BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions

[nicolai]

There is nothing alleged about it, I saw the feed. The man is a fool.

While the twitt.r account "derekamicus" does not exist any more, the cached page at Google is still there. (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sdj1jYT_nLoJ:twitter.com/derekamicus+derek+simpson+twitter&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&) Is that the postings you are referring to?

(Aside to the powers that be at PPRuNe, replacing "t w i t t e r" by "PPRuNe" automatically is MOST UNHELPFUL. If you don't want it mentioned at least just make it t****** or similar)

[ChicoG]

One of the basic tenets of ACAS is confidentiality of discussions:

Although largely funded by the Department for Business Innovation & Skills (BIS), Acas is a non-departmental body, governed by an independent Council. This allows us to be independent, impartial and confidential.

By his actions, Simpson has demonstrated a breach of trust. ACAS would be well within their rights to bar him from future proceedings.

The fact that both BA and ACAS have chosen to turn a blind eye to this shameful act shows that they are trying hard to overcome the constant obstacles that this witless bunch of 70s union cretins keep trying to put in the path to settlement.

Personally, I'd have dynamited the shallow end of the gene pool a long time ago.

[RTR]

Its a bit rich when Derek Simpson calls the cabin "deluded clowns" and he now finds himself wearing a clowns hat! That was a crass thing to do.

The following quote gives room for your own conclusions but it doesn't include Willie being responsible for the farce yesterday................but:

Right to Work conference shows opposition to BA boss Willie Walsh|22May10|Socialist Worker (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=21303)

[LD12986]

An article on the situation Tony Woodley finds himself in from today's Observer:

Can Unite's Tony Woodley forge a last-minute deal to avert the BA strike? | Business | The Observer (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/23/ba-strike-tony-woodley-unite)

[Mariner9]

Dilome - happy to disagree re importance of T.w.i.t.t.e.r. My view is that as WW has to negotiate with a dishonourable union, one more example of poor conduct doesn't really change things.

On another point, I note in that Socialist Worker article a BA CC claims he/she is on a £12k basic. If so, what the heck has he/she to fear from New Fleet and the much feared "£12K basic" then? Ergo, he/she is either lying over salary (sorry to put it so bluntly) or striking over something else. Cant be ST; why strike last time over no loss of pay regardless of New Fleet. Perhaps he/she is one of those facing disciplinaries?

[Jipperty]

Saw various reports about T5 being like a ghost town last week, having travelled out of it on the morning of the 21st I can confirm it was anything but.

Sadly however the full effect of this IA was evident on the morning LHR - DEL which carried no more than 50 Pax. On the day that BA announced a £530m loss this seems a very hollow victory for the strikers.

The CC were very pleasant but statistically probably included a number of those responsible. There was a sense of smugness eminating from some at the sight of the near empty a/c and the easy money for the duty.

From my own perspective if ever I boarded a BA a/c in future and encountered any of the sun tanned muppets appearing behind Woodley on the steps outside the high court I would refuse to have them serve me. If this meant going without for the duration then so be it. In fact for me it is the prospect of encountering such a species in future which is more likely to lead to booking with alternates than any other factor.

WW needs to bring this to a head and clear the rubbish out right now, only then can we start to restore the badly damaged image of the airline and for that matter UK Inc both home and abroad.

I am reminded that the Dinosaurs did gather in groups before becoming extinct.

[Diplome]

Mariner9:

I'm always a bit amused when they state their "basic" pay and neglect to enlighten their audience regarding all the other pay schemes they benefit from.

..and a good point about New Fleet.

[crewmeal]

Jipperty

I am reminded that the Dinosaurs did gather in groups before becoming extinct.

With that remark are you referring to older Cabin Crew who have been flying for a good number of years and have a lot of essential experience under their belts?

[pb3]

I agree, Landroger, it can get dangerous.

It seems a corner was turned this weekend during the SW's protests. Mr. Walsh's safety was actually threatened by an invasive mob some of whom allegedly were chanting "k*ll willie" (according to some news reports.).



Not sure I agree with this. The brief news clips I saw this morning showed WW in the midst of the protesters chatting calmly away on his mobile phone. He did not appear at all concerned about his personal safety. The protesters were holding their signs up (towards the cameras of course) and not even looking at him :).

The only one looking as if he wanted to kill someone was Tony Woodley. He appeared absolutely furious - the protesters at the front of the invading party appeared somewhat taken aback. :)

[button44]

No, I should think they mean those that are gathered together under the Bassa banner....it beggars belief that they fail to see the economic climate around them. I feel so sorry for the moderate CC , who have the intelligence to realise that change had to happen and then the courage to work through this mess.....Good Luck to them!:D

[Jipperty]

With that remark are you referring to older Cabin Crew who have been flying for a good number of years and have a lot of essential experience under their belts?


No it is a reference to a mind set, the one that subscribes to the following views -


My employer owes me a living on out dated termns and conditions irrespective of how the world it operates in may have changed
I should cane my employer for everything I can get out of them
I do not need to concern myself with how my employer makes a living
It is my responsibility (and not the boards) to protect my employers brand
I will resist all change
I will blinker myself to the reality of my market value and obvious expendability
My union knows best and will look after me
I have no regard for my employer, fellow employees, associated businesses and the image of the countryTo cite but a few of the issues at the core of this dispute.

Sadly the various TV images and BASSA promoted footage seems to confirm an association between the so called older crew members and the afore-mentioned mind set.

[LD12986]

Today's talks are now off according to BBC News.

[fincastle84]

Woodley announces a 'catastrophic' break down in talks. I imagine we have that tw*t Simpson to thank for that. What an imbecile, he ought to join Bassa as they have similar IQs.

[Diplome]

fincastle:

I'm inclined to think the problem is between Unite and BASSA.

There was no "catastrophic breakdown" announced yesterday. In fact the Union was stating that they were willing to meet today.

This may really be about the jobs of a few BASSA reps due to BA refusing to interject politics into the disciplinary process.

Simpson should be ashamed of himself.

[plane speak]

So all eyes now on the number of crew who disregard the strike call this time, and no doubt there will be lots of claim and counter claim about the numbers. But this time the stakes are higher then just travel perks. No doubt BA will want to assess how many additional crew would be required to run a 100% operation, and consider a rapid recruitment exercise into 'new fleet'. A big call, but starting to look inevitable I fear.

[Chuchinchow]

I am reminded that the Dinosaurs did gather in groups before becoming extinct.


JippertyWith that remark are you referring to older Cabin Crew who have been flying for a good number of years and have a lot of essential experience under their belts?



Crewmeal, I think that you can put whatever construction you like on Jipperty's statement.

The original "cause" of this dispute was over the removal of a flight attendant from LH flights - thus causing the CSD to get off his/her backside and to push trolleys up and down the cabins.

British Airways' passengers (you might just recall that their fares pay a large proportion of your salaries and allowances) are fed up to the back teeth with the puerile antics of BASSA, your union.

This thread is the only place in which we, the salary-payers, can vent our disgust at the appalling damage BASSA is doing to its members, to those members' livelihoods, to those members' employer's very viability, and to Britain's economy.

So, Crewmeal, if the cap fits . . .

[radeng]

If a flight is running, and standard meals will be served, why during this IA can't special meals be served?

[interpreter]

This strike could well be the downfall of BASSA - let's hope so. WW has displayed extreme tolerance of totally unprofessional conduct by Simpson and a mass of ill-considered protestations from striking staff. Guys, the world has moved on. The old days of big perks and benefits are not there any more. Take what you are offered and be thankful you have a job. Thousands of the unemployed would jump at the chance of taking over from you.
As for those who relied on "perks" to get to and from work the foolishness of this strategy is now apparent. Find another job where you live or move back to nearer your base. You made your bed, now lie on it.

[ExecClubPax]

So what happened today? On the Andrew Marr show, Mr Walsh was quite clear and optimistic that further talks would be held later in the day. So why then have United failed to "come out to play"? Could it be that Tony Woodley has finally lost his rag with BASSA and said, in effect, "let's see just how much support you have for this strike".

I guess there will be many cabin crew who were dreading this moment. Its make up your mind time and vote with your feet - support your employer and its customers by turning up for work, or support your Union by attending Bedfont FC's ground. At least the weather will be kind to the strikers tomorrow.

Good luck to all those brave enough to turn up for work and more power to your elbow to all those volunteering for flight duty. Happy landings.

[BetterByBoat]

From - BBC News - Unite union says BA strike to go ahead (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10143076.stm)

"While it comes after a long-running dispute over jobs, pay and working conditions, Unite says the latest industrial action is over disciplinary action against some of its members, and the removal of travel perks following the strikes in March."

Can the Unite \ BASSA call a strike on any grounds? Or only on grounds of the original ballot? Just wonder if we might see another court appearance soon questioning the legality of the strike (although WW comments underneath the quote from Unite suggests we won't).

Roll on June 12th ........

[call100]

This strike could well be the downfall of BASSA - let's hope so. WW has displayed extreme tolerance of totally unprofessional conduct by Simpson and a mass of ill-considered protestations from striking staff. Guys, the world has moved on. The old days of big perks and benefits are not there any more. Take what you are offered and be thankful you have a job. Thousands of the unemployed would jump at the chance of taking over from you.
As for those who relied on "perks" to get to and from work the foolishness of this strategy is now apparent. Find another job where you live or move back to nearer your base. You made your bed, now lie on it.
Unless of course you are senior management or a director!
I believe that this strike should have been sorted months ago across a negotiating table. Both sides failed their respective responsibilities and should be ashamed....
What has amazed me about this thread is that it's OK for posters to do what they abhor in the CC...Name call....I can see the frustration of many posters coming out in the playground atmosphere of trying to find some expletive that will not be censored.
One thing is certain....None of it made a jot of difference either way to the dispute...
If it had been any other airline, would the vitriolic comments still filled 89 pages?

[Chuchinchow]

If it had been any other airline, would the vitriolic comments still filled 89 pages?

Possibly not, Call100, but these 89 full pages of comments are an indication of passengers' frustrations, annoyance and desperation at the idiocy shown by a group of 1970s-style industrial saboteurs.

For the avoidance of any possible doubt, I refer to the British Airlines Stewards and Stewardesses Association, the architects of this economic disaster.

[fincastle84]

I believe that this strike should have been sorted months ago across a negotiating table.

In the ideal world I totally agree, but it takes 2 to tango. Throughout, Bassa has been totally intransigent & consequently are about to reap the whirlwind of well deserved mass redundancies.

[wiggy]

I believe that this strike should have been sorted months ago across a negotiating table

Which is what most other groups who were involved in negotiating with BA managed to do, without even threatening Industrial Action. I guess the BASSA Reps felt they were special and didn't need to negotiate.

[Neptunus Rex]

I think that there is a very good chance that by Day 4 of this coming strike, BA will be flying well in excess of 90% of its schedule.
BASSA is going down the gurgler!

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/toilet_claw.gif

[Capot]

If it had been any other airline, would the vitriolic comments still filled 89 pages?

I suspect you're confusing ppruners' usual propensity to criticise BA with their propensity on this thread to support BA against BASSA.

No doubt when the dust has settled we'll all go back to normal habits.

But for the moment we're right behind Mr Walsh as far as I can tell, and would support public flogging of Unite's leaders, BASSA's leaders, and those who actually go on strike, if any do.

Strangely enough, there is a measurable growth of antipathy, hatred even, for BASSA/Unite on the CC thread on the same subject.

[Diplome]

Interesting offer by Woodly.

It reveals that Unite desperately doesn't want this strike, that's become obvious.

Will BA blink? Heaven's I hope not.

[Doors To Manuel]

Woodley's 'offer' is no such thing. It is nothing more than a blatant demand for essentially everthing the union still wants and has not yet got, and in return for which he will.................................return to the negotiating table :ugh:
Very good of him!

[fincastle84]

I'm sure that there is a huge difference between what Woodley is telling the media & what is exactly being offered. As usual the BBC has swallowed it hook, line & sinker & have opined that 'The ball is now firmly in Mr Walsh's court to accept this generous offer'.

I despair at the BBC's naivety & left wing bias.

[Basil]

The BBC is a mouthpiece of the left and has been for decades.

[Tin67]

As much as I would like to see the strikes called off, I am hoping WW does not reinstate the ST.

They were warned that ST would be withdrawn for those that chose to strike, so in my mind they must suffer the consequences.

TW's request to WW just reeks of desperation from a union that's on the ropes.

[Mariner9]

Sadly I don't think it was desperation, it was tactically, a good move by TW.

TW knew that by yesterday saying that the talks would resume today but then having to backtrack today (presumably thanks to BASSA) was a PR disaster, and he could no longer claim that WW's intransigence was the reason for the strike.

Now with this "magnanimous" offer he's got the media firmly back onside that WW is "the problem".

Not true as we all know on here, but the media appear constantly willing to believe BASSA/Unite spin.

[Lou Scannon]

On no...does the strike mean the end of the BASSA proposed Iberia/American/British Airways/ Socialist Worker Alliance?

[pj67coll]

Does anyone know how soon after BA cancels a flight you can get a refund?

[RTR]

This is becoming a farce. The two union secretaries are as inept as it is possible to be and are clearly out of their depth with WW. It has repeatedly been pointed out that they cannot be taken seriously and are being led around the stable like headless chickens. BASSA doing the leading with someone who should NOT be leading them. He is NOT employed by BA anymore - they have said so. Yet he is encouraging them to chant whatever he dictates. There is something rotten with BASSA and it stinks.

Willie will fly tomorrow and has chosen not to fall for Woodley's cheap shot this afternoon. He will I am sure be ready with a plan that will, once and for all see BASSA into the swamp they have been heading for.

[plane speak]

Latest tweets from dereksimpsonjgs (https://m.twitter.com/dereksimpsonjgs). This is a strange way to conduct a dispute.

Willy Walsh claiming Unite refused a meeting despite BA saying earlier they were not bothered about meeting today but maybe next week!!No wonder Willy is upset by tweets seems when the issue get out other than by his media some light is shed on the real issuesTo those who think this BA dispute is about travel 'perks' it isn't there are serious issues to sort out our offer was to give time to do soRestoring travel fully having vindictively withdrawn it would not cost BA anything ... But they have chosen to let the strike happenNo doubt Willy will be blaming Unite for disrupting passengers when all he had to do at no cost was to give back what he had taken

[Diplome]

Plane speak:

Thank you for the post.

At times I have to shake my head at how poorly these "leaders" communicate.

This comment


To those who think this BA dispute is about travel 'perks' it isn't there are serious issues to sort out our offer was to give time to do so


works in BA's favor. First Unite is claiming that its almost a done deal, just give us our staff travel and we can wrap this up in a couple of days, then we hear that the situation is serious.

Unite and BASSA have no idea what's going on with each other let alone BA.

I'm most pleased for the majority of hard working Cabin Crew who backed BA and worked during the last strikes. To give back staff travel voluntarily would have been a serious blow to morale.

[4t2b]

Does anyone know how soon after BA cancels a flight you can get a refund?

Don't hold your breath, I am still waiting 4 weeks on for a simple standard travel insurance letter from Customer Services(misnomer if ever there was one !). My problem was the Ash Cloud but it would seem that there are so many people away from their desks learning how to serve coffee, airborne, that the rest of the business has gone out of the window.

Rant over, I am sure it will come some time and I DO understand that my probs are trivial in the scale of things !!!:rolleyes:

[Phil Rigg]

It is abundantly clear that we are observing the desperate last throes of a so called Union (a more dysfunctional and disparate group, SWP among them, has seldom been seen before) in what has been a monumental 40+ year power struggle between Union & Management.

While their business and first class customers were prepared to pay premium prices, providing 70+% of its operating profits, BA could carry its highly paid cabin crew and didn't have to concern itself dealing with the problem. However, the economic climate has changed and the profligate times are now over.

