UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours

[White Hart]

Northerner

sorry, but I disagree. From my own perspective as an ATSA 2, I've watched my Unit systematically decimated by poor management; new technology sometimes not fit for purpose; well-meaning, but weak, Union representation; and a big fat zero in terms of actual meaningful support from the other grades (and from Prospect in particular) within the building - all of whom are more than aware of our circumstances, and have been for as long as I've been there.

All this from colleagues big on words of comfort/support/consolation, and who would all expect us to jump through hoops to help out if things went tits-up, but of absolutely no help in offering genuine SUPPORT as alluded to in Minesapint's post. They all say we're a vital part of the team, but consistently refuse to do anything more than just spout rhetoric - so what sort of message do you think that gives us?

Look at this thread - its all about what the ATCOs want from the pay deal. There's no discussion or involvement with anybody else - the rest of us just have to watch from the sidelines. What I am sure about though, is that the vast majority of ATCOs across NATS neither know or care what the future holds for ATSAs as part of the NATS team, and even less for our small group of 14 support staff tucked away on top of that big shiny tin toilet at Heathrow.

Some of these colleagues I've known for nearly 20 years, and I'm honoured to consider them as my friends outside of the work environment, but when we're inside the situation is changed - its the ATCOs and everybody else. So, yes, unfortunately - I tar you, them and all the rest of you out there 'with the same brush'.

If you doubt my words, send a PM to Gonzo or DC10RM - they are both honest and realistic guys, and I'm sure they would confirm what I see as the reality of our situation, and also that of the ATSAs across the Company.

now back to the ATCO pay deal...

[Jungle Jingle Jim]

Incident occurred due the ATCO having to abandon their work station temporarily and go to the strip printer, as the ATSA that normally 'stripped up' had been 'cost engineered' out of the Ops Room.

The ATCO concerned missed the few traces that turned out to be a primary only infringer in direct conflict with traffic on the ILS. This was as a result of an ATSA not providing the ATCO with regular strip updates. Traffic was arriving on his frequency without the timely arrival of a Flight Progress Strip.

Prior to the culling of ATSAs, these members of staff provided an integral part of the safety culture that was part of the normal and standard operation.

[ZOOKER]

Get real.
You simply cannot afford ATC Assistants anymore.
Gotta get some more 'Ecomanagers'! :ok:

[General_Kirby]

Zooker really is a nob isnt he.

[chiglet]

Zooker,
And that is exactly why I am leaving NATS in Feb '10.....
Cheers mate
White Hart, you have my sympathies...I am older than DC10, but not much wiser....

[Minesapint]

One word "Uberlingen" that's what happens when there are not enough staff in an ops room to man a sector effectively. If ATCO's are leaving their working position to do a support function we are in trouble.

[anotherthing]

White Hart

You have a very valid point about how some ATCOs view other grades... however

Look at this thread - its all about what the ATCOs want from the pay deal. There's no discussion or involvement with anybody else - the rest of us just have to watch from the sidelines.complete poppy-cock IMHO. The thread is open to all to write on, if people other than ATCOs do not exercise that right then that's up to them... it is not however caused by ATCOs stopping or overriding what others want!

If you want to watch from the sidelines, thats your lookout, but just because that's what some people want to do does not mean that they are being excluded.

btw, got my voting slip this morning - my 'no' vote has been returned. Anyone who trusts management must need their head examining - just look at how they have already reneged on the pension payments... 5 months after the votes were cast :ugh:

[privatesandwiches]

For many reasons, but a couple are:
The fact that NATS have blown £40 odd million which could have been better used to help secure our financial future rather than line the pockets of the airline fraternity and, to date the only comeback from high on up seems to be 'but we had to'..... doesnt quite cut it with me ( and yes I realise we got some too, but I could have lived without £190 if it meant it was going into the pension pot).
Also the fact that NATS still are not paying what they should be into out pension and are dicking about with that, what a surprise!!!
To quote a colleague of mine, 'they can kiss my tits'

Not holding my breath to see what management will 'award' themselves in September when the whole world finds out how rich we are.

Note to self: must think twice from now on to bandboxing a sector as clearly it is a thankless task. But at least some management lackey will get a big payrise/bonus/recognition for my and our hard work.

My vote is in the post :ok:

[Vote NO]

No doubt BA will be bleating to Barron about costs, after its £401 Million loss this year. Still I suppose their share of the £43.5 million gifted to them by NATS will ease the pressure on their £338 million fine for crooked fuel surcharge dealings:mad:. Nice part owners we have eh? :suspect:


The Times added that the settlement brings BA's total payout for conspiring to fix fuel surcharges to 338 million pounds -- 12 million short of the total set aside for such penalties.
BA CEO Walsh said last August that its provision of 350 million pounds was sufficient to cover all fines related to its fuel surcharge price fixing

So I guess if they had not been bent then their loss would have been only £63 million :E

[Lookatthesky]

No vote is in the post.

My vote is nothing to do with being greedy (fwiw I think the deal was reasonable), but more to do with sending a message to managemnt that we feel they are being less than economical with the truth regarding our finances and a NO vote will allow this to drag on to beyond the announcement of our financial situation.

[Vote NO]

That's exactly why I will vote no too

[121decimal375]

No Vote in the post, recorded delivery to ensure it gets there!

[Radarspod]

My No Vote (yes, you read it correctly) is in the post!

any one else find that there was no serial number on their ballot this time? I'm off to Staples to borrow a photocopier and a ream of yellow paper* :ok:

RS

*I'm kidding, democracy rules. (must put in a claim for my tennis courts...)

[ImnotanERIC]

mine was on blue paper

[ZOOKER]

Light blue paper and retire immediately! :E

[fisbangwollop]

My no vote to would be in the post if I had recieved one!!!!!....that said it will make little differance.......we have been shafted well and good not only by Barron but also by our work mates that could not be arsed to vote over the pension......a bludy disgrace........5 years left to do but I guess I will be out of the door before that as Barron needs the few quid that it costs to employ me to put in his back pocket!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He came, he conqured and he destroyed......and no doubt he will do the same to the next Company that comes his way.

[Minesapint]

The funny bit (yes, there is a funny bit) is how many ar$e licking contractors and PCG's are out of a job - with more to follow in October/November. :ok: They backed the wrong bl00dy horse this time, Barron has done exactly what the guys from GEC said he would. :suspect:

[MrJones]

White Hart (http://www.pprune.org/members/103982-white-hart)


sorry, but I disagree. From my own perspective as an ATSA 2, I've watched my Unit systematically decimated by poor management; new technology sometimes not fit for purpose; well-meaning, but weak, Union representation; and a big fat zero in terms of actual meaningful support from the other grades (and from Prospect in particular) within the building - all of whom are more than aware of our circumstances, and have been for as long as I've been there.Yep that's NATS for you - Donkeys led by donkeys.

We don't have managers any more, we have yes men and I have no idea why anyone bothers to be a member of Prostrate.

[Vote NO]

Minesapint

The funny bit (yes, there is a funny bit) is how many ar$e licking contractors and PCG's are out of a job - with more to follow in October/November. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif They backed the wrong bl00dy horse this time, Barron has done exactly what the guys from GEC said he would.

Remember when Barron first came along and said " we know where we are going, but we don't know how to get there" . Then followed the "Destinations train" with all those stops along the way, and cries of "join me on this journey" or you will be left behind and all those ar$e licking contractors and PCG's jumping on board, spouting all that crap. Now they are being thrown off, sadly, the most useless of them with a shed load of money:mad:. I used to laugh my head off listening to grown men actually discussing their chosen "destination", until I realised the lunatics had taken over the assylum:}

Final Destination :{
http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/FlyingTrain/014.jpg

[Northerner]

White Hart,

I know things have been c**p where you work (as they are in many places). I don't doubt for a second that you feel badly treated and unrecognised. I wasn't disputing that. Nor can I help what has happened. I don't need to check up on you with others to believe what you say and feel about the situation where you work and with ATSA's generally.

I also know that wherever there are ATCO's there are greedy, self centered, selfish, unthinking individuals, as there are anywhere there are people. There are also plenty who are not. I'm fairly certain for instance, that you wouldn't lump Gonzo in with those others who don't care?

You say: "They all say we're a vital part of the team, but consistently refuse to do anything more than just spout rhetoric"
Okay. What do you want them/us to actually do? I, personally, would happily forgo any payrise if I thought it would save the jobs of the many ATSA's who won't be here in a few years, but I'm realistic too - that wouldn't happen - the jobs will go anyway. If there is something we can do other than sympathise/empathise then tell us.

"Some of these colleagues I've known for nearly 20 years, and I'm honoured to consider them as my friends outside of the work environment, but when we're inside the situation is changed - its the ATCOs and everybody else."

If that's the case, are these people really your friends? True friends would not change their spots in a differeing situation. Either they should be straight with you outside work about what they feel and what is happening even if it's not what you want to hear, or they should be with you inside work too.

I'm truly sorry that you have been let down so badly. I'm sorry things are the way there are at the moment. But there are people who do care about the ATSA's (which was my original point) and would do anything in their power to help them, and I'm one. And if you don't believe me, then ask one or two people who know me; like two of my best friends who are ATSA's, or my husband, who also is an ATSA, and will probably be out of a job in the next couple of years. Ask the ATSA's on my watch how I treat them. I'm not alone in caring about them. I may be in a minority, but I'm not alone.

Tar us all with the same brush if you want, but it's not going to win you the support you really need. You might think you won't get it anyway, but you won't know unless you try....

Cheers,
N

"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."

[Minesapint]

I was was recently informed by an admittedly drunk ATCO that "when push comes to shove all engineers and ATSA's can f&*k off as we ATCO's will be looking after ourselves. At that point I reminded him that he should consider the size of his puny body with the size of my boot :ouch:, further explanations included what will happen to the ATCO's eventually ( an engineer as COO and a change of GM at Swanwick may be giveaways :suspect: ). The funny drunk little man is still convinced that the mighty ATCO is untouchable, even now he is sober (allegedly) we will see!

[Loxley]

Why were the serial numbers on the pension ballot papers, but not on the pay ballots?

[Flybywyre]

Mine has a serial number on it ............ 1154

[kats-I]

Something odd going on here. :suspect:

Why are ballot papers different colours...Yellow, Blue and Pink and why have some got serial numbers and others haven't? Surely if we are all balloting over same issue than all papers should be identical! (all with a NO vote!! LOL)
Obviously not as anonymous as it should be!:hmm:

[eglnyt]

Why are ballot papers different colours...Yellow, Blue and Pink and why have some got serial numbers and others haven't?

Just a guess but I would say that there are different colours for the different branches, although they also state which branch they are it's much easier to separate them if they are different colours and they have to be separated because each branch is counted separately.

My yellow paper didn't have a serial number so it could just be that somebody forgot to serial number those ones. Or perhaps some branches are more trusting than others :)

I, personally, would happily forgo any payrise if I thought it would save the jobs of the many ATSA's who won't be here in a few years, but I'm realistic too - that wouldn't happen - the jobs will go anyway.

Personally I'm still trying to decide on this point. Whilst I am sure that a large number of ATSA posts will inevitably be lost regardless of how we vote I'm still concerned that each pound spent on a payrise has to be saved elsewhere and that inevitably means that the more we get the more jobs could be lost. As a non ATCO that could mean me or the people I work with and it could mean more ATSAs.

[Vote NO]

If there is the slightest problem or irregularity with the ballot papers they should all be scrapped and another ballot taken which starts after NATS financial report is published in 30 days time :*. I am sure we all could have waited another month for the ballot, and if and when another large profit is shown we could vote with a clear conscience

VOTE NO

[anotherthing]

Having seen the way management have worked since PPP, I think it is quite clear that saving money on the pay rise will not save anyones job.

Management have just given away £46M... if they wan to shed jobs they will, regardless of any other consideration.

