BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions

[Diplome]

baggersup:

Excellent post..lol.

Unite is getting absolutely desperate...and you just know that BA have a plan in place, and it may be a tad painful for those few left on strike.

[Ancient Observer]

IMHO, BA need an action plan
1. to change most of the managers involved, (I know, Diplome, I've said this too often - but the current lot appear to be still asking bassa for permission to serve their customers. Madness).
2. to remove any CSD who is unable/unwilling to demonstrate that their actual behaviour, (not words, and not an interview) has been fully supportive of BAs customers
3. to remove the current CSD job completely, and to replace it with a proper Customer Service Supervisor role. Recruit for this new job from the best of the current total BA CC population - but only allow 49% of the new CSS to be from BA, with 51% recruited from Tesco, John Lewis and etc.
4. Jfdi with respect to New Fleet, and insist that the folk in BA who actually do the recruitment to NF are their brightest and best. Don't let the current lot recruit in their own image.
For induction and early training - Use the best of PPF and PPF2 from all those years ago.
5. Give notice - say, 6 months, that all the current T & C are going to be changed. Get rid of all the T & C that cause the many and varied "Spanish" practices and spurious reasons for payment. (Dodgy lightbulbs in LH crew rest places, 2 + hours breaks for SH etc). Make all CC work like they do at EZY.
Implement new pay system no matter what bassa say.
6. The Leadership team need to paint a compelling vision of the "New BA" that good current staff and all future staff can imagine themselves in to. Give some hope and aspiration to a workforce that wants more positive meaning from its workplace. Listenning to Tira, JSL, and some of the VCC on the other thread - the raw material is in BA, but I'm not sure that it's being nurtured and fed properly!
7. Hire some much better managers, from well outside Aviation. The inspirational types are available on the market place, but Aviation is not the sector to find them in.
8. Do some real customer service surveys, that the new CSS cannot influence. Make them cheap and cheerful, but accurate. BT do this very well, and even Virgin do try to get real feedback.
9. Employ, via an agency, (not BA staff) some real "Mystery flyers" who will fully report on BA's flying experience for customers, and whose reports really impact managers' salaries.
10. Insist that Captains fully own the total in-flight experience of customers.
11. Publish (anonymised) pay of all BA CC who earn in gross terms a penny over the National average wage. (Currently c £25,000).
12. Pay expenses as incurred. Get rid of the rich, and corrupting influence of the NRT etc golden wheelbarrows.
....................

We,, that's a start................

[Diplome]

Ancient Observer:

Excellent post...my compliments.

There are a few details I could debate but much to be recommended.

[Diplome]

Baggersup:

Of course the changes are "radical"...so "radical" that Unite agreed to the same conditions for their members at Gatwick. :)

You have to just love some of this stuff.

[Neptunus Rex]

Could it be that Unite is deliberately giving Bassa more rope? Secretly, Unite hoping that the next ballot will not get a majority in favour of IA. They can then wash their hands of their tiresome offspring, leaving Bassa to stew in its own juice.

[LD12986]

To put matters very bluntly, if there is another ballot and CC vote in favour of a strike then frankly they deserve all they get. If the majority of CC cannot now see that they are being led of a cliff by a bunch of self-serving hot-heads at BASSA then there really is no hope.

[RTR]

I am at a loss to understand what Woodley thinks he is doing! Perplexed in fact. His use of words like bullying, referring to WW, is ridiculous. Each utterance is puerile and simply makes himself look a fool. It is Unite who is the bully here, with their mates from BASSA. Woodley is showing all the signs of his tactics when he was the main irritant in the car industry. He was a lousy negotiator then and a worse one now.

To refer to pilots as "scabs" because they are vcc's is indicative of man who has a bag o' nails but lost the hammer. He and Simpson have no class and no real idea what they want to say. I don't think they even know what they ARE saying. Pilots and engineers, and many others ready to support the company, are the cream of BA - and so too are VERY MANY of the cc. But, with BASSA still beating people around the head and resorting to childish taunts only turns the remains of a supporting public against them. How clever is that? How clever is their style of picketing when they behave like children at a tea party.

Cabin Crew are decent hard working people who love their job and their company. Yet here we have DH and LM imposing their kind of evil will on decent girls and boys for their own ends. Saying NO to every kind of negotiation is plain stupid - unless of course it benefits the militants.

The threat of summer strikes is probably a union breaker. How Woodley can think otherwise shows his mentality. The cc will not be able to sustain continued IA and must have a job that brings in good money - they have that. So when the cruel realisation of the consequences hit home, they will have to wonder what BASSA means anymore.

I agree, that WW has a handful of cards to play. And think on this if you will. He has the skills of a great many legal eagles, managers and operations people at his side who can curtail any further attempts by BASSA and UNITE to destroy BA.

[call100]

You must be a striker/sympathiser if you did not understand the comparison !

Tesco, UK largest retailer with 4000 plus outlets and FY 2009 profits, 3bn, greater than BA.s share capitalisation, (2.7Bn today) a chunk of the drop in that valuation due to striker's (in)action.

Aldi, 400 UK outlets, profit not known but probably WAY less than Tesco. Aldi is a well run business filling a niche market BUT not in the same league as Tesco.

Chav city for Tesco, its financial performance suggests otherwise !
I am not a sympathiser nor against. If a dispute does not involve my company or livelihood, then I cannot get wound up over it like some. . I had a flight affected but it was a minor inconvenience at the time......
The comparison in your first post had nothing to do with the profits of either company. You inferred that Aldi may employ them Tesco not......Both make profits from the Chav's who shop in them they are not particular where they get money from......Aldi pay their staff more than Tesco pay theirs......I still maintain that the view of the strike is dependent on ones perception of where one sits in society.
A lot of posts on here are very 'Angry from Wells' or 'Disgusted of Surrey' in the form they take....
All very interesting.:)

[Boxkite Montgolfier]

I think we are hearing the the final squawkings of the dead parrot brigade.

Todays solution- a further ballot- confirms Messrs Woodley and Simpson as full time candidates for Bedlam.

Fortunately a clear majority of cabin crew are now voting with their feet, having concluded that their Unite/Bassa leadership has finally revealed its total inadequacy.

It defies belief that such individuals, including the now absent McCluskey, could have persuaded so many, to such an ill defined, unjustified cause.

[just an observer]

It's difficult to see who would vote yes to another strike. Some CC have presumably broken the strike out of conviction, some to save staff travel, some because they can't afford it anymore, and some see the writing on the wall - the cause is lost, why lose even more money. It wouldn't be logical for any of those to vote in favour of another strike.

Unless there is another vote for a strike to 'send a message' and hope it helps their colleagues who have lost staff travel, but don't actually intend to strike, and surely they've learnt that lesson!

That just leaves currently striking crew. I don't think they are in the majority!

In any event, the law seems to be written to stop a strike going on and on just by reballoting, is there not a clause about any extension strike ballot not being about the same items?

[Lou Scannon]

The one question that should be asked by the BASSA loyalists before they vote again is whether any of the BASSA leadership have actually risked striking and are now without staff travel.

This has been asked many times on this forum without any answer.

In the light of any words to the contrary we can assume that none of their leadership have been on strike, lost any pay or lost their staff travel.

Being long term sick is not a decent excuse. They could sign themselves off for a day, go on strike and establish their right to lead. No flying involved...just a demonstration of their integrity.

It has all been left to the gullible little bunny rabbits to do their dirty work!

...and now they want you all to do it again!

[RTR]

Being long term sick is not a decent excuse.

I seem to recall that BA stated from the word go that those calling in sick would be deemed to be on strike.

[Oneye]

I refer you good people to post 4292 on the above indicated forum. The author is Eddy. Seems Eddy has become a victim of those he has erstwhile supported, but at the same time employed a moderate tone. To my mind this sums up the intellect, or lack of, of those jostling for position at the very edge of this abyss. Surely, common sense must prevail and steps are taken to rid this company of this misbegotten rabble, constantly seeking something for nothing. The public face of this gathering of miscreants, does not exactly instil confidence. On the other hand, the company has not exactly excelled itself in dealig with this situation, given the contstraints that they are obliged by law to operate within.

James.

[BAAlltheway]

Whilst it is obvious to everyone (apart from UNITE/BASSA) that their goose is cooked, and that they have little support, and members are leaving in droves, it has the unfortunate effect that the only people left to vote in any new ballot, are the permanently delusional/terminally misled, who are also the ones likely to still vote "yes".

The more crew see the light and leave the union, the easier it gets for BASSA to get a mandate to continue their self destruction.


Crazy crazy world..:(

[dubh12000]

Eddy should make an issue of this bullying....its pure behind the school bikeshed nonsense at this stage.

[R Knee]

Eddy With respect, I am going to take a bit of a sabbatical from this thread for a while.

Hope you read this forum as well...

Thanks for your comments Eddy. I've not always agreed with you but your comments have always been worth reading, and it's been interesting to see your open-mindedness and questioning views. I look forward to reading your input, in hopefully the not too distant future.

[johnoWhiskyX]

What has happened to Eddy or more accurately what we percieve has happened to Eddy is precisely why i find Bassa's/Unites claims of intimidation and bullying so full of crap. Has anyone EVER heard of people choosing to work intimidating strikers?
No..It is allways the other way around.

Bassa/Unite strikers must have dual personalities, one the hard nosed bullying striker, the other the little fluffy bunny rabbit with the oh so sensetive nature.

I hope for the sake of BA that any crap from CC returning is reported back to BA. Sorry to all the working CC, but if im traveling and experience snotty, offhand treatment i am likely to assume they are returning militants with their nose out of joint.
Thankfully apart from the rare occasion BA's CC have allways been exemplary.

[seat 13a]

Now that's what I call service

BACF really delivering tonight... Late flight EDI to LCY on new 190 returned to gate twice with tech trouble. No BA alternatives - LGW gone, LHR on strike. But decision taken v quickly to "borrow" another 190 parked at next gate - all pax and luggage switched in not much more than an hour. Good end to the bank holiday for all of us...

Thanks to all ground staff and Captan Richard Humphries and his crew who really turned it around - Cityflyer showing LHR crew what service really means..

And they even apologised for having no ice...!


:ok:

[Airclues]

BA publishes the percentage of flights operating, but it would be interesting to know the percentage of RPK's (revenue passenger km) achieved.

Looking at yesterdays flights, many of the longhaul destinations had a 100% operation (with passengers) compared to the pre-strike schedule. Some examples are; New York (6/6), Los Angeles (3/3), Sydney (2/2), San Francisco (2/2). This also applied to many of the longer European destinations such as Rome (6/6) and Nice (6/6).

In contrast many of the shorter routes had high cancellation rates such as Manchester (0/8), Glasgow (1/9), and Edinburgh (2/11).

By my calculations (I'm bored, waiting for new carpets to arrive), BA flew over 90% of scheduled RPK's ex LHR yesterday (LGW and LCY 100%).

Dave

[Diplome]

Airclues:

Interesting post...and good luck with the carpet.

[button44]

I see on the other thread someone has posted a link to a Mirror story from "Jayne" a CC member, which in part reads.....
'Jayne knows she's a national hate figure. Walking down the street in her blue uniform, the air stewardess faces a barrage of abuse and vile hand gestures.
Her British Airways colleagues have been spat at in the face by irate passengers during their industrial action.'
Do they really think we will believe this rubbish.....if she's on strike, why is she wearing her uniform, the CC strikers I've seen on TV appear in fancy dress and pants with WW's face on them.
She also claims that many crew are on drugs for one reason or another and are suicidal......hopefully the whole sad saga is untrue. If true, there are safety issues and if not, I'd rather not fly with someone that delusional!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif

[Snas]

I see on the other thread someone has posted a link to a Mirror story from "Jayne" a CC member,

Of all the crap that I have read in the press about this dispute that article is the hands down winner, complete tosh from start to end, not a single point within it worth a salt.

"most" cc are on drugs of one sort or another she says, "no sleep for a week" - honestly, it's just bull, start to end....!!

I'm off now to locate an e-mail address for the lazy hack that printed it...

[jethrobee]

I find it quite worrying and I think a massive Bassa own goal with the Jayne story in the Mirror.

Bassa campaigned about safety, and used this as a way to scare people about the ability of the VCC that are helping people keep flying. My question would be are we really safer it it is a real situation where cc are drugged up on the planes........

If you can't cope with the stress of the job - find something less stressful, surely health comes before anything!

This dispute is damaging the airline more and more by the day!

[Snas]

I think a massive Bassa own goal with the Jayne story in the Mirror.

I see your point but I think this trash reflects very badly on all cabin crew from all airlines. The totally uninformed will read this and think no smoke without fire etc leaving a view of the job, that is incorrect on so many levels.

Reporting of the worst kind in my view that gives rise to recieved wisdom akin to the belief that all long distance road-train drivers in Oz are on speed..!

Am I right in thinking this is only appearing in the on-line version and not in the actual rag itself?

[Diplome]

When reading the "Jayne" saga its important to remember that we have an example of BASSA using this sort of ploy in recent history.

I do believe that Channel 4 interviewed a Cabin Crew member who declined to give his name. This individual spoke of the bullying that was occurring and the abusive nature of BA towards its Cabin Crew.

That individual ended up being identified as none other than Duncan Holley, who rarely worked and was a BASSA Sec. with a personal financial interest in the union membership's dues structure.

Jayne could be Liz Malone for all we know.

[Dawdler]

I see (today) that the BASSA website claims 9926 members, this from 10800 in November and 10434 in late January. Could it be that at least some of the members are realising that the agenda the the union is pursuing is one to which they no longer wish to subscribe?

[Ancient Observer]

An interesting point from the other place. Eddy made the point once in an aside, but did not return to it.........

If the largest part of the strikers are the on-board "supervisors" known in BA as CSDs and pursers, then IF they are all dismissed, (for whatever reason, and by whatever route) there might well be LOTS of vacancies and "promotions" for the non-strikers.
(As I've said in an earlier post, these jobs need to be changed radically) - but if BA do not change them, then the non-strikers now have a strong interest in 2 things...........
1. Not giving back the seniority for ST.............that "jumps" the non-strikers over the strikers in their ability to get cheap tickets and board the planes.
2. Getting the senior strikers sacked. Lots of promotions possible.

Ah, the delights of comradeship.

[R Knee]

Maybe you're too young to remember the Jane strip cartoon in the Daily Mirror .... I use the word Strip advisedly.... a lovely (and often undressed) character. Wasn't Garth her boyfriend and was her dog called Toto? She was certainly an icon of WWII but if I remember correctly met her demise in the 70s (I await correction).

Maybe Jayne rekindles memories in the dyslexic minds of the Mirror's editors? She certainly appears to be a fictional character.

RK

edit - gender

[Sygyzy]

From the reports on the 'other' thread this whole strike business seems to be dying on it's feet. From about 6 reports an hour we're down to almost that number per day. Everyone has just lost interest. It's completely run out of steam-although BFC/Bassa/Unite will probalby tell you there's still plenty of other types of beer!

The Americans have a neat adage. "If you're not part of the solution-consider-are you part of the problem". But then DH/DS/TW have never claimed to be anything but (dyed in the wool) Englishmen.

I accept that the job of cabin attendant can be stressful at times-tell me a well paid job that isn't. Show me a business where the managment are always treated as the new best friend. They're there to manage and make a profit, not win the popularity constest. But if they do make a profit and jobs are more secure surely that's win/win.

From what I've seen too many BA management types over far too long have meekly rolled over when the CC union has barked, which is why this stink has visited them now. Fortunately Willie doesn't seem diposed to roll over for Unite this time. No-one has EVER stood up to them before and not only do they not like it but they've never experienced it from BA. The term 'a buggers muddle' springs to mind.

Coffee has a strong smell and it should be wafting Unite/Bassa's way by now-if they're even awake yet. Judging by the threads and the media coverage this is now a non-news story. Unless the unions earnestly try to salvage something from this Willie will have their collective heads sooner rather than later. They deserve nothing more.

S

[ExXB]

So who allegedly hacked into the BA advert in the LHR News to show a boarding pass accessible by iPhone with a picture of Osama Bin L holding up a boarding pass with seat 7C, with a frequent flyer number printed on the pass---for a trip to Washington?

The news story suggests it might have been a disgruntled employee resulting from the BA dispute. If so, one suspects their future address might be The Scrubs. People tend not to find terrorism jokes funny for some odd reason. :ouch:

If the story in the news can be believed, it has already attracted the anti-terrorism authorities' interest, simply due to the subject matter.

And BA is investigating to see who may have done the hacking deed to create the photo and fake boarding pass photo.

Doubt the authorities will find it amusing.....BA either.

Please tell us this didn't occur. That nobody was THIS dumb. Another wrong news story please?

