So where are all the jobs then?

[The Mixmaster]

THERE ARE NO JOBS and there WILL BE NO JOBS for several years

Not true. Quite a few schools recruiting FI's at the moment for the summer.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its not illegal for a flying school to tell you that airlines have 20 pilots per aircraft and that they will be needing pilots. Its wrong. But its not illegal.

The airline industry is going to contract and consolodate. Therefore some airlines will cease trading and their pilots will become unemployed. Experienced unemployed pilots have usually been seen as a far more desireable recruit than an inexperienced pilot seeking a first job.

Everythings in LASORS:

LASORS: LASORS 2008 | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1591)

[The Mixmaster]

Scratching.....that may be the case. However if noobs only look at airline jobs right now they'll undoubtedly be disappointed. Nothing wriong with lowering your sights to get hours in the logbook, there's a whole world of GA out there too you know!

[ER_ZZZ]

Down under here in OZ everyone does the GA work and most say this part of their flying was the most enjoyable.

First turboprop job normally comes as an FO with 1500 hr's, and first command turboprop around 2000 hr's.

First jet job??. At the moment probably another 2 year wait:confused:

[disco87]

Seat1A....isnt 2011/12 a bit optimistic?

[Sciolistes]

Not everyone can up sticks and move to India or China for work, as you get older family ties can make it difficult. Its easy to do such moves when you are young, single and looking for your first job.
If you want a flight job in aviation then you can't burden yourself with constraints such as your eventual location. You need to be prepared to take the first opportunity that presents itself.

We took the plunge a year ago and it has been the best experience of our lives. The kids are in an international school and loving it. We have a lifestyle that would not be achievable in the UK unless on a bankers pension and the flying job itself is extremely rewarding and challenging.

Take my advice, don't close any doors.

[A10Warthog]

Rated on both caravan and kingair. Close to 2000tt, cant get a desent paying job anywere.

Started taking autocad classes, need to get a paying job soon.:mad:

[atpcliff]

Hi.

I have a wife, and 2 kids, in grades 7 and 5, and live in Wisconsin. I was laid off in Dec from a small, US airline.

I just started a new job in NBO. My first rotation is: 165 days on/30 off.

It was the only job I could get...I'm relatively low time for today's job market...
4000+ total time
3000+ fixed wing/me jet
1000+ pic me jet
1400+ night
750+ actual instrument
2 me jet type ratings, and without any glass jet experience, or type ratings in anything new.

It is tough right now, but better than 1991 and better than 2001.

[nBX0]

So where are you now? I see your post is a couple of years ago.
About 23 years ago I did what you did and now after 12,000+ hours on CASA 212, Embraer E120, Jetstream J31, DC-8, B727, B737, B747 and B747-400....after crap pay at 5 of my 8 airlines including losing my jobs due to furloughs and bankruptcies at 4 of them....after spending most of those years unsure of my future and fighting for decent pay and working conditions...after finally landing my dream job on the third interview 11 years after the first, then losing it 8 years later to Chapter 7 along with my hoped for 3000/mo pension as well as 2/3 of my rather small 401K I am now 57 years old with no job and no prospects....I'm collecting unemployment and I feel like a failure but I don't know what I'd do different if I had it to do all over again.

[Sindree]

Wow, atpcliff.

After I read your post, I realize that I have to settle down with driving a cab for a few years.
After thinking long and hard about CFI vs not trying to teach someone stuff that I my self have trouble with, I came to the conclusion that I will let someone who knows the stuff should do it instead.. Hehe (Not to say that everyone who become a CFI after their CPL suck, but I know a lot of them that don't, and a lot of them hate what they do.)

But I digress. I hope to just get a job flying some para jumpers or something like that.. At least here in the states you can get a job as that, dragging banners, etc.

Anyways, all the best to you guys with all the hours, and hopefully there will be a something for us low-timers to pick up in a few years.

[Barefootsailing]

They seem to be getting some jobs. Many overseas, some in the US.
I signed up, they are a new site so they are keeping it free for now. Job post seem well organized.
I'm sending stuff out to everybody too, gets old with 15,000+ hours and nobody calls......again after multiple furloughs. I did get some response by overseas operators off this site but I'm not sure my wife will be willing to put up with that.

[manageflight]

Dont you worry, I feel the same in the accounting profession. I am a damn good qualified accountant and facing the same plight. No work for 6 months and with 15 years solid experience in top blue chip multinationals and its also all about who you know and the old boys club.

I have always wanted to be a pilot but have not had the guts to invest in anything more than PPL.

I would swop my 7 years of study and qualifications anyday for a job in the airlines but like in all interviews, it does not matter how brilliant you are... all you need to do is say one thing that does not hold sway with their views or ideals (and who know what they are its like a persons religion could be anything) and its like a long tight rope you can so easily slip off and out of the running.

How is the market and long term effect from the Credit Crunch? Is it very much worse and more risky than investing in a pilot career at time of sept 11 2001 ?

I never know when its a good time for anything it seems to be the luck of the draw as to what the market will be like when you complete all the training.

[Lyndon24]

Can anyone tell me what other budget Airlines offer the cadetship programmes which involve me heftying out 30 000 Euro,..any idea how many people that go through this process are not inducted into the company?? What other companys have similar programme besides Ryan Air?? Thanks

[nuclear weapon]

My friend save your thirty grand for the main time and wait youre still young and have a bit of time.

[EarthSun]

Hello there,

I read a lot messages in this thread.
To sum up: get experience, contacts, do not buy TR, buy TR...
Everyone has its own opinion.

What I can say about me and what I think:

I am a young flight instructor (24y/o) I am going to work for a FTO where we teach many cadets.
What is funny, these cadets will become airline pilot before me with less experience... sometimes I think WTF ??? welcome to the aviation's world where the logic does not exist!
I have passed my CPL/IR 2 years ago. Then I send out many cv, of course without any responses.
When I read this thread, I was telling to myself: ok, next step:
MCC or FI ? TR or not ?
I do not have rich parents and I am not rich.
So the question of the TR was resolved.
I had to think about the MCC or FI course. The price was not exactly the same but there was no huge difference.

I decided to take the FI course. Why ?
- I thought, why should I do a MCC if I do not fly right away ?
- FI is a great job and I would fly everyday maybe.
- I am in France, only a few people want to be a FI, because the pay is crap and most FI's here are volunteers, and young students want to fly a Big Jet.

So I did the FIC, and by chance I get a job right away and was paid! it was a full time job in a flying club.

Then I did my MCC.

With my experience I work in a FTO. That's my history.

What I think:

- I do no regret my FI ticket, seriously even if I would like to fly big jet, my FI rating helped me a lot. Without it I do not know where I would be...Maybe I would work in a shop or maybe as a flight dispatcher, I don't know. BUT what I know for sure, I would never have had hundred hours in one year without my rating.

Sometimes I am happy, sometimes I am disappointed. That's normal we all have our up and down moments...
I am happy to fly, to teach, to be paid for that.

When I am disappointed, I prefer to say discouraged, it is when you see your friends be called by the companies where you did send a cv too, but no response.
When you see your friends (a lot) buying a TR and get a job.
And you still fly a single engine piston...

I am happy for them, but I work hard, and it is hard sometimes to see others have job with less experience and work than you.

It is true, some companies will pay you a TR.

But when I see in this thread, " start in JAR23 aircraft, and later try JAR25"
I want to say, most of JAR23 operators ask a TR. (BEECH 90, 1900 etc).
I have met more friends buying a TR and get a job than friends with TR offered by a company.

My advice for those who are not rich.

Try to get a FI rating. You will learn a lot.
And when I see cadets, futur airline pilot with 200 hours, seriously it makes me scared. They fly a/c without understand what they are doing...
It is not their fault, the courses are shorter, and today the basic flights are considered less important compared to IR for example.

As a FI you will learn a lot of things and you will experience that you knew just what you needed to know for any test as a student before.
You will improve your self confidence, meet a lot of people.

I know we all want to be in a big jet jsut after school. But it is not easy, it takes time, months or years. Keep flying. Things will happen with time and experience.
And think that a plane is just a plane with gear, fuselage and wings.
Once you will know your A320/737 by heart, you will want to change again to 340 or 777.

Being human need objectives. As long as you have an objective you will keep faith and live.
Be patient, be good even if you are disappointed or sad, discouraged, do not show this to people, discuss with your girlfriend or best friend in private but show the good mood in the aviation's world.

[Option C]

To sum up: get experience, contacts, do not buy TR

I agree EarthSun.
Did anyone see this months edition of the BALPA magazine The Log? In it there is an article about 'How to survive the recession' and one of the points it makes is NOT to pay for a type rating without the prospect of a job at the end. Sound advice.

[skydrftr]

One fine hot summer afternoon there was a Cessna 150 flying in the pattern at a quiet country airfield. The Instructor was getting quite bothered with the student's inability to maintain altitude in the thermals and was getting impatient at sometimes having to take over the controls. Just then he saw a twin engine Cessna 402 5,000 ft. above him and thought, "Another 1,000 hrs of this and I qualify for that twin charter job! Aaahh.. to be a real pilot going somewhere!"

The 402 was already late and the boss told him this charter was for one of the Company's premier clients. He'd already set MCT and the cylinders didn't like it in the heat of this summer's day. He was at 6,000 ft. and the winds were now a 20kt headwind. Today was the 6th day straight and he was pretty dang tired of fighting these engines. Maybe if he got 10,000 ft. out of them the wind might die off... geez those cylinder temps! He looked out momentarily and saw a B737 leaving a contrail at 33,000 ft. in the serene blue sky. "Oh man," he thought, "My interview is next month. I hope I just don't blow it! Outta G/A, nice jet job, above the weather... no snotty passengers to wait for ..."

The 737 bucked and weaved in the heavy CAT at FL330 and ATC advised that lower levels were not available due to traffic. The Captain, who was only recently advised that his destination was below RVR minimums, had slowed to LRC to try and hold off a possible in-flight diversion, and arrange an ETA that would helpfully ensure the fog had lifted to CAT II minima. The Company negotiations broke down yesterday and looked as if everyone was going to take a dang pay cut. The F/O's will be particularly hard hit as their pay wasn't anything to speak of any way. Finally deciding on a speed compromise between LRC and turbulence penetration, the Captain looked up and saw Concorde at Mach 2+. Tapping his F/O's shoulder as the 737 took another bashing, he said "Now THAT'S what we should be on... huge pay ... super fast... not too many routes...not too many legs... above the CAT... yep! What a life...!"

FL590 was not what he wanted anyway and he considered FL570. Already the TAT was
creeping up again and either they would have to descend or slow down.. That dang rear fuel
transfer pump was becoming unreliable and the F/E had said moments ago that the radiation meter was not reading numbers that he'd like to see. Concorde descended to FL570 but the radiation was still quite high even though the Notam indicated hunky dory below FL610. Fuel flow was up and the transfer pump was intermittent. Evening turned into night as they passed over the Atlantic. Looking up, the F/O could see a tiny white dot moving against the backdrop of a myriad of stars. "Hey Captain" he called as he pointed. "Must be the Shuttle. "The Captain looked for a moment and agreed. Quietly he thought how a Shuttle mission, while complicated, must be the-be-all-and-end-all in aviation. Above the crap, no radiation problems, no dang fuel transfer problems...aaah. Must be a great way to earn a buck."

Discovery was into its 27th orbit and perigee was 200ft out from nominated rendezvous altitude with the commsat. The robot arm was virtually U/S and a walk may become necessary. The 200ft predicted error would necessitate a corrective burn and Discovery needed that fuel if a walk was to be required. Houston continually asked what the Commander wanted to do but the advice they proffered wasn't much help. The Commander had already been 12 h ours on station sorting out the problem and just wanted 10 minutes to himself to take a leak. Just then a mission specialist, who had tilted the telescope down to the surface for a minute or two, called the Commander to the scope. "Have a look at this Sir, isn't this the kinda flying you said you wanted
to do after you finish up with NASA?" The Commander peered through the telescope and cried Ooooohhhhh yeah! Now THAT'S flying! Man, that's what its all about! Geez
I'd give my left arm just to be doing THAT down there!"

What the Discovery Commander was looking at was a Cessna 150 in the pattern at a
quiet country airfield on a nice bright sunny afternoon.

Author unknown

[baz76]

I have been reading this thread and others for quite sometime now. I am trying to understand how come there are no jobs when there i are so many cheap airlines out there. There must be other options for people rather than becoming airline pilot. But on this forum, what I can see is there is no scope after the training since there are no jobs as flying intruscotrs, no jobs for pilots, 1000s of pilots are out there waiting to get jobs. Does this mean that people like me who have always wanted to be a pilot (not necessarily airline pilot) loose hope and forget about it?

[tommoutrie]

...yes....

[flightlevel1985]

Skydrftr that was a nice read :ok:

Puts it all into perspective hey :eek:

[tommoutrie]

which concord captain was earning bucks and saying dang? And how did he become a concord captain if he thought there would be no radiation in space?

Keep looking for work. It took me four years after qualifying to get my first job and I've gone through quite a few now. The company I was working for went bust during summer 2008 and I've only recently started working again. The shrinkage in aviation means that newbies are up against some very experienced pilots even for quite junior jobs. But from an employers perspective its not always best to go for the bloke with most hours because the salary is more, the likelyhood of them leaving is greater, and sometimes ingrained habits don't fit the new business. So emphasise your flexibility, demonstrate a willingness to be involved, make sure you can live anywhere, and keep sending CV's and making phone calls even if there are no job adverts because the last thing that a company is going to waste money on right now is an advert for a pilots vacancy. Stick on a suit, go visit people - not airlines because they won't be interested, but all the smaller operators.

Also, help out everyone you can because other pilots are not your competition and this industry is a very very small world. During your career, someone, somewhere will help you out in return. So don't s**t on anyone.

Good luck!

[baz76]

That was encourging but your answer to my question was not :-)

[Flintstone]

You may not like Tom's answer to your question....Does this mean that people like me who have always wanted to be a pilot (not necessarily airline pilot) loose (sic) hope and forget about it?.....but it was a correct answer. People do lose hope and forget about a career in aviation.

Not quite sure what sort of answer you were seeking other than a truthful one.

[batman123]

people don't lose hope, people are forced to leave and give up.


between:

- having a family and a car, and a normal life ...

OR

-paying a company to work with no life and NO money, and reach 50-60 years and still be poor with no women interested by you.


what do you chose?

[DeltaT]

very true indeed

[Epic_mg]

If people continue to pay for the privilege of employment (an obsured concept ), then it appears the best method to aquire a jet/turboprop position is a fat cheque book.
"Oh and its not what you know its who you know". If I could gain a pound for everytime thats been mentioned!!!!!!

[cessnagirl]

Batman, you're right. Make the best of things. Life's what you make of it.

Epic, I understand you're p!55ed off, I've come accross the type of people you talk about, but really that attitude won't do you any good.

There's alot of new talent out there who can't get a start. It goes with the territory and we knew what we were letting ourselves in for.

Just my 2 cents worth, again

[wobble2plank]

Boys and Girls,

Wake up and smell the coffee. Look around at the current economic climate and the actions of major national carriers.

Voluntary and compulsory redundancy are abound. This will lead to an overspill of qualified, trained and experienced pilots in the workforce. Add to that that many schemes are written to offer new positions to those who have lost their jobs.

The bottom end of the market is fed by the slow movement of pilots between companies and aircraft. That doesn't happen at the moment. People are clinging desperately to their jobs.

If the upswing kicks in I don't think air travel will ever be the same again. With Government taxes making it even more expensive to leave the country plus, when the interest rates start going up along with the fuel price, the price of tickets will also rise. Bigger, longer range aircraft, worse crewing regulations and short rest stops are going to decimate the required number of pilots.

I've been in the industry for 20 years now. I wouldn't recommend it to my son, nor to anyone else.

You pays yer money and takes yer choice.

[Gazeem]

I remember similar posts when I was training in 2001-03 and job hunting in 2003.

Yes experienced pilots are laid off, but some never actually get made redundant and other get in effect early retirement and so are often removed from the pool of qualified pilots out there.

