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Vito Corleone
17th Jul 2007, 22:59
So where are all the jobs then, :mad: if I know?
Spend 40 grand and put my heart and soul into getting my flight training done, first time passes on all tests and exams.
Spend the last 6 months of my life putting my heart and soul into sending out CVs filling in online forms, phoning up airlines, chasing any kind of faint job opportunity and what do I have to show for it, nothing. Complete waste of time. Not so much of an interview.
Yet I have stood and witnessed numerous people getting jobs because of who their father is within weeks of finishing training. Do they deserve it any more than me?

Is there any other industry where people trying to get their foot on the ladder have to go through so much demoralising crap, the longer they go without work the more they will get overlooked due to their currency dwindling and ratings lapsing? Where people stand still and watch their peers going places and building lives whilst theirs stagnates and rots?
At this moment in time if I could go back two years and not get into this stinking situation in the first place, I would do so with pleasure. Attempting to become an airline pilot thus far feels like the biggest mistake I have ever made. But I will not give up now that I have come this far. I will never surrender (at least for the time being) and maybe one day this disgusting situation will resolve itself. Right now my anger is driving me on to keep on trying. Sooner or later however the time may come to call it a bad job and get on with life, as many do.

Im sorry if this sounds discouraging to other wannabes but I feel that there are too many on this forum who have an unjustified optimism with respect to getting their first job. I was one such person. I went into this whole thing blind and foolish, thinking "ill be alright, ill be one of the lucky ones" etc etc, foolish thoughts.

Ive no doubt this post will be met with the usual:
"well if thats yer attitude then u dont deserve a job......"
"keep on trying, and one day something will happen........"
etc...., say what u like.

papazulu
17th Jul 2007, 23:03
Go back to the land of your "grandparents"! There is the company you need and with THAT nick you should not have problems at all!

Don't say you like horses, anyway...:E

Vito Corleone
17th Jul 2007, 23:13
maybe I should just make BA an offer they cant refuse!

SD.
18th Jul 2007, 00:26
I know EXACTLY how you feel mate, I'm in the same position but with a few hours instruction under the belt.

Not even a sniff, one thing to look foward to (if you could call it that) is hopefully the flood gates will open up at the back end of the summer.

Chin up fella :ok:

nike
18th Jul 2007, 01:55
Don't ever let hard work get in the way of self pity.

How dare they ignore thou in all thine glory.


Curious about the offer though, do tell.

bri1980
18th Jul 2007, 06:39
Rule 1. Don't get down-there are plenty of us wish we were in your situation (believe me).

Rule 2. Keep sending CVs. I read only yesterday that Flybe are looking for F/Os and will consider low hours guys.

Rule 3. Don't be afraid to write to all the top guys chief pilots etc: you only need one to say, this guy has some front-let's see him!

Keep at it-tomorrow is always a new day and the interview and offer might be just around the next corner!

pressed_on
18th Jul 2007, 06:51
Unfortunately in this business and in most in the world it sometimes is a case of who you know not what you know. We see it all the time.

From my experience, was waiting eight months for a position to come up to move up from the bottom rung of the ladder. No bites at all and then suddenly within 3 weeks I had 3 companies offering me a position! talk about bad timing. I would have done any of them, but apparantly at the time I was wanted so I got to choo choo choose my preference. wow, don't get to say that very often!:ok:

Superpilot
18th Jul 2007, 07:03
Tis why I always prat on about having a decent job during and after flying training. It will cushion the blow you will receive after 2 years have passed without a job (plus give you the money to SSTR :yuk:)

Luke SkyToddler
18th Jul 2007, 07:05
SIX MONTHS - you poor little diddums! :{

Gee aren't you glad you didn't graduate at the end of '01 ...

topper74
18th Jul 2007, 07:34
Yeah 6 month .. dont worry. . I would say you have finished ur flighttraining at a time where the buisness finally is getting better.
I finished in 2002 and I waited 4.5 years to get a job :yuk: .
I finally decided to pay for my own TR, which did the trick and now i have my first job.
But ofcause... we all know how u feel.... I guess 90% of us hae been in the same and properly worse situation than u.
And I guess some of us(me included) have had theese moments where we thought this dream of flying never will come true.


But.

1. KEEP TRYING
2. Concider buying ur own TR (I know not everybody here agrees on this matter... but it has worked for a lot of people)

I wish u the best of luck :ok:
cheers

beamer
18th Jul 2007, 07:47
Vito

So just how many flying hours do you actually have and how are they broken down ?

CAT3C AUTOLAND
18th Jul 2007, 08:01
Don't mean to stick the boot in chaps, but surely after doing your research, you knew what you were letting yourself in for? Most people know getting a job at the end of your training is equally has hard as the training itself. Everyone has put 110% of effort into their training and lots with first time passes, so I am afraid it does not make you unique.

To wait 6 months isnt long mate, there are plenty of people who have waited years for their first job, myself included. Don't let the dissapointment get you down, and certainly don't let it affect your attitude towards the industry. If you are determined enough you will make it.

The comment at the end of your post does indicate to me you are a little bitter, but believe me most of us have been there at one time or another.

YYZ
18th Jul 2007, 08:06
Doing what you're done so far is fine, but it's not working?
Have you tried to increase your experience? Many including myself did not walk into a job straight from the end of training, we had to make ourselves look better, Instructing seems to be the best way to go, but there are others jobs if you can find them, ferry pilot, Para dropping, aerial photos, banner towing etc
Don't just target airlines; broaden your horizons.

Good Luck
YYZ

dartagnan
18th Jul 2007, 08:19
Everybody is sick of this situation, and your post shows the truth and I would like all wannabes to read it before spending lot of cash in their training.

Times to times I met young guys telling me there is a shortage of pilots...and don't want believe me, when I answer they are short of very experienced captains.
They are on their way to spend all their cash,instead to learn a real job. They are foolish!

...resulting there are just to many pilots and not enough job offers.Everybody want a part of the cake, but when the cake is gone, the cake is gone!

So you have to apply, send many CV, and get another job during this time.Including cleaning restrooms if you have to.With money saved you can fly as a flight instructor, or buy a t-rating,...

this is what I 'm doing(lousy jobs), and I am in this business since 12-13 years and logged thousand of hours(cargo, para,instructor,...).12 years of struggling.Does it worth?not for me anymore....but why should I do something else?give up?

Recently I talked with my relatives, and I explained them that having done a t.rating on the bus, all I can do now is to apply and take a bad paid job during this time unless they want create a company only for me to get a job.

Airlines are here to make money, not to make you happy and they wont give you a job, because you said so.They will give you a job if they need more pilots in their new planes.

This industry is up an down.You have to see it as a worldwide industry.
By chance, the aviation industry is improving every month(many airbus sold recently, many orders for the next 5 years...), so keep looking.Jobs will come if you are persistent :ok:.

Callsign Kilo
18th Jul 2007, 08:56
It's a real pisser when we invest so much time, effort and above all, money in something and then struggle to see the end result. However the end result is there, I am sure. A bit of positive mental attitude, and it will happen.

I only qualified in May, so I have been in the market for only a short time. I have spoken to lots of contacts and they have all tried to lend their support, however I always try not to build my hopes up too high. I realise that it is pretty unlikely that I will walk into a job immediately. As much as I hope it would be true, I always tried to tell myself and those I love that it probably won't happen. But I never want to keep my eyes off the bigger picture and I know I will get there soon. I am looking to start an FI course asap and I was lucky to get some 'ferry' flying from my local club last month. I have also been offered a few trips in a King Air to gain some operational experience. I know I will learn a lot from it. There are loads of airlines up here that require operational staff at the major Scottish airports. I am only 5mins from GLA and will probably be looking in that direction soon.

All these things will help the cause. I KNOW IT :ok:

Luke SkyToddler
18th Jul 2007, 08:59
Harden up you bunch of muppets, its nothing but apathy and unwillingness to do REAL hard work (and I don't count sitting around sticking stamps on CVs as hard work sorry) and a greedy desire to jump the queue and nothing else that causes all this bloody whinging.

If you guys could for one second lose this ****ing obsession you've all got with big jets straight out of flying school, go do what the entire rest of the world does when they want a jet job, and EARN the right to fly the damn thing by working your way through the ranks. No I don't mean what you guys normally consider demeaning work which is lowering yourself to applying to Flybe instead of BA, I mean go and fly a bloody SINGLE PISTON again. Go and get yourselves FI ratings you'd all have jobs tomorrow, the schools are crying out for them. Oh but it's not glass cockpit multi crew turbine I hear you crying, not good enough for us British and european 200 hour guys, that kind of work is for colonials and americans and in fact the entire rest of the world.

Come back here when you've got a couple thousand instructing hours and can't get a 19 seat turboprop job and you'll get plenty of sympathy from me, come back again when you've got 5000 hours on the turboprop and still can't get that Boeing and you'll get plenty more. If you are fresh out of school and you aren't prepared to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to stay current and get some hours in that logbook then I sincerely hope that the people who showed some motivation and are busting their balls flying charters and parachutes and students, all get the jobs before you because they deserve it 1000 times more.

No doubt this post will cop me all kinds of flak from all you unemployed integrated lot. After you've written your paragraph venting your frustration at this arrogant old school airline hack, I would appreciate it if you could please append your post with a simple 'yes' or 'no' I do have an FI rating, and if not why not.

Vito Corleone
18th Jul 2007, 09:35
Flying instruction, 6 grand outlay to get a job that will pay u what, 10 k a year?

U tell anybody else that who isnt a pilot they think ur mad. Yet in this rediculous world of aviation it seems like a good idea, like spending 40k to be unemployed, like paying 20k, buying ur own uniform and paying for ur own acommodation at ryan air seems to be like a good idea. All because pilot is such a good job, or so we think.

Every time I take a step back and look at what I am doing/ have done from a real world perspective, ie not from a perspective of somone who is desperate (dont know why to be honest) for some reason to fly planes for a living it makes my blood boil. At the moment I couldn't give a toss if I never flew a plane again, the only thing that's keeping me going with it all is the 40k "investment" I have made.

shaun ryder
18th Jul 2007, 09:46
'Hear Hear LST!' LOL! I could not agree more. Stop whinging and get qualified to instruct. Use your licence and get some experience under your belts! It always winds me up how people expect to by pass doing some form of apprenticeship in aviation. There simply are not enough jobs out there for you greener than grass wannabes ok!! Get your arses out flying some instructional stuff and maybe air taxi if you are lucky. Trust me, your oh so 'well done first time passes' mean nothing when competing for jobs against these guys. Let me tell you that the airlines are mostly overcrewed at the moment, the lo-cos are starting to cool, there are still jobs out there, but are they all for 200hr wannabes?

Guess what, No!

STATLER
18th Jul 2007, 09:54
Luke has it about right,

Get an FI rating and you will find employment today, put your heart and soul into it. If you cant and FI rating look at glider tugging or para dropping. The rest will come with time.
I did three years instructing and then two years tuboprop and to be honest those five years were the best time i've had so far and taught me more that I could hope. Mainly because I flew during my turboprop time with some true veterans of the industy and to be honest that time was invaluable.

I've now done 2.5 years in a loco of which the last 8 months have been left seat.

A jet job with 200 hours is what everyone seems to want these days but only the lucky few seem to get it straight from training.

YYZ
18th Jul 2007, 10:32
Indeed, LST is not as delicate as me but he does hit the nail on the head, I only know a few who were lucky and got there first job on a jet, others had to Instruct (like me) etc, I even know several people who did cabin work for 6 months so they could get in via the back door!! None of these jobs are menial or should be below any of us! I really enjoyed my instructing, and as a plus, got reasonably well paid for it!

Do what you need to do; just because you have your magic blue book does not mean you are owed a job.

YYZ

TurboJ
18th Jul 2007, 11:32
Luke Skytoddler - what a fantastic post - you took the words out of my month and wrote it far better than I ever could have.

I have flown (and still do) the single piston as an FI, and am now on the 31seater tp, having a great time. To get here, I have had to work my butt off and not just sticking stamps on envelopes !!

I know people straight out of flying school who have recently turned down jobs on turboprops because it was only a turboprop and not a jet. Now they are on jets they are still not happy because they have to drive an hour each way to the airport. You see, these people not only think they are owed a living, but they want it all on a plate - all part of the 'I want it now' brigade.

VC - My advise - get an FI rating - get some hours and experience; fly the aircraft yourself, make your own mistakes - get networking - all my airline jobs so far have been because I know somebody.

Good luck, stick at it.....

bermudatriangle
18th Jul 2007, 11:57
well said luke.....i endorse the flight instructor route,start hour building and keep banging out the cvs.....a turboprob position will become available when you accrue a few hundred hours of instructor time...oh and complaining of spending 40 grand on your flight training,i feel you got off very lightly,so the 3 grand for your instructors rating will be well invested...good luck and don't get disheartened,it's a career of ups and downs,literally !

dizzy izzy
18th Jul 2007, 12:08
VC! What an eye opener!

I 'm coming towards the end of my PPL and about to embark on the intergrated CPL.

From what you're saying - job wise- it sounds, well, bleak! I'm packing in my job as a solicitor to train as a pilot and I know it's a BIG gamble but certainly one I'm willing to take. It's absolutely crazy what we are willing to put ourselves through to get into this profession and I sometimes think I must be losing the plot! :ugh:

VC, It's so disheartening, but all I can say is stick with it! If your determined enough, you WILL get a job.

Good luck:)

TurboJ
18th Jul 2007, 14:55
Dizzy - It isn't bleak at all - there are jobs out there. The problem in my view is that there is a bread of integrated student who believes that they can leave flight school and walk straight into the RHS of a narrowbody jet aircraft; nothing more, nothing less; and only a Boeing or Airbus will do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this way, but what winds me up is the fact that there is the belief that anything less is inferior.

In fact in my short time in the industry I have overheard conversations between integrated students complaining that they don't want to fly for Airline x because they fly to places that are are relatively unheard of, even though they fly Airbus'. Others who get offered jobs on a tp but turn them down because its 'only a tp and they only fly a few routes.'

Practically speaking this is the route many integrated and also modular students now take. However, it is not the only route. There, is instructing, banner flying, para dropping, air taxi, air charter, biz jets, just to name a few. Once hours and experience have been built you can climb the ladder and progress to the narrowbody and beyond.

Just because one person hasn't gone the direct entry jet route doesn't mean the situation is bleak. It means that they may have to find another route to fulfil your ambition.

The key to job hunting is also to network. Somebody somewhere knows somebody who can help you. A CV put on the right desk from the inside is better than the CV landing on the same desk through the post !

Charley
18th Jul 2007, 15:24
The problem in my view is that there is a bread of integrated student who believes that they can leave flight school and walk straight into the RHS of a narrowbody jet aircraft; nothing more, nothing less; and only a Boeing or Airbus will do.

Sadly that's a view not exclusively held by integrated students, in my experience.

I can only echo the sentiments of LST and YYZ. In fact I can say that, between YYZ and myself, we have covered a range of different jobs before the first of us got our 'big' break; instructing, ferrying aircraft for maintenance, dropping parachutists, aerial survey, etc.

Some newly-minted CPL/IRs appear to turn their nose up at such things, either because they don't see it as adequate reward (and it isn't always financially rewarded) for their investment or because they just feel that they'd somehow be 'slumming it' by stooping so low.

Commercial flight training tests ones intellect and skill. I'd say that the period immediately afterwards will be the test of ones character.

The Streets
18th Jul 2007, 15:55
Hmm, I know BAC Express who normally take low hour guys in to work in Ops for a period and then 'help' them out with a type rating have a few vacancies, sent me a PM if you want a contact.

There is a lot worse jobs out there and the salary (I think) is reasonable.


Mike S.

bri1980
18th Jul 2007, 15:57
Perhaps the integrated belief that only a jet will do stems from the fact that only a jet salary will do to pay off a loan for an integrated course?!?

Personally, once I have a licence anything will do: hours are housr and an unfrozen ATPL is far more valuable than a frozen one at 300 hours!

Superpilot
18th Jul 2007, 16:16
The problem in my view is that there is a bread of integrated student who believes that they can leave flight school and walk straight into the RHS of a narrowbody jet aircraft; nothing more, nothing less; and only a Boeing or Airbus will do.


and

Sadly that's a view not exclusively held by integrated students, in my experience.

It's not just integrated but all types of wannabe and why do you suppose this is why? It's not only about obsession with twin jets but is borne out of the fact that ferry flying, paracute dropping and instructing are all extremely low paid jobs that cannot even pay off flying training debts let alone bring food on the table.

TurboJ
18th Jul 2007, 16:16
Perhaps the integrated belief that only a jet will do stems from the fact that only a jet salary will do to pay off a loan for an integrated course?!?

True - there are other issues at work here, that is correct. However, I believe that there is more to it than that. I would fly dead chickens to the south pole to gain hours and experience. However, the students I have come into contact with somehow believe that that is by far more inferior and beneath them, than the RHS of a jet.

Charley - Agree with you entirely. Sorry about the typo - bread = breed !!!:\

veetwo
18th Jul 2007, 16:19
I am an integrated student who recently graduated and I can honestly say that when I graduated I would have taken any job that was offered to me with no complaints whatsoever. This was an opinion shared by most of my collegues who were more concerned about getting the money moving in the right direction than having to get in to the RHS of some shiny jet.

Those people who got a turboprop job were just as thrilled as those who got a jet job and, of course, there are those who don't have jobs yet. Not every integrated student walks straight in to a job. I don't know where this misconception stems from - that integrated students are so stuck up that they won't look at anything but Boeing or Airbus. Sorry, but in my experience that is utter rubbish. Some of the guys off my course and the course before are very happily settled flying the SF340, Q400 and a couple are indeed parachute dropping.

Of course, financially speaking many people choose to go to an integrated school because they believe there is a greater chance of landing an airline job straight away at the end of the course. Nothing wrong with that, it was my choice and I don't regret it nor will I be made to feel guilty about it.

mustflywillfly
18th Jul 2007, 16:26
Alright then chaps what should a wannabe with £30k a PPL and 150hours TT do? 31 years old.

Blow the cash (and take an HSBC loan) on an OAT integrated course (have passed the tests) or go down the road to BCFT at Bournemouth and do the modular all for £30k. I will be 32 when I finish training.

BTW I will happily fly anything, anywhere for any wage if it gets me on the ladder, but I am very lucky I have a girlfriend prepared to support me for a couple of years so I can work for peanuts.

What would you do?

Cheers

TurboJ
18th Jul 2007, 16:26
V2 - Its not rubbishl I have first hand experience of the attitude that has been described.

