UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours

[Rocket_Science]

I was under the impression that holding trainee ATCO's at Swanwick already do ATSA tasks?

Also the case at Prestwick; TATCs are being trained to undertake ACPO and FSS tasks. PCS have been all too accommodating with local management and only seem interested in protecting the operational roles - which, lets face it, are the roles that are dead in the water!

[Frank Disclosure]

Standard Noise
And we'll notice how?

I'd imagine the first things to start causing problems would be radars.

[Scot Cabin]

AG comms would progressively get less and less resilient/robust.

[10W]

Also the case at Prestwick; TATCs are being trained to undertake ACPO and FSS tasks. PCS have been all too accommodating with local management and only seem interested in protecting the operational roles - which, lets face it, are the roles that are dead in the water!

Presumably Prospect agreed to this as well ? If so, why ? It's the thin end of a wedge.

[BDiONU]

Presumably Prospect agreed to this as well ? If so, why ? It's the thin end of a wedge.
I would suggest it's a pragmatic use of resource. There are no UVC's running whilst the unit gear up for EFD OCT2, so no 'work' for TATCs. There is a shortage of ACPO and FSS for OCT2 so why not make use of the available resource and pay them a decent wage. Once OCT2 is finished the UVCs start again and the TATCs can then do what they were employed to do.
It's a short term solution for a short term problem.

BD

[10W]

Next thing you know, you'll have non ATSA staff coming in from Projects and the like to do the ATSA job because management cocked up by letting ATSAs go before EFD was fully operational ....... maybe the canteen chef, the receptionists, and the cleaners, could get a quick ATSA 'validation' and help out too ?

A short term solution ?

[ZOOKER]

EFD OCT2?
Sure sounds like fun, enlighten us BD, as this acronym is new to this discussion.

[ZOOKER]

BD,
Are we facing a resurgence of activity on the 'EFD at Scottish' forum perchance? :E

[BDiONU]

Next thing you know, you'll have non ATSA staff coming in from Projects and the like to do the ATSA job because management cocked up by letting ATSAs go before EFD was fully operational
Be expensive on T&RE bringing up non PC staff.
maybe the canteen chef, the receptionists, and the cleaners, could get a quick ATSA 'validation' and help out too ?
Previously ATSA posts have been filled by contractors responding to jobcentre vacancies, if you've got the necessary aptitude anyone can be trained.

My earlier response to your post was my own humble opinion <shrugs>

BD

[Rocket_Science]

It's a short term solution for a short term problem.

A problem created by management haste and greed which could have been avoided. Even when EFD was proving it could not be relied upon, management agreed to more ATSA redundancies. Genius!

:rolleyes:

[fisbangwollop]

Did someone say EFD was a short term problem???? :rolleyes:

[kats-I]

BD...Previously ATSA posts have been filled by contractors responding to jobcentre vacancies, if you've got the necessary aptitude anyone can be trained..

Time..Money..(such a shortage!!) and who will do the training??:ugh:

[BDiONU]

Time..Money..(such a shortage!!) and who will do the training??:ugh:
Does depend on when OCT starts :E

BD

[On the beach]

"Does depend on when OCT starts"

Isn't it on the first of OCTober? :E

[ZOOKER]

OCT2, according to post 2315.

[Ceannairceach]

I see Mr Mills and a couple of executive cohorts have "left NATS with immediate effect" today.

Connected to the ongoing pay shambles perhaps?

[Air.Farce.1]

Would that be the same one who was " widely acknowledged as an expert in project management development and deployment." and who said in 2009 that EFD would be fully operational by November 1st 2010 ?

[Minesapint]

Big shame that, he will be missed :E

[Ceannairceach]

I bet he walks away with a few quid. I look forward to finding out exactly how much.

[Use the Force]

It is a shame when people lose their job :sad:

Do you think it was the ATCO's who got payed too much or the ATSA's and Engineers who did not get payed enough?

[Ceannairceach]

A combination of the two (plus ATSS) and EFD I'd think - and hope.

[ZOOKER]

Ceannairceach,
interesting to note that all trace of Mr. Mills has been removed from the NATS website this evening.
Will this post be advertised externally? I have no experience in management type things, but I have a lower second in Geology/Geography and would like to work in an office overlooking Goatfell. :ok:

[Cuddles]

'Night of the long knives' in NERL.....

