So where are all the jobs then?

[VNA Lotus]

excellent Norrigton! :} Very true however...

[Superpilot]

Norrington,

:ok:

[ERIK C]

:D Applause for Chief Pilot Norrington! :E

[ShotOver]

Listen. I don't want to discourage you, but you do need to look at the reality. The training is tough, finding a job is tougher, and keeping a job is tougher still. Look at all the pilots that have jobs that you would kill for. They are complaining about one thing or another. There is something about most pilots that they are just never happy. Maybe part is that while younger we all saw the big paychecks, glamour, whatever...... It isn't like that anymore. Americans and Europeans (previously THE markets where it was good to be a pilot) are escaping to places we never thought we'd be in order to pay the bills. We are about the only profession where WE pay thousands to get a job. Others just get a job. We must do a good job once there, and give some buerocrat the opportunity to take our license twice a year. We're scrutinized at least annually for our medical condition. There aren't many jobs that are subject to the fluctuations in the market like ours is.

So, you must be tuned in on all these differences between a flight career, and the rest of the working world. Is it fair, hmmmm maybe the pax think so. Is it easy, no. Is it financially smart, NO. So, why do we do it? Either we have big hearts and passion, or we're just stupid.

Think very hard about your future. Look beyond the glamour. You paid alot of money so far, yes, but not as much as you may spend in the future. Are you already qualified as a professional in another field? Anything you're interested in? If so, consider that field, make alot of money, and buy an airplane.

I hate to say it; I've been flying too long to change careers. Now, it's what I know. In many ways the military, charter, corporate, and now commercial have provided a mix of experiences good and bad. However, when I have to 'recommend' to a younger person what to 'consider' as a future, I have to provide this perspective.

Here is a task for you. Factor out a responable career where you are paid a reasonable salary over your work years. Then factor out a flight career, with the temp contracts, down turn in economy (furlough), type ratings, etc. Unless you get lucky, it proves my point. There are exceptions. So, please don't give some sort of stupid response that says, "I was hired into an airline with only 150 hrs.....My parents paid for my 120k Euro school, and my dad knew the chief pilot, etc, etc, etc" There are exceptions, both honest, and favored. That's life. What can YOU do? What do YOU want?

If after all these responses, you still want to be a professional pilot, then follow the already great posts presented here. It'll get you through.

Cheers (We all feel, or have felt your pain)

[Philpaz]

One of the best posts i've ever read!

Thankyou!!!!:ok:

[EjetSetter]

Shot Over, I read your post and I do agree with you in one sense that the training just to get a CPL or frozen ATPL is rediculous. However I along with most pilots on here have a big heart and deep passion and truely can't imagine anything else to do.

What gets me going is the people who paid for the TR. I guess for me its annoying to think thoes people wanted a job badly enough not to go another way. FI's or GA pilots make small change but the experienced learned is second to none.

If most pilots said go shove it FR, FR would have to bump up its T&C's. That won't happen because most pilots are so desperate for the first job that Ryanair is the most desperate option. And then they get screwed come on here and complain.

[stellair]

With a CPL/IR and 200 hrs you don't need a type rating for the jobs that most suit your experience, when your hours are in tripple figures and you have a few years of real world airmanship under your belt things may look different.....It's like obtaining a yachtsmans certificate and expecting to operate a supertanker......good luck to those with a sensible career plan to their desired employment :ok:

[pre3sg]

with regards to finding that first job are people simply refering to stepping into the right hand seat of a big jet or are we talking about any type of flying job here?

what I really want to know is - what about all the other flying jobs out there such as instructing, or taxi work? is competition equally high for these sort of jobs? or like I said are these sort of jobs not considered when refering to achieving that 'first job?'

[Always Moving]

There seem to be a bit of confusion.

PPRUNE is world wide and some people, when they talk they think there is only one country in the world, the one they live in.

In Europe there is not a lot of other things beside Airline-busdriving, and most youths are the only thing the think about.

For those youths I will tell them some of the options: water bombing, fire surveillance, charte, fractional ownership, corporate, air-ambulance, fish spotting, coast-surveillance, sight seeing, aerial mapping, banner towing, agricultural spraying, I am sure I forget some.

NOW there is a ton of jobs out there for the newbies but you have to start THINKING globally since you ARE in a global market.

[punk01]

Have you tried standing out from the crowd?? Maybe a bus license with a driver authority NT is your best area to start? Most scenic flight organisations require this..A forklift ticket is also a plus for frieght ops.. Maybe a trade or special skill .. in 6 months you could have achieved all this for a fraction of the 40grand u invested ..and for you wishfulls take my advise..
been there done that !

[as17]

Exactly how many people come on to pprune "having been screwed over by FR and then moaning about it"? As far as I can see, the only people who are complaining about Ryanair are the people who don't work for them. Having looked at the facts, including talking to many actual Ryanair pilots about pay, conditions etc, I concluded that paying for your own TR at Ryanair would make much better financial sense than accepting a job with Flybe with the TR paid for by the airline. This was in terms of both take home pay and employment prospects after leaving each respective airline after a few years to move on to bigger and better things. Ryanair is not a bad option at all for a first job if you are lucky enough to be able to raise the capital for the TR to begin with.

And as for all those comments about getting air taxi work or FI jobs, this is generaly not what airlines want to see. FI work bares almost no relevance to multi crew airline jobs and air taxi work will give you bad habits. I have seen FIs with a couple of thousand hours under thier belts fail TR courses and guys with air taxi work get told off for having very bad CRM. In short, if you are just out of flying school with only a few hundred hours, go for an airline job, even if you have to pay for a type rating. It isn't nice, but this is the world we are living in now.

[portsharbourflyer]

Just want to add something positive to this, but as for the comments that airlines don't want FIs. Well in the last three months I have been invited to five airline interviews/assessments. Background FI with 800+ hours. Start the new job in the new year.

[as17]

You may be right, I've heard different things. The criteria of each airline's HR department will vary.

[shaun ryder]

Obviously your airlines HR department are only interested in people like yourself who are prepared to pay their way into this industry. Your biased views of instructors and air taxi pilots are way wide of the mark. You make comments about 'bad habits' and 'bad crm', were you fed this info whilst having your wallet willingly jammed open by your fabulous employer? And how does flying around in your blue 737 make you better than the next chap eh? :yuk:

[Joe_Bar]

AS17 has heard something.

Obviously it did not come from the 5 airlines that invited portsharbourflyer.

[badboy raggamuffin]

scratchingthesky, in what capacity do you work for your airline? I would put money on you not being a pilot.

Have just under 300hrs and am in the middle of a multi crew type rating myself. The aircraft handles completely different to a light aircraft. The type of flying and the things I am learning are so different form any single pilot flying I have done before that I fail to see how another 700hrs in a cessna 152 would be of any use whatsoever.

If an airline does put a 1000hrs minimum requirement on its recruits then it can only be useful in terms of acting as a filter to cut down the amount of CVs to be read.
When it comes to multicrew flying in a large aircraft, to say that a 200 hr guy is more of a risk than a guy with 1000hrs in a C152 or other light aircraft is wrong in my opinion.

[Parson]

As well as filtering out alot of CVs, the 500/750/1000 TT requirement that a few airlines now have enable you to move to the LHS quicker which is in the ineterest of the employer as this reduces the need for DECs.

[shaun ryder]

I will tell you that I both fly and have been involved in groundschool training new pilots for airline. The ones with zero experience like yourself raggamuffin, with the odd exception ofcourse, tend to struggle more than the ones with three times the experience. The fact of 200hr wannabees being more of a training risk is sad but true nevertheless.

[Messerschmitt]

How does one get's a job in Canada as a heli pilot?
I finished my school, and traveled thorugh all the Alberta and B.C., knocked on every door, and all they tell me is they have no use for me.

I mean what do I have to do.
I am thinking of somehow getting myself a FAA licence to go to US and try to find something there in instructing. Here in Canada it's impossible to get the difference between the 100hrs you finish and 250hrs for instructing. Not that you would find any job with that many hours as an instructor anyway.

What would you do if you where me? Include everything, even going to Europe.

[Megaton]

BA doesn't seem to think that there's a training risk involved with putting 200 hr ab-initios straight on to a jet type-rating!

[portsharbourflyer]

Further to Parson comments about time to command, remember in the corporate and night freight sector the hours flown per year can be quite low (ie: 200 to 300 per year), therefore low houred pilots are rarely employed because it simple takes too long for them to unfreeze the ATPL. Or this will limit the number of low houred pilots that can be employed due to the need to
keep a flow of pilots ready to take command within a few years.
The other factor is insurance policies, especially in the corporate sector, where the insurance company may specifiy minimum hours for crews.
So I will to an extent accept the comment that FI hours are not that relevant to airline flying, but the key thing is instructing does help develop spare capacity when flying, which is always useful. The other thing is instructing at the right location (ie: an airfield which has commercial operators based there) means that you don't have to make an effort to network, you will by default just meat people involved in commercial flying as a daily occurence. I will admit, flying instruction isn't a quick route to a job but it is a very enjoyable, also the more interesting jobs in the industry are certainly ones you can get with 700+ hours in the logbook.

[dartagnan]

...this is why BA asks for 500h multi crew before sending applications.:rolleyes:

[portsharbourflyer]

BA only take a very small number of low houred pilots from the integrated courses at Oxford and Jerez via a recommendation system, it is not a significant number. For those us that didn't do integraeted course then 500 hours multi crew time is required.

[usedtofly]

I have just worked my way through all 15 pages of this thread! It makes interesting reading and has moved in different directions from page 1 to page 15.

I just thought I'd add my two penneth to the debate!

Flying is a bit like gambling..................highly addictive! However I would say that just like gambling, DON'T GAMBLE MORE THAN YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE!

This industry is no different from any other one. No one owes you a job or a living. You take chances, take calculated risks and hope that it will all come good in the end.

Regarding the matter of paying for your own type rating, my view is it's your money, your choice but it won't guarantee you a job. As for becoming a flying instructor, my only worry here is that if everybody becomes an instructor then there is a real risk of having not enough students to teach!

The whole debate of 200 hr pilots versus 1000 hr pilots will go on for ever, it really depends on the recruitment policy of the company you wish to apply for quite frankly. Personally I do think that hours matter, the more you have the closer you are to command.

My story? At 41 I decided to study for my CPL. Qualified at the end of 1999 (self improver) and became an instructor in the spring of 2000. After 3 1/2 years instructing I got my first job with an air taxi operator and spent a year flying piston twins. After a couple of years break from commercial aviation I am now a T.P Captain and loving every single minute of it! I must confess that there were many occasions that I simply felt like giving up. It was a few years of hard work and sacrifice (still bringing up 2 children) but with the help and support of my wife, I got there in the end!

So if you are new to this caper or still trying to 'get that first job' I say take heart, you are not alone, we have all 'been there'. I also suggest that you try and be pragmatic and as flexible as possible. Your decision to fly for a living is a personal choice, no one is holding your arm behind your back and forcing you to do this. Simply wanting a job does not mean that you are automatically entitled to one! Do what ever you feel will help your cause, read these forums by all means, take whatever advice you feel is relevant to you. Just remember that we all have different views and opinions, everyone has an 'agenda' when they post here.

To finish up, I would probably not have entered this industry had I really known how tough it can be. But now I am here I would not trade it for anything else. I look forward to my work everyday and can not believe my luck, they pay me to fly!

Good luck guys

[boogie-nicey]

Usedtofly, that's quite inspirational to say the least but above all exhibits what many wannabes fail to see.... Not the "I started here" nor the "and ended up here" but all of the practical aspects in between. It really does seem somewhat essential to maintain a level headed opinion of both where you are at any stage of your aviation and career and where you're heading. If you make steady and meaningful progress then slowly but surely your chances improve of moving onto the next chapter. Perhaps that indicative of aviation where it's a game of simply improving your chances and not expecting a sure fire win-win scenario. If more people approached matters from this perspective rather than the zero-to-hero notion then we'd be in better shape.

While I'm on the subject another missing if not vital component of the flight training and aviation landscape here in JAA land is the absence of mentoring. By this I mean the old and wise guy who you'd come across on the weekend at the local airport who knows a thing or two about this game. That kind of "hold on there son", "steady" and other expressions of caution from time to time can really help guide so many wannabes. Such wise words could help dispel mythical notions or at least remove the blinkered view that many trying to enter the industry have of following a single track and missing other opportunities whilst moving along. Instead the closest we have to this is the nice and cuddly instructor types who though might mean well are usually too young to have the relevant experience or competing within the same industry anyway. In places like the USA where they have a much larger and embedded GA scene you'd come across these types left, right and centre. Anyway just a thought.... have a nice day :ok:

[as17]

What I would say on the 200/1000 hrs debate is that there is a big difference between handling a jet and a light twin/single. The 200 hrs guys may be more of a training risk, but in my opinion how successful someone will be in a TR is dependent a lot on personal ability. If you are good at multi tasking, have a large mental capacity, are a good manager and can learn new things quickly then you will have much better chances of completing a TR successfully. This goes for anyone starting on a jet for the first time, at the end of the day you are learning a lot of new things, and a relatively small proportion of the flying is done manually. The same goes for age. I know of a few airlines who do not like to take pilots over 30 without previous multi crew experience. I think this is unfair as in my experience it doesn't generally make much difference.
A good thing to have before attempting a TR for the first time is a JOC course. That way you are not completely thrown into the deep end and it will get you used to using the autopilot effectively.

[MikeAlphaBravo]

There are many people that I know of who have completed jet type ratings with 200 hrs without an issue. It really is a matter of individual ability, nothing hard about it, you just need the ability to learn.

[EjetSetter]

There are many people that I know of who have completed jet type ratings with 200 hrs without an issue. It really is a matter of individual ability, nothing hard about it, you just need the ability to learn.

And the money to pay for that easy pass.

[MikeAlphaBravo]

Well if you thought flight training was going to be cheap........ Anyway, its not about money, many low houred guys at my employer on a bond for their rating, no extra outlay for that "easy pass" :rolleyes:

[EjetSetter]

MAB, that's not an insult to flight training, I actually knew how expensive it would be. Trust me; I'm not complaining about that, if you read my post and interprited what I was trying to say; that "easy pass" is one that relates to an SSTR at FR.

[MrHorgy]

I resent that. I'm currently on a TR for Ryanair, and i'm working DAMN hard at it - that is why i'm passing. If I loafed off, then I wouldn't, simple as.

What your previous post implies is that unless you have god like hours flying SE, or tooling around the skies gathering hours, it must be some sort of miracle that people pass type ratings - I assure you this isn't the case.

[as17]

I can tell you that the FR type rating is certainly NOT an "easy pass". It is hard work and people do fail it. The fact that you have to pay your own way is even more of an incentive to work hard as catch up sessions are very expensive. Some of the quotes on this page are a classic example of people who don't have a clue what they are talking about mouthing off about FR.

Ejetsetter, you disgust me. yet another example of some :mad: undermining the hard work and professionalism of ryanair flight crew. The fact that everyone on this website seems to hate ryanair is one thing, I couldn't care less as I get paid well by them and enjoy my job, but when someone who I asume is a pilot and therefore should know better is belitteling my profession... I take offence. I worked hard but I sure as hell diddn't bribe my TRE for an "Easy Pass" on my skill test.

