FlyBE - 5
 

I've heard from a reliable source that That FlyBE have now bought over Loganair. Good for all involved as far as I can see. Logi needed a good revamp. More routes inter-Scotland and more external. How can anyone complain????

According to Logies web site things are as they ever were - supporting BA franchises, running normal services etc.

Of course this doesn't mean BEE haven't bought or are not interested in them, but without the continuation of the substantial subsidy available to passengers on some routes and a hefty reduction in ground charges by Highland and Islands Airports, I cannot see BEE being remotely interested in any of the Logie routes.
The routes operated by the BN2 and DHC6 are uneconomic/impossible with a Dash8Q400 and the other routes largely suspect without a hefty subsidy.

Mmmm... the Q400 is probably too big for Loganair and can't see Flybe adding an extra type (Saab 340) to their fleet. Heard that for short island hops the Q400 is not the best aircraft from an economic point of view. Plus if it can't take a decent load off 09/27 in Sumburgh then it will be as much use to Loganair as a chocolate fireguard but then again a 70 odd seater taking only 50 odd (for example) is still better than what exists at the moment.

*If* this is true then I hope the Logan crews have a better transition than the ex BACX crews.

Interesting...I heard the same rumour yesterday which had supposedly been sourced from a Flybe engineer. Apparently they are usually the first to hear when this sort of thing happens. IF this is true, would anything substantial change at logie? Perhaps we would be run as the Highlands and Islands arm of Flybe, feeding into the network at Gla/Edi.

I definitely don't believe this one !

FlyBE are stretched to breaking point as it is ... there are cancelling flights all over the route network.

Before the BACX purchase, they were looking forward to finally having 2 types (EMB195 and DHC8). MOL and others have proved that to be an efficient low cost carrier, you need as few aircraft types as possible (preferably 1).

FlyBE are now back up to 5 aircraft types, and if they were to go for Logan, they'd be increasing that yet further on unprofitable routes.

Tend to agree with ALTFLAPs, Flybe are still struggling with the BAcon fiasco.
But never say never in this game, some sort of truth is behind it somewhere!.
The fact that the BA franchise is up in March will have everybody talking, some sort of tie up would be good for both airlines...but a buyout could be more of a challenge for FlyBE.

As a certain grumpy pensioner once said:

"I DON'T belieeeeve it!!!"

Why would Flybe take on routes that are more "lifeline" than profitable?

Would think only the LSI routes to ABZ/GLA/EDI would be making money?

Can a DH8D land on a beach??? :rolleyes:

Q400 could operate out of Sumburgh without too many problems. It's only a fraction shorter than Galway, and we can lift 27.5 tons out of there no worries at all.

Question is why the hell would we want to? :}

Unfortunately the wind is rarely down 09/27 at LSI, and during the winter is often out of the 35 knot crosswind limit of the SAAB. Hence the constant use of 15/33. Now, It would be interesting to see what a Q400 could lift on those runways, especially when wet!

Cheers

757

Two very divergent business models.....

Loganair is actually very well known still and I'm sure would be OK standing alone again. I seem to recall a BA customer service email when I flew with Loganair recently saying that BA online check in was now available from LSI and KOI.

I would prefer a new deal with BA speaking as a passenger. Would be a massive change to become FlyBE as Logie are NEVER a low cost model.

FlyBe franchise?

With FlyBe inevitably getting bigger and bigger (even if they are screwing up everything they touch atm) and the brand becoming more recognised around Europe and further afield, is there any reason why they couldn't start franchising the name?

For Loganair to go from being supported by one of the country's biggest brands (BA) to their own brand would be very risky, and history doesn't show it to be a successful ploy. However moving to a less known, yet still much stronger brand (BE) would be less of a risk, and potentially a much better deal?

It would mean the business models wouldn't have to be changed either end. FlyBe would just gain wider network coverage and better connections to their existing services, and Loganair would benefit from a strong booking engine and marketing machine.

Loganair has been a brand in Scotland for more than 45 years. They hardly have any routes outside Scotland and on almost all routes no competition. The main purpose of being a BA franchise was probably to be able to offer through ticketing etc. for destinations outside Scotland. I do not see any sense in becoming a Flybe franchise which would cost Loganair a lot of money in return for, well, almost nothing.

flybe ARE suffering right now - this is true, but with Loganair flying under a 'franchise' agreement - similar to the current BA deal, where branding is displayed throughout but with Loganair titles by the front door etc...

Full UK-wide coverage for both airlines with subsidies from the Scottish Parliament for the Highlands and Islands, as well as any new routes being cosidered.

An outright purchase may well not be on the cards but a tie-up certainly would make some sense.

