HyperMerged: Q Engineering LAME EBA VIII/Industrial Strategies

[The Black Panther]

One problem is LAME's don't have a big record of being militant. What is plan B if we don't get 50% of 50%?

I think I will surrender my membership if that happens. No point if less than 50% don't want collective protected action, why belong to a union? That is what unionism is based on.

[rudderless1]

The good will leave at an accelerated rate, the crap will stay as they have no choice. End sum QF will be on a crash spiral. The QF premium ticket price will be lost when the traveling public find there is absolutely nothing that distinguishes them from most other carriers.
Keep the engineers maintain the premium, dispose of the engineers and lose it, net sum to the company a possible quick short term gain for Geoff and co if we bend over but a long term problem with ticket premium when all is revealed.
:ugh:
So why would I help Geoff and co to another huge paycheck!

[Redstone]

American recalls maintenance employees
By Lori Ranson

American Airlines says it plans to recall or hire 200-250 maintenance employees to meet staffing needs in 2008 for an anticipated increase in workloads.

The latest recall follows plans American announced late last week to recall 247 flight attendants to meet projected attrition and staffing levels for next year as well.

The expansion of American’s maintenance workforce is set to start this month, and continue through the first quarter of next year. Staffing levels at line maintenance facilities and at the carrier’s three main overhaul bases in Tulsa, Okla., Fort Worth Texas and Kansas City, Mo will increase.

“While this will be an ongoing process for the next few months, we are very pleased to welcome more people returning to work or starting a career with American,” says carrier senior VP of maintenance and engineering Carmine Romano.

American predicts rising workloads in several different areas including landing gear overhaul on its Boeing 777s/737s, and landing gear overhauls on American Eagle’s Embraer ERJ fleet. The carrier also plans to start heavy checks on General Electric CFM56-7 engines that power its 737-800s. The carrier’s maintenance division is also handling the installation of new lie-flat seats and enhanced inflight entertainment in business class on 767-300s, and first and business class on 777-200s.

Recently American CFO Thomas Horton noted that the carrier’s maintenance, repair and overhaul operation (MRO) was under consideration for divestiture. In addition to handling American’s maintenance, the carrier’s MRO arm also has third-party customers including Allegiant Air. American performs C checks and certain component and landing gear overhauls on Allegiant’s MD-80s.

Earlier this year American’s parent company AMR Corporation said it would invest up to $100 million to grow its third-party maintenance business.

The carrier is currently engaged in labor negotiations with mechanics represented by the Transport Workers Union (TWU). Previously, American management and the TWU set of goal of generating $175 million in third-party maintenance revenue by the end of 2007.



Now there's an idea! Grow the business! Earn money by working on other peoples aeroplanes. No, Qe management have obviously seen this for the waste of time it truly is. The better way to more strategically position your business is to opt out of contracts, retrench most of your work force and sit around navel gazeing blaming each other for the abject failure you have created through lack of vision, disengaging your employees and over use of old style management practice that went out the door last century.

I am so glad we are in such safe hands :yuk:

When this is all over it is not the engineers who will be spoken of with contemptuous voices dripping with venom, the lack of leadership and true vision by all from Cox right down the greasy pole will be weighed measured and found wanting.

Rant over.

[Torqueman]

Hate to even suggest it but, you may as well go for broke now on the salary increases. Make the redundancy payment as big as you can. :\

[Short_Circuit]

Mmmmm ………….. redundancy payment….glurg…glurg….glurg…:}:}:}

(can't wait).

[sickofqf]

Headcone?

to use a quote from finding nemo........

"Hello, my names BRUCE"

??

[blackhander]

All is well.
Cox's EBA message of the day said the Malaysian MRO will just be an expansion of the maintenance business.
Would he lie to you?

[sickofqf]

Would he know if he did...??

after too many years even the liars don't know the lies from the truth !

[sickofqf]

does anyone know if there is some sinister reason the Atwell stays hidden ??

[Bolty McBolt]

SickofQF...I thought same !



"Hello, my names BRUCE

As they used to say on the "Naked Vicar Show"

Bruce Pearse orff Bruce
:ok:

[SUB]

I see it like this, for a 5% pay rise for LAMES what a smart investment for management. At present morale down, attitude down, interest down, enthusiasm down the list goes on. Why is the dispatch reliability down, "A" chks always going late ? If they dont give us any more than 3% this will only get a whole lot worse, then everyone will work by the book and NOTHING will go out on time. Management think about this if we dont get any fair pay rise for our efforts the situation will escalate, we are working our asses off through the day & night due to lack of staff bad planning and docs loading up the work packages. All we do these days is defer the cards to get the a/c out on time (sounds well planned and managed).
Give us a fair deal and this could all turn around. Staff would be greatful and happy, morale , work ethics , attitude, commitment could be restored and you would then have a work force that would put out and a/c dispatch reliability would go up, "A" cks would go out on time and we could become a very efficient product (just like in the past). This is why I call it an investment because things will change.
Keep it the same at (3%). Fine but I can asure you BM, SDO, SIO will never recover.

[lordofthewings]

Even with a 5% rise, nothing will change....My bet is on QF lames folding over and accepting 3%..hope im wrong...:ugh:

[whatdouknow]

^Got to stick together and then that will not happen.

[fordran]

Ballot closed yesterday anyone know if it got up?

[whatdouknow]

I believe the count will not be known until Monday officially, although there is a chance that the numbers may be known by some on the weekend...

Stay tuned, I am sure it will be posted.

[Clipped]

As I 've said on another thread.

Dicko's announcement of the MOU with MAS is a kick in the teeth for all LAMEs. They want flexibilities in the EBA to keep HM work onshore - "this is time critical", next .. joint venture in Malaysia ... WTF.

We will keep going about our working day, doing a fine job as always and in the face of threats and lies, Dicko will get what he wants because WE ARE OUR OWN WORST ENEMIES.

[K9P]

The way I hear it, is that MAS have not enough "skilled workforce" to handle the aircraft they have at the moment. They have 3rd party work sitting on the ground and desperatley need more workers to cover the work they have now.

[fordran]

If they scoure the jungles I'm sure Qantas could trap a few more primates and approve them to certify for qantas aircraft. And I bet we hear DC declaring that this is a top class maintenance provider.

[Headcone]

I hear on the grapevine that Resume.com are contacting past applicants for contract positions.
:sad:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Interim results posted on ALAEA website under forums.

[whatdouknow]

INTERIM RESULTS

ballot papers returned 88%
in favour of action 1066
against 157

Someone must have been at the count...

TAKEN from ALAEA WEBSITE FORUM!!

[MENDAERO]

Notice received at 4pm

1510 voters
1237 envelopes returned
1224 envelopes valid
1066 yes votes
157 no votes
1 informal vote

81.92% voted

86% voted yes

Thats a mandate!:D

[Annulus Filler]

Respect!!!

[section 41]

As one of the 157 who voted NO to the vote. I have now seen clearly the feeling of my fellow members. Make no mistake anyone who has never been in this position before things are going to get nasty. Despite the way in which I excercsed my vote (to which I am entitled as pointed out previously on this site) I now stand fully behind the membership in the upcoming action.

I do believe that the company wants this fight and we will probably lose more than we win but with the MAS announcement I believe the writing is on the wall anyway.

To the memebers of the exectuitive who I know read these posts I say make every bullet count. If we are to have stop work meetings and loose 4 hours pay make sure the meetings are held at the most effective times such as start of dayshift for line maint and end of business day.
For the chaps at Avalon Heavy I suggest when the flight crew arrive to pick up an aircraft especially SA check A/C a four hour delay will cause considerable disruption.

I am sure others can come up with some more novel ideas.

O/T bans will not have the same immediate effect as the above action and I suspect that the first place where the membeship will break ranks will be some of the secondees (hope I am wrong).

My advice would not be for an escalating campaign but rather all out warfare.

If any of you know a "warfie" or a coal miner from the UK go have a chat with them or indeed a pilot who was involved in the domestic pilots dispute.

:{QF management "War is coming reap the whirlwind" :{

:DALAEA members STAND TOGETHER or LOSE EVERYTHING:D

[sickofqf]

Section 41, well said and I not only respect your right to vote any way you choose but I have even greater respect for your willingness to stand with the majority, even though they represent a view you didn't agree with.
It is people like yourself who help make the Union movement a fair and representative body.
The most important thing now is to stand united and don't let ANYTHING make you walk out the gate or stop work.
Stop work meetings are far from the most effective method of disruption.
Doing our job to the best of our ability is the most effective tool in any dispute.
Confused?
Simple, to use a quote, from a man now a BM supervisor, during a dispute many years ago;
"get in that cargo hold and don't come out until you have at least 6 pages of DR&R's filled in"
and that was when it was 4 to a page !!
Oh, and 100% supervision of unlicensed workers ( ie, AME's from other sections or VISA 457 scabs) is another good tool!
As for if you are asked to be a L/H ( ie, higher duties) "sorry, I am feeling slightly fatigued and do not feel comfortable or capable to execute the job safely and efficiently"
ie, never say the word NO. Then they'll have a harder time in the commision when they dock the 4 hours.
As for overtime.....just don't answer the phone, or if they corner you at work...."I'd really love to help but I'm minding the kids" or even "love to but I'm feeling far too tired and it would be very unsafe" :}
Again, don't say "NO" :=
Finally, be prepared to lose money, feel stressed and be prepared to be bullied. If you are bullied, write it down, contact the union, it's illegal. :eek:
It is not going to be easy but we need to do this if we are to have ANY future in this industry.
Fight the good fight fellow LAME's. :ok:
PS. to SP, WV, MW etc, make every punch count, we're depending on you. You've done us proud so far. :ok:
( have the AME union been approached to advise their members against doing extra overtime to help DC et al ?)

PPS. Why the heck do the spaces between the paragraphs kep dissapearing ???

[cementhead]

I hear on the grapevine that Resume.com are contacting past applicants for contract positions.

short time positions?

[domo]

Well done guys BIG result qantas will have to sit up and take notice now.

[section 41]

Thanks for your words of support sickofQF,

However I disagree on the stop work weapon being less effective, while it may not be popular with the travelling public serious flight disruption via country wide stop work meetings will bring things to a head very quickly. The other methods you have suggested will indeed have an impact but it will take time. We need to show the company NOW that we are prepared to lose 4 hrs pay, that we are prepared to bring the network to a standstill, that we will stand together. The other methods suggested will risk petering out as time goes by and in a war of attrition the company will win. So I say tighten your belts and as you say be prepared to lose money.
As for 100% supervision of AME's this is just going to make the LAME's life harder, it will cause frustration among the AME's who's support we need people will get sick of working that way very quickly and things will return to status Quo very quickly.

O/T bans will be difficult in Heavy to implement subversively as you suggest "too tired, looking after kids" etc. within a heavy environment as most O/T is pre-arranged before rather than the phone call the folks on Line tend to get on their days off.

My last point will be to refer to your assertion that 457 visa workers are scabs. At Avalon where I work there are a number of workers under these conditions being treated very poorly by their employer forshaft, to a man all of these people are honest and hard working, if there are plans to bring in "strike breakers" under these visas then by all means label them as what they are SCABS but not the ones already here trying to make a better life for themselves that we hope to support us.

[600ft-lb]

( have the AME union been approached to advise their members against doing extra overtime to help DC et al ?)

Um, its a LAME dispute guys, remember 2001/2002 when the LAME's had no problems at all doing copious overtime during the AME industrial action dispute which included overtime bans, rolling stoppages, higher duties bans etc.

I know you're all a bit excited because its the first time the ALAEA has had a regime in place that has a pair but don't go around pressuring other worker classifications when its a LAME dispute.

[blackhander]

DC's email of the day suggests it's the association pushing a 5% outcome.
Wake up Dave it's the membership calling for a decent outcome.
Nearly 90% of returned votes calling for industrial action suggests you're dealing with an unhappy workforce, constantly being told to do more with less resourses and effectively for less money.
Well done to all who took the time to fill in a ballot, but now the real work has to begin. Stay firm until we get the outcome we deserve.

[whatdouknow]

Good work everone and respect to section 41. Good to see support is coming from all levels!

As for the AME's supporting the LAME's, I doubt that the AWU will feel that charitable, in fact I believe they may try to assist the company.

Just a gut feeling, however from what I hear there is a fair few AME's right behind you.

[Bolty McBolt]

As for the AME's supporting the LAME's, I doubt that the AWU will feel that charitable, in fact I believe they may try to assist the company

Leave the AMEs out of this. I think they should do everything the company asks of them including O/T.
It is not their fight, they had no say in this.... NO VOTE.
Good luck to them.
We have to work from our position use the Maintenance manual and Policy manual to the LAMEs best advantage. Yes the AME have a vested interest especially in Heavy Maintenance but we can't ask them to fight for us when they will receive non of the spoils.... :ok:

[whatdouknow]

I am sorry you feel so objectionable to my post Mr McBolt, but I was purely suggesting that if the AME's did follow the LAME's lead with certain aspects of the IA, then the action would hit harder.

As for doing all the O/T, who will certify for it?
:rolleyes:

[Headcone]

If this is the true result, it is a good one.

I am pleased that the ALAEA has finally had the support of its members.

Do not lose sight of your objective and stand together and fight.

I am very uncertain of the outcome but it could go either way.

Good Luck.

;)

[reflux]

Have to agree with you bolty. It's our stoush so let's enjoy the bunfight!

But you raise a good point wduk re signing. Some one will - there are enough management with valid licences and the odd non alaea member, plus and I'm guessing, maybe the odd non-combatant. Supervision (or level of/lack of) prior to signing may be an issue.
It hasn't got there yet and may yet be headed off at the pass, but close to ninety percent is certainly an alarm call for any one listening that not every one in paradise is happy.

[PIOT Bord]

Great Result!!! Wonder if the company has worked out that engineering management is so pathetic yet?

I know of 2 guys who voted no. Not because they agreed with the company's position, but they fear where this is headed. Both respect the vote result and will be doing their bit to support the action. So those that will be supporting the action will be greater than the 86% that voted yes.

Heard one duty manager (don't know how he voted) state " Now the company might realize how strong the feeling is out there"

[The Black Panther]

The only concern is Qantas is already on a "LAME destroying mission" anyway.

We have basically given them power to stand people down and discuss later, if they have a backup plan to keep the planes flying that is. We need to be very vigilant with the aircraft we service and note all maintenance concerns immediately, source only the approved tooling and use only approved data as we have always done and will continue to do. We know the weaknesses of the system of maintenance and we know the legal methods to ensure the aircraft remain serviceable and safe.

Do not be pressured and contact your union rep when things get uncomfortable. Don't do anything unlawful!

The public will be our friends, tell all your family and friends over the Christmas season about this disgusting Gordon Gecko mentality we have in charge of our iconic Australian carrier. They will remember them as the unbiased management ....... "You have to mental not to accept this offer"

I am sure the first 'off base' stop-work meeting will see a 'lockout' threat emerge. I don't think Dixon will let us have an easy path to 5%. Remember his GOD is money and his disciples are the mega-shareholders. He won't let the motherload out of his office without a fight. As he has stated before employees and customers are not his concern.

It will be a very interesting January and I am sure the war lords are planning strategies as we enjoy the lavishes of the Christmas spread put on by our employer.

