BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions

[binsleepen]

Hotel Tango.

Please remember that the 48% refers only to LHR. If you include the 100% of flights operating from LCY and LGW the total flights cancelled will only be in the high 20s or low 30s. I suspect many customer who were due to fly to destinations also served by LCY and LGW many have transfered to those departure points.

Regards

[Diplome]

baggersup:

Thank you for the link.

I was rather astounded that someone actually questioned McLuskey about more cabin crew reporting for duty.

And you're right, it was heartening to see the difference between last week and this re. planes in the air.

[Final 3 Greens]

£7M loss, per day, is clearly a blow to British Airways, as it could well use that money for more positive uses.

There is a also horrendous brand damage, particularly abroad.

But I can't see how the union can claim victory if the operation continues.

If the union announces more strikes, I fear for the airline in the short term, as it will polarise the cabin crew even more (making post strike relationships difficult), bleed the company of money that is needed for other things and get more people into the habit of booking with alternative carriers.

On the other hand, I also believe that a compromise would be a disaster, as the airline does need to be allowed to manage it's business (lawfully) in a world very different to the days it emegerged from the union of BEA/BOAC.

From a negotiating perspective, it is now difficult as positions appear to be dominating, as opposed to interests.

When interests are the driver, it is often possible to manouevre into a position that resolves the matter.

On the other hand, positions are like trenches.

So we will see what happens.

[Hotel Tango]

I see that the BA managers are very active with their spin on this site. :) Look guys, I don't fly BA and frankly I don't care a hoot about their future one way or the other. For that reason I can see through all the spin that some of you (pro BA management) produce. Even if it's LHR only, 48% is still a sizeable disruption for an airline of BA's size. Period.

[Lou Scannon]

On the "other" page BASSA are reported to be telling members not to publish what was in their pay packet last month.

What are they trying to cover up? How much they really earn compared with the £11,000 mentioned in the interview or how much their members are losing by striking?

[TightSlot]

Do Not, I repeat, Do Not - be tempted to go down the path of accusing other users of being Managers/Reps on either side.

This is an anonymous forum - the truth is that you have absolutely no idea of who people are, and can prove nothing. Accusations such as these waste our time and your bandwidth and serve no purpose except to raise the temperature needlessly.

Further such posts will result in sanctions being taken against the user making the accusation.

[ExecClubPax]

I don't think its a fair measure to consider the number of aircraft flights departing or cancelled. The important indicator is the number of booked passengers flown. With consolidation of flights on larger aircraft, it may well seem like there are less actual operations. Best wait until BA issues its customers flown analysis which has to be a fair reflection for fear of misleading markets.

This brings me on to an issue so many seem to have overlooked. The Union gloats about the number of services disrupted not caring that this equates to the plans and dreams of ordinary people destroyed. From the customers point of view, BA as a company appears to be doing all it can to maintain services or rebook customers on other airlines. On the other hand, the other party is trying to prevent them. Is it any wonder the Union lacks support from the public?

[binsleepen]

Hotel Tango,

I am definitely not a BA manager and I am not employed by BA (As Tightslot will confirm as he banned me from the CC site :{) However I am in the airline business and I do hope to be employed by BA once this dispute is over and the airline can look to the future not worry about the past.

If you are as neutral as you make out then you have to take into account all BA bases as UNITE would have originally wanted to ground all BA aircraft.

Regards

[Snas]

When it comes to arguing about percentages of flights flown the jury may still be out.

However when it comes to press releases, which the press happily copy and paste more or less verbatim, BASSA/Unite are the clear winners. They come out thick and fast containing lots of words such as “estimate” or “believe”.

Bassa – Link (http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/latest_news/cost-cutting_goes_into_reverse.aspx)
(Some proof reading wouldn’t go amiss though – “In contrast, in a normal working day a BA cabin crew member with five year's experience would earn only £15,000 or £16 per hour.” [my bold] I know what they are trying to say but that doesn’t read very well.

Telegraph (& others) - Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/7533989/British-Airways-paying-pilots-166-an-hour-to-cover-strike.html)

[plane speak]

All departures from LGW and LCY are planned to operate today.

Including these flights in the statistics gives the following picture for those that want it.

Monday 29 March BA DEPARTURES from HEATHROW, GATWICK, & LONDON CITY
(Excludes codeshares; Includes leased aircraft)
analysis based on BA.Com flight departures

Longhaul

61 73% Planned to operate
23 27% Cancelled

Shorthaul

177 61% Planned to operate
111 39% Cancelled

Total

238 64% Planned to operate
134 36% Cancelled

[SamYeager]

“In contrast, in a normal working day a BA cabin crew member with five year's experience would earn only £15,000 or £16 per hour.” :confused: This seems to work out at around 18 hours per week. Do BA cabin crew really only work less than a 1,000 hours a year?

[Hotel Tango]

Sorry TIGHTSLOT, it was tongue-in-cheek honestly (hence the smilie).

I'll leave you all to it. Have fun.

[Airclues]

If BA and BASSA werre to negotiate a settlement which produced anything less than the original cost savings demanded, then the costs to BA would be far greater than simply replacing the crewmember on the 747.
All of the unions in BA were given cost cutting targets, and all of them, apart from BASSA, negotiated settlements. However, all of the settlements contained a clause which stated that the aggreement would be void unless all staff groups achieved their cost saving targets.

[Diplome]

Actually, when this drama is over (and I don't mean to trivialize what is a very serious situation for many) I would actually pay to listen to a BA Manager discuss how they approached operations during this time.

I have an idea that it would be informative in the extreme.

[Diplome]

Snas:

Regarding your comment:


However when it comes to press releases, which the press happily copy and paste more or less verbatim, BASSA/Unite are the clear winners. They come out thick and fast containing lots of words such as “estimate” or “believe”.



I am in agreement that Unite/BASSA definitely are getting the majority of the sound bite time...but after some thought, I believe there may be a reason for BA's careful and selective communications.

As I understand the process (and anyone here please feel free to correct me if I am misinformed) in order for BA to call for new contracts there is not only a time restriction but BA must also show a good faith effort was made to negotiate. Obviously, there hasn't been much of that happening lately be either side.

If BA offers to come back to the table it certainly will want to enter the room from a position of strength.

So you hold your cards, issuing factual communications regarding flight status, passengers flown, staffing attendance, loss of Staff Travel, loss of pay, etc., and you concentrate on keeping as many passengers flying as possible, hopefully increasing flights as the strike dates continue.

Striking staff are left to ponder their choices realizing that the personal impact of the strike is much greater than one or two days pay, there are much bigger numbers at play.

BA and the majority of its employees hope the result is more and more cabin crew reporting for service.

...and when you hit the 70-80% of Cabin Crew reporting as scheduled you are ready to talk, to both the Press and the Union.

BA would be in a position to meet the requirement of good faith efforts to settle the dispute, but they will be facing a Union that knows it does not have the backing of a significant majority of its members.

Unite/BASSA must negotiate reasonably because they are facing a deadline knowing that if an agreement, any agreement, isn't reached their entire house of cards comes down.

Not a bad approach.

..though BA could just be disorganized in the PR department. :)

[call100]

That video 'chat' between WW and a passenger was so obviously set up by the Channel 4 crew. The chap must have been practising that question, given to him by the reporter, for ages!!!
Both sides need to get back to ACAS and sit down and talk. WW and Unite leadership need to let their negotiating teams negotiate without interference (that's where the problem is) and get everyone back to work.
So much misinformation is being spread that the real picture has long disappeared.

[Diplome]

Call100:

Well, if it was a set up it certainly was a positive one.

Could be wrong but I don't see a back to the table moment until after this latest strike...and then a few days for it all to sink in on the remaining cabin crew.

[Ancient Observer]

Mr. Len (I was never a "member" of Militant Tendency) McWhatever likes this strike as it gives him free publicity in his campaign to become GenSec of Unite. (In a Union as big as Unite, most of the voters have never heard of the candidates - any publicity is good publicity).

However, has he EVER commented about the impact this strike has on ordinary working people who have saved for years to have thier holidays ruined by an ambitious Trotskyite?

Ordinary working people. - Passengers. Does he care?

[Diplome]

Unite is going to impose a levy on their members to support the cabin crew strike?

Will be interesting to see these details....but a definite negative for the Union.

[Global Warrior]

and when you hit the 70-80% of Cabin Crew reporting as scheduled you are ready to talk, to both the Press and the Union.

BA would be in a position to meet the requirement of good faith efforts to settle the dispute, but they will be facing a Union that knows it does not have the backing of a significant majority of its members.

Unite/BASSA must negotiate reasonably because they are facing a deadline knowing that if an agreement, any agreement, isn't reached their entire house of cards comes down.


WW needs cost savings. Probably, when the dust has settled, he will table the same offer as he did just before the morons announced the strike dates BUT im sure he will exclude ST for the strikers and announce some redundancies. I suspect that now there has been a strike, many are expecting CR's. By the sounds of it, if its the militants that go....... BA will be a much happier place to work and the union will be much weaker as well.

[OrryFace]

The simple truth is this:
Right now both sides have nothing to more to lose by staying as they are. And by continuing with the action they will each think they get a little bit stronger.
CC = look how long we can stick this out, and whatever the true numbers, the airline is unable to operate 100%
BA = we can cherry pick to operate the profitable routes, crew the less profitable ones at lower cost with wet lease and just wait it out as more and more CC drip feed back to work.

Finally, neither side is going to get much oxygen of publicity once the raillway guys come out. That affects far more people.

I give it another month at least. Any bets beyond that?:ugh:

[TruBlu123]

Over on the other site I see a post claiming Unite are going to raise £700,000 to support the CC strikers! Anyone got more on this development.
I'm becoming more and more convinced by the day that we are heading for an Armageddon like situ in mid June. With any luck the small percentage who make up the well poisoners on the CC side will be out on their proverbial ear at that point.
That said it is going to be a long haul (apologies for the unintended pun) for all concerned.
Think of all the man hours being diverted from the day to day running of the business being taken up by this completely unneccessary dispute.

[Diplome]

TruBlu:

I have this link courtesy of ian001 from another thread which is not absolutely current, but interesting nonetheless:

http://www.unitetheunion.com/pdf/002-Statement%20to%20Members_final-2009-08-13.pdf

I have heard of members already being upset with this.

Surely BASSA members must be wondering what they are paying dues for if they need to do this after only, what is it, 5 or 6 days, and you don't have that many individuals who have actually been labled as on strike.

Incredible. Especially considering the way these Union reps can spend.

[spock33]

Welcome back, we've missed you. You've obviously been on a LOOONG vacation.

Re the above; t certainly is looking like a war of attrition, a bit like the miners' strike unfortunately. Commercially there can only be one winner but the casualties along the way are going to be very distressing. Maybe common sense will breakout before it's too late.

[Global Warrior]

If so many of the cc are happy to return to work, it wont really matter what the UNITE reps want. By the sounds of it most cc are really peeved at UNITE anyway due to the fact that the last offer tabled by WW was never put to them for them to vote on. WW will have severely weakened the influence of UNITE and BA will be a much better airline for it.

[TruBlu123]

BBC R2 at 1600: Unite is to take the unprecedented action of levying all members of the TU in support of BA CC. Wow, I wonder how the ex Amicus guys who maintain to a very high standard BA's aircraft are going to react to that given what happened last week. If I was them I would say every so politely "no thanks brothers and sisters".

[west lakes]

I suspect that a lot of Unite members in other industries will also be unimpressed. Especially bearing in mind that in some there are alternate unions to join.

Sorry but if Unite did not have the funds they should not have gone down ths road and called a strike.

[Ancient Observer]

Unite steps up financial support for BA cabin crew - £700,000 to be raised for fight against cuts

29 March 2010
Unite, the union for BA cabin crew, has announced today (Monday) that it will raise £700,000 from Unite's branches to support cabin crew in their fight to protect standards and jobs at the airline.
The news comes as the cabin crew take their sixth day of industrial action. The funds will be in addition to the money the union is paying to crew in strike pay.
Tony Woodley, Unite joint general secretary said: "This is an unprecedented move and it shows that Unite is absolutely determined to give our members all the support they deserve in winning this battle against the BA bullies.
"We continue to search for a decent settlement in this dispute but cabin crew are not going to be driven back to work for lack of resources."
The proposal was agreed today (Monday) by the General Executive of Unite. A mandatory 2 percent levy will be placed on Unite's branches for the next quarter to support the strikers.

[R Knee]

So at £30 day they can afford another 23,333 cabin crew strike days.

I wonder how many weeks that translates to?

[jetset lady]

Ordinary working people. - Passengers. Does he care?


Sorry to break this to you AO, but Len McClusky doesn't give even a damn about the cabin crew he's supposed to be representing, let alone the passengers. We are all just stepping stones for him to clamber up as he makes his way to the top.


Tony Woodley, Unite joint general secretary said: "This is an unprecedented move and it shows that Unite is absolutely determined to give our members all the support they deserve in winning this battle against the BA bullies.



Or should that read..."This is an unprecedented move and it shows that Unite has got it's sums wrong again...."

We're only on day 6 for heavens sake! :rolleyes:

[Ancient Observer]

Members of the AUEW and EETPU never wanted to be a part of Unite. However, their Finances meant that they had to.

I'm sure that hard-pressed fitters mates (and their partners) from Darlington, and on short time, will be delighted to pay for the Audi TTs and personal products for the BA Cabin Crew. One simply has to keep up appearances, you know!!

[Diplome]

Amazing when you consider that Unite had £178 million in assets at the end of 2008 and has had an incredible amount of time to fund this action.

Individuals pay dues just so that they have these resources ready to go during these times.

From The Independent:


Joint leader Tony Woodley said the move was "unprecedented" and would raise £700,000, which will go on strike pay and other ways of supporting union members involved in the dispute.


If I was a Unite member I'd be really interested in not only exactly why these funds are required, but how they are going to be spent. I simply find it unfair that they are taking money from workers due to their poor planning.

[Ancient Observer]

JSL

Yup, I know, I should have excluded lgw from that!

..........and Pirate's Life for you!

[Papillon]

Presumably they didn't budget for BA refusing to pay for the whole period of a roster, rather than just the individual strike days.

[spock33]

New BA statement:


Quote:
PROFIT OUTLOOK REMAINS UNCHANG ED

Contingency plans for the second period of industrial action. have again been very successful.

Over the first two days (March 27 and 28) the airline operated 308 or 83 per cent of its longhaul programme (273 or 78 per cent last weekend) and 623 or 67 per cent of its shorthaul programme (442 or 50 per cent last weekend). Total number of passenger flights increased 30 per cent from 715 to 931. Seat factors continued to be strong at 75 per cent in longhaul and 64 per cent in shorthaul. In addition the airline operated 61 positioning flights to carry cargo and return passengers home with minimum disruption, nine less than last weekend. Wet lease aircraft decreased from 22 to 11 (costing approximately £495,000 for the last two days) as we operated a larger number of our own aircraft. We operated 100 per cent of our normal schedule at Gatwick.

Over this busy Easter holiday air travel weekend, we flew 118,575 passengers, an increase of 37 per cent over the 86,262 carried last weekend.

This strong and improved operational performance made possible by dedicated BA colleagues has further reduced the impact of the disruption. The estimate is a daily impact of £5.5 million for each day this weekend. Any change to the cost impact for the remaining two days of industrial action will be announced later in the week if required.

Earnings expectations for the year ended March 31, 2010 continue broadly unchanged.

Looks like BA are surging ahead, with or without Unite.

[TruBlu123]

They are either digging in for a long battle OR they wish to avoid impacting on what they have squirreled away to help the government fund its election campaign.

[POHL]

Even with the most optimistic spin Unite can only pay 2 days strike pay for the alleged 11600+ strikers.
Clearly there is not that many strikers hence more in the pot for later 'distribution', to, possibly the Labour Party if they behave?
I am betting there will be significant union resignations after yet another risible foot shooting exercise by McClusky. The man surely has ensured his own demise?
Word has it more Cabin Crew have reported today and relationships engendered on board aircraft with volunteers, cabin crew, pilots and passengers are very positive.
Extrapolating the arithmetic above perhaps the last striker standing will be paid big time when the nonsense concludes!

[Lou Scannon]

Let's see if I have this correct:

Millions of Unite members, most of them earning a fraction of a BA CSD's pay and with no travel or any other perks, are going to have to pay a 2% levy on their subscriptions to subsidize these CSD's so that they can continue to wreck the jobs of around 40,000 fellow employees at BA rather than do a little extra work.

