HyperMerged: Q Engineering LAME EBA VIII/Industrial Strategies

[Redstone]

Well the company has finally put an offer in print, wrapt up in a nice powerpoint presentation dripping with the usual spin doctoring. All of a sudden it is now imperitive that it is accepted asap! As expected it is full of the usual tricks and ruses: big sticks, wedges, and red herrings.

But as with all things, the devil is in the detail. A thorough perusal of the full document will be needed, because I am told there are a few nasties in there!

Anyone else had the hard sell yet? What did you think?

[Millet Fanger]

For a year the company has dragged the chain on a new EBA, now all of a sudden they want an agreement in 2 weeks because of A380 and A330 decision deadlines.

So what are they offering? 3% p.a. which is below CPI; a 3 year agreement right at the start of a looming a/c engineer shortage; salary sacrificed super which will save Qantas money as soon as it is introduced but they decide to use it as a stick because it is worth more to engineering staff; and the only thing of any value - an adjustment to quota levels which will be a benefit to approx. 10% of staff during the life of this eba.

Doesn't provide enough benefits on my calculations, what will the alaea come up with?

[Redstone]

Very well summed up. They must think we are stupid and don't talk regularly with the assn executive. When asked why it's taken so long management blamed the union! I know for a fact that is cr@p.

The boys should tell them to stick in their pipe and smoke it.

[Talkwrench]

For the information of LAME's at other ports and departments, a 3% per annum deal for the flexibilities that Qantas wants will not be accepted by the LAME's at BNE H3 Heavy Maint. Whats the feeling at other locations?

[Ultralights]

same old, same old, same pay rise rate, same crap and same result. nothing will ever change, you will all accept it, whine and carry on, but you will vote it in. been going on for decades.

just a side note, the base increase in the aviation industry outside of the sheltered shops of Qf is 4.5% Pa... just sayin..

[chemical alli]

by all accounts it should be an interesting exec meeting come monday.,once again threatened with the stick of if you dont accept it straight out you will lose the sweatner. Problem is the sweatner only applies to super scheme 1 ,2 & 3 so what about four five and six that already have the option.

also why are we going to pay seniors more when its the workers who do the work ?

i like the tank money might even become a full time tank rat

[Redstone]

What about the fat cats who don't fit in a tank any more?

[binrow]

for those that hav no seen the propergander on the intranet From memory

3x3% with backpay
5% one off payment for snrII payment
5% one off payment for pct traineers
increse in quota positions (unsure of degree of change}
increse in fuel tank allowence to $5 per hr
allow salary sacrifice your compusory super contributions
heavey maint efficiences NO DETAILS SUPPLIED (read rdo/dil/ot banks)
I think that covers them, all in all not a bad package when when you have one eye on your bouns at the end of the year!!!!

:{:{:{:{:{:{where is the pineapple

[employes perspective]

the pineapple is the 3 x 3,that should hurt a bit,looks like there using no lub:}

[Short_Circuit]

EBA VIII

I think it should be, as a starting point;

10% now
Salary sacrifice Super contributions
Salary sacrifice Home Loans
P/C travel for old farts
J/C confirmed ALL LAMES
Penalty rates on Long Service Leave
No quota system
No hidden clauses that they always try to sneak in

[Annulus Filler]

Qantas say they want an answer in 2 weeks.
:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:
Fine, we will use a Qantas 2 weeks to make the decision.
Happy Easter

[Bumpfoh]

The presentation given to us was full of half truths and glaring omissions.

The local manager was clearly rattled during his presentation due to repeated points of clarification by an EBA committee member WRT the above situation.

As previously stated the qouta adjustments affect a very small % of all LAME's covered by the award, likely to assist a few capped out avionics guys at best.

It was clearly pointed out that the vast majority of LAME's who have not benefited by being cross trained with an MA couldn't give a rats toss-bag about A380 work as they stand very little chance of being trained on the creature under EASA licensing rules, training management have clearly stated that only current MA or multi category LAME's will be EASA type trained.

Fantastic future prospects for the minority and F#%* all for the rest. :mad::mad:

As for the rest of the offer, :yuk::yuk::yuk:

I can assure you "MH" and co. nobody cares any more because of your pitiful treatment of the troops!:=

[NAS1801]

Dear LAME's of QF, please tell them to stick it up their ar$e! yours faithfully, AME pleb.

[Millet Fanger]

Apparently QF short haul pilots have just signed off on their EBA, does anybody know what they have agreed to?

[Hardworker]

Well I cant think of anyone in Sydney happy with the roadshow, whats offered is a joke, its about time an 8 hour roster was introduced to all areas of Sydney, Base, SIT and SDT coupled with a unoffical overtime ban. These morons are beyond repproach, intorduce a so called "New World" that is under resourced from the start, doesnt work but do they come forward and say, Hey guys we made a big mistake, let go back to our previous Status Quo. Instead they introduce the CRAP Team Crtical Response To Aircraft Planning, to bandaid lack of resources all on 12 hours overtime!
Time to tell them we will review and reject the EBA, as for the sweetner, who cares, big stick or not, I think its time the tables were reversed and the Union put up some Balls, instead of crumbling with the A380!

[domo]

I can assure you "MH" and co. nobody cares any more because of you pitiful treatment of the troops!


very true
stick the a380 where the sun dont shine I dont care about 25 muppets future, and working in Q i no longer care about anything, management has overplayed its hand, its will be hard to build the place up after running it down so much.despatch relibility is managements fault I was working 2 days off overtime every block and aircraft were still not making sched, I dont work overtime anymore employ some people and spend some money.

[Short_Circuit]

Good on ya all.

Stick the EBA where it belongs.

Back to 8hr shifts.

Let the “construction & mining company” maintain QF “Premium Aircraft” (A380). what a :mad: joke, really.

I’ll bet there will be but kicking all the way up to the Boardroom!

QF is walking all over you again & again & again and the young AME’s behind you.

[Talkwrench]

Thanks for the feedback, Hardworker. Does anyone from ports other than SYD and BNE have any info on the feeling in their area about this EBA?

[sfde]

Geoff Dixon 27% Engineers 3% sounds fair to me.

[blackhander]

We should have started introducing bans 6 months ago.
Talk to your reps and get things rolling.
3% is an insult to all

[satos]

What pees me off is that any other industry outside aviation can get pay rises
of 5% or more and yet we in aviation get stuck with the standard 3%.
We are working and signing off on aircraft carrying up to 400 pax or more where safety is paramount and yet management seems to view our job as someone packing shelves at coles/safeway or similar.

[chemical alli]

this exec won on the lets tear em an asshole attitude.

well lets do it ,bring on the o/t ban and higher duty ban immediately ,work to rule 300 defect and recording cpns at every A chk.8hr roster when all else fails.if M wants a stoush give it to him if big K thinks dispatch reliability is in the gutter now wait until xmas ,maint manual printout every job and only correct tooling used ,total safety concepts .


fog
fom
fok
fod
foh
fot
ithink that covers all welcome to add any ive missed

[acslame]

Well the eba offer is a joke but really did anyone expect otherwise?
M and his buddies are in the poo and now is the time to give it
to them. an official OT ban now ,followed by a higher duties ban
would put a lot of pressure on M. Aircraft reliability is from what
i understand at an all time low and no ot would really sit them on there
ass.
the next move would be to go back to an 8hr roster from our extended
ones and watch the carnage unfold. Just ask anyone from perth.
We have to stop making things work for them and there has never
been a better time than now.
Who cares about the 380 . all qf management are doing is using it as
a carrot. let someone else do it.
I say its time to fight there arseholes.
There new world bull**** hasn't worked, people have lost their jobs,
the aircraft are in a pretty bad shape and all they can do is blame
the union and there own workforce and really they haven't saved a cent!!
I don't know about you guys but I think its time to stand up for ourselves
before the imbiciles running the show do us all out of a job

[northsteyne]

Qantas Engineering Managment have obvisously been given a directive from above to deal with these over paid LAME'S and settle.
We have not been better placed for years and i think our union excecutive are playing there hands extremely well.Don't sell out

[NAS1801]

Hi all. I believe now, it is more important than ever, for ALL employees to STICK TOGETHER!!!

ACS, Heavy, Components, Pilots, cabin crew, catering, GSE.... wherever you work, we all hold one thing in common. Management are taking us and the airline for the biggest ride in its 87 year history.

Let's put aside any animosity between departments. Contact your union organisers, It's time to run a COMMON and legal (thanks Johnny), campaign to fight for the sake of Qantas.

Yes, our jobs and our wages are nowadays at stake. Equally as important, so too is the once highly held reputation that Qantas once enjoyed

Management can buy as many planes as they like however, if they are not maintained to the once great Qantas standard, if they are not flown by the once highly skilled pilots Qantas once had and the passengers are not catered for by the once motivated and content cabin crews Qantas once had, the planes will be unreliable and dangerous to fly in. The pilots will be substandard and the crew just won't care. Passengers will look elsewhere.

Scum like Geoff Dixon and David Cox are holding us AND the good name of Qantas to ransom to feed their own greed.

Enough is enough. Time to take action to protect Qantas, your job and ultimately, the safety of the flying public.

[The masked goatrider]

Fill your fuel tanks boys. The 8 hour is coming. Have heard that the Exec will be requesting 8 hour rosters for all on 27th November.

BTW my manager was out selling the EBA yesterday and I sat there listening wondering what the hell we will be giving up to get this 3% windfall. I thought it sounded too good to be true and I was right. It may surprise many of you but they actually want something that they weren't telling us about. The missing pages from the presentation read -

Some minor ammendments to the way disputes are handled. If the Asn wants to represent you in the AIRC the Commissioner must take into account the XPT case which gives management the right to make any decision that benifits the company. This is the no-man transit clause gents.

Some minor changes to the definition of employee. LAMEs will now be able to be employed as AMEs and paid as such until they sit a company LAME induction course. Thats why we haven't advertised for LAMEs in over 2 years even though we are so short that delays are at an all time high.

Unlimited part timers and casuals. Thats right unlimited. But remember guys this is a lifestyle choice that suits many families. We will make that choice for you. Don't bother moonlighting to feed your families either, we have banned that as well.

So vote yes. You are only overpaid LAMEs anyway. If you do management will give you long term job security until we can get some 457 visa holders from China to take your job.

[Redstone]

There are a number of LAME's trotting around the joint saying "this deal is not too bad!"
They know squat.
There are managers who when asked about the dispute resolution and definition of an employee clauses are answering "oh that's nothing" or "that wont apply to you"
Who do you trust? Trust only your gut. Read boys and girls, read the document when it is released from the Bexly bunker and for gods sake read it from a management perspective!
If these provisions "mean nothing" or are irrelevant, then the priques can cut them.

[Short_Circuit]

Anything in the document WILL apply to EVERYONE.

QF do not put items in, for the benefit of the workers!

Just the same old illusions to screw you bit by bit.

BIG bit this time. :=

[satos]

The masked goatrider

Some minor changes to the definition of employee. LAMEs will now be able to be employed as AMEs and paid as such until they sit a company LAME induction course. Thats why we haven't advertised for LAMEs in over 2 years even though we are so short that delays are at an all time high.
LAMEs spend years of training getting their license and now they want to disrespect us like that.
I smell a big red rat.
The 457 visa thing is not far off also.
Many companies are already doing this citing a skills shortage.
What a load of crock.It is not a skilled shortage,it is the conditions they want you to work under.The government is turning a blind eye to this.
VOTE NO.

[The masked goatrider]

Part of the M training package.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So_Fv4a9EPo&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLpngux-Pzo&feature=related

[Short_Circuit]

Does this sound like QF management?

Sure does to me.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6DmV7DMIBbE&feature=related

[Millet Fanger]

It explains why all the junior managers are pushing this deal as "a good package". Goes someway to explaining why most of the plastic trinkets in the package are aimed at supervisors and senior lames - "The backbone of the plan to bust the unions".

[chemical alli]

well its tuesday and what has come from bexley so far ? waiting with baited breath

[Short_Circuit]

There is now a notice from the Bexley bunker, re the misrepresented QF version of the EBA. :yuk:

[MENDAERO]

well its tuesday and what has come from bexley so far ? waiting with baited breath

I received the Notice from the ALAEA at 4pm

Have you got on the ALAEA mailing list chemical alli?

[NAS1801]

Mendaero, just have a quick flick through the forums and you will understand why Chemical Alli made the inference that we "haven't heard" from the association.

[The Mr Fixit]

mmmmmmm

So you say we don't get day by day blow by blow accounts of what happens at the asn, yet notices come out every week :mad:

I say all you winging t#@ds should walk a mile in their shoes, after all they are volunteers against full time protagonists who get paid a couple of hundred thousand dollars to fk us over :yuk:

I simply appreciate the fact that if you ask they answer from President to councilor on any subject they have their phone numbers freely available or ring the office they will put you through to them ;)

I say keep up good work present exec it's good to have someone fighting for us again :ok:

PS Tell QF that the A380 deal is SIA (Stick in A$$) :E

PPS Hows about our former Fed Sec getting the job in France fkn unbelievable, no graft and corruption here at QF :eek:

[chemical alli]

when i said waiting with baited breath,
i am .
i wasnt haven a go.
this eba alone will determine the execs standing long and behold ,morale so far in the gutter,total cluster over the 380 selection process that the company undertook.and a thinly worded eba presentation ,presented by managers who had no answers ,who werent even involved in the eba process.
yes i am on the mailing list and havent received a notice as yet.as i said waiting with baited breath for the exec direction.

united we stand ,together we fall

[chemical alli]

notice is out exec meeting with company on 27th nov ,no longer waiting with baited breath

[The Mr Fixit]

Did it suitably take your baited breath away ?

