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-   -   Manchester-2 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/599775-manchester-2-a.html)

Ex Cargo Clown 1st Jul 2019 12:25


Originally Posted by Suzeman (Post 10502938)
So are you suggesting MAN mothball R2?


T3 was originally built as a joint venture between the Airport and BA for a mix of BA domestic, European and long haul flights. In the end BA changed their strategy and walked away.
.:{

Spot on I've tried to allude to this before. T3 was not designed for it's current purpose. BA really threw MAN under the proverbial bus. I believe it's very difficult even extending it toward Males/APH because of underground utility issues.

Ex Cargo Clown 1st Jul 2019 12:42


Originally Posted by mufc4evr (Post 10506710)
Hainan are usually pretty full (like Saudia) BUT the rates Hainan charge are ridiculously cheap. Quite a bit cheaper per kilo than the rest

China-Man rates are ridiculously low because there is massive over-capacity on the UK flights. You can near enough get a PMC for £300++.

Nostoodian 1st Jul 2019 21:49


Originally Posted by Ex Cargo Clown (Post 10506935)
China-Man rates are ridiculously low because there is massive over-capacity on the UK flights. You can near enough get a PMC for £300++.

If this is the case then is the MAN - PEK service even profitable and sustainable using an A330-300? It would seem a 787-900 daily service would be a much better fit as others have said. It seems like a strange decision by Hainan not to change equipment on the route. The route can't be doing that bad as Hainan was thinking of starting a 3 x daily Guangzhou route not long ago. Checking through multiple dates later in the year, economy fares seemed quite cheap so yield could be quite low. Then again there's plenty of competition from other airlines as you can fly to Beijing indirect for £350 return on certain months later in autumn. Maybe Hainan knows something we don't. With the Virgin takeover of Flybe and possible Thomas Cook long haul in the future, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Virgin could take on a Chinese route like Beijing with the opening of Daxing International. They already serve Shanghai from Heathrow. Does Virgin have any codeshares with Chinese Airlines?

Rutan16 2nd Jul 2019 06:10


Originally Posted by Nostoodian (Post 10507303)
If this is the case then is the MAN - PEK service even profitable and sustainable using an A330-300? It would seem a 787-900 daily service would be a much better fit as others have said. It seems like a strange decision by Hainan not to change equipment on the route. The route can't be doing that bad as Hainan was thinking of starting a 3 x daily Guangzhou route not long ago. Checking through multiple dates later in the year, economy fares seemed quite cheap so yield could be quite low. Then again there's plenty of competition from other airlines as you can fly to Beijing indirect for £350 return on certain months later in autumn. Maybe Hainan knows something we don't. With the Virgin takeover of Flybe and possible Thomas Cook long haul in the future, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Virgin could take on a Chinese route like Beijing with the opening of Daxing International. They already serve Shanghai from Heathrow. Does Virgin have any codeshares with Chinese Airlines?

What part of the political imperative set from high office donít you quite understand .
Chinese carriers do NOT need to turn a profit in the same way Western carries do to deliver shareholder value.

European mainstream carriers including the alliance players canít compete effectively into and out of the Chinese market much beyond Beijing and Shanghai due to the levels of subsidies offered from regional and central government departments under those initiatives and policies set up by the highest leadership of the PRC.

The Virgin Shanghai -Heathrow route carries an Air China code, however thatís not very useful as they arenít that big regionally beyond Shanghai.

This service is little more than a quasi charter carrying CAISSA and state approved Chinese tourists with remaining seats available to the market oh and also being a freight truck . Today the flight is very near full both ways with SLF and boxes.

Most of those boxes will have come from the South East and central manufacturing districts and not from Beijing its self.

As alluded to by a n other, carrier box rates from China are pretty low, however that actor is just another coin in the Belt and Road initiative to peddle more Chinese goods into Western markets at silly rates . China does this to reduce and mitigate many of the WTO tariffs again a political play.

Usual mantra applies Chinese aviation ainít all it seems .