[EjetSetter]

Ejetsetter, you disgust me. yet another example of some :mad: undermining the hard work and professionalism of ryanair flight crew

That's an oxymoron. I respect that you feel you worked damn hard for the job; let's face it the lot of us do. But what kills me is that fact that a) you felt to pay for something that should be given to you for the amount all ready paid, and b) your person in the largest LCC. The majority of opinons both inside and outside the company feel that FR is a machine when it comes to the money earned on training. The needs of the many outwit the needs of the few.

Let me ask you that hard work you felt needed to be attained to get you SSTR, you could of I don't know FIed and known what hard work is. Students are that Murphy's Law of aviation; and to truely know how to survive it one must experience it.

You disgust me because you are a low-houred FR moron who just is happy to have his first jet.

I can tell you that the FR type rating is certainly NOT an "easy pass". It is hard work and people do fail it. The fact that you have to pay your own way is even more of an incentive to work hard as catch up sessions are very expensive

Yet I think most pilots feel both more obligated and even harder worked to know that a) they're getting paid during TR and b) its through the company.

What your previous post implies is that unless you have god like hours flying SE, or tooling around the skies gathering hours, it must be some sort of miracle that people pass type ratings - I assure you this isn't the case.

Not at all, what I'm saying is that unless you have God like flying hours you shouldn't have a jet. If you were a Twin-turbine I'd say cool, I understand that but a jet?

Thank God you don't live in the States.

By the way, with hard work anything is possible and I respect you feel this way, but as a FI who sat in a FR interview; I felt that was no hardwork at all.

[MrHorgy]

Might I ask why..

Not at all, what I'm saying is that unless you have God like flying hours you shouldn't have a jet. If you were a Twin-turbine I'd say cool, I understand that but a jet?

..you feel this?

I was more than happy to fly what I could get, and be paid to fly. I applied to CityJet, for example (a smaller operator) and was told I wasn't required, yet they call guys up with less hours than me begging them to come to interview, as they were integrated!? Doesn't make any sense. Ryanair (love them or hate them) looked at me as a candidate with a licence, who proved my skill in the relevant flight test. It didn't matter what the school's name was worth, or how much I paid. If they flew turboprops, or something else, i'd have still applied, because I tried to sow my seed far and wide to secure a job.

The jobs market in the USA and Europe I don't feel can be compared anymore. The UK has little to offer in the way of air taxi operations or anything that would allow someone a reasonable stepping stone up to the big time - the USA on the other hand has a developed 'path' to the legacy carriers. People in the UK regularly go into jet jobs with 200 hours, and perform adequately on type ratings, with FR or otherwise. The simple reality is if they didn't, they wouldn't pass, and the airlines would stop taking them on - this isn't happening.

Incidentally, Ryanair don't actually have their own flight school, are you telling us that all pilots from CAE or SAS have easy passes in TR exams? You won't make friends that way, they are major training establishments!

[CarbHeatIn]

Thank God you don't live in the States.

Thank God I don't live in the States where the equivalent salary for a year 1 f/o at a regional carrier is less than 1/3 of what it is here.

Regional pilots in the US are getting screwed (and selling out the profession) far more than Ryanair pilots.

I'm not a fan of Ryanair in the slightest.

[shaun ryder]

I have to agree with the hours thing though.

Starting on an airliner with minimum hours used to be only for a select few. The good old boys who were sponsored in days gone by or whatever. Not any Tom Dick or Herbert who has the financial backing just to fulfill their 'dream'. I am a firm believer in that people should serve an apprenticeship in aviation. If you want to pay your way in thats fine, some people are never going to agree with it. Just have a look at it from the other side of the fence Horgy etal, before passing opinions on the merits of more experienced wannabees than yourselves. Many are from the camp which built up hours teaching PPL/CPL & IR and then went onto fly charter & TPs etc. You will find that the majority of the Captains you are going to share the flight deck with will also come from similair backgrounds, as do the guys that interview you. I have to say that I would have to think twice about letting my wife and kids get in a PA28 with a 200hour pilot. But its not the same as an airliner with a 200hr hotshot at the yoke you say? I know! and hopefully the skipper is switched on! Think about it. It may go some way to explain why people have opinions on low hour cadets handling an 80 ton aircraft with very limited aviation backgrounds. Limited or no real experience of real world conditions, out of the safe pat me on the back and try again training environment.

'I know who I would rather fly with', an opinion shared by nearly every other line Captain you meet when the subject pops into conversation. Newbees with zero hours and no commercial experience, bar a small minority are considered hard work on the flight deck. Fact!

With things the way they are in the job market now, having hours from a good aviation background are only going to help you. Either that or pay someone for a job and bypass all that valuable experience. Certainly dont waste time twiddling your thumbs waiting for those cvs to be read, be proactive and do the FI rating, fly a tug etc. You will always have more respect, if not more hours than the next man.

[Megaton]

The majority of capts in my company were either sponsored cadets or ex-mil. Very, very few are ex-instructors. Furthermore, the majority of our TRIs/TREs are ex-cadets and, on my particular fleet, our Training Standard Captains are ex-cadets so I think the broad-brush statements like:
You will find that the majority of the Captains you are going to share the flight deck with will also come from similair backgrounds, as do the guys that interview you.
can be extremely misleading.
Furthermore It may go some way to explain why people have opinions on low hour cadets handling an 80 ton aircraft with very limited aviation backgrounds. Limited or no real experience of real world conditions, doesn't really hold much water since this applies to many of the F/Os in BA and our passenger figures are (amazingly I admit) very good.
And finally, before anyone suggests I have some axe to grind, I built time on SEPs before getting a job on TPs then moving to jets.

[shaun ryder]

Is that Ham Phisted of BA fame again? Bar BA as mentioned in previous post quote 'sponsored in days gone by' you will find that most Captains etc in most 'other':yuk: airlines apart from yours come from similair backgrounds. Accepted that you have worked elsewhere apart from Gods airline, your post reads just as biased as the rest Nigel.

[Megaton]

Bar BA and its 3000+ pilots! Very representative :)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There's nowt wrong with cadets. I like flying with them.

This debate is of the same level of interest as the Modular vs Integrated. So lets give it a rest fellas.

[Megaton]

Agreed. :)

[Re-Heat]

Is that Ham Phisted of BA fame again? Bar BA as mentioned in previous post quote 'sponsored in days gone by' you will find that most Captains etc in most 'other' airlines apart from yours come from similair backgrounds. Accepted that you have worked elsewhere apart from Gods airline, your post reads just as biased as the rest Nigel.
Except that the BA workforce represents just under half of active UK pilots, so cannot be dismissed as biased when it is half the sample...

[shaun ryder]

Ok then, it sounds like you are saying that half of the UK airline pilot workforce started out as a cadet. Am I right? This being someone who went straight from training and into airline employment. We are not talking ex RAF top guns now are we? Simply the bare minimum hours with the necessary licence and ratings. i.e green as grass to jet. It would be interesting to see whether a poll would back up this theory.... Nothing against cadets either!

Quote to your hearts content!

[CarbHeatIn]

We are not talking ex RAF top guns now are we?

It could just as easily be argued that flying a fast jet in the military is not good preparation for a career as an airline pilot.

I think what BA does very well is integrate a wide array of backgrounds and experiences into its pilot body, whether that be low hours guys directly from Oxford, guys from TPs, guys already on type, guys from the military etc etc. They all bring something different to the party.

[EjetSetter]

Mr. Horgy I feel this due to their needs to be a progression before one goes to 400 kph. With a great powerful aircraft comes great responsibility and one needs to have the 1000 hrs to turely understand the power. Plus for you it gives you a more credible CV, meaning more options, meaning more possibility for a PTR.

Now for Carbheatin's comments; most airlines you speak about are turbo-prop ops who most American pilots know hire low-houred skippers. Plus for all pilots the first year is difficult then it improves after that.

[shaun ryder]

I have to laugh Carb heat, maybe it is maybe it is'nt. Fast jets and fresh meat out of OAT, not comparible.

[saffron]

Agree with SR, to be selected for fast jet training in RAF means you are well above most in aptitude(not ex RAF myself).The selection at OAT is not & could not be so stringent.They do not compare.Had a mate who graduated from OAT in 2001,got a job eventually(years later)he just kept plugging away,flight instruction etc.

[CarbHeatIn]

I'm not comparing them, just not sure to what degree the competencies or characteristics of a good fast jet pilot compare to those of a good airline pilot. Interestingly enough, it is stated in the Netjets thread (Bizjet forum) that there is a higher failure rate for command upgrade candidates with an RAF background than for candidates with a general aviation background.

[shaun ryder]

There was a headline once in the Sunday Sport, apparently a double decker bus was spotted on the moon. Did you ever read that?

[CarbHeatIn]

I missed that. Must have been an ex "Fast Land Rover" driver. I hope you didn't stain your uniform

[tommoutrie]

chaps/esses

getting your first job is a process. Find ways to fly other peoples planes - if you are sitting there saying "there are no jobs" and at the same time dont know the names of all the aerial photographic, banner towing, para dropping, glider towing, etc organisations then you are not putting in the effort that justifies spending the money on your licence. Its good to get a flying instruction rating, especially at the moment because you can get paid quite well to do it, but be aware that you dont teach people to fly so that you can accumulate hours. You do it to help people learn to fly and you will be crap at it if you think it simply fills your log book.
Some people do get lucky, some people get jobs through friends and family, but thats not how I did it and its not how most of the guys I know did it. A good friend of mine is an actor. He and I both have jobs that many other people would really like to have and both of us have scraped and clawed our way into these careers. He did years of community type theatre, I did almost 9000 take-offs and landing pulling gliders into the sky.
I read every single CV that I am sent and I reply if I can even if I can't offer anything. I towed gliders for 3 years before I got my CPL in 2000 and got my first job in 2004 (which cost me more to get to than I earned). I'm now fleet manager of a business jet company with 6 aircraft and 4 more due this quarter.
Its a great job, its worth wading through a lot of **** for, and I wish everyone that's trying to make it work out the very best of luck. I'll try to help specific problems but please dont bombard me - fairly busy nowadays..

[beckycarlton]

hey guys.... I am invited to join interview with Aviators Trading ARC.
Anyone made any experience with them.
It seems, they have found a Employer for me....crazy...I have been looking for a Job and no one wanted me with my low hours... and they seem to have made it possible for me...

does anyone know them??? www.aviators-trading.com

thanks guys...

cheers

ps. good luck to everyone with a passion for flying

[VNA Lotus]

is it an advert ? b'cause this is the second similar post I'm seeing...

[MrHorgy]

Yeah, look like Agency crock to me.

[beckycarlton]

No it isnt... I was asking if anyone had experience with them...?? sorry for putting the website here...but maybe some people are searching for jobs like I do... and maybe they have known this company... but thanks anyways for NO HELP here....:D:D

[RodJET]

@becky:

take it easy with the folks here. Dont get angry:=

Yeah, I know the company. I got a job through them.
At that time, they had a different logo and not so professional.
But see for yourself. And remember, NO ADDS here!!!:)

[Vito Corleone]

No need for your smartarse condescending comments Pilotmike.

[beckycarlton]

ähm...okay...whatever mikeyboy...
start reading the content instead of bubbling hot air out of ya.

I said, I find it sad that you guys think I am a agency or stuff...:( even if it would have taken a week to answer me...no worries.

but dont look down on me cause i ask a question and place the website here...
but thanks for the good luck...same to you.

@RodJET

thanks for the info!!! feel way better now... could you give me some info?

[RodJET]

@ becky

well I am now going to get my second placement for free. Usualy the service is so, that you sign the first contract with all t&c´s and the second placement with Aviators Trading ARC is for free...

but as I know now, there will be a community for Aviators Trading ARC to be opend by a member on pprune.

So hopefully we meet there and you can get mor information.

cheers

[FlyingApe]

I passed my CPL I/R in 2000, MCC in 2001 then Sept 11 happened.... But I kept on flying ( group ownership is a wonderful thing).

I worked full time in another industry, and on my days off I became a part time flying instructor,... and I kept on flying.

I sent out hundreds of CV's and wrote hundreds of letters, and made hundreds of phone calls.

Then the call came... and I missed it 'cause I was working and my phone was off, so I missed out on the interview slot.

But I kept on pestering them, and eventually got an interview ( in the middle of a booked holiday which cost me over £1000 to re-arrange).

But I got a job in the end, and over six and a half years after I "passed my CPL tirst time with over 90% in my written exams".

I am now flying a jet, and I love it!

Was it worth the cost, effort and broken relationships? ...well the jury is still out on that one - ask me in 10 years.

However, I'm sure all my "life" experiences will make me a better Captain when I get to the coveted Left Seat. - More so than walking out of an ab-initio course with 200 hrs, and straight into the RHS of a jet. .... At least I hope so!;)

[AIR SEYCHELLES 787]

Just to say something thats relevent to the original question on tis thread (at least i think it is)...The CTC ATP scheme is open again for applications.

[bjkeates]

However, I'm sure all my "life" experiences will make me a better Captain when I get to the coveted Left Seat. - More so than walking out of an ab-initio course with 200 hrs, and straight into the RHS of a jet.

Could you possibly expand on this? I'm interested to know why you think writing lots of letters, becoming a part time FI and having a relationship break up would make you a better captain than someone who has done a full time ab-initio course. At the moment I can't see a great amount of merit in that statement.

[averagepilot]

Its really funny reading all your guys comments, i'm taking the general assumption that most people replying on this thread are european based.

In Australia unless your one of the very very lucky ones, who get a rare sponsership with QF, you are bound to GA for the first couple of years of your aviation life, if you tried to tell an Australian GA pilot that your spent your 40k have approx 200hrs, been waiting 6 months for an Airline job, they would just laugh at you, get an instructor who has been plugging away at it for a couple of years with over 1000hrs instructional time on a bad day, they would just punch you in the face. :}

[4engines4longhaul]

Good morning all.
I started flying in the mid eighties, and came through the "self-improver" route, an expression i have always been uncomfortable with. In the early days of hours building things were tough but not unbearable. I would say that the 4 months living in a minging caravan, towing gliders for 30 quid a week was the lowest point, but it got me nearly 300 hours which led to a slightly less unpalatable job and so on.
Last weekend i returned to the airfield where my career started with PPL and later 2 years instructing, and got to meet the latest group of future airline pilots. Upon hearing i was now a Captain on the 340 for a UK carrier, i was bombarded with the usual questions, which i was reassured to found out are exactly the same as 20 years ago. Not long after my PPL i was working at the club de-icing the cessna's at 7 in the morning etc. and met a senior skipper with Brittania. His advice? Take all the s$$t thrown at you, beg, borrow, or steal any flying you can. Moody charters, glider towing, re-fueling, anything that enables you to make contact with people further up the food tree.
I naturally passed this advice on, only to be met with a series of aghast looks from 4 of these guys, but one gentleman nodding wisely. I came away a couple of pints later with a feeling that everyone wants everything NOW. Sadly, aviation doesn't work that way, and never will as long as the sun rises in the East. I detect a feeling that some trainees expect to move straight onto a nice shiny 320 with 200 hours on a PA28 and all is well, and that a turboprop out of some 2nd tier airport is somehow below them. I can tell you here and now that that attitude will be detected early on, to the detrement of your career. The one gentleman who was nodding with me, is probably as we speak cleaning a hangar floor somewhere and making tea for the engineers, and will quite likely be sitting next to me at work 10 years from now. I look forward to it.
Brgds

[r44flyer]

4engines4longhaul... wise words indeed my friend.

