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FlyBE - 5

Old 29th Aug 2007, 23:10
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Question FlyBE - 5

I've heard from a reliable source that That FlyBE have now bought over Loganair. Good for all involved as far as I can see. Logi needed a good revamp. More routes inter-Scotland and more external. How can anyone complain????
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 00:34
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According to Logies web site things are as they ever were - supporting BA franchises, running normal services etc.

Of course this doesn't mean BEE haven't bought or are not interested in them, but without the continuation of the substantial subsidy available to passengers on some routes and a hefty reduction in ground charges by Highland and Islands Airports, I cannot see BEE being remotely interested in any of the Logie routes.
The routes operated by the BN2 and DHC6 are uneconomic/impossible with a Dash8Q400 and the other routes largely suspect without a hefty subsidy.
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 00:55
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Mmmm... the Q400 is probably too big for Loganair and can't see Flybe adding an extra type (Saab 340) to their fleet. Heard that for short island hops the Q400 is not the best aircraft from an economic point of view. Plus if it can't take a decent load off 09/27 in Sumburgh then it will be as much use to Loganair as a chocolate fireguard but then again a 70 odd seater taking only 50 odd (for example) is still better than what exists at the moment.

*If* this is true then I hope the Logan crews have a better transition than the ex BACX crews.
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 07:33
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Interesting...I heard the same rumour yesterday which had supposedly been sourced from a Flybe engineer. Apparently they are usually the first to hear when this sort of thing happens. IF this is true, would anything substantial change at logie? Perhaps we would be run as the Highlands and Islands arm of Flybe, feeding into the network at Gla/Edi.
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 07:50
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I definitely don't believe this one !

FlyBE are stretched to breaking point as it is ... there are cancelling flights all over the route network.

Before the BACX purchase, they were looking forward to finally having 2 types (EMB195 and DHC8). MOL and others have proved that to be an efficient low cost carrier, you need as few aircraft types as possible (preferably 1).

FlyBE are now back up to 5 aircraft types, and if they were to go for Logan, they'd be increasing that yet further on unprofitable routes.
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 08:18
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Tend to agree with ALTFLAPs, Flybe are still struggling with the BAcon fiasco.
But never say never in this game, some sort of truth is behind it somewhere!.
The fact that the BA franchise is up in March will have everybody talking, some sort of tie up would be good for both airlines...but a buyout could be more of a challenge for FlyBE.
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 08:57
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As a certain grumpy pensioner once said:

"I DON'T belieeeeve it!!!"

Why would Flybe take on routes that are more "lifeline" than profitable?

Would think only the LSI routes to ABZ/GLA/EDI would be making money?

Can a DH8D land on a beach???
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 09:20
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Q400 could operate out of Sumburgh without too many problems. It's only a fraction shorter than Galway, and we can lift 27.5 tons out of there no worries at all.

Question is why the hell would we want to?
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 10:15
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Unfortunately the wind is rarely down 09/27 at LSI, and during the winter is often out of the 35 knot crosswind limit of the SAAB. Hence the constant use of 15/33. Now, It would be interesting to see what a Q400 could lift on those runways, especially when wet!



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Old 30th Aug 2007, 12:10
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Two very divergent business models.....

Loganair is actually very well known still and I'm sure would be OK standing alone again. I seem to recall a BA customer service email when I flew with Loganair recently saying that BA online check in was now available from LSI and KOI.

I would prefer a new deal with BA speaking as a passenger. Would be a massive change to become FlyBE as Logie are NEVER a low cost model.

Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 30th Aug 2007 at 12:55.
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 12:18
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FlyBe franchise?

With FlyBe inevitably getting bigger and bigger (even if they are screwing up everything they touch atm) and the brand becoming more recognised around Europe and further afield, is there any reason why they couldn't start franchising the name?

For Loganair to go from being supported by one of the country's biggest brands (BA) to their own brand would be very risky, and history doesn't show it to be a successful ploy. However moving to a less known, yet still much stronger brand (BE) would be less of a risk, and potentially a much better deal?

It would mean the business models wouldn't have to be changed either end. FlyBe would just gain wider network coverage and better connections to their existing services, and Loganair would benefit from a strong booking engine and marketing machine.
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 12:29
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Loganair has been a brand in Scotland for more than 45 years. They hardly have any routes outside Scotland and on almost all routes no competition. The main purpose of being a BA franchise was probably to be able to offer through ticketing etc. for destinations outside Scotland. I do not see any sense in becoming a Flybe franchise which would cost Loganair a lot of money in return for, well, almost nothing.
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 19:59
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flybe ARE suffering right now - this is true, but with Loganair flying under a 'franchise' agreement - similar to the current BA deal, where branding is displayed throughout but with Loganair titles by the front door etc...

