SOUTHEND - 2

[approach24]

Think you'll find that the airport website has now been updated, with the airshow this year taking place on the 24th and 25th May - renamed 'Festival of the Air' !

[Expressflight]

Steviec9

The rail station is due to open in December and I believe they have hopes that this will entice at least one airline to SEN, hopefully from Spring 2010. Aer Arann have been mentioned but in the current economic climate it's anybody's guess. With trains every 20 minutes throughout the day it should make SEN-Central London journey times at least as good as for LTN and STN.

The Ramada hotel is due to start construction later this year, with the new terminal expected to open in 2011. Both of these projects already have planning consent. They have also been talking about a new control tower being built this year adjacent to the fuel farm, but seem to be treading water on that project at the moment.


Phase 2 of the re-development includes a 200m runway extension to give a useable runway length of 1,799m with an ILS being added on 06. That should enable A319/E195 operations to Med destinations to commence and it is hoped that it will be completed by late 2011.

[Steviec9]

Expressflight - thanks.

Here's hoping for SEN - with a bit of good PR to promote London Southend as a no-hassle airport only 40 or so mins away from Liverpool Street, it should have a fighting chance.

STN has lost its appeal since redevelopment, LHR, LGW and LTN are a nightmare from Essex/East Herts/Cambs/Suffolk and LCY tends to be expensive and suffers from slot availability (not to mention the diversions to SEN during inclement weather).

I see also that Stobarts are contemplating a Carlisle - SEN pax service, which would enable Carlisle - London Liverpool Street in about two hours. Sounds like it could work.

[SENFLYER]

According to the Southend Standard today all our local councillors have pulled out their backbone and done a u turn. Apparently supporting our airport is political suicide! Looks like nimbys are winning again typical southend. :ugh:

But wait! Is this a political "european election" vote for me ploy I wonder:*

[Expressflight]

SENFLYER

Is this a new story or just a rehash of the Echo story of 25 May?

If it's the latter I shouldn't place too much credence upon it.

[Chille Con Carnie]

Does anybody know why an area of ground is being cleared near the golf course? ----New control tower!

[maliyahsdad2]

looks like ground survey work today in the new hotel site too.

[panjandrum]

Nice to see that someone has put a site together pro the airport.
PlaneS - The support site for the extension of Southend Airport (http://planes2009.ning.com/):ok:

[WHBM]

Expressflight - thanks.

Here's hoping for SEN - with a bit of good PR to promote London Southend as a no-hassle airport only 40 or so mins away from Liverpool Street, it should have a fighting chance.
I don't know where the idea that it is 40 minutes away from Liverpool Street comes from. The airport station clearly will not generate enough traffic for extra dedicated trains to London, but would be a stop for the current train service.

At present these take, using the morning rush hour 0800-0900 as an example, 59-61 minutes from Prittlewell, and 4 minutes less from Rochford, so from a station between the two would take 57-59 minutes.

That is from departing, sat in a train, from the station platform. There is then the distance from the aircraft to be bridged, and waiting for the next train. It seems reasonable to allow 30 minutes for this, so the airport will actually be around 1.5 hours from Liverpool Street.

[Steviec9]

My original comments regarding the alternatives from East Herts, Essex, Suffolk etc stand.

On the above basis of waiting, transit time through (a much larger and busier) airport etc., STN doesn't have that much edge in the comparison. From personal experience, it can still take 40 minutes to get from plane to train (without waiting for baggage).

STN for example may be quicker by train from Liverpool Street, but it's Hades when you get there.

SEN would still be preferable for many, given the choice.

[Barnaby the Bear]

Its also has a direct link to Stratford (where a large sporting event is due to take place), Shenfield (future cross rail station) and also links up with the DLR and Central line.

At present the existing terminal is about 5 min walk from the station site. The proposed new terminal backs onto the station virtually.

I remember getting off my Low cost at STN, getting through baggage and joining the long queue at immigration, onto the station and finally getting onto a train.... Time 1hr05mins.

Small airports hold that advantage of reducing time getting through.

[Expressflight]

WHBM is being rather unfair in his comments.

Trains will depart SEN every 20 minutes during the day, so extra services will hardly be required - after all, the Stansted Express operates only every 15 minutes. There can surely be little doubt that touchdown to station platform times at SEN are likely, on average, to be less than at STN or LTN (this latter involving a shuttle bus journey over busy public roads), but even if this is ignored the actual rail journey times from SEN are very competitive:

SEN to Canary Wharf: 59 minutes (1 change at Stratford)
LTN to Canary Wharf: 74 minutes (2 changes)
STN to Canary Wharf: 75 minutes (2 changes)

SEN to Stratford: 43 minutes
LTN to Stratford: 80 minutes (1 change)
STN to Stratford: 58 minutes (1 change)

SEN to Liverpool St.: 58 minutes
LTN to Liverpool St.: 55 minutes (1 change)
STN to Liverpool St.: 46 minutes

With one change at Stratford, SEN is also just 70 minutes from such places as Oxford Circus, Bond Street, and London Arena.

I'm not trying to make out that SEN's travel times are streets ahead of STN or LTN, but simply that they will be very competitive and this, coupled with simpler and quicker terminal procedures, will make SEN a serious contender as a London airport.

[ELondonPax]

Whilst one wishes Southend all the luck in the world, there is still a mountain to climb in terms of public perception - that it could be a handy London airport.

One detail in Southend's favour is the rail ticket price. By that mystery combination of quantum physics and sheer madness that sets UK rail fares, Southend would be a competitive transfer price.
From appropriate main rail station.
Gatwick £9 (London Br route)
Luton £11.50 - but then an additional bus fare payable
Southend (Prittlewell) £13.50
Stansted £19

(All single fares)

[Expressflight]

Southend District Council, Rochford Council and SEN/Stobart have agreed a set of measures which would be included in the Section 106 Agreement which would form part of any planning approval for the planned runway extension.

Total movements would be limited to 53,300 per annum, of which no more than 10% could be freight flights.

Night movements would be limited to 120 per month (currently 900 per month) and 'preferred runway' procedures would be brought in in an effort to limit noise nuisance over Eastwood and Leigh-on-Sea (both being under the 24 departure flightpath).

An ILS would have to be installed on 06.

A property acquisition plan and home insulation grants would have to be made available by the airport owners.

It is anticipated that a planning application for the runway extension will be made within the next couple of weeks, with this involving a 300m extension to the existing runway to give a useable length of 1,799m while increasing the length of the 06 overrun RESA to around 150m(?).

[F14]

Great news. Still think that 1799m is too short though, not sure what types of aircraft can operate, especially in the wet. From experience I would say 2100m is about the shortest that jets can use year round. I remember an old plan to build a new runway 09/27 starting at the threshold of 24.

Apart from London City diversions, maintenance and the flying club. I can't see how airport will grow? Any idea what types, they are trying to attract. B737-800? or A319 ?

[Expressflight]

I understand that the extended runway will meet Easyjet's SOPs for the A319 as well as Flybe's E195s. The 738 would be greatly restricted, but I think the 735/737 could operate satisfactorily from 1,799m.
I think a runway of that length will attract quite a bit of airline interest, especially with the rail station opening next Spring.

[Red Four]

The planning application for the proposed runway extension is being submitted today to Southend BC, according to local radio.

[dublindispatch]

I did here rumours all be it was the tail end of Summer 08 that someone had been looking at DUB-SEN-DUB or even SEN-DUB-SEN, at the time thought a bit odd but now not really as the Canadian and Ameriacan Olympic teams are all going to be based in Ireland to get aclimatised prior to the Olympics so maybe not such an odd route, it very much an Aer Arran kind of route option i would have thought

[Expressflight]

Aer Arann were certainly high on SEN's list of target airlines last year. I believe they hoped the opening of the rail station would be the catalyst to gaining routes and this is scheduled for Spring 2010.
Mind you, the financial climate has changed somewhat in the past year or so.

[Expressflight]

The planning application for the runway extension has indeed been lodged with Southend Borough Council and involves a 300m extension to the existing 1,605m runway to give a TODA on both runways of 1,799m (the maximum for a Code 3C runway which it will remain due to its 37m width). The balance of the paved length will form the enlarged RESA at the Eastern/railway end.

Following this planning application and the draft Section 106 agreement agreed with the Council last week, another planning application has now been made to Rochford District Council for the construction of a new control tower. The plans show this to be some 90 feet in height with its location being shown as between the existing Eastern taxyway and the railway line, just North of the new station car park currently under construction. The station work itself has now progressed from the groundworks with structures starting to be built above ground.

If this wasn't SEN, with its long history of promising much and delivering little, you could actually be excused for thinking that this is the beginning of a new era for the place.

[dublindispatch]

Very tru and I think Aer Arran have been hit hard by the untimely death of the Celtic Tiger!

[student88]

Hi guys!

Need your advice if you don't mind. I'm doing a photography project at college and need to get some close up shots of RJ100/146 aircraft. Are there many in storage at SEN close to the access roads? I've been down to LCY and have taken some nice shots, just need some detail ones!

Regards, S88 :ok:

[Expressflight]

I believe there are about 15 146/RJs at SEN at present, so there should be good opportunities for photography.
I would suggest you contact Inflite Engineering at SEN who have charge of a number of such aircraft at present, or 'phone the airport switchboard and ask to speak to Alastair Welch or his PA who might be able to facilitate things for you.

[student88]

Thank you Expressflight! I'll do that for sure. :)

S88

[Expressflight]

News which could be beneficial to SEN's aspirations to establish scheduled services is that, a few days ago, the High Court rejected Carlisle farmer Gordon Brown's appeal for a Judicial Review of Stobart's plans for CAX.

The modernisation of CAX necessary to bring it up to airline operational standards can now go ahead. Their new Airport Director, Andy Judge, was quoted in the press last week as saying that he hoped that scheduled services could start as early as Autumn 2010. It is assumed that a CAX-SEN link, with the possibility of through flights to a European destination, would be the first route to be established.

[Expressflight]

Final agreements have been signed with Network Rail and National Express Anglia which will enable the £12 million station to be completed and open by early May 2010. Track 'possession' dates have been agreed to enable the necessary trackside work to be completed by the end of the year.

The new control tower has also received planning consent this week.

A Rochford District Council meeting on Thursday voted to support the runway extension planning application and that recommendation will be passed to Southend Borough Council. A decision by SBC is expected at the end of January 2010.

[LGS6753]

It seems that G-EZBK, operating EZY8868 from ZRH to LGW has just diverted in to Southend.

[SENFLYER]

First of many if they can keep from going white top and are lucky enough tostay in cat 1 conditions. That'll pay a few bills.

[SENFLYER]

The new control tower construction is due to start at the end of this month for anyone interested.

[Steviec9]

Diversion
It seems that G-EZBK, operating EZY8868 from ZRH to LGW has just diverted in to Southend.


??? I thought the whole problem with SEN was the length of the runway for 737/A320 types with pax on board? If it can take diversions, why can't it handle these types at other times?:confused:

[SENFLYER]

Steviec9, Landing is not so much of a problem. But taking off with fuel, passengers and baggage on the current runway would see you in the field at the end. The problem at the moment is that you take passengers as far as normandy with hand baggage then refuel to get anywhere else :ugh:. With the new runway extension the same aircraft you mentioned will be able to take off with the passengers,fuel and baggage, that means airlines/ passengers will be able to use the airport for usefull flights. The airport will still not be able to handle cargo or noisy medium to wide body aircraft. Which is all good :ok:

[Steviec9]

SENFLYER thanks - understood, I wasn't aware that loaded landings were possible with the larger types.

Here's hoping SEN gets a new lease of life soon with the station, extended runway etc. I for one will be happy to have a smaller airport alternative to STN, LGW and LHR only 40 odd mins from Liverpool Street and Stratford.

[HZ123]

According to Tracey Boles and Alastair Welch SEN is ready for take-off! It will bea gateway air port the size of SOU! Runway extension decision expected on January 20.

[ORAC]

Stobart gets ready for jets (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/markets/article.html?in_article_id=497696&in_page_id=3&position=moretopstories)
Tom McGhie, Financial Mail

Trucking firm Eddie Stobart is expected to get permission this week to extend the runway at Southend Airport in Essex. Once Stobart has been given the go-ahead by the council, it will add 300 yards to the 1,755-yard strip, which will make it possible for jets such as the Boeing 737 and Airbus 319 to land at the airport.

The plan then is rapidly to develop the facilities so that the airport can cope with two million passengers a year by 2014. The first passengers flying on larger planes are expected to use the airfield later this year. Stobart bought Southend Airport last June as part of a plan to develop a UKwide transport network using its trademark trucks, trains, waterways and now planes.

