Sorry if this is turning into a Knock thread, but we travel once or twice a year from the Midlands to the west of Ireland to visit family. Up until 5 years ago we always went by ferry with the car. I then realised we could travel by air into Knock and hire a car and save money. This is what we've done since.

However we visited at Easter and the cheapest airfare I could find was £500(all in) for 5 returns (looked from Bristol, Luton, Birmingham and E Mids), plus car hire. The fast ferry was £200 return (car and 5 passengers), so that is how we travelled. Now I know that £500 (£100/head) is not a bad fare but we have been spoilt by years of paying £50 to £150 for all 5 of us.

Anecdotal I know but the airlines have to remember that the ferry option is still there. Door to door journey times are 6 hours when flying, 9 hours when driving...not too different.

Dan

Dropped CWL to LEI
 

I see Baby have just dropped their Cardiff to Almeria route for this summer. Does this represent a reduction in the number of 'planes at Cardiff?

Driving alternatives
 

I have tried driving from Malaga to Almeria and wouldn't recommend it - The journey seems to last forever, and the time is not that predictable, so you end up in the airport for ages on the way home.

Murcia to Almeria is much more realistic. I think it takes exactly 2 hours if you use the new toll motorway (€13 each way). Alicante is another 60km or so from Murcia, so add another 0.75 hours.

Put it this way, if the options are local UK airport to Murcia or STN/LGW to Almeria, I would chose the former, and do the 2 hour drive in Spain rather than on the M25. Of course, its even less if your final destination is Vera or Mojacar.

Its also worth bearing in mind that it takes half the time to clear the smaller airports of Almeria/Murcia than the larger ones, and the same is true in the UK, with BHX/EMA being twice as quick as LGW/STN.

Once more, in a word.
NO !! :ok:

I have driven regularly to Vera/Mojcar area from LEI, ALC and MJV airports and although LEI is the most convenient (50 mins or so) ALC or MJV are a good alternative as the motorway driving is so much easier than UK.

I heard something in the region of added FAO flights if im not mistaken?

BMI Baby victory / Regional Airports
 

U2 should take the idiotic contract they have with LPL to court. They would make the costs back very quickly on the more profitable routes from MAN.

How stupid is it that GB's biggest airline is being held by an airport carrying barely 5m passengers a year?! U2 does that in less than 2 months!

MUFC - how is the contract between EZY and LPL idiotic ?

Easyjet / Stelios were not some kind of naive bumbling innocents when they signed up with LPL - (expensive) lawyers would have been consulted prior to making big commitments. EZY may now regret what they signed..... but they cannot claim not to have understood what they were getting into.

The Competition Commission in the UK strive for competitive behaviour. This is what allows us to buy things so cheap (Asda v Tesco for example). By U2 and LPL signing this contract it takes away U2's ability to compete across the North West.

No company should be confined to one 'work place'

EZY are a big company with ample legal resources - they can look after themselves. If they want to get out of the contract and think they have a case to argue, they will be able to put up a fight unaided. If they want to lobby the CAA / Dept of Transport / Dept of Trade + Industry / other regulatory bodies, I'm sure they have the ability to do so.

If the contract is unfair - then they can go to court and get the lawyers involved. If the contract is fair - then it's up to EZY to find a way to resolve it.

Alternatively - it may be that EZY have decided that their corporate resources are best utilised in other parts of Europe - such as France and Italy and that Manchester can take a back seat for the time being.

It should be remembered that this contract was renegotiated, as a consequence the ninth based aircraft arrive at Liverpool in about one months time.

Easyjets Liverpool base has to be very profitable otherwise it would not continue to add to its base.

MUFC FAN

So you think that contracts signed can be torn-up when
you want them to be?

This basic idea of a 'paper' promise has worked for 100's
of years and now you think its a bad thing - it should be
thrown away!