Nobody is making you feel guilty about anything, merely describing an attitude that has been observed from somebody who has openly and publicly complained about not getting a job within 6 months of graduating, which is relatively, a short space of time.

Maybe you could shed some light on where this misconception has come from then if you think it is ill founded?

TurboJ
18th Jul 2007, 16:31
Mustfly - Why do an integrated course with a PPL and 150hrs. Have you looked at an all singing all dancing modular scheme that can give you a CPL/ME-IR and MCC/JOT for a reasonable price?

To me an integrated course is gonna give you hours you already have??

bri1980
18th Jul 2007, 16:31
The 6 month 'deadline' for getting a job probably stems from the fact that many Professional Development Loans begin repayment 6 months after the course end date!

veetwo
18th Jul 2007, 16:38
TurboJ,

Perhaps I should re-phrase. The integrated students which i have come in to contact with have not sneered at any flying jobs so far as I know, nor do they think that anything is "beneath them". Most of them just have the "flying bug" and are more grateful than anything else just to get airborne, be it parachute dropping, glider towing or airline flying. Of course there is no way I can possibly speak on behalf of the entire integrated pool of pilots and I can quite happily consent to believe that there are idiots out there who think that flying a prop, for example, is beneath them. More fool them. I wouldn't limit these people purely to integrated schools though.

As I said in my previous post, I'm not sure where this perception has come from. I can make assumptions but I'd prefer not to. On a very basic level though, if you ask a newly graduated pilot whether they would rather fly a prop or a jet, most people would, I suspect, elect to fly the jet and would not be shy about admitting it. For me, that decision would be purely financial as I have a large loan to think about and the reality is that jet salaries are higher. However, I wouldn't presume to suggest I know which type of flying would give me more pleasure having not tried both.

YYZ
18th Jul 2007, 17:59
When I finished everything I set myself a personal deadline of six months, this was not for any repayment reasons but for currency and experience.

Basically, if I had no job after CV's, phone calls etc and 6 months had passed I would have to make myself look better on paper, FI Rating... The time came and on the day I started my FI course, absolutely no regrets, got a job the day I passed and have stepped forward everyday since.. Para dropping whilst doing my FI, one year of instructing, some ferry flying and finally some Recon work and = 737, FIVE years to the day (honest) from the start of my PPL!! If you don't help yourself nobody will help you..


PS... How Do Charley, Beer soon me hopes?

no sponsor
18th Jul 2007, 18:16
There's no doubt that it's tough to get a job, and each month another load of guys graduate with their ATPL-F to join the masses.

In my own experience it was bloody depressing, and I realised that sending CVs and internet applications has a very slim chance of succeeding. My break was a spot of luck, in the guise of a recommendation from my CFI at my small modular outfit. I had nothing else after 15 months of looking, but it was the only one chance I needed to get my break.

When you do get your chance, and many will not, give it everything - take nothing for granted.

My one bit of advice is to be a gentleman to everyone you meet during your training, and try and be the best student you can be.

Charley
18th Jul 2007, 18:59
It's not only about obsession with twin jets but is borne out of the fact that ferry flying, paracute dropping and instructing are all extremely low paid jobs that cannot even pay off flying training debts let alone bring food on the table.

This is a good point and I'm happy to agree. Some of the jobs people do to build hours after graduation are poorly paid and in some cases not paid at all. I've had one where all I got was beer money and my meals paid for, as well as access to some free parties. Not all of them are though, some GA jobs actually pay more than the year 1 paypoint with some regional airlines.

But beer and free parties don't pay the bills, however much the logbook keeps ticking over. I concede this much.

Nevertheless, I do have some rhetorical questions for those who have a CPL/IR and are surprised at the startling lack of job offers. This may not apply to anybody who has posted here, I'm merely thinking out loud.

Q1 - did you do your research before you started training?

If 'no', why not? Especially considering the size of the investment. On the other hand, if the research was done, then:

Q2 - did you get your assessment of the job market for 200-300hr CPL/IRs badly wrong?

If 'yes', and you did overestimate the demand for the skills of the 200-300hr CPL/IR, then ask yourself why (e.g. did you fall for the FTO marketing hype) and also ask yourself:

Q3a - what is your plan B?

That is, of course, assuming you have identified and budgeted for a plan B - if not, why no plan B? Otherwise:

Q3b - if you estimated the market correctly and anticipated the low demand for 200-300TT CPL/IR holders, then apart from me asking you why you're surprised your goose hasn't laid the golden egg, have you not budgeted to support yourself while pursuing either i) a non- or low-paid flying job, ii) an FI Rating or iii) a type rating?

If not, well.... food for thought.

Personally, I'd suggest three factors; Firstly the FTO's, for 'marketing the product' in quite the way they do when I'm sure they know that the supply of 200-300hr fATPL's exceeds the demand. Secondly the banks, for what I'd call irresponsible lending. I worked in a bank in a previous life and we had used the phrase 'borrowing beyond ones means' and we generally didn't do allow it. These days banks seem to loan potential CPL students eyewatering sums of money despite, in some cases, the loanee not having any personal wealth or equity whatsoever.

Finally, I blame some of the guys coming through the training. Perhaps not anybody here, but I have seen guys who have had overly rose-tinted specs on through training who have woefully underestimated the job market. These are the guys who have had ill-advised expectations on graduation.

Just my thoughts and opinions and clearly they're not likely to be shared by all (or even many ;) )! Hopefully any pre-training wannabes that read this might double-check their own plans are watertight.

YYZ; yes mate, and after another spell in the hot sandy place I'll be ripe for a few jars.

pipergirl
18th Jul 2007, 19:01
I only finished my training last week and the one thing I have going is that I opted to do my FI rating. It was one of the best decisions I have ever made.
I did it for a few reasons, but mainly I love flying and the challenge of teaching someone to fly would be highly rewarding as well as getting paid to do it.
I do think there are many many jobs out there, but at the moment, being mid-July, it hasn't been as fast getting into a job as it would have been in, say, February. Recruitment can take a dive in the summer months and that is to be expected.

I certainly am not going expecting to walk straight into a job or even sit on my arse while I am trying to get in somewhere. I am going to work as an instructor keep current and work on my experience as I see all of this as an apprenticeship.

I was very taken aback by some people I encountered on my IR, who pretty much thought they were going to walk straight into jet jobs and were very picky about flying turboprops or anything other than a 737.
And then they would then start specifying which bases they would accept and all this type of stuff. Absolutely Walter Mitty stuff!

If I am called for an interview in about 8 months time, I am going to be in good shape going in with instructing experience up under my belt, and having worked from now until that point instructing than those who have been sitting at home moaning on pprune about it.

When I was doing my MCC, one of the instructors who is a senior training Captain said that we were to keep ourselves busy and not to expect a living is owed to us. And I ultimately think that is a problem with a lot of people who are out there. And I am sure that this attitude is sensed by interviewers/recruiters sometimes.

Mikehotel152
18th Jul 2007, 20:03
All sobering thoughts, so thanks to you guys for putting my feet back on the ground...

FI route always appealed in the early days, partly because it seemed like common sense, but as I approached the end of my PPL I got increasingly excited about flying commercially...

I suppose it's only natural to get carried away. :cool:

Re-Heat
23rd Jul 2007, 16:59
Pity how some people quash others' aspirations, when there are those who have succeeded through a direct route.

While realistic, I question the motivation of anyone who suggests anyone should lower their horizons if the possibilty exists at all...

On the other hand, judging by the tone of the original posts, you deserved the ear-bashing you received!

mack 1
24th Jul 2007, 10:41
No one forced me nor asked me to follow this career path, I decided. Like wise with all others. I qualified at the end of 2000 with a frozen ATPL. I have had some interviews and flight test but, unfortunately no job offer. Further to this be cautious about what the airlines say to you as I have been given some real hope only to have it dashed on three occations. I have been told at the end of an unterview that I am their ideal candidate, only to receive a so sorry letter. I have passed an interview and had a flight Test on a 737 and been told by the pilot that there was no reason for anyone to have any concerns about my ability, a week later sorry you failed the flight test! I have been told that I have a job on survey work I just need to have a short check out, this never came.
HOWEVER I AM NOT BITTER I have loved all my flying and yes I do also have a FI rating this I did part time and I would recommend this to everyone. Consider this part time weekends only if I was to pay for the flying hours it would have cost me over £ 30,000 each year.
I am fortunate that I have a good job and so does my wife. I am 42 yrs and now will not be looking to become an airline pilot as I have been told I am too old. I would have flown anything for anyone I was not thinking just big jets, I would have loved to fly short sectors in a turboprop.
Do not be angry with the industry this is the way of the world in all walks of life it is who you know.
I still can't stop running to a window to look at any aircraft flying past they are great arn't they.

eghi r20
24th Jul 2007, 17:09
Very nice post Mack, From the heart i think.......:D

This is a hard industry and a licence buys you nothing.
Some make it, some dont.

Sad but true.

enjoy every flight, those who get it !!

some can only dream of a PPL :hmm:

EGHI

Andi
24th Jul 2007, 19:00
well said boys!could not have pointed it out better!:D
VITO:If you think you are unlucky please take a second to think about all those guys who finished just before 9/11 or shortly after(including me).They have been jobhunting for a long time (6years by now!!!) and if they would have taken the money to keep "current" renewing their Lic.they could have got a TR for it.If that would have made up for a job,only god knows!
Tell you a story about my last few years: I am german ,38,got initially UK FATPL ME IR MCC,convertet to JAR Lic.in March 2003 and FI rating since March 2006.
When I applied in UK they came back to me many times and said:sorry mate,correct Lic but wrong nationality!
When I applied in Germany they said:sorry mate,correct nationality but wrong (and now it goes very sad!!!) ,JAR Lic!!!! How the f....(please forgive me!) can you have the wrong JAR Lic!!!!!!!:ugh:
(protecting the market):{
But ,tell you what: I will never give up cuz I love it.
Get yourself an FI rating(if thats not too low for you!)and I garantie you a job next day!! PROMISE!!
I am working at a flight school instructing and in OPS (and cleaning cups):O
Let you go but remember:never give up!
greets Andi
Ps:it is not my intention to pick on you,just trying to point out a few thing if you feel bad again.
Wish you all the luck,honestly!:ok:

Trislander
24th Jul 2007, 23:53
I think I'm going to bite the bullet and do an FI rating. I qualified a year ago and I have had so many maybe's and broken promises from airlines and it's really got me down. The biggest reason for this is the debts I now have from training. I've got more going out every month than I've got coming in and my bank balance just keeps plummeting further into the red. I wish I had ANY flying job which would pay me enough each month so I can at least start putting something aside for my car MOT, Medical renewal, etc, but would full-time instructing pay enough? I am working in aviation at the moment with a promise of employment after a certain period, but will I be let down again?? This time could be my lucky break... OR do I go and spend money on an FI rating and risk spiralling into more debt?! Who knows, but I have to make my mind up soon and that's the hardest bit. Everyone has advice on what you should do, but everyone's advice is conflicting and ends up being of no use as a result, just stresses you out more. I know what you're going thru mate, I wish I knew what to do right now. Anyone know the average salary for a fulltime FI?? I know I'd love doing it it's just my finances that have put me off.

Tri ;)

nike
25th Jul 2007, 01:29
Wow.

This thread has truly been an eye opener for me.

I wonder if this will be the collective of those who don't make it?

If so, others could possibly be reassured by reading some of these posts and see a trend in the attitudes and efforts portrayed within. Just do the opposite and you'll probably make it.

Sure, one could have taken the "chin up mate" road but it appears that the level of self pity floating in here is beyond that worth trying to resurrect, and I just don't see a need to promote such attitudes as being ok.

The answer is (unfortunately for those seeking some magical fix) simple, at this point in time, there are still many GOOD people with appropriate experience and qualifications to employ, and so those with the aforementioned attitudes and a poxy CPL shall continue to be ignored for jobs that require more experience.

Honestly, go get a job commeserate with your experience.

Get over yourself, get out there and work your way up, get experience, get some self respect, build a career, earn a career, enjoy your career.


Or not.

timzsta
25th Jul 2007, 10:06
I know somebody who got a job on A320's because he had experience flying turboprops.
I know somebody who got a job flying 737's because she had 1000hrs Instructing.
I know somebody who got a job flying turboprops because he had experience as an FI and Air Taxi Pilot.
I know somebody who got a job as an Air Taxi pilot because he had experience in light aircraft as an FI.
It can be done, but not by moaning about the state of the industry. The only way is to "get one up".

VFE
25th Jul 2007, 11:08
Trislander,

If any of your debt's are unsecured then you can get the interest frozen and the repayments reduced on them via the Debt Councilling Service (a free charity organisation so no lousy concolidation loans req.). PM for more details - it could mean the difference between bancruptcy or a heart attack but at the very least will get the credit card companies off your back.

china
25th Jul 2007, 11:24
I passed my FI ratining in Aug 06 and got a job the very next day. I worked as a Flight Instructor for 6 months before I got offered a job flying a TP.

Being a Flight Instructor is hard work for little reward, BUT it is a stepping stone.

Keep flying and building experience it'll all come good.

Desk-pilot
25th Jul 2007, 11:56
I just wanted to say that I have been exactly the same as you guys and I know how awful it feels when you can't get a break. I finished OATS in April 2005 and with a new baby, wife and large mortgage was in dire straits financially for a few months. In the end I fell back into IT as a contractor and that gave me the means to:

a) Enjoy some of life's luxuries that we had missed for two years
b) Repay some debt
c) Keep my ratings current and hire commercial sims occasionally.

All of the above greatly improved my self esteem and general mood. I decided that I might or might not get a flying job in the end but I would keep trying. I was also aware that age (I'm now just turned 38) was against me too as was the domestic pressure of supporting a family.

After almost two years I was invited to interview with Flybe, got throught the sim and type rating and am now on the Q400 and completely loving it. I am however currently based 400 miles from wife and child so living out of B&B etc which isn't much fun!!

I hope that this proves of some comfort to those of you still waiting for a first break. Also I'd like to say that flying the Dash is a blast with plenty of hand flying, no autothrottle, some great Captains and good training. The money isn't good (yet) and the roster is pretty much max hours but it's all great experience. I was every bit as fed up as you feel though before I got a break so my advice is:

Go and get a job that puts money in your pocket so you can sort your finances out and start 'living' a bit.
Make a small number of well put together applications
Don't obsess about flying - focus on other aspects of your life that make you happy - family, friends, music, photography etc etc
Keep current.

Vito Corleone
25th Jul 2007, 13:01
It strikes me there are 3 routes to get a job in this rancid industry:
in order of preference.

1. Have a training captain as a father. I have seen many un-deserving incompetent jokers get jobs this way.

2. Buy your way to a job, either buy a) paying a huge premium to go to an integrated school who for some reason the Airlines like to recruit from direct, overlooking countless numbers of worthy modular students.
or b) paying 20 odd k for a type rating and hoping for the best.

3. Working your way up from the bottom, through instructing to air taxi to charter work to turbo prop to jets.

The airline industry is a complete reflection of Brittish capitalist society, where the rich get richer and the poor are left to rot.

For me, it will be route number 3. I was simply un-able to afford integrated training and can no way pay for a TR. And as I sit, eating value beans, living off a pittance for the next few years, working my way up this stinking industry who can blame me for feeling angry as those who go through routes number one and two earn impressive sallaries and progress onto captaincy, buying nice detached houses, taking nice holidays in the Carribbean during the time it takes me to even get a sniff at getting my foot in the door.

expedite08
25th Jul 2007, 13:14
A very down to earth thread this. A reality check and something that every wannabe should read. It should be a sticky I think. Its all very true, where are the jobs???
There are some disturbing accounts on here and I think the people who have shared that with us deserve a pat on the back for having the balls to do so. Im at the point where I am about to blow 25k away on all this flying lark. but am I??? This is the question. As much as I want to fly professionally the industry is obscene in its ways and methods.
Recruitment is not at all consistent. Examples are of billy boy with 250 hours walking strainght in a job after flight training and a person who has over 1000 hours and multi experince not getting sniffed at sometimes by the same company! Certainly for me this a severe worry.
Where I work now and in most normal industries if you have the credentials, ie qualifications, and dont make a **** of yourself by not filling in an application correctly, you usually have a chance of proving yourself in front of that employer at an interview, ie being given a chance.
The Aviation industry is so very ramdom in its recruiting methods. It is literally a lottery. This opinion has been stated on here before, but it is the most suitable anaolgy to put the situation. You buy your tickets all 30 to 60 grands worth, and hope for the best!!
The question is do I want to spend my 25 grand on lottery tickets? No one in thier right mind would do it for Camelot!! So why do it for a job?
Im still deciding. :ok:

L A James
25th Jul 2007, 15:46
If it's that much of an 'old boys network' industry then maybe the jobs are going to students from particular schools? Schools where the head of instructing is an ex Cpt from BA and still shares milk and cookies on a Friday evening with the head of BA recruitment etc....

I'm a wannabee and not as experienced in the industry as most of you guys but there are some schools that seem to have hazy employment prosepects and some that advertise guaranteed airline interviews.

I'm considering pilot training college in ireland and they boast 98% emplyment record within 2 months graduating, as well as a guaranteed airline interview.

Am I being naive in believing this?

VFE
25th Jul 2007, 17:05
Am I being naive in believing this?

In a word: yes.

expedite08
25th Jul 2007, 20:09
LA,

Possibly a bit naieve on the Guranteed interview bit, but, the rest of your post sums it up well!

TurboJ
26th Jul 2007, 10:40
Being a Flight Instructor is hard work for little reward, BUT it is a stepping stone.


Beg to differ. I thoroughly enjoy instructing and continue to do so even though my day job is from the RHS of something slightly bigger.

I know plenty of people who continue to instruct once it has given them the experience to move on.

pilotmike
26th Jul 2007, 11:52
Vito Corleone - I usually try to offer help, advice and encouragement to those who are looking for a bit of moral support, especially to those who seem to want to help themselves. However the positive posts here, including mine, clearly didn't seem to help your attitude one jot.

Taking a reality check, very few pilots would ever get a job purely on the basis of one senior person they know in the industry. It might get them an interview at best, but pilot jobs are invariably offered on merit, taking their attitude into account. So they have to prove their suitability, their flying skills, their personality, and most importantly of all, their teachability during the interview. The recruiting captain will usually ask himself "could I sit next to this person for 6 hours, with no escape?" Given your rant about the state of the industry and the mini lecture on Brittish [sic] capitalist society I think you would answer their question very clearly - NO!!!!