Vote 'YES' to prove to management that we are happy to let them continue to pillage profits whilst they do not pay enough into the pension pot. The next thing that will happen is even more changes in Ts and Cs.

For unions to have a strong starting position in any negotiations, the membership has to be seen to give a monkeys. A large non turn out will only strenghten management positions and make them shaft us even more.

[kats-I]

Mine is a "NO" vote and will be on its merry way soon.:ok:

Still can't understand why, even though it is a national vote, it can't be done at unit level with ballot boxes in work areas, under lock and key at night if necessary.:rolleyes:

eglnyt

.. with a decent payrise think how many hanger-on managers could be got rid of..ATSAs get a pittance compared to those guys/gals. Some of them could go without leaving a gap...managers that is , not ATSAs;)

[samos]

My No vote is in the post but I did notice that the cross had to be in black ink. Does this mean a cross in any other colour will be a spoilt vote?

[Vote NO]

I dont think so :)

[hold at SATAN]

regarding the timing of the ballot; from the atcos website:

The unions made it clear to management that we would not wait until September (when the August 2009 RPI figure is to be published) in order to agree a consolidated and pensionable pay increase for staff

OK, since the damned thing was going to be draged until June/July, what difference would a couple of month have made. I've yet to receive my ballot papers, but when I do it will be a NO vote for two reasons;

1 - I think the offer is crap
2 - Management need to know that they can't take the piss (any more)

[Scuzi]

BBC NEWS | England | Airline staff ballot over strike (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8064987.stm)

Maybe we could learn a thing or two from the boys and girls over at Monarch?

[anotherthing]

My No vote is in the post but I did notice that the cross had to be in black ink. Does this mean a cross in any other colour will be a spoilt vote?Doesn't stipulate anywhere on my form (blue ballot form) or the accompanying letter what colour ink to use.

A vote is a vote, the 'wrong' colour of ink should won't count as a spoiled paper... there is no need for it to be any particular colour for any reason.

[roidster]

My NO vote has just gone in.

If only NATS hadn't spunked £45mil out on dividends they may have offered us a fair deal or looked after our pension a bit better.

Vote NO.

[45 before POL]

No vote also gone in by myself and mrs 45 before. Agree that the dividend was a step too far and should have gone towards sorting the pension.
As for those that say jobs are on the line? Well they are going to lay off as many as they possibly can just to maximise their profit..regardless.....the asset stripping has just started next the college and probably another big dividend to the airline group.....but they will still plead poverty. Not the cosy not for profit company that we were led to believe at PPP.

[DC10RealMan]

To paraphrase the pigs in the novel Animal Farm by George Orwell. "Profit Good, Public Service bad", maybe some of the profit from your labours and pension fund has also gone to the "Hardship fund for misunderstood and victimised MPs"

[Ceannairceach]

My no was posted this morning.

Quite frankly, paying the huge dividend was the last straw. And when the company can pay thousands of pounds for aeroplane pictures in the new Scottish centre (check the A380 out - very impressive), and pay bonuses out to those who tell us to save and save, whilst collecting their own huge bonuses - then those of us who actually keep the company business ticking over deserve better. Simple as that.

And before anyone says get in the real world....why? When the rich in our company get richer we get an abysmal pay deal, job cuts, altered T&Cs and the spectre of enforced redundancy looming large over the engineering and ATSA staff.

I'd accept the deal without reservation if it applied across the board and we weren't still splashing out money on the whims of management.

And let me tell you, I would not hesitate in taking industrial action should the ATSA staff, or any other group of my colleagues, be forced into needless redundancy.....

[fisbangwollop]

My no vote posted........also to me the dividend hand out was the last straw.....the straw that broke the camels back maybe??.........30 years ago we all...ATSA's ATCE,ATCo and yes our Managers all worked to achieve the same outcome.....that was to shift traffic in a "SAFE" and expedicous way......today the guys on the shop floor continue to do the same and a good job they do.......sadly the managements only aim to me now is how we can save more money, and what we save how much can we feed the shareholders to keep them happy...........n other words fcuk the staff as long as the share holders are happy that all that maters..........as for safety, these swinging staff cuts we are starting to see must ultimately have an outcome on that safety...........yes safety is expensive but try having an accident and see what that costs!!!!!.........I would not like to be the one that sanctions staff cuts and see that as the reason for any ensuing mid-air!!!!!!:=

[Vote NO]

They call it "risk management", but this lot couldn't manage to break wind :eek:. The corporate manslaughter legislation would see them swing but I bet they would squeal "it was not me gov" blame the guy wearing the headset, he should have asked for help sooner.....:mad:

[anotherthing]

I honestly think that middle and senior management have already started down the road of a 'blame culture' and 'passing the buck'.

Why else would they have so many new 'cover your arse' schemes running? It's the same with the raft of new engraved 'reminder' strips that appear almost weekly - they (management) don't want to (or cant be bothered to) tackle the real problem such as individual controller ability etc... instead they bring out some new OPNOT etc that they can refer back to if someone has an incident.

They don't tackle the real problem, just go for a quick 'fix'.

You are increasingly on your own in NATS now... woe betide anyone who has a nasty incident.

[autothrottle]

I don't know what others think,but I find it very sad that a once great organisation is being sytematically ripped to pieces. THE most important asset in a company are its people . Sadly no longer here. If this was france ,management would be on their knees by now, not the staff. People criticise the french, but make no mistake they would NEVER allow management to screw them into the ground, like we have.

[White Hart]

Northerner

"..but it's not going to win you the support you really need..."

I and my ATSA 2 colleagues have spent the last 3 years expending time, effort and energy into simply trying to justify our very existence at LL Tower, and all to no avail.

On a personal/local level, the battle to garner support for the Heathrow ATSA2's would appear to be lost already. I appreciate that you and Ceannairceach may be prepared to put your ars*s on the line in the collective ATSA defence, but for every individual like yourselves, there are 49 others who will 'talk the talk' only, and another 50 who couldn't give a flying FK for anybody else save themselves. So, to the rest of you 'non-ATSAs' out there, ask yourself honestly which of the above groups you fit into - and just bear in mind that one day you too may find yourselves in a similar position to us.

Here's the bit that really sends my blood pressure into overdrive - we're continually told how 'important' we are to 'the team', and how 'essential' our presence is when the sh*t hits the fan. All fanny fart and utter bollox :mad: - it has made not a single jot of difference when push really came to shove! There is no support for us, and judging by the way that the ATCOs have leapt to our defence in the past (HAH!) and the current staff mindset (look after No.1), I expect there will be nothing forthcoming by way of support for the rest of the ATSA crew across NATS from anywhere else within the workforce, either. :yuk:

The tasks and the problems which surface when equipment fails have not disappeared - they are just going to be dished out to others - YOU! The support grades are/were your extra pair of hands in such situations. All we are now is the sacrificial lambs - its a done deal. And, by looking at whats going on, and how many of us will soon be dealt the sh*ttiest hand in the deck, we can now also see where your priorities lie. :hmm:


enjoy your payrise, folks, and pray our 'electronic replacements' dont ever let you down.

[Vote NO]

Autothrottle
I don't know what others think,but I find it very sad that a once great organisation is being sytematically ripped to pieces. THE most important asset in a company are its people . Sadly no longer here. If this was france ,management would be on their knees by now, not the staff. People criticise the french, but make no mistake they would NEVER allow management to screw them into the ground, like we have.





I agree entirely. I used to be be proud to work for NATS, now I and my colleagues feel undervalued and get the impression we are no more than an irritation to management. I wonder who they think separates the aircraft and brings in the bucks for NATS. Most of them will be gone in the next 10 months with a shed load of cash leaving the company leaner and a dam sight meaner!:mad:

[anotherthing]

Not a conspiracy theory or anything but a little birdy has informed me that at a busy business orientated airport in Hants, a lot of postal votes for the Pension Ballot were placed in the NATS external Mail slot.

It was unfortunate for the substantial number of voters at that unit that it was not until after the ballot closed that it was discovered the mail had not been sent resulting in a large number of votes not being counted (allegedly a high proportion of 'NO' votes - not enough to change the result mind).

Use Royal Mail!!!

[Vote NO]

Have we all read PB's latest announcement today, pleading poverty and the potential for compulsory redundancies :eek:

Nice timing in the middle of the pay ballot :mad:

[General_Kirby]

What an absolute tosser! Removing himself and his cronies would save a few pennies. As would concentrating on providing ATC instead of assembling teams to start new projects......Does he just see ATC as a sideline?

[Vote NO]

Dear Colleague

In my last business update to you I explained the balance that is required in seeking to reward our employees, satisfy shareholders and maintain a healthy and viable company during a recession. Some of you may also remember me talking about the importance of profit as it enables us to achieve these objectives. However, generating profit is becoming more challenging because of falling traffic levels, rising costs and significant pressure on prices as we consult customers about Control Period 3.

This is why it continues to be important to save £45m from NERL’s controllable operating cost base by the end of Control Period 2 (March 2011). I last updated you on the progress we are making at the end of February and since then a number of decisions have been taken about how we intend to make the remaining cost savings. I would like to share these with you.

Before I go further, I want to be clear about the £45m, as I think there is some confusion surrounding it. Our controllable operating costs are around £321m per year. We have to identify ways to reduce this cost base by £45m by the end of Control Period 2 (March 2011) and thereby bring it down to £276m per year. Importantly, these savings then have to be sustained on an ongoing basis and costs cannot subsequently be brought back in to the business.

What we’ve done so far

So far we have secured savings worth £23 million. This has been achieved by focusing on our top priorities and bringing forward plans which have enabled us to release a number of contractors and permanent employees. I appreciate that for many of the line managers and employees concerned, this hasn’t been an easy process.

Over 90 contractors have been released in total – most of whom have already left the business. 160 permanent employees will be leaving the business on a voluntary basis through this financial year.

As a consequence, affected business areas are working to ensure that outstanding projects and activities are stopped, slowed down or redistributed.

Through local plans that your General Managers have been working on, we are confident that we can secure and deliver savings of a further £6 million by the end of Control Period 2. Elsewhere in our central business plan we should be able to save a further £5 million by the end of Control Period 2.

This leaves £11 million to find before the end of Control Period 2.

Making the remaining savings

We have spent the last couple of months considering a wide range of options and talking to our Trade Union colleagues. As a consequence we have decided to focus on four particular areas through which we intend to make efficiencies, each one of which will be sponsored by a member of the Executive team:

Operational Resourcing

This is about making savings at the heart of the operation. Working with our Trade Union colleagues, its primary focus will be on manpower requirements, working practices and rostering at our centres, affecting both ATCOs and ATSAs. The intention is to find efficiencies through better rostering and efficiently applying existing working practices. We will also explore changes to working practices where this would be beneficial.

Night-Time Operations

During the night shift both Swanwick and Prestwick are operational with minimal air traffic. This results in an inefficient and costly service from the perspective of resources used. We therefore believe there is some scope to deliver a more cost-effective and efficient night time operation.

Centres as Businesses

This is about understanding exactly how much it costs for our centres to operate and includes activities undertaken by external and internal suppliers to a centre such as ATC support services and Facilities Management. By having complete transparency of these costs it will enable our centres to understand and compare all of the costs of delivering the ATC service, to challenge their suppliers and ensure that we deliver the best value for money.

Teams involving people from right across the business are being put together for each one of the above projects and our Trade Union colleagues have been invited to participate in each of them.

Overhead Value Analysis

This sounds complicated but it’s a simple way to help individual business areas establish which activities they should be doing less of, tackle more efficiently or stop doing altogether. This is particularly important for those areas which have already released or, are in the process of releasing people and need to ensure that work load is appropriately managed. Supported by experts from the business, it will be rolled out to business areas from June so that they can identify their own action plans.

