but is heavy when has somebody behind.

737-800H departs, and a second 737-800H departs 2 minutes later due to wake turbulence.

[shock-absorber1]

Does CRM concepts apply to relations between flight crew and air traffic controller too?

[salsaboy]

Does CRM concepts apply to relations between flight crew and air traffic controller too?

NATS have been working on 'MCRM' concepts for a number of years. I can't speak for other countries.

[Jimmy Hoffa Rocks]

I realize that has been posted earlier but..

Does anyone have more info on this AENA directive not to provide directs ?:ugh:

ATC Still not giving firects costing the airlines 1000´s of kgs of fuel.

Does AENA not care at all about the extra tons of carbon they through their own inompetence are putting needlessly into the environment ?:ugh:
What about the environment ?

AENA has definitely got to wake up and grow up.

In Barcelona constant training underway.
Still people arriving with sub standard level of English.
Something worng with the selection process of Controllers in Spain.
They writre Lots of exams to be a controller.
But a number lack that ability to make quick calculations and being sharp which is different from the one who exceeds in written Exams on air law.

[cumulustratus]

An remember: Spanish is ICAO... The same than English, Russian, French, Arabic and Chinese. Anyway, always I have one English speaker traffic, and I consider He needs to know what it is going one, becuase affects (sometimes minimum affects) I will speak to all in English. I have tried to speak with ALL in English, the result is not so good, some local pilots have problems with readbacks and with General Aviation the results could be catastrophic... I prefer speak twice Spanish/English and Everybody will be informed in both languages!So bear with me if I have misunderstood. The reason why spanish ATC are the most incompetent in Europe, with the by far worst English language proficiency (isn't there an ICAO requirement on this by the way? I know my license says level 6 of something) - is actually that the pilots aren't good enough at speaking the language?

.........nice way of directing the blame away from those that deserve it.

And can someone please tell me why the only times I have to tell ATC to move their cell phones away from their mikes is when I'm in Spanish air space? :ugh:

[ATC Watcher]

why do sids n stars when its VMC
Dont' know in Spain but where I come from STAR and SID are mostly constructed for noise abatment, regardless of the Wx outside...and for separation with other airports traffic in vicinity.

[kick the tires]

choumby:why do sids n stars when its VMC,its waste of time n fuel......

Has to qualify for the most ridiculous post ever!

Unless of course you can 100% guarantee that you can see every single aircraft, TCAS or not, that you can predict their trajectory, their closure rate, their intension - all in 3D. Oh, and what they will do and at what speed when they reach the FAF and have a bun flight jockeying for position on finals.

Spanish ATC are very poor, embarrassingly so at times. They are inflexible and blinkered to a short period of time and unable, or unwilling, to put some effort into predicting a traffic flow on the ground or in the air - unless there is a Spanish aircraft involved. In this case they are often very skilled at getting them as number one, all to the detriment of everyone else in the skies.

Sadly you get used to it. That said, they do seem a lot happier these days (in Madrid) and we have had a few directs over the past few days. I've also heard some controllers quote the AENA directive to many frustrated pilots!

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[kick the tires]

Thanks to Madrid ATC for the past 3 days.

Having flown in and out of Madrid for the past 3 days, in some horrendous storms, ATC have been brilliant! They accommodated our extreme deviations and height profiles, gave no priority to Spanish aircraft, asked for our opinion before giving vectors and some even used speed control by way of making spaces between aircraft!

It was truly enlightening. They CAN do it! Perhaps if they take some of their effort away from vectoring Spanish aircraft at the expense of non-nationals, they would provide a high class service on a daily basis.

[saintex2002]

Para todos ustedes...ESTO SI (http://www.cotizalia.com/en-exclusiva/controladores-estudian-bloque-competir-torres-20100920-58318.html) que es lo que hay que hacer...:D:D
...y saludos a Pepe White de mi parte...;);)

One warning... post in English in future, please. Squid

[Amigo ATC]

Yes, there was Spanish flu and now there's Spanish strike. Unlike the French, who go in all-out, transparent strikes just about every week, Spanish workers have another way of showing their dissatisfaction with their employers: low professional standards.

And that's just what us Spanish controllers, all employed by Aena, are doing. We're not giving DCTs or FLs other than the one originally filed simply because we're deeply dissatisfied with our working conditions. For almost a year, Aena's been treating us like s*it, telling all kind of lies in the media about us, and violating even the most basic labor rules that affect their ATC working force. Controllers have responded to that by showing a total lack of concern about professionalism in our day-to-day work. It's what some call the "Spanish strike", that is not a classical-style strike, but just a way of protesting that consists in not caring at all about quality of service. Employers such as Aena who bully their employees commit a great mistake by creating highly-unmotivated workers who learn that caring about being good professionals means nothing to the company administrators. And if those workers are fired, the ones that replace them will do exactly the same thing.

Spanish strike might also be called "resentment" or "discontent".

Honestly, guys (for you pilots and passengers in this forum), I USED TO care about my job and about doing the best I could every day at work. Not so far ago I considered myself a fairly good controller, always willing to learn, to make an effort and to provide a quality public service. But since the moment when my employer began treating me the way it's treating me, I don't give a damn about airplanes, airlines, passengers or flight crews. I PROMISE that I'll purposefully try to give a poor service to every single flight that goes through my hands until Aena gives our rightfully-gained labour rights back to us. Don't expect any help from me! And I'd say that the same applies to most of my workmates in Spanish ATC. What they've done to us is too serious to not have any consequence in the quality of service.

If you wanna avoid delays and feeling frustrated about flying, the best advice I can give is: avoid flying to, from or above Spain until Aena again learns the relationship about ethics, labour rights and motivated employees.

Thanks for reading.

Amigo ATC

[Johnny Tightlips]

Amigo ATC you are a di@k! That's the sort of attitude that's going to cause an accident but it does not surprise me one bit. I am based in Spain with the last six months and every day we put up with this crap. Only the other day in my base Madrid, which had 2 runways closed during peak hours, the tower controller was giving only one minute ten seconds separation between departing heavies and mediums! On a normal day we have 3 min separation between B738's because they are classed as heavies in Spain. I was shocked at that complete disregard for safety. Spanish ATCOS you should be ashamed of yourselves...... Bring on my base transfer before I get killed in this stupid country:uhoh:

[kick the tires]

Johhny, its a wind-up. This is just a to$$er trying to cause mischief. There is no way a professional ATC'er would write something like this. On the contrary, I've found the ATC service in madrid has improved considerably over the past weeks.

I PROMISE that I'll purposefully try to give a poor service to every single flight that goes through my hands until Aena gives our rightfully-gained labour rights back to us.

What a sad person he is!

[PA-28-180]

"I PROMISE that I'll purposefully try to give a poor service to every single flight that goes through my hands until Aena gives our rightfully-gained labour rights back to us."

Having seen this just after it was posted earlier, I've waited until I 'cooled' down before replying (in order not to be 'banned' from the site!!).

All I can say is....I certainly HOPE this is only a wind up! I simply cannot believe that a professional of ANY kind would have this sort of attitude towards their job....regardless of the job, or work environment. If you don't like the environment you work in, either TALK to your superiors like an adult....or LEAVE!! :ugh:

One of the highest paying jobs in my life turned out to be absolutely the worst working environment I ever experienced.....and I left after 6 weeks, to take a job with a better environment for less pay. :ok:

[Daermon ATC]

I agree with the statement of kick the tyres, the other poster must be a troll...

However, while I'm sure no ATC would ever consider disregarding safety, they may look the other way in terms of economy. Also the point of giving no DCTs is to send a message to Aena in terms of "you want to have the final word in control? Fine by me, we'll do it by the book then... your book"

An example of this. Yesterday in MAD/LEMD one of the Aena staff decided to lift any incoming limitations... with the result that planes had to make holds for up to 30 minutes. ATC informed pilots what was the cause of these delays as well as the name of the person responsible for them.

Full article here: Los ATC facilitan a las tripulaciones, el teléfono del responsable de AENA del caos de ayer tarde en Barajas (http://www.aviaciondigitalglobal.com/noticia.asp?NotId=14326&NotDesignId=4)

And by the way in case you didn't know, we will have a general strike in Spain the 29th of september. The government and the mayor labor unions have agreed on some minimal services of:
10% of domestic flights within the peninsula
50% of domestic flights within, to or from the islands (Canary and Balears)
20% for intraeuropean flights
40% for other international flights

However, these "mayor labor unions" have close to nil representativity within aviation (Atcos, handling, pilots, etc) who have professional unions to represent their interests so these numbers may not mean anything.

[Amigo ATC]

To Johnny Tightlips: you too! And I would never do anything that could hinder safety. I don't wanna be involved in an accident and I never play with safety. But there are many other ways to show my dissatisfaction when working on the frequency.

To Kick the tires: yes, I'm sad and in the brink of depression too. But if I take a sick leave Aena won't pay me for any of the days that I don't go to work.

To PA-28-180: hey, coincidentally I have about 80 hours as PPL in the type shown in your user name. Nice airplane, heh? About the issue, you're right, when someone is so profoundly discontent with their working conditions, they should leave. But believe me, I think that 90% of controllers in Spain feel the same way I do, do you expect all of us to suddenly leave?. It's a collective problem, not a personal one. And by the way several hundred Spanish ATC have actually asked to leave the company and are now involved in legal processes to receive a monetary compensation. Aena treats us like we're criminals but at the same time needs us. In any case, if I leave, the guy that replaces me would probably feel the same way about the job.

[uniform]

Can somebody in Spain do us a favour and send the quote by Amigo ATC to the national press. If this guy is not a troll than his actions and the way he explains they work are clearly a criminal act and the individual has to be traced down. They only thing I can say is that this clown should be removed from his position before something serious happens and it's too late.

[Hotel Tango]

What criminal act Uniform? No controller, Spanish or other, would ever compromise safety, as he has since confirmed. He's talking about not going out of his way to provide any service above and beyond the call of duty. It may not be music to your ears but giving you shortcuts or responding to requests which are NOT safety related is not a compulsary part of the job. In fact, ATC management (as has already been mentioned umpteen times in this thread) actively discourage such initiatives.

[flyburg]

Have to agree with some of the previous posters. Not to impressed with MAD atc in the past but flew there on saturday and left on sunday and nothing but profesional ATC. Enough that we were commenting on it during the flight. Clear instructions and standard communication even though we got to hold!!

I don't mind the job action, slots, no directs, and sticking to the FL's as filed is one thing, but you still do the job profesionally, this is the way to win the hearts and souls!! keep it up and good luck!!!:D

[testpanel]

So, just read the news that maybe they may on strike next wednesday.
After almost 4 weeks away from home, maybe those "atco's" will prevent me from seeing my wife again and deserve a deserved week off!
The airlines we are flying for are paying huge bills, also the atc-charges.
I can work live without any atco!
They THINK they need us, but its the other way around!
Thanks to us pilots they have their coffee/thee in their tower, airconditioned in summer and heated in winter, have 2 hour shifts etc etc and make (in spain) more than they deserve!!
I would say, lay them all off, and we go procedural. Ok it will get a mess, but only for a short time......