Unite leaders scream at Walsh for "Imposing changes without consultation". Can we therefore take it that the 2% will not be imposed and that the workers will have to opt in rather than opt out.

...or is it different for the Union when they work out that their credibility is now dropping to zero?

[MPN11]

Lou Scannon - that is a nice summary.

Of course the members will be consulted, and a democratic vote taken before this happens, because as far as Unite is concerned, "Negotiation" is our middle name. All fair and above board, and loads of verifiable FACTS, that sort of thing. :ugh:

[Nicholas49]

The press have been reporting that BA pilots have been volunteering to work as cabin crew. Can I ask a couple of questions about this?

1) pilots have more stringent flight time limitations than cabin crew, so if some pilots are indeed working in the cabin, does this not disrupt their flying schedules and calculated rest periods etc.?

2) perhaps a slightly sensitive subject, but having read comments on this website, I think it is fair to say that some pilots believe they are 'above' working as cabin crew, if that is tactful way of putting it. There was a report on the BBC News website of a BA captain serving drinks in the cabin on a trans-atlantic flight. What do others think of this?

3) are pilots trained to carry out the duties of cabin crew? I do not mean serving drinks, I was thinking instead of being qualified to do the safety demonstration; co-ordinate an emergeny evacuation from the cabin rather than FD etc.

4) what uniform do you wear? Again, I find it hard to believe a BA captain would wear a male flight attendant's uniform. Am I wrong?

Interested to hear your thoughts.
Nick

[Emm4]

Todays' Times is reporting possible additional strikes dates from April 14th. The kids go back to school on the 19th so a lot of families travelling back from Easter holidays could be made to suffer. Not an indication of a trade union concerned about the impact of the strike on the public, or has its desperation reached a new level?

I am curious how strike dates are chosen. Presumably by the leaders but without consultation with the members.

[MPN11]

Other will undoubtedly chip in, but basically:

Safety training is all part of the flight crew's training, so that's easy.

Scheduling is an art form - flight crew will fit in CC work as appropriate under the regulations.

A pilot in a dress is a beautiful sight :ok:

[Andy_S]

having read comments on this website, I think it is fair to say that some pilots believe they are 'above' working as cabin crew

I think some cabin crew believe they are 'above' working as cabin crew!!

[cym]

Some may, but acknowledge the fact that many are and assisting BA in maintaining a very robust service under the circumstances

CC reporting numbers increase day by day, and I feel, as ex crew will continue to do so

Unite are in face saving mode - shame they didnt think through their actions before their macho attitude took hold. Irony is that I am certain that the proposed levy will see their overall number of members shrink even further - not least the non CC BA members that must feel that they are having their faces rubbed in the salt just to allow Tony and Loony Len to save face

[MPN11]

Andy S - It would be a great shame if this thread turned towards disrespecting BA CC. The majority are good people, doing a good job. There are undoubtedly some, as in any other workplace, who either have an over-inflated idea of their self-importance or who are simply fixated by Trades Union mentality.

My view on BA CC has shifted dramatically over the last few months,. Please don't let the majority suffer for the sins of the few.

[Diplome]

First to Ian100, I don't believe I thanked you for your previous link regarding Unite's financial statement. It was an interesting read.

spock33: Thank you for this post. I remain impressed, even taking a clinical view, at BA's ability to cope with this situation. Some very qualified minds went into not only setting the goals, but achieving them.

Lou Scannon: Excellent

Nicholas49: I met my husband when he was a Senior Captain in the U.S. Navy. Never underestimate the power of a man in uniform.

..and Andy_S, you receive my vote for comment of the day. My screen nearly had a dose of white wine, with ice. :)

[Ten West]

1) pilots have more stringent flight time limitations than cabin crew, so if some pilots are indeed working in the cabin, does this not disrupt their flying schedules and calculated rest periods etc.?

It shouldn't be a problem. The rest period for pilots needs to be 12 hours or as long as the preceding duty, whichever is the greater.

If "Untie" start asking me for money to support these clowns they can (to paraphrase LaLa Malone) "Foxtrot (ROMEO) Oscar!"

I'm already at the point of cancelling my membership in the light of having seen Untie in action. I'm not sure I want to rely on these dinosaurs in the event of my having to call on their services. :confused:

[wiggy]

Q1)"Pilots have more stringent flight time limitations than cabin crew, so if some pilots are indeed working in the cabin, does this not disrupt their flying schedules and calculated rest periods etc.?"

Answer: In the main the pilots working in the Cabin are off the fleets BA was planning to stand down on strike days..in the main off the Airbus or 747, therefore they are working in the Cabin instead of on the Flight Deck, so there's no conflict of Duty hours.

Q2) "perhaps a slightly sensitive subject, but having read comments on this website, I think it is fair to say that some pilots believe they are 'above' working as cabin crew, if that is tactful way of putting it. There was a report on the BBC News website of a BA captain serving drinks in the cabin on a trans-atlantic flight. What do others think of this?"

Answer: Not sure why anyone thinks this, I've not met any pilot who believes they are above working in the Cabin, and if anyone did have issues with doing this it's simple - don't volunteer.


Q3) "are pilots trained to carry out the duties of cabin crew? I do not mean serving drinks, I was thinking instead of being qualified to do the safety demonstration; co-ordinate an emergeny evacuation from the cabin rather than FD etc."

Answer: We all undergo routine training in safety procedures every year and the volunteers have had enhanced training for things such as the safety demo. over the last few weeks.

Q4) "what uniform do you wear? Again, I find it hard to believe a BA captain would wear a male flight attendant's uniform. Am I wrong"

Answer: The pilots working in the Cabin are wearing normal uniform minus their rank slides....

[wascrew]

Interesting

BA say the cost of the strikes so far are £50m

Unite says it is £100m

As BA/WW/BF told the unions that in any future deal the cost of the strike action would be added to the savings originally asked for.......

Is this bragging on the cost wise??????

[Dawdler]

If "Untie" start asking me for money to support these clowns they can (to paraphrase LaLa Malone) "Foxtrot (ROMEO) Oscar!"You may not get asked. As I understand it the "Branch" will be asked to cough from their own funds. I guess they may or may not levy their members to recover the money.

[MPN11]

From the CC Thread
I imagine whatever the result of this dispute, there are going to be some major changes in how Unite and BA do business.

Where can I claim for a new keyboard?

[Ten West]

That's interesting. I shall keep an eye on the post for the announcement of a subs increase. :ok:

They'll get a resignation letter and a direct debit cancellation by return.

[cym]

That being the case would the branch offer its members a free vote as to their wishes in paying or with holding the levy?

Its called demorcracy

[Diplome]

cym:

It seems that "imposition" is only a dirty word when you are not the one doing the imposing. :)

[beerdrinker]

Does anybody know whether the Bassa Council members (LaLa and the Kitchen Fitter and their mates) have been rostered for work during the two strikes and have dutifully not turned up and are now liable for sanctions?

Did they lead from the front?

[cym]

I am sure the 'imposition' question will be one raised by the media should no vote on the topic be allowed...........

[cym]

That being the case, if you're unfit to work then that applies to any function? Be that CSD or Union Official? In that case I presume that she is not claiming any money from BASSA.

A dodgy foot is a dodgy foot and I would be disgusted is she was claiming members funds at anything more than £30 per day if the above reasoning can be shown to lack logic and a sense of fair play

[Ten West]

Leading from the rear, so I gather from the other thread. :rolleyes:

[Diplome]

Anyone else watching bacabincrew's posturing on the other board.

He/she seems quite capable of dropping little tidbits but responding to a specific request for an opinion or reaction to a negative is quite beyond his/her cabilities.

I totally understand, and agree, with the moderators decision to close down that thread for the time being to just active serving crew. It has definitely cleared, during a rather difficult period, much of the more coarse commentary, but my goodness, he/she represents such a fun opportunity for engagement regarding facts.

While diversity of opinion is definitely a plus, I don't believe in soft-pedaling comments to an individual who cannot respond with substance just because they represent a different viewpoint.

Represent your viewpoint, but please, do it with some substance.

[Ten West]

That guy's great, isn't he?

For anyone who missed it (It may have been moderated by now)

A BA pilot just remarked what a breath of fresh air it was to work with keen cabin crew colleagues without the oppressive hand of BASSA bearing down on them. He further expressed the quite reasonable opinion that the company would be a much nicer place in which to work if the militants stayed away for good.

Our hero replied that said pilots' posting was "Quite disgusting and intimidatory" :confused:

[west lakes]

Having followed all the threads, the apparent number of posters that purport to support Unite with their one liners is fantastic.
That they seem unable to actually answer questions or express an opinion suggests, to me anyway, that they actually know less about the dispute than folk who have taken the time to read up on here.

[MPN11]

It is a highly emotionally charged time for everyone - whether they be passengers, BA crew [front and back or on the ground] or the suffering Moderators.

Facts are useful, opinions are less useful.
As this saga unfolds, I actually read less.

[cym]

I have great respect for both Tightslot and Flaps40 and am sure they are keeping a very close eye on the CC tread.

btw - I do feel that we owe both a huge 'thank you' - they are doing doing a brilliant job under very tryng circumstances, and then they go to work.

Anyone else join me in raising a glass to them both?

[Ten West]

I'm pleased that the thread's been restricted to current crew too. It was good move.

I've followed this entire saga since early last year as I book BA flights regularly and like to know what's going on.

My impression is that the original reasons for the dispute are now lost in the mists of time and that no-one really knows why they're on strike anymore. Or more importantly, how they think they're going to resolve this.

I still find it very sad that so many hard-working and decent crew members even now are unable or unwilling to see that they are simply being used as fodder in a Union's internal power struggle.

[Diplome]

Westlakes:

I would tend to disagree with you. I do not underestimate bacabincrews' ability to analyze information. He is not like other individuals who simply repeat messages ad nauseum.

He/she does, however, know how to play a room.

If I post something that is inaccurate I am more than willing to be called out for it, though I try to have facts and figures to support my representations.

Each of us, for the most part, are able to recognize the parts of the adventure that are black and white, and also recognize the grey.

Those that don't wish to engage outside of their "message" comfort zone are interesting to observe.

[west lakes]

Anyone else join me in raising a glass to them both?You forgot the third mod on that site Flyblue.

But yes

Diplome

Fair point. The "famed" WWW was also good at the one liner used to divert the threads in different directions.

[Ten West]

he's gone very quiet lately though, hasn't he? :hmm:

[Diplome]

Ten West:

Regarding this comment:

I still find it very sad that so many hard-working and decent crew members even now are unable or unwilling to see that they are simply being used as fodder in a Union's internal power struggle.

I never underestimate the personal pain that many Cabin Crew are experiencing through this time.

It is a hard thing to know, after having your emotions escalated time and time again with "Its us and them" messages, that perhaps it wasn't so. What does one do when they have channelled their energy and thoughts into one direction when doubt is placed. Its a difficult place to be in.

The experiences being had by Cabin Crew and Flight Crew on flights at this time is a perfect example. Flight Crew are, in my opinion, doing everything they can do to enable the Cabin Crew to have a positive future. They are not the enemy...they are advocates.

Change is hard when all you're hearing is the screaming over the loudspeaker.

[Ten West]

It is a hard thing to know, after having your emotions escalated time and time again with "Its us and them" messages, that perhaps it wasn't so. What does one do when they have channelled their energy and thoughts into one direction when doubt is placed?

They do what any right-minded individual does. Realise they've been had, and salvage what they can for themselves and their future. Fortunately, many of them it seems are no longer held under the BASSA spell, and are returning to work for the company that pays their wages.
One good thing that looks likely to come out of all this though is the increased spirit of camaraderie and the breaking down of the "Them and us" barrier between pilots and cabin crew. :ok:

[Diplome]

cym:

Of course I'll join you in the toast...Pinot Grigio..with ice :)

[ExXB]

Ten West They'll get a resignation letter and a direct debit cancellation by return.
From what I read they will raise 700,000 from 2 million members. That would be 35p each. Your stamp for your letter would be more (I think). I don't think too many would do the same as you.

(Don't get me wrong, I think Unite/Bassa are creating a lot of damage for no apparent reason outside internal politics - This strike is stupid [Hope I'm allowed to say that])

[Diplome]

West Lakes:

Ah yes, WWW, I recall him fondly.

I actually got a kick out of his posts. I imagined someone nonchalantly having a fruity, sticky sweet cocktail, mulling over exactly what one liner post they could submit that would spin up the room...drafting, changing a word here or there..Ooops that's not quite right, Ah...perfect.

Punching "send" , taking a sip of your drink, and watch the reaction.

You almost have to admire that sort of art :) At least I did.

[vanHorck]

Asti Spumante for the Mods, together with the sunshine of Italy. Well done!!!

On another matter, the following post appeared on the CC thread:

"A part of me really hopes the malignant Bassa militants never return, as they have such a corrosive effect on the workplace."

Now, now - don't get personal you know the forum rules

In fact that post is quite disgusting and intimidatory

Without wanting to put anyone down (Mods please remove if considered too agressive), I too have been thinking that BA would do well by getting rid of the militants, because i do not think being militant could ever be combined with enjoying to serve people, being hospitable, making people feel welcome as a job. To me these are two different and irreconcilable mindsets.

In my mind someone who is militant has long given up on the belief that the above work content matters, and that the only thing that matters is getting as much pay for as long as possible

Am I wrong i this?

[TightSlot]

Thanks from all of us - much appreciated

[west lakes]

Talisker for me




(which 2 of you will get!)

[Ten West]

Thank you, Mods, for having this thread allowing us carry on our discussions on the sidelines. That's much appreciated too! :ok:

From what I read they will raise 700,000 from 2 million members. That would be 35p each. Your stamp for your letter would be more (I think). I don't think too many would do the same as you.

I can understand that. To be completely honest though I'd think the same way whether it was 35p or £35.
The union, to prove a point, is seeking to preserve the outdated terms and conditions of a very tiny minority of BA crew at the expense of everyone else in the company, from pilots to engineers and on downwards. They're risking these people's jobs to do it too. It's not on.

Personally, I'd volunteer to be ****ed with the wrong end of a pineapple before I'd volunteer to hand over one penny of my hard-earned when it's being requested for a "Fighting fund" to allow a handful of people to trough it up and maintain their lifestyles at the expense of the many.

Rant over! ;)

[Diplome]

vanHorck:

First, Asti Spumante?? I'm sensing more of a single-malt preference :)

What may arise out of this engagement is the realization, as much as BASSA have tried to deny, that Flight Crew and Cabin Crew can be partners. They are not at odds with each other, each of them want the best possible result for their airline and their respective professional communities.

If BA is successful the militants will have no choice. They will have to buy in to a more positive and progressive approach, or die on the vine.

[manintheback]

A sign of the times is how fast its falling off the news pages (clearly good for BA) in the internet world and 24 hour news coverage

Also will UNITE/Bassa and other Unions learn that you need a strategy, plan for the end-game and plan for an exit if it aint going your way. They are coming very close to the point where the next strike will be seen as just boring and completely ignored. And there is nothing worse than being ignored.

[Ten West]

Sorry, did you say something? ;)

[JackMcHammocklashing]

Not just the current BA strike,but all others

BA currently it has cost them £42M or 2800 staff salaries?

They could have left the flights fully crewed without dropping one member of staff (to save money) and be better off?

The same with the recent HMRC strike
I find this bit amazing

They have been revealed as call centre staff not picking up 50% of the calls made
The reaction to improve this is to dismiss and not replace 2000 staff?

They have over four years checked what is called face to face interviews and as a result of the past four years have decided to cut 54 offices due to lack of use Yet only last month started a scheme where 20% of applicants now have to attend a face to face interview

Yes if BA said, as of tomorrow there will be one less staff on each flight
(that would save money) but to lose £42m( 2800 staffs annual income) becomes a nonsence, indeed they could have increased the staffing by one for years

I have posted legal information on another forum and as such remain Neutral

On the other hand IF I do not get to my destination shortly I stand to lose £7k as a no show own fault all lost (I saved for years for this I do not have the time nor the money left to change it ) OK I could borrow money to change travel arrangment and save the loss, Then I am in debt which I would not be able to pay

(Reasons, I have saved for my retirement cruise of a lifetime, paid in full and too late to cancel, now with a state pension would not be able to afford to pay back a loan for alternate travel arrangements even if I COULD get a loan, work fifty years and lose all :-(

Jack McH

[Papillon]

They could have left the flights fully crewed without dropping one member of staff (to save money) and be better off?