As part of the company's train expansion, it plans to open a new rail link to the Stratford Olympic site in east London by May.......

[Expressflight]

It's a pity the train station isn't open yet, as LCY diversions are currently pouring into SEN.

[serko]

this has been called in for a public enquiry now.

[iwhak]

Is it not highly unusual and asking for trouble, no matter what you are told by officials, to issue an announcment on any planning decision prior to official announcement, I was most surprised by Mr Welch's comments last weekend. Maybe it's just me!

[NorthSouth]

this has been called in for a public enquiry nowA tad previous serko. The council planners don't consider the application until tomorrow.
NS

[maliyahsdad2]

Not called in but the Minister wants to look at it if the council give the go ahead. He will then sign it off or call it in.

Southend Airport plan: Government intervenes (From Echo) (http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/local_news/southend/4858620.Southend_Airport_plan__Government_intervenes/)

:*

[Expressflight]

serko is nearly right.

What seems to be the situation is that the Secretary of State, John Denham, has ruled that he will review any planning consent agreed at tommorrow's meeting before it can be officially granted. He may decide to rubber stamp the consent, or he may decide to call for a Public Enquiry.

[panjandrum]

Word from the council offices is yes, (14 to 3).:ok::ok::ok:

[frostbite]

I have an uneasy feeling about this.

Conservative Council, Labour Minister, General Election looming........

[Leofric]

The alternative, given their usual speed, is that he will leave it for his successor to deal with after the election.

[student88]

G-EZJV landed into SEN yesterday. Am I right in thinking that this is for end of lease MX and paint job?

[runwayman]

Work on the new control tower 'officially' started yesterday with the marking out work!.

[F14]

Good to see after all these years things starting to take shape :ok:

I'm struggling to find real information, does anyone know the

TODA,LDA,TORA and Stopway ???

I read they are currently looking at 1799m plus 80 starter extension (I presume on RW24 due the railway embankment) another report says the Current Runway is 1600m and the extension is 300m plus 80m starter extension.

1800m is short but a usable length for a B738, only this or the A319(not sure the max pax on this one) can get the numbers of pax predicted 2m, with the number of departures allowed under the environmental study. (4 aircraft(175 seats), 8 sectors, 363 days a year) = 2,032,800 per annum. by 2016

Looks like FR operation

[Expressflight]

F14

The figures for both runways will be:
TORA 1739m
TODA 1799m
ASDA 1739m
LDA 1604m
The Starter Extension on 06 (not 24) is there to give both runways the same figures and is necessary due to the increased length RESA between the end of TORA/ASDA on 06 and the railway.
RESA on 06 stop end will be increased to 150m and that for 24 will remain at 240m, but without the present roadway between the runway and its RESA.
1799m is not really enough for economic 738 operations so it's EZY with their A319s (full pax load to the Med destinations should be possible) that they'll be targeting as a lo-co operator I assume. I don't think they want FR in fact.
The movement cap of 53,500 pa does not limit the number of ATMs in any way (other than at night) so any mix of types can easily provide 2mppa.
ILS will be added to 06 so increasing SEN's appeal to operators and the new terminal/rail station combination should give potential transfer times from aircraft to train of as little as 10 minutes.
All in all this should make SEN a viable option as a London arrival/departure point.

[tommyc2005]

I wonder if they will also be targetting airlines like Germanwings, Air Berlin and Transavia and looking to poach their ops from other London airports....all should easily clear those limits and may benefit from slightly shorter flying distances. Plus Transavia seem to like changing London airport every couple of years. Norwegian could be another contender.

[F14]

Nice info Express Flight.

Yep it's too small for the B738. Problem is I can't see Easy going there, small airports aren't their style LGW/STN/LTN. FlyBe could do it, but their planes are too small for proper low cost.


The new runway needs to be 200m longer TORA/LDA. Or maybe they should look at re-opening my favourite Bradwell Bay ?
:}

[Expressflight]

SEN will never have a runway longer than 1,799m, even assuming that actually happens, as its runway width limits it to being Code 3C. It cannot be widened because strip width limitations (the church) would preclude it.
Mind you, compared to its current declared distances 1,799m will transform its prospects/ambitions to become a real contender in the London market.
I would have a little bet on EZY actually for reasons which I won't reveal here at the moment.

[SENFLYER]

I would put money on Ezy and a couple of others too. Hey where is the new tower going? Adjacent the new terminal site before Seawing or northside? Tried to look up the plans at the council but didn't have them avail at the time.

[runwayman]

Air Livery have been sold to Airworks of India with American financial backing there will be no change to the hangar at Southend as they get a lot of work from ATC Lasham & Inflite as well as there own ad-hoc work here.

[SENFLYER]

One of the construction lorries has crashed into the perimeter fence and dragged the fenceline into G-BOLW's (seawing fc) tail plane. Could have been worse if the truck had kept going with more a/c next to LW it would have been like domino's.

]Imageshack - gbolw.jpg - Uploaded by kjm2504 (http://img222.imageshack.us/i/gbolw.jpg/)[IMG]

[Barnaby the Bear]

And even worse if they had all then exploded in a huge ball of fire destroying the nearby on-site station construction site before plummeting to the earth. :ugh:

Ever thought of writing for the local rag? :rolleyes: :ok:

[runwayman]

The framework of the railway station is beginning to be erected today the footbridge across the track will be erected at the end of this month.

[maliyahsdad2]

WOOHOO!!!!!

Southend Airport expansion gets go-ahead from Government (From Echo) (http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/local_news/southend/5072078.Southend_Airport_expansion_gets_go_ahead_from_Govern ment/)

RUNWAY GO AHEAD!:D

[runwayman]

Fantastic news the government inspector John Denham has upheld Southend Borough Councils decsion and approved thr runway extention after so many years of waiting the airport is going to be up again where it belongs. BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Barnaby the Bear]

Also in the local paper today to demonstrate the progress at Southend.

Airport station is taking shape (From Echo) (http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/5070213.Airport_station_is_taking_shape/)
:ok:

[Nubrawarriors]

Perhaps the beginning of the end of getting up at 03.00 in the morning to catch those early flights from Luton and Stansted.

Hooray

Phil

[ericlday]

Thats if SEN get the destinations that 'you' want. We will wait and see.

[Toxic Thrust]

I am amazed to hear that all the developments have been approved with such ease after so many years of dissapointment. I do feel sure that Southend has now sealed itself with a much brighter future. I almost feel tempted to plan my return to revell in a slice of the action! :)

[HZ123]

Agree! It could not possibly get any worse than the last couple of years. However, lets be in no doubt LTN & STN will fight with cost reductions to ensure they are not the lossers to SEN. There may be a lot more pain to overcome as the 2012 Olympics Target is surely out of sight now as a launch for a whole new SEN?

[boredcounter]

Could they not focus on LON traffic from operators not equiped with LCY capable equipment? LoCo's as a secondary income for sure.

Whatever way, SEN started my career back in the 80's as a local lad and I would love to see this airport have new life.

Good luck SEN

[HZ123]

For sure alternate airlines can look to tap the LCY market. Once again whether there is enough business to support 2 airports on similar markets is questionable.

There might well be BACX work as the Jungle jets are involved in weekend charters throughout the summer and they could most certainly operate from SEN rather than EDI / GLA.

Eitherway it is not going to be easy (no pun intended) to get new business in for the next few years.

[pabely]

Unless you live in a SS postcode I can't see them hurting LCY, STN or LTN. Even the airports own published catchment area is not very large.
As an overflow this is good but they have missed the boat as far as 2012 and time will tell. I'm sure the business plan will benefit the owners investment.
Shall I still be able to land a Cherokee in between the EZY & RYRs, I think so...

[Nakata77]

SEN catchment is what, 1m?

It cannot compete with LCY business/frequency
It cannot compete with STN/LTN LCC's or charter

A Palmair style operation would be PERFECT for SEN. Catering for the very local and immediate needs of the catchment. Also some limited Flybe services could do well as it would operate lower capacity aircraft & on routes that LCY couldnt profitably offer. I would assume AMS, DTV, BLK, EXT, LPL, EDI, DUB would be good starting points from 2012 when terminal opens.

By the way can people understand this this runway extension will not allow for unlimited op's by 737/319 family. It will allow for a runway operation much like SOU's. The very odd 737 movement but mostly jungle jets & props.

[Barnaby the Bear]

There is no reason why Southend won't capitilise on the Olympics. Its fairly tight, but I get the impression they won't be holding back now that the local Councils permission has been upheld..

As for Airlines, there is plenty of scope for Southend to compete with LCY, LTN or STN especially with the onsite station. The Liverpool street line has Stratford (Olympics) and Shenfield (Cross rail).

Remember they are looking at 2m pax per year by 2020.

am amazed to hear that all the developments have been approved with such ease after so many years of dissapointment.

I doubt the operators would agree that its been with ease. :ugh::ok:

[Expressflight]

One of SEN's advantages will be its ease of access from Western Europe compared to LCY, LTN and even STN. If we really are expecting fuel costs to continue to rise over the next decade, then shorter flight times and the elimination of holding delays will become ever more relevant to airlines' decisions as to their London gateway.
I can tell you that the management are determined to meet the 2012 Olympics deadline and, barring any legal challenge to the approval, I believe they can do it. It's tight certainly, but Stobarts have the logistic ability to push ahead rapidly and get it done.
One destination that I would add to those already suggested is CGN, plus CAX if things work out as planned there.
There will be no RYR as the extended runway will not be 738 capable - not that they would have considered RYR anyway. My guess is that EZY will be the likely LoCo, with Flybe operating schedules and charters, plus a couple of Continental operators using SEN as a new London gateway, with Aer Arann as another strong possibility.
Like Toxic Thrust I'm almost tempted to get back into the game - but only 'almost'.
A tremendous effort was needed by the management and many others behind the scenes to get to this stage and if the plans are fully implemented SEN will become a superb airport within a couple of years.

[screwballburling]

Anyone have the distances available, when the runway extention work is completed and approved?

[Red Four]

Runway 06 Current/Future
LDA 1285/1604
TODA 1544/1799

Runway 24 Current/Future
LDA 1399/1604
TODA 1591/1799

Runway Length Current/Future 1605/1905

[Expressflight]

......... and TORA/ASDA will be 1,739m on both runways.
See post 297 for info on RESAs etc..

[ryanair1]

EZY would never consider SEN unless they are hoping mad. If they do, it's good news for the likes of us (Ryanair) but i'm pretty certain there is more chance of Monica Lewinski running for president.

[screwballburling]

Thanks ExpressFlight.

I have watched SEN dying a slow death for the last 30 + years, so finally a little good news.

[Expressflight]

ryanair 1

The tone of your post makes me even more confident that EZY will be looking hard at SEN for 2012. At least there's no chance of your mob spoiling the party I'm very glad to say.
I flew with your 'airline' twice in the past couple of weeks - if only I had a decent choice to do otherwise from here I'd jump at it.

[Jamie-Southend]

Personally I think that one of the MODS should consider deleting daz211 insulting reply.

There are a handful of very knowledgeable SEN followers in this section, that like everyone else, deserve some respect.

[PPRuNe Pop]

His post has been deleted and has been given a ban. He deserved it.

[WHBM]

Meanwhile back at the airport .......

Commercially I would offer a few comments. Firstly, about Olympic traffic. Do bear in mind that the Olympics are for two weeks. Making significant capital investments on the basis of traffic in this period is just inappropriate. You are OK if you are the Olympic Delivery Authority and can reach into public funds for whatever you want, and don't have to care whether it is wasted afterwards, but that doesn't apply to commercial investment.

Secondly, regarding the train service, it wil be 55 minutes to Liverpool Street, eight stops along the way, in a suburban-standard train which usually has many standing passengers in the morning approaching London, and leaving there in the evening. That's a long journey in such a train. It's not even the main railway from Southend to London (that goes to Fenchurch Street). Another 15 minutes is what it takes by train from London Euston to Birmingham Airport station, at the same frequency and in a proper long-distance train. Despite this, Birmingham airport has never made any headway at all in attracting passengers from Greater London.

Lastly Southend is in a poor geographical position, as it has no catchment area to the south or east, and because of inadequate access very little to the north as well. There is not a lot of commercial or industral activity in the town, which really functions as an extended commuter suburb for Greater London. The only way it got any traffic in times past was by handling overflow traffic from London, traffic which has now diverted for the business world to London City, and for low cost to Stansted.

This is why the once substantial traffic (well, in summer, it always fell right away in winter, and it was long, long ago) has been lost. Think Manston, in a very similar geographic position, they have had similar success, or lack of it, in attracting traffic.

Yes, it's OK for a jolly in my PA28, which gives a fine view of all the uninhabited Essex marshland that surrounds the town, and as a storage area for unwanted jets. But as a base for a significant commercial operation at adequate frequencies, I can't see where they will get the passengers from.