[K9P]

The way I see it is that LAMEs got Forked over big time when Bruce D. was running the ALAEA (and I know, from inside, at that time that he controlled the exec)..........and we have never ever...........................
QF management had their hand up Bruce's fundamental orifice so far...................and we never will RECOVER!

[chemical alli]

dont think the hand was up bruce,s arse think more the exec ,bruce loathe him or love him at least had the lames at heart ,he did what he had too and when he wasnt going to tow the line anymore he was given the arsan chop.bruce held off on one man transits and a host of other things the company wanted introduced without letting on.

also if bruce had been offered a current position on the fed exec now it would have been greast to see him exact some revenge . i agree certain exec members were given pay offs in the past but the past is the past.

unless we stand together we will once again vote in a lessor offer talk is cheap ,actions are strong

[Redstone]

By the sound of the latest notice it would appear that the company has not even provided the entire document to the assn for their consideration. What is it with this mob? They fart around for over a year then come up with some half baked incomplete offer..... and they are selling it like it is the best thing since sliced bread telling us it is important that we get it bedded down asap! I smell a rat.

[Annulus Filler]

Does anyone know who has been offered the training as yet?

[chemical alli]

could tell ya but then i would have to kill u

[Redstone]

Does anyone know who has been offered the training as yet?

Yes. Emails went out today.

[Annulus Filler]

Will this classify the selected ones as S$%BS if they continue with the training before the unions blessing?

[employes perspective]

is this the only way to get a pay rise,get more training coupled with a pissy 3%,what a joke(another reward for the suck holes) while ever one else can suffer:ugh:

[chemical alli]

employee perspctive , you sound as if you are bitter and twisted ,now singing a different tune since the emails have gone out ,guess it was a no ,dont worry theirs always the fun process in three years for the 787.

[Redstone]

Let 'em go for it Annulus, anyone who signs up on the open ended agreement with no detail know exactly what they are getting into, as long as they don't come whinging to the assn later. I would be wary if I was a Snr or Supervisor though, do they retain this position down the track?

[Short_Circuit]

I know it does not answer the question (Snr LAME & Supervisors positions down the track)

but look at the EBA “Redeploy LAME’s as AME’s. That gotta tell you something.:yuk:

[Annulus Filler]

New notice from ALAEA just came through. 14:45 23/11/07 local.
GAME ON.

[wingers]

Well new leadership.....look foward to the outcome of next Tuesday....the foot is on the other shoe......yes sir reeeee

[fordran]

Looks like the barney is on. First business day after the election and the notice has come out for industrial action. Overtime bans, higher duties bans, secondment bans, stop work meetings. This mob don't fk around. The ad was right, they're coming back, didnt take long.

Bring it on and don't stop until M is on the scrap heap. :ok:

[acslame]

Gents
its time to get rid of the imbiciles that are running the show.
We listen to the "new world speel " that they preach but things get
worse! when they say "engage the workforce " they actually mean
help me because i have made a whole lot of promises to senior management
that I don't know how to keep!
well guys, all that will happen is they will blame the union or the workforce for there inability to manage., and the loser will be us!!!!!!!!!!
It is now time to fight M and DC\
Its turned into such a cluster f**k that they are making us look bad in order to save there own skins.
Its time to let the results of there action be seen.
NO OT, NO HIGHER DUTIES AND NO SECONDMENTS.
DC has taken the pride out of QF engineering and the fleet is suffering.
It is time to take action to get rid of these fools before they get rid of us!@!!!!
Stop work meetings next I say

[chemical alli]

did we reach intelligent space or has the bridge of trust been burnt in the pity city 44 gallon drum?

guess m will enjoy his power trip love in, have heard if anyone doesnt attend there will be consequences ,just like to know what ,there isnt much more he could take away

[rudderless1]

People should show their disgust by not attending and showing continued support for this moron. After all if he has no support he has no mandate. What can he do to them then? He has put all our jobs at risk and has no integrity or ethics. He has lied and run the business into the ground.
The problem being a large proportion of those invited are that spineless and will continue to try hang on in hope their somewhat questionable rises to the top under M will continue as their credibility would be worthless under any other.
When the flush comes, I hope all those who have shown their colours and endorsement of this regime will be removed along with him.
Only then will Engineering have any chance of becoming a real MRO. :=
Long live the revolution.

"You can't solve Problems using the Same Thinking that Created Them" (Albert Einstein).

[chemical alli]

maybe along with the eba ballot for protected industrial action, we should run a ballot of confidence in engineering management.

[fordran]

Qantas faces New Year strike
By Steve Creedy, Aviation writer November 28, 2007 05:27am
Email article

QANTAS planes could be grounded by industrial action in the new year unless the airline increases a 3 per cent pay offer to its engineers.
The airline warned passengers it would make every effort to minimise disruption to its services after the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association applied to the Industrial Relations Commission to conduct a ballot of members as a prelude to industrial action.

Engineers are key to the airline's operations because they must approve aircraft to fly.

"Three per cent just isn't quite good enough when the Australian average wage has been increasing by 4.6 per cent per year on average for the last five or 10 years," ALAEA federal secretary Steve Purvinas said yesterday. "So we're looking at an industrial action ballot that will finish on December 22."

Mr Purvinas said the action would include overtime bans, bans on higher duties and stopwork meetings but he said the union was not looking at disruptions over Christmas.

"I think we've got 60 days to actually take the action, so we'll give Qantas some time to negotiate, but we'll expect them to actually come out with a bit more of a reasonable offer than what they gave us a week or so ago."

Qantas executive general manager Kevin Brown said it was extraordinary that the union had chosen to ballot members to take industrial action the day before the parties were meeting to talk about negotiations.

"We will take every measure to put in place contingencies to ensure the smooth operation of the airline and protect our customers," he said.

The new industrial threat emerged as Qantas struck a landmark deal with its flight attendants that will allow it to use a recently established subsidiary to employ long-haul cabin crew on lower rates and longer hours.

The airline says the new enterprise agreement would lead to the creation of more than 2000 full-time cabin crew jobs in Australia over three years and allow it to better compete with overseas carriers such as Emirates.

The alternative was a massive ramping up of the airline's overseas bases with an increasing proportion of flight attendants employed offshore.

Under the agreement with the Flight Attendants Association of Australia, existing flight attendants will remain employed by Qantas Airways on current rates and conditions.

But new staff would be employed by Qantas Cabin Crew Australia on lower rates similar to those paid by Jetstar International. The deal will see them working about 25 to 35 per cent more hours than existing staff. Qantas has also pledged that the current 75-25 mix of Australian and offshore crew would remain.

The union and the airline yesterday described the agreement as a win. The union said it provided for a 3 per cent annual pay rise, a $3000 "sign on" bonus for its 3000 existing flight attendants and improved superannuation arrangements that allow salary sacrifice.

FAAA international division secretary Michael Mijatov said QCCA would employ staff on Jetstar International rates and hours but they would get better conditions in terms of annual, long-service and sick leave as well as overtime provisions.

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said the agreement was positive for all concerned and opened up a range of options for current crew.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just a note for all.

The ALAEA today were successfully granted permission from the AIRC to conduct a ballot of members for protected Industrial Action. Roll of voters closes on 4th Dec. Ballot open from 10th and closes 20th Dec.

A successful vote could lead to action including -

stop work meetings
overtime bans/limitations
secondment bans
and
Higher duties bans

[terraform]

Thanks Fed Sec. All the guys I talk to around these parts (BNE) are chomping at the bit. Lifes About Murrays Exit.

[FCMC]

Attention Bexley :ok:
Perth is ready to go. After what Murray did to us for the last year we will do whatever it takes. Of course theres the 3x DMMs and a few S/L that will bend the rules to keep it all going but the rest of us are awaiting your command.

[section 41]

As usual LMC's are only out for themselves, if you have a beef with your GM get over it and get on with your job.

For the people in Heavy who by the way are no more impressed with the paltry 3% offer can I say please stick to the issues and don't use the entire membership to get even with individuals in qantas mgt.

We are fighting for our survival every day with the reality being our work could go offshore if the decision was made to do so by senior mangement. The rabid dogs in the fed exec are doing little to ensure the survival of Heavy maint in Australia, of course Mr purvinass will be fine now he has taken his golden handshake from Qantas and is busy pursuing his political career.

Judging by the posts on this site I expect my comments to elicit a reaction, but before you do think about what we are about to do, what the consequences will be and where it will end. I am not a management stooge and am happy to stand up for our rights but les make sure we know what we are fighting for and what it may cost.

[rudderless1]

It’s your vote section 41, use it how you please. No everyone sees grey clouds or is waiting for the sky to fall in. At least now the membership has a choice which won't be undermined or manipulated by a dodgy company stringed exec.

Don't just have a bitch; tell us why we can't aim higher than 3% and at least meet average wage growth of nearly 5% with record profits and huge productivity and efficiency gains.
Let me guess, your quite high up the tree and are aligned with the psycho terrorism this company uses to bash its employees to control costs rather than being smart enough to capitalise on its greatest asset.
When M, Cox and Vincent are pulled I hope the deadwood is cleaned up as well and replaced with people that actually know what LAME’s do. Look at the destruction these clowns have left behind.

:=

[fordran]

I see you are a new ppruner 41 and what a time to join the debate. It seems you have been falsely convinced that taking action will be the downfall of us all. Wasn't it inaction from our union that closed SHM and led to greater offshoring? Would this have happened if we stood up for ourselves at the time and supported our workmates from our line stations? Do we have individual gripes against managers because they are making woeful decisions that have led to more offshoring and loss of many line contracts? Is this enough reason for us to want to act to remove tham?

I think so along with the majority in Adelaide. Bring it on.

[numbskull]

Sect 41,

Call their bluff. Don't be afraid of finding new work. That fear is exactly what they're relying on to push through substandard payrises.

Stand up to the ba$tards and tell them that if they don't pay you a fair days pay then they can shove their job up their ar$e and send the work wherever they bloody well like!!

If worst comes to worst then I guarantee that you will find work to sustain you and your family with the current skills shortage(who knows-a new job may even pay more and you'll probably love the change).

Your terms and conditions have been eroded for the last 5-7 years and if you allow it to continue you will be going backwards even more. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking a hard line. I think its a good time to give QF some hard negotiating back in return for all their sob stories of the last few years!!

[NAS1801]

section 41=pointy end=management stooge

[AEROMEDIC]

Section 41 , this must be your first and only job.

You have to stand up and do what is necessary to get fair conditions. This management will try all strategies to get you to work more and take less. They then pay themselves big bonuses for getting you to do just that!!!

Wake up and look around you. :uhoh:

You're in this industry now and you'll find that you will have more than one employer in your career.

(There is life after Qantas..........:D..)

[employes perspective]

section 41 your not a Dolly are you,i can't afford to go on strike i have 6 investment houses to pay off blah blah blah,grow a back bone and be a man,be a man.
All these threats of them about off shoring Syd H.M if we don't except their terms which we did and they still shut it down,and now look at the **** their in:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[section 41]

Six replies, five insults/abuses,

You guys are predictable as ever.
Am I mgt stooge- No I will fight when I think we can win.
Have I ever worked for another organisation- in my 25 years in aviation (19 of them as a Lame) I have worked in a number of airlines and MRO's.
I am not scared or protecting my investment properties simply trying to make ends meet. I have seen the devstation of long industrial disputes first hand overseas, its not a nice thing!
Of the people who have posted how many of you are not from line maintenance angling for your grade 12 while the guys in heavy struggle along on their 5 or 6.

If you get to stick it up your bosses thats all that matters to you

[wingers]

This day is called the Feast of Crispian: He that outlives this day, and comes safe home, Will stand a-tiptoe when the day is named, And rouse him at the name of Crispian. He that shall see this day and live t'old age, Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours, And say "To-morrow is Saint Crispian": Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars And say "These wounds I had on Crispin's day." Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages What feats he did that day.

[domo]

This day is call'd the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip toe when this day is nam'd,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say, Tomorrow is Saint Crispian:
Then will he strip his sleeve and shew his scars,
And say, These wounds I had on Crispian's day.
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he 'll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day: then shall our names
Familiar in their mouths as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloster
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd:
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
nd gentlemen in England, now a bed,
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here;
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon St. Crispin's day.'


so whats your point, are we to shed blood and become a band of brothers?

[split pin]

Good to see the tide is turning. The $$$ at the big red rat have been going backwards for years, unlike the profits!!!!

Fighting for your survival, rubbish. Who has the manpower and capacity just waiting around for QF to unload their fleet on. No one. There are shortages of manpower world wide.