No. That saving would be annual. Think what it means over a decade. In any case, the response to any saving would be to threaten to strike and cost more than the saving - if management (in any company) cave in, then it's bankruptcy round the corner.

[JackMcHammocklashing]

I do not have the information of how many WW planes are available though I am sure it is not 2800 (I really have no idea)
So if it were only 280 WW planes that would be ten years! of an extra flight attendant per flight ?

No extra attendant and it would be just £4.2m a year extra profit


Jack McH

[Diplome]

Ten-West:

:D

I'm going to be smiling over that one for awhile.

[JackMcHammocklashing]

Moderator

Whilst I admit I broke the rules
(Permanent ban)
I posted neutrally vital information to staff on the bassa thread

I openly stated I was not staff nor a member of an airline

I stated openly that I was neutral and was not allowed to state an opinion legally

I posted legal information that was vital to ALL BA Staff

I stated that I was not encouraging staff NOT to strike

I posted government FACTS that would enable staff not to get into SERIOUS DEBT striking or not I was neutral

The link I posted was as you can see genuine truth

Staff would not be paid child care or working tax as classed as unemployed
Now some of your ladies(and guys) may go ahead and pay £1200 child care not knowing that the GOV will no longer pay it this month and they would have to re-apply

Yes I broke your rules posting as a non staff member, but the information was true and vital, to some poor soul who is now going to pay £1200 for child care and find that there are no funds in their account to pay it incurring bank charges and in debt of £1200 to boot

I have NEVER posted anything else other than truthful help to your members

I have posted and stated non airline staff other Government information that has been and still is available

This draws the conclusion that YOU Moderator are not neutral yourself and wish to cause damage to some staff (OR you are a different moderator to the rest Yes I broke the rules though for a good enough reason)

Again I stated I WAS NOT CC OR EVEN AIRLINE STAFF but posted vital information to your friends and family NOT to encourage NOT to strike but to make them AWARE, to save them from finacial damage if they so wished,

So be it I tried

Regards NOT CC NOT AIRLINE STAFF

Jack McHammocklashing

[BadgerGrowler]

I don't know if this has been pointed out at all...

On one of the news programmes, they interviewed a cabin crew member, who basically said that she "found it difficult to survive" on the basic pay, but also in the same screen shot is another Unite member holding a banner saying "WE OFFERED A PAYCUT".

From an outsiders point of view, it doesn't look like everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet on the Unite front? :confused:

[Ten West]

It's difficult to take their claims seriously when they're obviously having such a jolly time of it on their picket lines. :bored:

This draws the conclusion that YOU Moderator are not neutral yourself and wish to cause damage to some staff

Steady on there, friend! Jack, if you'd seen the bile and vitriol that's been vented on that thread by all and sundry in the past, you'd understand why the mods have to cull it at regular intervals. To simplify that, they've imposed a rule that it's for current BA employeees only.
There have even been bans for long-serving retired pilots before now, so it's not just them picking on you. If the mods left it to its own devices it would be nothing but an unintelligible stream of insults and emoticons by now.

It's their train set. let's leave them to it to run it as they see fit eh? ;)

[beamender99]

Yesterday I happened to be in the Cranebank area just East of Heathrow.
Twice I saw the Unite battlebus pass by with its upper deck packed with very noisy flag waving crew.

I did hear one vehicle toot its horn.
If this is a simple test of public support then Unite are in deep touble with this dispute.

[Mariner9]

I do not have the information of how many WW planes are available though I am sure it is not 2800 (I really have no idea)
So if it were only 280 WW planes that would be ten years! of an extra flight attendant per flight ?

No extra attendant and it would be just £4.2m a year extra profit

Jack, BA LH aircraft fly every day, often more than 1 flight per day. You cannot just have a single crew for that aircraft - they need some time off! (though don't put ideas into Michael OLeary's head :ok:)

Your numbers quoted above are based upon a single crew for an aircraft. Whereas, I would estimate perhaps 5-6 full crews (or more) are required for each LH aircraft, so you'll need to revise your figures accordingly.

As to your post re the mods, why not post that "vital information" here?

[Diplome]

beamender99:


Yesterday I happened to be in the Cranebank area just East of Heathrow.
Twice I saw the Unite battlebus pass by with its upper deck packed with very noisy flag waving crew.

I did hear one vehicle toot its horn.
If this is a simple test of public support then Unite are in deep touble with this dispute.


I've heard similar reports and also that there were 40 people who participated in their big march. Though its hard to gather public support while wearing t-shirts that show Willie Walsh as Hitler and mens underwear with Mr. Walsh's face on the seat :(

What are their leaders thinking??

Does anyone have the numbers of Cabin Crew reporting for work yesterday?

[beamender99]

I've heard similar reports and also that there were 40 people who participated in their big march.

YouTube - British Airways cabin crew on strike 2010 - march on Bath Road (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qtMaxEE-AI&feature=player_embedded)

[Diplome]

beamender99:

Looks like more than the 40 or 50 that the police estimate was, though certainly not overwhelming.

..and there is that underwear:rolleyes:

Jack:

I agree with Mariner9, just post your information here or on one of the other numerous threads here....or try to start one on strike cost issues.

Your comment:

This draws the conclusion that YOU Moderator are not neutral yourself and wish to cause damage to some staff


...is truly unreasonable. The rules are very clear.

[Ten West]

Hmm. That video certainly does make it very clear just who is doing the "Intimidating" doesn't it? :*

It makes me angry that people are feeling threatened while all they're trying to do is to carry out their jobs.
I wonder how brave some of those shouting "Shame on you - scabbing crew" would be in a one-to-one situation with the targets of their abuse? Not very, is my bet. Like all bullies.

Where's the :wa: emoticon when you need it?

[4t2b]

I was rather relieved to see the subtitle come up on the Bath Road march clip, I had them as chanting "shame on you Cabin Crew" !!!!:O

[Andy_S]

Andy S - It would be a great shame if this thread turned towards disrespecting BA CC. The majority are good people, doing a good job. There are undoubtedly some, as in any other workplace, who either have an over-inflated idea of their self-importance or who are simply fixated by Trades Union mentality.

I totally agree.

My remark was primarily directed at those CSD's who seem to think that pushing a trolley is beneath them, even to the extent that they'll try and bring BA to it's knees rather than suffer such an indignity, but also to those CC who seem to regard the paying passengers as a nuisance that needs to be dealt with as quickly as possible so they can get on with the important business of putting their feet up and nattering. I have the utmost respect for the many professional and hard working BA cabin crew who have got on with the job without complaint.

[Ancient Observer]

If the BA CC that work are called "scabs", what should the strikers be called.

The best I've seen on the BA - only thread is "Sores".

What do you think - come on JSL, GG and Tira - you must be fed up with being called scabs. What would be a humourous term for the strikers?.

[Diplome]

If the BA CC that work are called "scabs", what should the strikers be called.



Unemployed?

(sorry, couldn't help myself :) )

[Skipness One Echo]

I can not get my head around this
Not just the current BA strike,but all others

BA currently it has cost them £42M or 2800 staff salaries?

They could have left the flights fully crewed without dropping one member of staff (to save money) and be better off?

They're taking the long view that the hit now will allow them to re-balance to a more sensible CC cost base and kill off the militant and cancerous Spanish practices that still go in BA but are absent in new start companies. It will allow them to become more competitive. The restrictive practices are what's holding BA back and BASSA will not give up it's power willingly.

Question : How dumb and out of touch with commercial reality would you have to be, to have your CEO's face printed on your (covered) arse and be filmed doing so? Anyone with that mindset ought not to be looking after me on board.

[Landroger]

I didn't hear all of it, but the You and Yours programme was running an item on Industrial Action and BA/BASSA in particular. First up was an LHR CC who, while obviously quite nervous, simply trotted out the BASSA line; 'Imposition - I work Christmas - miss my family - Willie is a bad man etc.' He even said he thought Walsh was 'looking quite unwell'. Only strike breaking crew could tell really - they are the ones who have seen him.

The statement (open letter?) from Walsh to Woodley was quite interesting and seemed to imply that if BASSA put the last 'non offer' to the members, it might be put back in play. There would be a slight distraction while BASSA did so and, if there wasn't too much crowing and mouth music from the Union, Walsh might reactivate the offer and give BASSA a way out. Does anyone see that as a possibility? The sticking point will be Staff Travel and the union might be hung for that as for anything else.

My nephew is a BA FO and has served drinks and pushed trolleys on both weekends. I hear that the atmosphere was brilliant and everyone, including the passengers, had a great time. Seems a shame to spoil it by bringing back those that don't see it that way?

Roger

[Solar]

I have flown over a long time on and off with BA and I would surmise that the standard of CC service has declined somewhat over the years but I think that is life in general these days for whatever reasons. I support the working CC if for no other reason in that I abhorr the bully boy tactics as apparently is being used by certain strikers, I would also like to see BA remain as a viable airline.
I do have a question though that was alluded to in earlier posts and that is that when BA management were fined for their dirty tricks escapades who is it that actually stumps up the money? I would have thought that if the management instigated the crimes then they should be the ones to cough up or is that too simplistic?

Solar

[call100]

If the BA CC that work are called "scabs", what should the strikers be called.

The best I've seen on the BA - only thread is "Sores".

What do you think - come on JSL, GG and Tira - you must be fed up with being called scabs. What would be a humourous term for the strikers?.
There is nothing funny about a strike. If you are complaining about the fact that the working CC are being called 'Scabs' then surely not perpetuating the name calling would be the adult way to go?

[Diplome]

I'm copying this post from the restricted forum because it represents a great attitude and also makes a good point.

From HiFlyer14:

Why do we need an offer back on the table?

Those of us cabin crew that are coming to work have indicated that we are more than happy with the crew complements. We are working well with colleagues from all other departments, we have adapted to quite a lot of changes within our own environment and we have crossed picket lines to make it happen.

BA have made their savings, so why is "an offer" still required? Let the strikers strike. For the first time in my entire career with BA I have seen organisation that is second to none. It has been breathtakingly excellent - from the security, the keeping apart of strikers/non-strikers, booking different hotels, the manning of the flights, re-instating flights at the last minute and getting them crewed and even getting customers to book on the reinstated flights so they don't go empty.

How come? How come BA have suddenly risen from the ashes with such a display of excellence? Because of the people involved. It is us that make BA great. The can-do attitutude, the pulling out all the stops, the "it's no skin off my nose", I'll do whatever I can to help attitude. And of course the fact that BASSA are no longer in the building to prevent that happening.:oh:

So, please don't stress about an offer. We don't actually need one. We are doing just grand as we are. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

It has never felt so good to be part of such a fantastic team and I feel very proud of each and every one of my working colleagues at BA.:D

I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.


HiFlyer14 not only has a wonderful message regarding how productively all staff are working through this time, but also reveals that if the percentages continue to rise, if the returning strikers are shown that their negativity and power are in the minority, then the ball will truly be in Unite's court to finding a solution.

[The SSK]

Two individuals on opposite sides of a dispute like this don't both send open letters to the same newspaper, at the same time, by accident. This exchange is very carefully orchestrated, and given the medium (Mirror) I guess it was Woodley who's carrying the olive branch. Willie is still in the driving seat.

[Mariner9]

I do have a question though that was alluded to in earlier posts and that is that when BA management were fined for their dirty tricks escapades who is it that actually stumps up the money? I would have thought that if the management instigated the crimes then they should be the ones to cough up or is that too simplistic?

The so called dirty tricks resulted in increased profits for BA. The fines were later paid from those profits.

Effectively, all BA management, staff and shareholders benefitted from the increased profits. All BA management, staff and shareholders ultimately paid for the fines.

Though it would appear to an outsider looking in that BASSA somehow believe that their members did not benefit from the profits, but are the only ones paying for the fines.

[Diplome]

SSK:

Are those letters for real??

My impression is that they were just a "what if" sort of presentation.

Now I'll have to go back and read them more carefully.

You are correct, if genuine, it certainly was carefully crafted and by design..but The Mirror??? That seems like an odd receipient of such largesse.

[Papillon]

Virgin did even better in the most recent case: they didn't have to pay any fine...

[mary meagher]

Away back in 1989, flew to the Soviet Union (remember, the name has changed, possibly also the atmosphere) on British Airways.

To witness for 2 weeks the disintegration of the "evil empire", the sense of an oppressive regime tottering to its amazing implosion, the smelly loos, the feeling the KGB was bugging your room, the hordes of the unwashed at the airport, the jobsworth at the checkin points completely unconcerned whether or not our airplane was taking off without us......and then -

To board the British Airways plane. Home at last! Still holding my breath. Would they permit us to leave? We waited to make sure all passengers had made it though the bottlenecks - and then, and then, taxied out, and TOOK OFF! AND THE ENTIRE CONGREGATION BROKE INTO APPLAUSE!

Usually happens only after a turbulent approach and an acceptable landing....

I understand that some of the same spirit is showing this week, that the passengers, the pilots, and the assortment serving as cabin crew display an exceptional appreciation of each other.

If the spirit of teamwork can be sustained, with pilots and cabin crew and volunteers of every description working - and playing - as teams, BA could be great again. Could possibly still feel like coming home when you board.....

[Landroger]

Two individuals on opposite sides of a dispute like this don't both send open letters to the same newspaper, at the same time, by accident. This exchange is very carefully orchestrated, and given the medium (Mirror) I guess it was Woodley who's carrying the olive branch. Willie is still in the driving seat.


I'm not sure that Woodley is exactly waving the white flag here. He pretty much rehashed the union line; 'The company is not listening to crew...'; 'Proud of solidarity .... (!?)'; 'No doubting strength of feeling....'; 'The crew offered (!?) £50M but BA wanted more....' and so on.

Then he got to what was wanted; 'Assurances, not fine words ...(what does that mean?); 'No plum jobs (routes?) to 'cheap staff'....' (not sure what the cheap staff would have to say) and the "Sticking Point"; 'punishment of fine crew defending their rights (or something like that)' ie; Staff Travel. Oh and then he mentioned the possibility of further strikes in a couple of weeks.

Walsh got pretty much to the point and highlighted that the union have not stopped BA .... much. Then, after a few niceties, he pretty much made an offer - I think.


"So I say to you: give your members a voice. Let cabin crew vote on the offer put forward.
It includes a four-year deal on pay - with a freeze in year one and then rises of up to 3% or 4%. Existing crew would stay the bestrewarded in the UK industry. Even though the courts say we do not have to, we have addressed Unite's main demand for more crew on flights.
We would recruit 184 extra staff.
The offer also paves the way for new long-haul opportunities for Gatwick crew, who would like a bigger network and are paid significantly less than their Heathrow colleagues. And it sets out a plan to modernise our industrial relations so we can avoid this kind of damaging dispute in the future."



And then finally, something to the effect that "UNITE and Shop Stewards have been talking for too long - put it to the membership." I know his last sentence was a bit cheesy - "Give peace a chance" - but his letter was far more representative of someone with a plan.

Roger.

[Diplome]

Isn't one of the "fine crew" who was "defending his rights" the one who the pornographic website was registered to?

Yes, that's the sort of fellow I want to put my paycheck on the line for.

[Landroger]

Isn't one of the "fine crew" who was "defending his rights" the one who the pornographic website was registered to?

Yes, that's the sort of fellow I want to put my paycheck on the line for.


Quite. :ugh:

Roger.

[ExecClubPax]

Having seen recent video clips of striking BA cabin crew abusing their working colleagues and using distasteful metaphors to denigrate the company's CEO, I'm not sure I would want to fly with the airline if it takes them back now. I would always wonder what cocktail of bodily fluids had been deposited into my food and drink during a flight by disgruntled and disaffected employees. Seems I’ll have to purchase snacks and drinks in the departure lounge to avoid this possibility for some time to come.

Mr Walsh has been out and about during the disruption and has seen for himself the "One Team" spirit generated by this dispute throughout the working communities. I would hope he and the company's Board think long and hard before welcoming the prodigals back. There can be little doubt without the striker’s corrosive influence the company has racked up its customer service ethos to levels not seen in the last decade. Why not aim high again for the title of "World's favourite airline."

[PAXboy]

Diplomebut The Mirror??? That seems like an odd receipient of such largesse.The Mirror is the paper of the Labour Party. UNITE would see them as the only one friendly to them.