One thing IS certain, Willie Wonka wants nothing to do with LC and the sooner BA shakes them off the better (His view as stated in November last year when news of the regions being 'under review' initially broke not mine)

Flybe franchise might indeed have more merit than an outright purchase.

At the mo, struggling to think of routes for Loganair if it went it alone post-BA franchise.

It used to fly cross-border routes, but the landscape in short haul has changed now, with RYR, EZY, BEE et al.

Don't think it could survive on its own if it tried to make money out of the inter-Scottish routes solely, unless fares were (as they are in the main now) sky-high.

Is it still the case that some transat fares are lower than those on Scottish highland & island routes??

"Unfortunately the wind is rarely down 09/27 at LSI, and during the winter is often out of the 35 knot crosswind limit of the SAAB. Hence the constant use of 15/33. Now, It would be interesting to see what a Q400 could lift on those runways, especially when wet!"

15/33 similar in length to Guernsey, and entirely possible to lift at max weight (29t) with zero headwind component. A wet V1 unlikely to have a significantly adverse effect upon this weight. With a 15kt headwind, the Q400 can even perform a full flex, reduced power take off at 27t. :ok:

I think LC is an obvious takeover target for Flybe. They could charge a fortune (as LC does) for Benny, SYY, Islay, KOI, Scumburgh, Tiree etc. The LC network would dovetail nicely with their existing GLA/EDI services.

Barra might be tricky tho-and what about the inter-island stuff with the Islanders?

I bet Uncle Wullys' £130m+ is burning a hole in their pocket tho, and what Flybe want and need more than anything is to expaaaaaaaaaand!

I'd say 65/35 in favour.;)

Loganair/BA franchise agreement
 

Loganair have more to gain from withdrawing from the franchise agreement than BA have from getting rid of them.

BA have made millions from Loganair and I would think it is no longer in LC's interest to remain a BA franchise partner. I can't see however, how it would benefit them by going it alone. To become a franchise partner for another airline would be a better option, it would save the cost of setting up their own ticketing and reservations department and the only costs involved would be the repainting of their aircraft and some new uniforms. The lead airline would get paid a pile of cash (although perhaps not as much as BA got) for doing very little.

I can't see a Flybe takeover being on the cards given the problems they are having, a franchise agreement with Loganair would make more sense.

Interesting. A low cost airline franchising with a high cost subsidised niche carrier? I'd be surprised....
And can we all stop assuming Loganair's routes lose money. They seem to be making good enough profits and the communities they serve would NOT be served without the subsidy for obvious reasons. A sound business model with more SF340s on the way. And since the ATP was too big for them, why would the DHC8-400Q be any better?

The BA franchise is based on feeder traffic from London through to Scotland and vice versa. Surely the low cost model is a point to point non feeder one?
Also, recently seen that the BA online check in model is being extended to Loganair, not as sure as I once was that BA won't want to renew.

It seems some people have never had the benefit of flying into Sumburgh. Runway 15/33 is not field length limiting but is obstacle limiting because of terrain on the climb out at both ends, it is therefore doubtful if Q400 could lift anything like max weight off this runway.

Doubt if Loganair would be sold to Flybe, more likely that the currently profitable Loganair might enter some sort of codeshare agreement when the BA franchise disappears sometimeover the next few months. It is well known that BA/WW has no appetite to continue in Scotland and it is only political pressure that is keeping the flag flying north of the border. Could this be why BA Cityflyer has made a sudden appearance from nowhere? As a regular LHR commuter I am well aware of which services are the first to be cancelled when there are any upsets, Ba's commitment to the Shuttle services is well demonstrated on those occasions. Strong rumour they are only being kept as they ensure the slots at LHR until opening of T5. Could it be repeat of the Highland Division disappearance when a cheaper operator isused to dupe the public into thinking that it is still flying with the main airline?

There is no doubt the landscape is changing, all will be revealed in the very near future I suspect.:oh:

What is the Q400's crosswind limit?

Waaf BA Cityflyer havent come out of nowhere, they have always been there, just called various other names thats all. ie BA Connect or try BA Citiexpress or you can go back further to when there was Brymon,Bral and Bar!!!!!!! I can see BA ****tyflyer not having a base in EDI though in the future.

LOganair/Flybe
 

Recent rumour is that Scott Grier has bought the name of Scottish Airways
from British Airways. Strong rumour also about them becoming a Franchise
of Flybe..... Mr Grier has been seen at EXT HQ a few times.

Scottish Airways?! :eek:

They'll be bringing back the Viscount next...:ok:

BA's whole business model depends on feeding long haul at Heathrow. So Hell would freeze over before the Anglo Scottish Shuttle got binned. BA is a London focused company - the reason for the relaunch of LCY-GLA

DB6 it's 32kts

I'll try and get a word with my sister, who is involved with the Islay Tourist Board (good excuse for distillery visits!!!) and see if there are any rumours circulating there...