[uniform]

Hotel Tango, you clearly don't see the seriousness of the situation. We are not talking about not giving any directs anymore here (would you believe we pilots don't even care about that anymore and to tell you the truth Spain is not that big if you fly over it). This is about the lives of thousands of passengers every day. THIS IS NOT A GAME. To give an answer to your question what kind of criminal act. Ever heard about manslaughter? This is exactely what you will be in jail for when an accident happens and they find a quote like this "I don't give a damn about airplanes, airlines, passengers or flight crews. I PROMISE that I'll purposefully try to give a poor service to every single flight that goes through my hands until Aena gives our rightfully-gained labour rights back to us".

LEAVE AVIATION TO PROFESSIONALS AND GO DO SOMETHING ELSE.

[Hotel Tango]

Uniform, you make very bold statements, including the latest addressed to me: "you clearly don't see the seriousness of the situation". I have no idea how you come to that conclusion, just as the manner in which you chose to interpret Amigo ATC's post - despite his own response that he wasn't speaking about safety. I simply attempted to point out that there are other options open to disgruntled employees which is neither illegal nor a threat to safety. Taking into account that he wasn't expressing himself in his mother tongue, I never interpreted Amigo ATC to mean that he would compromise safety. I took it to mean that he will no longer operate beyond what is legally required. If you don't like that then tell your employer that you don't want to fly in Spanish airspace!

[uniform]

Listen Hotel Tango, I wouldn't be so cocky about not flying to Spain anymore. You might seem to forget that your country lives on tourism and your salary is paid by passengers coming to Spain by plane. If the situation like this continues your dream might come true and people will go somewhere else on holidays....

Anyway, I'm going to spend some moments with my family now as I've wasted already enough time in holdings and holding points....

[ATC Watcher]

I would say, lay them all off, and we go procedural.

Ryanair MOL's parrot ? MOL jus made similar satements to the UK press refering to an alledged address to the EU. Really helpful and constructive, as always.

For info Procedural control is done by controllers as well, the difference between radar and procedural is surveillance, larger separation satndards as a result and therefore a drastic reduction in sector and runway capacities.

What you probably wanted to say is TIBA procedures, for which you need no ground infrastrucute, also know as " auto-info" or the " Australian solution ". Works not too bad for up to 10 aircraft per hour. I am sure MOL will like those kind of capacities for his winter schedule.

Just back from BCN yesterday, on time, nice to the point ATC on the R/T, STAR and SID of course ,and nothing to complain about.

[TBSC]

@Amigo ATC


Not so far ago I considered myself a fairly good controller, always willing to learn, to make an effort and to provide a quality public service.


Please tell us what you consider yourself now, then?

[Greenpilots]

Once again, MAD was a joke. Seriously, I am really tolerant, but the environment there...

We got a slot due to "environmental reasons" (20 mins late). Once we got there, we found our that the only possible "environmental reason" was the closure of one of the arrival runways...

Last Saturday we went there, two runways closed. Ground staff told us that it was propably due to the planned flights of the LH A380 to PMI. MAD would surely be one of the diversion airports and was appearently not ready to accommodate the A380. That is what they told us... Anyway, everybody got a slot, due to airport restrictions. Things is that you can not improve it when ready, as Slots are handled by Brussels, but ATC will not send a ready message, due to the fact that it is a local restriction. So no matter who was ready or not, everyone had to wait for a slot that was given without any sense. Some aircraft had to wait for nearly 2 hours, while others didn't make their slot. Aircraft that also had restrictions en-route where not allowed to send ready messages as well... It was totally ridiculous and many people complained.
Once at the runway (at slot time), we had about 15 !!! aircraft waiting at the same time. Interestingly many of the Iberia aircraft did not have slots or did not care, as we insisted in over-taking others (due to slot...) and it worked. TWR controller was a poor chap, but did not seem to have a plan who goes first and so on.
You know when someone says: "Hey, its Africa!". Same goes for Madrid...

[RAWLAW]

As I know this has been a thread regarding other issues I am asking for any valid input regarding the possibility of ATC industrial action on 29 September. Our flight is corporate destined for LETO (Torrejon) from the States. ETA in the later part of the morning.

Would it be very unlikely that inbound flights are affected to any large degree ie., diversion, very long holds?

[flowman]

For RAWLAW

From the CFMU Network Operations Portal
https://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/PUBPORTAL/gateway/spec/index.html :

Industrial action is scheduled to commence at 22h00 UTC (midnight local) in the Spanish transport sector and will last for 24 hours.

MINISTERIO DE FORMENTO has established a minimum service ensuring the wservice provided at ACCs, TACCs, TWRs and airports. This minimum services do not guarantee the operation of all scheduled flights.
Important inter-island routes, between Spain and the European capitals, and outside European destinations, and domestic flights where other transport means are not available have been prioritised.
Disruption to flights caused by agencies other than ATC (handling, security etc.) is anticipated, but ATS service will be provided to those aircraft that are able to operate.

Overflights are not directly affected by strike action but all flights can be subject to ATFCM measures where needed (listed flights, non-Spanish operators and overflights).

It is anticipated that the ATS service level may offer sufficient capacity for all flights allowed to operate or not affected by the decree.

More information will be published when available.

[Amigo ATC]

To Uniform and Greenpilots: that's the attitude! And now if you could please write a letter to Aena's management about how unprofessional Spanish ATC has become and how stressful and inefficient it is to fly between the Pyrenees and Portugal...

To Flowman: there's a general strike tomorrow in Spain. But air traffic control is considered such an important and essential service that 100% of control working positions are going to be open. That means that Spanish ATC personnel are being denied the right to strike.

[McBruce]

Not to worry Amigo, I'm sure yous guys can vent your frustrations by giving a few more "standard routings", that will show the government!!

[uniform]

Amigo ATC, you mean you don't have the courage to go on full strike.
Carmen and Pedro who saved up the whole year to go on holiday would not be so forgiving as we pilots are if they see their holiday flights cancelled because Amigo and Friends are not so happy with their 200.000 euros a year in a country which has an unemployment rate of more than 20% at the moment.

Talking about attitude.....

BTW, I think you guys have more stress than we at the moment so maybe you can write the letter to AENA (I'm sure if I write him in English they won't understand anyway)

Hasta Luego.

[RMC]

Is the action today aligned with the Spannish general strike....any ideas on when we can expect the next strike?

[IB4138]

Most of the Country is open as normal. The "general" strike is sporadic and has not been well supported.

...and by the way Spanish is spelt with just one "n" , RMC.

[hapzim]

Lovely flight to Spain and back today, great weather over Spain, nice quiet airways, a good turn around all on time.:D

Lots of gold harps parked up though. Pax were very complementry that the service had run.

[Daermon ATC]

Small update:

Last tuesday AENA announced they would hire 47 new atcos (the latest group freshly minted at the state sponsored atco-school, Senasa) effective 1st of October just to withdraw that announcement two days later. :confused:

No explanation has been provided but most bet this is the consecuence of another little secret in the dark halls of Aena. All ATC trainers in spain must have a trainer's licence and appropriate trainer formation. Last month one of Aena's directors informed the spanish security agency that they had not enough instructors in smaller towers to guarantee training so they were going to force any atco with 6+ months experience to provide training to the newbies... :eek:

All atcos who have recieved this order have refused and filed legal action against that blatant disregard for safety. :ugh:

And the war against Aena goes on... we shall never surrender! :cool:

[V1]

If Spanish ATC continue to be so difficult I might have to consider asking for a little "tactical weather avoidance" on my next "Tour De La Costa" SID out of Malaga ;)

ATC Amigo you might wish to consider that we all have to negotiate with our own companies over Terms & Conditions but somehow don't inconvenience your ATC Operation whilst doing it.

Hasta La Vista ....

[Daermon ATC]

As if the spanish coast weren't beautiful enough... you know, most of your passengers actually pay to see it, just relax and enjoy the view ;)

In any case, when pilots negotiate their T&C they tend to hold passengers hostage ...

Lufthansa strike threatens global pain - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/BUSINESS/02/21/germany.strike/index.html)

Controllers are ultimately doing the same, and unfortunately in both cases it does have a certain logic to it... if you can't talk your boss into certain concessions, then perhaps the customers may have enough leverage :(

[kick the tires]

Controllers are ultimately doing the same, and unfortunately in both cases it does have a certain logic to it... if you can't talk your boss into certain concessions, then perhaps the customers may have enough leverage

Your Spanish 'customers', at least the ones that fly on Iberia, wont be applying any leverage as they still get directs all the time!

Level playing field is too much to ask I know - but, by your own logic, if us non-nationals keeping asking often enough, perhaps we will achieve it - you may even then get us on side to apply our leverage!

[Daermon ATC]

Just a small update:

Yesterday a few employees of Ineco (a subsiduary of Aena... or as we say here "same dog with different necklace") entered Madrid ACC in order to perform a job-audit... while to my knowledge no one had any atco experience.

After the atcos refused (while at the same time still controlling) Aena threatened with disciplinary action and possible job termination for all those present.

As you can imagine things got a bit :mad: heated and for a while the possibility that the whole of Madrid FIR/UIR would be closed seemed very close at hand. (Both Aena and Usca blame the other part for that... as I wasn't there I could not say for sure)

AENA amenaza con cerrar el espacio aéreo de Madrid si los controladores no admiten la fiscalización de su trabajo | Controladores aéreos españoles (http://www.controladoresaereos.org/?p=4622)


Fly safe and if you happen to go to/over Spain I would load some extra fuel and patience... you'll never know... :uhoh:

[Fire and brimstone]

I am a little surprized at all this criticism of our spanish ATC comrades on this forum, afterall they do a very bad job under very difficult circumstances.....

[coolblackcat]

I'm sorry not to contribute towards the ATC side of Spain with this post. But after living there for 9 years, I can give an opinion or two about their culture.

I've always considered Spain a very bureaucratic country. Not just the government, but each individual finds the need to categorize actions in a formal manner...
And by reading most of these threads, I am not surprised to see that the Spanish ATC system is completely bureaucratic and inflexible. Reading about Spanish ATCs not allowing a pilot to fly at higher levels because he/her filed in a low level flight brings back memories of everyday issues with paperwork and civil servants in Spain.

I really don't understand how some people come to think that the Spanish are a relaxed country full of fun and parties.

[JWP1938]

Wife and I lived there for 5 and half years until 2005. Generally (not always obviously) put a Spaniard behind a desk or in a uniform and he/she becomes a tyrant who never admits a mistake. Each and every one insists their colleague (who sent you away for the correct forms last week) was wrong and he/she is correct. Go and get the right ones again. You had to queue at 5 or 6 in the morning to get a numbered ticket to be seen in the office which opened at 9. Tickets (a few) were handed out at 8.30 and reps of other nationalities handed out bribes to get large numbers of tickets. The rest were told to come back next day/week. They build ramps for the disabled in pavements and then do not ticket those parked illegally in front of them but charge others in rural areas for parking outside their own properties. Telefonica (the telephone company) sent out modems to hundreds of thousands of foreigners which were not compatible with their current equipment. It didn't happen to Spanish subscribers. I could go on for hours. Sorry if this seems an anti-Spanish rant but you can see why we moved back to the UK. Have a Google and see how many Spanish town mayors are in prison for corruption.