I am shortly to be embarking on such a journey. ATPL studies commence imminently along with hour building and I'm arranging a job in ground ops to keep things ticking over until I get my instructor ticket. After that, who knows what will come along, advanced instruction and air taxi/charter sounds good to me. :ok:

[4engines4longhaul]

r44flyer
The very best of luck to you. Ops/crewing/ramp are all excellent breeding grounds for the next generation. I would guard against thinking now that air taxi is as far as you want to go. Aim as far as you can, but always enjoy what you have. See you in a few years

[pa30]

why work when u can fly!
I was an Agpilot for 25 years,round flat and turbine,as some agpilots can read & some can write not many can do both simultaneously.. then "upgraded" to Twotters for next 3000hours then got to old.

[VR_90]

I haven't even branched out as far as the training yet and as such remain in high school doing what I can....
However, there is one snag in the form of finance.
You seem to be one who has recently finished training so could you tell me how you managed to pay in?

Regards.

[skyhigher]

the key to financing:

beg, borrow, steal (well, thats optional and risky!) ,save!

[VNA Lotus]

Or buy a lottery ticket! :} well some people win...

[VR_90]

ah wise words there "beg borrow steal" not the first time av heard that and it certainly won't be the last.

[EasternYank]

OK ... be nice as I'm new to this forum. I need suggestions and/or advice.

How about non-flying jobs overseas ?? I'm retired and have been offered employment as a FO at 2 US Regionals. I only have 550 TT (85 ME and a RJ jet transition course) so its regional flying or nothing here in the states and after reading about the QOL and pay at the regionals, I'm re-thinking the flying part and looking into dispatching or similar. I want to travel, kids are grown, but if overseas, would want a gig where I could come home occasionally. Any suggestions ??

[mlee]

Sell a body part, that’s how I financed my ME IR!!

Only joking, it crossed my mind though!!

[Always Moving]

Yank! you should be thankful that your kids are grown! I do not see how could you raise a family for 25kUSDa year. So like I said be thankful that you were born earlier and with the current maniac in the house is not going to get better.

And you said you want to fly for free...hmm I do not see it. But if I were you I would call NetJets or one of the new fractionals.

With salaries going down, if this multi crew licence BS does not work I would like to see the faces of HR manager telling CEO's that they going to have a 300% increase in Salaries or slow down operations LOL. Because after there is no more monkeys to pay peanuts and sit of the FO seat......

Somebody said there is a shortage of pilots? there IS a shortage of decent paid jobs! pay them good, you will start seeing pilot creping out of all kinds of places, do not sell me the multicrew :mad:

[KB MIKE ALPHA]

im looking for the ATC jobs around the world. i have an Aerodrome and Approach Procedural license. 5 years experience with Scheduled IFR and VFR also the Training school:rolleyes:

[bjkeates]

Ha ha ha!! You have WAAAY too much time on your hands! :D

[dartagnan]

so where are the jobs?

I may find some jobs deep in africa, to fly single pistons, but who want to do that? what's the point to have 2000h single piston engine, and come back 3-5 years later just to discover that airlines start to turn you down cuz you are too old!!!(I know a guy with over 3000h, has been turned down cuz he had too many hours on piston engine)

if these airlines don't give us a chance , I am not surprised why they have to beg now for captains...

Not everyone can accept these low paid jobs with no futur(for family reason,...)...now you and me understand why so many guys try to go directly to jets.

[JRPILOTO]

Welcome to Aviation ;; Join the "Crowd". I'm also another one of those Pilots; that spent $68 Grand in training, and I'm still searching for a job;; and paying every single hour of Flight Time, and had to turn to "Trucking"
in the U.S.A to be able to make at least $55 Grand a year to survive and to continue paying my flight time. S_ _ T, I could not even get a job in
"Banner Towing"........You have to be somebody's Buddy to get in.
But they do not tell you that in "Flight School" when you are "Blowing" all your "Life Savings". **Good Luck "Fellow Pilot"...........

[JRPILOTO]

Hi: Fellow Pilots; Anyone out there Knows; if there is a Company that handles "Ferry flights" (single engine)
mostly;even, if it its in a "Third World" country??? Thanks:}:ugh:

[kecco]

hello guys

i m really going crazy looking for a job does anybody knows which company are looking for pilot with low hours TT i m ready to go everywhere to work i don t care i just want to fly for a company thanks in advance for all your answer

[VNA Lotus]

kecco, are you in USA ?
in this case, why don't you become a CFI and build hours, then go to Regionals airlines ? that's the classic way in USA isn't it ?

[ScottCD]

Man, who are you?

I am currently 33 yrs old, I work my arse off in I.T, I pay for my own training, for which i have just 4.9 hours so far, and want to be an airline pilot. I will complete my CPL (with no IFR initially) and go to the kimberleys, in NW Australia. I dont want to hear that things cant be done in this life. Stop 'ur god damn whinging that other people get everything and you get nothing. You want to be a pilot bad enough, then you will fly on the crappiest pay, live in a tent, and log as many hours as you can. Get to know people. Its not what you know, it's who you know. :cool:

[VNA Lotus]

Just my thoughts:

As we know, becoming an airline pilot in Europe or USA is not the same thing.

What I mean...

I don't like very much the way, sorry, the ways to become a pilot in Europe. ( I am in Europe by the way!!)
There are inequalities.

You can start your career at 19 y/o in a 320/737 thanks to CTC, Daddy, Chance, TR paid etc
Or you can work very very hard, towing gliders, instruction, ramp, etc for a few years than maybe start on a Beech, then ATR and 320/737 at 35 y/o.


Honestly I like the way in USA. It is not easy, it is not the best maybe, but it is the same for most pilots:
CPL/IR then CFI, CFII, Regionals arlines and Majors.
You can't go to Majors without passing by Regionals, you can't go Regionals
without thousands hours.
IMO, it is a logical and progressive way. I don't say the best but logical.
You can't drive bus/truck if you don't know driving cars!

So in USA I guess they do not denigrate the job FI as I can see on this forum. I am sure that it is a job very respected.

In Europe some people who succeded as an airline pilot at 20 Y/O (for instance!) will dare to tell "no don't do FI, it is waste of time, 320/737 it is better, single engine hours are nothing etc etc "

I assume those guys forgot they've learned to fly thanks to a FI...that's sad.

So in Europe, there is a debate for anything! debates without truth...

FI is bad/FI is good
Good to build up hours/ Not good to have too many single engine hours
Type rating ?? / NO type rating ? (in usa you don't pay it...)

etc

c'est la vie

[nicholasblonde]

It's true that in the US we have a lot more equal system...anyone can get a CFI (many schools will pay for the CFI license)...and anyone can get a job flight instructing...and anyone can get a job at a regional after that, flying a jet in most cases (not too many tprops left out there).

It's so funny it was the Euro authorities who grounded a US flightcrew in Germany because we used to not require the FO to have a type...only company FO training...so then the ICAO forced the US to start issuing "SIC type ratings" to our FOs...funny thing is there isn't a single FO on anything bigger than a CRJ/ERJ that doesn't have well over 1500 hours and 1000 hours PIC jet time. And the EU has countless 200 hour cadets flying 737s and A320s....I understand your training is more rigorous, but at least over here you can't buy a job on a 737 or A320 just b/c dad has $$$.

[dartagnan]

yes, in the USA it is more "fair", but in the other hand, the US government make fun of US pilots (and US citizen), high tax to drop bomb on irak, no unemployment benefits except foodstamps, no retirement except your K401 ripoff (kind of saving account managed by banks),racism,very low level of social life with many murders, hijacks, crimes, holdups,drugs,kidnapping,low pay salary, etc...

so is it really better in the USA?when you see people at 75 still working, or having 2-3 jobs to survive or not having time to take care of their kids who don't see anything better to do than to carry gun at school to shot their friends!.

Capitalist countries just see in the short term, but what about in the next 20 years?

[woodcoc2000]

dartagnan; you paint a bad picture of the usa. Its not the USA i know and believe me when i say that i know better than most. There is something to be said of a system where people have to work their way up as is the case with USA and Canada for instance. It is rare in these 2 countries for people to pay for their own type rating and therefore get ahead because they have access to more money. sounds like a fair system to me..

[nuclear weapon]

wdc2000 couldn't have put it any better having spent about thirteen years in the UK myself and visited other countries during this time. I will have to say that a welfare state like they have in most European countries is not the best. As far as I am concerned it kills creativity and in extreme cases encourages laziness.

I never claimed a penny in welfare but have lots of friends that did some of them can barely stand on thier own two feet as the system in the UK has been tightened up. I spent the best part of 43k pounds on training and completed in 2006 and am currently on a type rating course which I am not paying for all I had to do was relocate. Good luck guys.

[tunalic2]

So congratulations Nuclear you found where all the jobs have gone and bagged one of them, well done!:ok:

Does this mean this thread can close now?

[paperplane]

You people have it tough in the US.
How about joining Emirates or Etihad? That's where FJ pilots go after logging the minimum hours.

[Air1980]

And look at the c?@p you have to put up with in Europe just to get that job. No real life flying experience counts; just archaic old-school written tests, and medical licensing requirements from WWI (oh, and don't forget to book that examination slot 4 years in advance and pay some more money to the government to have that honour extended to you.....)

Hours and flying experience count, not being able to rattle off why a hurricane forms or the square root of an RB211 on a Monday with an OAT of 4C. Ever wonder why Euro airlines require 3 days of tests just to get that job, making up for something are we chaps?

In short you will be a much better, learned and wisened pilot if you fly CFI/Cargo and then Regional to Major. Sure times will be hard, but you are a better pilot for it and will not have to turn the Autopilot on at 500' in the climb!

'nuff said.

[Nichibei Aviation]

There are quite a few turboprop operators in Africa paying out good salaries in USD. The cost of living there is a joke and you don't pay taxes.
The only risk you may face is that they could kill you for the 300 bucks you have in your pocket.

But it's certainly worth the adventure and you won't be begging for good weather.

Working in the USA is great.
You pay far less taxes than in Europe and your airline takes care of your medical insurance. Try the regional carriers, they are taking any candidates with a minimum experience.

This is for Colgan Air:
To be considered for a First Officer position, you must meet the following requirements:
• Possess a High School diploma or GED.
• Valid driver's license.
• Commercial License or Air Transport Pilot Certificate.
• 600 Hours Total Time.
• 100 multi-engine
• Multi-Engine Current & Instrument Current
• Currently hold a FAA First Class Medical Certificate
• Ability to work with the public and under stressful conditions.
• Must be able and willing to relocate to assigned bases.
• Be willing to accept and work with changes in scheduling, including work on
holidays and weekends.
• Must be a U.S. Citizen or have authorization to work in the U.S. as defined
in the Immigrations Act of 1986


Oh and don't be surprised by the multi-engine time requirements.
Under FAA you can log hours as P1 and P2 in VFR on MEP.

The mood in the cockpits in USA is not the same as in Europe where every flying day with a grumpy captain takes you closer to commiting suicide.

[dartagnan]

Must be a U.S. Citizen or have authorization to work in the U.S. as defined
in the Immigrations Act of 1986


not for us!

[dartagnan]

cuz salaries are too low, and you don't make a living in aviation there.
like nichibi says, better to see in Africa.
it pays much better.

[Fly_Gurl]

Forgive me if I am a small country silly girl (I am from New Zealand) but I thought the way you had to start out was with scenic, parachuting jobs etc...... I never saw another way to it, I graduated with my CPL and IR and I expect to be doing the "small jobs" for the next 3 - 5 years...is it different overseas, can you just walk into an airline job? I have a friend whos father is a captain in the 777's for the main airline in NZ and he hasn't even got a job in an airline!

[EjetSetter]

Flygirl in Europe due to little to none GA most pilots can get to a airline job with 200 hours. For most students this is the best option, I didn't do it that way and became a CFI; now I'm flying high with a TR being paid for by the company.

[Fly_Gurl]

Ohh maybe I should move then hahaha!

[dartagnan]

if you have a blue card (the EU green card, still not in application, but it is an idea to make an EU immigration office)

[css]

I know what you are talking about Vito, it seems that some people are in the right place at the right time (or they know people..) and progress faster than others. I have been involved in Aviation directly for the last 14 years, and not much has changed on that front. However what I am noticing is that the attitude of the younger pilots is.
I own and operate a small Skydiving operation in North Queensland, Australia and over the last 3-4 years it has become harder to find a pilot to fill the position that I offer. Granted we do not pay a great deal however the hours that are on offer here for the right person are not to be sneezed at. My pilot would gain valuable experience and an additional 400-500 hours a year, this in effect would save a low-time pilot an astronomical amount of money in terms of hire of an aircraft to build hours. I however find it increasingly difficult to find a pilot who would like to take on the challenge of flying in the Skydiving Industry.
I unfortunately cannot afford to pay a lot of money as the Skydiving Industry cannot afford to charge what it likes in a tight fiscal economy. Gone are the glory days for the Industry and we are finding it (like most other Aviation Industry compatriates) somewhat difficult to survive. I myself have to work additional jobs to ensure that I have enough money to live and do the things that I want to do. I am not afraid of hard work, long hours and a little bit of effort along the way to achieving a goal. It seems that the new breed of pilot does just wants it all handed to them without the effort that has been warranted in the past.
2 of our former pilots now work for Cathay on 747's and I could not be more proud in being part of their journey on the way to the goal. Both of those former pilots are people who did the hard yards, one of them working on a cattle property for many years to help build up his time and experienceas a pilot. He is now one of the most rounded, experienced and capable pilots who I have had the pleasure of employing. I am happy to be a small stepping stone on the way to someone's dream job.
I have had people apply for my current position and offer to fly for free ( I do pay my pilots as much as I can without putting the business under any undue financial strain) and others call to tell me I should be ashamed for not paying my pilots $50000 for their first Aviation Job. I am amazed that people would have the gall to phone me to try and abuse me for providing an opportunity to a low-time pilot to build hours and experience.
I tend to employ people on the basis that they are a good person and easy to get along with, hours and experience are secondary in my consideration to employ a pilot. It seems every year there are more and more people that I say no to because they possess the wrong characteristics that I deem essential in Aviation. People with a large ego, "me-centric" people and people who believe that they are owed something by the world all seem to make the wrong decisions when the proverbial "s#@t hits the fan" situation arises in Aviation. I do not wish to employ a pilot who will put me or my clients at risk.
I believe that there are jobs out there as long as pilots are prepared to make some small sacrifices and travel to where they can gleen information, experience and hours.
I, as a skydiver had invested a simular amount of money into achieving my Instructor ratings ($50000) before I could work in the Industry and I am still earning as much as I was 8 years ago, even though the cost of everything has increased by as much as 15-20% over the same period.
I try to be as fair and offer incentives and help my pilots along as much as possible (free airfares home, bonuses, rental assistance etc.) but I still have trouble finding pilots.
I hope you find employment in the not-too-distant future, and your faith in the Aviation Industry is restored. I also hope that you have the opportunity in the future to help out a low-time pilot to achieve their dream job as well.
Best of luck for the future.

[sidtheesexist]

CSS - great post - couldn't agree more sir/madam :ok:

[HF3000]

css - you can stare at yourself in the mirror and self-justify all you like but the fact is that you and the rest of the GA industry have been ripping off pilots for years - just because you can.

And because you guys have destroyed the GA piloting industry, guess what - the kids aren't learning to fly any more.