I wonder how many 'work' mobiles were left in the car today?

[Ceannairceach]

A couple of the protagonists were in a rather important meeting with NTUS on the night of the long knives which was duly interrupted by some nice people from security who proceeded to escort said people to their desks to clear up, then off the premises.

I really hope the truths when it comes to the why's comes out....

[PeltonLevel]

Zooker
interesting to note that all trace of Mr. Mills has been removed from the NATS website this evening.And, at the time of this post, Ian Hall's biography still mentions his previous role as Director, International Operations (which I always imagined was a pre-retirement post)!:confused:

And Elvis's songwriter seems to have a bigger role now!

[Frank Disclosure]

I'm not in work today so haven't read NATS net to see the reasons given or exactly who has gone along with Ian Mills, could someone enlighten me?

[Me Me Me Me]

I'm not in work today so haven't read NATS net to see the reasons given or exactly who has gone along with Ian Mills, could someone enlighten me?

Directors of HR (NERL) and Supply Chain & Business Services went with him.

I very much doubt they will be the last...

[ZOOKER]

Is that Phillip James? I thought he had already left. If it was his replacement, then it was a very short time in post.

[Me Me Me Me]

Is that Phillip James? I thought he had already left. If it was his replacement, then it was a very short time in post.

Philip was NATS HR Director... This is NERL HR Director.

I know...

[Frank Disclosure]

"left NATS with immediate effect"

That is a phrase I usually associate with people being dismissed. Were any reasons for these 'changes' given?

[Roffa]

No real reasons given on NATSNET, all a bit ambiguous.

Were the three just gone all Baron appointees?

[Air.Farce.1]

Quote from Barron in 2005



NATS chief technology and programmes officer steps down - 3/18/2005 - Computer Weekly (http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2005/03/18/208933/NATS-chief-technology-and-programmes-officer-steps-down.htm)

Barron, said, “The success of our company is inextricably linked to our ambitious £1bn modernisation plan and the 350 engineering projects that support it.
“We will be moving swiftly to find the right capability for this task and I have every confidence in the ability of Nigel Horne and Ian Mills to manage this effectively in the interim.”

[BDiONU]

Quote from Barron in 2005
But then he was talking about programmes and the prophesy came true. Mills pwned programmes and made them his biatch. When he stepped up to CEO it was a slightly different story with the Ops Directors, he blinked first.

[PeltonLevel]

NATS chief technology and programmes officer steps down
I seem to recall that the internal release could have been read as:
NATS chief technology and programmes officer stepped on!

[Frank Disclosure]

Must have come as a shock to some of NATS's senior managers this morning when they realised they do actually need Engineers.

[Ceannairceach]

And the assistants at PC did all of the flight plan inputting too.

[Rocket_Science]

Why are you falling for managements stalling tactics? Why has notice not yet been given to NATS of intention to ballot members on industrial action? At my unit, I can tell you the will to fight is definitely there. Yes, NATS say they cannot negotiate" with a gun to their head" but they're the one's who put the bullets in the gun with their insulting and divisive offer. I for one would be more than happy to see my union negotiate with NATS from such a position of strength. It will certainly focus a few minds!

I also hope there is no truth in the rumour that NATS cannot offer more because Prospect ATCOs were told there is no more money. Sorry NATS, that is a rod you have made for your own back! But incredibly (I believe) PCS seem to have bought the idea that we have to "sell" more of our T&Cs to fund any further offer. Do you not think we have been insulted enough already?

Please, PLEASE don't make the same mistake as Prospect ATSS and weaken our position by recommending a piddly little token increase of an offer and say this is best you're going to get. It will only demonstrate what can be achieved when the "gun" is not held to the head. And no, I'm not after as much as we can get. I just don't want a pay cut, just a fair RPI deal.

Surely, if we do not stand firm now then more of our T&Cs will be used to fund future pay rises (and not necessarily for PCS grades).