The only outcome should we reach the 16th January without a negotiated result is a very long time of bad relationship between LAME's and management that won't heal overnight. In almost all industrial event such as this the employer comes out trumps. Time to unite and be strong lads. Await instructions from central command.:eek:

[acslame]

Just Got A Call From A Ex Heavy Mate In Syd Who Has
Been Called Tonight From Resume.com Offering Him
Big Dollars (100k For 6 Months) To Work On Qf Aircraft In Syd.
Looks Like Qf Trying To Recruit A Strike Breaker Pool
For The Record He Told Them To Jam It.
Dc Is Getting Serious Eh!!!!
Where Is That Copy Of Bastard Boys?
Ps
Respect To Section 41

[whatdouknow]

acslame, good heads up, wonderful!

so the time is close...

[Bolty McBolt]

I am sorry you feel so objectionable to my post Mr McBolt, but I was purely suggesting that if the AME's did follow the LAME's lead with certain aspects of the IA, then the action would hit harder.


No need to be sorry. It takes much more than that to offend. Be cool :ok:
Like most LAMEs most I learned at tafe was how to dish out and take a sledge.
I was just suggesting a level headed approach. As I did not expect members of another union to fight my battles and I certainly don't want see people harassed over my cause...
I know vilification is a game we can all play but we may need all the friends and allies we can keep by the end of this.

[NAS1801]

As for the AME's supporting the LAME's, I doubt that the AWU will feel that charitable

lets cut the inter-union bashing NOW.

As a non LAME, I know that now, more than ever, we all need to be united. Why would the AWU support the company against the LAMEs, when the outcomes gained through the action taken by the LAMEs is going to flow on to AWU members anyway???

I am not a member of either of the above mentioned unions however, I know that the members of my AME union are fully supportive of the LAME's actions. We will follow the directions of the ALAEA members on our crews at all times during the PIA.

We MUST all remain united.

[whatdouknow]

Wasn't inter-union bashing that I was suggesting, merely an opinion!
It is pleasing to hear that a least a few of the parties support the cause.
Yes I agree we 'all' must follow the LAME's in this dispute, just for the cause.

I just hope that happens and as Mr McBolt said we don't expect the same level of fight, just overall support.

Respect to 'We must remain united'

[sickofqf]

If ex SYD heavy guys come back as scabs they are truly morons !
Why on earth would they come back and help the same half-wit management team that shafted them ??
$100k for 6 months.....and all we want is a piddly 2% extra......sheesh.
In reality this shows you it's NOT about the money, they want those two evil clauses kept in so they can truly screw us to the wall.
For us it's also not really about the money, it's about trying to show that DC and his minions have ruined, in under 10 years, the world's greatest aircraft maintenance orgaisation which took 75 years to get to where it was.
Sadly there will be an extra roo on a hillside if this slide cengineered by GD and DC is allowed to continue.
As expected, the nations media outlets are just trotting out the QF line, all holidays to be disrupted...evil, evil, greedy engineers........
it's going to be tough boys, fortunately the biggest cards in our hand are a Labor government and a worldwide shortage of Aircraft Engineers.

[LME-400]

If ex SYD heavy guys come back as scabs they are truly morons !

Hmm... and if we don't come back are we just 'suspected' morons?

I don't see any posts as yet where ex-heavy people are coming back as SCABS.

[sickofqf]

Hmm... and if we don't come back are we just 'suspected' morons?
No, that's not what was meant and I'm sure you know that! You are still part of our LAME family. Anyway, from what I hear most if not all of you are much happier in your new professions ?
Would you argue the point that any takers would be morons though ?
I don't see any posts as yet where ex-heavy people are coming back as SCABS.
Are you expecting someone to post "Hi, mine names Fred Nergs and I'm planning on scabbing" seriously !
Wish QF would pay me $100k for every six months :ugh:

[Long Bay Mauler]

As the owner of a certain media organisation was until only recently a board member,don't expect any impartiality when it comes to truthful reporting of what the ALAEA log of claims is from his news/print outlets.

I just hope that the public realise that we arent asking for a huge wage increase in the proportions that management dole out for themselves,and that we are asking for 5%,and that is only for the life of the agreement.

[The Mr Fixit]

WoW OMFG :eek:

For once in my lifetime, We stand united

85% in favour of IA

To the El Pres, Fed Sec and the EBA team,
Well done you have judged your members well and have found QF management wanting badly. :D

To my fellow MEMBERS of the ALAEA I'm so proud of all of you, not in thirty years have I seen such determination and resilience KEEP IT UP :ok:

Time to pay the ferryman DC and we will only take GOLD and you can shove the XPT and Def of Employee where the sun don't shine. :mad:

WE WILL NOT BE BULLIED ANY LONGER :E

[sickofqf]

If you want an idea of where DC etc get their ideas and tactics......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qajBfEdzoE&feature=related

[QF MAINT OUTSOURCED]

Firstly who gives a sh!t what the media report,secondly i too got this phone call to come in for a interview for the 100k for 6 months,i will be going in for the interview,but if it is for the Rat i to will be telling them to shove it, i have no interest in working for Qantas ever again at any price ,nor do i wish to scab even though our LAME brothers in other deparments did nothing when we got the arse,and yes i have left the industry and i couldn't be happier:)

[No1inparticular]

Fed Sec of ALAEA How do you plan on getting the public on your unions side? As much as yourself and the team may be doing what is best for your members what about the average people of australia? Industrial Action is a good threat to the comapny but as it's been stated there is on 1,700 LAME's which is a massive amount but what about the millions of people throughout Aus and the world for that matter who travel with QF. Obviously you need your members on your side in which you have proven but the general public pose a lot higher threat as they are the ones that put the money into the company i think you could develop this a lot further. If you can scare Qntas with somethng to show that the public are just as worked up about this as your members i think you could this over with a lot quicker. My suggestion information: things such as stats on how much qantas have earnt and how much has gone into engineering (one of teh most important parts of this business).

I know it may be harsh but the public won't give a sh1t about anything if it means tehy may have delayed flights you and your union will need something to let tjhem understand they are a lot quicker to judge the people screwing up their time over the people in the wrong.

[company_spy]

Well we can now see what we're dealing with. A bunch of people who would pay squillions on a short term fix. The amount of cash that would be spent on a six month venture I'm almost certain would be more than a 5% pay rise. I reckon that the guys who are asked to do this jolly accept the offer and come here for 6 months day care. Take the 100k and don't do a thing for it!!!!!! This is your chance to get back at them.

[MENDAERO]

our LAME brothers in other deparments did nothing when we got the arse

I have heard this line many times, but never have I heard what they were supposed to do. I do however remember many people taking VR to minimise and almost stop any CR, these people did this for their own reasons, yes, but it did help a lot of engineers facing CR keep their jobs. So when you say nothing, I disagree.

but if it is for the Rat i to will be telling them to shove it

I do however thank you for what ever you can do to help our EBA claim's.
I just wish those Resume.com ad's awhile ago were to restart H245 for SA checks as should have happened originally. A perfectly good hangar going to waste.

Perhaps the Union and QE should take another look at H245, I'm sure it could be started up again through BM ACS without much trouble.

Anyway back to the EBA:)

[MENDAERO]

No1inparticular

It would be nice to get the public on our side, but I don't know if the Association has the resources to get them to care.

When it comes to inconveniencing the traveling public, they will be quick to forget. We shouldn't need to worry about what our IA dose to them, but to QF's bottom line.

Waiting till after xmas is an act in good faith, which I believe is largely unheard, by the public.

Start Action over xmas, now that the company thinks we aren't going to and we will be heard

Shock the public, then get them onside once they are listening!:ok:

[check1-2]

Qantas engineers set to strike...great timing. (http://www.vpmag.com/yssy/viewtopic.php?t=20754&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=)


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xxxxxxProlific MemberJoined: 23 Feb 2000Posts: 2473Location: xxxx
(http://www.vpmag.com/yssy/viewtopic.php?p=162184#162184)Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: Qantas engineers set to strike...great timing.
(http://www.vpmag.com/yssy/posting.php?mode=quote&p=162184)

Quote:
Engineers strike to disrupt new year holidays

December 22, 2007 01:46am

INDUSTRIAL action planned by about 1700 Qantas engineers could throw new year holiday plans into disarray for thousands of Australian travellers.

The strike, that could be the biggest disruption to air travel in Australia since a 1989 pilots' strike, follows a breakdown in enterprise bargaining agreements.

"We most certainly will be taking action from January 9," Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association federal secretary, Steve Purvinas told Fairfax newspapers.

Some 87 per cent of members voted for the industrial action which is likely to take the form of four-hour stoppages, making it impossible for Qantas to check its 213 aircraft without causing delays.

A Qantas spokesman admitted the action could seriously affect its operations, but said the airline was open to "finding a solution".

Mr Purvinas said he thought it would be difficult for Qantas to find replacement workers within the planned strike timeframe.

Of course, their EBA negotiations just happened to co-incide with the busiest travelling time of the year. How convenient.
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xxxSenior MemberJoined: 23 Jun 2002
(http://www.vpmag.com/yssy/viewtopic.php?p=162209#162209)Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:55 am Post subject:
(http://www.vpmag.com/yssy/posting.php?mode=quote&p=162209)

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Joe Publics' perception...
Found on another aviation forum, the names have been changed to protect the ill-informed...

[No1inparticular]

I don't know about that I know for one my family are always quick to judge who ever causes them the inconvience lol. I see the action will be starting from the 9th is this correct? I reckon should be some kind of a debate set up one if the ALAEA EBA Reps Vs David be nice to see. from his previous interviews seems he doesn't come prepared.

Also what is this new MRO going to mean? Avalon gone? Brisbane H/M?

I used to think the world of qantas i am completely Aussie and it's a shame that really seemed Australian has turned out to be nothing but a complete money maker. They make enough why do they have to turn around and be a sweat shop wanna-be.

I am not a LAME but do have close relations with some and the stuff that they go through is just crap.

Which ever way the union go i know that myself and the LAME's i know are onside and will do whatever we minority can to help.

I think people need to realise that the ALAEA and all unions for that matter are not only fighting for their own rights as workers but the futrue generations. I'm not sure if Mr Cox has any children but I would like to know how he would feel knowing that his family was getting ripped off by the company that is meant to be our countries sprit.

I no longer would like to call qf the sprit of aus, maybe VB can be promoted.

[numbskull]

Well done guys.

Give it to em!!

I too was contacted by Resume.com. I was thinking of doing what company spy suggested - Take their money for six months and pretend to be trying my hardest!! At the very least I think I'll string them along for as long as I can.

Don't try and win with a knockout blow. If you want to win you need to fight smart. Go 18 rounds and you'll win with the sheer number of body blows delivered rather than a single knockout punch.

The beauty of it all is that you can deliver these body blows simply by following Management policy and the Maintenance manual!!

[Short_Circuit]

What an opportunity for you Ex-Syd heavy guys to get your own back. Take the job, work till the bird is stripped, leave with your 75K and leave a smoking hole. Ask for more money to put it back together again.
Pure cream! :ok::ok::ok:

PS
It would be nice to see some life back in 245.

[NAS1801]

It is beyond belief that Qantas thinks they can use the disgruntled and f*#ked over ex Sydney workforce as "strike breakers"

Cox, you burnt your bridges with these fellows. They aint coming back! To believe otherwise shows that you have no sense of reality.

[sickofqf]

Cox can try to bring in as many as he likes....how's he going to find enough people with still-valid 747 licences?

Thus, someone will have to sign for them.............get the idea......???

and even if he does.....how the heck is he going to get their details into eQ ??? I can't even log into the damn system with the right password !!!

[acslame]

Gents,
Whatever way you look at it the resume.com offer
is pure strikebreaking .
That is all.
They are relying on LAME's not caring about anyone else
except themselves. You will be used to break the assn
and the membership. You will be seen buy your old workmates
and it wont be a warm reception.
Now you may say that it serves the ACS boys right for not
backing up the heavy guys when they got made redundant,
however the real blame lay with the old executive and
there failure to act until it was way to late.
Don't take your anger out on the people who
are still there and taking the fight up to the company

This is not a school yard fight.
This will be the real deal and whatever comes of it, there
will be pain on both sides.
If you are worried about losing 4 hrs pay then I suggest you go
away and have a real hard think about what is going on.
4hrs is the least of your problems.

You are making a stand for your job
The whole of engineering is so rundown that we really are at a crisis
point. If you don't see a similarity to what happened to heavy then
I suggest you open you eyes.
We have to get these clauses dropped.
If they want to set up a joint MRO with MAS then they
will do regardless.
You don't just sign a MRU overnight because your workforce
voted to take industrial action do you.
THEY ARE PLANNING IT ANYWAY! these things take a load of planning
and to announce it now just shows that it has been in the
pipeline for months.
Everything this management do is designed to break us,
erode pay, conditions and create disharmony.

Tools they will use on us.
They will lie (surprise, surprise )
They will threaten you with dockings and being stood down,
some legal, some not.
They will threaten to send work offshore, they already do!
They will threaten to give the 330/787/380 work away!
Bottom line is QF engineering will do whatever they want to
supposedly save a buck!
They are liars and cheats
They are the ones who created this mess.
All we did is whatever they told us to, and look at the
state of things now.
QF engineering is getting close to being a bloody disaster by the day.
If you think its bad now, Imagine the cluster f**k its going to be soon.
So whatever you do, don't come in as a strike breaker.
Let us fight these clowns before it is too late !!!!!!!!

[NAS1801]

Beer for acslame!

[company_spy]

dc said if its not signed up by feb then the A330 will stay offshore.what a bunch of lies,the plan for mas was already in the pipe and being well and truly smoked.yes were fighting over the eba ,but so much more .until the third floor is stripped and gd himself comes and begs forgiveness forget a yes vote anytime soon.

[Millet Fanger]

Getting the public on side is very important. GD and DC have the resources of the whole of Qantas at there disposal. It is the public and the press who will put pressure on management.

Hire some spin doctors to advise, pay for some advertising. Keep the message short and sweet.

LAME's payrise for last two years = 0%

Geoff Dixon's payrise this year = 27%

Geoff Dixon's bonus for privatising Qantas = $60 million

Inflation for last two years = 6.3%

Qantas's record profit this year = $1 Billion

WHO DO YOU THINK IS BEING REASONABLE?

[company_spy]

the alaea should also use the safety issue whilst the malaysian mou is on the board .the flying public deserve to know exactly what is happening to their winged chariots .

[wingers]

the 100k for 6 months is if correct is pretty attractive, i had a call from a mate in NZ apparently they are queuing up over there, or so he says , but you never know

[company_spy]

87% in any ballot is not suprising, it is astonishing! It is the purist exclamation of unity. The 13% whom voted NO should now feel secure to come to the front line. Courage is now something we all share. When the scaremongers tout the companies retaliatory plans, ask but one question of yourself. Are they sustainable? The answer quite simply is 'go fark yourself'. This current management are fast making the sequel to 'Bye Bye Johnny'. Big mouths, no ears, void of social conscience, and disrespecting those that matter. Now they have picked this fight over 2%, priorities must be weighed. The fact's are that the DIFFERENCE between what 1700 workers are asking for, and what the company has offered, is considerably less than the CEO on QF's board takes in one year with bolt on's. That's right, it's pocket change! Get your company annual statements out, then multiply 1700 by an average of $85k and get 2% of that. Anybody who gives the king of the castle, JD, any credit of control in this dispute are misinformed. Watch the share price, it's our WORM. Rigged? The pot calling the kettle black. Victory will be delivered when the 'big brother' CEO's of the Investment firms with money in Qantas come a calling. The question will be 'how much do they want'. A swift slap behind the earhole will be heard for miles as the egotistical CEO is pulled into line. Do the figures again! Share price slips 40cents and big brother has 40million shares. An unnecessary brawl. Big brother's portfolio just slipped $16m. How much were they asking for again! If the egotistic CEO turns out to be manic and doesn't 'fix it' two things happen. They sell or he resigns. GD, stash your dreams of being the next Chris Corrigan, leave that for the next liberal government. Deflate your chest and get back to reality. Your shareholder's will not tolerate you stoking your ego with their money. Remember, this is Qantas. Bigger than one man's ego! Qantas' future is at all our heart's. Now go out their and condition your shareholders to understand that Aircraft Maint is expensive! We will get on with the job of ensuring the travelling public's safety. Cheers Merry Christmas

[wingers]

Apparently the company is not Resume.com but www.resumedomain.com (http://www.resumedomain.com)

[Headcone]

If I was an ex Sydney Heavy Maintenance guy I would come back for $100,000.00 for six months just to shove it up those that did not support them when they were retrenched.