[Expressflight]

WHBM

Regarding the Olympics, it's actually more like a 5 week period including the Paralympics but that's not really the point. The Olympic 'boost' is, I believe, seen more as the catalyst for airlines commencing services to/from SEN, particularly in the case of Continental operators. There would be no capital investment needed just to service the Games themselves, but it would give any new service a good start.

As far as the train service is concerned there is no prospect of SEN users not having seats to London and that prospect only exists for a very limited late afternoon period from London. They may encounter standing passengers en route, but I suspect that LTN users suffer likewise. The trains themselves are also likely to be of very similar standard to those serving STN and LTN. I don't see how the Euston to Birmingham International station comparison is valid, not least because you have to board another 'train' to BHX itself after your 70 minute journey from Euston. The Southend to Fenchurch Street line is complementary to that to Liverpool Street; there's no question of one or the orther being the "main railway" while that to Liverpool Street is marginally faster in fact.

SEN may not have a catchment to its East or South, but it has a very good one to its West and that from the North has much easier access nowadays with Chelmsford to SEN being a shorter drive than to STN. The total catchment is what counts surely. Its 'local' catchment (that giving a saving of 20 minutes in driving time from any other airport) is 608,000, while its equal distance catchment is a further 410,000. Its catchment for an equal train travel time from a mainline station is 1,583,000. Its Continental catchment for inbound traffic has to be added to this and that is virtually limitless and is an element often forgotten by critics of SEN.

The main reason that SEN lost its previous traffic levels of 700,000 p.a. is simply because the runway became too short for jet traffic and it was further shortened in 2003 when RESAs became mandatory. Any comparison with MSE once the SEN development plan is completed is way wide of the mark in my view.

One advantage that you don't mention is the reduced flight times from Western Europe which SEN will offer. An inbound from AMS or CGN is likely to arrive SEN much earlier than any departures from the same points to STN, LTN or LCY. Likewise, airport transit times will be speedier with 10 minutes looking possible from touchdown to station platform or car park with hand baggage, while the fastest I have done that at STN is 20 minutes. If an airline can offer its customers a quicker overall journey time into London by using SEN than does LTN or STN, then SEN comes into consideration. If it can also offer shorter flight times within that then it becomes an even more interesting proposition.

I'm not saying attracting airlines quickly will be easy, particularly in the current economic climate, but if the offering is right I believe they will succeed - not least because incoming airlines will be immune from the predations of RYR, which is not an insubstantial consideration in my view. Stobart's are the last people that one would label as being naive and I cannot recall any other UK airport where so much has been invested in such a short time with a runway extension, completely new terminal, new control tower and on-airport railway station. They at least must be convinced it will all produce substantial results.

[HZ123]

Both last two posts are interesting prospects or not? I have grave concerns about the surrounding access which cannot be made any better than it is. The A127 is the pits as are road journeys into London or anywhere else if it involves the M25. For much of the rush hour the roads around SEN are gridlocked and then come the summer - when and if we get one day trippers make the situation worse.

Unlike SOU which I can see as a model for SEN, SOU had substantial business around it and quick travel using the M3, look how many years it took to get it viable/likewise LCY.

I have grave concerns that are repeated often here that at the end of this exercise the runway will still be to short to support Loco which it will need to grow. While/or if all this going, STN and LTN will not sit back if SEN starts to take business from them. I hope to be proved wrong but have grave doubts and I see no-one amongst the Stobbart group that has knowledge / experience of such a major detour from their core business.

[22/04]

I DO think SEN could handle a limited sunspots programme, with some focus on those in Golden age, wither by a Palm Air type operation or a FLYBE/Easy operation, with a based aircraft or W pattern operation.

It could also sustain a weekly W operation to one or two ski resorts.

And maybe a twice daily to EDI,GLA or DUB on an ATR or Dash.

If that's what Stobart have in mind backed up by some biz-jet, and GA it might work. Is there an FBO like Harrods at Present -if not it needs one.


Most comments seem to be orientated around two extremes here - gloom and doom or seas of Orange- the latter is not imagineable.

[Expressflight]

I agree with HZ123 regarding road access, particularly during the rush hour periods, but the new link road from the A127 will help.
What isn't in the public domain is the reaction they have had from prospective airlines, which I understand has been extremely positive. Perhaps 22/04 should add some Continental departure points to his list of potential routes.
I know that I'm a passionate supporter of SEN so my glasses might be slightly rose-tinted, but I'm also by nature something of a pessimist and yet I really believe this will work. A re-developed SEN will always be something of a 'niche' operation with runway length always coming into the equation, but I believe it's a big enough niche to generate the planned 2 mppa. As some will know, I've been close to this expansion project for 18 months so perhaps what I've learned as a result gives some cause for optimism.

[Nubrawarriors]

Dear HZ123

One thing is for sure and that is Southend has substantially more aviation related business on site than Southampton. Last time I was at SOU it had one FBO and one engineering firm. SEN may not have an independant FBO but I am sure it will come as it is on the published plans. Also we 6+ engineering companies and numerous other aviation companies, myself included.

As for the surrounding areas your are correct about the geographical limitations pertaining to catchment area and access. The morning commute for me from the east side of town is not that bad, but one accident on either the A13 or A127 can have serious knock on effects. Not as bad as the M25 though.

As for local enterprise supporting the growth of the airport, I think we have substantial in the A13/127 corridors, especially with the growth of the Thames Gateway Port, which combined with SEN airport expansion will generate new business in the area.

Regards Phil

[shamrock7seal]

What implications will development & growth at Southend have on the possible new London airport in the Thames Estuary?

I doubt they would ever allow two airports in such close proximity to operate and thats not to mention the overlapping catchments.

[frostbite]

The 'Thames Estuary Airport' has been talked about for decades.

IMO, it's a total non-starter both on cost and environmental grounds. Won't happen.

[Brian Fantana]

Does anybody know how many, if any, B757 are in store/on maintenance in SEN at the moment and what age are they and with what engines RR/PW they have on them. Thanks.

[Expressflight]

There was an interesting story in the Financial Times earlier this week in which they interviewed Andrew Tinkler at SEN. He spoke of his aim in seeking a European airline partner to establish a network of European scheduled services from SEN with the aircraft carrying Stobart colours. Whether he has in mind an ACMI operation with Stobarts doing the sales and marketing under the carrier's AOC, or the carrier operating the services in their own name with just the aircraft in Stobart livery isn't stated.
There is also a slide show of aerial stills alongside the story which show progress on the rail station and control tower etc., taken at the time of the FT's visit to SEN. You need to register at ft.com to read the story, but that is free of charge and simple to do.

[dvz]

Hi
Not sure if this is the right forum but.....can anyone assist with the same low flying passenger/cargo (?) plane which frequently, ie hourly on some days, can be seen heading from the direction of SEN over towards Rayleigh then Basildon and onwards? Re-appears during the day. Convinced I am not imagining it.
Thanks

[Hollymead]

Stobart?s bid for airline of its own (From Echo) (http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/7994538.Stobart___s_bid_for_airline_of_its_own/)

[controlx]

Easyjet 737's could use the new runway economically but Ryanair's couldn't - underpowered and therefore more constrained.

[boredcounter]

' “Eighty-five per cent of freight is usually carried on a passenger plane. By putting freight under the seats we can offer that service and help operators fill freight space. It’s better coming under seats than separate planes. '

Can't see it work on a 20 min turn LoCo................

better to stick to freighters for freight ex SEN IMHO, worked very well in the 80's

Bored

[serko]

"Can't see it work on a 20 min turn LoCo................

better to stick to freighters for freight ex SEN IMHO, worked very well in the 80's "

I guess it depends on any contracts Stobart can get and the rumours about them starrting their own branded airline. They currently ship a lot of fruit and veg from Valencia for example. I guess some of this could be more time critical and could benefit from airfreight. If they run the airline themselves and can make money from the freight side they can build longer turnarounds into the schedule. The money they lose in less rotations could be offset by the cargo revenue.(this is not just the airfreght revenue, but typically they would truck it in Spain from the location to the airport and from Southend airport to the customer. A similar service could possibly work for flights to Cologne, for JIT parts for Ford.

[Expressflight]

The new control has now been 'topped out' and is structurally complete, and it will come into service in February next year.
The train station is also on schedule to be operational by September and trains have carried out platform trials in the last week or so.
Stobart have submitted detailed plans for the £10 million, 129 room airport hotel with construction expected to start late Spring next year.
Work on the new link road (which will enable Eastwoodbury Lane to be closed) is scheduled to begin in three months time and only once that is completed can the runway extension work itself be carried out.
Finally, it is expected that work on the new passenger terminal will have begun by the end of this year, which once completed next year will make possible 'aircraft to station platform' times of just a few minutes.
SEN management say they are confident that all will be in place to allow the airport to play an important role for the 2012 Olympics traffic.
Assuming all this goes to plan, a total transformation in SEN's fortunes will have been achieved in just a couple of years.

[Nubrawarriors]

More importantly, aircraft to my bed in under 30 minutes.

Regards Phil:D

[shamrock7seal]

I take it ''your bed'' is a key consideration for the people of Southend after disembarkation? You must be a stallion my friend.

[Barnaby the Bear]

Southend Airport expansion 'on target for 2012' (From Echo) (http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/local_news/southend/8242903.Southend_Airport_expansion__on_target_for_2012_/)

New hotel planned for Southend Airport (From Echo) (http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/local_news/southend/8227350.New_hotel_planned_for_Southend_Airport/)


http://www.flysouthend2012.com

:ok:

[Nubrawarriors]

Dear Shamrock

I wish, more of a 'one trick pony' I would say.

Regards

[Nubrawarriors]

Further to my earlier communication, a friend of mine went to a Chamber of Commerce sponsored event in the terminal building at Southend Airport this Tuesday past. The head of business development, Mr Jonathan Rayner said the the airport management were hoping for a 25 minute landing to car time period for pax. This of course fits nicely into my projected 30 minute timescale to my house/front door/bed, whatever.

Regards Phil

[SWBKCB]

Quote in the Carlisle News and Star from Richard Butcher, Stobart’s deputy chief executive about the redevelopment of Carlisle Airport, at a meeting of the Cumbria Logistics Employers’ Forum at Brunton Park, Carlisle, yesterday.

“We are committed to the scheme, we are not going to walk away. There are some issues with local farmers but we believe we can get there. We are not going to give up, we want to safeguard the jobs of our people and working with the council we believe we can do that. We are close to agreeing a deal with an operator to run flights from Southend (the airport Stobart owns in Essex) and there is the prospect of flights to Carlisle as part of that. They wouldn’t be every day but if Cumbria wants to move forward it has to improve its transport links. It won’t be Heathrow, or Manchester, or even Blackpool, but we believe it will happen. Despite what people think, Stobart will not walk away from Carlisle and Cumbria; the company’s roots are here and it is important to us.”

[maliyahsdad2]

Just over an hour to go before Steve Noujaim is due to land at Southend with a new record for the Henshaw Challenge.

The Cape Challenge, flight record bid (http://www.capechallenge.com/index.php)

:D

Thread here http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/425438-new-challengers-henshaw-stobbart-record-3.html

[Barnaby the Bear]

Southend Airport hotel given go ahead (From Echo) (http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/8379342.Southend_Airport_hotel_given_go_ahead/?ref=mr)

More good news for Southend. :ok:

[panjandrum]

Just to let all know, The Southend ILS is due to be taken out of service from 20th September for several months, due to airport development works. We will only have NDB/DME approaches, (and SRAs during radar hours), so please take this into account this winter if you are in the habit of using us for Instrument Training, or as a bad weather alternate.

Apologies for the inconveniences this may cause, but it is necessary in order for developments to take place.

NOTAM C4195/10 refers.

[airferries]

Will there be any associated reduced runway distcances this winter as a result of the development? If so, I can't expect there will be any LCY diversions this winter.

[panjandrum]

Some are expected, but dates and details have not yet been finalised. Details will be NOTAMed when confirmed.

[DjerbaDevil]

Could anyone tell me if there are two B757-236 airframes at Southend Airport with registrations N945BB and N946BB from China Southern Airlines and whether they are stored? One would have arrived on 12 February 2010 and the other on 1 May 2010. Thanks for any info.

[weido_salt]

So come the games, the whole new airport will be up and running, including the extended runway? If so, excellent news.

[Expressflight]

The quoted NOTAM actually has the ILS u/s w.e.f. 0800 13 September 2010 (not 20 September) for a three month period. I believe this is due to the construction work on the new road link to the A127 which will allow Eastwoodbury Lane to be closed. I seem to recall that the planning consent stipulated that work on the runway extension can only begin once the new road is open.
The plan now seems to be that both the runway extension and the new terminal, on which work is also due to start this month, shall be open by November 2011.