[Cameronian]

Well, that will have put the cat among the pigeons!

[duyentranvan]

we have the best atc in the world compared to the other european countries and UK. We give the best radar vectors and u guys cant do nuts bout it.:ugh:

[compton3bravo]

I know a little off message but cannot agree JWP1938 about Spain. Lived here now for three years and not too many complaints - not perfect but where is. The people are so much more friendly from the miserable lot I left behind in the UK and the weather is far better plus the food etc and its cheaper. I have never had to pay to park my car yet (I do not live in a large city) - sorry you don't park your car you bring to a halt!
Where can you get a coffee or something a little stronger at nine'clock in the morning waiting for the supermarket to open at 9.30! To me they have the right attitude - the family comes first, then food followed by the work ethic - more important things than working. There has been a lot of corruption here over the last few years I grant you but would you say the UK was whiter than white - I don't think so.
It is your choice to go back to the UK and be ripped off like nobody's business with people running round like headless chickens - good luck to you as I sit out on the veranda at 9 o'clock in the morning with the sun shining down with the temperature at 20 degC towards the end of October!

[Daermon ATC]

Have a Google and see how many Spanish town mayors are in prison for corruption


Unfortunately not too many... most still manage to cling somehow to their posts, have a look at Mr. Camps in Valencia as a key example. If it weren't for Italy we would look very bad indeed :suspect:

Anyway, I could talk about criminallity in UK, or their teen pregnancy rate, or their suicide rate...:uhoh: but it seems to me none of this would be of any interest or use to this topic so let's go back to talk about something more professional.


If you have flown this morning over the Canary islands you may have had severe delays. he reason for this is that AENA had decided to shut down one of the VORs (initially scheduled for 15th November) but many ATCOs did not have time to required training on alternate procedures.

With blatant disregard for elemental safety, AENA ordered controllers to their posts regardles of whether they had the training for it. Failure to comply was threathened with immediate job termination (they brought lawyers and notarys). :mad:

Issue is still not resolved and could possibly lead to a chain reaction across all the spanish workcenters. :oh:

Graves incidentes en el Centro de Control de Canarias y ciberataque a este servidor: actualizaciones horarias | Controladores aéreos españoles (http://www.controladoresaereos.org/?p=4766)

Good luck and fly safe.

[OFSO]

Off thread I know but most Catalans would agree with JWP1938. I've lived here for 17 years now and the locals are a different breed to the rest of Spain (provided you speak or try to speak Catalan, of course, and why not ? It's their country).

[Amigo ATC]

Hi again amigos,


To OFSO, FWIW I'm not Catalan but I work at a Catalan ATC facility and have been living in Catalonia for 20+ years and my wife and my daughters are Catalan. Thanks for your kind words but I have to say that statistics show Barcelona ACC is leading Madrid ACC in the number of en-route minutes of delay although we handle significantly less traffic.


With a compulsory, non-negociated increase in compulsory working hours of about 50% for Spanish ATC (believe me, it's true) and a salary cut of around 50%, how could Aena's managers not foresee that the discontent of the ATC workforce would cause a noticeable decline of service quality? The truth is that Aena's customers (that is, airlines and passengers) are the ones who are paying the consequences: no fuel savings, no RFLs, no direct routes, no flexibility, no continous climb/descent... I don't even say 'hello' anymore to pilots on first radio contact!


The airlines should demand an explanation from Aena for this sudden decrease in punctuality and quality of service.

[captplaystation]

Think you are dreaming there. Any decent company constructs flight logs and fuel calculation based on a STAR & SID being flown in its entirety. Maybe some sharp companies will possibly notice that previous fuel savings are not now happening, but they will probably blame the pilots (as usual) & leave it at that.
Don't say hello ? I doubt if the fatigued p1ssed off individual in the cockpit you speak to will give it more than a passing thought, probably he will just assume you didn't get laid the night before. :rolleyes:
Indirect (very indirect if we are talking routings) action like this gets lost in the general clutter I hate to tell you. If you want to achieve anything it is direct action, or you are p1ssing into the wind Amigo.
As my fellow Brits would say, "put up or shutup"
What you are doing now is meaningless, ineffectual and doesn't actually bother anyone, as after a week or two they will just see it as the norm.

Look at the "big strike" in Spain a few weeks ago, well, that was a bit of a non-event ? ?
Best take some lessons from the French, mind you they ain't achieving so much at the moment.
Us "civilised" Europeans are becoming too good at being mounted rather than counted.

[TBSC]

I don't even say 'hello' anymore to pilots on first radio contact!


:D :D

Isn't it pathetic to punish your c u s t o m e r s (if you know what the word means) with this devastating retribution instead of standing up for your rights like real men and women?

[captplaystation]

Worse than pathetic, it is ineffectual ! ! :ugh: do you think pilots are going to go running to their CP/DFO/CEO crying bitterly "Manuel didn't say hello! ! please call the President/Prime Minister/Chancellor/Finance Minister/Pope and demand the Spanish state reinstate these chaps former T's &C's" Er . . . I don't think so := :hmm:

[Jimmy Hoffa Rocks]

Hello Amigo ATC,

Could you please explain more the no direct routings, if it is indeed the fault of AENA.

It seems we have AENA blaming the controllers and the controllers blaming AENA

Or si puedes adjuntar este directivo de AENA

Why are some controllers giving direct routings, others not then ?

The extra fuel, delays affects the environment and company profits and is not acceptable. Yes AENA is partly to blame.

In Barcelona we still have slots that do not make sense,

Separation between Aircraft on departure, in Barcelona is painful at times and increases delays.

Is there still a lot of turnover of controllers and its too much ?
Constantly having new controllers ( being trained ) in Barcelona affects the operation.

[zerotohero]

Idiot on the job training monitored

I love it when I hear that on the Atis.

Its not just the no direct and capped flight levels V Planned thats poor its the whole thing in general, you know its bad when flying with Spanish pilots who are embarrassed to say that they are there fellow countrymen.

Shame on you.

[Cityliner]

Go on strike or work as normal but pls stop this BS!:ugh::ugh:
New game is to release non spanish ACs just at the given CTOT time.
Once I learned that a CTOT includes the 5min before and the 10min after
but obviously I was wrong according to a PMI Tower controller who was telling me something about flowmanagment before handover to MRS FIR.
Needless to say we were waiting alone at PMIs 24R

[heavy.airbourne]

I do not understand all those complaints about not getting any directs. I am paid by the minute, and not saving those 5 minutes thru directs gives me 20 bucks more at month's end, per sector. :) Makes me smile!

[Cmon-PullUP]

Those 5 minutes also equals 200 kg fuel burn on most medium sized aircrafts with subsequent pollution to the planet we all would like to maintain for our kids future, while still doing our jobs.

MOL said a very sensible thing not long ago: Sack all the spanish controllers, and employ people who actually want to do the work they are paid to do. (and maybe they could even employ people who would put pride into their jobs)

This nonsenes and childish behaviour from spanish atc has been on kindergarden level for long enough now.

[Daermon ATC]

Although I do agree that there are environmental costs to spanish ATC's work to rule I'm absolutely sure that those mentioning them only think of our legacy to the future when it suits them.

Air traffic basically can be seen as a process in which zillions of gallons of fossil fuels are burned at high altitudes in order to drive on the world's economy... which is also a planet killer, isn't it?

So can we just leave the hipocrisy out and get back to the topic?

There has been an interesting entry about the -5/+10 minute rule regarding CTOTs that needs some explaining.

Assuming a certain sector has a capacity for 10 flights at the same time while there are 10 or less expected, no regulation is issued. When the eleventh flight plan is entered, all 11 get a slot, but only the last one gets a delay. In those cases it is mandatory for ATCs to ensure that the slot is met precisely. Those -5/+10 are only for ATC use in terms of building up a departure secuence. If your regulation originated due to congestion of one of the sectors on your flight route then ATC should ensure that you meet exactly your CTOT even if your's is the only plane on the field and you've been ready for 20 minutes.

In Spain you also have to add the incompetency of our ANSP, AENA. This is a real picture showing 13 FPS at LEMD with CTOT at 15:20 (left data-block, first row in small print, written as white-on-black). As there are such things as wake turbulence separation it is simply impossible to meet these expectations. :ugh:

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5087/slotslemd.jpg
Image from http://controladoresareosyotrashierbas.********.com


As for the efectiveness of this kind of low-intensity war, it is up to debate amongst controllers themselves. If you consider the current conflict as a guerilla-style warfare, it has the benefit of avoiding the other side to put up their heavy artillery (Aena is 100% state-owned and laws have been custom-made in order to favour her with only a parody of legality).

Iberia has acknowledged heavy losses due to this... perhaps with some time several airlines will put up enough pressure on european instances or the spanish ministry of infrastructures to end this conflict.

There will be some unpleasanties on both sides, don't take them personal. Just keep up the good work and please continue to file complaints through the appropriate channels.

[zerotohero]

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?

Filed at FL300

ATC "RyanairXXXX Climb FL300"

RyanairXXXX "Climb FL300 RyanairXXXX"

ATC "RyanairXXXX what level do you request for cruise?"

RyanairXXXX "We are filed at FL300 but if available FL340"

ATC "Standby"

--------10seconds---------

ATC "RyanairXXXX negative, you have to maintain FL300."

RyanairXXXX (Both pilots looking at each other with a look of WTF?

needless too say frequencys quite and sod all on the TCAS near us the whole flight.

What was the point in even asking us.

[1985]

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?

Filed at FL300

ATC "RyanairXXXX Climb FL300"

RyanairXXXX "Climb FL300 RyanairXXXX"

ATC "RyanairXXXX what level do you request for cruise?"

RyanairXXXX "We are filed at FL300 but if available FL340"

ATC "Standby"

--------10seconds---------

ATC "RyanairXXXX negative, you have to maintain FL300."

RyanairXXXX (Both pilots looking at each other with a look of WTF?

needless too say frequencys quite and sod all on the TCAS near us the whole flight.

What was the point in even asking us.


Maybe Fl's 310 - 340 were occupied but fl350+ wasn't? and if you'd asked for 350+ then maybe you'd have got it

Maybe its a vertically split sector and then one above the one you're in was busy and couldn't take you.

Maybe the next sector is vertically split and the higher one of the two couldn't work you at the level you wanted so you had to stay in the lower one (think CLN going to LMS/LUS at swanwick)

Maybe the next sector couldn't take you at your requested level

Maybe in the quiet sector the only traffic was a conflict to you

Maybe you should realise the TCAS is naff all use as an air traffic tool (i had a KLM ask for lower the other day my response was "negative traffic directly below you descent once you're clear" his "ohhhhhhh there he is" )

Maybe he doesn't want you to ask for a higher level when he gets busy (happens all the time)

Maybe he just doesn't like Ryanair

Maybe he just doesn't like the environment and wants to kill it just that little bit faster

Maybe he's a spanish controller who wants the aviation industry to collapse

Maybe he's a spanish controller who is working to rule to protect his terms and conditions that have been ripped up by his employers and government because they found found out they don't have enough staff and have been paying some alot of overtime.