I could smile at them at the picket line as I went to work to earn my big bucks, not to mention that I already have my redundancy payment and have probably paid off my mortgage.

:D

[wingers]

We need a clear strategy www.resumedomain.com (http://www.resumedomain.com) have been advertising since early november, as per their website and i also hear that QLD and VIC people have been called

[chemical alli]

headcone, how did the guys in other line stations ie bne,mel per drw etc not support the heavy guys ,a redline was ruled through 245 without any consultation and the alaea fought hard to save the jobs they could albeit at other line guys expense.along with half of the 245 guys who sat on their ass for two months took the cash and were happy to do so.most of these distinguished engineers have gone on to a life outside and are happy.some have gone to avalon or bne heavy as a means to keep their jobs.if we take your advice lets shut up shop rite now destroy aviation in australia and any future for ame,s or lames. come back walk the line i for one would be happy to see some of the guys return and take the cash,as a xmas bonus for a career cut well and truly short.
build a bridge of trust and get over yourself you self centred living in the past egophobe.

[HotDog]

Not going to harp on about spelling, punctuation , capitals but pray tell, what is an egophobe?:confused:

[chemical alli]

ego is not a dirty word .
phobe,fear of ones fear
spell this

[company_spy]

Headcone and like minded individuals, listen up. Come in,take the money. If short term gain is your agenda, by all means do what you got to do. But the long memories shall endure. Taken a contract out lately out in the big world? Not so big is it. Seems to be QF guys everywhere you go. Weigh it up. Think long and hard. If the dollar signs are still flashing and your conscience isn't causing you any discomfort, do what you have to do. I shall look forward to the beer we have to congratulate you. Go get em' tiger!

[No1inparticular]

Do what you got to do, just don't try and jepodise the current eba. I wasn't around in the time of the Syd HM closure and don't know what happened but if you have been there and know what it feels like regardless why would you have no care in the world for the current LAME's? By not sticking by them isn't that just hypocritical? Punishing others for what past lame's may have done? And altough i do not know the full story i do know that many of the lame that weren't hm did try with that. Like i said you do have to do whatever to get you by but don't take others down just because your living in a past world. Use some empathy, what is being said about well you guys didn't stick by us why should we stick by you that's schoolyard crap and you guys have to be extremely intelligent to do what you do as a profession don't bring the image of lame's down.

[wingers]

Agree totally NO1. we need to stick together, i am ready for the fight , from what i have heard about the readiness of our foe i am hoefull that we all stick solid, we might slaughter the kiwis in criket , but dont want to loose our jobs to them, i hear some of them have applied for leave without pay from current jobs, its gonna get tough so lets all dig in, the time has comer.

[NAS1801]

Mite have known the kiwis would come running to jeopardise us! Surprise surprise!!!

As far as a publicity campaign goes, I think the ALAEA should not focus on money at all. The general public would be offside immediately thinking the whole PIA campaign is about money.

The publicity campaign should focus on how Qantas is slowly jeopardising its reputation for safety. The outsourcing of maintenance to questionable MROs, the increased pressure on staff due to excessive workload (due to lack of staff) etc etc.

Get Joe public questioning Qantas's motives......not the engineers motives!

[employes perspective]

the 100k for 6 months is if correct is pretty attractive, i had a call from a mate in NZ apparently they are queuing up over there, or so he says , but you never know



Kiwi's coming over here as scabs what a surprise,there's an ANZAC sprite for you,perhaps we can return the favor in the not to distant future

[opalops]

From a EX SYD HVY LAME No amount of money could entice me back to be a strike breaker, You guys are #1 in my book:D

[numbskull]

For God's sake guys FIGHT SMART. Fight with your head not your heart!
At 100k for 6 months , the strikebreakers will surely come!!
It would be much better for you guys still employed at the Rat if the "strikebreakers" were ex heavy guys sympathetic to the fight and unconcerned about delays.
I don't know what the ALAEA strategy is but you can be sure that QF will come down hard on you otherwise it will open the floodgates company wide. I wouldn't be expecting too much help from the labour federal government either. They'll be looking to flex their muscles and show the public how they can keep the unions under control.
My bet is that after 1 or 2 four hr stop work meetings they'll lock you out and play hard ball. They'll be able to keep the show going to some extent with Jetstar and non union labour. Then they'll ask the new Kevin Rudd to intervene and sort you out.
Personally I don't think that the carrying out the 4 hr stop work meetings and associated disruption will achieve the result.It will only
1) Give QF a reason to lock you out.
2) Alienate the ALAEA from the general public.
3) Give the New labour Government an opportunity to flex their muscles regading the unions.
Hit QF where it hurts.
1) Despatch reliability- Keep doing what your doing (No higher duties, OT etc). There should be an unofficial goal amongst members to drive the despatch reliability down to 50%. That is your new KPI. Lets see how long they can handle that pain for.
2) Forward Bookings - Highly publicise your stop work meetings but cancel them at the last minute. This way you don't get the public too offside, don't give QF a chance to lock you out and don't give the government a chance to intervene on behalf of their mates (you know who that is and its not YOU).
People are going to have to decide if they are really part of the ALAEA. Its the Heroes amongst you that are your worst enemy!! You need to bring them under control or excommunicate them.
Good Luck!!

[whatdouknow]

Mr numbskull, there is some merit in what you say.

Being accurate and particular at the specifics of the job is possibly just as unsettling to the company. Use the manual the way it should have been used.

:rolleyes:

[rudderless1]

A measly $100 000 for six months, I bet you arse is theirs for that period as well!
So is it really that good for unlimited call ins and hours and then tax.
Even if you were a mercenary how does it compare to Malaysia on contract etc, little tax and you can still have a conscience by not f***ing over fair and reasonable claim against a bunch of self serving greedy pigs.
For F sake we want 5% not the bloody world!
Shortsightedness is the weakness of the unintelligent. Think beyond the six months, think is it unreasonable, think not just of your own future even if you can handle being a scab but what damage you may be doing to your friends and families future work!:ouch::=

[The Mr Fixit]

The Kiwi version of the ALAEA has told both QF and our ALAEA that NONE of their members will be scabbing in Aus.

ALL I CAN SAY IS GOD HELP THOSE THAT DO

because this little black duck will not be treading lightly, you fk up on my watch and I'll bury them and their licence

[QF MAINT OUTSOURCED]

where will these scubs stand in using their KIWI licenses in Aust

[sickofqf]

Headcone, maybe you aren't Bruce, just some other deluded fool.

Pull your head in. We supported you as much as our corrupt union of the time would allow us. If we had done any form of industrial action we would be out there with you right now as our 'union' failed to even approach the IR commision with regard to any form of industrial action.

Get your facts straight, and if you come in and SCAB, which is exactly what you'll be doing, you will find $100k will not be close to enough for what you will endure.

If you are looking for someone to throw blame at, look at your hero mates from HM who helped set up the 'overflow' facility. the writing was on the wall the moment Avalon opened. We were discussing the demise of SydHM all around the country 3 years before it happened, you just couldn't see past your blinkers !

And if you are considering scabbing go read a few stories from the british miners strike and the australian dock dispute about what happened to scabs after the dispute ended....it ain't pretty......families broke up over the stress !!

$100k to risk your family life......not worth it !

Besides, if you need money, go work for J* or VB, they pay way more than QF and it'll last for years !!

[Annulus Filler]

Qantas management are struggling to managed the blokes they have got, let alone any newcomers. Call their bluff I say.

[sickofqf]

"My bet is that after 1 or 2 four hr stop work meetings they'll lock you out and play hard ball."

BIG NOTE TO MR PURVINAS......
Don't be surprised if they do it after 1 stop work. Stop work meetings will play into their hands. Please DON'T use them....use DR&R's as our main weapon. We can win this with minimal financial pain if we are strong. Given current levels of debt, if we get locked out people will cave within days and find themselves on AWA's if they want their jobs back.

By all means schedule meetings....then cancel them. They will probably pull out the pilot's strike handbook and given ANY excuse we will all be out the gate......doubt me.....then why are the press ALREADY comparing the impact to the pilot's strike ?

Legally sit the planes on the deck with a mountain of defects. If we are smart we could have half the fleet stuck around australia in days given their current condition.

OH, and don't forget the 5S strategies.......correct me if I'm wrong as I am known to be forgetful.....
...if it's an A check make sure you do a D check inspection........or something like that.......

Our motto for this PIA should be "Inside the gate we WILL win, outside the gate we HAVE lost"

[sickofqf]

Here's an idea....

get your selves to an internet cafe and start filling in this page at least a hundred times........and try to make it believable...........give them a moountain of work to try and find real candidates.....

http://www.resumedomain.com/displayad.asp?adcode=C8278

[wingers]

Good idea sickofqf , apparently they are saying that their client is not QANTAS, given they have started in november i just hope that we have a clear plan of Action , as someone said earlier we do not want to be locked out and...... you can bet your bottom dollar that if we are then it could be all over

[FMU]

Just “take 5” and think about this.
If QF want to get some casual LAMEs in to take up the extra work that the OT bans would cause, where are these guys going to come from? The most likely source is ex Qantas HM LAMEs. But haven’t these guys moved on and got new lives and new careers? So I suggest that the few they do attract would not be sufficient to make any sizable impact.
I’m reading on this site that the Kiwis are coming. Well if that is true they sure won’t be certifying anything. They would all have to go through the tech school for some CAR214 training first to cover ANZ/QF differences. Then there is QF docs and procs, access to IMSP, ASIC passes, just to name a few hurdles. No A330 LAMEs in NZ! Or ZX series 767. B744ER- no way.

I’m also reading here about 4 hr stop work meetings. As another poster said, if you are going to have them then make ‘em count.

But most importantly, don’t forget what this is all about. There is a lot of pent up frustration amongst the QF LAMEs over what is perceived to be the eroding of QF engineering by M and DC. But the justification for this up coming industrial action is to advance the EBA negotiations. Stay focused on the EBA issues- the part time and casual employment clauses that will have a huge impact on the future of employment, the Heavy Maint flexibility clauses, the XPT clause, the quotas, and of course the 3%. But don’t get dragged in to the other emotional issues- these will only cloud the industrial action.

We are our own worst enemies. We must maintain a united front and stay focused on the EBA. Do not be swayed by management spin.

[sickofqf]

No their client is probably someone else,

like Atwell Engineering or Big Kev's Maintenance Manpower Supply......get the idea !! Simply a front who can go broke immediatly the dispute is over and not pay the rest of the contract.

Who the heck else would pay $100k for 6 months.......??

I know if I was daft enough to want to scab, I'd be demanding the cash up-front...........I can see the headline now.....

"Strike Breaking Employment Agency goes bankrupt, scabs owed thousands"

Not THAT would make me chuckle.........

[FMU]

SickofQF, couldn't agree more! No point in being locked out. The best tool we have is the power of the pen. Always refer to the AMM. Make sure those EAs are correct. Read the EPPM and make sure you are using the correct procedures. Stop being heroes and just do your job as Qantas wants- by the book and safely. Remember- Safety before Schedule. Take 5. Stop and do a Lap!!

[wingers]

I hope you are right sicofqf , but if they haver blokes already signed say in November or December they would be already getting paid , wishfully thinking though

[The Mr Fixit]

Just for the uninitiated

STOP WORK MEETINGS TAKE PLACE ON BASE

NO ONE WILL BE LOCKED OUT GIRLS

It takes 6 times more resources to carry a wounded soldier than a dead one (Viet Cong main principle)

TAKE 5

DO A LAP

Then PUT A CAP IN HIS A$$

[sickofqf]

Another motto......

The Policy Manual is YOUR friend.

Adhere to it like really sticky glue......it's amazing how little you can do if you abide by it to the letter......:ok:

And of course, at the start of EVERY shift you must be aware of any changes to it, check your emails for CTS etc, etc, etc.:E

For example, all part removals must be certified, left hand DRR snag isn't enough.....all steps of maintenance must be signed for....not like the traditionally way it has been done...........it's in the Policy manual :ok:

[section 41]

Good advice FMU,

all LAMES should make themselves familiar with the QEPM. 3-10-25 covers certification. Suggest anyone supervising specialist maintenance such as composites or the like take a particular interest in this work, it may take a very long time for a LAME who is unfamiliar with these processes to satisfy himself and you may have to ask a lot of questions to satisfy yourself. I do not believe that there will be many takers for scab positions particularly ex HM LAMEs. If we do have to deal with theese people then again the internal procedures within QE such as Form 500 and Cross reports also CAIR or its sucessor within CASA could be used to deal with any and all transgressions these people who will be unfamiliar with the way in which we work may make particularly if there is no motivation for the current staff to show these people the error of their ways and watch their backs.

I still believe that the stop work meetings will be the most effective weapon despite some of the concerns raised by other posters.

[Syd eng]

Are the Stop Work meetings actually planned?
I was of the understanding they will only be called if a member is stood down or the like for no longer carrying out a secondment/overtime or higher duty.

[Long Bay Mauler]

As other posters here have rightly said,ALWAYS stick with the PPM,and all the other policies and safety notices as published by the company.

Always check your Lotus notes prior to certifying at the start of EVERY shift,because you never know when there has been an amendment to a procedure.Always check the validity of the Minor Maint Manuals,as these too change often,and can be amended between shifts and your days off.

Always,at the start of your shift,always remember SAFETY first.Always make sure your personal safety is never compormised.Like me,you should always do a walk around of ANY vehicle that you drive airside.You never know who has been in it before you,and what unsuspecting damage they may have done to it and not reported.So take my advice,and do a quick 5 min walk around check of the vehicle,as you would of any aircraft,and make sure your personal safety is assured before driving to the toolcrib,credo,etc.....

You may well be the first hole in the cheese,so take all the EXTRA precautions you need in these stressful times.If when you are out on a job,and you feel that your mind is wandering because you keep thinking about possible lockouts,lost wages,strikebreaking workforces lurking outside the gate,etc.....then as my mate Murray would say,"Take five",and calm yourself down,and get your mind focussed and back on the job.This way,it may take a few minutes longer to complete your inspection,but you will go home fully satisfied that you have done the right thing by the company and not compromised the SAFETY of any aircraft,passengers or your work colleagues.

Really all this advise is common sense,and as all engineers know,we are full of it........lol

Merry Xmas to all,and don't think too much about all this until New Years.

Best Wishes to all posters:ok:

[The masked goatrider]

Qantas engineers hold off strike Font Size: Decrease Increase Print Page: Print December 23, 2007
A STRIKE of more than 1,500 Qantas engineers will remain in the wings until the new year, with the airline today offering an olive branch to the technicians' union.