Give it your best shot now, as you will only have to contemplate the same in 5 years.

And yes, there is life after QF, lovin it.

SP.

[Short_Circuit]

Why don’t engineers get a bonus every time an A/C departs on time.

Sounds fair to me, GD & Co get one for just doing their job!

L ets
A ve
M urrays
E ntrails

[acslame]

section 41
don't worry fella, these clowns would send the work offshore in
a heartbeat if there was a cheaper / available option.
Its the bluff they use on us every time.
And just because you are in heavy doesn't mean you are
on your own. We get threatened daily with jetstar , john holland,
Easa b1/b2 , 380 ,losing customers , and tiger air is coming
blah blah ect and so on!!!!
Now I came to think of it it was easy back in heavy 'cause
they only used to threaten sending the work offshore.
FACT these F**KWITS running the show have ballsed things up soooo
bad that all they have left is to blame the union and the workforce.
You are no company stooge, just concerned for you job , and
rightly so.
However SP has been a major pain in the ass to muz and co.
and he has bone some really good work so far.
Now is the time to take them on and expose them for the
lying frauds they are!!!! That is how to save your job
Keep the faith

[Big M]

M FIDDLES WHILST ACS BURNS.

For those who don’t know, today and tomorrow, all members of the ACS supervisory structure have downed tools(pens) to attend M’s latest Leadership Forum, or “Love in” as they’ve become known. I’m sure everyone’s having a great time hunkered down in The Airport Hilton, surrounded by “Intelligent Space” and “ACS core values”, with every word, speech and group hugging exercise being carried out/performed with “Strategy Map II principles” as a guide. A laugh a minute I’m sure! Oh and before we get going don’t forget the safety brief on how to exit the room if anything untoward should happen. I hope a risk assessment or at a minimum, a safety observation was carried out before hand.

All the DE’s and foreman have dutifully succumbed to M’s fear campaign of “there will be ‘consequences’ for non attendance” Ha ha ha, what did you all think would happen if you pulled a sickie and didn’t front? I wonder if everyone completed the required homework before attendance at kindergarten this morning? Yep, that’s right…. homework – every student must complete their own personal “Leadership plan” and bring it along for marking. I’m sure M is under the false assumption that people who fix aircraft for a living actually like being a part of this crap. Good thing though is that once a LAME, always a LAME and the built in scepticism and distrust of anything sprouted by M will be in plentiful supply. Sure there are the “Yes” men who will outwardly go along with whatever the latest agenda/stuff up is but I think the silent majority will all be bored to tears and count the seconds until it’s all over.

The word on the street is the real agenda is an attempt to get the supervisor’s “on board” in support of the company’s paltry EBA offer. Try and get the DE’s and foreman to sing the praises of the EBA to the ‘troops’. How do you do this? Well, what was in the offer? – basically not much for the troops but a nice sweetener of an increase for all the supervisor/higher duty allowances and some movement of quota positions that only affect or are of benefit to those at the ‘top end of the tree’
At the same time keep the engine of the fear campaign running at full rev’s. i.e “consequences” for non attendance, we can’t compete with other MRO’s, our wages are “unsustainable”, more than a 3% increase would cause the sky to fall in, John Holland is on the horizon, etc,etc,etc. All the same old crappy propaganda cranked out again at EBA time.

The 3rd floor probably know the LAME’s have had enough over the years and now want some real recognition in the form of a “fair and decent” pay rise from the current EBA. They know the past methods and pathetic powerpoint sales jobs from the likes of the Fat Controller will no longer ‘cut it’. They even reached for the cupboard straight away to bring out that old faithful “If this isn’t voted in you risk having the back pay taken away”. Not even a little to and fro – BORING. They know it’s an impossible job to sell us this turd so therefore the latest efforts to get the supervisor’s “on board” in an attempt to sell it from within and avoid the upcoming industrial action –can’t wait till January! After all, as part of the ‘ACS Leadership Team’ one of your tasks is to lead the boys in a way which is in keeping with the ‘corporate’ line. One of the DE’s in syd has already been down ‘on the floor’ warning the boys about the consequences of their vote and playing up the fear campaign No doubt all those in attendance will be threatened with all manner of consequences if they don’t carry out higher duties or do overtime when the action starts. Good old divisive tactics – I for one have faith that the majority currently soaking up M’s crap will not take the bait or the fear from above and wholeheartedly be a part of any action should it become necessary/imperative. Remember guys, if it comes down to it, you will be involved in legally sanctioned action, approved by the Australian Industrial Relations Commission in an effort to improve your working conditions – no more, no less.

Of course, the membership of the Association may decide not to begin action, 50% of the membership must vote, and 50% of the return must be in favour of action for it to be lawful. To my mind there is ‘that feeling’ in the air at the moment that the vote will be for action. A bit like that feeling in the air before the recent federal election, however substitute M for Little Johnny. There are so many people disengaged from any form of management at the moment it’s laughable, and those LAME badges now have a bigger and bigger following – I’m seeing them on more and more vests. Ha ha ha.

Once all the supervisors are back, let's see which ones will be having 'informal' meetings, walk arounds and "chat's with the boys" while singing from M's songsheet. It will be interesting - a word of warning to those who try it on, the boys won't be listening and they'll see straight through you. After all, where are all the great improvements that were supposed to come from the last round of love-in's, which took the form of a 'Deliverance' style river trip?

I’m strapped in and ready to go…….. waiting by the letterbox for my ballot paper and looking forward to it. Bring it on.


P.S. For those at the “Love In” be warned about being tempted to slip down the road to the Rowers for a few cold ones. One of M’s first tasks after moving into the 3rd floor was to sack four of your co-workers for this very offence. He’s not a ‘fan’ of drinking and you may still be classed as being ‘at work’ in a legal sense. If you can’t resist the temptation , keep your eye out for Managers son’s who may just be lurking in licenced premises with a camera phone. Hey, there might even be random testing in the morning in accordance with policy. Stay under 0.02% fella’s !!

[FCMC]

Great post Big M :ok:

Im not sure if our 3 brainwashed DMM's would bother giving us
a run down afterwards as they know they will be laughed out of the room.
We never listen to them at the best of times and hopefully one of them
will be leaving for ADL very soon.
PER cant wait for the vote!
SP keep up the great work!

[Spanner Turner]

Oh dear,
Big M, if everything you posted wasn't so true, I would laugh. Unfortunately, all you said is very close to the mark. You did however forget to mention "Crossing the bridge of trust"

:ok:

[Talkwrench]

Yes Big M, well said! Everyone knows this is an uncompetitive EBA offer. Surely the company must know that when they try to recruit the front line supervisory staff to sell the deal, any hard earned respect and goodwill that a supervisor has with his staff is immediately evaporated as soon as he or she starts to spruik the substandard deal. I guess this just another tactic from QE to try and avoid the inevitable. Unfortunately it is wasted time at this stage. The supers would have been better off staying on the job and getting planes out. Luckily for us the majority of the membership are not in M’s Leadership Team. Good to hear Sydney and Perth are ready. I can tell you BNE is itchin. Anyone know how MEL is looking?

[primethius]

This post is interesting in that it vilifies Section 41 for having an opion and quotes the Bard as if the Asn is engaging in a battle.
Why hasn't any of the posters questioned the salary of the Fed Sec especially since as of the redundacies he is no longer in the employ of the Aircraft Industry.
The ALAEA is not the Aircraft industry it is merely an instrumentality of the business.
Much like the Salvos are part of the Stock market.
We all question the executive salaries of Airline Management but the Non for profit Organisation salary structure of an employee funded institution should remain unquestioned.
Not for profit means no Tax I'm sure we would all like to enjoy that privelege.

The previous to last Fed Sec D.K. was castigated for his held postiton by this one but of course passing judgement of things of the past are not in the current context.
Since we are into quoting the Bard "No man can sit in judgement over those who have ruled before him unless he too his judged by himself" As you like it.

Sa

[Talkwrench]

Re: Why hasn't any of the posters questioned the salary of the Fed Sec especially since as of the redundacies (sic) he is no longer in the employ of the Aircraft Industry? Erm…perhaps because this thread is about the EBA….

[hadagutfull]

Oh Big M.... well written. sounds like this love in is full of "amazing :mad:ing people":D

[whitenite]

re fed sec: try giving up your job and dropping approx 40k per annum and then taking on the role of saviour/big brother/wet nurse/mother for an ungrateful child. Fed sec is doing a great job under difficult circumstances.
Or would you rather he agree to a similar contract to the one the FAAA signed up to?

[cementhead]

he got the fat qantas pay out and walked into a job,maybe the child is ungrateful because it does not like the direction its going in

[NAS1801]

Typical bunch of selfish whingers. How many of you would step up to take on the role of Fed. Sec? I hazard to guess NONE OF YOU would!

[MENDAERO]

Typical bunch of selfish whingers. How many of you would step up to take on the role of Fed. Sec? I hazard to guess NONE OF YOU would!

I agree.

Primethius, SP has taken the ALAEA in a direction I think we should be proud of, thus far. Whilst I would have liked SP to remain in the employ of Qantas to keep his feet grounded, I believe the position of Fed Sec requires his full attention, we all need to remember, the ALAEA represents LAME's in many businesses.

But by all means keep the executive heads out of the clouds, if they should start to float away like the last executive did.

Back to the EBA

[Torqueman]

Honestly I didn't like him at the start. BUT he has got my support now. Stick with the current line ALAEA. You're doing a good job.

[acslame]

Have you boys seen the alaea power point presentation?
Go SP !!!!!!!!!!
Its about time that we started throwing managements own
tactics back at them.
Maintain the rage boys, lets show those bastard boys
what we have got!
I hope M's little tactic of having a warm and fuzzy
to get the Dmm's on side won't cloud their judgement
and make them forget they are ALAEA members.
I remember with pride how the actions of just 1 DMM in
PER refusing to sign the awa shoved under his nose
(despite pressure from 2 others!!!) sunk M's plans !
Imagine what can happen if we all Stick together!!!!

I say to the assn
IF PEOPLE BREAK RANKS THEN
ITS TIME TO LET THEM FEND FOR THEM SELVES .
HOCKEY ONE , A TRIP TO BEXLEY,
HOCKEY 2 , EXPULSION.
I all to well remember the old days when
people became reps to further their own careers,
because the company would "look after them"

Its time to make a stand for our jobs, our careers
and most importantly the safety of our aircraft and the traveling
public within

[Talkwrench]

Acslame, I agree 100% with your comments regarding expulsion of members that repeatedly defy any upcoming protected industrial action directives from the ALAEA. Anyone trying to duck below the radar on this one should indeed be let go. Its time to see where everyone stands.

[whatdouknow]

acslame, I take it you have a copy of the presentation, where do we see it? Is it for public consumption?

As for the travelling public, amen to that...

Are we safe... god I hope so

[ata 38 32]

Lets just remember that all lames are not members of the alaea or even union members.they enjoy the benefits but may not support any actions, I would be very carefull around them in case they report me for harassement.

[whatdouknow]

Surely there are ways to stick together without getting hit up on harrassment charges...

[ata 38 32]

Have you boys seen the alaea power point presentation?
Go SP !!!!!!!!!!


very impressive presentation won me over,all members should be emailed it also on he alaea website

[ConcernedLAME]

The ALAEA Presentation has been sent to all on ALAEA mailing list. So if you didnt get it ,fire email off to the association to get on it.
No excuses for not being informed and up to date on whats happening...
We are going to be in for a battle ...however enough is enough. Its time to take a stand and fight for what is fair and just...
Cheers

[whatdouknow]

Yep, ditto!

Must have been a few late nights and research, sure it will hit the spot. Now as long as everyone listens...

Surely the last 10 years of "we will go offshore" threats will have an effect.

Stand up and be counted.

[Clipped]

Where is this ppt? I'm on the email list, not received it and have then logged onto the site - but can't find it. Any directions to find it on the website would be appreciated.

Cheers Clipped

[Syd eng]

Also have not received it but am on mailing list.

[Long Bay Mauler]

FAIR LAME WAGE CLAIM

3% PA. NOT ENOUGH FOR MANAGEMENT
ALAEA -QANTAS EBA VIII ALAEA -QANTAS EBA VIII NOT ENOUGH FOR US


It’s time to turn the tables


•3% pa has seen our real wages fall back over many years.
After 10 years watching record profits, record management wages rises and bonuses big enough to buy Sydney waterfront mansions, it’s time that recognition is given to those who have made the airline what it is today.


•.3% pa has only been achievable through constant management threats.


•The additional sweeteners do not apply to most members.


•Management have proven that wage restraint does not guarantee job security.


•The combination of clauses sought by management could destroy our futures.What’s Wrong with the Current Offer?The wage rise put on the table has been rejected by the ALAEA negotiating team for a number of reasons.
Why do Qantas Management get more?Executives and Qantas Managers are not protected by Awards and Agreements. They can be fired at any time or removed from theirpositions by the shareholders. We don’t have the same job security. CEO Geoff DixonYour job seems to be safer than ours Mr. Dixon

Geoff Dixon
With Peter Gregg



•Staff often complain about this years 27% wage rise that Geoff Dixon received.


