UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours

[PeltonLevel]

RPI for March up to 4.4%.
National Statistics Online (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=19)

[lessthan20]

"at least one individual refused to cancel his rostered AAVA "

This sort of thing is ridiculous. The agreement states that you can do the shift if the company does not give 48 notice of cancellation (in certain circumstances).

What sort of person would have the bo***x to actually go in, with the company losing all that money. Hopefully the individual concerned is put on a "black list" by the ORO permanently. It is not rocket science!

[132.3]

What if the period of notice was less than 48 hours, considerably less?
Then is it appropriate?

It should also be noted that there is considerably more than one signature in the AAVA book within the last 5 days....

[LateStay]

Apparently, not all the AAVAs are being cancelled :hmm: .

[250 kts]

What if the period of notice was less than 48 hours, considerably less?
Then is it appropriate?

How about just for once an ATCO thinking about the bigger picture?

Those who did go in for an AAVA knowing there was a zero rate applied could easily have done the responsible thing by contacting the ORO (who may well have been pretty busy doing other things) and actually asking if they were really needed for the duty. That way we may be congratulating them on their pragmatic approach rather than asking for them to be put on a black list. I believe all of those that are cancelled are now promised that they will be given priority for the next one anyway.

What sort of person would have the bo***x to actually go in

I have to say there are some real "users" amongst the ATCO fraternity nowadays and these type of actions do us no good whatsoever. We do have one that managed to do all of his AAVAs in one year and then had the nerve to write an open letter to his colleagues telling them that the rate wasn't high enough and that they should stop doing them immediately.:ugh:

[terrain safe]

Surprising myself, I completely agree with Zooker, this sort of thing could only happen at Swanwick. At most units there is a better understanding of the real world, and how tough it is, so people are more proactive in making the system work. Shift swaps are done to meet the task instead of AAVAs because the unit can't afford them easily. Perhaps this is seen a stupid, but it ensures that we keep a job, and ensure the CUSTOMER is happy. That is what some people forget, we are a service industry, and have customers. Please understand this is not a 'go' at Swanwick in general, there are a lot of really good people there, but there are some pretty poor apples too, and they drag the rest of the unit down.

[Dan Dare]

Once upon a time, many years ago, ATCOs would be known to do extra hours work or whole shift swaps at short notice for little more than the warm feeling it gave us to be one of the 'hands on deck' keeping the system going. In those days one could also easily swap shifts with a colleague or get someone to go in and work one's shift for the going rate (about £3 2s 6d wasn't it?). Then goodwill started to go down the pan coincidental with having to "work as a business", so rather than working for goodwill or a few hours overtime, it was decreed that we would take a non-pentionable lump sum for attendance. People fought each other to take the dirty money and were quickly working up to the maximum allowed and goodwill continued to be a thing of the past. Large sums would be needed to get anyone in to work outside core rostered hours. Now when someone has got their jealously prized AAVA is it any wonder that they are unwilling to have the goodwill to give it up because management have changed their minds?

The only real answer is to have appropriate levels of staffing and do away with the corrosive AAVA agreement before the rot sets in permanently.

Sadly, back in the real world, too many have got used to the extra cash and will always say yes to more and there have never been realistic staffing levels as management always aim for just enough and not sufficient to provide a hedge against other ANSPs poaching our underpaid staff or medical losses, suprise retirements (it must come as a REAL shock to management that someone with 40 years service could be interested in hanging up the headset).

[Lon More]

Dan Dare It's not just with NATS or ATC in general.

There has been a total disappearance of professional pride. A legacy from tne me, me, me days of Thatcherism passed on to that generation's children?

PS FFS move this to your own private forum. Imagine the field day the press will have with some of the sentiments posted here when the first airline stops ops.

[radar707]

April RPI now up to 5.3%

[On the beach]

Might encourage a few more people to take early retirement. The "pay" rises on the pension are certainly better at the moment. Long may it last.

[Lon More]

It might hve been better to take what the last government would have offered. You look like prime targets for the new lot.

[rumouroid]

Actually the RPI of 4.8% was for July, August RPI will be released on 14th September, although it will be very similiar. After the mockery of the last pay deal I don't think Prospect will dare come away and recommend any less than RPI. I just hope that they don't leave it too long to negotitate a deal, it caught them out last time when the RPI was falling. Prospect have got a lot of ammo to use at the moment with the excessive management bonuses and £78 million profits.

[wickedsheep]

A little bird told me that the www.atcos.co.uk (http://www.atcos.co.uk) website is being revamped as we speak so there may be a couple of new articles soon.

In the last NTUS statement the unions state that they will issue further briefings once there is something useful to report. So maybe there isn't anything new at the moment. Management are probably still recovering after the announcement that the August RPI was 4.7% ;)

[Greebson]

Now Im not at Swanwick, but at the top of this page a colleague (yes I still believe we are still colleagues) was being slated for taking an offered unnecessary AAVA. The choice was his, but can someone explain the bit about the company losing money.
Also can you really put this colleague in anything like the same league as the Red Baron and Bob Hoskins.
I realise I'm some months late with this comment, but, boys let's show a little perspective. Our colleague cost the company a few hundred quid. The other 2 have cost the company MILLIONS and as a direct result of their management we are going to move from a part-privatised company (which is bad enough) to a fully privatised company, you may blame the recession, but, remember all the conversations from a year or more ago; and there is c$%k all we can do about it.
At least we appear to have an honest CEO who tells us we are going to be screwed, rather than one who informs us why we have a rather painful feeling in the backside.
The Greebs

[ZOOKER]

Yahoo!@
"and they have abandoned ATCOs.co.uk anyone heard of any whispers, or heard of any progress?"
No, you won't.
You're in troubled times and promotions are at stake.
Don't worry though.......
"Lots of work is going on behind the scenes". :E

[grim_up_north]

Dan Dare & Greebson....bravo!

So called 'goodwill' is what has kept our unit running for the last few years, and now we are having it thrown back in our faces. "Yes, you helped out through the bad times, but you PROVED that you can work short, and now we're cutting staff". I have never felt so let down. Since when did safe, orderly and expeditious become CHEAP, safe, orderly and expeditious?? We don't have enough staff to even cover the available AAVAs and I find it laughable that colleagues at other (busier) units can't see what's coming their way. We are being divided and conquered...seems like we're gonna lie down and make it easy. My goodwill disappeared a long time ago...sorry if that upsets you :ugh:

[Me Me Me Me]

I'm not sure what the info coming out of Prospect is... but I know PCS had held back on giving out any info on the 'negotiations' but finally reached a point where they said they felt the offer coming from NATS was so insulting that they were compelled to make it public knowledge.

My guess is if there is no significantly improved offer forthcoming then they'll be putting it to the members' vote with a recommendation to reject. We're then into ballot for industrial action territory.

My personal impression is a number of the senior guys (in PCS anyway) are fully aware that they're under pressure from some questionable judgement calls the last time round and are ready to dig in.

[Track Jitter]

I heard from a reliable source that a part of our business empire cannot afford much of an increase in pay rates due to the nature of the contracts they have in place.

[landedoutagain]

a part of our business empire cannot afford much of an increase in pay rates due to the nature of the contracts

Let's hope that its only the management tiers that this applies to for once...

[DC10RealMan]

Call me old fashioned but it is not "your business" it is "their business" and it is in their interests to destroy your pension, reduce your salaries and other terms and conditions as that is their job.
Your job is to stop them.
By the way, its called capitalism!!

[Track Jitter]

True, maybe a poor choice of words. I knew what I meant though.

It it were "my business" I would not have bid for contracts that are not making any real return if what I have heard is corrrect.

[Vlad the Impaler]

not making any real return

That's a delightfully optimistic way to describe a LOSS!

[Greebson]

I've got a sneaky feeling that,just after the pay deal has been negotiated, we'll find that we've made a meaty little profit. Volcanic ash will probably account for pretty much the same as the relocation projects of previous years. I accept we won't have the proceeds of the sale of EGLL tower to cushion the blow:mad: but we'll be okay.
By the way Grim, we haven't been safe, orderly or expeditious for some years now. I don't think we can entirely blame NATS for that, but I'd hazard a guess they had a hand in it.

[Mantovani]

Lord Hutton today published his initial findings of his public sector pensions review.

(initial findings are technically known as softening up)

He basically said final salary schemes where doomed and everyone was going to have to pay more into their schemes and take less out later.

NATS's original pension scheme was tied to the CAA pension scheme until it was re-negotiated the other year.

In the light of the subsequent MoU the Unions should refuse point blank to discuss any ramifications whatsoever of the CAA pension scheme be changed.

Been there, done that, tough titty :)

[BAND4ALL]

See ASDA has closed it's final salary scheme after closing it to new members five years ago. WalesOnline - Business - Business News - Asda axes final salary pension scheme (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business-in-wales/business-news/2010/10/09/asda-axes-final-salary-pension-scheme-91466-27434065/)

See many similarities here to what Nats has gone through, MOU or not I think we had better watch out, especially if they start dangling offers of 25% of Salary lump sums to accept it, :mad:'s

[Fukit]

Any truth to the rumour that East Mids got +4%?

[Me Me Me Me]

It it were "my business" I would not have bid for contracts that are not making any real return if what I have heard is corrrect.

That's a delightfully optimistic way to describe a LOSS!

It's not always as back & white as that though. some of the loss-making contracts are worth keeping due to the effect they have on the other marginal ones when you look at the overall picture.

Corporate overheads are a cost spread accross all of those contracts. The fewer you have, the larger the portion each one is "burdened" with. Drop one loss-maker and you might find 2 that are currently just about breaking even will become loss-making.

Hence the way they are attacking those overheads with such enthusiasm!

[Mantovani]

So is the whole of NATS not going to get a proper pay rise simply because NSL is hard up?

Does this mean NSL management won't be getting any of their bonuses?

NERL made massive profits last year, the shareholders got weighed in, Barron walked off with a cool £1,000,000. The very least we in NERL deserve is an inflation rate pay rise.

Our toil earned the money, why should we not be properly rewarded.

Why should the bosses get all the money as us sweet FA?

[man friday]

NSL Gibraltar +3% on the first Nov

[LEGAL TENDER]

Does this mean NSL management won't be getting any of their bonuses?

I am sure they will more than ever, after the "swift" introduction of EFPS and the ethnic cleansing of ATSAs that is being carried out!

[Me Me Me Me]

NSL's sale is iminent

The sale of the whole thing is iminent.

[Mantovani]

NSL isn't making enough to fund a pay rise because it selling its services too cheaply.

NSL provides an excellent service and it shouldn't be afraid to charge for that excellence.

The airports are tightly integrated with TC & NERL systems. This tight integration is made possible because NSL & NERL are part of the same group.