PapillionVirgin did even better in the most recent case: they didn't have to pay any fine...That's because, as I understood it, the top brass did not know what was happening. When they did learn of it - they were horrified that their staff were breaking the law and showing themselves to be no better than BA. So they blew the gaff and claimed the upper hand for having owned up to breaking the law. BA were discovered to just be breaking the law - again.

[Papillon]

That's because, as I understood it, the top brass did not know what was happening. When they did learn of it - they were horrified that their staff were breaking the law and showing themselves to be no better than BA. So they blew the gaff and claimed the upper hand for having owned up to breaking the law. BA were discovered to just be breaking the law - again.

That's how the claim goes, yes.:ok:

I can tell you though, that from my experience, BA were always completely and utterly paranoid about any issue of anti-competitive behaviour, and went through hoops to avoid any such suggestion. This extended to not even telling franchise carriers what was going on, so they found out at the same time as the public. I was shocked, genuinely shocked, that some people within BA did that.

[Diplome]

ExecClubPax:

I can certainly understand your concerns. Not quite sure what I would do if I encountered the individual wearing the white men's knickers with Mr. Walsh's photo imprinted on a future date.

Do I really want this person handing me my champagne on arrival? Ewww..just ewww.

[Global Warrior]

Why not aim high again for the title of "World's favourite airline."


I think this is exactly what is happening now the militant few have voluntarily decided not to come to work. If WW fires this lot, he will have himself an award winning airline and will be able to get back to doing what a CEO should be doing....... which is making money for the share holders......... not trying to appease out dated, unwanted militant CSD's

[Airclues]

PAXboy

That's because, as I underdstand it, the top brass did not know what was happening.

Not true!

Virgin boss caught up in BA price fixing case - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/5820700/Virgin-boss-caught-up-in-BA-price-fixing-case.html)

Dave

[MPN11]

I've been doing much reading over the last few weeks, here and on other Forums. Ignoring the various "yes he did, no he didn't" discussions, and the trading of questionable statistics, there is one thing that shines through all this.

The British are at their VERY best in times of adversity. The support given to BA by staff from ALL departments is not simply a question of self-preservation - with respect, I doubt that complex equation is part of many people's thinking. What all those good people ARE doing, IMO, is seeing something wrong, and bad, and mismanaged and doing everything they can to prevent it happening, and the keep the company going.

If it was a BAD company, as BASSA would imply, you could perhaps envisage all staff being keen to see it fall [as the BASSA militants seem to desire]. Instead, there is a massive "Rally Round The Flag" attitude, which is incredibly heart-warming.

Good luck to you all.

[TruBlu123]

Folks, can I suggest you cease to speculate on this subject meantime. The court case is almost upon us, Southwark Crown Court, April 2010. I know personally some of the people here. This must be a time of concern for them and their families. My best wishes are with them at this time.

[Diplome]

MPN11:

Well said...and I agree.

Its been fascinating to watch BA come together over this situation. Certainly more than I expected at the beginning.

Soooo...do you think that Unite will let its membership vote on BA's last offer as Mr. Walsh has requested?

[Snas]

Soooo...do you think that Unite will let its membership vote on BA's last offer as Mr. Walsh has requested?


...and will there be a rush to join the union again so they get a vote, I know many have left recently..!

[MPN11]

@ Diplome ... I have not a clue as to how the Union[s] will react. As a completely non-Union person, I would hope they would try to extract the best face-saving deal for themselves, and the best possible financial solution for their members. The evidence to date suggests that only one of those items is on the Agenda.

If I were a betting person, I would suspect that Mr Walsh will just sit back and keep turning the screw. Let us remember that HE is the CEO of BA, not the Unite leadership, and that HE needs BA to be profitable.

Unite has its own Agenda which, it has been suggested, includes leverage on the Labour Party. The livelihood of individual Unite members comes very far down their list of priorities, as recent events have indicated.

[earleyboy]

Diplome.

You asked how many crew turned up yesterday I think it was 57% Longhaul 75% Shorthaul and 98% at Gatwick. Today at 1300 it was 58% Longhaul ( but still a large amount of LH flights to go so that could go up, or down ) Shorthaul was an astounding 88% and Gatwick 98%. Rgds hope this helps.

[Diplome]

earleyboy:

Thank you so much.

[MPN11]

Curious that the profitable LH is [apparently] being under-served - but then statistics can prove almost anything! What is clear is where the "trouble" lies, and Mr Walsh simply has to address that aspect.

I was encouraged to read on the CC Thread that apparently some Volunteers are now contemplating becoming full-time CC. Clearly it is not the desperately hard life that others would like everyone else to believe . ;)

PS - would it be simpler to simply concentrate on what's happening at LHR? The good BA staff at LGW and LCY have made their position clear. Focus on LHR, and the militants, and the people who are filling their jobs whilst they march around "strutting and fretting their hour upon the stage" [[I]Shak.] would now seem appropriate.

[Boy In Blue]

Flew from BOM to LHR yesterday on the day service. Full cabin crew by the looks of it. Spoke to one during the flight. She felt the union was using them for its own ends so she took the decision to work. All the staff seemed quite happy and it was a good flight / atmosphere. No hot meals or spirits but the cold meal was good and the staff were generous with all other drinks. The actual crew service was better than I have experienced before!

[plane speak]

Not sure if anyone flagged the cabin crew settlement at Aer Lingus, Willie Walsh's previous employer:

Cabin crew at Irish airline Aer Lingus have voted 92 per cent in favour of the airline’s cost-cutting plan, dramatically reversing last month’s vote that rejected the same proposal by two to one.

After the cabin crew rejected the original €97 million (£86.6 million) cost-cutting plan, Aer Lingus management threatened to make all 1,300 of them redundant and immediately re-employ all but 230 on new contracts with reduced pay and new conditions. The 230 staff would have been made compulsorily redundant on statutory redundancy terms of two weeks pay per year of service.

The cabin crew, members of the Impact union, were the only group in the airline to reject the survival plan, despite their union recommending acceptance. The other four groups including pilots and ground handling staff accepted the plan, which includes 640 voluntary redundancies on six weeks’ pay per year of service, pay cuts of 5 to 10 per cent and new working conditions.

Bilateral talks at the Labour Relations Commission resulted in the cabin crew agreeing to re-ballot after receiving what it said were “deeper clarifications” on the plan. The airline said there had been no change to the original plan.

Aer Lingus welcomed the ballot result and said it will now implement the cost-cutting plan starting immediately with the pay cuts. The plan is designed to cut 7.5 per cent from the airline’s cost base.Full report here (http://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/pm/articles/2010/03/aer-lingus-cabin-crew-back-down-over-cuts-plan.htm)

[Entaxei]

Computer Industry style comparison

If you are running or take over a company which is suffering from previous bad/weak management and belligerent/militant trade unions, the situation you are in must be one where current working practices are very restrictive, costs/salaries are high, the company is overstaffed and the trade unions are making/interfering with management control/decisions

The only way forward is to restructure the company in all aspects - for this you need the understanding and assistance of the unions. If the only response that you receive from the unions is threats, demands, and then a strike, what are the ways forward left open to you - surrender or fight.

Regardless of the legalities, fire the striking staff, offer to rehire - but cherry pick those that are - good at their job - not militant unionists, once employed remove the restrictive working practices and increase the wages, the cost savings will pay for it, allocate an amount to meet legal costs and awards to those staff who are not re-employed. Firing the staff on strike may well be illegal - but - as the union had not attempted to help the company and the staff had decided to strike - driving the company into an even worse situation - it is unlikely that a court would have any real sympathy with the union or strikers, would take into account the improved situation of those re-employed and therefore the company. The resulting individual court cases and payments awarded would take some time, possible years and, it is unlikely that the court would award a large amount.


Cull your management team, don't use them on any union negotiation as they have already lost any authority on previous situations, promote new blood from within (if its available!), hire new human resources manager and director, appoint new 2nd and 3rd I/C. In changing management team -re-organisation of company and department structure, possibly a few early retirements, changes of responsibility, accurate performance evaluations, would take care the changes needed - all perfectly legal. Any manager that cannot give a good performance because of unions needs replacing.

In creating more efficient ways of working, also ensure that staff in each department have more responsibility for their work seeing a job through from start to finish, this gives a sense of being part of MY company, having a pride in their work, the best providing an upcoming source of supervisors and managers. Always involve the staff in discussions re any changes to their operation, invite suggestions before laying out your ideas - they may surprise you with better methods, remember, they do the job - ALWAYS share cost savings. For fairness, the following must be said -

Unions are not automatically bad, there is a place for them in providing a focal help and representation point for staff. Provided that they fully understand the company operation, its marketplace and needs, they can provide new ideas to the company and work with it to the benefit of all concerned. The problem for the last XXX years is that the majority of unions have a political agenda which is their primary objective.

NB: Labour costs are not always the biggest financial element, aircraft and airport facilities don't come cheap!!. :ok:

[earleyboy]

MPN11,

It's the longhaul routes that the major money is earned So this IMHO, is where the largest group reaction will be. As they see they are the ones being most affected. So, I am not suprised that the stats show longhaul at 57%. LGW crew aren't interested in this strike, Shorthaul crew now also seem to be turning their backs on BASSA.

Given that shed loads of temps are being refreshed at Cranebank another to 2 Fam flights for BA volunteers yesterday ( about 80 more staff ) With the ability to provide more Longhaul crews from within BA vols ( that are increasing in size every week) plus the temps. You may see a nearly, if not full Longhaul programme next time around, should it happen. Whilst La La's troops continue to strike waive banners spew endless lies and all this without having seen the offer that was on the table.

No loss in pay.
T and C's protected.
Extra free flight.
Profit share in line with pilots.
Guaranteed 3 year pay increases.

You just couldn't make it up !!

Just popped over to this site from the airline site and hope this helps.

[LD12986]

If there is a negotiated settlement between BA and Unite (unlikely at the moment) what's the money that the BASSA hierarchy try and shaft LGW and LHR EF to protect LHR WW as revenge for breaking the strike?

[just an observer]

One of BA's public reasons for turning down BASSA's 'pay cut' (loan) was why should LGW take a cut when they are already working the one down system. So BASSA have already tried, and BA didn't go for it. If they have any sense they never will, as LGW and now EF are proving to be the loyal ones, BA needs them on side.

[MPN11]

@ earleyboy ... just so! We have an agreement. :ok:

The BA LH "community" are, quite justifiably, trying to defend their T&C - like the £2,000 Crew payment because the lock on the door to the CRA is broken. :yuk:

I don't actually blame them for defending their T&Cs - I just wish they had done it with realism, with truth, and with some vague sense of dignity.

As BASSA has thrown all that out out of the window, My 'loyalty' is now 100% with the Company, and the good people trying to keep it afloat.

[Diplome]

just an observer:

I found BASSA's treatment of Gatwick crew in that episode to be absolutely appalling.

Miamimike just made a post on the cabin crew thread that is amazing in its sense of entitlement:


I have to say the pay/contractual/one crew member off situation has become a secondary issue.I stated yesterday my concerns regarding the aftermath,my primary concern.I was ridiculed by various FD and some of my posts removed.By merely suggesting the obvious ie very difficult times ahead re FD/CC relations I was politely advised to get another job/be offloaded.
As a long serving member of CC I have always held the nigels in high regard.Their action has exasperated an already highly charged divide re CC/WW.Im afraid its pure folly to say that everyone should act professionally and rise above it.Many will but many wont.Sadly Im a veteran of strikes,I know all about the aftermath.
As for the secondary aspect,WW needs to swallow his pride and put the pre-strike offer back.ST has to be re-instated,failing this customers will walk.This will be relatively simple compared to the primary problem.


First: If and when the strikers return they will have to accept that they are in the minority. Period.

Secondly: BA has shown, rather consistently of late, that they will no longer tolerate the bullying and abuse that has gone on in the past. BASSA will not be in a position to run BA.

Yes, it is enough to expect returning crew to act professionally. That's their job.

Finally...to think that the public will stay away if the strikers do not have their Staff Travel returned is simply a disconnect from reality. Read any newspaper, read forums, read comment sections...the public DO NOT support the strikers. In fact, the public would feel much more secure if these strikers were not a part of BA. Most have seen the photos, the videos, they know what many of these people are made of..and it's not pretty.

We'll see what comes out of negotiations these next few weeks but the public is hoping for a diminished role by BASSA.

[west lakes]

On a connected point, it seems to have gone rather quiet on the subject of an appeal by Unite following the last court case.

Other irons in the fire or have they been advised they have no chance of winning?

[Diplome]

west lakes:

Perhaps Unite was hoping that they could have the imposition removed by striking and therefore the legal action would be moot.

[earleyboy]

MPN11.

I think dignity and truth went out the window weeks ago as far as BASSA and UNITE are concerned . The personal attacks on WW are way out of order and the march as can be seen on youtube makes me cringe... so god knows what CC feel. I am not cabin crew just a ground worker. BA CC in the main are great people who want to give our pax the service they pay for. There are some though, that do as little as possible. I have had the pleasure and displeasure of flying with both types. The pleasure element far outweighs the other in 30+ years in BA. There are some really fantastic people in CC and hopefully they will be protected when all this crap settles down.

[MPN11]

@ Diplome ... some are professionals, some aren't. Basically, that's the issue.

@ west lakes ... Legal advice? BASSA bluster? Unite caught between a [Labour] rock and a hard place? Time will tell, and I think it may possibly be on BA's side.

@ [B]LD12986 ... your revenge point is noted. Perfectly possible, although I would guess that BA won't allow that to happen. BASSA has no power now, IMO.

[just an observer]

the cabin crew agreeing to re-ballot after receiving what it said were “deeper clarifications” on the plan. The airline said there had been no change to the original plan.



It seems to me the BA CC could have asked for some 'deeper clarifications' of parts of BA's offer re the continuing Ts & Cs, months ago.

[TwoOneFour]

The 'deeper clarifications' were probably very simple:

Get on board or get packing.

[plane speak]

The Irish cabin crew union press release contrasts starkly with Unite

The total number of ballots returned was 828 (approximately 83%). The result of the ballot was 92% in favour of the proposals, with 8% against.It is significant that this result was achieved through a joint negotiating process. Furthermore, the agreement was achieved without any recourse to, or threat of, industrial action at any stage of the negotiations.
Extensive bilateral discussions took place last week (Friday 19th March) at the Labour Relations Commission (LRC), which gave the IMPACT cabin crew negotiating team deeper clarification in a number of areas which enabled the branch to put the cost saving proposals of February 15th to another ballot of its members.
And according to the FT the percentage savings are far more significant than those BA wants.

Ireland’s flagship airline said it had agreed a €97m (£80m) cost-savings plan with unions, in spite of earlier objections to the deal by cabin crew members.
The agreement includes 670 voluntary redundancies, pay cuts of 5 to 10 per cent and new working conditions.
Aer Lingus said the deal amounted to cutting its cost base by 7.4 per cent, compared with the 2.6 per cent that British Airways is pressing for.
IMPACT statement (http://www.impact.ie/iopen24/result-ballot-cost-saving-measures-lingus-cabin-crew-n-316.html)
FT article (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c213713e-3c12-11df-b40c-00144feabdc0.html)

[jetset lady]

I understand that some of the same spirit is showing this week, that the passengers, the pilots, and the assortment serving as cabin crew display an exceptional appreciation of each other.



Where are all these party flights I keep hearing about? The ones where the passengers and crew have a fabulous time all the way to their destinations? It didn't happen on my trip, either the outbound on Saturday or the inbound on Sunday. The crew all started out in really good spirits but that was soon knocked out of us. Strangely, it is a route unsually known for being one of the nicest on the network. Also strangely, it had a much heavier load than normal, despite being on day 1 of the second strike. Yet, despite a full crew complement, full services and an early departure and arrival both ways, a certain section of people spent the whole journey complaining about anything they could find including the fact that the chicken meal had mushrooms in the sauce and they didn't like salmon, the person in front/behind had reclined their seat/turned their reading light on/kept moving around and even that we encountered turbulence on the inbound! :ugh:

If I wasn't such a nice person, I'd wonder if maybe they had deliberately booked with BA or not accepted any of the other options during the strike so they could be "victims" and dine out on the stories of how they were stranded in distant lands, thanks to the horrible nasty cabin crew, with not even a drop of water to cool their parched throats. I'd also guess that they were actually quite disappointed to find that we all turned up for work and that they even got the normal service including hot meals throughout the aircraft. But obviously, I am a nice person so I don't suspect any of that. :hmm:

I don't expect passengers to curtsey as we walk past (although a few flower petals sprinkled in our path would be nice ;)), but a bit of understanding would be good. We had a lot of young crew on that trip who were understandably nervous about breaking the strike and a few got off the aircraft wondering if they'd done the right thing.

