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WHBM 4th Jul 2008 15:04

I'm putting this on the BA thread even though you may feel initially it is not a BA issue.

Mrs WHBM :) just went London City - Munich - St Petersburg, Russia, on Lufthansa. There was a 30 minute connection at MUC which LH were happy to book but I raised my eyebrows at it. Arriving there 8 minutes late, so 22 minutes to go, there was a ground agent ready and waiting at the aircraft door for this one passenger, with a van, to transfer directly to the departure gate. Connection made.

Now having done many a connection at Heathrow over the years, this is a service that BA would never even think of offering. Goodness, you would actually be turned away before you start at T5 if you turned up at security 30 minutes before departure. Airside transfer vehicle for one economy class pax to make a tight connection ? "You're 'avin' a larf, mate !"

By the way, why were we on LH in the first place ? Return fare on LH £230. Fare today on BA direct to St Petersburg when we went to book, over £800. Of course BA justify their higher fares on the grounds they provide a "better service". Hah !

We've both been regulars on BA to St Petersburg over many years. Possiby time for a change.

heli_port 5th Jul 2008 09:39

BA price rises leave a quarter of seats empty
 

In a deeply pessimistic assessment of the American airline industry, Moody's, the credit ratings agency, said yesterday that the business models of many carriers were “unsustainable”. The agency's analysts said that US airlines were particularly vulnerable to high oil prices and even large carriers could be forced into bankruptcy.
The record high price of oil has increased operating costs for airlines around the world and many are struggling to survive.
The American carriers collectively lost about $2 billion (£1billion) in the first quarter of this year and they are reducing capacity to cut their losses. Thousands of jobs are expected to go when at least 10 per cent of scheduled flights are cancelled later this year.
European airlines are also suffering from high fuel costs with British Airways giving warning that its profits could be wiped out this year and Ryanair saying that it was likely only to break even or may possibly lose money this year.

However, the US carriers are suffering most as they have fleets of very old aircraft. These use about 40 per cent more fuel than the latest generation of planes and therefore cost substantially more to fly.
Moody's said: “In the current environment, with many airlines seeing a more than 30 per cent year-on-year increase in their fuel costs, nearly 50 per cent of an average ticket is consumed by fuel, leaving inadequate coverage of other key costs such as labour, equipment rentals, debt service and overheads. Without an ability to cover costs and earn an adequate return, the business model for most airlines cannot be sustained under current fuel price conditions.”
Airlines in the US are attempting to raise extra revenue by introducing new fees, such as a $15 charge for checking a first piece of baggage and another $30 for checking the second.
Carriers are also charging for water and coffee onboard and have introduced fuel surcharges to ticket prices to cover the higher cost of oil.
BA has also responded to rising fuel prices by introducing the surcharges, which have increased from £70 for a long-haul return flight at the start of last year to £218. This is now more than the basic flight for a typical London to New York fare.
Moody's said: “We do not believe it will be possible for airlines to cost-cut or capacity-reduce their way back to profitability. Long-term industry viability will depend upon a pricing environment in which airlines can adequately recover the significant costs of fuel, labour and capital investment.”
However, airlines may struggle to continue increasing fares in the face of slowing economies in the US and UK. The worsening economic situation on both sides of the Atlantic means that passengers have less money to spend on travel, so higher fares may force them to stay at home.
BA said this week that increased charges and the slowing economy had contributed to 87,000 fewer passengers travelling with it last month. The airline's load factor - the measure of how many people each aircraft carries - fell 3.8 percentage points to 76.7 per cent, meaning that nearly one in every four seats was empty.
By comparison, Ryanair's load factor in June was 84 per cent, down 1 percentage point on the same period last year.
Load factors are a good measure of how well an airline is performing as empty seats produce no revenue but cost money to transport from one side of the world to the other. An analysis by The Times of BA's load factors in recent years shows that the situation for the British flag carrier has worsened markedly in the past few months.
The onset of summer has led to higher load factors than earlier this year, as is normal for the airline industry, but the increases in BA's passenger numbers has been at a much lower rate than in 2007 and 2006.
The weaker growth in passenger numbers coincides with a dramatic jump in BA's fuel surcharge this year. The airline has increased its charge three times since February from £128 for a long-haul return to £218.
Doug McVitie, managing director of Arran Aerospace, an aviation consultancy, said: “Demand for air travel falls off in direct response to rises in fares so now is not the time to be soaking the customer with these surcharges. There is a tipping point at which airlines have to absorb more of the increased costs, no matter what that does to their profit margins.”
Moody's says business models of many airlines 'are unsustainable' - Times Online