If all that goes to plan it will mean that over a two year period SEN will have built and opened a runway extension, a brand new passenger terminal with co-located railway station, a new control tower, and a 3 & 5 star hotel. Not bad going! No wonder there is a lot of airline interest in the 'new' SEN.

[SWBKCB]

and what a comparison to what's happening in Carlisle.

[Barnaby the Bear]

Just to clarify:

C4201/10 NOTAMN
Q) EGTT/QICAS/I /NBO/A /000/999/5134N00042E005
A) EGMC B) 1009200800 C) 1012191600
E) RWY 24 ILS U/S DUE WIP
CREATED: 11 Sep 2010 08:03:00
SOURCE: EUECYIYN


The work commences on the 20th. :ok:

[Expressflight]

Thanks for the clarification BTB.

It certainly said the 13th at the time of my posting this morning - perhaps someone spotted that and amended it as I notice the NOTAM number has changed as well.

[Nubrawarriors]

I can read off N945BB from my office window and assume the other white tail 757 is the other you mention.

Regards Phil

[DjerbaDevil]

Nubrawarriors:
Thank you. Read they were moved, hence my query.
All the best to you,
Joe

[Barnaby the Bear]

London Southend Airport Runs Away With Airport Award (http://www.eraa.org/newsroom/news-releases/415-london-southend-airport-runs-away-with-airport-award)
:ok:

[approach24]

I'm sure the award is well deserved by the management of SEN. However, given that Stobart's are investing in excess of 30M pounds to develop the infrastructure at SEN ( new station, control tower, terminal, runway extension) there seem to be very few indications that this huge level of investment will produce a return for them. Clearly their ultimate focus is the 2012 olympic games, however in April management were saying that there were a significant number of airlines interested in operating from SEN and that announcements would be made within the next few months. Here we are in late Sept and still no word from the airport management and not even a sniff of a rumour. Are Stobart wasting their money or have they already attracted airlines to their new facilities late next year after the runway is extended. Seems like a very expensive gamble to me.

[Expressflight]

approach24
I know it's frustrating waiting for route announcements, but an effort is actually being made to keep rumours to a minimum as they certainly don't help airline negotiations and can in some cases hinder them. If you were involved in any of the negotiations you would not be worrying about the lack of positive news I can assure you.
Obviously the opening of the runway extension sets the earliest date for most potential carriers commencing services and with that still a year away don't hold your breath for any major announcements just yet.
The ERA award is quite significant as it greatly increases SEN's profile just where it matters most.

[maliyahsdad2]

At last work has started on the Eastwoodbury Lane diversion so the extended runway work can start as soon as the new road is open.

[airferries]

According to 'EI-BUD' on the Aer Arran thread, there was an article in the Irish Sunday Busines Post suggesting that Stobart are buying out Aer Arran! I suspect this could be good news for Southend concerning future routes. The ATR would be a good aircraft to start with new routes. If this actually happens, interesting times lie ahead.

[Expressflight]

It is true and Stobart have made the official Stock Market announcement first thing this morning.

They will invest 2.5million Euros in Aer Arann and services will commence at SEN in March 2011. They anticipate 300,000 pax pa will result from the deal, although no route details have yet been announced.

Great news for SEN and good to see such an early commencement of services.

What say all you sceptics out there now?

[Aero Mad]

I know rather little about Southend, but surely it doesn't have a hope in hell of competing with City for passengers when the latter has the DLR and Southend has no kind of fast train to the capital? Apologies if I'm wrong, just the impression I got.

[maliyahsdad2]

Southend now has its own station on the Southend Victoria to Liverpool Street line. Due to open December 12th, fastest time 53 minutes. New terminal to be built next to station, so you could get a fairly quick trip to london.

[virginblue]

What will be the frequency of trains? And what will be the fare - hopefully not Stansted Express-style fares...

[Expressflight]

There are trains every 20 minutes throughout the day to Liverpool Street and the standard 'anytime' fare looks as if it will be £13.50 single. It's not currently bookable as the SEN station doesn't open until 12 December.
Work is expected to start on the new passenger terminal this week and once that is open it should be possible to enjoy a transit time of less than 10 minutes from aircraft steps to station platform, as the station is directly adjacent to the new terminal.

I don't see that SEN will be aiming to compete with LCY for pax to any great extent, but seeing itself as a very viable alternative to STN and LTN particularly as transit times from touchdown to London terminus should be less from SEN than from those two London airports. Also don't forget the 600,000 people for whom SEN is 20 minutes less travelling time from home than is any other London airport.

I think that inbound traffic from European points will also play a big part in SEN's future success with its uncongested airspace for arrivals from the East and South particularly.

[Barnaby the Bear]

http://www.flysouthend2012.com :ok:

[Aero Mad]

That is very impressive indeed. Any chance of LCCs like easyJet/Ryanair starting out from Southend? Or maybe a larger Flybe operation? Wow, much more potential than I thought.

[NorthSouth]

Expressflight:uncongested airspace for arrivals from the East and South particularlyI suspect NATS airspace planners might take a rather different view. Adding another 6000 or so ATMs a year to the traffic on the LCY ALKIN and SPEAR STARs and DVR/LYD/CLN SIDs, in the context of increased traffic to/from LCY itself, will have to be taken into account in the TC North airspace proposals, if/when they are resurrected.
NS

[dublindispatch]

Well im guessing that a DUB-SEN would be a no brainer then!!!! and that the WAT-LTN may move to SEN!!

[Expressflight]

NorthSouth

As you say, the additional SEN ATMs will have to be taken into account, but I'm sure that discussions will have taken place with NATS in order that their impact can be incorporated into the new TC North airspace proposals. The fact that these seem still to be in preparation should give time to ensure that SEN's needs are not ignored.
I seem to remember that SEN's plans were considered by NATS to be too provisional and too far into the future when the first set of proposals were published, which shouldn't be the case this time.

[Steviec9]

Lack of suitable slots to make timetables pax friendly at LCY, plus the questionable ongoing management of some of the routes/airlines subsumed by the larger operators in recent times at LCY, may make the first slot bids for SEN very attractive I would have thought. Whatever, will give us more choice and that's no bad thing. If I never have to schlep out to/from STN/LTN again or try to work out a trip around weird timetabling at LCY, yahoo I say. Good luck to SEN, RE and whoever else realises this could well be a winner. People will soon realise that transit through a small, less busy regional airport with it's own railway station could possibly make air travel bearable again.

[angels]

Aero - I've been following the Southend thread for some time now, not just because its been interesting from an aviation point of view but also (as I've posted on here before) because I am potential pax!!

I live in SE London, about an hour's drive from SEN during a normal day. It would be quicker early/late in the day.

LCY is minutes away, but as right noted by Steviec it's largely business oriented and generally doesn't offer the cheaper fares and 'holiday' type destinantions I want when flying with my family.

I welcome the developmenmt of SEN as it gives me more choice. If fares from the airport are similar to LGW, STN etc I would have no problem flying from it.

I, too, have been very impressed with professionalism that the owners have demonstrated and am delighted with this turn of events. :ok:

[southside bobby]

Dear All,Although your enthusiasm down by the seaside is understandable,are you all in danger of perhaps missing the obvious?.... is Eddie unable to get a major player to sign on the dotty line to operate from SEN & therefore is resorting to part funding his own Airport`s customers...Not a winning formula me thinks...Think perhaps Plane Station/EU Jet @ Manston....Stand to be corrected of course,Best Wishes Bobby...

[NorthSouth]

Expressflight:I'm sure that discussions will have taken place with NATS in order that their impact can be incorporated into the new TC North airspace proposalsMay well be the case, but uncongested airspaceit ain't!
We should also take care not to get too carried away -
LCY is minutes away, but...generally doesn't offer the cheaper fares and 'holiday' type destinantions I want when flying with my family - but the extended runway at Southend will still have shorter TODA and LDA than Southampton's, and Southampton has severe restrictions on flights to e.g. southern Spain (fuel stop in France for A320s for example). Aer Arran ATRs sound like a good starting point but don't expect Easyjet or Ryanair.
NS

[Steviec9]

NorthSouth - accept everything you say about technical limitations. Hopefully, this should keep it from getting TOO busy over time as it becomes more successful.

..but don't expect Easyjet or Ryanair.
. ...that, in my opinion, should be the PR strapline for the airport! :D

[Expressflight]

NorthSouth

The fact that Ryanair's 738s will not be able to operate effectively from SEN is one of its best selling points as far as other airlines are concerned I'm sure you will agree, so that's no disadvantage.
It's rather disingenuous to suggest that SEN's declared distances will be to any significant amount less than those at SOU and its TORA and ASDA will in fact be greater.
I'm sure Flybe will be showing interest in SEN following its recent EMB 175 order and that type will be well suited to SEN's runway and I wouldn't rule our Easyjet operating the A319 either.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that SEN is about to become the new Luton, after all their aim is only 2 million ppa, but I think you're adopting rather too much a 'glass half empty' attitude to its prospects if I may say so.

[compton3bravo]

Just a few thoughts from someone who flew from Southend in 1961 and wishes it well for the future BUT I cannot see it getting enough passengers to make the investment worthwhile. I hope the management of the Stobart Group - who I have a great admiration for - but who are not probably not aviation minded or experienced realise that if they move the Aer Arrean routes from Luton that practically all those who use the services live or have relations in the Beds/Herts/North London area and will not travel down to Southend. Also as has been said the Isle of Man-London City services is losing pax and that is a business flight so no realisation of increased pax there as Southend is further out.
Also everybody seems to be making great play of the rail service into Central London from Southend - so has Luton and London City.
Sorry to be so negative but in my honest opinion I cannot see it paying its way. It will get a few services i.e. more Jersey and possibly an Amsterdam but not much else I am afraid. I do hope I am proved wrong because I like to see all airports flourish but in this cut throat world some will not.

[Steviec9]

I too flew regularly (albeit as a small boy) in the early 70’s from SEN to OST on good old BAF, so do have a slight nostalgic rose tinted view of SEN. Nonetheless, these are my own observations about using London’s airports in recent years. I neither make the case for or against any of them as I wish them all well. I’m just glad we might have a new option that can avoid some of the pitfalls of the others and apply some of the positives.

LTN: Fairly nice new airport terminal but I dispute that it has its own rail service. You are faced with a 45 minute trip on a semi-fast Thameslink (hell in the rush hour) or mildly less nasty East Midlands Train to Luton Airport Parkway where you disembark to be met by a bl00dy bus. That you have to pay for. That always seems to get stuck in traffic on the 1 mile trip to/from the terminal.

STN: Was a nice airport but now flooded with LCC pax blundering around seemingly having lost any ounce of intelligence when they left home. Whole airport was only supplied with 1 or 2 working x-ray machines, manned by about 20 personnel apiece. Other xray machines lie dormant. LCC gates are seemingly located in Suffolk, given the 25 minute hike to them. Stansted Express takes at least 40 mins to get into town.

LCY: Lovely airport but has a schizophrenic attitude to non-business passengers – welcomes leisure flights with BACF but other airlines have to cope with odd off-peak slot allocation. There are bargains to be had but fares, generally, are targeted at business pax. I still think it takes at least 30 mins to get from Bank, whatever the DLR timetable says.

LHR: Can either be great or a nightmare. Depends on time of day and terminal. Allow 1hr from central London. I avoid for short haul trips if possible.

LGW: Great train service (I think its quicker to get to than LHR) and the customer service has improved remarkably since BAA sold it. Ongoing reconstruction work in varying places whenever I pass through. Slight feeling that they’ve stuck some airbridges onto a shopping centre as a sideline venture.

[virginblue]

SEN might be an interesting option for BE as Flybe does not serve LCY, STN or LTN and SEN is immune from airlines operating larger aircraft. So with the Q400s and E175, they might have the right arcraft for a SEN operation. However, SEN's catchment area on two - some would argue three - sides is water, so somewhat limited.

[840]

compton3bravo->Luton is the only London service from Waterford and Galway, so it's likely that most of the passengers are bound for London rather than Beds/Herts/etc. If there's a railway station at Southend, it won't make much difference to them whether they are flying to Luton or Southend.

Probably there will be some migration of passengers to DUB/ORK/SNN/NOC-STN or DUB/NOC-LTN, but there is also the potential to gain some passengers whose final destination was in South Essex or East London from the Stansted routes.

