BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions

[Mariner9]

No mention of ST in the BA offer shown on the "official" thread.

PS: Fin, that Union message you posted has already been posted on this thread by Wascrew a few posts back. Hence my earlier comments regarding its contents.

[Mariner9]

There is an interesting insight into the mindset of BASSA supporters on the other thread.

BA's offer says:
There are firm commitments on your pay, your individual contracts, your lifestyle choices and your future career opportunities.
Your pay won’t be cut
Your contract won’t change
You won’t be forced to move fleets
You won’t lose all the best routes to a new fleet

(my bold)

But pro-IA Reargunner interprets this as:

As far as I can see, accepting this deal means I will keep my existing T&C until New Fleet is fully operational then I will lose all of it. I will be told there is no work for my existing job and put into Careerlink.

The redeployment agreement I will have just accepted gives me 3 months on full basic to find a new vacancy. Then 3 further months on 75% of that basic and then a further 3 months on 50% etc. So, if New Fleet is still growing and recruiting I can apply for a job there or leave.

If I strike, and it is not supported by a lot of cabin crew, then in June the company can terminate all cabin crew contracts and offer new ones with 90 days notice.

As far as I can see, there is very little between the two threats to my livelihood

Given that mindset, it is clear that whatever BA offer, it will not be considered believable, and therefore unacceptable. Reargunner appears to consider that the virtual certainty that his/her contract will be terminated in June is equally as likely as BA going back on their word, so he/she has little to lose by continuing IA :ugh:

[4t2b]

"That is correct. Staff Travel is awarded after six months continuous service."

This is a quote off the other thread and I suppose indicates that after 6 months of loss of ST (April to October) affected CC will have "earned" it back, albeit at the starter level ?

Wotcha fink ?:ok:

[Mariner9]

CC may feel they have earned ST back after 6 months, but do you think its likely that WW will restore a non-contractual benefit having said he would not? Doubt it personally.

[LD12986]

According to Tony Woodley's letter, the company is prepared to restore ST to commuters and to strikers (but with no accumulated seniority):

. Tony Woodley letter (http://www.uniteba.com/Woodletter.html)

[Mariner9]

Interesting link LD.

So WW is prepared to change his mind on ST provided his demands are met. (I suspect he knows they will not be)

One would have thought that a Union would have a duty to advise their members the pros and cons of further IA when inviting them to vote on the subject, but I note Mr Woodley avoids mentioning the very real possibility of termination after 12 weeks.:=

I await the next installment with interest.

[Snas]

This then leads on to the third and most general consideration why I ask you to reject the offer. It is this – any agreement is only as good as the integrity and sincerity of those putting their names to it. By their actions and behaviour throughout the dispute, and continuing to this day, it is impossible to take BA management’s words at their face value.



...here is the rub, it doesnt matter what BA offer, we wont accept anything and we wont believe anything.

[pencisely]

Sounds like more IA ahead, as a regular BA Club World SLF I welcome it. Next trips are LHR DEL in mid May and truly hope they fall in the next declared strike periods.

If so I fully expect BA to get me to DEL and look forward to engaging with the high morale of the CC and VCC on baord.

Sounds like WW proposed concessions are more than anyone deserves showing what a fair man he really is.

In perspective is it not the case that CC main purpose is to serve the coffee? Similar main purpose to those working in Coffee Costa in T5? Difference being that serving coffee on the A/C seems to have more leverage with BA in that Regs say flying without coffee servers is unsafe??

This gives obvious leverage to the in flight coffee serving in that no coffee = no flight. A fact fully exploited by the airborne coffee servers (ACS) as opposed to the ground based coffee servers (GBCS).

If in any doubt please compare average remuneration of the ACS versus the GBCS - same coffee different altitude!

[Snas]

Pencisley - I trust that an element of your post is tounge in cheek?

Many of the "coffee servers" are a lot more than that. I know it's not a skilled job (in the usual accepted def) but it isnt the same as working in the local coffee bean store, it really isnt.

My own partner is a Purser and takes her job very seriously indeed as witnessed by the many hours she spends at home in study to ensure that she is knowledgble on every aspect of the service, destinations, SEP etc, to the benefit of the customer and company alike.

--------

OK, now I've done my defender bit, this is more interesting from the other thread: -


I'm delighted that we all now have an opportunity to vote on the offer in an email sent to all of us from Willie Walsh late this evening.
If you are not a member of UNITE like myself, you can do this via a link on the ESS homepage under IFCE, The Way Forward - Have your say on your future.



On the ST front, any thoughts that it's return was offered on the belief that the offer would be rejected and brownie points scored for making it must be reviewed on the basis that he's expecting the non union crew to vote yes...

But, will some non union crew vote no to prevent ST return, there are some strong views out there on it after all.

Let's see eh...

[kenhughes]

On the ST front, any thoughts that it's return was offered on the belief that the offer would be rejected and brownie points scored for making it must be reviewed on the basis that he's expecting the non union crew to vote yes...

The letter from Willie Walsh specifies that for ST to be restored, the Way Forward agreement must be ratified by union members.

1. Acceptance of the agreement

Obviously the Way Forward agreement needs to be ratified by a ballot of all members. We would expect all parts of the union to communicate in a balanced way during this balloting period.


The way I read it is, (and I could be mistaken), if union members reject the agreement, but non-union members accept it, ST will not be restored but, presumably, in the case of the majority of CC accepting the agreement, it (The Way Forward), will still be implemented - without restoration of ST?

[ChicoG]

If I am correct, the offer refers to a fixed monthly payment instead of allowances based on the actual trips you do.

This only penalises those who regularly (and unfairly) get more than the average number of juicy, high paying trips. And if we take a guess at who they are, one can only assume that the BASSA leadership will be against this for personal reasons.

[Mariner9]

I agree Chico. There's a similar argument regarding the Union's stance concerning ST return. It discriminates unfairly (they say) against senior staff, even though the offer restores ST to those who most need it (the commuters). Sod the majority, protect the BASSA reps appears to be the stance taken :hmm:

[etrang]

Does anyone know when the results of the ballot will be announced?

Edited to add: Apparently it ends 6th May. Results announced soon after, presumably.

[Python21]

The online ballot ends at midnight on 6th May so my guess is that the result will be announced shortly after that of the General Election!

P21

[vanHorck]

or does it finish on the 6th so that the outcome can be buried somewhere in the election results?

[Final 3 Greens]

If it ends 6 May, then a strike is is no longer a pre-election embarrassment to Unite, Labour or Gordon Brown.

Look out for a REJECT outcome and further planned IA.

One of the drivers for this is that people can vote 'yes ' and then change their minds and work.

So why not poke Wilie/the company with a pointed stick? (looking from the other point of view.)

[The SSK]

There’s a lot of talk about resentment within the company if ST is restored, but bear in mind that as long as it is without seniority, all those ‘resenters’ will always be ahead of those who have got their ST back, in the standby queue.

With load factors the way they are these days, ST with no seniority won’t get you anywhere, except maybe Glasgow (where many of the commuters are based).

As one who has a BA ST entitlement, I am naturally delighted that hundreds if not thousands who were ahead of me no longer are. Whilst I applauded the removal of their privileges, the fact that they would be back on rung zero of the ladder doesn’t bother me.

[Ancient Observer]

Whilst I fully understand some of the "simple" responses and views on this thread, and fully understand the frustrations of all the logical thinkers, there does remain the fact that BA CC have been lead by truly average -maybe less than that - managers for 20 to 30 years.

For instance
1. - Apparently, not a single CSD has been fired, for over 20 years for producing poor customer service.
2. For many years the sickness absence of BA CC was averaging over 20 days per person per annum, and no-one bothered to manage that. Taking a sickie was an entitlement. (Normal private sector sickness absence for white collar workers is 4 to 6 days per annum.)
3. The "manager" always rang the TU to ask for permission to do something that was outwith the "industrial" agreements, and always meekly accepted what the Union demanded. There was often extra money for very, very, minor things.
4. BA could not predict the working hours of staff with any degree of accuracy, which lead to massive CC overmanning.
5. The "Spanish" practices were actually encouraged by the immediate foreman/manager - the CSD.

I could go on - that's enough.

So you are crew. You know that WW will be gone in a couple of years, off to a better CEO job with a decent Company, with better share options.

The middle managers have not yet all been fired - so you know that as soon as WW goes, all the old practices will return. That Aussie PhD was brought in to reform BA - nothing much changed. Altho' he got us some more very lucrative trips to India. All will revert to normal once WW has gone.

Wouldn't you think carefully about all that and decide to be logical, prudent, and sensible about the future of your job?? - Best to stick with the people who are really running BA - otherwise known as Bassa, and ignore all this temporary kerfuffle that WW is causing????.

Bassa are clearly the "Executive" of BA's CC Department, and have been for 20 to 30 years.
Why read anything sent by BA?? I'll keep reading the comms from the real Executive - Bassa.

Food for thought.

[MPN11]

AO - a depressing prospect you painted there. I can see the thinking behind it.

Time to join "Sir Beard's Flying Club", I think. Neither I, nor my company, are going to put up with more of the same nausea.

So, at some point, BASSA will be without an employer, and presumably be parading down the streets protesting about the levels of unemployment benefit. How sad: how pointless.

[Entaxei]

Why do so many posters on both threads appear to expect WW to vanish from the scene once the CC situation and BASSA has been resolved, (at least for this time). He has taken on a moribund operation, arising from mis-management, public ownership and practices dating back at least to the 1960's, and has started to convert it into a commercial operation, which nobody has previously had the guts to do.

There is still a long way to go, even without the challenges that the merger will bring and whatever problems lie within the current Iberia organisation (which no doubt Unite are eyeing up as opportunities for European expansion).

In the current situation I would think that from the personal level, there are enough challenges ahead to provide WW a very satisfying opportunity to guide and achieve an organisation which is a leader in its field, in modern organisation, customer and shareholder satisfaction and, in staff management, relations and rewards.

Granted that Utophia does take time, its still worth trying. :ok:

[somewhereat1l]

Just a general questions but as BASSA is the elected body to negotiate the collective agreement amongst the crew can BA legally ballot non union members and implement changes based on that ballot?

Here in Oz QANTAS for instance could ballot crew (union members or not) to get an idea of the feeling amongst the crew but to officially make changes it would have to be a ballot run by the union, therefore non union member would not have a say.

[ChicoG]

BA can ask its staff whatever it likes, and do whatever it likes with the response, but in my opinion I'm sure it's more of an exercise of getting their side out there.

AO is right in as much as the stupid BASSA hive mind will be told to reject the offer, and will do so, lemming style, without really knowing why they are doing it.

Most of them are too :mad: dumb to understand the situation their "leaders" have put them in anyway.

And let's face it, a hung parliament is not going to waste too much time getting involved in a minor labour dispute, so they'll probably let BA finish the job off.

The only sensible solution is to accept the offer before more damage is done; those that don't will absolutely deserve what they get. I do feel that WW will not penalise everyone, and is doing a good job of sorting out the wheat from the retarded BASSA chaff.

Contrary to much of the mainstream media coverage of the strikes painting unions as "unreasonable," Mr Woodley asserted to cabin crew: "We stand for a proper partnership with British Airways going forward, based on mutual respect and shared values.

"Such a scenario is unattainable on the basis of the offer before you, against the background which I have explained. That is why, while urging you to examine the offer carefully, I ask you to reject it and empower your negotiators to return to the company to seek the changes required on travel concessions and discipline."

What utter nonsense these people spout.

[just an observer]

In The Way Forward BA says - We have provided protection for security of earnings, having agreed a new monthly travel payment, that consolidates existing variable payments for Heathrow fleets. The payment will be based on the average of the 2008 schedule. The company will adjust the monthly travel payment each year, in line with base pay.

On the other thread, MissM says - MTP seems like a good deal but it also says that it will be adjusted every year and based on the flight schedule. As routes go over to New Fleet there will be a reduction in flights on both EF and WW and logically the MTP rate would also be decreased.

I know MissM visits here occasionally, and I can't post there, but I'd like to know how from BA's words, she gets her interpretation?

As I see it, the adjustment if anything will be upwards in line with whatever % rise there is in basic pay. The starting amounts are based on the 2008 schedule and then get adjusted in line with basic pay, not on the 'old fleet' flight schedule as it reduces. Nowhere does BA say it will be adjusted according to the flight schedule, it specifically says in line with basic pay. Is this interpretation being pushed on the BASSA forum?

[harrypic]

Interesting to see that even Unite agree that the new offer addresses cc concerns and is a fair offer (although not as good as last summers offer :ugh:)

Unites reasons for not recommending, ie disipline hearings (some of which criminal investigations are underway :ugh:), re-istatement of non contractual staff travel perk with seniority (without seniority is in the offer) and that you can't beleive anything BA management say - ludicrous....

It shows a real lack of proffessionalism, not just from BASSA but now but Unite as well, Britains biggest Union - all you other Unite members out there, how do you feel about them making a IA condition upon letting off some of the people you saw bullying and harrasing on the Aurora video's et al....?

And the rhetoric on the Unite website and press releases - reminds me of "Red Robbo" and "Arthur Scargill" - these guys are still living in the '70s - not in a world financial crisis!!!!!

But, it does seem to me BA Mgt are getting their ducks in a row - after 12 weeks they can justify sacking all strikers if they show they have tried to reach a reasonable settlement......Unites rejection reasons of a fair offer (disipline hearings, ST and "their liars") just plays into BA's hands should it come to that outcome.....

Girls and guys - it's your future not mine, make sure your well informed and make the right choice....your reason for striking ie "imposition" has been re-solved and your concerns addressed - your now potentially striking to save 50 disipline hearings and some senior CSD crews benefits......

The end game is approaching and one side is holding P45's.....whats Unite holding now - indefinate strike? BA have the VCC's to handle that now with a full schedule.....

[harrypic]

"This then leads on to the third and most general consideration why I ask you to reject the offer. It is this – any agreement is only as good as the integrity and sincerity of those putting their names to it. By their actions and behaviour throughout the dispute, and continuing to this day, it is impossible to take BA management’s words at their face value"

So, that means, if BA came back with an offer that disapeared the disipline hearings, reinstated staff travel, paid cc min £500k a year and gave them 1st class seating priority on any flight, no new fleet, a weeks layover for disruption, only 5 star hotels and 51 weeks a year holiday.....Unite would still have to reject it as it's "impossible to take BA managements words at their face value".........:ugh:

For a very serious subject, that affects 10,000 peoples finances, mortgages, careers and well being, I am disappointed in that playground comment from Unite - do they not understand the implications to 1000's of crew?