Easyjet were pleased with the 'deal' they struck - all them
years ago - clearly.MAN was turning its nose up at them in
them days - and now that MAN is desperate for business
its convenient for you to ignore the contract.

I would not trust you in a business sense or for that matter
personal sense - too much like the footballers of today - fake.

MM

As we know, these deals are widespread across Europe...not just the Peel Airports group!

Furthermore, as has already been commented, generally both sides now involve lawyers to the nth degree to ensure they fully understand what they are getting themselves into - I cannot believe that this doesn't also include a consideration for any possible anti-competitive behaviour.

I would be extremely surprised if it wasn't, in fact, the case that the LPL-EZY deal has no wording whatsoever to the fact that they must limit their operations at MAN or elsewhere in the North-West as this would clearly be deemed anti-competitive. After all, the two biggest players at LPL, easyJet and Ryanair, now both have reasonably substantial operations also at Manchester....so I don't really see where any sort of anti-competitive hint comes into play here?!
It is very likely the case that any agreement includes waivers or discounts off standard fees and charges on the basis that the operating carriers achieve certain volumes or growth rates. In other words a positive spin on carrier growth at the airport in question rather than a negative against any other nearby airport facility.

What is perhaps more interesting, is that whilst Peel have been happy to fight the fight against BMIbaby regarding Teesside, one assumes that a similar deal to that discussed here will be in place with Ryanair. Given that Ryanair have cut back substantially on routes from all Peel Airports (whole aircraft out of LPL, and the historically year-round MME-DUB and DSA-DUB daily routes), Peel have kept very quiet about this.
One wonders whether a compromise has been reached with Ryanair or whether it is simply the case that Peel are 'over a barrel' in that they are afraid to contest the Ryanair culls on the basis that they cannot afford to lose more traffic.

UK Regional Airports
 

Lets face it, there are far to many airports for a small country, they all are simply unnecessary.

As for MAN, it has 3 terminals, 2 runways, linked very well by rail services and easy accessible by road network from all areas. Why on earth do we need BLK, LPL, LBA, HUY, DSA etc when MAN is under utilised.

Surely it would be far more profitable for airlines to operate a comprehensive network for a single base.

Airlines like EZY should have a network at MAN similar to what they have ay LGW.

parky - shame about the desire of people living in places like Liverpool and Leeds who know of the existence of an airport near their home and would like to fly from a place convenient to them

I have an idea.

Close ALL the regional airports and build a massive new one near London after all everything, roads and rail, radiate from there anyway.

Business is business. They are all (nearly) by seperate companies and all after business.

I wonder if easyJet consider LPL and MAN as a "joint" hub, with LPL focusing in on the short haul routes with MAN having the longer routes plus duplication of LPL routes where justified? It's going to be quite a sizeable fleet based in this "joint hub" 15 by 2010.

If you look at FR at LPL and MAN, it seems odd that most of the MAN routes don't operate to LPL - I wonder if it were be more worthwhile if they operated them out of LPL with a based aircraft (improbable given that they cut LPL's routes recently?!)

Regional airports
 

Swinging the lamp, in the old days airports were owned by Councils. It didnt matter if they made a profit or a loss, they were supported fianancialy due to local pride.

With the transfer to private companies the financial bottom line became important.

With the growth of so called lo cost carriers these smaller regional airports became more attractive. Instead of the odd flight to Jersey and pehaps a Palma charter the smaller regional airports took off. The increase in flights lead to bigger overheads as facilities and staff had to be increased.

This is most noticable at Bristol, Liverpool and Newcastle where it had used to be spot the movement but not so now.

With the boom eventualy comes the bust, lo cost carriers find the major airports more attractive at the expense of the smaller regional ones as they offer cheaper deals, this is happening now.

As flights retreat rom the small regional airports these airports now have the problem of biger overheads, dwindling flights and passenger numbers and have private owners who are not in a position or have no desire to subsidise them.