Why be so angry that the obvious route through instructing, smaller operators and turbo props to jets is slowly becoming clear to you? Surely your research before blowing your cash would show you that this is a very normal and sensible route. I'm sure you didn't jump straight into a Bentley turbo to do paid chauffeuring the day you passed your driving test? Why do you believe that the airlines are any different?

I flew for over 20 years, logging thousands of hours, instructing for much of it on almost anything that could fly, hang gliders, paragliders, gliders, microlights, aeroplanes and helicopters before I chose fly commercially in the airlines. It taught me a lot. I rather think that you still have an awful lot to learn before you have the remotest chance of succeeding in aviation. Why do you believe that you are owed a highly paid jet job 'straight out of school' when others have worked hard and worked their way up through the industry, learning as they go, for many years?

The weight of chips on your shoulder would make it almost impossible for you to fly. I came across many like you in my 17 years of teaching flying and each was a nightmare. Thankfully there were many more who made it a pleasure to teach, with their positive attitude, and willingness to learn. To succeed means having to learn. To learn means having to change. To change requires a positive, open mind, and to be adaptable. You show none of these essential qualities. And believe me, being teachable is the most important attribute when undertaking a type rating and line training - especially when the employer is paying!

For now, my best advice would be to save any money you have left - it could very well be wasted if spent chasing an airline job. Of all potential pilots, you are one of the prime candidates for self funding a type rating - no one else is going to do so for you with your attitude. You have just publicly advertised to every airline, every HR / recruitment department your true colours - what an own goal - I'm going red for you right now. Carry on like that, and you'll continue to score massive own goals, and you'll stay firmly earthbound.

Whereas you write of this rancid industry: it seems that it is your attitude that stinks. Nobody is owed anything in life, and never does this become clearer than in aviation, where attitude is everything.
With so much bitterness and bile spouting forth, I really doubt whether you are employable as a pilot. Certainly, for most interviewers, if you showed any hint of your hatred of the industry, you would be out of the interview room before you knew it.

Whilst you reflect on this, you might also wish to consider the impression that the application form / letter / CV makes when landing on the interviewer's desk. Given that there are normally 50 CVs to be weeded out to select the 2 to be chosen for interview, you have already made that selection process so much easier with your spelling errors, even before you start your vitriolic outburst about the industry which you arrogantly and mistakenly expect to employ you.

I wish I could be more positive for you, but you reap what you sow. Positive thinking breeds success, and bitterness breeds failure. The ball is in your court, but presently your airline career appears doomed to failure.

MrHorgy
26th Jul 2007, 12:44
If it's that much of an 'old boys network' industry then maybe the jobs are going to students from particular schools?

They are! Without reopening the whole integrated vs modular debate again which has been discussed ad nauseum, you WILL find this happens. BA is a prime example. I see nothing wrong with saying you need 85% passes in your exams, but why do you have to go to Oxford? What if I get 100% in my exams but go modular, am I less of a pilot to you?

I worry for people who have a genuine desire to fly, but (like I) cannot afford the astronomical cost of integrated training. How they are costed is beyond me, especially when you get more hours with modular flying!

If airlines operated fair recruitment schemes open to all who were qualified, and didn't setup cosy deals with flight schools then they'd be more opportunities for all. You only have the industry to blame.

*end rant*

In the meantime there's nothing wrong with taking an FI route, infact it's something i've recent given thought to. Sabena Flight Academy are doing a 2year contract out in Arizona (with free FI rating, if I read correctly) to teach people to fly, that's an opportunity i'd love to take, but i'm only part way through my ME!

boogie-nicey
26th Jul 2007, 13:33
Rock On PilotMike, you said what quite desperately needed to be said NOT about the industry but the new wave of wannabes that have brought their inconsistent and incompatable ideas with them. Both during training and pursuing that all ellusive first job.

Northern Highflyer
26th Jul 2007, 14:01
In a similar situation to Desk Pilot myself. Over 35, qualified in 2005, and went back to my old job after qualifying to help pay the bills. Found hours hard to come by recently, and not in a position to follow the FI route yet due to finances, getting time off work, etc. Same reasons why I won’t go for a TR, but I am against buying the speculative TR anyway.

I went into this eyes wide open, didn’t expect a jet job to fall into my lap, indeed a TP job was preferable for the fun and experience of it all, but alas the only interview in the last 2+ years was for a jet operator which didn’t work out. I have seen all my friends get jobs recently, some knew people “on the inside”, some worked in the aviation environment, some paid for a speculative type rating. Well done to them I say.

But do I wallow in self pity ? Not at all, I get frustrated and annoyed at times, but no self pity. With hours hard to come by, companies like flybe who want 50 hours in the last 12 months don’t want my application, as are some of the larger airlines. One TP operator recently took great pleasure in verbally tearing me off a strip for having the audacity to phone them up about jobs as they are so busy and they don’t appreciate it. This despite me being told by someone who works for them that I need to speak to the right people as CV’s are a waste of time.

I am sure there are a few on here will reply with the usual, ‘if you want it enough’ and ‘nobody owes you a living’ etc, but I have never thought the latter, and I do want the former, but not at absolutely any price. As Desk Pilot alludes to, you have to live a bit and I do have other commitments besides flying. So I won’t be giving up the day job, selling the house, living in my car (assuming I haven’t sold that as well), and living on beans for the next few months while I do an FI and/or TR course. When the opportunity presents itself to do more I will take it with both hands, but until then I will try not to upset anyone else when I phone up about their recruitment plans.

If only the shortage of pilots was as real as the magazines make it out to be in their articles.

badboy raggamuffin
26th Jul 2007, 14:05
From what I can make out wot you need to do is find ways of making your CV stand out a bit from the pile of them on a chief pilots desk.

I got my MCC about a month ago, with first time passes all round and around 250 hrs total time. I quickly realised that there are many in the same position with the same credentials and that my CV had absolutely nothing on it to distinguish it from anyone elses.
So I am trying to make small steps to distinguish it a bit. Ive been doing a bit of flying with a local aerial photographer, extra hours and "experience of flying commercially." Not a big deal, but makes a bit of a difference I think.
Applied the other day for the GAPAN jet orientation course scholarship which in the event that im lucky enough to get it will add a little bit more to my viability.
Also am on the verge of signing up for an instructors course, will add hours, improve my flying and shows a commitment to aviation. Could be good fun as well. Just a shame the pay is so ****.
I reckon that once these little things add up, eventually my CV will end up in a different pile to all the 250 hrs guys straight from flying school and I might be in with a chance of getting something im looking for. Its gonna be a pain in the arse having no money while it happens, i reckon im gonna need to get about 500 or so extra hours to move my self up a grade in the eyes of the recruiters, which will take a good year or so, but what else can I do?
I do sympathise with Vito Corleone however to a degree. I too was not prepared for the brick wall of unemployment that hit me after I finished training and I do feel a bit angry and frustrated at the situation I am in (its only been a month as well!). It is not asking much to be in with a chance of earning a decent wage from something youve worked so had at for the past year and a half is it? Sadly I can't see that happening for at least a year, life is very much gonna have to go on hold for a while. Part of the reason I feel a bit pissed off is that all through my training I was constantly being told that there were "loads of jobs out there" due to a boom in aviation and that it wouldn't take me long to get a job. Even my IR examiner said that he thought "the queue of people looking for jobs is not very long at the moment". Looks like I got the wrong end of the stick.

If I persist I WILL achieve my aims eventually, of that Im sure.

Oh yeh, to all the people who say that just sending out CVs will never get you a job, what else is there to do? Stalk a chief pilot and befriend him in a pub? Get a job as a cleaner in the Chief Pilots office? Blackmail him in some way? For those of us without a father or friend who works at an airline, sending out CVs and perhaps the odd phone call is our only means of making contact, I am intrigued to hear other ways of going about it.

VFE
26th Jul 2007, 14:09
I think if you dig deep enough you'll find that this all-hallowed pilot/instructor shortage thing is often propaganda from the flight training organistations who are now well and truly versed in the art of hoodwinking starry eyed wannabes.

It is just a shame that the vast majority of people who obtain a CPL/IR only find this out through experiencing the 'system'.

I am happy instructing (never thought it would be the role for me!) and to be honest would happily do it for the foreseeable if the work and pay was more secure. As I see it, the only thing going for the airline gig these days is the dosh and depending on your employer that is now an area of contention too. Do you really consider yourself 'employed' as an airline pilot when you pay for your TR, uniform and food? Personally, I'd feel a sense of personal disappointment if I found myself down that route. Seems to me that it's more a case of buying yer way into a dream, something which (through experience) I am no longer willing to do. However, each to their own of course.....

Aviation Jobs
26th Jul 2007, 15:13
Hi Vito,

did you try with airlines in India or China?

pilotmike
26th Jul 2007, 17:21
If only the shortage of pilots was as real as the magazines make it out to be in their articles.

Just the same as any industry, there is always a shortage of well qualified, experienced people. I'm sure that Tesco or Asda will tell you that there is a shortage of experienced financial directors, or purchasing directors, but that doesn't mean that every Tom Dick and Harry is going to get a job on the till just because they've paid to learn how to stack shelves reasonably well.

Back to aviation, airlines are desperate for, in decreasing order:

- TR Examiners
- TR Instructors
- Type Rated training captains
- Type Rated captains
- non Type Rated captains with 3,000 jet hours
- Type Rated first officers with 1,000 multi crew hours
- non Type Rated first officers with 1,000 hours jet experience
- anybody with 500 multi crew hours on anything
- anybody with 1,000 instructing hours on anything
- anybody with a CPL / IR who is not whingeing
- anybody with a CPL / IR who is still breathing but whinges a lot!

Now, where do you fit in? What qualifications do you have? How can you make yourself look attractive to your future employers? What initiative have you shown to increase your hours / experience? You may think this is rather harsh, but it is a real world out there - experience and attitude is everything.

Coming here to sound off about the mere £10k return on a £6k FI investment won't impress anybody. Going and doing it for 3 years just might.

Flaps up no lights
26th Jul 2007, 17:26
Well so many good points!

Where to start???

I am a 29 year old average guy, loved everything about flying from the age of 5/6. Was average at school 10 GCSE (C grades all bar one which was a B) . Decided against going to Uni, whether this was the right choice I will never know. Tried all the sponsorship schemes going but with no luck ( all but one wanted a degree:eek:). Took a job at 18 working offshore, saved enough cash very quickly to pay for my PPL passed it in 23 days start to finish June 1997 at Sibson near Peterborough. Spent a year working hard to save some cash to hour build in the states, West Air in Las Vegas, spent 3 months building 200hrs. Came back saved some more cash then did my ATPL theory in 2000 with Four Forces in London, second JAR course what an experience, Four forces goes Bankrupt and I lost £4000 which I had on account. ( Career Development loan which had to be paid directly to the training provider) lesson learnt DON'T pay up front. Big Big thanks to Stuart Smith who helped me to finish the written exams at no extra cost (he was a ground school instructor at Four Forces and subsequently set up CATS at cranfield after Four Forces folded). Went away licked my wounds and saved some more of that aviation friendly stuff called "money". BANG 911 occurs and I thought all my aviation aspirations were over!:eek: A year passed and I couldn't leave it alone so I did my Cpl at Tayside Perth, Di Heather-Hayes your a legend. Great flying in Scoland!!:D even in october. Tried loads of air taxi and aerial photography companies but still no joy! Away I went earnt some more cash so I could complete the IR at Bristol, ( my short list was HPG Birmingham, Bristol, Multi-flight and Raven Air, all very good). Completed in six weeks, thankyou Rowan Irvine! found a job flying Yiphee!!! Aerial photograhy based out of Exeter for the summer 2004, probably the worst summer bar this one, only gained another 130hrs, but still hours are hours. Kept applying to the air lines nothing heard back not even a no. :sad: Kept current through 2005 whilst applying for jobs built up my multi time, ever hopeful for an Air Taxi Job Still nothing. Made up a list of operators in the uk and drove to every single one- CV in hand, took me 6 days and 2000 miles From Exeter to Aberdeen. Most of them I couldn't get past the Frumpy:* receptionist, still at least I did manage to hand deliver some to the right HR person. 400hrs (inc 110 multi) though isn't regarded as enough!! It was time for a re-think, the feed back I did get from most operators was they would look at my CV once I had a lot more hours or a Type rating with hours on type. It fell to two choices FI or do what I promised myself I would never do - buy a type rating:yuk:. I don't have rich parents who can pay for everything, I had been working extremeley hard to pay for all my own flying. So what did I do? I made a very calculated decision to buy a 737 type rating and 100hrs on type with Bond Aviation Solutions. Passed the type rating last June 2006 in Six weeks start to LST, ground school was a bit hit and miss no structure, but the sim sessions were second to none (due to the fact most instructors are ex BA captains)! Sent out my CV again but as expected Type rating with no hours is next to useless so still no job, waited over a year for line training with Bond which still has not materialised ( there is a very good thread on here about Bond Aviation Solutions and peoples:mad: bad experiences so I won't go into it). I am currently in Morocco with Eagle Jet about to start 300hrs line training, fingers crossed this will lead to a job.
Has it been worth yes! would I do it again YES, what have I learnt?
Do your research first and for most.
DON'T pay up front.
Don't wait for the job to come to you, be proactive!
Don't financially stretch your self as I have I am £30+K in debt now and growing every day ( this has been mostly thanks to the incompetence at Bond Aviation though:{, I was set to complete debt free)

I will re-post once I get my break hopefully soon!

P.S I was and am willing to fly sheds and piston planes and did not set out to jump straight into a jet, it's just a case that I have never caught a break in flying - the 737 is used more than any other commercial plane for the cost of the Type rateing. My dream job is flying for FRA!! I love flying

Caracas
26th Jul 2007, 19:32
Couldn´t agree more.


2000 hrs instructing over 5 years, and now flying he A320.

There is no easy way.

dartagnan
26th Jul 2007, 20:50
even if you find a job, you wont make enough to live or have a decent life.
Most guys I have met, are not really happy about their situation.
only some few who didn't pay their position and can still afford to be on strike (airfrance pilots by exemple)

1000$ for a flight instructor
2000$ for an airline pilot.
over 2500$ for a cashier in a fast food.

don't really expect more unless you join KLM, AA, Airfrance,BA
If you are new in this business, stay away from aviation and enjoy life by making a normal job.

this industry has changed a lot these last 10 years.

VFE
26th Jul 2007, 21:51
But you dear Ronchonner, you, have not. Strangely comforting amongst the turmoil actually. :)

nike
27th Jul 2007, 01:12
Things have changed alright.

There is MORE opportunity now than 10 years ago.

And thats the bit that bites, listening to the carry on here.

fatobs
27th Jul 2007, 10:56
I must say some people’s attitude on this thread beggar’s belief. The airlines do not owe you anything

I am in the same position as most of you, I finished all my licences in May and have been sending out CV’s to all in sundry, with no joy, however unlike most “wannabes” I have substantial aviation experience. In 16 years in the Navy I flew nearly 4000 hrs in Seaking helicopters over 2000 of which were as Aircraft Captain and the last 5 years were spent flying Search And Rescue aircraft.

I do not expect to be treated any differently because of this, in fact I believe I am at a slight disadvantage due to my age, so rather than winging here is what I have done:

- Got an FI rating, it doesn’t pay much but where else are you going to get the experience.
- Applied to many GA type flying (fisheries protection, Photo recce work)
- Looked abroad
- Applied to all the TP operators
- Been realistic – I am not going to walk into a job with BA / Virgin no matter how much I wish it, maybe in 10 years but not yet.

Above all STOP WINGING, be proactive, get some B***s and grow up, there are far worse places to be.

Now as I have a wife and 2 children I am off to work “ would you like to go large???”

Parson
27th Jul 2007, 11:16
Fatobs,

The gist of your post hits the mark, but you must remember that everyone has different personal circumstances. I suspect you have the advantage of an MOD pension which will no doubt compensate for your FI salary and makes it easier to build experience. There are alot of young guys on the forum who have no career to fall back on, huge debts and no income. Am sure many of them would jump at an FI course if the numbers stack up. Sometimes they need some encouragement!

But it is 'dog eat dog' and people should enter training with their eyes wide open.

Vito Corleone
27th Jul 2007, 11:46
My travel have just announced that 100 pilots will soon be laid off. 100 typerated, experienced captains and first officers. That puts us lot 100 places further back in the long queue for a job then.
Terrorist maniacs seem intent on causing some kind of atrocity at uk airport or aircraft, it is only a matter of time before some kind of disaster happens and the industry is hit in the bollocks in a similar way to 9-11.

In short, things do not look good.

Any wannabe who is thinking of going down this road to nowhere should read "Flaps up no lights" post and then see if they still fancy it. What a mug, a bit like me. I am amazed this guy remains so positive dispite having had his life ruined by his quest to fly for a living.

A number of people have criticised my attitude on this thread, saying that with my attitude I do not deserve to get a job. Pilot Mike, you do not know me, you do not know who I am. How dare you say that I am not fit to fly for an airline.
As I said before, if I could go back two years and no get into this situation in the first place then I would. The only thing that is keeping me looking for a job is that I am not going to let the 40k I have spent go to waste. If I found a bag of 40,000 pound coins on the street tomorrow then I would be happy to live a normal life and never go near a plane again.

L A James
27th Jul 2007, 13:30
Fatobs,

I can imagine that some of the attitudes on here are a shock after your career in the RAF but remember; most of the guys in the wannabee forums are in debt, or preparing to go into debt, of around £60,000 (on top of whatever mortgage they may have) to aquire the same training that you received from HRH for free.

When they're faced with returning to previous careers and eating humble pie in order to repay their debts - saving another £5000 for an FI rating (with only a low salary to repay £600 p/m debts to look fwd to) is enough to break some people.

Vito,

"If I found a bag of 40,000 pound coins on the street tomorrow then I would be happy to live a normal life and never go near a plane again."

Based on that admission, my advice to you is to "stop the rot". If that's how you feel then it appears (I don't know you either - just making assumptions here) that your heart is no longer in the industry and maybe you should go for a higher paid regular job and begin chipping away at that debt. Once you leave career aviation you might start to feel less animosity and maybe return to pleasure flying one day.

kuchemann carrots
27th Jul 2007, 14:38
I saw this quote recently...

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not. Nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not. Unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not. The world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence, determination and hard work make the difference." -- Calvin Coolidge

Luke SkyToddler
27th Jul 2007, 17:01
Jeez Vito you still don't get it do you, about 50 people have told you the way out of your predicament, would it help if I came round your house and bashed you repeatedly in the face with a big sledgehammer that had "SHUT UP WITH THE WHINGING, GET POSITIVE AND GO INSTRUCTING" written on it in glowing 20 foot high letters of flame?