So while I'm glad the atmosphere on many flights is good, please don't assume that's the way it is on all of them. To be honest, I'm getting a bit sick of hearing about it. And if you want to be a "victim", may I suggest you don't fly from LGW. Unless you don't like mushrooms and salmon of course....

[PeterI]

@jetset lady OK I promise I won't moan if I get salmon as my only option in J on my trip to UVF and I like chicken with mushrooms. :ok:

Although I have to say the seat reclining won't be problem.

[PAXboy]

Global WarriorIf WW fires this lot, he will have himself an award winning airline and will be able to get back to doing what a CEO should be doing....... which is making money for the share holders.I disagree. The CEO's job is make the customer happy AND profitable for the shareholders. When CEOs concentrate solely on the share price - well, just look at the service industry since the recession of 1989/91 and see where it got them.

Keep the customer satisfied but, then, I'm middle aged and was brought up in service industries and told to ensure that the customer was happy and profitable (in that order).

AircluesPAXboy: "That's because, as I understand it, the top brass did not know what was happening."
Airclues: "Not true! Virgin boss caught up in BA price fixing case - Telegraph"Sorry, I do recall that now. At the risk of trying to rewrite my post, I had Branson more in mind. He must have been gutted.

[Dawdler]

The BA LH "community" are, quite justifiably, trying to defend their T&C - like the £2,000 Crew payment because the lock on the door to the CRA is broken.

From reports on this and other forum threads, it would appear that there have been remarkably few reports (i.e. none) of this renumerative fault occuring since the strike started.

[Boy In Blue]

CRA? Im guessing Crew Rest Area? Grateful for clarification.

[Dawdler]

You've got it!

[Boy In Blue]

Cheers Dawdler!

[kappa]

Now that the 'TRA' of 'CRA' has been docoded, does anyone want to explain the "insider" chat on the restricted Pprune CC thread about no reports during the strike days of "broken CRA locks", with the figure of £2000 being banded about?

Or is this too top-secret for SLF to be made privy to?

[Dawdler]

As I understand it, if the Crew Rest Area door lock is broken, making the area unusable or insecure, the crew can claim an allowance for being deprived of its use. I have no idea of the level of award, but others have put figures on it.

I am happy to be corrected if the case requires it.

[PAXboy]

If, as PAX, I encountered a door marked: STAFF and AUTHORISED PERSONNEL ONLY. I would not go in. I can understand that if the whole rest cabin was unavailable that some kind of compensation would be due but I muse that, if a broken lock can trigger such a penalty, human nature will be not far away. No, don't answer that, I'm just musing.

[wiggy]

Where are all these party flights I keep hearing about

Sadly it seems you've drawn the short straw, done two now, both out of LHR and both were dare I say it fun, passengers almost all on side ( but see below) and great crew, without exception, from a variety of backgrounds, on both trips...however I'm not sure we will get away with the cold food for much longer, no matter how good the quality.


a certain section of people spent the whole journey complaining about anything they could find

Sorry to hear that, on both trips the only passengers with any major gripes have either been Staff or retired Staff.....

[pencisely]

So 2 strike periods now delivered with no real impact on the core operations of the airline.

Many CC now without staff travel and some who rely on it to get to work will presumably be fired for future non attendance.

BA now nicely armed with the intelligence on who the strikers are no doubt will use it wisely. Presumably their future rosters will now look less busy than they did.

With regards to future action no doubt BA will when dates are announced will adjust rosters to ensure the strikers aren't given the opportunity to cause the disruption they hoped to.

UNITE options now starting to look seriously limited?

Series score - BA 2 - UNITE - 0

Just about to board LAX to LHR which will of course be staffed by the loyal and brave crew who actually appreciate what they have in these very difficult times.

[kappa]

Following are excerpts from three running posts in the CC forum that are the most recent referring to broken CRA door locks:
It is a true pleasure to see the folks that are operating as CC on our aircraft over the past two days; they are a credit to themselves and to the airline….From us, the rest of the airline, a heartfelt thank you to all…..Oh, and not a single broken Crew Rest Area door lock reported in the CDL. ”Oh, and not a single broken Crew Rest Area door lock reported in the CDL”…..Ah.. That's another nice little earner I believe. Care to remind us how much it is per crew member on a trip? ”Ah.. That's another nice little earner I believe. Care to remind us how much it is per crew member on a trip?”.... Can't remember the exact amount, but I know it costs the airline over £2K per trip, for a 744. Would anyone comment on the reference to “£2K per trip” and “per crew member on a trip”?

[etrang]

What Next?
So 2 strike periods now delivered with no real impact on the core operations of the airline.

I don't think BASSA leadership have any real choice. Either they accept the loss of staff travel, disciplinary actions and terms and conditions they have already rejected, or call more strikes.

[Stoic]

There are full-page advertisements in today's newspapers with a letter from Willie Walsh thanking BA's "many thousands of our customers".

The penultimate paragraph reads:

Unite has failed to ground British Airways. We have put a fair and sensible offer to the union, and I hope it will now allow its members to vote on it.Since the offer which was made before the strikes was withdrawn as soon as strike dates were announced, what are the details of the offer to which WW refers in the ad?

[TruBlu123]

This old chestnut is symptomatic of a wider malaise. Whether or not a payment is justified, whether or not the door is habitually faulty, it appears to me that the company has been in dereliction of its responsibilities for allowing a situation like this to grow to the extent it appears that it has. For this defect to occur as regularly as it seems then there must be a design fault with the mechanism. An engineering solution (child proof) ought to have been found rather than allow this "piece rate award" to gain common currency in the way that it has.

It looks to me as if there has been no joined up thinking between IFCE and Engineering in attempting to address this issue.

OR, perish the thought IFCE were quite happy to "allow" this practice to continue thus rewarding an already well rewarded workforce.

Call me cynical if you like, I've been there.......

[Dawdler]

If, as PAX, I encountered a door marked: STAFF and AUTHORISED PERSONNEL ONLY. I would not go in.

Perhaps, but however....

Purely an assumption here, (perhaps a crew member can enlighten us), presumably when crew are taking bunk rest, they do not do so whilst still wearing their uniforms. With a mixed crew on board this could provide a problem if the door lock is broken.

[Boy In Blue]

I would say that the Airline have won this contest hands down and they will not back down. The primary reasons for their victory is an almost complete lack of public support for the strikers. The resons being, well my view anyway:

1. Things are tough in the UK and going to get tougher. People have enough to worry about.
2. Militant Unite. Again there is no public appetite for militant unionism a the moment. Posturing talking heads who no doubt still enjoy union sponsored first class travel just dont cut it anymore.
3. The demo outside the Arora Hotel was a disgrace.
4. The head of the BASSA Union swanning it in LAX - on a sicky?
5. A well played media strategy by the BA CEO. Dignity in press conferences and not rising to the bait.

In short the BA CEO has won a massive victory. Without him BA would probably be finished. From reading this it appears he will come out with a happier company. I would also like to think that the loyalty shown by crew who worked will be recognised as the company undergoes change in the next few years.

[JEM60]

Flew back from Milan on Saturday. Sadly, it was operated by Jet2.com. No complaints, of course, but I was looking forward to giving my praise to the crew for operating the BA flight. Have no intention of booking with any other airline for my requirements. My best wishes to all working staff.

[Diplome]

Stoic:

I believe this is the offer, issued 19 March 2010:

The Way Forward – British Airways formal offer to Unite

This formal offer is made by British Airways in a genuine attempt to resolve
the dispute in the best interests of our customers and our cabin crew.

The airline needs to make permanent structural change to its cost base to
ensure its long-term survival. Both parties acknowledge that the company will
only be able to afford this agreement if there is a stable industrial environment,
without any further revenue loss or reputational damage as a result of
industrial unrest.

In doing so, the airline continues to recognise the professionalism and skill of
its cabin crew.


Complements

The company will re-introduce a level of complement equivalent to a total of
184 full time crew into Eurofleet and Worldwide, the distribution of which will
be determined by the company. Any new recruitment to facilitate
complement changes will be into a new fleet.

The level of flying remaining in Worldwide and Eurofleet will be determined by
the number of flights which can be covered with existing crew and
complement levels.

To enable the re-introduction of complements, further savings have been
jointly identified;

- Removal of early day report rule from Worldwide
- Removal of telephone allowance from Worldwide and Eurofleet
- Removal of language allowance from all fleets
- Non flying variable pay maintained at current levels, reviewed Feb 2011
- Crew meals aligned to world traveller specification
- Overseas meal allowances maintained at current levels, reviewed Feb 2011

Complements remain non-contractual.


Final version
19/03/2010
1
Pay

Increments
Incremental pay rises will continue to be applied.

Basic pay
The company has offered a four year pay deal, effective from 1/2/2010 as
follows:

• Year one 2010/11 current pay scales will be maintained
• Year two 2011/12 the company will increase base pay based on
December 2010 RPI and capped at 3%
• Year three 2012/13 the company will increase base pay based on
December 2011 RPI and capped at 3%
• Year four 2013/14 the company will increase base pay based on
December 2012 RPI and capped at 4%


New Fleet

There will be a separate mixed flying fleet for new crew, with separate terms
and conditions and bargaining rights. There will be a separate negotiating body
for new fleet, which will not discuss the terms and conditions of current crew.


Assurances for current crew

Crew on existing fleets will have the following protections;

• Terms and conditions for current crew - A fundamental principle of this
offer is that crew will have a firm commitment from British Airways in
respect to their terms of employment. Current crew can feel assured that
their existing contractual terms will be maintained for the future unless
amended through the agreed NSP negotiating procedures.

• Part-time - The company will continue to honour commitments to make
part-time offers to all crew on existing lists by March 2011. The offer will
be on existing fleets, terms and conditions. Future opportunities will
continue to be available.

• Access to route network - It is the company’s intention to ensure a fair and
transparent distribution of routes to all fleets, based on commercial need,
which will be discussed with Unite. The distribution will be reviewed at the
end of each season and will be considered as part of the broader TUC
review process after twelve months.
Final version
19/03/2010
2

• Monthly travel payment – To provide increased security of earnings, both
parties have agreed to negotiate and introduce a monthly travel payment
that consolidates existing variable allowances for Heathrow fleets. The
payment will be based on the average of the current cost of variable pay,
as per items described in appendix A. The company will adjust the monthly
travel payment each year, in line with base pay. (See appendix A for
further information).

• Access to aircraft type - It is the company’s intention to deploy new
aircraft based on commercial need across existing and new fleets. New
aircraft will be introduced on a fair and transparent basis across all the
company’s fleets. Existing crew terms, conditions and fleet agreements will
apply when new aircraft are operated on existing fleets. As new aircraft are
introduced across all of the company’s fleets, crew will be trained in order
to receive the necessary licenses as required by regulation.

• Career structure and opportunities for current crew - The career structure
for current crew within current fleets will continue on the basis of existing
practice, unless amended through the agreed NSP negotiating procedures.
The company confirm that where there are opportunities available, existing
crew will be promoted on existing terms and conditions on current fleets.

• Honouring current and future agreements – Both parties acknowledge the
importance of honouring agreements and are committed to working
together to create a climate of effective industrial relations. The best way
of guaranteeing this is through the successful completion of the industrial
relations review, which will include the appropriate application of cabin
crew agreements.

• Ability to transfer fleet/base on current terms and conditions - As with the
current process, there is no guarantee of achieving a transfer. However,
the company has committed to continue with the current practice of
transfers at Heathrow between Eurofleet and Worldwide, and to find a
mechanism to aid limited transfers from Gatwick under current terms and
conditions.

All current crew will have the opportunity to apply for all roles on the new
fleet if they choose. This will provide promotion opportunities for many
current crew. All crew joining the new fleet will have separate terms and
conditions. The company is prepared to recognise Unite for the purposes of
bargaining in the new fleet.


Final version
19/03/2010
3

Opportunities for Gatwick crew

It is accepted that restrictions within the Gatwick Fleet memorandum of
agreement limit the long haul route network. It is agreed that discussions will
be held with a view to removing these restrictions to provide the best
opportunities for growth in the long haul network at Gatwick, for the benefit
of the business and our people.


Disruption agreement

In order to minimise the impact of disruption to our customers and our crew,
the following points will remain, or be incorporated into the Disruption
Agreement

• The definition of disruption remains unchanged
• The double night will be removed for Worldwide diverted inbound
services to anywhere in the UK and Europe, and a minimum of 15 hours
off-duty will be achieved if the aircraft is unable to continue to its
original destination
• When disruption takes place the IFCE management team will advise
Duty representatives and crew colleagues when and how the disruption
agreement has been applied. A review will take place of any disruption
at the next joint meeting


Working together

The parties are committed to beginning the process of restoring and
improving relationships at all levels. With this in mind, it is important that there
is no victimisation arising from the dispute and both parties will work to ensure
that any issues are settled in a mature and professional way. Where there are
disciplinary or grievance cases, the intention is that these will be resolved
quickly. Where behaviour is found to be serious, any resulting action will be
measured and proportionate.

For the benefit of our crew, customers and business and in support of our
objective of making IFCE a great place to work, the company is keen to
develop a positive working relationship with the trade union to enable
effective industrial relations. The delivery of this agreement is dependent on a
radical change to our working relationships. In order to achieve the necessary
change a third party organisation will be engaged to support a fundamental
review of the company and cabin crew trade union relationships.
Final version
19/03/2010
4

Both parties recognise the assistance the TUC has given in securing this
agreement. The application of this agreement will be reviewed with the TUC,
twelve months from the date the agreement is signed.


Future IR framework

It is acknowledged that the existing arrangements for industrial relations for
cabin crew need to be reviewed and made fit for purpose, for both the
company and the union in the 21st century.

The union will re-engage with the existing facilities agreement. Negotiations
will take place between the company and the union nationally, with a view to
reaching a mutually agreeable framework within 12 weeks of completing this
agreement. The union have noted the company’s intent as outlined in the
covering letter attached to this agreement.

The company proposes the introduction of a broader business consultative
approach across British Airways, to engage our representatives and our
managers in a wider debate about our business performance and needs of our
customers. An example of items for discussion at the forum is the allocation
of routes. Prior to the start of each season the company will discuss the
allocation of routes with Unite.

Both parties are firmly committed to the effective application of company
procedures, which are currently the subject of negotiations in the Employment
Policy Committee and BA Forum.


Policy

Changes to corporate policies that apply to all colleagues across the company
and covered at the BA Forum and EPC have been subject to discussion. It is
the intention to conclude these discussions within one month of completing
this offer.



This offer maintains the contractual rights of cabin crew at their current level.
The offer does not reduce or extend them from where they are today.




Final version
19/03/2010
5
Appendix A – Fixed monthly travel payment


Worldwide
The fixed monthly travel payment will consolidate the following allowances;

• Long range premiums (LRP)/box payment
• Back to back payment (B2B)
• Destination payment (DES)
• Excess time premium (ETP)


Eurofleet

• Long day payments (LDP)
• Excess time premium (ETP)
• Base early report payment (BER)


The following categories of allowance are not included within scope of the
fixed monthly travel payment:

• Meal Allowances
• Daily Overseas Allowance (DOA)
• Nightly Incidental Allowance (NIA)
• Time Away Allowance (TAA)
• Line Trainer Payments
• Grounded Maternity Payments
• Rest Day Working
• Willing to Work
• Exceptional Payments from WW Disruption Agreement (One-Down
and Zone Closure)



Final version
19/03/2010

[jetset lady]

Sorry to hear that, on both trips the only passengers with any major gripes have either been Staff or retired Staff.....


Now why doesn't that surprise me! :rolleyes:

[beerdrinker]

Dear Mr TightSlot,

There is talk in the CC Forum BA V Bassa about a possible retabling of the last offer by BA. Perhaps you might like to post the following:

The Daily Mirror: "Willie and Woodley in their own words"


Chief executive Willie Walsh has called on Unite to put BA's latest offer for crew to its members.

