CORK - 5
 

A number of posts regarding transatlantic service from Cork have appeared here over the past months and have usually combined fanciful ideas with wild speculation.

I suggest that Ulick McEvaddy's comments following his recent appointment to the board of Knock Airport could provide a useful reality check to those (Rebel) wishful thinkers. He is hoping for a 2008 launch- beginning with charters, which are permitted in the current Ireland/U.S. bilateral, as indeed they are for Cork.

I don't think there is any point in continuing to blame the bilateral for Cork's inability to develop transatlantic charters when you look at the huge volume of flights of this category from almost every U.K. city.


Continuation of: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...246248&page=17

Gaelqeoir,
Chartered transatlantic services is fine for Knock as the traffic would largely be tourist based.
Cork is the second most industialised region in the Republic of Ireland and needs scheduled transatlantic services. Given that they are already successful from Shannon (and from Belfast as of last year), it's a no brainer that they would be successful from Cork.
However Cork has 2 disadvantages, a relatively short runway and the current pathetic US bilateral agreement. Once those 2 obstacles are cleared, transatlantic scheduled services will operate from Cork.

Cork US servcies
 

Charters to Orlando might work but charters to JFK or BOS will not sell as people want flexibility. 757's and 767's should be OK for East Coast operations but the big question is can Cork and Shannon both sustain year round transatlantic flights.

My gut feeling is that in an open skies situation Cork will continue to flounder in relation to US services. For instance the new terminal has no area that pre US Immigration checks can be carried out.

Are the CAA willing to provide the level of marketing support that Delta, Continental or indeed Aerlingus will look for?

Can a wide body jet park at the new terminal or will passengers commence their journey across the pond with a long walk in the rain to stand
14?

Furthermore Cork people's support for their airport is very fickle. They're all for direct services but will then drive to Shannon and fly on a low cost Ryanair flight in order to save a few euro.

It's going to take vision and hard work to get a US service up and running from Cork. Time will tell if the upbeat noises emerging from the airport in recent weeks will amount to anything.

EI-RB

They used to operate Cork-Brimingham, but pulled out when Aer Arann went onto it.

Looking at their bases, they might consider Exeter (there's currently no service to the English South-West) or Norwich (Further from Stansted than you'd think), but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.

EI-RB

Recently I emailed Flybe and suggested they introduce Glasgow to Cork. This was their reply:

Singapore Airlines @ ORK
 

Just thought I'd mention that Singapore Airlines now offer through serivce SIN and byond. Online booking is also available. Fares are roughly 1200 rtn. Not too bad. Now that I think about it Ive noticed billboard ads for singapore airlines around the City from time to time.

Could this be a "toe in the water" do to speak for SQ? Certainly at DUB, whatever about ORK or SNN.

Still its nice to see that ORK is becomming better and better connected into the global alliances. Codeshares with both BA/oneworld and AA at LHR. Along with SQ. There is also an option to LHR, as EI have a strong relationship with KL/NW and Skyteam @ AMS as well!

oneworld brought few benfits to ORK and now that EI have left the connections ahve become much better, I feel. I still feel that BD could make a 2x daily service to LHR work tho...

Glasgow-Cork
 

Any chance of Fly Globespan operating Glasgow-Cork? They already have a significant presence at Glasgow and the sector time woul be relatively short so could they fit it in? It would also feed onto their longhaul operations from Glasgow

re: LCY - Q400 is more the beast you're looking for, 360kt and LCY certified. The problem is the only operator in these parts, Flybe, will be busy sucking down BA Connect routes for the next while so how likely is it they are coming calling in the near future.

Cork Debt
 

Has anyone heard anything about the debt issue with regard to the new terminal. They seem to be dragging it out as long as they can. Cork cannot survive in this limbo forever. I'd say there are two possible scenarios. Either they are trying to wait until after the election to sadle Cork with massive debt that it will be struggling to pay for the next 20-30 years, or else they will make the announcement just before the election that it will be debt free, trying to buy votes(like they've been doing at Shannon for years). Either way it looks like they'll be in limbo for a while yet.

I hope Cork is not saddled with the terminal debt otherwise there will be little hope for much needed investment in the runways, parallel taxiways and CAT 111 navigation approach equipment.