Why should you care about what happens at MYT anyway, as you have morbidly delighted in pointing out already right at the start of this thread, you ain't rich or well connected enough to have a snowball's chance in hell of getting a job there this decade. And who knows what the industry will look like in 5 or 10 years time, you're in it way too deep to start freaking out about that kind of thing now. So what are you proposing to do about it exactly, coming on here and bitching and moaning isn't exactly going to put any hours in your logbook is it now.

Your famous namesake in the movie rocked up in New York with nothing but the clothes he stood in, got a job as a delivery boy in an olive oil shop, pulled his finger out and made the connections at the very bottom end of his industry and it eventually took him about 50 years to work his way through the ranks of little mafia gofer-boy to hit man to Godfather. What do you think he would say to you, if you were a mafia wannabe who went crying to him because you wanted to join the mafia but only if you could get straight in as a big gang-boss-man and wouldn't accept anything less?

In fact, blimey, if I had any concrete overshoes I'd put them on you myself and take you and hang you over the edge of the brooklyn bridge just to motivate you into shutting up and getting on with it. See you don't know how lucky you are in this industry do you, capice?

(PS 100 MYT pilots, woop de doo, that represents about 20% of Easyjet's projected hiring for next year, it won't even make a dent in the shortfall at most other carriers. From where I sit, the industry has never looked so good for at least 20 years as it does right now so the rest of you reading, don't let this guy get you down too much.)

MrHorgy
27th Jul 2007, 17:23
Should also point out that 100 pilots is the very WORST CASE - it could be subsequently lower than that. And what makes you think every single one will be taken by an airline? Some will take the generous redundancy package and disappear into the sunset, some will go to the Middle East (where most wanabee's can't get jobs anyway) so I wouldn't worry too much.

Take a moment to think laterally about things, I shat myself when MyTravel announced the job losses but it's swings and roundabouts. Today job cuts, tomorrow massive aircraft order. Someone has to crew 235 new Dreamliners after all!

High Wing Drifter
27th Jul 2007, 19:27
I'm just a wannabe so take with pinch of salt but I think that we must be careful that a 'positive' attitude isn't just a synonym for head in the sand. MYT and 100 pilots, no big deal at there does appear to be a shortage of experienced pilots. However, it also seems to be slowly dawning on some people that the hiring reality this year has not met the expectations, in other words a sign that excess capacity in the industry is reducing.

On the opposite side, I guess that spring and summer are probably the worst times of the year for recruitment and I imagine things will pick up in earnest again September time.

On the adjacent side, it has also been apparent for the last 9 months that an SSTR goes a long long way to getting that first job. That is one expense too far for me really so I'm still looking up rather than down.

Wee Weasley Welshman
27th Jul 2007, 19:49
Well I've let this thread run a while now without interference as an interesting experiment. It has been an illuminating and informative thread, hasn't degenerated into a flame war and it is a credit to all who have contributed. Special thanks to LukeSkyToddler.

I am making this thread a sticky in the hope that many Wannabes will read it early in their career planning.

My two cents is this. Airline hiring and the wider flying jobs market is fantastic at the moment. My company, easyJet, hired 450 pilots in the last 12 months alone and similar numbers are in the pipeline for next year and the year after. In 1998 when I became the first PPRuNe Wannabe I doubt there were 450 new jobs in the entire UK airline industry. Today school are crying out for instructors, regional airlines are desperate to keep hold of pilots, low cost airlines need hundreds of new pilots every year and the flag carriers have all hired in the last 12 months and will do so again soon. IT DOESN'T GET MUCH BETTER THAN THIS. Which means it will sometime in the future get worse. Probably a lot worse. So dry your eyes Princess - you've never had it so good.

Malc
27th Jul 2007, 22:54
"Flying instruction, 6 grand outlay to get a job that will pay u what, 10 k a year?"...
Possibly true, but it also gets you:

Currency
Contacts
Great experience of flying in all sorts of conditions
Great experience of working with the public
Hours in the logbook
Potentially some great friends
Some great fun flying
Valuable experience that some employers seem to like

Why not get all the above by doing some instructing part-time, having another job that pays the bills.
(By the way, if you're being charged 6 grand for an FI rating, you're being ripped off.)

dirtysidedown
28th Jul 2007, 01:17
its the way it is, has been and always will be.

imagine, australia, 1989-1990, thousands of experienced, qualified and motivated pilots driving taxis. try and get a job with that talent pool walking the streets.

give up whenever you like, but the guys who did are still driving taxis.

you gotta be in it to win it.

pilotmike
28th Jul 2007, 11:24
Vito Corleone, you indignantly reply "Pilot Mike, you do not know me, you do not know who I am. How dare you say that I am not fit to fly for an airline."

Three reasons sprang to mind:

1 In your very own words, you hate " ...going down this road to nowhere ... this stinking industry... this rancid industry... this rediculous world of aviation ... The airline industry is a complete reflection of Brittish capitalist society... life ruined by his quest to fly for a living... to fly planes for a living it makes my blood boil... I couldn't give a toss if I never flew a plane again... never go near a plane again... "

2 You completely ignored Luke SkyToddler's excellent advice to "SHUT UP WITH THE WHINGING, GET POSITIVE AND GO INSTRUCTING", coupled to my advice that the least attractive applicant to any airline is a non-Type Rated newbie with zero experience who moans and whinges a lot.

3 You have vented your bitterness and dissed the industry publicly on this forum. This certainly isn't the number 1 quality most airline employers would put top of their list of requirements. As plenty of people here are telling you, your attitude is all wrong for becoming a pilot.

Stop kidding yourself that you are "working my way up this stinking industry". You are outside the industry, looking enviously in. And with your pitiful attitude, it will forever remain that way.

Attitude and experience count for a whole lot more than how much money you've spent. A zero time school leaver with the right attitude stands a better chance than you with your attitude at present, despite you having spent £40k on your ratings already.

You would do well to re-read the entire thread, picking up on any advice which was offered to you - all for free. Without a substantial change of attitude, I stand firmly by my prediction that your airline ambitions are dead in the water. Very soon, you might not just be eating those value beans - you could very well find yourself stacking them!

Philpaz
28th Jul 2007, 12:54
Quote "Airline hiring and the wider flying jobs market is fantastic at the moment. My company, easyJet, hired 450 pilots in the last 12 months alone"
And only 1 from OAT according to there site, i like that stat, hope for us modular boys yet.

Saying that, probably the only low hour guy they took!

MrHorgy
28th Jul 2007, 13:49
easyJet have a bond with CTC, I should think that's where the other 449 came from :}

future captain
28th Jul 2007, 20:29
450 pilots - mix of DEP and Cadets and SSTR.
In the past I have seen around 20 Oxford cadets but that was because they got put forward to GECAT (then easy)..Type rating self funded.
I'm sure if someone went from Oxford to the ctc atp scheme and then onto Easjet, Oxford would be right on the money and put it under employment stats :E

High Wing Drifter
29th Jul 2007, 08:04
And only 1 from OAT according to there siteThat'll be young Will** then I guess :rolleyes:

**The chap who wrote about his OAT adventures in Pilot magazine.

Flaperon75
29th Jul 2007, 10:35
think he went last year didn't he? along with 16 others from OAT (according to the stats on ther website)

FlyingGasMain
29th Jul 2007, 17:45
What a great thread ! Some books keep you hooked, and this thread has kept me hooked for the last 30 minutes or so.

For some strange reason it's cheered me up. I think it's knowing that there are quite a few people out there in the same boat as me ! I've only been looking for work for about 8 months, but I've managed to wangle an ops job at a bizjet outfit and I did an FI rating recently. I'm hoping to do some part-time instructing to stay current, whilst the ops job (almost) pays the bills and debts. If the ops job leads nowhere then I'll look to do some full-time instructing. Think I'll need a book on creative accounting to make the sums add up though !

Not sure what to make of Mr. Corleone. You do seem to have a certain doggedness about you, which you can hopefully put to good use. I hope your bitterness and anger is just a phase you're going through. The industry can be very fickle and does make you want to scream and shout obscenities sometimes, but hey that's life I'm afraid. I think there are some other industries out there which are just as fickle to break into.

My advice would be scream and shout for a few hours or days, then get back on the trail. Whatever you do, try to lose the bitterness, or cover it up b****y well if you get an interview !

Thanks for all the advice and drama on this thread. It's been emotional.

nike
31st Jul 2007, 01:48
FGM, good work & good luck fella!

kiwi chick
31st Jul 2007, 02:12
It strikes me there are 3 routes to get a job in this rancid industry:
in order of preference.

1. Have a training captain as a father. I have seen many un-deserving incompetent jokers get jobs this way.

2. Buy your way to a job, either buy a) paying a huge premium to go to an integrated school who for some reason the Airlines like to recruit from direct, overlooking countless numbers of worthy modular students.
or b) paying 20 odd k for a type rating and hoping for the best.

3. Working your way up from the bottom, through instructing to air taxi to charter work to turbo prop to jets.

Why are you flying? :*:*:* Because you love being in the air and all it entails, the freedom, the fun, the absolute love?

Or because you want to sit in a bar with gold bars on your shoulders and tell all the girls you're an Airline Pilot?

pablo2973
31st Jul 2007, 16:07
Maybe it does not help much what I´m going to say , but if you have completed your training in UK under UK standards ,you have THE BEST licence you can get in the world and everyone knows that , although not much experience ...., I´m sure time is going to change very very soon and you´ll be call for an interview ,hopefully in UK.
I´m spanish and have spent aprox 120.000 Euros in training ,ATR TR and believe it or not i have NO JOB , but my time I know will come very soon , or by the way I´m 36 yo and 528 h tt, keep tyrying and I hope you´ll be lucky.
what you have seen ,people getting jobs because of conections if the same all over the world .
I wish you all the best .

click
31st Jul 2007, 16:32
you have THE BEST licence you can get in the world and everyone knows that
Not everyone...I didn't:E

INSIDEVIEW
31st Jul 2007, 17:59
Best Licence in the world ..LOL:}

Well lets say ,a high Standard ..but thats it ..Period

Just my Peanuts...

kiwi chick
31st Jul 2007, 23:17
you have THE BEST licence you can get in the world and everyone knows that

I never knew that either? :uhoh: Maybe i should just hang up my headset now. Or move to England and get some proper training? :ugh:

wobble2plank
1st Aug 2007, 08:05
Wow, where do I get one of those 'best licences'?

All I got for my £xxxx was some crappy green folder with some dodgy bits of paper in it. :(

(Still, it least it hasn't got sheep tracks on it........yet :E )

:ok:

Back on to thread:

Vito,

Sorry but you come across to me as a spoilt little school brat who has spent his money and now demands that some company with big shiny aeroplanes gives you one to play with.

You are at the bottom of the pile. It will get there eventually but will whisk by you with an attitude like that. This game is about skill, experience and luck and it is a torrid mix of the three. Timing is also thrown in there. If you didn't realise this when you started then you were either very naive or badly briefed.

The biggest problem that interviewer have with low houred pilots is getting them to open up properly in the interview to enable the interviewer to assess the candiate. It is difficult and it is a nerve wracking environment but all that pulls you along in that scenario is your personality, drive and determination. You don't have thousands of hours to draw experiences from to let the interviewer know how you handled this situation and that so give him, and yourself a break and lighten up.

Time will tell but, from the way you post here, I feel you are in the wrong line of work and have made a very expensive mistake. Please don't come and sit in my cockpit, I am allowed to moan about the state of the world, but then I've been flying in it for many years and I need the younger guys to point out that it really isn't that bad! :p

Cheers

:ok:

Blackshift
1st Aug 2007, 09:13
Vito,

Although I agree with much of what you have to say about the industry, I cannot really find quite as much sympathy with regard to your own predicament.

The woe-is-me/sackloth-and-ashes fatalism you have exhibited would make even the arch-pessimist Schopenhauer look like a starry-eyed optimist and will naturally draw ridicule in a forum populated by aspiring and accomplished professional aviators, many of whom justifiably value any ability they have to cope with adversity as being their most important qualification.

Do yourself a favour and take on board the advice of LukeSkyToddler and pilotmike if you really want to be an airline pilot - although I suspect that your post may be evidence of an ongoing Damascine convertion to the shocking realisation that not everyone in the RHS of an airliner is necessarily the best person to be there, and that you are therefore perhaps not competing on an entirely level playing field. There are many others within the industry, not least occupying the LHS who might have reason to agree with this. However, contrast your own bitter complaints with the measured words of VFE:-
As I see it, the only thing going for the airline gig these days is the dosh and depending on your employer that is now an area of contention too. Do you really consider yourself 'employed' as an airline pilot when you pay for your TR, uniform and food? Personally, I'd feel a sense of personal disappointment if I found myself down that route. Seems to me that it's more a case of buying yer way into a dream, something which (through experience) I am no longer willing to do. However, each to their own of course.....
...not one iota of self-pity here: in fact quite the opposite.

That said, we all have our weaker moments, and a cry for help is a natural human response when all else has failed, as the grim evidence of cockpit voice recorders often attest, but usually only in the final few seconds after all else has indeed failed - as opposed to just after things start going wrong and accompanied by impotent rage directed towards alleged failings of the operator, manufacturer, engineers, ATC or whatever.

The current situation is probably such that anyone unchallenged by glaring defincies in terms of motor co-ordination, analytical intelligence and a basic grounding in social skills can probably get "the gig" somewhere or other without too much difficulty if they have bottomless pockets, or connections, or preferably both - although responsible operators would presumably prefer to see some additional evidence of above average emotional stability from their CV and not just from a multiple choice questionaire which any half-wit can be drilled to pass.

Also,do not underestimate the importance of kiwi chick's question:-
Why are you flying? Because you love being in the air and all it entails, the freedom, the fun, the absolute love?
Or because you want to sit in a bar with gold bars on your shoulders and tell all the girls you're an Airline Pilot?
To the extent that the second answer appeals to you more than the first, you are simply hoist by your own petard on account of being priced out of the gold bar market - although, as Robert Burns once said...

The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The man's the gold, for a' that.

Many integrated-route FO's have shockingly little time in command outside of the little they had during a carefully structured and monitored training environment, so it is therefore little wonder that the airlines are short of pilots suitable to command their aircraft, and no pilot worth his salt would assume that anyone who happens to fly a bigger aeroplane is therefore a better pilot - although they may (or may not) be richer.

If you seriously object to the spiv culture in the airline job market, or anywhere else for that matter, and would like to see a change the way things are done, then good for you - but think carefully why, and only then how. There's no point about getting all political about the rules just because you happen to be losing in a game you'd be happy enough with if you'd been dealt a better hand.

In the meantime, straighten up and fly right... and good luck!

PosClimb
1st Aug 2007, 17:47
Vito,

George Orwell, Jr., above me made some pretty double plus good points :D

The aviation industry is driven more by emotion and irrationalism and ego than anything else. Put that together with the fact that basically anyone with a heartbeat and enough money can become a pilot, and you can see how things can get funny real quick.

Unless you have the political clout needed to change the system, there is no point getting upset about it.

Just be glad you didn't finish your training shortly before 9-11 when the industry started to tank.... Then you'd really have something to complain about.

spoolup
1st Aug 2007, 18:17
i understand the frustration in this department.
i just finished my conversions a few weeks ago and am waiting for the call.
i'm sitting with 3500TT and 1000 multi crew and nowhere to go.
all i have to say to the new kids is, be patient, we have chosen one of the strange industries to work in.
being on this side we don't really know what goes on in HR departments.
sometimes it's a matter of being at the right place at the right time, sometimes it's a matter of waiting for the right time.
it's easy to get carried away thinking that the day you are done with training you'll get a job. unfortunately this is not the case.
patience is the name of the game...
sorry for blabbing. that's my 2p worth

Beaver diver
1st Aug 2007, 19:02
1. You know the people, do them the favours and they will do the favours for you
2. Having a license means jackshaite, having an experience means tonnes...
3. Lion doesnt ask for his lunch, he gets out and get it!
4. ??????
5. Most of the people who make it, had to do some hard work for it, so if you think you will make it like this: sorry, the best spots are already taken. You have to go for it and play the game, everyone does it.

Mr Angry from Purley
1st Aug 2007, 19:30
EAT BRU are advertising for abintio 757 F/O's, go to the DPWN web site and select Belguim good luck:\

kiwi chick
1st Aug 2007, 21:50
no pilot worth his salt would assume that anyone who happens to fly a bigger aeroplane is therefore a better pilot - although they may (or may not) be richer.

Crikey, Blackshift I never thought I'd see that in black and white - and I think you're fantastic for being the one to do it. :D

From one who flies a teeny weeny aeroplane - and loves it. XX

gibbo2
1st Aug 2007, 23:14
Fascinating thread! I'm 38, chartered accountant, 100 hrs on microlights, and seriously thinking of chucking life savings (and then some) at the modular lottery - or maybe not after reading this. I just fell I wish I'd gone for it earlier, and if I don't have an effing good crack at it now it will def be too late I'll regret it the rest of my life.

Realistically I'll be 40 by the time I get to fATPL. Given Vito's and other experiences here, am I completely deluded that there's but the slimmest chance of landing a decently paid aviation job at that age? I have the wife/kids/mortgage constraint and know I am gambling with their future to some extent.

I've just started doing my research in the last week, but seems if there are that many good quality, more experienced candidates out there really struggling then maybe I've swallowed the sales pitch from OAT, Bristol and the like. If there's some more light/end/tunnel stories for the older aspirant, I'd be truly grateful to hear them to balance some of this doom and gloom!

kiwi chick
1st Aug 2007, 23:38
chance of landing a decently paid aviation job at that age?

Watch it Gibbo2... you're not that far ahead of me :E :E :E

sobs

Flare-Idle
1st Aug 2007, 23:46
David

My short story: started at age 34 with PPL and finished with 36 CPL,Multi,IR, fATPL. Left my well paved engineering careerbehind and was hired in 2001 as an F/O on the E145 shortly before 9/11. Was lucky enough to stay employed during the fallout years of 9/11. After a short time on the AVRO RJ100, I am now flying as SF/O on the Airbus with easyJet. It was definitely the best decision to go for that flying job. Age can be an issue but I am sure if you have the right stuff and attitude, you will find that satisfying flying job sooner or later.

Good luck:ok:

PosClimb
2nd Aug 2007, 01:18
David,

I'd be more concerned about where the industry will be in 2 years' time.

No one knows. It's crapshoot, really.