[SwanFIS]

'And the assistants at PC did all of the flight plan inputting too'

That is stretching the facts a tad :=

[FLSV]

Being from a smaller country in Europe it is interesting to see what is happening in the bigger ATC-countries.
I haven’t read the all posts but it seems like many countries providers have had an aggressive tone the last few years.
The one thing I have realized is that if we stay focused and united they will never be able to break us. Older ATCOS knows that but younger does has some difficulties to understand. Hopefully they learn after seeing what happens in countries that stay united.
Spain, Germany, England, Finland, Iceland and many other countries have had a very tough situation. I'm glad to read that some of you understand the importance of staying united.
There is always going to be those who think that we are paid too much and that we don’t deserve more, even among ourselves. They think that airlines will stop complaining about ATC-costs if we don’t get pay rise. They will never stop complaining! NEVER!
Maybe they (airlines) should charge their passengers more! Maybe the solution to the problems that airlines have isn’t always pay cut after pay cut for their staff and cutting ATC-costs. Maybe the problem can be found somewhere else! Maybe it has to cost more to fly!
And also providers must realize that an aggressive tone will NEVER be the answer to solving problems during negotiations! NEVER! :=

[Dan Dare]

FLSV welcome to PPRuNEThere is always going to be those who think that we are paid too much and that we don’t deserve more, even among ourselves. They think that airlines will stop complaining about ATC-costs if we don’t get pay rise. They will never stop complaining! NEVER!

Very sage words in your maiden speech. We MUST all rember this. It is not holding the travelling public to ransom, it is having respect for difficult tasks, which not everyone can do and not everyone wants to do. Tasks which must be done right every time - even when the equipment provided to us does not work (AGAIN!). I sometimes think that our problem is that we make the impossible look easy and observers go away believing that it actually is.

[BDiONU]

ATSA pay deal out now for consideration. 4.2% this year on pay and allowances + £400 bung. Next year capped at 4.8% on pay only.

[Rocket_Science]

Please, PLEASE don't make the same mistake as Prospect ATSS and weaken our position by recommending a piddly little token increase of an offer and say this is best you're going to get.

It would appear my Jedi powers were strong on Monday night!

Oh dear :uhoh:

[Ceannairceach]

If I was an ATSA I'd be disgusted with that tbh.

[SR71BlackBird]

The PCS deal is better than the ATSS one.

[Scot Cabin]

Prospect ATSS ballot paper arrived in the post today. Not too sure which way to vote, feel a bit let down by our union again. Same old same old.

[Rocket_Science]

My ballot paper and PCS newsletter arrived this weekend. I have to say I find the whole thing quite unpalatable.

In a nutshell, NATS have got nasty and threatened to withdraw from the agreement to avoid compulsory redundancy. Rather than stand up to this blatant bully boy tactics, PCS decided to negotiate with the gun now pointing firmly at their head.

The latest offer, somehow, feels inferior to the original one, with more terms being sold off. It also divides its own membership as VCA and PTAS contract staff will get less than those on standard contracts.

It's down to the members vote now. I've voted no, but I fear I will be in the minority.

[fisbangwollop]

Well that's two of us...a very big NO...!!

[Flybywyre]

Make that three.............................

[EGLL19791986]

Four!!!!!!!

[Rocket_Science]

Blimey! It's a mutiny! :ok:

[eastern wiseguy]

I've yet to see a mutiny on PPrune translate to a NO vote. You'll take it...you know you will...:E

[Me Me Me Me]

Very little mention anywhere of how 2011 leavers get shafted in the deal... No arrears will be paid to people who left between January and July.

That's a first time - and unwelcome - addition :bored:

[Scot Cabin]

Very little mention anywhere of how 2011 leavers get shafted in the deal... No arrears will be paid to people who left between January and July.

Is this applicable to all Nats be they ATCO, ATSA, ATCE etc?

[Me Me Me Me]

Only PCS grades

[Frank Disclosure]

I voted no. Management clearly do not value engineers. On my own personal work to rule and overtime boycott now.

[DC10RealMan]

I am happy to be corrected, but I understood that the no compulsory redundancy agreement was more an "understanding" than a formal agreement.