[4t2b]

Well at least this length of strike should give all CC a chance to actually demonstrate support or rejection of the Unions leadership. Surely all of them should be rostered to report to work in that time frame ??:D

[ChicoG]

Not long now until much of the BASSA dead wood is removed, even if they don't care who they are sending out of the trenches on their behalf.

And yet still we don't have anyone brave enough to tell us how many BASSA reps there are, and how many avoided striking and the subsequent loss of ST by being downroute, off sick or not scheduled to work.

My guess is it's a much higher number than your rank and file BASSA member know, but do they have the conojes to actually ask?

How these BASSA reps have got away with the irreparable damage they have done to their members, I have no idea.

it really is a case of Accept the deal and look after yourself, or Reject the deal and look after the reps - who basically don't give a stuff about you anyway.

[Diplome]

4t2b:

Good point. Also good to remember that the pay lost will not just be for that 10-12 day period.

How many additional crew members are willing to risk loss of Staff Travel, a huge hit to their checkbooks, and the potential of eventual dismissal for purposes of saving the positions of a few BASSA reps?

[MPN11]

I'm with Baggers

I'm flying BA on 18/19 May. The GOOD people in BA will keep the airline operating ... and the diminishing numbers of headless chickens may rampage around Bedfont as I fly over them.

Eventually, they will realise how much their "Reps" have cost them. Although the probability {IMO] is that the hard-core militants are hobby-jobbers anyway, with not much to lose except cheap holiday flights for themselves, family, friends, the dog ....

Or am I being unfair?



FLYING BA

[Ancient Observer]

I still think that some of the posters on here and on the crew thread are missing the point.

In my post 1271 I tried to "think" my way in to the Bassa mindset.

In crude summary, they really do not care about all this short term kerfuffle that WW has started.

In a couple of years, he'll have left to get a decent package somewhere else - maybe tax free in Emirates/Etihad, (0 tax rather than 50% tax) and all the old practices will be restored.

Most of the previous managers are still in place, and their grovelling approach to Bassa will be re-instated. No-one will get hot towels, not just in WT+.
Those fired by the WW regime will all get their jobs back, and Bassa will continue to be the real Executive for BA CC. The managers will grovel like they used to.

Bassa are takingthe 30 year view - WW is just taking a year by year view.

If BA really want to change they need to do what the old British Gas did, and remove the vast majority of the top 3 layers, and they need to import lots of non-Aviation types, who know about customer service.
(One of those removed in the BG purge is a "Director" in Aviation).

Can you imagine Tesco, Dulux, B & Q or Carphone Warehouse ringing up their "Union" (ifthey have one) asking the Union's permission to help customers??

BA are still doing that!!!! - they asked the Union for their permission to rescue customers and staff stuck in HKG. Complete madness.

[MPN11]

@ AO ... I am completely with you in your Doomsday scenario.

My only reservation is whether the intellectual dwarves of BASSA and Unite actually think that deeply. Do you honestly think they take a 30-year view? From my reading over the last 6 months, they wouldn't recognise a buffer if they were perched on the front of a train. I suspect you give them credit for 79.7% more intelligence than they actually have.

[ChicoG]

We get abused on, and are banned from the other thread for daring to state that it isn't that hard to be member of cabin crew - in any role.

I know cabin crew who have done CC work on their gap year because it's a cheap way of doing what they want to do - travel. They have degrees and are more qualified than half of the muppets that now "run" BASSA.

Unfortunately, the old guard that run BASSA don't give a :mad: about the people that have joined BA CC in the last five or ten years.

Look forward 30 years? Give me a break, they can't look past their next lucky break. If the job was that :mad: and they could get one that paid that well and had added bonuses like partying a lot and lots of duty free, they would have taken it.

Time to give the jobs to people that deserve it, rather than the people who have frankly got so tired and expectant that they think they can do what they like and still get a wage packet that would satisfy people far more capable and interested.

The old hand BA cabin crew were bringing BA down a lot earlier than credit crunches and volcanic ash clouds.

[LD12986]

AO - I doubt BASSA have the intellect to think like that. WW isn't going anywhere. He will be CEO of the BA/Iberia Topco and I can't see the new BA Opco CEO Keith Williams (currently CFO) being much different in approach.

To give an indication of how New Fleet could render BASSA redundant, look at what happened after the ash cloud disruption.

BA wanted to fly an additional empty aircraft to HKG with a crew to bring stranded passengers back home, but with the 2 night stop reduced to 1 night. BASSA said no because CC would be "operating" on the empty outbound flight (an aircraft with a full complement of crew and no passengers must be such hard work!), instead of just positioning.

So what happened? BA crewed the flight largely with volunteer cabin crew and existing CC lost work (the first sign of the law of unintended consequences from the strike contingency plans).

When New Fleet gains critical mass (which given the fact there is no seniority and fewer supervisory positions, is unlikely to be heavily unionised) with none of the restrictive practices enjoyed by current CC, BASSA's negotiating strength will diminish hugely. When it comes to new routes, product changes, disruption, if they don't play ball they will be sidelined.

If BASSA were really playing the long game they would have seen that the biggest threat to their influence (which is what this dispute is really about) is New Fleet and they would have negotiated over BA's initially (by comparison) very modest proposals and negotiated hard to obtain assurances that there would be no New Fleet.

[ChicoG]

If BASSA were really playing the long game

An interesting choice of words, LD. Looking at the some of the actions taken by BASSA militants (stupid underpants, porno websites, photoshopped pictures of WW), you get the impression that they think they actually are playing a game.

Which probably explains why they've made such an absolute mess of things.

:ok:

[Ancient Observer]

The lack of intellect at bassa is a fair point. However, BA has got the TU that it deserves. Bassa believes that if it ignores this short term stuff, the old ways will soon return.
Weak, spineless and ignorant managers are their main problem.
No TU would have prospered as well as bassa have done if the managers had been even vaguely competent. 30 years of monumentally incompetent managers have given bassa their powerbase.

I am not at all surprised that BA CC just ignore BA comms., and only read what bassa send out. That approach has done well for them over the last 30 years.

Unless WW removes most of the old guard of BA CC managers, and imports decent customer service managers from high quality customer service companies, then his changes will have no long term impact.

As to him leaving, his earnings are very restricted at BA. If he worked for TPG, for instance, (private equity who own large slugs of Aviation stock, and whose founder chairs Ryan), the he would earn about 20 times his BA package.
I bet he won't be at BA in 3 years time. Topco is just too small a job for him, paying too little in a high-tax country. Hogan will be leaving Etihad in a year or two. Just the right job for WW.

[ChicoG]

Hogan will be leaving Etihad in a year or two. Just the right job for WW.

That will be when he's ready to retire from proper management then.

:}

[MPN11]

@ AO ... Unless WW removes most of the old guard of BA CC managers, and imports decent customer service managers from high quality customer service companies, then his changes will have no long term impact.


From what I read here and on other Forums, the catering side needs some new management blood as part of that equation.

However, I digress. ;)

[Ancient Observer]

"However, I digress" -

You don't want to make a meal of it?

OK - I'll get back to Jet Blast.

[just an observer]

One of the CC posters on the other thread seems to think the real argument is about a 'new' redeployment agreement! The fact that the offer to CC has no mention of any revised redeployment agreement, so they wouldn't be signing to up to anything re that, and that if BA wants to do this (as well it might) it will need to be company wide as was the Pension agreement, seems to have escaped him/her.

Agreed any new redeployment agreement may well need serious union attention, but that is not what the current strike is about. But it seems that BASSA may have succeeded in making CC vote on the basis of something that has not happened yet - and if it does Unite who represent many BA staff (as opposed to BASSA who represent CC only) genuinely need to negotiate from a position of strength, which BASSA is undermining.

[PAXboy]

baggersupYup, classic misdirection techniqueIt has worked so darn well for Tony Blair all these years - why shouldn't other people use it too?

Heck, many in the USA thought that Saddam had instigated 9/11 attacks when it was only about the oil - and George Jr wanting to give a bl00dy nose to the man who gave a bl00dy nose to his daddikins. Boys will be boys.

[Pohutu]

Paxboy

Heck, many in the USA thought that Saddam had instigated 9/11 attacks when it was only about the oil


Interesting that you should use this as an example bearing in mind this (http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/evidence-based-smear-campaigns/#more-1615) recent research, which showed that, for people who believed that Iraq had WMD, providing them with corrective information showing that that was not the case had the effect of strengthening the original belief. Which probably goes a long way to explaining why those on each side of the BA dispute don't tend to get very far when debating on this forum!

Pohutu

[jethrobee]

Just seen on the BBC news site that BASSA rep Duncan Holley has been fired for gross misconduct.

I wonder if this is a flex of muscle by BA before the vote is closed......

[Entaxei]

Goes to prove the old adage .............. Never bite the hand(s) that feed you ..................... The've got the turkey, but where's BASSA going to get Holley at Christmas now.

Be interesting to see what other fallout comes about. :E

[ChicoG]

And the looney lefties at the Socialist Worker squeal like little piglets once more:

British Airways has escalated its war against cabin crew.

Today BA sacked Duncan Holley, secretary of Bassa, the cabin crew section of the Unite union. He held the position for 12 years.

Duncan has been one of the people leading the struggle against BA boss Willie Walsh’s attacks on workers. BA claims it has sacked him for “gross misconduct”.

In reality it is waging war against the union in an attempt to ram through cuts.

Duncan’s sacking is a deliberate provocation to cabin crew. It is further proof that Walsh is not interesting in resolving the dispute. Instead, he is throwing petrol on the fire.

Unite’s leadership must launch a campaign for Duncan’s reinstatement immediately. His reinstatement should be added to the list of demands that cabin crew are already fighting for in their dispute with BA.


Cabin crew must not stand for the victimising of their union reps. They must intensify their demands for a lengthy, hard-hitting strike that can bring down Willie Walsh.

BA are not backing down over the disciplinaries and they are not up for negotiation. Surely sacking the Branch Secretary on the final day of the ballot should get the message through their thick and rather empty skulls?

They really are just a little bit thick, aren't they?

[Snas]

I wonder if this is a flex of muscle by BA before the vote is closed......


It’s either timed to be lost in election coverage news, or to send a message to CC on the last day of their poll, or the natural conclusion of a fair disciplinary hearing – I guess each side of the issues at hand will take their pick as to which it is.

[Diplome]

Snas:

Taking BASSA's comments prior to the hearing, and Mr. Holley's commentary afterwards I'm going to go out on a limb and say I believe this was probably the result of a routine disciplinary hearing.

Mr. Holley is not giving any vigorous defense in his statements, certainly hasn't said that BA didn't have cause for the firing, and is only crying that it was "retalitory".

The interesting question is that given that Mr. Holley shows up for his Cabin Crew duties so rarely how did they notice he was gone :)

[PAXboy]

Thanks for the link Pohutu, I do know that site and have read his book.

I am not surprised that people are entrenched in their views. One of the aspects of human nature that I have noted with amusement is that, when politicians (say) find that their policies are not working, they do not say. "Let's think about this" but "What we need is MORE of the same, we're just not being strong enough" and "One last shove".

The same may be said to apply to trades unionists. Which means that they are human after all. :ooh:

[Dawdler]

From the "other" thread: Allegedley DH wanted 6 days off, (before Christmas) but BA said he couldn't have six days. DH decided to take 6 days anyway, thereby being absent from work without appropriate authority. Self-induced problem? My bold.

Those six days wouldn't have co-incided with the proposed strike by any chance - er would they?

[MPN11]

Dawdler, you might think that - I couldn't possibly comment.

However, granting Mr Holley time off to concentrate on his efforts to damage BA seems an 'interesting' management conundrum!

[fincastle84]

I imagine that Mr Holley's hearing was the best prepared hearing in the history of BA. Presumably that's why it's taken so long to come to fruition, to give time for the legals to cross the 'Ts' & dot the 'Is'.

[LD12986]

The latest from Unite is that a 20 day strike is on the cards.

BA cabin crew threaten 20-day strike as relationship with unions plummets | Business | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/06/ba-20-day-strike)

[ninja-lewis]

My farfetched theory is that his dismissal is at the behest of Unite. They fear they're about to lose the ballot but they're powerless to do anything as BASSA have the final say. But decapitate BASSA by getting BA to remove the cancer and they have the opportunity to extricate themselves by magnanimously accepting CC opinion.

[jethrobee]

I think 20 day strike is just unbelievable after the mess that was the 12 day's of Christmas, how can the unite union not expect the company to go back to court and succeed in blocking this action.

They are openly trying to bring down the airline, one wonders how many of the cabin-crew can actually afford a 20 day strike.

I think if I was in Mr Walsh's shoes I would be looking seriously at going after the union, maybe the airline can make some punitive damages claims against the union based on the disproportionate nature of the action.

I am now feeling glad to have booked my next 4 long haul business class work trips on alternative airlines. Not so for the crew that continue to come to work, but sometimes you just have to look after your own business.

[MPN11]

@ ninja-lewis ... what an interesting perspective!!

But why should the top echelon of Unite care, one way or another?

Election Result ...
Labour win, Unite retain leverage with £££
Tories win, Unite retain leverage through fear.
LibDems win, Unite retain leverage though experience.
Hung Parliament, Unite retain leverage through 'private discussions'.

One vociferous trouble-making cabin crew is nothing, compared with the ability of Unite to run the country [one way or another].

[fincastle84]

Yes, a Conservative government will willingly take on Unite. The unions today wield nothing like the power that they did when Maggie came to power in '79 & remember what she did to them.

[MPN11]

Sadly, Finky, I doubt that 'Dave" is another 'Maggie'.

And the way the various Unions have rolled up into over-arching organisations means that there are endless pressure-points they can apply ... whilst being funded by huge numbers of loyal subscription-payers waiting for their turn at the National Trough.

Ooops, bit political there. Sorry.