You say you can't afford to pay your pilots properly? Does that mean you don't maintain your aircraft properly? Your pilots should be just as essential an element of your cost of doing business.

You've created the mess you are in - no sympathy at all.

[Always Moving]

Kids now think they deserve everything and NOW.

HF3000. You are right, MAY BE....

There are good and bad people everywhere, but you do not know CSS, it is a bit arrogant talking like that about this chap!

[css]

I thank Always Moving for his comments. I have to agree with his point about not making a general assumption. Just because a certain percentage of the Industry (even if it is a majority) treats their pilots with little or no respect, it is important to get the facts before making such a broad statement.
I know that there is an underlying assumption that everyone in the Skydiving Industry flies around in trashy aircraft, scrimps on the maintenance, and pays and treats their pilots like dirt...however it is not completely true.
If the whole world was to make broad assumptions, then it would assume that by looking at the Leader of the USA, the assumption would be that every one of the 300 Million people in that country are War-Mongers who are concerned for nothing except oil, money and power. I personally can tell you that this is not true.
Please be careful when making assumptions because we all know "Assumption is the mother of all f**k-ups"

[MrHorgy]

css - Where were you when I was looking for a job - I can't think of anything i'd like to do more than move to OZ for a couple of years to build up my experienfce throwing people out of an aircraft!

[HF3000]

I can't think of any other profession (except perhaps the Arts!) which requires a few years of working for nothing (or next-to-nothing) to gain experience once qualified in the profession. It should be the responsibility of the industry to provide "graduate" jobs at appropriate pay and conditions just like any other industry.

Supply and demand has made it possible in this country for GA employers to exploit pilots in need of experience - that doesn't make it right. It also makes a career in GA (if you don't want to fly for an airline) a poor one.

But the supply and demand equation has recently changed - GA can't get the pilots they need for the peanuts they have been paying. I say good! The solution is to pay proper wages. If that means it costs an extra couple of bucks to go skydiving, so be it!

[vmx]

You know, GA is a bit like the retail industry - it relies on a constant turnover of people who start a small business with dreams (often unrealistic) of success and then gradually go broke - only to have another small retailer spring up in the exact same place with the same business model.

Flying schools rely on kids with dreams and $$ to spend, and those pilots who do stick around after training rely on entry-level GA operators with dreams of business success to help build their hours.

[Dihaz]

CSS, well said. Id work for you!

[galley_operator]

keep trying for other airlines ...like in middle east and far east ..they all keep looking for ppl for the jobs

this few airlines need ppl . emirates, etihad, Qatar airways, air asia, and singapore airlines

try to send your resume to this few company i'm sure you will get the job if u dont mind to base in middle eat and far east ..

dont give up...:ok:

[WMB]

Just a short positive note, it has been one year since i finished my MCC course, and thankfully i have now started training with Air Baltic on the Fokker F50. It felt like the longest year of my life, and filled with highs and lows, but i kept going, and finally am employed. Yes AB are slow at contacting you, and yes it is cold in Latvia, but where else is a low hour guy getting a paid type raying, with accomodation and pay? Just don't give up your trun will come:ok:

[GLYCOREX]

Congratulations to you!:D

I know that Air Baltic have some 737!

I wonder how the market for pilots is today if you don’t have been working as a pilot but if you now have the TR for Boeing 737 300-900 and a total flight time around 1500 hrs?

There is no problem for me to relocate, it’s OK for me to find a job anywhere around this world and of course I want a salary to pay for my living.

I should also be very grateful if someone have links for these companys. I prefer to send my application as an attached file instead of be infront of my computer a couple of hours on line just to fill in the information just for one company.

BRGDS:ok:

[Crescentpirate]

It seems even if you ace everything on your tests and get amazing grades...your still going to struggle finding a job.

If you say didn't have A-levels and gained your degrees however by an alternative university route AND aced your tests i guess you dont have a chance do you?

The thing is, optimism a side, i was born to be a pilot and if any employer said to me "you are not good enough" i would prove him wrong.
The hardest thing i think is just knowing how to academically attack this situation

[NAL]

Advice on the EU job market.

Because of personal reasons, I am considering going back to EU. However, I am 37 and with my kind of experience + age, I have so far supposed that I would be unemployable to a European airline. Therefore I haven’t really followed the European job market very carefully for the past years. I have been in the African charter business for 4 years. I have about 3000 h TT incl. more than 1000 h twin, but no jet time. I hold JAA ATPL(f) + IR.

I am willing to go anywhere in the EU. I have the funds to buy a type rating, but wouldn’t mind flying turboprops for the last part of my carrier if I should get the chance up there.

Anyone knowing the situation in EU who could give me a bit of advice: Is it worth the money to buy a TR in my age and in that case what kind of TR should I consider? Besides, what kind of jobs should I look for with my hours and age?

Some of you may wonder why I don’t just send my CV to a thousand companies in Europe and see what happens. That might be the next step, but by now I am just in the first stage of considering the idea and I would like a bit of advice to focus my planning.

Any serious feedback is highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[six-sixty]

NAL, assuming you've got EU working rights Flybe are well worth a look. Decent employer, they definitely hire people with your sort of profile, and with your hours a command wouldn't be far off. You wouldn't have to pay for a TR either.

[mcdipity]

What's a CV??

[3Greens]

"whats a cv?"

you call it a resume i believe.

[timzsta]

Today's Flight International has quite a thick recruitment section. Of note BA are advertising. This will open up opportunities further down the food chain for the rest of us. Certainly by the second half of this year I can see quite a lot of the smaller operators having to recruit.

[Rosiemoto]

http://jobsearch.about.com/od/curriculumvitae/Curriculum_Vitae.htm

Curriculum Vitae

The story of your life

[Running On Empty]

Would love to meet those you talk about whose fathers have got them a job. My family is one of an entirely aviation background. If anything this has seemed to serve against me. I think the amount of money people spend seems to to encourage them to set their sights a little too high. I'd suggest people bite the bulllet and start off right at the bottom even in an administrative capacity. £40k? You were lucky, I've spent double that.

[African Drunk]

I qualified in September 2000 from the modular route. I spent 6 months sending cv's to all in sight with no luck. I decided to start improving my cv and got a FI rating and then spent 2 months speaking to every school in the uk and beyond. The only job I found was for a charity flying club that paid fuel so I spent all summer driving 1.5 hours each way and getting pocket money from my GF. After 9/11 and with the winter coming I started applying to schools abroad and got a job in africa this built up my hours and I got experience commercial instructing for 9 months I then went around africa getting Pilot assistant jobs which led to flying as a pilot on light twins and turboprops. I then returned to uk and started the cv game again. While doing this I got a multi and instrument instructor rating to get some better instruction. I then spent a year working for 5 flying schools(including the charity) picking more MEP time. I then got a call from a friend who had para dropping work on a turbine in the US, only for food, beer and a tent no pay. Did this for 2 months then a cv paid off and was offered a air taxi job. Only problem got the message 2 weeks late. When I got there the job was gone. But while there ran into a guy from a IR school who needed IR instructors and I had all the ticks. Did that for 2 years at the same time I did PA work on any jet/turbine or MEP that I could. I also did groundschool on a TRTO. I also went back to the bank again and got a loan for my CRE/IRR.

Things picked up a guy I flew with a PA was involved with a start up bizjet company and they needed someone with a training/examining background. I flew jets there and when we needed a AOC got involved in writing it. This led to involvement with my present company. I now fly a G550 and HS125 it has taken 10 years and I pay off my last bank loan in 3 years.

So good luck never stop improving your ratings and experience, never turn down an opportunity as a PA and if you do the jobs no one else wants you could find you become one of the only people with the qualifications and experience.

[Always Moving]

African Drunk,

I agree with you.... BUT GET PAID.
If you do not get paid or work for peanuts, I will not want to hear you bitching about the low paying jobs later down the career.
I met many people that they will whore themselves now and then later on say "I can not believe how little they are paying...." It is because of your whoring around for free you dumb Fu:mad:ck!

[timzsta]

I think they call it Walmart over there...

[Brainstorm]

People like Always Moving make me laugh. Another one of those "if only" people i.e. if only people wouldn't work for free, if only people would not pay for TRs, if only people would not pay for line training....and on it goes.

I am afraid this business is highly competitive, that is the nature of the game. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[tommoutrie]

In aviation, organisations do not pay pilots according to worth or ability. They pay according to profitability. If you fly a 747 you are responsible for helping a company turn over a fortune and if they stay in business they are probably profitable so they pay the pilots well. If you fly for a gliding club or a struggling aerial survey company you can't help the company make a pile of cash - all you can do is help them scrape by. The payment you get are the hours in your logbook and the future value of those hours. Flying piston twins around public transport single pilot is one of the most demanding, pressured, and risky flying jobs you can have but you get paid a pittance because the company you work for doesnt turn over much money and pilots accept that. Its good fun though and you get to scare the crap out of yourself in icing and when its much too windy to land and no-one gets to know about it but you and you learn so much from it!
Buying a type rating can sometimes help you leapfrog some of the stages that people go through in flying but it can't buy you the experience you would have got by instructing at every level; instructing, towing gliders, ferry flying, and all the other badly paid jobs.

Work for free if you have to because that gets you the jobs that are paid. Pay for a type rating if you want to but bear in mind that there are no guarantees. Also bear in mind that its extremely rare to fail a type rating - you pay for it and you pass and companies are well aware that the only hurdle involved in getting a type rating is the money. The best you can hope for by paying for a type rating is that you will enhance your chances of being invited to interview and that gives you the chance to get a better paid job. My company is in the process of changing our interview process and it will involve at least two interviews, a profiling stage, and for some pilots a simulator assessment. The ability to hand fly, fly raw data, be able to make good sound decisions, and show multi crew abilities are very high up our requirements for pilots and you dont get that by doing a rating in a 737.

One last thing - I read every single CV that I am sent. I'm trying to file CV's correctly in order to keep track of how people progress and I am going to make sure I carry on doing that because I know how hard it is to get a first job in aviation.

good luck

[Hotelpresident]

I wonder how the market for pilots is today if you don’t have been working as a pilot but if you now have the TR for Boeing 737 300-900 and a total flight time around 1500 hrs?


Easy, it's CLOSED!!!

[Hägar]

Check out the Rex site at regionalexpress.com.au - About Rex - Career Opportunities. They are looking for pilots. They will be conducting interviews at Lanseria Airport, South Africa from 30 June to 04 July 2008. Ad has been in all the major RSA newspapers. Entry level requirements not to stiff.

[ssschmokin1]

sorry if this is a repost, I don't have the time to read the whole thread, but thought i would chip in with a tip....
I used to work the ramp at a London airport about 4 years ago. There were 5 guys there all fATPL low hours. All are now in jet jobs.

Why? They were working the network, in the aviation scene, and heard about jobs coming up. If I was a wannabe now, as soon as I got my ticket I would be applying to be ground crew/dispatcher at a busy airport where turboprop/small carriers fly out of. That's a great way to get to know the pilots and get them to put in the crucial word in the ear for you. You never know, the four striper you are chatting to on the ramp might be the guy or gal who will be doing interviews in a few weeks and if they like you, you won't be an anonymous CV in a pile......

[Dougal McGuire]

Best Advice i've seen, well done ssschmokin!,

Thats exactly what i did, worked on the ramp for a few cold winter months, then on to dispatch, got to know the right people and got my CV on to the right desk,

Starting a TR in a few weeks!

Happy Days.:ok:

[EGCC4284]

Network, network and more network



http://www.pprune.org/forums/3821823-post640.html

[lc_aerobatics]

absolutelly agree with above. I work in business and only finished my fATPL few weeks ago. Got two job offers but didn't accept any yet waiting for one interview I was waiting for the last year, hopefully will happen in September.

[Day_Dreamer]

lc aerobatics

The jobs are few and far between, my advice for what its worth is to take any job that is offered, you need to keep flying and consolidate the skills you have learnt.
This winter will be bad for job seekers, hopefully improving if and when oil prices come to a reasonable level.
Many carriers are about to lay pilots off and the few jobs around will go to experienced pilots and SSTR's.

[Orbs]

I agree this winter will be tough in most parts of the world, but was looking at Airline Pilot Jobs - Jobs for Pilots Flight Deck Jobs Flight Crew Vacancies Worldwide (http://www.airlinepilotjobs.com) and there still seem to be a fair few of the middle eastern airlinesthat are actively recruiting and not showing any signs of cancelling orders for new aircraft.

Emirates, Gulf, Qatar, etihad etc all on there....No UK carriers though!

[tsrp]

Vito

Keep your head up and press on.

Back in 91' I flight instructed full time for 2 years while working for a commuter airline in southern Minnesota. During that time, I had the same feelings as you do now.

After two years of instructing, got a job with a commuter as a FO on a Beech 1900 with 1300TT.

Now, Im flying as a Capt. on a Citation XL for a local corporation for the last ten years.

Keep the Faith. It can be done.

[fungi]

First post on this forum, so hello to everybody :)
So - here is my theory:
It's very loud now about the fuel prices, and airline difficulties, and maybe all of you are right. But one day this will finish, and and business will go back on its path - good path for us - pilots. At the end of the day - can you imagine, that world will go back to the ships swimming between Europe and America? I don't think so - the planes will stay, and there always will be a need to recruit a pilots.
Now i can see how excellent decision was made by Flaby buying Dash8's with it's excellend fuel economy. The same is with ATR's.
Right now I'm owner of brand new PPL, and planning to strart my ATPL course in October, and ... I HAVE TO belive in my theory, otherwise I'll give up - and i don't want to!

[Always Moving]

Someone said to Learn form HISTORY.

I have been in aviation for a bit more than a decade and I already have seen one full cycle. It will get back to good times like 2 years ago.
The question is.... Are the ridges and valleys getting smaller?

This is an international Forum and due to the requirement of countries (governments) of having the legal right to be employ, sometimes people think they are talking about the same thing and they are not.

You can not compare an EU member (where now is Fu:mad:ed) with a USA member (where now you get paid peanuts, but there is plenty of jobs) to a Third world country (where if you have the license,you have a job), to people with time in Types, etc.This is a great thread but to the new guys probably does not make any sense due to the above mention causes.

And when I said a job, I mean, you move a plane between (normally) airports and at the end of the month they PAY YOU.
I DO NOT MEAN AIRLINE JOBS ONLY (like some)

Good luck and always look at least you know the market!

[INNflight]

I really can't wait to shoot out CVs to corporate outfits and airlines. If they take me on, lovely. Of course!!!

If not, off to Africa I am. You only live once me thinks, surely a good (interesting?) experience :bored:

agree this winter will be tough in most parts of the world, but was looking at Airline Pilot Jobs - Jobs for Pilots Flight Deck Jobs Flight Crew Vacancies Worldwide (http://www.airlinepilotjobs.com/) and there still seem to be a fair few of the middle eastern airlinesthat are actively recruiting and not showing any signs of cancelling orders for new aircraft.

Emirates, Gulf, Qatar, etihad etc all on there....No UK carriers though!

What you forget (but should realize at the first glimpse!!!) is that these outfits DO NOT TAKE low timers.

I keep hearing that airlines are looking for pilots anyway. That's true, but they don't want low-time f/o's, they WANT CAPTAINS.