If it's like it is now and you're willing to buy your way in, you got a good chance.

If the industry craps out again, there's a good chance you'll get nothing.

It's a roll of the dice.

L A James
2nd Aug 2007, 11:56
Mr Horgy,

Sorry for the late reply but I'm referring back to your post of 26th July in this rather emotional thread.

As you are based in Leeds... discussed going modular and state that you're part way through your ME training, could I put 2 and 2 together and assume that you're training at Multiflight?

If you are, how would you rate them? I've done a search and visited them etc. but it would be good to hear from a current student. If you're training somewhere else, oh well, thanks anyway!

MrHorgy
2nd Aug 2007, 11:59
L A,

No sorry, i'm actually at Stapleford Flight Centre, a training organisation i can thoroughly recommend.

I did about 10 hours of PPL at Multiflight though while I was at university, and it seemed fairly well run. Maybe a touch on the business side of things, but I imagine if you were a 'known quantity' (unlike me trying to squeeze stuff in here and there) you might fare better. Staff seem friendly.

Make sure you budget for landing fees at Leeds though, they can get quite pricey. Also, as they now only work with one runway it got a little congested at times for VFR being held while Mr Boeing flew in. At the end of the day though a few minutes here and there didn't bother me as i'd have to hour build anyway.

gibbo2
2nd Aug 2007, 22:01
Many thanks for the input chaps

mack 1
3rd Aug 2007, 13:25
This is for GIGGO 2.
I have a post from 24th July so I will not repeat what I said other than I am proud of what I have achived and will always be pleased with what I have. I must point out that with loss of earnings I have spent over £60, 000. so keep this in mind.
During my years looking for employment I made a number of good contaccts who I would be able to have an honest conversation with. A good number of them (training captains HR managers) pointed out tht there was a definate line at 40 years old in relation to training. Statisticaly it would take a person a week longer to train, this would cost them when they could just take on a younger person.
I did point out that I was older married with a family and would stay with whoever employed me as I would not wish to keep chasing round the country for jobs and upsetting my stable family. Should they take on a younger person they may only stay for a couple of years and then move on to larger aircraft, this would mean more training. I would have saved this continous future expense by progressing within (I must point out that I was focused on turboprops). A good an honest argument. their response was that is a future budget, they were concerned about todays.
I too would even in my position of not continuing would have hated myself for not trying.
DO IT don't lie on your death bed thinking I wish I had tried However, FI is a must!

L A James
7th Aug 2007, 08:05
Thanks for your feedback Mr. Horgy, thanks also for the warning r.e. landing fees; that's been mentioned a couple of times about Multi.

Troy McClure
9th Aug 2007, 16:51
Watch the weather at Leeds though. Great for an IR, but expect a CPL to take you a while....

Multiflight I found to be excellent.

SU27
9th Aug 2007, 21:15
Thanks for posting that. The only good post on here!

Dreamshiner
10th Aug 2007, 01:45
Just my two cents worth for what its worth, probably will stir the pot up a bit, however why we embrace living in a democracy, free speech and all that jazz.

We do an aspirational job, we gain social kudos (one person reading this deny someone hasn't raised an eyebrow when you reply to the 'so what do you do?' question, pays well (eventually) and a host of other little ticks in the Pro's column. As a result a little bit of dreamy romanticism is attached to it.

Gone are the days where the great unwashed are selected by airlines, given a nice shiny little uniform and guaranteed a job after completing their in-house training scheme. For the reasons above, so many wish to follow in the footsteps of the Wright Bros. Now we plebs are expected to fund our own training up front, twas the days when a mere CPL/IR were enough, now an MCC is a definite and self sponsoring a type rating should at least be pondered (a debate for another thread me thinks).

As a result we need to be pragmatic, focused and driven more so than if everything was laid on a plate.

Certain things in aviation that piss me off that I've encountered:

The amount of people in the UK who turn up their nose with hearty disdain for those who did their initial training in the US. My response to that, its aviation, not an exclusive golf club, a 152 stalls at exactly at the same IAS over Florida as it does over somewhere ending in 'shire'. Wind your neck in!

Those who moan about their circumstances, yes we are all subject to bad luck, however the human brain tends to remember (especially if there is an apparent pattern) the hiccups over the successes. in the past 10 years especially with the advent of widespread use of the web there is no excuse for doing your homework as there is a host of sources of info. I got into this and to be honest its not presently ideal, however I knew this may be the case on day 1, so I ultimately am optimistic or I'd go mental.

I'm dismayed at how too many people further up the food chain pontificate, maybe because a lot of those in the position to be doing so on this site qualified around the worst time for aviation in modern times and had it considerably harder, guess what, its not so rough now, so don't hit us with 'you haven't lived', similar to pensioners who did national service and tell you how easy we young 'uns have it now.

I know of a former CTC cadet slagging off those who did self sponsored type ratings as abhorrent. The only difference being he was promised his job on day one providing no hiccups and did all his training with one provider. Tiresome to say the least and 'do as I say, not as I do'.

If you haven't served a spell at a FI you a) know nothing, b) you are a shortcut meister unwilling to serve an apprenticeship you filthy schwein. Different horses for different courses, Jesus wept. Some people are predisposed for flying a big jet, some don't, some get there because its expected, to wince at the thought of a 250 pilot getting the nod screams of sour grapes.

6k outlay to get 10k back, UK weather, 152 in a circuit its all about reaching antiquated thresholds that says nothing about your professionalism or aptitude or personality to work in an intense 2 person environment. It negates that some personalities make great instructors and some woeful. Personally, no thanks, I'd rather put my cash towards a TR. Does that make me evil, inherently lazy, conniving? To some members of PPRuNe, yes, worse than a 40 virgin seeking jihadi. That position taken by some maybe needs a pitch of salt and a big hug.

If you don't get all starry eyed talking about aviation and why you got into it you shouldn't be anywhere near a plane. Some people do it because when you do have your foot in the door it offers a decent living that suits them and their circumstances well. Some pilots are grafters, not naturally gifted, I even know some who still get air sick but do it because it beats an office full of menopausal women and politics bull****.

Pilots sharpening the knife for other pilots, perhaps the anonymity of the Internet (exceptions of the moderators who know exactly who everyone is). However, we are the worlds worst back seat drivers, critics and ****ting on those below us. I've done it, however recognised it early and made a conscious effort to change. How many of us will admit to being a passenger looking tentatively at a mate on short finals as the stall warning poops for the fist time, fear willing them to mention to inch the nose forward, squeeze in a little throttle to ease the decent, wishing they set the mixture to full rich and turned the landing lights on. Who hasn't moved a hand up to within a half inch of the column?

To be honest, its all about recognising yourself, what your motivations are, you own self discipline and taking the route that serves you best. If that is 0 to hero in 4 months, ATPL's in 4, TR in 2 and line training within the year then so be it.

Finally, there is no excuse for ignorance.

Cue the posts, littered with quotes of what I've written, pedantically cross examined. It's not about changing opinions, just respecting some others may see things differently.

Always Moving
10th Aug 2007, 03:42
I hear you and I had felt your pain, I am just not as much of a whiner.
Send your CV to Ivan www.jtfa.cn/en
That ain't no shiny 747 but..... an option

Vito Corleone
10th Aug 2007, 11:56
Anyone else noticed the Transair advert that has been appearing recently on PPRUNE. "Wanted, FATPL holder to work in Transair shop..."

says it all really.

boogie-nicey
10th Aug 2007, 12:14
I think transair have had that policy for a number of years. You'd obviously need to have the knowledge about the products in order to sell them. Nothing new there.

pilotmike
10th Aug 2007, 13:59
So Vito Corleone, have you dusted off your CV then?

Who knows what good contacts you'd make there, and what airline job they might lead to.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that....

Once, 2 shoe salesmen were parachuted onto a remote island with 50 pairs of shoes to sell to the locals. On landing, they immediately realised that none of the inhabitants wore shoes. Each of them made an urgent phone call back to the boss after the first day.

The first call went "Send an aircraft to get me off this hellish island - nobody wears shoes here!"

The other call went "This is brilliant, get me loads more shoes parachuted in ASAP - nobody wears shoes here!"

boogie-nicey
10th Aug 2007, 14:59
love it PilotMike, how very true ... ;)

haughtney1
10th Aug 2007, 15:28
Vito, do yourself a favour and listen to some of the SUPERB advice that is being offered.
The truth sometimes isn't what you want to hear...but there are plenty who have had it tougher than you.
Perhaps you were one of those unfortunate kids at school who actually believed that "taking part" was the object of sport, or worse, you were always the last to get picked.
Why not prove something to yourself, and show some of the determination you MUST have possessed to pass your exams and flight tests?
Hell, I had about 20 jobs before I got my first full time flying job..ranging from digging post holes to delivering pamphlets.
You need to pull your head outta your arse buddy.

Deano777
10th Aug 2007, 16:34
Well I would gather with Vito's reply that he is totally ignorant, he hasn't even acknowledged any post at all over the last couple of pages or so, to me this is an admission that he is being a spoilt brat, heed the good advice given here Vito, I sometimes wonder why people bother to help someone who isn't prepared to help himself

timzsta
12th Aug 2007, 07:31
Who is going to the BALPA Employment Opportunities Conference at Heathrow in October?
The following airlines will be there:
Easyjet, BA, bmi baby, bmi regional, Virgin, flybe, Thomas Cook, thomsonfly, First Choice, XL airways, GB Airways, BA Cityflyer, Jet2, China Airlines, Emirates, Eastern Airways, Flightline, Air Contractors, Dragonair and Parc Aviation.

If your looking for a first job I reckon you want to be speaking to the likes of :

flybe, BA Cityflyer, bmi regional, Eastern Airways, Flightline, Air Contractors.

bjobrien
12th Aug 2007, 09:15
Ever thought about going overseas for work or trying the defence forces??

Lack of work opportunities is the greatest frustration for a newly trained pilot, keep at it, it's worth it once you get there. Good luck .

MrHorgy
12th Aug 2007, 11:47
I'm going to the conference, although the webpage was screwed when I paid and only some cutting around and creating my own payment page let me pay in full - so at the moment i'm probably the only one attending! All the more jobs for me :}

On a serious note, what do you do there? I assume there is presentations and everything, but do you just wander round with CV's in hand and dish them out to the MD's?

claydon82
12th Aug 2007, 15:39
Vito, where did you do your training and have yuo found a job now?

Mach086
14th Aug 2007, 09:35
I have read this forum with intrigue and interest. Yes Vito sounded very pessimistic. And of course, you have all given advice (sending C.V's isnt enough, go to the airline yourself, hand a cv in person, look at other opportunities etc) but he has mentioned that he has done this anyway.

So the other advice you have been telling him is "stay positive", "mental positive thinking", "good attititude" etc. Well, yeah, brilliant. Sounds great in a corporate environment. Straight out of the mouth of David Brent.

But does being positive get you a job at BA? you could have 100% passes in every exam, be the best pilot. But if you fail those psycometric exams, or you can't use a piece of string, a piece of wood, and a paperclip to get over from A to B (team building excersises at airline selection in case you had no idea what i was on about) , then you are not going to get hired.

I mean it is a tough world. Ad I think you guys are being a little too hard on Vito.

The only advice that I think is 100% accurate is when you have said "you should have done research and known the industry before you commited even a penny to your flight training. No job is guranteed".

I feel sorry for this guy. let him have his moan. he spent all that money and he aint as lucky as you lot. Am I'm sure he isn't the only one. How many thousands of ATPL piltos have passed through Oxford, CTC, Bond etc and are not even in the LHS of a 737 for Ryan air?

portsharbourflyer
14th Aug 2007, 10:23
Timzta,
Don't get too excited about the BALPA employment conference, been there three years in a row and and in truth it is of limited value.
Eastern Airlines always say that they will attend but are never there. Air Contractors only look at candidates with ATR ratings they will accept a rating with no hours on type but do not offer an in "house SSTR" agreement; essentially funding the ATR 42 rating at Skyblue is the way into Air Contractors.
Flybe have an online application process so no longer accept applications on the day.
Have you done your research? BA Citiflyer, did that not become BA Connect, and in turn was taken over by Flybe.
What became evident last year was an increasing amount of airlines were taking low hour candidates through CTC, or wanted 500 hours time on type) there was no imbetween criteria for instructors with 700 to 1000 hours.
There is normally only one or two airlines accepting applications on the day from non-airline experienced / low houred pilots as a consequence you will queue for about 2 hours to hand in a CV. Though one has to congratulate the representative from BMI last year who did make the effort to speak to every single candidate and was there until 6.30 in the evening.

Marvin The Android
16th Aug 2007, 01:06
Hi Vito - Hope you find the job you want and best of luck mate.

I am a 'wannabe' and this thread has really put me off flying. I recently graduated in Physics & have always wanted to fly, and have done a little flying (6 hours with CCF at school.)

So i really need some advice. First up I have applied to PTC Ireland & also CTC both of which iv reached the phase 2 part of testing.

I personally see these companies as roughly equivalent, although posts on here make me feel as if CTC maybe a better choice if im ever privalidged enough to have that choice. - CTC VS PTC??

Are intergrated courses generally a 'safer option'?

I already have alot of student debt and really really need some good advice.

Thanks for your time guys

pressed_on
16th Aug 2007, 14:27
Im pretty sure you can do training with CTC in New Zealand, Hamilton. they use those DA4042`s. Cheap, and you get to live in the best country in the world!:}

davey147
16th Aug 2007, 18:04
I personally see these companies as roughly equivalent, although posts on here make me feel as if CTC maybe a better choice if im ever privalidged enough to have that choice. - CTC VS PTC??

PTC and CTC have nothing alike, PTC is a small flight school that charges a lot to get your ratings, CTC is probably more comparable to Oxford or FlightSafety.

Look into it a little more, PTC will accept you if you have the cash available to spend, CTC or Oxford will not.

Marvin The Android
17th Aug 2007, 01:11
Does that mean that in terms of getting a job going throught ctc / oxford would guarentee me or have me better placed to get a job as an airlines pilot over PTC? Would i be limited to getting jobs in Ireland if I train in Ireland?

thanks again for any suggestion advice

Fail passive
17th Aug 2007, 01:54
I totally agree with Vito. No matter how good a pilot you maybe, it all comes down to who you know...and no longer what you know. I could be the worse pilot out but as long as i know someone, well...that RHS on the jet is mine. Now for all those who say "I fly for the love of it...freedom of the sky and all that crap!!!"...well...i did as well but then reality hit me and realised that at some point in life, this has to become a job and not a hobby and therefore money does play a part as well. Good for those who have money in the banks, or parents being their supplier of cash, but for some of us, flying has to pay the bills. Mind you, I am extremely passionate about flying, more so then most pilots i have come across. However, seems like passion and skills are not what most employers are looking for nowadays...its whether or not you know someone in the airline you are applying to!!!

I know guys who cant even fly a twin piston properly, however, once they get that "X" amount of hours, they move into the RHS on a jet all because their father or some other relative is in the airline. And these guys are earning more than what a good pilot earns in GA all because the poor sod (GA pilot) just did not have someone to help him get an interview with the major airline. And ofcourse, the poor GA pilot has to put up with the jet pilot who now thinks he is the better pilot because he is on the jet!!!

Some of you here might have had the easy run, thats why you might think that some of us whinge alot and not too sure what the hell we are on about.

Oh..and at the end of the day, it does come down to the money. Those of you already earning decent money will ofcourse disagree with me but thats normal...easier for you to say "its not all about the money" because you already earn it!!

kiwi chick
17th Aug 2007, 02:52
Now for all those who say "I fly for the love of it...freedom of the sky and all that crap!!!"...well...i did as well but then reality hit me and realised that at some point in life, this has to become a job and not a hobby

flying has to pay the bills. Mind you, I am extremely passionate about flying, more so then most pilots i have come across.

Anyone else see the irony here? :oh:

K.C aka "...all that crap" poster

Fail passive
17th Aug 2007, 03:30
KC...I see you still having difficulty realising that flying for some is a job. Why cant one person be passionate about his/her job and yet request a decent pay at the end of the day for that job. Maybe if everyone would stop thinking like you ie. "you should fly for the love of it etc etc and not money", we wouldnt be treated like bunch of low class citizens who deserve nothing more than the minimum wage in GA...actually, less than the minimum wage set out by most countries.

Every employer knows they will get someone who will work for nothing because "he/she loves flying"!!!

And we wonder why the GA industry is such..no ones fault but ours.

kiwi chick
17th Aug 2007, 03:38
Thanks for that.

I have never once said that anyone should fly for peanuts, and I couldn't agree more with your comment we wouldnt be treated like bunch of low class citizens who deserve nothing more than the minimum wage in GA...actually, less than the minimum wage set out by most countries.

I get paid to fly, and I get paid well. And I love it. And the day i stop loving flying is the day I stop, and get another job paying just as much money.

I think you may have missed my point... and I'm sorry for you. :ok:


:confused: just an aferthougt... would you want a vet working on your cat who didn't like animals...? ;)

Fail passive
17th Aug 2007, 05:42
I get paid to fly, and I get paid well. And I love it. And the day i stop loving flying is the day I stop, and get another job paying just as much money.
Well..you must not be earning much if you think you can leave aviation at any time and get any other job straight away with as much money!!
Anyway, as I stated before, I do love flying, but sometimes the industry is such that the passion is slowly drained out of you. Seems like the less passionate ones get further in this industry by knowing someone within the airlines. OK.. i am repeating myself here so its time for me to leave this thread.
Didnt mean to be harsh on you KC
:ok:

fireflybob
17th Aug 2007, 10:02
So the other advice you have been telling him is "stay positive", "mental positive thinking", "good attititude" etc. Well, yeah, brilliant. Sounds great in a corporate environment. Straight out of the mouth of David Brent.

But does being positive get you a job at BA? you could have 100% passes in every exam, be the best pilot. But if you fail those psycometric exams, or you can't use a piece of string, a piece of wood, and a paperclip to get over from A to B (team building excersises at airline selection in case you had no idea what i was on about) , then you are not going to get hired.


What I say is that positive thinking won't enable you to do everything but it will enable you to do everything better than negative thinking will!

Positive thinking means seeing things as they are but never worse than they are. Negative thinking is saying "I have this situation but there is nothing I can do about it"

It can be challenging to keep on going when you get lots of rejection but it's not what happens to you but how you handle what happens to you. I speak as one who is very experienced in aviation who tooks 3 years to get back into the industry (and went to work on the railway system as a signaller believe it or not) after a break due to a family bereavement. Strange to say it but I now long back on all this as a big learning experience and I now value what I have more than ever!