During the next few days the Union's responses will become increasingly confused and incoherent as the desperation builds and the realisation that the game is over dawns. The intelligent ones among them, like McCluskey, will realise this and jump ship while the less intelligent, including the rank and file members and popular press, will increase their spurious and meaningless disconnected rhetoric and confused sensationalist reporting failing hopelessly to follow the realities of the unfolding situation.

Management will simply hold its course and will defeat and remove all aspects of the old Union control thus finally regaining control of its business.

It's been a fascinating, once in a lifetime, opportunity to watch the whole thing unfold knowing it will become a classic episode in the annals of IR time.

Upon hearing the latest news even the volcano has just shown its support giving BA Management a clear sign it is time to move forwards.

Pure history in the making.

[BEagle]

I read somewhere today that one of the so-called grievances was that cabin crew staffing on long haul had been reduced from 15 to 14....

Hang on a minute. The EASA-OPS requirement is 'one per 50 passengers or fraction thereof'. Just how many 700 seat aircraft do ba operate?

Other carriers have far fewer cabin staff, all of whom receive far less pay than ba cabin staff. So it would surely be in the best interests of ba cabin crew to STFU, tell BASSA to **** off and get back to work.

I had to change flights last week after a Lufthansa flight to FRA went U/S. All later Lufthansa C-class seats from FRA back to the UK were fully booked - according to the ticket folk they've been seeing a significant upswing ever since these stupid union idiots at ba started killing off the goose that lays their golden eggs.... Fortunately I was able to get a taxi (which Lufthansa paid for) to MUC and fly home later that night.

ba - please listen. People are deserting you in droves simply because your service is becoming so unreliable. No fault of 't management, everything to do with these flint-voiced northern communists of the 1970s who are intent on wrecking the airline.

Time to give BASSA the kicking it undoubtedly deserves! Good luck, Willy!

[interpreter]

Call100. The amount of messaging going on is exactly in proprtion to the disgust felt by most normal passengers to the absurdity of the BASSA point of view. The BBC - bless them - is filled with pinkies and lefties who could not take a balanced view on anything to do with business and working practices. They, themselves, are part of the gravy train funded by you and me with ridiculously high salaries paid to people of indifferent skills and leaning like a drunken union man to the left. No chance of a balanced view there. The election coverage was just as left leaning and they are all terrified of being the next target for large savings and staff cuts.

In due course the customer will win and most of the strikers will have to look for another job. This is 2010 not 1970! Hey ho, the BBC next - that sounds good.

[etrang]

Does the existence of such a new ballot process mean Mr. Walsh and BA cannot do ANYTHING in the interim legally? Is it a sort of a legal hamstring that BASSA/Unite can put on BA on June 12th (even if they have no intenton of striking).

Is BA legally blocked from taking any actions toward staff whilst they are in the process of balloting?

The answer to all your questions is, NO.

[ChicoG]

are you referring to older Cabin Crew who have been flying for a good number of years and have a lot of essential experience under their belts?

Who can be replaced in a heart beat by unemployed cabin crew from bankrupt airlines, who have the same experience and qualifications, and would be willing to do the job significantly cheaper than a BASSA CSD?

Yes, I think that's them.

And just about everyone I know thinks that if they're striking, they should be flying out of the BA door with a foot up their arses.

[Mariner9]

Yes Baggers, it is (though BA will have to pay basic salary on the non-strike days). That's exactly what BA did last time. The loss of allowances over that period will mean the strikers will lose quite a lot of cash, poor dears :E.

Besides financially penalising the strikers, it will also make flight scheduling far easier for BA once they have derostered all of the strikers and have some degree of certainty over how many staff will be available. Therefore, BA should be able to increase the flight schedule as the strike progresses.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

A trolley-dolly interviewed on TV said she earned £12,000 salary and received no pay for sick leave or normal leave. Sorry, baby, I just do not believe you.

[ChicoG]

A trolley-dolly interviewed on TV said she earned £12,000 salary and received no pay for sick leave or normal leave. Sorry, baby, I just do not believe you.

And she can afford to go on strike, can she?

:rolleyes:

Out of interest the share price rose this morning, so the city is obviously happy. But the International Business Times website appears to know something we don't:

Trade union Unite has called the actions of the airline "vindictive", however the cabin crew workers are also striking over wages, job cuts and working conditions.

More shoddy journalism.

[F33A]

I just wanted to check the amount of BA flights, that are actually operating today, and noticed, that the Heathrow Airport website doesn't list the previously cancelled flights, I only found 2 or 3 cancelled BA flights at all.

Completely erasing flights from the schedule seems a little odd to me, for example: BA965 HAM-LHR is "cancelled" at the HAM website, but not even listed on the LHR website.

Maybe someone with real insight could provide some facts at the end of the day?

And how does BA crew planning know, if someone will appear at work or be on strike? Have there been confirmed flights, that didn't leave anyway?

[PaddyMiguel]

Chico G said:

Who can be replaced in a heart beat by unemployed cabin crew from bankrupt airlines, who have the same experience and qualifications, and would be willing to do the job significantly cheaper than a BASSA CSD?


Agreed Chico

Experience is what you get after making a mistake. Repeating everything that you learned in your first year of flying 25 times doesn't amount to 25 years of experience, IMHO. Ask an old 'Wake me over Windsor' what he/she has learned in the last year and see what response you get.

The young, enthusiastic cabin crew that I have recruited, trained, flown with and managed both in the US and Middle East as well as in the UK would knock spots off the tired old smokes/biddies waving their banners at Bedfont Football Club this morning........

C'mon down you unemployed crew, the water's lovely and the atmosphere on board is fantastic now that BASSA have self-destructed. There's room for everyone!

[oggers]

For those of foreign location it is worth pointing out that the above scenario is not legal for an employee in Britain. And therefore a complete load of tosh. Anyway it doesn't exactly dovetail with a quote from Bedfont today:

We want to keep BA as a premium airline. We're Middle England - we're Marks and Spencer, we're Waitrose. We don't want this to be a race to the bottom.

...but then again this whole strike has been nothing if not inconsistent.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

The lady reporter on the BBC News said she had spoken to some of the strikers who said they "really needed their travel perks".

I truly wonder what planet these people live on?

[oggers]

Interesting. When Willie Walsh first said he'd remove the travel perks, the message from the strike camp was that a) he couldn't or wouldn't and b) they weren't much good anyway as you could get a firm seat for less with the low cost carriers.

Now it's the main thing stopping them from accepting what is basically the same deal they went on strike over in the first place. :ugh:

[slf22]

I truly wonder what planet these people live on?
Planet BASSA

In other news: BA cabin crew strike - live updates | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/blog/2010/may/24/ba-strike)


12.41pm:
Woodley and Simpson have changed their plans. They were due to address the strike rally (http://twitter.com/UniteBAupdates/statuses/14614104225), but not anymore according to Dan Milmo who is at the strike HQ at Bedfont football club.
Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson, the unite joint general secretaries, will not be attending the strike HQ at bedfont today, which has not drawn the attendance levels of the weekend March strikes. The weather and the fact it is Monday account for this, union officials say.
The 15 days of strikes will be a fundamental test of support for the strike, because it is expected to give every one of unite's 11,000 cabin crew members the opportunity to walk out. Or, crucially, to carry on working. Union officials say they will be able to gauge support for the first wave of strikes by Friday.
"These strikes will determine whether people are willing to carry on with this dispute," said one official."

[PAXboy]

"These strikes will determine whether people are willing to carry on with this dispute," said one official."They have just written their get out line. I suggest that their prose might be purple ...

Our members have decided to go back to work and not pursue their legitimate claim. Whilst we fervently believe that the claim is valid and appropriate, our job is to support our members so - if they have decided to not continue with the action, then we shall support them all the way.
:yuk:

[BetterByBoat]

"Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson, the unite joint general secretaries, will not be attending the strike HQ at bedfont today, which has not drawn the attendance levels of the weekend March strikes. The weather and the fact it is Monday account for this, union officials say."

The weather is too nice for strikers to go to Bedfont ..... one of the most bizarre reasons for a lack of support for a strike that I think I've ever heard.

I just hope for the sake of the professional Cabin Crew who are considering their next move that they realise that BASSA have got this horribly wrong. They can't even fill a bus of supporters. Flights are going as planned. Support amongst passengers, work colleagues and even the press is fading rapidly. The union is even starting to turn on itself following the events of Saturday .... it is time to wake up to reality and, no matter how hard it might be, to accept that while you are now worse off than six months ago and have a worse deal on the table, the options are to either lose more money (and possibly at a later stage your job) or accept what is available now. It is extremely sad that so many professional and no doubt loyal BA cabin crew have ended up fighting not for their own jobs \ benefits but for the ego of the BASSA and Unite union leaders. Leaders who will still have comfy jobs at the end of this dispute.

It is now just a matter of how much striking cabin crew want to continue to lose as the strike crumbles.

[Snas]

“Too hot to strike”

Can these be the same people that made me watch their “something inside so strong” video where they compared themselves to the likes of Nelson Mandella, or indeed I believe that it’s rather warm in Iwo Jima – these tough BASSA people buckle because it’s a sunny day..!

[SpringHeeledJack]

Interesting. When Willie Walsh first said he'd remove the travel perks, the message from the strike camp was that a) he couldn't or wouldn't and b) they weren't much good anyway as you could get a firm seat for less with the low cost carriers.

I was listening to Simon Calder's travel programme yesterday on the radio and there were a good few cabin crew phoning in to put their side of the story across, as is their right, and the subject of staff travel came up and complaints of too many family members using seats on certain flights was mentioned. It was suggested that staff travel was a privilege that has been abused, and this was met with the reply that staff travel is a profit generating department of BA as a whole. Would those in the know please enlighten me how this might be so ?



SHJ

[Diplome]

At this point I think its time that the PCCC to make a move and step out into the public eye.

At some point you have to declare yourself a leader if you wish to lead.

If they are perceived as a fledging organization that will only step out when its absolutely safe they will have difficulties in recruiting, and rightfully so.

While I understand their delay now would not be a bad time to say "This is who we are and we are willing to talk". It would be good for not only the PCCC and fellow crewmembers but would also be a positive for BA.

[Snas]

staff travel is a profit generating department of BA as a whole. Would those in the know please enlighten me how this might be so ?

I'm wondering if Hot Line tickets are being included in that statement perhaps, it would make sense then, ST on its own I'm not so sure that would be correct.

[PAXboy]

SpringHeeledJack... met with the reply that staff travel is a profit generating department of BA as a whole. Would those in the know please enlighten me how this might be so ?I hate to tell you that this was discussed in detail earlier in this thread.Only 1,800 posts to check. :uhoh:

[fly12345]

They have offered to return staff travel to cabin crew who lost it by taking part in the previous strikes, once the deal has been implemented in full. By the way, although people pay a booking fee, staff travel costs the company money as we not only pay for the incidental costs associated with travel we also pick up the tax liabilities as the perk is regarded by the Inland Revenue as taxable.

[ChicoG]

Walsh hits the nail on the head again:

Asked if his own position might be at risk because of the long-running dispute and its effect on morale among BA's 38,000 staff, Walsh said: "It is absolute nonsense. I am doing what previous chief executives should have done and I am doing that with great determination and fantastic support from BA staff."

Amen to that!

[Airclues]

Would those in the know please enlighten me how this might be so ?


There are two types of Staff Travel. Staff, and their families (kids up to age 24) or nominated travel partner can obtain standby tickes at staff fares (ID90). Depending on length of service they can also travel for free (ID100) either once or twice a year.
Staff can also buy 'Hotline' tickets for friends and family (no age or relationship restrictions). Hotline fares are firm commercial tickets sold at discounted prices. BA makes money on Hotline fares as the amount of discount relates to the booked load on that flight and the possibility of selling the seats elsewhere.

The ability to book Hotline fares has not been removed from the strikers.

[Oneye]

Ladies and gentlemen, I am in no way connected with aviation, whether operator or client.
I have observed these threads from the very beginning, both here and on the cabincrew forum, but finally, have become so inscenced(sp) with the 'one cell' diatribes and utter foolishness that I have read/witnessed, that I finally need to ask one or two fundamental questions.
The catalyst for this was listenning to 'linda', lower case on purpose, on the 'fascinating' Vine programme on radio 2 this day.
Setting aside the BBC left bias, this woman declared that she had to disguise here identity, by using a false name. She is a BASSA member and a strike advocate and was bleating about bullying and intimidation, which left me momenterily speechless, unusual for me. To date, I have not heard one syllable from the non strikers, defending their position.
My points/ questions are as follows and I would really appreciate some sensible answers from both sides of the arguement.
Why has it not yet been made plain/obvious, the reasons behind the progenitor for this strike in the media? To wit, the imposition of the reduction of ONE crew member on a flight, remembering that Bassa have refused to negotiate for around 18 months.
Why is it that the media has not actually put the facts straight, that the bullying and intimadation has originated from militant Bassa members?
I guess that will do for now, but my opinion currently is, that it is high time that the PCCC came out of the woodwork and laid claim to the high ground and provided the media with some hard 'accurate' facts about the Bassa CSD's.
Thank you for your time and consideration.

James.

[Roccoreid]

Does ST tickets cover the taxes the rest of the travelling public pay? I ask because I have seen figures banded around that do not make sense if you put the various taxes on top of them.

Anyone know?

Cheers

[Mariner9]

James, its an enduring puzzle to most long time contributors to this thread why the media cannot see through BASSA's lies.

[ChicoG]

James, its an enduring puzzle to most long time contributors to this thread why the media cannot see through BASSA's lies.

Perhaps journalists don't want eye drops in their coffee as well?

[77]

The staff member pays the taxes, the ticket part is discounted price.
EG
LON-PAR Adult 1 Fare £14.00 Tax £33.97 Total £47.97
Select the currency you wish to be billed in: GBP USD Total (GBP) 47.97

[Oneye]

ChicoG, I can assure you sir, that I am not a journalist looking for dirt/anything. I am retired, having spent most of my life in the Royal Air Force and thence BAE Systems. I am just somewhat perplexed that BOTH sides of the arguement have not had equal media time. For myself, my support is firmly with the 'quality' cabincrew NOT striking.

[PaddyMiguel]

Does ST tickets cover the taxes the rest of the travelling public pay? I ask because I have seen figures banded around that do not make sense if you put the various taxes on top of them.

Anyone know?

Cheers

Rocco, even when I fly on my 'free' ticket which I get once a year as a long-serving but retired employee, I have to pay taxes. My trip to South America cost me over £200 even though the ticket was 'free'. ID90 (nominally 90% discounted) tickets have to pay the same taxes as SLF pay.

[ChicoG]

ChicoG, I can assure you sir, that I am not a journalist looking for dirt/anything.

I meant no such implication Oneye. It was merely an observation. If you wanted to fly BA, it probably wouldn't get you a rousing reception on board if you were known to be critical of the howling banshees of BASSA. They are a vindictive bunch.

[Airclues]

Oneye

The problem is that under the BA Disciplinary procedures agreed with the unions, the company cannot comment until the entire process (including appeals etc) has been exhausted. WW is sticking to his side of the deal.

Some of the alleged 'crimes' would warrant a prison sentence if proved in a court of law. They have been published elsewhere on this site and I don't intend to repeat them.

Anyone who has been sacked has recourse to an Industrial Tribunal, where all of the facts can be made public. Will be interesting to see how the media reports that!

[Oneye]

ChicoG, that is precisely my point, how is it that these underachievers have, what appears to be, the general publics sympathy. Hmm, by that I mean the prolitariat that take everything that is fed them, in tablets of stone. Examples being, X Factor, Britains got (no) talent et al.
I am truly saddened by what I am witnessing, a once shining light national carrier, reduced to what we witness day by day, with no light at the end of the tunnel. This country is self destructing, thanks to the whims of intellectually challenged no hopers. Time we all woke up to the reality.