Do you mean this (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1283036/BA-advert-lists-Osama-Bin-Laden-frequent-flyer-boards-flight-class-seat.html) from the Daily Mail?

Typical media hype. If you look at the boarding card you might notice.

It isn't a boarding card to Washington, as mentioned in the article. In fact it doesn't mention an origin or destination.
It isn't a BA frequent flyer number - It starts with NW (perhaps a now-defunct airline?) and has 10 digits. BA's don't have letters and are eight digits.
It isn't a BA ticket number (which start with 125).
It isn't a bar code. It a series of identical parallel lines.
It isn't a security risk. No way this would get by a human, no way this could be scanned.
It doesn't look like how an iPhone is going to display a boarding card. It looks like somebody cut a piece of paper and pasted in on the screen.

It is an effort to sell more newspapers ...

[Der absolute Hammer]

Ah yes: Jane of the Mirror with the dog Fritz.
Madly in love with her and still somewhere in the Schloss,I have the collection, 'Jane at War' printed on real shaggy paper so that it could be used for the toilet after reading.
Here is a link which you will appreciate.

Racy Cartoons of the WW II Years: "Jane" (http://www.skylighters.org/jane/)

Toto was the name of the dog of Dorothy in the Frank Baum Oz books. There were several more then just The Wizard of Oz-including one about the deadly desert and the goblin king which always got me to think of the 8th army and Montgomery -not that he looked much like a goblin, more like a lanky old troll.


Speaking of the old trolls, I just wanted to put my piece in here about Eddy - not an old troll I swiftly say- I would like to say that it is horrific if he is bullied out of this forum. Since the days of Tom Brown, the British hasve always said that they were against such things. It is a big shame that BASSA now makes use of the word so easily while at the same time - apparently-makes such hypocritical use of the action itself. Those are the old trolls-the bullys. You can have bisexual trolls also-or do I mean trolls of both sexes?

[Chuchinchow]

As an aside, is the diminutive version of "troll" a trolley?







[I'll get my life jacket]

[Hartington]

http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/409697-british-airways-vs-bassa-airline-staff-only-218.html#post5728559 is a link to todays BASSA missive and it confuses me. It refers to an Italian striker who lives on the West Coast and paid full fare "to come to work" and then of a Stornaway based striker and her travel to work.

If you're on strike surely you don't come to work. What am I missing?

[just an observer]

They have to work between strike days, presumably. Or they end up like DH, absent without leave.

[Hartington]

Yes, of course. Thank you.

[johnoWhiskyX]

I wish there could be a burden of proof on BASSA to back up their claims of heroic deeds by strikers.

The Stornoway lass..11 hours traveling to work..and i presume the same going back!
Now Living in Stornoway was her life choice. but try explaining that to any normal person.."oh i work in london and travel from Stornoway..its sooo unfair"

Italian living on west coast USA working in London?..why live in USA if you are italian..whats wrong with living in England?

Sorry but this may upset some working crew as well, live in the real world ther is commuting..and then there's taking the michael..or should i say Duncan.

[wiggy]

Sceptical, Moi.....I'm waiting for the first BASSA missive detailing how hard it was for their off planet supporters to get in from Mars.........:ugh: :ugh:

[JackMcHammocklashing]

Sorry just a pax, so figures just plucked as a thought! maybe it is serve 45 now and ba want fifty?
Though I take it you get my gist

It is when BA like private sector want sixty instead of 45, that is when action must be taken

My last flight from Dubai the CC were HARDLY overworked (unless things go on behind the scenes that pax do not see, I mean all the meal trays are already placed in the cabinets after collection I do not think they spend the next hour between serving washing them up) What do they do? serve collect then go missing for an hour?

Jack McH

[JackMcHammocklashing]

You need to check what you suggest

Tesco pay employies, a wage, and as such they pay NI contributions

ALDI and LIDL staff are self employed with NO holiday pay,no sickness benefit and pay their own NI and tax

So when you see the adverts for staff Tesco £6.05 ph it is very good compared to Aldi/Lidl £8.20ph

Oh and if you do the Maths thats £11640 salary per year and NO PERKS, Plus a lot of non stop hard work,

As an aside as of today all the strikers now have no entitlement to NTC paying towards their childcare costs, and will now have to pay it all back to HMRC

Jack McH

[Dawdler]

My grandson has a part-time job at Aldi and he is most definitely "on the books".

You need to check what you suggest

[Litebulbs]

I am on the naughty step on the other thread, so I thought I would have a go here.

What do you think of this speech?

Tony Woodley?s speech (http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/unite_policy_conference_2010/tony_woodley’s_speech.aspx)

I am behind it 75% comrades

[Snas]

Litebulbs, you lasted longer than I thought you would in there :ok:

As for Unite and the speach, the ideology I agree with, but I fear a union so large has/will become a business/corporation no better than those it should be representing the employees of/from.

Its hard to hear Simpson talk about fat cat bosses when you look at his own package for example.

I'll give it 60% agreement, IF they stick to the principles.

---To add, the way they have allowed BASSA to run amoke for example is far from good.

[fincastle84]

For those who don't have the stomach for reading Woodley's rant at the Unite conference I've copied the section relevant to BA. Have your sick bags ready!


Let me also say a word about the British Airways dispute. I will try to keep my remarks on this to 140 characters, so Derek can tweet it in its entirety! But seriously - this has been a long and bitter dispute – and it is not over yet. It has caused inconvenience to the public, which we can only regret.
But I want to make clear one thing which I do not regret: That is about standing shoulder to shoulder with decent, brave men and women fighting for their right to be treated like the loyal professionals they are. I have done my share of strikes. When I look back I can’t defend all of them.
Like the time we all took a vote to call a strike at a mass meeting in the car park, with the factory on fire before our eyes. But this is a dispute which no self-respecting fighting back trade union could have avoided.
It is a dispute which can be summed up in a word: Bullying.

Bullying that imposes radical changes on our members without agreement
Bullying that has seen other BA employees incited against cabin crew with, to their lasting shame, the collusion of BALPA and scab pilots
Bullying that has meant more than 50 of our brothers and sisters suspended or sacked for the crime of sending a text or posting a remark on Facebook
Bullying that forbids them from talking about their own dispute in public
Bullying that victimises trade unionists by branding them second-class employees for life through the discriminatory use of travel concessionsWell there is only one thing to do with bullies – that is stand up to them until they learn some manners. And we have built a union that is strong enough and proud enough to do that even to a business the size of British Airways.
Some opportunists may call that adventurism or phoney militancy. I call it basic self-respect, and anyone not prepared to stand up for our members in struggle is not fit to lead this great union
So let me say two things from this rostrum today.
The first is to Willie Walsh.
Willie, we all know there is a deal to be done at British Airways. One that recognises the real commercial needs and problems of your company as well as our members’ legitimate interests. Unite is ready to do that deal. But we are not, and never will, be prepared to see our members and our union humiliated, victimised and reduced to ruins, as you seem to want - NEVER
My second message is to all our cabin crew members. Your union is proud of you. You have stood up not just for yourselves but for our movement as a whole. We have stood firm in the face of ludicrous anti-union judgements in the courts. in the face of a torrent of lies and smears in the Tory press, and in the face of everything a ruthless employer can throw at you.
We will continue to stand alongside you until this company sees sense and we have an agreement that we can put to you for endorsement with a clear conscience.
Comrades,


Lighbulbs, welcome to this forum, I hope you'll enjoy your stay, no matter how short!:ok:

[johnoWhiskyX]

I would like to stress im am and allways have been a union member, 28 years.
A normal working bod, not a First Pax not even flexible economy, plain old cattle class for me.
That speech was delusional. The more facts that are becoming public the more the Union and the striking CC are losing support. which as of today would be pretty hard to do because i haven't found one person who has said they support them.
The union would do well to drop the accusations of bullying, especially as people read or hear of instances of Working CC being inimidated by erstwhile collegues and some of the details of disciplinary procedures against striking CC.

A text or facebook post? People have been arrested for such things..terrorists, pedophiles, murderers. Just because they are striking cabin crew does not mean what they do should not be taken seriously or the effect it has on their target to be swept away.
picket lines have become synonamous with harrasment, intimidation to anyone who doesnt agree with their point of view. The actions and behaviour or the strikers hardly endears them to the public or me, oh so funny the lady with WW underwear, no, childish. "rather shag a loader than a scab" i am surprised pictures of thos singing the same aren't adorning the loaders locker room or rest rooms just as a reminder of the hillarity of course.

[Diplome]

johnowhiskey:

It truly puzzles me how BASSA seems to embrace the most negative and destructive elements of itself.

I don't believe that Unions are a bad thing..quite the opposite, they can be a force for good between management and the workforce. BASSA just does not seem to feel driven by accomplishing that sort of positive result.

My husband is meeting with his unions now. When I asked him how it was going last night he smiled and said "They don't think its enough but of course they wouldn't. We're talking and will come to an agreement. I have a good workforce."

He does have a good workforce..in part because of their reasonable and professional union representatives.

Thank goodness he doesn't have to deal with the likes of BASSA.

[johnoWhiskyX]

I dont believe unions are bad either. But Unite are looking Awfull manly due to bassa background shenanigans.

There are bad apples all over but bass need to be removed. they are giving trade unionism a bad name.

[wiggy]

In agreement with both of you, particularly regarding the value of Unions.

As for BASSA specifically .....IMHO they've been used to getting pretty much their own way because of weak management within their department. Anything that threatened the senior Cabin Crew, especially those at LHR, was met with a chorus of "no's", and oft as not was followed by a management climb down ( sometimes thinly disguised as a new deal) after a threat of Industrial Action . It's therefore not really suprising that BASSA behave the way they do; they have never needed to learn the art of meaningful negotiation, and the need for a bit of give and take.

Think spoilt toddler and you'll get my drift ( I'm describing the behaviour of the Union, not the behaviour of the vast majority of my colleagues).

[Bongodog1964]

It is hardly surprising that we have on the one hand strikers claiming that solidarity to the cause is hardening, yet the evidence all suggests the opposite. It is without doubt true that there is a small minority of BASSA members who have taken the "we will not surrender" position, and I'm sure that their resolve is as strong as ever. However it is also true that every strike period sees BA rack up their schedule at LHR by another 5% or so. Just recall that the 1st strike saw service reductions at LGW, and LHR operating only 777's on long haul, and the short haul routes that did fly mainly carried out by 18 wet leased planes.
To a certain extent BA's pool of VCC's is reducing, as many of the pilots are now back in the cockpit, and not pushing a trolly down the aisle, for this to happen the crews have to come from somewhere, and they can't all be hastily trained staff members.

The last thing that Willie Walsh needs now is a botched compromise return to work. BASSA have caused huge disruption over the past few years with their strike threats, of course they claim that this year is different, and they haven't walked out for many years, failing to mention the strikes which have been called off one or two days before they were due to start, when BA had already incurred the significant costs of transferring passengers to other airlines, cancelling bookings etc.
BASSA's membership drops by a few more every day, yet all that Duncan Holley can talk about is samosas and bouncy castles. Meanwhile Tony Woodley gives a speech to the TUC conference claiming that the unions have changed from their militant past, if this were the case it might have been better to have omitted words like "scab" and describing csd's on £50k as "comrades"

[fly12345]

I guess one way to end this dispute is to finally run out of passengers and close T5 for a couple of weeks and start qing at the local football venue and try to enjoy the unhealthy junk food on offer there.:ugh:

[Capot]

ALDI and LIDL staff are self employed with NO holiday pay,no sickness benefit and pay their own NI and taxIf that is really true I would suggest that HMRC will be salivating at the prospect of what ALDI and LIDL will have to pay when HMRC choose to investigate.

The "make 'em work as self-employed" idea to avoid paying the employer's NI contribution was always a myth, even when lots of people (including us...that's how I know) tried it on. There's a number of tests, none of which is what either party chooses to call the arrangement.

The employers may well find themselves liable for paying not only their NIC, but also the unpaid PAYE, interest and probably a huge fine.

But we are not, and never will, be prepared to see our members and our union humiliated, victimised and reduced to ruins, as you seem to want - NEVER

That's a coincidence; that's pretty much exactly what everybody is hoping for, apart from a hard core in BASSA and UNITE's dreadful leadership, and it seems pretty much inevitable that it is exactly what they are going to get.

[Bongodog1964]

BAssa's membership figure shown on their website is falling by about three members per day at present. How long does it take for a member to resign and no longer be counted ? By rights as stated by baggersup, the membership should be dwindling far faster if the members who are working, and thus disagreeing with their leaders actually resigned.

[slf22]

Those could be the ones who pay via direct debit and deal with BASSA/Unite directly.If members are paying by payroll they would inform their employer to stop taking the payments. I'd assume that the payroll department is only going to do this once a month - when they run payroll. So look for numbers to drop after this.

[R Knee]

British Airways was trading down 0.6 percent at 201.8 pence as of 12:35 p.m. in London, valuing the company at 2.32 billion pounds. The stock has declined 4.2 percent since Feb. 22, when Unite said members had voted to strike, versus a 10 percent drop in the eight-member Bloomberg EMEA Airlines Index.

Says it all

[oggers]

Some strikers may stay out but BA are now coping to the point where they can sustain operations with or without them. On a personal note, I know which I'd prefer ;)

Strikers will continue to sneak back into work. Hardliners will carry on regardless :\ At some point the strike will be declared illegal if Unite don't wake up from their state of denial first. If it gets that far the remaining strikers will either go back in or be sacked and BA will seek, and probably get, compensation from Unite. It's hard to believe the union would push such a bad position but, if their rhetoric is anything to go by, maybe they are dumb enough to do so.

Clearly the strikers thought they were far too important for BA to manage without them. Clearly they were wrong. But I think the big dilemna facing BA now is the prospect of having these crew return to work with the puerile mind-set of BASSA.

[The SSK]

oggers: Do you think that BA doesn’t have a pretty good idea of who is trouble-maker and who is gullible cannon-fodder? Once sackings become ‘legal’ they can be as selective as they like, without having to justify why striker X got pushed off the parapet while striker Y got passed by.

[wiggy]

Once sackings become ‘legal’ they can be as selective as they like, without having to justify why striker X got pushed off the parapet while striker Y got passed by.

Really (genuine, not a rhetorical question)?

[fincastle84]

Once Bassa has been fully neutered & they're getting pretty close, BA will be in a good position to take full disciplinary action against any malcontents. All BA crew members will be happy to report any trouble makers, safe in the knowledge that they will be dealt with by BA without the interference of Bassa.

I'm old enough to have been a school boy when the ultimate sanction for bad behaviour was the cane. I still remember well the tears on the face of the school bully after receiving 6 of the best. He never caused trouble again.

I firmly beleive that many of the Bassa members will once again meekly become loyal BA CC once they realise that the Bassa bully has been soundly whipped by Mr Walsh.

[oggers]

Once sackings become ‘legal’ they can be as selective as they like

Maybe so SSK. But of those still out I'm anticipating most will end up back at work before they find themselves wilfully on the wrong side of the legislation.

[semp66]

I saw a news clip somewhere the other day of some strange looking people chanting(ranting) at a meeting place where WW was present. If any of them were BACC staff then shame on BA for employing them. Surely there is some basic level of intelligence expected to be met by interviewees! Some of them looked like the effort involved in waking up in the morning left them in, or took them to, their usual level of incompetence.

[Snas]

Once sackings become ‘legal’ they can be as selective as they like, without having to justify why striker X got pushed off the parapet while striker Y got passed by.
Really (genuine, not a rhetorical question)?


No, not really. An employer can be called to justify any employee dismissial after the fact and if the reason isnt sound it can cost the employer accordingly.

However, the bottom line is that (and this really is my area as an employer of over 3,000) you can sack who you like, when you like, accepting that it may cost you a few bob. Unless you are foolish enough to bring disability, race etc into the mix a few bob is all that it costs you, financially at least.

BUT, I'll quickly state that I dont behave like that as an employer, and (alas possibly) neither do BA from what I have observed.

Me, I think that BA may well commence proceedings against some, but for simply striking I dont think so. For behaving like a co*k whilst on strike perhaps, creating silly web site and all that jazz - simply for striking, again I doubt it.

Semp66 - To the best of my knowledge none of the people you saw in your vid clip were BA cabin crew, I have certainly seen no evidence to even suggest such was the case. For the most part they were SWP demo types and had invaded a private meeting. You know, a good ol' fashioned demo and sit-in sort of thing - however misguided in this case I'm all in favour of a good demo when it is needed.

[Neptunus Rex]

If BASSA were to lose another 2,500 members or so, they would represent less than 50% of the BA cabin staff. Then what would happen?