heli_port 5th Jul 2008 09:41

BA price rises leave a quarter of seats empty
 

British Airways flights are now taking off with almost a quarter of their seats empty after higher airfares and a slowing economy led to 87,000 fewer passengers using the airline last month.
The airline said it carried 2.9 per cent fewer passengers than the same month last year with traffic to Africa, the Middle East and the United States the weakest.
The load factor on BA’s aircraft, a measure of how full each plane is when it flies, fell 3.8 per cent to 76.7 per cent. This means nearly one in every four seats is now empty on BA flights.
The traffic figures are disappointing as June typically signals the beginning of the summer holiday season and an increase in the number of passengers travelling.
BA blamed the fall on “significant” increases in ticket prices due to the record high price of oil and a tough consumer environment in the UK.
The high cost of fuel is troubling all carriers and American Airlines gave warning yesterday that it could cut 7,000 jobs and ground yet more aircraft. It expects to take a one-off charge of $1.3 billion to cover the cost of redundancies.
In an attempt to reduce costs further BA, AA and Iberia, the Spanish flag carrier, are expected to try to merge their operations later this month.
The Times reported yesterday that the three airlines were close to seeking approval from competition regulators to press ahead with the deal.
A BA spokeswoman said yesterday: “BA has been in talks with American Airlines and Iberia for some time, but no decisions have been reached.”
The proposed merger has been attacked by rivals, including Virgin Atlantic, who claim it will limit competition.
A Virgin spokesman said: “We would oppose this attempt to create an anticompetitive alliance. It would form a dominant mega-power on trans-Atlantic air routes from two of the largest EU members, forcing up ticket prices for passengers and restricting choice.”
BA price rises leave a quarter of seats empty - Times Online

Megaton 5th Jul 2008 10:27

Look on the bright side - it's good for staff travel!

StbdD 5th Jul 2008 10:53

Gee, these journalists must be the same bright spots who predicted oil over $150 this year and the failure of the baseless credit industry. Sign me up to follow these idiots who are always months/years after the fact and still manage to get it wrong.

Dairyground 6th Jul 2008 01:04

Ba Jfk-man
 
I don't know how much it costs BA to get a 767 from MAN to JFK and back, but this time last year I was charged less to travel JFK-LHR-MAN than it would have been to go JFK-MAN direct. Oddly enough, westbound, the direct flight was the cheaper (or less expensive).

Perhaps a half-hearted attempt to justify closing the route by generating reduced passenger demand?

gsky 6th Jul 2008 06:43

Man-jfk
 
Dairyground:

Correct!

I tried several times last year to check best deal MAN-JFK and was frequently offered a routing via LHR.
I think they fill the LHR flights first.

This year I tried to use some air miles to get to JFK.
The web site always seems to try and route you thru LHR. again!!
However when I telephoned the BA Exec club and requested MAN-JFK direct availability, I got it!

I think BA did the same thing with the old MAN-LAX route
They dont really want to keep the route open so they direct traffic, especially premium, which makes the money, via LHR
then say its not cost effective.

Well of course it is'nt, they make sure that this is the case.
BA want all traffic via their hub , LHR. Fact..

Channex101 7th Jul 2008 01:35

i think you will find a lot of airline offer cheaper routes if you have a stop off along the way. i travel to the states about 6 times a year and i often get good deals with KLM, LH, SAS and AF all from UK airports via the airlines hub and then onto long haul than fly direct from UK (whether it be a regional airport with a departure such as EWR with CO or with a legacy carrier like BA/UA/AA via somewhere like ORD/JFK or IAD)

wierd how it works sometimes

DAVYDAY 7th Jul 2008 06:37

For How Long
 
Ham Phisted
Look on the bright side - it's good for staff travel

Its great to get seats for the family but how long will this last if we dont get bums on seats?

2 years ago it was easier to just book a deal on the net.in peak.
Now were getting seats to any destination...