Surely anybody with 2-3k TT can wander off to the sand pit and get a job there, but you can't seriously think they'll take you on their new 330's or 777's with 500TT ;)

[safepilots]

Very sadly, the opportunity offered in Congo was withdrawn without asking for any precision. I would like to point out that every company in Africa is not using you like toilet paper ! Some companies are serious, working for european and american clients who are not willing to let their employees/clients fly with flying coffins. Those companies are more than often evaluted by american and europeans auditors who are very fast to withdraw a contract to a company not fullfilling their requirements. The company searching for captains B100/B200 is one of the more serious and more concerned with security I know in Africa. Denying the right to any pilot to juge by himself due to stories dating 20 years or more is not fair (at least).
I personnaly started my carreer 30 years ago in Kinshasa and yes, those flying coffins were very common and nearly the rule. Nowadays, there are real airlines and air taxi companies working hard to meet europeans and americans criterias. Be sure you are missing a real opportunity to get experience on a nice aircraft and working with a nice team. But maybe now, young pilots want to start their carreer on at least an A330, accepting maybe a F/O seat temporarily ? Where is the pilot spirit gone ?

We wish all the starters success with their carreers.

[righthandseat]

Hear hear !!! I spent my life savings while working as an instructor being paid pittance, but things are now starting to look up.... Being recognized for my efforts now with a healthy pay and the prospect of jet time.. So far its taken me 3 years to get here and I have about 20hrs multi. I know about hard work !!!!

[fofeytor]

Keep trying! i was waitting for 4 years to find a job....and now maybe again on the street..after working for 7 years....aviation is like this...:ok:

[timzsta]

Taken a friend of mine five years Instructing and 1700 hours to get a job. Now the offers are coming in thick and fast for him.

There is a lot to be said for the FI/Air Taxi apprenticeship route.

[marcogfaa]

It's a matter of who you now...no offense..
I have 2200 hrs, 2100 PIC,1000 multi, 1800 as flight instructor!
Hold FAA and JAA CPL ATPL frozen, CFI-CFII-MEI
1st class medicals FAA-JAA...still...no jobs..
all I did was working at the edge of visa extensions in the us..
A buddy of mine, had 300TT and paid for his TR..he is working for Ryanair now..his brother in law works in training (for ryan)...

1: who you know
2: money to spend in TR's
...
112230904: skill

That's Europe...
No meritocracy at all...just friends and hand shakes!

[boyo975]

That's Europe...
No meritocracy at all...just friends and hand shakes!


Of course this can be the case, but here in the UK it can often be the opposite. Many of my friends have fathers that were senior captains in BA, but were jobhunting like myself with small turboprop operators. In '97 when I got my first job I didn't know anyone within the industry. Was a trainer in FR for a few years, and I would say the majority of the entrants didn't have any connections?

Having worked and lived in Italy for some time I became aware that nepotism is a problem there in all walks of life....as for the whole of Europe I'm not sure.................

[piperindian]

That's Europe...
No meritocracy at all...just friends and hand shakes!

sums it up.. those are the rules

i know guys who were hired by majors as FO on large jets with low hours (but they killed later themselves in light single airplanes because of basic errors, which says a lot about the airline hiring) because of that golden handshake

I know as well excellent pilots (and recognised as so by several instructors), with 1000hrs (and CFI) who never found a job because they did not have the essential contacts (the contacts are more often than not through family, which is technically nepotism indeed)

[Luke_08]

This is just a suggestion, but Flybe in southampton are growing massively and they are getting new aircraft. NEW JOBS???

[josemarb]

Easyjet is looking for pilots. More info Pilot Careers - Careers in the Air - easyJet Careers (http://www.easyjetcareers.com/flight-crew-careers/pilot-careers/)

[daisy120]

good one and constructive comment from "scratching". In the end, its just down to the hard yakka of perseverence. Do NOT give up handling the aeroplane while you're waiting for that illustrious job in the RHS. Go and tug..yep, fly the pawnee, get your hands on a Thruster FGS or a cessna 180. Being at the sticky end of the pipeline does, in the end, create dividend, even if it is a B200 job out of Angola or Mozi.
As a 20k C and T with a China Sea based Co, I see the best quality from the guys who have hung in there, chased the Africa offer and some. The boys from PNg or Vanuatu are the same. Its about showing your new employer that you have the tenacity and the dedication to both survive in the job, take the **** and the politics of the firm, the crappy flight time limitations and the early, min rest calls, split duties and 2 sector, long haul days. Its about working for guys that you or most of your peers would never fix bayonettes for when the whistle blows but seem to hideously manage their show. Tug the forelock, bite the bottom lip and get on with the job of handling the aeroplane without breaking it, complaining about it or crying to the union. The easy bit is flying the aerolplane and hey, no one gives a toss where you were in the pickings of first time instrument rating passes. If you can fly the Twotter out of a Scottish winter with no autopilot and into an Airbus summer of chinese typhoons, then all is square with the world. I seem to detect an underlying groundswell from the Uk potentials, that its Ok to rest on the laurels of a good CV and wait for the Fly B or EJ boys to welcome with open arms. Forget it. get your arse out into the paddock and get flying...anything...but show them that the dedication is founded on the passion to fly and not the parameters of conditions of service, a gold crusted ATPL and the ticks in the box. It is afterall, an apprenticeship. One that is built from handling aeroplanes in hard environments, putting brevity to the "war stories" and being true to the industry you have chosen as a career. Good luck. See you in as I'm on the out!!

[olster]

daisy 120,I possibly know you if you fly for the (in)famous former expat paradise in HK -as I did also some years ago.I have to say your reply is absolutely spot on and is the best advice I have read on pprune for a long time to aspirant pilots.I agree completely that if you want to fly go out and get your hands on aircraft in remote parts of the world,instruct,crop spray etc.I did some of those things,was pro-active in looking for work and eventually found myself winging my way into Kai-Tak in the LHS of a green and white 747.Great post!

[redsnail]

daisy120,

Love your work, fantastic stuff. :ok:

[Alfredo tp]

Yup, that's what I gonna say in my next interview...next? I mean the first, ha!
Having 2000h and 600h multi, after being an instructor for almost two years...I know there is a biiiig pilot demand! The problem: the delay of aircraft deliverys, because they will be grounded anyway, cause of the operating costs (fuel, etc...). Som the airlines are waiting for better profit years, but pilots, they still need like crazy. BUT: airplane does not fly, pilot goes home, that easy!!!
Had that nice oportunity in South Africa ,B737's, and the same lighting came down...well at least I got the 737 type in that way:-) (yes, lucky me? NO, cause I was chasing that stuff for about 9 weeks!), but I think I'll go and do some ferry flights and/or Bush Flying, until my turn comes for the heavy stuff.
Anybody knows some ferry companies?

[42ir]

Hi

Its been over three years for me, I had an air taxi job that went wrong:mad:
No money to buy a type rating, IR/MEP just out of date medical ok, the doctor said that I would live but after hearing of the money that I have spent said that he wouldnt recommend it!!!!:=
As you said dont give up well I never will, but was it a mistake?
While looking for a part time job and in the job centre looking around me for solicitors doctors etc in the same position and not finding any I did wonder:{
Would I do it again........................................YES
Its late so sorry didnt read this myself hope it makes sense, what have I been doing today my job after 20 years as an electronics engineer working on SLUICE MACHINES reason B.A didnt call me today!!!
Hope that helps KEEP AT IT CAPTAIN

[Gridnorth]

Wow! Its all been said before and the answer is in this thread somewhere. There are many ways to get into this industry, but in the end it comes down to LUCK.

I left a good career to do this. I was 30ish- "you are too old" they said. I did the self-improver route (Daddy not rich, unfortunately) and was not some hot s**t from Oxford; So I did taxi driving to pay bills and many small jobs I detested, then having qualified, 5 grand more went on becoming an instructor (and another wage cut).

Tell you what though- Instructing was the best thing I ever did and as they say- if you could earn a living at it, the airlines would not be able to find any pilots.

All airline pilots like a good moan and from this thread it appears many of you have the required ability in this area.

I got a job on a jet straight out of instructing at age 40- as I said, LUCK. Right place at the right time- there is no science to this. BUT, if you don't have the required qualifications, hours and ratings VALID and CURRENT when the call comes, you won't get the job.

From what I read here, many of you went into this endeavour with a gun to your head. Me, I went into it because I wanted to. If it failed I only had myself to blame.

Stop blaming everyone else for your lack of LUCK. This isn't X-Factor airways.... You won't get plucked from obscurity with the bare minimum of qualifications. If you are failing interviews- seek feedback or you will keep making the same mistakes. Do your homework, especially as many of you don't seem to have done so before parting with large sums on money.

I forget the billionaire who said it but think on this: "the harder I work, the luckier I get". If someone else got the job, they simply worked harder at getting it, one way or another. Make your own luck.

By the way, There is an airline recruiting pilots who are instructors straight onto a jet as we speak-but did you progress beyond your own self pity at 200hrs or did you do your homework and get an application to them?

Not all jobs are advertised.

For those who persist and have the right strength of purpose, a job will be there, but no-one owes you anything. Get that into your head and you won't go far wrong in this industry.

I wish you all luck.

[seano]

Yes I must agree on this I am 33 years old married with two children Cian (3years) and Madison (8 months) and I am away from home doing contract work for two months on one month off. I am missing my children’s childhood for my dream. I am flying a C208B and getting the experience and hours I need. This is it guys if you are not prepared to chase your dream please let it go. There is no way in hell that you can expect an airline company to employ you with no experience. Take the next step and pursue your career don'’ sit and wait for it to come to you.

Hang in there I am and if you dream hard enough it will happen!!

[Bustahymen]

I agree with LST too. If you're not one of the few lucky ones to get an airline job soon after training the it's probably time to do the exciting apprentiship!

I qualified just after 09/11 - possibly aviation's worst time since it's invention. First i did some para-dropping and glider towing. After a bit of deliberation I got an FI rating, then instructed for over 2 years, spent 6 months flying a twin in africa. Then things picked up in 2004/5 and i flew a piston twin in UK, next was a twin turbine job. Eventually I got an airline position in 2006.

That was hard work! But fun too - so you wannabees should maybe accept that if your timing is unlucky like mine was, it might be your turn to fly those smaller a/c. That flying was actually much more fun than my airline work now, so I wouldnt miss it for the world if i lived this life again! Not that I'm not grateful for my job now though!!

Pull yourselves together and go and enjoy flying aeroplanes!!

[PtP]

Listen you guys... There is no substitute for hard graft in this industry.... The apprentice route is the way to go... My personal experience was AFI to 750 hrs Air Taxi for 9 months. Regional turbo prop for 18 months. 737 for 2 and a half years and for the past 7 yrs B747-400. And you know what.... ive never been so bloody miserable... put me back on a 30 seat turbo prop out of a regional base!!!

Good luck to all who start in this bloody career and if you are considering it... go and do something else before its too late!!

[skyhunter]

Hi,
I'm hunting after career options. Flying C208B sounds like a good job when you want to gain hours. I'm curious how you got the job and If you know about some operators hiring at the moment.
Brgrds

[mo_744]

Good day Sky. There is a couple of jobs on the C208.. Check nothern air Tanzania.. They r quite good from what i have heard. Also susi air in indonesia is good. How many hours r u on?

Best of luck

[Always Moving]

Good is a subjective term.....

Can you tell them, the ball park figure of the salary? I believe it is around 1000USD.
I personally will not consider that good even if I only had 250h.

[eikido]

How can people be so naiv? How can people expect to get a RHS on a shiny Jet from start?

I never expected to get a Jet job straight away. I haven't even started training. I abandoned my dream when i was 18 because i knew what it would involve. Now i'm following my dream again but this time i'm ready to work HARD and i have the funds. Glad i didn't do it when i was 18!!!!! :uhoh:

But doesn't this apply to all sorts of professions it?

· To be able to get the title "lawyer", you must work 5 years as a "jurist". (In Sweden, could be different elsewhere).

· I have a friend who is working hard as a music producer and earn a living out of it. THAT is difficult!!! This friend has two other friends who recently got a hit on radio after 10 years of hard work as producers. I myself have read many interviews and barographs about DJ's and music producers who worked their way up and it took them many many years.

· To start working as a project leader within engineering you will need at least 5 years of practical work within engineering. My experienced working buddies gets to travel all the time doing all the fun work while I’m sitting in front of the computer like a dork doing what I’m told to do.

· Opening up a new business, whatever it is, a restaurant, barber shop, car dealer, selling carpets, clothes, eye glasses etc... will need many years to earn a good reputation to get a decent amount of customers.

· Just take a peek at all the shows in Las Vegas and ask all the actors what their dream is. How many actors didn't work their ass of whoring themselves to get where they are today.

· How about art and Design? Just look at the experience the designers have at the car industries forexamples. Where did they start? From 0 at home doing probably free work in the beginning.

· Someone gave a great example about doctors here. No need to mention it.

· How many of these above didn’t sweat for bread and water.


I can't even believe that you can get a RHS on a Jet newly graduated! Simply amazing that there is even a slightest chance!:ooh:

[Cadet Michael]

Hi everyone,

Id like to ask about Penny Austin, as I heard she is really good interview coach. I tried to log on into her web site but its out of date. Can you please advise me how to contact Penny Austin?
I am a student pilot in UK and in April 2009 I should get ATPL, trying prepare for my interviews in advanced...

Thanks

[cortilla]

Just wanted to point out, it is possible. My first job flying was in the RHS of a shiny 737. It is possible, not easy, but possible. (well maybe not now with all the redundancies at various airlines, but it'll pick up again at some point in the future)

[eikido]

Yes mate i'm fully aware of that. I've heard about a few who got a jet job at ~200h.

However i don't understand how because there is always someone who has more experience than someone with ~200h. I've read numerous posts about Flight Instructors who had to work for several years until they got that jet job. Does that mean that Flight Instructing actually have low effect or something? How come these ~200h pilots get chosen over experienced pilots? It really cannot be that hard to find someone for a jet job with more than ~200h. I can't make the math in my head, it's not logical.

Edit: Just read dartagnans post.

this is what I 'm doing(lousy jobs), and I am in this business since 12-13 years and logged thousand of hours(cargo, para,instructor,...).12 years of struggling.Does it worth?not for me anymore....but why should I do something else?give up?

He has done everything, cargo, instructing, para etc! Thousands of hours and fresh 200h pilots get the jobs over him. Thats 1 example! I've read many more.

[MIKECR]

For the simple reason that 200 hour pilots straight out of flight training from one of the big well known schools, are a known quantity. They are airline 'ready' so to speak. They have been 'moulded' if you like. An airline suddenly needs 20 pilots asap so they go straight to a training provider and ask for the top 20 students. They know what final product theyre getting, the FTO has already done all the necessary filtering and vetting. Hence the integrated route has always been a preferred route for those who want to get straight to a jet job from the word go. They pay for the privilege but thats jut the way it go's.

[eikido]

Thank you for the answer MIKECR.

However, i still don't find it logical that a fresh integrated student trained "the airline way" is more desirable than an experienced say flight instructor.

[MIKECR]

eikido,

Logic doesnt necessarily come into it.

The airlines who prefer the 1000 hour instructors are the likes of the regional TP operators. For the simple reason they can achieve a full ATPL at 1500 hours much quicker than the 200 hour counterpart and can promote them to left seat quickly.

200 hour pilots straight from flight school will always be more attractice to bigger jet operators for the reasons I stated in my previous post. They are a 'known' product, are easily available, and the vetting processes etc have already been completed by the FTO. Their training records and school reports are also easily accessable. They will probably have jet experience already from the likes of a JOC course etc. BA, Ezy, the bucket and spade companies will always hoover up these people.