James

[Roccoreid]

Many thanks for the replies.

Obviously it shows how much extra tickets cost for taxes which is a completely different rant for another time :)

[Oneye]

Airclues, indeed it will be interesting to see how it is reported. It has long been a distinct dislike of mine, to have lies reported as spin. There is no distinction as far as I am concencerned. From what I have read so far, those individuals under disciplinaries, have a case to answer. Once again it appears there is a distinction made between the threats and overt intimidation perpetrated by BASSA militants, whereby BASSA have impunity, but, don't dare to challenge them and anyone else. Having said that, I cannot recollect having witnessed any of the above from the non strikers, I stand to be corrected of course.

James.

[77]

Obviously it shows how much extra tickets cost for taxes which is a completely different rant for another time

Well this could become a real rant.
Bought some tickets for my Daughter, Son in Law and Granddaughter in Feb.
MAN-LGW-MCO-LGW-MAN with BA. Cheaper than Virgin MAN direct MCO.
Total £1175. The fare for the three was £400. The rest tax and surcharges.
AND the APD is set to ise to fund MR.Cleggs shopping list according to the press.

[Diplome]

77:

I don't mean to doubt you, but are you sure? My goodness, that is simply outrageous.

[ExecClubPax]

Yes it's Cleggs ambition to do to the British Aviation industry what Jack Straw did for the London dockers. Even if BASSA don't cause BA's demise, the Lib-Dem faction of the colition want to stop all flying to and from this country by taxing it out of existence. But of course, being a millionaire, no doubt he has access to private jets etc. Just another example of left winger's poicy "Don't do as I do, do as I say".

[Oneye]

Well, I asked the questions, got little or no response. I am not permitted to respond on the cabincrew forum, just about says it all ladies and gentlemen, total disinterest other than personal agendas. If that is the way of things, then gawd help all the parties involved. Are you all SO afraid to stand up and be counted. Don't misinterpret what you have just read, I am no union plant, but am guilty of being able to think for myself and voice an opinion. Were it within my remit, I would have already exposed the degenerates that are dragging this company down. So sad to witness the demise of a once wonderful company, due to the intransigence of those unable to think for themselves, but weilding the power, thanks to fear of consequence of those under the heel of diversity,inclusiveness, political correctness, discrimination, et al.
I shall trouble you good people no further.

James.

[77]

Diplome

It was in the press in the last few days. APD to rise (double ?? ) to fund Lib-Dem pledge to raise income tax threshold to £10,000.
For the few who will pay no tax, many more will not be able to travel by air on holiday and hence many in the aviation industry will lose their jobs.
You can of course travel by AMS,CDG, FRA etc and pay less tax but that doesn't help those employed in the aviation industry in the UK. i.e. those trying to keep their airline in business not destroy it.

[Diplome]

Oneye:

Forgive me as I pop in and out while getting ready for dinner guests.

I was not quite aware that I was under a duty to respond to your post within a given time. Your assumptions based upon my world not stopping to tend to your immediate needs says much.

Kind Regards

[Oneye]

Unreserved apologies sir, it is not my intentiuon to offend you or any others on this forum. Forgive my impatience, it is not intended.

James

[Diplome]

Oneye:

I apologize for being curt but the questions you posed would take some time to respond to.

I've asked questions here from time to time, or requested a link, and have been absolutely grateful when I've received a response, even if its a day or two later.

...and its Ms. :)

[Oneye]

I note your gender and acknowledge your reply. I shall stop digging this hole now and wish you well. Perhaps you will see your way, in the fullness of time, to add/ respond to my comments. I do so hope that your dinner guests enjoy their encounter as much as I just have.

James.

[fincastle84]

Now that the previous little spat is over & Oneye & Diplome are now life long friends, back to the real story. (Only joking) :ok:

It looks as though even Sky & the Bassa Broadcasting Corperation are losing interest in the morons outside Bedfont FC. At the same time BA are rapidly reinstating a large number of previously cancelled flights. The latest (1600 hrs) update on the BA website is most encouraging.

It seems that we are really entering the end game & BA is on the way to a successful recovery to being a world beater. On the downside I'll miss all the friends I've made on this forum when it closes, it's been most illuminating.

[Oneye]

Thanks very much for the humour inject, appreciated. However, I do not believe for an instant that BA are on the home straight to victory over these underachievers, there are yet a few more twists that this can take, given the peurile mentality of the average Bassa member. Commonsense is not a word recognised within the confines of the 'wrank'(Spelling is correct) and file of the membership of Bassa. Seems to me an indication of how standards within BA have been forced to fall. Gawd forbid that I ever have to be 'served' by one of those surly gargoyles. Upon reflection, I have first hand experience of this, dating not too long ago on a flight ex Jeddah, very close to christmas. No service was available because the 'painted faces' were too busy partyng in the rear galley of the 777 with a 'chosen' few. Ring any bells with anyone I wonder?

[Oneye]

I wonder, have our paths crossed in the north of scotland per chance.I worked with SINTO/SEWO around that time.

[interpreter]

Joking apart, Oneye has the situation well summed up but he did say several messages ago that he was off! Tempted back eh? Nothing like a good chance to air ones grievances at a mob of dsireputable CC in a great airline. This has to be the time for WW to clear out all the dross and restore BA's once proud and deserved reputation.
Oh by the way, Oneye ex Bomber Command here - heavens that dates me!

[Oneye]

No greivances to air buddy, just 'observations' of what seems to have been lost in the morass of knee jerk reactions. The important players appear to have lost sight of the fundamentals here, whether through vested interests or just because they are intellectually challenged. Interesting times, just my 'interpretation' of what has gone before, no axe to grind.

James.

[fincastle84]

How did someone from Bomber Command become involved in a kipper fleet conversation?

I'll PM you re my whereabouts in '84, apart from Edinburgh Field!!!!!!!

[vanHorck]

There is no more place for militancy of the "old kind" in modern society.

A cohabitation between Conservatives and Liberals is enough proof of that.

On the CC thread there is already talk about sneer remarks by a CC who was on strike last time but decided to work this time to a VCC: "Don't give up your day job".....

It explains why WW needs to get rid of the militancy.

During the last strike the cc who were working were commenting on the much improved working atmosphere, the camaraderie on the flights, and that's exactly what BA needs in the long run.

The only ones who are damaging this camaraderie are the militants. Like vermin they have no more place in what is still a great airline.

So i hope the secondary aim of WW (after achieving the much needed cost savings which Bassa flatly refused to negotiate for a year) is to improve the camaraderie of the cc by sacking those militants where he can and not give in.

... one iota

[BR944]

BA Staff tickets do include the vast majority of taxes applicable to a commercial ticket - but they do not incur the 'fuel surcharges'.

[Entaxei]

There have been a few calls in the past few days from new posters, typically <3 posts trolls, demanding that the PCCC either state how many members they have and/or submit their identities for general information.

Given that the union bullyboys are running out of targets to threaten, and taking into account the antics they have got up to so far, I would think that the worst thing that the PCCC can do at this precise moment in time, is to accede to these requests/demands. Especially as they appear to be normal working staff, you can imagine the situation developing on a LH, where they are mixed with striking/militant staff.

I would suggest that the details are kept under wraps for now, until BASSA has lost its ability to represent BA staff, the disciplinaries have been finished, the strikers and militants have been sacked, at least by then most of the above will be too busy worrying about receiving some income, rather than causing ongoing trouble, and of course have lost their airside I/D's - hopefully none of the above are that far distant.

Diplome - Just to clear the yard arm - none of the above is in response to your post! I would'nt dare!! ;)

[LD12986]

Judging by the numbers reporting for duty, this strike could well fizzle out over the next few days. With today's public sector cuts announcements, the Unite leadership also now have bigger fish to fry.

If this doesn't end with some form of face-saving get out for BASSA, I wonder if things will turn ugly when the militants realise the game is up.

[Phil Rigg]

Woodley's & Simpson's failure to meet and address their loyal striking staff at Bedfont at their planned 14:00 hrs slot this afternoon was them essentially throwing in the towel.

Interesting that in the end the two Unite Co-General Secretaries and the BASSA leaders including their Branch Secretary Holley, et.al., ended-up self-combusting by blaming and fighting each other.

We now see how the end game including the capitulation by the loosers and clean-up by the victors gets to play out.

[Entaxei]

I would suggest that it has been constant 'face saving' for both BASSA and BA managment for the last 30 years, that has bought about the situation today whereby a union runs a major airline and controls approx 30,000 staff - Now for once there is a CEO who has the cojones to stand up and say - Enough - No More.

If the spoilt brat screams - let it scream - don't reward it with sweets and start the cycle all over again - throw it away with the bathwater!!

[LD12986]

Union has been destroyed by British Airways, admits top official - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article7135454.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797084)


Willie Walsh, the chief executive of British Airways, has broken his cabin crew union and will win the dispute, a prominent official conceded yesterday as stewards began a 15-day strike over jobs and working conditions.

The comments, from a member of the nine-strong leadership of the British Airlines Stewards and Stewardesses Association (BASSA), came as tensions mounted over the handling of the dispute by the cabin crew section’s parent union, Unite.

Tony Woodley was, according to sources close to the leadership, livid with his co-general secretary, Derek Simpson, for posting details of failed negotiations with the BA boss on his Twitter account.

[slf22]

Union managers have undermined cabin crew and boosted BA&rsquo;s hand - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article7135550.ece)

It was supposed to have been a winter of discontent. What we have is a summer of discomfort for British Airways passengers as the one rumbling dispute of the past six months explodes into a head-on clash that threatens to define industrial relations in the first weeks of the post-Labour economy.

What is at issue at BA is no longer about cuts in cabin crew to enable the airline to withstand two years of losses of more than £900 million. It is not even about individual travel perks. Nor is it about breaking the union. It is about breaking the management of Bassa, the sub-branch of the union at the heart of the dispute, representing 10,000 stewards and stewardesses.

Bassa’s leadership has forced Tony Woodley, the general secretary of Unite, the parent union, into a negotiating stance that he is struggling to justify. That is a weakness at the head of a super-union whose shortcomings are magnified by having two ageing general secretaries close to retirement. And that weakness is Willie Walsh’s strongest hand and one that has led a previously uncertain BA chief executive into a hardline stance of no surrender.

[TrakBall]

New BASSA battle hymn - think US Marines

From the Hatton Cross roundabout, to the fields of Bedfont FC, we will fight our IA battles (except if it's too hot, the weather is too good or it's a Monday)

Kind of get's you right here...

TB

[PAXboy]

EntaxeiNow for once there is a CEO who has the cojones to stand up and say - Enough - No More.Only because the Board of Management have backed him to do it. Indeed, it appears that they hired him specifically to do it. He could not have done this alone. If earlier Boards had not wanted a quiet life, then it would have happened earlier. Just as it did to Stevedores, Print Workers and the rest, the world had changed in their favour and then it changed again.

77It was in the press in the last few days. APD to rise (double ?? )
[SNIP]
For the few who will pay no tax, many more will not be able to travel by air on holiday and hence many in the aviation industry will lose their jobs.

You can of course travel by AMS,CDG, FRA etc and pay less tax but that doesn't help those employed in the aviation industry in the UK. i.e. those trying to keep their airline in business not destroy it.You make it sound like the death knell of the entire UK aviation fleet rests on the doubling of APD? The global airline biz has increased because:
Deregulation of old duopoly agreements
new entrants lowered prices
new aircraft cheaper to operate
new runways on small islands and unexpected places
new ways of pricing and making money out of air travel - both by the carriers and the airport companiesThe expansion was to the point were, a couple of years ago, many said that air travel was now too cheap to make any real profit.

Then, just when we thought it was going to get better and better ... the recesssion arrived and everything changed. We may yet have a Depression or Stagflation.

If people do not have a job, or have lost their house, or are stuggling to support their family then APD is going to be the leat of their worries. YES, I do realise what it might mean to a family of four on a lh holiday but, just maybe, folks will plan now in the way in which they did not in the last 20 years.

[ChicoG]

They just had Duncan Thicket on Sky, throwing out his usual insults at Walsh.

Yeah, well he's got a job at BA and you haven't, you moron.

:E

[Ainippe]

Unfortunately this has now ended up as a band of militants trying to hold up everyone to ransom. they need to get in the real world and smell the coffee -- trouble is they are dragging innocent people with them! I feel sorry for the people who are following this lost cause and the effects upon them, see the light you sheep and divorce yourselves from these fools.:ok:

[RTR]

Yeah, well he's got a job at BA and you haven't, you moron.

Actually, you are wrong. Holley is no longer employed by BA, he was sacked and his use of office facilities for union work were removed by BA.

He is behaving as 'secretary' of BASSA and still 'leading' from the front but as he is not now one of them - it is all false. In other words he CANNOT speak for them. Mind you BASSA has not negotiated or met BA for over a year! Now that is quite something.

However, he is reported as saying in The Times, that it is all over, "the union is broken."

Now, perhaps things can get back to where BA should be.

[dubh12000]

I see that the BBC have picked up on that blatant lie that the Pilots would be angry if the ST was returned......they did however also print the statement from BALPA denying this. Strange.

[Diplome]

Entaxei:

I certainly understand and appreciate your comments regarding the PCCC and I'm fully aware that it is very easy for individuals to say "Its time to come out" when we're sitting safely in front of our computer screen and not exposed to the likes of people like Mr. Holley, who will endorse the use of "guerilla tactics" and fools such as those that disrupted the negotiations.

However, it is obvious that BASSA is weakened and having a reasonable and professional group for disillusioned Cabin Crew to look for leadership and change would be a positive and could possibly provide significant momentum for the PCCC.

A shame that we have to take into consideration individuals safety from the same groups who speak of "bullies".

[G-BPED]

Actually, you are wrong. Holley is no longer employed by BA, he was sacked and his use of office facilities for union work were removed by BA.

He is behaving as 'secretary' of BASSA and still 'leading' from the front but as he is not now one of them - it is all false. In other words he CANNOT speak for them. Mind you BASSA has not negotiated or met BA for over a year! Now that is quite something.

However, he is reported as saying in The Times, that it is all over, "the union is broken."

Now, perhaps things can get back to where BA should be.

RTR. I believe that what ChicoG was referring to by his comment was the fact that Walsh was the person who had the job at BA.

Regards,

G-BPED

[ChicoG]

RTR. I believe that what ChicoG was referring to by his comment was the fact that Walsh was the person who had the job at BA.

You believe correctly :ok:

And let's all remember Duncan H. was fired because he was told to turn up to work and chose to bunk off. Hmmm. I'll tell my boss I'm not coming in tomorrow and that he should still pay me. See how that one goes :}

Added:

Even more hilariously, our Duncan doesn't like Willie, and wants him to step out of the negotiations.

Oh dear Duncan, you really are rather stupid, aren't you?

Both sources within Unite and senior figures within its hardline branch that specifically represents BA’s 12,000 cabin crew, have pinpointed Mr Williams as a far more emollient figure than Mr Walsh. They believe the dispute - which has increasingly centred on the personalities of the senior figures involved - could be brought to a swift halt if he were allowed to lead negotiations, rather than Mr Walsh.

"Without Walsh a deal would be much easier to pick up because of the trust involved," said Duncan Holley branch secretary of British Airlines Stewards and Stewardesses Association (Bassa), which represents the airline’s cabin crew.

"Keith Williams is well respected and there is a feeling within the community that we could forge a much better relationship with him. If Keith came to use with a deal, we would be much more likely to accept it."

I think what you mean is that Willie won't roll over like the rest of them.

Get over it you sad git.

And a bit of Unite spin:

The cabin crew branch of Unite, Bassa, said there was a different atmosphere among strikers compared with the last series of walkouts in March.

"The atmosphere is not as frenetic and intense as last time. People seem to be more determined and they have a quiet resolve," said one official.

Methinks that is a euphemism for "they know they are beaten".