Diversions
 

I've just been looking at Cork airport website arrivals and departures boards and in a surprise change of fortunes Madrid-Dublin and Rome-Dublin seem to have been diverted to Cork. However they are both scheduled to fly on to Dublin at 23.55. Will they fly light or will the passengers just sit on the tarmac in Cork until the weather improves at Dublin

Not weather diversions, it's a result of delays and diversions at Cork last night due to crosswinds. The MAD ORK and FCO ORK flights were cancelled today and the Dublin flights routed through Cork instead.

Remember the geniuses that designed Cork Airport decreed that the main runway should run at right angles to the prevailing winds. That is why tens of thousands of passengers have been diverted over the last 45 winters. 25/07 needs to be extended but I for one won't be holding my breath!

Thanks for the info. I thought it was odd alright when no other flights were diverted from Dublin. This has been just one of many days of diversions. How many more are to come over the next month?? Extending 25/07 will be tricky. It is as close to the Kinsale road as possible at one end, and theres another road at the other end. Unless you build a tunnel under the runway like there is at Amsterdam.

The road on the western end isn't much of a consideration. It's fairly minor and could just be routed around the perimeter of any extension. Of more interest is the fact that there's the remains of a ring fort down there. Extending the runway would miss it, but it could be a bit of a pain for a construction site.

On the eastern end, the Kinsale road would probably have to go below in a tunnel. I've noted before that the access road to the airport takes an unnecessary dip and then rises to meet the roundabout. It makes me wonder if someone has thought of lowering the level of the roundabout.

There are a few other issues on the Eastern end. There are a few houses that would have to be demolished. The floodlights at the Harlequins hockey ground would have to go, which would probably mean moving the entire club.

A slight problem with the runway is that any taxiway (assuming there would be one) would have to go on the side away from the airport, which is undesirable from an operational perspective. Perhaps a new runway could be constructed parallel to 25/07 with the existing runway turned into the taxiway.

IF and its a big IF 25/07 were to be extended then its my guess that there would not be a taxiway as all an aircraft would simply backtrack as they do at the minute. I also suspect that for optimal operational effeciency ( and lowest cost) both runways should be extended. The current runway for take off (and landing of heavy jets) with 25/07 used for single aisle jets in cross winds. A thousand feet onto both should do the trick, I suspect.

Playing monopoly
 

PLEASE........given the extremely serious debt facing Cork's management, I find facile statements such as those highlighted above to be absolutely meaningless.

The terminal debt has not yet been decided. There was a government commitment made not to load this debt onto Cork.
Aer Rianta assumed the Shannon terminal development debt and with an election coming up we expect the same in Cork.
Extension of both runways, parallel taxiways and an upgrade of the nav aids is needed for Cork to compete fairly with the other State airports and help regional development in Ireland.

SQ @ Ork
 

Brian,

Just a quick note. SQ has had fares from Ork for along time. It's simply the EI feed into LHR, similar to SNN and DUB.

Fares to SIN start around €800 plus taxes - SYD is there from about €900. Just looked up the fare. CX also offer fares etc etc.

For online bookings try ADVERT LINK REMOVED. Great booking engine.

Cheerio

Shamrogue

Well some posters are of the impression that an entrie runway should be built. That is not the case.Humour me for a moment.....

There are two issues surrounding the runway, runway length and crosswinds.

There is already an X runway at ORK, and it has been used in recent days by EIs 320s. Given that the use of this runway would need strong Xwinds, a pretty short extension should do the trick. It may also be possibe to install CAT III to this runway more easily than it would to the current primary runway.

As I understand it the current runway at ORK is unlikely ever to be Cat III equipped, due to terrain, etc. However this runway could be used for take offs in most condtions. If ORK is ever to get a susatined transatlantic service the runway could be extended. The shorter extension of the current primary, would in all probability cost much less than building a new runawy parallel to 05/27 and tuning that into a taxi way.

With the use of two runways operational felxibility and effeciencies would arise. Think about for a second, as one aircraft can use one runway as a taxiway, while the other takes-off/lands on the other. Seem logical to me.