[semp66]

SNAS...I thank you kindly. Am flying BA from Jnb via Heathrow to Atlanta on the 10 th June and the looks of some of that lot had me worried.:ok:

[plane speak]

Derek is still tweeting.....

5 hours more talks .... Willie not moving on no cost item .... More convinced than ever he doesn't want a settlement ...
If I am right that Willie doesn't want to reach a settlement someone in BA needs to get a grip of him ....
Don't take my word about Willie ... Ask why he doesn't take up my challenge to air the arguments in front of cameras ....

[johnoWhiskyX]

I think membership of BASSA is largely irrelevant. Quite soon BA will be able to fly allmost 100% wthout the support of bassa mentalists.
WW has to go along these lines, because if BASSA remain a force to be reckoned with their reduced numbers will lead to a greater proportion of membership being hard liners and they will never accept a WW deal.

Once BA can fly at 100% or as near as damnit, then strikers become surplus to requirements. It doesnt take a genius to see what could possibly happen..even allowing for some being taken back to relieve VCC.
Im not a legal expert but i would have thought BA have a sweet defence against claims of unfair dismisal in that BASSA members refused to negotiate and BA have a duty to existing workers, members of the public ect to carry on operations and hired accordingly given BASSA's lack of goodwill ( or sanity) in negotiations.

I dont think they class it as dismissal i think it's a frustrated contract in that neither party can see an end to a dispute or term of illness.

Willie could give travel back, but if i was in his position i would be wanting major concessions from the union before doing so. For the union to think WW is going to give back travel without anying in return..lala land.

[plane speak]

Unite continues to receive reports on the impact of the strike including:
On June 1st, only one BA flight took off between 1pm and 3pm at Heathrow, bound for Seattle. Normally, early afternoon is a peak travel time for BA.
BA continues to try to persuade striking crew back to work with inducements. Crew who are on strike report being called at home by managers who offer plum trips, such as a trip to Narita, a much sought after trip which rarely comes up for crew. 23 crew are being rostered onto these flights, yet only 12 are needed. Crew suspect that the over-rostering is because BA has no intention of putting crew returning to work on these flights. They may show for work on the promise of a Narita trip but find they're sent to a different destination altogether.
Some 130 volunteer pilots have "unvolunteered" (source: crewforum.co.uk).
T5 is a ghost town as passengers either stay away or are put onto other carriers.How much longer can they continue to believe this xxxx

Link here (http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/latest_news/ba_strike_update_day_16.aspx?lang=en-gb)

[Neptunus Rex]

From the latest Unite bulletin:
23 crew are being rostered onto these flights, yet only 12 are needed.Does that mean that Unite has accepted the 'imposed' crewing level?

[Boxkite Montgolfier]

An excellent rebuttal on the other thread by Hotel Mode exposing the contemptuous lies on the Unite site appraisal of Day 16!

Actually 23 Pax aircraft departed and the Seattle was scheduled after 1500. There were 11 departures during that hour.
It continues to defy belief that which is proclaimed in print by
Unite/Bassa

[johnoWhiskyX]

If anyone believes only 1 plane took off between 1-3. Then i wouldnt like to fly with them. Seriously, anyone with that level of sense in charge of my safety. I don't think so.
Just sack em all.

What is astounding is they can come out with utter crap like that and
1) Think it's believable.
2) Think everyone is a stupid as them.
3) expect to not be challenged on it.

just one bassa member, please for your own sake challenge the rubbish they are coming out with. If they can't give you a striking brother or sister and answer how can you trust them?>

[Snas]

SNAS...I thank you kindly. Am flying BA from Jnb via Heathrow to Atlanta on the 10 th June and the looks of some of that lot had me worried


Oh heavens ?? old bean, worry not and enjoy your flight.

The majority, yes majority, of BA cabin crew are excellent at their jobs and have a basic and genuine desire to provide a quality service to their customers. Even the bad minority are not dangerous, a bit surely perhaps but no more than that.

[Mariner9]

I agree Johno. I've said in the past that I've always found every single BA CC I've spoken to (and that's a lot) intelligent and articulate, but so many aspects of this pointless strike defy belief. How can intelligent people truly believe this nonsense? And why can't a single one of them provide a lucid, well argued post clearly stating their reason to strike, and more importantly, what they hope to achieve?

[plane speak]

On June 1st, only one BA flight took off between 1pm and 3pm at HeathrowSomeone should suggest BASSA/Unite take a look at Casper (http://casper.frontier.nl/egkk/) flight movement display and set the date/time to 1 June at 1pm in replay mode and just sit back and watch all the BA planes that took off! Over 20 airborne between 1 and 3 by my reckoning. Perhaps the switch from Westerlies to Easterlies confused them.

[kenhughes]

I think a mass resignation is completely the wrong way to go about it.

IMHO, the reasonable BASSA members, (who seem to outnumber the militants by around 3 to 1), should take control of their union, not abandon it.

Why haven't they called for an Emergency General Meeting, booted out the dinosaurs, elected reps from within their own ranks and negotiated a settlement?

From my time in the UK, it seems that an EGM clause is a required part of a trade union's constitution.

[ExXB]

Now I know how that boarding card was generated. They used this (http://www.dubfire.net/boarding_pass/)

[Haymaker]

Over on the Cabin Crew thread there is today’s update from the party at strike HQ.

Tony Woodley said the other day "They are trying to starve our members back to work". Don’t worry Tony, it would appear that your man Duncan is doing a sterling job on the provision of food and drink.

For another view on this see also:

Aid agencies alerted as BA strikers face starvation | NewsBiscuit (http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2010/06/02/aid-agencies-alerted-as-ba-strikers-face-starvation/)

;)

[Chuchinchow]

Bad news spreads - and is wantonly distorted - very quickly:

London - British Airways Red-Faced after Bin Laden Boarding Pass to Washington, DC -- VosIzNeias.com (http://www.vosizneias.com/56877/2010/06/02/london-british-airways-red-faced-after-bin-laden-boarding-pass-to-washington-dc)

[cdtaylor_nats]

If all of the non-UK resident members of Unite are paying into the political fund that is financing the labour party isn't that illegal?

Wasn't there a lot of fuss about non-doms funding political parties?

[Diplome]

I've had two cocktails this evening...and my posts might be a tad intolerant of individuals who feel that life is a trauma because they choose to live HUNDREDS OF MILES from their place of employment.

We lost a neighbor today..and my husband is now caught in traffic waiting for a body to be removed so that he can return home.

Silly Simpson and Woodley for thinking that that they even can begin to understand the needs and feelings of the common man.

[Lou Scannon]

From the other thread:

"Finally it was reported back that the USA steel workers have donated $100,000 to our cause. Don’t you just love them?" says Duncan.

Is this true? What have a load of hard pressed and hard working US Steel workers got to do with supporting highly paid CSD's in their struggle for an easy lifestyle?

...or is this yet more BASSA "news".

[Landroger]

"Finally it was reported back that the USA steel workers have donated $100,000 to our cause. Don’t you just love them?" says Duncan.


That was a claim that caught my eye too, Lou. It is terribly difficult, almost impossible in fact, to believe that a Union full of hard bitten, negotiation wise, horny handed sons of toil like American steelworkers, has even a passing resonance with airline cabin crew of any ilk, let alone limey ones. The claim doesn't ring true and there must be someone, somewhere on this forum who can either verify the donation or bust BASSA's claim?

There is a sense that the end game in near, but I'll admit I can't see quite how its going to play out. Probably with a whimper rather than a bang, if history is anything to go by.

Roger.

[ChicoG]

Words of support from Mr. LCC himself....

...the beleaguered airline has found an unlikely ally in Ryanair chief executive, Michael O’Leary, who praised its management for the handling of the dispute and its endeavours to break the union stranglehold.

“BA management has done a good job,” O’Leary said. “A more intelligent union leadership would do a deal.”

[Duffus]

Reading all the threads refering to this strike on various forums I have come to the conclusion that the civil war within the BA CC community will continue long after the IA concludes.
Add the damage to the reputation of BA and its staff, which will never be won back means, BA will probably never be the same again. So I forecast a slow and painful demise of a once great airline.
Taking a step away from the London Bubble and into the wilderness that is the rest of the UK you will find that nobody will actually care if BA implodes. There are plenty of other airlines that do an equally good job and do not force their pax to travel to London before taking them to a foriegn country.

[Snas]

Independent report uncovers BA?s climate of fear (http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/latest_news/independent_report_uncovers_ba.aspx)

Unite's latest, they are still trying...

However, independent could be argued, the author Martine Upchurch, used to work for a trade union and his repeated use of the word "macho" is a bit of a givaway also!

[PaddyMiguel]

Simon Calder of The Indie doesn't think much of Martin Upchurch's report either


Professor Upchurch also describes the use of disciplinary action against cabin crew as "being reminiscent of the worse [sic] aspects of methods used by Stalinist secret police".
Have cabin crew really been subject to torture, deportation to labour camps or summary execution? British Airways denies it. And neither does the airline plan to change its name to Stalinair.


I love that 'British Airways denies it' Must be true then!!

[R Knee]

Does anyone know if you have to be physically on strike after the end of the 12 weeks, or is a continuing dispute without settlement sufficient?

[johnoWhiskyX]

As a customer please could a striking cabin crew answer the following please.

1) If Unite/Bassa are so sure the removal of the travel scheme from strikers is illegal why make it a sticking point for a negotiated settlement, if you are so sure it's illegal then getting it back through the courts would be a certainty wouldnt it? at no cost to unions ( costs awarded)
2) When items are communicated by Bassa reps and then found to be innacurate or false by independant means why aren't the strikers asking questions?
3) When BA issues facts and figures which can be independantly verified why do strikers refuse to believe them. Do they imagine that all of society including TV news channels and papers wouldnt pick up on the "lies" but would instead go along with them?
As an aside, i wonder if BA aren't pulling a blinder. Collecting all of bassa's missives ie tales of no planes taking off, fictional commuters, ect and saving it all for a court case and getting strikes made illegal by the fact that "facts" were in fact lies to the unions membership and bassa/unite aren;t fit to represent their members..mis representation.

If mis representation could be proved would it nullify any ballot result as the membership were voting under false pretences and assumptions.

Oh Professor Upchurch's previous employment as a researcher and journalist for a UK trade union wouldnt of course colour his opinion:suspect:

[Airclues]

johnoWhiskyX

See post #168 (page 9).


A reliable source has told me that BA are recording the claims made by Unite and intend to use them in a future court case. Apparently, if they can prove that untrue statements affected the finances of the airline, then they have a valid claim against Unite.

Can anyone with legal knowledge say whether this is possible?


Unite should be very careful what they say, as it could come back to haunt them in the future. Claims, such as one departure in two hours, which can easily be disproved by the average spotter, will not help their credibility in front of a judge.

Dave

[Chuchinchow]

Professor Martin Upchurch opines


There are aspects of what might be described as ‘macho-management’ by BA, i.e. an embedded culture of bullying and authoritarianism deliberately engineered from the top echelons of the company.In the real world of business and commerce what he calls "macho-management" is described as management actually running a company - and not the "macho" unions.

It may be hard for dyed in the wool trade unionists to accept that, but - in the case of BASSA - they are just going to have to bite the bullet.

[Capot]

I would think that BASSA/Unite's biggest problem now is that not only are they facing the prospect of seeing

our members and our union humiliated, victimised and reduced to ruins, as you seem to want

but the strikers and their leaders have become a national and now an international joke, with their absurd claims and assertions.

Laughter is the most effective weapon that BA has, and all that Willie Walsh has to do is to ignore the Unite people until the strike has finished totally collapsing. Then he can sack the hard-core who will leave pursued by ribald laughter, and good riddance.

Heathrow is now back to 80% of the scheduled service. I very much doubt if there is a single person outside Unite and a few, very few disgruntled and delayed passengers who would care in the slightest about the strikers getting their travel privileges back unaltered, as the price of restoring the final 20% today, as opposed to by the weekend. It's time for a reality check for the strikers. But then that's been true for a long time.

[baggersup]

Quote:
"Finally it was reported back that the USA steel workers have donated $100,000 to our cause. Don’t you just love them?" says Duncan.


I don't know about the $100K claim specifically, but the United Steelworkers of America and Unite signed an agreement in 2008 when Simpson visited one of their conventions in Las Vegas, forging them into a worldwide worker's union.

So they are part of the same international body, if you will.

If the USW gave money, it probably just means that Unite put a call out to all of their international partners who are now responding with some support.

But I wouldn't read too much into it. In my old company, any time there was a dispute in a brother/sister union somewhere, our company's union always sent financial support. The union sending the support did not necessarily have to agree with the dispute's goals. It's just standard op for unions.

I suspect the hard working steel workers, who know what a hard day's graft really is, wouldn't be terribly keen on supporting some rather fey people who live in sunny climes and commute thousands of miles to work, while their jobs are being sent to China. But that's just a guess! :rolleyes:

It doesn't signfiy. Only to DH.

[Pohutu]

QUESTION FOR EAGLES: If strike mandate has expired and no agreement reached, does it mean the workers are now on an unprotected strike, even if they are back to work and not actively withdrawing labor?



No. If you strike during the 12 week period, that action (well, more inaction I suppose) is protected. It is only if you strike after the end of the 12 weeks that you will no longer have protection.

Pohutu

[oggers]

A researcher from a trade union turned academic. A pilot and union rep turned CEO with BA and Aer Lingus on his CV.

Hmm, I like academics but then again I like pilots as well. But which one is most likely to be right about this dispute? There's only one way to find out: FIIIIIGHTTTT....

[ChicoG]

It's not even a fair fight. As the old adage says, those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.

[Stoic]

Just posted on BA's Investor Relations website:
RNS Number : 0249N
British Airways PLC
03 June 2010


TRAFFIC AND CAPACITY STATISTICS - May 2010

Summary of the headline figures
The last 14 days of the month were affected by industrial activity by the Unite union representing cabin crew. Despite this, in May 2010 traffic, measured in Revenue Passenger Kilometres, fell by only 11.5 per cent. Passenger capacity, measured in Available Seat Kilometres, was down 4.7 per cent on May 2009; the strikes accounted for some 6 per cent reduction in capacity. This resulted in a passenger load factor decrease of 5.4 points versus last year, to 69.7 per cent. Traffic comprised a 6.5 per cent decrease in premium traffic and a 12.5 per cent decrease in non-premium traffic.

The financial impact of the strike continues at some £7 million per day. During the final strike period we have planned for an increased flying programme as more crew ignore the strike and report for duty. We have announced that we are planning to fly about 80 per cent of our longhaul programme including all JFK services and also all South African flights as we approach the World Cup.

The total cost of the strike period can only be assessed at the end of the disruption and will reflect lost bookings and reduced travel volumes offset by some volume driven cost savings.


Cargo, measured in Cargo Tonne Kilometres, rose by 7.1 per cent.


Market conditions


Market conditions continue to show improvement.

Strategic Developments

British Airways' two subsidiary airlines launched new routes this month. BA CityFlyer has started services to Ibiza and Mallorca from London City Airport, which will operate up to four and five times a week respectively. OpenSkies has opened a new route between Paris Orly and Washington D.C. which will operate five times a week.
British Airways continued its campaign as the official airline of the England 2018 World Cup Bid by flying the England 2018 bid team to FIFA's headquarters in Zurich. The value in kind partnership will allow the England 2018 bid team to fly around the globe to meet with key figures in world football as they seek to earn the right to stage the tournament in England.

June 3, 2010

[mhum73]

Hi,

I know this question is slightly off topic but just wanted some advice. I booked J class flights from LHR - GRU on BA before Christmas as treat for me and the family as we didn't have a holiday last year due to economic circumstances (message there perhaps for our friends at BASSA). Now I know the flight is running but I just wanted to know whether the service is as you would expect. The BA website says it is but I just wanted to know from those who had flown on a strike day in club whether this is the case.

Sorry for dragging this off topic.. .

[fincastle84]

Rest assured. We flew J from LHR-CPT & LGW-TPA during the strikes & received the usual excellent service.

Depending on whether or not there are many VCC operating on your flight you may only get a cold meal service. Having said that, most flights seem to be crewed by full timers, such is the lack of support from the Bassa morons. (Apologies for being unkind to morons!)

For up to date info from the horses mouth why not send a PM to one of the moderate crew members on the CC forum. Hi Flyer 14 is a good contact.

[baggersup]

In short, mhum, no, the onboard service is not J quality or anything approaching it now. Everyone is very nice, but it's not the old J service of yore. Catering seems to be the most affected aspect.

If you need more information about this, look at www.flyertalk.com and go to Miles and Points, then to the British Airways section. Look at the extensive thread that was created for pax to share their comments and complaints about strike-period service. The F service is getting the most discussion, but they talk about J too.