[Airbrake]

How about, any other country probably a perfectly good reason to keep you where you are.

However, in Spain as there were no Spanairs, Iberias, cars or fuel trucks to hold you for he just did the next best thing and kept you low because he could!:ok:

[p_perez]

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?

(...)

RyanairXXXX "We are filed at FL300 but if available FL340"


I think: "why the hell don´t you file the FL you will later request?" :ugh:

And also, coming from a Ryanair pilot: "why the hell don´t you tell your company managers to stop making `friends´ among fellow ATCO´s, with public statements demanding to prohibit our right to strike, among others ..." :*

BTW, hello to everyone, I´m back ... ;)

[d105]

This ridiculous behavior needs to stop, now! Regardless of whether you are frustrated with Ryanair management, you need to stop treating the Ryanair employees as childishly as you have. We as crews have nothing at all to do with management and their attitude towards ATC, nor do we have anything to do with any and all legal battles that might ensue. I don't care what O'Leary says, he does not represent my views nor does he speak for any of my colleagues to my knowledge. We're all just doing to do our job to the best of our abilities, with the best interests of our passengers in mind. This attitude you have is completely unprofessional. Take out your frustration on your superiors if you must, but leave the people who have ****-all to do with it alone!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I think: "why the hell don´t you file the FL you will later request?" :ugh:

There are many reasons why we might request a level different to the flight plan.

Why the hell don't you include "Flexibility" in your job description?

The primary purpose of ATC systems worldwide is to separate aircraft to prevent collisions, to organize and expedite the flow of traffic.

Still, none out of three aint bad is it?!

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Just file at FL430 and then pick what you want and tell them unable 43 due weight, unprofessional - yes, economical - yes, frustrating on the Spanish ATC trying to frustrate me - yes, cocking up the system - yes....

[fokker1000]

What is blindingly obvious, is how good other controllers are. This is what highlights how poor/unhelpful Spanish ATC can be.. It's a real shame as tourism is a major part of their economy.
A month or two ago we called for push/start in AGP [no slot restriction etc]. Then called for taxi to be told to hold in present postion due large que at the hold. why the hell would ATC at a busy airport not just say 'start delayed for 10 minutes due congestion'. That IMHO is truely pathetic.
As I've said before you really wouldn't want to have a major problem in their airspace, rather be over West Africa to be honest!

[Admiral346]

d105, if your company's boss makes comments like that, and spanish ATC doesn't let you climb, why do you take that so personally? Are you paying for the fuel? Is a large portion of your wage based on the profitability of your airline?

I personally hate what MOL stands for, and what he is doing/has done to the industry. But I don't think every Ryan pilot has the same believes... Have him pay for fuel for saying things like that!

I am with spanish ATC on this, they are getting screwed by privatisation, by the Zeitgeist of producing everything as cheaply as possible and finding consensus on the lowest denominator.

And if they don't reply to my buenas tardes or not doesn't phase me a bit, my grumpy countrymen of especially Bremen radar (the other ones aren't much better) don't even reply to a have a good day or the like. If one takes all this as personal, it would be advisable to find a good cardiologist.

Nic, y buena suerte a ATC espaniol!

[andrepilota]

Probably most of you (pilots) ignore one little but VERY VERY IMPORTANT THING:

the level you file in the FPL/RPL is what counts in the CFMU to calculate sector capacity/occupancy.

therefore,if you want to fly at a different level you might occupy another sector which is not supposed to have you there.

of course there are lot of different ways to handle such situation (being positive or negative the response),but still,there are several good reasons not to climb you to your RFL.

and trust me,in germany (DFS) are even more strict than the spaniards when it comes to Flight Plan Adherence Policy,some guys in Karlsruhe even complain if you send traffic direct,without talking about FLs (I've seen with my own eyes traffic having to be descended from FL380 to 320 because of such a reason (a pure overflight with a destination far enough to NOT justify a descent):}

just my 0.02%

G

[nick14]

Sent the long way round at LEMG whilst a spanish aircraft was given shortcuts (I was with a spanish speaking captain, he let me know what was going on as ATC were speaking in spanish/english). We were then radar vectored to a 18/20 mile final.

On more than one occasion mobile phone interference has rendered the ATC transmissions unintelligible. Even when there are no mobiles on the radios are often poor and difficult to read.

If they deserve the wages then the London guys/girls are underpaid!!

Cheers

[stev]

Nick 41

your more right than you know. The lads and gals in london are underpaid. How about all of the spanish ATC have to do 2 month in NATS handeling LGW traffic before they get hired and obviously pass an asesment test. What would happen oh god my nephew has not got the job, i was promised he would get it. Spanish ATC are too closely related as with alot of Spain. 21st centuary has yet to befall on them. GO ON STRIKE if you have a mandate the people will support you if you haven't then rethink your position. I have never been a Reganist but these people are bringing that back to the popular domain.

[Cernicalo]

I kindly request to the moderator to ban Zerotohero.

It's second time, he calls "idiots" to controlers. He did the same in this post in the past, so I formly REQUEST to the moderator to ban this person. A Ryanair pilot should be polite, I think. In this post he did it before, regarding to Malaga trainees ATCs.

Aviation used to be a profesion for gentlemen. :(


Idiot on the job training monitored

I love it when I hear that on the Atis.Copied from the page #8 of this thread:

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/post_old.gif 28th Jun 2010, 20:22 -0700 [PDT] #160 (http://www.pprune.org/5779267-post160.html) (permalink (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-8.html#post5779267)) zerotohero (http://www.pprune.org/members/264786-zerotohero)

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Where the company needs me not where I want to be!
Age: 32
Posts: 197


Cernicalo

As maybe we talked each other in AGP, Could you please, write all the phrase: "Controllers on the job... training monitored

lol,,, when I hear that in Spain I cant but help write down idiot in training when copying down the ATIS.
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Join Date: Jul 2008
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Idiot on the job training monitored

I love it when I hear that on the Atis.

Its not just the no direct and capped flight levels V Planned thats poor its the whole thing in general, you know its bad when flying with Spanish pilots who are embarrassed to say that they are there fellow countrymen.

Shame on you.
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[zerotohero]

Funny how thats what pretty much everyone is saying on this thread too!

"Station Calling" lol

[Cernicalo]

Hello Nick14,

Sent the long way round at LEMG whilst a spanish aircraft was given shortcuts (I was with a spanish speaking captain, he let me know what was going on as ATC were speaking in spanish/english). We were then radar vectored to a 18/20 mile final.From your words I suppose you are talking about RWY13, so.... I supposed you completed the ILS Z for RWY13. Yes, I think that the vectored traffic maybe did 4-5 miles less than you... What a incredible long way round...

If you entered 7 miles behind him, you were in the right path! Somebody has to be number 1, and somebody has to be number 2... 7 miles behind... Only one RWY!!!

Regards,

Cernicalo.

[Cernicalo]

Viele danke Admiral346!!!. Wir Brauche glück!

....

I am with spanish ATC on this, they are getting screwed by privatisation, by the Zeitgeist of producing everything as cheaply as possible and finding consensus on the lowest denominator

....

Nic, y buena suerte a ATC espaniol!

[Cernicalo]

Hello thebeast,


tick with filed flight planned levels then ask the french for higher when transfered...i just accept thier nonsense...fire them all bring in Regan to sort it .. **** hes dead!Don't worry, politicians are working on it... :ugh: Bring Reagan please! :(

[Cernicalo]

Zerotohero,

Don't want polemics, but, if I continue with a similar behaviour than you, I could say: it is funny too what pretty much everyone is saying about an Airline you know very well. Fuel qty lol??? :confused:

No more replies in my behalf

Funny how thats what pretty much everyone is saying on this thread too!

"Station Calling" lol

[Cernicalo]

Cmon-PullUP

Fed up reading the same nonsenses... 5 minutes fuel burn in a 2 hour 30 minutes flight is what is killing the planet... Maybe will kill it one day before! Next time, don't ask for high speed approach or departure!

It does not exist petrol based "Green" planes or cars. Its is just pure marketing. The problem is, we believe it!!!


Cmon-PullUP (http://www.pprune.org/members/295484-cmon-pullup)

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: In the flightdeck
Age: 36
Posts: 6


Those 5 minutes also equals 200 kg fuel burn on most medium sized aircrafts with subsequent pollution to the planet we all would like to maintain for our kids future, while still doing our jobs.

MOL said a very sensible thing not long ago: Sack all the spanish controllers, and employ people who actually want to do the work they are paid to do. (and maybe they could even employ people who would put pride into their jobs)

This nonsenes and childish behaviour from spanish atc has been on kindergarden level for long enough now.
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[Cityliner]

No1 or No2 for App doesn' t matter there are dozens of other examples how non spanish airlines are disadvantaged by ATC!
Starts with Airportslots at PMI and an absolute ridiculous start up policy, goes on to weird Sequencing inbound the Canaries, flying 50 miles with flaps2 and speed 180 because somewhere 100 miles away a Binter ATR is taking off to the same destination or flying the entire Vibas1B at AGP while a 3min previous Aircraft gets a direct HIJ after departure.
If you have the support by your union and your colleagues and a legalized for any actions go on strike, if not do your job and stop this nonsense

[p_perez]

In fact, we ATCO's at Spain have an inside joke playing with the name of this airline: RAYAnair ("seguir la RAYA" = "follow strictly the LINE").

This doesn't pretend to be a fight pilots VS controllers. This is against politicians and company managers that want to turn everything and everybody to low-cost just to increase their benefits.

Saludos!

[Cernicalo]

Cityliner,

I don't know in PMI or in Canaries, but if that is as right as you tell about AGP...

1. Flying V1B after a B1G or another V1B, you will have 2 minutes, not three.

2. ¿Direct HIJ?. I have NEVER heard about a direct to HIJ, In fact, the HIJ departures are never issued. Sure you are not talking about Vibas, Bln, Lojas or Yeste?

3. The best to do for our Union, as you say, will be an strike. Of course, like the 29 September General Strike (What a shame of strike... Goverment asking for a strike against themselves, with everything open and working...) the ATC had a minimum services of 108%. More people working than in a normal day. If that would be your case, do you think the best to do is a legal strike?