Nostoodian 2nd Jul 2019 07:24


Originally Posted by Rutan16 (Post 10507482)


What part of the political imperative set from high office donít you quite understand .
Chinese carriers do NOT need to turn a profit in the same way Western carries do to deliver shareholder value.

European mainstream carriers including the alliance players canít compete effectively into and out of the Chinese market much beyond Beijing and Shanghai due to the levels of subsidies offered from regional and central government departments under those initiatives and policies set up by the highest leadership of the PRC.

The Virgin Shanghai -Heathrow route carries an Air China code, however thatís not very useful as they arenít that big regionally beyond Shanghai.

This service is little more than a quasi charter carrying CAISSA and state approved Chinese tourists with remaining seats available to the market oh and also being a freight truck . Today the flight is very near full both ways with SLF and boxes.

Most of those boxes will have come from the South East and central manufacturing districts and not from Beijing its self.

As alluded to by a n other, carrier box rates from China are pretty low, however that actor is just another coin in the Belt and Road initiative to peddle more Chinese goods into Western markets at silly rates . China does this to reduce and mitigate many of the WTO tariffs again a political play.

Usual mantra applies Chinese aviation ainít all it seems .


No reason to be so condescending. I am happy to learn from others like yourself about how the aviation industry works especially in China. I sometimes I wonder why some folk feel the need to talk down to others so much on this forum? Please correct me where I need to be corrected but please can you try to be less patronising?

As you seem very clued up on Chinese aviation. What do you think Hainan's reason would be for possibly pulling their Edinburgh service in the future?

bjones4 2nd Jul 2019 10:51

The Premiair terminal is now taking reservations, interestingly after all the PR about it being the VIP experience that is available to everyone, it's actually only available to people flying Adria, Ethiopian, Oman, PIA, Qatar, TAP or TCX.

HKGBOY 2nd Jul 2019 14:18

Not only that it appears to be £50 for hand baggage only or £100 if you have checked luggage.
The artist impression of the interior makes it look no different than the escape lounge.

Think I'll pass- underwhelming to say the least.

Mr Mac 2nd Jul 2019 15:40

Well came through T2 this last week, and apart from the new car park I can not say I was impressed. Cafe / food outlets of pretty poor standard and over priced. Also how come so many Brits believe that swilling pints at 6.30 am is a good way to either fly or start a holiday , I have not seen it elsewhere, and I live in Munich much of the time and believe me Bavarian's drink beer a plenty. Outbound on JET 2 we got bussed out to distant stand for 757 Jet 2 to Palma despite air-bridge on stand being unoccupied. Jet 2 do what they do, and flight ok. Return on new 737 8OO Sunday night arrived slightly early having avoided storms over France but then had to wait for air bridge to be connected properly as first attempt failed. Then had long walk down T2 to Immigration. My impression remains that it is a value engineered development and really not worthy of the region it looks to serve. Luckily I get to use T1 most of the time with LH and EK so limited exposure to T2.

Regards
Mr Mac

Matty Rich 83 2nd Jul 2019 19:13


Originally Posted by Mr Mac (Post 10507903)
Well came through T2 this last week, and apart from the new car park I can not say I was impressed. Cafe / food outlets of pretty poor standard and over priced. Also how come so many Brits believe that swilling pints at 6.30 am is a good way to either fly or start a holiday , I have not seen it elsewhere, and I live in Munich much of the time and believe me Bavarian's drink beer a plenty. Outbound on JET 2 we got bussed out to distant stand for 757 Jet 2 to Palma despite air-bridge on stand being unoccupied. Jet 2 do what they do, and flight ok. Return on new 737 8OO Sunday night arrived slightly early having avoided storms over France but then had to wait for air bridge to be connected properly as first attempt failed. Then had long walk down T2 to Immigration. My impression remains that it is a value engineered development and really not worthy of the region it looks to serve. Luckily I get to use T1 most of the time with LH and EK so limited exposure to T2.