Recently I went to see Michael Losier talk on the "Law of Attraction". If you do a Google search you are bound to find him. The arguement is that if you are "underperforming" in any area of your life this is because of what you are focussing on and therefore attracting what you dont want.

Good luck to everyone who is looking for that first job in aviation!

spitfire_007
19th Aug 2007, 20:11
Congratulations, loop. Hope it works out for you.

LoopGuru
20th Aug 2007, 08:21
Thank you Spitfire.

Strobe2000
20th Aug 2007, 09:20
I work at a professional training organisation and we have approx 14 vacancies for Instructors. We are seeking full time Bombardier Global Express Instructors and Falcon 900EX EASy / 2000EX EASy and 7X Instructors. Preference will be given to type rated individuals but training will be provided if necessary. You must have a minimum of 1500 flying hours on multi-pilot aircraft and hold, or have held, an ICAO professional licence.

Please let me know if you are interested and I will provide further details.
Best Wishes

portsharbourflyer
20th Aug 2007, 11:57
Strobe, this forum and this thread is for those seeking the first commercial position, hence this is not the place to be posting such an advert.

npasque
28th Aug 2007, 07:54
you honestly cannot expect to land a job rhs in a jet straight out of flight school, no matter how badly you want it. Unfortunately things just don't work that way. I would suggest that you be happy with what you are offered, or maybe lower your standards a bit. In other countries, and I will use mine as an example, we are expected to fly 207's and 210's for years on end, then when we have 1000TT and 200hrs multi we MIGHT just be considered for rhs on a saab 340. I know that some of you in the UK and US score these types of jobs right out of training so consider yourselves damn lucky. I have 400TT and a long way to go, but GA flying is fun and who wouldn't want to fly a **** box 207 in remote western australia?? :}

Always Moving
28th Aug 2007, 07:59
Strobs, why didn't you ask for 8000h on type too

try here they need new people

http://www.jtfa.cn/en/gzjh.asp

Walker Texas Ranger
5th Sep 2007, 00:15
I have worked for 4 companies. One company I never even applied to and was asked to interview and was hired on the spot. The other 3, I received a call the same day I applied (all within 2 hrs). My new company called me 1 hr after I applied and hired me over the phone on that first call. BIG MONEY to fly a CRJ tax free as an FO. How could I turn that down.

I think you guys just need me to prepare and send your resumes. I guess I have the majic touch.

dartagnan
5th Sep 2007, 21:45
they are talking about jobs for EU citizen...

kiwi chick
5th Sep 2007, 22:23
I think you guys just need me to prepare and send your resumes. I guess I have the majic touch.

I think I just did a little sick in my mouth :oh:

Did you spell as impressively on your CV as well?

MrHorgy
5th Sep 2007, 22:38
Hmm.. Before you jump on the guy, I'd point out he's in the States, where the commuter/regional market is booming. Also, Majic is an acceptable spelling in some regions.

Congratulations to you sir! :ok:

kiwi chick
5th Sep 2007, 22:48
Yes, I have no doubt AT ALL the business is booming. He got four job offers.

;)

Always Moving
6th Sep 2007, 01:12
Hey with that name you make them a proposition they can refuse!

http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/

We are just mere earthlings.

supramkiv
11th Sep 2007, 01:03
Hi, sorry haven't read the whole thread but thought I'd share my experiences, I finished my MCC early June and start RHS on a jet next month.

I have 270hrs, i'm 29, I have a spanish IR and I trained multi stop modular, I have zero contacts in the industry and I've had an overall positive response from many companies and now a job within 3 months of finishing my training.

I'm by no means an exceptional candidate, but found a good well written cv and a nicely worded letter got me a reply most of the time.

There probably is an element of luck in there, but don't believe that contacts are the only way a low hour pilot will get his first opportunity, i've had that fed down my throat for the last two years and personally seen very little truth in it.

Just want to wish everyone the best of luck, you will get that job!

inner
11th Sep 2007, 11:03
I'm following this thread for a while and have some few thoughts. It is correct that persistance is important, however.... at a certain point it stops. I'm also looking for a job for almost 3 years. Ok i had some interviews and sim rides but there was always 'something' why i did not make it. I was prepared to do anything. I don't care if it is TP or not. I just want to fly. Now i really believed that because of my persistance i would find something, but so far..."NO". I also agree with the fact that "self-pitty" does not help. But at a point it stops. What can one do? He/She explored everything but without any luck.

Now for me, i decided to go for my type at gcat. I'm practising for the assesment. Believe me, paying for my type was the last thing i wanted to do but there are no other options left.

Always Moving
12th Sep 2007, 00:48
That is a very BAD excuse INNER!

Every time a pilot pays for a TR... is the airlines sticking it up to all of us and in doing so the pilot sticking it up to us too.

IF now that the Companies need pilots, is a pilot market,the youngens are buying TR so they can skip straight to the airline (they are buying themselves a job) when this bubble bust, is a company market, we will see what the companies are going to pull..... Minimum wage for FO? with TR and why not you pay for everything, no per dimes... we will see. But I do not want to hear any of the "I buy myself a TR" people to complaint about it......

PM me and I get you a job, it might not the a 747 but a job!

inner
12th Sep 2007, 08:08
hello,

Thx for your reply.

You have to admit: persistance has a limit. If you are looking for almost 3 years for a job, without any result, then at some point you have to do something. Where i live there are not much possiblities. I considered freelance work (taxi), aerial work but i always got a 'no' answer. The only thing i now do is flight seeing tours for a small company, unpaid.

I'm 31y old and i want to move on with my life. I think that a typerating at gcat will increase my chances on the job market. This company has a very good reputation and a lot of students got afterwards a job. Even people in their late 30'ies got a job. What else can i do?? Getting older and see that other people get a flying job?

Now, if you are saying you have a flying job for me, i'm always prepared to listen your proposal.

Best regards

inner
12th Sep 2007, 08:40
No

I have no FI rating. Two reasons i don't get this: first, the local flying clubs are full with instructors, a lot of 'would be instructors' are also looking for a position. Secondly i feel i don't have the skills to be a good instructor.(For me it is difficult to explain something in a good understandable way). And i think a good instructor is an instructor who loves to give instruction and not doing this because of the 'hour-building'.

GHB100R
16th Sep 2007, 18:50
I know how you feel but you can always start small and work your way up. Why not find the airlines that no-one has ever heard of. Small, regional airlines are always a good place to start. If you've got a type rating for a small aircraft, these airlines will throw themselves at you. Another good way to start is with start-up airlines. These guys usually don't have much money and if you get there first, you will have a very good chance of getting a job with them. It would also give you the oppertunity to maybe proceed up the ranks and stay with the airline for many years to come. Post a thread on the airlines forum and ask for any info on start-up airlines. I'm sure it will help!

Hope it all works out!
:ok:

dartagnan
17th Sep 2007, 09:25
maybe he doesn't have a type rating to start, and most type ratings cost 30'000 euro dash8, or airbus...

this is why it is so difficult to start in this market, lot of money to invest for a lousy paid job.

ithinkso
18th Sep 2007, 00:51
if people didnt pay for type ratings, no one would have to.

the problem with all the young sprogs today is that they have too much money and think that by purchasing themselves a job they will win in the end. unfortunately this is not the way it works.

its a viscious circle and it never stops. stop paying for the ratings and get trained by the airlines that want to employ you. these low cost carriers that are having accidents all over the place at the moment are having prangs simply because they are not making the right investment in their people. low cost means poor training. a sad but completely true fact.

stop paying for ratings and you will find that carriers will have to start paying for them.

BitMoreRightRudder
18th Sep 2007, 01:20
the problem with all the young sprogs today is that they have too much money

Really? I beg to differ. Have a look at my loan repayment schedule for the next 6 years. It's not me, or my piers that have too much money, it's the bank manager.

low cost means poor training. a sad but completely true fact.

Fact? No ithinkso, what you are doing is confusing fact with total absolute :mad:. The level of twaddle spouted on pprune these days is sadly on the rise, but you are really taking the twaddle spouting to new levels with this one. At best you are making an overwhelming and completely untrue generalisation. Tell me, which LCCs have you worked for, and therefore experienced this poor level of training in?

Always Moving
18th Sep 2007, 03:16
People do not have a lot of money, I think the problem is that young kids prefer get in debt and get pay peanuts but have the "I am flying a 737" than work on small planes and go up in size slowly (without having to pay)

The only problem is that forces everyone to have a TR since the companies will exploit this "big time" like they are doing it right now.

Why do I need a MCC why do I need a TR why do I need a ATPL written. To fly a plane(and get pay) you only need the Commercial License.

Accidents, I am afraid we will see more and more soon. And thank God(or whatever entity you believe on, or just luck) they are flying planes that fly by themselves. Not like this weekend Thai disaster....

Get an FI license and learn a bit before anything else....... specially now that they pay is good (it will allow you to wipe out that debt in 1 year!) and there is plenty of FI jobs in the world.

boogie-nicey
18th Sep 2007, 10:37
ALways Moving, you provide some interesting commentary. However I must take issue with your last statement to get a FI rating and wipe out your debt within one year? I find the debt almost always dwarfs the income from salary.

ithinkso
18th Sep 2007, 14:55
ive been fortunate enough never to have to work for a low cost carrier. ihave never paid for a TR and i never will.

the fact is you cant argue with statistics. since the low cost carrier model has appeared, they have consistently had a higher accident rate that their higher cost cousins.

you know its the truth, so why argue?

TurboJ
18th Sep 2007, 16:02
Always moving - I think its a bit disrespectful to the deceased and the pilots involved in the Thai disaster to start talking about type ratings, training and linking the two together.

The training provided by the LCCs certainly in the UK is excellent and I know first hand that they chop people who don't make the grade.

There is a time and place, but maybe not after a serious air accident.

dartagnan
18th Sep 2007, 16:45
low cost means poor training. a sad but completely true factotally true


Tell me, which LCCs have you worked for, and therefore experienced this poor level of training inlook at Vueling.
poor level of training.
2 hours sim training only every 6 months(just to satisfy regulations),


when some of my friends at Air France have free simulator every month.

I am absolutely not surprised why airplane crashed at the end of runways.
How many wet landing did I do? none.
reason? the sim costs 900 euro/hour, so who will pay for that?
and when you stick to minimum, accidents happen.

Phileas Fogg
18th Sep 2007, 16:51
dartagnan,
You're talking tripe again, the minimum legal requirement is 6 monthly, not monthly, simulator and 95% ish of operators adhere to this and without crashing planes at ends of runways.

Get a life ..... or better still, get a job.

jonjon
19th Sep 2007, 06:00
Now this has to be one of the most stupid post in the history of PPRUNE.

Always Moving, would you mind starting a thread where you give your opinion about current affairs, sports, politics...? It could make really interesting reading!
Even better start a Blog, I promise, we won't laugh...
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Always Moving
19th Sep 2007, 07:17
JONJON you are right I just do not like other people posting a personal moral views without posting the other side too.

But you are right. I do not have a Blog I do not feel THAT righteous.

inner
19th Sep 2007, 07:32
That's easy said:" start small and grow to bigger aircraft". Not everybody has this opportunity. Even small companies do have requirements, requirements which are still unrealistsic for ab-initios.

Call me a taxi-operator who pays my type and i will be working for them!!

TurboJ
19th Sep 2007, 10:52
Moderator - alwaysmoving is completely out of order with his comments - and his language is not becoming of this forum.

pilotmike
19th Sep 2007, 11:49
What a shame this otherwise useful thread has degenerated into such worthless tripe - helped massively by Always Moving. Along with his ill-informed opinions, he has now slumped into the gutter with highly objectionable rants about recently deceased persons. Shame on you AM.

As for the repeated cry by Always Moving, ithinkso and others that everyone should stop paying for type ratings en-mass, the situation is rather similar to that of rubber-necking on the motorway. Everybody wishes to blame the car just in front of them for slowing down, yet they are foced to do exactly the same. The fact is that you can never find the original culprit who started the problem, yet the effects are every bit in evidence. Worse, there is little you can do to 'correct the wrongs' without considerable harm to yourself.

Stating that everyone should immediately stop paying for type ratings is as purile as saying that nobody should ever slow down at the site of an accident, whether or not the car in front does. Following that dictat exactly will inevitably lead to self made difficulties, whether driving past an accident scene or pursuing a career in aviation. Unpalatable, but an almost inevitable fact of modern life.

Your sphere of concern is often broader than your sphere of influence. Have the guts to change what you can, the fortitude to accept what you can't, and the wisdom to be able to distinguish between the two.

MrHorgy
19th Sep 2007, 12:01
Well said pilotmike :ok:

It's all very well harping on about not paying, but there will always be someone who will - people can't be guided by the hand the way we'd like them to be!

TurboJ
19th Sep 2007, 16:11
Where are the moderators when you need one - AMs comments are personally, quiet offensive.

dartagnan
19th Sep 2007, 19:20
ithinkso and others that everyone should stop paying for type ratings en-mass

and how do you want stop to pay for your type rating, when I have received 3 offers by 3 airlines this last year(Vueling/Tyrolean/AirDenim), and one for line training by JetAtlas where I have to pay if I want fly.

I have not found one airline ready to finance the type rating.

MrHorgy
19th Sep 2007, 20:25
You mean AtlasJet? And they had the cheek to say "you have a job"? That's not a job, that's a glorified sales pitch. I'd tell them where to go!

dartagnan
20th Sep 2007, 09:52
yes, atlasjet the flightschool!

this is how deep the rabbit's hole goes:yuk:




A320 Type Rated First Officers for Line Training and Line Experience by their own expenses;

General Requirements;
* JAR FCL ATPL / Frozen ATPL
* Type Rating on A320 valid 1 year
* Valid Class 1 Medical Certificate valid 1 year
* Fluent English (written and spoken)

1.We take the work permit for you from the government
2.the amount for the training is 70.00 USD/per hour
3.you must take at least 150 flight hours (total amount for is150x70USD=10.500 USD)
4.accommodation and other expenses are to be covered by your self in Istanbul

When the accumulating 500 hrs on A320 , you may have a chance to join the company A320 fleet by the contract, whether you have sufficient performance.

There will be selection process of candidates who will be eligible to have Line and Line Experience Training


Screening on 11 / 10 / 2007 at 04:00 – 08:00

For the interview fill out attached forms and bring them with the followings with you please:

·Pilot license valid 1 year ( colored )
·Medical license valid 1 year ( colored )
·Passport valid ( colored )
·Diploma valid ( colored )
·24 pass photos valid ( like the photos on your passport )

Please scan above mentioned documents coloredand bring them on a flash player ( memory,usb ) with you,
We can’t accept the documents if you just bring copies,
because we have to keep them as soft copies
on our computer ( if you get employed we will need them later )

Thank you very much for your cooperate and understanding,

BitMoreRightRudder
21st Sep 2007, 09:27
ive been fortunate enough never to have to work for a low cost carrier

Then how can you possibly comment on the standard of training in any LCC, anywhere? I work for a European LCC and the standard of training, both initial and recurrent, is excellent. More importantly, my colleagues in the LHS who have worked at legacy and charter outfits all over the world think the same, and they actually have a basis for comparison. I say again ithinkso, you are generalising - what you state is not fact, it is your personal opinion.

the fact is you cant argue with statistics. since the low cost carrier model has appeared, they have consistently had a higher accident rate that their higher cost cousins.


Go find these statistics. It could take you some time to dig them up however - they don't exist. I'm just curious as to the reasons behind your unfounded prejudice towards LCCs. Do you view myself (and my 1500 colleagues) as inferior and incapable because I was trained by and am currently employed by an LCC?

redsnail
21st Sep 2007, 11:13
If "ithinkso's" from where I think he's from then to a certain degree, his statement about lo-co's is probably right. European lo-co's are a different kettle of fish.

r44flyer
22nd Sep 2007, 20:29
Someone should tell AtlasJet that colour photocopying/scanning your passport is illegal. := :rolleyes:

Always Moving
22nd Sep 2007, 23:42
R44FlyerWhy is it illegal? I do it all the time!

r44flyer
23rd Sep 2007, 10:03
I always thought it was illegal, along with colour photocopies of bank notes, intended as an obvious joke or otherwise :confused:

Could be wrong though, of course.

dartagnan
23rd Sep 2007, 16:22
good idea, I will pay Atlasjet with US$ scanned and printed by myself.

babymike737
2nd Oct 2007, 18:57
Hi,

I came across this thread by accident, whilst searching for something else regarding recruitment. (Anyone know if or when Virgin are recruiting, and how you apply?) and I have been completely hooked on reading each and every post.

I was once a CPL/IR 250 hour pilot, dreaming of sitting in the right hand seat of a shiny Boeing jet. Then 2000 CV's later, and still no reply from those dudes from Cameroon looking for an F/O in a Cargo converted HS748, flying goats up the valley, and dodging anti-aircraft fire, (actually sounds like fun), I decided to get a Flight Instructor rating.

I was an instructor at a flying club which was part of an airport, and as a result, many airline pilots came around to the club for toasties and coffee before and after work. Eventually, I had a big break, as many other of my instructor colleagues did previously, and landed a jet job, after just 9 months instructing.

I'm nobody special. I didn't pass all my exams and tests first time! I wasn't even that great an instructor! I was luckier than 6 of my instructor colleagues in the fact that I got a 737 job straight away whilst they got ATR jobs, but now they are all on A319's or 737's now. :)

It is about being in the right place at the right time, and about knowing people. But you can create that for yourself. Don't get a job down a garden centre, or behind a bar, like some of my mates have after training. If you really want that job, you've got to GO TO IT. It won't come to you, with 250 hours. Like many here have said, drop jumpers, instruct, polish bloody planes, serve coffee to passengers, but whatever you do, stay in aviation on a daily basis. Choose a flying club within an airport that has regional props or loco jets flying in and out of it. You may have to move. If you want it that bad, do it! Don't pick a flying club in mid wales with a 1200ft runway and 3 tomahawks you won't meet enough people in the right positions. And be nice. Have a gentle and careful attitude (Vito!:ugh:) I understand your frustrations, but if you're going to be like that after 6 months looking for a job, man, I would hate to be sitting next to you for 12 hours a day, experiencing some of the **** we have to put up with on line! Just smile, be happy, and be liked, and you might get the nod!
(It's nice to be important. But its more important to be nice)

Good Luck All

mark8647
3rd Oct 2007, 23:25
i have seen this coin from both sides...

i have worked for company's and addmitingley had the odd word put in the right ear however i am on the long road to being an airline pilot :} and i know its going to be a a hard and paticualary long road compared with many other jobs!!!