Of course the FI with 1000 hours has much more experience but you have to put yourself in the shoes of the recruiter at the 'jet' airline. Do you sit and trawl through a 100 cv's from a mixed bag of people or is it perhaps easier to go straight to the big FTO and ask for 20 of the best students who can start next week.

It seems harsh and I can totally sympathise - im a modular guy who finished my fATPL last April and still have no flying job. First time passes in everything from IR and CPl to all atpl exams with average score well over 90%. At best I have a couple of hold pool slots, with start dates no where in sight. At present I tow gliders, drop parachutists, even fly as a safety pilot in a king air. Its incredibly frustrating seeing people get jobs in front of me but im sure my lucky break will come soon. I wasnt(and couldnt) prepared to pay for an integrated course hence I went modular. Getting a job is incredibly tough, even more so in the current climate. I remain positive and keep my flying current in the interim. Another MEIR renewal will hurt but hey ho, no pain no gain.

[eikido]

I have sympathy for you mate and i wish you all the best. I hope you get to a jet job real soon.:ok:

I do agree with you that it's probably easier for the airline to just ask an a FTO if they have 20 students ready to work after say a week.

Ever considered instructing mate?

[flyboy1818]

I can't believe that we are having a full blown modular vs integrated debate during a recession. I'm modular and currently doing my ATPL exams, it was refreshing to see during a recent trip to cranfield for a brush up that for the first time in almost a decade integrated students are agreeing with modular students that we are all in the same boat with the same licence. Infact some of the integrated students expressed the opnion that they had made the wrong choice and that there debt levels were so high that it was Jet job or bust, they could not afford to live off the lower salaries of an instructor or air taxi Pilot. Mike at the end of the day everyone has there opnion, mine is that its a personal choice based around personnal circumstance and there is no reason why a modular student cannot get a Jet job straight out of training infact it happened to a friend just last week. In the same way that students from the local community school often do just as well or not better as kids from the local boarding school, modular students can excel, it just takes a little bit more effort thats all!

[KAG]

Susi Air!!!

Good is a subjective term.....

Can you tell them, the ball park figure of the salary? I believe it is around 1000USD.
I personally will not consider that good even if I only had 250h.


I had an offer few years ago it was 2000$ to start. I understand that after 2 years you average 3000$-4000$ a month, accomodation provided. I have never worked there, it was what I was offered.

And I don' t think you could be PIC with 250 hours. They use to ask 1000-1500 hours with some turbine time.
As I said I have not worked there, so I am not 100% sure of the accuracy of my post, but the pay is defenitely not 1000$.

[MIKECR]

flyboy818,

Sorry, but dont know what your getting at. I wasnt aware at any stage we were having a 'debate' about anything. Eikido was questioning why 200 hour pilots walk straight into jet jobs. I have tried to answer that question from my(yes MY) perspective. If you think im wrong in what i've said then im perfectly open to suggestions?? Having been job hunting for over a year and a half I have tried to base my answer on the trends that i have seen. Im certainly not advocating that anyone should go out and pay for integrated training just now as the market has changed. In fact, the job market is on its backside just now. If anything, i would suggest the likes of FI's with experience are probably better placed than the average 200 hour guy, given the current situation.


eikido,

Would love to do an FI rating but dont have the money just now to spend on it. Just bought a new house and getting married next year so money isnt exactly growing on the apple tree in the back garden. Future Mrs Mikecr might also have saomething to say on me spending 7 or 8k on FI!! Oh how times have changed....to be 18 years old, free and single again!!!:}

[CABUS]

I was a low hour mod pilot who was fortunate enough to secure a jet, after substancial pilot safety work but my job is far from secure and I am looking at FI courses incase the P45 arrives. I just think we all have to realise that flying is flying and when the upturn comes we will all be poised to jump and secure a career in which ever line of work we choose. No rubbish about mod or intergrated, when the upturn arrives it just wont matter, its the recency and hrs and most of all personality and luck that count.

Congrats Mikecr with the whole marrage thing, best of luck:ok:

[CRASH TEST]

Eikido:

I couldn´t agree with you more! :ok:

We have to start thinking that aviation is just a job, a very fascinating and exciting one, but a job after all! Like any other proffesion you have to start from zero and after a lot of work,dedication and a little bit of luck you end up with your desired position and salary. No short cuts!

Good luck to all of you guys!:ok::ok:

[portsharbourflyer]

A 200 hour pilot fresh of the IR is better prepared for a type rating than an instructor who has largely been teaching VFR flying for a year or so. Didn't feel my VFR instructional experience was really all that much help when it came to completing a type rating on the larger stuff.

A good IR brush up in a sim is going to prepare you better for a type rating than a few hundred hours of circuit bashing. Instructing purely bulks the hours for meeting insurance requirements and as you mention Mikecr there are some operators where hours flown per year are low, therefore the 1000 hours is needed to shorten the time to achieving an ATPL and therefore a command. Instructing was good fun and it is certainly better to be flying than not flying but flying a light aircraft and operating a heavy type are very different types of flying.

Mikecr, sounds as though you are doing all the right things, but if Mrs MCR to be wouldn't be happy about you spending 7000 on an FI rating would she be any happier about the potential paycut you may have to take if you do get offered a job as turbo prop FO job. I may be wrong on my assumption but unless you live in Scotland of the far north the sort of income you need to secure the mortgage on house is certainly alot more than the salary of most TP FO jobs .

Good luck anyway.

[VNA Lotus]

pprune forum

[PPRuNeUser0215]

IFR is important of course but it is really easy when you get a few hundred or thousand hours as experience...
I think when it comes to jobs and particularly sim rides, IFR flying is a bit more than flying radials. Thousands of hours VFR, teaching straight and level becomes quite irrelevant when put under the pressure of a sim ride, emergency management,the need to have strict SOPs and good CRM (such as task allocation, which is a bit more than being nice to people). As for saying it is easy... I guess flying an ILS is. Managing a flight the way commercial operators (airlines and the likes) expect it, is something else.
Frankly, less hours in the right environment is much better.
Sure, a job is a job and being an FI is better than being unemployed but don't do too much of it (thousands of hours wouldn't look so good at all, to say the least).
Just like Single Pilot Ops is better than being an FI but don't do too much of it.
And Multi Crew, light turbo prop is better than the two above but.... You guessed it, don't do too much of it (Light turbo prop operators tend to be a bit "flexible" with SOPs, EU OPS)

Depending on your career goals, all the above stuff are good but too much of any and you will fall in the category of people, airlines (and large Biz operators), will have some suspicion about. Plus, the older you get, the more aware of that you should be.

[n]VnavLotus[/b], don't get me wrong. I don't disagree with things like it is about experience, skills, relationship, confidence etc..
It is true, it will be valuable and might even make the difference at the interview but it is far from being enough. yet, combined with the right experience, it will probably make you a nice guy to fly with.

To the unemployed snobs who look down on FIs, please don't. They may have demonstrated a better judgement than many, by chosing the right option once their CPL ticket in the pocket. And they have job., they are employed as pilots...
To the FI who thinks, he is better because he flies circles, in VMC, in a 152 then don't. This could be your downfall.
To all of you, just be smart with you career. Do what it takes to keep or get quality experience, to make your CV really appealing.

As always, the road to success is.... Not just one. For each pilot there is a way which will work and everywhere we failed, someone else might have succeeded. It is worth pursuing as many options you encounter or ideas you get and be very persistant all the way (but not a pain in the bum).

Good luck all !

[portsharbourflyer]

VNA,

I was an instructor myself and have had a brief spell flying the heavier stuff, so I am speaking from experience.

I do agree with alot of the points you make, working as an FI is a great experience and it is better to be instructing that not flying at all.

But for completing a type rating IFR currency and a bit of time of some higher performace types will be far better preparation than several hundred hours of VFR instructing. As said the usefulness of instructional hours to employers is the fact your hours will allow you to meet insurance requirments and reduces your time to command. Fair enough get the no applied instruments restriction lifted and then instructing will allow you to maintain IFR currency.


Amex has hit a very good point, do too much of one thing for too long and you start to think you are getting good at something, but if you don't keep progressing then you can fall into a comfort zone and it can get harder to get back into the learning zone.

[sharmatanoo]

im a cabin crew workinh in dubai...is it really getting that difficult to get pilot jobs these days..?? im interested bcause im going for my course in few months and i keep thinking if im making the right move plus its a total risk for me cause im not someone who likes to study a lot... but i just thought that this job is worthy enough to put wat i like and dont like aside and work hard for it... appericiate ur help

[eikido]

sharmatanoo

It is very very difficult (almost impossible) to get a job today. It will take many years before airlines hire pilots again.

You must read this. It is going to take you time but it is worth it.
http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/335548-growing-evidence-upturn-upon-us.html

Wait first and read this website very carefully.

[paddyuav]

:ugh:
Maybe its a good time to take a year out and go travelling. Any tips for when I come back?

[portsharbourflyer]

VNA, it is generally regarded that there is not much advantage to be gained by having more than a 1000 hours of single engine VFR time. When JAA introducing the 500 multi crew time required for an ATPL then any single engine hours past 1000 will not help you achieve a green licence (frustratingly this also means single crew multi hours also do not count towards this requirement).

With regard to piston twin and light turbine twins, if it is single pilot ops then some airlines do view pilots with alot of single pilot time as a potential CRM problem, not sure what would constitute too much single ops time and not saying I necessarily agree with that view either.

While some airlines will view instructional hours as useful due to been able to progress you to command quicker, there are also some operators who will factor down single engine hours when determining time to command, I guess that is to stop an instructor with 2500 hours SEP time gaining a jet command within six months of employment, so in that sense the factoring down of single engine time is not unreasonable.

[CaptainJim]

I assume you went the modular route which leaves you few options ie low fare airlines, regional airlines or instructing. (All the nice companies want 1500tt with jet or integrated) You probably don't have enough hours for air taxi I assume.

I was in a similar position to you one year ago but now I'm flyin a 737-800 (guess who for?) I had almost 700 hours & most of it in twins and my only hope in the end was to go to "you know who" & give them €30000 for a type rating but it worked.

Now I get €80 per block hour and have nearly 600 hours in a jet.

They are hirin next March but possibly so are Cityjet (but an S instead of a C would suit them better), Flybe & maybe Easyjet.

A CPL with no hours means little as so does a type rating without hours on type. You must have known the industry was like this before you started. Pilots are plentiful especially those with low hours and as for passing all your tests 1st time, congrats Maverick but whatever.

I hope you have a type rating in your budget if not go for instructing & climb up the ranks and you'll eventually get on a kingair or corporate jet.

If you gotta go back to your old job, get your FI rating & instruct on weekends and when the recession blows over you'll be a good position.

Unfortunately for the UK & Eire boys & girls the continenatals won't even look at us, even though it doesn't work the other way round. Such as life.

All the best mate

[pilotmike]

I assume you went the modular route which leaves you few options ie low fare airlines, regional airlines or instructing. (All the nice companies want 1500tt with jet or integrated)
No amount of regurgitation of this myth will turn it into fact.

Whereas you might have gone to an airline which you don't consider to be 'nice', not very far away from you there could very well be another airline which is considered to be much 'nicer' (ie uniform paid, type rating paid, car park paid, sim paid, pension and private medical paid, etc...). They recently recruited older, modular pilots straight out of training, with low hours and no jet time straight on to their jet fleet, which makes a mockery of your statement above however much you might wish it to be true.

[tommoutrie]

It is impossible to second guess the metrics that Airlines use for employing pilots. The favoured background tends to be whatever route the person doing the employment took and that varies enormously from company to company. One way to move forward with an airline is to work for them in another capacity - anything will do - and that way they will know you are not an employment risk. I know a number of pilots that fly big shiny jets that used to be dispatchers, flight attendents, ops staff etc and made the transfer when the company needed pilots.
The biggest influencing factor in a company hiring pilots is "dammit, we don't have enough pilots and we just lost a revenue sector because we were short of a driver. Get some more jeeves" and right now thats not happening. Most companies are clinging on for grim death and just trying to bleed cash at a sustainable rate.

Times aint good - fly anything you can and stay busy. I don't agree that you can have too much time on a twin or instructing. If the economic environment is poor an employer will be interested in the fact that you stayed in the air. If you can't do that, they will be interested if you did something else that was interesting (don't sit and watch tricia). It took me years to get my first proper job so keep the faith.

[MIKECR]

Scratchingthesky,

Anyone who's been laid off with a 737 or an A320 rating is going to struggle. Every man and his dog has a rating for these aircraft. With the likes of XL's and Sterlings demise, it comes as no surprise that there are hundreds of experienced TR'd jet guys looking for work.

On the other side of the coin, the likes of Eastern Airways are struggling to recruit suitable captains for the J41 fleet. Why? Theres no spare 41 Tr'd guys on the market. Like many TP operators, they probably wouldnt touch experienced jet pilots because they know fine well they'll up sticks and be off at the slightest sniff of a better jet job elsewhere.

I was speaking to the Depute Chief Pilot for a freight/cargo TP operator recently who told me he was inundated with calls from XL jet guys and other jet pilots who'd been laid off. Low and behold...he's turned them all away in favour of recruiting Fatpl holders if and when the need arises.

[Lightheart]

This may interest your friend.

http://www.jordanaviation.jo/

[shaun ryder]

if it is single pilot ops then some airlines do view pilots with alot of single pilot time as a potential CRM problem,

Dont make me laugh, thats BS.

Would you care to enlighten us as to which airlines think this way. Mr harbour flyer? Somehow, I dont think you have the balls to, if you really know that is.

Do you have any single pilot IFR multi time yourself?

Do you know how many airline pilots come from this type of background?

I doubt it!

Rest assured people. Learning a companies set of sops is no more difficult for an air taxi pilot, than it is for a green as grass newbie.

I know who I would rather employ.

[portsharbourflyer]

Mr Ryder, re-read my post and you will see it is not a view I necessarily agree with.

Easyjet require 500 hours multi crew so you can have all the single pilot time in the world, it won't get you into Easyjet.

I do remember speaking to someone from Jet2 at the Balpa conference who had commented on the CRM issues with some pilots who had flown in single pilot ops for too long. Please read the post by Amex, while some experience of certain things is good, too much can "type" set you.

I don't think it is unreasonable assumption that some one who has spent ten years operating as a single pilot may find adapting to multi crew ops a bit of a culture shock and there are of course those can make the transition without any issues.

I have flown with Captains from an air taxi background and I have done some PA work in the past. So I am fully aware of the number of pilots that do stream from this background.

[kkeymish]

I guess there are a lot of us who are floating in the same boat. Got my FAA cpl way back in march'08. Came back to India hoping to get a job as soon as i get my license converted to Indian. Now ended up sitting at home doing nothing, waiting for the jobs to come out.
Some times it just makes me wonder whether there was actually any sort of boom in the industry when the media and the companies projected a need for atleast 5000 pilots in the next couple of years.
A friend of mine suggested me to look out.. as in out side india.. and now i am searching for ways to convert my license to JAA too as companies in europe ask for jaa license. Could any one be of any help.

[super ted123]

This post makes interesting reading.

Amex you make a point that

(Light turbo prop operators tend to be a bit "flexible" with SOPs, EU OPS)
I can assure you that where I work I do not flex anything with regard to Sop's or EU OPS or flight safety! What a statement.