If BAA or GIP think they could get the same through put of aircraft by employing someone like SERCO to do their ATC they'd be in for a very big surprise.

[Del Prado]

I'd like at least RPI+1 pay rise to compensate for last, in real terms, pay cut .

I'd also like to see the end of the AAVA agreement. It's up for renegotiation and management are desperate to make it permanent. (with good reason. they can run short and still provide a service with the occasional £550 paid out instead of employing the correct number of ATCOs)

Prospect is going to start asking questions of us soon, we should all start thinking of what we want and what we're prepared to do for it.

[Nimmer]

Why would management offer us more than 1.5%, the origional offer??

They know the membership is week, (you only need to look at the pension ballot to realise that), 30% didn't vote, remember?? What will people do if we don't get a decent rise, strike??? Can't see that, after all I know we don't need public support, but you can see the quotes from the press and on TV, Top of the scale band 5 pay(£94,000). The golden final salary pension(for the moment), even the new deal is better than some that other workers have got in the country.

Then they will stand outside Swanwick watching all the lovely cars drive in, whilst the strikers stand around the Harrods catering truck!!!!!!

Stop second validations, work to rule, some will most won't.


AAVA agreement I say keep it going, but double it. £1000 after tax per shift, then we get some good money to invest, management have to pay large amounts to get the shifts covered. When it starts costing big bucks, proper staff numbers will appear. You will never stop people doing overtime/AAVA's especially when we have such a huge difference between the top and the bottom of the scale, so lets get a better rate for them.

[eastern wiseguy]

Our toil earned the money, why should we not be properly rewarded.

And you last had anything other than a monopoly was when? NSL live every day with the distinct possibility that a contract coulod be lost.

When the recession bit we were asked to help our customer out...we lost staff..what did you do?

Not every airport is connected to TC...the country extends north of Watford..

[Minesthechevy]

<<< .the country extends north of Watford..>>

Jeez things HAVE changed since I retired.... how does that work then?:8

[Mantovani]

And you last had anything other than a monopoly was when? NSL live every day with the distinct possibility that a contract coulod be lost.

When the recession bit we were asked to help our customer out...we lost staff..what did you do?

Not every airport is connected to TC...the country extends north of Watford.

No one is disputing NSL is operating in a very tough commercial environment but NATS is forbidden from subsidising NSL with NERL profits.

What happens if NSL can't afford to pay a pay rise for the next 5 years and NERL continues to make very healthy profits?

IMHO there are going to be huge tensions.


PS: I'd be wrong to assume that NSL is the only part of NATS to have suffered job cuts.

[Hooligan Bill]

No one is disputing NSL is operating in a very tough commercial environment but NATS is forbidden from subsidising NSL with NERL profits.


Mantovani, you have fallen for the management propoganda. There is no need for NERL to subsidise NSL when the latter makes a profit in it's own right, £15,260.66 per employee in the year to 31st March 2010. The only problem is our beloved cash loving management don't see this as enough.

[Standard Noise]

There's subsidies and there's "subsidies".

[Me Me Me Me]

Why would management offer us more than 1.5%, the origional offer??

They know the membership is week, (you only need to look at the pension ballot to realise that), 30% didn't vote, remember?? What will people do if we don't get a decent rise, strike??? Can't see that, after all I know we don't need public support, but you can see the quotes from the press and on TV, Top of the scale band 5 pay(£94,000). The golden final salary pension(for the moment), even the new deal is better than some that other workers have got in the country.

Then they will stand outside Swanwick watching all the lovely cars drive in, whilst the strikers stand around the Harrods catering truck!!!!!!

Stop second validations, work to rule, some will most won't..

I agree that public sympathy would be hard to maintain in such circumstances. However there are also NATS employees earning below the ~£26k threshold that the government thinks acceptable for people who dont ever work to receive. We don't all drive Ferraris, rake in overtime and still get early go's... That sounded a little bitter... wasnt intended, my point being there are low earners who are worth fighting for.

AAVA agreement I say keep it going, but double it. £1000 after tax per shift, then we get some good money to invest, management have to pay large amounts to get the shifts covered. When it starts costing big bucks, proper staff numbers will appear. You will never stop people doing overtime/AAVA's especially when we have such a huge difference between the top and the bottom of the scale, so lets get a better rate for them

How about just having the correct number of people employed? You pretend your argument is to force an end to AAVA by making it prohibitively expensive, however it's pretty obvious it's just bigger pound signs you're seeing... Stop the AAVAs and stop letting them get away with not staffing correctly.

[Del Prado]

How about just having the correct number of people employed? You pretend your argument is to force an end to AAVA by making it prohibitively expensive, however it's pretty obvious it's just bigger pound signs you're seeing... Stop the AAVAs and stop letting them get away with not staffing correctly.


I agree. NATS are saving millions by not employing the correct number of staff. My sector is 6 down across the unit. 6 x salary, pension and NI contributions must be a saving of nearly a million a year, not to mention the saving in college and training costs.

An increase in the AAVA rate would be another step towards the situation our Spanish colleagues found themselves in.

[Nimmer]

You will never stop people doing AAVA's or overtime. As you said people see the £££££ signs!!!!

Especially those on the bottom ends of the scale, someone has already stated some people in NATS are on £26000 a year. This was the system and pay scales we all voted for. Management know this, and they love the fact that they are getting a service cheaply.

Thus to get full staffing, something I want to achieve also, you need to force managements hand. Make AAVA's/ overtime extremely expensive, very attractive to staff, but will force management to recruit and validate more controllers.

Meanwhile money can be earned, to invest.... and compensate for the end of the final salary pension scheme!!!!, Its coming!!!

[ToweringCu]

Must be a different NATS to the one I work for. The NATS that employs me has area course grads holding all over the place because Swanwick and Prestwick can't fit their training in. The NATS I work for is also continually recruiting ATCOs. Better get an early night I've got an AAVA tomorrow.

[climbwithagoodrate]

There may be lots of trainees holding, but the validation success rate is barely keeping up with the retirement rate...

[Pheasant Plucker]

Can someone please explain why it is in our interests as ATCOs to be fully staffed??

I thought a commodity that was in short supply was more valuable!

[Standard Noise]

It's not.


It is!

[novation]

I hear the latest pay offer made by management on Monday this week was so insulting that our reps walked out of the meeting!

[Roffa]

Giving the upcoming changes to the pensions regime and the extra tax we'll all likely be paying we probably don't want any more pay rises!

[bananablog]

I think that we get paid too much :eek:

[rab-k]

Yeah, me too :ok:

So long as our shareholders can get their nice big dividend and certain people, both past and present, can get their nice big bonus, then I'm only too happy to earn less in real terms next year for shifting more traffic than I did this.

Hell, I might even stop doing AAVAs next year as I'll be sure to feel so disgustingly rich; a symptom no doubt of my being so grossly overpaid!

Excuse me, but I suddenly feel a bit... :yuk:


:hmm:

[10W]

Giving the upcoming changes to the pensions regime and the extra tax we'll all likely be paying we probably don't want any more pay rises!

Folks at the larger units might want to also watch they don't go over £100K this tax year if they do AAVAs. You start to lose your Personal Tax Allowance after that figure.

From the tax year 2010-11, if your income is over £100,000, your Personal Allowance is reduced by half of the amount, £1 for every £2 you have over that limit. If your income is large enough, your Personal Allowance will be reduced to nil. This £100,000 limit applies irrespective of your age.



You could then be liable to 40% tax on up to £6475 of your hard earned dosh which you weren't before. And the Revenue folks will also 'assume' that you will be earning over £100K for the next tax year (2011-2012) and require you to submit an annual return. :*

[AREA52]

You are right that you will effectively be taxed at 60% for the next £12950 after you pass £100000 income. However, the £100000 is after allowable tax free elements (eg pension contributions, childcare vouchers etc) and is therefore still a few years off for those in the negotiated grades.

[10W]

Not that far off, and possibly even achievable by some.

ATCO2 Band 5 LCE @ £87219
Shift Allowance - £5543

Add in some OJTI and Assessor/Verifier payments and then it would then depend how many normal AAVAs and how many 'Golden' AAVAs for iFACTS were carried out :ok:

[Mantovani]

Put it like that and I pity the tax Paul Barron our departing CEO had to pay on his Fat Cat bonuses.

Ditto Lawrence Hoskins.

Let's face it; if we can't even get an inflation pay rise this year after the huge profits and obscene bonuses then we might as well give up.

[5milesbaby]

Have heard that yesterday's negotiations lasted less than half an hour before the union walked out again. November's meeting also cancelled.

[250 kts]

FFS playing into managements hands perfectly.

Ready to ballot for industrial action then?

[notatthecollege]

so lets get a decision out of management and when we all realise how cr@p it is lets get a ballot underway and walk. We have taken enough over the past few years to not take it anymore...

Time to stand together.

[fisbangwollop]

I remember the ATSA's 6 week strike back in 78...that took balls but to be honest cant see the ATCO's doing the same!!

[250 kts]

I suspect that negotiations will continue for a while yet. It is only 2 weeks till Prospect holds its' annnual conference. No doubt reps will be given a full briefing and asked to consult with their members as to what the feeling is over whatever is on the table at that time.

so lets get a decision out of management and when we all realise how cr@p it is lets get a ballot underway and walk. We have taken enough over the past few years to not take it anymore...


Actually compared with the rest of the aviation industry we have been pretty insulated from things so far and long may that continue. Potentially a far bigger fight over ownership may be just round the corner with the government having now narrowed down which investment bank will deal with any sell off.:eek:

[notatthecollege]

But if we didn't stand together and fight over issues such as the pension what chance have we got of standing together over anything else?

Come on Guys and Girls, regeardless of what has happened we need to stand up and stand together. If that is regarding pay then so be it, it will allow us to unite ahead of any other 'bigger' issues that may be coming our way...

[novation]

250 kts - You seem to be saying we should keep our powder dry for the bigger issue; PPP anyone? Maybe if we hadn't been such a soft touch then we wouldn't be facing this situation now.

PS And maybe our pension scheme would have remained untouched!

[250 kts]

Not at all. I just think the negotiating process need to be allowed some time to come to a logical end. One side walking out does not mean that negotiations have completely broken down.

Do you really think there will be an overwhelming walk out over 1% or 2% or so around Christmas??

Should there ever be a need for industrial action then it has to be something that will be guaranteed to get at least 80% out of the door. Anything less than that and management have us just where they want us.

Remember there is a voluntary scheme that people can always decide not to participate in to let management know their feelings.

[Ceannairceach]

PCS this week, on behalf of the ATSAs, were offered 1.5% on basic pay only - and from 1st April 2011.

PCS have therefore walked out of negotiations with a further meeting not planned until 10th December or thereabouts.