What still surprises me is that you if you are willing to go and spend all that money, as i am, and pass all those exams you still rarley get a look in.

i quote from a reputable flight instructor " its not what you know, its who you know" i thought those days were gone but clearly not!!!!!!!!!!!:*

dartagnan
6th Oct 2007, 08:04
it is not what you know, or who you know...

it is HOW MUCH DO YOU HAVE?

got 3 "jobs" offer, I have to pay for all. the "Pay to play" scheme!

Wee Weasley Welshman
6th Oct 2007, 12:56
Don't pick a flying club in mid wales with a 1200ft runway and 3 tomahawks you won't meet enough people in the right positions.

You'd meet me and a retired Concorde Captain!

All sound advice. Thanks.

Airbus Girl
9th Oct 2007, 22:34
Alot of people on here seem to not read the newspapers. So here's a tip. Keep current with what is going on in the world, have a good attitude and try and be a little more modest. Try and keep your licence current.
There have been a number of mergers recently which means that there will be a reduction of pilot numbers rather than an increase. Some airlines (like the one I work for) are ordering bigger aircraft to cope with increases in passenger loads so even with an increase in business there might not be more jobs. You would also know that in Asia airlines are rapidly expanding, which may impact on the UK market.
If you have the right attitude and are persistent then things will pay off for you.
No airline owes you a job and if that attitude comes across then you won't get a job flying.
And yes, I am a real pilot and no, I didn't get my job through anyone I knew or having lots of money.

Always Moving
10th Oct 2007, 02:20
After reading Airbus Girl I had to write a comment...

Seams that the pprune forum is only about the UK.
I do not want to get into how and why you driving a bus, but you are a girl and that matters, company love to hire girls. So like you say let's be all a bit more humble. (please do not take it personal)

Mergers...yes they are not good for anyone, only the share holders.

Asia market expanding, YES, taking over the world.... I doubt it, if you knew how things are in Asia you will not be afraid at all, it will take decades if not century for this people to get their stuff together. BELIEVE me! the longer I am here the longer I think is going to take, I could write a funny (after the fact, when it happens is infuriating) book of things that happened in Asia.

In the bright side, this is the best times in aviation ever! new planes, new avionics-information systems, new everything!

Attitude should matter, and I think in everything but the airlines matters, who wants to work with an ass:mad:hole, but I think to the airlines the only thing it matters is money, because I have seen a lot of ass:mad:holes getting jobs with them.

Please new guys! check the spelling on your CV, organize it so the receiver does not have to search for what license from what country you have(modify it to fit the job that you are applying for), how much times you have in what, and please when you have an interview, be as serious as you can be, I have been on some, lately that they thought I was their buddy or something.

Good luck!

dartagnan
10th Oct 2007, 22:57
I am still always "chocked" when I see guys coming with jeans and T-shirt for an interview.
Get a clue!, an interviewer want see how you will look if you get the job.
Get a hair cut, and dress smart.

I can not believe it's not real butter, but some guys come unshaved and with long hair!


http://www.tasteyoulove.com/

oneill10999
15th Oct 2007, 22:16
Sorry, this is prob. a really dumb question? but it was mentioned that buying your own "TR" can get you a job..........i was just wondering what this means???

Thanks :)

r44flyer
16th Oct 2007, 09:25
TR = type rating.

You can pay for your own type rating on a 737 or whatever, then apply to a 737 operator already knowing how to fly their aircraft. It can be very beneficial but the problem is that many people will already have forked out tens of thousands for ATPL training, and £15-20k on top for a TR is a lot to ask, hence the big debate over whether it's worth it.

Always Moving
17th Oct 2007, 04:07
The debate is not whether it is worth it or not!

It is whether it is ethical!

To me is as unethical as people working for peanuts.

dartagnan
17th Oct 2007, 08:55
To me is as unethical as people working for peanuts.



not only they work for peanuts, but some pilots are forced to leave their job.

I have met some pilots, who recently told me that if they don't make enough money after 3 months, they will be forced to leave their flying job considering they have 2-3 kids at home to feed (some companies pay you 1500 euro/month and you must pay your TR).

well, if some pilots love so much this job and be paid nothing, take my place.

MrHorgy
17th Oct 2007, 12:31
Dartagnan,

When considering a career change, individuals must move into their new career with open eyes, and be aware of any risks. To say otherwise is stupid. Just because people don't earn as much as they think is not an excuse to jump up and down and sulk.

I'm well aware I might be working for peanuts for my first 6 months. I have weighed the risks, and I am lucky that I am a 22 year old, single man living at home. For someone with a family, a house, bills and an expensive wife, perhaps TR's aren't the way forward. Different people will have different routes into the industry.

lil_blueberry
17th Oct 2007, 22:40
40G, is that all you have spent! haha, wow......

Anyways, plenty of Instructing jobs, usually a good place to start so you can learn:
* People Skills (which alot of pilots dont have)
* Hone the flying sskills you already have and
* make new contacts and build up total time.

Yes it is not overly awesome as scoring a twin job staight out of school.....but few people really do...... the industry is changing so people with less time seem to be getting twin jobs more than a couple years ago.....so consider yourself lucky that this is happening.....

Also, most people think that this is a normal job.....bullsh*t!!!!!!! You cant send your resume and expect phone calls with employers to beg you for a job....especially for a job in high performance a/c (twins etc).

You have to visit them or phone them (not stalk them) and show that you keen....... Take this on board........ you have not had any practical industry experience only theory flying.......you need real world experience and that's what will get you the job....

To keep the job; save the employer money (fuel costs) keep the planes in good nick (clean, maintenance discussions with cheif pilot etc), be flexible AND DONT BE A ******** TO SENIOR PILOTS.....they have more influence on your job than you think sometimes. Do things the way the company and senior pilots like things to be done and discuss with them other options if you think there is a better way.

Expect to be worked to the bone ( I have worked almost 6days per week on average for about 3 to 4 years and less than $28000p/a to get to the position i am in now...1700Hrs 600twin PIC hours etc) so dont whine about the hard yards.

Skydiving work may be your other option...don't discount it completely as it will teach you how to be a real world savvy pilot...and handle pressure!

good luck and do your best.

Always Moving
18th Oct 2007, 03:25
I do not agree with lil_blueberry

Working hard YES working more than 40h a week NO(without any more monetary compensation as per LAW), just because you want to work more (if you are not getting compensated for it) is the same as buying a TR or work for peanuts.

And I think some people in this forum do not understand the TR problem. PLEASE read the archives it has been talked thoroughly.

Think about us not just you and what is going to happen to you in the future if you think only about yourself.

lil_blueberry
18th Oct 2007, 05:20
Alwaysmovin,

this is not a normal career.....thinking about the rest of us is a load of hog wash sometimes simply because if you don't take the job your hours and experience wont change and neither will your prospects.....

UNLESS THERE IS A MASS PILOT STRIKE THINGS WILL CHANGE EXCRUCIATINGLY SLOWLY


I agree, think WE not ME, and thats what I did when I gave a young upstart twin time and an endorsement on a C208 (and gave up some of that time/pay for myself) in return for him working hard and being a good bloke he will get the right hours and not have to post questions regarding where the jobs are..... (support your fellow pilots even though the employers sometimes dont)

I am not saying accept dangerous jobs and foolhardy financial prospects but surely one who enters the workforce and is not prepared to do the hard yards (both in pay and time) simply does not deserve the job due to the silver spoon attitude. You get nothing for nothing! Unfortunately the only place i could bargain for my wage was skydiving (sorta) and instructing (now that there is a shortage).

generally most places wont make you work more than the CAO's limit but it comes down to what are you getting out of it?

After a few hours under your belt you definitely have more bargaining power and can afford to tell the boss that's not good enough but until then low time pilots cannot afford snob the industry/GA..... hell we all gotta eat! And working hard does build character.

So if your really worried about a job, go get an instructing job where you could almost name your price and be employed.........but hey everyone wants that top job/pay first! :) until then........

Peace out and happy prospects.........:ok:

dnk
19th Oct 2007, 09:52
So anyone got any gen on where in the world I can get my next job with 1000hrs single, (850 PIC) and a fresh Van rating?

cutiepie
20th Oct 2007, 16:30
HI GUys,

I am new on here and dont knwo how to start a new forum, i just wanted some advice, i have alwasy been fascinated with aviation industry and my perfect job would have been an airline pilot, but thats out of question as i dont have the finance, and i thought about cabincrew but i am only 5ft tall, what else is there that i can get into?? any ideas?

Mercenary Pilot
20th Oct 2007, 16:49
This thread is probably a good place to start. :ok:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251490

Otherwise there are always ground operational jobs such as Dispatch, Flight planning etc.

maxdrypower
20th Oct 2007, 16:50
Faling that have a look at the Cabin Crew threads
http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=40

Joston
21st Oct 2007, 04:17
cutiepie,

If you don't have the finance, then why don't you go out and earn some money. Work as hard as you can for a few years and save like hell until you have enough money to go for it. It is not that difficult (in theory).

Good luck.

MrHorgy
21st Oct 2007, 10:40
"Saving? But what about all the shoes I want!" :P

On a more serious note, cutiepie - just because your 5ft may mean you can't work for larger operators, but companies like Eastern Airways and regionals have smaller aircraft so you might get a look in with them? I know eastern are recruiting for all bases - http://www.easternairways.com/content/view/52/110/

Rookie Bondi
22nd Oct 2007, 05:17
As a newly trained pilot I'm struggling to find any employment out there in Aus.

I'm willing to go do the hard yards and relocate. I have done the old send my resume out and knock on doors but the response is all the same at the moment... need a few more hours mate but I'll keep ya in mind.

Only with 170 hours, I know I'm very inexperienced but just need a start to boost those hours up because I'm not a guy with much cash laying around seeing I've spent it all to get where I'm at.

Any tips???

Thanks

duallie
25th Oct 2007, 15:27
I've read alot about how hard you've all worked to get there, but now it's time to work and fly. I need FI's if you want to put those fantastic skills of yours to good use and train the next generation of AV8'rs.

r44flyer
28th Oct 2007, 11:46
This is largely my current dilemna. While I would actually want to come back to instructing after I have put some decent money away from the airlines, I find myself now wondering whether to pay for an integrated course and risk needing to pay for an FI course as well if I don't get a FO job, or bank on the FI rating being a reality and initially save money by going modular.

Decisions decisions.

CamelhAir
28th Oct 2007, 11:59
Mr Horgy, re post 202:
What are you going to do when you're no longer 22 and living at home? What happens when it's you with the house, car and expensive wife and you need a new job that demands a buying a TR which some young pup who's only 22 and living at home is willing to pay for????
Jeez lads, wake up, look at the big picture. You're cutting your own throats.

Different people will have different routes into the industry.

Some of which destroy your future, some of which don't You've admitted that the TR route is not sustainable, so why not try a different route that protects your future?

MrHorgy
28th Oct 2007, 12:05
Camel,

When I am not 22, and not living at home, I will examine my options and assess the risk of investing in my future against the risk imposed on my family. I wouldn't dare dream of having kids unless I was in a stable, enjoyable job anyway.

I don't call banging my head against a wall a career path, if I have to stump up a little more money than so be it.

redsnail
28th Oct 2007, 12:58
Rookie Bondi, if you're willing to relocate, then do so. :)

Sending resumes may work if you're a Grade 1 with Twin training approval etc.. Read through the Dununda forums for the tips and tricks for the big drive.

bluenose81huskys
1st Nov 2007, 21:46
Sounds like a bitches paradise on here!:ugh:

Everyone has there own opinions and what they want to do, dont try and tell some one they are wrong cause they are 22 years old, the lad sounds pretty switched on to me and knows what he wants and its crertainly not a bitching session off someone!

MrHorgy
1st Nov 2007, 23:52
pilotmike,

Your cheques in the post :ok:

Always Moving
2nd Nov 2007, 00:13
Mr Horgy your "so be it" is the prevailing reason/attitude of even the companies are short on pilots, they have "BUY A JOB" schemes in the business.

So is NOT "so be it", besides, if I am your boss I will be like Yeeeaaa the next renewal we are gonna shake this Horgy for another few thousand dollars or his TR will expire, you know he swallows he already did it once.....he probably like it too
:mad:

You get my "drift"?

MrHorgy
2nd Nov 2007, 15:02
Please don't confuse my "so be it" as a "i'm giving up this is inevitable" type attitude. Unfortunately I wasn't one of those lucky people to afford to go to Oxford and so an interview didn't land on my lap. Approximately 80 airlines have my CV and I have had ONE reply - "Thanks we'll contact you if we're scraping the barrel" etc..

My attitude is well if something has to be done then it's better to go and do it - I refer you to my previous comments about weighing up the pros and cons. If an airline invites me to fly for them but I smell a rat then I won't take it pure and simple, it's an informed decision. That's one of the reasons I trawl Pprune amongst other sources for information on employers.

I still stand by any decisions I make, whether people like them or not. Once I am installed in a job (touch wood it happens) then I will be campaigning and pressuring where possible to make companies pay for TR's as much as possible. But unfortunately, that day is past now.

MrHorgy
4th Nov 2007, 15:07
STS,

Not at all, I value everyones opinions, even if I don't see eye to eye with them.

Your quite correct in making a CV stand out - I have two years operational cabin crew experience on Boeing & Airbus, flying Long and Short Haul. I've taken part in aviation charity events (hey I met Jeremy Spake on one!) and I have immediate availability worldwide. It's never enough.

What it tells me about the aviation industry is that it needs a good kick in the backside with regards to recruiting. I, nor my family, nor any other person I know can believe the system of speculative CV's and shady recommendations from flight schools that goes on in the industry - if it was any other then it'd have been sorted a long time ago. it's very disheartening, and that's why (although I don't endorse it) I also have to examine the possibility of having to pay for a type rating.

shaun ryder
5th Nov 2007, 13:17
Dentists, lawyers and doctors don't have to do it and they probably out earn us.


Blimey scratchin, probably? More like definately.

davey147
5th Nov 2007, 17:24
Slightly true, but you say it as if they have it a lot easier than trainee pilots, I can only explain to you the process of becoming a doctor (dentist is similar), I dont know anything about lawers though.

- 5 or 6 years of medical school, of which is unpaid. About 50% of this is training in the clinical environment. Most medical students leave with between 40 - 50k of debt. Student is now a 'Dr'.

- 2 years as an RHO/SHO in a hospital, this is paid. How much do you think? its about 15 - 25k, an experienced SHO will earn approx 40k. The working hours are terrible, most work 50 to 60 hours pw + doing on-call for little extra cash.

- A further 5 to 6 years training if the Dr wants to specialise in a certain field, i.e. become a 'consultant'. Earnings as a 'Registrar' 50k+, Earnings as a 'Consultant' 100k+.

To move into General Practice, its a further 2-3 years training as a 'GP Registar' then you would become a GP. A salaried GP earns between 60k and 80k, and a partner GP would earn 90k + (dont believe what you read or watch on the TV, GP's do not earn 250k per year, there's literally a hand full that do and this is due to them having more than one role)

To summarise both careers -

Doctor

- 10 to 15 years training.
- Average starting wage 20k.
- Average final wage 90k.
- Working hours good during the later stages of the career, work bank hols, xmas etc.
- Easier to get the first job, but uncertancy of future in some fields.
- Debt after training 35k+
- No ongoing training or revalidation once qualified.

Airline Pilot

- 2 years training (Including TR)
- Average starting wage 20k (TP) 35k (Jet)
- Working hours similar to a doctor.
- Hard to get the first job. Industry is not stable, may loose job at anytime.
- Possible debt 60k+ (Integrated) 30k+ (Modular)
- Ongoing training and tests every 5 - 6 months.

Now looking at the details it is a lot easier to train to be a pilot, and generaly the starting wages are A LOT better than a Doctor (remember the Doctor doesnt earn for the first 5 - 6 years, if luck a pilot will earn after the first 18 months to 2 years)

The working hours are not very nice for either job, probably better for a Doctor once they have an established career.

The job security isnt as good for a pilot, doctors wont loose their jobs if the become ill for example.

The average salary for a Doctor is 85k and for a pilot 75k (Times Newspaper Website)

I know its not very nice when you're in debt, worked hard on your training, and sitting there with no job. But before comparing with a Doctors job, they have had a lot harder journey than you, and earn relativley the same throughout their careers.

Good Luck

P.S. Im not a Doctor.

2466
5th Nov 2007, 18:49
:{

poor Vito.6 months and no job.

join the rest of us and stop moaning

the aviator1977
5th Nov 2007, 19:17
Just thought i'd share my good news with everyone. Having gained my CPL/IR almost three and a half years ago I have now got a job on a turboprop. I was a modular student and currently have 450 hrs TT. I can't say who I will be working for yet (sworn to secrecy) but if I can get this job then most pilots with a bit of sense can too!

I am delighted with my success and all my hard work and my positive attitude has paid off. I am extremely proud of myself to get this job and will continue to work hard and enjoy the flying.

Oh and I don't have to pay for the type rating either!

Ivor_Novello
5th Nov 2007, 19:17
Dentists, lawyers and doctors don't have to do it and they probably out earn us.

I know a former GP who's now a Flybe Captain. Guess he'd be the best candidate to comment on the "Pilot vs Doctor" comparison :)
Guess he's quite handy to have in case of an illness on board too !

Anyway, I am no airline pilot, nor a doctor, so perhaps not really entitled to comment, but on the subject of the debt and training costs, I just wanted to say that is not always necessary to end up in huge debt.

I am nowhere near the end of my training, in fact I only got a PPL plus about a 100 hours. Which is nothing really, compared to what awaits. But by having a decent job and financing my own training as I go along so far I haven't raked up a penny of debt, in fact I have put some savings aside which could already pay for my CPL. Oh and even bought myself a (reasonably priced) car.
By the time I get there (with no rush) I'll probably have saved enough to pay half IR. I can probably get to my training debt free in another 3 years.

Sounds like a long time but it is not really if you enjoy every step of it. I enjoy flying and I don't care if it's in an Ikarus, a spamcan or (one day) in a more sophisticated machine. They all do the same thing : lift off and (hopefully) stay aloft !

This modern culture of want it all and now has changed every lifetime ambition into a get on with it quick kind of job. It's X Factor and straight to number 1 in the charts at the age of 18 for singers, and 12 months from 0 hours to Airline for pilots.

I still believe that, although it's a money game, deep down at the front line there are still gonna be human beings flying, recruiting and interviewing which are gonna appreciate and value the patience of individuals which have gone all the way driven by the passion for a lifetime goal rather than desperate to get there before everybody else.