•Executive incentive schemes make things hard to calculate but the figure that is relevant is called the FAR (fixed annual remuneration).


•FAR is the guaranteed Executive’s take home wages regardless of performance. It is equivalent to our base wage. A figure that the board has set at 3% for all Qantas employees. Executive Wage GrowthThe True StoryHope they haven’t seen the figures on page 65 of the Annual report!•It would be unfair to take this rise in isolation because the previous year saw the CEO take home less than the year before. That’s right he had a wage/bonus cut.

Annual Base wage growth is indicated on the graph to the left.
Mr Dixon’s average FAR wage increase over 5 years = 8.8 % pa
Mr Gregg’s average FAR wage increase over 5 years = 12 % paFixed Annual Remuneration Increases for QF CEO and CFOFixed Annual Remuneration Increases for QF CEO and CFO


A position outside Qantas worth $70,000 in 2003 with average wages applied now earns $84,649 pa
A LAME position within Qantas worth $70,000 in 2003 with 3% wages applied now earns $78,784 paSo How do we Fare in the Scheme of ThingsSo How do we Fare in the Scheme of ThingsDon’t be fooled by management who will say that you also get a levelevery 4 years. The average Australian worker also goes up grades or seniority to earn more money over time. The average wages and LAME grade structure both take into account the fact that workers retire at the top and get replaced by new lower paid staff.


They want them unlimited. Full time jobs could be declared redundant and those who didn’t want to leave could be offered jobs under part time or casual conditions.Casuals/Part timersXPTCourt Case and get paid as a Qantas LAME. Newly employedLAMEscould be paid asAMEs. ExistingLAMEscould be retrenched then offered jobs asAMEsif they didn’t

want to leave. Qantas want this case written into the disputes procedure directing Commissioners to apply the XPT principles to all decisions of management prerogative. To put the XPT case simply –management can do what they want to restructure the workforce for LAMEDefinitionWhat They Didn’t Tell You on TheirRoadshowsWhat They Didn’t Tell You on TheirRoadshows Qantas want to change the way you qualify to work
operational requirements. This could be the transformation of full time to casual employment or less LAMEs and more AMEs.

Current EBA conditions would make it extremely difficult for such a restructure to occur. Additionally there are tight limits on the number of Part timeLAMEsallowed. The actual Part timers employed has rarely met these limits but this may just be a false sense of security that has led to many members believing that they don’t even want additional Part time employees. The current offer on the table has asked for unlimited Part timers and unlimited casuals. The tools would then be available to carry out a massive restructure that could change the face of our industry forever. The ALAEA is opposed to thesechanges.

Destroying our Future. What the new Clauses Could do to you!Destroying our Future. What the new Clauses Could do to you!This stage could be declared by the airline. Contracts could be further slashed and mass redundancies declared.With only limited full timeLAMEsrequired the airline may offer CR or alternative employment in their newly restructured AME heavy business.XPTXPTLAME to AMELAME to AMERestructureRestructureThis is the enabling clause that prevents the ALAEA having any say on internal restructuring.
So What is This Industrial Action?So What is This Industrial Action?

The actions proposed are protected and legalThe vote is invalid unless 50% of ballot papers are returnedFrom the ballot papers returned 50% + 1 need to be infavourIf successful actions would need to commence within 30 daysThe ALAEA do not intend to disrupt passengers and members over Christmas/New Year


Qantas will be threatening members if they stand together. Theywill isolate individuals and ask them to dofavoursso that the Qantas agenda can be achieved. The future of every member is in jeopardy if Qantas get what they want.

So What Will This Get Us?So What Will This Get Us?The ALAEA will continue to negotiate for a fair wage outcome andthe removal of unfair new clauses designed to destroy our future. This is about being taken seriously when we negotiate and not being treated with contempt as we have been in the past. Because the actionsare legal it is every members duty to stand together to ensure that our future is secured by fighting for a fair EBA outcome that doesn’t pave the way to the downfall of the LAME at Qantas. DoDoNOTNOTBREAKBREAKRANKRANK
They Said I Would Lose My Back Pay….

You will only lose yourbackpayif you agree to it.Consider how much you would lose if you were offered the choice between redundancy or a part time AME position.…..and I Was Threatened With My Job.That’s why it is important to stand together. If your workmate is threatened and you stand with him, we are all safe. If any member succumbs to management threats they do so to make themselves look good but as we all know management come and go. Your next boss is likely to be one of the other 1600 members that you had betrayed.


The decision to take Industrial Action has not been taken lightly. Ultimately it was made by the Federal Executive after much member feedback following the misleading managementroadshows. Legal advice and Media concerns have and will continue to beaddressed with professional assistance where required. Federal Executive members and ALAEA union Reps will always be available to discuss any member concerns and address problems as they arise. The following pages will answer a number of questions that have already been raised.

Managing The Action



•I am seconded to an OH&S role and feel that safety should not beeffected by the bans. Do I take part?


•We acknowledge that OH&S plays an important role and immediate safety issues require special exemptions. The facilitator positions are management appointments and are not required under State or Territory Legislation. The ALAEA will only be exempting any action that restricts meeting the relevant local Acts such as the duties of elected OH&S Workplace Representatives in incident investigation and OH&S committee meeting attendance. Facilitator secondments will not be exempt.

•I have overtime built into my roster what happens in this case?


•At this stage the only roster that would be exempt from bans would be for those staff working the old 12 hour Domestic roster . This exemption is only for the hours already incorporated into the roster.Q and AQ and A•I am concerned about the impact on customer work. Can we exclude them from bans?•The ALAEA would be concerned that workloads would be amended to allow all staff on overtime to be assigned to customer aircraft whilst staff on shift are only allocated QF work. In effect this would allow them to circumvent the bans which would likely end up in the campaign taking far longer to impact.


•I am a Senior in HeavyMaintAvalon and do daily overtime to hand over to the oncoming shift. Will this overtime be exempt from bans?


•Safety would be undermined if handovers were not allowed across business. We will be allowing an exemption of 30 mins each day for Seniors and Foreman solely for the purpose of handovers.

•I have signed a contract to be part of an Airbus acceptance teamthat will be travelling to France to collect a new aircraft. Do I still go?


•All work outside Australia will be exempt from bans. This includes acceptance trips, traveller duties for licence coverage, overseas postings and engine change work.Q and AQ and A•What can I say to a workmate if he ignores bans that ALAEA members have approved?•The bans will only be carried out by the 98% of QantasLAMEswho are ALAEA members so those workmates who have chosen not to join the ALAEA will not take part. Members should not harass non members and should instead simply slot an ALAEA membership form in their pigeon holes so they can join the fight against unfair conditions Qantas seek to impose on us.


•Can Qantas lock us out and not pay us?


•Yes they can. In previous disputes they have isolated individuals for this action. The approval for stop work meetings is our counter measure for this and if one man is stood aside we will stand by him with simultaneous 4 hour stop work meetings across the country.

•I am concerned that aircraft will be delayed if we don’t work overtime, should we have an exemption to rectify broken aircraft?


•The entire point of taking the action in the first place is to draw attention to the unfair changes Qantas are seeking by delaying Qantas flights. It is only when this occurs that the Qantas board will take notice of the fact that we are short staffed, under remunerated and well overdue for training. The current management team are onlygetting away with it because we allow it.Q and AQ and A•If the ballot gets up when will the bans start?•Overtime bans –Wednesday the 16thJanuary 2008.•Higher duties bans –Wednesday the 16thJanuary 2008.•Secondment bans -Wednesday 9thJanuary 2008.•Stop work meetings –As required in response to unfair actions by Qantas.


•But shouldn’t we always work to rule?


•That’s right. We don’t expect that the airline will take us to court for working to rule claiming that this is unprotected action. To do so Qantas wouldhave topublicallydeclare that they didn’t want us to work to rule.

•I have further questions that haven’t been covered what should I do?


•Contact the ALAEA office via email and your concern will be addressedasap.
Authorised Steve Purvinas ALAEA Federal Secretary


•Why aren’t A380 training bans included in this ballot?


•A second ballot to ban A380 training will occur if the parties do not reach resolution on the outstanding matter of course selection criteria.Q and AQ and A•Why don’t we have a work to rule?•Please do and start from today.Work to rule is not Industrial action and members shouldn’t need our advice to start delaying Qantas flights by refusing to accept defects, waiting for computer terminals to print out procedures and documenting all work however minor will put more pressure on Qantas and shorten the length ofthe campaign.

[whatdouknow]

Casn we please edit the post and make the font all the same size, I believe if you highlight it all and then just click on size 2 the bold stuff will still be bold.

So hard to read.

Are there any pictures...?
I like pictures especially Powerpoint files.

[Syd eng]

Got my email this afternoon.

[chemical alli]

voting slips out tommorrow guys ,just remember to return them .

[The Mr Fixit]

Qantas paid for JHAS training - true

Qantas Engineering had to 'tender' for what is essentially it's own work - true

Peter Gregg sits on both Leighton's and Qantas' board - true

JHAS was not added as a 'bidder' until the 11th hour after all others had pulled out - true

Engineers had to 'apply' to become licenced on A380 - true

Does this not represent a treacherous attempt to destabilise the union or what ?

Paid for a competitor, tender to your own companies, interesting bedfellows, more interesting bidding process (ooooh to be a fly on the wall) and F#%k merit, base you choice on a$$kissing

Are you guys asleep out there ? this is our waterloo, you wanna be Napolean or Wellington ?

Get your ballot and signal your intentions, we have been denied long enough and it is time we stood up.

[whatdouknow]

Yes everyone, stand up and be counted. Get your ballot and get on it!

[acslame]

anyone got there ballot form yet?

[Romulus]

Qantas paid for JHAS training - true


True


Qantas Engineering had to 'tender' for what is essentially it's own work - true


Why is it their own work?

That is PRECISELY the attitude that leads to inefficiency which creates opportunities for outsourcers - true.

With all the advantages of incumbency why did they not automatically get the work and why have we been able to make such a strong tilt for it?


Peter Gregg sits on both Leighton's and Qantas' board - true


True.



JHAS was not added as a 'bidder' until the 11th hour after all others had pulled out - true


Untrue. We initially went in with SIAEC from the start and both parties were asked to submit individual bids as well. We got through, others didn't.


Engineers had to 'apply' to become licenced on A380 - true

Again, what of it? Would you prefer/accept a system where you simply got told what to do?


Does this not represent a treacherous attempt to destabilise the union or what ?

Nope.

Draw all the threads together you like and present a conspiracy theory of an X-File proportion but the union is probably the last thing on QF's mind. Gaining advantage from drawing on the knowledge of a highly competitive engineering organisation is something else again.

Let's be clear here. We are presenting a different way of doing things that may be adjudged as being more efficient.

If we can show that we should (rightfully) win the work. If we can't we shouldn't.

Simple really.

[Clipped]

Without degrading the attributes of your organisation Romulus.

Please look at it from the perspective of a QE employee. QE has the facilities, capability, personnel etc etc to service the current and future fleet (or it certainly did a couple of years ago). Those capabilities have diminished simply because management want to rein in their legacy workforce.

So please allow us to be a little skeptical of this circus.

[Romulus]

Without degrading the attributes of your organisation Romulus.

Please look at it from the perspective of a QE employee. QE has the facilities, capability, personnel etc etc to service the current and future fleet (or it certainly did a couple of years ago). Those capabilities have diminished simply because management want to rein in their legacy workforce.

So please allow us to be a little skeptical of this circus.

Fair enough.

Bear in mind that QF Eng are playing in an entirely new space against companies (not just us) who view enginering as an honourable profession and make it their entire living.

We can build nuclear reactors, we can build sturctures that do amazing things. Now we have bought a whole lot of aviation engineering expertise. Marry the two together and QF Eng have a strong competitor on their own turf for the first time.

there is no question QF Eng is a very good aviation engineering organisation - question is can they deliver the commercial requirements of the modern day airline?

And no, this does not allow a compromise on safety.

[600ft-lb]

Why is it their own work?

That is PRECISELY the attitude that leads to inefficiency which creates opportunities for outsourcers - true.

With all the advantages of incumbency why did they not automatically get the work and why have we been able to make such a strong tilt for it?Why is it their own work ? Why even have "Qantas Engineering" if you stifle your own companies ready made, currently employed workforce with all of the infrastructure in place to make it happen.

The whole fascicle "bidding process" involved with the A380 maintenance is a workforce union busting exercise and thats it. The staff are being punished with the ever present axe over their heads if they don't accept a very, very substandard EBA the A380 maintenance contract is the final wedge that will break QE's LAME staff, should all go to plan.

Could you ever imagine the likes of Singapore Airlines tendering out their own airlines 'work' to 3rd party operators ? The airline, that Qantas incidentally helped to set up its engineering operations, isn't out there looking for the lowest bidder, they actually made their engineering department capable of bidding for 3rd party work at competitive prices. What has QF management done ??? S.F.A. ..