Regards
Mr Mac

Not sure what you were expecting...you were in the current terminal 2 that is yet to be refurbished from next summer when the new T2 extension opens.
At what time was your outbound flight operating? The stand with the unused airbridge may have been free for a long haul aircraft arriving before your departure, with the airfield capacity issues at the moment there is sometimes no choice but to bus passengers to remote stands.
As for your arrival, maybe the person operating the airbridge was new to the job and being trained and you as for your long walk to immigration, thatís hit and miss depending of course which stand the aircraft parks at...I wouldnít necessary call that a big problem...unless your a disabled passenger of course.
As for the early morning drink...completely agree, each to their own but no need really.

Rutan16 2nd Jul 2019 19:20

Sorry didn’t mean to be condescending apologies.

HNA GROUP haven’t yet canned Edinburgh- Beijing however they are looking at what they call a partner airline and that could well mean passing the route over to their group quasi charter carrier CAPITAL AIRLINES as they work very closely with CAISSA the Chinese tour agents (also an HNA company)
CAPITAL seem to specialise in the very marginal very low frequency routes for the group.


FFMAN 2nd Jul 2019 22:35


Originally Posted by Mr Mac (Post 10507903)
Well came through T2 this last week, and apart from the new car park I can not say I was impressed. Cafe / food outlets of pretty poor standard and over priced. Also how come so many Brits believe that swilling pints at 6.30 am is a good way to either fly or start a holiday , I have not seen it elsewhere, and I live in Munich much of the time and believe me Bavarian's drink beer a plenty. Outbound on JET 2 we got bussed out to distant stand for 757 Jet 2 to Palma despite air-bridge on stand being unoccupied. Jet 2 do what they do, and flight ok. Return on new 737 8OO Sunday night arrived slightly early having avoided storms over France but then had to wait for air bridge to be connected properly as first attempt failed. Then had long walk down T2 to Immigration. My impression remains that it is a value engineered development and really not worthy of the region it looks to serve. Luckily I get to use T1 most of the time with LH and EK so limited exposure to T2.

Regards
Mr Mac

I'm often very critical of the MAN experience myself but I think your comments are a bit unfair. The actual T2 extension is not done yet and is not even visible from the inside, your experience relates to the 27 year old orginal T2. The new construction that is on view and in use is the new Pier A and link corridor which I've used twice now and is, frankly, fine.
On airbridges, I think with the best will in the world, a Jet2 flight from Majorca isn't going to get VIP treatment - Jet2 self handle anyway so if there's a problem it's usually something to take up with them rather than the airport.
On the walk to immigration - luck of the draw - depends where you park, T2 is now a very large expanse and if you're unlucky you could end up with a long walk. It's unrealistic to enjoy all the routes and timing options of a larger airport and get all the convenience of a smaller one.(although I've landed with hand baggage on an overnight long-haul and been in the taxi 20 mins after landing - it can be good)
....and yeah.. the beer thing. Don't get it either but it's not uniquely British. I flew in from Dusseldorf on the first flight from there a few weeks ago and there were Germans a plenty knocking the stuff back at silly o'clock.

easyflyer83 2nd Jul 2019 23:32

Some fair comments on both sides but i must take exception to FFMANís comment about an LS flight unlikely to get the VIP treatment.

Itís all a myth about airlines getting preferential treatment based on the type of airline it is. Ultimately it comes down to how big a customer they are for the airport. In Jet 2ís case (and easyJet & Ryanair for that matter) they are bloody big customers of MAG and with that comes leverage.

FFMAN 3rd Jul 2019 00:11

No slight intended on Jet2 - they're great at what they do. It was more of a comment related to 'you get what you pay for' being a loco and pointing out that any handling issues are their own - being self-handlers - rather than something to criticize MAN about

easyflyer83 3rd Jul 2019 00:18


Originally Posted by FFMAN (Post 10508232)
No slight intended on Jet2 - they're great at what they do. It was more of a comment related to 'you get what you pay for' being a loco and pointing out that any handling issues are their own - being self-handlers - rather than something to criticize MAN about

True in that airlines are the master of their own destiny regarding handling but actually I find Jet 2 to have probably the best handling of any airline at MAN, particularly front of house.