MrHorgy
5th Nov 2007, 22:57
Aviator, Congratulations on the new post, although I don't understand why people refuse to state who they are working for, as if opening the floodgates would somehow remove them from their post.

The very same people who moan we don't stick together and stand up against type ratings are the ones who clam up when a job comes sniffing their way - and I don't point that at you i'm just generalising, but it's just an opportune moment.

wheresryan2
6th Nov 2007, 11:22
Well after reading numerous posts on this thread I would just like to introduce myself wheresryan2, I have just qualifed (260TT), im not going to moan about not finding a job beacuse as I can read there a plenty of fine pilots on this thread who have been waiting alot longer, just wanted to say im jumping aboard the unemployed boat! Good luck everyone!

skyhigher
7th Nov 2007, 08:33
Despite all the doom and gloom on this thread I can confirm that there are jobs out there.

I was interviewed and sent for type rating all within a very short period (2 weeks) just last month. My background is mixed, modular training over 4 years, different schools for each module, FI for 1 year 1000 TT and only 30 hrs multi. I had no contacts within the company to help get the job, only a little bit of luck and a good interview and flight test.

To anyone seeking the first job, I don’t believe the market is as good as everyone seems to claim, but the key to my success I would put down to the FI rating (which greatly improved handling skills and knowledge) and developing a good reputation through networking.

250 TT and a fatpl still seems (I think) and little bit optimistic to walk straight into a FO position, even if you have a pocket full of type rating cash.

Keep the faith, if you want something enough to spend £40,0000 on, then 6 to 12 months job hunting (or whatever it takes) should be nothing.

just my thoughts....

seanbr0wn
7th Nov 2007, 12:50
Try www.aviationrecruitment.co.uk . Seems theres new jobs on there everyday, mainly for pilots and engineers.

shtroumpf
7th Nov 2007, 15:10
Hi 38-year-old-chartered-accountant,

Looks like we have the same profile (only I'm a lawyer). I've been doing a lot of investigating. Have you looked into the US market? What have you decided since your last posting?

wheresryan2
7th Nov 2007, 15:23
Well for a kick of its a different liscence, I actually think its harder to get a job over there beacuse the liscence is so easy there are a lot of people who are qualified, supply out meets demand!

You also need to have a degree in some other subjest as well to even get sniffed at, unfortunatley I have not:ugh:

dartagnan
7th Nov 2007, 19:36
more interviews doesn't mean more jobs but more openings for qualified pilots to replace people leaving for retirement or going to the majors.

Many pilots apply and very few will be selected! the situation is certainly better than in 2001 when there were not a sniff of interview.

sidtheesexist
8th Nov 2007, 11:25
Ivor Novello - absolutely spot on!!!!!!!! :D It's one of the curses of today's society - I want IT ALL NOW without any sense of actually having earned it!! Like you say, it is more and more just a question of money............... :(

airmiles
14th Nov 2007, 17:31
Shtroumpf, don't you need a working visa to be allowed to work in the USA?? Many US companies don't interview you unless you have the right to work in there.

blueb0y79
14th Nov 2007, 19:51
There are many ways to skin a cat as they say.I too did not have the funds to go to Oxford and continued my career on the ground in aviation in order for it to look good on my CV and thus getting further into debt. However I did make useful contacts (which I learnt very quickly what this game is sometimes about) who recommneded me to do a self sponsored A320 type rating at GECAT (this pushed my financial limit to the max!). Passed the tests etc and only 12 months later i'm earning little less than 50k and making the investment work. My terms and conditions are now protected and BAPLA are on my side. This does not mean that i will get shafted again as now i'm in a much better position than i was when i was looking for that first job. (P.S i don't agree with paying for the SSTR too but until a dramatic change takes place you have to make do with what you have got. I think thats taught on an MCC course.)

So this way does work. Maybe not everyone can afford the type rating which is where the turbo prop companies come in, but the industry is now looking brighter for people at an early stage so whichever path you take, remember to keep your chin up, keep those applications on the go and maybe put your face around on the off chance that somebody might rememeber it.

Oh and finally, i know sometimes it's hard but remember to be a nice chap. The more people you step on to get to the top, the more people will kick you on the way down or something like that.

Good luck.

Always Moving
14th Nov 2007, 23:34
So you keep your chin up?

I do not see how, when your boss will tell you, oh by the way we have this upgrade to this airplane and Blueboy since we know you like to pay for TR why do not you go and get one for this plane too. What are you gonna say..... YES SIR! or go :mad:yourself? You can keep your chin up when you got that job by lick :mad:
Then again "You got to do what you got to do" but do not give me....:mad:
And by the way by buying yourself a job YOU did step on every pilot's toes.

chocky
20th Nov 2007, 12:39
Judging by the last post on here I am likely to get some abuse for even starting this up again. But it's obviously not that easy to get a job right now, what are other people's views on buying a type rating? By this I don't mean whether it is morally right or wrong but whether it seems to do the trick and sort out that job where other routes seem to be failing? I'm trying to help out a friend with advice so any thoughts would be appreciated.

Deano777
25th Nov 2007, 15:41
If you check out PPJN.com it is not good reading.

All the majors seem to be quiet for one reason or another:-

BA - not open to the average wannabe
Virgin - forget it
Thomson - merging, not recruiting
Mytravel - same
First Choice - same
Thomas Cook - same
GB Airways - integrated into Easyjet
BMI - overcrewed
BMED - now BMI
Excel - not recruiting
Astraeus - not recruiting
Flyglobespan - not recruiting
Jet2 - not recruiting
Monarch - forget it if you're 250hr Modular
BMI Baby - not recruiting this winter
Air Southwest - not recruiting in numbers
Loganair - only recruiting a few, done now I think
Titan - same as Monarch
DHL - recruitment done?
Highland airways - only needs captains so I believe
Easyjet - not recruiting until 2008?
Eastern - not sure
The only ones who seem to be recruiting steadily at the moment are

Flybe & Ryanair.

My personal opinion is that there is alot of consolidation and there will continue to be consolidation, the economy could be on the way down and oil prices are at an all time high, not good reading if you are trying to get into the industry. Who knows what will happen in 2008 but I think if you don't get in during 2008 then there may be a bit of a wait, this means instructor jobs will start to dry up and be hard to come by.

End of the day alot of airlines have expanded very quickly, and as with any business there will be saturation in the market, i.e too many aircraft, not enough tickets sold, this all leads to a slow down.
I may be entirely wrong, who knows, but I've been watching it for the last 6 months and it is getting quieter & quieter on the recruiting front.

As for a SSTR chocky, well I have said it before, I know of a few people it has gone wrong for, and wrong really bad, personally I think you are mad to do a TR without a firm job offer, a catch 22 maybe, no TR no interview etc but I will say this - if you can't afford for it to go wrong DON'T do it.

Nichibei Aviation
25th Nov 2007, 16:02
Member Deano777 is right.

You must be mad to do a TR without a real reason to do it.
As I've been telling many already, hour buiding costs about the same and pushes you forward (even if you stay in the same row).

I also encourage candidates to apply abroad.
For those willing to apply to Ryanair, consider being flexible and not applying for just one base.

What looks really bad for this area of Europe on the very short term is that there are about 200 pilots (F/O's & captains) to be dropped on the market due to SAS dumping the Dash 8's.
Don't expect many replies if you're applying to Flybe ;)

MrHorgy
25th Nov 2007, 16:05
I wouldn't have thought SAS would have been a major issue, they are dumping the Dash 8 but will aquire something else to replace it so pilots can just expect to be retrained.

Who knows, flybe might snap up the ex-SAS Dash 8's and then there's even more jobs. Who knows in this crazy industry.

Nichibei Aviation
25th Nov 2007, 16:23
Yes indeed, that's also a reason why I mentionned "in the very short term".

Don't know for sure but I heard rumours about SAS looking at A318's, but I say again, I'm not sure. Even if they order them, they will not get them before 2009 anyway.

Only a bunch of pilots (mostly the captains) will be retrained. Dumping 27 aircraft, with at least 10 pilots per aircraft that will make about 70 pilots to be retrained (they will surely keep the most experienced), and the rest, about 200 will be dumped.

It makes sense.

adverse-bump
25th Nov 2007, 18:10
ppjn's info is very old and often out of date.

air southwest have just interviewed and sim checked loads of people for 10 new FO's. so if you only use ppjn your often too late.

dont buy a tr, do a FI, yes it will be a **** 12 months, but u will learn alot, and at the end of it you will be a much better pilot and very employable!

good luck!

Always Moving
25th Nov 2007, 23:23
Choky do not be CHUKY!

All your live they tell you to be good and that crime does not pay.

WELL..... IT DOES! (if you do not think so then keep growing up) but that does not mean we are all going to be career criminals.

Your question about the TR has the same answer. But worse outcome, because if you become a criminal you do not force the rest to be one when you buy a TR you DO.

DO the FI, there is loads of jobs (ask me if you need one) and who knows you might become a pilot in the process!

dartagnan
26th Nov 2007, 09:26
I have a 320 tr, no one interview for the 320 in 1 year unless 500h on type.

Deano777
26th Nov 2007, 10:00
Yes
I say again DONT buy a TR unless you have a firm job offer, too big a risk, but it's your money at the end of the day :)

And what you say about Jet2 recruiting experienced guys is the casing point.

dartagnan
26th Nov 2007, 15:48
to the 30'000 persons reading this post from their recruitment office please, send me a PM if you hire pilots on the 320 and you don't charge money for it.

floggingadeadhorse
26th Nov 2007, 20:16
I have been watching this thread for a good while without feeling the need to reply. I don't want to antagonise anybody, but surely if somebody feels the need to enhance their career prospects by purchasing a TR who are we to judge.

In any other industry there are choices to be made, investments to be made. The SSTR is an idea whos time has come. nobody in their right mind would pay for such a thing if the precident hadn't aleady been set. Here's the news guys it's been set and the likelyhood of it returning to the old days are extremely slim.

I have, like everybody else, who chooses to follow this forum, worked hard and invested a great deal of money in the pursuit of my dream job.
Maybe I differ slightly from the average wanabee, I am the wrong side of 40 and have managed to remain fully employed throughout my training. I have no debt as a result. I also don't have the latest model sports car parked on my drive.

In 2006 I decided to bite the bullet and pay for a 737 TR, I followed this up with a small but essential investment in an interview preparation course with the wonderfull Penny Austin. I have sent out hundreds of CV's and got the usual thanks but no thanks replys.

However, you only need one interview to make it count.

Recently I got that interview and spent 2 weeks researching the company.
I have just been offered my first Jet Job (not on the 737) my interviwer told me after
"with your hours, I would not be interviewing you today, if it were not for the fact that you have already proved that you can complete a Jet TR"

sorry to bring this subject up again but the extra investment can sometimes help.

Always Moving
26th Nov 2007, 23:30
Dartagnan!
We are against people buying TR because it makes everyone have to buy TR
You are asking "the ones you are screwing" for help.
Does sounds normal to you?.
And yes there is little market IN EUROPE, to do anything else but Airline, but there is the rest of the world, so THAT is not an excuse....

I have not met anyone yet that can not pass a TR.

You did not finish the phrase "the extra investment sometimes can help" YOU and screw everyone else.

THIS IT HAS BEEN DISCUSS TO DEATH, TO TR OR NOT TO TR. everyone is free to do what they think, you know my stand.

VNA Lotus
27th Nov 2007, 08:23
Rubbish... Floggingadeadhorse, That's not an arguement from your interview.
As long as you pay for a TR you can be sure you will pass it by 99%.
Honestly I would be curious to know how many people paid for TR and did not pass it at the end!!
I totally agree with Always Moving, but there are always people who pay for a TR...that's life. Because they only want fly a 320 or 737.

Guys, come on, you must know that companies need US, they need pilots.
They don't care about you, for them you are a little pilot, a little boy who bring back money for the companies, just like that.
But you have a dream, and you are naive, so they take advantage of this fact.
Don't tell me that there are not companies who pay TR,I know a lot a friends who did not pay their own TR or in this case, they got a guarantee.
Well you do what you want if you have money, but please don't cry on this forum... It is your fault.

Mrs Bernoulli
27th Nov 2007, 08:59
What do you think is the best TR today IF you´re buying it your self. I´ve heard SAAB340 what do you think.

Philpaz
27th Nov 2007, 11:48
I can pretty much guarentee that theres not a single person out there that would have paid for there TR if they didn't have to. Just like if everyone could afford a full time course with all the frilly bits thrown in they would. No disrespect to pilots but its not like it used to be, your not knights of the sky with bimbos hanging off each arm and a jug of sangria by the pool. Unfortunately this site is clogged up with wanabes that are still clinging to the dream. Better to wake up and smell the coffee now methinks, the UK is one of the best places to be a commercial pilot. The fact that standards are dropping here is realistically just bringing us in line with most of the world and anyone that keeps one eye outside the aviation industry can tell you thats the way it is with everything. If your not willing to drag yourself through the cr@p to get to where you want to be then you dont really want it that bad, if doing an FI, flying a TP or even paying for your TR takes you were you want to be then atleast you can say you really did want it because look what you had to do to get it. Nothing anyone does can stop the UK's aviation industry slumping because people are always going to want value for money and unfortunately thats what your Ryanair, easyjet etc... give. I bet half the people that moan on here got a budget holiday rather than an all singing all dancing Virgin Hol. Am i the only one who sees the Irony here? By demanding value for money (which is every consumers right) you are simply banging the nails in to your own coffins. As the saying goes, you cant have your cake and eat it. This applies to all walks of life.

I wish i could afford an Integrated course on top of my mortgage, i wish i could afford a TR on top of that, most of all I wish i could guarentee a job at the end of it all. Unfortunately i have realised that i'm going to struggle through the modular route, spend an age looking for a job and then earn less than what i'm on now. But atleast i'll be flying, and i'll have a cheeky smile on my face when i think about how many of you will still be on here moaning about it.

Always Moving
27th Nov 2007, 12:10
People with a 250h fresh out of school want to be a FO NOW!
and if they have to get a loan and go in debt so be it, screw everyone else!

In part that is what society has been teaching them instant reward and buy on credit.

So that is were your logic is wrong, there are job but they do not come with the at the bar I am working for an airline glamor! They might not be in your country or in a country that a lot of people consider living.

Farther more, are this guys EVER gonna complain about salary.... I hope not because the reason to be this low is because of them (the ones buying TR)

I can see myself years from now or tomorrow poping someone on the month when he complain about working condition and I find out he BOUT THE JOB

Philpaz
27th Nov 2007, 13:22
If everything you do is as half hearted as your posts i can imagine why your sat there moaning.:ugh:
I would imagine the first people to buy a TR were in a situation where they had a mountain of debt and no job. Rather than go outside the aviation industry for pennys they had one last throw of the dice and got a TR.
Like i said, no one wants to pay for a TR but there are people willing to gamble everything for a chance to break in to the industry.
I for one am not going to belittle them or run them down for that, sounds to me like they are the ones that really want it and dont just expect it.

flyingcamel
27th Nov 2007, 13:43
Keep trying people. Just landed my first job and no need to buy anything else (except maybe a private pension). There are opportunities but you just have to keep plugging away to get the nod. I did the assessment for a certain Irish based loco and thought I'd done rather well - didn't get it (thankfully, in retrospect.) However, thought I'd made a balls of the assessment for the job I was just offered, so hey ho. You never know what might happen. Just keep harassing/networking with other pilots, it might get you in somewhere!

Like many wise people have said before me - keep your chin up, and don't give up. It WILL happen!

EjetSetter
27th Nov 2007, 14:39
Exactly, just keep trying and talking. The more pilots that deny crappy non-bonded SSTR jobs the better there conditions will get; just ask Tyrolean. And if you need a place to still fly be an FI. Fun job with a lot of challenges.

ReallyAnnoyed
27th Nov 2007, 16:42
Passing a TR is not as easy as some of the posters make it out to be. The pass rate is very far from 99%. It is an expensive thing for an airline to put a guy on a TR if he fails because he a) costs money on wasted training b) leaves a gap in the seat of the airplane which needs to be filled by another guy - one they now have to find yesterday.

So, you can see the bean counter's desire for maximum chance of the candidate's success. The best way to determine those criteria is another matter.

Naturally, you do not hear people boasting about a failed TR course, but it is not an uncommon phenomenon.

Mercenary Pilot
27th Nov 2007, 16:51
Naturally, you do not hear people boasting about a failed TR course, but it is not an uncommon phenomenon.Also, there are quite a few who don't get through the base check. In other words, they can't land the real aircraft.

I know of AT LEAST 5 pilots who couldn't make the transition on to large multi crew aircraft, some on the TR some on the base check.

floggingadeadhorse
27th Nov 2007, 20:04
Mercenary Pilot is quite correct there are many pilots who embark on a TR course only to find that when it comes to the base check they are unable to land the real aircraft.

Imagine you are the Fleet captain of an airline who has to explain to his superiors that he took on this guy, invested 20 grand in him, used the companies resources to try and train him, only to find that he can't land the aircraft.
It is true that most people who choose to carry out a type rating will eventually achieve a pass, the question is how many extra hours and extra pounds will it cost. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, with a TR you are a more attractive proposition.

Always Moving, I am disappointed at your failure to understand how things work in the real world. If you are willing to help support my wife and 2 kids, I will gladly stand next to you and wait until airlines decide to pay for training again, I can assure you it would be cheaper to buy the rating as I fear we will be waiting a fair while.

Pilotmike, as you rightly say companies will always look for the people who stand out from the crowd, the last thing they want is a training risk. I shall send your usual cheque in the post to thank you for your kind comments.

In summary I think we can all agree that to pay for a rating is not the most favourable way to get into this industry, we must all weigh the pros and cons of our personal situations and make our own decisions. For me the chosen path was, without question, the correct one

Norrington
28th Nov 2007, 07:05
Dear Human resources,

Thank you for your letter of November 12. After careful consideration, I
regret to inform you that I am unable to accept your refusal to offer me
an first officer position in your company.

This year I have been particularly fortunate in receiving an unusually
large number of rejection letters. With such a varied and promising field
of candidates, it is impossible for me to accept all refusals.

Despite your outstanding qualifications and previous experience in
rejecting applicants, I find that your rejection does not meet my needs at
this time. Therefore, I will assume the position of first officer in your department this December.
I look forward to seeing you then.

Best of luck in rejecting future applicants.

Sincerely,
First Officer :ok:

wheresryan2
28th Nov 2007, 16:59
Very Very funny Norrington, you have made my day with that post! Well Done!:D