It should give you the information you want.

If food is important to you, eat in the lounge beforehand and leave enough time for a good meal there. Many pax are purchasing Plane Picnics at LHR to take on board.

My experience has been that meal selections aren't available as before. No menus. The drinks selections are spotty.

Crew are working below the staff they usually have, so the service reflects that. It's not their fault. They didn't choose to have that now infamous curry meal loaded! :ouch:

I don't care as I do it for business and this too shall pass, and BA will eventually get back to normal.

But if you are using this J experience as a treat, you'll get the comfortable flat bed, lounge access and expedited boarding--that is if your airports honor that and many don't. Even at LHR it's spotty. And if the IFE breaks, which it always did constantly even before the strike, the crew may be so busy they can't restart it right away. And take the newspaper you want to read on board--those also might not be there.

I do miss that relaxing time before take-off with a glass of champers, topped up, with a newspaper whilst the rest of the plane boarded, sigh. That was nice. :)

[accystanley]

Lon-Rome Tuesday two delightful CC served all 5 biz class pax a plate of sandwiches. At least we in econ got a ham sarnie I could eat instead of the horrible cheese and onion on this route over the last nine mnths. Only jar was the rude and brusque CC ( vol?) who gave me a single red Smirnoff for my requested double vodka. To my mind this is a single but she wouldn't have it. Rom-Lon 3 weeks ago another delightful CC gave me two blue Smirnoffs which I thought was extremely reasonable. Still I spose one is lucky to get any service at all at the moment. Finally, I noticed the pilot in his intro made no mention of the CC led by X and none of the CC were wearing the usual name badges. It is a sad reflection that this should because they fear some sort of identification by pax and then Bassa retribution. Who made the decision for anonymity, management or the working CC's?

[Diplome]

baggersup:

Stay optomistic, it will return....with some staffing problems solved :)

[ExXB]

I don't care as I do it for business and this too shall pass, and BA will eventually get back to normal.

Do you really think so? I don't believe it for a minute. Some bean-counter is going to say - hey look at the money we can save.

Even without a strike BA wouldn't be on my list of preferred airlines. Will take them, of course, if their timings meet my schedule better or if someone else pays for my ticket (they are often the cheapest in business these days) but not out of choice.

[R Knee]

By Juan Odeboyse *4465...]we are the face of BA, and its our regular flyers which the above vcc will not see much of who appreciate us and want us to be back in the air happ. Its as simple as that.[/COLOR]

I can't agree. This may have been true in some instances perhaps even recently, but I do not believe that, having seen what these strikers have been doing/chanting/emailing etc., even a small minority of regular paying passengers would now agree. How can this view be reconciled with forum comments delighting in dragging the BA reputation down?

I am disappointed that these misguided, misled CC believe it will ever be the same again for them. I am sorry to say it is time for a fresh start, and perhaps those enthusiastic VCC deserve a chance to help BA achieve this.

I expect the old chestnut of CRM (lack of) will now be raised. Throwing toys out of the pram comes to mind.:{

[Final 3 Greens]

Dear Juan

For the avoidance of doubt, I would like to see all strikers sacked.

Capisce?

A very frequent traveller.

[beesflyer]

Qoute : Do you really think so? I don't believe it for a minute. Some bean-counter is going to say - hey look at the money we can save.

Diplome is right, it will return, it has to and it will !!

[johnoWhiskyX]

Just to avoid any confusion.
I would not like to see the strikers return to work, their attitude thus far seen wouldn't endear me to flying BA if there was another option.

[Diplome]

beesflyer:

Thank you, and I truly do believe that the preponderance of the evidence can lead a customer to believe that BA wishes to regain its brand and elevate its service, but that can only be accomplished through a period of rather painful confrontation.

The most obvious example of this is the "hot towel service" drama. Where BA wished to provide a service to its customers, and the BASSA led Cabin Crew said "No" and refused to perform the function at the direction of their Union.

I truly believe that BA wishes to return to delivering a premier service. Unfortunately it must go through this trial to get to the point where customers are the priority rather than an antiquated senior lead Cabin Crew.

If BA continues to hold the line and take the reins back to the airline I'm still in.

[LD12986]

Institutional Investors seem very much on side with BA following today's traffic results:

FT.com / UK / Business - BA losses fail to put off investors (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/78b047ba-6f43-11df-9f43-00144feabdc0.html)


However, a number of investors contacted by the Financial Times on Thursday remained broadly sanguine about the long-term effect of the stoppages, which are due to last at least another five days from Saturday and may continue through the summer.

Regulatory disclosures show some leading BA investors, such as Aegon Asset Management, have increased their holdings in the airline over the past week, when thousands of cabin crew were in the middle of their latest three five-day walkouts.

This was because BA’s underlying performance remained strong, Stephen Adams, Aegon’s head of UK equities, said. “We wouldn’t be adding to our shareholding if we didn’t believe in the management and the long-term future of the company,” he said.

Other investors without a stake in the company said even the prospect of strikes lasting through the busiest summer months would be bearable as long as it brought about a permanent reduction in staff costs.

“BA really doesn’t have a choice,” Paul Owens, a member of the fixed-income team at the Liontrust investment management group, said. “They have extremely high labour costs and they have to address those costs.” Mr Owens said the risks for Willie Walsh, BA chief executive, were high.

“But I think he will win and I think he will serve as a model for other managers.”

[PAXboy]

plane speak
Derek is still tweeting.....Just in case any BASSA member is interested, I'll reply. The comments from Derek in Red, my own suggestions in Blue ...

5 hours more talks .... Willie not moving on no cost item .... More convinced than ever he doesn't want a settlement ...
He cannot move on no cost item, because he has been hired by the Board of Directors to not move.

If I am right that Willie doesn't want to reach a settlement someone in BA needs to get a grip of him ....
The Board of Directors 'got a grip' when they hired a CEO that they wanted to reach a settlement on their terms.

Don't take my word about Willie ... Ask why he doesn't take up my challenge to air the arguments in front of cameras ....
This is a wild guess but:- Because negotiations of staff Terms & Conditions are secret and confidential? Because interim discussions are not valid in public, only the final agreement?

Duffus
So I forecast a slow and painful demise of a once great airline.
Hate to say it but, I've been saying that in here for (at least) three years. The die was cast long before the current dispute. However, this dispute has speeded up the time scale and I said that also earlier in the thread.

[Diplome]

PAXboy:

I would agree with most of your post except that I don't believe this dispute will lead to the demise of BA., quite the opposite.

The Board isn't foolish, the City isn't foolish, and the shareholders aren't foolish, and they have all approved this action.

Perhaps, just perhaps, these individuals know more than Mr. Duncan "is there a cocktail I won't drink" Holley knows about business plans.

As much as they would like to think themselves as a factor in the rise or fall of BA, this small group of militants, through their inane and unprofessional communications, may actually be enabling BA to get on with the future.

[johnoWhiskyX]

Well another fine day here in Paxland. my breakfast bill was £500! i mean i know airport franchises aren't cheap, but really!

While i was having breakfast i got talking to a disabled man who was quite upset, apparently he was trundling past Bedfont and someone slashed his tyres on his wheel chair leaving him stranded, suspicion fell on one of the 2 strikers presnt. But fortunately a volounteer cabin crew came along and fixed his tyre with a samosa and pimms paste that had been regurgitated earlier. and offered the gentleman a lift into T5 and was given complimnetary access to BA lounge and kisses from all of the female cabin crew. I had to wipe away a tear and such generosity it was very humbling.

As we were parting a cabin crew member came upto me and asked me by name if i would like to be upgraded to first? apparently the cabin crew had all clubbed together and upgraded my seat, awww bless them.

There was a minor incident, apparently a returning striker had been overheard complaining that the strikers had secret police type people, not unlike the stazi and that anyone who disagreed with them went in the black book, come the revolution!
anyway, as i said..the incident was the returning cabin crew being dragged away by some wobbly ladies chanting something about willies and they don't want them, leaving a curious chav like odour of samosa's and burgers in their wake.
Boarding the plane was a pleasure, but half of the passngers had to go on another plane. Apparently so many cabin crew were available that they might as well send another plane off and give everyone more room. Much chearing by the PAX.

Apparently some of the CC were volounteers and boy did it show. They were fast, courteous, and willing to go the extra mile..as were the normal CC, no offer of lapdances, but huge smiles from staff obviously very happy in doing a job well.

The captain even circled bedfont a couple of times he said " so it confuses the strikers on how many planes have taken off" but from what i could see from up there, there didnt appear to be anyone in attendance, but it was a tuesday, and slightly warm..and a westerly breeze, with no R in the month.

the above is a work of fiction of course, just in case some bassa mentalist doesnt realise it.

[Mariner9]

and its our regular flyers which the above vcc will not see much of who appreciate us and want us to be back in the air happ. Its as simple as that.

I'm another frequent F and J flyer who most definately does not want to see the strikers back.

[oldtimersdisease]

My company stopped using BA some months ago as they were too unreliable. I don't often visit UK, but when I do I normally fly with Virgin, whose cabin crew, despite being allegedly paid much less than BA staff, have always been very good. If BASSA win this dispute, I doubt we will ever use them again. The only way forwrad for the airline is to allow the managers to manage and for the cabin crew to get on with their jobs. To do the job well takes some practice, but is not particularly skillful as has been seen by how quickly VCC can be trained up to carry out the function. Good luck to Willie Walsh and my thoughts go to those still working despite being threatened and intimidated by these loutish, communist-led strikers.

[Diplome]

Johno:


...but it was a tuesday, and slightly warm..and a westerly breeze, with no R in the month.



Absolutely wonderful....well done.:D

[PAXboy]

Diplome
I would agree with most of your post except that I don't believe this dispute will lead to the demise of BA., quite the opposite.Hi, sorry, it's part of a much longer series of observations in here over the years. I did not suggest that the strike will cause the downfall of BA.

I do suggest that BA is at the end of it's natural life (it's over 90 years old) and have predicted that it will not make it's centenary in it's current form. It will have been bought out or merged with another significant carrier by that time.

The current strike may hasten that to some degree, may give false hope to some but, my personal view is, that it will make no great difference to the outcome. The wheels have been turning for too long to be affected by this.

[oggers]

Sorry this message is shorter than normal - hello to Ppprune or whatever it is called - I gather some sad person posts this on there 3 minutes after it goes live on our forum.

There's me thinking he was maintaining a battery of sock puppets when it turns out he's barely heard of this forum :rolleyes:

[PAXboy]

This marks a HUGE step forward for DH. He has just realised that there is something called the Internet, which is used to disseminate information around the world without let or hindrance from those in power. One of the key results of the Internet is that it dis-intermediates. Those that previously made a living by intermediating, are now cut out. Famously, one of the first groups to be so affected were travel agents. So it is only appropriate that airline organisations are now, too, being affected by it. It's also amusing. :E

Welcome to the 21st century, DH. :}

[Diplome]

Duncan Holley is aware of Pprune...very aware.

I equate his comment to regarding PPrune to his statement regarding the PCCC when he said "Who are they, never heard of them.".

Amazing that this man gets part of each and every members' dues for silly messages regarding the amount of alcohol being consumed by strikers.

[baggersup]

Two words:

Megalomania
Cult

Once these two words apply to an organization and its leaders, reason has been lost never to return.

Have you ever tried to argue hard facts with a parroting cult member?

Didn't get far did ya? :rolleyes:

Another feature of a cult led by megalomaniacs is that the more the pressure is put on from outside the more entrenched they become in their nutty ideas. Feelings of persecution from the outside feed their overdeveloped delusions of grandeur.

(Check out one of the BASSA faithful's assertion, for example, that we FF premium customers are gagging to have his lot back on board to serve us. And you get the picture. Sad. Very sad.)

[Diplome]

baggersup:

I must agree that there is a TOTAL disassociation from reality by those striking crew members that think that BA's passengers (particularly those who avail themselves of their First and Business product) wish for their return.

Unfortunately the striking Cabin Crew have branded themselves by the images we have received over the course of this disagreement.

I could do without being served by someone who has participated or endorsed that sort of behavior.

[Diplome]

I just read an assertion that BA sent out an email on Wednesday offering £100.00 each way to individuals who flew during the next strike period.

Can any CC members verify the truth of this statement?

[baggersup]

Thanks Diplome.

If you need proof of how powerful a hold the leaders have over the core group of the most loyal "cult" members, look no further than this strike.

The leaders managed to get them to drink this Koolaid with glee, in the dire face of every counter-indicator imagineable: Worldwide economic crisis, airline industry crisis and airlines going bankrupt, striking when already the best paid cc staff in the UK, friends, family, others in their circle already losing jobs, suffering salary reductions.

But the leaders were SO successful in their brainwashing that they managed to make their "cult" overlook all of these realities around them and drink the Koolaid anyway.

Every "cult" leader in the history of the world learned a long time ago the power you can wield if you can gather together the weakest in the group and consistently tell them how powerful and special and talented they are--and how everybody else is far less in value than they are. Sound familiar???

Works a charm. Always has. And once the weakest have enjoyed this level adoration by the "cult" leaders, how can they go back to the Real World where they are at the bottom of the heap in talent and performance and overlooked whilst others rise? Hm.

That's what you are dealing with here.

Reason is no longer possible. They lost their reason eons ago, as evidenced by the existence of this strike.

[Bongodog1964]

Diplome
Quote:
I would agree with most of your post except that I don't believe this dispute will lead to the demise of BA., quite the opposite.
Hi, sorry, it's part of a much longer series of observations in here over the years. I did not suggest that the strike will cause the downfall of BA.

I do suggest that BA is at the end of it's natural life (it's over 90 years old) and have predicted that it will not make it's centenary in it's current form. It will have been bought out or merged with another significant carrier by that time.

The current strike may hasten that to some degree, may give false hope to some but, my personal view is, that it will make no great difference to the outcome. The wheels have been turning for too long to be affected by this.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=5734188) Diplome

Quote:
I would agree with most of your post except that I don't believe this dispute will lead to the demise of BA., quite the opposite.
Hi, sorry, it's part of a much longer series of observations in here over the years. I did not suggest that the strike will cause the downfall of BA.

I do suggest that BA is at the end of it's natural life (it's over 90 years old) and have predicted that it will not make it's centenary in it's current form. It will have been bought out or merged with another significant carrier by that time.

The current strike may hasten that to some degree, may give false hope to some but, my personal view is, that it will make no great difference to the outcome. The wheels have been turning for too long to be affected by this.

Unless the IB merger falls through, BA certainly won't be around in its present form for much longer.
Of course it also has to be said that the present BA is the result of many amalgamations and takeovers. This is certainly not a business which has stood still for many decades, there have been a mixtures of forward and backward steps over the years.

[wiggy]

Diplome.. is the assertion that Cabin Crew were offered 100 STG to fly? Given the numbers turning up for work I think that would be highly unlikely but it's quite possibly an assertion that has it's origins at BASSA.

baggers

I'd agree with your sentiment regarding the cult aspect of this, if not some of the language and phraseology! BASSA certainly has made a massive attempt made to demonise the CEO, especially once it became apparent there was no sustainable logic to the dispute, and sadly that seems to have worked to a degree on many of the Cabin Crew. Even the many very intelligent ones can't resist a snipe at "that horrible man" in the absence of anything more concrete to back up their arguments

and consistently tell them how powerful and special and talented they are

Sadly it has now been shown that it is possible to turn folks from a variety of backgrounds into basic, rank and file cabin crew, in three weeks and that act in itself has destroyed any remaining mystic about the specialness of the cabin crew jobs and the qualities needed to do it. I'm not saying it's easy job to do, it's not, but their training does not put them on a par with the likes of a GP (an opinion held by least one Cabin Crew member member). I suspect they, and many of their colleagues in other companies, will be suffering the consequences of this "revelation" for many years.

[Diplome]

Wiggy:

Yes, it is...and yes, the origin of the comment is from an individual I believe to be a CR.

I believe what they are trying to do is take the one down payment and twist it into something special for non-striking crew.

No surprises there :rolleyes:

[Der absolute Hammer]

(it has now been shown that it is possible to turn folks from a variety of backgrounds into basic, rank and file cabin crew, in three weeks)

You could get the most serious kicking on this website if you posted a make believe advertisement which set out a job description as a recruitment poster.
Is a driving licence without stars a pre-requisite? Wouldn't it be all right just to live on an after hours bus route?

As for WW....it look as though he maybe saved the empire-well, at least kept BA flying so that the PMs cannot justify a private GV. So look to a knighthood for him next time around. When he steps down from BA he will probably be made Transport Minister without portfolio.

(edit: Sorry...did not mean a kinghood for WW just a knighthood.)

Post 4525 on the staff channel is pretty good precis of situations

[fincastle84]

As I posted the other day, this dispute is grinding to it's inevitable conclusion.