[Dairyground]

Something that was mentioned fairly often a few weeks (months?) ago was the long time EF cabin crew had to spend in T5 between flights. This was described as a legacy from the days when they could not eat on the aircraft and also had to leave the LHR central area to use a staff restaurant somewhere on the periphery. It was suggested that many crew would welcome the chance to reduced the enforced idleness and thus the length of many working days and that the airline could make significant cost savings from such a reduction. Then the topic seemed to drop out of discussion.

Is my recollection correct, and are Eurofleet savings the next thing to come under the WW microscope, and the next thing to upset (what remains of) the BASSA leadership?

[ChicoG]

More clutching at straws from the BASSA website (my bold):

We need to ask for your help..

Today is the last day to have the opportunity to cast your vote and determine your own future.

You stand at a crossroads and the decisions you take in casting your vote will shape both your own and everybody else’s future.

No it’s not in the general election! Its on YOUR trade union website. The decision you make there will affect you far more personally and directly than who ever ends up in Government.

There is an offer on the table. Your union recommends that you do not accept it. Incredibly some people have voted to accept it, which is of course is their choice but it is clear that they have done so without any explanation or understanding of what it will mean to them and everyone else!

So we need your help. If every person who reads this makes just a small effort, talks to just one other person and gets them to vote, the impact will be massive.

Need an example. How about “Monthly travel payment” what’s the motivation behind that?

Simple, it’s a short term diversion to distract you! ….To make you less bothered as your routes and work is moved to new fleet, double nights go, best routes go…. But that’s okay, because for a time you still get your “Monthly payment”

For how long? That’s right it doesn’t say…

And...

Duncan Holley

Today Duncan Holley BASSA Branch Secretary was sacked from British Airways as a Eurofleet CSD.

This has happened solely because of his other role as the branch secretary of our union and stemmed from a “new” interpretation by cabin crew management surrounding the agreed rights of recognized union officers to be released to undertake union duties over a handful of days in late December, last year.

Duncan is a man that has encompassed the core values of our union for longer than most people can remember!

Something you learn very early as a union rep is that it’s easy to have opinions. It’s less easy to stand up for them. It’s easy to recount what you would tell management to do and where to ‘shove it’ in a bar or restaurant down route. It’s less than easy in real life. Often those that shout the loudest are furthest from the fight.

Duncan Holley was an exception to that rule. He has always had the strongest opinions and principles possible, but at the same time, he was what you would have expected him to be - utterly fearless and unafraid to represent your views to our management, and if they were not prepared to listen, then he would make sure they did.

There are no shades of grey with Duncan. He is “black and white”. If it’s right, it’s right and if it’s wrong, then it’s wrong and he never hesitates to tell anybody who needs to know that.

He inherited those principles from his predecessor Mike Coleman- who was also sacked by British Airways around the time of the 1997 dispute. He inherited a strong union but under his leadership there is no doubt, we are even stronger.

His integrity and strength, but above all courage is second to none. Duncan is a pillar of this union, and without leaders like him, this union would not function.

Despite the huge shadow this has cast over both him and the toll on his family for nearly 6 months, he has never once put his interest above the interest of our members or asked for any extra consideration. If a deal could be found that protected you our members he was content with that, regardless of his own fate. He has always put the interests of something he believes in with all his heart first - he believes that cabin crew are good people, who deserve the best. He does his utmost to try and get that for you - Ultimately it has cost him his job, but being the man he is, he would have it no other way.

People often ask “what has the union ever done for me?”
Take a look at Duncan Holley and you will see exactly what the union and its reps are doing for you! Take a moment and watch the “something inside so strong” video. Reflect on the image of Duncan on a spring morning less than two years ago and see what he has now given for this union. Nobody could have given or sacrificed more, without people like Duncan, we simply would not have a union.

He does not deserve to be treated in this way...

Well he shouldn't have taken time off work when he was told not to, should he? It's a sackable offence in my company, too.

[fincastle84]

It look as though my comments about DC are now irrelevant anyway.

From the previous post it strikes me that Bassa are uncertain that they are going to receive a mandate for further industrial action. Maybe the CC have at long last seen the writing on the wall. Fingers crossed for all concerned.

[MPN11]

My fingers are firmly crossed for the future of BA ... and indeed the Nation.

The £/$ has already reacted; I expect much worse news in the days ahead. Poor Britain.

[Alsacienne]

If these strikes go ahead, with the uncertainty of the volcanic ash situation, you might as well start planning BA's state funeral for the near future ...

[Mariner9]

I wonder when Unite will announce the result? Given that it was an on-line vote, the answer should already be available to them.

Edit: Indeed it was. It seems that the deal has been rejected.

Based on Unite's language to date, they will fail to recommend any offer BA make on the grounds that BA can't be trusted.

Only one possible outcome from now on then - further strikes until SOSR/dismissals.

[binsleepen]

From the Unite web site:BA cabin crew overwhelmingly reject company offer (http://www.unitetheunion.org//news__events/latest_news/ba_cabin_crew_overwhelmingly_r.aspx)

Unite the union cabin crew employed at British Airways have overwhelmingly rejected the company's offer relating to the current industrial dispute, the union announced today (Friday).
Around 81 per cent of the crew voted against the offer, in line with the union's recommendation. There was a turnout of 71 per cent.
Representatives of the crew will meet with Unite's Joint General Secretaries, Derek Simpson and Tony Woodley, on Monday to discuss next moves in the dispute.
Derek Simpson and Tony Woodley said today: "BA management should take note of their own employees' strong rejection of their offer and immediately address the outstanding concerns.
"They should make no mistake that Unite is fully committed to supporting our members in furthering this dispute if no resolution is found."
ENDS
regards

[k3lvc]

Presumably this is 81% of the 71% of those who are still union members (unknown number but less than it used to be). Doesn't seem particularly representative :ugh:

[gr8tballsoffire]

Is an "indicative" online ballot recognised in law? Will BA challenge in court?
What are the actual numbers?

Given that the total number of CC is in the region of 12,000 and even by BASSA's figures 3-4,000 lost their ST meaning that the rest would have nothing to gain and everything to lose it would be interesting to see actual numbers.

Any ideas??:8

[Snas]

Clicking on a web link is rather easier than actually striking, giving up your staff travel and further placing the company, and your future employment, in greater jeopardy.

As we saw with the previous strike its support will be unlikely to reflect that of the ballots and BA’s plans will carry on to run the service, by and large, to an acceptable standard during the strike days.

Strikers will become increasingly irrelevant the longer the strike continues..
All hope of getting ST back, in any form, must now be surely lost and any further offers from BA will become increasingly less favourable – which is a bloody same for the crew that were happy to “just work a little harder” when all this began.

I think..!

[Final 3 Greens]

Snas

Clicking on a web link is rather easier than actually striking, giving up your staff travel and further placing the company, and your future employment, in greater jeopardy.

Exactly.

[mesmeris]

The start of this all going wrong for the BASSA was back in December when they made the ludicrous decision to go for a 12 day strike over the Christmas holidays. The comments they made were so out of tune with the thinking of customers that they lost any sympathy from the folks who truly are key to making the airline possible - the passengers. At this point many/most of us who are frequent flyers are keen to see the striking CC sacked. We have NO sympathy for their position and do not respect them in the least. In fact, I will be much more willing to fly with BA in the future if WW is able to clean house.

[Snas]

I will be much more willing to fly with BA in the future if WW is able to clean house.


A view shared by some staff I can assure you, dont give up on BA, or all its staff, just yet... Please

[ChicoG]

In fact, I will be much more willing to fly with BA in the future if WW is able to clean house.

Hear Hear, mesmeris. It is amazing how many people I know who won't fly BA ONLY because of these stuck up old CC who are past their sell by date and treat passengers as an irritating inconvenience to their jollies.

Still, if 81% of 71% of a proportion of cabin crew reject the offer and want to go on strike, let them.

It is increasingly apparent the BA consider the antagonistic BASSA lemmings to be expendable - the irony is that they are racing to the cliff edge of their own volition (or by virtue of being brainwashed and gullible).

[MPN11]

Loyalty is a fragile thing - I'm hanging on in there for the moment, with faith in the great majority of CC and VCC to deliver my imminent flights.

However, there may come a point where living with endless uncertainty, and experiencing degraded standards of service, simply says "Time to go". I don't really want that to happen, but the whole scenario is making me an 'unhappy bunny'.

[Dawdler]

Presumably this is 81% of the 71% of those who are still union members (unknown number but less than it used to be). Doesn't seem particularly representative :ugh:

Today Bassa claim 10,049 members about twenty more than a fortnight ago (their website), but that was a low from six months ago when it stood around 10,800

[ExecClubPax]

Okay let's do the math.

If the membership was 10,049 as stated and the turnout was 71% then the number of actual voters was 7,135. The number of those rejecting the offer is said to be 81% which means 5,779 BASSA members voted NO to BA's offer.

The number of NO voters represents 57.5% of the BASSA membership. That's hardly an overwhelming majority.

[Ancient Observer]

On the question of DH's departure, whilst sackings of bad shop stewards have come about at the insistence of senior TU officials, it is unlikely in this case due to the public nature of the dispute and the vigilance of the far-left.
However, the TU National Official, and the Gen Secs will probably have known the outcome before DH.
No surprises is rule no. 1 in ER.

I still think that bassa members are being perfectly logical and sensible - all this kerfuffle will end soon, and bassa will be restored to its natural position as effective Bosses of BA CC.

The world has not changed much, and 30 years of "bassa rules ok" isn't going to change overnight..............Fire most of the CC managers, and most of the first line supervisors, (known as csd in BA) and things might change.

[Tigger4Me]

I haven't a clue how this electronic poll works so was wondering if it is subject to audit at all. Do we simply accept that BASSA say 81% voted against the proposal or is it verified independently? I'm not suggesting for one minute that they have got the figures wrong, but their track record for telling the truth does tend to sow these seeds of doubt.

[fincastle84]

The number of NO voters represents 57.5% of the BASSA membership. That's hardly an overwhelming majority.

I'm sure that David Cameron would love that amount of support!

Moving away from politics; it sadly looks as though BA & its' long suffering pax are going to be subjected to even more uncertainty, based on what must be considered to be a very dubious on line ballot.

[Llademos]

Based on some numbers I've heard, I would think WW will try for a near 100% long haul from LHR (plus LGW and LCY as happened last time). As for SH - how many aircraft do Ryanair still have parked in PIK?

Ll

[MPN11]

BA's profit lies in LH with premium pax.

I suspect the temporary loss of some of the routes connecting to LHR and LGW would cause little short-term grief, as they are largely loss-making anyway. At the same time, some pax might discover what LoCo really feels like.

[PAXboy]

With any luck, some of the CC will read this on the BBC:
British Airways defended the offer and said: "Unlike other businesses and airlines, we have avoided compulsory redundancies. Cabin crew face no pay cut or reduction in terms and conditions - and remain the best rewarded in the UK airline industry." Yes, I know there will be changes down the line but that's called life.

Let us hope that there is a big offset between voting and working.

[dudleydick]

What a pity to see a great airline embroiled in so much dispute. I recall the TAP had a similar problem some years ago. One evening (at midnight if I recall) they closed the company and re-opened in the morning as Air Portugal with everyone needing to reapply for their jobs. Good bye union problems!
WW has a mandate from his board to make a profit. He has to be hard on any threats from their (overpaid) CC. More power to him. Unfortunately as a regular longhaul traveller - with no ID90 benefits despite 30 years in the industry - I have moved all my bookings to Emirates. I bet there are many like me despite our loyalty to the flag carrier (sorry Richard Branson but BA are still the UK flag carrier :)).
Let's hope WW fires the problem people and get's the airline back on track quickly.

[PAXboy]

(sorry dudleydick but BA are privatised and NOT the nation's carrier in the way that was understood for many years. Any, and all, UK carriers can 'carry the flag' by painting it on their a/c http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif).

[pj67coll]

PAXboy. That well may be, but certainly for myself and I suspect, a goodly number of folks planet wide the name "British Airways" carries a connotation of seniority that will not be easily overcome by other less emotive handles, such as "Virgin", "Ryan", what have you, no matter what flags they paint on their aircraft.

- Peter.

[Ali Barber]

I've consulted my family and they have overwhelmingly rejected risking booking our holiday flights with BA!

[PAXboy]

Thread drift
pj67coll Yes, I understand that, I was just being rather pedantic. I know that the definition of 'national' has changed in the way that many words change their definition. A hundred years ago, countries had 'their' steamship company and then we had airlines and, until something else comes along, we shall have 'national' airlines!

For me, having lived in several countries predominantly UK and being British, I do not have a bias towards this country. I tend to look internationally and any of those exhortations to 'buy British' and so on, pass me by. One friend of mine insists that he is English that the main problem with Gordon Brown was that he was 'foreign' and should not have been in charge of the country. I find that view bemusing.

Now back to the the nation's favourite airline ...

[Tin67]

I am waiting with great anticipation for the next announcements from Unite over IA. I am booked J-Class at the end of the month to YVR and am desperately concerned that what is planned to be special trip is going to be ruined.

This will be the third occasion that my plans are threatened by BA CC. A few years ago when I was entitled to get ID80s through my father, threatened action by CC 2 days before my flight lead to all staff travel being cancelled. It cost me a fortune to get an last minute alternative. Then it was Xmas 09 that was under threat, but that as we all know was avoided much to my families relief. For some reason I remained loyal and booked my YVR flight in Jan, although I had a feeling I'd regret the move.

I can empathise with CC to some extent where changes in working practices are enforced, but for the most part BA CC had nothing to moan about, no pay cut, no changes in terms and conditions or pensions. It seems to me that this has been blown completely out of all proportion to the extent that Unite/BASSA simply cannot admit this is wrong and back down. It's beyond the point of no return and this stand off is going to end in tears. BA will carry on with or without what appears to be the minority striking members.

I work from a large US corporate and my benefits have been cut heavily and I'll lose over 15% of my package next year. And that's from a company making $ millions, not a loss company like BA. If anything I have more to complain about that BA CC. I am paying the penalty of the board striving to cut cost whilst keeping the shareholders happy and taking huge bonuses themselves. Am I annoyed? Hell yeah, but industrial action is wrong and right now I'd rather be employed.