[SensibleATCO]

PCS offered 1.5% ?
Surely these are Joint negotiations through the NTUS. Or have management already managed divide the two sides, ATCO'S and others :eek:

[Ceannairceach]

I'm only aware of the PCS side of things at the moment, I didn't want to comment about the ATCO TU side until I knew the facts. But one would presume NTUS is still "Working Together".

[Me Me Me Me]

It's a completely joint offer, rejected by the joint TU side... It's just that PCS seem to be more active in their communication of it.

I can see this offer going to ballot with a recommendation to reject. I'll certainly reject another pay cut... but I really don't see a mass walk-out happening.

[Lookatthesky]

Remember there is a voluntary scheme that people can always decide not to participate in to let management know their feelings.

But, the people who will make the most noise about not being paid enough will never compromise more reddies in their back pockets will they? :ok:

[Mantovani]

There is no need to go on strike and lose money.

NATS are driving through huge change very quickly and fairly smoothly using Working Together. NATS' profit are directly linked to the efficiencies Working Together has brought the company.

Look at the problems the Airline Group have in their own companies trying to bring in staffing efficiencies.

If they don't give us a pay rise at least equal to inflation then we should just ballot to cease Working Together completely.

Quid pro quo.

[Me Me Me Me]

If they don't give us a pay rise at least equal to inflation then we should just ballot to cease Working Together completely.


I'm no fan of the WT stuff... but that wont happen unless a motion goes through conference. Look at what BA did to the TU when they didn't dot all the i's and cross all the t's in their balloting process....

I don't want to see strikes... To me the best and easiest way to force management's hand is work to rule. Yes, that would mean no AAVAs.

[Lon More]

I remember the ATSA's 6 week strike back in 78...that took balls but to be honest cant see the ATCO's doing the same!!

and oh how we laughed when the ATCOs quickly decided they could do without the ATCAs.
Fred Karno couldn't have done it better.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose (There's a hint in there}

[250 kts]

If they don't give us a pay rise at least equal to inflation then we should just ballot to cease Working Together completely.

They'll be absolutely cra**ing themselves over that one then.

There is no need to go on strike and lose money.

Pretty naive I would suggest if you are really serious about a rise in excess of 5% ie RPI+

Me, Me, Me is correct in that a good start would be no one doing any voluntary extra duties. Remember they really need people to do them if iFACTS and EFD are to be introduced successfully next year.

[fisbangwollop]

Just a para from a longer article I have just found and posted on the NATS for sale forum....

At the same time, Deakin hopes to take the opportunity to double the work force's shareholding to 10% to better engage the 5,000 workers and ensure their interests are more closely aligned with the company's goals. Even though 80% to 90% of its employees are unionized, NATS hasn't suffered industrial action since 1981.

[5milesbaby]

250 kts, I think iFacts is writing its own course now and nothing they say or do on the 4th floor can alter that much. If it doesn't work then we can't use it. :ouch:

Me Me Me Me:
Yes, that would mean no AAVAs.
I haven't done any for years and will not do any no matter how much the money would come in handy. I KNOW there are some that simply will not give up AAVA's no matter what. Totally not what I like but that is their own prerogative. :ugh:

[250 kts]

I think iFacts is writing its own course now and nothing they say or do on the 4th floor can alter that much

But if people who have committed to the local deal and have done their bit by volunteering the days, volunteered no more then it would be in trouble I suspect.

[radarman]

It's a bit naive to talk about refusing to volunteer for extra duties. From my experience nobody truly volunteers, as in going to management and saying 'Please Boss, the MATS pt 2 needs rewriting, I'd love to do it'.

What happens is that management asks you to rewrite the MATS Pt 2, usually with a sweetener like 'You're the only one I can rely on', or 'It will give you a broader insight into ATC management'. Refusing such a request is not simply refusing to volunteer - you are effectively saying 'Nob off', and you will probably find that EG's and days off suddenly disappear.

Never forget that management, however inept, always has the upper hand.

[250 kts]

radarman,

I'm specifically talking about AAVAs.

Without them NATS will really struggle to introduce the changes they have promised next year.

Remember this thread is about Pay. There are options to a ballot that was suggested recently.

[Greebson]

Fish
For sweetener read bung and, 'I'm an ATCO, look free cash I'll have some of that'.

[Ceannairceach]

Our pay negotiations and any clout we once had are grossly undermined by a greedy, selfish, divided and apathetic workforce.

And I mean greedy in the sense of reluctance to work to rule, and ready acceptance of company bribes to sign terms and conditions away.

I'm expecting our eventual deal to be another shafting to be honest.

[fisbangwollop]

Talk about NATS dividing the workforce....just heard today plans afoot to reduce ATSA pay by up to 30%!!!!!!!

[Geffen]

ATSA pay reduction, criminal. Allegedly BB Atsa's sent letters without PCS being aware! Everyone in NATS needs to be concerned about this.

[eastern wiseguy]

Everyone in NATS needs to be concerned about this.


But they won't be. The standing together as a unified force is not our strong point. This company has a well and truly divided workforce (going back as far as regrading posts from ATCO2 to 3 around about 1987)...albeit with loads of dry powder. I predict we will roll over once again.

[Roffa]

If this is factual I would hope working together is consigned to the dustbin and a company wide ballot for industrial action follows closely behind, with Prospect strongly recommending a vote in favour.

[Ceannairceach]

Yup.

Instant ATSA pay cuts of between £1,000 and £17,000 were on the cards at one point, if you believe PCS. NATS management however, spin a completely opposing line, explaining that PCS were always involved etc etc.

All in all, if you're an ATSA it doesn't bode well, with a time and motion study just around the corner.

I know we've been saying that for years, but this time the facts are there to back the statement up.

[RVR600]

<<If this is factual I would hope working together is consigned to the dustbin and a company wide ballot for industrial action follows closely behind, with Prospect strongly recommending a vote in favour.>>


Not a chance.

The time to stand together has come and gone. Apart from which, why would prospect recommend industrial action for something which is effectively a lost cause. If the best we could do was raise an eyebrow and tut when we got stuffed (by the company and the people who could not be @rsed voting) on pension and pay deals, then there is no chance anybody is going to be donning donkey jackets and rushing out to man the braziers this winter.

And shame on me for thinking like that, but be honest, how many of you would be truely willing to take industrial action in order to save your ATSA colleagues jobs?

The faceless few, past and present, who sit up top in their ivory tower and run a sythe through peoples careers and lives, seem to be doing very nicely, thank you very much. http://www.nats.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/NATS_ARAA_2010.pdf

Looking at some of the bloated renumeration packages it makes me wonder how many ATSA's kids could be kept in school uniforms or keep food on the table or pay the mortgage/rent with just a fraction of what these guys earn (and I use that term loosely)

[novation]

Forgive me for being naive, but before things get as far as balloting for industrial action couldn't the union start playing hardball in the short term. Now I know plenty of us take part in the AVA scheme especially at the moment at the enhanced rate; myself included. Personally I see nothing wrong in taking part in the scheme but I also realise how much the company is relying on this. If, HOWEVER, the union was to recommend to its members not to take part then I for one would immediately stop doing them. I also believe many others would too. There's no point frowning on people who do overtime unless PROSPECT set the initiative. Come on PROSPECT, grow some balls and generate some solidarity!

[Ceannairceach]

At the moment I can think of at least one unit that'd come to a rapid and grinding halt if the ATSAs undertook an overtime ban.

But then, they'd also have to give up their early go's and extended breaks in order to work to rule. And I sense, amongst some of them, they wouldn't be willing to do any of those three things.

ATSAs - you really need to help yourselves and act whilst what little powder you have left is dry.....

[DC10RealMan]

"We must hang together,or assuredly we shall hang separately"

Benjaman Franklin at the signing of the American Declaration of Independence

[fisbangwollop]

Cean....But then, they'd also have to give up their early go's and extended breaks in order to work to rule.

I think you will find at our unit early go's and extended breaks dont exist for the ATSA's.......:confused::confused::confused:

[Ceannairceach]

They do at some of the other units.

[055166k]

Of course we could try to help improve NATS' revenue stream.....putting them into a better position [and frame of mind ] to negotiate. Route Charge Avoidance is at epidemic levels.......certainly at Swanwick we all know.....operators file minimum UK mileage but pilots ask for the opposite, knowing that no increase in charges will result once airborne. This happens every night/quiet hours/weekend and has done for years. The loss in revenue runs into £Millions.
Why? well ATCO's have not traditionally paid much attention to the revenue side of the business......coupled with a desire to get traffic from A to B as efficiently as possible. Operators will continue as long as the loophole exists.....ATCO's will continue until someone tells them not to.

[Radarspod]

well ATCO's have not traditionally paid much attention to the revenue side of the business......coupled with a desire to get traffic from A to B as efficiently as possible. Operators will continue as long as the loophole exists.....ATCO's will continue until someone tells them not to.

Speaking as an engineer, superb comment! We've been pressed for years to find revenue streams and plug leaks - didn't realise we had potential revenue gushing out at the coalface and everyone ignoring it! :E

[eglnyt]

I always understood that the NATS route charging system takes flight plan data from NAS. If they are amending flight plans en-route and those amendments are entered into NAS then they might still get charged. Of course if nobody amends the flight plan in NAS the route charging system won't know they didn't fly their original flight plan.

[1996]

Route charges are collected by Eurocontrol and are based, as far as I'm aware, on the flight plan in the system 30 mins before departure.

So for every Canary Islands to EGCC flight, as an example, which files via Irish airspace but then is given a re-route once airborne via BHD, NATS will only ever be paid for the original LIFFY-EGCC route.

Great system eh?

[121decimal375]

I thought the Eurocontrol charging system had nothing to do with the flight plan but the great circle route?

[Del Prado]

interesting piece on PPP from 2002 (http://www.david-morrison.org.uk/nats/nats-debt-doubled.htm)

[5milesbaby]

Wasn't there another "meeting" last Friday? Anyone heard how long this one lasted and if any progress has been made at all??

[radar707]

Dear all

We would like to update you on the latest joint meeting on pay held between Management and the Trade Unions on Friday 10 December.

At the outset of the meeting, Management made an improved offer in the light of sectional discussions identifying changes that could be introduced on a sectional basis to increase efficiency and flexibility in our business. This offer was for a one year deal of a 2% increase to pay and all pay related allowances, effective from 1 January 2011. The offer is conditional on reaching agreement on a satisfactory principle on the provision of MET (meteorological services), consistent with NSL achieving cost savings.

The Trade Unions response was that this offer was totally unacceptable given the August RPI figure of 4.7% and that only a significantly improved offer would be considered.

Management stressed that NSL could not afford an RPI deal in light of the commercial challenges they faced on contracts and the resulting impact this could have on jobs.

There remains a significant gap between our positions. Both sides agreed to increase the frequency of meetings in an attempt to resolve the issue.