Also the qualified laid off pilots often quickly get taken on by other employers or reemployed by there original carriers, this receives little or no attention from the media or posters.

If you are newly qualified or finishing training keep the faith I suspect that when it does start moving...

As for longer, bigger aircraft, well I think they are more crew intensive if anything. Need to nightstop crews and the longer sectors mean that crews reach their monthly and annual limits with less flights.

[Benny1worldwide]

First off everyone has to deal with getting on somewhere. Times have been rather tough and airlines have a larger pilot group to recruite from. I think you should change your attitude and stop bitching about how you didn't get picked up right away. Just go with the flow. If you walk into an interview acting like your entitled to a job, you might as well admit to a drinking problem cause no one will higher you.

[100LL81]

Don't ever go near a plane again then. 1 more job for those of us willing to stick it out. We need people like you to quit or it would be even harder to find a job.

[wobble2plank]

Gazeem,

As for longer, bigger aircraft, well I think they are more crew intensive if anything. Need to nightstop crews and the longer sectors mean that crews reach their monthly and annual limits with less flights.

Sorry, but you are living in a dream world if you think that is the case. Although crewing on the 777 or the 744 is at about 11-12 crews per aircraft (soon to be reduced to on average 10-11), the 380 and its stretched brethren will ALL be crewed in exactly the same manner but have more seats and, thus, less regularity. All told, less hulls therefore less pilots. Bad for pilots and, IMHO, bad for passengers as they lose the luxury of regularity.

Add to that the reduction of down route rest times, loss of the 'heavy' crew on many routes and the proliferation of 2 pilot long haul routes and the picture doesn't look too rosy.

The demise of the down route rest times has been going on for years and the CAA CAP restrictions are not about to be changed. Ask anyone who has flown the Globespan JNB route what minimum turnaround can be.

[C-141Starlifter]

CAPT,

What type of pilot's are you recruiting?

[dartagnan]

I am a recruiter as well, and most CV go to trash, specially the one from pilots who said who have done "integrated"...
I don' read them anymore, If I see any Oxford, it goes directly to trash and no answer of course!

[pilotmike]

dartagnan:

And there I was thinking that it was your CVs that always 'go to trash'.

With your rather staggering claims of weilding great power over wanabe pilots, combined with a blatantly vindictive crusade against integrated-trained pilots, this appears to be a classic case of 'how the persecuted persecute.'

Or possibly delusional dreams of grandeur and power? I must admit I had to re-read this rather unbelievable post many times to check that I hadn't misunderstood your English. Then I checked it wasn't 1st April...

Your moaning posts seldom fail to irritate, but this one catapults you into a whole new league.

[BigNumber]

Mike, I am confident 'Dartagnan' has never even glanced forward of the cockpit door!

If I was a betting man, I'd reckon he is purely voicing frustration with his own untenable position. Perhaps an evening on MS FS might quench his thirst! More, if he gets dressed up in some gold bars for an added dose of reality. His 'Back patted', he could then head down to 'Bar Med' on Tuesday and see if he can pick up a young impressionable lovely!:yuk:

[Deano777]

dartagnan is talking out his @rse :mad:

[bucko55]

I have 16000 hours airline flying around the world. The job sucks and If I were you I would definately give it up. I have the Uk ATPL first time pass. Means jack.

The job sucks and just find another profession and do the flying part time.

I have a son and I will not be recommending a career in the aviation industry but yes I would teach him to fly for fun.
Good luck

[Proby]

It's true.... times are very tough out there but if you are looking to relocate abroad things are "less bad". I'm looking for a PC-12 pilot w/ >800h experience for a 12 month locate in Asia should anyone know of anyone.

[onCloud9]

So why aren't we all to applying to the RAF? Surely they could use some (pre-trained) CPL/ME/IR guys?? Flying is flying after all.....

[BigNumber]

Why? I am confident that you will find that it is impossible to 'buy' a 500 hour Military Line Training package! Although ATP might be able to correct me.

( and yes, I did 10 years service. )

[pipertommy]

Because I am 33 years old:(

[baz76]

bucko55

can you please explain in detail why this job sucks.

[JulietEchoTango]

Whatever happened to Vito? Did he heed some of the harsh but truthful advice offered? Reading the posts of pilots seeking the holy grail of airline flying, I'd like to offer a different prospective. A friend went through the ranks, GA, ag pilot, floatplane pilot and finally landed his dream job flying a shiny new 737-800.
He quit after 9 months. "This isn't flying" he said. And went happily back to single engine turboprop. Not everyone is suited to or embraces the style of flying demanded by the operators of many of the so called 'low cost' airlines. Listen to the pilots out there (eg the poster of 'why this job sucks') much more informative than ground school hype. Take onboard the views from many different sources, and you may find that the perfect aviation job for you might not necessarily be in a passenger jet. ;)

[Fireboy]

I am slowly giving up hope of finding a flying job, I now instruct part-time around my full-time job.

When the industry turns a corner who do you think will be hired first, newbies, instructors or pilots with time on type with multi crew experience. I think instructors and experienced pilots. So where does that leave the guys with a new frozen ATPL? The schools are still knocking out pilots with no job at the end of training, when do these guys think they will get a job?

No doubt this has already been covered, but some fresh comments would be nice.

[Fireboy]

That sounds like some positive advice.

[Chippybus]

If the government continues to tax the industry to death it, which it will do eventually, is this a cunning plan so not many people travel abroad but spend their money in the UK ! The amount spent on holidays abroad would be spent in the UK by the low earners and the big earners just pay a shed load more indirect tax.

A family of five travelling to Florida pay £1000 in tax before fuel charges (why is this still being charged?) then they have the price of the ticket. The industry is going to go backwards quickly in this country. If you want to fly you will need to relocate.

[JulietEchoTango]

Dartagnan,
I've read some of your posts and instead of heaping criticism upon you, what I'd like to know is, if many of the cv's you receive are put into the trash as you say, what can a applicant do to ensure his cv not only gets read but also receives a positive outcome? What are recruiters looking for? What makes one cv stand out from the others? This information may assist pilots in obtaining useful training, presenting themselves in the correct light and prevent wasting the time of all concerned.
Thanks.

[dragstar]

Got my wings about a year ago. just before hell broke loose. Haven't flown since then at all. Joined my old job back sometime ago. Was hesitant to go through the FI programme because of cash crunch and non availability of FI jobs Where do i stand when in a few months time recruitment starts again. I am sure people with more current experience will have an edge. that just means all the effort and the moeny is down the drain.

[BigNumber]

Definitely, however when 1000 hours on type is in 'plump supply' there still is nothing doing for most wannabes.

I honestly cannot recall the last advert in 'Flight' that I have seen for a Genuine low hour, non typed, job opening. Anyone seen something I didn't?

I believe the book has been re-written, the accountants have won, pay to fly is very much here to stay.

[SpreadEagle]

Small flaw to the advice above. I could drop a further 6 or 7 grand on an instructor rating, but there aren't any instructor jobs either. Especially for someone with no instructional experience. Right now you can't even put your foot on the first rung. :ugh:

I know loads of people all doing instructor ratings right now, having all just finished an integrated course. Unfortunately for the last year, everyone else has left and thought, what can I do? Oh yeah, an instructor rating. Looks great on the CV, keeps me current etc etc. I would happily spend the money on this, if I thought for a second I might be employed at the end of it. I asked a guy the other day if he wanted a pilot for long distance ferrying. He told me he wanted ... wait for it ... 5000 hours!

The first airline to recruit offering a TR is going to be innundated. I just hope they don't detect the stench of desperation wafting from me. :(

[Artie Fufkin]

With regards to Dartagnan's claims to be in recruitment and binning all integrated CVs;

18 months ago (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/308843-pilots-3.html#post3850731) our "friend" was a frustrated instructor, who went out and bought an A320 rating and had been looking for work for 10 months.

In the 18 months since this post he has not only found work but he has also been so impressive at his job, he has made it into the recruitment team.

Dartagnan, how stupid do you think we are? :=

[epsum]

There are still jobs. Most certainly not-so-many or easy to get, but there are.
I claim this, because I was that lucky guy who found it.

Finished via modular route last summer, the company, who's ab-initios we were, was closed down, so we found ourselves literally on the streets- and then the job market collapsed.

After numerous CV's and endless 'social chatting' found two places.. partly sponsored instructor route, or office clerk job in business jets.. Choosed second option and hoped..

Finally, at the end of may, went to the typerating course of LR60 and now attending on line training.

You dont have to got 5000 hours to get a job. You dont need to pay your own typerating and linetraining to get your first flying job. You dont need to go to RYR to get a job. Its all about who knows you and who might get you a tip, when any job, which may end in the cockpit.
As a wannabe, I can only suggest, prove yourself. Clean a/c, work in office, let the bosses know you, who you are and that you are reliable.. and you can get in..

Best of luck..

[indiana_jones]

Hi Proby,

I just saw your post today, is this job still available? pls pm me contacts if still in need of a PC12 pilot. I have 3300 TT, 1100 jet time, CRJ 200/700/900 type rating, FAA flight instructor... and, yes, I'm ready to fly a Pilatus and relocate!

[The mole]

Job opportunities worldwide are shrinking.
SSTR is here to stay and will only become more prevalant
If you are bright enough, look at other careers that pay more and do a PPL and fly for fun. The days of long stopovers and good pay and conditions are long gone.
My advice - do not undertake commercial flying training until (if) the market improves. Also, if you are not related to someone already a pilot, SERIOUSLY consider if it is likely you will get a job.
You will also grow older and perhaps wiser and realise that it ain't like you thought it would be.
I am lucky. I earn enough in a different industry and instruct for enjoyment.
And finally, do not comment on PPRUNE that you only need an iron will and persistence etc etc to get a job until you have comparative number of ATPL's issued vs employment numbers. Do the sums

[Gavin53]

So in essence....would people quite simply agree that this period - which may last for the next 2 years - is the worst period to even think about getting a flying job?
Some of us may not agree?

Is it just that simple at the moment?

Might put training off and do a post grad for a year in some hole somewhere!

[BigNumber]

Hi Gav,

Now is a really bad time to be looking for a job, but not necessarily a poor time to be 'starting' training.

A measured approach to training, (carefully managing the budget), and 'trying' to time completion with the market up swing might be the way ahead?

Why are you looking at a 'post grad' as opposed to finding a job to put some cash in the training funds bank?

[sid Otoole]

I tooke particular note of your frustration in regard to getting a job. Back in 1972 there were no jobs either after going through the same stuff and cost heaps of money, the result of a lot of after hours work.

There a lot of other opportunities in aviation and with your flight training experience it will open a lot of other opportunities. All you have to be is determined to the max. I went into the then Aust DCA as a flight service officer and got a break into air safety investigation in PNG after a hell of a lot of phone calls but having said that you need some flight experience or other comensurate aviation experience to supplement your flight time and training. It is not easy and if you are engineeringly inclined and have a determined personal nature you too can achieve the same result.

Dont give up. An Aviation career can cover many disciplines but you have to be determined enough to ride out the tough stuff. How old are you.???

[james1013]

I'm up to 1 year and counting. (looking for my first flying job that is)

Any training captains, influential pilots or club CFIs reading this, if you give me a job then I'll refit your bathroom for free, ex-tradesman so experienced and very good, you pay for the materials thou! (I've tried everything else to get a job, so I may as well try this!. The last year has taught me that getting a job isn't based on merit, it's who you know and huge slice of luck....i've had no luck and have no airline contacts...doh!) :ugh:

frozen ATPL (ME CPL IR) and FI rating, IR valid until 22/07/2010.

[Silly Pilot]

Vito,

Chin up mate. This disease you have in your blood stream is called Aviation. I am guessing you are not married yet, but later on in Aviation just when you think you are making a living, you may contract A.I.D.S., also known as Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome.
Did the schools show you pictures of an airline pilot standing next to a big jet with flight bag in hand and a neat hat?

I am guessing by your post with all those years of flying (two) and a kings ransom handed over to flying schools that things are not moving fast enough for you. After another four or five years you will look back and refer to these years as the slave days, paying dues, kissing butt, getting calls at 11:00pm for an all nighter, washing, waxing, learning the fine art of bright work, pumping gas, towing planes, flying airmed (tossing the carcus), flying traffic watch, counting or shooting coyotes while flying. If you mange to live through the slave years you may make a respectable pilot and then have logged enough time to actually apply to and get another job. But even then aviation is very un-expectable, you never know whether you will have a job from one day to the next, just when you think you have the tiger by the tale, POOF! the job is gone and you are asking mom and dad for help again.

I flew privately for 20 years and then decided to change careers and fly professionally, sold the home that my wife, daughter and I lived in, sold 5 acres on a 4300' paved airstrip, finished my ratings, moved back into my first home (2br/1ba) and started pumping gas and kerosene at the airport and still put in another three or four years that I considered the slave days before having a respectable job flying. Every time I felt I had a good job, it went away. Lately, shooting coyotes from a plane is sounding like a great job.

But look on the bright side, after about 15 years you can come back to this board (or what ever online will look like then) and post a post like this one to share your hard earned wisdom with the newly printed pilots that can not figure out why the big airline companies are not throwing job offers at them.

Wanting to fly is a paralyzing sickness... but chicks dig it! :}

[Bealzebub]

towing planes, flying airmed (tossing the carcus), flying traffic watch, counting or shooting coyotes while flying.
I am guessing you haven't been out of the US much?

if you give me a job then I'll refit your bathroom for free, ex-tradesman so experienced and very good, you pay for the materials thou! (I've tried everything else to get a job, so I may as well try this!.

Pay for materials? This is not what happens in 2009! You refit the bathroom, and pay for the materials which I will supply at retail cost. Then you go in a hold pool where I might use your services in the future if nobody else is available to provide them at their own cost.

[Avturbound]

I have just spent the last 30 mins reading back on all the posts about, "Aviation will be the death of you", "get out whilst you can" and so on so forth. Let me put it from a young aviation enthusiast. Before I continue I would just like to say for all the people that post negative comments about getting jobs, its to hard, or that want to get to the big 777 and fly Airlines one day, get paid good. YOU HAVE NO HOPE If you got into aviation for the money you will soon near the end of your road in Aviation.

I am a 22 year old, After completing my commercial pilot licence, there were limited jobs i mean limited. After working two jobs for 4 mths and sending out resumes i landed a job mustering in the middle of know where i had to move away from all my family and friends to pursue my love of aviation. After 6 mths i had gained money and experience which i put into gaining my Instructor rating once again i had to work low paying jobs to support my cause whilst looking for a job. after "9 MTHS'' i was happy to hear that i had received a job at a busy aviation college which i currently work today. just passing 1000hrs i have gained a great deal of experience and skill Aviation is not easy people if you get into it for the money, your taking it all wrong. I will get to where i want to go in this industry one day, not tomorrow not next week. maybe in 5-10yrs! but i will tell you one thing, if your heart is in it and you want it bad enough, then dont give up if you do you may as well roll over and die. as my grandfather once put it, "If you start something boy, Finish it" Ive started my career and wont stop till its finished, ask yourself the same question?

[Roadrunner Once]

What question?

[C-N]

Roadrunner Once,
You didn't read the post thoroughly. Read the last sentence, that's the question. :}

[Grass strip basher]

It is always interesting to see that the ones who say "I don't do it for the money" etc etc are usually in their early twenties.... i.e. no mortgage, no wife/kids, not bored with years sat in the cruise.... will be interesting to see how their attitude changes as they move through life and they have responsibilities beyond looking after no. 1....

[A10Warthog]

Soon 1 year since I lost my damn flying job, tired of this office work, I need to get flying soon!! :mad::mad::mad::mad:

3 years ago, i had, jet airways, air baltic, some others offers, turned all down, and this time, nothing !! ! ! ! !
:{

[Avturbound]

Its funny how your quick to criticize the fact i talk bout not being in it for the money. Just because im 22 doesn't mean i haven't got a mortgage, to put you straight now i do have a mortgage. As for the kids that may come at a later date when im more financially secure, If your so mature you would have seen the depth of what i said, meaning not in for the money i don't see myself flying a 747 and wanting to get paid the big bucks, flying in Alaska or Canada or Australia as float plane/mustering/charter whatever it may be will be challenging and rewarding. NOT all people need a 100k salary buddy to support themselves. My family has lived on a lot less then that for decades. Get a clue!