Bassa was stupidly hoping that media support would keep them in the headlines. The media have lost interest as have the public & without the support of both groups Bassa is finished. They never stood a chance anyway against Mr Walsh who was specifically employed to take away their long standing restrictive practices & make BA profitable.

It will be very interesting to see the reasons for any future ballot on extending IA. I'm sure the BA legal team are champing at the bit.

[TightSlot]

it has now been shown that it is possible to turn folks from a variety of backgrounds into basic, rank and file cabin crew, in three weeks

You could get the most serious kicking on this website...

Quite right, so don't be tempted please.

I'm not going to waste your (and my) time going into the value placed by certain people here on the CC role in general. You're so incredibly well-informed and perceptive that there would be nothing that I, or indeed anybody, could possibly do to change your views in even the smallest way.

Instead, I 'll just have to rely on the old claw-hammer to the head technique, and remind you all to be respectful of the role while on PPRuNe, even though by now, we all know that you don't really mean it and are doing so through gritted teeth.

I, and my friends and colleagues working as CC throughout the industry, do our jobs diligently and with some pride, and (yes I know) with some skill. We are not striking, or proposing to, and I simply will not tolerate vicious sniping any more.

[Diplome]

I should have saved my post from the other board (for which I'm expecting any moment now a swift kick to my gluteus maximus) because it did refer somewhat to TightSlot's observation.

In its condensed form, its important for all of us, Crew, BA employee and SLF, to remember that if the BASSA difficulty is solved and if BA is placed in a position to look forward to the future, allowed to improve service and atmosphere, it will be because of the experienced, motivated, positive Cabin Crew members who chose to support their co-workers in all departments and work and lead through these strikes.

It would not have been possible without them and a productive future for BA will not be achieved without their experience and belief in their company.

[wiggy]

Fair enough Tightslot (and Der A H), and I was in no way being or attempting to be disrespectful...but at the risk of the aformentioned kicking I'd still maintain that it's now a statement of fact, and that is certainly not good for the perception of the cabin crew role or status in the public eye. Those of us who work with cabin crew know it's somewhat different......

I will now bend over, having inserted a copy of The Beano down the back of my shorts.......

[fincastle84]

Instead, I 'll just have to rely on the old claw-hammer to the head technique, and remind you all to be respectful of the role while on PPRuNe, even though by now, we all know that you don't really mean it and are doing so through gritted teeth.


Whilst living in fear of a ban for daring to remonstrate with a mod, I feel that you might be being oversensitive. As a loyal BA pax I have always been supportive of the hardworking, well trained & personable CC who have looked after my wife & myself over many years of travelling the world. I think that the vast majority of BA pax feel the same way.

In my previous life before my little airline went bust, apart from my planning duties I also taught Dangerous Goods ( well someone has to do it), so I am only too well aware that it's a very intensive 3-4 weeks course which CC don't successfully complete without a lot of hard work.

However, I don't have the same feelings towards the hard hearted militants who are trying to wreck BA for their own selfish means. Maybe some posters are allowing similar frustrations to colour their remarks to include all CC, a situation which I also do not support.

[Final 3 Greens]

I'm not going to waste your (and my) time going into the value placed by certain people here on the CC role in general

This is being over sensitive, in my humble opinion.

The fact of the matter is that cabin crew is not a role that requires several years of training (for example, like a doctor), nor does it require professional certification (for example, like a chartered accountant.)

It does require training to meet the standards set by the regulator and a type rating.

Cabin crew not only deal with the safety of the passengers, but also perform an ambassadorial role as they are the visible face of the airline to its customers.

In short, good cabin crew are a valuable asset to an airline.

However, in the wider scheme of things, let's not over egg it?

[TightSlot]

F3G - There is no pretence that CC is a profession, or requires years of training, and never has been: Neither I, nor others have written otherwise. I'm extremely well aware of the requirements, both regulatory and ambassadorial, and do not require reminding of them, least of all by you. Do not make the mistake of assuming that I wish to enter some kind of debate with you about this subject and do not, as is your custom, persist in this vein in your usual and tedious desire to have the final word - just wind your neck in and move on.

Once again, and for the final time... A majority of CC are not on strike, and do not work for BA: Within BA, a majority of CC are turning up for work, and like their colleagues working in other airlines, are doing the best they can on a daily basis. As long as you wish to post on PPRuNe, you will respect this fact, and and treat cabin crew with basic human respect. If you are incapable of doing so, your posting rights will be withdrawn.

I cannot find a way to be clearer than this

Move on

[Litebulbs]

So, next steps.......

Will Mr Walsh just start new fleet and grow it gradually, or dismiss and re-engage all crew using SOSR? I do not believe that BA can be selective, unless it is a redundancy dismissal.

[Winch-control]

Pprune facilitate this forum for us to be able to post/comment/ spout forth our thoughts. We, registered or not are guests of Pprune. Moderators (Tightslot and many more) give of their own time to be impartial and keep each thread on track. I believe they do a really good job. My opinion, I'm entitled to it. If Tightslot decides he has enough of the drivel being spouted and feels that the thread needs a break, then I am sure that is not a 'teddy in the corner moment', but a considered response to the way the thread is progressing (or not). As Cabin crew (Tightslot) I don't think you could hope for a better moderator to 'referee' this thread. And before you ask, no I am not in Tightslots back pocket, I have know idea who he/her is.

Back on thread...

It would appear bassa are going to re-ballot their members, anyone have any idea what the ballot question will be?
My understanding is they cannot re-ballot on the same topic. So what is the new ballot format going to consist of?

[Cherwell]

I saw the England football squad flew out to South Africa on Virgin. Just imagine if they'd booked on BA and couldn't go!

[Winch-control]

But that does not mean we must be abused.

I do believe, as per BA V Bassa/strikers, that is a two way street....

[ChicoG]

Duncan Holley's arch-nemesis, the Daily Mail, have an editorial:

Real agenda of the BA strike leaders | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/columnists/article-1284512/Real-agenda-BA-strike-leaders.html?ITO=1490)

It certainly does ring true with today's announcement of the expectation of massive public sector cuts; how many of these unnecessary council workers that Labour have created will be UNITE members I wonder?

It isn't just BA that's at risk from this bunch of 70's commie comrades.

[johnoWhiskyX]

What BASSA/Unite ballot on next will indeed be interesting. Travel Scheme i would imagine is high on their rant list, and one i have no sympathy at all over.

But i can't think what else they may be balloting over. I predict by the way that the ballot will be succesful, with a 82% majority of voters with only 50% of membership actually voting.

Just been looking at flight prices for next April to LAS..Thomson direct from MAN, Virgin starting direct from MAN..or BA MAN-LHR, LHR-LAS. dunno where my money's going to be going yet. Exchange rate and dispute uncertainty have curtailed any more trips this year.

[johnoWhiskyX]

ChicoG

Aplogies for off topic.I work in Local Government. do not confuse Local Governement and civil service.
You have to get to Higher management before you find people being payed over national average in Local Government. And higher management are very rare birds.
While there is a UNITE prescence in the workforce mainly at the contracting side, the client side tend to be UNISON.

back on topic. The mail has been fairly constant in its opposition to BASSA and UNITE..not helped when BASSA members gave their reporter a hard time and a Foxtrot Oscar

[fincastle84]

My understanding is they cannot re-ballot on the same topic. So what is the new ballot format going to consist of?

Maybe the ballot could demand that BA provides the samosas at BFC:D

[Winch-control]

Fincastle.
Maybe the ballot could demand that BA provides the samosas at BFC

Whilst the samosas, burger van, pimms/beer and bouncy castle have featured largely in Duncan Hollys daily reports, it remains that there are a percentage of BA CC that are on strike.
In 4 days time they (the striker population) have to move forward or WW (with the backing of the BA board and the vast majority of other employees) will determine their future for them.

The 'daily mail' may well be pro BA, but I do not see any newspaper that is pro Bassa/unite, other than the 'socialist'. Could this be because Bassa/unite have no case to fight?

[Diplome]

Interesting that as this strike is on the verge of coming to end that the Cabin Crew thread is now experiencing multiple strikers posting how everyone just needs to get along, that the strikers feel threatened, discussion of the strike issues during duty would be a good thing, etc., etc..

Amazing manipulation while they plot how next to damage the airline.

[fincastle84]

The 'daily mail' may well be pro BA, but I do not see any newspaper that is pro Bassa/unite, other than the 'socialist'. Could this be because Bassa/unite have no case to fight?

Bassa never had an authentic reason for IA. All along the real purpose for this dispute was a bunch of senior CC attempting to protect their long standing perks & restrictive practices. Unfortunately for them they came up against Mr Walsh who was employed by the BA Board with the sole purpose of once again making BA profitable.

Once he has achieved that aim, as he surely will, then he will set about ensuring that the standards of service will once again become world beating. I also firmly believe that is achievable because he already has the tools in place, namely the BA CC. Remove the relatively few bad apples & things will eventually return to normal. The majority of strikers will soon get over their disappointment at losing because they will be relieved to still have a job. Those that don't will join the dole queue.

[Winch-control]

Fincastle:
there is nothing in your last post that I can only agree with, however i still wonder as to how those militant bassa Ba CC will move forward, other than being removed... I do believe that is the way forward for Ba... time will tell.

[Tin67]

I am flying Club World on Thursday so it will be very interesting to see what the crew attitude will be like and whether there is any negative atmosphere onboard.

I certainly hope I'll receive the service you'd expect in this cabin, if not I may take some notes.

[dubh12000]

Reading about possible sabotage on the other thread makes me wonder if I should ever fly with these guys again....

[Diplome]

dubh:

This could very well be part of BASSA and the militants plan to use "guerilla tactics" against BA and its customers as threatened earlier.

I have no doubt that BA and its employees will be anticipating these sorts of actions and will take immediate, firm and appropriate action.

The militants would serve themselves well to simply return to work as professionals and not draw attention to themselves. Unfortunately I believe there are a few who will find that sort of reasonable behavior quite impossible.

The majority of Cabin Crew and BA management will have no tolerance as BASSA may soon discover.

[fincastle84]

Reading about possible sabotage on the other thread makes me wonder if I should ever fly with these guys again....


Oh come on, were's your spirit of adventure?

Seriously though, these are stupid actions by some idiot who I'm sure will be found & disciplined accordingly.:= If we all walk away from BA then the bullies win, albeit without a job to go to!

[EGLD]

On what planet are these international "commuters" living on exactly?

We'd all love to live in the south of France or Spain and have London wages and free air travel to and from work, but it's a tad impractical.

Are they expecting sympathy from the wider public by using these people as sob stories to get staff travel reinstated?

[TruBlu123]

Take a look at the article by Tracy Corrigan in today's Daily Telegraph. She in turn refers to a half page advert Unite took in today's Financial Times.
What bare faced cheek to use a respected City figure out of context. Just shows that Unite/Bassa cannot ever ever be trusted to cut a workable, sustainable deal with BA other than on their terms. Keep going WW this hard core group of give nothing diehards must never be allowed to don a BA uniform again!:ugh:

[johnoWhiskyX]

Some of the sabotage incidents that are being reported dont sound like the action of an individual. "tea and coffee bags had been torn, sugar sachets torn and emptied, eye wash removed, liquor bars were virtually empty (including back-ups) and threatening notes hidden in the jumpseats"

While i have no doubt it is a minority involved it reflects badly on all. unfortunately that is all ways the way of the world..100 good deeds can be overshadowed by one bad one. If BASSA are advocating geurilla tactics like these its just another nail in their coffin probably judicially and publicly.

[Winch-control]

Just shows that Unite/Bassa cannot ever ever be trusted to cut a workable, sustainable deal with BA other than on their terms

I agree and i do not believe bassa are in a position to agree any deal Ba may put before them. their track record over the last 18 months speaks volumes.

Some of the sabotage incidents that are being reported dont sound like the action of an individual. "tea and coffee bags had been torn, sugar sachets torn and emptied, eye wash removed, liquor bars were virtually empty (including back-ups) and threatening notes hidden in the jumpseats

I disagree, it sounds to me like a 5 year old that is having a tantrum, not a proffesional cabin crew member. A single incident that whilst important, should not be used to tar all CC.

[johnoWhiskyX]

I would have thought that any single bad apple carrying out incidents like this would be seen or noticed by another member of the CC..ie not an individual.

I was not attempting to tar all CC with the same brush, but the actions of a minority will impact on the perception of the whole. If a PAX boarded a flight and found something not right who would get the blame in their eyes?
Even the current dispute is unclear to the majority of members of the public they see headlines of BA cabin crew on strike and to them it appears as if they all are.
Details are slowly coming out educating and allready Anti-CC striker public, but until everyone is fully informed, it would be silly to dismiss such sabotague actions as irellevant.

[wiggy]

it would be silly to dismiss such sabotague actions as irellevant.

Agreed...especially as now these stories ( true or not) are now in the public domain.

[glad rag]

Even the current dispute is unclear to the majority of members of the public they see headlines of BA cabin crew on strike and to them it appears as if they all are.
Details are slowly coming out educating an already Anti-CC striker public, but until everyone is fully informed, it would be silly to dismiss such sabotage actions as relevant. Totally correct, this needs nipping in the bud sharpish and in view of the customers..

[Winch-control]

but the actions of a minority will impact on the perception of the whole.
No the majority will realise that a few are inept. They are not so blinkered.

[Mariner9]

That Unite advert in the Financial times(discussed here) (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/tracycorrigan/100006053/why-unite-is-not-very-appealling-to-ba-shareholders/) is pathetic, and quite how Unite/BASSA think that such antics will benefit their side in any way is hard to fathom. If they want to put their side across in a believable article to intelligent people, heading it "Brutish Airways" is hardly going to start things off in the right fashion. "BA don't know the value of crew like me" would perhaps have gained some support if used in a sensible, retrained piece, but what value would be considered by shareholders to employees who describe their employers in the headline terms used?

Pathetic, and yet another publicity own goal.

[Python21]

TruBlu123 posted at 2148 'Take a look at the article by Tracy Corrigan in today's Daily Telegraph'

It can be found here Why Unite is (not very) appealing to BA shareholders – Telegraph Blogs (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/tracycorrigan/100006053/why-unite-is-not-very-appealling-to-ba-shareholders/)

And interesting reading it makes. Thank you TB

P21

[ChicoG]

I notice that the UNITE page to which the author refers contains this carefully worded BASSA/UNITE LIE:

BA cabin crew offered changes to pay and working practices that would have made savings of more than £100 million for British Airways, but the company rejected these proposals and repeatedly walked away from talks while introducing provocative changes.

Absolute BS, and what paltry savings they did offer were temporary.

Investors aren't dumb enough to buy this kind of guano.

[Jipperty]

Writing this from T5 South Galleries lounge where it seems very much business as normal today. Having walked through the rest of the terminal it appears as busy as any Non strike day. Staff are smiling and helpful and flights seem to be running very much to schedule.

I can see from my check in that the club cabins upsatirs and down are well populated which should more than cover the costs of the flight so at least it will be profitable for BA.

I am looking forward to being served by committed staff supporting their employer through very difficult times.

There is really no indication here that there is a strike on other than it is reported in some of the press.

This does not bode well for the hard core BASSA luddites who have led their members open eyed into this disaster.

[Mariner9]

The union website also contains useful further evidence should BA perchance be considering legal action against Unite for misrepresentation/damages. Providing false information to shareholders is most definately worthy of legal action should BA choose to use it.

PS. Does anyone else think that the "actress" in the cc uniform scowling in the Unite ad perfectly fits their mental image of a BA striker? :D

[Diplome]

Investors aren't dumb enough to buy this kind of guano.


ChicoG:

You are quite correct and this article is an example of, once again, Unite/BASSA simply not having the ability or sophistication to effectively communicate to anyone other than individuals who share their militant tendencies.

Unite/BASSA are simply desperate to get someone to save them but this clumsy appeal to shareholders will not gain their position any traction, quite the opposite.

The militant portion of BASSA should be aware that BA is taking these actions WITH THE ENCOURAGEMENT AND APPROVAL OF INVESTORS. If they had wished to maintain any sort of credibility perhaps they should not have spoken of using "guerilla tactics" against the airline and its customers, and kept images of Mr. Walsh off of their gluteus maximus.

[wascrew]

from ` another place`

``
Just spoken to a colleague... she brought back a flight the day after the "breather day". She left LHR on a strike day. When they boarded the aircraft for the return sector, they were all shocked to find that all tea and coffee bags had been torn, sugar sachets torn and emptied, eye wash removed, liquor bars were virtually empty (including back-ups) and threatening notes hidden in the jumpseats.

I would well believe this.