Full UK-wide coverage for both airlines with subsidies from the Scottish Parliament for the Highlands and Islands, as well as any new routes being cosidered.

An outright purchase may well not be on the cards but a tie-up certainly would make some sense.

One thing IS certain, Willie Wonka wants nothing to do with LC and the sooner BA shakes them off the better (His view as stated in November last year when news of the regions being 'under review' initially broke not mine)
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 20:07
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Flybe franchise might indeed have more merit than an outright purchase.

At the mo, struggling to think of routes for Loganair if it went it alone post-BA franchise.

It used to fly cross-border routes, but the landscape in short haul has changed now, with RYR, EZY, BEE et al.

Don't think it could survive on its own if it tried to make money out of the inter-Scottish routes solely, unless fares were (as they are in the main now) sky-high.

Is it still the case that some transat fares are lower than those on Scottish highland & island routes??
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 20:20
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"Unfortunately the wind is rarely down 09/27 at LSI, and during the winter is often out of the 35 knot crosswind limit of the SAAB. Hence the constant use of 15/33. Now, It would be interesting to see what a Q400 could lift on those runways, especially when wet!"

15/33 similar in length to Guernsey, and entirely possible to lift at max weight (29t) with zero headwind component. A wet V1 unlikely to have a significantly adverse effect upon this weight. With a 15kt headwind, the Q400 can even perform a full flex, reduced power take off at 27t.
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 22:55
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I think LC is an obvious takeover target for Flybe. They could charge a fortune (as LC does) for Benny, SYY, Islay, KOI, Scumburgh, Tiree etc. The LC network would dovetail nicely with their existing GLA/EDI services.

Barra might be tricky tho-and what about the inter-island stuff with the Islanders?

I bet Uncle Wullys' 130m+ is burning a hole in their pocket tho, and what Flybe want and need more than anything is to expaaaaaaaaaand!

I'd say 65/35 in favour.
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Old 30th Aug 2007, 23:42
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Loganair/BA franchise agreement

Loganair have more to gain from withdrawing from the franchise agreement than BA have from getting rid of them.

BA have made millions from Loganair and I would think it is no longer in LC's interest to remain a BA franchise partner. I can't see however, how it would benefit them by going it alone. To become a franchise partner for another airline would be a better option, it would save the cost of setting up their own ticketing and reservations department and the only costs involved would be the repainting of their aircraft and some new uniforms. The lead airline would get paid a pile of cash (although perhaps not as much as BA got) for doing very little.

I can't see a Flybe takeover being on the cards given the problems they are having, a franchise agreement with Loganair would make more sense.
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Old 31st Aug 2007, 14:00
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Interesting. A low cost airline franchising with a high cost subsidised niche carrier? I'd be surprised....
And can we all stop assuming Loganair's routes lose money. They seem to be making good enough profits and the communities they serve would NOT be served without the subsidy for obvious reasons. A sound business model with more SF340s on the way. And since the ATP was too big for them, why would the DHC8-400Q be any better?

The BA franchise is based on feeder traffic from London through to Scotland and vice versa. Surely the low cost model is a point to point non feeder one?
Also, recently seen that the BA online check in model is being extended to Loganair, not as sure as I once was that BA won't want to renew.
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Old 2nd Sep 2007, 10:33
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It seems some people have never had the benefit of flying into Sumburgh. Runway 15/33 is not field length limiting but is obstacle limiting because of terrain on the climb out at both ends, it is therefore doubtful if Q400 could lift anything like max weight off this runway.

Doubt if Loganair would be sold to Flybe, more likely that the currently profitable Loganair might enter some sort of codeshare agreement when the BA franchise disappears sometimeover the next few months. It is well known that BA/WW has no appetite to continue in Scotland and it is only political pressure that is keeping the flag flying north of the border. Could this be why BA Cityflyer has made a sudden appearance from nowhere? As a regular LHR commuter I am well aware of which services are the first to be cancelled when there are any upsets, Ba's commitment to the Shuttle services is well demonstrated on those occasions. Strong rumour they are only being kept as they ensure the slots at LHR until opening of T5. Could it be repeat of the Highland Division disappearance when a cheaper operator isused to dupe the public into thinking that it is still flying with the main airline?

There is no doubt the landscape is changing, all will be revealed in the very near future I suspect.
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Old 2nd Sep 2007, 18:41
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What is the Q400's crosswind limit?
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