(Note: Unite is also holding its annual conference next week, in Manchester. )

Edit: RicoG, can you please refrain from calling people morons and gits? Its not nice and against the rules.

[oggers]

And England would lift the World Cup if they were just allowed to choose who they played against. :rolleyes:

[PaddyMiguel]

Actually, you are wrong. Holley is no longer employed by BA, he was sacked and his use of office facilities for union work were removed by BA.

He is behaving as 'secretary' of BASSA and still 'leading' from the front but as he is not now one of them - it is all false. In other words he CANNOT speak for them. Mind you BASSA has not negotiated or met BA for over a year! Now that is quite something.

However, he is reported as saying in The Times, that it is all over, "the union is broken."

Now, perhaps things can get back to where BA should be.

Perhaps it's his bank account that's broken

From the Times Online

mark jones wrote:
As a long serving worker with BA, please dont think many of us are like Bassa's general secretary Duncan Holley. We all known this individual for too long, and he has looked after himself big time. Apart from a basic salary from BA ( until 2 weeks ago!) of 42000, he has taken between 12-15k for 'office duties' ( As he flies just 4-5 times/year.) But the really big earner that the crew DONT know about is that he is entitled and still takes 3% of their monthly contibutions into his back pocket. 12000members x £16.50/month = 6k/month for him alone. Oh yes he earns in total more than most longhaul captains!! He has never divulged this to any of the members. Wonder why? Another union rep playing poor me when the oppisite is true. He has caused a lot of problems for too long. Good riddunce
May 25, 2010 9:49 AM BST


source http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article7135454.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797084 (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article7135454.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797084)

[RTR]

RicoG,

Oops! My apologies. :O

[Diplome]

Oneye:

As per your request.

Ladies and gentlemen, I am in no way connected with aviation, whether operator or client.
I have observed these threads from the very beginning, both here and on the cabincrew forum, but finally, have become so inscenced(sp) with the 'one cell' diatribes and utter foolishness that I have read/witnessed, that I finally need to ask one or two fundamental questions.
The catalyst for this was listenning to 'linda', lower case on purpose, on the 'fascinating' Vine programme on radio 2 this day.
Setting aside the BBC left bias, this woman declared that she had to disguise here identity, by using a false name. She is a BASSA member and a strike advocate and was bleating about bullying and intimidation, which left me momenterily speechless, unusual for me. To date, I have not heard one syllable from the non strikers, defending their position.

There have been a few non-strikers who have appeared in interviews and on different call-in programs. Unfortunately they have no organized way to speak for themselves and I agree, it does make for a frustrating situation when you realize that the militant strikers are the minority.

Non-strikers should have a greater voice.

My points/ questions are as follows and I would really appreciate some sensible answers from both sides of the arguement.
Why has it not yet been made plain/obvious, the reasons behind the progenitor for this strike in the media? To wit, the imposition of the reduction of ONE crew member on a flight, remembering that Bassa have refused to negotiate for around 18 months.
Why is it that the media has not actually put the facts straight, that the bullying and intimadation has originated from militant Bassa members?
I guess that will do for now, but my opinion currently is, that it is high time that the PCCC came out of the woodwork and laid claim to the high ground and provided the media with some hard 'accurate' facts about the Bassa CSD's.

I have stated previously that perhaps it is time for the PCCC to step forward. Other posters have put forth some very reasonable reasons why they disagree with my proposal.

Whether PCCC decide now is the time or not I believe that BA could do a better job of getting the message out that they are supported by the VAST majority of their workers, including Cabin Crew.

BA Cabin Crew is certainly more than the individuals that we see screaming outside of hotels, wearing mens undergarments with Mr. Walsh's image on the seat or having their children hold signs with Mr. Walsh's eyes painted red. It would be good for BA and those individuals who are keeping the flag flying if there was a positive brand being seen by the public.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

You're welcome. :)

[PaddyMiguel]

Oneye said

Setting aside the BBC left bias, this woman declared that she had to disguise here identity, by using a false name. She is a BASSA member and a strike advocate and was bleating about bullying and intimidation, which left me momenterily speechless, unusual for me. To date, I have not heard one syllable from the non strikers, defending their position.



I believe that ALL BA employees are prevented from speaking to the media without consent from the Press Office, hence the need for anonymity.

As for the silence from non-strikers I'm pretty sure that some (albeit anonymous) PCCC people have been interviewed on the BBC - and vilified afterwards as management stooges by BASSA.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

[PAXboy]

Unite's Brian Boyd to the BBC reporter at Hatton Cross this morning, saying strike support is strong: "The staff car park is EMPTY. We have film we can show you later if you'd like. Yes, it is empty."Perhaps the staff that are working have more sense than to use the staff car park, where their number plates can be recorded for later ...

If it was me, I'd be on a bus or tube in civvies.

[wiggy]

The staff car park is EMPTY. We have film we can show you later if you'd like. Yes, it is empty."

So lets get this right, Brian Boyd is claiming that the Staff Car Park, i.e. the one which is used not just by the Cabin Crew, but also by all of BA's LHR pilots and some of the Waterside staff is empty, deserted, completely devoid of vehicles....... and he just happens to have film of this amazing spectacle? :ugh::ugh:

I wonder which Car Park he has got film of - Tesco in Hayes in the early hours of Sunday AM????

[TRX75]

Could it be the Bedfont FC car park? :E

The latest view of the dispute posted on the CC forum. Not the official BASSA view - just that of a striker (and most probably a commuter) desperately trying to justify his/her continuing strike action. Anyone else noticed that the BASSA side have now gone very quiet about all those 'vindictive' disciplinary actions?

I thought TW offered to call off the strike if WW would re-instate the [seniority] aspect of Staff Travel.WW declined that offer so BA still has a strike on its hands.According to Richard Branson,J customers are flocking to Virgin in their droves.According to the media hundreds of BA flights are cancelled again today.BA will lose millions today and I guess tomorrow etc etc.This is about one mans ego,no more.Customers are now the victims in this crusade which is all about appeasing the non-strikers and the CEO.Crazy!!It's getting harder to see any resolution of this dispute which does not include the removal of all the strikers from the Cabin Crew complement and the total elimination of BASSA. I'm sure Mr Walsh will not back down now and will listen to his customers. I'm one of those who won't fly BA again after the strike if there's the slightest chance I'll have to endure the attention of those who don't want to be there on board. I pay for all my flights out of my own pocket and regard my flight as the start of my holiday.

[Oneye]

Many thanks for your considered response and I do understand the points you profer. However, given that the non-strikers are the obvious majority, my question is, why have they no voice? I understand fully PAXboy's point and thank you for that PAXboy, having been constrained myself by my employer, not to speak to the media, without company permission, which I understand to the full. It seems to me that 'someone', PCCC perhaps, now have enough support/clout to approach the company in order to enable a redress of the balance and consequently debunk the BASSA party line, followed by the braincell sharing minority.
Just my thoughts, no offence meant to those who have the power of a little lateral thinking.

James.

[ExecClubPax]

Why do the working cabin crew need a voice? Every Chatham Dockyard livery that lifts off RWY 27 L/R or RWY 09 L/R with the deep roar of a Trent of IAE engine is more eloquent and indisputable than any voice UNITE/BASSA can raise.

[Diplome]

ExClubPax:

True. But there would be no negative in having both heard :)

Looks like no meetings today and interesting that Citi Research recommended BA as a "buy" today.

BA strikes: hopes fade for airline and union talks | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/25/ba-strikes-airline-union-secret-talks)

[Oneye]

Whilst I agree with your point, my arguement is that there should be like for like communication. The prolitariat don't really understand symbolism and we have witnessed examples of that earlier in this thread 'wasting money on paint' comes to mind. Seems to me that in order for the tide to turn away from the 1970's mindset which is driving the poor souls of the BASSA militant tendency, then 'vocabulary' will turn the lights on with these cranially challenged individuals. Wearing undergarments with Mr Walsh's 'adjusted' face applied, will not win them the day.

James.

[Ancient Observer]

Oneye,
I think Diplome has done rather more than she should have done to answer your questions.
Back in this thread are all sorts of bits of info which when put to-gether answer all the questions. As you probably know, the answer is always 42.

On your most recent post, as I've said on this thread before, to understand what is going on, you have to get in to the striker's mind set. As someone else has observed, it is a bit like joining a cult.

The research (I can't remember who did it, but Prof John Purcell of Bath Uni will remember) shows that the mindset changes substantially once the actual strike has started. "The other side" become devils, evil, and need to be stopped at all costs. Rationality goes out of the window - for both sides sometimes.Putting WW's face on your rear-end is perfectly understandable.
Plus, for 20-30 years BA have always backed down, (not just to CC but to check-in staff with 20% absence rates, baggage handlers with or without light fingers, , Pilots and anyone else who could organise themselves to say "Boo!!" loudly to the BA management)............ so what Holley et al are doing is Completely sensible to them.

I'll repeat that in different words..............Holley and co are being perfectly rational from their perspective.

As to the "lies" and "spin" - after 100 years (OK, it only feels like that) of Campbell and Mandelson, what on earth do you expect??
If a Government can produce the dodgy dossier and get away with it, with not a single person fired, surely there is no problem with a modest amount of Bassa lies and spin???.

As to why BA can't spin. Simples. They are a listed Company. I'm not going in to the listing Rules here, but believe me, they can't do it. End of.

[wiggy]

Whilst I'd dearly love to hear one of our "onside" Cabin Crew put the case in/to the media, I don't think it's the best tactic at the moment.

Firstly, seeing as they would have to have management permission to speak they're immediately open to accusations of being a management stooge. Secondly I suspect some News organisations would love the opportunity to carry out the public inquisition of somebody who doesn't support UNITE, so I reckon the chances of him/her getting an uninterrupted, fair hearing would be close to zero. Thirdly the media would no doubt feel they had to give BASSA the right of reply, just giving them more publicity.

Frustrating though it is I think the PR side is being handled quite well by BA. Keep the aircraft flying, post adverts in the newspapers reminding folks we're still in business and that's it. It drives the story off the front page because there's nothing new to report, no arguments to splash over the front page and denies Woodley, Simpson and/or Holley et. al. air time.

[Oneye]

I have no arguement with Diplome's response and defer to your apparent superior abilities in this field. The point I was making, albeit perhaps simplisticly, was that from an outsiders point of view, it seems to me that the 'quality' cabincrew do not appear to have a proper voice in the media. I am not sure at all if you are, or were implying my allegiance to the labour party (spit), but to leave no doubt sir, I am apolitical, which does not mean that I do not use my vote. Demonstrated superiority, whether applicable or not sir, demeans the quality of what is proffered. The words don't necessarilly make the man, sorry, person.

[Oneye]

Succinct, accurate and to the point, I could not agree more, I wish that there were more like you with the ability to cut through the verbosity. I include myself in the verbose element.:ok:

[PAXboy]

OneyeIt seems to me that 'someone', PCCC perhaps, now have enough support/clout to approach the company in order to enable a redress of the balance and consequently debunk the BASSA party line, ...My guess is that they will wait until it is all over and the dust settled somewhat. THEN would be the time to walk in and pick up the pieces. No one would want to be associated with this fight - on either side.

[drew3325]

Two points to ponder - firstly if the staff car park is empty I had better tell my CC friend as it means her car has been nicked whilst she away on a trip!!!

And secondly i wonder if anyone could answer the following:

If DH is no longer an employee of British Airways I wonder how he can still be Branch Secretary of BASSA (British Airways Stewards and Stewardess's Association) - Surely one has to be in the employ of BA to be a member of this union as well as to be able to sign on to the Bassa Website etc. Or do different rules apply here? Not trying to be controversial I just wonder how this can be

any ideas anyone?

[Chuchinchow]

Putting WW's face on your rear-end is perfectly understandable.


"Understandable" - perhaps. Acceptable, according to societal norms - never.

[BetterByBoat]

... BA will appeal against the Court of Appeal decision to allow strike .....

[Snas]

... BA will appeal against the Court of Appeal decision to allow strike .....


Yup, when the other side is on his last legs you keep hitting, as my mum always says..!!

British Airways Strike: Airline To Appeal Court Verdict Which Allowed Unite Union Walkout | Business | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/British-Airways-Strike-Airline-To-Appeal-Court-Verdict-Which-Allowed-Unite-Union-Walkout/Article/201005415638242?f=rss)

[Diplome]

I'm not sure what their chance of success is, but it may be a good move tactically.

You can be sure that BA is not putting all their eggs into this one basket.

[LD12986]

I noted from the Sky News report that BA has demanded documents from Unite. I would have thought that if this was merely an appeal to the Supreme Court in respect of the injunction, they wouldn't need any documents? Perhaps, something new has come to light?

British Airways Strike: Airline To Appeal Court Verdict Which Allowed Unite Union Walkout | Business | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/British-Airways-Strike-Airline-To-Appeal-Court-Verdict-Which-Allowed-Unite-Union-Walkout/Article/201005415638242?lpos=Business_Carousel_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15638242_British_Airways_Strike%3A_Airline_To_Ap peal_Court_Verdict_Which_Allowed_Unite_Union_Walkout)

[SamYeager]

I wonder why BA didn't appeal the ruling earlier? Perhaps their legal team has spotted additional grounds in favour of BA? From a conspiracy angle I suppose it's possible that this is a cunning ploy to deter Unite from calling additional strikes after this week until this is resolved thereby cutting into the available strike days before June 12th.

[LD12986]

I wonder if it's related to various Unite/BASSA representatives mouthing off about this dispute being about staff travel/disciplinaries which obviously weren't the subject of the original ballot?

[Diplome]

LD12986:

As I understand it you cannot bring up new issues on appeal. The appeal must be based upon the same facts and testimony offered in the original case.

The request for documents is interesting and could mean a few things. Is BA looking for a misrepresentation made by Unite/BASSA in the original hearing?

Could be a few things but it certainly shows that Mr. Walsh continues to enjoy the backing of his Board.

[LD12986]

Whatever WW has being doing today, he hasn't had the time to make an appearance in this customer update;

YouTube - A customer update from British Airways - 25 May (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAla6ta6ZkA)

[BAAlltheway]

I just wanted to check the amount of BA flights, that are actually operating today, and noticed, that the Heathrow Airport website doesn't list the previously cancelled flights, I only found 2 or 3 cancelled BA flights at all.

Completely erasing flights from the schedule seems a little odd to me, for example: BA965 HAM-LHR is "cancelled" at the HAM website, but not even listed on the LHR website.

Maybe someone with real insight could provide some facts at the end of the day?


F33A, sorry you didnt get a reply sooner- i've been somewhat occupied "Backing BA" and doing my day job as well for the last few days!

As far as i can say, from my previous role, the flights on the LHR BAA website (like the BAA screens) are taken from those submitted as the intended flying schedule to ACL who manage slots.

Because BA worked up a special new schedule for the strikes, the only flights to appear are those which were submitted, not the full schedule which HAM are obv using. In normal cancellations (i.e weather) the schedule has been submitted, and then flights were cancelled, hence they would appear on BAA info boards, with a cancellation message.

If flights are appearing on the BAA info pages Cancelled during the strike, it probably means that the flight was part of the planned strike schedule but has been cancelled since then. However equally, there are some extra flights appearing, which are being added to the planned strike schedule as more crew report than were planned for.

HTH

BAATW

[LD12986]

According to the latest on the CC thread, the court action seems to be a false alarm by Sky "never wrong for long" News!

[RTR]

A cc member on their thread answered this question the other day. Said Mr. H can remain until the next election, at which time he cannot stand if he is no longer employed by BA. But until then, he can continue in his position.


Interesting this. He cannot represent CC because he has no access to BA. That makes him useless to their cause and it is absurd that he should be fighting BA on behalf of BASSA. They would obviously listen to him and BASSA less now than they did before!