By October we will have a better idea of the savings each of these projects can produce and the exact timeframes in which we will deliver them. We will also understand whether we need to take further steps to secure any remaining savings needed. However, I can say with certainty that the outcomes of these projects, together with local plans will lead to further redundancies. We will try to achieve this through voluntary means and remain committed to the principles of theredeployment and redundancy agreement. Also non-staff costs will be challenged.

NATS does have a positive future beyond these difficult times. However, right now we need to continue to take decisive action to ensure we start Control Period 3 with a lower cost base and shape our business to be agile and responsive for when the economy returns and generates growth in flights and our income.

As always you have my commitment that I will keep you informed about what this means for you and our business.

Regards

Paul Barron
Chief Executive, NERL

[Vote NO]

Prepare to bend over............. you know what's next :uhoh:

[dallas2]

We need to find 11 million by the end of CP2, and we've just given 4 times that away. Unbelievable!!!!

[Roffa]

Perhaps Mr Barron's parting gift will be to provoke the first (NATS) ATC strike in some 30 years :D

[Radarspod]

That is what all of the union communications have suggested. Let's hope we have the balls to do so (we are the union, remember!):ok:

RS

[eyeinthesky]

It's not just £11m (or £45m) as a one-off. It's £11m (or £45m) off the cost base from the end of CP2 onwards into CP3.(Although I admit not giving £43m away now would have given us some breathing space to find the long-term reductions).

[Loki]

Hmmmm,

"Night-Time Operations

During the night shift both Swanwick and Prestwick are operational with minimal air traffic. This results in an inefficient and costly service from the perspective of resources used. We therefore believe there is some scope to deliver a more cost-effective and efficient night time operation. "

Has he heard the word Uberlingen?

[Asda]

During the night shift both Swanwick and Prestwick are operational with minimal air traffic. This results in an inefficient and costly service from the perspective of resources used. We therefore believe there is some scope to deliver a more cost-effective and efficient night time operation.


Yes, true. Probably a bit like firemen. Most fires happen during the day, and firemen are expensive when they do nothing, so send them home at night, that'll save some money. You don't mind being on hold until the next shift do you?

[DC10RealMan]

I wonder if the robber Barron is a relative of a the Chairman of the CAA who when visiting West Drayton about 20 years ago asked "Why do we have all you people on nightshifts when Heathrow is closed at night?"

[Lookatthesky]

"Night-Time Operations

During the night shift both Swanwick and Prestwick are operational with minimal air traffic. This results in an inefficient and costly service from the perspective of resources used. We therefore believe there is some scope to deliver a more cost-effective and efficient night time operation. "

How exactly?

by closing sectors and screwing the airlines around? (Brilliant service delivery that one)

By reducing the staff?

How?

:ugh::mad::mad:

[Quincy M.E.]

I get the feeling PB is using the recession as an excuse for all this bollokcs: the pay 'rise' and cost cutting etc.

No vote will be posted tonight. :mad:

[anotherthing]

The £45M a year saving is to protect profits... Barron states it clearly here:

However, generating profit is becoming more challenging because of falling traffic levels, rising costs and significant pressure on prices as we consult customers about Control Period 3
and here:

This is why it continues to be important to save £45m from NERL’s controllable operating cost base by the end of Control Period 2
It is ostensibly because of traffic levels etc. Therefore at some point in the future when traffic rises, we will be making normal profits plus £45M at least.


Before I go further, I want to be clear about the £45m, as I think there is some confusion surrounding it.
Does the patronising idiot not realise that we do understand it? I think this is a reference to comments about the dividend payout.

What people are hacked off about is the fact that the £43M could have been used to offset costs until such time as we brought savings sensibly into line.

Hell, with a bit of foresight and planning we could even have said we would use £9M of the profit a year for the next 5 years, therefore only needing to find a saving of £36M per year. Traffic levels in 5 years time will be at least as high as 2007. This is obvioulsy very simplified, but you get my drift.

A simple (fictional) analogy - I no longer get my guaranteed 5 AAVAs a year which I stupidly relied on to survive. I therefore have to make a saving of £2k a year to make up for this. This is for the forseeable future as traffic levels are low.

I suddenly win £2k on the lottery :O. A one-off windfall. Do I:

a). Spunk the money on a holiday because it is a one-of windfall :ugh:

or

b). Use it towards the savings I find myself having to make, thus making a smaller burden on my future finances?

Making the savings:

Operational Resourcing There are already rumours in TC that say ATSAs will no longer be aligned to watches but will in fact be in one big pool with individual rostering.

It is a known fact that Management want ATCOs to do this as well.

Night-Time Operations Purely from a TC perspective (though I'm sure all other units have similar circumstances)... Every single night ATCOs in TC bandbox different sector groups to reduce the manning burden. This is done voluntarily and is not enforceable.

It is done under goodwill even though our comms equipment has not been approved for cross coupling by management... which would make the process easier and safer instead of the constant closing and opening of frequencies whcih must drive AC bonkers with pain in the arse phone calls at 2 in the morning.

If ATCOs were to work normal bandboxed sector configurations instead of bandboxing different sector groups together, TC would need at least 6 more ATCOs per night shift to operate legally. Considering this is an extra 50% of manpower, it is not insignificant. This extra manpower is currently used to shore up numbers during the day by the use of spin shifts.

The ATSAs in TC are already at the bare minimum for nightshifts after the recent VRs.

This announcement by Barron has been timed to hit the streets whilst the pay ballot is open. It is written in a way that will make people doubt the viability of the companys finances and to make them worry about job security.

Is the timing a mere coincidence?

Nowhere in his e-mail does Barron thank the staff for the hard work and effort they continue to do despite them being worried about job security.

Again in TC (just as an example and I know it is not unique in this), ATCOs work extra sectors over and above contract. About 75% of us do this, the number would be higher but not everyone can be released to cross train due to staffing levels or inexperience on their primary sector (newly valid). This is all goodwill but the OPs room would not run without it.

This extra work ethic extends way beyond ATCOs though. All grades do it, the office workers at CTC who we like to give a hard time are no different... in fact a lot of them work huge amounts of extra unpaid hours to bring projects etc in on time.

Management take this for granted - as is evident by lack of any acknowledgement by Barron in his latest missive.

We are getting briefs from our OMs over the next few weeks which include Vision 2011. I think one of the headlibes of Visions was 'Liberating and Inspiring People'.

Barron has completely failed to do this in his message. Not only does he patronise his staff, but he tries scaremongering whilst not even thanking staff for their continued support (of NATS, not him).

Basic man management principles that our Chief Executive either doesn't care about, or has forgotten about in his scramble to instill fear in the workforce whilst the pay ballot is open.

Vote 'No' to show the Board our feeling about the way we are being treated - we have no other means of doing this at the moment.

More jobs will be shed even with a 'yes' vote so don't fool yourselves into believing otherwise.

[DC10RealMan]

I am sure that NATS management think that Uberlingen is a company quoted on the German stock exchange, if it is not then they are not interested. Call me old fashioned but if there is a flight safety hazard as some of you think then surely you as individuals should be raising your concerns with the Civil Aviation Authority.

[gilaine]

Brand values are coming along nicely, so far we've manage to liberate 250 people from the bondage of employment.

I wonder what the real meaning of "inspiring" is going to be...

[kats-I]

DC10RealMan

Call me old fashioned but if there is a flight safety hazard as some of you think then surely you as individuals should be raising your concerns with the Civil Aviation Authority.

But isn't the guy at the top the one they brought into privatise us..won't get much sympathy there then!!:{:confused:

[General_Kirby]

So much for all the TRM bollox if he now doesnt want us to work with the same watch or team most of the time. NO vote in the post.

[DC10RealMan]

KATS-I

I think that you are missing the point. You claim that you are all professionals and therefore if you all believe that there is a flight safety hazard then you are legally and morally bound to bring it to the attention of the CAA. If however, the CAA does not agree then you have fulfilled your obligations both personally and professionally. If an accident occurs due to a failure in the system and you have not reported it then Barron and his cohorts can claim with some justifaction that they were unaware of it and the blame will stay with the workers, if however they were told and nothing was done due to financial or other restrictions then they (the management) have no defence.

[mr.777]

Rostering changes? 6 on 3 off here we come.

And the worst thing is that we brought it on ourselves by voting the pension changes through.That was our opportunity to stand up to this idiot. Now we are ROYALLY f*cked.

[ProM]

I agree with DC10, but i would suggest you do so many times over.

One person described a hazard and weakness in current/poposed system, and ensures this is recorded. Maybe Mgt disregard, but if anything happens they can be found negligent

20 people report the same hazard (in their own words). Mgt have to address it. You may still not like their answer but they have to address it.

If you still aren't satisfied then alert the union, who are empowereed to act on safety issues. they could also coordinate with the CAA.

IF you believe there really is a safety issue, then you are morally obliged to do this. And you are negligent if you don't IMO

[kats-I]

A shed load of money wasted on TRM..everyone said so at the time but no...management knew better about what to spend/waste money on.:ugh::eek: They obviously didn't learn anything about teamwork from it.

[Ceannairceach]

TRM anyone? Destinations? New Horizons? How about some ludicrous, unnecessary re-branding? Project 2011? C4P? SAP? NIBS? Business Warehouse? How about SACTA?

Or any number of other ways to pee pee cash up the wall.

Here's a revolutionary idea; let's cut the American pseudo-psycho nonsense and the forced, irrelevant ways in which we can all be made to seem and feel happy clappy, none of which work, and get back to stopping stuff banging into each other.

Too many chiefs with too many semi-non-air traffic related and more to the point expensive projects to flap around CTC about with countless other managers and middle-managers.

Let's have controllers, have assistants, have engineers, have those who manage them and have a simple admin structure to back the whole kit and caboodle up. It worked in the past, and it'd work now - and let me tell you something, it'd put a hell of a lot of pride back into my working life and I dare say, the working life of most of my colleagues.

[mr.777]

F**cking A. :D:D:D

[Roffa]

Rostering changes? 6 on 3 off here we come.

Only if we let them.

This company is its staff and the time for us all to stand up and be counted draws ever nearer.

[halo]

I have become enormously convinced that he is just making up phrases that previously never existed.

[Vote NO]

I am beginning to think we are rapidly becoming the Ryanair of ATC :\

Cash is King :ok:
http://www.wxlnradio.com/Gif/radar.gif



http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/consumerist/2009/03/moreryanairfees.jpg

[ZOOKER]

Ceannairceach,
You forgot about 'Training 2008'.

[Ceannairceach]

I don't think it'd be fair, or professional, or even right of us to start picking out individuals by name for a slating other than the usual suspects who ask for it anyway.

And quite frankly, if we don't start standing up over the things we really ought to defend ourselves against, then we're the ones to blame......the buck stops with us this time I'm afraid.

Besides, if I started to listed all of the management/lazy types I held responsible for the frittering away of cash in past times, then quite frankly I'd be here for hours and hours and hours.....

It's our company, it's time we stood up and fought for it. Simple as that.

[White Hart]

"It's our company, it's time we stood up and fought for it."

already too late for some of us, and probably for a good few more.

same old problem, though. The issue here is not simply a case of an annual pay rise. There is far more to it than that, and the money factor is only one part of the overall problem. Here we see (yet again) ATCOs arguing about how much money they should get, and the rest of us trying to argue a case for retention within the Company. Game over for us as long as the ATCOs fail to admit that there is a (safety/workload) case for having sufficient support staff, and then have the balls to stand up to retain them. ( unless of course you think there isn't a case for having support staff and you can and will do it all yourselves :hmm:) Like I said earlier, the support tasks are not going away - they are just being redistributed to yourselves in many cases. Whatever happened to the argument for providing a SAFE and EFFICIENT air traffic service?? :mad:


yep, I accept you have to argue the case for extra pay, but you've already blown your strength and potential for aggressive strategy at the negotiating table by rolling over on the pension changes, and now you're all fannying around waiting to see what Mgmt have in mind for you next about pay, conditions, rosters, contracts, NERL/NSL - you name it.