Mr Mac 3rd Jul 2019 17:50

Matty Rich
Out bound flight to Palma was 8.30am with return on the 23.15. JET 2 are fine for what they do and indeed appear to it very well judging by the load factors on my two flights. I do not use them apart from this one week each year so can not comment further and it is unfair tom compare with the LH/SQ/EK which form the bulk of my flying these days.

FFMAN
I went for a walk down the new pier a little way as nothing else to do, and would say my comments remain the same, its a bus stop. As for length of walk I do hope they are going to put some form of travelator in, as by the time they have finished you will be walking some distance to immigration. On the plus side I did for the first time notice the PIA and SQ signs for transit passengers which I had not noticed before, despite being a not infrequent passenger with SQ.
Kind regards
Mr Mac


easyflyer83 3rd Jul 2019 18:47

There have been a few comments regarding the new T2 pier, particularly regarding the lack of amenities.

To put it into context, none of MANís gate piers or gate areas have much in the way of facilities. The use of piers is specifically to board aircraft. You donít want much in the way of facilities because if you end up on the wrong pier, you will ultimately have further to walk and in any case, gates are only announced/shown close to boarding so what is the point?

You go to Manchester Piccadilly, or most other mainline stations, and you wonít find any facilities on the platforms there for the same reason.

Asturias56 3rd Jul 2019 19:11

A lot of serious airports now have lounges, toilets, food spots, bars, duty free etc in the piers - they help disperse the great unwashed across the airport footprint

They also encourage people to get near their gates before "FINAL CALL FOR MR ASTURIAS" - who is a kilometer away in the central services area

See Schipol....................

PS I went thorough the newly rebuilt Reading Station a month ago and they have a load of facilities on each platform..................

eye2eye5 3rd Jul 2019 19:31


Originally Posted by easyflyer83 (Post 10508852)
There have been a few comments regarding the new T2 pier, particularly regarding the lack of amenities.

To put it into context, none of MANís gate piers or gate areas have much in the way of facilities. The use of piers is specifically to board aircraft. You donít want much in the way of facilities because if you end up on the wrong pier, you will ultimately have further to walk and in any case, gates are only announced/shown close to boarding so what is the point?

You go to Manchester Piccadilly, or most other mainline stations, and you wonít find any facilities on the platforms there for the same reason.

The last time I went from Piccadilly to Edinburgh by train, there were catering facilities within two minutes of the platform and the train itself.

easyflyer83 3rd Jul 2019 20:39

Platforms 1-11 at Piccadilly have nothing on them.
12/13 have minimal facilities.

The term we all use and widely accept is Departure Lounge. A pier is not a lounge, nor is it part of the departure lounge. Plus Pier B & C in terminal 1 and the gate areas of 2 & 3 have managed with no/few facilities for years and no one has ever kicked up a fuss.

Sure some airports, mainly hubs, might have a few facilities on their piers that cater for long haul flights where the gate number is often known well in advance. MAN itself will also have a pier with airline lounges within it but they are more of a destination for pax within the airport and crucially, those airlines with a longe there will likely be given a gate on that pier.

MAN announces gates close to STD, whether you agree with it or not, and so you donít keep facilities on the pier. All you need is space, seating and toilets. A newsstand offering magazines and a drinks chiller is a Ďnice to haveí but not essential.

Asturias56 4th Jul 2019 07:48

That isn't the point - it helps the PAX and spreads the load within the airport

Late gate changes (ie less than 1 hour before departure) are very rare in my experience and normally only occur if a plane is late or goes technical at the gate

Any half decent airport can manage this - but MAN seems stuck somewhere in the 1970's passenger wise I'm afraid - even GLA is better than this.........


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