More than 1,700 aircraft engineers will walk off the job on January 9 in protest against growing casualisation of the workforce and erosion of working conditions.

Almost 90 per cent of members from the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA) voted for the action following the breakdown of enterprise negotiations with the airline.
It would represent the largest disruption to the nation's air travel since the 1989 pilots' strike, and threatens holidaying plans for thousands.

Tensions again mounted between the two sides today, with informal talk of bringing the action closer to Christmas - traditionally the busiest time for Australia's airlines.

ALAEA federal secretary Steve Purvinas said the engineers were loath to disrupt Christmas and new year travel, but strike action could go ahead if Qantas took hostile action.

"ALAEA won't be acting before January 9," Mr Purvinas said.

"The only possibility (of that) would be if Qantas decides to start locking out employees.

"We don't want to disrupt the holiday or Christmas and new year and hopefully we can have meaningful discussions with the airline."

A lock-out - where the airline sends employees home without pay until further notice, and replaces them with casual or other workers - was not in Qantas's interests, Mr Purvinas said.

Qantas executive general manager engineering David Cox dismissed the suggestion.

"We are not going to do that,'' he said.

Executive general manager people Kevin Brown said Qantas remained committed to finding a solution to the issue.

"There are no plans for a lock-out at this stage,'' Mr Brown said.

"We will resume negotiations with the union on January 4."

[Anulus Filler]

There will be no strikes!! My personal opinion is that there are going to be a lot of LAMES sick on the same day. These things tend to happen when people get stressed out about things. :ok:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

There will be no strikes!! My personal opinion is that there are going to be a lot of LAMES sick on the same day. These things tend to happen when people get stressed out about things.
Oh yes.. The public in the terminals will fall for that chestnut. You are a genius! :rolleyes:
I wouldn't be expecting too much help from the labour federal government either. They'll be looking to flex their muscles and show the public how they can keep the unions under control.

I thought Labor was going to be your saviour.
You strike (or "fall sick all on one day" ) - you hurt innocent people. You do that and you lose support. Not to mention the fact you should personally take the blame for what happens to the people you effect.
:=

[AEROMEDIC]

That's "putting the cart before the horse". We haven't got there yet and hopefully won't.
It's important to realise that there are plenty of options that strain the system appropriately before considering strike action.
Best to leave that one alone for now. :sad:

[sickofqf]

Exactly right,

That would get the public offside real quick.

If Joe/Joanne public's flight is late because the engineers are making sure his/her aircraft is safe for flight they won't hate us quite as much !!

My gut feeling is someone such as John Vincent will take DC to one side and explain that his 'customer' will take a very dim view of not having half it's fleet available for use and then DC will come up with some sort of sweetener to save his own skin.

having said that, I can't see DC or MH etc surviving much past this dispute. It simply should never have gotten this far....

We WILL very likely NOT get more than 3%.....but we might get lots of other bonuses, which are all pointless unless those two clauses are removed!

[No1inparticular]

if they had agreed to the 5% increase in the first place would have they saved money by now? I mean with the amoount of wages they have had to waste by sending all the negociators to meetings wouldn't that have made up for the 2% difference

Maybe someone should let DC think about that one

[sickofqf]

So much for the ABC's alledged left wing bias.........they are as bad as all the rest of the "independant media"

Strike may affect holiday travel, Qantas warns
Posted Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:38pm AEDT
Updated Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:02pm AEDT
If the strike goes ahead, Qantas says its domestic services may be impacted. (ABC News)
Qantas passengers could face disruption to services over the holiday period because of a strike by engineers.

Members of the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association have voted to take industrial action after talks on the enterprise bargaining agreement broke down.

Qantas's executive general manager of human resources, Kevin Brown, says the door remains open to find a solution, but contingency plans will be put in place.

"We would attempt to maintain all of our international operations and therefore the impact would be more around our domestic network," he said.
"However, that is still some time off for us. Their action wouldn't commence until the 9th of January and it will depend on what they choose to do.
"We will be taking some steps [which] we'll announce in the course of the next week to ensure that our passengers can fly when they want."

Mr Brown says Qantas's response depends on what action the engineers decide to take.

"The door remains open at Qantas to try and find a solution to our industrial negotiations with them and to reach agreement with the union," he said.
"We've been in endless and numerous discussions in the course of the last year ... but of course it requires the goodwill of the union to participate in that.

"At this stage they've said they're going to take action no matter what."


Good to see Kevin Brown lying through his teeth as usual. What a di#k.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

strain the system appropriately
If "straining the system" results in an effect on the customer then the same result stands.
You harm innocent people then you lose, and should be rightfully blamed for the financial expense imposed on others in society.

[No1inparticular]

it all comes down to what i first said the public is who we need, we need the ALAEA to come up with a good plan media statment with fact and figures to show exactly why they should be doing this PIA

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Take PIA and delay customers and you lose the public. Some people may support you, right up to the point they miss their grandmothers funeral, or their business loses money because you want a better pay deal.

[No1inparticular]

this is what i mean need to get the info out before any disruptions happen, fact of the matter is people will hate the people delaying the planes not the company and qf knows that. let the public see qf has the ability to aviod any diruptions they earnt what a billion dollars come on they can afford an extra 2% don't be so tight GD

[employes perspective]

who gives a **** what the public or the media think,you have been in negotiation for 12 mths with Qantas management not them,you are smacking them not the other 2,it's those d!ickheads that should be held accountable not the LAMES.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

they earnt what a billion dollars come on they can afford an extra 2% don't be so tight GD
Profit in $$$ is a useless stat. If QF use $6 billion in assets to achieve $1 billion in returns - what's the return on that. Then factor in the risk they take to achieve that above the risk free rate.... that's what determines a good return or not.
To make a silly example, $1 billion in profit using $100 billion in assets is horrible.
If you chew into that $1 billion (and with an agreement over the long term) you devalue the company.

[No1inparticular]

You and I both know that but they wouldn't give a flying fudge. But the impact would hit QF a lot harder if public are onside. Doesn't matter what they think what are they going to do go around to all the LAME's houses', no. But if QF see a threat in them losing trust in the company all they see is money walking away. I say bring out all the dirt the MRO and how the work overseas is Dodgy let it all erupt again.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Yes it would..

The fact is you will NEVER have the public on side. NEVER.

[max1]

PAF,

What would YOU have these blokes do.
You talk about PIA losing the ginger-beers 'public support'.
What is this 'public support' supposed to gain them. It won't change Qantas managements thinking. Qantas are BIG advertisers and I doubt that most mainstream media will give the engineers a fair go anyway. i.e. pointing out the disparity in management pay rises to their lack of payrises, or the history of this dispute.
I am not personally involved in this dispute.
Unfortunately management 101 seems to teach that when EBAs fall due, get in high priced consultants (this covers your @rse), avoid negotiating, this will allow no payrises and savings to the company until new EBA. Take everything to the 11th hour and beyond, scare empolyees with doom and gloom scenarios, threaten to send jobs offshore, offer bugger all, then offer bugger all plus $1. Hopefully by this stage employees are so tired of the whole thing and feel that they did get something extra for their troubles that they vote to accept.Then reward yourselves with big bonuses and promotions. What they seem to forget that this treatment will eventually reach a critical point.
Good on you guys, stick to your guns. You are an ASSET not a COST.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

What would YOU have these blokes do.

Take the initial deal and say "Thank you for a job" - or quit.

[NAS1801]

I reiterate. The union needs to present a reasonable case to the general public. It may cost $ but there needs to be a campaign. Newspaper avertisement? website? Something that gets across the message that Qantas is slowly being destroyed by GD, DC & Co. Keep the 5% low key; mention it and back it up but DO NOT make it the main issue in the public eye.

Talk about lack of recruitmen, training, spares etc and how this has impacted on existing staff. Talk about the sharp increase in manpower turn over. Talk about the questionable quality of 3rd party providers. Talk about the failed takeover and senior managements involvement. Finally, talk about the reasons behind 5%.

[NAS1801]

Hey PAF..... great idea! Take a leaf out of your own book and quit!

The PIA is happening. over three quaters of LAMEs voted so. Like it or get over it.

[soldier of fortune]

P.A.F = Kevin Brown.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Keep the 5% low key;

Yup.. no-one will pick up on that! Good idea!

[max1]

PAF

A quitter never wins.

Why quit.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

If the conditions being offered are so bad then you could do better elsewhere right?

[max1]

Thats the attitude, rather than fight, run away.

For Sale --
PAF's army rifle, never fired , only dropped once.

[Anulus Filler]

PAF....
Profit in $$$ is a useless stat. If QF use $6 billion in assets to achieve $1 billion in returns - what's the return on that. Then factor in the risk they take to achieve that above the risk free rate.... that's what determines a good return or not.
To make a silly example, $1 billion in profit using $100 billion in assets is horrible.
If you chew into that $1 billion (and with an agreement over the long term) you devalue the company.
Today 19:56

That's why Dixon was going to be gifted $60,000,000 for the QF sale. Where was the value in that? You conveniently come up with these figures like you are Dixon himself.
Oh yes.. The public in the terminals will fall for that chestnut. You are a genius!
Do you really think the public will ever be on side? I am putting my health before anything else. I know no one else cares for it except me..Qf certainly doesn't.:)

[Pass-A-Frozo]

That's the spirit. The public doesn't care. All they care about is getting on the aircraft they booked and going someone.

The argument that senior management don't deserve a senior salary is silly. Further to that it is not for you to decide - it's for the shareholder. Convince the shareholder you are worth $60 Million and it's yours. That's what it comes down to.

[reflux]

Don't know who you are but i see you've also been agitating on the cabin crew eba thread. You must be management or one of their stooges or just plain deaf.
1500 eligible voters on lame register and 1200 yes votes means your opinion, (is it yours?) will carry little weight and sway no one. We're sick of the threats, scaremongering and lies. Also a bit sick of q management telling us to tighten belts, then watching profits rise again and then watching management taking all the plaudits, pat each other on the back and taking a very large snoutful from the trough.
We're not asking for a king's ransom, merely a reasonable return for our own efforts, which have not gone unnoticed as i've received emails from all and sundry manager (well, their secretaries) telling us all how good we've been this year, and thanks for our effort.
Well this year we'd like that thank you to be somewhat more tangible.

[NAS1801]

PAF, you chose not to read the rest of my post. I suggest you go back and read it. I shall restrain myself from typing what I think of you.

[Anulus Filler]

The argument that senior management don't deserve a senior salary is silly. Further to that it is not for you to decide - it's for the shareholder. Convince the shareholder you are worth $60 Million and it's yours. That's what it comes down to
PAF..This may have been legal but was it moral? Suppose you couldn't answer that.
Also, look at who have the major QF shareholdings. It's big buisness looking after big buisnesses. (I'll give you a pay rise if you give me one). I don't believe Dixon was ever worth $60 mil. or ever shall be. It should have been distributed to staff equally for all their efforts in the rot that has set in.
Just a side note. Would love to see an independent company survey QF staff morale.:ouch:

[max1]

For Sale--

PAFs Tank- one forward gear, six reverse.

But seriously, you are sychopantic little toad.

I can envision great-grandpa PAF in WW1. Safely ensconced 15 miles back from the front, telling his superiors what a fantastic job they are doing, that its not their fault that they sent .22 cartridges to the soldiers with the .303 rifles and vice versa. That they sent hay to the mechanised division, and petrol to the cavalry. That they forgot to bring the medical corps.
Being gobsmacked that the troops got together and sorted it out anyway, and then had the temerity to asked to be released for R&R after two years in the trenches.Great grandpa PAF asks 'don't they know there is a war on' and then asks for a medal.
The fruit doesn't fall too far from the tree

[reflux]

When French ATC go on strike (every summer) or German railway workers go on strike and it's usually for a fair/valid reason the public tend to have some sympathy for them and also not a little empathy, as long as the reasons are in the public domain.
Well Boys from Bexley, get out there and get the message out. This once great Australian company is being brought to it's knees and guess what? It's not terrorism (bloody tea towel heads) or SARS (bloody asians) or competition (bloody yanks). It's an inside job! Bloody Aussies!
You (we) have contacts in the media, so get the message out.

Say it once and say it loud,
I'm a LAME and F**kin proud
Say it again and this time louder
We're qantas, but could be prouder.

[whitenite]

Hit the nail on the head max1 and reflux, nice rhyme but probably a bit too long for a badge or bumper sticker. Still, seems to have sent paf off to consult with his handlers. 'Oh they're picking on me those nasty engineers, what can I say back"

[HARDNUT]

You can try to distribute your company views here but it wont help your cause.We are united (just look at the ballot results).I have never seen all the LAME's so determined.Moral is at an all time low,you guys in management can take the credit for that.We have all the tools to succeed.

Worldwide LAME shortage,sympathetic public and the comitment to follow through with this.

What management doesn't understand is that we contribute greatly the safety record that Q is known for!!!.Without that they will loose thousands of customers. It will only take one incident.


Also one majour rule in business is "a happy worker is a good worker".Lots of small business operators know this but not Q. It costs them untold millions.Get the employee's offside and it will cost you heaps.Not even the best bean counter can put a figure on it. Just all the little things,avoidable delays,resource wastage,leaveng apu's running e.t.c, pilots flying faster,taking extra fuel,flying lower.


So PAF 3% increse instead of 5%.Saving money????? :D Look at the big picture!!!!!!!!


Strike breakers???? The company will never get enough scabs to make a difference.:)

[NAS1801]

To make my previous post a little clearer for the dummies, 5% is not the only issue.

There is also the complete lack of regard for the great reputation that Qantas once enjoyed. The company is being stripped of this reputation through the pure greed of those that run the joint. The fleet is no longer fastidiously maintained as it once was. There is not enough manpower available to complete checks in the required time so heavy checks are off shored to questionable providers. People are leaving in droves.... they are not being replaced!

One obvious solution to the above crisis is to STOP the oscene greed of upper management and start paying the employees a FAIR and attractive wage to stop people leaving, attract more engineers and in turn, prevent the nesecity to offshore to questionable providers.

Makes no sense to you PAF? Then go fly Garuda or other such airlines. You deserve them.

[SCHAIRBUS]

Patience is a virtue the bans may take a little while before the wheels fall off.
Going out on the grass for any length of time will give the company ammunition to go to the media with an oh my god look what they're doing to us.
Just sit tight support the union and trust them.
Don't under estimate what a bungling bunch of idiots DC and Ms team is.
Even if we don't get our 5% we may be able to rid ourselves of some of these clowns.
As for strike breakers how many Captains will accept aircraft signed off with questionable fixes by people who are just here for a quick buck.
Tech crews may not be concerned with our problems but they have a vested interest in getting to their destination safely and legally.
I'm sure if any of these these strike breakers step over the line there will be plenty of people willing to report it.
Also if we break the 3% cap then other unions will be able to do the same so we may get a lot more help from other QF workers than we think.:ok:

[wingers]

Has anyone heard of any major ads back in August/September, can anyone shed some shed some light on this, have heard that their was a major size ads in Hong Kong, and NZ ,this is second had info but reliable from an expat in HK who is Tech,

[domo]

If the union push for a headline 5% this will not happen the company to save face will give 3% plus bonus on the side hopefully extra points ect.
so if pride does not come in to it we can comprise but if we seek to pressure the company into 5% they will try to f@@@ us hard as an example, also the labor goverment is trying to prevent an inflation outbreak the last thing they want is a union campaine to drive up wages.
we are pis@@ off over the way management has run engineering however if we show senior management that we care about the company more than these bad managers they might replace them with better ones, because in the heat of battle lets rember where our paycheck comes from.