As for possible further action by BA in the courts. It appears, that at the heart of this latest move is that Unite have called a strike based on the removal of ST and disciplinary matters which is NOT the original reason for striking - thus "making this one illegal." One for the eagles.

BA tells Unite to prepare for a court challenge over cabin crew dispute - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article7136489.ece)

[Ruthanne]

I flew out to Phoenix on BA289, travelled business as did five over members of my family, disappointed on the service.....not particularly friendly crew, more or less a could not care less attitude, thats of course when we happened to see them during the flight....unfortunately for me something I ate either on the flight or in the club lounge at terminal five upset me (another story)...on the return flight sat upstairs, two male cabin crew one couldnt do enough for you the other could barely serve you, any questions you had about the service was greeted with no comment, and that actually was anything you asked....will I travel BA again, not so sure....I thought I would never say it but the strike has almost ruined them for me!!!!!! thank you to all the BA staff that are trying their best to keep the airline flying. I hope that the airline can one day return to what It once was!!!

[oggers]

I just can't see the courts declaring this strike illegal on the technicality that was the focus of attention last week. Which makes me wonder what BA have got up their sleeve. We can but speculate. Maybe they just want to keep up the pressure on the union.

It might be a long shot but the stakes couldn't be higher for the strikers. OTOH what do BA have to lose - the strike continues, and they pick up a legal bill that is trivial compared to the sort of losses they've been enduring. It's the sort of punt that a board of directors are prepared to take.

The strike has to be for the reasons balloted. There's been a cannon loose on the media deck - DH - and given his official capacity I wouldn't want MY future livelihood resting on whether or not he'd given away a tinsy-winsy bit too much. :eek:

[Duffus]

Having flown with many airlines on long haul flights over recent years I came to the conclusion that BA were now no better than any other. Perhaps when having to reschedule at short notice BA were better at accomodating my request.
My point being that despite the over inflated opinion BA have of themselves, the Brand BA would not be missed if the company folded.
Those who are striking, for what ever todays reason is, should remember that if I have to get to B I will get there whether your company flies me or not.
To those who are still working and to the VCC good luck and I hope you eventually are able kick out the militants who threaten your jobs.
Maybe when this all over and BA remains viable you can get the company back to what it was 10 years ago, the passengers prefered carrier.

[Tigger4Me]

I saw a UNITE/BASSA video on You Tube showing strikers waving banners stating, "Negotiation NOT imposition." I wonder if these banners were held in the same hands that were raised at Sandown last year voting for no negotiation.

These poor souls are really confused. How on earth can they be relied on in an on board situation requiring clear thought.

On a seperate point and referring to post #1859 showing a breakdown of Mr Holley's salary. I cannot totally agree with the figures for two reasons. First and according to BASSA'a own website, the current membership stands at 9939 as at 11:00 today and not the 12,000 stated in the post. Second where is the evidence that DH receives 3% of the membership dues?

However, assuming the 3% is correct, the salary for last year now becomes £113,037 made up of £42000 from BA, £12,000 for his office duties and a very nice 9939 x £16.50 per month x 3% = £59037 from BASSA's generous members. It is also stated elsewhere that DH only flew for 20 hours last year.

Now, you may recall that BASSA recently calculated the hourly rate of a pilot operating as CC at £166 per hour. So using BASSA mathematical logic does that mean that Mr Holley is on over £5,566 p.h. Nice work if you can get it!

[13Alpha]

So far I've avoided commenting on the BA cabin crew strike. But over on the CC strike thread one of the BASSA supporters MissM posted this regarding the current BA "offer" to UNITE:


I will never accept the proposal as it is today as there are no guarantees regarding my career.


It's hard to know where to start in answering someone who is so utterly divorced from reality as this, but I'll have a go.

Firstly, you would need to consult a much higher power than even the BA CEO to obtain any guarantees about your career. In 20 years in my industry I've been made redundant once, taken voluntary redundancy once, had one employer taken over and spent some time unemployed. And that is by no means unusual amongst my peers. This is the nature of business in 2010.

Even in the aviation industry, you should ask employees of Pan Am or Sabena or Swiss or any number of other "won't ever fail" airlines over the years about "guarantees" about their career.

Secondly, what do you think it is that pays for your career ? Could it be something to do with those passengers who (or whose employers) buy tickets to fly on your airline ?

Over the last 5 years my company and its clients have spent nearly £60000 for me to travel on British Airways flights. Through all the spin it's hard to know how many cabin crew annual salaries this equates to but from the figures I've seen I'm guessing maybe one cabin service director, or a couple of more junior crew.

Over the last few months my travel with BA has dwindled to almost none due to:

- avoiding BA because of threatened and actual industrial action
- avoiding BA because of sour-faced cabin service on some previous flights (my return from honeymoon being the particular lowlight last year :*)
- flying less because of the economic downturn
- my company and its clients no longer recommend BA

All of which means £60000 more won't be coming BA's way from my company and clients' direction over the next five years.

Now it's clear that my situation is very common (indeed Virgin are reporting huge growth in premium customers joining their FF club in recent months).

So.... striking BA cabin crew: where is your future salary going to come from ?

Your choices are:

- modest cuts in how much BA spends on its cabin crew in line with the cuts the rest of the company have already accepted

AND

- improving your service to customers so that all of those who are already choosing your competitors return to BA

OR

- the company goes bust.

It's your call.

13Alpha

[Snas]

I wonder if these banners were held in the same hands that were raised at Sandown last year voting for no negotiation.

Does a video of this infamous meeting exist showing this raising of hands?

[Papillon]

Sky News are reporting (yes, I know) that BA are set to make a "major announcement".

[LD12986]

Haven't seen/heard anything yet.

[Hotel Mode]

Willie is addressing the company at 2pm. Just a chat on results and strike. Think Sky are getting over excited as ever.

[Llademos]

Flying for the next strike ... from the BA Intranet

May 30-June 3 schedule

We will be increasing our flying schedule during Unite’s threatened five day strike (May 30, 31 and June 1, 2, 3) after more cabin crew than expected decided to work as normal during this week’s industrial action.

Our Heathrow longhaul schedule will be increased to more than 70 per cent of flights (up from more than 60 per cent this week). Our Heathrow shorthaul schedule will increase to more than 55 per cent of flights (up from more than 50 per cent this week). We will continue to fly to every shorthaul destination on our network.

Services from Gatwick and London City airports will continue to operate as normal.

At this stage we expect to fly more than 75 per cent of customers who hold a booking between May 30 and June 3. This equates to around 65,000 customers flying each day. Many thousands more will be able to use seats we have secured on more than 50 other airlines to reach their destination, if they still wish to travel or be rebooked onto an alternative BA flight departing within the next 355 days. Refunds are also available for customers whose flights have been cancelled.

[al446]

Shame on you, you appear to deliberately juxtapose two completely separate things, a person's ability to understand industrial relations and their understanding and ability to fulfil their function as a responsible member of staff in a crisis situation by stating

How on earth can they be relied on in an on board situation requiring clear thought.

By all means criticise those who are choosing their own particular stance in this dispute but DO NOT go on to use the indecision you perceive in this scenario to question their abilities. It undermines everything you subsequently put forward.

[RHPrague]

The union side claims those flights that take off are half empty? Well three friends should be joining me in Vienna next week for a prepaid holiday weve been very nervous about. When the new schedule came out, their evening flight from LHR was one of those cancelled. One of them managed to re-book on the afternoon flight, but the second one found it was already full, and is on the morning flight. I'm a bit worried about the third one.

Anyway I have ordered them to bring choccies for their cabin crew;)

Thanks to all crew who are keeping flying.

[R Knee]

From the other thread... It seems people have been throwing water bombs and eggs at the open top bus BASSA are using to parade the militants around.

Could this be other BASSAitants hoping to get press sympathy?

By the way, it's taken a while but the main CC thread is today now more than double the number of pages on this thread. Maybe we've not made the strikers welcome enough or perhaps their arguments cannot stand up to scrutiny?

I, for one, miss them.

[plane speak]

"We will be holding another ballot on staff travel and the disciplinaries," said Simpson.

Woodley added that Unite was duty bound to hold another poll because a window of protection for striking crew, mandated by trade union legislation, expires on June 10 and exposes any staff who walk out to the threat of dismissal if they are not protected by a ballot.

"We have got no choice. We have got to give our people legal protection. We cannot take the chance that this gaffer will be sacking people," said Woodley.

Unite, buoyed by the 81% and 92% majorities for recent cabin crew strike ballots, believes a new poll will meet with similar success.Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/26/unite-union-ba-strike-talks)

I wonder what majority they will get this time, and whether they can perform a legal ballot. Or perhaps this is Woodley's way out by separating the travel issue from the business ones?

[plane speak]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/twitter_production/profile_images/105743566/Derek1_normal.jpg (https://m.twitter.com/dereksimpsonjgs) dereksimpsonjgs (https://m.twitter.com/dereksimpsonjgs)
ACAS talks with BA and Unite adjourned at 10 pm

[ChicoG]

How very thoughtful of the Socialist Worker:

Send messages of solidarity to
[email protected] and [email protected]

:ok:

[R Knee]

Do I understand correctly that BA deduct Unite subs from their workforce pay directly and transfer it to Unite?

If so they have accurate figures of membership and resignations from all departments. This must give an invaluable insight into the Unite support level.

What if BA decided not to do this any more, after all there must be a cost to it and cost savings need to be made? Wouldn't it cost Unite some considerable effort and money to set up all those Standing Orders/Direct Debits not to mention lost cash flow? Also how many current members would use the opportunity not to comply - lost form etc?

Perhaps only the threat of removal would focus negotiations somewhat.

[ChicoG]

That's quite a splendid suggestion. Merely tell people that they have to make their own arrangements.

It would also probably cause those who are wavering not to bother doing it.

<evil cackle>

[gr8tballsoffire]

Chico

Thanks for posting that. I will certainly use the opportunity to show "my support", though perhaps not in the way they intended.

Suggest we all do the same withot sinking to the level of the Bassaites.

[oggers]

Unite say they will ballot 'on staff travel and disciplinaries'. They also say they need the new ballot to extend the legal protection period for the strikers.

But, I thought that, in the spirit of preventing strikes dragging on indefinitely, any further ballot would be invalid if deemed an extension to an unsettled dispute.

And I think Unite will have trouble there because BASSA have insisted on tagging the ST and disciplinaries onto the 'acceptable' part of the current dispute, thereby making a link. Unless they accept the deal on offer and go back to work in the meantime, I doubt they'll have much chance of making this new ballot stand up. :hmm:

Unite and BA talks to resume on Friday | Business | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/26/unite-union-ba-strike-talks)

[call100]

Do I understand correctly that BA deduct Unite subs from their workforce pay directly and transfer it to Unite?

If so they have accurate figures of membership and resignations from all departments. This must give an invaluable insight into the Unite support level.

What if BA decided not to do this any more, after all there must be a cost to it and cost savings need to be made? Wouldn't it cost Unite some considerable effort and money to set up all those Standing Orders/Direct Debits not to mention lost cash flow? Also how many current members would use the opportunity not to comply - lost form etc?

Perhaps only the threat of removal would focus negotiations somewhat.
Many Union members already use Direct Debit to pay Union dues. Many managers, for instance, feel that they are not able to disclose union membership through DOCAS (Check off).
DOCAS is a collective agreement and would probably be seen as contractual...

[R Knee]

Thanks for the enlightenment Call 100.

[call100]

So.............there is something slightly illogical about this next ballot to restore staff travel and overturn disciplinaries.

For discussion purposes, let's assume for a mo' that 2500 went on strike of the total 9900 or so remaining BASSA members.

Why would any of the members who came to work, did not strike and did not lose their staff travel and might even have been the subjects of harrassment, bullying and the infamous facebook finger pointing incidents by some of these same 2500 strikers, then....

.....vote to go on strike AGAIN (when they didn't strike the first time, even after the previous ballot) to give back perks and reinstate some of the 2500 they clearly opposed by coming into work and ignoring the strike???

It was one thing for them all to vote against imposition. But now Unite is asking the non-strikers to vote............against THEMSELVES!

What the ruddy heck kind of logic is Unite employing with this new rocket scientist gambit???:confused:

p.s. It also strikes me that Unite are asking non-strikers to vote "yes" also to provide employment protection for the strikers---the disappearance of which by dismissal would presumably move all of the non-strikers up the seniority lists, ST lists, more opportunities for promotion. Good move Unite. Geesh. "Vote no and get a promotion!" Hoo haw.
Perhaps they don't want to win the ballot??;)

[ZimmerFly]

Soon it will be time for BASSA propagandists to face the "Firing Squad" that was justifably used against "Lord Haw-Haw" (DH) :E

[Final 3 Greens]

I flew to the middle east this morning and passed the picket line.

What a scruffy bunch of characters, like a collection of characters from Worzel Gummidge.

They were blowing whistles and shouting at cars.

I didn't even bother to say anything back, as most of them looked deranged.

[Jipperty]

I will be travelling on the 02:15 DEL LHR on the 30th, not being familiar with vageries of rostering etc can anyone tell me who will be on board? Will it be those that supported BA through this IA or can I expect to come face to face with some of the ever decreasing minority who seem hell bent on detroying BA and themselves.

Just wanted to know whether to bring choccies or not?

[Airclues]

Jipperty

Your crew will have left LHR on the BA143 on Friday, which is a 'strike' day.

Bring the choccies!

Dave

[interpreter]

Final 3 Greens (you must be ex-RAF)

Glad to see you appreciated the quality of the striking CC. I can only confess to seeing them on TV and wouldn't employ them to run a pig farm based on apearances.

Joking apart this is such a sad episode in the story of a great airline with a superb heritage. For goodness sake let's get rid of this rabble and re-build the company into something we can all be proud of.

PS after wrecking the futures of Messrs W & S and the BASSA leaders.

[Final 3 Greens]

Interpreter

Not RAF, just like to say things precisely and correctly ;-)

'Finals' never sounded right to me, even though some of my approaches might have been construed as to multiple runways :}

[JEM60]

Some flying people call their houses 'Short Finals'.
I once called one of my houses 'Downwind', whereupon my neighbour threatened to call his 'Upwind', and the neighbour the other side said he would call his 'Breakwind':)
Oh, how I wish this selfish strike would end!!!

[lowflyer]

I have a similar question to Jipperty - I'll be travelling EDI-LHR on 4 June. As this is a non-strike day, I assume the crew will not include VCC, but is there any way of knowing whether they are striking or non-striking.

I'd like to thank the non-strikers.

I'm glad now that my onward connections are with Qantas. Much as I'd have liked BA, getting to London was the easy part of my itinerary and I'd hate to be worrying about the long haul sectors too.

Thanks,
LF

[Neptunus Rex]

So far, the only pictures I have seen of the strikers show a poseur in a 'little douce coupé' and some generously proportioned ladies guzzling grog.
Can anybody post some authentic photos of the picket line and Bedfont to show us the numbers of people involved?

[EGLD]

Something I'm finding quite irritating about this strike, amongst many things obviously, is the apparent mixture of naivety and, I suspect, deliberate misinformation from cc about their salaries

The figures being thrown around when they are claiming poverty appear to be deliberately a mixture of post-tax take home amounts and figures that don't include the bulk of their earnings earnt whilst on duty

I've never heard of anyone outside of these BA stewardesses refer to their salaries in nett amounts, it's unheard of. Everyone talks about their salary in gross figures.

So when you hear people claiming they are having to survive on 12k per year, bear this in mind.

On the main thread, someone was whining that they couldn't afford to live on 27k per year. 27k per year!!!! way above average salary, this shouldn't be any particular hardship to live on, until you hear them refer to mortgages and the like, and it suddenly becomes apparent that this may just be about maintaining a lifestyle they perhaps cannot afford

Especially when it was pointed out that this 27k was TAKE HOME PAY

Laughable, it truly is. I wish more of the press attention was highlighting this

[Evanelpus]

EGLD has made some good observations.