4. I supposed then, due the points 1 to 3, the 50 miles 180Kts flaps2 is quite quite quite exaggerated.


http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/post_new.gif 15th Nov 2010, 00:56 -0800 [PST] #691 (permalink (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-35.html#post6061053)) Cityliner (http://www.pprune.org/members/58964-cityliner)

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Location: here and there
Posts: 68


No1 or No2 for App doesn' t matter there are dozens of other examples how non spanish airlines are disadvantaged by ATC!
Starts with Airportslots at PMI and an absolute ridiculous start up policy, goes on to weird Sequencing inbound the Canaries, flying 50 miles with flaps2 and speed 180 because somewhere 100 miles away a Binter ATR is taking off to the same destination or flying the entire Vibas1B at AGP while a 3min previous Aircraft gets a direct HIJ after departure.
If you have the support by your union and your colleagues and a legalized for any actions go on strike, if not do your job and stop this nonsense
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[Cityliner]

Sorry you are right I was talking about Lojas and RWY31 for DEP.

I personally would prefer that you guys go on strike, that would bring you a lot more support from the pilots, at least from me.
Because with the current behaviour I think you will reach nothing.
A strike is a fact people are more likely to accept.

[kick the tires]

I agree with Cityliner, in fact i would go further to say that the current inaction has led to an erosion of what little respect I had for Spanish ATC!

[Cernicalo]

Hi Cityliner and Kick_the_tyres,

Unfortunaly, for the Spanish mass and the spanish media, the ATC is always in strike, although there are no strikes I think since 1987... But, as the pilots, people and media says ATC are overoveroverpaided and priviliged and "mafia" and surely, pedophiles and not-going-to-church-on-sundays.

Topics...

Sorry for you guys, In the event of strike, will be not alllowed by the goverment, Spain is quite dictatorial nowadays, quite similar the manners of the minister Mr "White" to Franco.

Remember 29-Sep-2010 strike: 108% of MINIMUM services. More people working than a normal day. Newspaper telling ATC hijacks the society and don't let the country to move forward, by a mafiosos and privileged group. And people just clapping to the goverment that is making looooots of people is earning 800€ per month, in Spain, ¿Europe?.

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/post_old.gif 15th Nov 2010, 12:34 -0800 [PST] #693 (permalink (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-35.html#post6061936)) Cityliner (http://www.pprune.org/members/58964-cityliner)

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Location: here and there
Posts: 69


Sorry you are right I was talking about Lojas and RWY31 for DEP.

I personally would prefer that you guys go on strike, that would bring you a lot more support from the pilots, at least from me.
Because with the current behaviour I think you will reach nothing.
A strike is a fact people are more likely to accept.
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['I' in the sky]

Amigo ATC,
You ask "With a compulsory, non-negociated increase in compulsory working hours of about 50% for Spanish ATC (believe me, it's true) and a salary cut of around 50%, how could Aena's managers not foresee that the discontent of the ATC workforce would cause a noticeable decline of service quality?"

I put it to you that knowing full well you have for several years been paid well over the going rate for controllers internationally, you should have foreseen that one day this situation would be rectified, and rightly so.

Whatever difficulties you may think there are to being an air traffic controller, it is no more difficult in Spain than anywhere else, you don't do a better job of it in Spain than anywhere else, so why should you be paid more in Spain than anywhere else ?

I have yet to hear you or any of your colleagues and supporters make any kind of attempt to justify why spanish controllers are worth four times more than those anywhere else.

[p_perez]

'I' in the sky:

until the change imposed to us, we worked 1200 hrs. a year as our basic mandatory roster. Out of these hours, we had a 33% rest on earlies and lates, and a 50% rest on nights. Our basic salary for these hours was below the average salary of europeans ATCO´s (aprox. 2000€ a month before taxes, what they are planning to pay for new ATCO´s from now on).

As AENA decided not to hire enough controllers to attend the rising demand of air traffic (it is very expensive to select, train and hire new controllers), they decided to offer us well paid overtime: not all of us accepted, it was voluntary so you could always choose if you wanted to have less spare time or see not so often your family for that extra quid. This overtime is what made our wages soar in the last years, but it was AENA´s decision to solve the problem of increasing traffic this way. Our union (USCA) always demanded from the company an increase in the number of operational ATCO´s, but as said, the last word was always AENA´s.

What they did last feb., unilaterally and imposed, is increase our basic roster from 1200 hs. to 1670 hrs. a year => a 39% increase in our working hours, for everyone! And as they see it is not enough, they are beginning to talk about a new 1800 hr. limit for next year!!!

Also, they reduced our rest breaks from 33% to 25% on earlies/lates, and from 50% to 33% on nights => this is another increase on our working hours of about a 34%, which adds to the previous increase. This was also imposed, with no previous studies on the effect on our work load. And monoposition is been considered also: Lake Constanza?

Add to this that they decided to reduce our consolidated basic salary by a 40%, arguing that AENA didn´t submit the agreed (with USCA) increase of that basic salary to an interministerial commission (CECIR???) that nobody even knew that existed (needless to say, it was AENA´s obligation to do so, not ours ...).

More: using false/manipulated information that AENA regularly sends to EUROCONTROL and is included in their annual performance report, we have suffered an absolutely overwhelming media campaign in Spain, by results of which we Spanish ATCO´s are now seen as social lazy scum that work very little, earn very much, and are always on strike. On the contrary: we have been working an average of 1700 hrs. in the past years (as the Spanish m/s-inister Jose Blanco has aknowledged), way over the European average, with a basic salary way below European average, and with not a single strike since 1986 ...

And to finish and to not make this summary too long, operational decisions are now in the hands of AENA staff: RWY in use, placing regulations, SLOT/CTOT awarding (see this picture of how they handle it http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-34.html#post6058921), sector capacity, number of ATCO´s in service per shift ...

Now AENA can access to recordings of the communications ATCO/pilot at their discretion, without the need of a previous incident report that was in place until now: this is part of the JUST CULTURE philosophy that is necessary in the aviation industry. The custody of those recordings (in each FIR) was in the hands of the Chief Supervisor (a fellow ATCO); but in Sevilla ACC, the Chief Supervisor in charge refused to permit the study of the tapes that AENA staff demanded because there was no previous incident to justify it. He is now suffering a disciplinary action (16 days of work and salary suspended), and the tapes with the recordings have been reasigned to an AENA manager who can freely use them at own will: i. e. 3 ATCO´s are now under a disciplinary action procedure in LEJR using the tapes as an evidence. Don´t forget that in those tapes are the voices of us ATCO´s and you fellow PILOTS, doesn´t this make you happy? ...

AENA and the Spanish goverment have recently reversed their decision to retire my 57+ years old colleagues from operational positions (even with the brutal increase in our "productivity", they still didn´t have enough ATCO´s); they have also desisted from stablishing AFIS at El Hierro island at Canarias, so they are giving again control service there (with the same AFIS staff, who are trained in several weeks to give CONTROL service instead of INFORMATION service).

Not a single new condition in the past 11 months has been negotiated between AENA and USCA: all the changes have been imposed.


To all of you pilots that fly in Spanish Airspace: my apologies, and those of my colleagues, for being so pissed off.


Saludos!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

until the change imposed to us, we worked [B]1200 hrs. a year as our basic mandatory roster. Out of these hours, we had a 33% rest on earlies and lates, and a 50% rest on nights. Our basic salary for these ours was below the average salary of europeans ATCO´s (aprox. 2000€ a month before taxes).

On the contrary: we have been working an average of 1700 hrs. in the past years (as the Spanish m/s-inister Jose Blanco has aknowledged), way over the European average, with a basic salary way below European average, and with not a single strike since 1986 ...

they are beginning to talk about a new 1800 hr. limit for next year

Don´t forget that in those tapes are the voices of us ATCO´s and you fellow PILOTS, doesn´t this make you happy? ...


So your basic roster was 1200 hours a year. You voluntarily worked an extra 500 hours a year, working up to 1700 hours a year, for "well paid over time".

Now they want you to work 1670 hours but without the overtime. Tough luck son, join the club.

1800 hours a year is about normal in this industry. You won't get much sympathy for that either.

This all boils down to money doesn't it? You will be working, essentially, the same amount of hours that you have been for years, but you won't be getting your "well paid overtime" anymore.

Your final point about ATC recordings and my voice being on it. Who cares, this happens all the time, even when I 'phone my own company. If you've got nothing to hide then it won't matter will it?

[p_perez]

1800 hours a year is about normal in this industry.

Are you sure, mah?


Your final point about ATC recordings and my voice being on it. Who cares, this happens all the time, even when I 'phone my own company. If you've got nothing to hide then it won't matter will it?

Right to privacy? What about allowing the police to enter your house anytime, for any reason, with no judge supervising it? After all, you don´t have nothing to hide, do you?


(...)You voluntarily worked an extra 500 hours a year, working up to 1700 hours a year, for "well paid over time".

Now they want you to work 1670 hours but without the overtime. Tough luck son, join the club.


Sure, excuse this "boutade": let me think of something that maybe you practice voluntarily in your spare (private) time, and lets make it mandatory ... Well, I better not!


You won't get much sympathy for that either.

I guess we´ll get the same sympathy from you as you get from us when you guys complain about no direct routings or not filed FL´s. Anyway, we are not asking for your sympathy, just letting you know why sometimes **** happens ...


Saludos!


Saludos!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Are you sure, mah?

Yup, give or take here and there but that's pretty normal. By the way, if I assume you have 6 weeks leave a year, 1800pa works out at about 39 hours a week which, for a 5 day week, is just under 8 hours a day - normal. What were you doing before?!

Right to privacy? What about allowing the police to enter your house anytime, for any reason, with no judge supervising it? After all, you don´t have nothing to hide, do you?

If I was worried about my right to privacy I wouldn't be transmitting my voice on a frequency which has, probably, hundreds of listeners. Somewhat different to refusing entry to my house, in which I have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

Sure, excuse this "boutade": let me think of something that maybe you practice voluntarily in your spare (private) time, and lets make it mandatory ... Well, I better not!

So you're quite happy to give up your spare/private time for a ridiculous amount of money but dislike it if you're not being given a ridiculous amount of money?

I'm not bothered about flying my flight planned route, it means I have to say less to you. But, I am not the cause of your plight you, however, are the cause of the 'no directs'. Aren't ya?

[testpanel]

we worked 1200 hrs

So, at least you worked! Be happy!

If you don't want, why don't you join the other ar 20% unemployed in spain? And yes, i worked and still live in spain, BUT i was forced to accept a job outside spain.

btw, airliners are paying atc charges, its not the other way around!

[p_perez]

Yup, give or take here and there but that's pretty normal.

The average among European ATCO´s is more like 1350 hrs. a year, including training. In our 1200 hrs. training was not included.

And what about pilots?! Check this thread, it´s about RAYAnair, so I guess you can find even better conditions out there (maybe yours?):

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/421748-ryanair-pilot-roster.html#post5832168


Regarding your (OUR) privacy in the aviation industry, you sacrifice it in order to better avoid incidents/accidents in the future, not to provide excuses for your company in order to file a disciplinary action against you. Is that so hard to understand?


And revise how you value your own spare time, not ours, after all, we each are suposed to spend it as we choose, not as a company managers decides. Do you know the meaning of "Slavery"? As it has been previously mentioned in this thread, AENA can even make you work on a day off with almost no previous notice. If you also like that, well ... sado is not my game!