[whatdouknow]

Where has PAF gone...

back to his management hole perhaps.

Out of touch with reality imo.

[Short_Circuit]

Gone to feed "The Pigs" (F-111) one would guess.

[Redstone]

Where has PAF gone...

back to his management hole perhaps.

Out of touch with reality imo.

Back to the sheltered workshop one would hope.

The company seems very serious about organising these "strike breakers" (although I do believe the idea of strike action has neither been entertained or mentioned, so the headlines in the tabloids are spurious at best) but how many LAMEs do you think they can rustle up?

Boys and girls strap yourselves in, it's going to be one hell of a start to 2008.

Just remember work to rule works both ways, be carefull out there.

[Shlonghaul]

In todays Sydney Morning Herald...........

Qantas seeks overseas help with strike threat

Scott Rochfort
December 24, 2007

QANTAS has become so desperate to recruit strikebreakers to ward off industrial action by its aircraft engineers that it has asked Air New Zealand and even the 400 engineers it made redundant last year for help.

Faced with work stoppages by its 1700 engineers from January 9, which are set to cripple operations, Qantas has attempted to lure back former engineering staff who took redundancies when it closed its Sydney 747 heavy maintenance base in May last year.
"The money being offered is nearly double what they were paid previously," said one engineer, who asked not to be named.
Qantas's head of people, Kevin Brown, declined to comment on the speculation. But he said the airline was "pursuing a variety of arrangements … [to] ensure our passengers can book with confidence through January".
In a move set to further inflame tensions, the airline has gone across the Tasman for help.
"Air New Zealand came to us and told us they had had been approached by Qantas and if our members would be interested," Andrew Little, the national secretary of the New Zealand Engineering Printing and Manufacturing Union, said.

Mr Little said it was unlikely the licensed aircraft maintenance engineers - LAMEs - at Air New Zealand would want to help out.
"Our members will not be playing any role," he said. "We're 100 per cent unionised over here."

But it is understood Qantas has had better luck signing up some of the licensed engineers Air New Zealand made redundant last year. The airline's attempts to raise a workforce of temporary engineers follows the breakdown of 13-month-old enterprise bargaining talks with the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association.
The union has demanded a 5 per cent annual pay rise for its members, compared to Qantas's 3 per cent offer.
"We think our 5 per cent is not only reasonable but something that all people in the company should be taking," said the ALAEA's federal president, Paul Cousins, in a dig at the large salary increases Qantas executives have enjoyed in recent years.

Qantas's executive general manager of engineering, David Cox, for example, saw his pay packet increase 50 per cent to $1.89 million last financial year.

The association was given the green light to start four-hour stoppages against Qantas last Friday, when 87 per cent of its members voted in favour of industrial action. This could represent the biggest disruption to air travel in Australia since the 1989 pilots dispute which grounded the domestic market for months. Qantas jets can only take off once they have been cleared by a licensed engineer.
The problem for Qantas is that even without strike action, it has become difficult to find trained engineers. Those who are brought in from overseas also need to go through an exhaustive accreditation process with the Civil Air Safety Authority.

The last chance for Qantas to avoid strike action will come on January 4, when it resumes talks with the ALAEA. But the union has insisted it will not compromise its claim for a pay rise, making the chances of an agreement more remote. "It's never been an ambit claim," Mr Cousins said.

Good luck with your eba guys.........Go for it :D :ok:

Memo to Kevin Brown.... you are head of people.......try acting like one for a change :rolleyes:

[Capt Kremin]

While secondary boycotts are illegal, I doubt I will be accepting any MEL's on any aircraft I will be flying during one of these stoppages.

[company_spy]

whilst this pia is underway your shiny bird will be maintained to within an inch of its life capt,thats not to say it isnt already but just to reassure yourself and other techs and cc.
hopefully you will enjoy m.e.l free aircraft,but if you notice anything and i mean anything on your walkaround please inform your lame, as he will be in no doubt in a mood to rectify and aquite your concerns.

[whatdouknow]

Capt Kremin, spread the word!!

Company Spy, you too also...

[The Mr Fixit]

To Mr Little and the NZ Engineers, I SALUTE YOU !!!!

To the Sydney Heavy LAMEs who told them to shove their 100k, I SALUTE YOU !!!!

To all those that have supported our cause, both from within and without, I SALUTE YOU !!!!


JANUARY 4

QANTAS' D DAY

ENGINEERS' SAY

"YOU BRING THE PAY OR THERE"LL BE NO PLAY"


:E Ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight :E

[company_spy]

Looks like the cmpany is in a panic as I have just had a couple of calls from ex roo staff who had home visits from resume.com todat to do interviews

[acslame]

Company spy
I hope your "Ex roo" mates are
not going to take up these positions!!!!
Let us not forget what they are to be used for.
I would suggest they go and rewatch Basterd Boys

[Sunfish]

If I can give a little advice, since I don't like what Qantas has done to you guys one bit....

1. Firstly anything they DON'T pay you is pure profit - straight to the bottom line.

Thats why they DELAY things as long as possible. Whoever is running QF's negotiating strategy will no doubt be congratulated for making the company

3% x average LAME monthly wage x number of LAME's x 12 months = a handy chunk of money, work it out yourselves. Thats what its cost you to negotiate for 12 months.

So rule #1 is no more delay and don't let them "phase in" pay increases either.

2. Please, please! Get professional help with your PR and do it real quick like yesterday! Mr. Purvinas came over all right on ABC radio today, but as the prospect of strike action gets closer, Qantas will increase the PR pressure, painting you as un australian, greedy neanderthals.

You need to get your argument down to a ten second sound bite and repeat it all the time every time. It will help, blunt the Qantas media onslaught. Personally, I would be sending the public a safety message, the average punter still thinks Qantas has a great safety record because of you guys.

Unless Qantas is silly enough to get out masked goons with Rottwielers, you are not going to get much sympathy from the public. Your will be successful in my opinion if you can just get them to remain neutral.

3. For Christ sake, if you aren't already in dialogue with the ACTU, then get connected. Get connected with the Government as well if possible. The obvious Qantas tactic will be to get the usual suspects (eg the Institute of Public Affairs, plus Brendan Nelson) to claim the the Rudd Government really is going "soft on unions" and that the ACTU has their hand up his backside.

Remember that it was a Hawke Labor Government that broke the pilots union. Do NOT back the Rudd Government into a corner by doing anything really provocative, although the company will do its best to make that happen. If Rudd is backed into a corner, there is a possibility that he will thump you to prove his credentials.

My advice to you is that if delays are impacting the travelling public, then suggest to the Government that the best way to help the public is to temporarily let more international flights in, let them carry domestic pax as well etc. Talk to Singapore Airlines. That would set GD's hair on fire.

4. Just remember that you are dealing with a lieing, cheating pack of thugs led by someone whose eye is on maximising his income for his forthcoming retirement.

They will try and portray themselves as honest people negotiating in good faith but being frustrated by a rotten and unreasonable bunch of thugs in the ALAEA. Its your job to show to the public exactly what creeps Qantas management is.

It was nauseating reading some of the postings by your former union exec's about how gentlemanly and professional their negotiations were, you want to "negotiate" like the proverbial junkyard dog. Stuff the niceties, they will try and get you to make concessions to show your "Good Faith" (an old trick). If they do that, then immediately ask for a similar sized concession in return, but I hope your reps have gone to the Union negotiating school.

Good luck and merry Christmas.

P.S. Don't listen to the likes of PAF, he is a hypocrit who has no knowledge of what he speaks.

[Long Bay Mauler]

PAF,I doubt whether you are even qualified in an aviation related field,and that you are most likely some office clerk who has been given the task of starting fires amongst engineers,pilots and cabin crew,for the management.Wish I had a job like that.Imagine being paid to work 9-5,have weekends and public holidays off,sit in an airconditioned office,and still get paid to post on PPRUNE.

Now that is a great job.....

As for the proposed strike breakers,they must have rocks in their heads if they think $100K for six months is worth the six months of living in hotels,being driven to work from undisclosed locations,and most likely not being allowed to tell anyone outside of work that you are part of a strike breaking workforce.Yeah that is money earned easily,I dont think....

At this point in time,I am not overly concerned about what will happen after jan 9,because at this point in time the ALAEA has conducted a well organised and legal campaign.They have followed what the legislation has asked,and this is the result.

Well done boys and girls.

Lets just see what the wind blows in a weeks time.......Remember a week is a long time in politics.:ok:

[whatdouknow]

Home visits, gees the nerve!

In a Panic springs to mind.

To Mr Fixit, isn't the media reporting the 9th of January? Where did the 4th come from!

[numbskull]

Resume.domain are already paying their strikebreakers.

I now believe that QF will deliberately engineer an escalation of the situation to test the resolve of members and force LAMES to takes sides. I believe they are well down the path of planning for this.

My prediction is that they will pick on someone who has made any breach of policy and procedure and stand them down.

The association will then call a stop work meeting and chaos will follow.

Qantas will cry that "the evil unions are trying to bully us and hold our business to ransom. They are selfish and have no regard for the travelling public. Blaa blaa blaa".

The next shift will find their ASICS no longer get them through the gate and that a workforce of strikebreakers will be bussed in to fill the breach.

Qantas will implore the Labour government to intervene. The new government will be keen to show that they can stand up to the unions (and won't want to set a precedent which causes a wages blow out which in turn will cause higher inflation/interest rates).

Qantas will keep the LAMES locked out until such time as the Government can force the ALAEA to eat their s@#t sandwich.

Gees I hope it doesn't happen like this!!!

Don't give them any reason to stand you down. Follow policy and procedures to the letter.

I have met with Resume.Domain. They are willing to sign people (and pay) immediately.

Unfortunately I won't be joining them.

Good Luck!!

[Long Bay Mauler]

So Wingers & Numbskull,where is this www.resumedomain.com (http://www.resumedomain.com/) ?

All I see is a resume writing service.If you know their correct website,why not publish it.Otherwise,give it a break as someone may mistake you for a stooge.

Maybe the joke is that we will all be updating our resumes come late January......lol

[LME-400]

So Wingers & Numbskull,where is this www.resumedomain.com ?

All I see is a resume writing service.If you know their correct website,why not publish it.Otherwise,give it a break as someone may mistake you for a stooge.

Maybe the joke is that we will all be updating our resumes come late January......lol


http://www.resumedomain.com

Job Code C8278

[Capt Kremin]

Anyone with any sense of solidarity with the engineers should be able to have some fun with that website.:E

[LME-400]

Anyone with any sense of solidarity with the engineers should be able to have some fun with that website.:E

Best done with a web proxy.

http://www.ezwebproxy.com/

And to check your IP.

http://www.moanmyip.com/

[rmm]

They advertised for the same positions over a year ago. I applied but was eventually told the opportunity never eventuated?? Same job code too.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256038&highlight=resumedomain

[cementhead]

Its not about 5% because they will give us 3%
so is 2% worth all this bullsh$#,we told them what we think hold out for some fringe benfits and remove the xtp and lame to ame clauses and lets settle this thing.. this lock out crap aint worth 2%

[MENDAERO]

I agree with you about the clauses cementhead, but you also have to remember that every time you take a pay rise, which is below inflation, it's a pay cut, and it keeps the LAME pay rates going backwards.

Remember its not just about you and me, it's about everyone who enters this job in the future and the calibre of engineers in the future. Pay peanuts, get monkeys!

I'm already earning less than Qantas's competitors!

So yes it is worth the grief for 2%, id rather sit on my current pay than accept 3%

[Long Bay Mauler]

Thanks LME-400 for that.

Well if they are secretly training guys to be able to sign for QF aircraft,then there must be an instructor from the training school conducting training and examinations.Anybody know who it is?

I doubt if it is Bwarry.He'd be too slow.Just ask any African about the length of time it takes to assess their past training.

[600ft-lb]

This could well be an interesting update
Qantas is offering its former engineers, some made redundant as little as a year ago, jobs as strike breakers with a $100,000 salary for just six months work, a union says.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/100000-for-strike-breakers/2007/12/24/1198344952338.html

IF, Qantas manage to get a team of strike breaking scabs, how do they go about training the scabs considering they require, under the Qantas system of maintenance, and a CASA requirement no doubt, 214 training and differences training ?

Even if they do manage to secure enough scabs, will the staff at the technical training school at Qantas be willing to train a bunch of scabs ?

One thing we do have on our side is there are a lot of bitter redundant ex Qantas workers, who are more then likely going to tell resumedomain.com to stick it as well as the fact that by the rules and reg's of this country state that engineers are unable to maintain their CASA License due to not working on aircraft for a 6 month in a 24 month period.

Anyway, if at the end of the day we are all locked out, lose our jobs and Qantas have an alternative workforce, I for one think its great they would be willing to pay their engineers 200k a year, more then a captain at the same airline. Could it be a sign of the future ?????

How much would it cost to give an extra 2% compared to the millions of $ they're willing to spend on scabs.. Really it does say something about this company's agenda.

[chemical alli]

just heard the 2gb talkback show with one of the alaea union delegates ,good job too. direct and to the point. I cant believe what i am hearing from some of the guys on this thread on how scared we are. you voted and it was a clear indication of a majority ,so suck it up and stop whining.be prepared for the worst and sometimes youre surprised of the outcome.
have a great xmas to one and all.

[Talkwrench]

re post 404. Apparently some 87% of returned votes DO think 2% is worth all this bulls*it. So far as I can tell, NO industrial has yet even taken place. Why are you already conceding defeat? We have never, ever, been better placed to secure a superior EBA outcome. All you have to do is keep information lines open, communicate, trust your executive and stand firm. I believe the new executive have proven themselves so far and as such, deserve and require our continued and unwavering support as we head into the 'real' EBA negotiations. If not, we may as well have signed off on 3% 12 months ago.

[Work-4-It]

I heard today that the Qantas Training School is gearing up for the conversion training for these strike breakers. instructors and administration staff have had there annual leave revoked for the next couple of months.

[wingers]

Been doing some hunting, and my info is that resumedomain.com client is Newport Aviation Pty Limited, the Managing Director Bruce MacDonald founder and CEO of FORSTAFF , the bloke that set up Avalon. apparently he sold to Candler McCLeod a couple of years ago for a squillion...there has been some squabbling her but i think that we need to be united and not bag each other, it is important we are solid as they seem pretty serious and have the bucks to throw around

[PIOT Bord]

You will be glad to know that at a time when Qantas is in the news re possible Industrial Action, a cool head and a bit of restraint should be shown by it's management team. That's probably why Dixon only had his snout in the trough for 1,000,000 shares at NO COST today, and Gregg felt that he couldn't accept any more than 750,000 shares at NO COST.

Not bad, while the LAME's are only asking for an increase that will cover inflation and a bit of a catch up for years of restraint. The leadership in the place are grabbing as much as they can. Must be their reward for trying to sell the company to their mates on the cheap. $68 million if they had got away with it.