I know lots of people that would love to be able to survive on a salary where the take home pay is in the mid 20,000's.

At the rate CC are going, they might not have an airline to work for in the near future. Suck it up boys and girls. Chalk this one down to experience and get back to work.

[PaddyMiguel]

So far, the only pictures I have seen of the strikers show a poseur in a 'little douce coupé' and some generously proportioned ladies guzzling grog.
Can anybody post some authentic photos of the picket line and Bedfont to show us the numbers of people involved?

Simon Calder in today's Indie claims to have the 10 point solution to the strike and his article is accompanied by a photo of the strikers. There's no guarantee of course that they are strikers; they could be just off sick or between trips even.

Check here:
10-point plan for getting BA back in the sky - News & Advice, Travel - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/10point-plan-for-getting-ba-back-in-the-sky-1985124.html)

[fincastle84]

Simon Calder advocates that Mr Walsh gives into Bassa & restores ST to the strikers. What he fails to grasp is that the MAJORITY of CC are working normally & they don't want ST reinstated for the strikers.

I think that Mr Walsh is more interested in looking after his long serving loyal CC than pandering to the bolshie minority. They were warned what would happen if they continued to strike. They reap what they sow.

[PaddyMiguel]

From the more than 4000 comments from airline employees on the other thread, surely this single quote, lifted from a post by HighFlyer14, sums up best this dreadful mess.

There are worse things in life than being asked to work a bit harder. Discuss that over your Pimms at Bedfont today.

[ILOVEMCO]

is there actually a strike by cc still on? :E i only ask because if you look through the flight status on ba.com for today you wouldn't think there was!

All 6 to JFK are operating as are all to MIA, LAX, SFO and ORD. Previously they were quite a few of them cancelled.

2 out 3 to BOS and EWR, previously it was only 1 each.

Out east all HKG, SIN, BOM, NRT are going.

Tbh am struggling to find many cancellations Long Haul. MEX, HYD, PHX have lost their 1 flight and theres a couple others, 1 to IAD, JNB, IAH, PHL and a few others.

Short haul is a different matter of course but theres still flights to every destination.

It this was the best BASSA could do :eek:

Everyone is against BASSA including it would seem most of there members! :hmm:

[johnoWhiskyX]

Im not a super important client for BA. I fly from MAN-LHR, LHR-LAS and return about 3 times a year with my wife in economy (clarification, flown twice now since october on above route, prior was just MAN-LHR then virgin to LAS).

99% of the CC have been pleasant, no real interaction. However 1% have been plain rude and snotty with a request for a bottle of water mid flight on a return ( window seat and two unknown people soundly asleep between me and the aisle) was met with a " can't you see im busy" and storm off to the back of the plane.

Anyway. I can find no sympathy for the strikers at present, 27K take home is more than i earn gross! (im lucky and my wife earns considerably more than me) I work for local government investigating serious injuries/fatalities in road accidents, looking at causes and designing solutions.

I would not call the strikers antics professional, nor has anyone i have chatted to. in fact even though im a union member and have been since i started work and would resign rather than my union support Unite and bassa..BASSA needs to be crushed because it is not imo working on behalf of its members, only itself.
Perks such as TS are imo not contractual benefits and can be removed at any time. that BA told people twice before striking this, they are surprised they were taken away? imagine a none contractual attendance bonus, someone is off, no bonus..try arguing out of that.

I am full of admiration for those not striking, trying to keep BA and our national carrier going. I have heard so many concerns about inimidation from strikers, the chants, name calling, emails and texts. And they have the audacity to complain about being bullied and inimidated?

I believe the 90 day redundency recruitment is only if the same position is to be filled. However, if say a CSD was made redundant and replaced with a New fleet CC..that isn't a like for like replacement, it is a new position and could happen immediately.

If and when strikers return to work i would advise keeping their heads down, snide comments or inimidation of none striking crews would allmost certainly lead to harrasment charges and disciplinary procedures. You may be able to intimidate from the picket line..not at work.

I would certainly resume my travels with BA, but not until i knew the trouble makers weren't there anymore to potentially disrupt my plans.

[The SSK]

Bear in mind that loss of ST is not just a negative for those who lose it, it's a bonus for those who don't. It shifts people from a position ahead of you in the queue for those last few standby seats, to behind you - even if they get it back with no seniority.

If the numbers who have lost ST are in the low thousands or even the high hundreds, it *will* make a difference to the travel chances of other employees (or retirees:))

[bubblesuk]

So far, the only pictures I have seen of the strikers show a poseur in a 'little douce coupé' and some generously proportioned ladies guzzling grog.

I'm sure that will endear them to the general public, standing around in designer clothes and designer shades whilst getting ratted, then theres the chappy in the Baverian Muppet Wagon, i suppose he is going to try to convince people he is underpaid? Did anyone else notice that the chap behind the wheel was on his second pint?
The Met should park up outside and breath test the lot of them when they leave.

[oldflyboy]

I wonder what BA's stance is going to be tommorrow, the first 'non strike' day of this cohort, with the crew who have been on strike over this period, whom presumably will make themselves available to fly on Saturday?

There has been no comment on this on the cabin crew thread, but personally I feel Mr Walsh should 'non op' them for the day, which means they will get a basic days pay but no flying allowances, rather than have them come in to work to further pollute the pool.

Anyone any thoughts or inside information? As ex BA crew now retired I am banned from asking on the BA V BASSA thread, so will be interested to hear from anyone in the know.

Over the last few days I have spoken to several working crew, and the general gist is that the Crew Report Centre is less frenetic or crowded, as BA seem to have been getting their ducks in a row numbers wise to cover their requirements for operating crew.

I'M BACKING BA! (Albeit from my armchair as despite my offer BA don't need old fogies to help as they have plenty of volunteer cabin crew!):ok:

Oldfly Boy

[wiggy]

So far, the only pictures I have seen of the strikers

Well some may be the genuine article but not all of those in the photos are strikers. As I think someone mentioned elsewhere the crowd could easily consist of those on leave, on days of during part time months and days off between trips...plus any other asssorted BASSA/Unite hangers on, looking for the Pimms...



"Simon Calder advocates that Mr Walsh gives into Bassa & restores ST to the strikers"

No matter what else was agreed that would be spun by BASSA as a major victory (" see, your Union promised to look after you"). Willie has given enough by giving ST back at all to the strikers.

[Snas]

is there actually a strike by cc still on? i only ask because if you look through the flight status on ba.com for today you wouldn't think there was!

The Union disagrees with your assessment of the impact somewhat...

BA Strike update - day 12 (http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/latest_news/ba_strike_update_-_day_12.aspx)

[Hotel Mode]

By 9am, 121 of these were cancelled - 20 of these are long haul and include flights to major and lucrative destinations including New York, Newark, Boston, Tel Aviv and Johannesburg.

101 Eurofleet flights were also cancelled .

By their own figures thats a cancellation rate of 121/333. So 63.3% operating. ie pretty much exactly what BA claim.

Not only do BA pay for carriers to take the passengers, they hand over the revenue from these flights too. Qantas, Iberia and Aer Lingus are the main beneficiaries today operating BA flights to Bangkok, Sydney, Melbourne, Madrid and Dublin.

Do they mean the codeshares that BA has to these destinations every day of the year? They really are quite astonishingly dim.

[EGLD]

I'm most certainly not on the side of the strikers, far from it, but I see no reason why staff travel should not be reinstated

It doesn't matter what those who've not been on strike think or want, especially as they personally stand to benefit from it being withdrawn

You can't start punishing people for taking part in legal strike action, no matter how much some of us might like to see that, it's just spiteful

Not being paid should be "punishment" enough to placate those who have been working

[Tin67]

It's strange how things can turn out at times. Being faced with distrupted travel plans is a nightmare, but somehow things have worked in my favour on a couple of occasions with this ongoing dispute.

I can't say I thank for the strikers, because I am far from supporting them. But from another perspective I do.

I was travelling to BCN over Xmas and was wondering if Xmas would be cancelled that year. Fortunately, the injunction lead to business and usual and we have a great break. BA doing their best to thank their customers for staying with them, we received 10k BA miles each on our Exec Club membership.

Great, thanks for that I was able to utlilse this extra miles to book J-Class upgrades to YVR in May....:rolleyes:

Or not as the case was. My flight this week was cancelled, but before BA released the schedule I decided to move the dates to just after the strike.

As another strange case of luck, I have been hit with a nasty virus all week. Not that the virus is lucky, but the fact that I didn't travel is. Nothing worse than being ill on your hols.

So in a odd way, thanks for the strike it's helped me. But, on the other hand, sort it out as you are wrecking thousands of other peoples plans.

[fincastle84]

Simpson has just accused Mr Walsh of blocking any deal. When will Unite wake up to the reality that he will not give ground on either reinstating ST or sacked employees.

I'd forgotten just how thick are these union leaders. These 2 are so bad they manage to make Scargill seem like a potential Mastermind.

[plane speak]

Unusual for the boss of a trade organisation to take a pot shot at the staff of a particular company, but the IATA boss has...

International Air Transport Association chief executive, Giovanni Bisignani, has launched a surprise attack on British Airways’ staff, as a walkout by trade union members enters its fifth day. Bisignani described the current labour dispute as unbelievable at a time when the entire airline industry is struggling to pull itself out of a crippling recession.

The trade body leader said that deciding to strike in the current economic climate showed that Unite members were divorced from reality. He added that airline employees must realise that their paycheques were reliant on the performance of the company that they worked for, and that at the moment, the economic turbulence in the world made business extremely tough.

[just an observer]

Re Unite's day 12 update, it says not only that quoted above, but also

Of the 333 flights BA said it was scheduled to operate today:

By 9am, 121 of these were cancelled - 20 of these are long haul and include flights to major and lucrative destinations including New York, Newark, Boston, Tel Aviv and Johannesburg.
101 Eurofleet flights were also cancelled .However, it is my understanding that BA have not cancelled any of the reduced schedule, and according to the other thread, some have been reinstated, ie the second flight to Hong Kong. I confirmed this on the BA website, it is up their available.

Also on the BA website, all the New York flights are going, and only 1 Newark is cancelled. 5 of the NY flights (incl Newark) have departed, the last 2 are still scheduled according to Flightstats.

Unite seem to be using the normal schedule as a comparative, not the strike one, and as far as New York (at least) is concerned, haven't even got that right.

[ExXB]

Mr. Walsh is on IATA's board and Giovanni looks after those that look after him. Simple.

[Jipperty]

Jipperty

Your crew will have left LHR on the BA143 on Friday, which is a 'strike' day.

Bring the choccies!

Dave


Great news, choccies in club on me - great to know no wreckers on board. The sooner they all do the right thing and go on continuous strike the better for the country as a whole. I can't think it will take long to replace them all, no doubt there are plenty of local willing volunteers within 10 miles of LHR.

[gr8tballsoffire]

The SSK
Retirees are last in the queue. Serving staff regardless os seniority will have priority except for "firm" bookings.

[marchino61]

I have a question which I haven't seen addressed either here on on the airline crew thread. Perhaps someone ex-airline could clarify it for me?

How is it that staff travel tickets are supposedly on a standby basis, yet some staff use them to commute to work? How can you risk a standby ticket if it means you might not get to work on time?

[kenhughes]

You leave home early. :ok:

[Llademos]

... and ensure there are at least two flights you can take to get to work, and, usually, have options on other carriers (most ST tickets can be used without further endorsement on other airlines such as BMi and Virgin), and, if long haul, have back up tickets through an 'easy' station such as JFK.

I don't commute by air, but would be subject to a disciplinary if I was late back from holiday. To date, following the above, I have never had a problem.

[johnoWhiskyX]

Was recently chatting to a few collegues regarding the IA. one is a confirmed Vriginite and the other swears by BA. Both were shocked when i pointed out that the strike was by 4000 ish BA staff and that the rest of the BA staff, loaders, pilots ramp ect had no problem with it at all..no idea of what number constitute "the rest of BA" but they both found it appaling that 4000 may be able to dictate and threaten the lively hood of possible 30, 000?

Of course the conversation got around to staff travel, we have just had our travel allowance removed. so initially sympathy abounded until i mentioned people are crying aout flying to work..living in portugal or some foreign country and working UK. Expletives abounded. The result was best described as " own bloody stupid fault" or " well do what ordinary people do, move house close to where you work!"

Do the strikers have any inkling of the lack of support and in a lot of cases despise they engender from members of the public and users of BA's services?

[Hartington]

johnoWhiskyX I agree with you but in the end I don't see it as any different to people who buy a holiday home somewhere on the assumption that a low cost flies to the local airport and then get annoyed when the service is withdrawn. I'm also amazed by people in the UK who commute anything more than an hour - the risk of things going wrong is too high in my view.

[wiggy]

sympathy abounded until i mentioned people are crying about flying to work..living in portugal or some foreign country and working UK. Expletives abounded

The issue of BA crew commuting by air has been blown up in the media to attract the green eye of envy..it certainly makes good copy, especially in the Daily Mail, which sells in significant numbers in one of our local "tabacs" :ooh:

In reality there are plenty of Brits down here in my part of France who "commute" by air to the UK to work, I know of oil industry workers ( commuting maybe 5-6 times a year), City types ( once a week - so similar frequency to airline crew ), and there's even the odd one or two high powered types who do a daily commute to London when the schedules allow it....so it's really not that unusual, what is unusual is being stupid enough to jeopardise your ability to do it.


Do the strikers have any inkling of the lack of support and in a lot of cases despise they engender from members of the public and users of BA's services?

Sadly the answer is no, or worse still if they do know, they don't care.....

[Guava Tree]

"Not being paid should be "punishment" enough to placate those who have been working"
I don't think so. In fact things have already gone too far for that.

[jethrobee]

One question I have, the dispute now appears to be about the non-contractual staff travel benefit, with various people on the other crew forum complaining that it is a vital benefit to getting to work.

What happens if BA were to offer it back, but make it contractual? Surely if the company were feeling vindictive they would do that, then it wouldnt be worth the paper its written on because of the massive tax implications....

Surely Bassa would be better off looking at the tax implications of this before insisting.

[dilldog01]

the problem is Jethrobee that the 30000 odd other BA staff who have supported the company and whose staff travel would also have to be made contractual and taxable might be more than a little miffed...add to that that the Revenue would then probably view ALL airline staff travel in the UK as a taxable item then you going to have a lot of unhappy people

[Guava Tree]

No, I think the company will not offer it back.
They are driven by the motivation to survive in an increasingly competive world.

[Dual ground]

I would like to state that all the training times listed are approximate, and that I appreciate that things will very from country to country and from operator to operator.

Training time required for pilot to attain ATPL :-

2 years

Training time required to become an EASA licensed aircraft engineer :-

3 years absolute minimum

Training time required to become cabin crew :-

3 weeks.......

Now, I wonder which group of people are most easily replaced if so required....

[wiggy]

jethrobee:Surely Bassa would be better off looking at the tax implications of this before insisting.

dilldog1:add to that that the Revenue would then probably view ALL airline staff travel in the UK as a taxable item then you going to have a lot of unhappy people

Please don't underestimate BASSA's ability to cut of their nose to spite their face, so to speak......logic, taking the wider view and thinking of what's best for the majority... I don't think so :ugh:

[L337]

Training time required for pilot to attain ATPL :-

2 years

However to get to sit in the left hand seat of a 777/747 you are looking at 15 to 20 years flying experience. It has been done in less, but not that often, and the insurers get a little twitchy I believe.

[Dual ground]

However to get to sit in the left hand seat of a 777/747 you are looking at 15 to 20 years flying experience. It has been done in less, but not that often, and the insurers get a little twitchy I believe.

Quite so L337. And on a similar note someone who is trained in a "Part147 superstore" with the bare bones 12 months experience required to get a B1 or B2 EASA AME license is not going to become a chief engineer immediately either .