Is this the sign of the times.have to go off to LHR
Then 4 off . I think I will try some staff travel..

heli_port 15th Jul 2008 19:48

BA warns the oil price will wipe out profits
 

Martin Broughton, the chairman of British Airways, admitted today that profits are likely to be wiped out this year as soaring fuel costs and the economic downturn pile the pressure on the UK's flagship airline.
Mr Broughton told shareholders at BA's annual meeting that it would be a "considerable achievement" if BA broke even for the current financial year.
The airline's chairman said that, with the oil price surging above $140 a barrel amid fears of a global recession, BA and its peers are "up to our necks in the biggest crisis the aviation industry has ever known".
He spelled out to investors that, with oil at $85 a barrel - a price last reached in February - BA would be on course for handsome profits.
BA warns the oil price will wipe out profits - Times Online

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/animated/anim_03.gif

rubik101 15th Jul 2008 21:58

Couldn't this have been tagged on to the WW rough ride thread? It's just more of the same, after all.
AGM today and WW says fares to go up and capacity to go down. So no news there then.

Shark Slayer 15th Jul 2008 22:52

...........er, what effect did the mismanagement of terminal 5 have on profits.

For that matter, the lack of management people skills leading to perhaps morale being at an all time low amongst front line staff.

Easy to just blame it on the price of oil - I guess BA's competitors are getting all the cheap oil then!

Re-Heat 15th Jul 2008 23:32

What is your point? Mismanagement and one-off T5 transitions still produced a 10% operating profit (way above competitors). With all competitors struggling as well, it is quite clearly the oil price that has delivered this blow to the profits.

Mismanagement might help to raise the cost base above what it should be, but nowhere near what all airlines are equally facing with current oil prices.

Human Factor 15th Jul 2008 23:33

... not forgetting a £350 million phone bill.:ugh:

silverstreak 18th Jul 2008 19:24

Winter UK Domestic timetables...
 
Heard that BA are going to cut domestic routes this winter...

GLA already has lost the first am Mon-Fri LHR service. EDI and ABZ are bracing themselves. NCL and MAN too...

Been advised by a BA source that EDI will also have just one am departure before 0830hrs instead of 2 as of summer 09 schedule.

GoEDI 18th Jul 2008 19:35

EDI-LCY going from 10 to 9 daily, rumoured to be losing a LGW frequency too.

ara01jbb 18th Jul 2008 20:19

Nigel Turner (BD) was on BBC R4's "Today" last week. Not route cuts this winter, but frequencies will be reduced, so LHR routes and busier regional routes in and out of MAN look likely.

CHINOOKER 18th Jul 2008 20:23

BA Winter shedule cutbacks
 
News has been filtering out today from the aircraft maintenance planning group of the likely network cutbacks from winter 08

LHR Shorthaul operation.............5% reduction in services

LHR Longhaul operation..............6% reduction in services

LGW Shorthaul operation......15-20% reduction in services

LGW Longhaul operation..............No significant reduction

With regard to LHR Longhaul operation it now seems between 4 and 6 747-400s will be put into long term storage in the desert,whilst a further 8 400s will be base parked on a weekly rotating basis.....Most likely scenario for this is...a/c will fly friday to monday,(busiest time for l/h network apparently),and then be parked up for rest of week!

Operation plan to fly 777s more intently over winter period.....With regard to ZZA-ZZC it seems that these a/c will be retired/sold during 2009.

Announcement on new fleet orders,(777-300s) now due first week in August

Carnage Matey! 18th Jul 2008 20:28

Interesting news, particularly so as Walsh said at the AGM that no aircraft would be parked and there are significant recruitment plans for 744 pilots as of about two days ago. If they are going to park 10% of the fleet you'd think somebody would have told Flight Ops.:confused:

Hotel Mode 18th Jul 2008 20:37

Currently flying with a recruiter, they are way behind on 744 recruitment and cant fill the slots quick enough. Grounding 4-6 and parking 8 in the week is much more than a 6% cut. Its 25% of the 747 fleet.

And how much more intensely can they fly the 777s they are already 1 short as it is.

Poof in Boots 18th Jul 2008 20:39

This is in line with what we were expecting. With the extra 777's coming next year there isn't much of a cut to the L/H programme.