Prospect and its members must draw a line in the sand and do it now! You must look further than just the pay issue. If you don't stop the rot now, then you are making the rod that will help to break your own backs later on.

FWIW, I am certain you will receive 100% support from PCS and its members - FFS, they sorely need to know that you really and truly value them and their input as part of the ATC service, and they definitely need your support just to remain a viable part of the operation in the future.

[Avoiding_Action]

Does a bite mark in a ballot paper cause it to be spoiled?

[White Hart]

only if you made it whilst you were bent over the desk in the Manager's office, happily and willingly receiving the latest instalment of why NATS' policies are good for you.

[Avoiding_Action]

My dog did it. :O

No really he did.

[hold at SATAN]

Even your dog knows how crap the pay deal is! :ok:

I'd strongly suggest you get in touch with the union and get a new voting form, unless you're going to vote yes, in which case let Fido finish off the rest of it! :eek:

[DC10RealMan]

I am amused by White Harts "line in the sand". I would have thought that it would have been blown away by all the bluff and bluster of the unions and by all the hot air here on Pprune. If you are all going on strike for an extra 2-3% then you have my respect although I shall eat my hat together with an extra dollop of humble pie for dessert if you do. In my opinion if you did not strike against privatisation in principle and stealing your pension worth potentially hundreds of thousands of pounds to each individual then striking in the depth of a recession/depression is a non-starter and the management know that. I am sure that your previous record with regard to strike or work to rule action or more accurately non-action speaks volumes.

[anotherthing]

DC10RealMan

you have hit the nail on the head sir. We won't strike over pay, management and our union know it.

The fact that 30% of people couldn't even be arsed to return the pension ballot form says it all.

I think the pay offer is derisory considering all other things alongside it (dividend payment, Barrons latest spiel, reshuffling of jobs in certain departments etc).

However our union, considered weak by many members, has been weakened further by our apathy. They have no clout when it comes to negotiations because management know the membership will roll over and lets it's belly be rubbed.

If only there was another Union option but I think it needs 30% of the workforce to join it to have it recognised...

[kats-I]

anotherthing

I'm sure if there was another union option that would put the workers first then I think you would get a lot more than 30% to join it..do you know of one.?

I don't know anyone yet who is saying yes to the payrise but what's the betting it comes out with a "YES" majority.. :ugh: postal votes??? call me cynical but hey...:rolleyes:

[Ceannairceach]

As I'm a bit further left of Marx and Lenin, I was prepared to strike against privatisation, and the changes to the pension scheme. But, to be honest, I wouldn't have the cheek to strike over the pay deal.....not really anything to do with the doom and gloom being proffered at the moment.... just a personal thing.

But if it comes to compulsory redundancies, once again, I'd be prepared to put my money where my mouth is, without hesitation, and walk out to support my colleagues.

The very fact that when it comes down to it we don't stick together en masse when faced with these issues, as in the past, is the very crux of our undoing as a workforce and a company. And, the most galling thing is therefore, we're reaping what greed and a lack of unitity has sown.

[kats-I]

This could be the straw that breaks..etc:}
Its obvious management and the unions think we will sit and take the crap. Maybe this time the worm will turn.. Our unions should not have made such a big case for the "YES" votes in other matters, but they know who are the weak members and seem to target them. Giving one sob story after another.

[Dad30]

can anyone give me the address to send my ballot form into, i have the voting slip but have lost the prepaid envelope.

[Vote NO]

Only if you vote no :ok:

[250 kts]

I suggest you use a device called a telephone tomorrow to contact Prospect to get the address. Oh, by the way you can get the address through an even newer invention called the internet.

[11K-AVML]

anotherthing,
I just read some of your very long post...hopefully PPRuNe will quote it.
:
Where to start?
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/358345-uk-nats-pay-negotiations-latest-rumours-68.html#post4960394

You mention that the proposed pay deal and other recent cost savings is to raise profits, but actually I don't think it's quite that straight forward. I think it's really to reduce the cost-base (ongoing cost of running the company) to please the regulator and the airlines come the CP3 agreement.

This has already been mentioned by a number of managers and also the result when assimilating the different pieces of information available, but the official line always seems to suggest it's to make a one-off cost saving. That deceit p'ss me off.

That said, I'm not yet convinced this is the appropriate way forward as the airlines will always be unhappy even if the service were free. Just look at some of the airline's comments provided to the CAA under the CP3 consultation.
The pay deal offered can't really be justified to my mind, particularly given all the concessions of recent and that most people I know, who were already working more than their salaried hours, are being forced to do so even further to given the recent redundancies. I don't know what the alternative will end up being (I suspect we'll end up being worse off), but it doesn't half seem like some people up-top are being two-faced. Considering how difficult the pension's discussions were claimed to be, this pay deal must surely be surmountable.
It would certainly be interesting working-to-rule...might reduce the stress, in the short-term at least.

[Jungle Jingle Jim]

Ask most pilots which piece of airspace in their opinion is the safest?

Most, if not all would say the UK.

I hope in 10 years time when I ask commercial pilots the same question, the financial guts have not been ripped out of NATS and in its place is a less safe flying experience for our friends?

I thought that NATS was attempting to reduce the symptoms of stress from the work place, but then on the other hand begins to alienate the folk that keep planes apart and the business viable?

ATCOs, ATSAs and Engineers are the core of our company, these are the folk that help to prevent death over Great Britain and they are not doing too bad a job...so far, but then again, what is the next cost cutting measure going to be?

[Vote NO]

Experienced ATCO's that cost too much in wages are next . 55+ and you will probably be offered VR soon. Experience obviously counts for SFA :mad: in NATS now. Its cheaper to bring the kids in from college at less than half the wage and cap their wages under a new contract :\

[ZOOKER]

And probably considerably less than half the experience.
And that's just during their time at 'the college'.

[kats-I]

Does anyone else find it strange that something as big and wide as the Local/European elections can be balloted using the little black boxes up and down the country, involving millions of voters, but our pay ballot had to be done by post instead of boxes at units???

Perhaps I've got a suspicious mind..no wonder really though.:p

[chiglet]

Does anyone else find it strange that something as big and wide as the Local/European elections can be balloted using the little black boxes up and down the country, involving millions of voters, but our pay ballot had to be done by post instead of boxes at units???

Ahh, but they have a "Neutral" person...with a "supervisor" to ensure a fair count and especially a recount. That costs serious dosh.....
Nuff sed

[PeltonLevel]

they have a "Neutral" person.Actually, they have a minimum of two people available to watch each box throughout the time when the election is open, the box is held in secure storage between close of poll and the count (with police on hand) and the boxes are opened with representatives of all protagonists witnessing the count. Imagine doing that FOR EACH NATS SITE WHERE THERE ARE UNION MEMBERS FOR THE PERIOD WHEN THE BALLOT IS OPEN!

Give up the conspiracy theories - cockups DO happen!

[kats-I]

PeltonLevel

Give up the conspiracy theories - cockups DO happen!

Yes "cockups" do happen but for the important things in life a failsafe should be put in to ensure they don't.!!

You obviously think there was a "cockup" somewhere along the line and if you are happy with that ...fine..but if a "cockup" means I (and others) lose out on pension and paydeals then believe me I'm not happy!!:\:mad::mad:

Who said it has to be a union guy watching over the boxes? As long as they are locked and tamperproof then any nominated union member could care for them!:=

[kats-I]

PeltonLevel

Also when there is a local ballot at units for "Trivial" things then the union/management is quite happy to leave the boxes lying around the ops rooms for days unattended!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[PeltonLevel]

You obviously think there was a "cockup" somewhere along the line
Yes - I think there were cockups with the pension vote - not every eligible member seems to have received a ballot paper. Whether that is the fault of the Post Office, the unions or the members themselves, I cannot judge. I have to say I have very little experience of lost mail (although a friend in the direct mail business says it is not uncommon and I must admit to neither knowing nor caring whether unsolicited mail has gone missing.)

[Minesapint]

Has there been some sort of vote - no ballot paper for me - again!
:suspect::suspect:

[kats-I]

Minesapint

I'm sure you're joking but if not ...Where have you been?:eek:

Get on to your rep immediately and get a voting form sent to you.. times running out.:eek:

[jonny B good]

Missing Ballot Papers

If you have not recieved a ballot paper contact your Central Union Office, not your rep. The rep cannot have another ballot sent out, only the central office. Also, it is likely they may only send it to the address you have registered with them, hence the need to make sure you keep your contact details up to date.

Vote YES or NO, but at least vote! :ok:

[kats-I]

jonny B good,

Thanks for correction..wasn't sure who he should contact but knew his rep would send him in right direction...hopefully.:ok:

[opnot]

VOTE NO
I would have thought that a 55+ atco with say 5 years to go is cheaper to employ than a 45+ atco on the same scale point with 15 years to go

[Vote NO]

A 45+ ATCO won't take VR, but a 55+ ATCO might

[expediteoff]

"A 45+ ATCO won't take VR, but a 55+ ATCO might "

Don't bank on it - depends what the terms of the VR offered were!!

[Vote NO]

Unlikely to exceed 3 years wages :oh:

[Ahh-40612]

VR - stop getting my hopes up!

Old git wanting to get out ASAP.

[Vote NO]

Don't rule it out if you are in mid fifties :ok:

[hold at SATAN]

For those who haven't yet received their voting forms you MUST get in touch with the Central Union Office. The Vote closes on 18th June (week on thursday) so really it needs to be posted by Tuesday 16th June at the very latest.

I've Voted No because i think the deal is crap, especially as the bosses have just received their bonuses (it's alright for some) which runs into the tens of thousands and in some cases, 6 figures (hundreds of thousands):mad::mad:

But whatever you do, just send off your vote, either way. Apathy will be the worst outcome - just look at yesterday's Euro election turnout!

[expediteoff]

How do I go about joining the RMT?

[Me Me Me Me]

email them and ask them to send you an application form. :ok:

wont do you any good if you work for NATS tho

I dont think it's coincidence that the first major ballot issue after we had some large scale relocations is where a lot of people didn't receive their ballot papers. Be honest... If you're one of them, did you bother to change your contact address with Prospect/PCS before the vote was arranged?

[expediteoff]

Never had a problem receiving a ballot paper for any vote - I always keep my details up to date!

Just thought it would be a nice change to have representation that recommended taking the fight to management over such things as - pay deals based on last years RPI, and fighting for promises made during privatisation regarding changes to members terms and conditions (Both main reasons of the present RMT dispute)

(and yes I've been on the BEC in the past and I'm a current rep at my unit)

[11K-AVML]

I think I know which way to vote, but just before I do, can anyone give me the arguments for voting "yes" and "no" in case I missed something?
(there is a lot of argument for no in this thread, but I'm hoping the yes's can be summarised too).

[kats-I]

Can't think of any reason to vote "YES" other than insanity..so get that vote into the post asap.:):ok:

[eglnyt]

There's no argument for or against it's all down to your own opinion.

Vote Yes if you think in the current climate it's a fair offer and you are happy with it.

Vote Yes if you think it's the best offer that can be got through negotiation alone and either aren't prepared to take industrial action, think that industrial action won't improve the offer or think that your job might be at risk if industrial action or a bigger payrise will result in NATS needing to save more money than it currently suggests.

Vote No if you think the offer is too poor to consider.

Vote No if you think there is better to be had by either the threat of industrial action or actual industrial action and, most importantly, you are prepared to take that action.

Don't vote if you really want to upset some of the people on this forum :), although personally I think it's perfectly valid not to vote if you really can't decide which way to vote

[kats-I]

If you are not sure which way to vote..Vote yes and if overall Yes vote goes through and then if you are not happy with outcome of what is really on offer you can't feel hard done by ...Vote No and there maybe a chance..no matter how small.. of something better.:confused::confused:

[11K-AVML]

The dilema I feel is that the actual amount of pay that this all equates to doesn't really make much difference as my salary isn't that big.