[Llademos]

Just for clarification ...

Staff Travel does attract a tax liability. However, BA pays an agreed sum to the Inland Revenue (or whatever they are called nowadays) to cover.

Another reason to remove it from the strikers - BA is subsidizing our staff travel, don't see why this should apply to people who are damaging the company.

[oldflyboy]

For the older ones who may remember, there is a great song by Jefferson Airplane called 'White Rabbit', which tells of Alice and the pills that made her taller or smaller, and her journeys through Wonderland................ Reading the other thread it does sound as if Duncan Holley has found a little bottle of these somewhere, as his postings are getting more like something Lewis Carroll would have penned!

After all this is over, at least he will be unable to influence so many members of the Cult, unless of course Unite give him a job?? :ugh:

[johnoWhiskyX]

I really hope Willie doesn't give in on travel to the strikers. In fact i would be more likely to use BA sooner if i new all the rotten apples were no longer there.

Regarding Bassa/Unite assertion that removing travel from strikers is discrimination and illegal. Why then are they asking for it back (negotiating) when it could be got back for free?
And whilst i dont think they will get much UK support for a legal case of getting it back, they might in Europe..BUT..Given the new government coalitions views on EU beaurocracy and power being taken from the host government to EU..i would be surprised to see..or not..back room machinations to keep UK sweet.

[LD12986]

If, as reported, BA is going to start recruiting new crew onto New Fleet shortly, Unite should start negotiating a settlement ASAP.

WW has said that it doesn't need any agreement with Unite to start New Fleet. Without any agreement with Unite, it has carte blanche to implement New Fleet as it pleases. So it could be adieu to NRT, SIN, HKG etc for current CC.

[Diplome]

I'm rather amazed that Mr. Holley's missives are about crews over-indulging, cakes and pouting that he hasn't met Mr. Walsh, rather than serious issues regarding what this strike means for BASSA's members.

His updates have the ring of pre-teen messages about Friday nights party.

I see on the CC forum that we have a poster making the inane comparison between this strike and a court case.

You can "back BA", negotiate, and even litigate in a professional manner. That is quite different from wearing BA's executives photos on your rear-end while screaming at hotels.

[Jarvy]

I would like to say thank you to BASSA, as due to the IA BA have have just renewed Mrs. J's gold memember even though it looked like she would drop down to silver.

[TruBlu123]

"Twenty five per cent of cabin crew lost staff travel in March for going on strike.
The airline warned in January that strikers would face a permanent staff travel ban.
Crew taking part in the latest strike action were given the same warning.
Travel concessions are a non-contractual benefit offered at the company's discretion.
Staff travel was not the reason cabin crew first voted to go on strike. The ballot related to cost saving measures in IFCE. The airline has since addressed all those concerns and reached agreement in principle with Unite but not with its branch, Bassa.
During the negotiations facilitated by the Trades Union Congress (TUC), BA's CEO Willie Walsh agreed to a request from the TUC general secretary Brendan Barber to consider lifting the permanent ban on staff travel for crew who had lost it.
The compromise meant that commuting crew who had taken action would get the use of staff travel for journeys to and from work as soon as an agreement is reached. Other crew would get their concessions back once a deal was fully implemented. There were conditions attached to the offer including the roll back of seniority.
Everyone would get it back on retirement.
The offer included regular monitoring of the deal and its implimentation, with the first review after 12 months.
Willie Walsh said afterwards that he had agreed to the compromise because he felt that many crew had been misled by Bassa.
BA has recently made another significant gesture by keeping the staff travel offer on the table, despite stating it would be withdrawn if Unite went ahead with the current strikes.
Unite want staff travel to be returned immediately and in its current form."

"How does staff travel work?
Travel concessions are a non-contractual benefit provided at the company's discretion
Current and retired staff used more than 60,000 bookable concessions during 09/10, a significant rise since a more flexible policy was introduced in April 2009.
The airline incurs direct costs of putting an additional passenger onto a plane and the costs of the infrastructure that supports staff travel.
Colleagues pay a £10 booking fee to cover some of the costs.
Although strictly a personal tax liability, BA chooses to pick up the tax bill on behalf of both employees and pensioners and settles this with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs every year."

The above is lifted directly from BANews dated 27 May 2010.

[johnoWhiskyX]

How many flights can some one get per year or is it unlimited and this is where seniority would come into play?
Are these for long haul as well as short haul.
Are they class limited..economy/flexible economy/business/First?
That figure is an Awful lot of trips.

From the main CC thread it appears the union asked that the TS be reinstated and they would suspend industrial action..not cancel it.
And i believe that Unite have allready said many of the proposals on the table are significantly improvements to the last offer ( but worse than what was offered last year)
but Bassa just keep saying no. And have even voted with a show of hands for a " no negotiation" stance.

As a normal working Joe this is what gets me so damn mad about the strikers and i suspect the rest of BA and the country. V, Good pay, excellent perks and they are striking.
Me and my Wife can't even afford premium economy when flying atlantic. I sincerely hope CC TS isnt pushing the price up of anything other than economy seats by creating an artifical scarcity. Mind saying that, while 60,000 is a lot in the scheme of things its a drop in the ocean.

[Jipperty]

I would like to say thank you to BASSA, as due to the IA BA have have just renewed Mrs. J's gold memember even though it looked like she would drop down to silver.


My experience has been similar, during the IA having travelled LH on 4 occasions now during strike days BA have never failed to get me to my destination. The only inconvenience was when my scheduled SFO flight was cancelled but was put on the earlier flight with a free upgrade to first - very nice thankyou BASSA

[R Knee]

From the other thread... The CAA and Boeing have just approved a drop in minimum crew on the 767 down to 5 for under 240 pax.I don`t know if this was from a request by BA but it could mean 1 more crew off a 767.

Perhaps BA are planning their rostering with 2500 fewer CC for a few (3) months. Perhaps this ties in with the September recruitment? I for one would accept a lower service for this period if it got rid of the grumpy 'wagon dragons' and allowed BA to restore a sensibly costed service.

My sympathies lie with those whose, perhaps misguided/misdirected, actions will cause them to regret their stance.

[Jipperty]

I for one would accept a lower service for this period if it got rid of the grumpy 'wagon dragons' and allowed BA to restore a sensibly costed service.



I couldn't agree more.

[Chuchinchow]

I'm rather amazed that Mr. Holley's missives are about crews over-indulging, cakes and pouting that he hasn't met Mr. Walsh, rather than serious issues regarding what this strike means for BASSA's members.


I'm not.

Clearly, Mister Holley has nothing substantive to write about as - to paraphrase Willie Walsh some months ago - he is not sitting at the top table. On the contrary, Duncan Holley is on the table.

[johnoWhiskyX]

Pre coffee fug and it has just occured to me this whole dispute is like lord of the rings.
I think we are at Return of The king.
Saruman is defeated and locked in his tower ( Duncan H). Aragorn ( Willie Walsh ) is taking a breather wondering what to do. The Orcs ( BA strikers) are now looking at unite for leadership. Unite ( Sauron) are bottled up in their fortress desperately making plans for a final push.
Supporting cast
Nazgul/Wrath Riders .. Bassa Reps
Golem...Mr Simpson
Hobbits..Working CC

gave me a giggle anyway.

[Diplome]

ChicoG:


I suspect he wrote at least one of his banal contributions while drunk.


I believe I know which one you are referring to and I had the exact same thought.

[scotbill]

After all the claims and counter claims running through the thousands of posts on this sorry saga, perhaps it is time to remind ourselves that the initial dispute was about whether Cabin Service Directors should take an active part in the service to passengers.

To protect their hallowed 'managerial' roles on world wide fleets, a BASSA council dominated by CSDs was prepared to lead 12000+ cabin crew (many working under completely different conditions) into a twelve day strike over Christmas. Even though that was avoided, their subsequent actions have caused untold damage to BA and alienated most of the other staff in the airline. As an ex-union man, I cannot recall any industrial action which has had so little support - never mind active antagonism - from the staff as a whole.

I have yet to see it denied on these forums that many of the BASSA council have conveniently been able to avoid personal consequences by being off sick.

I feel very sorry for junior crew who have been so cruelly misled and may see their future careers blighted by the stubborn refusal of their 'leaders' to accept the reality of the economic situation facing the airlines of the world.

SB

[Chuchinchow]

As for the ex employee who represents BA crew. I watched some of the Lord of the Rings movie and its clear that that you cannot give up the ring of power unless it is prized from your fingers. Ask Mugabe, Blair, Brown and the ex employee who still represents cabin crew.


I think there is some truth in that.

[ChicoG]

Scotbill you raise a very good point.

I do believe that BA could do themselves a favour by stating publicly:

(1) How many BASSA reps are off sick long term.
(2) How many BASSA reps deliberately avoided striking by going off sick at the time.

I don't think people understand the levels deceit from these well-paid phonies. They are the pigs from Animal Farm (no, not the famous Dutch movie, the George Orwell classic).

If you are signed off sick and spotted at Bedfont, you should be dismissed for defrauding the company.

If you were claiming sickness benefits and going off partying, they'd be all over you like a cheap suit; why should private companies have to hold to a higher standard? At the very least, it would weaken their unfair dismissal claim.

[RTR]

Giggling his way through questions as though butter wouldn't melt! Taking shots at WW who has suggested more talks in 3 weeks! THAT.............is very interesting. Simpson didn't think so and nearly burst a blood vessel. Unite appear to think they are blameless and have tried all they can. Why don't they try getting BASSA to start living in the world we live in?

[fincastle84]

Simpson is really p****d off because Mr Walsh has refused to meet him for at least a week whilst Unite have their Manchester love in.

Simpson knows that the strike is failing & that in a week's time there will be no requirement for further talks as BA will be pretty well back to normal & Bassa will be neutered.

I'm supporting BA!:ok:

[SamYeager]

I do believe that BA could do themselves a favour by stating publicly: (1) How many BASSA reps are off sick long term. (2) How many BASSA reps deliberately avoided striking by going off sick at the time. I rather suspect this would be deemed to be contrary to data protection rules or some human right to privacy. I doubt that BA want to give Bassa any moral rights to the high ground.

[RTR]

Just looked at the interview again and the BBC report that WW he was willing to meet them in Manchester - Unite turned that down. Simpson said that WW then said he could "meet them the week after next." Simpson was staggered by that. Wonder what he was expecting?

As for Duncan Holley I still say that he should keep his mouth shut. I could never be persuaded that ANYONE who is not recognised as representing BASSA members. i.e. by default he no longer has contact with BA since being sacked by them or the office facilities that BA provided. His position in a court of law would almost certainly be persona non grata. Unless an eagle can tell us otherwise.

[Diplome]

RTR:

Do you have a link to the interview?

Thank you.

[TRX75]

Here you go BBC News - British Airways cabin crew start fresh five-day strike (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10192470.stm)

[interpreter]

Listening to Simpson on BBC at lunchtime today I thought what bad luck for the striking BA CC to have joined such a dumb union. Simpson was absolutely convinced that BA had called the strike! Mr Simpson please remember UNITE CALLED THE STRIKE, not BA. This has to be a nail in the coffin for unions that cannot negotiate properly on behalf of their members. The writing was on the wall for all BA crew - both flight deck and cabin - and there was never any doubt that serious economies had to be made. It is the managements job to manage and they are working hard to get the airline onto a sustainable long term financial footing. If they don't all the BA jobs are at risk. All I can say is that from what I am hearing a very substantial number of strikers are rueing the day they decided to strike and even more the day thay decided to join BASSA. There is hope for us all!

[Aquatone1]

"How does staff travel work?
Travel concessions are a non-contractual benefit provided at the company's discretion
Current and retired staff used more than 60,000 bookable concessions during 09/10, a significant rise since a more flexible policy was introduced in April 2009.
The airline incurs direct costs of putting an additional passenger onto a plane and the costs of the infrastructure that supports staff travel.
Colleagues pay a £10 booking fee to cover some of the costs.
Although strictly a personal tax liability, BA chooses to pick up the tax bill on behalf of both employees and pensioners and settles this with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs every year."


I worked for the best part of 50 years, without any "perks". I have read all the cc posts elsewhere and know enough that there are many very good people working for BA.

That said, reading these posts it is difficult not to conclude that BA has become an airline run for the benefit of its employees. Cheap/free flights and tax liability paid by the company. :\

Should I and my family continue to patronise these people? I think not.

[Phil Rigg]

Diplome - The DS interview can be found on the BBC iPlayer at the following link starting at 07:45 into the programme:

BBC iPlayer - The Andrew Marr Show: 30/05/2010 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00sp48m/The_Andrew_Marr_Show_30_05_2010/)

[Diplome]

Thank you so much :)

[Der absolute Hammer]

(Although strictly a personal tax liability, BA chooses to pick up the tax bill on behalf of both employees and pensioners and settles this with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs every year.")

Does BA do this at the employee's marginal rate of income tax or on a pre arranged basis with the revenue authority or if not on those basis, then on what agreement do they have. There has to be a difference between travel on BA incurred about as a positioning to work and travel solely for recreation on the part of the employee or the employee's nominated proxy. Is the benefit cumulative and even large enough take the value of a salary in to the 40% tax bracket.
So WW plays a clever waiting game while the conference is on, presumably making the hope that the union themselves will throw BASSA out. At the same time, if he does not give way on the travel perks, he must save BA a fortune in tax money. There's a bit of the pension fund problems still to come?

[Phil Rigg]

Diplome - You're welcome!

So, following on from Len McCluskey we seem now to be hearing significantly less of Tony Woodley's involvement as the TUC guy (Len Barber is it?) stepped in to conduct the negotiations with Willie Walsh last Friday instead. Looks like the Unite leaders are continuing to jump ship away from the BA dispute especially in view of the images they wish to portray to their broader membership at their conference in Manchester next week.

TW & DS not showing up to meet their loyal members at Bedfont as scheduled for last Monday afternoon was a bad move as it will have left strikers asking "Are the leaders I am sticking my neck out for really batting for me or not?" This would have been a turning point away from the Union for many.

DS would do much better if he looked more professional by wearing a tie and showed a more respectful attitude towards his clearly very worthy opponent rather than the somewhat disheveled and unrestrained performances that he continues to give to the press.

But this monumental power struggle has never been about negotiation from the start as Willie Walsh has known all along. It's interesting to hear DS and others stuttering the words "regime change" more often as even they are finally admitting to themselves what it is really all about.

[just an observer]

(Although strictly a personal tax liability, BA chooses to pick up the tax bill on behalf of both employees and pensioners and settles this with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs every year.")

Does BA do this at the employee's marginal rate of income tax or on a pre arranged basis with the revenue authority or if not on those basis, then on what agreement do they have. There has to be a difference between travel on BA incurred about as a positioning to work and travel solely for recreation on the part of the employee or the employee's nominated proxy. Is the benefit cumulative and even large enough take the value of a salary in to the 40% tax bracket.
So WW plays a clever waiting game while the conference is on, presumably making the hope that the union themselves will throw BASSA out. At the same time, if he does not give way on the travel perks, he must save BA a fortune in tax money. There's a bit of the pension fund problems still to come?


I don't know what rate the revenue/BA use, whether an average or specific to staff who have used the tickets, but the tax cost is not high, individually, as although 'bookable', ultimately even the bookable tickets are an otherwise empty seat. If a passenger needs it, the staff don't get on. So the cost to BA is simply the food and drink, and admin costs, and the remote possiblity of the cost of overnight accomodation for offloaded staff on a firm bookable ticket that they have been offloaded from abroad. However, this is rare, BA knows it's load factors very well, and does not give bookable tickets out on any old route, any old time, but only where it expects there to be space!

There is a maximum of 2 bookable tickets a year, if someone has 20 years service or more, 1 after 5 years.

