BER not before 2014 !
 

Just breaking on German news: Berlin Brandenburg not to open before 2014 !

Absolutely amazing IMHO.:eek:

Federal transport minister was discussing this quite openly on 26 Dec last year - would be rare for someone like him to talk publicly about a project as being "in danger" without good reason for saying so....

Minister: Berlin airport date is in danger - The Local

Not like the old days :E

Prefer they be late than having someone make the trains run on time, that was tried last time and didn't work out.

racedo - you've got the wrong dictator - it was the one in Rome who loved trains

Well it's now official. Regardless of the reasons I still find this quite amazing.

Typical German inefficiency, I'm afraid.

Doesn't really surprise me, Berlin never really has lived up to the whole German efficiency model!

A great deal of hand wringing from opposition politicians on Morgen Magazine (ZDF TV) this morning about the whole debacle. More heads seem likely to roll.

Travelling on the DB these days, things even ain't what they used to be on the railway either. Delays, almost unheard of 30 years ago, seem to be the norm these days, rather than the exception.

At least they haven't been stupid enough to privatise them!!

Yes they have. Lots of other rail companies are now running franchises in Germany with more to follow..

jdcg

Agreed, but the main rump of the operation is still DB, and you can still through tickets, and buy the best fares without going through booking agencies.

Also, with a login from DB, you can buy and print out paper tickets on line, without having to turn up at the station, credit card in hand, and extract them from infernal machines!!

What I want to know about is how does it affect the airlines that plan use BER:

Firstly Air Berlin is in a poor financial state (mainly due the poor economy and the delays to BER) and is basically living on support from Eithad, if the delays keep coming, do you think this will tip them over the edge? (or push Eithad towards giving up altogether their involvement with AB)

Secondly, will the proposed Lufthansa/Germanwings hub (sort of...) at BER will still go ahead, or will they give up altogether?

Or maybe even Germanwings could fill the gap left by AB (if it goes out of business) in BER, this making the airport one of "LH" major hubs (along with FRA/MUC/DUS/ZRH)?

Quote: "Typical German inefficiency, I'm afraid."

Wasn't the original typical stereotype about blindly following the "rule book" or the "manual"/"instructions"?


Quote: "Travelling on the DB these days, things even ain't what they used to be on the railway either. Delays, almost unheard of 30 years ago, seem to be the norm these days, rather than the exception.

At least they haven't been stupid enough to privatise them!!"

Quote: "Yes they have. Lots of other rail companies are now running franchises in Germany with more to follow.."

Any connections?

Fairdealfrank

I'm not entirely sure this is a DB thread (perhaps there should be a new section "Railways, Stations and Routes"!).

However the answer is yes! The Rurtalbahn, running between Heimbach / Eifel and Düren seamlessly tickets with the DB; and the Vogtlandbahn (owned by Arriva Trains actually) also connect seamlessly with the DB network at many stations, including Regensburg.

Of course the DB already operates trains in the UK (Chiltern Railways and at least one other who's name I can't remember) but for whatever reason, what is possible in Germany seams impossible here!

DB own Arriva, so they run all Welsh Trains, Crosscountry as well as the London Overground and the Tyne & Wear Metro...

Deecie
Also a large chunk of UK freight services through DB Shenka I am told. Anyway as this is an airlines and routes thread back to BER. I have contacts who are involved in this build (having done other airport contracts in the past world wide) and there does seem to have been what could politley be called a disconnect in some aspects of the design. The design from what I am to undrstand has been a little too "fluid" with many late changes some of considerable size and complexity. These will no doubt ome out in the future court case !:E.

BER is not the only farce... whilst DXB extension opened on time, Maskat in Oman was supposed to be open 2012 with a new date of 2014 ($7bil project),

New Doha International Airport in Qatar is now 5 years behind, at the beginning of 2012 the 12th Dec 2012 was the supposed opening date, now it looks like summer 2013 with no firm date.

This will suit some airlines that fly from SXF. Depending on your deal the charges for BER compared with SXF were extortionate!

well given the level of service at SXF and would certainly expect a significant increase if / when BER opens. Is there any plan to continue to operate the current terminal for low cost carrier or is everyone expected to move ?

@atakacs

the plan was/is for all airlines to use the new BER terminal, with the old SXF terminal to be used by the government until their new-build is finished.

given the capacity constraints and the unknown opening date of BER who knows whether they will look at the old SXF terminal again for LCCs.

They have enough runnway capacity, the question is over terminal capacity, remember it can be expanded to deal with more passengers (sadly they did not do it in the first place, they might as well...)

Quote: "BER is not the only farce... whilst DXB extension opened on time, Maskat in Oman was supposed to be open 2012 with a new date of 2014 ($7bil project),

New Doha International Airport in Qatar is now 5 years behind, at the beginning of 2012 the 12th Dec 2012 was the supposed opening date, now it looks like summer 2013 with no firm date."

A lesson here for anyone seriously considering the "Silver Island" option....