Notice all of the redundancies lately, how many LAME's have left, how much training has been done to take up the slack of the experience which has left the company. This whole :ugh:process:ugh::ugh: really is a steaming load of crap. Qantas has allowed its engineering workforce to become a mere skeleton of what it once was, the company has agreed to the past EBA's, kept the companies 'policy' of 3% pay rises, been happy with the processes of keeping EBA's, yet its staff are just not competitive enough.

Its not the staff who aren't flexible, uncompetitive, highly paid or (lowest in the industry actually, compare 1 license lame level 3 $1030 a week to virgin 90k/year) or lazy. Management really have not even tried to get out there and chase the extra work (there has been a systemic process of dumping all 3rd party work over the last 4 years), plan the work loads to match the work force (2 transits per 8 hour shift.....).

Is it really the fault of the LAME's at Qantas ? Qantas has no doubt formed a focus group that has recommended a committee be formed that undertake a tendering process to find out if the amazing people that have swindled countless dollars from Qantas books to make their senior managers feel better are throwing stuffed toys at each other have carried out a risk assesment of the eyes stitched to the teddy bears.

Qantas engineering started to go down hill when the current managements direction changed from fixing planes in an efficient manner, to going to kamp krusty, throwing toys, meaningless safety observations, mountains of paperwork if someone stubs a toe, having facilitators to facilitate facilitation, spending millions on a consultancy groups tragedy map that still doesn't make sense in its revised format the list goes on.

Really it is time to get out of this sinking ship, the best thing the LAME's can do is to go on strike and go down fighting, and preferably bring down the current managers with them who have destroyed Etoms(another costly mistake), whoops, I meant QE otherwise you will all be out of a job in the next 5 - 10 years when the new aircraft are all here and Qantas engineering, though no fault of the engineers funnily enough, just wasn't competitive enough to win the tender for the work.:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I wish I could write my notices that well. :D

[All Trades]

With all these seperate buisness units all bidding for their own work and then charging each other for each others services seems to me to be nothing more than a cost in administration. After all in the final wash up at the end of the financial year there is only one profit statement to the genaral public, and that is how much Qantas airways made, (improved on last years record profit).
ROM if you guys are successfull with your bid I wish you nothing but luck, a great balance sheet (which will do nothing more than impact on another QA record profit) and a successfull future in aviation.
Rant mode on
I am sick to death of telling our managers from DMM's up, that we are fed up with their rants about the business and the new business model, the business this, the business that, the business, the business, the way forward, a sustainable future, the latest stradegy map, the bridge of trust, the three pillars,inteligent space,amazing people, and on and on.
When will they ever get it into their heads that we are not interested in all the feel good management speak and week ends up the creek having group hugs, all we want to do is fix aeroplanes to the best of our ability with the minimum of fuss for fair remuneration and not have to deal with their business c#@p. After all we are Lames, not managers, and those of us that have chosen to no longer be Lames and think a secondment is a managers position, go back to work and stop taking your penalties under false pretences.:ugh:
Rant mode off.
One more for ROM, It looks like you are in the box seat for the 380 if the ASN continues along the lines of stifling QE in their bid for the 380 work, good luck for the future and be sure to read your contract carefully
AT

[NAS1801]

Why is it their own work?

That is PRECISELY the attitude that leads to inefficiency which creates opportunities for outsourcers - true. Romulus.... I have always thought that you were reasonable with your posts. I'm a bit disapointed with the above one though.

Qantas Engineering has a wealth of experience on the Qantas fleet. Most of our engineers know our aircraft types intimately. A 747 is not a 747 is not a 747. Each operator has their own differences in configurations, systems and most importantly, procedures and documentation. It makes sense to award the work to the most experienced work force. Unfortunately, this workforce has been constantly threatened and systematically demoraised over the last 5 or so years.

The inefficiencies to which you elude, have been introduced intentionally by QF management. Lack of spares, lack of manpower, lack of tooling, changes to procedures, an often ridiculous approach to OH&S, The blatant lack of initiative to tender for third party work.

And to make matters worse, we have effectively been forced backwards with our wages over the last 10 years. Anyone would think SARS, September 11 and Fuel prices are the fault of engineers, pilots, hosties etc as we are the ones that have been told to take wage freezes and then no more than 3%P/A. Of course, Senior managers were not to blame for SARS, 9/11, fuel$.... they are the victims!

I wish I could write my notices that well. But you do Steve. Nice powerpoint presentation. Thanks for returning my email this evening. You definately have our support. ;-)

[whatdouknow]

Support... get the word out, we need everyone on board.

Rally the troops :8

[rudderless1]

Sadly Qf Engineers even hope John Holland will win due to the filth that now runs QF Engineering.

Goodluck Romulus.It seems fate'au complait you will get it!

Realistically in any well managed business, with QF Engineerings background, knowledge, experience and relationship to the company (and cost) you should never have been able to compete but alas due to sheer incompetence and mismanagement it will go.

Just like the sale, there are self serving reasons for it. I am sure you will see prominent names associated with all new contracted businesses. John Holland and Aviation Australia for starters.

I'm glad little Johnny and his crony club is over!:=

[Short_Circuit]

I have heard from the 2 day love fest by some 150 QF MACS & DMM’s it was a kick up the bum for them by QF Marketing. They were told they have failed to present a quality product to their Customer, Marketing, and that they had better to pick up their game or pay the consequences.

The rest of the 2 days was spent trying to work out what had gone wrong! The result is that the Engineers are not being held accountable!!! They do not care about detail (quality) of workmanship or have pride in their work. They need to conform to the 4 pillars concept of management. They need to identify problems and take ownership of it.
They need to have heart!

Well, excuu-uu-se me, is that not what we have been telling management for decades, only to see them duck and weave, cut corners and reduce spending on the very things that would prevent the slide in the first place just so that they get a big FAT bonus. What a hide management have in placing the blame back to the boys on the floor. The very boys that have been banging their heads against a brick wall :ugh:for years, wearing the job cuts, stress and lack of remuneration.

Lean sigmas, cutting jobs & license numbers to the bone have only reduced the opportunity to produce a quality product that engineers would be proud to produce. Management will now spend Millions again to sidestep the fact that without skilled manpower & sufficient licenses, it will not turn around.

How the hell do they think we can do the work we need to do without manpower, resources and a pat on the back from time to time, (and a lunch break every day).

Well I think the tide is starting to turn and the rejection of the latest EBA will help those, who can help get things going again, see where the problem lies. I am sick of hearing that we have to work harder & smarter time and time again whenever management get a boot up the rear.

Time for management to be accountable.

[Short_Circuit]

he says with a grin :)


:ok: for action

[acslame]

I just love it when management hide behind the " You don't understand the business" statement
Well here is what I know
Our aircraft , I know how they work, how they are operated, who operates them , where they go, where they are maintained , who maintains
them (until recently). what gets done to them in the hangar, where the support shops are , who is in them , what they do there , how long it takes to do a job,Where stores are now (and used to be), the lack of spares , Eoc
and the disaster that fell on it under M's control, The disaster that fell on
syd heavy. OH&S joke , lack of licenses , ame's leaving , aging aircraft,
computers that don't work , people hiding in facillitators jobs, AND A WHOLE LOT MORE
So don't tell me I don't know the f**king business

Its management that doesn't know the business.
All they can do is blame the staff and the unions for there own lack
of understanding and vision. They make promises that they have no idea
how to deliver on, and then they try to "engage to workforce" because they have no idea what they are doing
Christ, what hope have you got when the manager of SIT(sio or whatever they are now) doesn't understand why there are 2 clocks there showing different times!!!!!

The truely sad part is that as QE employees we have told them time and time what is wrong and, more so how to fix it. And save money by doing so!

They talk of the culture in engineering , well thats rich coming from management who has a culture of never ever listening to your staff, never
admit you are wrong, never reverse a decision they made that isn't working. Any meeting with staff is just tokenism!
There is more intelligent space in the smoke room than in a meeting
with QF management. In fact , if I hear any more rhetoric from these
fools I think I will scream.
What is the latest, a safety contact? Spare me please.

Here is a news flash
I am doing my job! Time our managers do there's.
QF management are inefficant, out of touch and ineffective.
They care more about LTI's than production issues.

And then there are the lies.
How can you even talk of crossing the bridge of trust when all qf
management do is tell us blatant lies .
I cannot believe that they will sit there and lie to our faces when they
know full well that we know otherwise.
They must think we are truly stupid.
How do you respect someone who can't even tell you the truth?

Now its EBA time and the usual threats are happening.
We'll, send the 330 offshore! Just do it and shut the f**k up!
I am sure the Bne heavy boys are sick of management holding it over them!
We will give JH the 380 (and good luck to them as well), let them have it I say.
We need to be able to compete with MRO's. Yeah , never happen with you
clowns running the show.
Cut costs so we can keep / get the jetstar contract. Whatever! they are just
piggybacking of the parent company anyhow.
blah blah blah and so and so forth.

Well you know what. I am so sick of being blamed for the inabillities of
this current crop of managers.
Its not about the money, Its about QF staff getting screwed so petty
little managers can get there bonus's off the the backs of the people who
know the business and are getting there job done in spite of management

SP ,I am with you all the way
I am voting to take industrial action in an attempt to save my job,
because if these dickheads in management keep going as they are
sure as **** we will meet with the same fate as syd heavy.
Its time we took a real hard look at what is going on around us
and act accordingly .

Next time I might tell you what I really think!!!!!!!!!!!

[whatdouknow]

Boom Boom, good stuff.

I agree... wholeheartedly. :ugh::ugh:

[Romulus]

Wow, plenty of feeling in here today.

So as a simple summary - thanks for the support, under what would be wierd circumstances for most.

And that's the key point of me posting here, I don't believe it's that hard to win the hearts and minds of people by being open and honest regardless of whether or not people want to hear the message. Doesn't mean we'll be lifelong friends but at least we'll understand each other.

With regard to QF Eng I KNOW you have a lot of capability and expertise. I KNOW you are an exceptional organisation in many ways, and yes, when I do my research I know it was QF Eng who originally helped set up SIAEC and others.

There's a lesson in there for me, I suspect there is for others as well.

[whatdouknow]

Are you in a position to understand and do anything? Also, if you are are, do you care enough to right some wrongs.

I would hazard a guess that the answer would be No though, faith and respect is hard to retrieve after it is gone!

[rudderless1]

VOTE, don't stuff it up when you do so.
1/ Tick the right box, DON'T OTHERWISE MARK THE BALLOT
2/ SIGN THE BACK OF THE BALLOT ENVELOPE
3/ POST IT!
4/ CARRY IT OUT ASSERTIVELY

IF YOU DON'T YOU DESERVE WHAT YOU GET!

[AEROMEDIC]

Hear, Hear !!! :ok::ok::ok:

[NAS1801]

Wow! Crunch time is fast approaching! There was a time when I worried about my future at Qantas. Now I don't give a f^%#k at all. The place is fast going downhill.

Once the industrial action kicks in, there is bound to be disruption to services. I am confident that the association is planning a media statement to counter the inevitable attack that Cox will unleash through his own media statement. I have a suggestion.

The association should set up a website with factual information as to why its members are taking the action. Website hosting and domain names are cheap nowdays. something like QFacts.com.au (it's not taken!) The PPT that members received would be a good starting point. I have noticed that the print media tends to link to websites more often nowdays. It would be a chance to present a very clear and convincing case to the general public.

[rudderless1]

Don't be a dope
make sure you Vote!:ok:

Post by the 17th better to do it today and encourage others as well.;)

[Annulus Filler]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this vote for Industrial Action related to advancing claims in the QF offered EBA? I just can't see how any improved offer is going to change the way LAMEs think about current management at this moment.

[rudderless1]

This is the LAME EBA v111 thread. The EBA has a VOTE! on at the moment
But I guess the vote could also be an indicator of the distrust and lack of confidence in the current management!

[rudderless1]

Total disengagement of the workforce due to complete incompetence should result in a change of management to fix the problems:confused:

[mahatmacoat]

I would accept 3% if they sacked M and his David Cock.

[Short_Circuit]

I am sure it is not so much the lousy 3%

BUT it's all the rest of the cr@p! :=

[ata 38 32]

The money is sad but they are trying to lower there cost base, its the workplace changes I object to, they could lead to carnage down the track.

[mahatmacoat]

There are some days when I come to work and read the ususal garbage, management diatribe and RandS rubbish on my work email system but today was different. I and the others in the section p*ssed ourselves with the latest attempt by management to scuttle the EBA Industrial Action ballot over the email system with their usual threats of offshoring and loss of work. The latest gaff of course from none other than the usual Qantas overachiever in the propoganda stakes Mr David Cox.

To put this in perspective it must be understood that Mr Cox has sent this threatening email to all LAMEs at Qantas plus, every Engineering manager, DMMs, all Hr managers and Kevin Brown.

One ALAEA member decided that his utter rubbish deserved a response. Instead of hittig the reply button, it appears that the reply all has accidentely been hit. Response as follows-

Dear Sir,

My name is Bob ******. I'm a LAME in Brisbane Heavy Maintenance. I will keep this to te point.
Until now I was unsure which way I would vote in the upcoming ALAEA ballot. I no longer have any doubts. Your email, that I find both condescending and insulting, has convinced me that protected action is the only possible option. I will also encourage as many members of the ALAEA to pursue the same course of action.