[Finals19]

Enough thread creep guys! I really don't care a rats a*rse about somebody's grammar (there are more essential things that would exclude them from getting a flying job!!)

To re-iterate, and at the risk of repitition, THERE IS NO MONEY ANYMORE IN AVIATION. Give it up now if you think thats an incentive. The only money is the money that you shell out in vast amounts over the years. I think most guys end up doing it initially as a passion, and in the later years because they have fallen into the vicious trap of not being "employable" to do anything else - for all the reasons cited here.

I am far from some twentysomething. I've been in it about 7 years now, commerical for about 5, and have really made sweet FA. However, I have had some wild and amazing flying experience and none of it anywhere near a jet. Money? - Its a concern, and has been echoed here, one that you really should think about, because its gonna affect your life aspirations - big time. By this I mean family, relationships, the lot.

I don't think I'll ever be rich in this game and acknowledge that. Luckily I don't think you need a 100K job to be happy (unlike the rest of the world around me it seems) But a little forward planning in the early stages will prevent it sewering you in your thirties / forties when things like kids and family become a priority and the job (should) take a back seat.

Personally, I think running into a jet job is a crying shame - you miss out on the real flying experience that smaller operations offer - raw hand flying in all wx is really where you cut your skills. I wouldn't have done anything different.

[SU27]

Ill be on Deansgate, Manchester, October 3rd 2009. Lunch time-ish.... Im handing out fivers to every sad little boy and girl who paid for either an integrated course or a SELF SPONSORED TYPE RATING.........

Come and get some money and have a go at me if u like!!!!

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !

Good luck with your 'in the black life style' ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Denasgate, Manchester, October 3rd 2009. 12pm.

Ill be wearing a black rabbit outfit with large pink shoes!!!!

LOL!!!!!

[SU27]

Your 'in the red lifestyle'....come and meet me at Edwards the fine shoe outlet when you finally get some money together....

[CABUS]

I totally agree with Finals, flying a prop or small jet in small strips, stuck in the wx on a daily basis is great experience! In my previous job I had engine fires, multiple rejected t/o's along with severe ice and it has all been great experience. Now I am just stuck on a NAT track above all the wx, only place it seems to become a problem is in Lapland on the winter flights or dodging the odd TX over the Alps or down the Adriatic. There has been some good points made however, I dont agree with the point 'there is no money in aviation', I would say money in aviation is hard to find but becomes easier with hours. I know these jobs are probably all taken aswell but I would reccomend safety pilot work! Its great fun and very rewarding, the money sucks but you can often get to fly on an empty sector getting multi hours for free! Not a bad thing to do while firing out CV's.

Seriously SU27 cheer up!:ok: There is no need for comments like that! I really hope you manage to remove that massive chip from your shoulder. Must go happy hour ends soon:ok:

[Luke SkyToddler]

There's still plenty of money in aviation finals19 ... just about every F/O in the big four arab gulf airlines are pulling around £60 - 70,000 a year tax free, with a free house provided and all bills / schooling / healthcare etc paid, which I guess if you turn into a pre-tax equivalent in europe would be a package well in excess of the magical £100,000 you refer to. Captains earn roughly 50% more again, with time to command running around 4 - 5 years in most places. Two years so far out here and I have paid off most of my debts and made some investments, and I can honest-to-god see myself having enough in the bank to retire after another 10 or 12 years, and I will still be only mid 40's at that stage. And yes I'm married with kids.

I'm not by any means trying to talk it up or show off, I know the mid east is not everyone's cup of tea, but it is unnecessary and demoralizing for the wannabe's to sit here and say blanket things like "money is finished in aviation" because it's clearly not. There are thousands and thousands of pilots out here all on the same employment contracts, and many thousands more will be needed in the next few years believe me.

I am nothing special as a pilot whatsoever (and the truth is that a damn trained monkey could do 99% of what we do in long haul). Getting the first job is like that competition they do in shopping malls where a bunch of people have to stand still and keep their hand on the car, after however many days have gone by, the last person touching the car after everyone else has given up wins. NEVER. GIVE. UP. and you shall be richly rewarded.

[Finals19]

Luke...

Sorry, my thread may have been slightly misleading (and no doubt a little emotive!) Agreed that ultimately it can become more attractive financially - I suppose I was trying to convey the impression that it is often (in the early years) a struggle more than a benefit, and this in comparison to other industries (e.g I.T.) where you can be waay better off in a very short space of time with a lot less grief.

Perhaps its an issue thats more endemic to Europe / UK, but what other job do you have to fork out (up to) £100K in return for a start salary of £25-30K (in some cases)?

In the UK I think its now more a case that T&C's are becoming massively diluted and the rewards aren't there like ppl think. Suppose I was just trying illustrate that to some of the "greener" forumites.

It still confounds me when I hear of guys sitting proudly in the rhs of a jet, with <500hrs (very commendable, don't get me wrong) but with a debt of £100K. Just seems like fuzzy logic.

[911slf]

While the investment to train as an airline pilot is very high, there are few professions that do not require substantial investment up front now. Do a degree at any British university and you are likely to graduate with debts around £30,000. More if it is medicine. More still soon when the cap on course fees is lifted. If you want to train as a barrister, factor in a couple of years unpaid traineeship after that.

In all professions, having the wherewithal to fund training is becoming more of a factor than having a higher level of ability than the next candidate. What you think should be done depends on your politics. My son thought about aviation as a career and I am very glad he was put off it an early stage. For myself, I am glad I never took aviation further than hang gliding.

[INNflight]

what other job do you have to fork out (up to) £100K in return for a start salary of £25-30K (in some cases)

See, but that is most people's MAIN PROBLEM!!!

You don't need a fecking 100,00.00 pounds to get a CPL!

There's a world outside the big flying schools. I hold a FAA CPL ME IR and within the next year also a JAA CPL ME IR. Total cost so far has been about 28,000 EUROS. What's that? 25k pounds?

And no, I did not get to train in suit and tie, did not do my PPL in a 2008 Cirrus or my multi in a 2008 Twin Star. All planes I flew on were built before I was even born.

Still, eventually I am gonna sit in the same seat as someone from Oxford, who has put 5 times the money into the same license.

Do some research, seariously :suspect:

[Avius]

Naturally, this forum is full of enthusiasts in their early 20's who will tell, that being a pilot is is more than about money. Idealism is afterall a virtue, when you are 20+. It is just natural.. I was one of those people many years ago.

The truth is however,that once you are past the "honeymoon" period your views will also naturally be changing.

The old saying, that "beauty is only skin-deep" exists for a reason. Sure, flying a big 747-400 will still be sort of fun, but your battle with lack of sleep and chronic jetlag will be much higher on your list of priorities.

You might not be there for those special moments when your son/daughter makes her first steps, nor may you see their graduation. Your family might have to celebrate many of the christmas holidays without you.

Additionally, in your 20's you have normally very little responsibilities - no wife, house and children to look after, therefore no mortgage, school tuitions and healthcare costs to confront.

Layoffs in bad times - and aviation seems to have many of those - might affect you more than other professions and having a non aviation related qualification as a backup is vital if you want to avoid anxieties.

Overall, depending what kind of person you are and how seriously you take your commitments, there is a fairly steep price to pay in this profession. In the past, the pay and the extended time off was one of the factors, that helped to compensate.

The deterioration of conditions over the last decades has taken a toll on the profession as the whole and whilst the public perception of you might still be glorious, your wallet will no longer validate it.

So go ahead, make your dream a reality, just know all the facts :ok:

[M14_P]

Good reality check this one, well said Shotover, and frankly pretty much all the other comments here.
I think the problem with many, is they don't actually know what they REALLY want out of life or aviation. That old story about the flight instructor imagining how great it would be to get a little xcountry IFR, then theres the fella in the Twin at 10,000ft etc etc, and then the boeing pilot looking at the stars wishing he was an astronaut, then there is the astronaut looking back at earth and pinpointing the very spot he first soloed in a cub.

It is almost as if we need to escape out of our own minds to look back at oneself to realise what it is that we REALLY want.
Before you get buried with debt in this industry I think more young people should stop and really think about what they actually want out of life and out of aviation. I think it takes many alot longer than just a few months to realise what their ultimate potential really is.

I know for sure what I want and always have wanted, and am well on the way but it seems crazy, that so many people are so depressed about it, about aviation, about flying. I can't believe why anyone would want to spend the sort of money we all have to spend and not totally love flying.

[Desk-pilot]

Some great posts and some good advice here. I'm afraid the truth is that eventually flying does become a job like any other and no I couldn't believe that would happen to me either! Ask Hugh Grant and he'll tell you he finds acting boring too.

It's hard to imagine this when you're a wannabe and totally absorbed in aviation but after a while most people start to want to earn more money for less work and that means a better company and job. It's those better companies and jobs that are in short supply so those of us already on the lower rungs of the food chain are almost as frustrated as the job hunting wannabe.

Frankly the problem with flying now is exactly as Avius said - the extended time off and pay that helped to compensate for not being home on your Daughter's birthday are no longer there - ergo you start to reassess the priorities in your life.

[corsair]

My current job is great, I fly maybe two or three days a week, am rarely away from home except during the high season. It's fun flying too, for the most part and I feel lucky to be able to do it. I performed a little low level flypast the other day with lots of banking and diving. There aren't many flying jobs around that allow that kind of thing anymore. I sometimes look out the windscreen and marvel at the sights I see, never a day the same, cloudscapes, sunsets and scenery. Every day presents a different challenge and I feel privileged to be sitting there in the high seat.

But there are times when you're up there and all you can think about is going home or what you'll have for dinner. You get tired and the last thing you want to do is fly. I am usually glad when I shut down at the end of the day's work. But that goes for any job. The main flaw with it is the money. It doesn't pay enough nor will it ever pay enough for it to be a permanent job. So I must walk away from it sooner rather than later.

It's the eternal problem. When I was twenty two, it would have been perfect as a starter job, right now with a family and mortgage, it's an expensive luxury. So I must move on, quite possibly out of flying altogether. Newbies, don't PM me for info. I'm not going just yet and in any case you will never get the job. It requires hours and maturity not just flying skills.

The twenty two year old in me is horrified at the idea but the Father and husband has to face reality.

Attitudes change but really being a pilot is something different to the herd and even if we become jaded about it, isn't it better to be a jaded pilot than a jaded accountant, or a jaded factory worker or shop worker.

So young and enthusiastic pilots, the job will pall eventually. That's life. As for those jaded amongst us, well at least it was fun once. Some jobs are never fun, never interesting and never have memorable moments. I know all too well having had a few of those over the years.

I'm enjoying the flying at the moment particularly as I realise that it's unsustainable and will end soon. But everything comes to a natural end. Such is life.

[Avturbound]

Corsair could not have said it better myself.! Such is life- ned kelly i believe good way to end it and a way that i look at my life in some aspect. I agree with what your saying therfore being a younger '22' yr old pilot atm im enjoying my job but getting tired of it and will move on soon to something more challenging however i wont always focus on aviation scuba diving whilst flying as a pilot has always been another of my dreams which i will soon be taking on. Any way good advice enjoy your flying stay safe.

[fcom]

I went through OATS in 1990 and didn't get a sniff of a job until 1995.It will come eventually

[lpokijuhyt]

From time to time, I read a post by pilots with 250 TT, MCC, ATPL theory, ME-Comm/IR, upset that they can't get a job. Be grateful that airlines in Europe look at people with 250 hours TT. Why? Well here is a job offer to join Virgin America (as a First Officer).

COMPANY:Virgin AmericaDATE:Sep 22, 2009POSITION:Pilots DESCRIPTION:Airport Location: Virgin America HQ
Country: United States
State: California
City: Burlingame

Description: Are you ready to take off? If you’ve got passion,
drive, and a guest-friendly spirit, you might be the kind of person
we are looking for. Virgin America is seeking a special kind of
person who will help define who we are. We’ll supply the planes --
brand new Airbus A320-family aircraft — and the headquarters —
beautiful San Francisco, California. We want you to bring the heart
and creativity to make this the most beloved airline in the sky.
Together, we can create a company where inspired people will
always love to work.

The Role…… ensure a safe journey and a positive Virgin America
experience for all. This position will safely operate the aircraft in
accordance with all Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs) and
company policies and procedures while maintaining a lasting
impression of friendliness and outstanding service representative
of the Virgin America brand. What you can bring…..

Skills:

• FAA Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) Certification

• Check Airmen or Instructor time highly desired

• 5000 hours total time in airplanes (excluded: Helo, Sim, F/E time)

• Airbus A320 type rating preferred

• Current FAA Class 1 Medical Certificate

• Must pass FAA mandated drug test

• FCC Radio License

• Must possess a valid U.S. Driver’s license

• Current passport

• Legally authorized to work in the U.S.

• Must pass required federal background checks and Virgin
America pre-employment background checks Experience and
Expertise:

• Excellent communication skills

• An established knowledge of MicroSoft Office, Adobe Acrobat,
and Internet e-mail functions

Recent flight experience:

• 1000 hours total time as PIC, in turbine or jet aircraft

[Vesterbronx]

They usually throw in a college degree as well :)

[PAPI-74]

..oh is that all.
Sounds just like every other job that is advertised.

ATPL - 2500TT
1900 turbo-prop
Instructor
Damn good fellow

Stuck
Too much time for some airlines (200hr OAT /CTC Sausages fresh from the Sausage Factory only)
Not enough jet time for the rest
Sod paying 23k for a temp 6 month contract (see mug written on my forehead?)
Must be light soon - but enjoying the flying while I wait.

[howflytrg]

As seen on Flybe.com

Leading regional airline signs on 16 new pilots fresh from leading flight schools
Flybe, one of Europe’s largest regional airlines and the UK’s number one domestic carrier, has welcomed 16 new pilots from its own sponsored pilot recruitment programme to undergo a familiarisation/induction course for its Q400 fleet, included amongst which are three recruits from the South West.

The intake flies in the face of current global aviation activity where many airlines are shedding rather than hiring pilots as a direct result of the economic climate. Flybe’s programme operates in conjunction with a number of training schools across Europe and demonstrates its commitment to high quality training as it continues to recruit from flight schools that include Flight Training Europe, Jerez, Cabair College of Air Training at Cranfield and Oxford Aviation Academy.
Flybe’s unique relationship with its partner Flight Training Schools brings hope to many potential pilots looking for the opportunity to realise their dreams.

Ian Baston, Chief Pilot for Flybe comments; “Flybe seeks out the best pilots in the industry to help us continue deliver a first-class flight experience. To this end, we have built solid relationships with a number of leading flight schools across Europe and are always on the look-out for new talent to bolster our teams. We’re looking forward to helping our 16 new pilots embark on a long and successful career with us.”
Mike Rutter, Flybe’s Chief Commercial Officer, comments; “We are delighted to be strengthening our flight team with the recruitment of the new Pilots. It’s great to know that we have some of the best talent in the industry coming on board to help us to grow the Flybe brand. At a time when other airlines are tightening their belts and feeling the impact of tough trading conditions, Flybe continues to recruit.”

[student88]

Wouldn't it be nice if the CAA banned all training towards the issue of a fATPL until all the experienced, out of work pilots have jobs!

Not gonna happen though.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Wouldn't it be nice if the CAA banned all training towards the issue of a fATPL until all the experienced, out of work pilots have jobs!

No it would not. :)

[skypilot320]

Hi every one I'm A320 F/O job hunting,any suggestions please?

Thanks http://www.luchtzak.be/forums/images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif

[domandellie]

I have recently completed Australian CPL with MECIR and ATPL theory. I am now looking at jobs flying 206's on outback cattle stations. Not the best work as when you are not flying you are working on the station in +35deg. Still, 500 hours per year cannot be sniffed at.