I really have had enough of this and will certainly think long and hard before booking with BA again.

[harrypic]

Interesting that there is no big BA press offensive on the rejection of the offer and the proposed 20 day strike - just a muted "we are disappointed....."

Thats not the response of a company that doesn't have a plan and an end game.....

[binsleepen]

Article in Mondays Times Cash-rich BA union threatens travel chaos over half-term holidays - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article7121269.ece)

BA should offer new contracts to all CC based on the present terms that are on the table. Any who refuse to sign will then be seen to have resigned. This will allow BA to employ many thousands of new and keen individuals who actually want to work.

Regards

[LD12986]

An extra £700k does not make Unite "cash rich". If there is to be yet more litigation, £700k is peanuts when it comes to legal fees.

If strike dates are announced tomorrow, WW should just go
nuclear.

[ChicoG]

If strike dates are announced tomorrow, WW should just go nuclear.

And given that the government is in disarray, there will be no government intervention to stop BA doing so.

Come on Willie, get rid of these wasters and make BA the airline to fly once more.

[BAOREY]

I really hope that Willie Walsh goes for the nuclear option and my decison on whether to use BA will depend upon it; if he gives in he looses mine and my companies business.

[L337]

But what is... WW should just go
nuclear.?

It has a nice ring, but I for one am not to sure what that means, and can manage to remain within the laws of the land.

[vanHorck]

I am a strong opponent to these BASSA strikes.

It does concern me, however, that apparently again large numbers (even if a minority of all CC) voted for strike action by not accepting the offer.

It must be clear that many are genuinely worried about their future work and/or income.

The question is: Are these CC worried about losing perks they should have always been entitled to (in which case their strikes are acceptable) or are they moving on to the next strike over perks they should never have had in the first place (in an open economy) and which were obtained by over-zealous Unions thinking they were suitable to run companies?

On the CC thread there is now active aggression in the sense of people calling cc staff just waitresses. I hope these comments will NOT be removed by the mods, as they are a clear sign of frustration by either co workers within BA and/or SLF. They clearly form part of the debate, however unpleasant they may be.

Comments are made about CC staff not being a product-critical component of the airline (such as pilots and engineers). It seems to show at least part of this readership is totally fed up with CC's strike actions.

So here we have it..... Some CC fighting for what they feel they are entitled to and other interested parties vilifying them....

It is the state of BA's CC world.

One thing is for sure, whatever the solution is, it had better come quickly as this battle must be killing for the atmosphere within BA and could lead to some of the best (CC) staff leaving to start working in a more positive environment, leaving only the disgruntled behind...

It could well be that WW's drive comes from this need for a rapid resolution either way, in other words that it s about more than just money.

[Chuchinchow]

Well done, van Horck, for identifying and focusing on passengers' distaste for BA flight attendants' continuing but misplaced actions.

[etrang]

This will be the third occasion that my plans are threatened by BA CC.

We have a saying in Texas;

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, ... You can't get fooled again.

[ChicoG]

could lead to some of the best (CC) staff leaving to start working in a more positive environment

Anyone who voted to reject the offer does not fall into that category. They are either too militant or too stupid to be good at anything. They are the ones that everyone WISHES would leave!

[wiggy]

It does concern me, however, that apparently again large numbers (even if a minority of all CC) voted for strike action by not accepting the offer.

It must be clear that many are genuinely worried about their future work and/or income.


It's probably more accurate to say they are genuinely worried by what they are being told by their Union. Wether that advice correctly reflects the offers the company have actually made is another matter entirely.

[4t2b]

I, for one, will be rather glad when all the "volunteers" are trained up and BA can return to some sort of normality with respect to it's Customer Service. I assume that some of them are away from their desks "volunteering" ?

I was caught in the first great Ash debacle and required a simple letter detailing my loss for insurance purposes , to date I am still waiting !

(Some) CC have a lot to answer for :ok:

[Final 3 Greens]

L337

It has a nice ring, but I for one am not to sure what that means, and can manage to remain within the laws of the land.

It could certainly involve making all existing cabin crew positions redundant and introducing new positions with a different payscale, allowing people to re-apply for these new jobs, which have new T&Cs.

Given (a) the recent volcano induced financial losses and (b) the impact of the ongoing industrial action on the brand (which is getting serious damage), I imagine BA would be able to state quite reasonably that a business crisis forced this action.

[Tin67]

We have a saying in Texas;

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, ... You can't get fooled again

I understand that saying for sure. If it wasn't for the fact that I have a load of BA miles that enabled me to upgrade to Club from World Traveller +, I'd not be travelling with BA.

I wonder now, that if the strike goes ahead and maybe the two YVR flights are reduced to one. If my J-class miles upgrade gets a low priority and I'm booted back to WT+.

I guess i have to just wait and see. I'm verging on the idea that a flight cancellation and a refund are the preferable options right now.

[Diplome]

Tin67:

I believe that etrang was being humorous.

The actual saying is:


Fool me once, shame on you.

Fool me twice, shame on me.

What was posted above was from a speech our past President gave where he mangled the phrase.

[Entaxei]

Or in the words of the 'Late, Great, Al Capone'

Once is Happenstance
Twice is Circumstance
Third Time is Enemy Action

Seems more appropriate somehow!

[Diplome]

Also appropriate to this situation.

In the words of the great Yogi Berra:


It's like deja-vu, all over again.

[Diplome]

Some very good news for BA today.

British Airways fuel price-fixing trial collapses

BBC News - British Airways fuel price-fixing trial collapses (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10104556.stm)

[The SSK]

Entaxei: Or in the words of the 'Late, Great, Al Capone'

Once is Happenstance
Twice is Circumstance
Third Time is Enemy Action


I thought that was Ian Fleming, in 'Goldfinger'.
Except he said that twice was coincidence.

Sorry, I promise to be good in future

[ChicoG]

British Airways staff to meet union for strike talks | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/10/british-airways-union-strike-talks)

If this is true, they are so stupid it's almost laughable.

I can see a whole load more resignations from BASSA happening when that gets read. No hiding place for 20 days is there? It's fish or cut bait to the loonies that vote for a strike but have done their best to avoid actually striking.

It truly is turkeys voting for Christmas

:}

[Diplome]

No hiding place for 20 days is there?


A good point Chico.

There will be no easy out with that schedule. My personal prediction is that even fewer numbers strike. I can't imagine that many individuals will be willing to sacrifice their well-being for Mr. Holley.

It certainly doesn't help Unite that Labour is the odd-man out in the government at the moment.

I believe we should consider the fact that BASSA is asking for this length of strike to force their membership into a "you're either with us or against us" situation. The difference between their votes and actually striking numbers has had to be a source of great frustration for the union.

[Snas]

The announcement of the strike is the damage, not just, or even so much as, the actual strike itself.

You would have to question the judgement of anyone who took the risk of a flight with BA for the duration of the summer, really…

[pwalhx]

I am booked to go to Hong Kong on the 29th May this was BA's last chance for me, I will give them till tomorrow and see what happens but I for sure am not going to book again.

[Boxkite Montgolfier]

Some comments that allude to BA's management having no endgame are risible. Throughout this deplorable dispute they have shown wisdom, restraint and a determined ability to out-think, out-plan,also generate and direct resources worthy of the finest generals
The intransigence of unresponsive cabin crew has only one conclusion, dismissal.
It would not surprise me, if substantial numbers of cabin crew are cowed or coerced into striking this time that a total re-organisation of the company could take place. Any newly formed company, whilst retaining loyal staff, would be enabled to clear out the unemployable, unenthusiastic discontents for good!

[Diplome]

I'm of a different mind.

I'll will continue to book with BA as long as BA continues to make progress in their attempts to rein in BASSA.

That approach would change if I observed BA acquiesing to BASSA's demands to run the airline. If BA and its rather wonderful employees are willing to fight the good fight I, and the companies I'm associated with, will be there.

[Snas]

Well Diplome, all I can say is thank goodness for the likes of you or BA would have an even more uncertain future than it does now.

Alas not all are able even if willing to take such risks.

[Diplome]

Snas:

Its not as if it hasn't taken some creativity and heaven knows there have been constant backup plans in place but to be honest the ash caused us significantly more problems than we experienced due to the strikes.

Its been a determined decision made on the part of many of our executives due to the fact that much discussion was had regarding BASSA's actions and BA's rather amazing response. Support through business when possible seemed to be a reasonable action.

With the incredible planning that BA has done to minimize militant impact I'm hopeful in the future this will become far less of a concern.

[Lou Scannon]

It will be a real challenge for BASSA to keep their leaders off the roster for 20 days so that they don't have to refuse to fly and therefore lose staff travel and money.

...but no doubt they will manage it!

[twoteapots]

I am due to fly BA to Vegas on 20th, which I booked in November to use up some of my remaining BA miles, with the intention of not flying BA again. Why? I have found over the years that, in general, the CC’s attitude has become more surly and, at times, I felt that I was doing them a favour by flying with them. However, as time has passed and following all the BASSA/Unite shenanigans and 60s style rhetoric and having watched the consistent and strong message from WW, plus the superb rallying of the rest of the BA team, I have become more and more pro BA and now feel almost obligated to support them once the union is broken, which it surely will be. As SLF, my hope is that the majority of the ‘old guard’ will either pack their bags and leave or get fired and we can then have a national airline that we can again be proud of. Given the current political/economic climate, I don’t think that striking BA CC could be more out of touch with the rest of the nation.:ugh:
Heard from a friend who flew during the last strike and who bought a box of chocolates from duty free before boarding his BA flight, which he gave to the crew as he went on board. Apparently, the captain was so impressed by his gesture he came back and personally thanked him. So, if you are flying through the next strike, why not go out of your way to thank the crew for keeping your flight going, I know I will.:D

[Capot]

Alas not all are able even if willing to take such risks. On the button; we cannot afford the disruption and therefore, as a matter of simple risk management, last year rebooked all our flying away from BA for the first few months of this year when the threat of strike disruption was first made.

We are still doing that for bookings up to September, in view of the current threats.

As time goes on and we get used to the alternatives, which are many and good, I suspect we'll not use BA again even if the lunacy stops.

Are we alone? Of course not; every company or person with 2 brain cells ro rub together understands the stupidity of paying in advance for a BA ticket, as things are.

The papers are reporting that Unite (or BASSA, I don't care) have a strike fund of £700K to sit out a lasting strike. Good for them; nothing like using your members' money to help them destroy their employer for political reasons.

[Diplome]

"...every company or person with 2 brain cells ro rub together understands the stupidity of paying in advance for a BA ticket,..."


Cabot:

We will have to simply agree to disagree. We have had only two real difficulties regarding strike time flights that I've heard of and both were resolved without too much trouble.

Granted, if any of us found ourselves dropped onto Ryan Air I'm sure that there would be serious...but the travel office seems to be having no problem. Much depends upon examining the situation and specific circumstances and looking to book BA when possible. Not quite as dramatic or difficult as some would have us believe.

[etrang]

No hiding place for 20 days is there?

indeed not. They should have taken O'Leary's advice and gone on strike for just 1 hour every week. That would be enough to cause BA serious disruption whilst exposing the minimum number of CC to management retaliation. It would also minimise Unite's strike pay costs.

[Diplome]

Courtesy of cynicalmoose on the CC thread:

BBC 1607 BST BA cabin crew to strike from May 18-22, May 24-28, May 30-June 3 and June 5-9

Will be very interesting to watch BA's response.

[binsleepen]

from unites web site Cabin crew announce further BA strike dates (http://www.unitetheunion.org//news__events/latest_news/cabin_crew_announce_further_ba.aspx)

10th May 2010
British Airways cabin crew are to hold a further 20 days of strike action following their overwhelming rejection of the company’s offer in a ballot last week, Unite the union announced today (Monday).
BA management failed to offer any new proposals to settle the dispute over the weekend, so crew are to take strike action on the following days: May 18-22 inclusive, May 24-28 inclusive, May 30-June 3 inclusive and June 5-9 inclusive.
Unite’s joint general secretaries Derek Simpson and Tony Woodley said: “Passengers and investors alike will be dismayed that British Airways' management rejected an approach by the union over the weekend, after their offer had been comprehensively turned down by their own employees.
“Cabin crew are left with no choice but to take further strike action. There can be no industrial peace without meaningful negotiations and while management victimises trade unionists and uses disciplinary procedures in a witch-hunt.
“The seven days notice period is sufficient time for BA management to do the sensible thing and reopen meaningful negotiations.”
Unite is also intending to hold a further industrial action ballot of BA cabin crew over issues which have arisen from the company’s conduct during the dispute.
Regards

[Dawdler]

Courtesy of cynicalmoose on the CC thread:

BBC 1607 BST BA cabin crew to strike from May 18-22, May 24-28, May 30-June 3 and June 5-9 Will be very interesting to watch BA's response.Why the odd one-day breaks? It seems that there must be some motive for these.

[Tin67]

What can I say?
I certainly can't write what's in my head at the moment :mad:

So that's both my outbound and inbound flights falling within the strike dates. Thanks alot, I hope you all find your P45's in the post soon.

All I can do is wait now to see if my flights are cancelled so I can get my money back. I can then invest in an airline I can trust to get me to my destination.

[Diplome]

The breaks may just be for the purpose of making it more difficult for BA to schedule...though if I remember correctly BA solved this last time by simply putting striking CC on hold until reassigned future routes.

Hopefully we will get some clarification from more knowledgeable individuals regarding scheduling.

[BEagle]

The country is rocked by a financial crisis and political uncertainty, whilst the travelling public has suffered through BA's strikers and the Icelandic volcanic ash problem.

The heads-in-the-sand 'Red Robbo' stupidity of these absurd unions needs to be abandoned. Right now. The strikers will find themselves not just unemployed, but unemployable. What a pity.....:hmm:

Good luck Willie, kick these flouncing idiots into touch and let the rest of your airline get on with pulling together to a recovery.

I cannot believe that anyone will have any sympathy whatsoever for these petulant fools who intend going on strike yet again. BA is losing customer confidence and the idiot striking CC are merely shooting themselves in the foot.

Nice couple of trips today with Lufthansa - and occupancy ratio was very healthy.