[reflux]

good work mate. any info is great. if it's genuine then pass it on to the Bexley Bunker. A few guys I know have been called by this scab-hiring mob. Aparrently very few details on phone but will tell more at interview. Ha fu**ing Ha. Go for the interview and if it's for real then good luck. if it's 'strike' breaking then GOOD LUCK.
Does present q management think that anyone who has left in the last 18 months did it for altruistic reasons? They all left 'cos they hate the way that the company they had loyally served for 30 -40 years had turned into a place where c**nts come to learn about management. These c**nts didn't care for aeroplanes and cared even less for people, people who had spent a life caring for THEIR aeroplanes. I have one reservation in all this, and that is the person driving this was also present during the pilot dispute. Rest assured Mr IO that we are not as easy to replace as your 'glorified bus drivers'. You may pay them more than us, but CASA and the qf system are buggers to get past.
5% is not such a barrier in the shadow of a 1.4 billion profit, is it? What do you want to be remembered by? You are only as good as your last game.

[No SAR No Details]

From Bloomberg.com

Qantas Readies Plan to Avoid Passenger Disruptions (Update2)
By Gemma Daley
Dec. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Qantas Airways Ltd., Australia's biggest airline, is preparing a plan to minimize flight disruptions in the face of any action by 1,700 of its engineers seeking bigger raises and an improvement in working conditions.
``We are pursuing a variety of contingency arrangements to ensure our passengers can travel and book with confidence in January,'' Kevin Brown, head of human resources at the Sydney- based carrier, said in a telephone interview today.
To combat the planned industrial action, Qantas is trying to recruit engineers in New Zealand and hire 400 others made redundant last year, the Sydney Morning Herald reported today.
Any action by Qantas' workers would coincide with an improvement in performance. The carrier earlier this month predicted record profit after flying more domestic passengers.
The company's shares have gained 5 percent since the beginning of the year compared with a 0.4 percent decline for Singapore Airlines Ltd. in the same period. They rose 7 cents, or 1.3 percent, to A$5.48 at the close on the Australian Stock Exchange, their first gain since Dec. 13.
Ban on Overtime
Qantas engineers have agreed to introduce a ban on overtime work after negotiations over pay and working conditions collapsed following 13 months of discussions. The Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association wants a 5 percent annual pay increase; Qantas has offered 3 percent.
Data show Qantas employees outperformed their counterparts at Singapore Airlines, Asia's most profitable carrier. Qantas' sales per employee exceeded Singapore Airlines' by almost 10 percent in U.S. dollar terms for the most recent 12 months, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
Former engineers and their New Zealand counterparts have contacted the union after being offered work, union spokesman Steve Re said in an interview, adding Qantas is set to resume talks on Jan. 4.
Workers will ban overtime beginning Jan. 9 and will stop all work should Qantas intervene, Re said.
Qantas, the target of a failed buyout bid, has carried 7.1 percent more passengers this fiscal year on higher demand at its domestic and Jetstar low-fare units.
A six-month national dispute in 1989 saw the Australian Federation of Air Pilots impose a limitation to working hours from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. during a campaign for a 29 percent pay rise. The Royal Australian Air Force stepped in to keep domestic air running smoothly.
To contact the reporter on this story: Gemma Daley in Canberra at [email protected]
Last Updated: December 24, 2007 00:23 EST
Email this article Printer friendly format
Advertisement: Top m Bloomberg.com

[section 41]

Unless I am mistaken the Tech training school staff are under the LAME Tech salary staff award and I doubt that they would be prepared to offer their services to the company to put their colleagues out of a job.

The belief in management is tha the industrial action is being pushed by the exectutive the vote tells another story (no one more suprised by this than me) WE MUST STAND UNITED the stakes are much higher than I think many people realise our media coverage is already comparing our actions to the pilots dispute and unfortunatly they did not get much public support.

On the issue of "scabs' I believe that their would not be too any pilots that crossed the lie who on reflection are happy with the decision they made. We have an anomous forum here if any would like to comment that would be great.

If the dispute goes down the same road (which I doubt) the major difference this time is our qualifications are less transportable than the pilots (with the exception of the ex-HM guys) the airline in question this time is both domestic and international bit hard to fly a Herc to london or Lax. Our managers now may be qualified in running LAPs and lame smegma but relatively few are LAMES (because we all know tha that "you don't need to be a LAME to be a manager") they will not be able to certify in our place.

IF and only if we hold the line Maybe just Maybe we can make a difference.

[mahatmacoat]

Engineers defiant: Bring it on Qantas, you can't replace us


http://www.livenews.com.au/Articles/2007/12/24/Engineers_defiant_Bring_it_on_Qantas_you_cant_replace_us

[FlexibleResponse]

As always, if you stick together, management will have to eat humble pie.

If you break ranks, you will be toast...

...and management are working furiously on the latter.

Your engineering job is a noble discipline and profession that is well worth fighting for.

This is quite unlike the so-called jobs that are held by some other greedy oxygen thieves that are employed by your airline.

[northsteyne]

During my time with the big red roo i have seen some questionable fixes performed by LAME's that you wouldn't let work on your victa.
However most LAMES i know are very profesional and perform there duties to the higest level.
I take offence that you think only currently employeed LAMES with QANTAS know what they are doing.I have only left QF recently with over 25 years with them and i don't beleave i have forgotton how to perform my duties as a lame and would do so if i was re employeed again in the industry.Please give us ex employees that respect.
Yes i also along with probably 100's more have been approached to come back for the CASH.
and for the record they can go and get f##cked.

[600ft-lb]

I don't doubt you mate, I for one believe Qantas is all the worse off for having made you guys redundant in the first place. Good on you for telling them to stick their job, if Qantas were an ethical company they would offer you guys your jobs back on a full time normal employment, instead they want you to become the wedge between the engineers, your former workmates. It could become as messy as the pilots strike, I for one wouldn't want to be on any list that would hinder my and my families life for the future.

There is a worldwide shortage of engineers at the moment, it is not the time to start accepting substandard pay rises especially since inflation has gone up past our pay rises, interest rates up, everything is up.

[Clipped]

Share info - but do not breed fear ... that's what Q mgmt is doing.

Just remember how long it has taken them to introduce any 'efficiencies' over the last couple of years, and what the net worth of this 'change' has been. These twits couldn't organise a .... in a ....... .

That thin layer of fools up there are shi..ing themselves, make no mistake about that. They do not own the company but are accountable. They are in fear and are desperate, hence the measures they seek.

Be sensible, patient and above all be professional.

Be very particular and thorough ... begin NOW.

[alpine57]

I am not a LAME, but am following your dispute with great interest. I also know QF very, very well (that's all i can say).

Your determination is great to see and there is nothing unreasonable about your claims.

But some friendly hints:-

1) Forget about public support or lack of it. In a dispute the public never support a union engaged in stoppages. Also, remember who owns the media (they are not friends of employees).

2) Those of you who actually think QF will agree to wage rises over 3%, think again. I only hope your elected officials don't actually believe they can achieve more than 3%. If they do, all of you are heading for disaster.

QF will defend the 3% cap at all costs- it has implications for all other QF unions if they were to give you a greater increase. Be sure, they will never agree to beyond a 3% increase.

3) BE ready for a termination of your existing EBA , which is a pre-reform agreement . The AIRC (federal commission) would be bound to grant a termination upon QF application.

4) At that point, QF can go down some very nasty paths. One obvious path is to ask the AIRC to withdraw approval for any further industrial action. Other QF options include locking you out and then deciding if they will even talk to you.

For those of you, who think i am some QF supporter think again. I hope your relatively new union leadership does not miscalculate.

I realise you have other important issues other than a wage increase.

My suggestion is that all of you plus your elected reps concentrate on those, rather than a 5% increase.

If you stake all over 5% there will be disastrous consequences for your membership.

Good luck...... you are a decent group of people ! :)

[lowerlobe]

The AIRC (federal commission) would be bound to grant a termination upon QF application.

Alpine...It's good to see you over here but I have a question.

It's my understanding that the AIRC is far from being bound to grant a termination but will only do so if there is a compelling argument from the company and that argument has to be a very irresistible and persuasive one.

It has to be proven that the case for a termination of the EBA has to be in the public's interest and without it the public would be severely disadvantaged.

Can you give us past examples of a company being successful in this endeavour ?

[alpine57]

Hi lowerlobe.

The commission must grant a termination upon application of either party to an EBA unless there are public interest reasons not to grant it.To grant a termination an EBA must have nominally expired, as has the LAME EBA. Also, there is no 90 day notice period required before termination can be granted upon application of a party(as is the case for post reform agreements), as the LAME EBA is a pre-reform agreement.

So, the Company doesn't have to prove that a termination is in the public interest, rather a union would have to demonstrate it's not in the public interest to grant a termination. In other words the onus would be on the union.

Please note that the legislation says the AIRC ( federal Commission) MUST grant a termination, not may.

lowerlobe read the FAAA advice attached to the latest newsletter on its website, it's clearly explained.

By the way merry xmas.


Here is an example :


EBA Expiry Date Upheld Author: Dr Kirk Lovric of Allens Arthur Robinson (http://www.findlaw.com.au/wld/profile.asp?id=10523&task=firm&site=CN) A Full Bench of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission (AIRC) has restricted the discretion of the AIRC when considering termination of expired certified agreements. This article examines the decision and its impact on the AIRC's role when reviewing the public interest.

Background

On 13 January 2005, the AIRC heard an appeal by Esso contractors KBR and Worley against a commissioner's decision to refuse to terminate an expired certified agreement because this was not in the public interest. In the original application, KBR and Worley applied under s170MH(3) of the Workplace Relations Act 1996 (Cth) to terminate their certified agreements.[1] Under s170MH(3), the AIRC must terminate a certified agreement after its expiry date, unless that would be contrary to the public interest. The application was made following union opposition to proposed work changes which, in the contractors' view, are necessary for cost and efficiency reasons.

The application failed as the AIRC was concerned about:
the position of Esso to influence negotiations; and
the impact on employees' families of a change to a 14-day roster under alternative industrial arrangements.The public interest test

From the earliest times, the AIRC and its predecessors approached the issue of public interest from the perspective of the community as a whole, not of the parties involved. In some recent cases, such as Geelong Wool Combing ,[2] the AIRC has adopted a much broader view of the public interest test, considering the interests of the parties and the public. In that case, the AIRC refused to terminate a certified agreement due to concerns over the negative impact on employees if the agreement ceased to apply.

The Esso appeal

KBR and Worley appealed to the Full Bench and argued that Commissioner Whelan's refusal to terminate was incorrect. The Full Bench agreed with KBR and Worley and noted: ... the Commissioner was wrong to conclude that the influence exercised by Esso over the contractors was contrary to the Act. It follows also that the Commissioner's conclusion that termination of the agreements would be contrary to the public interest, because it would facilitate a process contrary to the Act, was also erroneous.[3]The public interest test and enterprise bargaining

In overturning Commissioner Whelan's decision, the Full Bench stated that the public interest does not include the interests of the parties unless the legislation specifically requires this. This narrows the AIRC's application of the test to something more akin to the traditional interpretation.

The significance of the narrow interpretation is that termination of an expired certified agreement becomes a legitimate bargaining strategy during negotiations. Faced with an impasse, employers now know that a successful application to terminate an expired certified agreement will result in terms of employment reverting to the parent award, usually on less beneficial rates of pay and other entitlements. In particular negotiations, this may bring matters to a head and assist resolution of outstanding matters.

[1]Kellogg Brown and Root Pty Ltd; Worley ABB Joint Venture; Corke Instrument Engineering Pty Ltd , PR951725, 7 September 2004.
[2]Geelong Wool Combing Ltd re: Geelong Wool Combing Ltd Enterprise Agreement 1993 and Others , PR937499, 5 September 2003.
[3]Kellogg Brown and Root Pty Ltd and Others v Esso Australia , PR955357, 31 January 2005.

April, 2005

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[cementhead]

as I said befour lets work at the margins, not the headline (5%)
if all this can turn to sh## and qantas esculates it so we get locked out and lose our redundacy provisions i will be upset

[Excalibur,]

Enjoy your family on this day ,relax life is not just about work. Think about others not only in our country but in third world proverty. We have a good life. If your not happy at QE move on,

[STRIKEBREAKERBRAKA]

Thanx alpine57, there is some very helpfull information there.

[STRIKEBREAKERBRAKA]

Excalibur, Sounds like your life is great and your happy as you are. When we get the increase i take it your share will go to the salvos or even better back to the union.That would be a good gesture since you are happy with your pay going backwards!!!Nice first post and all the best for xmas and the new year.

[reflux]

For those of you who don't follow other threads, A-57 is a regular contributor on CC EBA thread. Common wisdom there is that their union FAAA executive all have numbers as part of their pseudonyms, so it may be that A-57 is worth paying attention to.
But remember we are not CC and it takes a lot longer to train some one to replace us that CC (no offence A-57, just a lot of legalities on top of tech training).
I think he/she's right in that the company won't budge from 3%, but I also think there's more to this than an extra 2%.
It's well known that management think of us as an outrageously expensive part of the business. So why not provoke a blue, lock us all out, have the eba terminated and only ask back the ones they want and on their terms....... in the interim.
Then in the mid to long term sell each part of eng off. We might be Smith's Crisps Aero Engineering Ltd Victoria, or Heinz Air Services QLD etc.
No leave for QF to worry about, no uniforms, super, sickies, nothing except a single monthly/weekly/whatever payment to a contract agency.
The downside of this to QF is no company loyalty (if there's any of that left), just the bare legal minimum of on the job effort. MEL's galore, crappy interiors, delays, pissed off pax, deserting pax and finally no pax.
This could turn out to be the most expensive 2% since Adam gave up a rib. But as Adam also found out, it will make life very interesting and definitely unpredictable.
Enjoy the holidays and celebrate new year as if it's your last, because 2008 will not start with a wimper.

[STRIKEBREAKERBRAKA]

Sydney interviews have been mostly completed,the remainder will be end of the week and this weeekend. Not too many takers most people disgruntled and worried about the carrer effects in the future.

Melbourne will be finalised at the end of the week.A few ex tn retirees on board.

Brisbane interviews still pending later this week and weekend as in cairns.

Nz has minor intrest but not enough to make a difference.

The company will keep trying to recruit more. Anyone that is thinking of accepting this 100k over 6months offer should ask for a substantial amount of money up front,because if you are no longer required (ie dispute resolved) you will wear the tag of strikebreaker for years.

Aviation is a small industry.

All members it is time to comunicate with you fellow workmates and other ports.

Stick together and ride this out. Remember the majourity voted this in, now its time to back up this vote with action and pay sacrafice.The company is showing how serious it is by the ruthless recruitment drive to get scabs.( some people have even been asked that the management loaths)

We need to learn from the mistakes people have made with previous disputes. I hate to bring it up but the pilots dispute in 1989 was a classic.

The company basically divided and conquered them. Once the company got some people(i would love to name them but i would run into trouble with the moderator) to scab and come back to work,that was the beggining of the end. One of the scab pilots sons is actually a engineering foreman and he would think it is normal for employees to sell each other out because that is the example his father with no integrity has shown him!!!:=

I have seen this written previously on this thread but i wil say it again UNITED WE BARGAIN DIVIDED WE BEG!!..We need to adhere to this now more than ever,if we do we will ride out the storm and win.:ok::ok::ok:

[STRIKEBREAKERBRAKA]

Reflux i think you dont know what is achievable until you try.5% on face value is a long shot because of the precedent.But maybee we could bargain for annual bonuses based on company performances,but the payment at the end of 08 should be automatic due to the effect of the industrial action.Also obviously we want the two clauses kicked to the kurb aswell.