Similar things on the flight that I operated back on.

We had the bonus of playing Challenge Anneka around the aircraft to remove the Stickers adorned in every toilet/mirror/bulkhead with the phrase "Brutish Airways"

Lovely :rolleyes:``


This, sadly , is typical of the `bassa` lot!
In the past we have had stickers pro BASSA on aircraft and stupid things happening like crew emptying out every unopened bottle of wine or champagne and throwing it away.
Never though has it extended to safety equipment being tampered with.

There is a simple way to deal with this.
If on taking over an aircaft and bars are empty or bond find empty bars (more than usual) then the whole crew should be interviewed and searched on return to base.Similarly any aircraft found adorned with stickers.There is a procedure for this in place but rarely if ever used.
Anyone with anti-company stickers on their person or in their baggage should be invited to appear an be interviewed by their manager and their commitment to their job and the company questioned.
I would also ban BASSA lanyards and baggage labels.
Just as another reminder as to who these people actually work for!!


It seems typical when put alongside the behaviour taunts chants an postings of striking crew.

[baggersup]

If the reports of onboard sabotage are even remotely true, IMHO that plane is no longer a transport mechanism needing a crew of cleaners--it's a crime scene. If there isn't police tape around it until a full forensic analysis has been done, then BA has lost the plot. Not to mention customers.

We pax have sat by trying to be supportive and not let the militants win and assumed BA will keep things safe, section away the worst of the militants who might be heading into even greater damaging behavior--and not just to the airline's PR effort, either.

Understandably, due process with employees must be confidential.

However, if Mr. Walsh does not come out very soon with a video or email to the pax saying point blank that the culprits of such behavior will never again be on an airplane he manages--some of us are out of there. There is a breaking point for supportive pax---and emptying oxygen bottles, trashing galleys, removing safety items like eye wash and so forth is that breaking point for me anyway.

As a FF pax I really feel the need for some strong assurances--now. Unless somebody has left the premises in handcuffs, I'm not reassured.

Sorry, but perhaps it's time for a handcuffed perp walk through the CRC to drive home the seriousness of this. Tongue in cheek suggestion? Perhaps. But anything less than WW addressing these emerging rumors publicly, and we pax are going to be pretty wary that this alleged onboard sabotage is being dealt with.

I think we need to hear something from Mr. Walsh.

[Ancient Observer]

I have booked a BA flight for later this Summer. As a "valued" customer, am I allowed any choices.........?

1. I would like to fly on a plane that has not been sabotaged. Can I choose to do that?

2. I would like to fly on a plane with BA CC who were NOT strikers. Can I choose to do that??.

If I can't make those choices, it'll be back to Virgin, I think.

Regular readers will know that I am critical of BA's managers, but for once I would like someone in BA management to answer my 2 simple questions.....

(pigs and flying come to mind............)

[Diplome]

Courtesy of ian100 at FlyerTalk:

From today's Guardian:


British Airways' chief executive, Willie Walsh, today declared the latest day of strike action by cabin crew "a failure", citing the number of passengers who had successfully taken flights despite the trade union Unite's plan to ground all planes.

"Unite have failed to ground British Airways, and we are continuing to fly and we are continuing to work," Walsh said, speaking on the sidelines of the annual general meeting of the International Air Transport Association in Berlin.

Walsh said the airline had stuck to its pledge and flown thousands of passengers on Sunday, despite the strike. "Yesterday we flew over 72,000 customers on a day of strike by Unite and, as I say, they have failed," he said. "They have failed in their efforts."

Walsh refused to comment on the state of negotiations between BA and Unite, saying he had "given a commitment not to speak publicly about the discussions that have taken place, and I intend to honour that".

He refused to respond to reports that Tony Woodley, the joint Unite general secretary and a key negotiator in the strike, had chosen to go on holiday to Cyprus with his wife on Saturday, immediately prior to the industrial action, a decision that received widespread criticism. In turn, Unite members criticised Walsh for deciding to travel to Berlin rather than stay in London, at such a crucial time.

Walsh said: "This is business as usual, and I'm continuing to do what is right for British Airways in running the business." He stressed that the airline was still open to talk to Unite "at any stage".

"They will bring an end to their industrial action on the 9 June," he said. "We are available to talk to them at any stage. I've got plenty of people in my team who can sit down and talk to Unite if there are any people there to talk to. But for BA it's very much business as usual."

Members of Unite will remain on strike until Wednesday but the union has said it is prepared to hold a fresh ballot if agreement is not reached soon. The dispute centres on travel concessions that have been withdrawn from BA employees who have been involved in strike action. It could lead to lengthy disruptions over the busy summer months.

Asked at what point BA would be prepared to cave in to Unite's demands if the costs of the strike became unmanageable, Walsh said: "There is no trade-off in this. This is about ensuring that British Airways has a cost base that is in line with our competitors. This is about the future viability of the airline." He added: "We have been absolutely clear: we intend to continue to make progress on our cost base. We can do that in many different ways."

He remained adamant that travel concessions would remain unavailable for strikers. "The concessions are for those who show loyalty to the company, not those who try to damage its profits," he said.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...e-willie-walsh (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...e-willie-walsh)

The last paragraph reveals that he is still supporting those Cabin Crew who kept the flag flying.

[Mariner9]

I agree Baggers.

For BA to regain my confidence, the militants have to be removed. They only sure way seems to be to dismiss all strikers. If that takes a few "innocent but misguided" striking CC out too then that's too bad. It could even be argued that by continuing in this crazy action and failing to resign from BASSA despite some despicable behaviour, "innocent" crew are guilty by association in any event.

[Diplome]

Ancient Observer:

Rather than an on-line forum you might best expect a response from BA if you were to contact them directly.

You might prefer, as 99% of us would prefer, to fly with only non-striking individuals but I don't believe that is a realistic demand.

[Ruthanne]

Reading on the other thread about the alleged stuff that is being done on the aircraft has finally put the nail in the coffin for me as far as flying BA..
I never ever thought I would say it...but enough is enough, time to seek other airlines to accommodate myself and my family on our regular flights..
of course the decision was almost made after the previous flights recently taken, (sent in a formal complaint to BA with no response to date) the fact that I actually had food poisoning from food more than likely consumed on the flight...and now reading what I am reading!!!!!enough is enough!! whats the song or phrase 'so long it's been good to know you'

[Snas]

Similarly any aircraft found adorned with stickers.


As far as crew areas are concerned that would be every aircraft in the fleet.

[Litebulbs]

I agree Baggers.

For BA to regain my confidence, the militants have to be removed. They only sure way seems to be to dismiss all strikers. If that takes a few "innocent but misguided" striking CC out too then that's too bad. It could even be argued that by continuing in this crazy action and failing to resign from BASSA despite some despicable behaviour, "innocent" crew are guilty by association in any event.

What would be the reason for dismissal? Taking protected industrial action? If so, does that constitute union activities, which is an automatically unfair dismissal and I believe, will remove the cap of compensation. Will the disciplinary process be used and what charge will be used?

[Rescue3]

Regarding the vandalism. If it is indeed such a widespread problem. Then the aircraft should be checked before departure from LHR as being 'clean'. On arrival at the destination they should be rechecked, prior to crew disembarkation, by the station manager (or duty officer/ground engineer). If any vandalism is found then suspend the crew (individual or multiple) subject to displinary action. Simple, make an example of a few and it will soon stop.

[Ten West]

You might prefer, as 99% of us would prefer, to fly with only non-striking individuals but I don't believe that is a realistic demand.

Unfortunately for BA, it'a very realistic demand. We just book with another carrier. Simples.

I continue to book BA flights for work because on certain routes they're our preferred carrier, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that I won't be booking them for myself any more. Not until long after all this is sorted out at the very least.
Why should I? Sure, I support those who didn't allow their airline to be destroyed as a by-product of a Union power struggle, but I've rather lost confidence in BA now.
If they're actually going to allow these saboteurs back onto their flights and then allow them to continue their personal vendetta against the airline and anonymous passengers, then I'd rather take my money elsewhere to be perfectly honest.

I couldn't give a monkey's about tea and coffee sachets, stickers and the like myself. I'm sure the good cabin crew members will rectify that situation easily enough and little "comfort" items like that are a non-issue for me, but how long until some clown starts damaging stuff like life jackets or walkaround bottles or masks?

No, I like BA well enough, but if their boss doesn't have the stones to make an example of these people then I'll book somewhere else thanks all the same.

[fincastle84]

I think that one shouldn't get too carried away by a couple of isolated reports of aircraft or on board equipment being sabotaged. They are islolated incidents & can easily be controlled by the captain being the last person to leave the aircraft accompanied by the senior CC member having completed a quick inspection of the aircraft interior.

For those who experience any surly or impolite on board service then request a crew comments form for completion. From personal experience they always elicit a prompt response from BA.

Tenwest;

Are you really going to forsake all of those 1000s of BA Miles?

[Mariner9]

A lawful withdrawal of labour is one thing Litebulbs, but as you are well aware the conduct of Unite/BASSA has gone well past that. Many of their actions have questionable legality.

If they had conducted themselves with dignity through this process there would have been no PR requirement for BA to "deal" with them.

However, through the conduct of BASSA/Unite during this dispute, customers need convincing that we will not be flying with CC who exercise such poor judgement that they consider it acceptable to behave in a manner witnessed over the last few months.

Failing to deal with the strikers would discrimanate against all the remaining skilled, loyal, hard working BA employees in my view. I don't think that would be an unreasonable approach to take, should it come to be argued in Court.

[Litebulbs]

Failing to deal with the strikers would discrimanate against all the remaining skilled, loyal, hard working BA employees in my view. I don't think that would be an unreasonable approach to take, should it come to be argued in Court.

BA appear to be dealing with individuals who have crossed BA's line with regard to inappropriate behaviour. What you appear to be suggesting is that anybody who has withdrawn there labour, should be dismissed.

[johnoWhiskyX]

I will still likely fly BA if i could be assured there would be no disruption, and i mean long term, i generally book months in advance. And whilst in the past on rare occasions i have let thngs slide, i don't think i would be inclined to do so again.

What i would do if i was WW would be to institute a secret flyer program, not just in First/Business but in cattle class too.
Dibs on first application:ok:

[Papillon]

BA appear to be dealing with individuals who have crossed BA's line with regard to inappropriate behaviour. What you appear to be suggesting is that anybody who has withdrawn there labour, should be dismissed.

There's a pretty big chunk of opinion that thinks exactly that Litebulbs, both inside and outside BA. I wouldn't underestimate the frustration and anger with the strikers that exists out there, both from customers and staff. People might not like to hear it (and may strongly disagree) but that's why you're seeing comments about overpaid trolley dollies (yes, I know people wince at that - but it does get said by many) appearing here as well.

I doubt BA will go that far, this is a company that's never so much as made anyone compulsorily redundant (as a collection of delighted and substantially richer Voluntary Severance ex-staff will testify), but if they did, I rather doubt there'd be much in the way of sympathy across a swathe of opinion.

You have to ask how the employee group got itself in such a mess that as a collective their colleagues start talking about "hating" them and so on. Comments like that get jumped on, and rightly so; washing your dirty linen in public is a bad idea, on here but the fact it is happening at all is notable.

[bubblesuk]

Is it possible that it could get to the stage that BA have to sack strikers to regain customer confidence?

[Neptunus Rex]

What was referred to as "Questionable Legality" in a previous post is, quite simply, a criminal act, and deserves to be treated as such.
In a 'prior incarnation,' as Captain, after an international flight, I always made a thorough inspection of the aircraft, accompanied by our Flight Engineer, because he knew far more about likely hiding places than me. On one flight, we found a large package in an empty bin addressed to someone who was not on board. With my FE as a witness, I took it straight to the Senior Customs Officer. He opened it to find parts of a copy (but lethal) M16 Rifle. He called the Police and had the addressee investigated, charged and thrown into clink.
Although not quite so dramatic, BA Captains should, in the present circumstances, take similar precautions and have any miscreants face the full process of the law.

[Diplome]

What i would do if i was WW would be to institute a secret flyer program, not just in First/Business but in cattle class too.



That would be a very positive move that I would endorse.

Litebulbs...each and every striker should understand that the VAST majority of BA's customers would absolutely choose to never fly with them.

They have made it obvious they have no respect for BA, their co-workers and themselves. The comment made by a BASSA LEADER regarding using guerilla tactics was simply too much.

Given the fact the flying public, which they wish to reassure, would support such measures, here's hoping BA and the professional crew come down HARD on each and every individual case of sabotage, intimidation, etc..

No tolerance regarding these militants would go a long way in confirming BA's commitment to their customers.

[Mariner9]

My "questionable legality" comment earlier was not intended to relate to any sabotage incidents - I am sure that if any of these arose as described on here, they will be properly dealt with using normal, robust disciplinary procedures.

However, I was referring to the overall conduct of BASSA/Unite, including outright lies to the media that undoubtedly affected customer confidence in the airline and made thousands of customers worry unduly over their travel plans.

In my view, sacking all the strikers is indeed what many (or pehaps most) customers expect BA to do if they are to regain confidence in the airline.

PS to Litebulbs: Grounds for dismissal could simply be collectively bringing the Company into disrepute on the basis of the conduct of BASSA/Unite through this dispute:=

[Litebulbs]

I fully understand why individuals would be, a best, frustrated by the actions of Unite/BASSA. I was asking a question of what could be done, rather than what people thing should happen.

As I understand it, industrial action is not a disciplinary offence, in it's self. The way you conduct yourself may be, however.

The pilots are currently taking legal action againt BA, with regard to holiday pay. Should BA act against the pilots?

[wascrew]

Litebulbs that case has been going on for some time now and is relevant to many airline personnel.

And if the pilots are successful the BA cabin crew will benefit on the same basis which is why (once again) the BA cabin crew have not started their own legal case or negotiations and are piggy backing on the pilots.
As and when they (BASSA/UNITE) are required to negotiate on their own as in v HMCR on taxation of allowances they fail to deliver.
As could be said for their negotiations with BA on the current issue.

It seems to me you have always argued against the employer with your one liners. Turning it the other way round and using your expertise in union matters if you were BA (or running your own business) how would you legally get rid of the strikers which seems to be the preferable option for many groups?

[Diplome]

Is that a bit of a passive/agressive inquiry? lol

When I see a member of flight crew walking around Heathrow with a photo of Mr. Walsh on his bottom, when I hear of flight crew emptying service containers, leaving used feminine products on the aircraft, speaking of using "guerilla tactics" against the airline I might be concerned.

....but hades hasn't frozen over so I'm not too concerned.

The true shame in this is that this small pile of ill behaved, coarse, rude individuals have attempted to smear professional, capable Cabin Crew and their airline with their actions.

They failed in their strike...and it might get a tad painful if they don't start behaving like adults.

[Mariner9]

As you said Litebulbs, conduct during the dispute is the issue here.

If the pilots are indeed taking court action against BA, I, as a fairly well infomed customer, was unaware of it. Ergo, BA would be hard pressed to claim that such action would bring the company into disrepute.

[Litebulbs]

I don't think that you can legally get rid of strikers. That doesn't mean that BA cannot just do it and test it in court. If they win, it's job done, but if the dismissals are unfair and a lawful strike is the reason and that strike is seen as union activities, then it could be very expensive.

[Litebulbs]

The case makes interesting reading and both sides have put interesting positions. My point is that if successful, that will be an increased cost to BA. Is that acceptable at this time?

[77]

I don't think that you can legally get rid of strikers.

Don't they just issue the 90day redundancy notices to all cabin crew, ask them to apply for their jobs then only offer contracts to those that didn't strike?
Is this a possibility??

[ranger07]

In my view, sacking all the strikers is indeed what many (or pehaps most) customers expect BA to do if they are to regain confidence in the airline.



Not forgetting staff who are of the same opinion!!

[Litebulbs]

They would not be redundant, if they were to be re-engaged. They would be dismissed and re-engaged. There would then be a potential unfair dismissal claim, but BA would probably argue some other substantial reason SOSR. But this would have to be for all crew, as I see it, not just those that went on strike.

They could all be made redundant and offered the chance to apply for the new fleet contract as a suitable alternative, but I imagine that many would not see it as suitable, if it was this market rate + 10% deal. I do not know enough about employment law to see if there was enough change in the role, to allow that to happen. I am sure BA's legal people will have done the work on this, and they have been very good up till now.

[widebody69]

I think they can do it Litebulbs i.e. make everyone redundant and re-hire on different contracts. It's what Aer Lingus threatened in Ireland, the basis and logic is that the original contract, therefore the original position no longer exists. This then meets the UK redundancy condition that the position you were hired for no longer exists, as the position is defined by law in the contract. BA could also argue collective redundancy due to reorganisation and reallocation or work. It can't be deemed unfair if everyone was made redundant.