[One9iner]

domandellie... that sounds like fun! :ok:

[Tailgunner Joe]

Seems that Solid aiR is hiring again http://www.solid-airline.com/Typerated.pdf

[PAPI-74]

Every damn operator is usuing CTC sausages - that's where all the jobs are.
Hope they come unstuck, as I hear from most airlines that they are very much under performing.
Maybe paying a bit more for a more experienced SnrFO rather than a 200hr bod isn't such a bad idea.

[dbdb]

PAPI-74

I rarely reply to such baiting but in this case I'll make an exception.

"Hope they come unstuck, as I hear from most airlines that they are very much under performing"

To wish for any fellow aviator to come unstuck is an abhorrent and shameful thing to say. In the current climate when everyone is hanging on to there jobs this just smacks of bitterness and is quite frankly pathetic. Perhaps you should address your own attitude and take a good hard look in the mirror before blaming everyone else for your situation.

I was a member of the CTC scheme myself, I have been flying with easyJet for over 1.5 years and have never heard such rumours of underperformance, in fact quite the opposite. Of course they could be saying how terrible I am behind my back whilst at the same time writing good reports about me!! I would carefully check your sources before you come out with such utter nonsense on this forum again.

Rant Over!!

[cptcollins]

Every damn operator is usuing CTC sausages - that's where all the jobs are.

Yup, they most certainly are! In fact, couldn't have said it better myself PAPI-74. In fact that probably explains why I've been working behind a desk for the majority of 2009, with a pretty little blue book sitting at home collecting dust waiting patiently for CTC to call me with some good news. Funny that...

Hope they come unstuck, as I hear from most airlines that they are very much under performing.
Maybe paying a bit more for a more experienced SnrFO rather than a 200hr bod isn't such a bad idea.

Amazing! You sir, are an ignoramus imbecile. Read 'The Log' and called it gospel did you? It's ironic, because I hear from most airlines that they tend to avoid recruiting fatuous morons.

I refuse to believe that any of us, be it CTC, FTE, Cabair, OAT or self improvers didn't put 100% into that little blue book after sacrificing so much for the chance. I have certainly seen many, many sources suggesting CTC cadets are of excellent standard, as I have of cadets from other training schools. Scrapping is counter productive during tough times and certainly doesn't represent the professionalism in which we were encouraged to adhere in the cockpit. I personally wish everyone currently struggling in this industry, regardless of their training background the upmost advocacy in persuing their RHS ambitions.

[hec7or]

My reading of PAPIs post is that he/she wants the operators who use cheap labour to come unstuck, not the pilots themselves.

While CTC cadets are exceptional with the SOPs and day to day stuff and represent a reliable and standardised product, it may be worth noting that when things start happening fast, the experienced pilots cope a little better.

In 3 go rounds from monitored approaches flown from the OM in the last year, I've had to take control twice to avoid an alt bust due to the startle factor as the power kicks in and both of these were with inexperienced cadets, on the remaining go round a more experienced SFO managed to fly the entire procedure without intervention from me.

I'm no expert, but in all these cases, due to the conditions it shouldn't have come as much of a surprise that a missed approach was to be flown and both of the cadets had given a blow by blow description of the go round procedure as SOP dictates during the approach brief. Interestingly, the more experienced SFO didn't bother with the go round briefing, he just got on with it when the time came.

These should be routine low workload events without self induced drama.

No offence intended to the new guys, but there is evidence here on the side of experience.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Looks like over 100 pilot redundancies at Thomsonfly. :(

[Mister Geezer]

I gather that Thomson management were wanting more too. :(

House prices may be on the rise again and some financial pundits are prediction an end to the UK recession in 2010, however the UK aviation industry is still well and truly on its knees and will be for a while.

If you are working towards that blue book then take your time - there is no rush! :ok:

[dbdb]

hec70r,

Ok, you have interpreted it one way I have interpreted it another. Still to come on this forum and say that CTC cadets as a whole are underperforming is still nonsense and insulting. Maybe he could clarify himself what he meant.

Regardless of anyones training background, we all had to start somewhere. Your example of the experienced SFO performing his actions correctly don't reflect his training background, merely his experience on the aircraft type. I'm sure he had seen his fair amount of go arounds and reacted accordingly..maybe they were not all perfect either? He was inexperience on type once before also.

What exactly is this evidence you refer to, that no CTC cadet is capable of flying a go around without intervention? For your given example I'm sure there are plenty of others to the contrary, otherwise I'm sure we would all have heard about it by now. To tar everyone with the same brush because of a couple of events is a bit much. I'm sure everyone, including your experienced SFO has been caught out on a couple of occassions when things happen a bit quickly. The saying "those who have and those who have yet to" springs to mind.

[170to5]

So

bmi
BA
Thomson
Aer Lingus
Finnair
SAS
Numerous CTC guys who are on 6 month contracts could be included in the line-up

Anyone else?

That'll keep the job market well supplied for quite some time, sadly...yet they continue to line up for a blue book.

[hec7or]

dbdb

Calm yourself, I can only go on the evidence I have seen, namely 100% of the CTC cadets have been shocked and awed by the sudden change of flightpath and 100% of the admittedly small sample of experienced FOs have not.

Yes we all have to gain experience somehow, but contrary to the belief of some airline CEOs, experience takes a little time to build, whereas training, however intense doesn't.

No offence mate, but I don't remember saying all FOs would perform the same way, just all the ones I've seen.

[DeanRogers]

Vito i feel sorry for you man, thats not good news to hear for me.
Im training at the moment in the US but im from Ireland and i would like to go back there after.
Good luck in finiding a job.

[David_Lid Air]

TP operators do hire from time to time.

I just got a job on the 340 again (Loganair). I think that they will hire more pilots soon.

NextJet in Sweden is also hiring at the moment.

[JackN]

NextJet's website says 'no current vacancies'... :(

[student88]

easyJet taking on contract captains, so no upgrades from existing crew, but taking on CTC flexi crew and OAA grads who spend 32K on a type rating.

I'm glad I'm pursuing a different career these days.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

easyJet are NOT taking on contract Captains and there will be sizeable numbers (circa 50) FO's on Command Courses in the next couple of months.

Sizeable numbers (150ish) of pay-as-go work experience FO cadets of various flavours will be spending the summer at easyJet.

[angelorange]

150 PTF cadets x £34k = £ 5.1 Million!

Those TREs must be raking it in!

Meantime regular FOs on standby duty so not hope of SFO hours, and fewer SFOs to Capts for same reason.

[PtP]

8000 hrs total
6000 jet
B747-400 ( for a major uk airline)
B737-3/4/5
ATR42/72

Been flying for uk airlines since 1997... redundant twice!!

no accidents no incidents... no failures good grades in sim and line checks

42 yrs old

blah blah it all doesnt mean jack!! Im unemployed and cant find work and i mean anything... cadets are a much better prospect than me...

if this doesnt put you off a career in this poxy industry then you are mad!!! :ugh:

[lpokijuhyt]

PtP: Have you tried applying as a cadet at RyanAir or EZjet?

[wanabe2010]

Ptp,

nobody is going to hire you, even with 10000000 hours. It's finished, over...you cost too much.

And the other guys entering in this industry will soon be out for new fresh non experimented pilots.

Having experience or getting experience is the worse thing you can get. It's the exit door.

Aviation should be seen as a short term project only...fly 3-4 months for an airline, and then give your place to someone else, and put your blue license on a wall, so all you friend can see what you have achieved.

as long people are willing to pay to work, this job will not exist anymore.

[Rui Dias]

Ptp, try Flydubai and other companies on the middle-east.

[helldog]

Seems all the jobs are in oz. Best country in the world without a doubt, proven once again, we didn't go into recession and things are looking good. Currently looking for pilots - Jetstar, Strategic, Tiger. Accepting interest- Virgin Blue, Pacific Blue. Jobs on Kingairs, Metros, Westwinds applenty plus a few bizjet operators recently recruited. I am serriously thinking about leaving Europe and going home to the lucky country. Lucky I was born there :ok:

[PtP]

Thanks for the tips guys but wanabe2010 is right... experience counts for little when companies like difficult jet and lying air are abusing all the new entrants into this industry.. guys its not your fault but stop selling your souls to the devil and paying for jobs!! you are your own worst enemies and now you've created a monster that will not stop... let me tell you a big shiney jet IS NOT everything... i've been there and it aint what you think!! if you have a real passion for flying thats great... do something that involves flying and i mean real flying... There is no money in this industry anymore and very little glamour.. disrespectful cabin crew constantly calling you ****edeck... senior pilots who really aren't interested in anything you have to say unless its about them or their pension and how many houses or their latest sports car... security staff that look at you and speak to you as if they have just found you lying in some shop doorway covered in p**s!!! seniority sucks too... great for pay leave, days off, trip requests etc but if you want to move on you're :mad: unless you have command time on anything over 25 tonnes with efis/eicas/evs/etc etc and rocket engines.. or its back to the beginning for you.... junior first officer and another umpteen years in the rhs listening to ****e and kissing the ass of your tre's just to maintain your grades that youve held for the past 10 years in your previous airline.... seriously is this what you want??? To be honest i'm glad i'm out of it... I chose to leave my very cosy job in the rhs of a 747.. 8 years seniority behind me and another 6 yrs in front of me before a sniff at command... I personally couldnt face it... my choice... and now?? Well i still want to fly..its in my bones and always will be but not for an airline.. never again as long as I can still walk and talk.. sorry if thats not what all you young guys want to hear, the truth is often painful... there will always be too many pilots and not enough jobs and the airlines will always be calling the shots..

And before you say it... yes I am bitter.. Im bitter i never had anyone telling me this before i begged borrowed and stole my 50k to pay for my licence... shouldve just kept my ppl and done something else..

[lpokijuhyt]

Ptp:

I understand you completely. I am in the exact sam boat....literally (747 pilot for several years). Currently unemployed and no hint of a job. Can't get on with EZ or Ryanair because I don't need to go through an integrated ATPL course (that's a huge moneymaker for them as we all know). There honestly is not a day that goes by that I sincerely regret my decision to enter into this career...um I mean part-time job...used to be a career. Even for the guys flying. What the hell are they going to have to show after all those years flying? Not much. Pension...hahaha.

[wanabe2010]

Jetstar, Strategic, Tiger. Accepting interest- Virgin Blue, Pacific Blue. Jobs on Kingairs, Metros, Westwinds many of these companies offer a "pay to fly", the one who still don't , will soon sell block of hours on their planes.It's going to be worldwide.

"of course they are thinking about it!!!, can you believe it?, you can generate money with these idiots of pilots, why should they pay you to work when thousand of whores are willing to kill their mom?"


Strategic is now one of them...300h for 20'000 euro.

most of these offers go up to 500h, soon it will be 1000h, then 2000h, and in 1-2 years, captains will have to pay as well(eaglejet has already this kind of scam).

Slowly this profession will disapear from the planet.As jobs will be harder and harder to get in the future, soon you will see "pay to work"offers for flight attendants, mechanic, etc.

[Sciolistes]

Jetstar, ..., Tiger. Accepting interest- Virgin Blue, Pacific Blue
Pay to fly :confused:

(747 pilot for several years). Currently unemployed and no hint of a job.
In the UK yes, it is dead. Europe not much better. But Asia and Middle East are hiring experienced guys with good money to be made with commuting contracts available.

[minimum_wage]

lpokijuhyt and ptp,
Jade cargo based out of Schenzen are hiring 747 freighter pilots.
2 weeks on 2 weeks off commuting.
Not advertised as such on website but are doing interviews.
Jade Cargo International - Recruitment Events (http://www.jadecargo.com/JoinUs/RecruitmentEvents/tabid/83/Default.aspx)

Lots of hiring in Asia/Pacific and Aussie is about to boom this year. J* looking for 120 pilots and Virgin about the same.

[ei-flyer]

It's not so bad - it all depends on your personal experience within the industry. Some people are just damn unlucky... I wonder how the guys feel who jumped from Silverjet, to Zoom, to FlyGlobeSpan etc, all within a couple of years.

I did the Ryanair thing after flight training, but have since moved to a private operator and what I have is a career, still building jet time. Europe's no good for new starters in this sector, but give it a few years and the opportunities will start opening up for the experienced folk.

The Bizworld as I know it has remained relatively unscathed by the ptf tits.

Or maybe I'm wrong...? :ouch:

[EGCC4284]

Jade commuting

Which airline are recruiting that you could do this

[A10Warthog]

Getting frustrated!
2000hr, 1000hr turbine.
Can't get any job!
Both JAA & FAA license!

:ugh:

[unb5]

Just an opinion. Since these so called airlines are actually charging wanna be pilots for line training are they not more than a flying school ? And as a flight school are they actually allowed to have paying consumers on board their aircraft. Any real airline does not charge their employees for training and then therefore cannot be deemed a flight school. How are these sudo companies getting around this ?

[Piripi]

Same here, 2600 TT, 1050 turbine PIC, 350 Jet time. JAA and FAA licences. Can't find a job, applied to maybe 200 jobs in the last 6 months.Have not paid for a type. And have very strong opinion about doing so, but I don't even think thats an option nowadays. They called me from Jetbird, but you all know what happened there.

This is depressing.

[lpokijuhyt]

Piripi: Have faith. JetBird are supposed to have another round of phone interviews as soon as they get some more financing.

[lpokijuhyt]

Getting frustrated!
2000hr, 1000hr turbine.
Can't get any job!
Both JAA & FAA license!


A10 Warthog: You need to be smarter than that! C'mon. Go to the CDC website. They hire cadets for Europe's lowcost carriers. Apply for an "interview". Lie and tell them you have zero hours and would like to do the integrated ATPL. Hell, wear a pilot shirt and tie to impress them. Once you do your ATPL (again), but this time with them, you will have the opportunity to pick up some 737 experience via EasyJet. You will then be working, will you not? Good luck!

[fly_antonov]

YouTube - So You Want to be a Regional Airline Pilot? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A)

[higgsworld]

no jobs out there it seems :(

[tommoutrie]

dammit.. if you just had Space Shuttle on your licence and were current with more than 1500 hours I could probably help you :}

[Piripi]

you probably have a bigger than normal license to stamp all your ratings on it.

[teen_pilot_95]

What would be the best way to get into the job?

Sponsorship is the most obvious option, or an integrated at Cabair of FTE (what I'm aiming for) but it is very hard to get into these, so is there any other suggestions?

Flying is all I want to do as a career and I have 8 hours in my log (at the age of 15).

Cheers.

[justasmallfire]

for me to get to frozen ATPL with instructor rating and multi engine cpl IR MCC has cost me around 62K going down the modular route with only one possible job offer after 2 years,if I was in your position I would try the RAF If in the uk and try to get as much for free as possible ,you will need to get good results in GCSE's and possible A levels to get in but this will reduce time and overall cost for you and leave you in the best position for employment later on.

[SpreadEagle]

Teen pilot, as you can see I don't often chip in with a comment but

Sponsorship is the most obvious option, or an integrated at Cabair

An integrated at Cabair is probably one of the most useless ways of getting a job. How do I know? I did it. Over a year later and can you guess how many times Cabair have rung me up or emailed me since I left, to let me know about contacts, job vacancies or to recomend me to airlines? They haven't even asked if I have employment yet.

Cabair are just an air school. They are a very good airschool and when you actually get into a plane once a month during your training, the tuition is of the highest quality. But once you have your license, you are on your own.

The main issue is that Cabair have no friends. None. They used to know a man at Kuwait airlines, but he is still annoyed that Cabair took longer than promised to train his pilots. They used to be friends with a chap at Flybe. But guess what? Yet again they failed to deliver sponsored pilots on time and now that chap is friends with the guys at Oxford. EasyJet like CTC, Thomas Cook like Jerez and Ryan Air like anyone with lots of money. BA hate everyone. (Until 2011 anyway).

If you can get sponsored then best of luck, you'll get a job after several months of being an airhostess after you qualify. But, you'd be better off spending your £60K on a fast car and some insurance than a self-sponsored scheme right now. In 5 years the car will still be of some value.:(

[North of the Field]

Teen pilot, just so you know that it's not just one persons bad experience with Cabair, I can confirm that SpreadEagles experience with the place mimics my own. The training is of a reasonable standard (although with no basis for comparison you can never be 100% sure). But the support after course completion is woeful (that's putting lightly!). It's actually a shame really because I fee thel place has (or at least had (18 months ish since I left)) real potential to be a top training organisation. If only it wasn't for the management....