There are to many airports offering flights to the same places, competing for the same carriers and something will eventually give.

Ryanairs and Easyjets bases remind me of British Airways and British Air Services ( Cambrian/Northeast/Scottish/Channel Islands) with bases all over the place, this was in time reduced to the major airports and is now just London. I suspect the same will happen.

I think some of the smaller airfields have outpunched their weight in recent years and the problems are coming home to roost. Look at Coventry for an example.


Centre cities

WRT the Times article, I am sure that BMI operated into DVT, sorry DTV until last month, or am I missing something?

wiccan,

The point of the article is that MME mgt have lost a fortune on the legal case - this is in addition to the business losses due to falling pax figures.

CC, I think the probs at CVT were down to too many changes in management, and lack of local government support, rather than rapid expansion on its own.

In either case though, hevy legal fees have been involved in defending the airports' positions. CVT drove themselves into a corner, and have now given up on pax - this is a great shame, but following FR's takeover of a lot of former BACON slots at BHX, together with suitability questions over CVT's runway & 737-800s, I guess they ran out of options.

MME must be a natural base for FR, surely £1m would have been better allocated doing a deal with MOL to take a based a/c or two, and divert any possible growth from NCL.

Parky747, no surprise your location status is Manchester... Not everyone wants to fly MAN/ London?

The court case related to bmibaby who had 737's based at Teesside - it was the big, grown-up mainline bmi who pulled the Heathrow route recently.

Funnily enough, there is an arguement that similar mistakes contributed to the decline of the MME-LHR service - customers heard that bmibaby had pulled out and assumed this related to the mainline bmi service as well.

Refunds on Airline Cancelled Flights
 

We had some flights CWL to LEI booked with 'baby. The airline has since cancelled this route. Now that is pretty aweful behaviour as most bookings will have also booked some of parking, car hire and accomodation, and not all will be relevent to a new flight. I accept that most airlines will pull this stunt from time to time, and this is not a 'baby specific problem.

However, what has really annoyed me is that Baby decided to refund us £10 less than they charged us. I can see no reason for this. There was no mention of them attempting to do so on the refund e-mail, and we hadn't booked any non-flight related extras (although I would expect those to also be refunded as part of the same contract).

Its not particularly the amount, but it is a really shoddy way to try to make a few quid, and makes me worried about booking with 'baby again if they are so skint that they have to try such a trick for a tenner.

I had a similar experience with baby after they refunded me for cancelling BHX-FAO flights during the winter season just gone. The total refunded was less than the total I originally paid, by about £12, if I remember correctly.

When I checked the original booking material, the difference was the credit card fee. Perhaps this is the same with you?

I didn't bother to chase it (more fool me, perhaps) because the hassle of getting the money back was worth more than the £12. I suspect baby might have argued that the original fee was charged when I made the booking and as such, there was no obligation on them to refund it. That is speculation on my part, however.

I agree that it is shoddy behaviour. As an aside, I subsequently booked CVT-FAO and when TOM pulled out of CVT, they refunded the entire booking cost. It was professionally done with a full refund being credited to my card promptly.

So, would I book with baby again? No and finally secured flights with Monarch instead. I regard it as a bit of a cheap trick to withhold part of a supposed full refund with no explanation.

Similar tales can be found on the Skytrax website, where disgruntled pax complain about Baby pocketing fees for flights they (Baby) have cancelled.
I don't think they are doing themselves any favours here.

In its article dated 23.06.2009, the online edition of 'Travel Weekly' carries an article entitled "Lufthansa to take control of BMI." This article includes the statement that "[the deal] spells the end of low-cost subsidiary BMI Baby." The article concludes by reporting that Lufthansa has previously made clear that it has little interest in BMI Baby.

From the article I am unclear whether "Travel Weekly" is reporting a fact already confirmed in the Lufthansa-BMI deal, or expressing an opinion based on past statements from Lufthansa.