The next ‘core’ meeting on pay will take place in January. We will let you know the outcome of those discussions.

[anotherthing]

Interesting that one of our 'poor' customers (BA) are reportedly offering their pilots a 5.9% 2 year pay deal...


Management stressed that NSL could not afford an RPI deal in light of the commercial challenges they faced on contracts and the resulting impact this could have on jobs.
Although NERL and NSL are 2 entities, are NATS not still 'one company'? If not, where do the Corporate staff sit with regards to a pay deal that encompases everyone or are they, for the purposes of this, conveniently attached to the profitable NERL?

That statement is nicely worded to engender division of the workforce. It implies that NERL can afford a larger payrise, but that NSL performance is effectively capping everyones award :=. A nice attempt at creating resentment and division.

[Me Me Me Me]

Although NERL and NSL are 2 entities, are NATS not still 'one company'? If not, where do the Corporate staff sit with regards to a pay deal that encompases everyone or are they, for the purposes of this, conveniently attached to the profitable NERL?


Corporate staff are situated in all 3 companies... Yes, three. Some, like the legal team, safety etc are not NERL or NSL but in fact, NATS. :8

[250 kts]

A nice attempt at creating resentment and division.


An attempt maybe but discussing this at work yesterday there was complete understanding that NERL and NSL need to stick together.

At least NATS didn't try to seperate us even more by only paying the latest dividend to NERL staff having stated that the dividend came from NERL. :rolleyes:

[terrain safe]

250kts please don't give them ideas!

[novation]

Prospect say "NO" to a 1 year deal from January of 2% on pay and allowances; at last! Is this a fighting spirit being rekindled? Solidarity brothers!!

[Mantovani]

After Paul Barron's pay off and the extraordinary dividend payout to the Airline Group the offer to Staff was little more than a piss take.

[25check]

That statement is nicely worded to engender division of the workforce. It implies that NERL can afford a larger payrise, but that NSL performance is effectively capping everyones award . A nice attempt at creating resentment and division.


And if an agreement comes down to depending on the the stated 'agreement on provision of met' it is a nice way to engender division between the ATSAs that do the met and everyone else - well done management:ugh:

[On the beach]

For a moment there, I thought I had mistakenly clicked on the Spanish ATC thread!

[DC10RealMan]

I would just like to clarify something.
My understanding is that the size of the pay rise (if any) would be dependant upon one group of trade unionists agreeing to undertake the duties of other trade unionists which would allow the management to save money and increase their management bonuses by making the latter group redundant.
I presume my understanding of the situation is wrong or am I missing something?

[Standard Noise]

Nope, you've pretty much covered it there except for the fact that the union whose members make up the 'latter group' are happy to roll over and be tickled.

[DC10RealMan]

I think the going rate is thirty pieces of silver.

[pikman]

For further clarification it also means that the majority of members would be voting to saddle the minority of us at regional units with the additional task of doing the MET for free whilst allowing the company to shed numerous ATSA posts.
I might add that for those of us that already do nightshift MET contingency to cover ATSA sickness it would effectively be a pay cut as we would lose the enhancement that we get for doing this.
Don't think I'll be in too much of a hurry to vote in favour of this! :ugh:

[Gonzo]

Woah woah woah, so where's this agreement that we're meant to be voting on regarding met contingency?

Was this the management proposal that was rejected by the union negotiating team?

The usual rumour + gossip x exaggeration at work I see....

[25check]

Yeah, but was it rejected so quickly because of the paltry amount or because of the conditions? If the offer had been 4%, would things be different?

[Mantovani]

The inflation rate rise needs to be the base rise.

Anything else has to be on top of that.

[thinkofdolphins]

Agreeing to do met while plugged in opens more cans of worms than is probably realised. As most met screens face away from aprons and runways (they don't actually want the ATSA's to see what's going on, we might prove useful) you will need to turn away from the safety critical area of responsibility. So when the controller is fighting with samos and a vehicle trundles onto the runway unnoticed, controller in the tower on their own (as getting ATSA's off nights is clearly a management desire) and the a/c short finals doesn't spot it either, then what happens? Let's hope NATS legal are on their A game that day in court! There's penny pinching and there's retrograde safety steps. The two don't mix

[250 kts]

The inflation rate rise needs to be the base rise.


Why? An inflation matching rise for nothing may just be impossible especially for NSL. Not good but a fact of life I'm afraid.

[LostThePicture]

An inflation matching rise for nothing may just be impossible especially for NSL.

Why? Are you saying we should just accept the fact that NATS has negotiated contracts on which the margins are so skinny that they're now, in the current inflationary environment, becoming potentially unaffordable for the company as a whole? Not our problem, I'm afraid.

Every year the pay negotiations come round, management say they have no money. This is how it's always been, and probably always will be. But given the recent history of record profits, sub-inflation pay rises and an incredible dividend policy, we're probably entitled to a bit more than the offer on the table.

LTP

[anotherthing]

I reeved an e-mail yesterday (as did everyone else in NATS), where the CEO stated that unlike many other ANSPs, NATS had an extremely good year with particular emphasis on hard work and excellent performance by staff.

Deserves a decent pay rise I would say...

[eastern wiseguy]

Why? An inflation matching rise for nothing may just be impossible especially for NSL.

But no worries for NERL. NSL guys are loving being in the real (commercial) world.

Divide and conquer eh? Thanks for the support 250kts.:hmm::hmm:

[250 kts]

eastern,

Why the sarcastic look?

Not a matter of support. As I said a fact of life. Not sure what you expect anyone in NERL can do about the airport side of NATS.

Unless of course we're all happy to take a large pay rise and see a couple of the airport contracts get lost?

[eastern wiseguy]

250 what happened to the one NATS that the union want to negotiate for?.

If the Met comes up as a part of the negotiation it will not impinge on you one iota but I bet most of you will happily vote yes if it means a few quid extra(never mind the crap that this will rain down on the ATSA's)

This company is divided...not by management...they have very little to do...we achieve it nicely ourselves.

I can hardly wait to retire from this bloody job.

[opnot]

250kts
how about a lower rise to make sure airport contracts are retained and people keep their jobs. Life is great if you work in monopoly, money is nothing, especially when Swanwick staff can turn up for avaa when the airspace is closed (ash)

[250 kts]

I'm getting mixed messages here.

Are you guys in NSL suggesting an RPI pay rise should be the aim at the expense of a contract? Because I certainly didn't suggest that.

I was the one challenging the fact that RPI should happen no matter what.

especially when Swanwick staff can turn up for avaa when the airspace is closed (ash)

Don't tar us all with the same brush.

[Flybywyre]

NATS………….that is the company that we work for.
Forget this nonsense about NSL and NERL being separate. They are not.
The company is NATS.
This is the same company that has just had one of its best years and has made substantial profits.
In fact it has been so good that the CEO has sent staff an email stating how good things are and has acknowledged this “incredible achievement” that “everyone” has played a role in.
Everyone in NATS that is, he did not differentiate between NSL and NERL. He did not have to as we are all one company…….. NATS.
NATS is the company that will be sold next year. Not NSL or NERL………..NATS.
Can I suggest that the NTUS, in the current pay negotiations, remember that we are all NATS, which I believe to be the criteria that Baron and Hoskins used when awarding themselves nearly £2 million and £1.2 million respectively year ending 2010.

[Conspiracy Theories]

just wanted to mention with regards to pay......i believe in NATS......(one company) if NATS does well and dividends are thrown about then all the workforce should have a pay rise.
Why mention NERL and NSL? why mention NERL is funding the £20m dividend?
I think management are playing this very well coz what will happen next year is NATS will get sold, and the airlines are looking to get out of the shares as well. I am worried for who might come in and buy the company coz the first thing they will look at is where could they save money and NSL may not be a viable option to keep unless as mentioned, contracts are raised to keep the airports.
It will be tough times for NATS (not NERL or NSL), and im sure management will do their best at justifying more bonuses. They are the ones that should get a basic wage for the job they do. where has this bonus culture come from? my wage isn't based on a basic wage and for every aircraft i control a day over 100 i get a bonus......they should get a wage to do their job.....none of this bonus stuff. (it seems regardless of whether they do well or not they get a bonus anyway).

[ZOOKER]

The last 2 posts are very good.
NATS. 'A world Leader In Air Traffic management"
NOT 2 world Leaders,- just the one. One company, (or whatever it is), but 2 loads of Managers. A bit like Cheshire County Council.
Why have one management monolith when you can have 2, AND AT TWICE THE COST!
Good to see that the latest Prospect rag is in fighting form though.
The reality is that financially, the country is f***ed.
Bankers, and politicians have done damage that will take years to repair.
Closer to home,
Non-aviation people (with their management bull****speak) have driven a spike into what was once a great organization to work for. As played out on these fora,over recent years, they have succeeded with aplomb.
Even more frightening is the fact that what has happened is not just confined to NATS.
Forget Dr cable and The Daily Telegraph, We need to sit down, work out where we are going, why, and how we are going to get there.

Oh, by the way. Your man James screwed your pension up 2 years ago. Oddly enough, he's now one of the trustees of the Pension fund.
How did that happen?

[ZOOKER]

Gonzo,
best leave Meteorology to qualified Meteorologists.
you know how it is.....
'jack of all trades, master of none'. :E

[Ceannairceach]

Firstly, I hope whoever negotiated the new canteen prices is involved in the pay negotiations. 40% rise anyone?

Secondly one trusts that, when the company is willing to pay fortunes to have it's senior managers at various units attend a "course" this last week which consisted almost solely of manic hand clapping, running on the spot and prancing around the room (oh for a video clip...), it would be willing to reward it's employees lower down the prancing/clapping/jogging chain with a rise commensurate with their actual work-related hard work and effort :E

Or perhaps the lunatics really have taken over the asylum at long last. Cup of tea for 40% more than it was yesterday anyone?

[Cuddles]

Canteen prices have gone up 40%? That'll be a shot across the bows for all recipients of LVs then.............

[BDiONU]

Firstly, I hope whoever negotiated the new canteen prices is involved in the pay negotiations. 40% rise anyone?
Cup of tea for 40% more than it was yesterday anyone?
Hhhhmm, bit of balance needed on this post! Tea went up from 20p to 25p and the joint NATS/TUS statement on the rises follows:
NATS/NTUS have responded to comments raised on new catering prices as follows :

We can confirm that the catering subsidy hasn’t been cut (it has actually increased). As announced at the start of the new catering arrangements, the catering service (including the subsidy) is jointly managed by a NATS/NTUS team and we are required to keep within the annual subsidy budget.

When setting the prices, NTUS and FM continue to balance cost and value across the range of items offered to staff.

The majority of prices have not been increased since August 2009, with a reduction in July 2010, despite the underlying rises in food costs that you may have seen reported in the media.