I couldn’t disagree more. I have many friends in big airlines and I assure you that they have many bloopers with regard to Sop's, Ops, basic airmanship. A big airline, with big jets is no more professional than a smaller airline with TP's, come on. Where is your evidence?

Alas, Pprune is not what it was.

I can assure you that all of the guys that have moved on from my work have been very successful in there 'big companies' and the flying on TP's has prepared them very well. One thing is that all these guys can actually fly an aircraft. There’s a skill an FI, TP or taxi pilot has that guys with just 200-250 hours just hasn’t had the time to develop yet.

It has been noted by various training departments how good the handling skills of the guys that left were.

Sop's are Sop's, its not rocket science. You make the effort, you learn them, practice in the sim and line training and when you are deemed safe, you are let loose.

I have flown with ex single pilot guys and never had a problem.

Its very difficult to get a job at the moment and while I agree you don’t want to do any one thing for to long, if your flying, your flying and at the moment that is a result.

All the best to those trying to get a job.

There is a lot of good advice on here and getting a position at a company that looks like it may hire in the near future doing something other than flying is a very good idea. It has worked for friends of mine.

Best of luck and keep going.

If you have the licence you have come to far to give up.

:ok:

[CharlieLima]

This is the thread I've been looking for, some great information in here. Good luck to all for any type of work, integrated with 200 hours or modular with 1000's

I guess its a bit like the seniority with the airline it dosnt come down to your hours but more like your loyalty, attitude and transparency.

Still if it was me, which it may well be in 2 years time I would be trying to log some CFI time.

[PPRuNeUser0215]

Amex you make a point that

(Light turbo prop operators tend to be a bit "flexible" with SOPs, EU OPS)
I can assure you that where I work I do not flex anything with regard to Sop's or EU OPS or flight safety! What a statement.

I couldn’t disagree more. I have many friends in big airlines and I assure you that they have many bloopers with regard to Sop's, Ops, basic airmanship. A big airline, with big jets is no more professional than a smaller airline with TP's, come on. Where is your evidence?

You will excuse me but I do not need to provide any evidence (We are not on judge Judy) but I just have to see what I see during sim rides and interviews to see what type pilots tend to struggle more. I have not said that you for exemple will fail. I am saying that the environment some of us fly in (read how SOP minded is your company, safety culture etc... All the subtle things other than stick and rudder), will make succeeding at an interview, a strong possibilty or not. I stand by my statement that Light Turbo Prop operators ( I have worked for enough of these guys) tend to be more flexible. Read again if you need to but "tend" does not mean they all do. Just like small GA departments tend to have little or no SOPs worth mentioning and some operators we know operating large gear, are just as bad.
If I have to name one airline I think that tends to deliver good quality pilots, I would that say that Easyjet (note that I ve never worked for them and have no interest in LoCos) seems to have guys who operates along the same good standards. You fly with one or the other of their guys only to see there is very little difference on how they run the flight, manage under pressure or decide to go for whatever option they see as better. Yet some of them aren't as good but overall, they "tend" to display some very good qualities.
I see guys with all sorts of background coming through and never assume one thing or another but I am perfectly allowed to observe trends or even to be pleasantly surprised (and believe me, I like when people do a good job. Makes me impatient to work with them).

So if your company has a strong SOP culture all the good things then do not assume either that all similar operators do. It is a big world out there and you would be amazed at what goes on. I know we all are when we see it. It is a very good thing for you and your future and like you said, you should always aim for that. Again you know that, I know that but for many it takes some time to realise and apply this philosophy.

On a slightly different note (and like you thought my comment was aimed at you personally), you may take the following point for you.
- I see somebody who has high standards a bit like one of the TV preachers ;)... You should spread the good word, show others the light and make yourself the messiah of the "highest standards" of all, and inspire others to follow your example. Super Ted, if you are good then try to do what it takes to inspire others to be the same... If you do, I promise you that if I see you in the sim, you will have me delighted.

I rest my case your honour.

[xuejiesandi]

Guys,

I am not sure if that's how any industry work. I mean

FAA CFII, 500+ hours, , CAAC verified, Half way to DGCA License. Ready to relocate even to Moon.

If this aint getting me an entry level or flight instructor job, then what might. Suggest please

[xuejiesandi]

thnx man!

I'll talk to them

[suso]

To all the new pilots:
I just heard of a new org. in Spain looking for volunters and sponsors to fly over the Sahara at least one week a month,dont think that you will get paid cos is a charity org. bringing food,medicines,peolple,... from Tifariti to Tindouf but they will take care of all your expenses(transport,acommodation and food).I know is not a proper job but you still building up your hours and helping others.
For this pilots looking for a bit of adventure visit: www.alassolidarias.org (http://www.alassolidarias.org)
or send yopur cv to [email protected]
Good luck and Happy flights!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

[leadinghedges]

Getting a flying job is all about right place, right time. The industry is cyclical but a silver lining may be that Aer Lingus are opening a Gatwick base in March. They will definitely be hiring. Year 1 f/o is about 40k and capt. is about 78k plus 7k sector which is taxed. They have taken self sponsored guys straight out of oxford and jerez and also low time turbo proppers. Losing heart is understandable but if you're not in it you can't win it.

[Rincewind3]

I've trained in New Zealand. Currently drop flying and living an eight hour drive from my wife and daughter, just to get some hours (the pay certainly isn't worth it). The accepted norm here is 1500 hrs minimum TT to get into turbo-props (realistically 2500). Jets? Try 4500-5000 minimum!

Harden up & do some GA work, get some real experience and hours. It'll happen, but only if you work for it.

[mattgitau]

Rincewind3, - you live in a very different aviation world to the realities of Flying career paths in Europe and the sub continent.

Telling someone from that part of the world to harden up and do some GA hours is of very little relavence over here. Maybe you should pull your head out of the sand and realise and appreciate that there is a whole world outside the NZ GA scene. I spent 5 years in GA in Australia, and now fly longhaul out of a major european city. I fly with a good mixture of guys and girls. A lot of the guys I fly with went straight into Jets with 200hrs, with the only piston aircraft flying they did was during their training. Many others went through the military, and have thousands of hours on fast jets, including flying in combat situations.

Its just a different world with different realities and opportunities. Your statement shows a degree of naiveness and narrow mindedness. I do appreciate how frustrating it is for you, hour building in NZ GA and living apart from your family - but remember, one-day you may well be sharing a flight-deck with these guys. Everyone takes a different route to get here - but in the end, it doesnt necessarily make you better or more superior to the person sitting next to you, and you may well end up being best of friends with some of these guys.....or at least have a lot of fun with them on an overnight.

Good luck to you - you will get there in the end and yes, it is worth it.....my advice, just don't make too many sacrifices along the way, with regards to your family. That time apart from them is time you will never get back.

Most of us get there in the end - and when we do, its a great level playing field.

[yycflyer23]

Me I went down a different road watching people in a higher classes then me have crap luck getting a job. So when I was taking my PPL I decided to go to community college and get in to intl business studies for a backup plan. This has not done me wrong. I have comfortable job that pays for me to get my hours and live life I suppose. All though I really want to become a pilot by trade (really badly do) it’s very important to always have a back up plan. My courses were subsidized with the college so it was not that much money. I have my CPL and all ratings. I’m always applying and won’t stop till I get that magical call... but for now i still get to enjoy flying recreationally and im fine with that for now..

Just keep at it... I live next to a B777 pilot for AA, he said it took years to get that call... he didn’t think he would make it but kept trying and got in. Now he’s living the life...:ugh:

[INDYMAN]

Joined the RAF at 18, was told I achieved the 3rd highest score ever on the selection tests. Got streamed for the fast stuff (Tornado GR1) .... had a flying accident which stopped me flying ...

3 years after surgery - started again.

Building hours and jumping through the CAA hoops and spending money - that was at the end of 80's ..... The mother of credit crunches!

Lost my house.

Tried to keep my hand in when I could whilst doing any job that came along.

Fast forward 10 years - found myself in the States with a CPL, I/R etc..
working as a flight instructor and happier than a pig in S**T!

That was until some foreign 'soldiers of religion' flew into a couple of buildings!!!

End of the flight training (long story!) divorce, and back to the UK. Got myself a job in the Ambulance Service in order to pay off the 'EX's' debts.

Done that now. Picked up the phone to the CAA and asked them what I need to do to get that ATPL!!!

Guess what ... starting groundschool this month ....

Moral - Don't ever give up!!!

I know that WHEN I get to that final interview for a job, there's no way they can question my desire and commitment!!!

[dartagnan]

when airlines called me asking me to pay for their lousy line training at 30'000$, I said simply :"go to hell".

now, I sleep well as usual, cuz I still have my money.I have never invested one penny in stock auctions of my life.
I worked hard all my life and if I still fly, it' s because I didn't sell my soul.

my other friends with their 100-300 hours of boeing line training, have no job, no money,...and will have to repay for their new line training if hired in 2012(maybe).

they are at home totally broke.
Life is wonderful when you have your own money!
I have seen some idiots who shot themself a bullet because they lost a few billions...suicide for money, what a bunch of losers!

don't give up, this market will restart.

[boogie-nicey]

I think 'scratchingthesky' makes a very valid point. Borrowing under the present climate is near suicidal for anyone aspiring to be a pilot. Try and stay focused, patient and update the game plan so that when things begin to look up you are ready to take advantage. However for now the name of the games is to take "no risks or gambles".

[mad_jock]

There are a few jobs out there even with payed type ratings.

They ain't in shiny jets.

Anyone that holds a type rating on any form of jet won't get a look in.

Instructors prefered.

Will anyone broadcast that they are going, will they hell. The 3 that I know of for 200 pilots are already choosen before they have completed training. All of the guys have got the jobs through networking.

[dartagnan]

2very good news for you:

1-the first good new is that banks don't give money anymore.
so most of us can only forget to become a pilot.

2-the second good news, is ICAO 4 is here. if you don't speak english, you will never fly for an airline.I think 80% of "dreamers" will give up.

in 2-3 years, there will be a shortage of pilots.I mean, a real shortage of pilots.

let's see, USA can not train muslim students. the FAA will implement the ICAO rule in may 2009.Banks will have to be restructured(loan departments).Several governments will inject money but in return will request some guarantees.India has eject their foreign copilots, resulting pay to fly scheme is dying.Asia is booming, specially china.

I believe this crisis is good for pilots, it will clean up the mess that airlines, and banks has created in the past. Only the motivated one will survive.

Oxford, Eagle jet, and all other expensive schools packed with dreamers, I say you bye bye...Modular training , and flight clubs will survive.

[clear prop!!!]

mmm...interesting spin on things!!

Baton down the hatches... I can hear www heading for the keyboard!!:)

BTW, what's happened to PPRuNe's clock? its now set at EST. Have you moved to LA for some sun??

[fireflybob]

Oxford, Eagle jet, and all other expensive schools packed with dreamers, I say you bye bye...Modular training , and flight clubs will survive.

dartagnan, nice summary, but where will the flight instructors for the clubs come from now?

[mad_jock]

Instructors very rarely came from OAT and the like in the first place. I can think of 3 in the last 6 years I have met. One was good and is a ppruner who posts occasionally and the other 2 left alot to be desired.

And most if not all instructors at these schools are modular trained. Makes you wonder if the product is that great why don't you get the product back to teach the next course. The RAF do it with there Creamy Instructors.

And as for dartagnan comments. Well actually there are a fair few people get through training without borrowing a single penny. How you may ask?

Actually its dead easy.... you get off your arse and go and earn it. There are loads of plumbers,builders, sparkys you name it profession wise someone will know someone who used to do that.

The english thing will sort itself out in a few years. Most youngsters worldwide now are getting very good at English thanks to the internet and the knowledge that English is a way to improve there lives. Give it another five years and they will be up to cloggy levels of English

Muslims can train in america but other factors relating to european rules may limit JAR training over there.

And as for a shortage of Pilots!!! never will happen in the wannabie stage of experence There is actually a shortage of pilots now in the turboprop LHS in various types. But that really doesn't help your 200 hour fresh cpl/IR holder

[flyer47]

Welcome to the airline industry. It's tough on the outside and with posts and attitude like that it's probably where you'll stay.

[dartagnan]

dartagnan, nice summary, but where will the flight instructors for the clubs come from now??

good questions, instructors come from the time, where everyone were paying lot of money to become an airline pilot, and the very few chap with a head on their shoulder,have instead invested money in a FI course.
the other guys from airlines, are now without jobs , and without 500 hours as a fi, it' s very hard to find a job as a flight instructor.

the result there is less instructors on this market. instructors are paid 2x time more than 10 years ago, included examiners.
One day, a flight instructor will be paid a fortune, let's say 6000$/month, instead of the 3000-4000$ I have seen.
everybody says flight instructing sucks! I have met several flight instructors who are now happy to fly.

anyway, just keep flying...dont' give up.:O

[mad_jock]

its maybe regional then

In uk there is no issue being a new start with zero hours as an instructor. In fact some CFI's prefer them that way and won't employ anyone who has worked in another school.

And $3000 a month is about 3 times the going rate for FI's in the UK. During winter they will be looking at $700-$1000 a month if they are lucky.

[crewingb]

Hi Guys,

This seems to be a flt deck forum! But it does say interviews for jobs. I
have justs been made redundant after nearly 8yrs. I was in the the pos
of crew rostering supervisor. Can anybody help me? Thanks!

Sorry 4 interupting ur flt deck forum!

Desperate messures prevail!

[matzpain]

I have a PPL and am looking to join the airlines. Anyone know the best route of getting there?

[matzpain]

Also is there anyone sponsoring people with PPLs?

[rotatejunkie]

Hi all!
hey any news of direct-entry post-ab-initio recruitment in the South-East Asian region ?

[flyhiguy28]

So where are all the jobs then??

Does anyone know of any useful job hunting websites for newly qualified FOs?

[roljoe]

Hi,

you could always have a look here..coffee loves milk | pilot jobs worldwide | who is hiring? (http://www.coffeelovesmilk.de/who_is_hiring.aspx)

[RawKnee]

Hey....Never Give Up Guys.....

The Electric Bulb was found after more than 1000 + attempts...

I personally come from a network background where ive known people getting their certification on the 16th-18th attempt....

[jcrews]

I've always wanted to be a pilot, like most people who decide to spend the absurd amount of money on training in the first place. If I might make a suggestion: pay for the flight training as you go instead of getting a loan at 10 or 12 or 14% (what they offered me). I have been flying for about 18 months and have obtained a PPL and IR without taking on any debt.
It's an option is all I'm saying. I was working job making alright money before I took an administrative position at a flight school along with a pay cut. But, it has enabled me to work toward my goal. And all of the free ground instruction does not hurt.
If you can stick it out for a couple of years without a loan, go for it. Flight instructing won't be as brutal if you don't have to fork over every paycheck to some greedy lender.

[xmad]

most of the pilots checking:

flightglobal.com (http://www.flightglobal.com)

ppn (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com)

aviation4you (https://www.aviation4you.com)

ppn (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/)

or others. ckeck google for "pilot jobs"

[santos dumont]

I've been flying since 10 years now and professionally for about 6. 4000 hours TT out of which 3000 on twin turboprops, more than half as PIC. I had the FAA licence and all my friends kept telling me to get my JAR licence as I am European. So I did and after a long time studying finally yanked a JAR license out of their hands in February this year.

Now where did all those jobs go ? I look up in the sky and there are still airplanes flying !