[Lrjetcap]

Guys and Gals,
I graduated in the fall of 01', one week after 9/11. The prospects of back then make today look like a joke. For those of you with low time--talking around 500TT to 1000TT. Look at FlightSafety or Simuflite here in the States or even abroad. Must have programs for low time pilots to sit right seat in Level D sims. You get free training and meet alot of Directors or Aviation/Chief Pilot types and get great experience. Hang in there and good luck:ok:

[169west]

... for the future plan to be a volcanologist!:}

[citationman]

I believe that things might be slowly moving ahead in the corporate sector.

We are expecting to take 2-3 new hires, un-rated in the next month or so. Having asked about I would understand that we are not alone in this.

Good luck to all those seeking their first break.

[Piripi]

wow, you should give us(me:ok:) some more info on those unrated jobs!
Hopefully you are right! I keep sending resumes left and right and I have both JAA, FAA, and somewhat respectable experience, no luck. I think it will start picking up in about 1 year.

[MilPilot]

The rest of the world needs to follow suit with the new FAA 1500 hour min rule for airlines. It is ridiculous with all these Cadet schemes when there are a lot of experienced pilots available.

[FlyBoyFryer]

Yeah yeah, whatever buddy...

Go troll somewhere else!

[MilPilot]

No Troll !! I am dead serious!!

[BigNumber]

Cobblers!; I do not want my holiday / commuting airfares increasing because some selfish pilot actually requires paying!

I much prefer to enjoy my flights from a heavily subsidized seat!

Long live the 'love struck', 200 hour jet god 'running' on the bank of Mum and dad; he gets my vote every time. Fortunately, the seminars at OAA continue to be well attended.:ok:

[bokboy22]

Hi

When did the FAA introduce that rule, sounds like a very good idea. As an experienced unemployed pilot, I find it bloody frustrating some 200 hout **** just gets mummy to buy his way into a job.

Is there any talk of Europe introducing this rule.

[Dave Clarke Fife]

Jambone............you ass!! You are todays No1 fool :}.

Your sentiments are well placed but I think sarcasm sums up that post completely :ok:

[v6g]

I don't think he is being sarcastic - at least his opinions resonate with mine.

While the aviation industry struggles through it's necessary rumblings I'm more than happy working in my back-up career, earning good money with good benefits & a stress-free lifestyle.

This was so clearly going to be a very bad time to be entering the industry, the warning signs couldn't have been clearer.

For every schmuck who chooses to pay an airline for the pleasure of playing with their planes, they're providing massive subsidies for my vacations & business travel. If people are happy to pay to fly me around then I'm only too happy to take them up on that offer.

The icing on the cake for me is that by taking out massive loans for the package, they're ensuring that they will be working hard for the majority of their working lives to pay me hefty dividends on my bank stocks. If there is a plentiful supply of suckers out there who are prepared to work to benefit me in this way, for nothing in return for themselves, then I'm tempted to say I actually encourage it. It's a free world. It's their choice - they were free to do so, or not, as they please.

The difference is one of professional outlook. I don't place the emphasis on simply partaking in the activity - I place a heavy weight on being remunerated appropriately for me to be willing to take part. If the status quo in aviation becomes the norm then I'm equally happy to keep flying as a hobby and stick to my original career. I'm equally content with that. Aviation is not the only rewarding activity in this world. I'm enthused by all those cheap flights to sunny destinations funded largely by what is effectively voluntary slave labour. All the while the participants are contributing to my retirement fund with those interest payments. It's a capitalists dream.

The comparison with a surgeon doesn't hold any ground I'm afraid. It takes far greater time, intellect and expense to train a surgeon than a pilot and a surgeon has no direct interest in the customers future (other than hospital league tables). Once the door of the aircraft is closed, the pilot and the passengers destinies are inseparable (to quote EK Gann). Survival instinct transcends remuneration packages.

[skyflaps]

love it - they should keep paying - totally agree :D

[RoyHudd]

v6g, enjoy your cheap flights to your holiday destinations, driven in part by P2F neophytes. As long as you remain blissfully unaware of the risks, your capitalist dream should remain most satisfying. You clearly have no idea about the flying profession, skills, airmanship, and experience.

A nasty day over Cuba, with all destinations beset by TSRA, is no place for a proficient Captain and his useless P2F "colleague". I doubt that you have a clue.

[Nearly There]

It amazes me these folk who refer to bank of mummy and daddy or 200 hour sky gods etc..some people will have worked hard and saved the funds and you were all 200 hr pilots at one point with the same asperations

As for the folk who say they are experienced and cant get a job because of pay to fly, this indicates that every airline only takes on P2F...to my knowledge there is only a handful of these schemes running so that argument doesnt hold much water.

[Pace152]

Hey there Roy,

As much as I wish the Pay2Fly brigade would stop doing themselves and everybody else over, it doesn't neccesarily mean that everyone who does this is a sh*t pilot. It just that they've let their desperation take over them!

[BigNumber]

Not all fat people are thick however the majority of thick people are fat!

[b2d]

The fact that you have new pilots thinking and expecting a jet job for their first job at 200 hours tells me someone told these guys something less than ethical in their training maybe just maybe to grab their hard earned money.

I blame it on the Flight Training units that trained them to not set them straight from the beginning.
Truly explain how the industry actually works. In my opinion, I think most of these schools will tell their students other wise to get their 40 or 50 K.

Some parts of the world, most and a very high number of pilots will not see their first Turbo Fan unless they have 3000 hrs tot and about 1000 turbine command, and that is the low end of the requirements.

I don’t want to sound like I am putting the individual down with this post but I think both sides are somewhat at fault.

I recommend maybe getting an instructor ratting, get some experience training, take your time to truly progressively learn the industry, and hard work will pay off one day, believe me as some posters had mentioned you need thick skin and lots of patience in this industry.

Good luck and fly safe

[Avturbound]

I don't care what anyone else say's I personally think cadet scheme pilots are trash. For someone to come into the game with a silver spoon and get into the right hand seat of a jet or turbo prop is ridiculous.

They might fly the big plane at a young age, but try and get them to land in a 30kt xwind on a 370m runway in a 3t twin.

But in saying that I disagree with them and spite that they are ruining it for the pilots out there that leave to go into places out of their comfort zone to fly, let these guys go into their BIG jet job with 200 hrs.

Lets see how quickly they get sick of the F/O position or S/O position when the computer does all the flying, enjoy you :mad: because your missing some of the best flying and stories that you could ever have!

signed; a real pilot not a button pusher :cool:

[Kernow 101]

Avturbound,

well put....and said with all the eloquence of a true 'crop duster' :}

[Skycreature]

:ugh:

I am finishing my CPL at the moment. Next I will be instructing at the school where I'm studying and help out with anything. Clean aircraft, hoover the floors and do paperwork.
The step after that is charter ops in 210's for a good 6 months before I get near a caravan.

I think this is where the fun is. Have spoken to some old airline pilots and said the best fun they had was during the 6 years before they got into an airline. Anyway, all that airlines are good for is pay and smoo.

I'm going to to have fun flying in as many different places as possible, now that I can.
Will worry about airlines when I have a family and need a Porsche to feel young again.

With warm regards,
A young humble pilot.

[Avturbound]

:ok:

You have the right attitude, and yes it goes without saying that the GA industry of aviation though difficult and not the best pay is some of the best flying you will encounter.

Starting at a flying school is something I did worked up my hours and now fly twin engine charter, on not so bad salary.

Word of wisdom though, work on getting your 500 twin time after the 210's before going onto a caravan though turbine is good, twin is better ;).

Goodluck :cool:

[go around flaps15]

For decades 250 hour guys have gone from flight training straight on to jets. Are you seriously saying that the guys flying jets straight after flight training can't do what you do on a twin with a crosswind?


Thats a high horse your riding on .

[Avturbound]

That's exactly what im saying. I was a senior flight instructor in Australia conducting regualar BFR's. I flew with a young couple, that fly for bisjet on the A320's and 737's. Came to australia to fly a mooney around australia. They were cadets and had flown jets for 3 years. The guy was average but picked it up ok, the girl could not land if her life depended on it. I failed her BFR for the equivalent conversion to fly in Australia as she was unsafe. A B737 is a lot different to a Twin piston.

I don't bs just tell it how it is. not all cases but many.

[SupaMach]

A B737 is a lot different to a Twin piston.


Exactly.. and because someone may not be able to fly a light twin / single amazingly (or indeed remember how to), that does not mean they can not fly a B737 well or safely, or indeed "manage" the aircraft and the flight.

I wouldn't expect myself to be **** hot on flying light props now after time on a Jet, it'd take time and practice.

[Avturbound]

fly a B737 well or safely, or indeed "manage" the aircraft and the flight.

Exactly you fly a piston twin. You don't fly a b737 it flies itself, you manage it... BIG difference.

[Artie Fufkin]

Except, of course, when you disconnect all the automatics at FL100 and fly it in.

It does happen... :eek::E

[shaun ryder]

Maybe, but for most of you puppets out there it will be with the flight director still on and on a flat calm clear day watched by the beady eye of P1.

"Oh I flew it without the autothrottles" whoopee do..

I think what's being said here is that half of the 200hr jet gods have never experienced (cut their teeth) in what it really can be like flying a complex aeroplane single pilot IFR/ night etc. No ILS no radar etc etc, you will never understand how challenging it can be until you experience it for real, memories of which, always provide for some good banter on the flight deck.

Flying airliners is most definitely boring and less challenging in comparison. The best flying I ever did for sure.:ok:

[Spendid Cruiser]

I went straight to a jet at 300hrs. It is pretty easy really, do the TR, read the books, follow the procedure. The airmanship is something that takes much longer to develop. However, even now with 2500hrs (wow what a huge number) I am beginning to understand what people like Shaun are talking about. I definitely feel that there is a considerable amount of out of the box thinking that I quite haven't got the hang of yet, probably because I don't know what it is like to be plugging away in Seneca one Winter's night whilst listening to the prop ice slapping against the nose. I actually wish I had the experience, but I'm also glad to get a nicely paid jet job in a stunning part of the world, an experience I never even imagined :ok:

A B737 is a lot different to a Twin piston.
I guess it is all perspective. I recall during my MCC in a 732, how it just seemed like a big fat Seneca short of six levers.

[Avturbound]

No ILS no radar etc etc, you will never understand how challenging it can be until you experience it for real, memories of which, always provide for some good banter on the flight deck.

glad to see some pilots that became just that to fly a plane not just push some buttons for the $$$. :ok:

[de facto]

I am a button pusher and making big $$$:E
If I need to or feel like it I will fly without automatics without a sweat.
Flying props for a long time single pilot in bad conditions is interesting and gives good memories as well as loads of stories to tell.I flew Sa227/be1900 single pilot/no autopilot.
However it didn't make me a better pilot than a Multi crew Jet captain at that time,far from that...i had developed bad habits over the years which i had to correct to fly this shinny jet.
I don't look down on other pilots who didn't make it on jets for whatever reason and i don't think prop/piston pilots should simplify flying a Jet as a button pushers that clearly shows their obvious bitterness and lack of experience as a professional pilot.

If my Fo never flew a prop before(airline cadet),why should i be bothered about it?As long as his standard is up to the job im quite happy:)

[fireflybob]

I started my airline career on the B707 and we thought nothing of hand flying on a regular basis. Later on I converted to the B737-200 and once again we regularly hand flew from take off to top of climb and from top of descent to landing - we even hand flew circle to land! Also it was a matter of pride to close the thrust levers at top of descent and not open them up again until about 3 nm from touchdown (what they now called a CDA!).

Sometimes the autopilot was u/s and we would hand fly to the Canaries and back (4 hrs each way) at night! Even with the autopilot there was no Alt Acq and no Auto Throttle. Also No FMC - all fuel checks etc were manual.

Am not against automation which given traffic densities etc is a great aid but in the "olden days" we knew how to fly the a/c manually and took much pride in doing so.

[shaun ryder]

I definitely feel that there is a considerable amount of out of the box thinking that I quite haven't got the hang of yet

A very modest assertion I must say Spendid Cruiser! A desirable quality in yourself non the less, you are an asset to your employer, newbies take note!

[romeochez]

Alright gang, I have been searching high and low for information on obtaining a pilot position with an airline overseas. There are people out there doing it but I have no clue where to even start. I have 1236 TT 300 Multi, no CFI , no turbine anything and I have had it with paying out my ears anymore for training or so called upgrades. Can anyone offer me any insite on where to look, how its done or who to speak to or anything? Thanx $1mil in advance!:{:\

[BigNumber]

Try 'Eagle Jet'; they are always recruiting!

[Van Gough]

Thanx $1mil in advance!

Am I reading this right? You have spent $1 mil on flying?

[RAPA Pilot]

shaun ryder, You are spot on.
But having said that I would not expect to climb back into a twin piston or an SEP that I have not flown for some years dispite many hours on those types and be any good at flying them at least to the standard I did back then. Thats what line training is for.

[Clintonb]

i agree with instructing doesn't hurt to get some experience and get bit of money along the side lines. Thing that worries me is the logging the hrs you can only log hrs if the person you instructing is doing their ppl because they technically dont have a license so they not qualified yet right?, but once they have their license you the instructor cant log anymore hrs especially if you instructing them for the night rating or instrument etc I'm guessing FAA you can log but JAA/JAR you cant.

[INNflight]

I honestly find it ridiculous to see 250hrs CFIs teaching other people how to fly. They're barely legal to fly themselves, and I'd rather have someone with actual experience teach a newbie... :suspect:

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

CFI's with 250hrs..... not sure I like the idea of that. :sad:

FI's with 250hrs....no problem. We all have to start somewhere and if not the FI route then where else can you gain experience....I haven't got £££'s to go hiring a C172 for the sake of it.

2W2R :ok:

[Uncle Wiggily]

INNflight: CFIs should instruct for the pure love of instructing! They obviously love flying, so that should be sufficient. Besides, if an instructor requires an absurd request like money/payment for their services they should be laughed at in their face and then you should go find some instructor that will do the job for free! They want the hours, right? Why give them hours and money. C'mon! They should do the job for free in order to get a feel for what their airline job will be like.

[Always Moving]

INNflight so who do you suggest is going to teach you? (I teach you but you would need a cool plane that I WANT to fly and it would cost you quite a bit!)

An experience Airline pilot? he probably charge 200USD/h and most have no idea of GA operations or how to basic flight (before you all jump me that was said by the Airbus guy)

The experience GA pilot? he is too busy, there are not many of them to train all the student pilots

The retired (after 60/65) after a life in Aviation comes to give back to the "youngens"? Too much liability to be teaching for peanuts and again there are not enough of them

You can start a lobby to change the regulations.....

This looks like it should be its own thread!

[doublemamba]

I'm sorry if this offends people but old Vito Corleone was bang on the money. This industry offers the average person nothing anymore but blood, sweat and tears. If you are a rich kid you can buy yourself a job unless you're a total retard (and even then there is always Easy Jet or Ryan Air I suppose). However for many good pilots and good people out there without a rich daddy in an airline they have been sold a lie by a ponzi scheme FTO. This industry is based on 'who you know' and not 'what you know' and the instructor industry is propped up by many people buying into courses they can't afford.

[bokboy22]

I agree with the above poster, the industry is in dire straits. Salaries have taken a dive, unless you know somebody in an important position, you cant get in to airlines and corporate operators.

Aviation has to be the most neglected badly run industry in the world. I really wish I could go back 10 years and never have got into this industry.

I wish everyone on here the best with regards to their careers but I certainly wont be recommending aviation to anyone.:=

[sir fizzy]

try contacting flight training centres - they will probably have a special connection with an airline and can recomend you? - just throwing ideas around

OAA - British Airways
CTC-wings - Easyjet

[Jetset2012]

Just got a 737 interview

Happy days!:ok:

[Madder]

Not to be rude, but... ;)

Anyways, what is an experienced pilots these days? Plus 1500 on a jet/turboprop? Plus 2500 SEP/MEP but not typerated?