Good one Bob, I don't think it will take long to convince others to support the action. It looks like Cox has done most of the work for you.

[blackhander]

Don't think he accidently hit reply all mahatma.
Good on ya Bob
Did DC actually think that email would have a positive responce.
I certainly haven't haven't been strolling around telling the troops what a great offer they've put on the table.
Vote early and vote wisely

[rudderless1]

Copping the shyt in the mail today as well from this over rewarded buffoon.

Tragic he does not see the problem. Does not his most valuable assets deserve some reward and recognition as well.
Don't see him stumbling to accept 29% plus $3 million in shares for totally stuffing engineering!
Give it up Cox you blow your trumpet too often.:=:yuk:

[K9P]

Don't worry before it really hits the fan he will pick up his marbles and move on to his next disaster and say "Well that never happened while I was in charge!"
Sound familiar....The corporate war cry. LOL

[sickofqf]

"We can build nuclear reactors"

Romulus, Are you referring to the new Lucas Heights one ?

[acslame]

They still don't get it do they.
At the 11th hr they are threatening people!
Can you believe it!
Instead of going out and trying to mediate the situation
they are pulling the old QF heavy handedness.
WE ARE SICK OF YOUR BS DAVE!!!!!!
Nothing you have done has made the operation run
more efficently . GET IT

Where is the plan for the future dave?
Where is the shared vision dave?
There isn't any is there dave
all you have done is totally pissed your staff off dave!
In case you still don't understand it means that we
are all totally disengaged dave

You can talk the talk but you sure as hell
arn't walking the walk.
You and your so called leadership team have destroyed
engineering by your neglect and failure to listen to the
people who know the job.
You could have run the place like clockwork and saved
heaps of money.
Instead you listen to the wanna be's who will talk your
new world speel and tell you what you want to hear.
And worse you have put people who have no idea what
they are doing into management positions!
M what a goose!!!
You and your team are FRAUDS.
Tell me one thing that you have implemented that has
actually made us more efficiant or compeditive ?
Yeah that's right
NOTHING
So go on threaten me
You have told me for so long that you are going to send everything
offshore that I really don't care anymore
and all you are doing now is proving that you have
totally lost control
Well done dave!

[sickofqf]

I can't wait for the action to start........the planners had better set up a shortcut button on their PC's for printing DR&R's !!
Also, ACS boys, get ready for them to send out the SEM cavalry to do any engine work they can find..........and expect you LAME's to 'buy-back' their dodgy PE DR&R's......
.....but if it's up to their usual standard we'll be peeling plastic from the ducts a few days later...........

[K9P]

There's Lean Sigma......you can get a black belt! WTF
Then there is "The Bridge of Trust"....What as misnomer that is.
And Intelligent Space.......I wonder if DC has found any of that.
And there's probably lots more great stuff that has been done
I thought of one more.....The White Boards and the magnets....oh yes they were just great,
specially when the SLAMEs had to get out and make sure they were up to date before end of shift.
What a crock!

[Clipped]

There may be only 135 posts on this topic, but it has been viewed more than 9000 times. To those of you who do not post, no prob .... but be ACTIVE in casting this very important vote.

[check1-2]

just 2 letters in the post today, 1 shredded, 1 vote posted :ok:

[blackhander]

Just wandering down to post mine now.
Feels goooood:)

[satos]

As the great Teddy Whitten used to say when the Vics beat SA In the VFL "we stuck it up them".Go the ALAEA.

[company_spy]

just received my dear john letter from dc,it hurt me really bad and deep especially the sharp edges when i wiped my ass with it

[whatdouknow]

Good work everyone, what a lovely response, cast your vote, (say your piece) and sit back and watch.

Good to see that momentum is starting to build.

Unity required, unity building!!

[acslame]

Company Spy
Funnest Thing I Heard All Day!!
Rectinol Could Possibly Help

[employes perspective]

go for it boys and girls,we got the same spin yr in yr out in relation to outsourcing HM syd ,we ate their sh!t sandwich and we still got shut down,nothing these pricks say has any truth ,do it for the people in H245 .GOOD LUCK:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[Talkwrench]

A few things to consider: 1. If the vote gets up and industrial action is taken, we WILL improve the EBA offer. History proves this. 2. If the vote goes down, the first thing Ian and Sue will say to the ALAEA negotiating committee is: “you have misread your membership, the negotiation is over” and we will be stuck with the current offer. The negotiating committee needs your support to progress the negotiation. You need to consider this vote not so much as a vote for or against industrial action but more as a vote for or against acceptance of the current QF EBA offer. 3. Casting your own vote in the affirmative is only the first step. To use a QF phrase, you need to take “ownership” of this vote and encourage your colleagues to vote accordingly. Just remember, the ALAEA submitted to 3% outcomes for years and years but it still didn’t save Sydney HM. Nothing is different this time. Accepting 3% now will NOT guarantee your employment. QF are the first to admit that there are no guarantees ever. They will “work to the EBA” end of story. The exec have done their part, the ball is now in the memberships court. If the vote goes down, the membership will only have themselves to blame. Get active. Tell others to read PPRUNE and this thread. Print it out and take it to work. Rant over…

[aveng]

Just posted mine. Bring on the war:ok:.

[hadagutfull]

received,box marked, signed and back at the post office in record time.......
bring it on........

[chemical alli]

quoted from said letter


this is not the time for a "wait and see attitude" please do not be swayed by peer pressure, but make a considered decision based on whether you support the business that does and will employ you in the future.

tell it to the h245 guys and girls who voted for effeicencies only to be shafted by you dc.

what you reap you sow, voted ,posted and telling the world. its now on the members heads so stop bitching and have your say.

[Annulus Filler]

Sounds like the boot is poised right behind DC's backside ready to strike.
Lest we forget HM Sydney.

[CAVEDWELLER]

With Qantas announcing today a projected 40% increase in profit for next year to 1.4 billion, I think it is time to show us the money and 3% ain't it.

[NAS1801]

From todays Australian... Qantas upgrades profit forecast


Staff writers | December 13, 2007

QANTAS upgraded its earnings outlook today, forecasting its fiscal 2008 profit to be around 40 per cent higher than last year.

The revised estimate would take annual group profit before tax to about $1.5 billion.

The airline had previously forecast in August an increase of about 30 per cent, Qantas (ASX: QAN: quote) said in a statement.

Shares in Qantas jumped as much as 5.4 per cent to $6.06 in early trade today. By mid-morning, the stock was up 4.5 per cent to $6.01.

“Since then Qantas’ operating businesses have continued to perform strongly, with the results for the first five months of 2007/08 above forecast and the forward booking profile also remaining robust,” chief executive Geoff Dixon said.

“This outlook remains subject to no significant deterioration in operating conditions including fuel prices and currency exchange rates.” Move aside boys, nothing for us here..... the trough is for Dixons nose only. What an insult!

[Red Baron]

As an AME in Heavy 'bring it on'. Although the overtime bans are going to hurt some of us AME's the bigger picture has to be seen as the 3% wage increases are a now going to be a thing of the past. We need a BIG union within Qantas like the ALAEA to break this pathetic wage increase when CPI increases have been well above 3%!

We are losing more and more LAME's each day, Virgin Tech, Cathay Pacific, Singapore Airlines and now John Holland down in Melbourne, why, because people are sick and tired working longer hours for bugger all wage increases. People are filling in for Supervisor's, Foremans and Managers with no replacements, enough is enough!

Stay united fella's like the nurses did with their dispute and lets show Qantas that 3% is no way a fare wage increase these days.

Look forward to when our EBA expires so that we too can go for a greater CPI increase!

Oh by the way tell them to stick their work flexibilities also!

[MENDAERO]

My vote is in
QANTAS V ALAEA........LETS RUMBLE!

[The Black Panther]

Using a base of 100. This is the relative change earnings comparing Dixon, Aust Ave, QF Lame and the share price.
In 2003 the share price was around 3.8 to 4.9 range

Thus in 2003 all are 100
Dixon Aust Ave QF Lame Share Price
100.....100........100.........100
In 2007
152.....125........115.........135

Do you really think GD is being fair anyone. His relative take is greater than the return to share holders (not including div's). He is gangbusters against LAME's. I wonder where middle management would fair in this exercise.

Of course GD is unique. He is rates customers and employees as insignificant, "only the shareholders are important". So I doubt he will miss our overtime, higher duties and secondment in January. Perhaps GD will get a truck load of shareholders in to change a few wheels when needed?

I just wonder if Marg is thinking "you'd have to be mental not to take the 3%"

[sickofqf]

perhaps we'd even settle for no pay rise at all.........

....as long as DC, MH, KM etc are all turfed out the door and replaced with quality managers......


hey, here's an idea, subcontract the management of ACS to Lufthansa, just like JTS in Tulla ?!

[The Black Panther]

Perhaps if GD and PG had kept there take to 3% the impending strife may have been averted. Why are they SO GREEDY? GREED GREED and more GREED. It makes me physically sick.

I see wonderful friends helping kids in need, cancer victims and kids suffering from abuse and them you see the GD's in the world. He is not alone and I don't want to sound personal there are plenty who's GOD is money. Lets hope we get a Gerry Harvey type CEO before not to long. Even bring back Tubby.

However even if they had shown restraint over the years this is by far the worst group of incompetent managers I have seen together for a while. I think individually there have been worse performers but as a group my memory can't remember a group to beat these.

I am afraid VR may have been a better option than what lies ahead for QF ENG.

[company_spy]

just remember xmas cards are playing strife with postal voting so get em in early and give dc and gd an early xmas pressy

[PIOT Bord]

BREAKING NEWS - COX WANTS ALAEA TO TAKE ACTION

You guys have it all wrong about DC's letter. He wants us to take action.

The letter is addressed to 'Dear Colleague'; a colleague is a peer. He then rants on about how we owe him and his cronies the world, blah, blah, blah, and appeals to us not to take action. But he ends with the wise words - 'Please do not be swayed by peer pressure...'.

Seeing that he has already classed himself as our peer (Aren't we lucky), he actually wants us not to be 'swayed' by the crap in his letter. Therefore, he wants us to take action.

I don't know how you could have misunderstood our mate so much!!!!!!!!!!

[Clipped]

Dave ... received my letter today, at home ... ah, and thank you for making up my mind.

Ticked, signed and posted.

[chemical alli]

heard there was going to be a meeting in sydney today on the alaea and eba with acs managers anyone with any news for interstate lames ?

[Short_Circuit]

Hearing stories that some of the boys are not receiving voting papers, possibly due to QF intervention or stuff up. :hmm:

[Millet Fanger]

PIOT, word around is that Cox's letter has been the best motivation for the ALAEA yet.

[split pin]

For those who think they are on a good wicket $$$ at QE, don't be blinded. Take out shift penalties/OT and other allowances and see how it looks for a big city wage. Will not be so pretty then.

Rip it into them, otherwise it will be the same old story in 3 years from now.

SP.

[whatdouknow]

I hear that the company had another presentation again yesterday, suggesting to the LAME's that they will lose 4hrs pay if they take action.

Isn't it more like if you have a stop work meeting!? :ugh::ugh:

More untruth's to scare the workers...

Vote now everyone, one for the person that keeps the airline flying...

[Short_Circuit]

I am happy to give them 4 hours pay right now to show we mean business.
I am more concerned with the future of Aus Engineering and Aircraft Safety than 4 hours pay!
:cool:

[whatdouknow]

^yep there are a few that feel that way, you may not be alone in that sentiment...

:cool:

[Annulus Filler]

I would like to propose that we all be docked 4 hours pay and that Qantas collect it and send it to charity. Whose in favour?

[Short_Circuit]

I have no problem with that.:)

PS

And have K Brown match it!

[NAS1801]

had a call from a mate up in Brisbane. Apparently, Cox held a meeting along with their manager. He went on for 5 mins with his crap then called for questions..... SILENCE!!!! both cox and their manager got very pissed that nobody had any questions. hahahahahaha well done boys!!! Hope he faces the same silence everywhere he goes!

[theQfacts]

lets see if my post makes it here this time... http://theqfacts.*************

[blackhander]

Twas a very good meeting
Silence is golden
The only thing I heard was 'lying c**nt' spoken under the breath from the back row
Arvo shift backed up with more of the same

[acslame]

Was This Bris Heavy?

[ConcernedLAME]

Yes it was BNE Heavy...Was great to see the boys remain tight lipped,even though their blood is boiling. Mr Cox left the room very quickly and obviously frustrated at the lack of feed back from the boys.
Well done....Reminded me of something I saw on TV not to long ago...:ok:

[Clipped]

Heard he got the same dose of silence from the Line boys.

Maybe there is just nothing more that is needed to be said.

Can't wait for him to do the rounds down here.

[Millet Fanger]

Slicker has excelled himself at the Sydney meeting again with his charismatic presentation style - "You will vote no, and you will be thankful for what we offered, or there will be consequences" (abbreviated translation).

From the efforts of DC, MH and KM at these meetings it seems they are working hard to make sure that the YES vote gets up. Go figure!!!!!

[Clipped]

I figure ...

