|
Dundee-2
VLM Fokker 50 parked at DND since Sunday, not sure if its there for work by Loganair in the hanger. Or could it be ACMI to replace the current ATR from DOT.
|
The ATR is still operating the STN route.
|
The lease on the DOT ATR that has been operating on behalf of Loganair for the last few months ends on 31st October. Loganair will from the 1st to the 14th November lease ATT42 from the GCI based Aurigny to operate the DND-STN route. Loganair will then use a SF3 between the 15th November and 20th December.
Does anyone know what the loads have been like on the route since the ATR has been operating it? |
With Loganair starting ops from Carlisle to Southend from June, would it make sense to move the DND-STN to SEN. Thus having all London flights consolidated at the one airport.
Southend is just as easy to get to Central London (Trains operate to Liverpool St as well) |
Originally Posted by goldeneye
(Post 10080891)
With Loganair starting ops from Carlisle to Southend from June, would it make sense to move the DND-STN to SEN. Thus having all London flights consolidated at the one airport.
Southend is just as easy to get to Central London (Trains operate to Liverpool St as well) |
Originally Posted by SWBKCB
(Post 10080894)
Does the PSO specify the destination airport?
|
But one worthwhile for connections to the general London area & perhaps even farther afield...Over 200 airline destinations from STN as example...2nd busiest coach station in the UK as another...
The PSO is conducted for the benefit of the passengers not the airline!... However the contract must be well into the second & last year now so time will tell how it will evolve or not... Ms Kelly may have to be consulted!!.. |
Flew from Stansted to Dundee on Wednesday morning.
6 pax disembarked from the DND STN, 10 of us boarded northbound. Back on Thursday evening - I think the plane sits on the apron all day after it's morning arrival - and about 15-20 pax boarded. The number of passengers who argued with the airport staff about their luggage size... completely unaware that a Ryanair 737 is a different beast to a Saab 340! Yes - they name dropped! Service was very nice - there was an unaccompanied passenger and Loganair were excellent with them. But Stansted. Urgh. It is much improved - the security queues are insane - although to their credit - they move really quite quickly. It doesn't really matter if there are 200 destinations from Stansted - you're going to be left high and dry if Loganair are late (or indeed your inbound flight from one of the over 200 destinations)... I do think Southend or London City would be better for Loganair, but I imagine Stansted is cheap. |
Originally Posted by SealinkBF
(Post 10125186)
Flew from Stansted to Dundee on Wednesday morning.
6 pax disembarked from the DND STN, 10 of us boarded northbound. Back on Thursday evening - I think the plane sits on the apron all day after it's morning arrival - and about 15-20 pax boarded.
Originally Posted by SealinkBF
(Post 10125186)
I do think Southend or London City would be better for Loganair, but I imagine Stansted is cheap.
|
If the aircraft sits around doing nothing, why don't Loganair re-instate their old DND-BHD-DND, DND-BHX-DND or possibly Eastern's DND-MAN-DND?
|
Originally Posted by EK77WNCL
(Post 10128248)
If the aircraft sits around doing nothing, why don't Loganair re-instate their old DND-BHD-DND, DND-BHX-DND or possibly Eastern's DND-MAN-DND?
|
Maybe they've worked out that it makes more money (loses less!) sat on the ground doing nothing... :ok:
|
Originally Posted by SWBKCB
(Post 10128345)
Maybe they've worked out that it makes more money (loses less!) sat on the ground doing nothing... :ok:
Last time I looked there was a nice big well-connected international airport just an hour's drive south, which is not only commercial but from where fares are one helluva lot cheaper. It's not as if Tayside is an island. Most land-based inhabitants find being within an hour or so catchment area of an international airport is not grounds for local subsidy. |
Not a huge amount going on at Dundee these days, although the Stansted service now has a codeshare with Emirates which is good news. I note that the Stansted PSO will be up in March, so hopefully this will be renewed. Could we see Loganair will moving to Southend given that they will be flying there from Carlisle? (If that ever goes ahead!) Though of course, this would impact on the EK codeshare.
I note that the Tay Cities deal has included a £9.5 million investment in and around the airport. https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news...of-investment/ £9.5 million investment from the Scottish Government in and around Dundee Airport. Aimed at improving aviation facilities within the region, improving air traffic control modernisation, securing/marketing new routes and enhancing airport facilities to support passenger growth. Also includes consideration of the “opportunities arising from the Heathrow expansion”. . |
maybe be some primrose oil dart guns for that witch that is meant o be ATC?