[pj67coll]

I can't post what I really want to as the amount of expletives would make the post unreadable. However I can only hope that Walsh manages to fire the whole worthless bunch and that the flight we are still booked on will be staffed by the volunteers. - Peter.

[ChicoG]

And we are getting perilously close to the point where BA write to every cabin crew member, explaining that they have no choice but to terminate all employee contracts in 90 days, and reissue new ones on their own terms.

These BASSA retards are like industrial suicide bombers, and the best way to treat a suicide bomber is to top him before he detonates.

[ranger07]

Totally echo your view...that's also how the vast amount of staff feel. The staff that have endured pay freezes/adapted to change/have put our heart into this Airline.
I too am fuming and can not translate my thoughts to text.
If WW gives in, the future of the Airline will be in doubt. Rest assured, these militant hot heads will raise their ugly mugs for more,,and more.
Short sharp shock treatment awaits..!!

[binsleepen]

With TCGB just offering to resign it is a good day to bury bad news. WW should strike quickly and without remorse. The BA story will be lucky to make the papers tomorrow.

[MPN11]

Throughout the last few months I have tried [against my natural inclination] to accept and understand the Union's position in all this. Sadly, that is now firmly at an end.

The Union wish to strike on what basis, may I ask?
1. "Disciplinary action against those who broke the rules should be dropped" :eek:
2. "ST should be restored, even though we were told it would be lost by strikers" :eek:

OK - with this sort of "logic" and combative mind-set, WW has no options. Good luck, Mr Walsh, and 'Thank You' to all the BA staff who will do their very best to keep the airline operating.

On a personal level - I lost the trips last month due to ash, but managed to re-book everything at no personal cost [thanks BA, Virgin, Sofitel, JSPCA]. On the re-arranged trip, my first outbound sector is on Day 1 of Strike 1, and my last homebound sector is on Day 5 of Strike 4. :mad:

Curiously, I feel vaguely confident that things will be OK - those sectors operated during both the previous waves of IA. And, on the up-side, I will be able to smile at the CC operating my flights without feeling slightly hypocritical.

FLYING BA

[Diplome]

MPN11:

Great post.

I'm rather in the same mind-set.

No more sympathy for the poor deluded strikers who just are being mislead. In fact, everytime I think of strikers at the moment I envision that rather chavvy (is that a word?? :) ) woman wearing the mens undergarments.

I can live without that handing me a glass of champagne.

Here's to hoping that the rest of BA staff and reasonable Cabin Crew can get this done.

[MPN11]

Re the "Prime Minister" ... not quite as clear cut as one would hope ...

Step down as Labour Leader? (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Gordon-Brown-To-Step-Down-As-Labour-Leader-By-September-Conference-As-Power-Sharing-Talks-Continue/Article/201005215629185?lpos=Politics_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15629185_Gordon_Brown_To_Step_Down_As_Labour_Lea der_By_September_Conference_As_Power-Sharing_Talks_Continue) but soldier on until September as PM while Labour goes through the processes. :mad:

Sky News political editor Adam Boulton described Mr Brown's announcement as an audacious pitch to hang on to power.
"By implication, what it's saying is 'I want to stay on as Prime Minister over the summer and sort out working with the Liberal Democrats to put the economy back on the right footing', but then a new Labour leader could be chosen.

[Diplome]

MPN11:

That was rather my take also.

As an ex-pat I'm finding this process fascinating.

[Neptunus Rex]

Bring it on BASSA!
I am confident that Willie and his army of volunteers, plus thousands of CC who will not strike, will achieve over 90% of services despatched.

Besides, I want to see a photo of Fincastle 84 in his new uniform!

[GROUNDHOG]

I too have a long haul booking on the strike dates, I thought BA would refund anyway under the circumstances. It will NOT stop me booking BA in the future either.

[radeng]

I've got a LH booking that gets me back on the morning of the 18th. Booked SH trips could be more interesting May 25 - 28, June 6 -11, June 20 - 28 and June 30 - July 2.

We will see what happens. But I remember in the magazine 'The Engineer',
some years ago, they interviewed a hatchet man who sorted out companies that were in trouble. He said that if you had to save money, you should start chopping the people at the top. This was because each head chopped there saved more, and these were the people who got the company into the mess anyway. WW might want to remember that......it's noticeable that BA have been 'saving' on little things like hot towels and minimising meals on SH. One CC told me that this was effectively to get Club Europe to subsidise low economy fares to keep planes filled......

But I'm still waiting for the reply to my letter of April 20, wanting compensation for a flight last time in which in Club Class, it was a charter aircraft so normal economy seat, no meal, no champagne, so no difference to economy. So far, they've sent a refusal and a voucher for £30. Thanks to Pprune, we have the details of the rules.........

[harrypic]

Can BA lodge an injuction against this wave of strikes based upon the fact that the voted mandate for IA was on imposition and there is no voted mandate for IA based upon ST or discipline hearings.....?

That could be interesting....

[Snas]

Can BA lodge an injuction against this wave of strikes based upon the fact that the voted mandate for IA was on imposition and there is no voted mandate for IA based upon ST or discipline hearings.....?



There is a clue within Unites press release.....


Unite is also intending to hold a further industrial action ballot of BA cabin crew over issues which have arisen from the company’s conduct during the dispute.


Source: - http://www.unitetheunion.com/campaigns/ba_united_we_stand/unite_press_releases/cabin_crew_announce_further_ba.aspx (http://www.unitetheunion.com/campaigns/ba_united_we_stand/unite_press_releases/cabin_crew_announce_further_ba.aspx)

[binsleepen]

If the company issue new CC contracts under the 90 day SOSR do they have to wait 90 days or could they tell CC to sign the next time they come into work and if they don't they get 90 days basic pay? If they did this would BA be able to begin recruiting onto new fleet terms immediately?

Regards

[sussex2]

I'm banned from posting on the BAvBASSA thread because the mods think that despite a lifetime in aviation, and being the partner of a long serving BA crew member that I do not qualify. That is their, the MODs problem.
But, others except the direct employees of BA are affected by this, in no mean manner, they are affected very much indeed.
All I can say is that to go on strike now is utter maddness, folly of the most base nature.
Delete my post, do what the hell you like with it, but there are others out there who have now had enough.
All the best

[pencisely]

Delighted to learn that my next 4 flights fall within planned strike dates. This means travelling with Non militant CC and committed VCC, I remain 110% confident that BA will operate all of the long haul flights as indeed was my experience last time.

I think the strikers will soon get a very strong message fron the airline and Pax - "No longer required"

It must be quite a low when you fire your best shot and the intended victim doesn't even notice.

[Diplome]

sussex2:

I can't imagine anyone deleting your post on this thread.

As an individual on retainer by two U.S. airlines I will admit to being tempted to post when I see rather inane representations being made by individuals on the CC thread. I've also seen, and continue to see individuals post who's connection with BA is tenuous to be generous.

But, it is important that we recognize that the Site Administrators are trying to preserve a certain atmosphere in the CC thread..though I will be amused at a few of the posters who I quite recall what their "association" to actual CC is.

My personal view is that, despite temptation, despite others' rather poor behavior, I will respect the site's rules and try to operate under the forum's rules.

That being said, my heaven's there are times I truly wish to engage with those quite deluded regarding contract law, the cost of your designated representatives being quite too verbal, and what specific threats might get lost in the rhetoric of a rather verbose call to arms.

[daxwax]

Sorry for asking a very selfish question but here goes...

I'm booked to fly to Barcelona from LHR with my family on Saturday 29th May on BA. Now technically this isn't a strike day but what do you think my chances are of getting this flight as it's between the second and third strikes?

Thanks!

As for the strike itself, I know far less than many people on this forum but as a random punter I've lost any patience I may have had with the union if only because it's so difficult to work out what they actually want.
And for those in the union that say:

Would you accept it if you were enjoying X amount of money / great terms and conditions and one day the powers that be award themselves massive bonuses and say "by the way we want you to earn less money and work harder from now on - ok??"

Well the answer is that if I was that annoyed by it I'd leave and go somewhere that paid better and had better conditions. Oh, hang on a minute......

[TSR2]

I don't think that BA will be able to 'hire' many aircraft from other airlines during the next series of strikes now that the summer season has started. I wonder how that will impact the number of short haul flights that will be cancelled particularly those that feed to their LHR hub and the subsequent impact on their long haul services.

[ChicoG]

One can only assume you are kidding, or have not seen the list of even European only airlines that have gone out of business. Aircraft are not going to be a problem.

Wet leasing may be, but the travel market is still depressed by mass unemployment across the European zone, so I don't think that will be so much of a problem either.

And then we get on to the "non-striking strikers", volunteers and new hires.

I don't see any problem; this strike will probably be less effective than the last, and may weed out much more of the useless BASSA flotsam and jetsam.

[etrang]

Just wanted to say, Good luck to all CC during this difficult period - try and stay strong.

[ChicoG]

Just wanted to say, Good luck to all CC during this difficult period - try and stay strong.

More like good luck to all of the decent cabin crew who haven't gone on strike, who haven't voted to strike, and who have consistently supported their colleagues' and the companys' efforts to fight for survival.

The rest of them can go to hell frankly. The don't deserve the job.

I'm sure BA management and the board are looking at creative ways of separating the two and treating them accordingly.

Good luck also to the VCC who will be going that extra mile to help their rational and sensible cabin crew colleagues out.

The travelling public I am sure are 100% behind those that actually care about their customers.

I say well done to all of you!

[TruBlu123]

You did state all CC should stay strong. Striker and non-striker alike? Please clarify, early I know but confused!:(

[BOAC]

or have not seen the list of even European only airlines that have gone out of business. Aircraft are not going to be a problem. - it does not work like that. A/C can only be operated inside an Air Operator's licence. Airlines that have 'gone' no longer have those. Remaining airlines would need to retrain the 'redundant' crews inside their licneces. That takes time and money.


Secondly, to remove ANY doubts, we effectively have a continual 20 day stoppage by these c/crew. It would be impossible for BA to 'recover' any sort of schedules with a 1 day break. The only way they will operate is with the 'volunteers' and the remaining non- striking crew - and I'm sure that will work well. In my opinion this strike needs to 'come on' in full and matters can come to a head and be properly lanced.

[Tin67]

The travelling public I am sure are 100% behind those that actually care about their customers.

I say well done to all of you!

I am fully behind those that will support BA to keep passengers like me flying. From what I have read on older posts, the CC and VCC deserve a huge amount of credit and I only hope that BA recognise their support.

All I can say is that I hold nothing but comtempt to the union and members who are on what seems to be a career suicide pact. It appears that Unite/BASSA are following their own agenda and have little interest in the plight of its members, let alone the fare paying passengers and other BA staff.

I am in limbo until BA decide whether my flights are cancelled. I'm due to fly in 2 weeks and return the following week. Both flights impacted by this action. I live in hope that common sense prevails, but common sense and Unite/BASSA aren't a combination that works.

[Diplome]

BOAC:


In my opinion this strike needs to 'come on' in full and matters can come to a head and be properly lanced.


It certainly looks like this may happen.

[Airclues]

The media keep reporting that the cabin crew have voted for more strike action. This is not true, they have voted to reject the latest offer.

However, the latest offer is worse than the one that was imposed on them last year, which did not involve any pay cuts. Why would any Gatwick crew vote for this offer, as the crew reduction of the original 'offer' didn't affect them.

Could it be that the vote to reject the latest offer is actually a vote to remain with the present situation (the CSD having to work, but no pay cuts), rather than to support strike action?

Dave

[fincastle84]

If you want to hear the real truth, tune in now to R5 Live. Mr Holley is telling the whole & nothing but the truth. No wonder BA are glad to see the back of him.

[slf22]

Quite.

Some comments here: BBC - Radio 5 live - 5 live Connect (http://www.bbc.co.uk/5live/connect/)
I see the bassa faithful are out in force.

[Winch-control]

At the end off the day, Bassa wil roll-over. BA will succeed, more strikes will only pre-empt that. The writing is on the wall, the only ones that cannot see it are the Bassa followers.

As I said more than 6 months ago, market forces do apply and unfortunately BA CC only meet the minimum standard.

It is a great shame the CC make the the choice of using Pilots as their main scape goat, but there really is zero comparison, whether it be in terms of representation, deals struck (or not) or skill set. its a no brainer.

Makes not a jot of difference if the cabin crew strike or not ( though probably better if they did to further BA's cause in progression to solution). At the end of the day they are not able to influence the final outcome (other than in a negative matter for themselves).

[Diplome]

The comments I'm reading are definitely not sympathetic to the striking Cabin Crew.

[MPN11]

It reads as though there are a lot of unhappy pax whose plans and dreams are potentially being trashed by BASSA - is it any wonder there's little public sympathy on offer?

[ChicoG]

When someone can post a link to the R5 programme I'd be grateful. It's always interesting listening to the tosh these BASSA fools trot out.

I hope the Beeb contact someone from the PCCC <sp?> for their take on the last moronic UNITE/BASSA suicide mission.

[Winch-control]

There is a link to it on the Bassa Ba thread but i cant get into it as Im not Uk...

[fincastle84]

BBC - BBC Radio 5 live Programmes - Victoria Derbyshire - Episodes available now on BBC iPlayer (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007v5cz/episodes/player)

This is the link to Victoria Derbyshire's page on the BBC Player. Just click on the listen now link on today's programme.That should work for you.

The interview with Holley begins 13 minutes into the programme. There are various contributions throughout the remainder of the programme.

Be ready to take a cold shower once you've finished, you'll need it!

For those who are unable to listen, Holley says 'that he was fired because BA recognised his voice from his comments on the BBC during the strike.'

I thought he was fired for illegally taking time off to attend to union duties.

[SpringHeeledJack]

I can fully appreciate that the CC on older contracts would be very unwilling to see their work conditions changed and remuneration(s) with it, but times have changed and perhaps not for the better. Facts are that cost savings are urgently needed and unfortunately the CC branch are prime candidates to be 'pruned'. Further industrial actions will only make the participants feel that they went out with their heads held high, roaring like lions instead of squeaking like mice. And then WW et al will prune them from the BA tree and life will go on. The writing is on the wall.