The standby tickets make a profit as BA get 10% where they would otherwise get nothing, I would expect the tax cost of the bookable tickets is covered from the profit on the standby tickets.

Positioning to work would be standby only, as no one would have enough bookable tickets to use them for work. As said above and in previous posts, standby tickets do not attract tax as they cost BA nothing.

BA management and the unions have agreed a solution to the pension fund shortfall, simply put, work longer/pay more, it is awaiting ratification from the pensions authority.

[Chuchinchow]

BBC News - BA strike: The three men trying to find a solution (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8579778.stm)

I noticed there was no mention of Duncan Holley. Clearly the BBC considers him of no importance.

[Diplome]

Mr. Rigg:

Again, thank you so much for kindly providing the link.

I found the Simpson interview interesting on a few fronts.

His comment which I believe was "Wake up Britain"...is a direct response to the fact that Unite know that they do not have the support of the "man in the street" and are trying to find talking points to gain traction in that arena.

Simpson's offer to negotiate "in front of cameras" was another blatant attempt by Unite/BASSA to play to the average citizen. The obvious problem with this message is that they are having it delivered by Mr. "Can I text about my lunch selection" Simpson who is already discredited with the public regarding his need for publicity. Might have played well but they chose the wrong messenger.

Simpson's frustration regarding BA's lack of urgency regarding meetings (though BA stated, and will, meet with them in Manchester if they are agreeable) was probably genuine.

Unite/BASSA have backed BA into a position where BA's best option may be, while continuing to be available for negotiations, to just continue with their business plan. All of the panic, all of the disagreement, is at the moment between Unite and BASSA. Unite cannot promise to deliver this extremist factions votes for any agreement. The Press is getting this message, BA has GOT that message.

When Simpson states that his members will not come back "punished" he's speaking directly regarding BASSA's militant faction's message. Unfortunately, they may have lost control of their destiny.

I'm finding this all most intruiging and have lost all sympathy for the striking cabin crew. You can only stay so ignorant for so long...then you just become an accessory.

...and please forgive my length of post. I blame it one the second cocktail :)

[widebody69]

I'm finding this all most intruiging and have lost all sympathy for the striking cabin crew. You can only stay so ignorant for so long...then you just become an accessory.

That's a very important point. At the beginning you could be forgiven for getting sucked into BASSA's world but as the lies began to unravel, every man and his dog could see the real picture. With BASSA still spouting after all these weeks, closing your eyes pretending not to see doesn't cut it. From the beginning of the 2nd strike, accessories is the correct term in my view. No more hiding behind your incompetent union.

[JackMcHammocklashing]

Saturday I received both email and Royal Mail, a letter from UNITE the UNION
We appreciate your membership, though our records show you have not paid this current year, Please pay up NOW

I have never been a member of UNITE, I was however a member of AMICUS about TEN years ago When I resigned as I was no longer an engineer and of the totally usless help I got when I once needed them
Amicus were some time later taken over by or amalgameted with UNITE

Now they want my subs (What would that be for ?)

Over on the other place they are up in arms about the safety of flying with vcc,
Well I feel a Qualified Pilot, would have no problem pushing a dolly trolley, and serving me a cuppa, and I am sure that in an emergency they would be well qualified in evacuation procedures, which is a bit unnecessary as most of us would be dead anyway
However I would not feel quite so secure with a trolley dolly covering for the Pilot

Note for Cabin crew, anyone can push a trolley up and down, be polite and serve tea/coffee Anyone fucoffee, and be numerate enough to collect the correct cost and provide the correct change when flogging DF's

You do I agree have to be a brain cell higher than the average CHAV to learn the correct emergency procedures HEY even I managed at 15years old when I joined the Royal Navy as air crew, including as the Junior rate to make tea coffee and Jacobs cream crackers with cheese triangles for 30 oppos

Hundreds indeed thousands of qualified CC working for £12k for EJ RA and a dozen more airlines would be more than happy for £13k no perks, NOT forgetting our EU A8 National Friends who would do it for £6k

I have just completed six BA flights non strike days Dubai/Heathrow/Edin
They were very good, though the stress of not knowing if I was going to actualy meet my cruise ships for a couple of months was unforgivable

I have advised UNITE that I will not be paying my subs as I left the union over ten years ago

Jack McHammocklashing

[LD12986]

Judging from some comments elsewhere, I think many CC may have now learned the hard way that a vote in favour of industrial action should be just that - a vote to say I am prepared to withdraw my labour with all the consequences that entails and nothing else.

It was repeated many times during the ballot process that CC voted in favour of industrial action to "send WW a message" or to "bring WW back to the negotiating table". That has clearly failed. The union has also taken the mandate for industrial action and wreaked havoc with it, calling the 12 days of Christmas strike, calling the March strikes even though WW allowed an extension to the strike deadline to let CC be balloted on the offer on the table and now the 20 day strike action which seems to be collapsing 6 days into the 15 days of actual strike action.

I really hope for everyone's sake that BA is able to recover from this both financially and in terms of customer service.

[JackMcHammocklashing]

Start the new Airline, and recruit the non striking staff at enhanced payment (a pound) with all the perks but new conditions, Serve sixty pax instead of fifty for CC all others Pilots etc same original conditions

End BA and pay off all the staff

I do not mean abuse the staff, on recent flights, they were not exactly overworked. Though do not make changes that are abusive

I do have experience of this, in present employment
There were six doing the work, which reasonably could be done by four, without breaking sweat, just actually having to work
Unfortunatley they dropped it to two, which has become possible but a damn hard graft, HMRC, possible but causing stress as non stop work eight hours a day every second two 15 minute breaks and a 30 minute unpaid lunch £16k

ie:- take the clients details and work it, file it and take a two minute recovery before next client
Now take the clients details and work it, file it and take the next clients details, constant non stop for eight hours, no chance to speak to collegues for even one second
That is abuse of staff!
With four, it would be take details file it take a breath, recover then next client

It appears BA are taking the 8 staff and dropping it to five NOT 6 to 2
Though you have to beware of the thin end of the wedge, That would be when strike action needs to be looked at if they decide two

Jack McH

[kenhughes]

Serve sixty pax instead of fifty for CC...

I think the CAA may take a dim view of that, due to the fact they set the ratio of CC to Pax at 50 to 1.

[Winch-control]

Times on-line: Strikes are a minefield - for both sides of the dispute - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article7137446.ece)
“In practice, it’s not difficult to create a tick-box list for a trade union to follow. And, what’s more, we have been living with this legislation for 18 years. If you can’t get your systems right after all this time then you should really look seriously at yourself.”
Moreover, as Lock emphasises, the deal works both ways. Provided a trade union jumps through the hoops prescribed in the legislation, it has a defence against the charge of doing something illegal — namely inciting its members to act in breach of their contracts of employment.
Without that defence the union could face severe penalties. So, in effect, there is trade-off. Follow the slightly complicated rules designed to ensure transparency and in return you will be protected by the law.

hmm food for BASSA thought?

[Pohutu]

Whilst the points made in the Times article are interesting, it's worth bearing in mind that the article is not wholly free of bias. The three firms of solicitors quoted in the article have substantial practices advising employers on employment law, and their views appear to reflect that. I imagine that you would get a rather different slant from firms which traditionally represent the unions.

[Phil Rigg]

As the first ballot protected period draws to a close this battle will be headed towards the courts again. When BA start sending out either sacking notices or even just down-sizing redundancy notices to remove the extreme and disruptive Union employees the lawyers will be summonsed on both sides to lock horns. My understanding is that DH is currently preparing an appeal.

One of Willie Walsh's biggest problems is he will stand accused during the current striking phase of negotiating in bad faith as he is walking the tightrope appearing to negotiate in good faith to an amicable resolution while all the time following the private agenda of regime change.

The courts view people who negotiate in bad faith as always wearing the black hat in any dispute and in his somewhat blinkered and inexperienced way this may be what DS is fumbling to highlight in his appeal for the current negotiations to be on public display.

As Diplome says absolutely "intruiging".

[johnoWhiskyX]

I Have to disagree with Phil's comment

"One of Willie Walsh's biggest problems is he will stand accused during the current striking phase of negotiating in bad faith as he is walking the tightrope appearing to negotiate in good faith to an amicable resolution while all the time following the private agenda of regime change."

Yes he has an agenda he wants change (as do the rest of BA) Do not forget the rest of BA have to come to agreements regarding change. I think what is now becoming apparent is that bassa do not and while UNITE are negotiating and comeing to aggreements..these agreements then have to go by bassa who up until now have said "NO" to everything.

Even haveing a show of hands ballot for " no negotiation"

[RetiredBA/BY]

What I don't think has been mentioned in these discussions is the wonderful opportunity BASSA has presented, on a plate, to BA and its loyal staff.

There are few situations in business where a serious problem does not present at least some opportunity for advantage and here it is.

This strike by SOME cc has galvanised the vast majority of BA staff into united action to overcome as much of the problem as is possible, to wit, volunteers from within the company training to do the jobs of the strikers, is that without precedent in recent IR history ? One would have thought that could be no clearer message to the strikers that they are going to lose.

Now, with all of this cohesive action within BA to overcome, as far as is possible, this IA at a time of huge losses in exceptionally difficult business conditions, the BA management needs to harness this new team spirit which I would liken to the Blitz, or Dunkirk spirit. How its done is up to the HR experts but what an opportunity !

If, indeed, this new spirit can be retained and used to the advantage of the company and its employees the risk is that it could be undermined by sour, bitter, ex strikers returning and tarnishing the new accord creating a very difficult working environment, totally alien to the needs of a customer service industry. That, I would argue, would be totally counterproductive, so the ONLY answer is to dismiss all current strikers and replace them with fresh, enthusiastic new blood, theres plenty around and many, many excellent cabin crew already within BA who will benefit both with a better working environment and many promotions.

We have the Olympics coming in 2 years, a new government who seem to recognise economic reality, this really is a time to relaunch a fresh, vibrant BA to again show the world what we CAN do and take a top position in world air transport and return to profitability. The opportunity is here let it not be wasted.

.....and who cares if the strikers finish up stacking shelves at Aldi (doubt if Tesco would employ them !) if they lose their jobs it is entirely of their own making.

So come on Willy, sack them all ASAP, and rebuild BA as we knew it.

I, too, am backing BA, as a shareholder and with my cheque book, SYD-LHR next Saturday in Club, again, should be interesting !

PS Whilst figures have been released, or the media have reported, about the direct cost to BA of this IR DURING the strike periods I dread to think about the cost to future bookings or the degradation of the BA brand image.

Time for serious action before ITS TOO LATE !

[Diplome]

Mr. Rigg:

Unfortunately for Unite/BASSA in my opinion, there are a few facts that will make it difficult for Duncan Holley to win on appeal (IF he appeals and I'm not sure he will) and for Unite to assert that BA has negotiated in bad faith.

Mr. Holley freely admitted in a radio interview that he made the specific choice to not show up for rostered duty...several times. He stated that he knew he was in violation of company policy but that he felt that his Union duties were more important.

Mr. Holley also revealed that he took his pension prior to the start of the strikes.

A reasonable individual could assert that Mr. Holley's actions were deliberate, made with forethought, and that Mr. Holley knew his actions would result in his dismissal.

Unite/BASSA have handed BA an excellent defense to any "bad faith" allegation.

Despite Simpson's rhetoric BA has made itself available time and time again for negotiations. In fact, Mr. Simpson's multiple assertions that BA refuse to meet, when Unite knows full well that is not the case, can be used as a defense for BA.

Mr. Simpson's stream of texts during the negotiations reveal what most professionals would identify as a gross disrespect for both the negotiation process, its contents, and participants. Try as they might to belittle this event it was a horrendously stupid stunt by Mr. Simpson and the public condemnation he has received should give him some indication of the damage he has done to his image.

The protestors appearance at the negotiation session may still come into play. You can be assurred that BA is looking into how they discovered the location of the meeting, what was communicated to them by the BASSA member who addressed them immediately prior to their appearance, and if any BASSA members were in attendence at their "protest".

The dysfunction between Unite and BASSA is an obvious roadblock to a solution in this instance. BASSA and Unite can assert a "super secret agenda of regime change" by BA but unless they can come up with documentation all they have is conjecture...much like the 20 planes at Cardiff.

Without a paper trail showing specific intent I wouldn't give an assertion by Unite of "bad faith" a snowball's chance in hades.

[call100]

What I don't think has been mentioned in these discussions is the wonderful opportunity BASSA has presented, on a plate, to BA and its loyal staff.

There are few situations in business where a serious problem does not present at least some opportunity for advantage and here it is.

This strike by SOME cc has galvanised the vast majority of BA staff into united action to overcome as much of the problem as is possible, to wit, volunteers from within the company training to do the jobs of the strikers, is that without precedent in recent IR history ? One would have thought that could be no clearer message to the strikers that they are going to lose.

Now, with all of this cohesive action within BA to overcome, as far as is possible, this IA at a time of huge losses in exceptionally difficult business conditions, the BA management needs to harness this new team spirit which I would liken to the Blitz, or Dunkirk spirit. How its done is up to the HR experts but what an opportunity !

If, indeed, this new spirit can be retained and used to the advantage of the company and its employees the risk is that it could be undermined by sour, bitter, ex strikers returning and tarnishing the new accord creating a very difficult working environment, totally alien to the needs of a customer service industry. That, I would argue, would be totally counterproductive, so the ONLY answer is to dismiss all current strikers and replace them with fresh, enthusiastic new blood, theres plenty around and many, many excellent cabin crew already within BA who will benefit both with a better working environment and many promotions.

We have the Olympics coming in 2 years, a new government who seem to recognise economic reality, this really is a time to relaunch a fresh, vibrant BA to again show the world what we CAN do and take a top position in world air transport and return to profitability. The opportunity is here let it not be wasted.

.....and who cares if the strikers finish up stacking shelves at Aldi (doubt if Tesco would employ them !) if they lose their jobs it is entirely of their own making.

So come on Willy, sack them all ASAP, and rebuild BA as we knew it.

I, too, am backing BA, as a shareholder and with my cheque book, SYD-LHR next Saturday in Club, again, should be interesting !

PS Whilst figures have been released, or the media have reported, about the direct cost to BA of this IR DURING the strike periods I dread to think about the cost to future bookings or the degradation of the BA brand image.

Time for serious action before ITS TOO LATE !
I understand your backing for BA as a shareholder. However, your thinking that Tesco is any better than Aldi when both are Chav city is way off the beam. Perhaps it also shows the divide of opinion on the strike is dependent on ones perception of where one sits in society........Discuss!!:E

[Mr Optimistic]

..every time the strike is on BBC news: no point being misinformed ! However, is this strike still about 'imposition' ? Haven't heard the word for a while.

[RetiredBA/BY]

You must be a striker/sympathiser if you did not understand the comparison !

Tesco, UK largest retailer with 4000 plus outlets and FY 2009 profits, 3bn, greater than BA.s share capitalisation, (2.7Bn today) a chunk of the drop in that valuation due to striker's (in)action.

Aldi, 400 UK outlets, profit not known but probably WAY less than Tesco. Aldi is a well run business filling a niche market BUT not in the same league as Tesco.

Chav city for Tesco, its financial performance suggests otherwise !

[Diplome]

Tony Woodley has just announced that a new ballot for further strike action will take place shortly.

Unite's Tony Woodley Warns BA Of 'Needless' Summer Strikes By Cabin Crew With A New Vote Due Soon | UK News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Unites-Tony-Woodley-Warns-BA-Of-Needless-Summer-Strikes-By-Cabin-Crew-With-A-New-Vote-Due-Soon/Article/201005415640907?lpos=UK_News_First_Buisness_Article_Teaser_R egion_0&lid=ARTICLE_15640907_Unites_Tony_Woodley_Warns_BA_Of_Needles s_Summer_Strikes_By_Cabin_Crew_With_A_New_Vote_Due_Soon)