A payment of 1 - 1.5% (per year for two years) isn't much different to nothing at all.

My main reason to vote no wouldn't be to hope for more pay, but to show managment that I don't appreciate their recent changes to employees conditions in general and how they go about things. I know their real intention is for CP3 not just the current economic conditions.

The vote yes would be because it's not a pay cut and it looks good in comparison to elsewhere in the industry thus I wouldn't feel guilty about appearing to want a greater increase...:ugh:

I am starting to come to a conclusion, even if it does feel like it'll be a shot in one of my feet. I suppose it's about taking a medium-term verse long-term view on things.

[anotherthing]

11K-AVML

I'm with kats-I - if you don't really care either way, then I think a 'Yes' vote is the way ahead for anyone.

The advice from eglnyt saying

Don't vote if you really want to upset some of the people on this forum http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif, although personally I think it's perfectly valid not to vote if you really can't decide which way to vote
is very poor in my opinion. I don't understand how anyone can't have some slight opinion in this.

Not voting, either way, is not good for the union. Whatever anyone's thoughts are about the union, not voting plays into the hands of management because it makes them believe that the members are happy to just bumble along and let anything happen.

I know of one airport rep who has stated that his colleagues at his unit are mostly voting 'no' (how true that is is another matter as it is usually the 'no' voters who are more prepared to say anything - the 'yes' voters are less vociferous).

However this rep has also said that there are more important issues to worry about in the future and that he wishes people would vote yes this time.

I think he is alluding to the future of NSL, but whatever, it has nothing to do with the pay vote. We have been told by the union since PPP that we will keep our powder dry. There is always a 'more important' issue around the corner - the last one was pensions.

We caved in on that issue.

you state My main reason to vote no wouldn't be to hope for more pay, but to show managment that I don't appreciate their recent changes to employees conditions in general and how they go about things.That's one of the main reasons I am voting 'No'.

I don't want to be tied into a two year deal based on supposition - especially given the track record of NATS when it comes to financial planning.

I am also very unhappy with the fact that NATS have, according to the open letter sent over a month ago, reneged on the pension agreement already.

Coupled with a company pleading poverty to its workforce whilst paying out huge dividends, I feel that it is time we drew a line in the sand. Pay is the issue at the moment, and voting no is the only way we can start getting the ball rolling with regards to making management realise we have had enough of the lies and underhand tactics.

It is the follow up to a no vote that would really start to show management that we actually have a backbone and care abut our SAFETY industry.

A yes vote, to my mind, indicates that we are happy with the way management are handling NATS and its employees.

To anyone out there who can't be bothered - send back your voting slip - even if you spoil the paper - at least a spoiled paper shows that although you couldn't make your mind up over this issue, you can actually be bothered to return the damned thing i.e. you are not totally apathetic to issues - unlike 30% of people in the pension vote.

Not returning a voting paper makes a mockery of being in the union - there are plenty of non union memebers in NATS who pay nothing and get the pay deals we vote for - if you're not going to vote, why waste good money on a membership subscription??

[kats-I]

anotherthing

Thanks.

If this rep knows there is possibly worse to come then ideally we would need a NO vote to get management on their back foot..now..so why is he advocating we vote yes?:confused:
I would have thought a decent days pay for a lot of graft is quite important.

Each Issue has its own merits and we shouldn't be advised to vote yes "Just in case" the next issue arising is worse.:(

In fact we should not be being recommended to vote Yes or No on any issue..it should be our individual decision made on the facts presented and how we perceive them, without persuasion .
Phew!

[Standard Noise]

Ah, but not all reps are advocating a YES vote. :ok:

[Vote NO]

eglnyt
There's no argument for or against it's all down to your own opinion.

Vote Yes if you think in the current climate it's a fair offer and you are happy with it.

Vote Yes if you think it's the best offer that can be got through negotiation alone and either aren't prepared to take industrial action, think that industrial action won't improve the offer or think that your job might be at risk if industrial action or a bigger payrise will result in NATS needing to save more money than it currently suggests.

Vote No if you think the offer is too poor to consider.

Vote No if you think there is better to be had by either the threat of industrial action or actual industrial action and, most importantly, you are prepared to take that action.

Don't vote if you really want to upset some of the people on this forum http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif, although personally I think it's perfectly valid not to vote if you really can't decide which way to vote


So basically :rolleyes: just VOTE NO :)

otherwise when you see NATS financial results (enormous profits) in 10 days time, you will be kicking yourself for voting yes :E and letting PB and his roughnecks shaft you again :ugh:

[kats-I]

Standard Noise

I appreciate that fact..and thank God they aren't!! I just wonder why there are still some that are, knowing how the majority of staff.. across the board.. feel.
:confused:

Oh well, it'll all be over soon and we'll know if we have been sold down the river AGAIN??? or not.:suspect:

[Radarspod]

knowing how the majority of staff.. across the board.. feel.

That's a very bold statement and until last week I would have thought it to be the case myself, but to my surprise among a group of fellow engineers who the vast majority (:}) are quite switched on that I've had a debate with, I found myself in the minority in choosing to vote no and they all put good arguments forward. Goes to show you that what you read on these forums and rest room gossip aren't always a good indication of the view of the majority.

RS

[kats-I]

The trouble with some folks is that they willing to spout off about things not being right but as soon as you ask them to stand up and be counted suddenly its a different matter and they are all too busy doing something else..looking in the other direction..NIMBY's.
But.. they are more than willing to take the benefits/rewards that others have stuck their heads over the parapet to get!!! :ugh::mad:

[Standard Noise]

kats-1 - as a rep myself, I have told the members what the official Prospect line is, but when asked my opinion of how they should vote, I have diplomatically stated that I intended to vote No and left it at that. I personally don't support the union's line on this (nor did I with the pension vote).
If there are reps out there who are urging a Yes vote, I assume it's because that's what they believe in. I don't. But then it is a free vote and people will act as they did with the last cock up, I mean vote. They will either swallow the company/union story hook, line and sinker.......or they won't.
I think there's too many sheep in NATS and we're looking at a Yes overall, but I hope I'm wrong.

[kats-I]

Standard Noise.

I hope you are wrong too..in the nicest way of course.:cool:

[anotherthing]

Baaa

http://www.frickandfrack.com/designs/29_sheep.gif

I think the sheep shall sway the vote unfortunately- despite the fact that NATS has already reneged on the pension terms etc. How can anyone trust them?

Wake up and smell the Starbucks - or Costa.

Was in work yesterday and heard more mutterings about a breakaway union - anyone else heard anything?

[RVR600]

Was in work yesterday and heard more mutterings about a breakaway union - anyone else heard anything?

Can not think of anything the company would like more. A divided workforce.

Although, listening to people in the work place I suspect they have succeeded in that objective already.

I agree with kats-I, in that people are willing to jump up and down about what a travesty it all is but would they have the same passion they show on an online forum if it actually came to doing something about it.

[250 kts]

Was in work yesterday and heard more mutterings about a breakaway union.

To what end?

Ultimately it will have the same group of people as members. Those very same members who have the ability to vote their reps in or out of their present roles. If there is a real dis-satisfaction with the BEC or any rep then it is within their power to change it. But they have to be confident there is someone willing to take on that role as a replacement. And if there are more militant people amongst us then why aren't they putting themselves forward in the present structure and initiating change that way?

I suspect it's because it's a damn site easier to come on here and snipe endlessly rather than get off their backsides and actually put the time in.

[viaEGLL]

The PB lambs won! It was a YES vote:(:(
I will get the KY from the cupboard again:eek::eek:

[Radarspod]

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::mad:

What's the source on that result? Can't find an email and not on intranet...

That's democracy at work, can't really complain (much):{

[kats-I]

ViaEGLL.

Was that a result throughout or just one branch..Thats a bit early isn't it?:eek:




That's democracy at work, can't really complain (much)

Democracy....Or something else??
Funny old thing ..cynical I might be..but yet again it looks like a postal vote becomes a Yes Vote!!!:=:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Oh well, no doubt something else will be thrown at us before long.

[anotherthing]

full result... I believe the vote was 53% to 47%

anyone willing to take a wager that there will be an attempt to rob the pensions again before the end of the year, citing poverty?

So, another 'yes' vote - but we will still see more jobs lost, and the remainder expected to pick up the extra tasks.

I know it's tough out there, and people may be saying we should get real, but our company is a success, no small reason for that is the work that the employees do. We're improving results year on year, paying huge dividends... we are in the real world - our 'real world' happens to be one where we are in profit,

[privatesandwiches]

Well I guess my no vote should have been used for toilet paper.
So will this be in Julys' pay????

[45 before POL]

Well, not the result I hoped for but 53/47 is tighter than management might have like. Showing more than the pension how many pi$$3d off employeees they have at the moment. Well majority rules....or did it....how many did not bother to vote this time???

[mr.777]

No surprise it got voted in, even if the margin was only 6%. I now look forward to having my pension further degraded, individual rostering and 6 on 3 off.

[kats-I]

Thanks to all those who voted yes...for nothing!!! Enjoy your 30 pieces of silver, it won't last long.:=
To all those who didn't vote..Don't go bleating when things get worse. You had your chance and blew it..BIG TIME!!!:ugh::ugh:

At the end of the day though I do appreciate that it was your vote and you voted as you saw fit.:p Just wish we didn't have to keep being put in these positions.

[anotherthing]

Still hearing mutterings of a breakaway union... not sure if someone is pulling my leg or not... will dig further. If anyone else hears anything in the meantime, could you post details please?

[hold at SATAN]

Anotherthing full result... I believe the vote was 53% to 47%


Are your sure or just speculating? I didn't think they'd count the vote and announce until after the weekend.

Damned shame if it is a Yes vote.


PS: Mr777 we already work 6(or is it 7?) on 3 off: day7 is about 80% of a nightshift/sleep day, followed by 3 days off :ok:

[Geffen]

Result as above, just got e-mail from prospect stating the same. 71% response from the ATCO branch.

[mr.777]

Mr777 we already work 6(or is it 7?) on 3 off: day7 is about 80% of a nightshift/sleep day, followed by 3 days off

Fair point SATAN, but I think you know what I was getting at:ok:

71% turnout is a disgrace in my view. Just heard a great quote from Bob Crow on 5Live.."if you're not willing to fight for your job, your pay and your pension, whats the point of being in a trade union? You might as well be in a video club." The other 29% should bear that in mind.

[kats-I]

I can't believe that over 500 people didn't bother to vote!! Either way!! What is the point if you are paying dues and not using your voice?? AARRGGHH!:rolleyes::eek:


Result on ATCO site

[Radarspod]

ATSS results

915 papers sent out

602 papers returned

461 YES
141 NO

66% papers returned

77% VOTING YES
23% VOTING NO


Somewhat different numbers, but same result

RS

[aaaabbbbcccc1111]

After the poor turnout with the pension vote, why couldn't we have had this vote done in the ops room. God only knows why people cannot be arsed to post a freepost letter into a postbox, even just pop it into the outmail at work, but they obviously cant. I am really concerned now after losing this vote. I see RPI did better than expected this month and it is no where near the estimate of -3.9% in Aug 09. What have we done???

[anotherthing]

As stated, The 'Yes' vote wins the day.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3576/3641083616_964f5b5720_o.jpg

[121decimal375]

That sums it up perfectly!

[Del Prado]

53/47 split? wish I'd voted now.:eek:

[privatesandwiches]

Another one on the chalk board for management then.
I was going to wait until I left, but as of today, union membership has been cancelled.
Good luck to all left fighting the fight, looks like you will need it!!!