Radar too expensive... the runway is short and narrow Loads are utter ****e why would any one spend a penny there? |
I guess the Aberdeen ring road will draw a bit of trade away when it opens in a few weeks knocking 20 or 30 + minutes off the journey to the airport from the south ?
|
Is it soon that the PSO gets offered out for tendering again to interested parties
|
Dundee flights to Stansted could move to different London airport
Air links between London and Dundee could be set for a shake up after it emerged funding for the current Stansted route is only set to be available until later this year. The Tele has learned Dundee City Council is willing to contribute money to keep flights between the city’s airport and London Stansted going until October 31. The local authority has pledged £145,000 to support the route as part of a public service obligation (PSO) package agreed between itself, the Department for Transport, Transport Scotland and route operators Loganair. The proposal was distributed to councillors ahead of a meeting last night and agreed upon without prior discussion. Those involved have declined to comment on what has been agreed. However, the Tele understands the intention is to put the arrangement out to tender so another airport can make a bid. A source said: “The idea seems to be to try to get somewhere other than Stansted.” For the last two years, the PSO agreement has guaranteed £3.7 million of funding for the Dundee-London link. The council contributed £400,000, with the Scottish and Westminster governments providing £1.8m and £1.4m apiece. The funding runs dry at the end of this month – after which the new, shorter arrangement is likely to take over. A Scottish Government spokesman said: “We are currently in discussions with Dundee City Council on the way forward for the Dundee-London public service obligation air link.” A Department for Transport spokeswoman said: “The UK Government is in discussion with both Dundee City Council and the Scottish Government about the future of the Dundee-London route. There will be an update in due course.” Loganair, which operates the route, and Highlands and Islands Airports Limited, which operates Dundee Airport, declined to comment. |
Probably hoping that like Newquay they could get a Heathrow link.
|
Is it to give flexibility to the PSO allowing Loganair to consolidate at SEN? Remember they’ll have SEN-ABZ, CAX, GLA + SYY with Dundee and Derry up the road at STN. That said, STN offers the worldwide connections via EK. |
Originally Posted by AirportPlanner1
(Post 10430820)
Is it to give flexibility to the PSO allowing Loganair to consolidate at SEN? Remember they’ll have SEN-ABZ, CAX, GLA + SYY with Dundee and Derry up the road at STN. That said, STN offers the worldwide connections via EK. |
Comparing STN/SEN it would make no sense from the passenger perspective to operate the PSO into Southend as it would total zero gain in benefit & short change passengers.
PSO is for the passenger/user not for the operational suitability of an incumbent airline. But as I have said before everyone had better ask Lorraine what she wishes. |
Looking at the passenger numbers from the CAA website there were 1438 passengers in all of January ( 23 each way each day??). 21185 passengers for the whole of 2018 which spread over half of the £3.7m equates to a subsidy of £87 per passenger ( each way??) and that's before subsidising the airport itself which looses money .
bb |
Dundee is listed as a destination on the Emirates website because of the thru service.
Passengers can travel via STN to Emirates network of 155 destinations on a single ticket & with thru checked luggage. Because DND/STN is a PSO passengers flying to London & onward with EK save APD of £78 in economy & £515 in business..charges which of course will be paid in EDI. |
bad bear helps make the point...how then does a switch to SEN improve those figures?
But misses the point generally tho with PSO. A/C type utilised in January SB340. |
The route averaged 15 per flight in Jan, a drop-off is to be expected because the first week or two are slow for business travel plus at least one flight must be missing as it went to SEN (I was flying to GLA that foggy morning). 17-18 seems the ‘normal’ average. |
I can't imagine too many people connecting onto the EK service especially given that you can go direct from Edinbrugh and Glasgow just down the road and that the prices appear to be quite a bit more anyway. PSO is for the passenger/user not for the operational suitability of an incumbent airline |
Originally Posted by SWBKCB
(Post 10431077)
Absolutely! What has the operational convenience of the airline got to do with it? Only argument would be if they could offer the same level of benefit at a reduced cost to the taxpayer.
I’m also sceptical many people use the EK service, especially as northbound there is a 6+ hour connection. |
Originally Posted by bad bear
(Post 10431018)
Looking at the passenger numbers from the CAA website there were 1438 passengers in all of January ( 23 each way each day??). 21185 passengers for the whole of 2018 which spread over half of the £3.7m equates to a subsidy of £87 per passenger ( each way??) and that's before subsidising the airport itself which looses money .
bb |
I would suspect that most passengers as mentioned above are London O&D so moving to SEN is not really going to make much difference to the passenger experience as travel time in to Liverpool St is roughly the same as from STN.
If SEN is offering better fees than STN then surely this is better for the tax payer. |
Whilst it is 100% certain that the use of the peak time slots would be hugely productive to STN in pax numbers if the slots were allocated elsewhere (18 then v the average factor 180+ ) might it be the case the slots & costings to the airline are Government controlled as part of PSO obligations.
Regarding EK timings northbound that will change nicely with the start of the second daily UAE 67 from 1.7 The reason for using EK as an illustration is clear however as the DND operator is extremely happy "promoting" their airport with EK/DXB & worldwide connections thru STN so therefore if a change of airport in the South is to be considered a better connector over STN would be LHR with multitudes of the same possibilities. My contribution was essentially STN v SEN & that Southend brings nothing extra to the table. |
The Dundee PSO has existed long before any EK flights to STN, so it was never intended to provide longhaul connections in the first place (remember that when the London route was operated on a purely commercial basis by Suckling/Scot Airways, it went into LCY). Obviously the primary purpose of the route is to provide a connection to the UK capital. If connections were of any real importance, the PSO tender would have specified a gateway better suited for that. So I really don't see a reason why not to move to SEN. For a short domestic flight, SEN would be a better travel experience anyway as time required at the airport for getting through the terminal, check-in and security and onwards to the gate area would be much shorter at departure and on arrival it would be a matter of five minutes from the aircraft to the train station.