[Rocket_Science]

Dispute resolved through discussion - Latest Rail and Train Travel News from First TransPennine Express (http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/about-ftpe/media-centre/90/dispute-resolved-through-discussion.htm)

Congratulations to ASLEF and RMT who have demonstrated what a union with some nuts can achieve. Derisory 2% offer lifted to a 5% offer for ALL staff.

[whitelighter]

Yet at 5.2% and 5% next year our offer was crap?

Sometimes its worth accepting what is a sensible offer...

[Ceannairceach]

Any idea when the results are released?

[Rocket_Science]

Yet at 5.2% and 5% next year our offer was crap?

:=You seemed to have confused me for a greedy ATCO.

If I was offered the same, I would rip your hand off!

The offer on the table for PCS grades is the "crap" offer to which I refer. The same "crap" offer that has funded the more generous offer to another trade group by the wholesale reduction of our T&Cs.

[autothrottle]

Any news on PCS and ATSS ballots?

[Akasaka]

Any news on PCS and ATSS ballots?

Results are due today I believe - normally by midday ....

UPDATED:

For rejection of the offer - 15.3%
For acceptance of the offer - 84.7%
Total ballot papers received - 71.7%

[Ceannairceach]

Which branch are those figures for?

[autothrottle]

The result above was for PCS.

[hold at SATAN]

August RPI 5.2% :(

[LEGAL TENDER]

August RPI 5.2%



A GOOD DEAL BETTER ;)

[Scot Cabin]

So that equates to a real terms 0.2% pay cut for all NATS ATCOs and for NSL ATCOs previously in receipt of Met contingency payments a 2.2% real terms cut.

"RPI capped at a maximum 5% from Jan 1st2012 (August 2011 RPI
figure) on basic pay only;"

and NATS ATCEs get a real terms o.8% pay cut this year and a real terms 1.2% pay cut next year. Nice one Prospect.

[Ceannairceach]

A massive capitulation from the PCS membership there. Surprising.

[Roffa]

Inflation is still forecast to go higher as well.

If you voted yes to any of the deals though there's no point complaining now.

And don't blame the Union for putting a deal on the table, even if they recommended it. It's ultimately down to the membership to accept/reject.

[EGLL19791986]

I voted no (to the PCS deal), but I accept the result as we all live in
a demoracy don't we? (tongue in cheek that part!). However there are certain things that I've been involved in up until now that I won't be doing in future and managment can get an ATCO out of the Ops room to :mad: do them!

[ToweringCu]

Average pay rise this year in the private sector is 2.5 percent, pay freeze for most public sector workers. Maybe we should compare our pay deals with those figures rather than RPI.

[ZOOKER]

But NATS staff are not average.
According to the NATS website, they are "global leaders". :ok:

[Ceannairceach]

ToweringCu - most of those private sector organisations haven't made the profits that NATS have. And none are ATS providers. So you really can't make a comparison. It's like comparing chalk to cheese.

[ToweringCu]

The Manchester Group awarded it's ATCOs a 2.5% rise this year.

[The Fat Controller]

AVERAGE RPI over the 12 months to August 2011

5.083 %

[Me Me Me Me]

The Manchester Group awarded it's ATCOs a 2.5% rise this year.

Did the Manchester Group make over £100m in profit this year and pay tens of millions in shareholder dividends?

[fisbangwollop]

I knew my no vote would be like pissing into the wind!!! just as well I'm out of here in another 3 years....feel sorry for the folk with a few years left to do.......this is only the start of the sh1t from up above, but then again if the workforce are happy to accept the crap then hell mend them!!!:confused:

[5milesbaby]

<not to be named director> got somewhere in the region of 8%, based on that, we'll all be marched out of the building by next February.........

[Rocket_Science]

if the workforce are happy to accept the crap then hell mend them!!!

I'm with you fis, we have just condemned ourselves...and by quite a large majority too.

The membership have failed to grasp that they are in a well paid job that will give them a decent pension. In ten years time (when we are all up to our necks in dry powder) they'll be wondering why they did not stand up and fight for this when they receive very average salaries and a mediocre pension.

At least now the offer has been accepted no one will be made compulsorily redundant...and if you believe that!!! :eek:

[LEGAL TENDER]

September RPI 5.6%

"WITH YOU ALL THE WAY" ;)