As an aside, I took a long haul round trip with BA recently and it was during the strike periods. Strangely the outward bound flight with 'volunteers' was perhaps the most laid back and pleasant flight i've ever had with them, only no warm food souring the experience. The return was with normal CC and was noticeably less 'friendly'. Perhaps stressed by the strike situation, who knows, but as a paying customer my expectations were not met.

I used to work in an industry where wages and job perks were cut drastically. It was not a pleasant experience to see the monies re-distributed to others at the time, yet now with a bit of time to see the wood from the trees it was inevitable and i wish that i might have saved myself much anguish by accepting it earlier on instead of fighting and wasting energy. Love him, hate him, but WW was hired to do a job that he had experience in and he will carry it through on the orders of the directors :hmm: Good luck!



SHJ

[ChicoG]

Dear oh dear. In fairness, he admitted that he was fired for not turning up for work, but had the audacity to say that his first responsibility was to the Union!

Of course, being off work during industrial action exempts him from losing his ST, doesn't it?

I listened to his rampant lies, then some bimbo quoting the "81%", then someone from Flight Ops who challenged him to produce evidence of his claims such as Walsh trying to turn BA into an LCC.

Holley talked at a million miles an hour, trying to get as many ludicrous, out of context or false statements in as he could. Epic Fail.

The bimbo challenged the guy from Flight Ops for his use of the phrase "Food Chain" and where CC fit on it, asking if that meant he was superior to her?

Luv, I know Nurses ten years younger than you that are superior to you.

So nothing new really, these airheads will keep trotting out the same nonsense and eventually BA will weed them out.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Funniest bit was Holley saying how much they'll miss him because he was "in charge of the database". What, the one that you f**ked up for the first strike, Duncan?

[Tin67]

BA have added some more info to their site and my booking now has the option to rebook. I called BA and Thursday/Friday they should release the flight status', but I have managed to rebook to just outside the strike last dates, so hopefully this will be safe.

I wish all the CC and VCC the best of luck and much encouragement to keep BA flying during the strike periods :D

[Neptunus Rex]

I have just listened to it, and I am appalled at the bias shown to DH and the strikers. His mic should have been muted whilst others were on the line. Then, when the voice of dissent is raised, and very reasonably by a BA Flight Attendant, DH calls her a management plant. Such credibility DH!
Finally, as our FA is scoring some real points off DH, Victoria Derbyshire cuts her off and ends the piece. Typical BBC left-wing bias yet again.

[dubh12000]

One or two pro-strikers on the CC thread were moaning about the pilots getting share options......correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Unite turn this possibility down right at the very start? i.e. Early 2009...

[Mr Optimistic]

Yes, it makes you wonder whether Man really is Nature's last word. (PGW).

[MPN11]

FLASH ... Brown has just arrived at the Palace.

A new Government not funded by Unite could make a difference?

[twoteapots]

Was going to ask if DH was with him, but guess he might be going to the Tower!:ok:

[MPN11]

Official ... GB resignation at 1945.

DC on his way to Buck House.

Eastenders deferred until 2000 [or preferably even longer] :)

[bubblesuk]

With a bit of luck this will be another nail in the unions coffin. As for the strikers? sack them as soon as its legal to do so, there's 2000+ RBS workers out of jobs who would, no doubt, happily take their jobs.

[Jimogr]

I'm due to fly from Delhi to Heathrow on the 1st of June. I'm not in the UK so not up to date with what the contingency plans are.

On ba.com it is just saying the flight schedule will be released on the 25th of May.

What is the likelihood that by flight will go as planned.

During the last strike what was the outcome of the contingency plans - did they really work as well as ba claimed or were loads of longhaul flights cancelled.

Thanks.

[pencisely]

My experience in the last strike was that thye just consoildated and kept us flying. In fact the only impact I suffered was a free upgrade to 1st class from Biz which was very nice.

Also as I have said before there was a great spirit on the plane with enthusiastic volunteers and more importantly none of the miseld militants hell bent on destroying the airline and delivering poor service.

[ChicoG]

Sky report today that BA expect a strike of this duration at this time to cost them GBP140 million.

Now we know that the number of actual strikers is less than 5,000 or so.
That works out at 28,000 a head.

So fire all the strikers and let them go to an industrial tribunal. Most of them would be lucky to get that and you wouldn't have to reemploy them.

It would be illegal so you'd get fined as well. Big Deal.

But it must be reaching the point where it has to be economically viable to clear out this dross and take the short term pain for the long term gain.

Not to mention halving BASSA's income.

Win Win all round as far as I can see, I can't even see UNITE risking the jobs of its other members trying to get involved now that it has virtually no political power with its poodle gone.

And who in safe employment now is going to risk losing their jobs defending these witless and overpaid prima donnas?

Of more concern is the other tipping point, which is that at which Sheikh Khalifa decides to dip into his Abbey National Young Savers account, buy BA for cash at a discount and merge it with his beloved Etihad Airways.

And we aren't talking Manchester City millions to spend here. We are talking a hard nosed bunch of businessmen who simply won't take this :mad: .

Not to mention how he would view the pension funds.

And don't expect too much intervention now we have the Tories running the country again.

[Winch-control]

What an idiot Duncan Holley is...

Laughed me socks off, just been listening to radio5 live...

he says "Its not about pay, its about life style" !!!!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[oggers]

On why he refused to work 6(!) trips at a time when everyone else in the company were having to pull together to get through the severe disruption that the snows brought:

"my first responsibility is to the union so I won't be turning up for my trips" :eek::eek:

His dedication to the union is commendable but I think most employers, and many hard working employees, would wince at those priorities.

This is a guy who believes he has been unfairly dismissed and is mounting an appeal. Yet he has been silly enough to go on national radio and have a rant, during the course of which he has said rather too much for his own good.:=

It is sobering that this is the calibre of union rep upon whose skill the future conditions of so many cabin crew depend.

[Winch-control]

Yesterday an ex-BA rep on 5 live radio said: he believes this will all end badly

hmm and the blind keep leading the blind; with their greatest concern being will/can/what if I get sacked by BA!
Hopefully the concern of re-instatement of staff travel will now go out the window; as to the same with re-instatement of those being disciplined (after due procedure of course).

Only thing left? get rid of the chaff, keep the wheat!

WW must surely be thinking by now cheaper to get rid of all those militant members and get the company on a reasonable footing again than keep them employed? Simply from a hassle free point of of view; sack them tommorow and deal with them in the courts if need be, or just give them their pay off. He has enough staff to do it, or can at least recruit enough in the next 7 days to do so!

[Winch-control]

Recent articles in the Independent, the Guardian and the FT suggest that now is the time for Walsh to check his ego and stop being so macho. It will now cost the company very very little to stop the waste of an estimate £150m that the latest strikes are estimated to cost.]

Probably cost them even less to sack the trouble makers....Just a thought...

[Winch-control]

And this made me laugh so much.. posted on the 'other forum'


How can anyone afford to lose 20+ days of their salary ? Ok strikers get £30/day but that hardly covers living expenses ....


Obviously because they paid way above their real value normally!!! Simples:D

[Diplome]

Courtesy of Welcome Aboard on the CC thread the latest communication from Mr. Walsh.

To All colleagues

The announcement by Unite that it will mount a further 20 days of strike action will have shocked our customers and many of you.
Sadly it comes as no surprise to those of us who have spent the past 15 months negotiating with Unite in a genuine attempt to reach an agreement.

It seems to me that time and again, Unite has shown itself to be a cynical and calculating trade union, willing to stretch the boundaries of truthfulness and integrity. I would like to set the record straight.

We have made significant compromises.

In a statement on Monday, Unite claimed that we had "rejected an approach by the union over the weekend". That is not true. I was available all weekend and there were no contacts made.

Unite has repeatedly moved the goalposts and is not interested in settling the dispute. The union knows our latest offer addresses all the concerns it has raised during 15 months of negotiations and that we have compromised many times in an effort to get a resolution.
Tony Woodley himself has said that our final offer "on many points represents an improvement".
During these talks, we have:
offered the partial reversal of crew complements, despite a High Court ruling in our favour
agreed to future promotions and transfers on current contracts for current crew
given a written assurance about the allocation of routes and aircraft between fleets
given assurances to protect the pay, terms and conditions for our current crew
changed our position on pay to guarantee RPI rises for two years, on top of increments
agreed to the return of staff travel to crew who went on strike, subject to certain conditionsI know many of you who came to work were disappointed that we moved from a permanent staff travel ban for those who took action. But a permanent ban will happen if the union engages in further strike action.
I do not believe the union is genuine when it says it wants meaningful talks to enable these strikes to be called off, especially in view of its plans for a fresh ballot to enable more strikes later in the year.

This is a fair deal and it remains available. There are no more compromises that we can make and we cannot lose sight of the fact these changes are to ensure our future sustainability.

Disciplinary proceedings

Contrary to media reports, no-one has been suspended for taking part in strike action.
Most of the suspensions have taken place following allegations from colleagues of bullying and intimidation. We are duty bound to investigate these, and the investigations are conducted under the company's disciplinary procedures, which have been in place for many years and are agreed with all of the trade unions, including Unite.
To date, we have concluded 30 disciplinary cases. Of those, five individuals have had no action taken against them and gone back to work; 15 have had written warnings and seven have been dismissed for serious cases of misconduct.

It is ludicrous for Unite to describe our disciplinary investigations as "victimisation".

Fantasy ballot

Unite has said that cabin crew have overwhelmingly rejected our latest proposal. I do not believe this is the case.
More than 70 per cent of crew came to work during the previous strikes.
The union’s latest online ballot was operated outside the statutory rules and the votes were not confidential. Cabin crew had to submit their name, staff number and union membership details when casting their vote. These were intimidatory tactics that I think were intended to deter crew from voting in favour of the deal.

You may question whether these are the actions of a democratic trade union keen to genuinely engage with its members and represent their best interests, or those of a small minority of people hell bent on destroying your company and your jobs. Please don’t let them.

This action will not be 20 days of strikes, and the union knows this. The "breather" days in between the four blocks of strikes serve no purpose for our operation or our customers. This is a 23 day strike in the run up to the World Cup, which will disrupt another school break and many other business trips and hard earned holidays. And just when the UK economy needs help to get back on its feet, Unite will deal it another blow.

[bubblesuk]

And this made me laugh so much.. posted on the 'other forum'

Quote:
How can anyone afford to lose 20+ days of their salary ? Ok strikers get £30/day but that hardly covers living expenses ....
Obviously because they paid way above their real value normally!!! Simples:D


I'm off to join them so i can get strike pay, thats 2 quid a day more than i'm currently earning!

[Llademos]

In a staff forum today WW also went through the 12 week issue. He basically said, or inferred that (a) an employer has a defence to sacking someone for striking 12 weeks after the first action, (b) a number of hoops had to be jumped through by an employer to justify the sacking and (c) in his (and BA lawyers') view, these conditions have been met by BA. He also mentioned the possibility of recruiting new CC.

[k3lvc]

Just sent to Exec Club members

Dear Mr xxxxxx,

As you are undoubtedly aware, Unite, the trade union that represents British Airways' cabin crew has announced further strike action.

I wanted to update you on the situation and thank you for your continued loyalty and support.

We were saddened but not surprised that Unite has announced plans for strikes that span 23 days including the May bank holiday and half term. I can assure you that this action will not ground British Airways.

Unite officials continue to show a callous disregard for our customers. A small minority act as if they want to destroy BA and the jobs of thousands of their colleagues. And just when the UK economy needs help to get back on its feet, Unite will deal it another blow.

The offer on the table is very fair. It includes a guaranteed pay rise for the next two years, meets the union's concerns on crewing levels, access to routes and maintains a standard of living that reflects the value and service our cabin crew deliver to our customers.

During the last two periods of industrial action, thousands of staff from across the airline, including volunteers, kept British Airways flying and we flew more than half a million customers to their destinations.

We are confident that many cabin crew will again ignore Unite's pointless strike call and support the efforts of the rest of the airline.

On the strike dates we will operate all London Gatwick and London City services. At Heathrow we plan to operate a substantial part of our longhaul schedule. There will also be a number of daily flights to every destination across our shorthaul network.

We are talking to other airlines about leasing in extra aircraft to support our shorthaul schedule and we will buy thousands of seats from other airlines to help our customers rebook if their original flight is cancelled.

I fully appreciate that information is critical during such a period so we will regularly update ba.com with details of our revised schedule and options available.

Your support, patience and understanding during the recent months have been invaluable and I would like to thank you in advance for your continued loyalty in support of our business.


http://images.ed4.net/images/htdocs/spacer.gifhttp://images.ed4.net/images/htdocs/spacer.gifYours sincerely,
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http://img.ed4.net/britishairways/2009_Q4/BA_09Q4_PROJ_ALL_TemplatesUpdate_StandardTimings/html/sig_blue_williewalsh.gif
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Willie Walsh

[MPN11]

I think the pax, and CC, and The City, have been sent a very clear message by WW.

The prospects of it being heard by BASSA/Unite are, IMO, minimal.

My sympathy is extended to all of those working FOR the Company.
A turbulent month lies ahead.

[pencisely]

It seems that approximately 25% of the available CC will be striking during this period. I for one would be happy to see a corresponding reduction in the No of onboard CC during this period.

Is there any reason why the company cannot take this approach? on a 747 this would mean 9 or 10 CC for the flight which seems perfectly sufficient and something that I am sure Pax would agree to given the choice of that or not flying.

No doubt the 1000 or so VCC could be used to enhance these numbers somewhat.

Any thoughts?

[MPN11]

There are legal CAA minimums for the number of CC - related to emergency exits, and nothing to do with customer service.

IIRC, the number needed for a 747 is higher than you suggest. Fourteen rings a bell in my distant memory-banks.

[LD12986]

They may be able to reduce CC numbers by 2 just by closing off the Upper Deck (though that will probably result in uproar from most CW frequent flyers!).

[RTR]

Once again Woodley and Simpson, Unite et al, make themselves look VERY VERY stupid by claiming that they had approached WW over the weekend and were "rejected."

WW said this in his memo of today, so perhaps they dare to call him a liar:

In a statement on Monday, Unite claimed that we had "rejected an approach by the union over the weekend". That is not true. I was available all weekend and there were no contacts made.