In an open letter to Unite's joint general secretary Tony Woodley, published in today's Mirror (March 30), Willie said: "Ten days ago, before the first strike, we put a fair and sensible offer to Unite. The union rejected it — without consulting crew. Give your members a voice. Let cabin crew vote on the offer put forward."

Tony Woodley's response, published alongside Willie's letter, refers to using the two weeks to find a solution before the earliest that another strike could take place.

Both letters are reproduced below in full, unedited.


Dear Tony
Unite’s strikes have failed to ground British Airways.

We are flying more than 75 per cent of our customers to where they want to go and well over 60 per cent of cabin crew are turning up for work.

But that does not mean we want this dispute to go on.

British Airways cabin crew are rightly renowned for their skills and professionalism. We want a settlement that is fair to them and sensible for our business.

This airline is enduring a second year of record financial losses. We cannot go on like this.

We have to change our ways of working if we are to survive in the long-term — and provide jobs not just for crew, but for the thousands of engineers, baggage handlers, pilots, customer service staff and other groups who make up this airline.

Many of these groups have already contributed to the drive to make ourselves more efficient. Cabin crew cannot be an exception. Most crew realise this – which is why they don’t support strikes.

I believe we could resolve this dispute very quickly. Ten days ago, before the first strike, we put a fair and sensible offer to Unite. The union rejected it — without consulting crew.

So I say to you: give your members a voice. Let cabin crew vote on the offer we put forward.

It includes a four-year deal on pay — with a freeze in year one then rises of up to three or four per cent. Our existing crew would stay the best-rewarded in the UK industry.

Even though the courts say we do not have to, we have addressed Unite’s main demand for more crew on flights. We would recruit 184 extra staff.

The offer also paves the way for new long-haul opportunities for Gatwick crew, who would like a bigger network and are paid significantly less than their Heathrow colleagues.

And it sets out a plan to modernise our industrial relations so we can avoid this kind of damaging dispute in the future.

One of many myths in circulation is that I want to break the union. This is nonsense.

I have never been anti-union. I am a former union negotiator myself. Our offer makes clear that we would continue to recognise Unite to represent not just existing crew, but new crew employed in the future.

I have great respect for you. I know you don’t want more strikes. I know you want a settlement.

You and I may have different views on this offer. But surely the most important views are those of the crew themselves.

Unite’s officials and shop stewards have been holding closed, private conversations for far too long. Let the membership have a say, Tony. Put the offer to the vote and give peace a chance.

Yours, Willie


Dear Willie
No one can now doubt the strength of feeling among BA cabin crew.

I have been proud of the solidarity they have shown over the past week in standing up for their right to be treated with dignity by their employer.

The company has been hurt.

Both British Airways' image and its bank balance have suffered because the company did not listen to what its own employees were telling it — and then act to avert the disruption.

We don't want to cause further grief to the travelling public. That is why I believe common sense now demands that Unite and BA get around a table and thrash out a deal that satisfies both parties.

There is common ground. We accept that British Airways needs to cut costs to survive.

Tens of thousands of Unite members at British Airways — including cabin crew — have said they are ready to do their bit to keep the company flying.

Crew have offered more than £50 million in savings and BA want £10 million more — far less than it has lost as a result of this dispute.

But staff want to be treated with respect. Imposing radical change is no way to treat dedicated and professional employees.

Cabin crew have real fears about their future. Above all, they are anxious about the company's plans to bring in a "new fleet" of crew hired on lower pay and worse terms.

The company has said it will protect the pay of existing cabin crew. But they want assurances — not just fine words — that they will get a fair shake in the distribution of routes going forward.

Where you fly and how often is a core part of crew's working lives, and seeing the plum jobs handed over to cheaper staff as fast as the company can manage is not acceptable. But I believe we should be able to thrash out a formula which allays those concerns while accepting management's right to manage.

The other sticking point is your determination to punish those men and women who have stood by their union in this dispute by taking away their travel concessions.

In many cases, cheap BA flights are essential for crew to get to work, never mind for any other purpose. Can you really mean to inflict a lifetime's punishment on staff who you yourself say are good cabin crew?

Industrial statesmanship means drawing a line under the rancour.

Surely you should not be putting unnecessary obstacles in the way of rebuilding morale.

Unite has already promised not to strike over the Easter holiday period. We will keep that promise. That gives us two weeks to find a solution before the earliest that another strike could take place.

Let's use this strike-free period to establish what we all want — getting British Airways a platform for permanent prosperity.

Yours, Tony

[wascrew]

As far as i understand it this was bassa/unites response to the BA offer

http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/BA_offer.pdf

[Mariner9]

Unite protested when BA withdrew the offer once the strike dates were announced, and demanded that it was put back on the table.

Now it seems that WW is prepared to do just that. In my view this is a very clever move that puts Unite in a very difficult position, with only two options:

1. If they put the offer to the crew, they would almost certainly* vote in favour. The only thing CC will have "gained" from the strike therefore is the loss of some pay and staff travel. They will also have considerably damaged BA's present and future earnings, that at best, vastly reduces their employer's ability to maintain industry-leading T&C's. Thanks Unite.

2. If on the other hand the Union refuse to put the offer to their membership (or if the majority vote against it), Unite will have no option other than calling for further strikes. However, given the ever increasing number of staff working and the number of new CC's being trained, it won't be long before BA consider the striking staff to be surplus to requirements. Thanks Unite.

With regards to Staff Travel, I just can't see WW caving in over this. I would imagine that Unite's only feasible strategy would be to try and convince their membership that they should return to work while Unite endeavour to get the removal of ST declared illegal in the courts.

I await the parties next move with interest.

*On the basis that more than 50% of the CC did not take part in IA

[searbyb]

Is it not mentioned in this thread that the company have the right to sack strikers and recruit replacements after 12 weeks providing it can demonstrate that it has made every effort to negotiate?

Perhaps WW's letter is part of that process.

[Diplome]

Mariner9:

I believe the offer that BA has put back on the table is the second offer, made AFTER strike dates were called but before the actual strike.

Other board members can feel free to correct me on this.

[Chuchinchow]

what ?? go a day earlier..explain that to your boss why you need two days to do what they expect in one ! what the F#ck difference is that gonna make ?


:confused::confused::confused:

[Mariner9]

From memory Diplome, the 2nd offer was made after the vote but was withdrawn on the day the strike dates were announced. No doubt one of us could check if we felt like wading back through several thousand posts on the subject!

PS Chuchinchow...I know, I was equally confused. It made one of Watersidewonker's postings seem erudite and well composed by comparison :ok:

[emanresuym]

Mariner9:

My recollection is the same as Diplome. The offer which WW is willing to re-table is the one he made AFTER the strike dates had been announced. This was the one that Unite complained was "worse than the previous offer".

Edit to say: And the offer Unite want back on the table, is the first offer made prior to the strike dates being announced.(Despite the fact that they said they wouldn't recommend this to their members)

[The SSK]

I'm probably wrong but I thought the only difference was that the first one offered inflation-linked pay increases in 2011 and 2012 capped at 4%, and in the second one the cap was 3%.

In other words, no difference unless inflation in either of those two years exceeds 3% (is that likely?)

The big difference now is that the militants who have lost ST have less incentive to stay, if they go their replacements won't cost the company so much.

[Diplome]

Mariner9:

I waded..which is where I found the text :)

Note that the second offer does not deliver the guarantees regarding Unite representation that were in the first. I'm sure that is one of the reasons its not being put to their members.

I'm surprised the membership isn't insisting on an opportunity to at least vote on the offer.

[Mariner9]

Fair enough chaps, I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification (and for doing the wading!)

I don't think it changes the thrust of my post above regarding Unite's options - if anything, a worse offer that one for which they've previously recommended rejection puts them in an even deeper hole. And WW's not likely to lend them a spade :D

[etrang]

The big difference now is that the militants who have lost ST have less incentive to stay

Those who use it to get to work may well find it financially impossible to stay.

And WW's not likely to lend them a spade

Actually, if you're in a deep hole the last thing you need is a spade. That's what made the hole in the first place. WW's probably happy to give them a bigger spade, but he's not likely to lend them a ladder.

[ExecClubPax]

From reading the cabin crew forum I understand there is a distinct possibility that lists of non striking BA cabin crew are being compiled.


Clearly BA would have a defacto list of strikers (or at least those who failed to report for their scheduled duty over the last 2 weekends). However, can anybody hazard a guess as to why lists of working colleagues should be created and by whom?

[jetset lady]

At a guess, by some of the more militant strikers to identify, intimidate and isolate those of their colleagues that went to work.

[ExecClubPax]

I thought it was the union's case that BA did all the intimidating and harrassment.

[Dawdler]

It doesn't take much working out! Look out for behaviours that are not conducive to good team atmosphere. I have seen this sort of thing before and some people find it impossible to overcome it - even for decades. I wonder how the sales of the Sun newspaper are doing in Liverpool nowadays?

[Ten West]

They're probably selling just as many as they ever did. many Sun readers appear to have the attention span of goldfish. As long as it contains t*ts and football in equal measure it'll sell. :(

[wascrew]

Willys` first move post strike??

Willy Walsh Introduces Sharia Law onto British Airways (http://www.dailysquib.co.uk/?c=117&a=2217)

[oggers]

I heard today from a non-CC BA worker that all her department are proper angry at Unite’s plan to raise an extra £700 000 to support the striking cabin crew. They are all quitting the union forthwith. Similar sentiments are being expressed by Unite members working at Air France-KLM (I was surprised they had members there but I’m told they do) who don’t care to pay so that BA CC can continue to enjoy the best pay and conditions in the industry.

She also corroborated BA’s figures for passengers flown, having been hard at work putting bums on seats during every one of the strike days so far. :ok:

[Chuchinchow]

Willys` first move post strike??

Willy Walsh Introduces Sharia Law onto British Airways (http://www.dailysquib.co.uk/?c=117&a=2217)


I wonder how long it will be before the first angry, self-righteous, protest comments appear here.

[Ten West]

I heard today from a non-CC BA worker that all her department are proper angry at Unite’s plan to raise an extra £700 000 to support the striking cabin crew. They are all quitting the union forthwith.

Seems I'm not alone then. As soon as that communication reaches me I'll be doing the same. :ok:

[MPN11]

@ oggers ... that short post seems to summarise the unfolding tragedy that is BASSA [or at least, those senior CC and Reps that believe they above reproach].

I'm certianly not a Union supporter, but when things are handled managed] so badly, I have genuine sympathy for the majority of Unite' membership.

A better BA, and a better BASA in the future? Or BA and PCC, of course, although that might take a little longer.

[etrang]

However, can anybody hazard a guess as to why lists of working colleagues should be created and by whom?

By BA for their rostering, i'd imagine. If Unite calls another strike, BA will want to know which CC they can rely on.

[MPN11]

BTW, has anyone heard anything about these "manual payslips" that Unite[BASSA] were banging on about? Issued early, that sort of thing?

Or was that just another LIE to be thrown into the pot?

[call100]

I heard today from a non-CC BA worker that all her department are proper angry at Unite’s plan to raise an extra £700 000 to support the striking cabin crew. They are all quitting the union forthwith. Similar sentiments are being expressed by Unite members working at Air France-KLM (I was surprised they had members there but I’m told they do) who don’t care to pay so that BA CC can continue to enjoy the best pay and conditions in the industry.

She also corroborated BA’s figures for passengers flown, having been hard at work putting bums on seats during every one of the strike days so far. :ok:

Before it gets distorted by the ill informed on here....There is no levy on members by the Union. This has been misreported |(Surprise) Branches receive a remit of income to run the Branches. , two per cent of the income for one quarter (a figure which equates to roughly £700,000) which would normally be remitted to the branches for their own use will now be used to support those suffering hardship during the strike.
The members of Unite do not have to pay an extra penny as a result of this decision.
What it does mean is that those former T&G branches which normally get ten per cent of their income remitted, for example, will, for the next quarter, receive eight per cent instead. In the case of former Amicus branches the two per cent will be taken out of those funds held centrally from which branches may apply for support under existing procedures.

Now continue to carp, but at least do it in an informed environment..:ok:

[Pilot Positive]

Looks like there's a chance other Unions could be joining the BA CC in sympathy...?

BBC News - BA strike: Nordic unions consider sympathy action (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8597032.stm)

Thoughts?

[MPN11]

Ill-advised?
Largely irrelevant?
Posturing?

Do they have legislation that prevents/permits "secondary action" or "sympathy strikes"?

BBC has "thoughts"? About what?

At this moment, I'll just :zzz:

[Pilot Positive]

It does appear to broaden the issue....however, it could also mean that CC momentum has hit its zenith??

[LD12986]

And so the state of denial continues...

. GI - 31/03/10 - The Day after (http://www.uniteba.com/copy_GI_310310.html)

So what's going to happen now?

One question we were continually asked at Bedfont and Gatwick was "What do you think will happen now"? The answer is: only one individual really knows and it's no secret who that is. The Easter break will be a time for reflection for everyone but for one person, Willie Walsh, his next move is crucial. If he continues along his dogmatic path he has so far followed, i.e. the dismantling of this proud company and its cabin crew work force,then that will be met with greater determination. If however he now realises that confrontation is not the best way to go forward and that your Union will not be neutralised then there is some hope still that a way can be found out of this mess. The joint General Secretaries of Unite will eagerly be waiting and watching for his next move. The spotlight is well and truly on him.

One point that was also continually made was how resolute you all felt and how, if there was a need, you would all want a longer strike period next time. Most members I spoke to were even more determined than ever to see this through now to the bitter end should there be a need.

Meanwhile, over the forthcoming lull it will be a good time for Unite lawyers to pursue the legality of the staff travel withdrawal and the deduction of extra days pay. Both issues are complex and probably without precedence. I know many of you want quick action on this and some have even considered seeking private legal opinion. No problem with that but obviously we do not want you spending your own money and AMICUS believe this expense should be picked up by Unite. We will update as soon as we get any news, but an element of patience maybe needed. Lawyers never hurry!

Obviously AMICUS is finding it hard to function at present - with no de-rostering facilities except for reps attending members' disciplinaries it is almost impossible for us to provide a service. BA will have all the reps flying or doing return to work courses, SEP etc so please bear with us as we try and cope using just a skeleton staff. That phone that is not answered or "e mail" that is not replied to is because there simply is no one there.

While on the subject of the reps, We would like to thank them all for their superb efforts over the last fortnight. Their dedication, hard work and cheerfulness has been truly inspirational and those of you that went to either picket will have seen first hand how tirelessly they worked and the amount of organisation that was required.

The whole Strike experience has already been written about and the resulting emotion will remain with us. forever. The level of support you showed was so uplifting, the camaraderie was special and heart warming. We will never forget that open decked bus yesterday at Bedfont, crammed to the rafters with smiling faces and billowing flags, everyone completely impervious as the rain lashed down. It made
us remember that the best thing about this job is always the crew. To everyone who helped out, whether it was serving tea, directing the madhouse that was the car park or those who just sang and danced on the picket line we would like to say, you were all wonderful. The stories that will surely flow from the whole experience will soon become legendary. Someone said yesterday, if I could just fly with everyone who picketed this job would be truly great again.

Some of you will be going back to work today and that will not be easy as you will be mixing with people who chose or indeed, perhaps I should say, were intimidated to work. Please all of you be professional and careful even though the emotions are bound to be running high. Although we would have wanted all members whichever way they voted, to have withdrawn their labour, everyone handles "pressure" differently. Some of the younger ones will have been totally new to the whole business of striking and the bullying and threatening attitude shown by BA must have made it very hard to stand up and be counted. We hope if there is a next time these people can take comfort that all those who did participate in industrial action are still alive and well and very proud of themselves and that perhaps it might be better to join them.

However what does leave a nasty taste in many mouths are the more senior members who went to work. Most if not all of these people have enjoyed many years working for BA earning a reasonable wage with good terms and conditions all obtained and protected by your union To go on strike was a very democratically taken decision and for them to suddenly turn their backs on their union and colleagues is a very, for the want of a better word, shameful way to behave. Most will regret their actions if they haven't already.

As for the people from outside the cabin crew community, especially our flight deck colleagues, who chose to get involved in a dispute that was none of their business, well quite frankly you are beneath contempt. Those pilots who took "Willie's shilling" have set back Flight Deck/Cabin Crew relationships decades and quite frankly those that sat back and did nothing to stop this disgraceful behaviour are almost equally guilty. One of the saddest things was meeting some pilots both current and retired, who were aghast at the actions of both their colleagues and their union. I know there are some good guys and lasses out there in F/D land, who are appalled at what has happened but you simply cannot be surprised that right now the cabin crew who went on strike do feel bitter and bruised.