Dixon and Co have very deep pockets and they do want a fight.

With the resolve of LAMEs in the past ... why wouldn't they pick one?

One hopes that we can see that this battle will curb the 'change' we had to have. Remember your employer wants no part of you in this current form to look after its new fleet.

So much for valuing the professionalism of LAMEs in the past.

Most of us despise the direction we're going in now ... MAKE A STAND.

[MENDAERO]

I've started to choose lifestyle over O/T already, and gee I seem to be unwell a bit lately also. How are you guys feeling? Make sure you take plenty of me time!

Oh and that delegation/supervision thingy, I just can't seem to look after that many guys, these days, I guess I'm just not dealing with the pressure, I'll just back off a bit and slow down.

Anyway I hope you guys are keeping well.............relaxed!:)

Remember Safety before Schedule

MENDAERO

[Short_Circuit]

Isn't this cr@p from DC MH & KM boardering on Harassment? :=
Isn't that against Policy?..................................... :=
Isn't that punishable? ................................:=
What does the Board think about this? :=

[company_spy]

i agree i am feeling fatigued and stressed ,time to use some of those 100+ sickies i think.oh if called for o/t perfect response i have just finished my 5th beer

[whatdouknow]

Good work everyone, spread the news.

Yes we should all work smarter and don't forget the safety before schedule and take 5.

[soldier of fortune]

i have a question to all the regular **** stirers on this thread -why would the company offer us more than the 3% they have offered the other unions.?

[arthur_baird's_dead]

^ because were not the only department who deserves more than 3% and its time we all stood up for ourselves and made a stand!!!! we're all sick and tired of bending over and copping a big one

[employes perspective]

because there is a skills shortage:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[MENDAERO]

i have a question to all the regular **** stirers on this thread -why would the company offer us more than the 3% they have have offered the other unions.?

Because someone has to break the mold.

But also, we are supposed to be separate business units, with all this segmentation they speak of. Therefore other business units EBA's, should have no bearing on our EBA claim.

With your theory, we should be offered a 30% pay cut and an increase in working hours for new starters, but protect our legacy arse's with a measly 3%.

We may all work for the same airline, but your comparing apples to oranges.:rolleyes:

[600ft-lb]

i have a question to all the regular **** stirers on this thread -why would the company offer us more than the 3% they have have offered the other unions.?because unlike flight attendants, we aren't a profession that is able to be trained in 1 week and able to become strike breakers;
becuase there is a countrywide shortage of AME's let alone qantas type LAMEs;
because 3% doesn't pay the bills these days;
because of the principle of having the perpetual axe swinging over the heads of the LAME's across Qantas is wearing a bit thin, if they want to outsource a particular maintenance function of an aircraft, then do it, the engineers don't care anymore, its not worth bending over again and again to accept the so called flexibilities that qantas require the LAME's to accept so to secure the future of lames within Qantas. They don't offer job security(a verbal doesn't mean jack from these guys) there is nothing in writing to protect anything they verbally agree to, and until that is the case, don't believe a thing any manager says. simple.

[Short_Circuit]

Look past the 3%, look deeper into the document, thats where the BIG issues lie. :yuk:

[whatdouknow]

Who's stirring the ****...

Most are just saying how they feel and commenting on what is happening.

[PIOT Bord]

Because Qantas has been in "a purple patch" for the last couple of years, which looks like it is continuing. The board and management have awarded themselves obscene pay rises while those people who have built the company over many years can't crack any thing more than 3% as the sky is about to fall in.

[adenuffofqf]

The crap about losing 4 hours of pay might be a little nastier than it looks,the way the fc and that dill cox read the legislation might mean losing 4 hours minimum for each piece of industrial action.... including refusal of overtime. so the theory goes everyday you have off they will ring you and ask you to come in if you refuse and have a history of doing ot then you will lose 4 hours from your normal pay.. personally I will be far too drunk to come in :}

[domo]

if you are unavailable due to health or family reasons it a big ask, maybe we should all just stop doing overtime between now and new year and see how they cope? let them struggle and see who will break ranks

[TIME EX]

I'm Very Concerned Where This Will All End.

[Clipped]

Living in fear of your employer - NOW I am concerned.

[Millet Fanger]

adenuffofqf - I think we all have, however I have to disagree with the fear campaign being spread by DC and the Oompalumpah. The Alaea has had advice and issued it in a memo, QF can't call you up at home and dock 4 hours pay if you are unavailable.

If you happen to be sick of being intoxicated each time they call, try "I'm providing primary care for my children during the school holidays", "I'm having a couple of days away with my partner", "I was willing to do extra O/T to help the company with the dispatch reliability problem that 'snuck up' on the management team, but my doctor has advised me to cut back - it's becoming a duty of care issue".

[ConcernedLAME]

Anybody feel free to correct me if I am wrong...Our current EBA states that we agree to do a "reasonable amount of overtime". I am sure most throughout the network have already done a reasonable amount year to date.
As far as the scaremongering goes...the only way they can take money from you is for any time away from your place of work during your normal shift. They cannot take money from you for failing to do OT or acting in a higher duties position or secondment for that matter....
Personally I believe it displays the desperation starting to set in and the reality of what may occur if the ballot gets up....
Qantas was once a place that most enjoyed working ,now it has become a trough for the highrachy to scoff profits from off the backs of the employees..We are saying now more...What we ask is not unreasonable considering GDs anouncement of record profits once again.
End of Rant
Cheers

[chemical alli]

everybody already does a reasonable amount of overtime ,its called avot on your pay slip and you need not do anymore.this scare mongering is absolute garbage,they cannont doc you for being unavailable,its protected industrial action,forget the threats and just do what you think is rite ,by yourself and your peers

[K9P]

Piot Bord
Good point! While everyone else has to be aware of the company's tenacious position and work harder and smarter etc, the upper echelon have their snouts deeply in the trough drinking the purple. But the workers must endure the 3% only pay rise for these "Purple Patches"will not last and we must abstain from being greedy, for it will soon be apon us etc etc etc

[MENDAERO]

I'm Very Concerned Where This Will All End.

TIME EX care to elaborate? I'm keen to hear everyones views.

BTW, I hope everyone has mailed their vote and don't forget to remind your work mates to do the same.

[FCMC]

The company can not force you to do O/T. We know from the Perth dispute. We even had nasty letters from PS and still it didn't work. If they state you must do a reasonable amount of O/T ask them what a reasonable amount is?
They will never quote it as then they are obliged to give it to you when they don't require it.
Mr Cox your letter the other day backfired. It made me vote yes even more.You think we are so shallow that deducting 4 hrs off us makes any difference. Listen please-we are sick of your constant threats!!!!From you and your leadership team. It doesn't work! Never think we are idiots. We have no respect for any of you-how could we. How did you get that position, you haven't actually done anything constructive, only destructive. You guys are so out of touch!

Did you ever find out who took the pictures in the elevator? Lucky the EEL worked on QF1 in the golf course that time but of course its a quality issue not an Airworthiness one!
Oh and the 5ft crack on then fuse of the 744 ex MAS because of grinding wheels-another quality lapse! Lucky the next D check was done in AUS where they actually remove blankets and inspect things. Not just sign them off as they do in SIN. Your cheese holes will line up one day!:=

[whatdouknow]

You can not be docked, unless you attend a STOP work meeting.

OT refusal because of human factors is a good way out, you can not possibly do overtime if you are feeling fatigued.

Make sure you send your votes everyone, not long left!!

[Mobi LAME]

Although not a member of the Association it is good to see that there is finally some leadership that is thinking of its members and not itself. How well I remember the days of long past in the Sydney TAA Line Office with BD holding court of his fawning acolytes whilst his shift foreman, 'Fozzie Bear', looked on.

[K9P]

Never forget being "BRUCED". It still hurts!

[Bolty McBolt]

Have heard the gist of big Kevs meeting with the troops in SYD ACS
Lots of fire brimstone, and look out if we vote yes to industrial action. This best is described as desperate stuff from the 3rd floor
I have never heard this type of talk from this manager. Many of us have worked with and around him (pardon the pun) for years and know how he communicates.
Panic is a word that immediately springs to mind ! :eek:

Without drawing to much of a long bow, I would think it is safe to assume the 3rd floor have been threatened with loss of bonus or jobs if this industrial action is not quashed. I would think any manager in ACS would have a very real worry of being made example of by MH or DC and I am sure the MH and DC have also been spoken to as well by PG, JB JD etc with same sword above their heads.

The only manager in ACS who will see any consolation in the LAMEs taking action is the buffoon who runs PERTH. At least he won't be the only manager in the network to have failed to do what he claimed, and his favourite tool was bullying and threats. And we know how that turned out.
A win for the good guys. :ouch:
I will stick to what I think is right, I am not happy with 3% lets see more, the other 2 nasty clauses in EBA document about conflict resolution (XPT) and reclassification of LAMEs to AMEs.
I will not vote YES to the EBA until these are resolved.
Until then I am an army of 1.
Protected industrial action or not, there is much under MH rule book that slows the process down.
Many of you cleaver guys are very creative. I am sure with the maintenance manual and the policy manual on your side there is much we can do.

Intereting times ahead :ok:

To Quote — Gordon Bethune, CEO Continental Airlines, quoted in 'Throwing the Elephant: Zen and the Art of Managing Up,' 2002

Do you know how much faster I can fix an airplane when I want to fix it than when I don't want to fix it?

[HARDNUT]

Well done BNE heavy, silence is the best treatment.We haven't even got a chance up here in QLD.Only got a sh:mad:ty letter.But the boys are keen 90% yes except for a few suckholes and a couple that have taken packages(but will still put there hand out for the 5%) when we get it.Just remember. UNITED WE BARGAIN.DIVIDED WE BEG! Stick together.What is the consensus at the other ports??????

[whitenite]

Any one remember a few years back when there were wage freezes due to the company going through hard times and the connotation being that come the good times, then it would not be forgotten that we'd been a great bunch of fellas and gals, and we'd all share in the good times? Well with a forecast pre-tax profit of approx 1.5 billion (that's 1 followed by 9 zeros if you use American billion or 12 zeros if you use pommy) then I'd say good times have well and truly arrived, and I'd like to see a return on my 'good fella' voucher. If qf want the press to report a 3% wage rise then a significant sign off 'bonus' (a la trolley dollies) could be a good way for both camps to walk away with dignity intact.
If you don't want to act in higher position use the excuse that you don't want to take on the legal responsibility re ohas. MH will back you on this as he was a defendant in a liability trial - not in this life's top ten experiences.
Don't want to work o/t - drunk/primary carer/fatigue/out of state or town/don't answer phone/call screen/message bank/anniversary/birthday(esp wife's, kid's)/waiting for delivery or tradesman/met new girl/fella last nite and up to n*ts in g*ts or make something up!
Have fun and enjoy the festive season!

[fordran]

Adl 75% in favour 25% sh!tin bricks.

[HARDNUT]

Good to see slicker is loosing it. Keep rattling his cage.I used to work with him in base maint he didnt get the nick name "ahh slicker" for nothing.But sounds like that wont help him with his bosses now.They want him to get the troops to conform.It wont happen. Dont cave in base boys you have the upper hand now.:D

[HARDNUT]

I wouldn't call myself a regular sh:mad: stirer. Just a part time apprentice.But i think we have a good chance to finally hold our head's above water and get the 5% x 3yrs we deserve.

The current worldwide LAME shortage.Large recruitment drive by ETIHAD and EMIRATES (cathay is looking at protecting themselves from this by doing pay comparisons). Cathay engineers are looking down the barrel of a 20% pay increase to retain them.

Large amount of contract positions unable to be filled in Australia and overseas.

JH unable to get the required skilled staff after extensive advertisments.

Q management will realise our value when our industrial action takes effect (and yes it will get voted in).

Q management should remember the hard times 2000/2001.When we took a pay freeze in good faith.

But that good faith was never rewarded.

Now the company is making record profits the reward isn't 27% DIX, or 47k a F/N cox.

All we want is a meagre 5%.

FOR F:mad: SAKE THROW US A COUPLE OF BONES!!!!!!!! :*

[HARDNUT]

Thanx Whitenite, i might use a few of those excuses when the need arises.

[whitenite]

No prob HARDNUT (why all capitals - are you shouting at all of us?)

If you need any more excuses I have loads. I work with a guy who edited the reference book.
Remember slicker before he was slicker. He was in charge of the 747-400 crew many moons ago in syd. Sounds like he's got out of qf what he wished for - something any wise person should steer clear of. Reason being that there is no next move except out the door (usually at a time of their choosing). A very smart person once told me that if you get into bed with the enemy, make sure you finish first and get the f**k out of bed before they realise they've been screwed.
Hope KL is treating you well.