I am willing to pay for a typerating on a B737, A320 or ATR if I can be guaranteed to get a job in Europe. But where ? Anybody knows ? You may PM me with info on this.

[BelArgUSA]

if I can be guaranteed a job in Europe

Guaranteed airline pilot job... I looked for that word "guaranteed job" in my aviation dictionnary, but I look all over, the word does not exist. What I found is plenty of offers of type rating training. After all, the economy is down, and you should support your local FTO, I am certain, they will guarantee you any job, anywhere you wish.
xxx
My recommendation, if you want time in 737, book yourself on Ryanair. As a passenger of course. Passengers pay much less for "flight time" than RHS F/O trainees. Suggestion, empty your bladder before flight. Quite expensive to indulge in nature necessities on Ryanair...

[Pugilistic Animus]

The Airlines are not every thing many professional jobs exist,... but not on jets.

if you have another career and you're appropriately rated then you can be a professional pilot,...CFI, banners, Airtaxi, part 91 OPS, glider towing, Tour rides, Parachute jumps, all have merit; all offer great flying!!!!

You have to learn to look at that rusty ol'---- E-18, Apache, KingAir, C-182, etc..... and say that's a 'nice plane':)

or Fly the T7 on MSFS:} [don't do that:zzz:]

[santos dumont]

Yes, you guys are right on that one, not too many jobs out there. What I didn't convey clearly in my previous post was that I was willing to PAY for one of those ratings if I had to (and I think I'd have to these days however much I'd hate to do that), but I am also actively looking for ANY (or almost any) flying job in Western Europe that will keep some money flow, and I am surprised that with 4000 TT and 3000 twin turbine and lots of PIC time I am not able to find anything. I'm not giving up, but it makes me wonder what hope does a 200 hour pilot have these days !

[santos dumont]

Jet ? TRE ? Obviously they don't like the idea of working in India or China then.

[IT2Pilot]

If you are thinking of becoming a pilot, you should also consider costing an additional 20-30k for a type rating. Although there are many who will hate this idea, you will very quickly come to the realisation that there are only a handful of jobs and hundreds, if not thousands, of people are out there with around 250 hours and a CPL/IR qualification. Paying for a rating is here to stay, so just deal with it.

When you do your ATPL exams, there are usually a couple of hundred people sitting them each month. So imagine how much competiton that creates. So, if you were an airline recruiter, you will go for people with more hours, or people more recently qualified. If you cannot find a job, do an instructor rating. That way you get to build hours, gain experience and slowly emerge from the massive pool of people with 250 hours complaining that they cannot find a job. If you're smart, you would do an instructor rating before an IR in the current job climate. That way you can build hours and you won't have to pay for an IR revelidation a year later. Just make sure you get an IR before the ATPL period of validation expires.

Also be reallistic! Harsh, I know, but the shortage of pilots refers to a shortage of suitably qualified people, with experience. 250 hours is not a lot of experience, so consider becoming an instructor to get that experience. This often leads onto other things, like air taxi, or meeting people through the flight schools. The transition from twin prop to Jet is huge, so don't get upset if those operators simply ignore you. They get dozens of CVs every day, so simply don't respond. It takes some people years to get to where they want to be!..so in the mean time just keep flying and get yourself away from the huge group of people in the 250'ish hour bracket.

[Amin]

IT2 PILOT,

The problem is that there are no flight instructor jobs either.

[chief]

IT2Pilot Some good advice, however, don't always assume that the only way to get a job is paying for the standard 737/757/A320 type ratings which does cost the earth. I was so against paying for it when I qualified and still am, but unfortunately in todays climate and also in previous years it was very difficult to actually get a job.

I paid for a corporate jet type rating in the end which cost me £10000 - still expensive, but totally worth it in the scheme of things. I am fortunately employed by a great company and get to fly at the same speed as the airlines, fly upto FL450 and have also flown to so many airports over europe and nth africa, including the main airports such as Heathrow, Amsterdam, Munich etc etc.

I got my job with only 250 hours behind me, and yes, it took me nearly 5 years because of the repoccutions from September 11th that left many people unemployed with loads of flying hours. We are now hitting an even harder time in the market so to the people who are still actively looking, please stay patient. The Market will pick up. There are a lot of people who are in the same boat i.e. with 250 hours behind them but the one thing I will say and I am sure you have heard this many-a-times before is NETWORK NETWORK NETWORK. This is so important.

I didn't have the best grades from Flight School, I actually had to retake some of the exams 3/4 times...I hated them but persisted. I didn't get the best of reports from the flight school for my ATPL ground school. I renewed my IR every year but didn't fly during this time as I couldn't afford to spend, well, couldn't see the point in spending £200-£300 per month on a couple of hours here and there in a PA28. Although I left the industry for some time so I could try to make some money elsewhere, I persisted. I never gave up.

Spend some time at your local aiports, keep in touch with people who are employed now (but don't pester them!!) you never know just whats around the corner or who will be able to help you!!

If you really want it to happen it will.

[santos dumont]

Scratchingthesky,

You're absolutely right and I fully understand because I am in the same situation right now :{

Still keeping the hope up though !

[Dep676]

There just is not jobs anywhere for pilots. :(

[biitomd11]

Welcome to aviation world.

[bunnyhop]

gents im about to embark on a integrated course. going to cost me a fourtune. I must be mad. im hoping in a years time the current climate will have improved and airlines are looking for young guns

[Deano777]

Dream on bunnyhop

Sorry to ruin your day but in 1 year's time I suspect things to be even worse than now.

Read everything WWW has been saying in this (http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/335548-growing-evidence-upturn-upon-us.html) thread.

Also as I've said before even if there is an upturn in a year's time it's going to take another year at least for all the experienced pilots to be vacuumed up.

Good luck on the course though, and keep your chin up

[bunnyhop]

deano

Im having sleepless nights about all this. ive been reading this and other threads and i am concerned to say the least. how long is a faptl active for if you dont get a job after training??

[Deano777]

Someone who actually knows will correct me if I am wrong but I think your ATPL exams are valid for 7 years after the last one is complete provided you keep your IR current?

On a brighter note bunnyhop the best thing to do when you finish is to try and stay in aviation and keep current, think about an FI rating provided there is a job etc. It's a scary time for low houred wannabes and will continue to be for some time yet.
It's going to be a long hard road mate, be prepared.

[portsharbourflyer]

Just to clarify atpl credits are valid for seven years every time you renew or revalidate an IR, not from the date of the exams. But also remember that if someone exceeds five years without renewing an IR, then the renewal must then be taken with a caa staff examiner , so to be safe renew the I/R within five years.

[abtz]

there are some opportunities in some companys but the problem is from the recruiting agencies, like park , winwith , rishworth and almost all are ****** up. they are making money as broker. i decided not to use this agencies and pilots start to use their association in finding jobs.

[Deano777]

portsharbourflyer thanks for the clarification :ok:

[bunnyhop]

thanks guys, ive been offered a course at one school but im heading over to oxford in a few weeks for my assessment as it sems like a really good FTO. would you recommend it?

[Callsign Kilo]

Why does it seem like a good FTO?

A. Because they tell you that they are?
B. Because they are more expensive than others?
C. Because you get to wear a uniform?
D. Because they still claim that there is a global pilot shortage :confused:

Sorry to burst your bubble but be aware of the 'Kidlington Marketing Machine' TM. It really isn't the time to go blowing money on an integrated course.

[pilotmike]

bunnyhop, in your own words:Im having sleepless nights about all this. ive been reading this and other threads and i am concerned to say the least.
So you think you're having sleepless nights just thinking about the job situation, without even having committed to paying for a training course yet?

Just imagine how much worse your sleep would be if:

a) you had just committed to starting an integrated course costing some £80,000 you hope, all in, with a huge, expensive loan to cover it all hanging round your neck... or

b) you were just emerging from an integrated course having spent over £100,000, the more realistic true cost of training with everything factored in, and now realising that there are no jobs just kicking around. Then it slowly dawns on you that you might well need to invest a further £30,000 on a type rating to give yourself a better chance, and even then there are very few jobs available? And all along, the repayments on that huge loan are crippling you every month...

If the mere thought of starting training is causing you sleepless nights, then either stick with it and learn to enjoy it, or give up thoughts of starting integrated training for the moment. Either way, it is a bloody sight cheaper than having already spent / committed the money, which would undoubtedly give you much, MUCH worse sleep at night!

[IT2Pilot]

Anyone thinking about becoming a pilot should read some of the info available from BALPA. It is not easy to find a job. Even when you qualify, you are not quaranteed a job, and it may take a long time to get one.

Membership to BALPA is free to everyone until you get your first flying job, so make the most of it!...

The following is copied directly from the BALPA website and should give you some more things to think about:

https://www.balpa.org/The-Piloting-Profession/How-To-Become-A-Pilot.aspx

A Guaranteed Job?
There are a wealth of schools in Europe which offer Airline Transport Pilots Licence (ATPL) courses, which in theory will give you the ability to apply for your first job as a pilot with an airline. However, it is very important to understand that these training organisations rely on a constant stream of trainee pilots in order to stay in business, and that there may not be a constant supply of jobs in the industry.

The Hard Sell
Despite what the schools will often tell you, there is not a shortage of pilots in the industry, nor are there signs of one occurring soon. There may, however, be a shortage of experienced pilots, those who have several thousand hours flying commercial jet aircraft. There is a stark difference between the two, and unfortunately most people who finish their flight training, even from the mainstream schools who claim to have good connections with airlines, often find themselves unable to even apply for the vast majority of jobs because they lack the experience required. This is something which the training schools will never admit to, but you will need to be prepared for.

Bridging the gap between qualifying and gaining employment is fraught with difficulties, and often requires buying expensive additional training in the hope of finding a job. You need to think very carefully before you enroll on a flight training course, and decide whether you can afford to finish the course and not find a job. Getting onto an airline sponsored scheme where a job is offered upon completion may be the safest way, but there will be fierce competition for places on such schemes.

[philc1983]

Bunnyhop,

I would seriously consider putting your plans on hold for the moment. Oxford will tell you that the market will be good in a year's time but as someone said earlier, this will allow the more experienced pilots and FI's (at present) to be soaked up and make the transition to the airlines. It's pretty bleak at the moment and that's not doom and gloom only the truth.

In answer to the title on your post:
'Am i mad?'

errrrm at this moment in time, yes!

[bunnyhop]

ok fellas

My bubble is now burst so you should be sorry!

All points taken on board, i will put on hold for time being. No harm in going to do the assessment in oxford anyway. i might as well. Plus i've paid for it!

I know someone flying for aer lingus atm and they also have similar things to say about the lack of fo jobs for wannabes. I live at home still and have 10,000 saved up and was gonna loan 80,000 to do the course. I just dont know what to do.:confused:

cue more sleepless nights spent pondering what to do:(

Ps i registered on BALPA. thanks for that one. appreciate it

[Anonymus6]

bunnyhop,

There is a person in this forum that is called Wee Weasley Welshman, please read his posts that has been posted recently regarding jobs and other things. HE KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT. A lot of people think he is negative,, but they don't know what he is talking about.

I have been sending mor than 70s CV's out there and not even a respond back yet. Have 3 years commercial flying experience as well.

Good luck.

[Callsign Kilo]

Sorry for the change in topic, however does anyone know where Vito Carlone went? (the guy who started this thread?) Did he ever get a job? Hopefully not in aviation because he sounded like a right obnoxious little erk. However his plight did make me laugh. 6 months from qualification and he was ready to chuck in the towel because no airline was prepared to come to his rescue. People like that don't deserve jobs, no real passion for flying is ever evident. All they want is to sit in the right hand seat of a shiney airliner and have their egos caressed.

[Anonymus6]

Callsign Kilo!!

Sorry for the change in topic, however does anyone know where Vito Carlone went? (the guy who started this thread?) Did he ever get a job? Hopefully not in aviation because he sounded like a right obnoxious little erk.

So you deserve a job more than him!!!! Because you paid for your TR with Ryan Air!!!

[bunnyhop]

anonymus

read through a lot of his posts. heres one for you:


You'll thank me when you're rotting in the debtors jail.. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif

There's plenty of space here for inspirational posts that help motivate and inspire. That has always been an important function of this forum and I thank G Sxty for making it.

Just because we are entering a massive airline downturn is no reason to give up on dreams.

WWW

I have a dream (dramitic music playing in background) and WWW agrees with me! Well apart from all the other posts stating that there will be no need for pilots over the next few years.

Lads i really dont know what to do so im thinking just go for it and if i have to work two jobs and continue to live at home with mum and dad until something comes up after training is finished then so be it. I'll go anywhere to work, will fly whatever. Just the typical zombie wannabe as WWW would label me

[Anonymus6]

bunnyhop,

If you have the same attitude and motivation as you describe as above, once out of flight school. I'm sure you will get a job at the end. There are jobs out there, but you have to apply like crazy and get on the phone and hunt the HR or the chief pilot down.

I'm going for an interview myself next month in South Asia. After 70 Cvs at least something come up. :D

If you dream about flying day and night,,,then go for it!!!

Good Luck

[bunnyhop]

Anonymus

Happy days, glad you have an interview. hope you get it. thanks for the advice, really appreciate it. good luck

[Callsign Kilo]

Anonymus 6

Yes I did pay for my TR with Ryanair. And no I don't deserve a job more than anyone. Absolutely none of my posts ever suggest this.

One thing that I have noticed is this industry is riddled with petulance and sour grapes. People with huge chips on their shoulders thinking someone out there owes them something i.e. that chap Vito. I was merely interested in what became of him because his attitude suggested he wasn't deserving of anything.

[bunnyhop]

Kilo

Did you have to finance this yourself or do ryanair take it out of your pay??

[Callsign Kilo]

Financed myself - as was all my training. Not all loans actually (I have a very small loan by industry standards). A lot was paid for by cashing in an investment (pre-recession thankfully). A fortunate position to be in. Without it I would not be flying today.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Your ratings and license expires over time without gaining employment. Just because you can go and live with mum and dad and live for free doesn't make it any less idiotic to acquire an expensive time-expiring flying qualification when THERE ARE NO JOBS and there WILL BE NO JOBS for several years.

[bunnyhop]

WWW

How long does the CPL, APTL and IR last for after you complete it?

I know what you are saying but how can flying schools get away with telling you there are jobs out there if that is not the case. Im no lawyer, but is it not illegal to con people into spending 90k on a license if they are going to have no way of repaying that loan due to no jobs after training?

The guy at the flying school said that an airline would have twenty pilots per aircraft as a general rule of thumb and that they get asked for about 10 pilots every two months and sometimes more. Whats your thoughts??

[Seat1APlease]

Airlines are only looking for new pilots if:-

1. They are expanding
2. They have pilots leaving for other jobs who need replacing
3. retirement and natural wastage.

Since the average career is about 40 years, you would have to be about 3000 pilots strong do see that many retirements a year. Airlines are contracting at the moment so whilst there are as yet no mass redundancies, retirements are taking up the slack and there is little recruitment which means that moving on to greener pastures is no longer an easy option either.

I would be very surprised to see any increase in overall numbers needed until 2011/12 at the very earliest and apart form the carriers who exploit the new boys the experienced crews are going to get taken on first. The figure of 20 pilots/10 crews per aircraft is about right for a long haul operation but a low cost, charter or short haul operator would probably be closer to half that figure, depending on sector length, frequency, night stops etc.