With the whole world watching and at a time when the trade union movement and worker's rights are under threat we sincerely hope the actions of these strike breakers do not come back to haunt them.

On a more practical level the forms to claim back your GBP30 strike pay can now be downloaded from the website. If you have no access you can write to Nikki Everley at Unite House, 99 New Rd, Harlington, UB3 5BQ or request a form via ****

So, will Willie take this opportunity to look for a settlement?

Unfortunately the gap between us is now wider than it was a fortnight ago with the removal of staff travel and draconian deductions in strikers' pay. The ball is firmly in his court. If this dispute is still about cost savings then we can still talk and negotiate our way through this minefield - but if it is - as we think and is being reported in the media - about destroying the union's ability to represent and resist imposition, then he will find the Picket spirit more defiant and more united than ever. (Indeed, it was a shame he could not have heard some of those chants on the picket lines.)

During tough times it is even more important to support not only yourselves and your colleagues but also your union and reps. We are all in this together.

Have a Happy Easter - and look after yourself.

[MPN11]

That will be "Happy Easter" for all the people who were deceived by Unite's statement about "No strikes over Easter"?

There are few words that the PPRuNe censor software will accept, but I'll try ...

borrocks, bullsh1te and shameless. :mad:

Ooh, that worked!

[wascrew]

view from the picket line

YouTube - BA cabin Crew strike - Willie walsh is Pants (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9T0ycf_mUo&feature=email)

[MPN11]

@ wascrew ... An infantile mob. Is that negotiation?

[dubh12000]

Someone said yesterday, if I could just fly with everyone who picketed this job would be truly great again.

:}

Parallel universe, quote #5672

[MPN11]

It does appear to broaden the issue....however, it could also mean that CC momentum has hit its zenith??

I must have missed that zenith. Please tell me when that happened :)

[Chuchinchow]

view from the picket line

YouTube - BA cabin Crew strike - Willie walsh is Pants (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9T0ycf_mUo&feature=email)


Did the female wearing the sow's snout and the dark glasses really think they would make her unrecognisable? That her managers would not immediately know who she is?

She said that she had "just flown in from Dubai"; she might as well have arrived from Cloud Cuckoo Land for all the savvy and nous she displayed.

If - by the remotest of chances - there had been the slightest scintilla of doubt as to who she was, she blew it then and there.

Dear God, the stupidity of that woman absolutely defies description!

[call100]

That will be "Happy Easter" for all the people who were deceived by Unite's statement about "No strikes over Easter"?

There are few words that the PPRuNe censor software will accept, but I'll try ...

borrocks, bullsh1te and shameless. :mad:

Ooh, that worked!
Oh. So Unite have informed you alone that a strike has been organised over Easter...Amazing how you gleaned that from the letter.....:ugh:

While not agreeing with the way this has been handled by both sides, it doesn't help when people write Bullshut.

[MPN11]

Sorry, where's the bullsh1t in that? People were travelling over Easter, either side, not JUST on Sunday [Easter Day].

Unite said they wouldn't strike over Easter. OK, they didn't call a strike on Easter Day. What about the people travelling before, and after, Easter Day?

Or are we now into the semantics of how much we can pi66 off the travelling public without actually saying so?

What's the Unite definition of "over Easter"?

[oggers]

Before it gets distorted by the ill informed on here....There is no levy on members by the Union. This has been misreported |(Surprise) Branches receive a remit of income to run the Branches. , two per cent of the income for one quarter (a figure which equates to roughly £700,000) which would normally be remitted to the branches for their own use will now be used to support those suffering hardship during the strike.
The members of Unite do not have to pay an extra penny as a result of this decision.
What it does mean is that those former T&G branches which normally get ten per cent of their income remitted, for example, will, for the next quarter, receive eight per cent instead. In the case of former Amicus branches the two per cent will be taken out of those funds held centrally from which branches may apply for support under existing procedures.

Now continue to carp, but at least do it in an informed environment..


I don't think they're concerned about a levy per se. This 'war chest' isn't appearing by magic. It is members' money one way or another and many are rather bovvered about where it's going, and the way the union has conducted itself. :*

[west lakes]

many are rather bovvered about where it's going, and the way the union has conducted itself

This includeds other industries, from conversations I had at work today

[Landroger]

Looks like there's a chance other Unions could be joining the BA CC in sympathy...?

BBC News - BA strike: Nordic unions consider sympathy action (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8597032.stm)

Thoughts?


Its certainly food for thought, but isn't it more indicative of those airline staff being completely unaware of the facts of this dispute? If there was any great support for the BA industrial action, wouldn't there be some support at least from UK based airline staff? I haven't heard of any Virgin staff showing much solidarity.

Roger.

[wascrew]

@mpn11

I daren`t post what i thought about the lady in the u tube video it would be the rants to end all rants.
Just suffice to say i posted the link for general consumption and I `m sure people will make their minds up one way or `tother.

Barca are simply brilliant btw!!!

[pj67coll]

I've been a lurker for a while, (since AF447) and this is my first post.

Unfortunately I'm wondering if I've made a serious mistake. My wife and I are flying to LHR from PHX in June for a sort of combined delayed honeymoon, family reunion, holliday and we booked BA. Mostly because as our time is limited - you can't do nearly as much as we'd like in only two weeks - we wanted to maximise our time in Britain and minimise our time travelling. So getting on a plane in Phoenix and off in London ten hours later and vice versa seemed the best option all round even though there were cheaper alternatives out there.

Then I saw the BA strike thread. I have not flown for a decade, and never before on BA so I can't comment on the state of the company but it certainly saddens me to read what I've read on this forum.

I'm stunned at the so called "arguments" made by the strikers and their supposed beef with management. Both my wife and I have survived the first round of job cuts at our employer (we both work for the same organisation) but could both be out of a job, and our house, within the next six months. So to say that I have zero sympathy for the strikers is putting it mildly (and politely for that matter).

This isn't a trip we'll likely be able to make again for the forseeable future so I really hope this striking bs wont wreck out introduction to Britain.

- Peter.

[Pilot Positive]

Yes, its not particularly endemic to the UK - and Europeans will always console their brothers? Not sure how any strike by the ITF will transfer weight to BA CC's cause either unless they picket and refuse handling on BA flights into Northern Europe...



PP

[wascrew]

PP
Can I tell you to have no fears.
Most, if not all of our customers from the USA enjoy their experience with BA for a multitude of reasons.
Most if not all of our crew will not let the dispute affect their performance at work
Caveat is sometimes you do get crews on any airline who are not that good quite frankly.

Enjoy your trip just hope that spring has sprung by the time you get here!!
And of course your dollar will go a long way versus the GB peso (used to be a valued currency called the pound !!)

[Pilot Positive]

Wascrew - wish I was going to Las Vegas for a holiday...!

If only I could take a break from sitting in terminal buildings and playing with this new fangled iphone device thingy... !!

Northern Europe v North America??? :} Check post #706...

[call100]

I don't think they're concerned about a levy per se. This 'war chest' isn't appearing by magic. It is members' money one way or another and many are rather bovvered about where it's going, and the way the union has conducted itself. :*
You may or may not be right. I am not trying to defend either side. As I said I'm not impressed with the conduct of either side. However, it is essential that the distortions should be corrected wherever possible. Most members would not have even heard of Branch funds unless they were helped in some way by them.
As this thread is riddled with rubbish sometimes it's best to point people in the right directions for their moans as and when one can.

[wascrew]

pp
sorry!!
post was intended for pj67coll

lesson for me ===== don`t multi task shudda stuck to the footie!!

[Pilot Positive]

...what! You mean the holiday isnt for me? I'll have to take my very expensive sunglasses back to the exclusive high street market stall I bought them from now. :hmm:

[Dawdler]

I am not allowed to contribute (now) to the BA CC thread (to which I have been posting for the past few months). I understand the reasons even though it is a bit irritating. However TOM100 put a question on there to which I have the answer, I just hope he/she sees it here. If you click: •*BASSA•*About us (http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/WebPages/AboutUs.asp) you will see a number given for the membership of BASSA. It must be an automatic counter as it has been going down for some time, accelerating since the "levy" issue was raised. I have pm'd the OP but perhaps someone who has access to that forum could post a link so that it can become more generally known.

I would do it myself but the mods would simply delete it.

[scotbill]

There has been much on these forums of the better working atmosphere between flightdeck and cabin crew as a result of the strike.
Yet BBC Radio 4 this am has anonymous striking cabin staff claiming that pilot strike breakers have created an irrepairable rift between the two groups. This is to be the subject of a programme tonight apparently.
Can those who have some experience of the real situation get their viewpoint across to the BBC before then? Presumably they would be granted the same anonymity(actor voices etc.) as the strikers are enjoying.

SB

[manintheback]

From BASSA/UNITE
The Easter break will be a time for reflection for everyone but for one person, Willie Walsh, his next move is crucial. If he continues along his dogmatic path he has so far followed, i.e. the dismantling of this proud company and its cabin crew work force,then that will be met with greater determination. If however he now realises that confrontation is not the best way to go forward and that your Union will not be neutralised then there is some hope still that a way can be found out of this mess. The joint General Secretaries of Unite will eagerly be waiting and watching for his next move. The spotlight is well and truly on him. ?


Of course if WW does, well nothing at all which he clearly doesnt have to - whos court will the ball be in then? Hook line and u know wot.

[ChicoG]

Great to see Simpson so committed to negotiating a settlement that he has the time to go into whore bars in Bangkok.

Derek Simpson: Union boss behind BA strikes admits visit to Bangkok go-go bar | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1261257/Derek-Simpson-Union-boss-BA-strikes-admits-visit-Bangkok-go-bar.html)

[Andy D]

I heard the BBC piece and was livid, it seams the BBC have just become the voice of Unite and the strikers and seem completely incapable of presenting both sides or even performing critical analysis on the claims of either side e.g. the 20 jets at Cardiff

[oldflyboy]

As an ex BA cabin crew member of some 40 years and now retired, I am getting increasingly angry about the actions of the Militant Tendency in BASSA, with their piggy masks and piggy thoughts. The interview with 'pig woman' on youtube, coupled with the battle bus rants and the parade down the Bath Road etc. has brought me firmly down on the side of Mr Walsh and BA. The woman has evidently not read anything sent to them through their company emails, indeed I know that many pro BASSA crew ALWAYS delete them before reading as it is 'Company Propoganda', for there is no way she is going to lose 40% of her income, and does she really believe BA are flying circuits with aircraft to 'keep the slots'???:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

I have always believed that everyone has a right to strike, (even if their union is acting like idiots in their negotiations), but as BASSA now seem intent on destroying both BA and Mr Walsh, I'm afraid my allegience is now firmly on the side of the Company.

So Mr Walsh, I hope you keep the Big Boots on and don't let the rants of the hardliners push you from your path. If you have to, sack the strikers, I am sure the rest of BA will support you, as well as the many loyal customers who have posted on this thread.:ok::ok::ok::ok:

I did before today have a lot of sympathy towards those who took action over the last two weeks, but the reports of intimidation from returning strikers to those who chose to operate during the action I am hearing have changed my feelings towards you. I may lose friends after I post this on Facebook, but Guys, you are in the wrong and should be ashamed of yourselves!!:=:=:=:=:=

Rant Over from Oldflyboy!:mad:

[Mariner9]

I await the BBC report mentioned, but if the CC featured feel that CRM wll be damaged to an extent that flght safety will be compromised, then surely he/she has no option other than to resign :=

[call100]

I heard the BBC piece and was livid, it seams the BBC have just become the voice of Unite and the strikers and seem completely incapable of presenting both sides or even performing critical analysis on the claims of either side e.g. the 20 jets at Cardiff
That sounds a bit like the postings on here!! I don't think anyone has been capable of presenting both sides in an even and critical way anywhere....

[Final 3 Greens]

Call100

It is difficult to be even when both sides are playing hardball and supporting their positions with spin.

Ultimately, I am a believer in management's need to manage, balanced by good representation for the workforce.

If both factors had applied at BA since privatisation, we wouldn't be where we are.

I'm no big fan of Walsh, the ground service and the product at BA has gone down noticeably under his tenure (in fairness it had started to decline before), but he has to stand firm now.

As for BASSA, 'We killed the golden goose' may be a fitting epitaph.

[call100]

Final 3 Geeens.

We may agree on those points.......It's time the grown up's came back!!

[Low Flier]

Oh, how BA management must regret this advert in the context of the "volunteer" "cabin crew"!
vPaqRmByXo4

[Basil]

the product at BA has gone down noticeably under his tenure
It is with regret that I have to agree.
First: No canapes with the Champers. Food not great.
Business: Food poor.
WT & WT+: Food dire.

CC service varies from great to "WTF did you just say to me, steward?!"

Willie Walsh! You need to get on top of the foregoing! :*

[emanresuym]

Basil,

With respect I think you need to get your priorities right.

The first thing WW must do is provide us with a service that we can rely upon. If we book flights with BA, we need to know that they will actually transport us from A to B without disruption.

Fortunately, WW seems to be addressing this issue :ok:

[pj67coll]

wascrew

I certainly hope you are correct. It's not so much the service level on board I'm all that concerned about as wether or not there will even be a PHX to LHR flight when we go.

- Peter.

[lowcostdolly]

Low Flier :D:D:D:D:ok:

My type of humour!!

Was going to post that one myself but don't know how to post/link from youtube.

Perhaps somebody could PM re this?

[konaman]

how can any employer, let alone one in a service industry, continue to employ staff with this kind of attitude towards their customers, & fellow employees?

"A few comments from another forum regarding flight crew and the changed environment where captains are now speaking to the cabin crew at the beginning or their briefing and clearly being seen as the person running the show:

Quote:
from somewhere else.... wrote:
for f/d.

For example, i know i must serve them their food, does anyone know when?
Must i do tea/coffee or will water suffice
must i get them crew purchase/duty free or is that a nicety and so on.
There will be no more niceties, but i want to stay on the correct side of my jpm's.

......

And i will never ever shake hands ever with them. yuk




Also from somewhere else... wrote:
I will never be part of one team for BA Sorry but if BA went bust i wouldnt give a s**t!!!! But some will of course guess who? The scabby pilots!!! Be one team? kiss my a**e !!!!!




And there's more... wrote:
Just give them the blank stare...fixed pencil thin grin and then sniff. They will soon bugger off. Has worked for me for years. If they ask for anything from the front do what you would do for a pax. Wait five minutes and then say; "sorry don't have that."
Anybody in any doubt that there are some CC who really need to be let go?"

WW needs to get a big book of P45s

[Andy D]

It seems the BBC's role as the Unite propaganda machine continues -
BBC News - British Airways strike's 'toxic' staff legacy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8597519.stm)

What about the non-strikers views?

[wiggy]

Just give them the blank stare...fixed pencil thin grin and then sniff.They will soon bugger off

Oh dear, sadly we are displaying our dirty laundry here but I suspect our loyal customers need to know that anyone displaying that sort of attitude will be dealt with.

A deliberate failure to communicate by any crewmember must throw doubts on that person's fitness to operate onboard an aircraft. The keyword the Captain will no doubt have in mind will be "offload". The management keyword would hopefully be "P45".

[just an observer]

There's a link here to contact the makers of the radio programme

BBC - Radio 4 - The Report Contact Us (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/features/the-report/contact/)

Maybe someone more able than I needs to put the other side. Or several someones.....

I can't post this on the CC thread, I'm not airline staff.

[Basil]

wiggy,
Some years ago a colleague offloaded a young lady for similar behaviour.
Her unfortunate crewmember husband who (IMHO wisely) sided with her was also offloaded but I'm sure that his extenuating circumstances were taken into account at the subsequent inquiry :ok:

[Papillon]

A general question for you both then: if a crew member was offloaded (for any reason, I don't necessarily mean as a result of this dispute), presumably the captain then too has to appear before that enquiry to explain his or her actions. If so, how does the airline manage that to ensure fairness and remove any possibility of unfair behaviour by that captain? How do they address the problem of it being one person's word against anothers, without giving undue weight to the view of one individual?