In determining the new prices the VAT increase was taken into consideration. Unlike products off the shelf at the supermarkets the food sold in any restaurant attracts VAT, therefore the VAT rate is applied in NATS facilities.

Non-core items prices have not been published as these will vary from time to time in line with local supplier costs, however the current prices will always be on display in the restaurant.

We believe that current food item prices continue to offer NATS staff excellent value for money.


BD

[Ceannairceach]

So, to correct my post in the interests of BD's balance; tea prices have risen by 25%, not the 40% originally stated. 25% pay rise anyone?

Yes, tea is just one item, of a low overall price, but canteen prices at my unit have increased across the board (sandwiches up by between 35% and 50%, hot food up by between 30% and 60%, soft drinks up by 30%) as you may have noticed yourself on one of your visits BD :E

I don't really care what sort of spin management/NTUS put on it, or on anything else for that matter. A price rise is a price rise, even if in the grand scheme of things it's mere bagatelle.

Really, the canteen price increases were a tongue in cheek opening gambit to my post - it was the indefensible and grossly wasteful happy clappy, lets all dance around the room at a nice hotel then tell everyone 8 facts about ourselves etc etc, course for senior managers I was really having a wee pop at.

[LEGAL TENDER]

Chocamento™ is good.

[fisbangwollop]

OK then I guess that's a nice wee deviation on the pay debate....I guess we will have time for a few more deviations before a firm decent offer is on the table....dont hold your breath folks!!

[anotherthing]

Doesn't make much difference wrt pay (though it does mean that financiers believe in the viability of the company which should be a good thing for the workforce) - what it does mean is that the recent £30M dividend has done its job by making the company look good, thus increasing the share value.

All good signs to any potential buyer...

Also, this is just a value put on by the 'experts' and not derived through shareholder activity (buying and selling) as the company has not had a full flotation, it isn't quite the same as other shares.

[Standard Noise]

though it does mean that financiers believe in the viability of the company which should be a good thing for the workforce

That should read '......though it does mean that financiers believe in the viability of the company which should be a good thing for the NERL workforce.......'
Let's not kid ourselves that NSL (or a large part of it) will survive the transition to the private business world under new owners.

[Ceannairceach]

Although the latest news "from the top" is that they want to see an end to the NSL/NERL split and somewhat of a re-merge.

[ZOOKER]

Excellent.
Can I have my job back then please?

[Ceannairceach]

Depends what it was? :E

[ZOOKER]

The answer's 'no' then. :{:}

[Ceannairceach]

You are Paul Barron AICM pay rise.

[ZOOKER]

Ah, The Red Barron.
Whatever happened to him Ted? :E

[Ceannairceach]

He spent those millions he walked away with (£1.2m for those who would like a reminder) and fell on slightly harder times it would seem... Bolton, Horwich & Chorley Wedding Photographer (http://www.paulbarronphotography.co.uk/)

[ZOOKER]

Ah, Bolton, Horwich and Chorley!
It's a long way to travel from Lincoln, there Ted.
Has he 'relocated' then? :E

[BDiONU]

Yes, tea is just one item, of a low overall price, but canteen prices at my unit have increased across the board (sandwiches up by between 35% and 50%, hot food up by between 30% and 60%, soft drinks up by 30%) as you may have noticed yourself on one of your visits BD :E
Visits? Gosh over the past 4 years I've been working and living at PC ;-) Yes prices have gone up but still a lot cheaper than you'd pay in town or even nipping across to Belchers for a Scotch Pie. And the quality and choice (especially soups) at PC is superior to CTC, no crowds either.

BD

[ZOOKER]

"I've been working and living at PC".
:}:}:} :E:E:E:

[Ceannairceach]

I trust the current inflatory joy will be noted by those from NTUS doing the negotiating...

[alfie1999]

Rpi: 4.8%

This figure is for December so you can expect another jump when the VAT rise works it way through.

[Mantovani]

Am I the only one who finds the CEO’s repeated pleas on his Blog to keep costs down a little insulting after the millions of pounds given to Barron & Hoskins and the multi-million pound dividend payouts to the Airline Group?

The money for a decent pay rise is clearly there, it’s about time the negotiations were stepped up and the staff given a vote on any offer.

[oneowl]

Indeed I do find it a little insulting. Add to this the fact that the introduction of EFD is going to make my job significantly more difficult I think a descent pay rise is the least we deserve. I'm sure the people that a forcing this heap of sh:mad:t through will be handsomely rewarded in some form or other!:yuk:

[Standard Noise]

The money for a decent pay rise is clearly there...
Correction, it was there, they gave it away as dividends rather than give it to those who deserve it!

[Mantovani]

Correction, it was there, they gave it away as dividends rather than give it to those who deserve it!

No. This year's pay rise will be funded out of money earned this year. If they don't give us a proper pay rise then that will mean yet more money in dividends for the Airline Group.

Who do you think is behind this drive to keep wages low?

[Standard Noise]

No idea, all I know is that they've finally realised that the 'NATS sets the market rate' argument about salaries is way off the mark and they've moved onto 'what will our customers think if we hand out big pay rises?'

This year's pay rise will be funded out of money earned this year.
Oh I'm sure they have an excuse all lined up not to part with the readies (see above for a few).
It's all crap.

[Weirdo Earthtorch]

...I think a descent pay rise is ...

I think you've hit the nail on the head there, oneowl. :{

[Me Me Me Me]

Without wishing to dampen the enthusiasm to reject anything other than a decent pay rise - I'm all for that... I too find it insulting to be told there is no money for a pay rise in these tough times while, at the same time, be told we are a healthy, profitable company that can afford to pay large dividends more than once a year.

However! Linking the money spent on the dividend(s) to a pay deal is misleading. Dividends are one-off payments with no future liability. Pay rises incur not only the cost of implementation and back-dating, but also an increase in future liability for every year until we all retire, both on monthly salary and on potential redundancy costs (obviously in their thinking). If we were all happy to take a nice wedge as a lump sum, rather than a salary rise, I'm sure money would be found - nobody in their right mind would accept though... Would they?? :rolleyes:

[Mantovani]

Not for Profit is dead. Paul Barron said so and the company accounts scream so.

The company is making fantastic profits and we need to secure our rightful share.

After all our hard work the 2% on the table is an insult.

As for lump sums, yeah why not; banks make big profits and the people who make those profits for them get nice big fat bonuses. Why should we miss out on those?

NATS is making big profits :D

[Dan Dare]

Having accepted a less than RPI rise last time round then we should not accept less than RPI again. Don't forget that anything more than RPI + 0.5% is no longer pensionable. It would have a knock-on affect for the rest of our lives!

If we believe official government RPI figures they can be found here (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/tsdataset.asp?vlnk=229&More=N&All=Y)

They show that we would need an unconditional increase of 6.8% just to stay level with our 2008 real buying power.

If they insist on a multi-year deal then anything less than RPI + 0.5% with no strings attached to help redress the previous loss would still be a slap in the face.

[Ceannairceach]

I hear that the best offer thus far is between 3% and 3.5% and linked to various task and demarcation changes on the NSL side of the business of which NTUS are having none. Hence the current stalemate.

Anyone more in the know than me care to shed some more light on the current situation?

[eastern wiseguy]

I hear that the best offer thus far is between 3% and 3.5% and linked to various task and demarcation changes on the NSL side of the business of which NTUS

That'll be ATCO's (NSL) taking on the MET at night then.

Decent pay offer gets made.....thrown out to members to vote on (PCS don't seem to be making too much noise for their grade)...how many at NPC and Swanwick will vote yes (after all it won't affect them)? Deal accepted...more distraction for ATCO's (NSL only..nothing for the centres to see here...keep moving.....ATSA grade (NSL) stuffed)

Watch this space......they are masters at divide and conquer .

Perhaps I am just old and cynical.

[ZOOKER]

Perhaps MET could take on ATC duties in return?
Saw ATCOs doing MET way back. Many observations missed due to traffic situation/other ATC issues, etc.
How long before ATCOs have to Hoover the tower on nights, saving on cleaning costs?

[Mantovani]

NATS is making fantastic profits :D:D:D

Inflation is touching 5%

The Union shouldn't consider any conditions whatsoever unless the offer is over 5%.

The Unions need to get the workers in on the bonuses thing too.

Why should managers be the only ones taking home wheel barrows every year?

[ZOOKER]

Mantovani,
Great post, shame about some of your orchestral arrangements though.
The Union are getting the workers on the bonuses thing.
According to one Union official writing in a recent GATCO magazine, the role of the ATCO is changing.
Controllers will soon be 'airspace managers'.
= BONUSES FOR ALL!

[Gonzo]

Anyone who thinks that ATCO at unit A will get to vote on a pay deal that's linked to an ATCO at unit B doing a certain task should talk to their union rep.

[eastern wiseguy]

Our union?.....thats right....would never happen.....dry powder.....everybody out or roll over and tickle our tummies.

[DC10RealMan]

I would have thought that there is an ethical dimension to this as well (agreeing to do additional responsibilities to allow the management to make colleagues redundant and make even more profit)

[anotherthing]

It isn't a new tactic. When home to duty payments were up for scrapping the ploy was that if there was a vote to agree to end the payments, every employee would receive a backhander.

Of course those who did not qualify for such payments were obviously going to vote 'yes' to scrapping, as they would receive money for nothing!

[250 kts]

Our union?.....thats right....would never happen.....dry powder.....everybody out or roll over and tickle our tummies.

That's a bit rich coming from someone at a unit that cant manage to get itself a union representative.

[Disillusioned]

Word on the street is that the new offer is a sigificant increase on the 2% offered previously....But one person's significant is another person's derisory.

If they have come back with a 3-3.5% offer, then I'll be voting NO to that (and hopefully 51% of others will too), and we can see how NATS stew without AAVA's this Summer.

I won't be voting yes to any pay offer less than 5%, and even then it depends on the strings attached.

[Mantovani]

I don’t know if the threat of fewer people being willing to work AAVAs will get us a proper pay offer but certainly talking doesn’t seem to be getting us anywhere.

Maybe we need to look across the Channel for some guidance in effective negotiations.

The money is there, the company are making fantastic profits :D:D:D

[250 kts]

The Unions need to get the workers in on the bonuses thing too.


So just on what basis would you consider a bonus appropriate in the operational world? Not having an incident, not filing an overload or no delays on your sector?

Think about it and you'll see how unsustainable it would be.

[ZOOKER]

Just sh*ft the customer, that's how 'bankers' get their bonuses.
P.S. I didn't mean shift the customer. That's what ATCO's do.

[ZOOKER]

Surely if a controller has an overload, those responsible for flow control, er, sorry, 'flow management' (ooh, no, it's now network management), would be held responsible.