Directs and FL not filed ... hmmmm ... have you heard of Flight Plan Adherence?? Thats from EUROCONTROL, not from Spanish ATCO´s.


Once again, saludos!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

That'll be 900 flying hours a year. What you fail to grasp is that duty hours can be upwards of 1800pa.

not to provide excuses for your company in order to file a disciplinary action against you. Is that so hard to understand?

No it isn't, but, again(!), if you haven't done anything wrong it won't matter. If you are trying to withhold that information because you're not complying with something then that is a different matter.

You chose to spend your free time earning "well paid overtime". That is what you valued your spare time as - extra money. Now you are having to work the same amount of hours as you were before but without overtime. It boils down to money at the end of the day and not the "extra" hours you have to work doesn't it?

Yep Eurocontrol flight plan adherence day was a couple of months ago. Why is Spain the only country in Europe that will not allow any flexibility?

[Cmon-PullUP]

Cernicalo: Fed up reading the same nonsenses... 5 minutes fuel burn in a 2 hour 30 minutes flight is what is killing the planet... Maybe will kill it one day before! Next time, don't ask for high speed approach or departure!

It does not exist petrol based "Green" planes or cars. Its is just pure marketing. The problem is, we believe it!!!

I couldn't really care about what you are fed up with cernicalo. Clearly you are a guy who doesn't care about anything but yourself, and has no regard for environment, colleagues, passengers or the airlines who keep us all employed, and that is why i can't respect you or your attitude at all.

It might be a surprise for you, but some of us actually care for especially the environment amongst the other things, and just because others pollute the planet (cars, airplanes, factory's - everything basically) doesn't mean we should just join that queue simply because Spanish ATC is a big kindergarten with very sloppy and un-proffesional attitudes.

If Spanish ATC want any kind of support and sympathy, they can start with being proffesional and safety minded with their so-called "service".

Had NATS controllers as an example called for better conditions, i believe most would fully support them, as they actually do provide a proffesional and very safety minded service that we all would like to maintain and build on.

['I' in the sky]

P.Perez

The following is why you have no public support and this information did not come from AENA, it came straight from the horses mouth, a senior tower controller. It is also something which is from at least 5 years ago, not something new since your recent dispute with AENA began.

This controller "took home" 8000 euros a month - maybe it wasn't true, maybe she just wanted us to feel bad. 8000 euros a month for working on average 3 days per week - 3 days per week. That was because all the hours which were supposed to be worked were volutarily crammed into 3 days, and on each day those hours which were in excess of a normal day were paid at overtime. This is what you refer to as extra duties. In english it's called "fiddling". More fool your employers for letting you get away with it although I believe they would probabely still be happy to let you get away with it now had not outside influences forced Spain to start putting its corrupt house in order.

[kick the tires]

P_Perez,

A great summary of what's going on, thank you.

On the contrary: we have been working an average of 1700 hrs. in the past years (as the Spanish m/s-inister Jose Blanco has aknowledged), way over the European average, with a basic salary way below European average, and with not a single strike since 1986 ...

I don't understand this.

Basic salary means nothing! Whats the final package, the take-home pay?

From what I read, you have been doing this, without complaint and for excessive reward, for "the past years"

Why are you now complaining that AENA are increasing your hours from 1200 to 1670?

Is it because you are not going to be taking home the excessive overtime money? Surely you didn't expect such salaries to continue in a country that, like most of Europe, is broke?

[saintex2002]

p-perez, amigo mio,
Let's stop trying to explain why we think ATM is following the same disastrous road airlines have followed and why we think that's urgent to stop this global way of management and let's work in the creation of our own company of air traffic control services...everybody will earn time and money...a lot...even our fellows stick in command... ;)

[Cernicalo]

Cmon-pullup,

Hey hey hey!!!!. You shouldn't take it to the personal terrain!

No more to say, in my behalf. Those are your words, not my thoughts or acts.

I couldn't really care about what you are fed up with cernicalo. Clearly you are a guy who doesn't care about anything but yourself, and has no regard for environment, colleagues, passengers or the airlines who keep us all employed, and that is why i can't respect you or your attitude at all.

[winchman41]

Guys,

having loosely followed the topic on this and the ATC thread and admittedly not having read all posts I would like to share a view thoughts:

1. Given the reported shift in operational responsibilities away from Ops Room and Ops Room management structures is the full truth (I don't want to question it!), this way of managing an ATS organization is totally unacceptable in this age of "safety culture".

2. I think all of us should support the restoration of sound operational decison making - also in a hierarchical structure - in Spanish ATS again.

3. With the widespread support for the restoration of a functional ATS system based on widely accepted management principles, there shouldn't be a requirement anymore for Spanish ATCOs to let the aviation industry "feel the pain".

4. Controllers and Flight Dasta staff in Spain have my sympathy for suffering from a very drastic change in their working conditions, not the least in a dramatic cut in the take-home money. Having said that, however, I have to admit that I do feel that things were completely out of hand in previous years.

5. Having worked myself in Air Traffic Services for almost 41 years - 37 of them as area radar controller in busy Central European airspace - I would like to call upon my Spanish colleagues to fight for the safe operations of Spanish ATS offensively and publicly, but not see pilots or their employers, aka airlines, as their oppononents. You will need support if you want to succeed, you probably can't get anywhere by making everyone your adversary!

Good luck!

['I' in the sky]

Cernicaloa, p-perz, any fo you
I am deliberately leaving out any reference to the very few exceptionally good spanish controllers who were quoted to "earn" cerca 800 or 900k per year. But can one of you please start to try to explain why you think the "average" spanish controller at somewhere close to 300k per year is worth 4 times more than the average controller anywhere else in the world ?

I'm not interested in your internal bleatings, it's just a simple question.

[p_perez]

I am deliberately leaving out any reference to the very few exceptionally good spanish controllers who were quoted to "earn" cerca 800 or 900k per year. But can one of you please start to try to explain why you think the "average" spanish controller at somewhere close to 300k per year is worth 4 times more than the average controller anywhere else in the world ?


It´s is very easy to understand if you put aside any biased attitude:

1.- The "average 300k" (which our union USCA has denied repeatedly) comes from the the same Spanish minister that is using Spanish ATCO´s as scapegoats to avoid explaining why a company (AENA) that was profitable until 2006, grows a debt by 2010 (in only 5 years!!!) of 13.000 million € (= 13.000.000.000 €); just to compare, that´s almost half of the amount used by EU for the bailout of the economy of Greece. Where did all this money go?? Not to our fellow ATCO´s pockets!!

2.- When the false amount of 300k is used as an argument, comparing it to the salaries of other European ATCO´s, not a single time the hours worked per year are also mentioned. In EU, the average is 1350 hrs. a year, which also include training. We in Spain have been working an average over 1700+ a year (no traning included, 500+ hrs. of voluntary overtime). Overtime was AENA´s decision instead of training more ATCO´s, and of course it had to be better paid than basic/ordinary hrs., no?


I have repeated this information several (in fact, MANY!!!) times, but it has been ignored because I´m afraid there is no interest to leave aside the bias that sadly is present when information is manipulated with so much skill. It´s human nature!


Saludos!

[Daermon ATC]

As you might be aware of, spanish regulations concerning how many hours any ATCO might work have been changed several times this year.

The last indication mandates that no Atco should work more than 200 hours per month and 1670 per year. This figure was obtained not out of any safety studies but basically following the estimates of Aena's needs for the year.

However, they made a miscalculation since from the 15th of May onwards the government barred from frecuency any controller aged 57+. They have been able to recover their job as of last month but the rest of the staff had to do huge amounts of shifts (never mind those 200 hours/month) in order to cover their posts during the summer season.

As a consecuence of this many Atcos have (or will in the next weeks) get over their maximum legal limit. As of yesterday Santiago TACC has been the first to reduce their operational capabilities but other centres are expected to follow (Madrid ACC by mid-december I believe).

Since Aena is now developing "creative accountancy" for the hours worked during the year, they have stated that no atco is or will be over the maximum. I would not like to get into detail of what they claim (if anybody really feels they need it I will oblige, of course) but controllers will refuse to work over the legal maximum.

You will hear a lot till next years of those evil spanish atcos going yet again on a covert strike in order to get their monstrous privileges back... ignore that propaganda for the masses I trust you are better informed than that.

[4HolerPoler]

Was out of Madrid for London last week, established in the cruise at FL 360, had requested FL 380 (the airway UN858 is a nominated 'Even' FL airway). Saw on the TCAS that there was a target directly above us at FL380. Peered forward and upwards & there he was, a generally white-colored 737-800. Not 30 seconds later ATC called and cleared us to climb FL 380. My incredulous response that there was traffic above us a FL 380 was met with a stunned silence, followed shortly afterwards by a clearance to climb, non-standard (not that that was mentioned) to FL370 which we maintained for at least 25 minutes until just before the Bordeaux boundary and the traffic above diverged and we climbed 380.

Have requested direct often from Spanish controllers and got it a few times in the Madrid & Domingo sectors but Barcelona seem completely unwilling to offer any shortcuts.

The approach, tower & ground controllers are generally OK but, in my experience, the area controllers are pretty miserable, both in their demeanor and ability.

[NEWYEAR]

Spanish ATC, They are not able to stablish an approach sequence between for example Cessna 172 and Boeing 737 because these controllers are not familiar with the aeronautical atmosphere. It´s a pity.:yuk:

[ATCO1962]

4HolerPoler,

One of my pet gripes as a controller is receiving a call for another level from pilots in TCAS-mandatory airspace when they can see aircraft that could conflict with their climb/descent. It's especially nasty in the case where the call is made in a head-on scenario before the aircraft have actually passed. You might think, from your perspective, that it's an easy call for the ATCO, and 99 times out of a hundred, you would be right. However, these days, in our increasingly complex and busy airspace, we need you to help for that one time in a hundred, when we can't see the wood for the trees, to assist us in our job to keep you safe.

Seeing as you're a moderator, please don't ban me :\

[eagle21]

Have received direct routing in the last week from Madrid, Seville and BCN control.
Have heard a lot of Vueling and Spanair traffics usibg English within Spanish airspace too.
Skills need to be improved and we can help a lot by making assertive and positive inputs.

[p_perez]

Hello!

As you already know, in feb. this year, the Spanish Goverment increased by law the hours/year for Spanish ATCO's, from 1200 to 1670.

Due to AENA's mismanagement, this increase will not be enough to provide control service in all Spanish TWR's and ACC's. 1/3rd of ATCO's at Santiago TACC have already reached their maximum hrs/year and will not work anymore until january 1st (Santiago TACC provides enroute and app service in the NW of Spain and for LEST, LECO, LEVX and LPPR, some of them are alternative AD for transatlantic flights). The number of controllers that will reach their quota is increasing every day, and soon will follow controllers from LEGE, Madrid ACC, etc ...

To deal with this situation, AENA has decided to use "creative accounting" when calculating the worked hours in the year: rest-breaks (25% day and 33% nights), sick or maternity leaves, training hours, etc ... are left aside and don't add to the total hrs/year.