As for "the PSO is not for the airline" - it is a tender and if Loganair feels fit to submit a bid for SEN that is cheaper than for STN, it would reduce the subsidy required. Unless there are compelling reasons why public money should be spent on a more expensive STN link, it would be a non-brainer to go for SEN. And I don't feel that allowing a few people a connection to a Ryanair flight for a tenner or to do a two-stop-connection on EK from Dundee instead of a one-stop connection from EDI, is such a compelling reason. Plus, unless there are other bidders (which apparently has not been the case for quite a few UK PSOs recently due to a lack of regional airlines). Loganair would be free anyway to only bid for a SEN route as the London gateway in those PSO tenders is never specified. |
The history of Dundee-London is a given of course.
Again I mention EK only to illustrate the kudos thus enabled for DND marketing. Attitudes & expectations do change too of course. Many cities in the UK are keen again to promote themselves with hoped "prestigious" connections to LHR. I wonder why the NQY PSO is switched to LHR certainly for connections. No problem LOG removing to SEN though I would still regard it as ultimately inhibiting for the passenger when other more attractive options for Dundee are available. Ask Lorraine is she is happy if so then we all are. |
Originally Posted by SealinkBF
(Post 10125186)
6 pax disembarked from the DND STN, 10 of us boarded northbound.
Back on Thursday evening - I think the plane sits on the apron all day after it's morning arrival - and about 15-20 pax boarded. Sadly I have no cause to use the route. |
Originally Posted by southside bobby
(Post 10431281)
I wonder why the NQY PSO is switched to LHR certainly for connections.
No problem LOG removing to SEN though I would still regard it as ultimately inhibiting for the passenger when other more attractive options for Dundee are available |
I acknowledge that for LOG it may be a good option for themselves if the new SEN routes become successful...(that discussion not for here)
Good point perhaps though regarding BE & grandfather rights at LHR. Has that been proved though that PSO grants those rights? My question regarding slots for DND at STN at peak times & associated landing charges too being perhaps protected by Government & not endangered by commercial ops remains unanswered too. |
Not sure where Flybe's slots for NQY come from (GCI is operated with ex Cobalt Air slots). Just tried to find something out about it and found an article from the Independent that they were part of the IAG/BD merger remedy slots portfolio. Straightforward use of such slots is unlikely though, as those slots are route specific and NQY and GCI are none of the handful of routes that are covered. However, the FT mentioned in an article that the government allowed Flybe to "repurpose" its existing slots at Heathrow, which suggests that the slots are indeed former remedy slots (but probably not those for ABZ and LHR as those routes continue to be operated by BE). Before, my suspicion was that BE was babysitting/grandfathering slots for VS, but this does not appear to be the case. If they are using remedy slots, the interesting question is what owuld happen if an airline shows up that intends to serve one of the orutes for which they were designated as remedy slots in 2012 (e.g. Cairo, Riyadh, Nice).
As for PSOs at LHR, I don't think there is currently a mechanism for automatic access to LHR if the route is operated under a PSO scheme. Making slots available for PSOs in the future has been used as a bait by the airport in the discussion about an expansion of LHR, though. |
Thanks for the research & reply & agree finding answers does appears rather opaque.
UK cities & airports hoping for access at some stage to LHR particularly with the 3rd R/W have as you state been baited by the airport & authorities to enhance their (LHR`s) credentials. Not sure if those slots are to be PSO or normal commercial ops granted/allocated under coercion from Government. |
BE’s NQY slots
The slots for BE’s NQY Service are former remedy slots. This extract from the original IAG / bmi remedy explains why they were allocated them: "Where a New Air Services Provider has operated Competitive Air Service on two or more Identified City Pairs using Slots in accordance with these Commitments for at least two (2) consecutive IATA seasons, it shall be entitled to apply for any Slots still available… to operate Frequencies on any European Short-haul City Pair…” So once Flybe had done one summer and one winter on LHR-ABZ and -EDI, it had access to the remaining remedy slots to use for European routes of there choosing - and it chose Newquay. The slots were held by IAG, which had to give up for them |
Flew from Dundee to Stansted and all pax were asked to fill in a survey form which mentioned there was to be a new round of bidding later this year for the route
I had thought the main source for the PSO money was to end in spring 2019, and the emergency funds from Dundee council would expire in late October 2019 Has a fresh source of funds been found, or is Loganair just trying to encourage somebody to find funds ? The most obvious airlines to fly this route (even if UK stays in the EU) are presumably Eastern or Loganair... seems unlikely many other airlines with aircraft with 30-40 seats would be particularly interested unless money was significantly increased |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 16:43. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.