Well it depends on how well the project is managed, one good example is HKG (Yes it was delayed one year, but the orginal timeline was far shorter than what could be posibble at the time for a project of that size)

Fairdealfrank
Worked on HKG and yes it was late by 1 year, and as has been stated , there are a number of late running projects world wide concerned with aviation, although I, from my limited experiance of projects of this type would say somtimes the clients programes are a tad unrealistic. However in these times very few contractors will be honest with their clients, as they would possibly lose the job to the contractor who said no problem with dates. Also those in the business know that these projects always have variations / changes which allow extensions to program. Better to win contract, and if a problem 3-5 years down line see you in court if that is the case. Not saying its right, and a Mr Latham argued succesfully against it in the 1990,s when partnering became all the rage, but we are currently back in the sh1t in the old dog eat dog scenario which will result / has led to poor / late bld projects and some unhappy clients. Time to dust of that Latham Report and re invent the wheel again !.:ugh:

Off soap box goodnight all.

Or PTDRUNe! I think there are quite a few of us ferroequineologists here!

BTW, Chiltern certainly operate to "German" punctuality standards, but they have always been one of the leading networks, and iirc SBB where involved at one stage too.

As for BER, it is my understanding the masterplan is for 50m ppa, so there is plenty of room for expansion, which they ought to think about now given the current delays!

Quote: "I'm not entirely sure this is a DB thread (perhaps there should be a new section "Railways, Stations and Routes"!)."

Quote: "Or PTDRUNe! I think there are quite a few of us ferroequineologists here!"

Are we talking integrated transport here?....or is that a flock of pigs flying overhead?

BTW - does anyone know what is actually the problem ?

We have heard about the fire detection & suppression - surely something that can be fixed within a reasonable time frame ? Or is it a conceptual issue (i.e. something that goes beyond execution) ?

Good article (in German) here from Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung - although wonder if they might be slightly biased in favour of Frankfurt airport
Use Google Translate if like me you're German isn't that great

Berliner Flughafen: Die geheime Mängelliste - Flughafen Berlin-Brandenburg - FAZ

Google Translate

BER delayed opening
 

Not a PFI deal is it?

verschlimmbesserung
 

In German there is a word: "verschlimmbesserung" (think that's correctly spelt). It means an improvement that makes things worse.

Currently there's not a politician in the State, City or Federal government in Berlin willing to give a new opening date.

Case of "3 x bitten, 4th time shy"!

BER not before 2014 !
 

Just passed through Berlin this we and was amazed that significant improvement works were underway both in Tegel and Schonefeld. Doesn't bode well for a prompt opening of the new airport !

Delayed opening of BER
 

Shouldn't have been in such a hurry to close THF!

So why the local authorities have been so eagerly destroying all possible alternatives in the entire Brandenburg? As this German article says:The [formerly planned] expansion of the old military airports Neuhardenberg and Eberswalde-Finow for the budget airline Ryanair had been banned by Brandenburg, in order to avoid competition for BER. Eberswalde-Finow is now no longer available for commercial aircraft, because the runway was halved in order to construct a solar power plant there.

What significant improvement works are under way in Schonefeld?

For Tegel see this article.

For SXF some improvements in terminal B (apparently increase of the security check capacity ?):

http://i.imgur.com/eAUPbxfl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zHDfeKOl.jpg

Lots of money spent on airports that where supposed to be closed years ago...

An interesting article regarding a possible partial opening later this year involving easyJet.

berlin airport brandenburg quick opening 2013

Wing of Berlin Airport BER May Open in October 2013 - SPIEGEL ONLINE

And here also,

It would make sense.. the rumours have been floating around for a while.

Interesting idea but even for Easyjet customers you need to have some services (food & drink, car rental, security, etc) that I would not expect to see duplicated between the new and old buildings... Also why spend money in June (see above pictures) for the "old" Easyjet terminal if it is to move in October - doesn't make much sense in my view...

Heard that keeping the unfinished building in shape is costing approx 20mn€ / month - seems pretty steep even by German standards...

Perhaps a minor consideration, but would politics really allow the big new airport in the new German capital to be launched by a British LCC while Lufthansa / Germanwings and Air Berlin remain at Tegel / Schoenefeld ?

Mehdorn who is now in charge ran Air Berlin and in earlier days Deutsche Bahn, and is not likely to be awed by the politicians, who do not know what to do anyway. So it will be interesting if any other airlines increase their presence at SXF before the official opening.

The road, railway and car park infrastructure does not appear to be the problem, bits of the terminal seem to be the main issue. I can see no reason not to operate charter or ethnic flights from there as well. Obviously Air Berlin cannot operate their hub easily across two airports. But if some of the others like Germanwings moved back to SXF it would reduce the pressure on Tegel.

Mehdorn would like to keep Tegel open for some time in paralel after SXF opens. The politicians oppose this. But if SXF has not really opened then nobody can argue, can they?