This way, our total hours of work a year suffers another artificial increase up to 2300 hrs/year.

This is unacceptable.

Tomorrow we are expecting yet another agression from the Spanish Goverment in the form of another decree-law (the 4th this year), imposing a new change in our T&C's, in this case leaving at AENA´s discretion how they sum our working hours.


More news tomorrow.


Saludos!

[autobrake3]

And the reaction is that Europe's finest have just called a strike until midnight tonight. Well done.

[deci]

https://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/PUBPORTAL/gateway/spec/PORTAL.14.1.1.79/gwt-detached-view.jsp?_portal_context=/gateway/spec/PORTAL.14.1.1.79:/PUBPORTAL/gateway/spec/PORTAL.14.1.1.79:1:1291334400000:0:1291398404650:&_view_id=AIM_DETACHED_DETAILS&_parameter_set=00117188


DUE TO UNCOORDINATED INDUSTRIAL ACTION IN SPAIN, MADRID ACC IS
CLOSED FROM 1700 - 2359. LEPA AIRPORT IS CLOSED UNTIL 2359 AND
GCCCACC IS CLOSED UNTIL 2359. LECB AND LECS ACC'S ARE WORKING
WITH REDUCED SECTORISATION.
AENA MANAGEMENT WILL GIVE AN UPDATE ON THE SITUATION AS SOON AS
IT IS AVAILABLE.
.
CFMU OPS/BRUSSELS

[zerotohero]

Well done guys,

I as a pilot am 100% behind you on this, its a step too far

Still think your well overpaid for what you do, but to have the goverment try this is just not on at all.

Go home put your feet up and relax.

[thebeast]

similar to the strike in Santiago on 1st December 'all of them calling in sick'

Found out half way to STG although luckily had the fuel to hold for an hour before it opened!...its the total disregard for other professionals and the general public that irks me. If your are going to strike it should be planned and those effected notified in advance. I think this is the main reason that we pilots have bu**er all sympathy for the Spannish ATC and their complaints.

The French whether justified or not at least strike in the correct manner!

[bobwi]

But you can't do this!! This is so selfish. If you want respect than this is not the way. Just think of all those people who are now stuck, some with children. I am sorry to say this but this realy is too much. You still have a responsibility as controlers and I have always tried to defend you guys and showed interest in your point of view, but on this one I can't...

[His dudeness]

Well done guys,

I as a pilot am 100% behind you on this, its a step too far

Still think your well overpaid for what you do, but to have the goverment try this is just not on at all.

Go home put your feet up and relax.

-1.
Whilst I agree that the ATCOs should strike for their rights and AENA have taken it too far, this sort of wild action is not serving them and their purpose.
What they effectively do is take thousands of holidaymakers hostage, especially the one on the Islands and putting a lot of financial stress on the airlines.
Shame on them.

[JToledo]

There were no sick leaves at LECG. It was the fulfillment of all of the working hours for the whole year. Are you expected to continue to go working indefenitely when they have compressed all of your working hours in the previous months, robbing you of your holiday leaves?

¿And now our government decrees that ATCos can continue working upwards of 2000 hours a year because of their own incompetence?

I love aviation, but I do no expect to live in the 20th century as a slave. Period.

[Nightstop]

This could all turn very nasty, but thanks to this headsup from Pprune I've managed to book what may be one of the last flights out of this present day Saigon........

[andrijander]

Animo JToledo, pperez y demas!

I think the goverment is finally gonna find out what happens when you play with fire.

Tools down, arms crossed. Too bad for all the collateral but where does the buck stop?

I just hope a reasonable solution can be found quickly, don't play it by their game book and don't forget that who dares wins.

Animo companyeros!

[samotnik]

Guys, keep in mind that Spanish ATCOs are not allowed to strike, as far as I know. It's similar to us in Poland - we cannot strike and our T&C are constantly deteriorating.

What would YOU do if you were pushed around by the management and could not take any form of a legal industrial action?

And please, do not use the 'poor women with infants freezing to death at airports' manipulation technique. If an industrial action would be totally harmless, it would be a nonsense. Nobody gets hurt, it's just a delay. A possibility of delay should be calculated into everybody's journey.

I'm pretty sure that Spanish ATCOs are aware that their Eldorado is over. They knew it was temporary from the very begining. It wasn't their 'achievement', they just took completely fair profit from results of a bad company management. They did not get anything for free, they worked hard for their money. Anybody who worked with ATC should be aware how distasterous fatigue is. It should be avoided and if it's impossible to avoid, a fair sum of overtime money should be paid.

But since last year Spanish ATCOs have been fighting not for their Eldorado to be back, but for their fundamental rights to rest, to plan their time off, to spend it with their families and to avoid fatigue. What would you, dear pilots, do if you were forced to fly 28 days a month and to be available to your employer at a short notice for all of your time off? Everything for a basic salary, of course. And if you had very limited possibilites to change the employer. Huh?

Remember - even if you think their job is bad (which is totally at your discretion), reducing their salaries won't make their service better. And with poor T&C it will just continue to get worse, because the most promising young ATCO-wannabies will choose another profession for life.

[bobwi]

No matter what your problem with Fomento is, to surprise so many people, according to CNN 250.000 people, and throw the airports in chaos, just before a long weekend is realy, I would say criminal.. No respect from me. At least you could have announced a strike. How about if people get hurt or die in this chaos, hart attack, traffic accident, etc, how can you sleep at night. How about all those people who will be away from their families now, people missing weddings, funerals, work. No where to go with your children...

You can't do this to people!!! :mad:

[bobwi]

you, dear pilots, do if you were forced to fly 28 days a month and to be available to your employer at a short notice for all of your time off?

I would never do this! I'd find another job. But I am not that selfish.

And yes, people should account with delay. But how can you take this chaos into account? Where can they go?? just to find a hotel now, will be a chalenge. With a normal delay things will be much more simple!

I have defended them for a long time now, looked into there side of the story, but now I don't!

[samotnik]

bobwi, of course, there will always be somebody who's able only to say something "censored".

Complain to Spanish goverment, not to Spanish ATCOs.

P.S. Of course, they should be responsible not only for heart attacks and traffic incidents ;-) but for volcanic ash, hunger in Ethiopia, and the Spanish Inquisition as well.

[Lone_Ranger]

You people are a disgrace, your pay is more than enough. Its nothing more than sheer greed for which you are prepared to cause misery to many families shame on you

[eagle21]

Attention everyone:

Military Controllers might take control of al ACC in Spain from 20:00Z.

This raises questions on their suitability to carry out civil ATC.

If you are flying in Spain in the next hours please take extra care.

[bobwi]

Samotnik, Ok, I may blaim the government too. I realise that they gafe you a hard time and that you are just trying to protect your rights. But you are the ones who just walked out, not the government. There is a limit and the controlers have broken it! I lost my respect, until yesterday I was still defending you, but I think this is very low. You obviously don't care about other people. I now couldn't care less if they fire you. Good luck with your new job in MacDonalds!

[GhostofCain]

JToledo, you do not want to live like a slave in the 20th century? I bet slaves didn't have your salary! :mad:

[McBruce]

It's about time really, I'm with the controllers on this one, If the pilot community had faced such changes with no right to strike then I would like to think we wouldn't accept it either.

[GhostofCain]

What Spanish Mike forget's to mention is that Spanish Controller's are allready some of the highest paid in Europe - I've heard salaries are in the range of 100,000 to 150,000 Euro's per year !! - more than British ATCO's earn !!

Just wish some of there controller's could speak proper English that's understandable and actually speak into the microphone on the headset rather than talking into a bucket...

The last sentence has made me laugh so loud that my wife came to ask what happened! :E :)

[McNulty]

These people are the absolute worst professionals i have ever encountered in any country, in any profession in my life time - their astronomical pay levels on top of their horrendous service really makes the mind boggle.

Of course whenever these controllers strike (French included), they never have the balls to come face to face with the people they are disrupting - you don't ever see picket lines of controllers in airport terminals, they are nice and cosy and hidden from reality in their little towers, leaving ground/boarding staff/cabin crew and to a lesser extent us pilots to deal with irate passengers.

Absolute disgrace, fire them all and privatise the whole thing.

[JohnnyEagle]

Attention everyone:

Military Controllers might take control of al ACC in Spain from 20:00Z.

This raises questions on their suitability to carry out civil ATC.

If you are flying in Spain in the next hours please take extra care.

This is false? are there any military controllers?

Those working conditions isn't worth it.. guess you have to drink every time you are off duty??

[oldchina]

Remember Ronald Reagan?

YouTube - Reagan responds to air traffic strike (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0zArF7Ke1o)

[keltic]

I have been on a plane for two hours waiting to leave from SCQ to MAD. The pilot kept us into the plane and informed us that he was contacting the control tower but nobody answered. The whole country is absolutely ashamed and shocked, and is asking for blood. Hundreds of thousands stranded like if the world was over.

I haven´t seen this in my entire life. I do feel quite proud of most of my countryfellows, which despite the caos are behaving in relatively calmed way. No more Iberia operations, at least until tomorrow at 11:00.

[NEWYEAR]

Collapse in the Spanish airspace due to air traffic controllers.
The Spanish Government about to authorize military controllers to take Control Centers.

Iberia has suspended all flights. Confirmed

[Zippy Monster]

The French whether justified or not at least strike in the correct manner!

CDG a couple of years ago; checked in for an early duty, no mention of any problems, no pertinent NOTAMS, everything hunky-dory; after getting to the aircraft, and mid-way through boarding passengers, we call for our clearance, to be told "you have a slot in two and a half hours", with no further information. Eventually it transpired that the tower had just gone on strike. Not exactly what I'd call the 'correct manner'!

[JohnnyEagle]

The Spanish Government about to authorize military controllers to take Control Centers.

source/link?

[fireflybob]

1973: Mid-air collision kills 68 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/5/newsid_4202000/4202039.stm)

Members of the French Civilian Air Controllers Association (SNCTA), have been on strike illegally since 20 February to gain improved pension benefits and obtain the right to strike which was outlawed for air traffic controllers in 1964.

Military air traffic controllers have been operating France's air control system since 26 February.

[Coto]

Question to the spanish ATCo's:

Are the spanish military ATCo's able to cope with the civil operation? No training or preparation needed?

[Old_Fokker]

Lets make something clear first: this is not a simple strike: this is 99% of Spanish ATC simply not showing up for work or abandoning their shifts with a lame excuse that they are not feeling well. And all at the same time at the beginning of a 4-day Spanish holiday.

What a coincidence!

Spanish newspaper El Periodico, in its online (http://www.elperiodico.com/es/noticias/sociedad/20101203/los-controladores-enfermos-reunen-hotel-madrid/609405.shtml) edition, informs that about a hundred ATC workers of the Madrid area are currently meeting in a hotel near Barajas Airport, in a conference-room which had previously been reserved. That sounds like a premeditated and coordinated action to me.