[diwai]

Question how did the DC talks go in SYD on the weekend????:confused::confused:
And it was Great to see the Boys stick it to DC in Brissy on Friday :D:D:D SILENCE WAS GOLDEN
I hope all the other ports do the same, this has been along time coming, Well Done Brissy Heavy:D:D:D

[company_spy]

Members may find this information leaflet from the government may clarify the position on protected industrial action. Go to this web page, Item 4 second paragraph, should clear up some miss information spread by the company,
http://members.iinet.net.au/~phaedrus/batde/Employeestrikes.pdf

[Antisplash]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qajBfEdzoE&feature=related

Generally, everyone should look at these series of lectures on Union Busting. This shows what Q management want to do.
Trouble is the process may work in land of Stars and Stripes but we have employment contracts (by Union) and the Yanks don't. They are the working poor with people like Trump (and Dark Avenger in LAX) firing left right and centre. That's where the fear comes from - loosing your job and the ramifications to families. But now the fear is in management's guts. With little Johnnie gone there should be no further "Americanisation" of the Aussie work force and their tactics wouldn't work with us anyway. We just want a fair go.

[blackhander]

Thanks Company Spy
Clear as mud

[satos]

Any one remember a few years back when there were wage freezes due to the company going through hard times and the connotation being that come the good times, then it would not be forgotten that we'd been a great bunch of fellas and gals, and we'd all share in the good times? Well with a forecast pre-tax profit of approx 1.5 billion (that's 1 followed by 9 zeros if you use American billion or 12 zeros if you use pommy) then I'd say good times have well and truly arrived, and I'd like to see a return on my 'good fella' voucher.Lets not forget also when they used the sars and bird flue virus excuse during past eba negotiations and then when the eba was signed they announced record profits.
Mr Dixon should be aware that an 'elephant never forgets' when it's been mistreated.

[company_spy]

4. Can I be paid while taking industrial action?
It is illegal for an employer to pay an employee for any
period of industrial action, and for employees to accept
pay for any period of industrial action. It is also illegal for
a union and its members to make claims for pay for any
period of industrial action or to threaten further
industrial action for such pay. This prohibition applies
even if the industrial action is “protected”.
The prohibition does not apply where work has stopped
or is being performed differently by an employee or
employees who have a reasonable concern about an
imminent risk to their personal health and safety owing
to unsafe working conditions. Nor does it apply to
employees who are on leave or on a rostered day off.
Blackhander, I would interpret this as saying the company can not dock me for refusing O/Tor refusing higher duties only for a stop work meeting.
The down side is that the association can not stop anyone working as the company requests if they want to, and no penalty can be imposed by the association

[Headcone]

Whitenite, Satos & Hardnut,

Let me remind you that the wage freeze of which you speak, was only a pseudo wage freeze as far as the LAME’s were concerned.

Due to some clever negotiation, the majority of LAME’s received a pay rise during the term of that EBA through point allocation.The minority that were not afforded a pay rise were those that were quota locked.

How quickly we forget.

:rolleyes:

[blackhander]

CS
I'm sure thats one way it can be interpreted, probably depends on what side the lawyer is coming from.
Just another failure of this bull**** legislation that was rushed without any thought of how it actually works.

[acslame]

this legislation has certainly been tested buy now so
there would be a precedent and I dare say the
ACTU would be aware of it.
More company threats?
I think so

[sickofqf]

Might be a good time to ring your friendly telephone company and ask for caller ID to be activated............

they can't dock you if they can't talk to you !!

[Big Unit]

It shows up as a private number!!!!

[mahatmacoat]

Let me remind you that the wage freeze of which you speak, was only a pseudo wage freeze as far as the LAME’s were concerned.

Due to some clever negotiation, the majority of LAME’s received a pay rise during the term of that EBA through point allocation.The minority that were not afforded a pay rise were those that were quota locked.



New employees did not benefit from this wage freeze but would have if 3% was built in. The base wage was frozen for 18 months and the effect of this was a stagnated wage forever. Those at the top got nothing and those who weren't capped got capped quicker.

The 18 month wage freeze wasn't that clever compared to every other union that took 12 month freezes (one hostie group 15 months).

[Clipped]

Worthy first post Headcone ... now go back to your management office and lock yourself in.

[Headcone]

Clipped & Mahatmacoat,

I am neither an employee of Qantas nor a member of the ALAEA, but have had close ties to both for many years.

It seems that some, like yourselves, prefer to live in denial than to face reality.

:rolleyes:

[AEROMEDIC]

Headcone,
Any benefit from the "wage freeze" has been lost years ago by the erosion of real value of 3% increases. It's time to catch up.

[ata 38 32]

Dixon will hold the line on the 3%, the managers are under pressure to keep their jobs,I think it may be on this time I dont see the guys or managment backing down.expect reactions akin the israel/palestine conflict, but apart from all that enjoy it its been brewing for a while.

[Clipped]

The 3% will always be the magic number that keeps Dicko and Co happy.

Its the sweetners that go along with it that make the difference. It is these that are being negotiated. The Co offer of these sweetners was simply not broad enough. Tempt the majority of LAMEs and a deal will surely be done. That is how the other unions got it over the line. No different here, we're all reasonable people.

3% plus something for all LAMEs = deal done. Simple.

Oh, did I forget, those hideous clauses must be turfed.

[Short_Circuit]

I don’t want to be tied to a RailCorp XPT case where;
Employer always wins what ever it wants
&
Employee always looses regardless.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who feels safe on a train at night? Thanks to RailCorp.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If EBA, with XPT accepted,

Who will feel safe flying anytime time day or night? :uhoh:

[chemical alli]

surely the company knows the current feel and state of the eba from all of the roadshow meeting. threaten and goad any employee and their hackles will surely rise. most lames if polled would probably accept a 3X3 deal less the xpt clause and unlimited p/timers or casuals.give a dog a bone remove quotas and maybe a point or two and gd could sleep easy.
come january if the fifty percent is returned and succesful all bets are off .
like any war there will be casualties albeit acting snr or o/t requirements ,but once it makes the press and share prices fall/flts delayed and premium customers lost then where will the threats and inuendo end.

lames are not unreasonable.to be given roadshows by managers who can only quote what has been told to them and have had no dealings with the negotiations is a joke .losing your temper and publicly vilifying individuals is also abhorent.
on the 11th hour when phones ring hot and jobs are on the line stand firm.

[company_spy]

Well the FC was in fine form at the eba presentation given to the loyal troops all gathered around with eyes wide shut.Would have been helpful if he understood what he was preaching could not answer the questions about the 4 hrs pay and told us that he had not lied to us in the past .
Almost thought it was JA talking to us ,oh well thats life.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

ALAEA badges on the way.


.........WE ARE NOT.......
............COX'S.............
..........SUCKERS...........

[murrayatwell]

They will be popular.

[ata 38 32]

This badge thing makes me think that the eba is not the main issue, people are pi@@ed off about many things and the eba is a legal way to fight back,the badges are antagonistic and will not lead to a resolution of the eba. I think we should not settle as they keep mentioning it must be settled by febuary, I read in the paper that qantas intend to anounce massive restructuring in febuary and it might be better not to be in an eba then.

[MENDAERO]

murrayatwell, nice to see someone has picked up on his real name, he seems to be a 2 dads, perhaps we could put this to good use? For instance all correspondance between the ALAEA and QANTAS could use his first surname instead.

I think all tactics need to be used to get rid of this Major A Hole

[chemical alli]

it feels like xmas eve early, one more sleep until the votes are tabled.for those who took the time and are genuinly concerned about their lively hoods to vote and return we thank you,whichever way you voted.for those of you who did not (not because of mailing address issues) next time grow a spine its your and your families future .

[Kraaken]

As a side issue...
Has anyone seen the latest announcement from QF.
Starting a joint MRO in Malaysia, KL, to handle "overflow work" and customers.
Start date some time in 2008.

This announcement of an MRO and the other of a 40% profit increase are interesting coming in the middle of this EBA "negotiation". Cant help but wonder if its not a little antagonistic.

[FMU]

So let me get this straight. Qantas has just bought into the same facility that caused the scribe marks and subsequent cracking of the ugly sisters!! We are going to send MORE aircraft there??

[600ft-lb]

How convenient the timing. No doubt any of the Qantas maintenance facilities will have to tender for work and compete against itself. Starting to seem like a vicious union breaking cycle that Qantas has instigated.

Unable to innovate and use their own manpower efficiently they have taken the dirty tack of outsourcing to the lowest possible bidder that the 'legacy' facilities have no hope in matching because they are being set up to fail.

Let's just hope there isn't any heroes of the stock that came from Syd Heavy and helped make Avalon the "success" it is today. Not to pull any punches, but if it wasn't for you blokes, Avalon would be dead, buried, gone. Hope the year of allowances for yourselves was worth it. :=


The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the company would:
target the rapidly growing Asia-Pacific MRO (Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul) market, which was
expected to reach US$15 billion in sales by 2016; and
perform overflow airframe maintenance for Qantas and its subsidiary airlines.
Mr Dixon said he was confident the joint venture would create a world class and very cost competitive MRO.
“Qantas Engineering will have a significant input into the management, engineering and quality system of the
new company, which will commence operations in 2008.”


Don't sell yourselves out boys, the "overflow" facility will be just a word by 2010.

[1746]

on the AAP tonight....Qantas, Malaysian Airlines sign MoU
Wednesday Dec 19 18:16 AEDT
Qantas has signed a joint venture agreement with a subsidiary of Malaysian Airlines, MAS Aerospace Engineering (MAE), to establish a company to provide airframe maintenance services from Malaysia.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said the company would target the rapidly growing Asia-Pacific maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) market, which is expected to reach $US15 billion ($A17.48 billion) in sales by 2016.
Mr Dixon said the company would perform overflow airframe maintenance for Qantas and its subsidiary airlines.
Mr Dixon said Qantas had for many years contracted overflow engineering work to a variety of MROs in Asian countries.
"The operation in Malaysia will provide the opportunity to consolidate some of this work, while providing further growth for the Qantas group," he said.
Mr Dixon said he was confident the joint venture would create a world class and cost competitive MRO.
"Qantas engineering will have a significant input into the management, engineering and quality system of the new company, which will commence operations in 2008.".
Mr Dixon said the venture built on the $300 million investment Qantas had previously announced for its Australian engineering operations.
"This venture also reflects the Qantas group's objectives of growing our aviation-related businesses into growth markets in Asia and the Pacific," he said.
Malaysia Airlines chief executive and managing director Idris Jala said MAE is "well positioned to build a world class aviation MRO joint venture with Qantas".
"Our priority will be to develop Kuala Lumpur as a hub for the Asia Pacific region for MRO services," he said.
"Malaysia Airlines is already the leading civil MRO provider in Malaysia and this will further cement our position in the region."
:ugh::ugh: Does it surprise?

[AEROMEDIC]

Send me one and I'll wear it with pride......!!! :D:D:ok::ok:

[whatdouknow]

600ft lb, what does all that mean?
Sorry can not tell what side of the fence you sit... :eek:

[NAS1801]

Starting a joint MRO in Malaysia, KL, to handle overflow work and customers.Remember the lying scum told us that Avalon was being set up as an overflow facility and would not replace Sydney?

Don't fall for this crap. They have lied before and are lying again.

I am not a LAME, but can I have one of those badges?

[ata 38 32]

dont you remember a different alaea told us not one job would be lost in sydney because of avalon, and that we should support it because it kept jobs in australia, I give avalon 3 years

[Talkwrench]

Regarding the Memorandum of Understanding about this MRO joint venture with MAE, can anyone tell me what a ‘Memorandum of Understanding’ is? Is it a binding contract or is it just a bit of formal way of saying ‘we agree to talk about doing a deal’. Has any due diligence been done? How far along are discussions? Will it really happen? And finally does anyone anticipate this announcement having any effect whatsoever on the EBA negotiation / Protected Industrial Action Ballot outcome?

[Headcone]

It sounds to me as if the death bell is tolling!!!!!!
:sad:

[LME-400]

Remember the lying scum told us that Avalon was being set up as an overflow facility and would not replace Sydney?

Ah yes. I remember that presentation by Keith B Clark very well.

[SCHAIRBUS]

I can't believe the pelicans that are openly admitting that they haven't voted or aren't going to vote.
Come the revolution they should be the first put up against the wall and shot!
Or at least unclassified as AMEs.
Sorry that would be an insult to AMEs.:ugh:

[cementhead]

I can't believe the pelicans that are openly admitting that they haven't voted or aren't going to vote
maybe they want to settle the eba and get on with there lifes.most people have worked out that not to return their paper is the best way for this to fail(less than 50% return)
to vote no and return your vote means that it will get up

[shaftedagain!]

How convenient, just as the Association applies for Protected Industrial Action, Qantas announces a MOU with Malaysian for Heavy Maintenance. More veiled threats from the Company, I think this just goes to show how badly they f**ked up when they closed Sydney Heavy! Well bring it on boys, lets show these buffoons that they can't push us around forever and that the time has come to shore up our EBA Conditions and to distribute a share of those record profits. Can't wait to see their response when half of their fleet is grounded for 4HRS during the busiest period of the year....like to see JHAS get 'em out of that one!!! Enough is enough, don't be weak, stick together and stick it up them like the Perth boys did when they tried to screw with their roster. Remember what Bruce D said "The Company are s**t scared of the pilots and engineers because they can ground the aircraft!".:ok:

[Talkwrench]

I guess we'll find out in about 24 hrs what the majority think and then we wont have to speculate any further.