[Barnaby the Bear]

London Southend Airport - Serving the Thames Gateway - A Big Catchment Area (http://www.southendairport.com/pages/catchment.htm)

Not a bad catchment area.:8

[NorthSouth]

Expressflight:It's rather disingenuous to suggest that SEN's declared distances will be to any significant amount less than those at SOU and its TORA and ASDA will in fact be greaterThe differences are relatively small I agree, and whether TORA, TODA or ASDA are the limiting distance depends on the aircraft and circumstances. My point was to illustrate by means of a comparison with a similar size runway. Southampton has no A319s and no Easyjet. Easyjet's shortest runway in the UK is now Belfast City (was Inverness), which beats the extended Southend on all measures. No disrespect to Southend who have done their best in a very planning-constrained situation. Flybe has always been Southend's target market and yes, I agree, E175 will do the job there too.
NS

[compton3bravo]

Sorry to disagree with you 840 but most of the 'Irish' community in the south of England live in the areas which I described, but I would suggest that if they wanted to go to East London and the Essex area they would take the Knock and Cork flights to Luton and Stansted as the distances from Galway and Waterford are not too great. Also noted in another post to expect 300,000 passengers annually is pushing it a bit or maybe a lot!

[Expressflight]

compton3bravo

With respect, I think you're missing the point somewhat.

This deal isn't about the transfer of the current two routes into LTN across to SEN. That may well be a consequence of the deal and maybe they'll suffer somewhat as a result and maybe not, but it will be incidental to the new routes which RE will establish from SEN. That's where the 300,000 pax figure comes from because RE will be looking at new, unserved markets for which SEN is best suited, both inbound and outbound.

Also, I'm sorry but Luton Airport does not have a railway station as Steviec9 has pointed out. There's a world of difference between a two minute stroll from arrivals to the up-line station platform at SEN and joining a bus queue, paying the driver, humping your cases on board, the bus journey itself through heavy traffic to Luton Parkway, humping your cases off again and then finding the platform you need when you use LTN.

[RooCat]

If Southend markets itself correctly, then maybe it could make a killing brandishing its image as London's regional airport.If it can get a few basic routes from aer arran into say, Dublin and Cork, then maybe airlines such as Flybe could expand if they see a positive reaction to some bigger hubs such as Manchester and Glasgow, while even smaller airlines such as Manx2 (seasonal into Ronaldsway),Blue Islands(seasonal into Guernsey/Alderney) and possibly Eastern (maybe could compete against their own services from Norwich to Aberdeen with a reduced weekly service from both)

And if they really want to use Southampton as their role models, maybe organising a series of charters skiing or niche through the likes of Inghams, Canterbury Travels and Newmarket Holidays would work nicely, finished of with a limited summer seasonal from Thomson to Palma de Mallorca/Alicante;)

[davidships]

I think that Expressflight and Roocat are along the right lines. But my take is that Aer Arann is a confidence/market-building opportunity to encourage a early positive decision from FlyBe. Even with limited Aer Arann flights (and I cannot see how they would be able to invest in significant new routes in their present state) the airport's profile will be significantly enhanced as a real and credible operation.

With Aer Arann's ATPs they can go for an early start-up in 2011, which will help secure the extensive GA business for 2012 that Stobart must be planning on. Airport to Stratford - 40 mins, and ignoring the capacity-strained LCY, only Stansted anywhere near (no direct rail, though road might be better, depending on time of day).

davidships

[compton3bravo]

Take your point Expressflight, but I have real trouble seeing where these 'new' 300,000 annual passengers are going to come from. The only possible way in my opinion is to take them from existing airports mainly Stansted, London City and possibly some from Norwich although the latter does not have many routes at present and City has practically all what you would call business routes.
Almost all airports in the UK are still suffering from the recesion and consequent drop in traffic andwill continually do so especially those in the leisure field, but as I have said before good luck to Southend but I will not be holding my breath!

[Aero Mad]

Hi all,

Southend has much more potential than I thought initially. However, Blue Islands would now never service Alderney from Southend as it has got rid of its last two Trislanders. Guernsey maybe, but you can get from Southampton Airport to London in 1 hour and this is the same time as Southend. However, they could market it as a London service.

AM :ok:

[NickBarnes]

just had relatives up from Southend and we were discussing Southend airport yesterday, and they said from there point of view they can't see Southend getting anywhere the passengers it wants, Stansted is just 1 hour away and London city and Gatwick aint ages away either. As for people coming from Norwich to use Southend airport instead of the airport there, they would be mad tbh, Southend are most likely going to have similar routes as Norwich with the same airline most likely Flybe, why would you want to travel down to Southend 2 hours+ just to go on the same service offered from Norwich, the only reason would be to avoid the £5 ADP at Norwich but lets be honest your going to spend 3 times that much in petrol getting to Southend which would be crazy, so think we can say there wont be anybody from the Norwich area going to Southend, the drive down is bad enough, so bloody slow:ugh:

i can certainly see a few niche routes working from Southend but not enough to get it close to the 2 million, maybe 1 million but that's only a maybe:rolleyes:

[Expressflight]

I agree with Nick Barnes that SEN is most unlikely to attract pax from the Norwich area, except for 'niche' routes where SEN is offering the only direct service to destination from the London/South East area.

It's interesting that some posters who claim scepticism about SEN's prospects are well established supporters of their own local airport, so perhaps there's some element of alarm there at losing out to SEN in future. What seems to be largely overlooked is the large natural catchment that SEN has; this being 608,000 people for whom SEN is 20 minutes less driving time from home than any other London airport, plus another 410,000 for whom SEN is of equal driving time or less.

Inbound traffic is also going to form a large part of SEN's future traffic - I know because I'm currently working for a French airport on a project to re-establish its London route next year. The airport they have chosen to work with to achieve this is SEN as they see it offering excellent facilities, good slot availability, and an excellent rail link to London. The response from the prime target airline to this plan is also positive about using SEN. This is happening now, it's not some wishful thinking on the part of Stobart or the SEN management. In the real world of short haul services from mainland Europe to London, SEN is generating a lot of airline interest and that's a fact.

This Aer Arann deal is just the start so look out for much more to come over the coming few months - some people are going to get quite a surprise.

[Yak97]

Nick Barnes: Quote "Gatwick aint ages away either"

Try that in the morning down the A127, QE2 bridge, M25 etc, and I think you will sing a different tune.

[tommyc2005]

I know of a couple of airlines with strong inbound markets that might find SEN very attractive based on geography, and really wouldn't be surprised if they moved in....and would provide around 1.2 million pax per annum. One is silver with a bit of yellow and purple, the other is distinctive red and white. One is at STN, the other LGW.

[Aero Mad]

Ok, I'm being dim :O, but which airline is silver with a bit of yellow and purple? And Virgin at Southend? Surely not ;)

[Cyrano]

Ok, I'm being dim :O, but which airline is silver with a bit of yellow and purple?

This one perhaps? (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Germanwings_A319_beim_Pushback.jpg)

[SWBKCB]

Is the distinctive red and white one at LGW, the one that moved there from STN??

[compton3bravo]

Come on Tommy - do you honestly think an airline - your are probably thinking of Norwegian Shuttle - moving its operations from Gatwick with all its worldwide connections and superb rail and road connections move to Southend - I don't think so. I really do think all this Southend so-called expansion and expected airlines and passengers is getting - as Captain Mainwaring said - getting into the realms of fantasy! Only time will tell.

[Aero Mad]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, was thinking too much of British carriers. Thanks :)

[Expressflight]

Time will indeed tell c3b, but not quite in the way you are anticipating although I'm not talking about the two mentioned airlines in that context necessarily.

[tommyc2005]

c3b - I'm not saying they will move in and I'm definately not a fantasist, but of all the airlines serving all the London airports would you not agree they have good potential and it is certainly a possibility? Not convinced onward connections from those destinations are particularly important?

Afterall, from an operational perspective:

Shorter flight times (slightly less than STN, more so than LGW though hold times would be eradicated)
Shorter turnarounds
Lower fuel costs
Possible cheaper airport/handling costs

From an inbound (majority of the pax) perspective:

1. Majority heading to London so couldn't care less where they arrive so long as it is convenient.
2. Train to London (with probable lower ticket prices than Gat/Stans Express)
3. Overall transit times via rail probably similar to LGW and shorter than STN
4. Not too far from M25

From an outbound pax perspective:

1. Rail travellers are used to departing from Liverpool St (or intermediate tube stop) so getting to SEN no different to getting to STN.

Also worth noting that Ford is likely to be a major business user of CGN flights, and the Ford shuttle operated from SEN anyway pre-railway station.

[Aero Mad]

Southend Airport announce five-year deal with Aer Arann
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/essex/hi/people_and_places/newsid_9088000/9088207.stm)

[virginblue]

Is mentioning Germanwings as a possible operator from SEN speculation or are they reliably known to be interested?


What Aer Arann of course could do is establish some sort of mini-hub at SEN if they operate to place like ORK, WAT and GWY from the west and some Benelux / Western German destinations from the east.

However, I remanin sceptical until I see RE planes in SEN. IIRC, a couple of years ago RE announced a base at LGG in Belgium - which never materialized.

[Chille Con Carnie]

Air Berlin did an audit on ground services last year,they,re red & white.

[virginblue]

I think "silver with a little yellow and purple" refers to Germanwings, hence my asking.

For Air Berlin, things have changed since last year because of them joining oneworld. If they move, it will be from STN to LGW.

[vulcanised]

Essex Police helicopter moving to Southend?

Essex Police helicopter could move to Southend Airport (From Echo) (http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/8477020.Essex_Police_helicopter_could_move_to_Southend_Airpo rt/)

[maliyahsdad2]

Plus work starts on new terminal.

Work begins on Southend airport's new terminal (From Echo) (http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/local_news/8478494.Work_begins_on_Southend_airport_s_new_terminal/)

[Airfix1001]

Ok - I'm not a pilot, but would really appreciate some advice, and thanks in advance.

Does anyone know about Southend Airport and the intended expansion? My question is (as someone under the runway centre line, 2 miles out from the start of the runway to the South West (i.e. in Leigh-on-sea)) - is it REALLY the case that short-to-medium-range aircraft approaching the runway on a glide path will be at a height of only 600-650 feet when they pass overhead? I understand that at present there's a 3 degree angle of approach and if the expansion goes ahead this will be 3.5 degrees with ILS - however given the south westerly direction of expansion there won't be much in it. I'm just struggling with the image of A319s and ATR-72s etc flying this low overhead. I'm not convinced airport personnel will give a fully objective view.

Any views on this?

[TSR2]

I may be wrong but I would think the aircraft would be nearer 1500 feet at 2 miles from the threshold.

[Airfix1001]

Thanks for a prompt reply there..why would it be 1500 feet? I'd certainly be pleased if that were the case.

[Donkey497]

Erm, it's an airport, the aircraft will have to get a lot lower than 600 odd feet if they want to use the facilities.........

As far as the expansion goes, my understanding is that the runway will be extended about as far as it physically can be (which isn't much at 300m) so basically the glide slope moves out by the same amount. Therefore if you are under the glideslope just now once the new extension is in use, whaterver is over head will be AT MOST 15m or 50ft lower. You will not be able to determine the difference with the naked eye unless you are much, much closer to the threshold. the difference in the size of the aircraft being only about around 10%.

Think of a full moon - it looks huge near the horizon but it looks tiny when vertically overhead, but it's still the same size & subtends the same visual angle.

[Airfix1001]

Ok - the concern is that Southend is apparently going from occasional larger aircraft movements for maintenance (admittedly including the occasional older and much noiser type of plane) to a much more scheduled, frequent scenario which might well have more of a nuisance impact.

[jumpseater]

is it REALLY the case that short-to-medium-range aircraft approaching the runway on a glide path will be at a height of only 600-650 feet when they pass overhead

At two miles, yes, that's a reasonable and realistic estimate for a normal 3 degree ILS. On a 3 degree glide path at 10 miles aircraft are at approx 3,000 ft, 5 miles 1,500ft. As Donkey says you won't be able to really tell the difference from what you experience now as the height differential is minimal with the proposed extension as you describe.

Noise of course is subjective, but if you're living in an urban area then the noise of 319's and ATR's probably won't be too intrusive, over background levels. If you're concerned about approach noise then its worth contacting the airport authority through your local politicians/consultative comittee and request that they endeavour to do CDA approaches where/when practical. These are continuous descent profiles which means fewer power/trim setting changes which can have an beneficial effect on the noise, and its more environmentally friendly in terms of fuel useage.

[spekesoftly]

A 3 degree Glide Path equates to roughly 300 feet per nautical mile from touchdown, so aircraft at 2nm will be about 600 feet high. If you live 2 statute miles from the runway threshold, then aircraft are presently passing overhead at slightly less than 600 feet. If the runway threshold moves slightly nearer, but with a slightly steeper (3.5%) glide path, then the height of aircraft passing overhead on final will be much the same as now.