[aaaabbbbcccc1111]

Private, I am probably going to leave also as I dont see the point in paying £16 or so a month which gives me the right to have a vote, when nearly 30% of its members cannot be bothered to vote. I am more annoyed with the non voters than I am with prospect. In fact if prospect would have proposed the original derisory offer from management, that too would have been voted in, management probably knew that as did prospect. So do we owe a debt of gratitude to prospect for getting us this deal, knowing as we all know that anything would have been voted in.

[Radarspod]

when nearly 30% of its members cannot be bothered to vote

So are you saying that you would accept the result if it had been 100% turnout? Or would you still be crying foul as it wasn't what you wanted?:E

[kats-I]

Aabbcc111
What have we done???

If you voted no then "WE" haven't done anything..just the yes voters who really didn't look at bigger picture. Screwed again.


Del Prado
53/47 split? wish I'd voted now.
If wishes were horses tramps wouldn't walk!!! so can't change anything now.

anotherthing

Lovely ..says everything ..can we have a weekly strip (cartoon that is !!):cool::D

[aaaabbbbcccc1111]

So are you saying that you would accept the result if it had been 100% turnout? Or would you still be crying foul as it wasn't what you wanted

Well I am accepting the result. There is nothing that can be done about it. I have not cried foul at all. I think it is a poor show when nearly 1 in 3 cannot be bothered to vote on such an important issue as pension and pay. I do feel that if the vote was conducted at polling stations at work then there would be a higher turn out.

[Corona&Lime]

For me the worst aspect is again the turn out.

It is beyond comprehension how such a huge number of people are either too bone idle to put pen to paper and use the PREPAID envelope or just don't care enough to cast a vote.:ugh:

One point i would like to make is that part of the reason why the union recommended this offer was because in their opinion RPI for August would more than likely be -3.5% or worse. I questioned this at the time as i failed to see how it would ever fall to that level. RPI at the turn of the year was 0% and by April it was -1.2%. May has just been published as -1.1% and as it stands at the moment both the US and UK are saying the worst of the recession is over. That gives us a blended RPI of 3.7% and we will get 3% based on today's figures. Using predictions of RPI to get a pay deal is NOT a good method.


Now that a YES has been voted through my concern is the ability to get the back pay right. Once you factor in back pay(including any spine point increases), OJTI pay(both activation and hourly payment, with a spine point increase in april), Pension and NI it becomes a very complicated affair. How is anyone supposed to be able to check that it is all correct when it finally gets paid.

Answers on a postcard.:}

[Standard Noise]

Mmm, yes, it is a bit disturbing that 29% of Prospect members aren't mentally intelligent enough to put a cross in a little box*, lick an envelope and put it in a post box. Are these the ones in the offices or are they still operational?:eek:

*Be it a Yes or a No

[Me Me Me Me]

Now that a YES has been voted through my concern is the ability to get the back pay right. Once you factor in back pay(including any spine point increases), OJTI pay(both activation and hourly payment, with a spine point increase in april), Pension and NI it becomes a very complicated affair. How is anyone supposed to be able to check that it is all correct when it finally gets paid.

Answers on a postcard.

I'm sure the guys in payroll often come round to check that you're doing your job right! Leave it to the people who are paid to do it :ok:

Best option when you get your July payslip is to make sure the gross payments are right. i.e. check your gross pay and allowances against the published pay scales. Any errors here should be highlighted to HR.

If the gross payments are right then the guys in payroll will take care of the rest. 4,000 amateurish PAYE calculations will just make their day I bet!

[Me Me Me Me]

Still hearing mutterings of a breakaway union... not sure if someone is pulling my leg or not... will dig further. If anyone else hears anything in the meantime, could you post details please?

Can understand the convo being had in these frustrating times... but...

Any breakaway union wouldn't be recognised by NATS and so would not provide any representation for its members.

It could force NATS to recognise it if a high enough percentage of employees signed up. But given that a higher percentage of employees voted to accept the deal on offer, I find it exceedingly unlikely that enough would be willing to jump ship on the back of this result.

Be as well just quitting your sub and saving the cash

[anotherthing]

Corona&Lime/Me Me Me Me

I think with regards to getting the back pay correct, NATS have stated that they will be getting an outside agency in to do it as it will be fairly complicated, what with Pay Spines and SMART pensions etc.




If AUG RPI is greater (less negative) than -1.8% we will, of course, be losing out because of what we have voted in, on a 2 year deal...

[121decimal375]

And how much is an side agency going to cost?

Yet more wasted money....:mad:

[PH-UKU]

I'm sure the guys in payroll often come round to check that you're doing your job right! Leave it to the people who are paid to do it


Your faith is touching - if only it were that simple.

3 of the last 4 OJTI payments I have had have been incorrect.

I am still waiting for a breakdown of the most recent quarterly payment which was paid in April.

Doesn't exactly fill me with confidence or hope that some manager won't be trying to pull a fast one. :mad:

Anyone else have problems or is it just the second class citizens ?

[anotherthing]

PH-UKU

not happened in recent months but TC had big problems with OJTI pay being wrong/not paid a wee while ago.

[hold at SATAN]

We (the collective) are fools for falling for the management spin and will continue to be shafted. What a sad day :ugh:

[kats-I]

Hold at SATAN.

Why so hard on yourself?..if you voted NO then "WE" are not the fools..if you voted Yes..well not much more to say.:}
I'm sure a lot of Yes voters (and Abstainers) will eventually rue the day they sided with management over such an important issue.:ugh:

[anotherthing]

By having such a poor turnout we have the union we deserve... or have we...

[kats-I]

Having looked at the results of the paydeal from all 3 branches I feel that a lot of the Yes votes were given purely on the basis that the union recommended to vote that way. Some people were too lazy to think about the long-term outcome.

Union Bods ..Please, for future ballots just give us ALL the facts and keep your recommendations to yourselves. Let us decide for ourselves. Don't try to sway us either way then the blame can't be laid at anyones door.
We know you feel you did your best but to allow this to be a 2 year deal...well..:mad: :ugh::ugh:

[kats-I]

anotherthing

:eek:We deserve Sooooo much better!! Any takers??

[Hootin an a roarin]

Union Bods ..Please, for future ballots just give us ALL the facts and keep your recommendations to yourselves. Let us decide for ourselves. Don't try to sway us either way then the blame can't be laid at anyones door.

Fair point and totally agree.

However what is a breakaway union going to achieve? We have an apathetic workforce were the minority (maybe the posters on here) are militant unlike French atcos or our own RMT. A breakaway union would be the same.

Coming from a 'regional' airport the union system pi**es me off as we are forever shafted by the majority vote (NERL) which we do not have. The only time anything of value was achieved for the staff was when management refused to staff us 3 on a nightshift. A union meeting was called in the car park disrupting traffic and lo and behold we immediately got the 3 on nights.

Direct action is the only language these current bullish management types understand and until we do this, terms and conditions will be further eroded and they will be revisiting the pension issue as we rolled over for that as well. IMHO too many of my/our colleagues still deem it unprofessional to strike so expect more of a shafting. :ugh:

[hold at SATAN]

Kats-i I voted No. I totally agree with your comments regarding the recommendation - union should just say "here's what we got, what do you think?" no more, no less. Individuals can then think for themselves (and consult others if they need to, including the union) and not blindly follow the spin.

With the union "pulling" out of the working together agreement, I just can't help thinking that management don't give a crap.with the "blessing" of the majority, NATS have shafted us on the pension and now have straight-jacketed us on a $hit 2-year paydeal what's left for NATS to work toghether for?

The only thing I can think is to pull the AAVA agreement. Only then will the true status of the NATS operation be apparent.

[11K-AVML]

It would be good it ATCOs and CTC could work in partnership for a change.
ATCO's seeing CTCer's point of view, CTCer's seeing ATCO's point of view rather than being played off against one another by senior management.

[mr.777]

As much as I agree with you 11K, it'll never happen while we are in different Unions...now if we all joined ASLEF/RMT.....:E

[kats-I]

Hold at SATAN
management don't give a crap

They obviously do coz they've done it all over us!!!:uhoh:

[White Hart]

"now if we all joined ASLEF/RMT"

whether your comment was tongue-in-cheek or not, its not going to make any difference what Union (s) represent the NATS staff. The majority are not 'Union' people. Sh*t scared with a perpetually weak and self-preserving attitude, more like. When there's been a chance to stand up for ourselves, both as individuals and as a coherent and strong workforce, we've blown it at each and every opportunity. There's no strength, no resolve, no unity. The Mgmt knows this, and they've now got us all by the coconuts - even the millie-tants and the keyboard warriors. Until our attitude – not the Union - changes right across the board, we're fcukd.

[kats-I]

White Hart

A lot of people pay their dues to have someone do the talking/negotiating for them. Unfortunately not enough people question what they are told...they just blindly believe that they are getting the best deal because thats what they are being told!
How many of them would accept the first insurance quote they are given even if they are told its the best one?:ugh::rolleyes: Not many.

[mr.777]

its not going to make any difference what Union (s) represent the NATS staff

Sorry, but I don't agree at all. Whilst i think that the voting turnout was piss poor and indicated an unbelievable amount of apathy (how hard is it to cross a box ffs??), Prospect has shown itself to be weak in its dealings with NATS management. 2% payrise is fair enough...but over 2 years?? As for the pension, the whole way the issue was dealt with was shockingly poor. The much vaunted improvement in communication has not materialised...so they've got a new website...great, welcome to the 21st Century.

[White Hart]

"Unfortunately not enough people question what they are told.."

don't agree. The majority question everything and anything money-related in this Company, but they haven't got the balls to stand up to challenge Mgmt if and when neccessary. Its all down to self-preservation - a big dose of loading the gun, letting others fire the bullets, and hoping for a result.

777

Those with the front to challenge the Mgmt are the ones who think like 'Union' people, and accept and believe in 'Union' principles. The majority of NATS staff do not fall into this category.

[Ceannairceach]

Roll on the company results......

[Vote NO]

Nats financial results 08/09 should be out in 7 days :*, nice timing eh?

£67 MILLLION profit last year ( before tax)

Bet they make about £25 miilion profit for 08/09, despite giving away £43 million in dividends unnecessarily :suspect:


07/08

Financial statements NATS Limited

for the year ended 31 March 2008
The financial statements were approved by the Board of directors on 26 June 2008 and signed on its behalf by
Chairman John Devaney
Finance Director Nigel Fotherby

[kats-I]

White Hart
The majority question everything and anything money-related in this Company,

I can say I don't agree on this as I've heard countless times "What do you think?" without really listening to the answer to their question, or "I could do with the back pay money this month"!! Thinking in the short term has got us to this stage.:hmm:

[White Hart]

just to clarify - my statement should have read 'The majority question everything and anything money-related on a purely personal basis in this Company.'

The 'short term thinking' you refer to is the reason why the workforce is so weak at the bargaining table. The majority only look for the immediate personal gain, and not at the bigger issue. They may well 'talk the talk', but in reality they'd rather take something - anything - in preference to standing up and fighting for what may be better in the long run. They sure as hell won't jeopardise themselves in any way whatsoever in support or defence of themselves or others.

That's why the 'yes' or 'can't be arsed to' vote prevails. That's why it would make no difference as to which Union represented you. That's why you're fcukd.

[anotherthing]

Link from Kaboodle on another ATC thread

crapunion.co.uk (http://www.crapunion.co.uk)

[kats-I]

White Hart
Thinking in the short term has got us to this stage

I didn't mean to sound as though we were in a good place!!!..I should have said "got us in the clag or mess we are in now":{

[White Hart]

understood. a PM for you, BTW.

[eyeinthesky]

To all those who are resigning their Union membership in disgust:

Remember that the Union does not only deal with pay, but also with employee rights and advice.

If you resign your membership, you'd better hope you don't find yourself on a disciplinary investigation one day (perhaps for letting your LCC or medical expire despite the many reminders:ugh:) and wonder why the chair next to you is empty... £15 or so per month will seem a bit of a short-term saving then.