Loganair flybe merger
 

I remember when I worked for BA on the ground in EDI Loganair's services were very prown to weather delays especially in the winter and with flybe record for flight opertations after the BA connect merger. Will Flybe and Loganair be rebranded Flymaybe and flynever

Flymaybe. Forgive me while my sides are splitting, its only the 23rd time I've heard that since 2004.....

Flymaybe
 

Cider - but its getting a lot more frequent on this forum and in the press as even the Telegraph mentioned it the other day
Tried flying out of MAN recently. Even the flight to their home base at EXE is getting the CANX treatment now and on MAN-GLA, BMI must be rubbing their hands with glee at the very frequent CANX by FLYMAYBE since they took over the route. Have you seen the post about the punctuality of BMI.

Lets be honest mate, Flybe's punctuality is appauling throughout the network with cancellations and delays daily.

They cannot be trusted to get you there on time if at all.

Punctuality 11/09 roughly between 17:30ish to 1900 ish
 

Nothing on the t.v so I scanned the Ceefax arrivals......MAN proved difficult as it hadn't been updated since 1530 then all of sudden it was live.

RED indicates an early arrival
BLUE indicates on time
GREEN within 30 minutes of STA
INDIGO within 1 hour of STA
PURPLE shows a current delay no ETA

MANCHESTER
1615 BE7275 GLASGOW EXPECTED 1615
1635 BE7227 EDINBURGH EXPECTED 1615
(JUMPS TO LIVE)
1755 BE240 JERSEY LANDED 1750
1810 BE7229 EDINBURGH LANDED 1750
1815 BE7023 BELFAST CITY LANDED 1810
1830 BE7266 FRANKFURT LANDED 1825

(WW PMI FLIGHT 3 HOUR 10 MINUTE DELAY - NO COMPLAINTS ON HERE)

GLASGOW
1745 BE7278 MANCHESTER LANDED 1734
1815 BE7092 BIRMINGHAM LANDED 1809

EDINBURGH
1800 BE7249 SOUTHAMPTON EXPECTED 1840
1805 BE7061 BIRMINGHAM LANDED 1757
1810 BE7228 MANCHESTER LANDED 1754

(EZY LTN FLIGHT CANX AND GSM AGP 5 HOUR DELAY)

DONCASTER DSA
1805 BE265 BELFAST CITY LANDED 1800

SOUTHAMPTON
1725 BE1726 HANOVER LANDED 1702
1730 BE174 LEEDS B/FORD LANDED 1754
1805 BE7370 MANCHESTER LANDED 1757
1810 BE1616 NICE LANDED 1812 (2 MINUTES LATE)
1815 BE887 GLASGOW EXPECTED 1821
1815 BE146 NEWCASTLE LANDED 1750

BIRMINGHAM
1755 BE191 ISLE OF MAN LANDED 1743
1805 BE7091 GLASGOW LANDED 1813
1810 BE1664 DUBROVNIK LANDED 1808

(WW GLA AND EDI FLIGHTS BOTH CANX)

LONDON GATWICK
1855 BE7326 INVERNESS EXPECTED 1845
1855 BE950 JERSEY EXPECTED 1850
1905 BE918 GUERNSEY EXPECTED 1856
1910 BE7337 ISLE OF MAN EXPECTED 1900

NORWICH
1830 BE1352 PARIS CDG LANDED 1754

EXETER
1755 BE1534 AMSTERDAM LANDED 1734
1835 BE376 MANCHESTER LANDED 1825
1850 BE312 JERSEY / GCI LANDED 1834

CARDIFF
1935 BE1436 PARIS CDG EXPECTED 1930

BELFAST CITY
1750 BE970 LONDON GATWICK LANDED 1753 (3 MIN LATE)
1805 BE130 GLASGOW LANDED 1750
1825 BE430 NEWCASTLE LANDED 1807
1825 BE7024 MANCHESTER LANDED 1810
1935 BE266 DONCASTER DSA EXPECTED 1925
1945 BE688 EDINBURGH EXPECTED 1945


This took an awful long time so won't be making a habit of it!

Its great you show loyalty to your company but you have to admit thier record is not great. I too used to work to thier punctuality and often i would end up working 2 or 3 hours extra until I could go home!
Thier customer service is rubbish too! They frequently would divert aircraft into EXT and not tell pax until mid flight-let alone us! You try getting coaches at midnight when the school run is only a few hours away! Everytime I would ask for someone from BE to come and greet these passengers, I was told there was no way!
FR are CHEAP and you expect that-BE aren't cheap and hide under the umbrella of 'Low Cost' to dodge thier reponsibilites to customers!