Would YOU dare to say that WW lied? I wouldn't - its more than his job is worth!

Unite and BASSA will stoop to gutter tactics to help get a lie across it seems.

[pencisely]

Might be a CAA minimum but hardly critical to the safe operation of the flight.

[jethrobee]

The funny thing here is Mr Walsh definitely hasnt lied, but then according to Mr Holley nor is he.....

[MPN11]

Might be a CAA minimum but hardly critical to the safe operation of the flight.
Absolutely NO - that is actually the safety-critical part of the equation!

Trained CC manning the doors to ensure a safe and controlled evacuation in the case of an incident. That's why some ac types can operate with fewer CC than others, and the 747-400 has LOTS of doors and emergency exits.
QED, Sir.

[dilldog01]

regardless of wether it is critical to the safety of the flight it's still a CAA minimum so end of

[TightSlot]

Might be a CAA minimum but hardly critical to the safe operation of the flight.

Minimum crew numbers are established by the CAA for each type/config on the UK register. There is no procedure for variation from the minimum without explicit permission from the CAA, and then only in compliance with specific criteria.

I've no doubt that your assessment of the minimum crew required is rooted in a wealth of safety and practical experience. Sadly, the CAA, (who clearly lack your depth of knowledge), are the ones that call the shots for now.

[turbine100]

Just got the BA WW email.

Travelled BA all the time for business most weeks until last 2 years where I mixed with other operators from time to time due to cost.

Last 12 years service seems worse, aircraft IFE poor and plane tickets often expensive when comparing to others. So I have had to change to other airlines when BA's fares have been a lot higher.

Next week and the following switching airlines from BA as I have to be with my customers. I doubt this strike helps the cabin crew cause or passenger relations. I have to travel and my business like others will be lost.

In one of the new papers some months ago, Cabin Crew or perhaps the unions were comparing themselve's to other professions such as lawyers profession.

It takes a few weeks to complete the courses and cannot be compared to training for flight deck and going through years of hard work between jobs etc with large debts or a lawyer.

It will get to a point that WW will have to do redundancies / layoffs, leading to remployment and perhaps worse terms if that were legal.

I dont understand all the issues but I cannot imagine BA being cost effective when in general airlines like EZY or Ryan are low cost operations or long haul operators pay less and try to offer more attractive staff travel.

Sadly its a dynamic environment and things have changed with T&C's. e.g. Pilots paying to fly or for type ratings as one other example.

[pencisely]

another fine example of the health and safety Taliban at work - and the last time CC manning the doors actually made any difference in an emergency?

The vast majority of Pax would quickly work out how to open the door in an emergency.

I for one would have no issue flying with no CC on board if given the choice of flying/not flying - just show me where to sign the disclaimer!

[MPN11]

You don't really understand the aviation business, do you, pencisely?

I thought TS was remarkably restrained in that earlier comment. :mad:

[TightSlot]

He won't be troubling us again

[MPN11]

Ooops ... :eek:

Ohh, you are so harsh! ;)

[cym]

As ex crew good call and thanks - the primary aim for CC is to ensure the safety of pax - often said but easily forgotten it seems

[MPN11]

Concur completely with cym ... despite some 30 years in avn, the complexities of civ 'people moving' have been a revelation over the last 6 months or so following this dispute.

[MPN11]

The revelation on the CC Thread that volunteer CC are being rostered from tomorrow also conveys a message.

BA will not be broken. Battered, yes. But NOT broken by militants who simply seem to refuse to face facts.

[cym]

Thanks - It winds me up totally when people think that all CC are there for is to feed and water them.

Every crew member knows the location and function of every piece of emergency equipment on board, when and how to use it, how to procted the aircraft keep people safe

Have CC saved lives in the evac's? Hell yes and some have paid with their lives or put themselves in mortal danger.

Rant over

That said I hope BA (my ex employer) finally sort out this mess, the BASSA cancer needs to be removed once and for all for the sake of non striking CC and the rest of the staff that are dependant of BA for their wages

[bubblesuk]

Its fairly clear from the statement from WW and the rostering of volunteers from tomorrow that sackings are coming, have to hand it to Mr Walsh in giving a fairly big hint to Bassa of where this is going. Pity they won't take notice. If CC think it won't happen then they, in my opinion, are deluded, whilst not down playing their role lets be honest here its not the most skilled job in the world, it won't be difficult or take long to replace them.

[MPN11]

I would guess the biggest constraint would be training throughput ... back of this envelope says at least 6 months, possibly 9.

An adult will undoubtedly advise shortly.

[cym]

Take it you watch every safely demo and read the safety card to an extent that you could be self sufficent in the case of an emergency?

Ever done SEP's training and exams? Thought not!

Please do not denigrate CC that one day will save passengers lives

The BA dispute is wrong, BASSA is wrong but CC are there for a very vaid reason

[cym]

agree to disagree

You cant just pull anyone off the street and expect them to be competent at the job.

In my opinon it takes a good 6 months to be fully used to the role, at the start its overwhelming

[wiggy]

The revelation on the CC Thread that volunteer CC are being rostered from tomorrow also conveys a message.


I suspect somebody's jumped the gun with that statement. The company have certainly been trying to contact the volunteers in the last few hours to establish their availability over the next few weeks, but I don't think they are being rostered for trips on the 13th...then again................

[bubblesuk]

It was not my intention to denigrate your roles. I was merely saying that compared to other jobs the training isn't that great, yes you play a vital and neccasery role but the cost and time needed to replace cabin crew compared to other industries is very little.

I havent done SEPS etc but i have done numerous exams during the 4 years of training for my profession, not to mention the numerous safety course, first aid courses, working at heights.....the list goes on.

[jethrobee]

HI Baggers,
I was in a similar situation last strike, I am not allowing myself to go back to BA before this debacle is sorted out, I cant put my own business and my customers at risk because of this.

I really admire your loyalty, but depending where in the world you are traveling you might be pleasantly surprised by what other carriers have to offer. I am off to Australia on Saturday and giving Ethiad's business class a spin.

My last flight 2 weeks ago to the USA was with Virgin, they were fabulous, far better than I remembered from the last time.

I have another 2 long haul trips coming during the strike period, both have been booked with other carriers (Virgin again for the USA, and Air France for the South African trip).

Maybe once this is all sorted out i'll come back to BA, I am personally upset, since I have been a gold card holder with BA for 11 years on the trot, I have plenty of time this membership year to retain it, after the strike period, as long as I have a business left of course :)

Cheers
Jeth

[PPRuNe Pop]

The Air Navigation Order of 14th April 2010 requires that there will be 1 (one) cabin crew per 50 pax or fraction of 50 pax per installed seats.

[BOAC]

Re training: If you are just going for 'junior' crew positions, single type, I reckon 3 weeks will be fine if it is well planned. If push comes to shove, you can forget all the 'customer service' bits of the training and just cover safety.

[cym]

Yes, but the worst case outcomes are very differnt

- Tesco - queue's at checkout
- Starbucks - sub standard latte
- Natwest - higher bank charges
CC -??? where did you say the door was? Soz I was reading a paper and dont know how to put on a lifevest? The guy next to you appears to he having a heat attack what should I do?

Happy to deal with such situations every time you go to work?

Give them a break

[beaudale]

Yes, but the worst case outcomes are very different

- Tesco - queue's at checkout
- Starbucks - sub standard latte
CC -???


Please enlighten us, what exactly is the worst case outcome? - Who exactly is flying the aircraft?

This sentiment goes a long way to exposing some of the mentality that has led to the IA, a much overstated sense of self importance that has long been abused.

As far as I can see the ultimate worst case outcome the CC can bring about is the cancelled flight caused by not turning up for work as a result of misguided IA.

[cym]

errm. people die

Do you understand the primapry role of CC?

And yet again I do not support the BA IA.

I have however done the job and ask that this anti CC tirade stops.

I totally appreciate pax frustrations but we do play a key part in keeping you safe. Dont tar us all with the same brush and please accept that we do add SIGNIFIANT value to your wellbeing

[beaudale]

Erm - How?

[PAXboy]

beaudale Welcome aboard and, if I may make so bold, if your next post is like your last - it will be your last! You might want to read more of the thread and read the FAQ? Also check out posts from the late pencisely, he understands how the system works. Of course, you might have been following this forum for some time as a guest. If so, you will know that PPRuNe is run by one man as a dictatorship and all the Moderators follow a set of rules. Further, the Mods are volunteers who do this in their spare time. Our Mod TightSlot has a full time working job in the airline world and is familiar with pax, cabin crew and the whole shooting match.

Enjoy your time here ...

[TightSlot]

This thread has enjoyed a very wide degree of latitude and tolerance from the start, partly in recognition of the frustration engendered by the strikes and partly because of the frustration created by the restriction on posting in the CC forum.

May I remind all of you that the BA strike does not involve all BA crew and neither does it involve crew from other airlines who, like many BA crew, simply go to work each day to do their best for everybody - an in general succeed.

It is apparent that some of you hold FA's in very low esteem, if not contempt, both as a group of people, and as a job. That is your privilege, but as a matter of simple courtesy, as long as you are posting on a site primarily used by air crew, it is reasonable to expect that you dial down the public expressions of contempt on a general basis.

Thank you

[glad rag]

Strange how a mod can crow about banning a SLF arguing the case for a reduction in CC, perhaps a bit too close to the bone??

CC need to realise that they are in danger of being seen as nothing more than a impediment to air travel.

So you have been trained to operate emergency and safety equipment, well guess what, a lot of your PAX do that, and more; there is NOTHING special about what you do in your duties, get your heads around that and it's a starting place.

[beaudale]

Believe me I do understand a lot more about flying and the industry than any of you might give me credit for.

I think the points I raise are indeed very valid and it would be nice to receive an explanatory response.

My line of argument seems to have touched several nerves which is surprising given this is a Pax forum.

Nowadays I do spend a lot of time as a Pax and one who is increasingly frustrated by this nonsense IA. If I were doing WW's job I would certainly be actively progressing, as I am sure here is, the mechanism for firing the whole lot. Furthermore I would be starting to explore for the longer term how cc can be removed from the aircraft altogether or at least significantly reduced in number.

Please advise me what is invalid about the comparison with a Eurostar train, 800 Pax, 1 CC?

[Alsacienne]

CC need to realise that they are in danger of being seen as nothing more than a impediment to air travel.

So you have been trained to operate emergency and safety equipment, well guess what, a lot of your PAX do that, and more; there is NOTHING special about what you do in your duties, get your heads around that and it's a starting place.

Gladrag, in my personal opinion your post smacks of unnecessary self-conceit. If you have never been CC how can you possibly understand all that goes with the job.

And courtesy costs nothing, even in cyberspace.

[PAXboy]

Come on you folks, do your best to lower the debate, to ruin long built trust and make sure that those who are genuinely interested in safe air travel want to leave. There are countless forums in the world where you can mouth off, happily, this is not one of them.

[PAXboy draws up a chair and sits back to watch the entertainment. :D]

[cym]

where is o2 on a 767?emergency med kits? how do you deal with galley or toliet fires? what checks to you need to carry out before using a door in the case of an emergency landing?

words fail me

[bubblesuk]

Like i said earlier, i am not downplaying your role at all, It is one of great importance but in the grand scheme of things and compared to other roles it isn't that big a job. Yes the worst case scenerio is loss of life if it goes wrong but again thats the case in other walks of life. The issue that the CC who are striking will soon be facing is one of job losses, Six months to train somebody is not very long and with quite a few volunteer crew lined up CC are soon going to find out just how easily replacable they are, far easier i would imagine than the customers that BA will be loseing. If i was a Employee considering strikeing then i would pay close attention to the statement from Mr Walsh thats been copied on this forum.

[Sick Squid]

Just for your general illumination, I wrote the set of rules the moderators follow back in 2003. Not Danny, me, with help advice and input from all the other moderators.

This is NOT a dictatorship. If you could see the level of debate between moderators you would see how seriously we treat this voluntary role. Tightslot is completely correct, you have no absolute right to post on here, and given the nature of the site it is not untoward to expect a degree of respect to be shown towards those towards whom the site is aimed. That, fundamentally, is the crew on board an aircraft, and not the passengers. This area of the forum has been set up to allow debate and interaction between passengers and crew, and the expectation of a degree of respect to be shown is not unreasonable. For your information, the other forum moderators are 100% behind the way this thread, and the other threads relating to this dispute are being ran. I am posting in my role as a moderator with a remit over the entire site, and in support of the moderators handling this thread.

So basically, we understand how this issue will inflame passions and opinions. We are more than aware that this particular arena of the site will attract comment negative towards cabin crew. But that does not give you carte blanche to continually thrust your particular point of view, regardless of any reasonable moderator input, into the face of every poster on the site. Bear in mind that you are talking to humans, not numbers on a computer, but humans.

Respect the opinons that are contrary to your own, respect the safety-critical job that is under debate here, and respect the simple fact that you are given this place to vent your frustrations by the, again, simple fact that those of us who can influence the running of this site have realised that there is a reason to allow passengers their place to speak.

That action does not give you the right to continually demean Cabin Crew, and myself and the other moderators, whose input you may not always see, stand fully behind the way this forum is being ran.

And for the record, no. I'm not Cabin Crew. But I back Tightslot's actions fully, and personally look to this forum as an exemplar of how to moderate such a diverse public.

Squid

[cym]

whilst I stick by all my posts and welcome PM's from those who may disagree and welcome debate I do feel that I have unintentionally taken this tread off track.

As such, to all passengers (BA or not) I apologise and withdraw

Safe flying to you all

[Winch-control]

Now here is a funny thing, on a Pacific Blue flight earlier this week, sitting on a 737 (row 15 emergency exit) and was briefed by the CC what to do in the event of emergency, part of which is to get the life rafts from the overhead stowage in the aisle roof before jettisoning the emergency exit (having checked outside for fire etc fiirst)... all makes sense but oops!

Do we take them if we crash on the land I ask? Fortunately CC had a sense of humour (best safety brief ever by the way and the service was fantastic, and yes I did thank them).

Now even though the 737 I flew on from Perth to Sydney (Virgin Blue) flies for 2 hours over water (again I was in row 15) I was not briefed on life raft removal, but was on the emergency exit procedure.