I also hope the Union is checking that anyone who requests their support in these cases is indeed a member!!

[Frank Disclosure]

Remember that the Union does not only deal with pay, but also with employee rights and advice.You can always join the T&G, or Unite as I believe they are now know, and they will represent you at disciplinary hearings.

[Nimmer]

If you want union representation look at crapunion.co.uk (http://www.crapunion.co.uk)

Brilliant stuff

[choclit runway]

Hey Nimmer,

Funny Stuff!

Reminds me of a mechanic friend from years back who was a member of GUSSET (general union for small self-employed traders)!!! They were fractionally better than Prospect!

eyeinthesky,

Regarding representation if you leave the union; can't speak for local representation but GATCO a good option if you want legal cover. Money better spent IMHO!

CR.

[Me Me Me Me]

Your faith is touching - if only it were that simple.

3 of the last 4 OJTI payments I have had have been incorrect.

I am still waiting for a breakdown of the most recent quarterly payment which was paid in April.

Doesn't exactly fill me with confidence or hope that some manager won't be trying to pull a fast one.

Anyone else have problems or is it just the second class citizens ?

OJTI errors are usually down to issues with recording them locally. Quite different. Future OJTI are going to be reported differently too, to make it easier to reconcile.

On another note - The annual accounts will be out this Thurs afternoon or Friday morning at the latest.

[Frank Disclosure]

11K-AVML

It would be good it ATCOs and CTC could work in partnership for a change.
ATCO's seeing CTCer's point of view, CTCer's seeing ATCO's point of view rather than being played off against one another by senior management.mr.777

As much as I agree with you 11K, it'll never happen while we are in different Unions...now if we all joined ASLEF/RMT.....How does this wish for ATCOs & CTC to work together square with your posting on another thread

mr.777

I will however go out of my way, particularly in summer, to make myself look as scruffy as is humanly possible when I go to CTC because I know it pisses them all off... "Look at the scruffy ATCO, what a disgrace"...yeah, get ****ed office monkey.I 'm sure if you or one of your ATCO friends that have been posting photos of Office Monkeys (http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/377804-prospect-decide-pull-away-nats-working-together-3.html#post5015843) could explain everyone who isn't an ATCO would be most interested.

Until then we might think you are a little juvenile (to say the least)

[kats-I]

Frank Disclosure

.
Someone passed comments.you returned fire..they returned...yeah, yeah yeah:bored::bored:

Its all getting a little tedious now..I'm sure you are big enough and ugly enough to let it go..PLEEAASSE...for Gods sake grow up..life moves on.!!!

Rant over.

And please no return fire.:)

[Minesapint]

ATCO's and CTC'ers working together!

A great idea and about time. So ok there are a lot of people who work at CTC that could work anywhere. Accountants, solicitors (no, not that type), Human Factors, Facilities management... the list is long. In any organisation these people have a role to play, its just seems that there are a lot of them and they, for the most part, do not understand ATC at all.

Then there are the people that do. I know of a number of ATCO's and ATSA/T&S grades that have a great deal of ATC experience and systems development does not always require copntroller input, in my opinion if its a tool a controller will use then they must be the final hurdle for acceptance (AMAN - throat cleared). Maybe there is some of the old ATSA's have no purpose/lower life form (always makes me laugh that) where ATCO's don't think that any other grade could possibly understand what you do? Bllks!!!

This may be a shock but here goes - I strongly believe the following:

1. Some NATS ATCO's are SIGNIFICANTLY UNDERPAID. I can only give my opinion on Swanwick (TC & AC), Heathrow and Gatwick. The caveat being that they actually spend their working time controlling air traffic, not sitting in an office. (Copenhagen ATCO, 2 sectors = £100k).
2. NATS managers are, for the most part SIGNIFICANTLY OVERPAID. Mainly because many are ex/nonop ATCO's, or that their salaries are (conveniently) based on what ATCO's earn.
3. The fact that the railway children are paid more than paperboys amazes me.
5. I hope and pray that the next CE (Roll on next April) will sack the lot of them so we can be rid of their playground bully management style!

Rant over

[eastern wiseguy]

I hope and pray that the next CE (Roll on next April) will sack the lot of them so we can be rid of their playground bully management style!


Not a bloody chance....the workforce has shown itself to be a "whipped cur"....It will be a case of different day same sh!t

[Me Me Me Me]

Rumour has it Barron wanted to renew his contract... but the board declined as they felt they wanted someone tougher.

I would expect the pace of the pillaging of T's C's to increase rapidly when the new man/woman comes in. And sadly, we threw away our chance to make a show of strength when it mattered. When the TU Execs start squealing about the way the new boys are treating them, I'm afraid I'll have little sympathy. "Working Together" has merely resulted in a quiet and orderly handing-over of strength and influence in a neat little package.

P.S. Financial results out this afternoon :ugh:

[anotherthing]

Yesterday (Wednesday) had newspaper headlines claiming that companies cannot afford final salary pensions and that they will be frozen for the majority of current members.

How long before NATS comes back to us and states it cannot afford the pension for current members?

Not long methinks (in relative terms)... never mind, our powder is very dry.

[White Hart]

oh dear, I hope you are being sarcastic??

yes, the powder is very dry, its very dry,... so very very ,,.erm ....dddry ..yy...er, ddr,.....yy,...y, . zzzzz, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :rolleyes:

[11K-AVML]

how long before NATS comes back to us and states it cannot afford the pension for current members?Take a screenshot and print out of the current NATSNet News item on the Annual reports. There's a comment about pensions on there with a replied from Philip James that suggests this isn't the case (at least today).

[Hootin an a roarin]

Some NATS ATCO's are SIGNIFICANTLY UNDERPAID. I can only give my opinion on Swanwick (TC & AC), Heathrow and Gatwick. The caveat being that they actually spend their working time controlling air traffic, not sitting in an office. (Copenhagen ATCO, 2 sectors = £100k).

I've no problem with that as long as my band 2 colleagues and I are paid in the £80k's

Also with your huge pay you will be wanting a huge pension at the detriment of others down the ladder. Wasn't this one of the causes of the recent pension problems? Underpaid? Some people are never satisfied. Why don't we make you band 10 and all have a company Aston as well? :ugh:

[Frank Disclosure]

kats-I (http://www.pprune.org/members/295852-kats-i)

Someone passed comments.you returned fire..they returned...yeah, yeah yeah

Its all getting a little tedious now..I'm sure you are big enough and ugly enough to let it go..PLEEAASSE...for Gods sake grow up..life moves on.!!!

Rant over.

And please no return fire.Yeah I guess having your collective intelligence mocked can be a little tedious.


I saw 9 (male) ATCOs wearing Flip Flops the other day, at least 2 of them were in their 40s.

[chiglet]

I saw 9 (male) ATCOs wearing Flip Flops the other day, at least 2 of them were in their 40s.

I have to ask....At your age, just what are you doing in an "Operational Area"? :uhoh:

[Vote NO]

Frank Disclosure


Yeah I guess having your collective intelligence mocked can be a little tedious.


I saw 9 (male) ATCOs wearing Flip Flops the other day, at least 2 of them were in their 40s.




You still here Frankie boy ? :} Are you some sort of ATCO spotter :eek:

Stick to aeroplane spotting and keep dreaming of wearing that headset :E


Now, where are all those monkeys that voted yes?
Your'e fired! http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:RYP901AAhRlsSM:http://newsjunction.co.uk/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/sir_alan_sugar.jpg

http://www.bayjenweb.com/r/docs/2187/monkey_office_man.jpg

[GAPSTER]

9 of them! ......and at least 2 in their 40s!!

What on earth.....which watch was on??

[landedoutagain]

What on earth.....which watch was on??

I think Frank was in his beach hut, he didnt say he saw them at work...! :}

[ImnotanERIC]

9 males in flip flops and 2 were in their 40's. it's a disgrace. I'm contacting gok wang immediately.

[Ceannairceach]

Can someone explain to me the relevance of this ludicrous clothing thing in this thread?

Who cares what ATCOs wear? Clearly we don't, so why should anyone else?

[kats-I]

Frank disclosure

Are you with the "Fashion Police"?
And if it really bothers you what operational people wear..tell them!! (don't know what the response will be, but can imagine):eek:
Your age is obviously a jest..but either way you are a sad (or lucky) individual if thats the only thing you have that concerns you.:p

[White Hart]

Dont worry Frank, there will probably be another move to get everybody into uniform when the Company is restructured, with NSL disappearing up its own ar*e, and NERL rebranded as NATS EnRoute Division, or NERD for short :p (the posters and brand logo should look great - how about some suggestions??)

It'll be flip flops with diamantes for all staff (to reflect the new profitable status of the Company, no doubt), but the ATCOs will obviously demand gold braid on their shorts :rolleyes:, the cost of which will be deducted from their reduced salaries.

In the meantime, Frank, keep winding them up - it makes for a giggle if nothing else!

and the rest of you more serious types should all be thinking of what you can be doing with all that 'dry powder' you've got stored away..... no, seriously.

[Standard Noise]

Is there any spare dry powder? I'm doing a patio and the price of cement is scandalous on a Band 2 wage.

[eastern wiseguy]

I'm doing a patio


Doing a Brooky with the other union reps?

[fly bhoy]

White Hart

there will probably be another move to get everybody into uniform

Don't even joke about that as it's apparently already been mentioned at LL at management level as potentially a road to go down!! I know what my response will be, unless they're going to supply said uniforms at their expense!!!

When will people realise that it makes absolutely no difference what clothes you wear as to how good/bad you are at your job?!?:ugh:

FB:ok:

[kats-I]

Amber watch at Swanwick might get a discount for a job lot from EasyJet..PB will be pleased to save some money eh?:rolleyes:

[ImnotanERIC]

there will never be a uniform code. unless of course it was flip flops and "long?" shorts. that would be cool, even for those in their 40's.

[RPIplus1]

It's nice to be joking around about sandals whilst information is released about the company's annual report and accounts.
http://natsnet/newsattachments/2009AnnualResults/NATS_AR&A09.pdf

Anyone else fancy a 12.5% pay rise?

[Radarspod]

Now, where are all those monkeys that voted yes?

Your'e fired!

That would be over half (a majority:ok:) of ATCOs that voted then......:}

Think of the AAVAs!!!

[mr.777]

That would be over half (a majority) of ATCOs that voted then......

Not forgetting nearly 80% of CTC and everybody else....or were you planning to omit that minor detail??

[Radarspod]

My post was purely about ATCOs, not the NATS union membership as a whole. I never said the rest of us 'CTC monkeys' were any brighter (I did vote NO myself).:ok:

It's not like anyone else on this thread chooses what stats to ignore in their posts......

RS

[mr.777]

Fair point. Neither am I blaming the whole fiasco on everybody else apart from ATCOs...we, as a whole, have capitulated on this issue....although i am still not convinced that Prospect is our future, at least not with the people running it at the top level that we currently have.

I see they have called for NATS to re-invest the profits made... stable doors and horses suddenly come to mind.:ugh:

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

Ahh yes.

The Irish on strike
The French on strike
The Spanish earning 800k

The British accept carp pension reform
The British accept a carp pay deal
The British will sit back and let NSL be sold off and the staff screwed

:D

[ImnotanERIC]

gotta love being british.

[Ceannairceach]

As much as I'd love to blame Prospect, we're the mugs who voted.....

[10W]

And now I get paid in carp too it seems :)

[Ceannairceach]

I always said there was something fishy about that pay deal.

[LEGAL TENDER]

I suspect there will be at least a new post once a month in this thread...

[fisbangwollop]

Never mind a pay rise what about my 30 days a year they have just knicked......:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[DC10RealMan]

30 days a year, Whats all that about?