[Diplome]

77:

From what I understand, no, that isn't a possibility.

However Litebulbs rather insular view is not a possibility either.

There is no "get out of jail free" card with this engagement for those who engaged in outrageous behavior and now wish to say "Oh, never mind".

Mr. Walsh reiterated again today, in the most strong terms, that original term Staff Travel would not be reinstated to strikers. Period.

These radical individuals who wished to smear good Cabin Crew and co-workers are going to be watched. If they cross a line they can squeal like crazy that its only because they were on strike, but the judgement will be based on their conduct according to contract, both during and after the strike.

I expect, based upon the intellect I'm viewing, more disciplinary proceedings. Some of these individuals just can't help themselves.

No surprise in a call for new contracts and a 90 day "take it or leave" option.

[Litebulbs]

As I understand it, an employee has a contract.

That contract can be varied by agreement.

If there is no agreement, what happens?

If there is a workforce reduction, then you would be in a redundancy situation. If a role was removed, say the CSD, this would also be a redundancy situation.

A variation of a contract is not a redundancy. If you terminate and re-engage, you are being dismissed and may be able to seek unfair dismissal.

[Mr Optimistic]

wasn't union graffitti found chalked in the (BOAC ?) Trident which crashed at Staines in the 60's: and wasn't staff animosities related to union action suspected as a part cause of the Captains heart attack ? If stickers etc are now being found on transports, wouldn't BA be entitled to escalate this above nuisance ?

[harrypic]

As has been stated on here before - any employer, at any time, may sack any worker(s) for any reason, valid or not.

If its a non valid reason, as defined by UK employment law, the said workers may then have a claim for unfair dismissal. Such claim may well take months if not years to come to court, and the court, if upheld, will issue compensation. Such compensation will be comsensurat with the salary of the person and unlikeley to be more than 1 years salary. The court could instruct the employer to re-instate the employee but the employer can get around this by paying a fine and is not legally binding.

So, if it was identified there were 200 hardline militants, BA could remove them for good for around the cost of a days strike action (assuming £7m).

Of course, this would be a PR disaster for BA, but it is a valid option.

There is no unlawful dismissal, there is no criminal or civil offence and no one goes to jail, its just a compensation issue, so a numbers game....

[Litebulbs]

Agreed, although it would be an unfair dismissal.

[harrypic]

Agreed, unfair not unlawful.

[Diplome]

As I understand it, an employee has a contract.

That contract can be varied by agreement.

If there is no agreement, what happens?

If there is a workforce reduction, then you would be in a redundancy situation. If a role was removed, say the CSD, this would also be a redundancy situation.

A variation of a contract is not a redundancy. If you terminate and re-engage, you are being dismissed and may be able to seek unfair dismissal.


Please understand that I'm addressing the content of this post and not the poster. Definitely "playing the ball".

This post reflects a rather naive approach to both employment and contract law.

First, I understand that most of this defensive posture is as a result of the loss by BASSA of its IA. Tis fine, a defensive posture as the result of a loss is a reasonable stance.

What is unfortunate is that BASSA, whether due to lack of vision or lack of talent in its leadership, did not specifically forewarn its members regarding the risks involved in not just the IA movement, but also its members individual actions and conduct.

BA fired a shot across BASSA's bow with the notice of withdrawal of Staff Travel in the event of strike action. BASSA, still playing its role as the bully on the block chose to ignore this signal.

Soooo....Yes, due to the failed strike action (it would have been different if the strike was successful...but it wasn't) BA, in the right window, has the opportunity to call for new contracts. Period.

Those militants that no reasonable Cabin Crew wish to work with, that no reasonable customer wishes to fly with, can scream "unfair dismissal".

...and the result. BA delivers to its customers a message that they are listening and that they deserve our support.

A few, and it will be a very few, angry, negative, unproductive Cabin Crew may challenge...but the exchange means that BA is game to take them on.

When BASSA decided to dismiss the customers, to treat passengers like so much dross, they lost the battle. BA will pick and choose its battles, and they will win. BASSA's conduct, public statements, and overt behavior make it too much of a target rich environment. And BA employees will say thank you, Cabin Crew will say thank you...and most of all the flying public will say thank you....and communicating to the public that BA will protect them from this perceived negativity is a revenue producing action.

Every striking BA worker who decides to carry on the negativity, carry on the lies, carry on the intent to bring negative onto the airline is a walking target.

Amateurs.

[Diplome]

again, courtesy of ian100 at Flyertalk:

Originally Posted by FT
Walsh throws down gauntlet to strikers

British Airways chief executive Willie Walsh threw down the gauntlet to striking cabin crew staff on Monday, saying he would hold out against industrial action “for as long as it takes”.

In a sign of BA’s determination to break the Unite union’s stranglehold on the loss-making airline, Mr Walsh told a group of airline industry leaders: “I don’t think we’ve been brave enough in the past to stand up and say ‘No’.”

His comments came as flight attendants staged a third round of five-day strikes. Their action is due to end on Wednesday but the union may ballot cabin crew on further action if no agreement is reached in the dispute.

Speaking at the annual meeting of the International Air Transport Association in Berlin, Mr Walsh said he would not give in. “We’re absolutely determined at BA we are not going to do that this time. We’re going to hold out for as long as it takes and we will continue to build up the amount of flying we’re doing.”

Mr Walsh has deployed an arsenal of weapons since the strikes began in February, including hiring extra aircraft and crew, training volunteer attendants and taking legal action to block the strikes.

But the chief executive implied he might go further. Asked if he could imagine a situation where BA would start sacking striking workers, he said: “Let’s see what happens.”

He continued: “I think the contingency plans we’ve developed have worked very, very well and we continue to build on those. We’re building on the existing plans that we have.”

The union claims an agreement in principle has been reached over the cost-cutting proposals that sparked the dispute, but says the removal of employees’ travel concessions and BA’s refusal to reinstate sacked and suspended workers is blocking a deal.

Mr Walsh disputed this claim. “Travel is not the issue at the heart of this. I made it absolutely clear before the cabin crew even balloted for industrial action that travel concessions, which are non-contractual benefits, are clearly something of value to people in the business and something that is given to reward loyalty and service and dedication of the people in BA.”

Responding to the Mr Walsh’s determination to hold out for as long as it takes, Unite said: “Threats like this suggest BA’s management is getting even more macho. How on earth is this going to deliver a solution to this dispute?”

It said the City would “soon begin to worry about a CEO waging an uncontrolled war without end against his own workforce.”



Thank goodness that the response used the word "macho". Otherwise I may have doubted its authenticity.

[gr8tballsoffire]

Diplome
Great post...every word rings true.

[hautemude]

baggersup (post 2162), ancient obsever, ruthanne & others

These are the words at the bottom of the Pprune page

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions

Perhaps it is the case that these stories of aircraft equipment sabotage have been put forward by BASSA supporters/contributors wanting to frighten potential or regular passengers in pursuit of their own goal. Or of course, perhaps not. Think about it!

[Diplome]

Compare Mr. Walsh's statements to those fed to the minions by BASSA's own Duncan Holley:


DAY 20 - DUNCAN’S REPORT BACK
Jun 7th, 2010 by admin

Anxious to avoid the Bedfont burger blues, I got talked into having lunch at the pub across the road today at the Duke of Wellington where the “chicken tikka” wraps came especially recommended by Chris Harrison. Thinking that was a much healthier option than a greasy burger I went for it but was completely undermined in my healthy intentions when it arrived with the biggest pile of chips I have ever seen. Normally I can resist chips but when they are plonked under my nose my resolve breaks and today was no exception. So I ended up eating three times as much as I would have had I stuck to the burger van. I am now in total disgust with myself.

Bedfont was Bedfont - same old faces but again some new ones to freshen the scenery. Before I forget, some pickets asked me to mention the returning PHL crew (who left on Friday) who stopped off to drop off doughnuts etc - much appreciated and proves the spirit is still out there.

Some of the reps went to meet Derek Simpson today to finalise the letter to BA giving notification of a further intention to ballot along with the reasons. The meeting went well and we are expecting an announcement from Len McLuskey at Bedfont on Wednesday around 1 with fuller details.

I think we have all grown weary of BA claims about how they are successfully operating an almost 100% service, blah blah blah and you are probably equally fed up with Union counter claim but below I reproduce a Unite statement issued to the media this morning -

“Day 20 of the strike, which has alone cost BA £140m.

Unite estimates that, despite BA’s vastly expensive and divisive contingency operation, yet again over 40% of BA’s operation has been hit by the strike. Flights to important destinations in the BA schedule, including JFK and San Francisco, continue to fly but with passenger numbers severely down and some flights half empty.

Unite has also been advised that so empty are BA’s planes, they are now looking for volunteer passengers. This is because, as BA continues to seek volunteer crew to break the strike, it is now encountering applicants with no flight experience at all. Volunteers need to have flown in order to become crew, which is why BA are asking them to fly as passengers.

Some flights take off with strange routes - one weekend flight took off from Gatwick, landed at Heathrow, took off again for Edinburgh and eventually landed in Cardiff. As this is not a BA scheduled route, this can only have been an empty plane or a plane carrying novice crew on their inaugural flight.”

STATEMENT ENDS

So despite what BA claim, things are far from rosy. I know for a fact that the 2 BA planes into Calgary last week had nothing but cargo on board and that scenario is being repeated all around the world. Finally

Louise wrote to Billy Bragg to thank him for pitching up at Bedfont on Saturday and got this reply for those interested -

Louise,

Thanks for your kind words. I have had several emails of thanks from your colleagues - even from some who were off on duty elsewhere. I had a great time at Bedfont and found the whole thing really inspiring. I’m so glad I was able to come along and show my support.

Hope to see you at Tolpuddle

all the best,

Billy

I think Billy’s words just about concludes today’s report back - I am due at Watford at an employment tribunal, which is scheduled to go on all day so chances are I won’t make Bedfont tomorrow - I will get someone else to do a report back in preparation for the big send off on Wednesday. Those of you asking about my case - I have my first appeal with the company on Thursday. Looking forward to a day off on Friday when I can reacquaint myself with my tomatoes and perhaps think about starting a diet. I did only say “think” mind you.

Cheers all and good luck tomorrow all those going to the House of Commons to lobby the MPs.

Rgds Duncan


Chips, rumours, "Oh my Gawd, I'm fired and may have to work for a living!!" and tomatoes.

Certainly someone I wish to be taking 3% of my dues and be speaking for me in the face of my future.

No answers, no direction, no serious signal regarding consequences and costs. Just Chips and tomatoes.

Well done Mr. Holley.

[TrakBall]

As much as the strikers and their union would like then public to believe that it is a "macho" Willie Walsh that is the problem, it is really the other way around.

The amount of bluster, hate and reprehensible behavior by what is probably a fairly small minority of cabin crew is what is reallly macho. WW has not tried to bully anyone. He did say if you do X, then Y would happen. That is not being a bully. That is communicating the consequences of an action.

Until Unite/BASSA militants and leaders can get past the personalities involved, then there won't be a solution. And time is running out! At some point, BA may be forced to dismiss strikers or issue new and less lucrative contracts to all cabin crew.

The moderators of this thread always remind us to play the ball and not the person. That may be the best advise for BASSA before it is too late.

TB

[Diplome]

The moderators of this thread always remind us to play the ball and not the person. That may be the best advise for BASSA before it is too late.



Well said. The fact that BASSA have turned Mr. Walsh into an almost iconic figure for the U.K. public may be a hint for how well their approach has worked so far :)

grea8tballsofire (and I know there are a few spelling errors in there):

Thank you. Many individuals before the vote counseled members of BASSA to "keep their powder dry" for real issues that would be coming...but they just couldn't help themselves. They now accelerate the "real issues" (New Fleet) and diminish their status, integrity and influence.

A comedy of errors.

[Litebulbs]

This post reflects a rather naive approach to both employment and contract law.

I am very willing to learn, on both contract and employment law, so please highlight where my understanding is incorrect.

[Entaxei]

Re Post 2193 - just to stop another misleading rumour arising to start another thread. - When Papa India, a BEA Trident 1, stalled and went down at Staines, I was working on the hangars in BEA on Trident maintenance, we all at that time felt a deep involvement in the accident.

Here is the official list of five immediate causes of the crash:
(1) Captain Key failed to achieve and maintain adequate speed [ie. there was little or no margin for error - defence in depth]; (2) the droops were retracted some 60 knots too soon; (3) the crew failed to monitor the speed errors and to observe the movement of the droop lever; (4) the crew failed to diagnose the reason for the stick-push warning; (5) the crew cancelled ("dumped") the stall recovery system

The 'droops' are leading edge flaps.
There was no mention of any union activity.
The Captain had a background arterial problem which was not found to have contributed to the accident.
The accident is significant because it forced the introduction of CVRs amongst UK airline operators.

[johnoWhiskyX]

A company can re-organise and as part of that reorganisation make posts redundant removed from the establishment).
All employees are invited to either take VR or apply for one of the establishment posts.
Those unsucessful are then made redundant..ie no postion in the establishment for them.

or

Re-organise and give all employees a new contract. they would have a limited amount of time to sign the contract voulountarily or they would be made redundant and immediately offered employment on the same contract. Employees would then have 90 days to accept this contract or they would have been presumed to have resigned from the establishment.

Thes second option wouldnt solve anything. As signing after being made redundant is signing under duress and could then be appealed, of course the militants would still be around.

or fire those it does not want.
unfair dismissal for sure, but as some one mentioned earlier..if its costing 7 million per day now..and of course not all dismisals are dead cert winners on appeal.

in my opinion firing them would have a huge impact..and not negative. it would send a clear message to customers..we have got rid of the rubbish, whats left is professional and willing to server you and make BA a national carrier to be proud of.

Wont happen though, BA will got a legal route, they have played a very good game and fairly played too, they wont stoop at this point to BASSA levels and risk turning public opinion.

[Mr Optimistic]

That's interesting (beside it being 1972, thought it earlier): thanks - will do a little searching on this.

[citroman]

If my memory serves me right, I'm sure it was in one of the reports that someone had scrawled " Who is going to be God's representative on earth when Captain Keys passes away" on the back of one of the FD seats.

I think it was raised in the context of whether the FO would have opened his mouth if there was a problem.

Apologies if my recollection is faulty, it was some time ago!. I'll look up the info tomorrow.

Citroman

[Litebulbs]

As I understand it, employees would not be made redundant and then offered a new position on a reduced package. They would have their contract terminated and offered a new one. They would have been dismissed most probably under SOSR, not redundancy.

This may be a naive or insular view to some, but I have yet to be corrected on it.

[GemDeveloper]

Several posts have commented on the ultimate sanction of dismissal of the hard line strikers, and that this would be a Public Relations disaster for British Airways, even if re-engagement on new terms was offered concurrently.

Well, I am not so sure. It seems to me that BA, and their Chief Executive, are very well positioned to ride a tide of public opinion that is increasingly turning their way, witness the much more positive articles that appear in the press (and not just the Daily Wail). This tide is being helped along by the somewhat mis-judged efforts by BASSA, for example, the FT advert.

Managing to run an effective service with the non-strikers and the VCCs (all of whom I heartily salute as people who know what they want, and where they are going), only helps BA to sideline the militants. And if the strikes continue into the 'high summer', and give people any inkling that their holiday plans may be affected, then any remaining sympathy for the strikers that has not already evaporated on seeing the Pimms life style at Bedfont will rapidly disappear.

As for negotiating with BASSA... I am reminded of a long-running Labour Union negotiation that I was involved in overseas, many years ago. My summary of the position of the intractable Union: "They have no idea what they want, but they sure as hell know what they don't want" went down rather well with my HR Manager (who was of their nationality), who was trying to find some common ground to bring back to the Management Team.

[ExXB]

IMHO it would be a PR disaster if BA doesn't sack (or otherwise find a way to part company with) these people.

[johnoWhiskyX]

Litebulbs. My mistake, you are correct, just re-read my paperwork concerning our re-organisation.
If first offer of new contract is not signed then i am dismissed and immediately offered the same contract with no break in service. I then have 90 days to sign acceptance ( which can be appealed later).
don't know why offered same contract twice, but legal advice from union is do not sign the first as that is volountarily aggreeing to it, sign the second and it can be appealed as being signed under duress. Don't sign and advice is that whilst i could claim unfair dismissal there are no gaurentees it would be succesful.

[Diplome]

I see where the militant strikers are going to be meeting MPs today.

BBC News - British Airways cabin crew to meet MPs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10262091.stm)

Given their well publicized behavior I'm not sure how well the whining about BA creating a "climate of fear" will be received.