[Expressflight]

One important point that hasn't yet been mentioned is that runway 06 currently doesn't have an ILS, so at present aircraft fly a surveillance radar approach to 2 miles from touchdown, the aircraft being given radar headings as it descends to align it with the runway, after which it continues on its last given heading, while not descending below the safety height of 611ft above the airfield, until the crew either see the approach lights and continue visually to a landing or break off the approach and climb away if not.

This means that, at present, the aircraft is almost directly overhead your location at the point the approach finishes and the Obstacle Clearance Height is reached. This is likely to result in engine power setting changes which you may notice as the aircraft stops descending.

The extended runway will have an ILS system and the descent path to the runway will be along a 3.5° glideslope with no major power setting changes required as the aircraft's position is indicated in the cockpit to the crew at all times and it flies a stable approach. This also ensures that each aircraft passes over you at the prescribed height, this being by my calculations 612ft and virtually the same as now. It seems that aircraft using the extended runway will not be lower over you than they are at present and are, indeed, likely to sound rather quieter than now as a result of the ILS being installed.

With regard to noise nuisance from the ATR, EMB 170/190, Q400 types which would be likely to form the vast majority of movements in future, I actually did a survey at Jersey to judge for myself the likely noise impact. At a point where aircraft on approach were at 600 feet above my observation position I recorded all aircraft from B737-300 to light jets. The quietest airliner was the Q400 with the EMB195 and the ATR being nearly equal and just noticeably noisier but both being way quieter than the 737-300 (an old generation aircraft).

I hope this is helpful and I apologise if I have simplified things overmuch but I'm not sure of your technical knowledge of procedures. Please PM me if I can help further.

EXF

[DB6]

Aircraft on approach are surprisingly quiet, 600 feet is about right. But I have to ask - if you are that bothered about aircraft flying over your house why do you live near an airport?

[Twitcher]

Listening in the aircraft coming in here on talkdown, these are what the controller gives out as to what the aircraft should be at:

7 miles 2340ft
6 miles 2030ft
5 miles 1720ft
4 miles 1410ft
3 miles 1100ft
2 miles 790ft
1 mile 580ft

[Jn14:6]

Those heights are QNH based, ie: above sea level. Subtract airport elevation to get real height above you!

[spekesoftly]

Listening in the aircraft coming in here on talkdown, .....

But to which Runway? Those figures are about right for for RWY 24, not RWY 06.

According to the UK AIP (SRA RWY 06 EGMC) at 2nm the correct advisory altitude/height is 660/611 feet.

[F14]

I grew up in Leigh and went to Belfairs. Enjoyed the sound of four darts in close formation drowning out the biology teacher :p. Went onto a career in engineering and enjoyed many happy years working at Southend Airport. I was encouraged into flying by BAF's Sam Askuri and John Hext (anybody remember them?) I have worked as a pilot all over the world, but I still consider Leigh home. The prosperity of Southend was always greatly enhanced by the activities at Southend Airport especially as an offset to "The City" and it was a very sad day for the local community when BAF folded.

As far as aircraft noise goes, todays modern jets and turbo-props are very, very quiet. If you have lived in the area a while you may remember Princess Airs BAe146. (or maybe not because they were so quiet)The modern aircraft's take-off performance means that if you live in Eastwood or Leigh they will be about 2000 feet or more when overhead. Because the prevailing wind is South Westerly approaches are flown just south of Burnham-on-Crouch down the River Roach to Rochford (where it will be noisy). Also compared with the earlier era, these days airlines use Flight Simulators for crew training, thus removing the "Base Training" activities from Southend. Which involved repetative approaches sometimes with simulated engine failures, these could be very low over Leigh!:eek: especially the HeavyLift Belfasts (a big Hercules). A favourite was the day the DanAir BaC1-11-500s turned up. I think we had 7 one after another all made approaches, made an overshoot then landed. very loud. Also the day the RAF Jaguar hit the trees making a beat up a past the tower (actually lower than the tower:ok:) anybody remember that (post 1992 airshow) but I digress:oh:

As much as I wish Stobart Group well, Southend is still a small airport and even with the extension it will not be busy and there is no chance of serious heavy metal operating from it. Aircraft types that can be used will be the new generation (e-jets,Q400,c-series etc) These are very quite due to new technology engines and high performance. I would say you have nothing to worry about.

The airport expansion is great for young people in the area and hopefully they will have the same chances in life that I have enjoyed.

PPL Skylane 1992, TRE 737 2010:ok:

[smallpilot]

Airfix1001...
I fly from SEN, usually asked to call final passing Leigh Station (approx 2.5 DME) and I'm usually around 700-800 feet at that point if following the PAPI's. I live on the Marine estate, directly under the flightpath and have little or no problem with noise from any arriving traffic, don't even have to turn up the TV or anything like that.
The Police Heli over leigh at 11.00pm on a Friday night is FAR more annoying!
As other posters have said, the reality is traffic levels will be little changed from at present, probably 1 or 2 more movements per hour at most.
The cr@p spouted about by SAEN of a 'an aircraft every 5 minutes, just a few feet over your home all day and night' - your house will be worthless etc etc' is the worst kind of scare-mongering!
Hope that helps.

[Expressflight]

spekesoftly

I think Twitcher is talking about traffic into Manston, not Southend.

[TSR2]

I said I could be wrong and I was. Sorry about that. For some reason I had calculated the approximate height at 5 miles. Thanks to Mr Bloggs for pointing out my error.

[Phileas Fogg]

Airfix,

As you indicate Southend has, in recent times, attacted geriatric, and noisy, B707's etc. but modern airliners are more enviromental friendly.

But, the bottom line is, it seems you bought your house off the extended centre line of a commercial airport runway, Southend was a lot busier airport in the past than it has been in recent years, thus you shouldn't take offence to overflying aircraft because, one presumes, the airport was in place before you were.

Reminds me of the American tourist questioning, regarding Windsor, "Why did the Queen choose to build her castle so close to an airport", well perhaps the castle was in place before the airport!

[Barnaby the Bear]

Southend will have a restriction of around 53300 movements per annum under the section 106 agreement with the new extension being constructed.

Windfinder - Wind & weather statistic Southend-On-Sea (http://www.windfinder.com/windstats/windstatistic_southend-on-sea.htm)

If you click on the link above, it also shows that the winds at Southend are mostly SW. Most arrivals and are likely to be on Runway 24 (from the NE) which is also their preferred runway under the preferential runway scheme proposed. :}

[Airfix1001]

Many thanks,

I am reassured by all of this. I had been concerned that while there would be a cap on movements of c53,000 (thus not a great deal more than now), the balance would swing massively towards much large aircraft. I understand now that in reality most approaches will be over Rochford. In terms of takeoffs to theSouth West, these will fan out over Leigh under the Noise Preferred Routing system and would be significantly higher in the sky anyway. Whether Southend ever gets close to the predicted two million passengers per year is certainly debatable given the proximity of Stansted and City, other developments apparently in the pipeline (e.g. Hoo Peninsula), and an uncertain economic climate. I imagine attracting a significant number of airlines away from other bases would involve some fairly heavy duty local authority subsidies, which I doubt could be accommodated. It's apparently the case that Stobart wouldn't set up their own fleet from scratch (too risky), but would only use cargo space in passenger airlines' aircraft, so perhaps the overarching intention is to use the airport land as a distribution/storage hub served largely by road and rail - and if the air transport side takes off significantly it's something of a bonus.

[Barnaby the Bear]

Airfix1001, Stobart have/are not investing millions in a passenger station, new terminal and Hotel etc. to concentrate on Freight despite the local opposition groups claims to the contrary. They are very much aiming the business at passengers whether on scheduled carriers or Corporate jets etc. In many articles they have stated that although Niche freight will be served it is not going to be a hub for Stobart Lorries and Rail freight would not be possible from there anyway. :ok:

If you are really concerned, then can I suggest you take a day off and drive to Southampton. Park close to St Mary's stadium and providing they are on the correct runway, you will get a very good idea of what it is like to sit under about a 2 mile final to an Airport with around 2 million passengers a year (Southend's ambition by 2020) and similar types using it. :}

[vulcanised]

The prevailing wind certainly was SWly but I wonder if that is still the case?

We seem to get at least equal measure of wind from the Nly quadrant these days.

[STATSMAN]

Airfix1001 Any problems with my take off today on runway 24 at about 15.00 in a PA28 Archer straight ahead to 500 ft then right turn to the Crouch, thought of your problems when in right turn.;)

[Red Four]

Statsman - Lets hope you read and take note of the AIP more thoroughly before your next flight then!

EGMC AD 2.21 — NOISE ABATEMENT PROCEDURES
Operators of all aircraft using the aerodrome shall ensure at all times that aircraft are operated in a manner calculated to cause the least disturbance
practicable in the areas surrounding the aerodrome. The following procedures and routeings apply to all aircraft whether landing or taking off or
making a missed approach in either VMC or IMC.
a. On departure from either runway all propeller driven aircraft must climb straight ahead to at least 600 ft aal before turning.

[STATSMAN]

Red Four I was told by ATC to turn. not my call

[Airfix1001]

Can there be a permanent change in prevailing wind? :eek:

[NorthSouth]

Airfix: Some others have made estimates of how high aircraft are now compared to in future with ILS. The best guide is the current instrument approach plates. These show the following:

SRA to runway 06: 2.6 degree approach, altitude at 2nm from touchdown = 660 ft above sea level

NDB approach to runway 06: 2.9 degree approach, altitude at 2nm from touchdown = 720 ft above sea level

Future ILS (assuming it is a 3.5 degree glideslope as you state, and it's designed so that aircraft cross the runway threshold at 50ft):
altitude at 2nm from touchdown = 850 ft above sea level

However that doesn't take account of the fact that the landing threshold will be moved closer to you as a result of the runway extension. If it's 300 metres closer to you then the altitude of aircraft on the future ILS for 06 will be more like 790 ft above sea level.

At 2 statute miles as opposed to nautical miles, aircraft on the future ILS will be approximately 750 ft above sea level.

On that basis I'd say each individual aircraft will be less noisy over you than currently - but of course if the airport's plans come to fruition there'll be more of them and it will be that that will annoy you, not the difference in noise level of each one.

Having said that, I think the chances of regular jet movements in/out of Southend are low. There are lots of airports all desperate to expand but a limited amount of traffic.

NS

[vulcanised]

Something I have noticed this year is that there seems to have been considerably less light aircraft traffic than previously (unless I've imagined it).

Presumably, as well as adding ILS to 06, they will introcuce secondary radar?

[airferries]

I believe that a secondary radar unit has already been ordered. The current system is old and unreliable and is in need of replacement anyway.

[NorthSouth]

There isn't a "current system". They only have primary radar. If they've ordered SSR I imagine they will want to replace the primary radar too. That's quite a few millions to add to the budget.
NS

[airferries]

Sorry, I must make my self clearer in future. I was referring to the primary radar as the current system which is, as a matter of fact, U/S (again.)
Diggers were working on the new terminal site today, with completion expected to be next Autumn. Hopefully the new terminal will have some use next year, as the current situation with Aer Arann is uncertain.

[EDIT 18:00: The radar is working again now.]

[NorthSouth]

I was referring to the primary radar as the current system which is, as a matter of fact, U/S (again.)Tch tch, not NOTAM'd
NS

[Barnaby the Bear]

Tch tch, not NOTAM'd

Then it's no longer OOS. It was NOTAM'd until this morning.


That's quite a few millions to add to the budget.

And?

[Airfix1001]

Expressflight,

Thanks for your comments re noise testing. Clearly you have a particular interest in these things.

I've read that the noise from an ATR72 or A319 on approach at around 650 feet up, but as heard 500 feet or so away from the true overhead position would be roughly equivalent to a bus at around 30 feet away in terms of dbSEL - does this sound about right? I imagine actually that the turboprop would be a bit noisier.

[Barnaby the Bear]

Airfix1001

From the information you gave us earlier you should have already experienced ATR's or A319's at Southend. Also the DASH 8s Flybe use each summer for their Jersey rotation?
The Aircraft size using Southend will not be any different from now. The main difference is they will be carrying passengers and small freight. The frequency of commercial aircraft will be more, but even IF/when it achieves its goals of 2m passengers by 2020. Thats still only 10% of the passengers moved by Stansted in 2009 and a third of the movements.

:8

[Expressflight]

Airfix1001

I couldn't really say how the noise of a bus 30ft away compares with the A319 or ATR72 I'm afraid. The reason I carried out my 'experiment' on Jersey was simply because I couldn't believe the noise horror stories being put out by the SEN objectors and my own observations proved them to be totally false.