[Crash.Piloto]

Well 1000tt 800Jet CL65, I´m not experience at all since I can´t find a job so far, already 4 month non aviation working :ugh:

[Tex®]

When I was a child I always thought you had to be a super-human to do this job.
Now, in a different way, I can say I was right. :}

[Doug Down]

I can see from where you're coming from and feel that your realism has err, well squashed any ideas that I had as a middle aged man competing against Daddy's boys . .

[theuntoldstory]

p2f is now over.

the only 2 countries. indonesia and malaysia have stop this scam.


if you are thinking to pay one of these companies based in Florida or anywhere else , good luck, you may never fly a jet, and you wont see your money back as well.
this happened to 2 guys I know.it was a NOGO for them.

EASA will soon pass a new rule for 2011. no P2F in europe.allready prohibided in germany.

[d.shaw15]

like everything in life my friend its not what you know but who you know. make some contacts, meet some people who are in the industry and can open some doors for you, maybe get you the interview that you otherwise wouldnt have. I know i chose my training course because of the industry contacts involved with it. its run by an airline consultancy company who already recruit on behalf of the airlines and whos staff are on the interview and hiring panels for airlines and whom some of are still flying for part time. It may sound to some like in 'cheating' or taking the 'easy road' but you gotta do what you gotta do. these guys are getting airlines interested in us even though we only have 250hrs when we would normally be shunned by airlines for having such small hrs. its not like we are underqualified though, we each have our CPL, ATPL, MEIR, IREX and yes we may not have the experience of others but that comes with the jobs, cant gain experience without a job. We also have access to around 12 different sims when the time comes to type. yeah the training cost a lot, and i researched for about 24 months before choosing a course, but its no more than if i had of done it anywhere else.

Long story short go make some contacts. might not get you a job but gets your foot in the door for an interview at least.

[kilafaki]

Pay to fly schemes baned ???, is that really true ??, it will cost the traveling public money, and planes are not crasching in big numbers ??? .:yuk:
Documentation anybody ???

[wigwag]

I think its more wishful thinking than fact. Airlines will never say no to another income generating scheme, simply put it down to flight training.

I hope it would stop but cant see it, best way is to gain contacts and networking. Keep current and try to stay positive and yes you will still need that element of luck.

[Poeli]

theuntoldstory, do you have some sources for your info?
Thanks

[captainsuperstorm]

when you find an ad on line , no need to apply. 5 seconds later, they received 3000 CV.most of you, don't even fit their minimum.

seriously guys, you need a brain check.
This market is dead for several years (10 years at least)! Have you seen the number of unemployed pilots flooding this market?? airlines have enough pilots for the next 20 years.

What is an Airline pilots?

[yeongmsc]

I am a Singaporean in my early 30s. Just wish to share my experience of my failed attempts to start a flying career .
Over the last 7 years, I am an avid follower of this and other aviation forums. I also watched many flying related news (e.g. stalling/diving training clips on youtube, aircrash investigation on cable tv, salary comparison webpages, etc). I have an engineering degree, am physically fit and have near perfect eyesight. I have applied for but failed to clear the first stage of SIA pilot cadet program thrice between 2005 – 2007. I signed up for PPL training in Malaysia in 2007 and my AME speculated that my disclosure of childhood asthma had put me at a steep disadvantage for the SIA cadetship. However the AME felt that my childhood asthma should not affect my flying and cleared me for Class 2.
My brief foray into self-sponsored PPL training (I did not complete the training) made me realize that flying requires intense concentration but is not that difficult (I have advanced boat, kayak, car and diving licenses). However even completing the basic PPL training on self-sponsorship is both very expensive and time consuming. For the latter, I had experienced making a four hour round trip headache-inducing bus journey to the airport (across the border), waiting two hours for the rain to stop, before my allotted slot expires, and ended up wasting an entire day without even getting close to the Piper. Self-sponsored PPL training usually provides you with the minimal and cannot be compared to the breadth, depth, focus and experience of the instructors at full time cadetship.
Very recently an opening for Jetstar ‘Cadetship’ opened up. I applied and was selected for an interview at a local hotel in Singapore this Friday. After careful research and consideration, I declined to attend the interview. I had in fact taken 2 days of annual leave from work to come to this decision. The decision was not an easy one to make. Although it had no real adverse impact on my life, it signaled the end of my pursuit for my dream career.
My reasons of not pursuing the Jetstar opportunity further are,
1. I will not be actually embarking on a Jetstar cadetship. In reality I will only be entering into a PPL, CPL training contract with Oxford Aviation and thereafter an MOU (sort of) with Jetstar for the advanced/type ratings phase. Unlike the SIA cadetship, the possibility of being ‘left on your own’ for the initial few years are much higher. My first contact point (application) is with Oxford Aviation, not Jetstar. My second contact point (interview) is again with Oxford Aviation, not Jetstar. And I have to fork out a S$400 application fee. This fee is significant but not really a real burden for me. However it shaped my perception that my relationship for the next two years is with Jetstar and if any thing adverse occurs I cannot depend on Jetstar. Unlike the SIA cadet pilot program, Jetstar had not invested directly in me and have a stake in my training and future career progression.
2. Phase I PPL/CPL (AUD 80,000 training loan with bank + AUD20,000 meals and expenses) + Phase II (AUD60,000 training after deducting Jetstar partial sponsorship/bond + AUD20,000 meals and expenses) will put me in debt by almost AUD200,000 (including interest and other misc expenses). This amount excludes the AUD100,000 ++ for two years opportunity cost of quitting my current job.
3. I am planning to get married and start a family soon. Hence another ‘con’ on my cost-benefit analysis. I also tried reasoning from another perspective, if I am 7 years younger, will my decision be any different? I reckon that I will be less risk-averse but may not have the financial capability to pay for the out-of-pocket expenses (of almost AUD50,000). Hence I will still be able to take the Jetstar route.
4. For the flying aspect, I do have some doubts of my ability to fly the Airbus safely as a low hour direct intake pilot. i.e. in the worst case scenario of an emergency and with the Captain incapacitated or overwhelmed, can I still land the plane? I am doubtful that my few hours in the simulator during type training will be fully compensate for my lack of experience.
http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne+News/Singapore/Story/A1Story20100522-217882.html, http://www.relax.com.sg/relax/news/504238/Panicky_pilot_caused_Indian_passenger_jet_plunge.html
5. I recognize that fact the Jetstar is a budget airline and there is always and strong pressure for cost cutting. There’s also many similar views reported publicly and discretely by the Australian pilots at Jetstar. Will my compensation package get cut further, especially if Jetstar expands their recruitment in India or other ASEAN countries? This is a very likely possibility. Although I am prepared to be treated as a ‘commodity’, but have to face such reality 10-20 years later is another matter.
6. Will I enjoy flying or continue to enjoy flying even after I manage to join Jetstar two years later as a SO? I will be $200,000 in debt, on frequent standby, on a much reduced paycheck (compared to my current job), and not have time for anything else, at least for the initial few years until I am promoted to SFO. I will be 40 then. There after I will be fearing of either a furlough, a tail strike or developing an adverse medical condition. Either which will be a real possibility and may probably end a career. I have ageing parents depending on me, and I can risk this possibility.
7. At my 40s in my current job, financially, I will not be as well off as a Jetstar Captain with a full time wife/housewife at home but with the combined salary of my spouse, will still be pretty comfortable. Besides a dual, near mathching income diversify risks and lowers the income tax payable. The downside is I will have to fork out a fortune of a family holiday overseas annually. However I can always do without or downgrade such expectations anytime.
8. It is not the Jetstar program is bad. In fact it is a few notches better than the self-sponsored CPL-FI-hours building-CV sending to all airlines route. There’s a target, there’ structure, there’s a certain level of predictability and there’s assistance to help an aspiring pilot to get loans and some sponsorship. But unfortunately it’s just not sufficient enough for some people like me.
Will I still dream of flying as a career henceforth? I don’t think so. I am sad but have no regrets as I have tried hard to achieve my dream. Personally and retrospectively I could have tried even harder but I have other commitments and the sacrifices in attaining the dream is not for me to alone to bear. Especially for my age and circumstances.
Yup, I am still feeling sad. Hence this thread sharing.
For those of you who are still in the game, Good Luck.

[captainsuperstorm]

if you want my advice, go for it, but never use one dollar from your pocket.

they want you?, fine. but they have to pay!

I know guys who never paid anything in their training and they are still flying.

if someone ask me money to fly, I run away. pay me, or nothing! if you want a sucker, get a sucker,...

If you want be a good pilot, you should know how to say "show me the money".

[CaptainSox]

Show me the money! Show me the money! Show me the money.... You had me at hello...:D

[darkroomsource]

I don't think it has anything to do with whether he thinks he's a good pilot or not.

The fact is, if a company is taking on pilots who pay to fly for them, once that pilot has done their stint, got their rating, or whatever was agreed to, they will drop them and take on the next customer.

If you are paying to fly for a company, you are a customer, not an employee.

Some hiring companies will recognize that you were a customer, and not an employee and therefore discount the hours you accumulated. Some will not.

But the point is, you are not guaranteed a job after having paid an outrageous amount of money to travel around to places you don't really want to go, and get a rating that won't be worth much, becuase if it's not current, and you don't have several thousand hours, in todays market, you won't be able to just move to the next company as an EMPLOYEE.

Think about it folks, if a company pays their F/O USD 20,000 per year, and then decides to take on "customers" who will pay USD 20,000 to be a F/O, they immediately turn a profit of USD 40 K. And if they were to hire you at the end of the year, they'd all of a sudden show a loss of USD 40 K.
Multiply that by several hundred F/Os and it's millions of dollars a year.
There's no way a company that has you pay to fly will hire you.
So before you do that, you have to make sure there's a market for people with a rating and 800 hours more than you have right now - that's because in a year you'll build about 800 hours.
so if you've got 250 hours, and the minimums at the regional are 1500 hours, you're not going to have the minimums after having paid to fly, so you'll STILL be out of work at the end of the year, and by the time you get the 1500 hours, your rating will not be current, so it will be close to useless.

You need to do like people have had to do for centuries in every job there's ever been (with some minor exceptions, this IS the rule). You start at the bottom, and work your way up.
In an office, you start "in the mailroom", in flying you start as a CFI, or short ferry flights, or banner towing, or skydiving, or patrolling.

[captainsuperstorm]

I know a guy who bought 500h on 320.

he got 400h (small a/c) + 500 320= 900h total.

he finishes unemployed."apply when you have 2000h total"

this guy is good to pay 2 times 500h + 100h.

lost his money for nothing!!!

[darkroomsource]

I know a guy who bought 500h on 320.

he got 400h (small a/c) + 500 320= 900h total.

he finishes unemployed."apply when you have 2000h total"

this guy is good to pay 2 times 500h + 100h.

lost his money for nothing!!!

I'd be willing to wager that if he bought another 1000 hours on the 320 at the same place, so he had 2000 total, they'd tell him to come back when he has 3000 total.

Folks, they're making money having you pay to fly for them, why would they consider hiring you and paying you to fly for them?

And other companies look at you as a high paying passenger, and discount your hours.

[Poeli]

Pff, the last post just makes me depressed as a wannabe:ugh:
Is it that bad?
If just everyone could stop giving away money to fly with the ATPL:*

[darkroomsource]

Yes, it is/can be that way.
The point is that it's not the way to go.
You have to go the more traditional route, or you will be suckered.
Get the commercial, then either CFI or short ferry flights, pipeline patrol, banner towing, skydiving, then up to freight, then small charter, etc.
But there will always be the 1 in ten thousand who gets a job after having done a rating, with only 500 hours total - although it would be safe to think that he's got a connection within the airline, such as an uncle or father - who then makes everyone think it can be done.
A few years ago (2005-2008) the airlines were hurting for pilots, for numerous reasons, and they were willing to take on pilots with low time, some as low as 250 hours, whereas normally they require 3 to 5 thousand hours before they will look at you for a first officer position - that's the way it's been for the past 40 years, except for 2005-2008.
So there are several pilots who will tell you that they did a type rating, paid some outrageous amount of money, but now they're flying for XYZ airline, got on with just 500TT, and now have this and that and you should do it too. But, if they were hired between 2005 and 2008, you should discount anything they say about how easy it is to get hired.
However, if you find someone hired 2009-now or before 2005, then find out their story, and see what they did, if you can, you should follow their successful story.
Or better yet, go adopt a father or uncle at an airline.

[MainDude]

Wise words darkroomsource! Finally someone is making sense here

[zuluchief]

Remember, training is BIG business and there are many businesses that are involved in this sector. Unfortunately they will continue to survive while the demand continues.

[jodelboy]

Ok, newly minted CPL/IR plus ME, total time 330 hours, looking for a job. From what I gather the ONLY route open seems to be the Ryanair debacle. If you are accepted and can cough up the TR cash, you may get in.

SO PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, if you have gone through this process recently IS THI S HOW IT WAS? Or actually, has it turned out alright? Did you get posted to a distant outpost for 9 months and had to pay for accomodation etc? Have you been on standby for weeks on end not earning?

I am aware that I will need to eat s**t for a while, but to have no hope is pointless.

If that is the case, then surely, there has to be a way of redressing the balance.

[captainsuperstorm]

there has to be a way of redressing the balanceno, there is no way to redress the balance as long suckers like you pay these programs...
get a clue for once in your life of wanabe spoiled kid (I am not adressing directly at you, I am addressing generally at these poor 20-30 yo children living with mom), why an airline has to pay you when you are all willing to work for free or pay to work?.

don't have the choice? or my poor baby, do you think pay to work is the solution?

look at people in Egypt, they start to fight, down in the streets throwing rocks at each over.

Thanks God,we don't have to do that, we have just to keep our money.Keep your money, and get a proper job, and wait for a better economy.(this is what mature ADULTS do)

[zondaracer]

Jodelboy, are you really 48?

[Finals19]

The whole thing is a total mess - screwed if you do, screwed if you don't...

Problem is you come out of training, and (as I totally agree you should do) hold off on forking out on a TR (just wrong on all levels and a real gamble) and get a job on civvy street until things get better. However, a few years later you are arguably so far behind the 8 ball - re: currency and experience - that the freshies coming out are going to get hired first.

I've been holding out in civvy street, earning a modest living and waiting patiently for about 3 years now. I wasn't a new starter but a converter and have >1000hrs commercial experience. My concern is am I getting too rusty to get a look-in when things do start to move (and also my age). And this is WITH keeping some flying currency (MEP/IR rating etc).

And hence you end up back at the SSTR argument...etc etc :sad:

[portsharbourflyer]

Finals,

It makes me laugh everytime some associates pay to fly and sstr with degrading terms and conditions.

Look at the options, pay 6 or 7 k for an instructors rating so you can earn 15 pounds per hour flight pay only. Then if you are really lucky you might land a turboprop job with an excessive four year bond and astarting salary of 20K. Sorry but paying for a rating is really no worse than an excessive bond with a low salary. The idea of bonding may sound more preferable to paying for a rating, but you will soon realise most bonds actually stop you form being able to make decent living.

I have said the many times before the biggest contributor to the popularity of pay to fly and sstr is the appalling pay of flying instructors, the ever increasing bond values amoung the turboprop companies.

Quite simply for many individuals a pay to fly scheme is financially more viable and then spending years in GA earning next to nothing.

Besides take the cost of an instructors rating, then the price of a few IR renewals, and you are already at half the expenditure of a type rating.

Spend 12 months earning 15 pounds per hour flight pay only and for a good many of you the pay cut between a year of full time instructing and your previous job will be more than the price of a rating.

[Finals19]

Portsharbourflyer...

Fair enough - you are entitled to your opinion - although I personally don't share it.

SSTR and PTF have degraded terms and conditions and what's more has totally re-defined the industry (my opinion of course).

- pilots have become a mere expendable commodity as there is absolutely nil company loyalty to the pilot as an employee (indeed many are "contractors" now). There is zero financial risk to the company as they have no commitment at the training stage, so the pilot can be picked up and dropped again at company's convenience. Zero job stability whatsoever.