I (sadly) do not think they will go under. They are too ruthless (look at me paying a credit to them!) I have not worked in EXT for a while now but I am guessing you still do? In which case I would invite you to make yourself known to the handling agents there and tell them what you have said here-you'd be a braver man than I! For the money they are on, and the sh!t BE (and sometimes others) throw at them they do an amazing job!
I am also guessing you are in Maintrol or Engineering.....comfortable in that hangar isn't it? The real side of the airport is about 500 metres down the road and I would suggest you visit the frontline when an aircraft goes tech or a divert is inbound.
You probably realise I dislike BE. I have no experience of flying with them other than a pleasent trip on DH-3's to JER about 8 years ago. HOWEVER I have worked with scores of airlines and they would certainly be my 'top of the flops'! There are more people slagging them off here than being positive! What does that say?
Whoopee-doo if they have had a good record for 2 months. Come back next year and tell us the same and people may start giving them some credit.

IIRC FlyBe used to post punctuality statitistics on their web site. Gone now. Wonder why.

From an IoM perspective they're either on time, or they're not. Badly not. And because they're not quite often, they are getting a bad reputation. BACon merger cannot be blamed forever. New aircraft operated by locally based crews due soon.

For goodness sake please get it right from then on.

Well said again ADC!! I have flown with Flybe on countless occasions from BHX to both domestic and European destinations and like any other airline have experienced delays, diversions and mediocre service - its part and parcel of the airline industry. Unfortunately there has been a decline in standards ex-BHX since the BACON takeover. There are often long queues at check-in (and why no self-service check-in?!!!!). You can check-in online but the times I have there has been no-one manning the Q Buster desk and I have to join the line. Some employees now have dollops of attitude and there is a certain amount of advantage being taken of pax on routes from BHX where they have a monopoly (over £350 next week to fly to Stuutgart, now that definately ain't low fares!!!). I have also found that info on the ground is non-existant, when delays do occur they are rarely announced, the onus is very much on the paying pax to find out whats going on:* But overall no worse than other airlines travelled on in the past 12 months!

Ahhh....When you mean 'pointless' views, you mean 'those not shared by myself'. Please tell me which remarks were pointless and untrue?
Does it matter that i am not a regular Flybe flyer? I have been in the industry long enough to know who are reliable who who aren't. You want to talk to people who dealt with them on a daily basis on the ground? I'm one of them! So please don't try to make me out to not know what i am talking about-from what I gather I have physically dealt with these aircraft alot more than you have. You're clearly not a pilot, your not cabin crew, your not maintrol, your not engineering. You don't seem to work airside....so i'm not sure at what capacity you think you have to make EVERYONE elses critical comments void!?

I would be interested to know if the previously mentioned stats takes accountof thr number of cancellations. A flight cannot be late if it has been cancelled. Anybody in the know will confirm that BEE have had more than their fare share of cancellations. In taking over Bacon BEE bit off more than they could chew. It hasn't got noticeably better recently. As for flt ops......don't get me started:mad:

Worst aspect is that if we do arrive early we have been told to expect delays in disembarking pax and baggage removal, as the contracts are all based around ontime performance! Same presumably applies if late - even more delays. It is very frustrating to pull on stand 10 mins early and then wait 10 mins + to disembark pax and offload bags - yet it happens frequently (more and more frequently as post above in multi colours confirms!). So whilst performance is improving (I have seen that) getting there early makes it feel worse for our customers as they then wait an eternity to leave the aircraft and get their bags. Bring back BACON - at least they were flexible!

Dash 8-Q400 landing gear collapses
 

SAS had a second landing gear collapse last night at Vilnius and has now decided to ground the entire fleet of the type.

Bombardier has requested that all Dash 8-Q400s with 10,000 or more cycles be grounded, pending checks.

Roughtly how many of BE's Dash 8s would be near this level?
G-JEDI was delivered in Oct 2001, so assuming a utilisation rate of 2,000h* per year (which is pretty conservative), it should have exceeded this, same with other earlier aircraft, such as 'JEDJ,K,L?

Presumably the CAA will be in touch with with Flybe and Bombardier about this over the next few days.

(Cycles would probably be in excess of hours, because of relatively short sector lengths, so this could potentially effect a considerably larger number of BE acft).

Flycatcher:

That explains why the handling service at LGW goes seriously pear shaped when a delay creeps in.... Contracts based on on-time performance are fine provided the aircraft is on time. Surely whoever negotiated on behalf of FlyBe considered the possibility of delays? Indeed quickly turning round a delayed service gives the crew a chance to catch up on the schedule. Delaying it further just adds to cost.

Wonder how much FlyBe have paid to IoM Airport for extensions to accomodate late LGW flights? See this mornings 0650 is delayed, and has not yet left.....but that may be due to the SAS issue mentioned above.