[Not Long Now]

Controller's fault for not seeing it coming and applying short term measures to protect himself. Bound to be. No blame culture mind you, so definitely no blame attached to flow, or management.

[10W]

An overload is not necessarily related to traffic levels, monitor values, or whatever. Go and read the definition.

[Roffa]

So just on what basis would you consider a bonus appropriate in the operational world? Not having an incident, not filing an overload or no delays on your sector?

Why would it have to be narrowed down to such a level?

NATS has targets to meet, if it makes them company wide bonus. If it doesn't no bonus.

[eastern wiseguy]

250 knots

That's a bit rich coming from someone at a unit that cant manage to get itself a union representative.

And that should prevent me from having an opinion for what reason?

[Me Me Me Me]

Why would it have to be narrowed down to such a level?

NATS has targets to meet, if it makes them company wide bonus. If it doesn't no bonus.

Bonuses are non-pensionable and non-consolidated. A nice little packet now might feel good, but not so clever when it comes to calculating your pension or redundancy.

We also went down this route with pay deals in the past, having lump sums tied to wishy-washy company-wide targets and it was generally agreed it was a disaster and we shouldn't go there again.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Roffa]

I don't wish for a bonus as part of a pay deal, I was just pointing out that one needn't bore down too deep (as in, for example, to sector level) to see how any bonus might be calculated.

[alfie1999]

Jan Rpi 5.1% (+0.3%)

[250 kts]

And that should prevent me from having an opinion for what reason?

No issue with having an opinion-that's what this site is all about after all. :ok:

[Hootin an a roarin]

For comment please

From a reliable source.

I thought that at the last conference we passed 2 motions (it wasn't the curry), 51 and eighty something, which basically stated that if NATS attached any additional tasks for NSL controllers such as undertaking Met Tasks to any pay deal then we would immediately ballot for industrial action or words to that effect.

Whilst we have again knocked the offer back the majority of the union delegation, mainly band 4/5 atcos, allegedly found the offer on the table quite appealing even with the tasks attached. There was also allegedly more percentage pay on offer to band 4/5 atcos even though the majority would not be undertaking these tasks in NERL but who would have the capability of voting this through with a yes vote. Let's face it management aren't stupid.

Why are we even sitting down whilst we have all these strings attached?

If the union wants to keep any credibility or integrity that it may have, it needs to stick to it's own guidelines.

Draw a line in the dry powder now please and stop fa*nying about. :ugh:

[eastern wiseguy]

There was also allegedly more percentage pay on offer to band 4/5 atcos even though the majority would not be undertaking these tasks in NERL but who would have the capability of voting this through with a yes vote.


No that would never happen. We are one NATS.:hmm:

[anotherthing]

...the majority of the union delegation, mainly band 4/5 atcos, allegedly found the offer on the table quite appealing even with the tasks attached. There was also allegedly more percentage pay on offer to band 4/5 atcos...
2 'allegedleys' in one paragraph; not bad... not allegedly, a union rep at my band 5 unit reported back stating that the Union position was that the offer was unacceptable to all. Divide and conquer may well be a tactic they want to use, but lets not make it easy for them by posting comments based on 'alleged' events which will only serve to get peoples backs up.

[Hootin an a roarin]

I am using the term alleged as I do not want to name the reliable source.

Also the reliable source is pretty confident that if they were not at the meeting the rest would have put it out to ballot and we can predict the result.

I am not trying to divide and conquer but to get people's backs up to contact the BEC to reaffirm the strong feeling, if there is one, that we are one NATS and one pay deal for all. Do not even sit down with management if Met is still on the table. We want a pay deal, pure and simple, and can negotiate recompence for any additional duties at a later date once we have agreed the pay deal.

And don't feel embarrased about what the public may think as the bankers don't seem to care, and neither did Baron or Hoskins as they rode off into the sunset with millions.

[Standard Noise]

Whilst we have again knocked the offer back the majority of the union delegation, mainly band 4/5 atcos, allegedly found the offer on the table quite appealing even with the tasks attached.

Maybe I was asleep at conference, but that's not what I remember seeing and hearing. The Area reps, almost to a man/woman, found it hard to believe that part of the pay offer and indicated that they would not be swayed by it at the expense of their colleagues in NSL, for which we are grateful.

As an aside, we had a Met equipment failure last night and it was a PITA even without any traffic. Christ only knows what we'd have done if that happened during the day.

[Hootin an a roarin]

Maybe I was asleep at conference, but that's not what I remember seeing and hearing. The Area reps, almost to a man/woman, found it hard to believe that part of the pay offer and indicated that they would not be swayed by it at the expense of their colleagues in NSL, for which we are grateful.

I am not talking about the conference but the reps involved in the pay meeting last week. Please read my post.
My point was at conference we voted/passed motions not to discuss extra tasks being attached to a pay deal and should not even sit down if that is still on the table.
This needs reiterating to the pay negotiation team and that is what my post was intended to do.

[Hootin an a roarin]

Motion 81 also stated that we should not be entering any negotiations about Met until the relevant units have been adequately consulted.

Anyone from an airport wish to comment if they have been consulted on this?
We haven't at ours.

[Fukit]

As someone who has long held the opinion that the union is a toothless, waste of space, I have to admit to seeing a glimmer of hope here. I'm encouraged by the apparent unity between NSL and NERL which my local rep, whom I believe, assures me is there.
Considering that our freeze last year amounted to approx 5% pay cut and the previous year's deal amounted to approx 2% cut, with current CPI or RPI whichever you prefer to be around 4-5%, anythingthing less is not good enough. As for conditions attached, they can stuff them where 'the monkey hides his nuts.'
My request to the union is DO NOT budge on the ORDER of negotiating things. Pay FIRST, then talk about AAVA's, then.....
For too long I've watched companies take the p*ss with their price hikes combined with record profits and big payout to their execs. While the working man gets squeezed.
:D to the union for now.

[Standard Noise]

Hootin - I did read your post, I was just surprised at what you wrote considering what I saw at Conference, but you live and learn. Problem is, when you are out in the sticks, you're not always party to what goes on down on the Gold Coast.

And no, we haven't been consulted yet either.

[tena-penny]

Hootin

Too right they should not be speaking to management. Be nice if they were speaking to the members though. Confirm or deny and all that. Remember pensions anyone?:confused:

[tena-penny]

hootin

Too right they should not be discussing met at all. Where is the mandate to do that? It's against policy. Be nice if they'd tell us though. Confirm or deny and all that...:confused:

[Mantovani]

Has anyone heard anything about the latest meeting between the Unions and NATS?

It's nearly March. :(

[45 before POL]

we had a notice...meeting for 22nd Feb...but apparently was 23rd Feb. It said no improvement then would be in dispute....however heard nothing come out from our reps....interesting times ahead.....although watch them plead poverty about spiralling fuel costs and uncertainty in the middle east......they are bound to play many of these cards. This doesn't take away inflation at 5% and been there for 8 months and likely to rise...all we ask for is cost of living.

[Me Me Me Me]

I believe management have scheduled some further meeting dates through till late April... So don't expect any resolution soon!

I think there's a growing belief that these are intentional delaying tactics - remember they originally wanted the implementation date deferred from Jan to Apr.

[LostThePicture]

I believe management have scheduled some further meeting dates through till late April... So don't expect any resolution soon!

In which case, the union should not even consider going to the table to discuss such issues as the expiry of the AC substitute LAS agreement, or any new AAVA agreement, until the pay round is sorted to members' satisfaction...

[BeT]

Best of luck with this guys.

We are currently faced with an actual 5.2% reduction in salary at the moment (Eurocontrol) and we may (if lucky) negotiate a pay freeze, which will still be a reduction in real terms.

If that wasnt bad enough we face paying it backdated for 12 months, so about €4.5k back to the employer plus the 5.2% off the salary.

Absolute joke.

[Flybywyre]

:ooh:
Why are they doing that ?
How are they able to do that ??

[BeT]

Because of a system that was agreed to 20 odd years ago.

Our salary is multiplied by a cost of living factor. They say that this year the cost of living in the Netherlands has reduced by 5.2% (politically massaged BS) and so we face the cut, plus these figures are always backdated 12 months, so we have to give 12x5.2% of our salary back too, in a 'lump sum'.

[Not Long Now]

but have you had 20 years of raises if the cost of living index was positive?

[DC10RealMan]

I have just been watching the national news and it seems that the Arriva Trains Wales drivers are on strike today. One of the major issues was that they have only been offered a 12% pay rise over 2 years. It makes nats 2% seem miserly by comparison.

[Me Me Me Me]

Because of a system that was agreed to 20 odd years ago.

Our salary is multiplied by a cost of living factor. They say that this year the cost of living in the Netherlands has reduced by 5.2% (politically massaged BS) and so we face the cut, plus these figures are always backdated 12 months, so we have to give 12x5.2% of our salary back too, in a 'lump sum'.

That's a terrible system if it gets you in to that position...

Our expectations and yours have to be very different though. You are dealing with a cost of living change (in theory) of -5.2%. Ours is +5%

If you managed to get a pay freeze that'd be, on paper a real terms increase of 5.2%. The chances of us getting a 5% increase look pretty slim!

[BeT]

Cost of living hasnt dropped in reality here - like I say its a 'massaged' figure to satisfy certain political targets. Just like everywhere else in Europe the price of everything is going up, up, up.

The figures we have to abide by this year are a drop from 109.x % to 104.x% I believe.

So its only risen very very slowly over the years. This is only the 2nd time its fallen and this time its by an unprecented amount.

Figures talked about suggest an overall loss of around 10% in purchasing 'power' using this system over the years with our salary. Its been a very poor deal in comparison to what we could have negotiated year on year, but admittedly (until now) gave some security.

Thats as I understand it anyways.

[Mantovani]

NATS is not Eurocontrol, NATS is making fantastic profits :D:ok::D:ok::D

[Disillusioned]

I believe management have scheduled some further meeting dates through till late April... So don't expect any resolution soon!

It'll be interesting to see if we get the situation then where there are no AAVAs for late April/May, as even if management & union agree on an offer by the end of April, it still has to be put to the members and voted on, and that will take at least a few weeks.