- Prior to SSTR, there was no paying for uniforms, paying for sim checks, paying for hotac when training etc etc. The company paid this for you, as you were a traditional employee in which they had invested time and money.

I agree that flying instructor pay is pretty deplorable - and always has been. That in itself should be rectified among with a few other things.

The TP salary you refer to is extracted from one example of one operator in the SW of the country? Again I agree that its a lot of money for a TR bond, but traditionally (like a multitude of professions) it was an excellent way to cut your teeth and hone your skills for a few years and then move on.

In an era where money talks, people now have no interest in real flying but rather in accelerating their earning potential. This assumes that you have the extra 30K in the first place to fork out for a TR.

[MCDU2]

It's interesting to note that there is no shortage of FR pilots wiling to jump ship to a career unionised airline such as the one I fly for. In fact many of them become quite outspoken about the degradation of t&c's once they get out and join the fold. Shame they couldn't show a bit of backbone before they jumped. Then our managers wouldn't continually be ramming down FR this and FR that at every pay round. To say there is no link between guys willing to pay and the current state of the industry is laughable.

[portsharbourflyer]

To generalise my previous statemens training bonds in the UK vary from 13000 to 42000 for turboprops, though in general they average at 18000 to 20000, with starting salaries between 20-24k. Infact Eastern Airways have now effectively switched from Bonding to a self sponsored scheme, spend 20k on a jetstream rating.

The low cost airlines have created alot of flying jobs that didn't previously exist, so ask yourself what would the pilot employment market be like with out them? Better ts and cs maybe but far less flying jobs.

[pilotpeet]

Well said & very true. In my opinion the experience is better anyway.

[Stratobus]

Ok not being too general, at times there is lots of rubbish talked on this forum, lots by peoples that paid for type rating and got no job, so are bit mad at the system, that I am understanding. 2009 I was working as Capt Airbus in Greece, economy is bad so changed to fly Boeing in Turkey, Ok for me was not problem to get job, we are bonded for 3 yrs on type rating... but for low time guys.. we took on about 20 with no hours and no type rating, deal was they do course and if they make standard they get job and are on training wage 2800 euro until passed line check then go on normal FO wage 4000 euro. If they do not meet standards, they still pay type rating costs. Nearly all got jobs, those two that did not were useless and should not have been even as pax.. Last month we took more FOs with higher hours, but they had jet time, not on type, but jet time. CRJ, RJ etc, problem for recruitment/ trainings dept is getting balance mix of low hours and experience, even if not experienced on type. Other problem is validation of licence by authority, Company still gave full type rating to guys that had bought type rating in past and bonded them again,,,why.. because they know standard of TRTO and then there is no excuse if trainings go bad..in short, even if pilot is typed, they still get full course, for Captains is short course, In Turkey there is still big pilot shortage as all airlines are expanding. FOs do DLR test.

[galleypower]

I second Stratobus, there are jobs for people without type rating. It might not be as good as years ago, but they still exist.

First thing you should is try is to get a position with your national carrier as a cadet if such a program is on offer. If this is not working out, you might wanna try the same approach in a neighboring country. If this still isn't producing the outcome you want, choose a decent school and get your CPL/IR/frozen ATPL. Then start to find a job, charter, FI, bizjet, regional. During the job search try to get a job at e.g. an FBO whre you meet pilots. An idela place to put your feet into the door. Then work your way up by doing a good job.

And don't forget: make sure you have a perfect CV.
I run a job website where pilots can upload their CVs and more than half of the CVs I would not even look at. Too many mistakes, typos or it comes in an inappropriate format. Sad but true!

[captainsuperstorm]

guys, to make galleypower happy to look at your cv ,dont forget to ad little flowers on your cv, pink paper and a zest of gay parfum ...he will hire you.:}

I wonder what he does with all these C.V.?

[galleypower]

Oh dear oh dear, you should take a course on how to use the web...don't believe everything you read...

[WaGwanMoFo]

Very glad I found this thread.

I was considering spending£100k with Pilot Training College in order to become a pilot. I was told how there is a massive boom in the Commercial Airline industry and that there was a surge in the demand for Pilots. Instead there seems to be thousands looking for a job.

Because of this I will now only consider a sponsored/ mentored cadetship. Anything else seems silly. If there's no job at the end of it then it's pointless.


I didn't realize how much the airline industry has been hit by the recession. A decent job is just very hard to get for young, newly qualified people regardless of what industry it is in. Therefore I think working for yourself is the best way forward.

[mad_jock]

Have a search on pprune for the advertising tricks of PTC.

They have offically been found wanting for telling the truth by the UK advertising standards.

[Axe2Grind]

"First thing you should is try is to get a position with your national carrier as a cadet if such a program is on offer"

Are you serious????
Rarley, No in fact.
You should take a course on how to use the web... believe everything you read.

[launchpad74]

Listen up buddy . . so many of us have been through it all.
I nearly tossed my CPL in the bin many times. Then one day a job opened up in Africa. It was fantastic. I havent looked back.
I do sympathise with you.
I now have over 3000 hours, most on caravans. I have an ATP, and experience as an airline loadmaster. this however counts for nothing, as most companies want you to sell your soul and pitch up with 737 and 319 ratings and 500 hours on type etc etc. Amazing how cadets from airlines in Kenya get a job on a 737 with 250 hours. scary thought!
if you have money, do a rating. If you have a frozen ATP, then try Qatar airways if ur under 25 I think. Many airlines in Europe and the USA will take you with low hours. in South Africa . . .forget it. . . .you need 1500 hours plus ATPL to fly as FO on a jetstream (if you can get past the politics). but if you have 700 hours, and daddy has a dc9 that you logged 200 hours on. you can get straight onto the Embraer . . . nice!
ps try tanzania. they are usually looking for new crew and expat pilots.

[zondaracer]

Many airlines in Europe and the USA will take you with low hours.

depends what you consider low hours. In the USA about 3 years ago, it was possible to get hired on a regional with 250hrs flying a TP, but not anymore. Now, you might meet hiring minimums at a regional airline with 800hrs, but by 2013, 1500hrs and your ATP will be the minimum in the USA, per law. but yeah, i guess you can consider 800hrs pretty low, at least american pilots think that 800 is really low for entry into a jet or TP airline.

[stuckgear]

Many airlines in Europe and the USA will take you with low hours.


the first step is obtaining the right to live and work in either location. then, you can start looking for a job. but low time guys are not having a good time of finding a job right now on either side of the pond.

[irishpilot1990]

launchpad i dont get your "scary thought" comment at guys on the 737 with less experience. 1000 hours flying cessna around is different ball game!

[captainsuperstorm]

Now, you might meet hiring minimums at a regional airline with 800hrs, but by 2013, 1500hrs and your ATP will be the minimum in the USA, per law

yes you are right, these suckers are shotting a bullet in their own feet.
they have just 2 years to get all their pilots with 1500h, or the airline will be grounded or kicked out.

let's see, if they hire now a lower time pilot, 200h, he has 2 years to make 1300h. 650 hours a year, so far so good.ok?

now next year, pilots will have only 1 year to make these magical 1300h to complete with his 200h, when airlines max fly is 1000h/year.Airlines are ******, and will hire guys with 650h at least so he will reach the 1500h TT in 1 year.

in 2 years, they will have to hire pilots with minimum 1500h . once all these guys are hired, what next? considering the surplus of pilot is 20%in the USA.
Once all these unemployed pilots are back flying for minimum salary, what will happen next?

If the airline industry need more pilots(to compensate retirements, pilots leaving for good the industry,...), will pilots borrow more money for a cpl and 1500h as a FI to be paid 800$ a month in a flight school?(when pilots have already 50'000-100'000$ debts?).

what bank will lend this money?nobody.Banks have learned their lesson. The Bankruptcy generation is over.

I predict USA will have a pilot shortage in 3 years.The peak will be in 2017,next crisis, maybe 2019... The airlines will be short of pilots willing to be paid **** and never make a living (first salary in a regional airline is 1300$ a month and they need 4000h at least to join a major airline, in the future major airlines will adapt salary for slaves).

I don't see any pilot shortage in the EU for these next 7 years as long we have these p2f(pay to fly ) schemes around . EU pilots or US pilots are once again ******!!

USA can not hire EU pilots. in worse case, they will train their own pilots (cadets).

in a general way, if you look at these last 20 years, there are not many job for pilots. The worst place are EU and India for low time pilots(due to a small General Industry).

How many young pilots I have met in my life?, hundred, most without job, and the amazing thing is to see the flight schools being overfilled by young chaps who don't know anything and most think they will fly a jet right after their expensive flight school (the "me me me or want all asap" generation").

Like a guy, not long time ago, told me he will fly a jet once he has his license and he has spent all his daddy cash in an expensive school . Now this muppet has nothing left, fly maybe 1-2 hours a month, he still survives with daddy money .

What this punk is going to do in 5-10 years? nothing...complaining there is no job and telling to everyone he did a mistake!
I am telling you, do something else more productive , learn a backup job where you can make real money and be happy:ok:.

[Cactus225]

Hey launchpad,

Thats quite an inspiring post there. Good to know that there are still jobs out there in Africa.

Its really sad the way people just jump straight from 152s n 172s to the 737s and 320s. most have my friends from the flying club have done that. (lets pretend they did it out of sheer hard work and big daddy's influence and money didnt have anything to do with it.)

However, I just want to fly a nice slow turboprop over a beautiful country and enjoy the flights staying away from busy airports and airspaces. Africa seems to be the place to do just that.
Problem is that I just have 263 hrs TT, FAA CPL on a PA34-200T, CFI is not an option cause I am not an american and they dont take outsiders. And I cant afford a trip down to Africa without any real leads to follow on.

You mentioned something about Tanzania being a place where they take on expats, is 263 hours TT enough to qualify for such jobs?

Since you are out there in Africa right now, I am sure you are aware about job market there, I would appreciate if you could advise me about my predicament. PM me if possible.

Thanks.

[pujandamani]

hi,guys can any one given me information about the job opening in tanzania ?how many hours do they need ?where are the opening ?any information will be much appericiated

[captainsuperstorm]

if you want fly in africa, tanzania,you have to know that 200-300h is not enough nowadays.
their minimum are actually around 2000h and this is to apply only. It doesn't mean you will get the job, but immigration & CAA will grant you a work permit & validation if you have their minimum.

I can tell you, there is noway to make your hours as there are not many jobs floating around. If there is a job available, you are very lucky, or you know someone.
Just applying, sending your CV after reading ads in newspaper is not enough, as 500 pilots are applying to the same job.
Pretty much if you see an ad looking for pilots, you are waisting your time as you will always find someone who has more experience than you.or you will find a pilot who is ready to pay more than you to fly a few hours.

The only way to get a job, is to know a friend who work for a company, or having a girlfriend who dad is the boss, or open your own company.

In my point of view, this market is saturated with low hours pilots, and the future doesn't sound very bright.Look at the last 20 years, training has always become more expensive, salaries are lower and lower to the point pilots now pay to work, fuel is more expensive and employees are treated like ****.

Actually nothing is showing a change in this trend.Degradation will be worse and worse. Sorry to not sound very rosy, but this is the hard reality of this profession, Ok, who is the next one willing to spend lot of money in a useless training to play the pilot with ray-ban and golden strips an with no real job at the end?. who 's next?:} after10 years, you will have flown maybe 300 hours, make some quids, and thats all. you will finish with no real profession at 40 living with dady and mommy , blaming the worldwide economy...do something else, for Pete' sake!!!

even if you land a job on Boeing, it' s not going to be enough to fly an airbus or any jet as most operator ask for 500h on type before getting the job. So if you are lucky , by example you land a job on a caravan or dash, or whatever..., you make your 500h on caravan, and then they kick you out or company close , where do you go then? fly a caravan all your life in the middle of the jungle, how do you go on jet if you have not jet experience?no multi pilot experience.
At the end, this profession become so limited than anyone trying to fly for a living will finish stuck in the rat race.

I am a captain, can not find a job, license older than 3 months old and I have to spend a fortune just to apply!!! and what I get in return, **** salary? bad T&C :uhoh:
see?I am stuck too!

[captainsuperstorm]

Wish I had a TR and some experience right now.

LR 60 is such an awesome aircraft.well nobody care about experience anymore, why not join one these airline schemes instead and finish in the street with T/R, no job, and a pile of debt.

as long you wish to play the pilots and have fun, why should they pay you. duh??:hmm:

would you fix my car for free, or clean my house for free? no!

so why some guys want pay to fly? you think it's a hobby? why don't you buy your own learjet and fly it for fun?

[cooky]

All, can anyone get me a new dad who holds a senior position in an airline (and preferably one who owns an airline). My dads crap, he runs a pub, how dare he, I want to get into flying! :ugh:

[Justapion]

When my ship comes in I'll be at the airport. I am currently teaching a 20 year old kid that has never had to wipe his own before and when he leaves me with 250~ hrs and a ME CPL he will go right into a 737 800... but I still have a pretty nice office with a view! Maybe a little un-coordinated but still nice! :ok:

Get in the air and stay in the air no matter what!

[aviationboy]

where are all the decent jobs this thread should be called. in Australia the only jet jobs available are a320 B scale pay 55k base (less endorsement!!) working 900hrs/yr, SINGAPORE BASE! All the other airlines are downsizing or completely dead.

guess i'll stay on the dash then :}

[Opti]

Woa! This has been such an eye opener. As a wannabe who's saving and planning to get into commercial aviation, I can say I have learned so much reading threads on here, especially this one. As if it weren't enough of a bummer to find out that obtaining an ATPL is difficult, now I know that type rating is another costly requirement that won't garauntee any jobs. Pffffffft, sitting here thinking of my chances at my dream career as a pilot with EK, I realize that I have better chances at becoming the queen of England! I don't know anybody in the aviation idustry and I keep reading that there are many unqualified wannabes getting jobs because of their dad's status, which if I see just one more time, I might lose whatever hope I have left.

This thread touches me very deeply. A year ago I was about to make a foolish sacrifice for aviation and I was about to go out on a limb to chase my dream. I really am saddened to hear things didn't work out for you or your friend. I hope you get good karma for grounding the wannabes, like me, and sobbering them up to the bitter reality of the situation.

[Poeli]

Same story Opti, except for EK then:ok:

[icare47]

Hi,

Does anybody Know if their are any jobs in Europe ?

I'm looking for information about jobs in Ryanair, Can anybody tell me about the working conditions ?

Are their any French pilots in Raynair ?

Thanks a lot

[bnt]

According to one of their pilot / instructors (http://www.fromtheflightdeckbook.com/2011/05/stay-senior-on-junior-equipment.html), that is:
Yesterday, an equipment bid closed. We are hiring. In fact, I''ll be teaching a class of 12 mid June. The equipment bid was not huge, but we need 17 B777 captains, 2 A330 captains and 5 B767 captains plus 13 Airbus 320 captains based in Toronto. But it's the heavier equipment I'm looking at...translating to at least 24 slots.
Right now we are short pilots. In fact, the equipment bid stated to expect summer training....a rarity.

[captainsuperstorm]

regrettably, no job....
I have check little bit everywhere, and it s still the same advertisements, already filled.

marketing purpose? need to give the impression that some XXX airlines are hiring?

I don't know, but sont think there will be job for a 300h pilot in the 5-6 years.

will never happen!:{

[Proudly Zambian]

You obviously haven't applied in the African markets. I know about 5 air charters being formed in 2 countries and about 2 nations are laying ground work to start national airlines. if i only finished my PPL on time (broke my leg and was grounded for 4 months) i'd happily be in sponsored training and flying with a CPL under my belt in less than 2 years from now.

My point is: drown in self pity and don't broaden your horizons, you will not go anywhere

[OberfuhrerPPRun]

Guten tag, good day - hello everybody. I would be happy to help a few, please contact me I might be able to hook some of you up with some contacts I have.

Cheerio everybody, and happy landings!

[OberfuhrerPPRun]

I am sorry I am a little new her, so maybe I make some mistake.

I am currently in California now, but expecting to be back in Europe tomorro.