It is cheaper to rotate the 744's than park them in the desert. By doing this BA must be expecting an upturn in fortunes next year.

The 744 is now officially a dying fleet. In ten years time BA L\H will be all twin jets with the exception of the A380's..... if we still take them.

Yes Hotel. It is hard to see how the 777's can be flown more "intently" (sic) when we are already one down.

CHINOOKER 18th Jul 2008 20:53

With regard the 400s that will be parked in the desert....most of these a/c are due heavy maint checks,over the coming winter period!......I'm not sure of the cost of each check but it must around £500,000 per a/c,so economically it makes sense if eventually this fleet is going to be replaced.

Carnage Matey! 18th Jul 2008 20:54

A dying fleet? Still the biggest in the company, even with the mooted reductions. In 10 years time the 777 will be around 25 years old so they'll be on their way out too! The problems with Operations' plans is that they tend to meet reality with something of a crunch. When somebody points out we don't have enough pilots to sweat the 777s more they'll have to go back to the drawing board and work with what they have rather than what they'd like.

Pontius 19th Jul 2008 07:45


there are significant recruitment plans for 744 pilots as of about two days ago. If they are going to park 10% of the fleet you'd think somebody would have told Flight Ops
I believe most of the recruitment onto the 744 is to make up for headcount reduction due to the part-timers getting their contracts (at last). Of course, if they do shrink the fleet then fewer pilots will be required but whoever heard of Flight Ops being kept in the loop with changes :rolleyes:

anotherthing 19th Jul 2008 09:34

So, similar headline to the one about Ryanair, but different responses because it's BA... pathetic really... we should be grieving the downturn in the industry that is happening (and will continue to happen if fuel remains costly), not gloat at individual airlines.

HZ123 19th Jul 2008 10:19

Expect confirmation on Friday August 15th of exactly what is being cut. With regard to the figures (parking up 744's) the % flight cutback as some observe does not match the parking figures, unless we have been using 744 on shorthaul not. The figires if they are correct seem to be no more than that expected for the Winter scheds.

Poof in Boots 19th Jul 2008 13:37

Whilst BA are cutting Mainline services and parking up aircraft, they plan to have six ex shorthaul 757's flying in Openskies colours by the end of 2009.

BAladdy 23rd Jul 2008 04:30

Winter Cutbacks UPDATE!!!
 
Official announcement will be at 0700 on 01st August. Also the Q1 results will be announced on this date.

What is known and been quoted by WW and other members of the management team is:

There will be NO cuts in Longhaul Services ex LHR or LGW.

A total of 5% of the total LHR/LGW shorthaul schedule. Will be cut.

The 15-20% LGW shorthaul cuts was a rumour and at no time have been planned.

Flights that are cut will be on destanations with high frequency of service.

Minimising the impact to frequent business travellers.

Also Richard Tams head of BA corperate sales had this to say about BA flying empty planes to keep slots.

"BA will also NOT operate so called ghost flights to keep slots."


Nothing has been mentioned about aircraft orders but this does not mean it won't form part of the August 1st Announcement

HZ123 23rd Jul 2008 07:47

I am afraid I find this hard to believe. If indeed there is to be so little change in respect of cuts then why are other airlines making positive cuts in services and staff levels. At CBK we have been told that August 15 will be the announcement of the reductions, which will include parking up a number of 747's.

BAladdy 23rd Jul 2008 15:53

I have no doubt what you have been told. Infact I believe the original date was the 14th. However you know what BA are like for changing there mind.

I work in IFS. My cousin in Sales and Marketing and my best friends is i ops and planning. They have all been told that the announcement will be on the 1st.

Also WW and Martin Broughton have both said in press reports it will be announced on the 1st August

However according to my mate in ops no 747 will be grounded as it will cost more money to store them in the desert than to have them at LHR operating and on standby. This is because of the high number of US carriers already taking up the space at the current storage fields.

Also they will be needed to cover then on average 4 x 772 going for new CW and AVOD reconfiguration from October to March

He did say something very interesting BA want to dispose of the 3 772's in the high F config as they would cost to much to reconfig when the new F is launched in March 09. Also BA want a standard size F cabin (believed to be between 10 and 12 seats on the 747's and the F embodied 772's. Also they are the only 3 that aren't ER varients.