And I can't imagine for one minute that anyone would be crazy enough to come to work on a day off for the current published overtime rate...especially an ATCO 1

[Lon More]

Imterestingly the people who are ultimately responsible for the decisions re Eurocontrol salaries are the various ministers responsible for atc in their own countries. Interesting to see the double standards sometimes applied

I don't know exactly how the proposed cuts will be introduced (nobody informing us pensioners) but the way it was done to us was a freeze until the lower alleged costs of living caught up with the costs in the Hague

Another case of BOHICA :ugh:

[Disillusioned]

According to the latest info newsletter put out by the union, there are now no further pay meetings scheduled, as management have cancelled the one pencilled in for March 29th, and the only current offer on the table is the old offer of 2%

The word from the union briefings held over the past week or so, is that the union are going to re-introduce AAVAs (not that they have actually gone yet. They have only given notice to withdraw from the agreement) at the current rate, without so much as a fight, because "the company can't function without them". Rubbish. They (management) used this excuse over the pension debacle, then announced £90m profits...They then used this excuse over the last ridiciculous pay deal we accepted, then announced record profits of £100m+. Now they are trying the exact same tactic over the AAVA agreement, with massive profits still rolling in. Do the union, and management expect the members to accept such a lame, ridiculous argument a third time. We are simply being taken for mugs.

I really hope this is all smoke & mirrors, because if this is the case, then the union is as powerless as I have thought they are for a long time, and you have to wonder whose best interests the union have these days. It certainly doesn't appear to be its members, who pay them to represent them, not

I can't actually think of one positive thing the union has actually achieved over the past 4 years, and working together is a complete sham, dreamed up by management, as it is a wholly one way street, benefitting management, and completely penalising union members.

Not impressed. Not impressed in the slightest, by either management or the union.

[Flybywyre]

IF, what has been posted above is correct then some action has to be taken by members of both unions.

IF, the “word from the Union briefings” is correct then clearly the NTUS is not fit for purpose and they need to be replaced with people who are able to stand up to a management side that seem to have been running rings around the present incumbents for some time.

The first thing that needs to be done by either this or a new NTUS is to get rid of the ridiculous “Working together” nonsense.
You could actually keep it if you tweeked it slightly. Make it so that the NTUS is “working together” with the members, and not the management.

[Mantovani]

If the Unions can't get a better core offer than 2% when NATS is making such fantastic profits then I can't see the point of being in the union.

[landedoutagain]

The word from the union briefings held over the past week or so, is that the union are going to re-introduce AAVAs (not that they have actually gone yet. They have only given notice to withdraw from the agreement)

This is not what was said at the meeting I was at, almost the opposite in fact. The agreement will end. Suggest you go to a meeting, or at least ask a rep directly.



DC10

Thanks - interesting news that, here is a link BBC News - Arriva Trains Wales strike under way (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-12587093)

and from that page...The union has accused the company of paying Welsh drivers less than their English counterparts

Could we substitute welsh for scottish??! :} Either way, it would seem that RPI + 1 and a bit is acceptable to other managements in the current climate. Come on NATS, sort it out, it could save you £££'s (in fines due to delays this summer!) its not like all of that is pensionable just now is it???

[Me Me Me Me]

Disillusioned
According to the latest info newsletter put out by the union, there are now no further pay meetings scheduled, as management have cancelled the one pencilled in for March 29th, and the only current offer on the table is the old offer of 2%

There are no further NTUS meetings... That's the joint ones where all parties are at the table. My understanding is that meetings continue with the respective branches... Probably where they try to get one to sell out the others for a pound of flesh. Same old story.

[DC10RealMan]

Landoutagain.

Thank you for that BBC story. Yes I am sure that you are right, substitute ScATCC-V-Swanwick, En-route-v-TC, atcos-v-atsas, Prospect-v-PCS etc the list is endless and historic.

[Mantovani]

The NTUS meetings are where the core pay offer is sorted out.

The sectional meeting are where the individual sections sell things to NATS. These agreements are cost neutral ie: They add noting to NATS's costs.

If the core pay offer is only 2% then the union can whistle for my subs. That is less than half the inflation rate FFS.

[132.3]

Mantiovani, if the core pay offer is only 2% then don't blame the union, they will have done the best they can. What you need to do then instead of petulantly withdrawing your subs and grumbling is vote no and send the negotiators back in with a mandate for industrial action.

A union is only as strong as its members...

[Mantovani]

132.3 it is March and I have yet to be offered the chance to vote.

If the best my union can negotiate is less than half the rate of inflation, effectively a 3% pay cut, when the company is making 10s of millions in profits then the unions badly need to get some new negotiators in.

[autothrottle]

Time to ballot the members, and send the idiots who run this company a very clear message. Well I won't hold my proverbial breath.

[Dannyboyblue]

Thats almost the exact email i just send to the head of NTUS

The time for action is now, With no meetings scheduled for the future what’s the point in continuing along this road. Lets start making the management think about how much a strike will cost them and take them by the reins.

Get everyone to set their working together to red so the GM's lose their bonuses for it, then it will suddenly become an issue they want to discuss. Put the colour of the working together as a condition of the negotiations for pay.

Grrrrrrrrrrr very angry at NATS management and would happily walk out tomorrow if the union gave the thumbs up.

DBB

[Me Me Me Me]

The way these things are done is that it is the company who are obliged to make a written offer before the TUs are able to take it to members.

As I understand it management are keeping everything verbal and avoiding the formality. I would bet the NTUS guys are desperate to get that 2% in writing so they can get a resounding "NO!" from us and go back to the table stronger.

We're being strung along but it's not really the fault of NTUS. Their only other option would be to go to full dispute now - We'd all like that as it would be action... but I guess they worry it'd ruin any chance they might have of getting a decent offer.

[Bucking Bronco]

When a company's employees strike, the management have to answer to the board who in turn answer to the shareholders.

IMVHO if you guys went on strike, the airlines that own 40% (?) of NATS will be directing the board and mgmt to sort it out. The cost to the airlines of a strike could potentially be huge - they wouldn't want that for the sake of a couple of %.

Just my 2 cents...

[terrain safe]

What's the rush. Wait til the annual report is out in June and see how the management whatsits paid themselves and really give us a platform for action.

[landedoutagain]

I like terrain safe's plan. Its almost exactly what they did to us last time round! Then they were keen to get the vote finished just before the figures came out, I dont see how there will be time this year. So, all their pay rises, and probably short staffing... could be a good bargaining hand by then!

[Disillusioned]

I am more concerned right now as to the union's plan over the AAVA agreement.

Are the union going to let it lapse on April 28th as stated, or are they gong to cave, and either cancel their notice to withdraw from the AAVA agreement, or simply re-sign a new one on, say, May 1st ?

The nightmare scenario is that it gets re-signed literally days after the 28th April withdrawal date, but gets re-signed "in perpetuity" (I believe that's what it's called), whereby it now has no expiry date. That is one of the scary scenarios that I have heard whispered about.

However, I don't know how the union could do that, as my understanding is that they have no mandate to renew the AAVA agreement from the members, in fact, quite the opposite. My understanding is that the union has a mandate to not renew the AAVA agreement (when it actually expires at the end of 2011, under the current agreement).

But, the union seem to have a knack of applying those mandates which it wants to apply, and giving a sidestep to those mandates which don't quite fit into its agenda.

I think there is way too much union/management collaboration going on these days. I saw it in the pensions debacle, and I am seeing it here too. And I don't like it one bit.

[zonoma]

It would be nice if everyone just stops doing AAVA's now but I know that will not happen. Very disappointing.

Everyone moans and groans but does nothing about it. We are our own worst enemy and play perfectly into management hands. Put yourself on the other side of the fence - what would you do? Exactly what management are doing.

Weak union, weak support. Lots of toy chucking and dummy spitting, but nothing that will hurt. Prepare yourself for another fall.

[GAPSTER]

Just load all the blame on the union why don't you?

How about as a workforce we showed some f*****g spine and stopped doing overtime.The onus is on us as individuals and as said above the management are playing exactly the way we should expect.

Too easy to keep taking the money and let our Prospect reps be the nominated fall guys.

[Flybywyre]

Same goes for the ATSA's !!
They are on the verge of signing a rostered overtime agreement !!!!!!! :eek:
Management must be laughing their heads off.

[throw a dyce]

Flybywyre you're right.
When EFPS was being introduced the ATCOs at Aberdeen were tripping overthemselves to do AVAAs.This was to introduce a system which would eventually reduce ATSA numbers.It was rostered Overtime.
Then they are getting a bung from management for a job well done :ugh:.They are lambs to the slaughter,and management will have a field day.:D

[DC10RealMan]

On my local TV news there was an article about council cutbacks and its effect. At Blackpool Council the employees had decided that they would all take a collective pay cut to ensure that colleagues were not made redundant. I was quite impressed and thought how their stance was very ethical.

[Disillusioned]

On my local TV news there was an article about council cutbacks and its effect. At Blackpool Council the employees had decided that they would all take a collective pay cut to ensure that colleagues were not made redundant. I was quite impressed and thought how their stance was very ethical.

But are the Blackpool council making over £100m in profits every year?

NATS's massive profits over the past 3 years have been based on current staffing levels. Their incessant drive to increase these profits at the expense of cutting jobs "to the bone" is, quite frankly, appaling.

And these profits give them plenty of scope for a decent pay offer...they just choose not to.

[rab-k]

Heard on BBC Radio 4's Today (http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/default.stm) programme this a.m a spokesman for the IDS Pay Report (http://www.idspayreport.co.uk/StaticPages/AboutThisSite.htm) stating that, including January's figures, the average pay settlement is now standing at 2.8%...

And here we are in a highly profitable body being offered 2% with strings...

:ouch:

[luv pringles]

Perhaps we will be dealing with new owners in a few months anyway

[Greebson]

A couple of pages ago it was suggested that management wanted to delay a pay deal until April, wasn't it management that changed the pay deal to January? I'm not one for bungs, but I believe that our pay deal should be for January and nothing else. If April is (or has been) mentioned, then the union should use the phrase, 'Backdated to last April or bugger off'.

[The Fat Controller]

I am a NATS ATCO2 at the top of the salary scale, Band 4 Unit.

In April my take-home pay will be going down by £516.77 a year.

What will happen to yours?

Here is a useful calculator

UK PAYE Income Tax Calculator 2011 salary calculator UK. Updated for 2011 / 2012 tax year. Calculate wages pension national insurance and student loan repayments online. (http://listentotaxman.com/index.php)

[Mantovani]

I can't see any of NATS senior managers taking a pay cut this year... The company is making millions of pounds every week... Donkey Choking Bonuses all round.

Screw the workers.

[121decimal375]

Fat controller....

Im at the same unit....not quite top of of the scale and my Net monthly pay from that calculator is down nearly £100 per month!

The first couple of percent of any pay deal will now be swallowed by tax!

[5milesbaby]

Sorry to point out the obvious but how is tax changes related to pay negotiations? It isn't the company's fault what the government have changed the laws and you cannot expect NATS to pay you more just so your net monthly pay doesn't go down.

Mantovani has a good point, does anyone have the stats for the negotiated grade pay increases for the last few years? I know the bonuses a few of the top brass took, but how about the rest of them, did they get rises when we all got diddly?