[Sunfish]

The huge enormous underlying assumption made by all Qantas Management is very very simple and very very dangerous to themselves, that is:

AUSTRALIAN LABOUR WILL ALWAYS BE MORE EXPENSIVE THAN ASIAN LABOUR

I meekly suggest that this is short sighted, but then If I got a bonus every year calculated on my last twelve months performance why would I care?

[HARDNUT]

I agree there are ways you can mask an increase.Its called creative accounting im sure the company would be able togive us some advice about that.

[STRIKEBREAKERBRAKA]

It all comes down to you pay for what you get.If Q management want to adjust the landscape using one of their alluminium tubes. Keep sending planes overseas and saving money on maint.False economy.There is places you can save money in the airline industry but i think the travelling public would agree its not in maint.

[reflux]

Mate you're right about what's possible re 3% plus annual bonus. But as one co-worker correctly pointed out, 5% this year then next year it's 5% of current wage + that 5% and so on, ie it compounds. A bonus is a one off (which all qf staff have received over the last 3-5 years). So you are saying we should go along the same lines as s/h techies which is fine, but remember it's also subject to marginal tax. Therefore if 100k is an ave wage (is it?) 3% is an extra 3k p.a. We would need an extra bonus of 2k in the first year and you can work out the rest if you want to compound it. It's not easy is it?
Then there's those clauses: company says they don't mean much, eba committee doesn't want a bar of them. Committe is negotiating on our behalf so I have to believe them (not a case of not trusting the company on principle) that they are very much on the nose. And if the company is digging in heels to keep them then you can bet the mortgage that 'good faith' is a term that is only being paid lip service in these negotiations.
Come what may we have to stick together when it gets nasty - and it will. Have a look at this link to get some historical perspective and check out the 1 person who was there 20 years ago is very much still a player in 2008. http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/pd89_document.htm

Cheers

[STRIKEBREAKERBRAKA]

Thanx for the link reflux,

I had a quick look.But it looks like a novel i just finished (war and peace).Ill have to review it later when i get more time. But seriously i think everyone should make themselves familiar with it.

[primethius]

A Bird In The Hand Is Worth Two In The Bush
The 2% above the offered 3% is worth x to those concerned LAMEs
The pay rates and ultimate ongoing cost will be a concern to the continued operation of any enterprise.
Now it goes without saying that bonuses enjoyed by the executive group supercedes the income of the wage earning group.
A lower paid LAME 5% is considerably less than the Grade 10 character yet are their needs less than his"?
We should perhaps reverse this trend and increase the wage of the lower paid LAME financed by the wage constraint of the highest paid.
People are by nature greedy and would that higher paid LAME forgo increases in their income and allow lower paid people to receive the benefit.

[satos]

AUSTRALIAN LABOUR WILL ALWAYS BE MORE EXPENSIVE THAN ASIAN LABOUR
Because the cost of living in Australia is higher.

[reflux]

Glad to pass on the link. Not a quick read, but save to stick and print out at work. You can read it during the first 4 hour stoppage.
Primethius, you clown. So all higher level lames take a wage freeze and pay the lower levels more? Why not make all level 4s level 8, and all level 12s level 8 and reduce the number of levels? Think about it mate. As I said, it's not easy and all parties want to walk away with no loss of face.
NorthSteyne, what a silly name, but thanks for the support. Go to the interview and waste their time, and if you do sign, wear a hard hat, cos there's sure to be some heavy sockets 'falling off the top of engines' and landing on some scab's head.
Enjoy what's left of Xmas.
R

[northsteyne]

Just a thought,
What if we get 20 good ex employees who know how to inspect aircraft,snag the sh#t out of them every night, go home without completing rectfication as they may be fatigued,work 6 months and donate all earnings to the ALAEA.or even better take the 100k and go and use a ladder where it's not approved and be stood down,or put a cartoon up on the wall in a smoko room of some tossa and also be stood down,I wunder if the policy book will be used for the scabs???

[mavrik1]

3% is going backwards for anybody in this day and age. The outside world has already past the aviation industry in many ways over the past 5 years.

If you just compare simply management wage increases to yours it is an out right insult and a 5% increase is nothing to request. But as said before 3% is the gate keeper for QF and if they give it to eng, every other union will battle for it aswell. It will be a massive defeat that will be dodged at every corner and angle known to man kind.

I believe engineering should battle like hell for it though, they deserve it for all **** they go through on a daily basis. Every QF employee will support them because they are battleing not just for themselves but for the whole industry, they are in the best position out of the QF group to go for what is well deserved, after the destruction and mess and crappy desicion making that has gone on above them, they have nothing to loose now.

The outside world will be not happy about about delays for these periods but if it goes on long enough, those who no what your fighting for and compare figures will no doubt think your requests are out of question, it will make management look like the crooks that they are.

The more you desturb, the more angry the public will get and questions to what is happening will hit the media which will help make mangement look like crooks and help get what you want.

Outside of Qantas there are aviation engineering companys that EBA's follow almost parellel to QF but are smaller, QF's actions directly result as outcomes for their employees too. So don't believe people are not supporting you they maybe small groups but they are and have been watching closely and are seeing the curuption unfolding by your seniors actions.

Its time to simply just go oldschool and give it to them hard.
EXPOSE THEM FOR WHAT THEY ARE!!!

[lordofthewings]

Heres one for you. How about the equivalent of a 3% pay rise for a LAME Grd 13 to all..This would be fair....

[FlexibleResponse]

"Expectation management".

Remember that not everyone posting on this forum and proffering "sympathy" is on your side.

The guys you work for don't deserve you and your skills.

Just a lateral thought...there are enormously rewarding opportunities for engineers in the mining industry. Minor variation of your specialist skills will set you up for life. Make a few calls to the mining folks and check.

[STRIKEBREAKERBRAKA]

You have been made redundant for a reason.think about it!!The company only lets people go because they are incompetent or are causing trouble!(unless you are over 50!) Where does your face fit in????Im glad you are supporting us, we need all the help we can get.Dont scab there are plenty of contracts overseas.

[STRIKEBREAKERBRAKA]

I i think you shoyuld put down the crack pipe that you have been smoking!! Lvl 13 is the maximum of our substandrd pay scale,its reserved for radio morts and super LAME's.I am a Lvl 4 and all i can hope for is a 5% pay rise for everyone. Blokes like me have been through a collapsed airline and deserve more for our experience in this sh:mad:t pay system.

[Long Bay Mauler]

If management stopped work for four hours,who would notice?

If all the LAMEs stopped work for four hours,who would notice?

Management could never go on stike because at the end of the day,the whole operation could continie for days without their input,and still run efficiently and smoothly,as proved by the Managers Love-In recently.

And that was MH's point in his letter thanking all those who stepped up to cover the operation.

[Short_Circuit]

Bugs,
Those first two lines says it all.
You can’t argue with that!
:D:D:D

[company_spy]

will the 18 break ranks ?
this could be the first divide and conquer technic.
As for across the ditch lames, come on over.we will show you the auzzie hakka, it normal starts with a thong (jandle to you bro)slap to the forehead

[LME-400]

You have been made redundant for a reason.think about it!!The company only lets people go because they are incompetent or are causing trouble!(unless you are over 50!) Where does your face fit in????

Gee, thats harsh.

I was nearly Dux of my year in '89, I don't think I'm incompetent and I was never a trouble maker yet I still got let go. Oh, I was under 40 at the time also.


Lvl 13 is the maximum of our substandrd pay scale,its reserved for radio morts

I was a Radio 'Mort' and with 3 types I was only lvl 6.

[NAS1801]

I can confirm LME-400's above post. Some VERY skilled and hard working guys were "let go", whilst some complete wastes of space were kept on.

[wingers]

Qantas plan set to anger engineers

Scott Rochfort SMH
December 27, 2007

Qantas is set to further anger its maintenance staff by unveiling "contingency" plans to offset threatened industrial action by its 1700 aircraft engineers.

The airline is expected to detail as early as today plans that could include rescheduling flights and hiring non-union licensed aircraft maintenance engineers.

Qantas has declined to comment on speculation it was using the Irish labour hire firm Direct Personnel to offer six-month, $100,000 contracts to engineering staff made redundant in Sydney last year to act as strikebreakers.

This is more than double the salary its engineers receive.
Positions have also been advertised on the job website Resumedomain.com for engineers with heavy-jet experience.
"Successful applicants will be rewarded with an attractive salary package to ensure we attract the best," the ad says. There are reports a labour hire firm has resorted to visiting the homes of former engineers to entice them back to Qantas.

The Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association has warned it will begin industrial action on January 9 unless Qantas agrees to its 5 per cent a year pay rise claim.

The action, which could include four-hour stoppages, will mean no one will be available to check Qantas flights for take-off or oversee maintenance checks on aircraft at critical times. Qantas has conceded it could be forced to reschedule most of its flights.

The attractive pay offer to former staff is likely to enrage the airline's engineering staff, 87 per cent of whom voted in favour of industrial action last week. As for the reported $100,000 packages, the union's federal president, Paul Cousins, said his members "are going to be absolutely furious".

The airline fuelled anger among staff last week when it announced plans to establish its first heavy maintenance base in Asia in partnership with Malaysia Airlines. Qantas said the new base would serve only as an "overflow" when its bases in Australia were booked out.

Mr Cousins questioned why an airline holding out on paying its staff an extra 5 per cent, or $4000 a year, was prepared to pay $100,000 to non-union engineers for six months. Qantas has a 3 per cent rise on the table.
"We've got no doubt that Qantas has supplied the list [of former staff] to this Direct Personnel firm so they can call the guys who left," Mr Cousins said. Qantas laid off 480 maintenance and engineering staff when it closed its Sydney Boeing 747 heavy maintenance base in May last year.
It is also suspected Qantas has asked Air New Zealand for lists of engineers made redundant.

[Redstone]

The airline fuelled anger among staff last week when it announced plans to establish its first heavy maintenance base in Asia in partnership with Malaysia Airlines. Qantas said the new base would serve only as an "overflow" when its bases in Australia were booked out.

I wouldn't say anger, just another uneducated and badly researched "idea" from our senior management that causes one to shake ones head, anyone who is in the know will be aware that the facility they refer to in KL is itself "over flowing" work. The Malays don't have enough qualified people either.
It's the Line one debarcle all over again. I wont get into the argument of outsourcing/offshoring, but if you are going to do it for gods sake make sure there is someone with capacity out there to take up the slack!!!!!!

[Deck Zone]

You obviously don't have E&I on all three types.

[Kraaken]

Is Chris Corrigan (sp) either on the QF board now or a consultant of some description? He was lined up to be...just wondering if thats happened yet.

Be an interesting insight into the workings of the QF evil empire.

[LME-400]

You obviously don't have E&I on all three types.

Correct.

Syd HM closed before I could get my SOEs filled in.

You may know there's a joke somewhere in that last statement.

[Long Bay Mauler]

Perhaps it should also be pointed out that most QF LAMEs(Lvls 3-7) get paid less or equivalent to JetStar or Virgin LAMEs but sign for more than 1 type.

Of course there are some QF LAMEs in the upper band(10-13)who do get paid well,but it should be remembered that they are only being paid what QF wanted them to be paid.If QF didnt want or need those people trained to that degree,then they would not have compensated them to those higher levels of pay.

Maybe Joe public should read in the paper that QF LAMEs are only trying to bring themselves closer to their industry counterparts instead of being left behind on what would be considered third world wages for a highly trained positioned such as a LAME.

Opps......thats right......they do pay LAMEs the same or better in some third world countries,than here in Oz,and generally pay less tax as well.Maybe the government should think about where guys will spend their tax dollars if this is allowed to escalate and alot of guys are forced overseas.

[Pundit]

From today's media clips

As the January 9th date approaches, reports are appearing that Qantas is now offering $100,000 or USD86,500 for those willing to sign on for six-month ‘strikebreaker’ contracts.

The amount is approximately double that of current Qantas engineers.
Qantas is said to have approached current engineers in both New Zealand and former employees in Australia, cited news outlets from both countries.
The fully unionised Air New Zealand engineers are expected to turn down the lucrative offer, while a similar response is expected of those 400 engineers made redundant by Qantas last year who were also reported to have been given the offer.

Currently the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA) is requesting their annual pay rise increase 2% from the current 3% to 5%.
“We think our 5% is not only reasonable but something that all people in the company should be taking,” said Paul Cousins, ALAEA President, had previously said.

He more recently indicated his disbelief that Qantas would hold out on paying exiting staff an extra $4000 a year, and at the same time would shell out $100,000 for six-month contractors.

[Deck Zone]

I think all LAME's should take a very deep breath, open your eyes and make a rational decision. If the decision is to fight this, you need to be prepared to fight to the death of your employment. That is a real possibility and you must accept this at the start.

If QF decides to take us on this time around, you know they've made a decision to go all the way. There will be no half measures like allowing LAME's to have 4 hour stoppages and bans. They have the advantage because they know how well the members have stuck together in the past. Solidarity has not been one of our strong points.

Consider how you'll survive with no income for an undetermined period of time. Are you or can you place yourself into this position and survive?

Prepare for the worst before leaping and we may come out the other side.

Good luck to all.

[LME-400]

From today's media clips


I've put this together using the same newsfeed that "The Voice" site uses.



QANTAS Dispute Headlines (http://www.heavy-maint.org/dispute/)

[numbskull]

Strike breaker T & C's

$2 300 per week for six months. Payment from the day you sign.
$40 000 on completion of the contract.

Apart from a few training days catching up on CAR 214 training (read and sign stuff), there would be no requirement to work until the ALAEA members went on strike (or were locked out).

As was posted on another thread - Newport aviation is the company that is hiring the strikebreakers for QF. The head of Newport is the bloke who used to own Forstaff.

I can't see why QF would go to all this trouble for an OT and higher duty ban (with the odd 4 hr stop work meeting).

They have no intention of negotiating in good faith. The ALAEA executive need to spin some PR on this to show that QF is the one spoiling for a fight!!

[NMDhold]

Industrial action is for losers............
thanks, now i have your attention.
Why do we need to take industrial action?
The majority of us don't really need the 3% or 5%........hey.... we seem to have a plethora of LAMEs willing to do overtime!!!!!
The real reason we want to have the action is to stick it up the company because we're FED UP.
Sure we're overdue a payrise, and local and senior management are receiving between 8% and 60% payrises p.a.
Being LAMEs, generally we're a no nonsense bunch,
however we've been taking management on its word for too long.
To give a basic synopsis of the situation......
Qantas management have been playing us.
There seems to be a sentiment within management ranks, that people in offices make an airline work, not people on the front line.
Oh and also......
If you don't hold a degree, well....you're not really that smart are you.....
Too many times we have been told to "suck it up" - "times are dire" - "we're in it for our survival" - "our competitors are streets ahead"
Let me say this.............
"BULL****" and once again if you're hard of hearing..... "BULL****"
Qantas is a protected species
The only thing that would put Qantas's neck on the block would be a Hull loss, with the consequent loss of life and confidence.
Why don't we play it smart,
lets face it, the only thing that affects what our salary is our worth to our employer,
We have a tool at our disposal that would not require industrial action,
yet would enhance our position in the eyes of the travelling public and our worth to our employer.
This tool is diligence combined with intelligence
I propose we begin our "non industrial action" by....
Carrying out maintenance totally in accordance with the PPM / AMM
Transit, SA1, A, C, D, checks could be totally bound up in procedural red tape,
Let us use the Qantas PPM to the letter.
When you approach a Qantas aircraft,
don't ask....will it be ok for the next sector?
instead say....this condition needs further investigation...


and Don't just say it....DO IT.......