As far as the ATR72 sounding noisier than the A319 is concerned, I expect it will actually sound slightly quieter. The ATR72-200 (which Aer Arann will be basing at SEN) is certificated as being 5.70dBA quieter on approach than is the ATR42-300 I monitored at JER - which illustrates the point that the more modern the aircraft the quieter it is likely to be.

Noise is also a subjective matter depending on the pitch and frequency of the noise - personally I found the 'sound' of the A319 more pleasant than that of the ATR42-300 but I'm sure that's a personal thing. Do keep an eye open for the A319 at SEN because at the moment Easyjet aircraft are visiting for resprays - one landed at 07:30 yesterday but not from your direction I believe. I'm sure if you 'phoned the airport after any particular aircraft has passed over you on approach they would tell you exactly what it was. That way you can judge for yourself.

[Aero Mad]

Express, I take it you were monitoring G-DRFC (Blue Islands)?

[SENFLYER]

It's great to see that the conversation over the last year has turned from its never going to happen to constructive q's about glide slopes and a/c types. about time.. I have lived under the flight path for the last 30 years and
it doesn't bother me in the slightest although I do have to agree with someone's earlier comment about the EP helicopter on a Friday night! Its like their weekly outing over our houses has become so regular you can set your watch by it.
Anyway I was wondering and Express Flight I suspect you may know the answer to this :ok: but is SEN keeping its radar service? I saw it mentioned they've ordered a SSR but I would have thought SEN would have gone the same way as STN and farmed it's radar service out to NATS at Swanwick therefore reducing head count etc It would be good to know they've kept it.

[NorthSouth]

I would have thought SEN would have gone the same way as STN and farmed it's radar service out to NATS at SwanwickBut the difference is that although the controllers are at Swanwick, they're still using the Stansted radar picture. Fine if everyone involved is NATS but I can't see that happening at Southend because the numbers just aren't big enough to justify it. Plus it would probably need a new radar at Southend anyway. What they might do at some point in the future is buy in a feed of SSR data from NATS (Debden or Stansted).
NS

[Expressflight]

As far as I'm aware it will be a new radar head at SEN but whether the SSR data will come from elsewhere I don't know as I'm not privvy to their plans in that respect and it's not my area of expertise either I'm afraid.
I haven't heard anything about a CTR being established for SEN but I would have thought that may be necessary sooner rather than later.

The new terminal ground works are coming along well and I believe the piling for the steelwork begins next week.

[NorthSouth]

I haven't heard anything about a CTR being established for SEN but I would have thought that may be necessary sooner rather than laterLet's not get ahead of ourselves here. Southend currently has no commercial services. Granted, they appear to be coming, but until they have half a million pax or more they would have a very weak case for controlled airspace.
NS

[Chille Con Carnie]

I here that a piling machine was in place today on the new terminal site?

[airferries]

Piling did begin today, and work on the new terminal appears to be progressing well.
Any more news on the new station? It's meant to open in les than two weeks (12th December) but there has yet to be an anouncement of any sort. The station still isn't completely finished.

[Expressflight]

The station won't be opening for a couple of months yet, despite being in the winter train timetable, as it would receive relatively little use.
I wouldn't be surprised if it opened at the beginning of March, after the existing runway improvement works are completed, in time for the commencement of RE's initial services.

[fredtheanorak]

Assuming RE GWY SEN ever starts. LTN are really f:mad: off with RE and would love to get someone else in on the traditional west of Ireland to London routing. That would :mad: all the plans.:ooh:

[Expressflight]

fred

I don't think your eloquent post reflects the reality of the situation at all.

[Steviec9]

That would http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif all the plans

Clearly Stobart have overlooked this well thought out business plan and are unaware that the £multi-million, award winning, re-development of the airport and new European routes will all be totally destroyed by the (possible) problems of (possibly) moving a route that, at the moment, has a maximum capacity of about 140 people each way, daily.

Thank God there are competent aviation analysts out there to see these pitfalls. :rolleyes:

[Buster the Bear]

easyJet rumoured to be looking at 4-6 routes.

[HZ123]

What a/c are they to operate then as even with the extension they will have to have a number of empty seats?

[Expressflight]

Hello HZ123, good to have you back!

No, they won't need to leave seats empty on the routes they will be looking at as I understand it, the extended runway being A319 compatible. Look at the performance charts for that aircraft.

[Tagron]

The questions to be asked are:

What is the range of an A319 with a full passenger load departing at maximum take off weight from SEN's extended runway ? Which destinations are then feasible and which are not ? Then within that radius of action, which routes stand the chance of being commercially attractive ?

Ditto for A320/321 and the various 737 sub types and so on .

[NorthSouth]

I suspect you'll find the answer to that - assuming MTOW - is zero miles for all those types.
NS

[Expressflight]

But ops would not be at MTOW would they?

[NorthSouth]

That's right, but Tagron's question was specifically about ops at MTOW.

An indication can be got from Easyjet's current UK operations. Shortest runway their A319s operate from is Belfast City - 1767m, but TODA is 1917m or 2029m. And they only fly to Luton.

Southend's TODA will as I understand it be 1799m in both directions.

Southampton's a better guide to Southend's future operations than anything else - Dash 8s, RJ85/100s, a few Embraer 195s.

NS

[furoner]

..if you tell me yours!

[Tagron]

Evidently my phrasing of that question was ambiguous. I was not referring to maximum structural take off weight but the maximum performance limited take off weight (RTOW) at SEN. So in that case the answer to the operating range question is certainly not "zero" miles.

Any potential airline user of SEN would be able to come up with the answer very quickly, assuming all the relevant data is now published. For example, I would expect that if there is any substance in the EZY rumour they would have already have established there were sufficient potential destinations within the A319 operating radius from SEN to make further evaluation worthwhile. Inability to depart at MTOW need not be unduly restrictive. I was hoping someone would be able to provide a more detailed analysis based on A319 performance data.

[compton3bravo]

Can anyone give me one logical idea of why on earth easyJet would want to operate flights from Southend when they operate from two major airports withinin 50 miles of Southend. Plus restrictions on runway length and also night operations. Get real or am I missing something here?

[LGS6753]

There may be some advantages for EZY in transferring a few routes from Stansted to Southend. Reduced flying time (depending on route), less congested airspace, less taxying, potential of quicker turn-rounds, cheaper fees, good rail service to London and access to a similar catchment area.

Potential could be Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Geneva, Ljubljana, Prague and any other east European cities.

[AirLCY]

I can't see them transferring any routes from STN, there will be nowhere near the same demand. Only thing that would work is away based aircraft going to SEN, such as FR from Spain etc. I think business routes will only work on a few key cities, perhaps EDI, BHD with Flybe and CDG with Flybe and AF codeshare with connections.

[NorthSouth]

I was hoping someone would be able to provide a more detailed analysis based on A319 performance datathat would be interesting, but in its absence I think you would have to ask why Easyjet don't fly from Southampton or Isle of Man, where the runway lengths are similar to or longer than the lengthened Southend.
NS

[Phileas Fogg]

What the hell has Southampton airport got to do with it, why don't EZY operate from Durham Tees Valley (or whatever it's called), is the runway there too big?

Whilst airport facility can restrict usage it's, in the main, about catchment areas. one can build a mega airport in the middle of nowhere, does that mean all the airlines and passengers are going to suddenly roll up?

SOU's main usage is to the Channel Islands, SEN is ideally located for London but what cracks me up is than many have been loco brainwashed that loco's are needed to make an airport work, that loco's are a step forward.

To hell with the loco's, get some regular business traffic, operators that can offer worldwide connections via a hub such as KL, AF, LH, Swiss etc

[Aero Mad]

Easyjet do operate to the Isle of Man (from Liverpool), and whilst there is no harm in some EZY routes to Southend, I agree with PF that casting the net wider would be a good idea, turning Southend into another London terminus.

Ryanair, incidentally, are showing no commitment to Bournemouth Airport - so don't depend on the locos. Easyjet is pulling out of Doncaster Sheffield as of January similarly.

Possibly Flybe services to Guernsey (supplementing the Jersey services already in place - these could become less seasonal), KLM Cityhopper to Amsterdam and maybe Lufthansa to a German city might be what pans out. Arran could also begin to service some European destinations.

[asdf1234]

I for one don't believe that EZY or RYR are looking at SEN.

And it is rumoured that the last thing the owners at SEN want are LoCo's such as the Orangemen or the mad Irishman. And who can blame them - look at other regional airports that succumbed to the lure of the LoCo's and ended up cutting their own throats just to keep them on site.

SEN will do nicely with a mix of scheduled, charter and biz jet with a sprinkling of cargo, flight training and heavy maintenance.

As for range it is no secret that 1,000nm is what they advertise for the new runway.

[NorthSouth]

Easyjet do operate to the Isle of Man (from Liverpool)I stand corrected. But maybe that gives you your answer Tagron - 77 nautical miles.
NS

[Phileas Fogg]

SouthNorth!

Many a year ago I worked for a B737-300 operator, at the end of season the IOM hoteliers take their breaks, I recall operations from IOM, utilising B737-300's, to Spain, Kerkyra etc, these destinations are 77nm from IOM?

[Barnaby the Bear]

For whatever reason NS is not a great fan of Southend. :rolleyes: Time will tell if operators begin to see Southend as useful airport rather than, or as well as other Airports surrounding London.
Things haven't look so good for SEN for along time. :ok:

[NorthSouth]

NS is not a great fan of SouthendYou misjudge. What I'm not a fan of is the widespread assumption that an airport isn't a serious operator unless it has the Orangemen or the mad Irishmanas asdf1234 puts it. But the Southend management do seem to be focusing their attention on the twin-turboprop/Embraer market which is what the runway length - now and when extended - supports.
NS

[Expressflight]

I'm with Phileas Fogg on the matter of LoCos not being an essential element of a successful airport and I'm sure that aircraft smaller than the A319 will form the major part of SEN's success in the future. The fact that the Ryanair fleet could not operate efficiently from SEN's extended runway is probably a blessing in disguise as its predatory influence will not be present and should give Q400/ATR72 operators more confidence in establishing routes.

But let's just get it clearly understood that the A319 will be able to operate commercially from its 1,799m runway to many worthwhile destinations. Whether Easyjet or anyone else decides to do so is another matter, but it certainly won't be decided primarily on runway length. Go to the airbus website and look at the performance graphs for yourselves.

[shamrock7seal]

Its obvious that SEN should focus on embraer/turboprop operators. But it begs the question whether it can compete effectively with LCY which has that market pretty well sorted.

[Expressflight]

I think you will find that cost and slot availability will play a large part in SEN being able to compete with LCY in the ATR/Q400 market, especially from 'secondary' European cities.

[Phileas Fogg]

Shamrock,

For anybody living in the Greater London suburbs and/or home counties LCY is a right pain in the butt to travel to/from on public transport ..... an overland train, then the tube, then the docklands light railway or similar.

[NorthSouth]

Expressflight:the A319 will be able to operate commercially from its 1,799m runway to many worthwhile destinations...Go to the airbus website and look at the performance graphs for yourselvesI'd caution against using that as your guide. For a start they're based on a "typical 2-class passenger payload". That's code for a full-service airline with relatively high yields and a lower break-even load factor than locos or holiday charter airlines. That means they can take off lighter. If Southend intends to go for that market they will be directly head-to-head with LCY. They may get there eventually but I see no evidence that they see that as a key market.

As I've said before, failing having a flight ops person from an A319-equipped airline on this thread, the best guide to the feasibility of A319 ops out of Southend is looking at the airports where A319s currently operate - and where they don't.

NS

[Aero Mad]

NS, here is a good example of a place you mention.

Isle of Man (08/26 runway is 1754m long). easyJet operates the Isle of Man - Liverpool route which takes roughly 50 minutes with an A319. They also operate Liverpool - Jersey (09/27 runway is 1706m long) with A319s.

Southend won't be head-to-head with City for higher tier carriers because whilst City is meant to be a centrally located STOLport, Southend is not and can function as a London airport for people outside London, whereas City only really functions as a London airport for those who live in London - and it is rather a pain to reach from the outside.

However, Southend is much easier to reach if you live in East Anglia, Essex or Sussex/Surrey/Kent. You either train to Euston (or whatever they call it) and then swap or you nip on the M25. Simples :ok:

[airferries]

I thought easyjet had aircraft which are equipped with fewer fuel tanks and are subsequently lighter than A319s operated by most other airlines.
Anyway, from what I am aware of, there is greater substance to the easyjet rumour than 'North South' would like to believe. I'm sure an A319 might struggle to get to Larnaca from Southend, but there are far more much closer worthwhile destinations which they may be interested to explore.