After the fiasco that is the current terminal debt, ORK needs cost effective, and effctove solutions to teh current problems. While I am not an expert on the geography and land usage around the airport, I would imagine that there is more scope to extend the Xrunway than the primary. How many diversions have there been due to fog and winds this winter? Look at the costs the airlines whould have been spared in fuel, busses and positioning if their planes could land at the airport instead of going to DUB/SNN.

The question would surely arrise, why would you build a brand new runway instead of extending the one(s) already in pace to offer a similar solution.

More than likely there will never be any runway extensions to 17/35 or 25/07, a parallel taxiway, a CATIII ILS for a long, long time to come. Nothing. Why you may ask? One, the airlines will not come out publicly and seek these much needed improvements in case it would affect their bottom line by having to pay a bit extra in charges. Two, many Cork politicians are mugs just like a lot of their electorate and the airport is so far down the list of priorities locally it just does not count. The DAA and CAA etc know this well and they are successfully able to fob off Cork passengers and the public up to their eyeballs and blame diversions on fog, winds etc and a lot of the time the public buy it from them hook, line and sinker and they get away with all the spin. For example, on a recent occasion the fact that some flights at Shannon were also affected by strong cross winds was enough of an excuse to explain why Cork had also weather affected flights and that made it all so understandable and, Viola, the crowd at the airport are in the clear with the public!

I have been in London all week due to a family bereavement and I returned to Cork this morning on FR901 for the weekend before having to head back again on Monday next for the funeral on Tuesday. Well, let me tell you all the final approach down the ILS to 17 this morning scared the daylights out of me, we were being tossed all over the place in the turbulent crosswinds, the landing was very hard and rollout was like a Metropolitan Police car on two wheels going around a corner like I saw yesterday in the North London area. The corner was as tight as the runway is at Cork!

It is so plainly obvious that runway 25/07 should be the runway of choice at Cork in the prevailing winds. This has been such a hard winter at Cork for go arounds and diversions off runway 17 you would think lessons would be noted for the future but with the kind of weak leadership there is from the politicians, the players at Cork Airport and from among the general public our airport will continue only to be second class or worse. Even the precious new heartless terminal cannot park a widebody such as a 767 or an A330 nose in to the new terminal? If not, what a farce the place is.

If you are interested in what happens to Cork Airport there is little choice but to carry on but I am now so full of pessimism I have reached such a new low.

And you can forget yer North Atlantic. The Bluebird Cargo 737 from Iceland and the Tango 9 airway down to Faro and the Canaries is our lot at Cork.

I wasn't so much proposing the building of a new runway as looking at the practicalities involved in extending 07/25.

If any money does become available, it is a low priority below extending the apron space, extending 17/35 and getting CAT III in. Which can probably be read as not in my lifetime...

As it happens I was in contact today with the Director of Elections of a principal Irish Labour Party candidate in the upcoming General Elections. They have conducted a well focused canvas on the doorsteps in Cork since February, 2006 and not on any occasion has any voter at all made a comment about Cork Airport. Not one.

Granted, that the social issues of health, security/policing, education/childcare, mortgages/cost of living etc is what counts in a lot of people's minds and pockets but the fact that no questions or remarks were put about the airport is revealing on how little it matters to many Cork people especially in the light of the pretty regular media coverage there was at different times last year about the new terminal and the associated debt.

Looks like the government, Minister Cullen, the DAA/CAA are going to be able to get away with anything they want at Cork Airport? :ugh:

Ryan2000
 

All is not well at the airport though. If I was working for the CAA, I wouldn't be complacent about my future. Costs are going through the roof.

BMI baby @ ORK
 

Could someone please help me, im just inquiring about the loads BMI baby achieve on there ORK -

• MAN
• BHX

Routes, As i notice BMI are alot more expensive than EI when booking within a few days of departure and i believe the EI and WW departures are within 5 minutes of each other somedays.

Thanks

Cork BHX
 

BMI is well ahead of EI on BHX during November at 75%,EI around 56% but BMI BABY has a Daily service while EI op just 4 per week. Of course yields are the unknown factor.

RE72

Anytime I check prices for MAN (in advance!) BMI are always cheaper than EI.
And, in fact, BMI charge less taxes than EI. So a BMI base-fare of 20euro is actually cheaper than an Aer Lingus base fare of 16euro (for example), and with BMI you get to check in a bag for free too!