OliWW 23rd Jul 2008 21:25

Ive just heard that BA's LCY-JFK flights using a A318 will have a fuel stop in BHD for every flight. I thought the whole idea of having a small but capable aircraft to do this route was the reason they chose a A318, now, I wonder why didnt they use something like the B737 which would have made it all the way with only 30-40 seats. This whole A318 thing does seem a bit far fetched, and I dont many people will be happy about taking a small aircraft from a small airport in the centre of london which is a nightmare to get too, theres a lack of facilities, and the flight has to have a fuel stop, and because its world class it will cost twice more than flying from heathrow, on a bigger plane, a brand new T5 and its cheaper and I think its easier to get to, just straight of the motorway.

chrism20 23rd Jul 2008 21:32

I was under the impression that the stop off was going to be either DUB or SNN which would allow pre-clearance meaning that the pax would arrive in to the states as domestic pax rather than international which would save a lot of time.

This service isnt aimed at the general joe bloggs who want to go to New York on holiday its for the high end business traffic who have offices 20 mins away at Canary Wharf.

Most of the seats on these flights will probably be paid for in bulk similar to the RBS deal on EDI-LCY

MUFC_fan 23rd Jul 2008 21:35

Probably end up as 50%+ charter flights for huge companies in London.

I presume EXTREMELY lucrative for the airline!

flightlevel26 23rd Jul 2008 23:27

BA cannot park a/c up at LHR, there are no remote stands available for long term, they either need Farnbrough or Fairford.

I do believe they have choosen on Filton to park 2 up midweek however the major reductions due fuel are reducing frequency on routes rather than dropping altogether. The company is in good shape overall with such a good balance sheet. When compared with the likes of AA and UA which have lost about US3 Billion between them at least BA is in a strong position going forward.

The A380 and 787 orders have already been financed so are going ahead regardless of the credit crunch/fuel. Due to the price of fuel it means investment in more fuel efficient a/c becomes even more important.

PAXboy 23rd Jul 2008 23:44

OliWW

I've just heard that BA's LCY-JFK flights using a A318 will have a fuel stop in BHD for every flight.

As advised, it is DUB or SNN but ONLY on the outbound, due runway limits at LCY


I wonder why didn't they use something like the B737
Probably because that a/c is not able to operate into LCY?? This service is specialised and highly focused. As has been discussed in here, the planning will have been in hand for several years.

Wycombe 24th Jul 2008 07:53

Flightlevel, nothing bigger than a 737 or 319 gets into Farnborough (due planning restrictions - unless the Airshow is on), so I doubt that.

Also, doubt Fairford - it's shut unless NOTAMED.

More likely would be places like Filton, Manston or Kemble I would have thought?

Skipness One Echo 24th Jul 2008 07:59


Ive just heard that BA's LCY-JFK flights using a A318 will have a fuel stop in BHD for every flight.
It's going through Shannon Westbound as the runway at London City is too short for the fuel load required to go direct. The runway at Belfast City isn't ideal for transatlantic weights and fuel I suspect, as even Ryanair are load constrained operating across to Prestwick on a B737.

WHBM 24th Jul 2008 08:02


Originally Posted by Wycombe (Post 4285267)
Flightlevel, nothing bigger than a 737 or 319 gets into Farnborough (due planning restrictions - unless the Airshow is on)

Not so. There was an Antonov 124 in there unloading only yesterday.

Wycombe 24th Jul 2008 11:21

Yes, but that is Airshow support traffic!..so exempt from the planning restrictions.

silverstreak 25th Jul 2008 11:18

The B737-600 (Flap/leading edge modified), IS approved for LCY ops, but BA have chosen Airbus for the Shorthaul Operation / 'Special Services' to keep costs down and commonality accross the fleet.

It will be interesting to see who ops this acft for BA (ie BA Mainline or BACityflyer etc etc...) There are 'recency' issuses with LCY as crew have to keep current with approaches and departures but with zillions of BA Mainline airbus crew, its would be impossible for them all to be current.

It would be great for BACityflyer as the Airbus would be a welcome addition by pax, crew and staff all round. It could operate south from Scotland, then over the pond. Would need more that 2 though...


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