[EI-BUD]

easyJet operates the Isle of Man - Liverpool route which takes roughly 50 minutes with an A319


Hey AeroMad; I think you will find that this flight is only 40 mins as per timetable and more like 20 mins flying!!!
It is probably the shortest route on the Easyjet network followed closely by BFS GLA!

EI-BUD

[Phileas Fogg]

Gibraltar, and let us not forget that GIB experiences higher temperatures than Sarfend-on-Sea, has a runway length of 1,628m, a quick peek on airliners.net reveals, operating to/from, Monarch & BA/GB A320's, EZY & Iberia A319's, Air Europe B737-300's and, indeed, Monarch B757's and these guys ain't operating 20/40 minute sectors.

And if proof were needed:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/8/6/0/0247068.jpg

Yep, Sarfend must be doomed to Embraers and Puddle Jumpers!

[Expressflight]

North South

I'm fully aware of the basis on which the Airbus graphs are drawn up and I have applied exactly the correcting factors that you mention, otherwise I would have been crowing that an A319 can operate a sector of over 2,000nm from SEN wouldn't I?
Obviously it cannot, but using the appropriate corrections I don't see why 1,000nm seems over optimistic. Of course obstacles in the climbout area have an affect on RTOW as well and that may become a consideration on runway 24 departures.

As you say, it would be interesting to hear from someone who has access to the relevant SOPs and FM for the A319. Any takers out there?

Its can be rather misleading for others to quote raw runway lengths as examples elsewhere as TODA is generally greater than that. Physically SEN's TODA will be greater than 1,799m but that is the limit set by the CAA for a Code 3C runway so 1,799m is what must go into the RTOW calculation.

[compton3bravo]

Sorry Phileas a bit out of date I am afraid about Gib or to give its correct name RAF North Gibraltar.
Monarch, BA and easy use only the A319 or A320 into Gib, no more B757s after a couple of very near scrapes some years ago. Also it is Captains only on landings with the problems of the winds etc. circulating around the rock. So from that point of view your prognosis with Southend does not really stand up.
It is quite an interesting landing at Gib especially the one when you have to go around the rock and fly over Algerciras Bay!

[Phileas Fogg]

Compton,

One of the first times I flew was Lyneham-Gibraltar-Luqa-Kinloss-Lyneham in a military C-130, certainly wasn't allowed to enter Spanish airspace and a most interesting flight or two around the rock.

OK Sarfend doesn't have a rock, apes perhaps but no rock :) , but the length of runway is not material to GIB being Captain's only, they put A320/B737's in/out of such places as Chios (1,511m runway in heat) without any such restriction, but GIB to London must be circa 2 hours 45 minutes, in an A320, off a runway shorter than SEN's and in heat, yet these other guys seem brainwashed in to only discussing A319's and, kind of, "no chance" in/out SEN!

[AirLCY]

SEN needs Flybe with a base of 3 or 4 Q4's, good brand and no conflict as they don't fly LCY or STN. In addition they need charter carriers to W into SEN on peak leisure routes, TCX and TOM won't want a base so close to STN

[NorthSouth]

Aero Mad:Isle of Man (08/26 runway is 1754m long). easyJet operates the Isle of Man - Liverpool route which takes roughly 50 minutes with an A319Actually the IoM runway 08/26 is 1837m long, but it has a TODA of 2815m on 08 and 2057m on 26.
They also operate Liverpool - Jersey (09/27 runway is 1706m long) with A319sBut Jersey TODA is 1889m on rwy 09 and 2469m on 27.

Phileas Fogg: Gib runway is 1829m with civil TODAs of 2518m in both directions (source: UK Mil AIP)

Expressflight:Physically SEN's TODA will be greater than 1,799m but that is the limit set by the CAA for a Code 3C runway so 1,799m is what must go into the RTOW calculationAs I understand it Southend's TODA is limited by the Runway End Safety Areas, not by some arbitrary limit placed on it because it has to remain a Code 3C. And since the recommended RESAs for Code 3 are the same as Code 4 it would make no difference to the declared distances if they went for Code 4. But in any case, whatever the reasons, the planning application for the Southend runway extension gives the following declared distances for the extended runway:
06 24
TODA 1739 1739
TORA 1799 1799
LDA 1604 1604
ASDA 1658 1739

Now, you'll probably spot that having TORA>TODA looks a bit odd, so it's my guess they got those transposed when compiling the Environmental Statement. But the upshot is, extended Southend's TODA in both directions will be less than IoM, Jersey, Gib etc. Its LDA of 1604m will be similar to IoM and Jersey but 75m longer than Gibraltar. But LDA is usually less critical because you can plan to land with little fuel, especially if the alternates are close at hand.

NS

[Phileas Fogg]

NorthSouth,

To be honest I'm not going to lose any sleep whether SEN makes it into the big time or not, from my past I just know SEN to be an under-rated airport in a reasonable location and with a good weather record, i.e. in my past life(s) I've put Brymon DHC7's and large volumes of Air UK fleet(s) into SEN when other airports, LHR, STN, NWI, have been weather closed.

I watched and watched this thread and only posted when I realised the continued naivity being posted, these guys keep on about A319's because that is what an orange (supposed but not really) 'loco' operates, to hell with the loco's, these modern day loco's lower the tone of a place, and I say this having previously, and very proudly, worked for the UK's first loco (Sir FAL) back in the 1970's.

These guys also keep on about Embraers, no doubt a reference to FlyBE or whatever they call themselves this week, what about Fokker's, what about CRJ's, what about BAe146's, what about MD87's and so on, these types being operated by KLM, Air France, Lufthansa, SAS, Swiss etc!

Until recently my local airport was BHX, having worked at airports most of my life I hate airports but I loved the smaller terminal at BHX, until they let the loco (cheapskates) into the terminal that was, travelling on Air France, KLM, SAS, Swiss, Lufthansa etc. regional (up to B737 size) aircraft from a business type terminal was just perfect ..... until they let the loco's in that was!

Model SEN on BHX's smaller terminal, minus any loco's, and it'll be a step in the right direction.

[Nakata77]

Embrace change Phileas Fogg - sounds like you're afraid to leave the past. All this talk about Dash 7's and MD-87's. LOL!

I'm afraid the judgement on loco's is not very politically correct either. They don't just cater for cheapskates you know. Loco's have been great at proving you can cut out a lot of bull**** in business.

I think the reason it was so wonderful to fly through BHX terminals before loco's arrived was because all the airlines were operating at 50-60% loads and charging an arm and a leg to get anywhere.

Loco's also responsible for adding competition, therefore kicking the traditional carriers into improving their own operations and becoming more efficient.

SEN, i agree with AirLCY, should be targeting (as im sure they are) Flybe for 3 or 4 based aircraft. Whether that is Dash 8, ERJ-175 or ERJ-190 is open to debate.

[Expressflight]

North South

You're correct about the TORA and TODA figures having been transposed in the planning document but not, unfortunately, about the reason for SEN having a TODA limited to 1,799m.

SEN is a Code 3C aerodrome because its runway width is 37m. To attain Code 4 status it would need a runway width of 45m and this is impossible to achieve due to runway strip width requirements. CAP 168 states that for a Code 3C aerodrome 'the greater of TODA or ASDA can be be from 1,200m up to but not including 1,800m'.
Hence the declared limit of 1,799m for SEN's extended runway: nothing to do with RESA limitations.

I agree with others that Flybe is a likely candidate for SEN operations. In fact, they were on the point of basing two Q400s there a few years ago and a four year agreement was drawn up. They had planned to operate 146 W-patterns as well but, unfortunately, they were just replacing them with the E195 and it was discovered than SEN's LDA on 06 of 1,285m was too short for that new type in 'Wet' runway conditions so the plan was abandoned. The new LDA's of 1,604m will obviously eliminate this problem for both the E195 and larger types such as the A319.

Edit: I should also have mentioned that the ASDA on both 06 & 24 will be 1,739m, not the lower figure for 06 as mentioned by North South.

[Phileas Fogg]

Nakata77,

You are very much mistaken, I am a business traveller, whether I'm paying for my own travel or not I do endeavour to keep the budget to a minimum however.

You talk 'sh1t' that ALL the airlines, except loco's, operate at 50/60% load factors whilst charging an arm and a leg, so often loco's are unable to provide me with the schedule I require and indeed, so often, it is these loco's that, often by deception, charge an arm and a leg.

Some examples:

I would occasionally be required to travel BHX/MXP/BHX, no loco operates the route, loco's operate to/from BGY which, to me, is as much use as a chocolate tea pot.

BHX/FCO/BHX, a loco operated this route but it was cheaper to fly with Swiss, with quick connections in ZRH, 3 flights daily and a beer and a snack on each and every sector, likewise Swiss were cheaper to MXP than the loco to BGY.

BHX/DUS/BHX, no loco operated the route, Lufty can be reasonably priced and the one time Lufty were too expensive I routed via AMS to DUS with KLM.

BHX/KBP/BHX, no loco operates this route, often I would KLM it via AMS or Lufty it via DUS, 50 seater CRJ's all the way to Ukraine and back!

BHX/CDG/BHX, no loco operates the route, AF (CityJet) have some very good fares!

BHX/RIX/BHX, no loco operated the route, SAS via CPH and/or KLM via AMS served this purpose!

BHX/MNL/BHX, yes this must be a prime loco route, I must be living in the past because I'm of the impression that, optimumly, to fly this route I should think about KLM or Emirates but what do I know, I'm living in the past!

And just what is so "LOL" about MD87's? SAS are operating them , a nicely sized aircraft, and with functioning undercarriages unlike another aircraft type I could mention!

I stand by my words, "To hell with loco's"!

"Dash 8" Nakata77? Are you sure you're not afraid to leave the past?

[NorthSouth]

Expressflight:SEN is a Code 3C aerodrome because its runway width is 37m. To attain Code 4 status it would need a runway width of 45m and this is impossible to achieve due to runway strip width requirements. CAP 168 states that for a Code 3C aerodrome 'the greater of TODA or ASDA can be be from 1,200m up to but not including 1,800m'.
Hence the declared limit of 1,799m for SEN's extended runway: nothing to do with RESA limitationsThanks for that, interesting, and I don't disagree with you that any airfield with a TODA or ASDA of 1800 or more *ought* to be a Code 4, and then, according to CAP 168, *ought* to have a runway width of at least 45m, which then *ought* to mean that no airfield with a runway width <45m can have a TODA >1799. But how then do you explain the following:

Southampton TODA 02 1805m, TODA 20 1831m, runway width 37m
Carlisle TODA 25 1824m, runway width 30m
Lydd TODA 03 1979m, runway width 32m

NS

[Expressflight]

North South

I think I read somewhere that an allowance of 10% above the 1,799m figure could be allowed at the discretion of the CAA, which fits the Lydd case. Perhaps it applied only to aerodromes which had TODAs greater than 1,800m when the rule came into being, I really don't know.

I long since gave up trying to explain or understand some of the decisions made by the CAA over the years.

[TCAS FAN]

The + 10% methodology appears to be no longer in use. I've tried over the past few years to get the Aerodrome Standards Department, SRG to permit its adoption for an 1199 M (Code 2) runway with a considerably longer ASDA and TODA but have repeatedly received "No" from ASD. Their attitude has been that ICAO Annex 14 does not provide for it, so as its a Code 2 runway, 1199 metres is all you get unless you want to widen the runway to 30 metres and qualify for Code 3.

Any deviation from Annex 14 Standards would require the UK to file a "Difference", which UK policy now appears to dictate that this will not be done unless absolutely essential (to the CAA).

May be SOU and LYD have some form of "grandfather rights", may be for not much longer. Best of luck SEN, if you get it I'll be on the phone to ASD as soon as I see the AIP amendment.

[TCAS FAN]

The + 10% methodology appears to be no longer in use. I've tried over the past few years to get the Aerodrome Standards Department, SRG to permit its adoption for an 1199 M (Code 2) runway with a considerably longer ASDA and TODA but have repeatedly received "No" from ASD. Their attitude has been that ICAO Annex 14 does not provide for it, so as its a Code 2 runway, 1199 metres is all you get unless you want to widen the runway to 30 metres and qualify for Code 3.

Any deviation from Annex 14 Standards would require the UK to file a "Difference", which UK policy now appears to dictate that this will not be done unless absolutely essential (to the CAA).

May be SOU, LYD, Carlisle have some form of "grandfather rights", may be for not much longer. Best of luck SEN, if you get it I'll be on the phone to ASD as soon as I see the AIP amendment.

[student88]

Heads up to Southend spotters!

Tomorrow (14th December) 2 EZY A319s will be passing through SEN

1) G-EZDC STN-SEN DEP 1200 ARR 1245
2) G-EZAM SEN-STN DEP 1320 ARR 1405

Have fun!