[Rusland 17]

It seems the BBC's role as the Unite propaganda machine continues -
BBC News - British Airways strike's 'toxic' staff legacy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8597519.stm)

What about the non-strikers views?It appears to me that the article is simply about possible tensions between striking and non-striking crew members, and it includes several quotes from a BA spokesman.

I think you're determined to see bias where none exists.

[wiggy]

You're right, having a witness removes any wriggle room. You need to choose your time and place and frankly some folks can't see it coming. The Flight Deck, in the presence of another Cabin Crew member and another pilot usually works wonders.

[Boxkite Montgolfier]

Good posts konnanman and wiggy

In response to papillon I am very heartened to hear of a new vibrant relationship amongst the dedicated BA personnel who have lifted the profile of the company over the recent strike periods. Ultimately, in my view, BA will revert to an unchallenged chain of command from Captain down. If a new regime emerges with a whole crew on the same itinerary throughout a work schedule then a more sensible future beckons . Spanish practices will need to be cropped in all departments but a healthier company will eventually succeed.

Pontifications over but finally I wish to congratulate all departments in BA for pulling together in the last two weeks. Pilots,cabin crew,engineers,ramp staff,ckeckin,office admin etc not least management for all working selflessly in determining the future of a great company.

Time now to rid the nest of the unworthy

[Chuchinchow]

With a probable merger with Iberia in the offing, perhaps the time has come to eliminate the (pejorative) expression "Spanish practices" from the British Airways lexicon?

[MPN11]

@ Chuchinchow ... hahahaha, one of your better ones! :ok:

I'm really looking forward to flying on 21 Apr.
If anyone here is working BA217 that day, feel free to PM. :cool:

[backseatjock]

Completely agree with 3 Greens - summed up the situation perfectly, for me.

[backseatjock]

Sleep suits gone from long haul Club too Basil (although that was a while back now and you only ever had a top from BA). VS cutting back too, understandable in todays's business environment, but seems to be in a slightly more subtle way and without the same impact on overall quality.

[MPN11]

The cutbacks are noticeable on BA, as we only do long-haul to the USA a couple of times a year. Every time it has been a bit less ... to the point why you wonder why you pay the MASSIVE premium for J [apart from the 'fairly comfy but narrow' seat for sleeping on the return [night] sector. There's simply no WOW factor any more.

Better service, style, charm etc. will be needed in the future IMO. Sadly, on some routes, BA is not cutting it. Perhaps the turbulence now will make for a better BA in the future? I earnestly hope so, because it's sad to see a great carrier being criticised so much on this and other Boards. I know some people will jump on the anti-BA bandwagon and have a good moan, but there has been something wrong with LHR LH on some sectors for a while now. With luck, it will get better again.

[west lakes]

Now here's as interesting story from the Panorama on-line newspaper Gibraltar

Panorama, Gibraltar's Online Daily, Gibraltar news (http://www.panorama.gi/)

The bold bit is mine

Union issues statement on decision by Customs officers

Unite the Union has issued a press statement regarding the decision of a large number of Customs Officers to leave this Union.

Whilst the Union says it regrets this unfortunate stand, "we must respect the democratic wishes of employees."

They add: We are fully aware, this has come about regarding a single issue, involving an ex member of this Union, we will not go into detail of the problem, as this might jeopardise the chances of an Officer finding a satisfactory solution on the contrary from this Union we can only say that we wish the ex member the best of luck in its endeavour.

We must nevertheless be critical with the management of the department, for not acting swiftly on a matter that was brewing, and although they had the mechanism to resolve the problem, they did not intervene in a manner that would have avoided the situation that developed later on.

The union goes on to say that it offered all its services, including legal advice, but this was rejected, and again reiterate "our position of total respect for the decision taken, by the individual."

The Union says that for the information of all members it is a democratic organisation, and has a structure that can be acceded by the members.

"Any member or members, who consider that either an Officer, Convenor or a Shop Steward is not representing their interest or view, can address the issue to the District Committee, where the member or members can put their complaint, once this procedure is followed, the District Committee, the governing body, which is composed of twenty seven members, from all sectors, will invite the member/members affected to raise the complaint either orally or in writing, the committee will then take a decision, and action will be taken, if the complaint is found to be genuine, against any of the Officials, regardless of whether they are full time Officers, or Convenors or Shop Stewards. This procedure has not been followed by the resigning members. The membership must be fully aware that the Union organisation is run by human beings, they are not infallible, and can make mistakes. The Union organisation is owned by its members, it belongs to the members, and this must be made quite clear. The trade Union Officials represent the members, and speak on their behalf. As stated above members consider that there interest and grievance are not being properly addressed, they should use the mechanism outlined above," they say in a statement.

And they add: "What we can criticise is the way the resignations were presented with maximum publicity, this only discredits and undermines our prestigious organisation.

"Finally, we must thank the loyalty shown by these who have decided to remain in Unite the Union. To those who have left, we can only say that the doors of this Union will always be opened to them."perhaps some unhappy Unite cabin crew members should do just that!

[Dawdler]

From the same publication:- 27-03-10
Sixty-five Customs Department officers yesterday tendered their resignation from Unite the Union following discrepancies over the response to the interdiction of two members from the Dog Section.
A spokesman for the resigning members stated that the reason for their action was “substantial disunion within Unite, which has led to years of lack of support.”

.”They further accused Unite of “manipulation on their part to derail our reasonable concerns"It seems there are more parallels with BASSA than you might think.

[Stoic]

Do not the present goings on demonstrate that the conglomerate union, Unite, now has within it the seeds of its own destruction? Unite contains many impossible conflicts of interest. For example. the striking BASSAists (of Unite) who refuse to contemplate change are prepared to put at risk the livelihoods of BA's other Unite members. Hardly an act of brotherly trade unionism!

Is not the very name 'Unite' an oxymoron? Can Unite survive in its present form or will it be obliged to demerge so that the interests of its different groups of workers can be properly represented?

[call100]

Do not the present goings on demonstrate that the conglomerate union, Unite, now has within it the seeds of its own destruction? Unite contains many impossible conflicts of interest. For example. the striking BASSAists (of Unite) who refuse to contemplate change are prepared to put at risk the livelihoods of BA's other Unite members. Hardly an act of brotherly trade unionism!

Is not the very name 'Unite' an oxymoron? Can Unite survive in its present form or will it be obliged to demerge so that the interests of its different groups of workers can be properly represented?
There are many within the Union who would agree with your analysis.
However, I believe the solution is in the membership. Fighting from within is far better than leaving. Quitting the Union will not benefit one single person in the long run. Those opposed to the strike at BA would have been better off joining BASSA in force and changing things from within. The only section to benefit from the resignations will be the company bosses. Those quitting will be at forefront of future cuts, there loyalty will not be rewarded, it will not save their jobs. They will be seen as weak by the company.
One of the biggest problems that moderate TU reps have is the fact that many people either do not vote, or, do not realise what will happen if they vote for strike action. Every strike is met with those who cry off at the last minute with the whine 'I didn't think it would come to a strike' Now, it would be far better for them not to have voted for the strike in the first place.
I would resist the involvement of National Officers at all costs. In my view once they are involved the whole thing becomes Political, and we can all do without that (as the BA strike).
It is always better to talk than walk.

I think that the Union gets an unfair press and all the good it does is never reported. There are many small engineering firms up and down the country who have been saved due to the TU helping negotiate pay cuts and pension cuts where necessary. I know of a company who actually phoned the TU area rep and asked if he could help because they didn't think they could afford to pay the workers that month. (Admittedly this is Amicus). That company is still trading and on the up. The amount of individuals it has represented are too many to mention.
I've seen reps berated for helping save jobs rather than agreeing redundancies. Basically for a moderate TU rep it's very hard. The easiest thing to be is a militant, no thinking is involved in that. Telling the workforce how it is, rather than how it should be is not an easy road to take.
Once realism goes out of the window then we see the BA situation.
Having said all that, keeping an eye out for the opportunist CEO's who are using the present economic situation to prepare for massive profits over the next couple of years, on the back of reducing Terms and conditions, lowering pay, closing pension funds and forcing redundancies, is a given.
The management have a right to manage, they also have a responsibility to their workforce. Between us we should be able to ensure that everyone is treated fairly, equitably and with respect.
To all those who disagree with the TU in the BA case I say, get together, organise, join BASSA and change it from within, if change is needed....

To the original Question.....Yes I think Unite is too big, I think that those of us hanging in there will, eventually, win the day. If that means de-merging then so be it...

I wish you all good luck.

[Landroger]

It seems to me that a strange quiet has descended over the dispute at the moment, with very little t1t and certainly no tat going on. However, one or two of the more erudite and clear thinking members over on the restricted thread have made some excellent points. And asked some very thought provoking and challenging questions.

There are a lot of very good posts over there, but in my opinion Highflyer14 is absolutely on the money, although so far no-one has an answer to his/her major issue. He/she argues; that if somehow BASSA can get its act together quickly and suggest to its members - it cannot 'offer' anything at present - that if WW were to repeat the last offer made and withdrawn, what would be their reaction - then they would likely accept. This, she/he probably rightly says, would perhaps bring the current dispute to an end, but to the detriment of the non striking crew and worse, would leave BASSA largely intact and still capable of causing all the nausea they do at the moment. This would not be to the advantage of either the non striking crew or WW as British Airways.

BASSA, I think, are waiting for WW to make the next move, while WW has apparently no clear stated short term intention. Which is rare for someone who has made it policy to announce every intention clearly, well in advance and remained virtually rivetted to that intention. Given Highflyer14's view is correct, then the core question is; what will WW do next and, perhaps more importantly, when?

I don't know how many contributors to this thread are 'restricted thread qualified' and how much transfers across, but I would really like to know how much of the opinions expressed on the restricted thread find their way to senior BA management. Indeed, how much actually gets to BASSA senior staff? One thing is certain, more verifyable facts relating to the BA position are posted there and poured over endlessly, while I have seen not a single, well written, clearly thought out, verifyable justification of BASSA's position. And I have read every post on two of the five BA Crew IA threads and every one on the current one.

Roger.

[west lakes]

while I have seen not a single, well written, clearly thought out, verifyable justification of BASSA's position

I have heard it said that the reps have, generally, not posted on any forum for a long time - by agreement.
That suggests that some of the more vocal union supporters are as much in the dark, of the inner workings, as ourselves.

This is possibly why there has never been any "justification"

[call100]

I have heard it said that the reps have, generally, not posted on any forum for a long time - by agreement.

To be honest, that's probably the best way to go.....For those involved in the negotiating process, no matter how broken, to comment on forums like this would be unwise. Hard as it may be, for some who post on here, this is not the centre of the universe, nor indeed, the centre of the dispute.
I don't see WW or any of his people (undisguised) commenting on here for the same reasons.
Maybe it's best that everyone enjoy the Easter break and maybe some serious reflection can be done by both sides.

[Landroger]

I have heard it said that the reps have, generally, not posted on any forum for a long time - by agreement.
That suggests that some of the more vocal union supporters are as much in the dark, of the inner workings, as ourselves.

This is possibly why there has never been any "justification"

That may be true WL and I think you might be right, but that doesn't quite cover it, does it? Reps may not be posting, but then management do not post directly - unless you count SCCMs and CSDs.

So far as I am aware, the most articulate and clear thinking contributors on the other thread are 'simply' crew and I mean no denegration there. Because of the broadly open nature of argument on PPRuNe, I have learned an awful lot about this dispute - from what I can understand, probably more than the average BASSA member - so why have those members not taken advantage of this forum and found out what is really going on? And why have none of them put the BASSA view on the front foot, by clearly elaborating their case?

I think HighFlyer14's main 'gripe', if I can pressume to summarise her/him, is that while most of the non strikers have taken the trouble to listen to both sides of the argument and made up their minds accordingly, most of the strikers have listened exclusively to BASSA and by doing so have materially disadvantaged all cabin crew. Because BASSA either have no idea which side their bread is buttered or, have their own agenda.

Roger.

[oldflyboy]

Does anyone else think it interesting that according to a couple of posts on the cabin crew thread, BA has withdrawn facilities at the crew report centre for the union; and have insisted that BASSA reps are not any longer de-rostered for 'union duties' and have to perform these on their days off?

As an ex crew performance manager I can attest to the many days operationally fit reps used to get taken off trips to attend meetings or do office cover, all the time being paid a nice stipend by BASSA worth more than the allowances for the trip, as well as their basic salary by BA. This was recognised custom and practise for years. Indeed I can recall manpower plans being written that removed the reps from the numbers of crew who flew, i.e. they were considered over and above the numbers required to fly the operation.

Sadly this led to a situation which seemed to be the norm in the recent past for crew to speak to their BASSA rep over an issue, rather than speak first to their immediate manager for a solution. Can anyone over on the crew thread attest to this as being still the case prior to this round of industrial action?

And I presume the removal of facilities for the Union applies also to the CC89 representatives?

Oldflyboy

[LD12986]

An apology from The Guardian in respect of the front page article "BA told to hit union 'where it hurts'":

Frank Burchill - Apology | From the Guardian | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/apr/02/frank-burchill-apology)

[TruBlu123]

Not before time! This could herald a sea change in the way the company conducts IR activities going forward. Not that this particular situation is confined to CC. I know of former and current lay representatives who appear on individual managers headcount budget but for rostering purposes are not taken into account when planning available resources. Some have never struck a blow in anger on behalf of the company/customer for years! It is high time BA got a grip of the situation and cleaned this mess up.:E

[wiggy]

BASSA, I think, are waiting for WW to make the next move

Then I suspect they will be waiting a long time. As far as I'm aware the Company's stated position is:

1. The final offer ( the one made post the announcement of strike dates) is still on the table. Announce more strike dates and that offer will be gone.

2. Staff Travel will not be re-instated for strikers.

3. Those staff going through the Company's disciplinary process will continue to be "processed".

That's it.

Having seen the consequences of walking out the rank and file Cabin Crew will be stewing on the consequences to them of another walkout, I suspect UNITE are trying to untangle themselves from the unholy mess that BASSA has put them in...in the meantime the BASSA Reps will be desparately trying to do something, anything to get the issue back onto the front pages of the newspapers. I reckon WW is sleeping more soundly than the UNITE/BASSA Reps this weekend.

fly12345 summed it all up very eloquently when he posted:

There has never been a strategy attached to Bassa actions, they remain a destructive, evil force only thinking of themselves and nothing else, a bunch of hooligans with disproportionate power and unfortunately (ever decreasing) following.

[PAXboy]

oldflyboyAs an ex crew performance manager I can attest to the many days operationally fit reps used to get taken off trips to attend meetings or do office cover, all the time being paid a nice stipend by BASSA worth more than the allowances for the trip, as well as their basic salary by BA. This was recognised custom and practise for years.It was for all Unions, as I understand it. It was one of those moves that emerged in a different era.

As I have said before, this is the airline's 'Wapping'. One of the problems with human nature is that the 'pendulum' gets pushed too far in one direction and then the other. Mgmt held sway for a long time (centuries) so unions pushed it back the other, just as far. Now, instead of it being held in the middle to balance both sides, it will swing too far back the other way.

[Global Warrior]

BASSA, I think, are waiting for WW to make the next move, while WW has apparently no clear stated short term intention


For the short term WW does not have to do anything. Its the unions that have called IA. They may do so again or they may invite WW to discuss their issues. ACAS may even intervene to ask both sides back to the negotiating table so that neither side is seen to be losing face by allowing the other to believe one side has the upper hand.

If that happens WW will in all probability place on the table the offer that was withdrawn as a result of the strike dates being announced BUT those that did strike will not get their ST back. Why would he put the same offer on the table.......... because the membership were not given the opportunity to vote on it because BASSA announced IA which was against the offer.

By putting the same offer back on the table, those that did not strike wont lose out on anything. Those that did strike will lose ST and possibly their jobs as well if they have been identified to have been involved with intimidation or disciplinary actions. Unite will probably urge their members to accept the offer and blame BASSA for this not getting to the ballot stage previously. BASSA will be severely weakened and even made to look rather foolish and childish for the stance they took and the (mis) information they were posting during IA. The militants will/have been flushed out and will probably be asked to take a long walk off a very short pier. WW can then get back to running the airline and wont ever have to worry about the militant element ever again as he will have very convincingly crushed it.

BASSA will not be able to put up any meaningful resistance to this as it has been proven quite convincingly that only a very small percentage of the work force support them.

So yes....... go home and enjoy easter :ok::ok::ok: