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Continuation of: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...225260&page=14
I wonder if a runway extension at LBA would havs affected Thomsons decision to start pulling out. It does not make sense to operate the short haul programme from LBA and the long haul programme from DSA. Could the airport not see this coming? DSA have been shouting about their long runway for about 5 years.Maybe I am wrong but this is what I would be thinking about if I was a Thomson decison maker. Once DSA becomes established, there is no going back and LBA has lost the chance for ever. EA once said, "We do not see DSA as a threat, we can work together". I assume he means, LBA provide the passengers and DSA the flights!!!! |
I think these two airports will always be in competition no matter what anyone says for one very good reason. In geographical terms the south side of Leeds might be LBA catchment, but in travelling time it's up for grabs. As a Leeds lad dragged up in Armley (not the jail!) who now lives 5 minutes driving time from DSA I know that it takes me about 45 minutes to visit the relatives in Leeds and then depending on the time half an hour to an hour to get to Yeadon. (Using the old name to prove I know what I'm talking about.) If you were talking to a travel agent and didn't like the sound of travelling to DSA, then the agent said 'well it might actually be quicker than LBA' it might make you more amenable, in spite of local loyalties.:bored:
Tim |
Have noticed on Jet2's website that Toulouse shows as an available destination from LBA, could this be another imminent announcement?
BD have tinkered with their new late evening ER4 LHR flight, which starts at the end of this month. It's now planned to operate 40 mins earlier than originally scheduled, so departs LBA at 20:20 and arrives back at 22:50, rather than 23:30. BD will also be operating the ER3 on a Sunday evening LHR service, alongside the usual Airbus flight. Must surely be the smallest pax aircraft operating a scheduled service into LHR this winter! Most definitely a slot retainer, given that it leaves LHR about 20 mins after the 319 flight! |
I can only see Toulouse is available from MAN??
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Jet2 Leeds and Manchester
So with the recent announcement of 6 new routes from Manchester does it now have more destinations than Leeds ? and how long do we think it will be before Manchester offers them a deal to move the main base across the hills as has happenen in the past.
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I understand that today, Bradford City Council will announce their decision on whether to sell their 40% share in LBA or not.Leeds and other shareholders have said yes.
Again on TV last night it was mentioned about selling the family silver. If their decision is negative, then the family silver would become very expensive. If the holder of the 60% decided 100million should be invested, where will Bradford find 40million? Or do Bradford Council believe they will only collect money from the airport and are happy for it not to grow. Ownership of the airport should be left to the experts and not local councillors. I just hope they make the right decision. |
A300BOY
By my reckoning MAN now has 23 routes and LBA has 26 from Jet2. I don't see the whole Jet2 story as a M v L thing anymore. Look at the pax figures and you'll see that both bases can co-exist quite happily. Now, I believe when MAPLC approached Jet2 in the first place their opening gambit was a straight transfer of the Leeds routes to Manchester which thankfully Jet2 declined. Quite sensibly they took-up the offer of a base however and the rest is history. Let's hope that Bradford Council do the right thing (my parents are Bfd Council taxpayers!) so we can see some developments on CatII ILS for runway 14 and RSEA works around the 32 threshold. BTW Did anyone see that pathetic journalism on BBC Look North last night? Reason NOT to sell the airport....it will disturb my golf swing! |
Breaking news....Bradford Council Executive approve sale, just awaiting the full Council to nod through the decision. Keep 'em crossed!
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Breaking News - Updated
Well its official. Bradford Council have now agreed to the sale of its 40% of Leeds/Bradford Airport Heres the official press release from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/5410708.stm. The sale of Leeds Bradford Airport to the private sector will go ahead after the move was given the green light by Bradford Council. The authority, which owns 40% of the airport, agreed to the sale after a full council meeting on Thursday. Leeds City Council has already agreed to sell its 40% stake, along with other shareholders Kirklees, Calderdale and Wakefield councils. The sale of the airport could be completed by spring next year. 'Hard realities' Deputy leader of Bradford Council, Dale Smith, said the authority's decision had not been forced on it by the other shareholders which had already agreed to the sale. He said: "We have taken this decision looking at hard commercial realities. "We wish to see the airport move into the 21st century. We are not hanging on anyone else's coat-tails here." Mr Smith said any estimate of what the airport could be worth was "speculation", but figures in the region of £40m have been reported. He said: "Any money into the council tax payers' coffers is obviously welcome." Safeguards for future After Leeds Council announced its decision last month, councillor Andrew Carter said there were development constraints while the airport was publicly owned. He said: "The airport business is complex and we believe this sort of commercial risk is more suited to the private sector." But, he said, the authority would ask for safeguards about the future of the airport. Leeds Bradford International Airport was originally Yeadon Aerodrome, which began operating in October 1931. The five local authorities took over its ownership in 1987. The airport currently serves 60 direct destinations and was used by more than 2.5m passengers in 2005. |
This is undoubtedly good news, although unsurprising, I guess we will have to suffer the "Bradford" part of the airport name for a few years to come, which may be not a bad thing as Bradford has now started to trigger its regeneration as a city on the back of its regional rival.
£40m seem's low for an airport doing just under 3m pax, with an average growth rate of 10% per month over the last 2 yrs, which is a couple of percent higher than its new South Yorkshire rival. I guess this is a "net" figure...ie pure asset value at present, excluding the well known investment requirements needed for LBA. I am speculating, but i guess the true value that the airport will be sold with will be at the level that either one "side" will invest. E&Y, claim that there "is a significant interest in the airport". 682amsl, as a respected contibutor, any comments? |
My understanding is that a condition of sale will be a continuation of the LBA name....quite right too! Let's not start a L v B debate.....we have enough on our plates supporting LBA with MAN of old and more recently DSA without local infighting!
I note that a DSA forum (hosted elsewhere) has had a bit of Donny v Shef in the recent past...there are bigger fights to fight for all of us Tykes..even if we are away on missionary work down south! |
Thanks for the kind words CR7.
I believe the £36m number quoted (rounded up to £40m by the media!) represents the net balance sheet of the company at the moment, i.e. the net book value of its assets less liabilities. As an indicator of the likely sales price, it is next to useless given any deal is going to be transacted on the profit generating potential of the business over the mid-long term + the capital growth of the business. The last LBA-esque airport to move out of council control was NCL back in spring 2001. Then Copenhegan Airports Group paid £145m for a 49% stake in the business at a time when the airport was just above the 3m pax p/a threshold. Allowing for the fact the price will have factored in the lack of a controlling interest, that valued the airport at c.£300m in total. On balance a similar valuation for LBA today is not unrealistic. On the up side is the fact the regional aviation business has grown since 2001, the fact LBA is the last remaining opportunity of its size in the UK and the clear evidence of a significant amount of the local catchment currently using MAN. On the downside, capitalising on the potential of the business needs investment in the airport landside and airside infrastructure and improved transport links. Interestingly, Ernst & Young also acted for the authorities in the North East and it was they who brokered the NCL deal with Copenhegan. With the political obstacles out of the way, the fundamental question is who will bid and will the authorities select the "right" bidder. 682 |
Given that both Leeds and Bradford councils have significant Tory presences....one expects that there have been some back room conversations about possible buyers..however....
Peel & MAPLC - both out on competition issues. Macquarie - poss and my favourite. Copenhagen Airports group - poss, but given S&Ps statement last week? TBI (abertis) - poss, particularly given their geographic spread - a nice addition. Ferrioval (BAA) - poss, but have probably got bigger fish to fry with the break-up of BAA. Anyway...interesting times ahead!! |
The EEC recently decided that Paris Orly and CDG were sufficiantly far apart not to count as "competetiive under EEC rules", so if Peel or MAN PLC felt so inclined, they could put in a bid.
MAcquarie - possibly, but they have a lot of investment tied up elsewhere and probaly couldn't afford it. TBI - no spare cash, wouldn have to borrow heavily against one of their other airports - not permitted by CAA regulations. Ferovial - No. The Germans?????? |
682, thanks for u comments, i am in agreement, but i am a bit concerned of E&Y being involved from personal experience, plus i do not see the similarities between LBA and NCL.....ie NCL with a captured catchment area, and LBA with a fluid catchment area..but i guess this will come out in the wash....
14 Loop, Think outside the box...does it need to be one of the "usuals", there have been various documented and undocumented rumours...right from Fraport and AENA in the aviation industry, thru Babcock's, and Shepherd's in the construction industry, thru to locals like Jan Fletcher and KW Linfoot in the developer industry as potentials. I guess we will be a million miles away from the eventual buyer, should there be one, when the deal is eventually done. I think the next 6-8 month will be very interesting |
'so if Peel or MAN PLC felt so inclined, they could put in a bid'
Bid they can, but my mole however (close to one of the council executives) suggests there was some worry about selling to the wrong people. He says there are some very anti-Peel / MAPLC feelings within [I]one[I] council to ensure that a sale to either of these parties is unlikely. Likewise, if you were a bear would you sh** in the w**ds? I think other players will stump up better money rather than pay over the odds and dilute existing, competing, airports...read Peel (DSA, MME) and MAPLC (HUY, EMA and of course MAN). |
Bom CR7...quite happy to accept other bidders...Fraport & AENA are particularly good infrastructure investors...familiar with Babcocks but not Shepherds.
Anyway, this thread will expand over the next few months...will be good to watch. |
Originally Posted by 14 loop
(Post 2891574)
'so if Peel or MAN PLC felt so inclined, they could put in a bid'
Bid they can, but my mole however (close to one of the council executives) suggests there was some worry about selling to the wrong people. He says there are some very anti-Peel / MAPLC feelings within [I]one[I] council to ensure that a sale to either of these parties is unlikely. Likewise, if you were a bear would you sh** in the w**ds? I think other players will stump up better money rather than pay over the odds and dilute existing, competing, airports...read Peel (DSA, MME) and MAPLC (HUY, EMA and of course MAN). Of course they can do that, how easy that is will depend on how well they prove that. |
Interesting times indeed my friends, reading through the lines of all your guesses, I have a little niggle about the Spaniards.
Remember London city was up for sale, one company pulled out from the bidding, I guess the price was getting a little silly - £750m they offered But I reckon their still looking for an airport to buy so putting 2 and 2 together the Spanish construction group Sacyr Vallehermoso could be a runner. Either way, I bet the bids are already on the table !! |
A300boy
I think the sale was probably instigated as a result of an offer or enquiry made to them. If we get the right buyer I am sure with the operational issues of the Ils upgrade and runway length, resolved we can give our competitor airfield a run for there money, but they are in the driving seat at the moment and in a very strong position regarding long haul flights. I dread to think what would be the result of Jet 2 pulling out or having financial problems.
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Aside from the operational shortcomings already mentioned, the thing which really needs sorting at LBA is access. The place is just too difficult to get to - and that isn't going to come cheap.
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Hear hear SWBKCB! Access is absolutely diabolical. No prospect for a rail route without a rack-and-pinion contraption, and nowhere to put a decent dual carriageway without dehousing the residents of Horsforth / Yeadon or demolishing the Golf Course. I drive past LBA every day and it's only ever easy if I want to get to work at 0700hrs. Even an access road won't solve the problems of trying to get anywhere in West Yorkshire at anything other than snail's pace.
I can't see Jet2 wanting to relocate just at the moment. The pain of moving the HQ from BOH to LBA isn't yet fully sorted so moving lock, stock and barrel to DSA isn't a realistic option. Also, the current business model hasn't gone down the LH route so, by and large, the runway isn't a problem. Yes, the whole industry is a hostage to fortune, but it always has been so 'so far, so good' (touch wood). |
Originally Posted by A300BOY
(Post 2892885)
I think the sale was probably instigated as a result of an offer or enquiry made to them. If we get the right buyer I am sure with the operational issues of the Ils upgrade and runway length, resolved we can give our competitor airfield a run for there money, but they are in the driving seat at the moment and in a very strong position regarding long haul flights. I dread to think what would be the result of Jet 2 pulling out or having financial problems.
If 50% of the passengers passing through DSA originate from the LBA core catchment area, there is potential lost business of 0.4m passengers per year. If 10% of the passengers passing through MAN originate from the LBA core catchment area, there is potential lost business of 2.2m passengers per year. I'd be very surprised if anything like 50% of DSA's traffic was from in and around the LBA heartland and I'd be equally surprised if the % using MAN wasn't above 10%. In short, the new management will (I hope) be focussing on where the biggest threat and biggest opportunities are and unless there is a sudden and significant change in the DSA schedules, it will continue be 70 miles west along the M62. 682 |
Possible runway extension
I always wonder by how much they can extend the runway at LBA.
Gordon Dennison once told me that if they had known about it, the runway could have been long enough to allow BA Concordes to land. This is why the first landing was by Air France as BA said it was too short. However, then there must have been a change in BA operational rules and as we all know, BA eventually came to LBA with Concorde. For sure, an extension at 32 end is the most desirable. This could probably be 190m taking the full length up to 2440m (8000ft) But, if you look at the land heights on Google Earth at the 14 end, even 1200m (4000ft) is possible. Ridiculas I know and not needed. But, my point is this. We have restricted take off on 32 because of the Chevin. But, what if there was more than enough runway available for a 14 take off even with a strong tail wind, would this not solve all the problems. My reasoning being the example of the now closed Kai Tak airport (Hong Kong). I cannot recall any of the endless stream of Jumbos taking off towards the sky Scrapers of Kowloon.Surely, a worse problem than the Chevin. |
Goldtrail 2007
Goldtrail Holidays have put Dalaman and Bodrum on sale for next summer. DLM will again be a Monday morning departure with Onur Air while the BJV moves to Monday evening again on Onur Air. Both will run for the full summer season...hopefully!
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Toulouse is now showing in the Jet2 booking engine.
Weekly flight on a Saturday from mid May07 |
fr div today psa-dsa-lba
Intresting see todays flight psa-dsa diverted to lba .Does DSA not have full catIII.What happened to outbnd flight
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Doncaster's FR Pisa has diverted to LBA last Friday, and again today. DSA is only CATI until early next year when it will be CATIIIa on rwy 20.
The outbound flights were cancelled. |
Apron space
Does anybody know why the management decided to erect 2 buildings on the best part of the apron and force more aircraft onto remote stands.
Then, spend more money to build new stands. There is plenty of space to put these big sheds elsewhere like on the grassed area to the side. |
DSA have also lost the Easyjet Geneva flight for next year according to my sources...
graham |
Thought this was the Leeds thread.:=
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Airport Hotel (another shed)
Which bunch of muppets gave permission for such a low class Hotel (sort of)
to be built in such a prime location. I remember one idiot councillor saying it will be a big boost for flight crews. Which flight crews? I believe the inmates must walk to the airport in order to feed. Lets hope the new owners of LBA will discard all this rubbish including the previously mentioned apron sheds and Hall B shed. (sorry, in bad mood and anti shed today) wawkrk |
Would be shocked if any airline used it as a crew hotel. No good at all if food is not available 24 hours a day!
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Airport Hotel
Any comments?
Did I miss something ? http://www.holidaycityeurope.com/tra...rport/map.html http://www.holidaycityeurope.com/tra...dford-airport/ |
Travelodge???
That certainly doesn't look like the Travelodge I stayed in at LBA last year!!! Perfectly acceptable for punters....save the walk to Murgatroyds for some decent fish and chips!
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Old news I know but is this a joke.
WORK STARTS ON MAJOR NEW HOTEL AT LEEDS BRADFORD AIRPORT 18 May 2004 CONSTRUCTION work is underway on a new multi-million pound Travelodge hotel THIS IS THE MULTI MILLION POUND MAJOR HOTEL ? http://www.lbia.co.uk/newsandupdates...oryid=20041022 Reckon I would ask for my money back. Cant blame them for showing a false map and a Hotel in some other city. |
TUI - Jet2 etc
Much has been written about TUI dropping LBA as a base and now a rash of other airports also.Should this create any panic?
I dont think so, except maybe in TUI management. In my opinion its a case of closing the door after the horse has bolted. TUI have been caught with their pants down by the meteoric rise of outfits like Jet2. More a case of Bambi in the headlights methinks. Their latest strategy (assuming they had one in the past) is to create a few fortresses at selected airports. If you take LBA as an example, even in the Thomson good old days, their programme would have taken 6 years to equal 1 year of Jet 2. And this is only the beginning. They have totally missread the market. They knew that LBA flights were always amongst the best supported. Leeds is the 3rd biggest city in the UK after London and Birmingham. They are only at DSA because of no competition. They are in danger of becoming a charter version (or ex) of BMI. I think they are totally bewildered.Their business model died and nobody spotted it. At the end of the day, the market is customer driven. wawkrk |
Wawkrk, agreed in toto. Sadly having lost the plot they moved in at DSA and as a result will cream off some LBA pax who do not wish to build their own holiday using Jet2. However as you point out the all in package is dwindling in favour of the Loco's but there is still a substantial market there, just look at MAN LGW etc. As long as Jet2 and LBA under new ownership continue to grow I dont really care what happens to TUI given the way they have treated the LBA pax over the years. Far too many diversions to MAN when everyone else was landing, I'm told it was nothing to do with the crew being MAN based. Surely on the technical diversions to MAN it would have been cheaper to send engineers in a van to LBA rather than coach 200+ pax across!
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Quoting WAWKRK 'Leeds is the 3rd biggest city in the UK after London and Birmingham' Unquote
..............And Manchester, Glasgow, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Belfast, Newcastle...........:confused: |
haven't we been here hundreds of times before in hundreds of different threads. And isn't the conclusion always that it's a matter of definition;
http://www.lovemytown.co.uk/Populations/TownsTable1.htm http://www.lovemytown.co.uk/Populati...cilsTable1.htm |
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