I would welcome any clarification from other contributors. Good luck to all those directly affected.

SHED.

Summer 2010
 

The summer schedule has been adjusted/further released and there
seems to be a need for up to 19 aircraft, an extra 2 from now.

BHX is certainly six based from June (Mo-Fr) on the current schedule

EMA requires six on a Friday and a very tight 5 based schedule on Sunday

MAN remains at four and Cardiff at three.

Routes not bookable yet BHX-NQY, EMA-PRG & CWL-GLA.

The BHX schedule has plenty of gaps between 10.30-16.30 and no
doubt it could be adjusted to go back to five aircraft if necessary and same with East Mids.

The Cardiff schedule is busy except for Wednesday and Manchester has
a few gaps which could be filled with new routes.

Any ideas if the aim is 19 aircraft and if so where are the two extra
ones coming from?

Pete

B733's or newer aircraft?

I hear that Valencia and Seville are on the board for next year, these could fill gaps such as the one at Birmingham...

Summer 2010
 

Just to clarify my previous post, I did only select two weeks in June
and I understand there are changes for July and August.

OliWW - those destinations would definitely fit in flight-time wise.

The other aspect of course is that a couple of the domestic routes
could be transferred to BMI Regional and that would take care of
the increase in units but is that likely to happen?

BHX-ABZ seems to have done okay since it changed from the 737 to
the 145. However most routes seem to be carrying 737 loads at the
moment but of course this is to be expected at this time of year.

Pete

Kidology.
 

Don't be fooled. The bmibaby summer 2010 "timetable" is simply a negotiating tool with LH. The more flights, the better. And the greater the penalties if they are not undertaken.

bmi baby are dead in the water, unless a saviour appears rapidly. Sorry folks.

And for just how long have people been saying that?

RH do you have anything to back up your assertion that WW are 'dead in the water', or is it just pure speculation/hope/guesswork?

And remember, with regards to LH: If they do sell the bmi group, this will include baby. We don't know what plans any potential buyer has for the airline. So lets just wait and see if baby are 'dead in the water'. For all I know they might be, but for all you know the next owners might just be able to give it the capital it needs to invest and expand... you never know.

bmi baby are dead in the water, unless a saviour appears rapidly. Sorry folks.

Roy Hodd

You might be right, you might be wrong, but like everyone else other than senior LH management you don't know, its that simple. Being anti bmi because of your previous with them is no foundation for saying the above.

2010 is a live program, which could change depending on what LH decide for the future for various parts of the group.

Time will tell

INKJET

It is not uncommon on this site for people to
hold grudges with past employers,just ask ASFKAP.

MM

ema baby flights 2010
 

Pete

Sun a/m is 6 flights 2 agp (1sch 1charter) mah, pmi, nce,alc.

regards
stuart

EMA/BHX
 

stuart

Thank you for the information, do you know which tour operator is
using the AGP and is there any sign of IT work from BHX?

It is very noticeable that BHX needs six aircraft in the week but
Saturday is crammed into 4, maybe 5 at most.

Pete

Thomas Cook and its sister companies will be using using baby flights for some of their passengers. They have done on a few flights this summer, at least to AGP.

What baby are doing is throwing absolutely everything they can think of at the market as early as possible and hoping there is enough business out there to make a case. Make no mistake this has been done to try and stave off LH and the bmi board. If it works it will have to be flown with 17 aircraft there will be no more unless forward bookings are phenominal (which they aren't). If it fails it will have to be flown with 13 aircraft (4 leases running out and we know what happened last time) or perhaps none !

The deal with TCX is clever. If baby have written the contract well they will have given TCX a massive payout if the obligations can not be met, hopefully more than the savings to LH by getting rid of 4 more aircraft ! However, if they bite the bullet and just decide to shut it down that all becomes irrelavent.

Baby sees itself less dead in the water more in a holding pattern running the QRH hoping to stay alive until they can work out how to !