If speaking German then this is helpfull. I have many year experience and I know some job out there, I just doin this to help some.

[OberfuhrerPPRun]

Jawohl, plenty of jobs around if you look under every rock and stone! I still think Mr Captain today, does not know what is required to get a job today, it is out of their reality.

But I am sure it can be a good business for us pilots to help young pilots get jobs. It is good they learn early in life, there is no free lunch!:ok: :}

[Eoni]

I think I'm in the same situation as other flight-pals as I can see here. I have been applying for all kind of pilot jobs all over the world almost two years :ugh: and I've just flown a season doing aerial advertising here in Spain. I really don't mind going to Africa, South America or wherever it takes to fly because for me (and also lot's of mates) my passion is flying, I don't care where, which aircraft, schedules... If it's so easy to find places to apply and soon enough get a job I'd like to know... what's wrong with me and all the people in the same situation :confused:?

I'm still hopeful to find a job soon wish it's not just another mirage.

Happy landings!

[captainsuperstorm]

thats the problem with all of you, it's "my passion", "me me me". you all think it's about yourself only and you make yourself miserable.

why don't you turn a little bit to others instead to focus on your egocentricity.
you will never get rid of your aviation bug with this attitude.

be careful, I have been infected too but now with experience and age, I can see where your are heading if you don't take proper steps for your mental equilibrum.:}

[hoofhearted]

Demand for airline pilots set to soar - USATODAY.com (http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/story/2011/06/Demand-for-airline-pilots-set-to-soar/48661596/1)

Hang in there.:ok:

[captainsuperstorm]

all bullock!!! i can prove it.
keep dreaming!:

•The rapid growth of travel in Asia, which is on track to surpass North America as the largest air travel market in the world;
yes as long you are chinese citizen. no job for EU pilots.


•A looming wave of pilot retirements in the USA (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Countries/United+States);
this has been said for the last 30 years, didn't really happen.





•Proposed changes to rules that could increase the time pilots must train, rest and work;


you need 1500 to work, how do you get a job if everyone need 1500h, general aviation in Europe? duh?, or become a a flight instructor at 800$ a month for 3-4 years with 60'000 debt in the USA?




•And increasing demand for air travel within the USA as the economy improves.


not sure, people now prefer web conference, skype,...and train!


PLUS: chinese have now their own planes, train their own pilot...
guys, just forget aviation, been there for 30 years, never made any money of it! jsuyt a profession for rich spoiled kids or dreamers.:ugh:

For as long as he can remember, Costas Sivyllis has dreamed of becoming a pilot.


http://i.usatoday.net/travel/_photos/2011/06/17/Demand-for-airline-pilots-set-to-soar-6663M4A-x.jpg (http://i.usatoday.net/travel/_photos/2011/06/17/Demand-for-airline-pilots-set-to-soar-6663M4A-x-large.jpg)Getty Images
"Miracle on the Hudson" pilot Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger in a US Airways jet in October 2009.

Enlarge



Getty Images
"Miracle on the Hudson" pilot Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger in a US Airways jet in October 2009.





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"There was no specific moment," says Sivyllis, 20, a junior at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Embry-Riddle+Aeronautical+University). "I've grown up my whole life knowing this was it."
Sivyllis hardly could have picked a better time to enter his chosen profession, and he knows it. "I'm very excited about the future … because we've never really seen anything like this," he says.
After nearly a four-year drought of job openings, the airline industry is on the brink of what's predicted to be the biggest surge in pilot hiring in history. Aircraft maker Boeing has forecast a need for 466,650 more commercial pilots by 2029 — an average of 23,300 new pilots a year. Nearly 40% of the openings will be to meet the soaring travel market in the Asia-Pacific region, Boeing predicts, but more than 97,000 will be in North America (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Regions/North+America).
"It is a dramatic turnaround," says Louis Smith (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Louis+Smith), president of FltOps.com, a website that provides career and financial planning for pilots. "Pilot hiring was severely depressed in the last three years. The next 10 years will be the exact opposite, with the longest and largest pilot hiring boom in the history of the industry."
The demand for pilots will be so great that the industry could ultimately face a shortage, sparking fierce competition among airlines across the globe vying for candidates qualified to fill their cockpits.
"We're already seeing in some spots around the world a shortage of pilots … and if you were watching this a few years ago at the last peak, you had airlines stealing from other airlines," says Sherry Carbary, vice president of flight services for Boeing Commercial Airplanes in Seattle. "It's a global marketplace for pilots, and … we'll not have enough if that growth trend continues over the next few years. That's something the industry needs to come to grips with. Where is our pipeline of new pilots going to come from, and how are we going to finance them?"
The hiring surge is being fueled by several factors:
•The rapid growth of travel in Asia, which is on track to surpass North America as the largest air travel market in the world;
•A looming wave of pilot retirements in the USA (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Countries/United+States);
•Proposed changes to rules that could increase the time pilots must train, rest and work;
•And increasing demand for air travel within the USA as the economy improves.
U.S. carriers had 4.9% more pilots in 2010 than in 2009, with much of the increase fueled by low-cost carriers that are continuing to expand, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation's Bureau of Transportation Statistics.
Low-cost airlines such as Southwest, Virgin America (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Organizations/Companies/Transportation,+Travel,+Hospitality/Airlines/Virgin+America+Airlines) and AirTran increased their pilot staffing 11.2% in 2010 over 2009, while regional carriers increased their pilot numbers by 4.9%. Major network airlines, however, saw their pilot workforce drop 1.3% last year, the bureau says.
"The cost of the fuel has spooked a few carriers," Smith says, noting that the massive earthquake and tsunami in Japan have also had some impact. But, he says, the industry-wide hiring explosion is "still on track."
Finding jobs over there
Many new pilot opportunities are in Asia, particularly China, where the rapidly growing economies are spurring a demand for air travel.
Beijing became the second-busiest airport in the world last year, and Boeing projects that the region will need 180,600 pilots in the next two decades, 70,600 for China alone. In March, Boeing announced that Hong Kong Airlines was planning to buy 38 aircraft.
Air China (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Organizations/Companies/Transportation,+Travel,+Hospitality/Airlines/Air+China), pending government approval, plans to buy five 747-8 Intercontinental jets. Bigger fleets mean "more resources needed to support those planes," Carbary says.
U.S. airlines, many of which are expanding their reach into Asia, also will need to widen their pilot pools to handle the lengthy flights.
"Say you wanted to start a route from Chicago to Shanghai," says Les Westbrooks, a former commercial pilot who's now an associate professor of aeronautical science at Embry-Riddle. "That one route alone could require an airline to hire 40 additional pilots" because of the staffing and equipment requirements for such a long journey.
Across the USA, the need for pilots will be sparked by increasing passenger demand, and perhaps most significantly, an exodus of senior pilots that is expected to start next year, as a large wave of pilots hits the age of 65, which is the mandatory retirement age for airline pilots under federal law.
The mandatory retirement age "is starting to catch up with us," says Westbrooks, noting that many of those scheduled to retire joined their airlines during hiring booms in the 1980s and '90s. "The large-scale hiring we had then is now turning into large-scale retirements, which will require replacements to maintain the status quo."
The increasing need for pilots is almost all the flying community talks about, Sivyllis says. "That's definitely the big news around not only our campus but (among) anybody who's a flight instructor or entering the entry level of the industry," he says. "The top level of the industry is going to open up, and when it does, it will open fast."
A full-time student, and a flight instructor with 600 flight hours under his belt, Sivyllis' goal is to be a captain, flying to Europe for a carrier such as Delta or United.
But flying for a commercial airline is far from the only opportunity that will be tempting such young pilots as Sivyllis, says Westbrooks. "There's competition from other types of pilot occupations, such as … corporate flying, that's going to limit the supply."
Come fly for us
As worldwide competition for pilots begins to heat up, some overseas carriers are making dramatic overtures to fill their cockpits.
Emirates, the Dubai-based carrier, will hire more than 500 pilots by April 2012, says Michael Keating, the airline's flight crew resourcing specialist. The carrier already employs roughly 300 Americans as pilots, and is visiting job fairs in New York City (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Towns,+Cities,+Counties/New+York+City) and Las Vegas (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Towns,+Cities,+Counties/Las+Vegas) to seek candidates. "As a rapidly expanding carrier, with 153 aircraft … plus another 200 planes on order, and options for more, the need for flight crew professionals continues to grow," he said in an e-mail.
The compensation package for these pilots includes perks such as a chauffeur-driven car to and from work, an education allowance for the pilot's family, and profit sharing.
Though English is the international language of aviation, Westbrooks says Spanish-speaking students also are being sought by Latin American (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Latin+American) airlines. "We have airlines knocking on our doors," he says. "If you can speak Spanish fluently and can fly an airplane, wow, you can write your own ticket."
There are concerns whether there will be enough pilots to meet the industry's needs.
Airlines, struggling in recent years to stay afloat amid a global recession and rising fuel costs, weren't focused on cultivating new pilots. Many young people who might have sought a career in aviation a generation ago turned their attention to software companies or other industries, turned off by a field in which opportunities were scarce, benefits were eroding and starting pay at regional carriers was low, some analysts say.
"We've got to attract qualified people, smart people into the industry and you're going to spend $50,000 to $60,000 on flight training, plus your college (costs)," Westbrooks says. "You've got a guy who'll walk out $100,000 in debt, and we're going to tell him, 'We'll pay you $22,000'? The airline industry has relied on passion for years — that people love to fly and will do whatever they have to do to fly. But there comes a time when it's a matter of dollars and cents."
The average starting salary for a pilot at a regional carrier is roughly $21,000 a year, while the most senior captain, flying the largest plane at a major airline, typically makes more than $186,000 a year, according to FltOps.com.
Carbary adds, "You're seeing kids coming out of school wanting to go to Microsoft or Google, and frankly, the technological developments going on in aviation are now as … robust (as) that in some of the software fields. So part of it is reminding people of that and trying to attract them back to aviation."
Sean Cassidy, a pilot for Alaska Airlines (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Alaska+Air+Group+Airlines) and first vice president of the Air Line Pilots Association International, which represents more than 53,000 pilots in the USA and Canada, says that "whether or not we could meet those (pilot hiring needs) domestically depends on how robust the hiring process is, how lucrative it is to attract new entrants into the industry, especially at the regional level."
Small airlines, big losses?
Smith believes that regional U.S. airlines, which often are the first rung on the career ladder for pilots, could be hit particularly hard as their ranks are recruited and depleted by larger carriers in the U.S. and overseas.
"We suspect they're going to lose thousands of (pilots) to the folks above them," he says.
Roger Cohen (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Roger+Cohen), president of the Regional Airline Association, disagrees.
"Today, flying for a regional airline for many individuals has become their career," says Cohen, noting that while opportunities at larger carriers have decreased amid several mergers, pay is rising in the regional sector, and pilots are able to fly larger and more sophisticated aircraft. "They make lifestyle choices to stay at regional carriers because benefits, compensation, (and the) type of flying suits them well."
"This notion Americans are going to all of a sudden, because they're trained pilots, are going to go fly in India; it's still not the good old USA," he says. "What we just need to do is open up the mouth of the pipeline even wider, attract more people, get them into the programs and trained. This is really where the government has a major stake."
For those already in the pipeline, the sky may literally be the limit, as pilots possibly win back benefits and perks that airlines cut in recent years amid restructuring efforts.
"My son just got hired by a regional airline, and I told him, 'Your career is going to be explosive,'" Westbrooks says. "It's going to be a pilot's market."

[vdaff]

@hoofhearted

I been reading those kind of news since 2008 when i started to train, its been nearly 3 years still i got nothing all i have is 200 plus hrs

[stuckgear]

I been reading those kind of news since 2008 when i started to train, its been nearly 3 years still i got nothing all i have is 200 plus hrs


yeah ? i've been reading about them since the early 90's. in fact ever since the first flight at kitty hawk, a pilot shortage has been predicted.

[captainsuperstorm]

well said!

but where are all pilots? there is less and less people on these forums.

many aviation webistes don't even exist anymore.
some of my friends have given up aviation due to money shortage!

there will be a monkey shortage very soon! i am not ineterested by their 500h of "line training"(work for free then get out of our cockpit !!!)

been captain for years, .... them!

[Opti]

I need a new dad
All, can anyone get me a new dad who holds a senior position in an airline (and preferably one who owns an airline). My dads crap, he runs a pub, how dare he, I want to get into flying! :ugh:


You're funny. You should be a comedian. I bet they travel a lot -__-

you'll probably go around the world twice, and we'll still be here, sitting on our arses, trying to figure a way to get to fly a plane. :P

[Booglebox]

in fact ever since the first flight at kitty hawk, a pilot shortage has been predicted.

Aviation job security arguably got off to a bad start. Orville and Wilbur had to toss a coin to decide who got to fly that day! :E

[Officer Kite]

If you have £110,000 and a pulse you can get a job with Easyjet or Ryanair - is this still true?

Are you trying to suggest the easyjet mpl and modular route to attempt ryanair is easy ? :rolleyes:

This notion that having the 110k will get you onto easy, qatar or whoever else with ease is nonsense. Everything is EXTREMELY COMPETITIVE !

[Officer Kite]

as long as you can find £110,000 and are reasonably intelligent

I would disagree, it is far from easy and people from very high ends of the job spectrum (lawyers etc) haven't managed to get onto a ctc programme. I don't know what your current situation is but I would encourage you to try the CTC selection test for an airline programme and see if you still hold the same views after it. It isn't just aptitude/maths etc, the interview I would say is even harder.

[Whiskey Hotel]

I'd agree 100% with officer kite. Having the money is simply not enough. There are guys out there with all the required licences and some with 250hrs and some with upwards of 1000hrs who are doing instructing or groundschool instruction who still cannot get jobs. It seems that there is some demand for pilots with 2000hrs+ jet hours and these are getting jobs with various airlines, but the market is very tough for low hours pilots. Also, some airlines require you to fork out 15-20k plus for type ratings, so this is an added cost to your training costs. I'm doing I've modular route and I honestly don't know if it will pay off, some say that demand will increase significantly in the next few years with a lot of pilots going to the Middle East therefore opening up new first officer positions in western Europe. But there is a huge over supply of low hours graduates at present, which makes it a quite unattractive prospect for new people considering becoming pilots. Supply is greater than demand, therefore many pilots are sitting on the shelf for the past number of years, and sadly, many will remain in that position.

[Journey Man]

As I understand it, as long as you can find £110,000 and are reasonably intelligent, and can get a CPL/IR, you're in. It might take a bit of waiting, but everyone gets a job via CTC if they wait long enough? That's what my mate who works for easyjet as a pilot says.


Well that sounds rock solid information. I'd definitely financially throw everything at the problem with such guarantees. In fact, I can't believe banks still want guarantors for large loans, considering such a cast-iron guarantee from Hecate's mate in the Orange mob.

[Mickey Kaye]

Is the modular route really worth it anymore? What big companies still hire non-CTC people?

Numerous I know 2 people who have recently got airline jobs and another who just landed a corporate job.

And exactly how do people get those cushy Citation/Lear Jet jobs based out of Biggin Hill?

They get a good name for themselves usually at some local flying school and word of mouth takes it from there. They usually have more than 200 hours mind.

[faacfilookingforajob]

some say that demand will increase significantly in the next few years with a lot of pilots going to the Middle East therefore opening up new first officer positions in western Europe

wrong, pilots go to middle east because they can not find jobs in Europe.
Why do you think US pilots fly in china? it' s because they can not find a decent job in their country.

Europe is doomed,3% recovery is not enough to create jobs so the next 5 years will be tough.:ugh:

[Whiskey Hotel]

So how do you explain the exodus of Ryanair and easyjet pilots going to etihad and emirates? Pay is far better, better job prospects and a better quality of life. Only snag is the requirement of 3000-4000+ jet hours In order to get into one of those carriers.. Many pilots in low cost carriers in Europe are just biding their time and building hours to make the jump to the Middle East.

[faacfilookingforajob]

and how do you explain the mass of unemployed pilots in this case?

get real! jeez! there is no pilot shortage, there is not enough jobs for all of us.