[radarman]

Shortly before Christmas LXGB told Prospect/NATS to stuff their pay offer. Our Prospect rep has just come back from a union jamboree and reports that two months down the line no progress has been made whatsoever. Apparently the COO wanted to force a mere RPI increase on us (that's Gib RPI 2.8%). There are dark mutterings down here, with veiled threats of withdrawing from internal productivity deals which see Bird Control / Medical staff undertaking ATSA duties for what has been described as a 'paltry' extra sum.

[250 kts]

radarman,

Can you give us all the details of the deal that was turned down? I can only think that in the current climate it was close to a zero offer?

Was it a unit wide deal or just for the ATCOs? If not how did the other groups vote on it?

I should think most of us would jump at a 2.8% offer right now.

[250 kts]

radarman,

Surely the offer wasn't so good you can't share it with us?:eek:

[LEGAL TENDER]

A nice 3.7% RPI announced for Feb 2010, against our 0% 2010 deal.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_economy/Rp04.pdf

I wonder if they'll use August 2010 for our 2011 deal? It'll be at least 4% by then.

[blueskythinking]

See the union have driven another hard bargain! managed to negotiate a 15% reduction in real terms for our extra attendances during Ifacts training compared to the figure paid for similar days when we moved to swanwick! This working together lark really is paying dividends, well for the management team it is.

[BDiONU]

See the union have driven another hard bargain! managed to negotiate a 15% reduction in real terms for our extra attendances during Ifacts training compared to the figure paid for similar days when we moved to swanwick!
Same deal as PC got for EFD, £850 for a day doesn't seem bad to me.

BD

[blueskythinking]

I am sure the previous two posters think it is a good deal. Can't really be bothered to get into an argument about it as you were probably happy to wave goodbye to your pension rights too. Any deal that gets you less money for the same thing as we did ten years ago can't be seen as driving a hard bargain. Simple enough for you?

[5milesbaby]

Can someone please summarise what was said at the briefings please as 3 of the 4 were days off & today just isn't a good day.

Another poor performance from the union and that was just in disorganising 4 briefings.... :ugh:

Ps Heard about the AAVA + TOIL offer = £880 (so I thought £550 + £330?) & have read the e-mail last week but know nothing more :}

[Lookatthesky]

Let me get this correct.

You will be asked to work on a day off, for which you will be paid £550 on top of your normal salary and then, because you have had to work on a day off, that day will be returned to you in the form of TOIL - net result to you is no lost days and £550 for every day you 'learn' iFACTS.

And some are moaning this is disgraceful, not a hard bargain etc!!

Sometimes, the greed of this profession beggars belief :mad::ugh:

[Don't Tell Him Pike]

5 Miles
You could always go in to work on a day off for a briefing, as you expect your Union Reps to do. How many briefing are they expected to give? How much of their spare time are they expected to give up? And you can't be bothered to give up an hour or two of your own time.
Just plain lazy!

[1985]

You could always go in to work on a day off for a briefing, as you expect your Union Reps to do. How many briefing are they expected to give? How much of their spare time are they expected to give up? And you can't be bothered to give up an hour or two of your own time.
Just plain lazy!


I didn't go either. First one on a day off, then two more on leave and then yesterdays one finished before i went to work. Oh and i didn't get told about them until i went to work. Four briefings in four days aren't enough to get everyone.

[Bucking Bronco]

FFS you guys need to start getting more aggressive in your negotiations. "Working together" was a managment con in our company - it's the same in yours, wake up and realise that it's only going to lead to poorer Ts and Cs. What have ATCOs got out of the relationship? Getting screwed over in your last pay deal whilst that TCPB took a nice pay rise, Mrs PB earning £130k for work for one of the board and mgmt taking a decent payrise after you'd agreed to your shafting.

This plus the blatant lies told which lead to your capitulation over pensions, even now they're looking at new ways of disadvantaging anyone that takes part time.

Just look across at the going rates over in the EU and see how far you've been left behind.

:ugh:

[roger]

I don't expect my union reps to do it on their days off. Being a rep is voluntary, just like the meetings. Nothing lazy about it.

btw...I didn't go to any meetings, they all coincided with my tea breaks.

[Bucking Bronco]

Are your Reps not credited for Union duties by NATS?

Don't Tell him Pike - spot on. Unbelievable that people can't be bothered to go to meetings/briefings, it's this apathy that plays directly into the hands of management. A compliant apathetic workforce that can't be bothered to be educated on issues that effect their Ts and Cs - a manager's wet dream. With attitudes like that you reap what you sow.

[250 kts]

Just look across at the going rates over in the EU and see how far you've been left behind.

Some examples please?

[roger]

Are your Reps not credited for Union duties by NATS?
Yes they are, an hour worked on a day off gets a day in lieu.

Don't Tell him Pike - spot on. Unbelievable that people can't be bothered to go to meetings/briefings, it's this apathy that plays directly into the hands of management. A compliant apathetic workforce that can't be bothered to be educated on issues that effect their Ts and Cs - a manager's wet dream. With attitudes like that you reap what you sow.

What a load of tosh. Solidarity Reg.

We don't get a say, just told what has been decided. (ref over time rates/conditions) I choose not to work overtime because I enjoy being at home. There are plenty of people that will come in on days off though which is why the rate hasn't changed from that of 2000/02 while training for Swanwick.

[roger]

even now they're looking at new ways of disadvantaging anyone that takes part time.

They need to shake this up to make it fairer to the full time people working full shifts. Shift pay could be apportioned better, for example. That's not to say all part time workers make up they're own shifts trying to out do each other with earlier and earlier finish times, but it does go on and needs to be taken into hand.

[Smoggie]

Ref: even now they're looking at new ways of disadvantaging anyone that takes part time.

I believe this refers to the changes the company wish to bring in to the pension scheme, even though we were told that after closing the scheme to new entrants we wouldn't be asked to make any more changes. :hmm:

As I understand it, apologies in advance I don't have any exact figures to hand:

ATCO A works full time, after returning from maternity leave they go part time (for arguments sake 50%) for 5 years for child care reasons, then return full time.

Under current terms ATCO A can at a later date buy back those 2.5 years to make up their pension at the same rate (defined benefit) as their colleagues who continued to work full time. The company want to change this so that ATCO A would buy back years in to a defined contribution scheme similar to the pension scheme for new entrants instead.

This would affect anybody who reduced their working hours for any amount of time due childcare, illness, looking after eldery relative, etc.

[5milesbaby]

Don't Tell Him Pike, you are an :mad:
5 Miles
You could always go in to work on a day off for a briefing, as you expect your Union Reps to do. How many briefing are they expected to give? How much of their spare time are they expected to give up? And you can't be bothered to give up an hour or two of your own time.
Just plain lazy!
3 of the 4 were days off ie the briefings notice was posted while I was NOT in work so I didn't see there were any briefings until I came into work on the day that the last briefing was taking place. On that day I was in the simulators examining, the final exercise completely clashed with the briefing so there was no chance of being released to go to it. We couldn't move the last exercise due to the emergency DD&C as the simulators had to be handed to the system engineers to start reconfiguring it. What's the point of jumping down someone's throat, could you not just post what you know about the briefings? Would have saved you being thrown a shovel load back.:ouch:

I'm still not much wiser even since talking to my colleagues, they were in the same boat, only knew about the briefings on the final day & not many could be released from the ops room. The union really do need to be shaken up as the standard of their work is getting embarrassing.

[Me Me Me Me]

5miles
The union really do need to be shaken up as the standard of their work is getting embarrassing.

Well get your application in to be a rep. If you don't then you have no place complaining.

blueskythinking
I am sure the previous two posters think it is a good deal. Can't really be bothered to get into an argument about it as you were probably happy to wave goodbye to your pension rights too. Any deal that gets you less money for the same thing as we did ten years ago can't be seen as driving a hard bargain. Simple enough for you?

It was people like you who caused the worst recession in living memory. Greed. Sheer unadulterated greed. Simple enough for you?

[5milesbaby]

Me Me Me Me - bored of hearing people say "get involved". I haven't got time, I do many of those other unpaid jobs that are needed instead. I pay my monthly subscriptions to Prospect therefore I expect to be properly represented. Its a shame there isn't a decent alternative as I'd soon move.

[250 kts]

I'm still not much wiser even since talking to my colleagues

And are you wiser since you spoke to your watch rep?-or couldn't you be a*sed to find one to get a personal briefing?

You could even request a copy of the agreement if you want one from your rep-even I understood it so it can't be too complicated.

[blueskythinking]

me me me me - i can only apologise for causing the worst recession in living memory!! There was me thinking it was predominantly caused by sub prime borrowing in the US and over leveraged buyouts of dotcom companies! I will immediately seek out my union rep ( will be fairly easy as he will be in our management suite ) and offer to increase my subscriptions. Alternatively I could continue to view things from a more realistic viewpoint and see that once again our union ( and yes it is my union too as I suspect I have spent at least as long as you funding it as well as five years as a rep ) have been conned by a slippery management team. Am I the only one who has noticed our reps answering every question with a sentence beginning with ' so ' . Now who else does that??

[eyeinthesky]

The attitude of some amazes me:

On the third day of the unprecedented complete shutdown of air transport in the UK at least one individual refused to cancel his rostered AAVA and sat in the AC Ops Room with blank radar screens. I bet he'll be the first to complain if his 'rights' are infringed in any negotiations. :yuk:

Wasn't you was it, 5 miles?

[looneykeycode]

Guess what, they want to interface EFD to AMAN.

How do ya think thats going tp work out in TC?:bored:

[250 kts]

Guess what, they want to interface EFD to AMAN.

And that has what to do with Pay negotiations?:ugh:

at least one individual refused to cancel his rostered AAVA

I guess he'll have been put in the ORO's "little black book" then for not to use in the future unless absolutely necessary. Quite unbelievable attitude.:confused:

[Me Me Me Me]

blueskythinking
me me me me - i can only apologise for causing the worst recession in living memory!! There was me thinking it was predominantly caused by sub prime borrowing in the US and over leveraged buyouts of dotcom companies! I will immediately seek out my union rep ( will be fairly easy as he will be in our management suite ) and offer to increase my subscriptions. Alternatively I could continue to view things from a more realistic viewpoint and see that once again our union ( and yes it is my union too as I suspect I have spent at least as long as you funding it as well as five years as a rep ) have been conned by a slippery management team. Am I the only one who has noticed our reps answering every question with a sentence beginning with ' so ' . Now who else does that??

I said people like you, not you. The recession would appear to have been caused by sub-prime lending and over-inflated share pricing etc. The common theme is greed. Investors, bankers, executives etc all wanting something for nothing and contributing to an ever-expanding bubble in order to line their own pockets, with no regard to the long term effects when that bubble finally burst.

You find yourself being offered a tidy chunk of change, on top of a good salary, to turn up for training on a day off that you will also be given back to take later... All this at a time of global financial turmoil and significant cost-cutting. No really something to be complaining about is it.

For what it's worth, I've also had my issues with how our reps at a central level have handled things. I believe they were out-played on the pension debate and also rather gullible on the last pay deal. I am a rep though, so I also sympathise with what a difficult job it can be at times.

[The Many Tentacles]

On the third day of the unprecedented complete shutdown of air transport in the UK at least one individual refused to cancel his rostered AAVA and sat in the AC Ops Room with blank radar screens. I bet he'll be the first to complain if his 'rights' are infringed in any negotiations.

I was asked last night if I would volunteer to not work my 1/2 AAVA this afternoon and was told that I was the third to be asked and one had cancelled and one had refused to cancel theirs.

I know there's not much give from management usually, but there's got to be a bit of give and take in circumstances like these

[eyeinthesky]

You don't actually say what your response was...

Based upon the time of your post I suspect it was the honourable thing. If not, you were being paid extra money by NATS to contribute to PPRuNE!!;)

[The Many Tentacles]

No, my conscience wouldn't allow it. I thought about it and then had an afternoon of sitting in my garden instead.:)