Remember..legally we are not required to get the aircraft out on time....only out Safely.

Simple things that are normally overlooked because of time constraints should now be investigated as a matter of course.
We all know there are many things that are let slide due to time constraints, lets pick up our game and make every punch count.

Soaking up manhours.....under the present conditions should be the priority of every LAME.
It could be writing every action or defect requiring attention into the appropriate medium, be it a techlog or an additional work, or a DRR,
It could be ensuring correct tooling is used, not making do with workaround situations.
It could be making sure you get your mealbreak after 5.5 hours not at the end of your shift.
It could be not making yourself available for overtime, whatever the case may be
Soaking up time is what the online techlog was designed to do! Use it!!!!!!
Imagine having a well paid super experienced engineer completing a job well done then assigning him to data entry tasks for an hour or two!!!!!!

These actions will set a standard and establish a minimum line in the sand for us.

It will also allow a framework for the paperwork trail back to the finance department showing the true worth of a Lame, and therefore to the upper management.

Another benefit to us and also the company would be that the aircraft will have greater servicability rates once the initial latent defects are cleared.



These actions.... if carried out by the majority of Lames, would send a strong signal to the "powers that be"
that we are worth a payrise,
that we are not an expendable commodity,
that we are above reproach,
that there is no contingency,
that you cannot walk away from the mess you have made,
That - You will respect us whether you like it or not.

It will be a hard slog if the challenge is taken up,
We will have the usual few who are recalcitrant and self serving, seeing opportunity at the expense of the boys holding the line.
Let's not be dulled by their lack of faith, expose them, do not cover up their transgressions.

It will take a while for it to catch on, however,
If successful, we will initiate a cultural change that will see us to the next EBA and beyond.


Who will Join us????

[Redstone]

That 40k is minus super as well Numbskull. Those who sign on better read the fine print......

[NMDhold]

Hey guys,

just thought i'd let you know about a new thread i've started,
not trying to poach readers, but would like your input on.....

Industrial action is for losers,

all the best

NMDhold

[QF22]

I just heard from a mate in BNE all leave cancelled and VR delayed indefinitely. QF are digging in ! Good Luck boys I think it's gonna get ugly !

[LAMEA380]

It is clear in print that the 40K is including super, in fact the gentlemen pointed it out to me, sounds like you are jealous , do you want a gig too, i just made a big list of things i am going to do with my money, holiday, new car, pay off the mortage, and i will be sure to smile at you whilst you are locked out

[QF22]

Assuming you live to enjoy it !

[MR WOBBLES]

Qf is currently calling to cancel all leave in jan/feb ,so turn on answering machine & dont answer the door if the postman knocks you may not like what you get.

[company_spy]

It is clear in print that the 40K is including super, in fact the gentlemen pointed it out to me, sounds like you are jealous , do you want a gig too, i just made a big list of things i am going to do with my money, holiday, new car, pay off the mortage, and i will be sure to smile at you whilst you are locked out

Don't hold your breath drongo....

[LAMEA380]

Typically thuggery, are you threatening my life, this is why you will all loose, i will not be intimidated by the like of you, in fact you will probably be the first to cave , usuakly cowards that threaten people's lives on a closed forum are spineless little weasels.

threaten all you want, you could be the one whos job i take

[QF MAINT OUTSOURCED]

it's usually cowards like yourself d!ckhead that starts threads like yourself,hiding behind a forum,why not but your name up in lights if your such a HERO.If you think you will be held in some high regard by QF management ,your also a fool.
We had some KIWI friends back in the 2001 dispute(AME's) with qf who thought thay could tough it out,not only did they leave,they headed back to NZ never to return:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

[company_spy]

You don't know what intimidation is you parasite

[QF22]

I am not threatening you're life, and am not currently employed by QF.
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!
You seem to get great delite from upsetting others, but you can't take it!
Remember the aviation industry on Oz is reasonably small, if this gets ugly, some, but not myself, will single you and your family out for SPECIAL treatment !
Mate if you can't take an innocent comment like that, DON'T BE A SCAB, coz it's gonna get a whole lot worse for the likes of you !
For short term gain, you will be branded a low life scab for the rest of your life, surely you must realise that.
I hope for all concerned it doesn't get to that, but it ain't lookin good !

[Long Bay Mauler]

:D:D:D:D:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[cementhead]

what do you expect them not to cancel leave, Id almost settle for all strikebre#kers named and shamed and all contracts cancelled SC##s

[Long Bay Mauler]

Thats right A380LAME,this is a small industry,so after the dispute you dont think that you will be still working in aviation because who in their right mind would put there reputation at risk in the short term.

People will remember who you are and you will always be referred to as "that was the bloke who was a strikebreaker in '07",followed by "Don't trust him,because he's a ...... & a ......'(Insert what you think is appropriate here).


I for one WILL NOT DOG on my mates.It might cost me some dollars,but at least I will be able to look myself and my family in the eye.And at the end of all this,I will still be employable,might not be in aviation,but I will still have a job.

So this little black duck aint scared of bad wolves like yourself,mate!!

[Long Bay Mauler]

Oh,and one other thing!!!

If I need to,I can always go on the jamroll,because with all the tax you'll be paying,I could well end up having a tax-payer funded hoilday.

God knows I have paid some tax,might be the time to recupe what I have contributed to the Aussie economy.

That will make me sleep easier when youre doing my night shift.:zzz::zzz::zzz::ok:

[mainwheel]

QF engineers have done stints on their holidays in asia in recent years. This reduced opportunities for expats that rely on contracting work. Not only employment slots but training as well. The airlines, mainly MAS, have not had to raise the rates due to availability but also have not had to offer training as part of the package.

The training part has also affected locals.

Would it now be fair for these connie's to come to QF to help them out short term, and then move on........strike or no strike.

[domo]

It looks like the company wants to play could be an expensive 2% for all concerned especially if you want to go on holidays. point is how much pain are we willing to take if these strike breakers are on qantas payrole then we have won,because we have caused them to realise that they are cronicly understaffed cant say I will be trilled to work alongside them. however if this dispute causes labour hire people to be employed in engineering then I believe it was always going to happen just happend earlier.
strap in guys might be a wild ride

[AEROMEDIC]

It's been brought to my attention that QANTAS management has put up some people to register on this site and make some comments ( like LAMEA380) to stir up the members of the ALAEA.
This thread is not the only one either, so DON'T fall for it.
For confirmation, just check our the number of posts and join date.
My source also advises that there are a couple of longer term forum users also "acting for QF"
This is just another shoddy strategy used by this company in an attempt to de-stabilise LAMES.
So steady on guys......... save the hostile words for a better time.

[Clipped]

Excellent tactics and a honourable rant NMD.

The Company knows the deep integrity of LAMEs and will play on that to manage the inherent deficiencies within its policies and self serving management. They know how difficult it is for us to prolong the ground time or even AOG an aircraft.

In light of being pushed too far, as NMD has said, we have no alternative other than to work within their constraints and above all, remain professional.

Don't forget how many managers we have seen come and go over the years, this lot are no different, they are on borrowed time.

We will persevere.

[Clipped]

Spot on Aero,

Those posts are blatantly obvious same mgmt rhetoric of instilling fear, division and destabilising a decent bunch of guys.

I don't think too many of these managers are going to have a very nice New Year.

[reflux]

Aeromedic, you raise a good point, but note my own start date and I am not qf management - I'm very much up for the long haul, and I'm quite the realist/pessimist in regard to where this is headed.
I think you'll find a lot of LAMEs have signed on to relieve some pressure that's been building, and hopefully they keep plenty in the tank for when it is really needed.
Don't be spooked by anonymous posts on here. They are not personal, but a destabilising tactic employed by the other side. Try to use a logical argument and put the focus back on the poster. Keep the high moral ground, it can then be used against them. I hope I am wrong, but this is gonna get nasty.
Enjoy the next week and don't give anyone (management) to point a finger at you. If asked to act as senior, say you have just realised the legal ramifications regarding ohas issues and have not had the required training.
If asked to do o/t, then you have just opened your fourth beer, or if at work when asked you have to take your car for servicing. If you say "no I can't ecause of ind. action", then you give them a chance to escalate the dispute. Remember, we want to win this, so don't stoop to their low levels. Be professional at all times - it will count in our favour.
They talk about acting in good faith, but say the ALAEA was organising a ballot for ind. action so were not really acting in good faith. However at the same time they were accusing us of not acting in good faith they announce a joint MRO venture in Malaysia...good faith? They are also actively recruiting a scab work force...good faith? The tech school is also out of commission as the are doing a project for management "for when you LAMEs go on strike"...good faith? Has any one even mentioned strike? I assumed the stop work provision was a last resort for when qf got heavy handed.

[whitenite]

Nice post mate and couldn't agree more. Can you print it out and pin it up at work. I will. These are exactly the things that will hurt, but questions will be asked as to why these are not normal occurences. See, the bean counters and management (that's MH and up) have never done our job and they assume that we do this (that's follow the pm to the letter) every minute of every day. They don't realise that we are making a silk purse out of a sow's ear every time we go to work. They honestly believe that we follow the pm to the letter all the time. I know what you are thinking. And I know I have repeated myself, but we have been our own worst enemy and it's time to change that. And if they start to dock wages for people doing their job in the way that the regulator (CASA), the company and the manufacturer have prescribed, then who do you think the public will back?

[Anulus Filler]

NMD.....That gave me a FAT!!:):E:E

[numbskull]

I don't think you will be working along side them Domo. They will only be working if you guys aren't.

Thats how it was explained to me by Resumedomain. They even said I might not even have to work at all if the dispute was resolved (and would still collect the $100k).

There is nothing more un-Australian than someone that will shaft a mate when he's in need.

Personally, I wouldn't trust such a morally deficient mob. The waterside scabs got shafted after the waterfront dispute and I expect any LAME scabs will as well.

I don't think anyone has to worry about LAMEA380 signing out aircraft. I think he works in a cozy office somewhere and wouldn't know the difference between a MEL and a MEC.

Go hard guys!!

[chemical alli]

mainwheel.
whilst qf gingerbeers have done stints at mas, all these jobs were advertised through contractors. i think you will also find that most of the contractual rates, were increased due to said engineers not accepting the first offer.
as for the local workforce (who is transitory at best)and will leave at the drop of the hat to cross the border to siaec.most of these guys actually learn a great deal from said qf engineers.


To resumedomain.com wannabe,s , Take the money and show up. If the offer is too good to be true,then it probably is.

lameA380. we will welcome you with open arms ,dont worry you are as safe as houses and no respecting lame will threaten goad or even intimidate you.

By your posts you are the one who seems to have a chip on said shoulder and are openely encouraging violence.we will not be locked out so you better play nice, as you will be working side by side. to all else, keep cool dont be goaded by stooges and keep the respect.we have a plan so stick to it.hang loose but tough

[MUNT]

This sounds somewhat similar to the "Army Of One" post a couple of years ago.

[chemical alli]

also guys this 100k talk is a farce.its actually 60k,paid as weekly pay and then your arse is at call and you only collect the 40k extra if the pia last the full six months

[mainwheel]

CA,
So if the jobs in australia are advertised through an agency, it's OK.
Isn't that the case here, resumedomain etc..

[Deck Zone]

:=Aeromedic. I would think there are many LAME's that have never subscribed to this forum until now due to the potential action that may happen. Please don't assume all new comers are Management stooges.

[ata 38 32]

chemical dont let truth get in the way of a good story,$200,000 pa for a strikebreaker is a good headline

[chemical alli]

have i said dont apply ? just until you know what youre posting about then beware ,you will be shown for the stooge you are .mainwheel relax take it easy come and enjoy.stick your toe in first the water is fine,also qf lames were not breaking strikes at mas,they were mearly filling a void that any lame be it here or europe could apply for.

[MENDAERO]

So if the jobs in australia are advertised through an agency, it's OK.
Isn't that the case here, resumedomain etc..

Are the malaysian engineers in dispute?

mainwheel, Qantas have in the past had fixed term contractor's and can use casual/part time labour. Do not compare resumedomain strikebreakers to the contractors in Malaysia.

A question mainwheel, why would QE want unlimited casual, part time, fixed term labour when it has never fully utilized the provisions they currently have.
Demanding unlimited, without discussing a change to the current 5% is not negotiation!

[chemical alli]

just had my leave cancelled,oh well back to the office,no happy family holidays.guess my morale just took a boost.hello planning,print me some more dr&r,s please.lets see make it a 100,then again lets just round it off to 200

[MENDAERO]

Remember to err on the side of caution!

Hey that tire is out of round, better change it

It's a bit flat spotted, better change it

I've considered the aircrafts schedule and per the amm I can relax the limit, meaning in this case i'd better change it even though it's got 1/4 inch of tread

Hey the paints peeling better snag it and raise an MGTR and recall it

Hey the HPSOV wont work, thats OK I can MEL it, but its the muscle line thats broken, which isn't covered by the MEL, better order the the line and wait for it to come from AVV.


As NMDhold said read the PPM.

You can't record an action in the defect column of a DR&R, all maintenance must be recorded. Eg you have to request part to be removed (defect) and sign to say you have removed it (action) then raise another DR&R for the refit (defect).

If it's not done the correct way raise a form 500!

[MENDAERO]

CA,

Put another leave form in, go see the planner everyday! it can't hurt, they can only say no.

For that matter everyone put leave forms in, including the ames, test the water to see if they will let the ame's off, if they wont tell your union, they only said LAME's couldn't have leave. Any help you can give.

[nite walker]

3 years ago cabin crew held a stop work meeting. a majority of the Line Managers (flying cabin crew managers) acted as strike breakers and operated during the stop work meeting.

Three months later the Line Managers job was made redundant.They were forced back to flying, their ground managers positions gone!

Their loyalty to the Company was aptly rewarded.

[satos]

To those of you planning to take up qantas's offer and work as a scab.Remember this industry is small and it will be probably the last aviation job you will work in this country.Once they know a scab is amongst the ranks no one will work with you and I doubt any reputable employer will take you on because of all the grief it will cause them.
You must ask yourself,is your aviation career worth it.

[Deck Zone]

:=NMD. I and many others may take exception to one of your lines "The majority of us don't really need the 3% or 5%........hey.... we seem to have a plethora of LAMEs willing to do overtime!!!!!"

That may be the case for the majority (long term QF LAME's) but don't forget the lower grade LAME's. Some of these people have been with the other Airline and are starting again up the long ladder. Most of these LAME's do need the 3 or 5% and they've been in the industry for 30 to 40 years.

Having said that, I agree with your suggested tactic. :ok:

[Kraaken]

NMD......your post comes with good timing........hang in their LAME's your fight is a just one against Darth Dickson and the greed that is devouring an Australian icon and a way of life.

[MENDAERO]

3 years ago cabin crew held a stop work meeting. a majority of the Line Managers (flying cabin crew managers) acted as strike breakers and operated during the stop work meeting.

I'd like to see our managers out there maintaining and certifying A/C.

Thats right! you need to be a LICENSED AIRCRAFT MAINTENANCE ENGINEER!

So come on down DC, MH, RH, DM, GH ETC

As for KM and NG, if you think you can substantiate 6 months of License utilization in the last 2 years, we are prepared to challenge that, we will lodge our cross reports, notify CASA, how's about we test the validity of your License!

CMAA manager GJ licensed?

I'm sure we will see GN from Boro's though, he actually uses his license. maybe he can lose his position after the strikebreaking.