While dealing with the reality of a horrendous budget, constituents who are budgeting to make ends meet and high unemployment rates it would take a rather foolish MP indeed to come out with strong support for a group of well-paid individuals loathed by the vast majority of the U.K. public.

I expect some rather tepid "Would be best for the country if the parties could get together and resolve their differences" statements and not much more.

[Mariner9]

Unfortunately, by appealing to MPs (or to investors via FT adverts), BASSA/Unite show just how completely out of touch they are with outsiders' views of this dispute. They must believe they will get some sympathy otherwise they would have sensibly kept a low profile.

I hope the MPs tell them a few home truths. Whether BASSA/Unite would take any heed would appear to be doubtful.

[Diplome]

Mariner9:

I agree. If their behavior wasn't so destructive to BA and their co-workers I would almost have sympathy watching this mad scramble to find someone to save them from the consequences of their poor behavior.

But, their behavior has been that bad, their actions towards their professional and responsible Cabin Crew co-workers has been that disgusting...that sympathy went out the window awhile ago.

[Ancient Observer]

Diplome,

I realise that this is an open forum. However, one stands more chance of a reply from BA on here than one does from a letter to BA.
I'm one of those ex-long-standing BA Gold cardholders (earnt before I went in to the Aviation sector), that was promised "Silver for life", in order to keep us loyal to BA. BA's promise meant nothing, as soon as it had to honour its word, (not to me - to someone else, which impacted us all, including me) it simply broke its word. That group have never had a staightforward reply from BA. I don't go on about it on this forum, as I would become as boring as ex-speedbird. (He's been a bit quiet of late, I wonder if NZ has turned off his electrickery?)

On the broader front, I remain interested in BA's vision and action plan from when this BA CC stuff is all over.................. It could re-build itself with some new sort of model, or it could do a Sabena. I wonder which it will be.

[Diplome]

On the broader front, I remain interested in BA's vision and action plan from when this BA CC stuff is all over.................. It could re-build itself with some new sort of model, or it could do a Sabena. I wonder which it will be.


Ancient Observer:

It has certainly been an interesting process to observe. I found Mr. Walsh's deliberate and firm statement of yesterday intruiging. There is obviously a game plan in place and it does not include allowing Unite/BASSA to make the rules.

There's going to be a move made...but what move. No wonder I've never watched soaps when real life is so much more interesting :)

[pwalhx]

Two observations having flown to Hong Kong and back during the strike last week.

1. The flights were totally full, far from the empty flights trumpetted by the unions.

2. Having paid £4200 for 2 return tickets in WTP after leaving the aircraft on return to Heathrow on Saturday morning both myself and my colleague said in unison (sic) 'never again'

Saddens me to say it but having been overheard saying the latter there were several other passengers agreeing with us. Sorry to say it but better value is on offer elsewhere.

[The SSK]

To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself -- that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink..

George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four

[johnoWhiskyX]

Anyone noticed a slight change in the attitude of pro strikers? Half of the posts seem concilliatory and the other half seem intent on dredging up bad feeling between flight crew/cabin crew and anyone else they can drag into the argument.

Re the facebook pilots comments. Personally im very suspicious, either true, in which case the person made a huge error of judgement and will face the consequences of disciplinary.
or
It's a set up. I'm more inclined to believe a set up.

[Lou Scannon]

There does seem to be a common thread of atrocious spelling by the contributors!

[Neptunus Rex]

So, the last act is going to be Holley, McCluskey and Livingstone.
Will the 'Show' be over when La La sings?

[Diplome]

I'm rather surprised that neither Woodley or Simpson will be attending...and that McCluskey has come out of the woodwork.

Its like watching a game of hot potato. :) Everyone seems to be trying to pass off this fiasco to the next guy.

[LD12986]

A couple of things strike me (excuse the pun) about the Mirror story on VCC pilots and Facebook:

1. As a story it hasn't had legs. A Facebook faux pas story like this is one you would expect to spread like wildfire and be picked up by almost all other national media outlets. Aside from The Evening Standard, I haven't seen it covered in other media outlets. Perhaps because they think it doesn't stand up?

2. Neither Duncan Holley nor Unite have said a word about the story. Given all the vitriol directed at the pilots throughout this dispute you would have thought they would have seized on any failings of the VCC pilots and shouted about it from the rooftops. Why so quiet?

[baggersup]

Yes, LD, it is surprising.

But isn't Mr. Holley in tribunals all day today and therefore not "online?" Thought he said he'd be away from the situation (and Bedfont) today, and someone else would be providing the written update?

We'll see what his stand-in says today.

[Mariner9]

With regard to your point 2 LD, I don't see how BASSA could flag this issue up.

If they had made a big fuss over it, they could hardly insist on dropping disciplinary hearings for their own members' "Facebook misdemeanors".

Meanwhile, on the other thread, in his/her typically eloquent fashion, Watersidewonker had promised some further "bad" news in tomorrow's papers. (This post has since been removed).

I know the majority of WWW's ramblings/predictions are shall we say wide of the mark, but it will be interesting if a story does break tomorrow that BASSA knew about today....

[JayPee28bpr]

Let me chuck another idea at you for how WW deals with his ongoing problem.

What is to stop him simply ceasing to act as Unite's unpaid dues collector? From a date, say June 12th, he tells Unite that he won't allow union dues to be deducted from staff pay and paid over to Unite by BA. Not only does he cancel this for cabin crew, he does it for all Unite members at BA. Unite, certainly BASSA, has an immediate cash flow problem.

What he then does is wait for Unite/BASSA to issue another ridiculous strike ballot, and sends them a letter, saying: "we don't recognise you for collective bargaining anymore". Whether he chooses to do that just for CC or for all Unite bargaining agreements depends on just how sick and tired he is of the total embarrassment of a leadership function displayed by Woodley, Simpson & Co. Let's assume he does it just for BASSA.

Now there can be no legal strike because there is no Union to call for it. Put another way, how will Unite prove those voting in any IA ballot are actually members if it cannot show that, at the time of such ballot, they were up to date with their subscriptions? That is a requirement for participation, is it not?

BA can then also force Unite/BASSA to go through the statutory process to prove they have sufficient representation to force recognition on BA (40% isn't it?) going forward. Remember this is a Union which, generally, finds it impossible to run a legal ballot first time round. So, whilst facing a cash flow problem because they now need to get everyone to sign individual direct debit forms, Unite also have to run a recognition ballot. During this period, BA serve notice on all staff, and provide them with revised terms along the lines of the current offer. Except they don't offer anything to up to 2,000 (ie the number covered by BA's current HR1 submission) of the staff they don't want. Every solitary Union rep will, of course, conveniently fall within BA's chosen criteria for redundancy. And all will be out of the door well before Unite manages to organise its recognition ballot. If Unite resist in the CC section, BA simply derecognise Unite in every other department and force them to run expensive recognition ballots, which they are not guaranteed to win, elsewhere in the airline.

Oh, and let's consider this in the context of looming public expenditure cuts. How many members does Unite have in the public sector? How many of their jobs are under threat (my view is that at least 200,000 public sector jobs are going in this Parliament, possibly as many as 500,000)? And what's the financial cost to Unite assuming such persons either leave the Union or at least pay reduced subs whilst unemployed?

The amount of its members' money Unite has managed to p*ss away fighting the BA dispute is breathtaking. I totally agree with Duncan Holley on one thing. This dispute will go down in history: as the one with the highest cost per Union member for the least reward. It will be studied at business school for many many years to come not, unfortunately, for the reasons DH seems to think, however.

[baggersup]

So apparently Mr. Holley will not be continuing in the employment of BA.

When are the next rep elections for BASSA? I'm told that he can serve in his current position with the union, not being an employee of BA any longer, until the next elections at which time he cannot stand to be re-elected.

So, how much longer does Mr. Holley have in his current union position?

[Mariner9]

I don't think BA are definately rid of DH's valuable contributions (20 hours in 2 years wasn't it?) just yet.

As I understand it, today's tribunal was an attempt by DH to be reinstated pending a full tribunal hearing. It was held by the tribunal that he has little chance of sucess in a forthcoming full tribunal, so DH's application was refused.

Of course, a sensible chap would accept the judge's view of the likely sucess of further action and abandon it at this point. I rather suspect DH will continue his action though. In which case, BA still have 1 further hearing until they are definately shot of him. :rolleyes:

Personally, I wonder why all these moderate members of BASSA we keep hearing about don't call an EGM and attempt to vote him out.

[Litebulbs]

Interesting post.

Mr Walsh can do what he wants, whenever he wants. He might have to pay a sizeable amount of money for the actions however.

I will do some reading on checkoff and get back to you.

[Diplome]

Is anyone surprised?

Duncan Holley's application to Watford Employment Tribunal for reinstatement was dismissed today. Holley had applied to be reinstated pending a full hearing of his unfair dismissal claim against BA claiming that the sole or principal reason for his dismissal was his trade union membership and activities. He asked the Tribunal to order the continuation of his employment pending a full hearing of his case. BA claimed that the reason for the dismissal was Holley's refusal to go to work when rostered on a number of times in December.

Judge Ryan denied the request saying he felt it was more likely than not that BA would demonstrate at trial that Mr Holley's dismissal was because of his refusal to come to work to perform his rostered duties and his refusal to attend meetings with his manager. Amongst other things he said "The claimant is simply not entitled to take into his own hands the decision whether to work or not".

Gosh, BA are such bullies, expecting me to show up for work and such. Good luck with that argument Duncan, and can't wait for your next foodie report from Strike H.Q. :ok:

[baggersup]

Cannot get enough foodie reports, Diplome. Second helping, please?

And in future, this has opened a whole new area of entertainment. In days of yore, settled into 11A Club World, as we arose from the runway, used to be on page 3 of the Daily Wail, stuck into it until the coast (or the first drinks service, whichever came first).

Now? I'll be craning my neck out the window to see how many chips Mr. H has on his plate!

Woohoo!

[gr8tballsoffire]

Baggersup
Love your post....it was worth staying up so late for!!! Thank you.

[baggersup]

Glad you liked it!

Being an IR consultant in "real life" I don't take IR lightly.

Sorry if it seems so. But when the world is laughing at you, you've lost the battle (and credibility). And people tend to laugh at absurdists.

Will we ever fly over Bedfont again without thinking about those darned chips? NO! :-)))

My game plan? Can the champers. I envison an entire Club World cabin banging their fists on the folding trays, chanting in unison, "Pimms samosas! Pimms samosas! Pimms samosas! Pimms samosas!" until we are fulfilled. Riots might ensue.

(Well it's only 20:42 where I am so...)

Sweet dreams GMT-ers. Stay tuned for tomorrow's "installment." Argh.

p.s. FREE breakfast at 10 from Mr. Holley?? Great idea. Though "breakfast at 10" costs those of us in real life over 3000 pounds in Club World. And striking cabin crew are getting it for free? Shows the ruddy pecking order premium pax are in these days!

[gobfa]

Mariner9 said

Meanwhile, on the other thread, in his/her typically eloquent fashion, Watersidewonker had promised some further "bad" news in tomorrow's papers. (This post has since been removed).


I wonder if Duncan Holley's application for reinstatement being dismissed today caused the post retraction ?

[maliyahsdad2]

British Airways crew death blaze: Exhausted pair broke Thai hotel rules to light candle in hotel room - Exclusive - mirror.co.uk (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/06/09/ba-crew-death-blaze-115875-22320657/)

this might be the story he was talking about.

Strangely no mention of it anywhere else, and even if it did happen i can't see why the crew would be any more tired because they were working during the strike?

[Diplome]

That's a pretty darn pathetic stretch to try to connect that incident to the strike.

This one I'll simply dismiss.

[johnoWhiskyX]

Something highly sus'. Can't find any one else reporting this story other than the mirror, even google only adds a flyer talk forum link to the mirrors story.

[Diplome]

Johno..perhaps because its not a story.

The Mirror seems to be scraping the bottom of the barrel in an effort to find something, anything, to counteract the negativity of the striking cabin crew.

By the way, did any MP's rise up and forcefully defend the militant crew yesterday? Any cries from Labour of "United We Stand" or was it more of "Gee Whiz guys, can't you all just get along?"?

[Diplome]

...and the latest missive from BASSA


Day 21 comes to a close.
Jun 8th, 2010 by admin

You could sense a feeling of sadness beginning to descend on Bedfont today, almost like the last day before leaving school.

You could tell that people were beginning to be “nostalgic for the summer of Bedfont”; the spirit of friendship and kindness will be hard to leave behind.

Tomorrow is our last day of this particular dispute; we need to make it not only a good one, but also a big one.

Two significant press events today - the blatant hypocrisy and dual standards of the treatment of our cabin crew could not have been more apparent, when the Daily Mirror carried a report on page 18 entitled “Scabbin’ Crew”, where the much vaunted “volunteers” appeared to display not only an intense dislike of our customers - bordering on violence - but also of fellow crew and in particular, our gay community; perhaps they simply don’t have the necessary people skills required to be cabin crew after all. What is of as much concern is this pilot has been cleared to fly a 747. Not only would you not want this man to serve you in the cabin but would you trust him on a 747 cockpit? And, worryingly, it now appears there are others with similar views.

Click here to view the Daily Mirror article

The Daily Mail, Walsh’s poodle newspaper, instead preferred to carry its usual anti-cabin crew bombast. It’s fairly obvious to all that a solution needs to be found to this dispute - and soon. So to ensure that that isn’t made any harder than it already is, we won’t stoop to The Mail’s provocative, chest beating propaganda. Instead, we simply hope that a fair solution can be reached, for everybody’s sake.

A crew member striking for the first time today had gone to the trouble of printing her own t-shirt, with these poignant words on it:

“My proud sad day. The day has come to stand up tall, to be one with you.

To fight against the bully known as Willie Walsh.

I will not flounder, I will be strong.

My staff travel does not matter.

I will not hide upon the bus, as I know this is wrong.

Instead I stand with you, so all can see.

I am a XXXX striker and now at last I am proud.”

Says it all really - see you tomorrow at Bedfont? We hope so - it’s your last chance to show the strength of your feeling.

[ChicoG]

From the Mirror:

Three Ba pilots were yesterday suspended after branding passengers "w*****s", "f*****s" and "t***s". The Mirror revealed their tirade on Facebook. One called cabin crew "bum bandits".

[fincastle84]

Unite/ Bassa must be getting desperate at the lack of publicity for the dispute. Even the lovies at the BBC have stopped reporting from BFC & Sky gave up ages ago.Yesterday's wasted trip to see the MPs has even gone unreported.

Just like a fire starved of oxygen splutters & dies so does IA which is only of importance to a few militant protagonists. Eventually Pprune will suffer from a lack of postings & the Mods will be able to take a well earned vacation.:cool:

[Diplome]

fincastle:

Good morning.

I agree, this strike seems to be ending with a rather half-hearted sigh of resignation.

At the end you get the feeling people are really only showing up for the burgers and mimosas, and rather than discussing BA and their outrage they are down there talking about that cute little pair of shoes at Marks and Spencer.

[Lou Scannon]

We will know that Mr Walsh acknowledges his victory when he authorizes the seat sale to make up for the poor bookings that BASSA have caused over the past few months.

That will be the start of getting the company back on its feet.

[Snas]

Today's Daily Mirror (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/06/08/ba-pilots-post-shocking-foul-mouthed-rants-on-facebook-over-cabin-work-after-breaking-strike-115875-22317731/) highlights some of the foul-mouthed comments posted on the crewforum website.


The Daily Mirror says Facebook, Unites web site, quoted above, says Crewforum web site - which is it I wonder?

[fincastle84]

As the story was published by the Daily Mirror it hardly matters as to which website because the story should be taken with a pinch of salt.

In the unlikely event that it's true then I'm sure that the errant individuals will be subjected to the same strictures that were applied to the CC earlier in the summer, & quite rightly so IMHO.

[BEagle]

Very stupid of those childish pilots to post the drivel which the Mirror has reported.... If they actually did, of course.

But they won't need to fill the role of VCC for much longer as it won't be long now until the bassassins get their comeuppance.

Keep strong, Willie!!

[gr8tballsoffire]

Fincastle
I also looked at this with a healthy dose of cynicism, but sadly it appears to be true and it is only right that these guys are treated no differently to the other inappropriate Facebook posters.

[Airclues]

This could come back to bite BASSA, if the 'suspended pilots' were to publicise the statements made by the strikers on facebook, as part of their defence. So far BA has not released details of the charges against the suspended strikers in compliance with the Disciplinary Procedures. However, avid readers of the other thread will have seen them (before they were deleted).

[Diplome]

Aircastle:

I'm not sure "Someone else did worse" is much of a defense.

The best news out of this situation is that it proves that the disciplinary process is there for ALL BA employees and serves a positive purpose.