That said, in previous months the Spanish ATC association had managed to express their views and concerns to the general public which, after all, usually suffers from their strikes. Informing the general public of their cause and explaining the need for their actions was a good thing, it actually brought a solution to their concerns a lot closer. I am the first to defend the right to strike, whether I agree with the workers' demands or not.

But what is happening right now in Spain, with 99% of Spanish airports closed due to a complete absence off ALL ATC personnel, the Spanish government urgently working to get ATC under military control and, last but certainly not least, 250,000+ stranded passengers and/or passengers who can forget about their 4-day holiday and lose lots of money as of result of that, is completely unacceptable, unjustified and very likely completely illegal.

The right to strike is undeniable; the right to leave your job over bogus reasons just to annoy as many people as possible does not exist and could perhaps even be considered a criminal act.

Well done spanish ATC; when it comes to improving your working conditions, you've just dug your own grave!

[transilvana]

There are only 27 ATC military controllers in Spain able to cope with that...make the numbers

[atco-matic]

Translation from www.aena.es (spanish airports)

Air traffic controllers en masse leave their jobs and disrupt air traffic in Spain

Posted on Friday, December 3, 2010 at 19:00

Due to massive neglect by air traffic controllers of their jobs, air traffic in Spain has been interrupted. Aena recommends that all passengers who do not go to airports and contact their airlines. We are unable to give more information because the restoration of service depends on the will of the air traffic controllers.

Also on this page: URGENT - Spanish airspace closed as controllers walk out (More soon) | Canaries News (http://www.canariesnews.com/2010/12/03/urgent-spanish-airspace-closed-as-controllers-walk-out-more-soon/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook)

Update 03/12/2010 – 21:30
Military ‘ready’ to take control of the airports
The Military are now ready to take control of the air traffic control towers in Spain to try and end the chaos in Spains airspace, although they hoping the current AENA controllers will return to their places of work

[NEWYEAR]

Be carefull, you know....SPAIN IN EMERGENCY

[JToledo]

Please forget everything you might have heard about sallaries. Sallaries were the first thing to go many months ago, and it is not what we are fighting for.

If you must know as an experienced approach controller at LECB I made 4300 EUR last month. Our last colleagues to join are making 2300 eur.

I love this job and if it was only an issue of money I'd consider myself happy. But it's not. We've gone from 1200 to upwards of 2000 hours. Management has decided unilaterally to increase traffic loads with absolutely no safety studies. We are enduring monthly rosters of 200 hours. When some of us folded to pressure (18 people had already been medically evacuated when I last asked in august) the goverment forced the medical inspection to turn down sick leaves. Colleagues of my have been working while still on anxiety medication, or decided to drop the treatment ot of fear of government retaliation.

Just culture has been completely obliterated, and recordings have been used arbitrarily to attack employees. We have been robbed of our holidays, and sick leaves have gone unpaid. They are losing trial after trial because the company is denying basic rights (leaves to attend small children). Even after having lost these trials the continue the practice (hopefully we will end up having an obvious case of mobbing)

With today's decree it is the fourth time this year that legislation has been passed specifically to change our terms and conditions, collective negotiation be damned.

And to top it all off to this day we are to be available 24/365 to work in the company deems it necessary.

So yes. I _DO_ claim slavery when all the basic rights that had been painfully gained through the 20th centry haven been swiftly dragged from under our feet, all in the name of economic interest and a complete disregard of operational safety.

So please don't bring back the issue of money. Money has not been an issue for a long time now. It's all about basic rights, our dignity and the safety of operations. I don't think I would have to stress that the people that are RIGHT NOW sending untrained military personnel to take control of the operation are not thinking too much about safety.

With all my regards,
Juan Toledo

[NEWYEAR]

He is going to talk to the country.

[toro11]

With all my respects to the controllers.

As an airline captain I have to say that we have been suffering for whatever reason this situation for more than a year now. The extorsion to Airlines is enormous and one day we could talk about the influence of ATC in the fatigue of crews this summer. In my airline we were obligued to review lost communications procedures.

Tired of holdings after 6 hours flights, 2 hours slots, maintain 160 kts from 50 miles out of the field bla bla bla,

And on top of that today at 5pm before an bank holiday weekend 90% of ATC staff get ill, it is absolutely unaceptable

We are all responsible for our decisions and you should face the consequences of some attitudes

To be honest I wouldn´t like to be on your skin

[Coto]

All this opinions against spanish ATCo's. If your term and conditions were reduced like that, I really would like to see your reaction.

Our government in Portugal is doing the same to everybody. Reducing terms and conditions unilaterally. Do you guys think you can accept that? That's what the spanish government is doing.....

We all know the state at which the PIIGS countries are, is due to the corruption and bad management of the same politicians that are doing this state of the art measures to fight the crisis. Someone as to fight this politicians.

Spanish ATCo's: I am with you!(and my holidays are being affected by you, I have a flight tomorrow MAD-JFK)

[Old_Fokker]

That sounds all very nice and, above all, very convincing, Juan Toledo, but the fact of the matter is that your colleagues (and very likely yourself as well) abandoned your job today, illegally.

If I do that I get fired and that is the case for 99% of us who work for a boss. It sucks but that's life.

If your work has become so unsafe for passengers as you claim, then there are plenty of (international) organizations to denounce that. Have you done so? What have these organizations ruled about the issue?

If your work basically comes down to slavery, as you claim, then there are plenty of Spanish and European legal steps which you could have taken. Have you done so?

Even if you are right about all your claims, todays' event is totally disproportionate and irresponsible.

[TBSC]

@JToledo:

If you fight for your dignity then you should show some dignity, not like this :mad: today.

[Mir]

Just reading this thread and wondering, if us pilots had had the ba**s to organize something like this, before our terms and conditions went to hell, would have made a difference...

It appears a lot of people (don't really know how I feel personally) are against this very drastic action taken by the Spanish ATC today, but how many of you, have also been complaining about our work conditions the last years, without really having done anything about it (myself being one)???

[Bolli]

does this mean that Spain has actually gone under military atc control? Or are you making uneducated assumptions?

[Northerner]

I don't know about emergency but the UK news is reporting that the military are taking over on instruction from the government following the sickness which struck all the controllers in Spain at 1700...
Very interesting situation...
Cheers,
northerner

"keep smiling... It makes people wonder what you're up to..."

[Bolli]

good point
BBC News - Spain's military takes over air traffic control (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11913878)

[paidworker]

JToledo, expect no sympathy or understanding from pilots..as a group of people they do not comprehend solidarity , standing up for their rights and in increasing numbers actually getting paid to do their job. Old_fokker , the fact is that the King of Spain ( who is supposed not to be involved in state matters like this ) signed a decree saying that it is illegal for atc to go on strike. My business and livelyhood is directly effected by this action but I understand why it is being done and they have my support. So long as state sponsored television and newspapers continue to print the " party line " I do accept it is very hard for people to see what is really happening.. but the timing of this action is random and coincided by no coincidence with this mornings announcement that the Spanish government is to begin to sell the airport authority.

[Bolli]

The military have now stepped in: BBC News - Spain's military takes over air traffic control (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11913878)

Anybody know how long there will be disruption to Spanish airspace?
Or whether there's enough military controllers?

[Isaid180]

The Government has instructed the Military Authorities to take control of all Spanish airspace with immediate effect. They will be in charge of the whole operation and civil controllers have been urged to return to work under orders from the Ministry of Defence under decree law which was approved earlier on today....
who knows where this is going...:rolleyes:

[chin]

@Juan Toledo

as one of your customer, I got mad about the inconveniency. Thinking for more then two seconds, I honestly have to tell you, that you did the only right thing.
If we pilots would have done something like this ten years ago, nowbody hade to complain about pay to fly, fatigue and the whole staff.

I realy admire your action.


P.S be aware, in the upcoming discussens you always will be accused of taking hostages (pooor brave hearts) during the peak hours and hollyday season. But thats the only moment, where it realy make sense to lean out of the window.

All the best

[paidworker]

Bolli two months ago the spanish military commanders were on television saying they were not qualified to do the job.. that apart from their level of english. Friend of mine down here is an english teacher and international house just put out the word today of a big short notice contract to all teachers willing to teach english in the air force academy.

[Isaid180]

RTVE and the press are reporting that some civil controllers are returning to work all over the country. The Prime Minister Mr Z has given orders to the Ministry of Defence to take control of all Spanish airspace with immediate effect. The military authorities will assume responsibility of all operational decisions regarding the provision of air traffic service in Spain and civil controllers have been instructed to return to work under orders from the Ministry of Defence. (or else...)
Spanish Controllers are being prosecuted in Madrid for criminal offences against the general public facing potential severe consequences.
...
No official announcement yet as to when normal operation is expected to be ressumed but the government are expected to give an update at 02:00.
... quite surreal.

[zerotohero]

Just watching the news in Madrid, not that I understand spanish all that well if at all, but its messed up out there, shortage of hotels and bus's etc

It really has had a massive impact on Madrid and the rest of spain, wonder how much this will cost the spanish goverment in lost revenue?

Glad I am on my days off! back to the beer and pringles :hmm:

p.s. think the ATCO's were just on the TV, looked like they were gonna get mobbed! lol

Sack them and start again I recon.
And I agree with the strike,,, just dont agree how crap they are in general.

[Blue5]

Well, how will insurance companies react? Will they insure flights under these conditions? I mean, if the military takes over and the military operates now ATC in Spain, it will be an increased threat of security standards.

Such insurance doesnt only cover the airplane but also the passengers. So is the insurance still valid or will the insurance fee be increased, or just no insurance when flying over Spanish military controlled FIR?

Any ideas?

[finfly1]

It was not until after Reagan fired scores or hundreds of US controllers that I first got any idea of just how many military controllers there were working in the country.

Vivid memory of entering a control tower cab to see an Airforce sergeant telling a student pilot: "If you do not keep your next downwind closer to the field, your touch & gos will be terminated".

[Old_Fokker]

You'd have a point Mir, if it weren't for the fact that Spanish ATC have had some extremely attractive working conditions over the past years. Twelve hundred working hours max per year and anything above that had to be paid via extra-hours. Annual salaries starting at € 170,000 could easily be increased to € 400,000 per year. Every single time the government which just happened to be in charge tried to change those conditions, they'd go on strike.

"Of 2,300 controllers, ten were paid between €810,000 (£725,000) and €900,000 last year. A further 226 were paid between €450,000 and €540,000 and 701 were paid between €270,000 and €360,000." [Source (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6991798.ece)]

Then no one heard them complain about workload nor passenger safety.

[411A]

Likely no effect, as Sapin is not a war zone.
Yet:\

[paidworker]

True Old Fokker, but as you say that was then and this is now. 2000 hours per year as an english teacher in Madrid is 4166 euros per month in Madrid before basic benefits. . As Jtoledo says though those figures no longer are the real issue , as for Zapaterro and his bunch of a** clowns they are earning a lot more than their predecessors were ten years ago. People keep pointing at the "money" but its not the issue. Looking into the eyes of a spanish controller coming off shift is almost frightening , red eyed , bleary , not all there because they are fatigued and fed up.