Anyway my point? Well I understand the CAA set the numbers i.e CC to pax/aircraft type, but clearly it is not set by emergency exit numbers as on this 737 (same is true of Qantas and Virgin Blue). On this flight there were only 59 pax (4 CC), so on a 747, for example 400 pax = 8 crew? How does it work?

And how is the duty of care to those passengers that do not have a CC member at the emergency exit equate to those that do?

Bottom line, if BA are able to afford to place CC on a/c to 'man up' every exit, then they get my vote, I believe the training, expertise and familiarity in the event of an emergency being paramount; Ultimately you are not paid for what you do, but what you know; ergo, if you never use the training and experience you have, Great... however, when the proverbial does hit the fan...:ok:

Oops apologies CC = FA, old skool I'm afraid, ie not flightdeck crew but pilot/co

[TightSlot]

Worth pointing out that the CAA rules affect British registered aircraft, not Australian.

The minimum crew is set by a combination of the 1/50 or part rule and a requirement for a crew member at each 'Main' door. Hence, for example, a 747 with 10 main deck doors and 2 upper deck doors would require a minimum crew of 12, one for each main door, even though the actual passenger capacity is not between 551 and 600 (1/50 or part). There is some scope for minor variation, but this must be authorised by the CAA: For example a charter 757 (a narrow body aircraft) in a 235 config has a legal minimum crew of 5 (1/50) although it has 8 'Main' doors. The minimum rises to 6 on ETOPS sectors, because of the life-raft requirement. A 737 has 4 'Main' doors with a minimum crew of 3 (737-800 can be 4) under the 1/50 rule.

737 o/wing exits are not classified as 'doors', but 'exits', and in the UK, classified as 'Self-Help' exits i.e. a briefing to pax is sufficient, together with restrictions on who may occupy those seats.

Life rafts are carried as additional equipment on ETOPS sectors: PER-SYD may fly over water, but probably not under ETOPS flight rules and therefore there would be no requirement to brief for ETOPS equipment.

The long and the short of it is that the minimum crew is set by the licensing authority, and airlines do not have the right to vary the minimum on an ad-hoc basis.

May we now move off this subject and back on-topic please

[Winch-control]

Superb reply TightSlot, My Thanks.:ok: and apologies for my ignorance and thread drift.

[Diplome]

I'm absolutely stunned that there are individuals who believe that life without CC would be acceptable.

I understand that there are those individuals that simply wish to get there safely and as cheaply as possible. However, there are many of us who actually look forward to knowing that while we are flying to our various destinations we will be made as comfortable as possible and that simply can't happen without professional Cabin Crew.

My feeling towards BASSA's leadership and its more militant members has developed into a feeling of what is best described as amusement and disdain at times...but even I would never wish for flights without that wonderful person offering me a glass of champagne with a smile. Perish the thought!!!!

[BOAC]

I.A.W Tightslot's request:)

BA reckon they will fly more than 70% of their customers during the strike period - a terrific achievement - and I'm sure the service and smiles those 70%+ see will be rewarding indeed. A full programme is expected at LGW and LCY.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

BOAC

Are we to see more "Flystar" aircraft in LHR over the forthcoming strike action? I do hope so, Had the good fortune to be on one of AEU's aircraft on a BA replacement. Very good service.....infact, whilst not wanting to anger the BA CC on here, better than BA! Shame you guys pulled out of the IT market.

[MPN11]

As you all know, the first week of flight schedules has been released on ba.com

My LH on Wednesday, LHR-IAD, was cancelled. It appears that route has had capacity reduced by some 50% by the withdrawal of the late morning departure.

A call to BA, answered almost immediately, got us re-booked on the afternoon flight ... and the subsequent return sectors adjusted as well. A couple of minutes later, our revised itinerary was on-screen ready for printing.

Now I call that GOOD service under the prevailing circumstances. :ok:

[Winch-control]

I think we should get this down to the nuts and bolts...

BA CC do a great job, (for me no argument there) however, so do all the other airlines out there.
(yes, right across the board! lo cost high cost, call them what you like!).

And for pax to comment on how much better the BA service is without the striking crew speaks volumes....

[BOAC]

BBB - no idea - I've been out of that for over a year and now a (gentle)man of retired 'leisure' - actually I have never been so busy. :) In short, I would expect so. I think BA will be trawling everywhere for capacity. Problem will be that the season has started, and thus less spare capacity in general.

[MPN11]

And for pax to comment on how much better the BA service is without the striking crew speaks volumes....

Harsh, but perhaps fair in SOME areas.

I have always experienced excellent service on Domestic and SH out of LGW.
I have usually experienced indifferent service on LH out of LHR to the East Coast.

I prefer my criticisms to be accurately targetted ;)

[Diplome]

Not very democratic


This is a privately owned board...democracy has nothing to do with it. :)

Personally I like having CC and other employees join in from time to time.

Objections aren't made regarding differences of opinion unless they get to the point where its not a reasoned opinion, its simply a smear for venting's sake.

MP11, I agree...what is it with Gatwick? I've experienced and heard nothing but positive regarding their Cabin Crew.

[MPN11]

@ Diplome ...

MPN11, I agree...what is it with Gatwick? I've experienced and heard nothing but positive regarding their Cabin Crew.

I have no idea.
I use JER-LGW, where somehow the CC manage to do a full 'quickie meal' with wine on a 45 minute sector. You can hardly eat it before "top of drop", but there's no shortcuts on the quality of service.
Last year I used LGW-MLA ... same experience. Charming and efficient CC, smiles everywhere and nothing too much trouble.
:ok:

Great people ... can we have them replace the 'NFI' staff at LHR on the services to the US East Coast?

[Diplome]

Great people ... can we have them replace the 'NFI' staff at LHR on the services to the US East Coast?


Sigh..unfortunately BA, like this forum, isn't a democracy either. Otherwise I'd definitely vote for that.

Timely that you should mention Gatwick. The Director of our Business Development division was our guest for a few days and last night at dinner the subject of the strike came up.

When I mentioned the fact that there was a definite line of separation between Gatwick and LHR Cabin Crew he paused and said "I didn't know that. Perhaps that's why I enjoy my Gatwick flights and prefer Delta back to the States."

[LD12986]

Re: the differences between LGW and LHR, I suspect it's partly because LGW crew are less likely to take their passengers' business for granted than LHR and there isn't the pernicious influence of the BASSA hotheads on CC. Also, given the LHR pay structure there's a fair number of crew who should have left years ago but can't/won't because of the pay and the lifestyle.

[MPN11]

I wouldn't comment on the reasons ... I just assure you that difference is dramatic [and encountered on a regular basis].


OK - I'll agree with 'LD12986' on a general conceptual up-for-negotation basis.

[fincastle84]

I think that the major difference between the LGW & LHR Cabin Crew is the average age. Whilst I have always received excellent service from both bases, the LGW CC must, on average, be 20 years younger than their LHR colleagues.

Therefore, NO 58 years old CSDs protecting their status & allowances!

[MPN11]

Now, now, Finky ... respect for the aged, please, and no gratuitous dissing of CC :=

I will admit I have never tried to analyse the ages of CC on my various flights recently, but the OH has bought me a new notebook to record [accurately] our experiences next week.

BTW, Mr Walsh, I'm available as a 'secret shopper' any time you care to call. :cool:

[Der absolute Hammer]

I have not been able to read all of this thread and the other one. That is the one from which all those apparently persecuted by BA, or persecuted by those who are persecuted by BA are banned.
But from the little reading here and there, I thinks that when all the chaos was happening because of the eruption of Eyjafjallajokul there were many British Airways passengers who were stranded in various places through out the world.
It is my thoughts that BA made serious efforts to bring these passangers back to England as speedily as possible. It is further what I understand that BASSA and UNITE absolutely refused to bend the agreements they have with BA even the tiniest little bit, thereby enormously adding to the misery and expense of passangers who were left stranded, not by British Airways, because the strike was not even on then, but by the BASSA people themselves.
What has been written above is only my uinderstanding and it is not a statement of fact. However, I am a little astonished that it would appear that the British press would also seem not to have picked up this story if it is true. This of course, since the British press is so excellent, probably means that the story is entirely, as you say, apocryphal. (?) So what happens now when, as seismologists and geologists seem to be thinking is going to happen and Katla goes boom? Will BASSA allow its agreements or whatever they may be terminologied, to be flexible to save the citizens or will it not ride to the top of the hill to plant the Joe Rosenthal it so proudly and possibly disgracefully inappropriately claims as its own logo?

[MPN11]

If Katla goes boom, shares in Cunard and any other cross-Atlantic ship carrier will soar.

Personally, I can think of better ways to spend 4 days watching waves - 8 hours of watching clouds is quite enough! ;)

[fincastle84]

I wasn't dissing BA CC. As I said in my preamble, I have always received excellent service from CC members from both bases. But on my LHR flights, I have rarely been aware of the prescence of the CSD, unlike on my LGW flights.

I was just expessing an opinion as to the age & dedication, or lack of, of some aged LHR based CSDs.

Discuss?

[MPN11]

Finky, I misread you, for which apologies. OK? :cool:

The difference between the LGW and LHR pax service is, however, exactly as you describe.

I just wouldn't attribute it to the age of the CC, mainly because on LHR LH I hardly ever see them, so I couldn't possibly comment ;)

[fincastle84]

Absolutely no apologies required.:ok:

I'm sure that you'll have a great flight to IAD. I'm also pleased that you received such great assistance from BA in changing your flights, as I did prior to the planned Christmas strike.

The money markets are still showing strong support for WW, judging by the share price.

[Landroger]

There are many things concerning this dispute that I don't understand - some of the terminology is but one, small, item which constant reading tends to clarify - but currently the most unfathomable is BASSA's thinking over the last few weeks. To be sure, 'thinking' and 'BASSA' are words not often accurately linked in this matter, but the sheer stupidity - I can think of no better word - of the BASSA leadership is breath taking.

If their leadership had sat down to discuss their next action, with the specific objective of making the worst, possible decision for their membership, this would probably be it. :ugh: It is almost impossible to imagine a more destructive decision, in the circumstances - one wonders if Willie Walsh sometimes has to rethink his strategy because he keeps granting the BASSA leadership an average amount of intelligence and they keep proving him wrong! :=

There is another aspect that BASSA either doesn't understand, doesn't know, is trying to ignore or wishes it didn't know. As I have said before, I have read all of the BA/BASSA thread and all of this one and it is possible to 'sense' the strength of feeling in the rest of BA. After the 23 day strike announcement, the strength of feeling against BASSA in all the other departments who have negotiated and agreed with BA, who are now 'pulling out all the stops' to ensure the continuation of BA as a viable entity, is quite extraordinary.

It is not difficult to imagine the baggage handlers, for example, as having quite strong union membership - UNITE membership indeed - yet these people feel genuinely threatened by the BASSA action and are ready, willing and able to take strike breaking action. There have been several posts by people who are definitely working well above and beyond normal working practice with the sole objective of breaking the BASSA industrial action. This fact alone should make any proactive, thinking, caring union, sit up and take lots of notice.

BASSA, it seems, are either unaware or completely unconcerned. I am very much afraid that those who go on strike in the next tranche' will be the very first to cry 'foul' and 'its so unfair' to a crowded dole office. After so long and so many people trying to tell them how it really is, it is difficult to see them as anything else but volunteers. :confused:

Roger

[pj67coll]

BASSA, it seems, are either unaware or completely unconcerned. I am very much afraid that those who go on strike in the next tranche' will be the very first to cry 'foul' and 'its so unfair' to a crowded dole office.

I can only hope they will be in need of that dole office in the very near future. If I were Walsh I'd be wanting them thrown out with the rest of the trash as soon as possible.

A colleague of my wife has just been informed her flight on the 24th (Phoenix to London) has been canceled. As a teacher she's not exactly able to just dip into a vast pool of cash to buy another ticket. I certainly hope she'll be able to get her money back from BA and book another airline in time or her dream vacation to Italy will be wrecked.

These Bassa idiots need to be treated with the contempt they deserve.

- Peter.

[Mariner9]

I've just seen an interview with the new Transport Secretary Phillip Hammond.

Apparently he's having a meeting with BA and UNITE "next week". :rolleyes:

The strike is due to start Tuesday for Gods sake. If I'd have been the new Transport Sec I'd have got them in today and not let them out again until either UNITE agree to stop their pointless destructive strike and start looking after ALL their members interests, but if they refuse, instruct WW to issue P45's to all those striking on the first and (if any) subsequent days of the strike. This insanity has got to be stopped once and for all.

[finncapt]

Mr Walsh was accused of intimidating strikers before the last strike with the removal of staff travel.

If I was him, this time, I would not announce any action in advance of the strike.

I would have a fleet of couriers ready to deliver a sacking notice by hand to each striker as soon as they went on strike.

Yes they could claim unfair dismissal.

How long would the strike last and how many couriers would he need?

[GemDeveloper]

There seems to be a number of posts recently where “flog ‘em and hang ‘em” or “feed ‘em to the sharks” seem to be the underlying sentiments.

I think we have to remember that there is a very large number of people watching… and one of the most, probably the most, interested group of stakeholders is the ‘sensible’ staff of BA, the CC who have not chosen to follow blindly the BASSA lead, yes, and also all the other staff groups, who collectively seem to have the long term interests of the Company at heart.

When this whole thing is over, the problem remains of rebuilding the Company so that it really is ‘One Team’, and can go on to do great things. There is no doubt that the removal of the militant tendency from the CC will facilitate that process; but the fact remains that there are deep wounds in the organisation. Everyone who chooses, or is chosen, to stay is going to have to make sure that their words and deeds reflect a new start, or the whole cancerous debacle will repeat itself. And then one will have to ask if the surgeon knew his task.

So WW Is constrained not only by the legality of his next moves, but also by the need to keep the other BA staff ‘on side’; and to do that, he must be seen to be fair and reasonable, however tough.

[binsleepen]

Many long haul trips last longer than 4 days. If someone on a 4 day or longer trip did not turn up as scheduled on the 9 June (the last day of the strike) they would obviously not be available to carry out their duties after June 12 when the strikers lose their protection. Would these individuals be considered as taking unlawful industrial action? Could BA then start disciplinerary action against them?

Regards