[blueskythinking]

"Sorry to point out the obvious but how is tax changes related to pay negotiations? It isn't the company's fault what the government have changed the laws and you cannot expect NATS to pay you more just so your net monthly pay doesn't go down."

Assume you have been to your drugs and alcohol briefing! Guess your not at work for a day or two! :D

[Flybywyre]

"you cannot expect NATS to pay you more just so your net monthly pay doesn't go down"
Yes you can....................and further more you should!!

Especially given the profits that NATS are making :eek:

Are you a member of the NTUS ?

[DC10RealMan]

"Screw the workers" isn't that what managements are supposed to do?

[Me Me Me Me]

Flybywyre
Yes you can....................and further more you should!!

Especially given the profits that NATS are making

Are you a member of the NTUS ?

blueskythinking
Assume you have been to your drugs and alcohol briefing! Guess your not at work for a day or two!

Actually no... 5miles is 100% correct. The negotiated pay increase is a cost-of-living increase. Tax is a completely seperate issue.

you can't just lump everything you don't like together and then demand someone does something about it... It's a rather simplisitc and naive attitude.

If we voted in a Scandanavian style government and started to pay up to 63% tax, as in Denmark for example, then you wouldn't see employers doubling salaries to make up for it - you'd just expect better services to tax payers in return.

Really, there is a very strong argument as to why NATS should pay a fair pay increase to staff... Don't spoil it.

[Mantovani]

Taxes, be they direct or indirect, go towards inflation.

The current RPI stands at over 5% with plenty more rises in the pipeline. There is talk of petrol hitting £2 a litre.

After nearly 10 months of negotiations and despite record profits NATS management have offered a core rise of only 2%.

Personally I am ready to vote on this offer right now.

[PeltonLevel]

Mantovani
Taxes, be they direct or indirect, go towards inflationerrrr ... NO
Direct taxes affect standard of living, indirect taxes affect inflation and hence standard of living.
You may wish to preserve your standard of living (a reasonable, but perhaps optimistic, aspiration) but you should be aware of the basis on which you expect your representatives to be negotiating.

[Mantovani]

Direct taxes may not instantly effect the RPI like a VAT rise but they do eventually feed through and cause prices to rise.

[radarman]

For those who want NATS to compensate them for the adverse effects of taxation so they can maintain their standard of living: It's a two-way street my friend. If a future government reduces the level of personal taxation, will you follow logic and ask the unions to negotiate a reduction in salary? After all, you want to maintain your living standard don't you? :E

[Me Me Me Me]

Actually high income tax is deflationary - since it reduces disposable income, liquidity and slows down growth in consumer spending.

Indirect taxes are inflationary. Direct taxes are not.

That said, I fully agree that I want to chance to vote on the 2% offer now and tell them where to stick it.

[blueskythinking]

My comments on 5milesbaby's post were relating to the rambling and incoherent nature of it rather than the content.
I do not believe that NATS is responsible for sheltering us from tax rises. HOWEVER- when the government increases VAT on goods and services it has a direct result on the rpi. The price of those goods and services increase and therefore so does the rpi. I do not appreciate being called simplistic or naive so would suggest union reps and those higher up in the union stop assuming the membership is of a lower intellect than themselves. An argument could be quite easily made that those who seek these posts do so for their own self advancement within NATS rather than any kind of altruistic desire to help the workforce. ( not in all cases I may add but we can all name many individuals who fit this profile) .:*

[Flybywyre]

Me x 4

The negotiated pay increase is a cost-of-living increase.

Really ?
Where did you see that little gem written down, or did you just make it up :confused:

The negotiated pay rise takes into account a lot of factors including the cost of living and how well the company is doing.
It also consists of a lot of horse trading concerning T & C's.

To think that the negotiated pay increase is purely a "cost-of-living" increase really is being simplistic and naive.

Anyway it doesn't matter what it consists of or what it is called.
To make things easy I will settle on the same criteria that Baron and the other spivs used in 2009/10 to award their own pay rises.

[Me Me Me Me]

Really ?
Where did you see that little gem written down, or did you just make it up

The negotiated pay rise takes into account a lot of factors including the cost of living and how well the company is doing.
It also consists of a lot of horse trading concerning T & C's.

To think that the negotiated pay increase is purely a "cost-of-living" increase really is being simplistic and naive.

Anyway it doesn't matter what it consists of or what it is called.
To make things easy I will settle on the same criteria that Baron and the other spivs used in 2009/10 to award their own pay rises.

Any payment increase that is calculated as a multiplyer of RPI is in essence a cost-of-living related activity. Our pensionable pay increases are capped at a cost-of-living multiplyer limit. There is no mechanism to formally include any other factors, such as the level of profit the company made in the calculation... It becomes involved simply as a negotiation tool. Ts & Cs have also only become part of that negotiation due to the company not being willing to meet the cost-of-living rises without attaching strings.

The whole reason that we are arguing 2% or more than 2% with strings is unacceptable is because 2% doesn't match the increase we've all felt in the cost of things. The fact the company has made large profits, paid large dividends and given out golden wheelbarrows are all good additional arguments - but RPI is the fundemental one.

Is that enough for you, or would you like to dig out your contract of employment too?

[Flybywyre]

Any payment increase that is calculated as a multiplyer of RPI is in essence a cost-of-living related activity. Our pensionable pay increases are capped at a cost-of-living multiplyer limit. There is no mechanism to formally include any other factors, such as the level of profit the company made in the calculation... It becomes involved simply as a negotiation tool. Ts & Cs have also only become part of that negotiation due to the company not being willing to meet the cost-of-living rises without attaching strings.

You clearly took the transition from chief script writer for the popular TV sitcom "Yes Minister" to your present position on the NTUS with aplomb and vigour.

[loubylou]

Any increase up to and including RPI is not a pay rise as such - but merely an increase to reflect the cost of living.
Only an increase above RPI is a pay rise.
And bear in mind that last year we got nothing at all.

Virgin, I believe are balloting their pilots on 15% rise. They wanted 20%.

louby

[fisbangwollop]

There are reasons to be cheerful at the current persistence of below-inflation pay awards. This is according to Sunday Times Economics Editor David Smith. The headline pay award continues to fall further behind elevated inflation in 2011. But, Smith argues, if workers are "patient", then the current "misery will be replaced by happiness."


In a very interesting piece in the latest Sunday Times (20 February 2011), Smith contends that while below-inflation pay awards are having harsh consequences for UK workers' purchasing power in 2011, there are also some significant upsides. These are as follows:

•Subdued pay awards mean unemployment is lower than might have been expected given the severity of the recession. Smith says: "Wage restraint has enabled the labour market to share out jobs among a larger number of people than would be the norm in recession and early recovery in Britain. It is the other side of the pay squeeze coin."
•Persistent record-low interest rates of 0.5% are partly enabled by the ongoing weakness of pay awards, thereby preventing "a rise in interest rates [which] would intensify the squeeze on household incomes." As we have recently noted, the extent to which the current elevated inflation might feed through into public inflation expectations and in turn drive up pay settlements is of crucial importance to the Bank of England Monetary Policy Committee's (MPC) decision as to when and if interest rates should be raised.

Smith argues that the optimum outcome for the wider economy and for UK workers' pay packets is for inflation to fall back (as the February 2011 Bank of England Inflation Report predicts it will, once "temporary" factors such as "increases in the standard rate of VAT; higher energy prices; and higher import prices" fall out of inflation data), while both interest rates and pay awards rise gradually. Smith sets out his view of this ideal scenario as follows:

Falling inflation should cross over with gently rising pay settlements, at least in the private sector, to produce the return of rising real pay. In this Micawberite economy, misery will be replaced by happiness. As long as people are patient.

Citing latest evidence on trends in whole economy pay awards from the XpertHR pay databank, Smith says that there is reason to suggest that this vision could become reality:

What happens to pay and the income squeeze from now on? Evidence is starting to build of modestly higher pay settlements. XpertHR, the old Industrial Relations Services , reported that while median pay settlements remained at 2% in the three months to January, the median for [I]those in the top 25% rose from 2.3% to 3%, and nearly 70% of settlements were higher than last time."

[rab-k]

Cheers FBW...

See also: Median pay settlement rises sharply to 2.8% (http://www.incomesdata.co.uk/news/press-releases/paysettlements1068.pdf)

(Try here (http://idseye.com/2011/03/03/median-pay-settlement-rises-sharply-to-2-8/) if above link playing up)

[Me Me Me Me]

You clearly took the transition from chief script writer for the popular TV sitcom "Yes Minister" to your present position on the NTUS with aplomb and vigour.

Don't hate me 'cause I'm right :ok:

[thepinkcloud]

With regard to the AAVA agreement. In a recent Prospect briefing it was suggested that it would be re-instated, at the same rate. Their reasoning was that they wanted more money for the core pay negotiations and so didn't want to ask for more for AAVAs. In fact the S&S rep even stated that if they were to get more for AAVAs it wouldn't be much more than a tenner anyway. We were told that as it was voluntary we can choose to do them or not and, once a successful end was brought to the pay talks if not enough bodies were willing to do the extra shifts to keep the company afloat then management would have to look at the rate again to make it more attractive.
Don't think this is working...

And just to let you guys south of the border know- we've been told up north that you actually want the agreement re-instated as was. Can anyone shed any light on that? The feeling up here is there's no way we should be signing up in perpetuity to an agreement that was due to end this year- and definitely not at the same rate.

[Disillusioned]

I think, with AAVA's you have to think medium/long term, otherwise you simply end up worse off after a very short space of time.

It's safe to say that there is a finite amount of cash available for any monetary increases, be it core pay, AAVA's, sectional claims, whatever. There is a finite amount available.

Increase the AAVA rate, and the core pay won't rise as much.

I think it is infinitely preferable to put ALL the available cash into the core pay, that way, it is pensionable, everyone gets it, and it stays with you forever.

Then, if people could sit and think a few months down the line rather than this month's pay packet, the obvious thing to do would be take a few months of a hit and simply don't do ANY AAVA's.

OK, you might miss out on a couple of £1,000 over say 3 months, but when management come to the union asking why they cannot man their sectors, have horrendous delays and no one is doing any AAVA's, the simple answer is, they are not paying enough for them, and consequently management will have no choice but to up the rate to entice people into doing them again, but you will already have had your maximum core pay rise, so you win on both scores.

But, it does need members to see the slightly longer plan, and be prepared to hold off on those short term AAVA gains for a few months.

That's what I believe the union are saying, and I fully understand it, and agree with it.

Obviously, some people won't, and if enough people are happy enough to go ahead and do AAVA's at the current rate if they are re-instated at that, then that will simply just play into managements hands, and they won't have any need to increase the rate.

If this scenario comes into play, it is up to the members (who in effect ARE the union) to realise this, and do their part by not giving in to short term gain, that in the end will help no-one, including themselves.