BMI Baby seem to be holding up well to the competition from Aer Lingus on Cork-Birmingham. Hopefully the cycle of a new operator driving the existing operator off the route has ended. First Aer Arann drove Flybe off the route, then Baby drove Aer Arann off the route, before Aer Lingus entered the fray trying to drive Baby off the route. They haven't succeeded so far. However how will the travelling public take to the new Summer timetables which has much later Birmingham and Manchester flights. The Cork-Birmingham leg doesn't get in until almost eleven at night. That won't be popular with those from the West Midlands area who may have to drive home from BHX.

BMI do charge for baggage on the baby services (BHX, MAN)

Only the LBA has no baggage charge

ryanair pull off lgw ???
 

The neil prendaville show this morning on local radio 96fm reported that fr has pulled off the lgw route, the conversation was about the number of flts canx or dis-continued ex ork. Has anyone more def info

wow - didnt see that one coming ? Is there any confirmation that FR are going to pull out of the Gatwick route. I would love to see EI uptake the route or see the return of EZ

Was this just said by a random punter on a phone-in or was it said by someone who might know what they're talking about?

At present, Ryanair are still selling tickets on the route until the end of June. Although, perhaps ominously, they are selling Cork-Stansted and Dublin-Gatwick tickets into July.

This is ridiculous. We had five flights daily last year, and now we could end up with no service. There must surely be demand for one flight at the least. Easyjet probably won't come back after what happened the last time.

If it's true, it's an opportunity for the 2 other carriers based in Cork, Aer Lingus and Aer Arann or perhaps BMI Baby or Easyjet could also incorporate the route on their summer schedules. The demand clearly exists for this route.

Is the Gatwick route opperated by an ORK based aircraft ?

If so where are FR planning on flying t o instead

Yes

I'd still take the Neil Prendeville Show as a very unreliable source. However, I could see Ryanair dropping Gatwick and operating ORK-DUB from Dublin, while withdrawing the Cork-based aircraft anyway.

Aer Arann are the only operator that I could imagine taking up the route in the short-term. BMIBaby have limited marketing ability at both ends of the route and have already pulled off it once. Aer Lingus have no spare aircraft capacity this summer.

Welcome to the wonderful world of the airline that "loves competition." You don't think for a moment that ryanair ever intended to keep a high level of service to gatwick once they'd run Easy out of town? If they ever get EI, expect similar wholesale chopping of routes all across their Irish network. Competition for fr is very definitely not about the consumers interests.

Gatwick
 

Ryanair's cynicism will have reached a new level if they withdraw from Cork Gatwick having got Easyjet off the route.

We'll then be back to the 2003 level of service on Cork London. High yields and not enough capacity. One good reason not to let Ryanair get their hands on Aerlingus.

Gatwick
 

I think we're all getting carried away here...

Whoever was talking on 96FM possibly said "Ryanair pulling the Gatwick service" when they meant to say "Easyjet".

Normally the Neil Prendeville show will be repeated in the very early hours of tomorrow morning.

Ork-lgw
 

We all know the only reason that U2 are not on the route is because of the presence of FR, and if easyJet were to return I think we could expect a repeat of the former tricks. However maybe easy could use this to their advantage? Especially if FR came back on the route.

FR have already pulled the NOC-LGW route, I think SNN-LGW still survives, but how committed FR is to the route remians to be seen. To be fair LGW is the orphan in the FR route system, STN suits them much better IMO.

On the subject of WW on MAN and BHX, be aware that WW does not include a credit card fee until the last minute, and I think its 7.50 EUR (5 GBP) so the differences between the fares remains the same. eg 19 EUR on EI finishes up at about 54 EUR while the WW FARE OF 30.99 ends up at about 60EUR. So the taxes are about the same really.

No, it's true.
 

The flights are unbookable for next summer (June/July) and every other flight is, I'd say it not a matter of uploading schedules.

And...Cork Airport will recieve a new control tower! Yes...it's due.
The Irish Aviation Authority are looking for tenders.

Saw it on a site, Irish Airport News. Search for it in Google.
But do you think the money should be spent on something else?