I think what a lot of people don't realise is that travel agents are now using firms like Jet2 to "piggy back" for them in packages put together by the agency.

The truth is these can not only work out much cheaper than those offered by TUI but gives the pax chance to fly from his/her local airport.

TUI have done nothing but bully the charter market along with the pax and even the airport over the years. The chickens are now coming home to roost and its like music to my ears :hmm:

It was not my intention to get into my city is bigger than your city again.
It was only to make the point about the sizeable Leeds and Bradford markets that have been abandoned.
The real problem is the fact that Thomson have protected the Manchester market far too long and now they have lost some business.
Yes, maybe they will attract some loyal diehards to DSA, but I think the market has changed faster than anyone imagined.
The flexibilty provided by Jet2 for example cannot matched.
There is no need to travel on the notorious change over days any longer.
You can travel any day and stay for any length of time.
As I have written before, for the resort hotels and apartment owners, this is surely better. They get paid probaby immediately instead of having to wait until the end of year, and get a higher price.
In the longer term, surely the story is over for the traditional package holiday.
Now if Jet2 provided flights for Thomson.............

Aeu @ Lba
 

I hear that AEU are to close there Leeds Bradford base permanently. A real shame for the crew and the airport.

It would be naive of me to think that LBA's new owners would be the answer to all the problems the airport faces. There are however some major issues which urgently need to be tackled which will hopefully enable us to attract new and varied business whilst simultaneously sticking two fingers up at those airlines and tour ops who dare to bugger our customers about.

We need a brand new terminal building. One that is large, easily extendable, non-curved with easy access to aircraft parking stands and a significant retail section. It could be sited on either the existing long stay or short stay car park, with a new multi storey for short stay. The current terminal can then be pulled down and the area concreted over to provide more apron and taxiing space for our aircraft. At the same time we'd lose rent-a-tent baggage hall B and all the other silly prefab buildings that take up valuable apron space.

The runway needs to be longer, I don't think there's any doubting that one. A few more feet (well, several hundred actually), preferably at the southeast end could make so much difference. At the very least, the 32 threshold needs budging back a bit so it's on a flat section of runway, making CAT3B ops on 32 a more realistic possibility than it is at the moment. I am fairly certain the technology now exists for at least CAT2 on runway 14. I'd be happy to hear from any ILS experts out there who can add some definitive answers to the debate.

Road access ? Not too sure about this one. It would be pretty difficult to widen and/or reroute the A658 given that it cuts through several built-up areas. Perhaps some sort of spur of the Leeds outer ring road may be the answer. I have a serious lack of knowledge of urban road planning so any better informed contributions are welcome.

I hope the likes of Macquarrie, BAA, TBI etc. have deep pockets. They'll certainly need them. Let's see.

Extract from the Telegraph
 

I'm not entirely sure I'm allowed to do this but this is in today's Telegraph (26/10/06).


"THE sale of Leeds Bradford International Airport is set to take off next month when its owners issue an information flyer seeking bids in excess of pounds 100m.

Leeds Bradford's five local authority owners have hired accountants Ernst & Young to handle the sale of the latest UK regional airport to be put on the block.

They hope to capitalise on the strong bidding interest in airport assets following the pounds 750m sale of London City Airport and the pounds 60m sale of Exeter, both of which fetched better-than-expected prices.

The fast-growing Leeds Bradford hit the headlines earlier this month when a Sun reporter claimed she had boarded a plane wearing a Muslim niqab veil without being asked to show her face for passport checks.

However, it is the forecasts for passenger traffic growth which will catch the attention of bidders. The flyer is expected to show that the single runway airport has seen a 183pc rise in passenger traffic over the past decade, up from 922,976 passengers in 1995 to 2.61m last year.

Total turnover is up from pounds 17.6m in the year to March 2002 to pounds 21.02m in the most recent financial year, when profits slipped from pounds 881,000 to pounds 788,000 pre-tax. Net assets increased from pounds 31.1m to pounds 34.2m last year. While profits are low, one banker said: "Airports are being sold on passenger forecasts, not earnings multiples.''

Leeds Bradford is expecting rapid passenger growth, partly owing to the expansion of Jet2, owned by the private Dart Group. Jet2 passengers at Leeds Bradford rose by 17pc last year. Other customers include Bmi and KLM Cityhopper.

Leeds Bradford directors expect passenger traffic to top 3m in the next two years and reach 5m passengers by 2015.

The airport is situated at one of the biggest conurbations outside London, but loses traffic to neighbouring airports, including Manchester.

Leeds and Bradford councils each own 40pc of the airport, with Calderdale, Kirklees and Wakefield councils holding the rest of the shares.

Some of the losing bidders for Exeter Airport, including the Low Cost Airport Group led by Blackpool Airport owner Paul Whelan, and Save, the Italian operator of Venice Marco Polo airport, are expected to take a look at Leeds Bradford. Abertis, the owner of Luton Airport, Balfour Beatty, which successfully bid for Exeter, and various private equity groups are also likely to be interested.

Leeds Bradford expects to complete the sale in the first quarter of next year".


> Sale by first quarter next year - they're not hanging around.

I'd like to know where you got this information ? As far as I know nothing could be further from the truth.

I heard it from a crew member who has received a letter from the company explaining that there will no longer be a base at LBA. This apparently is due to a dispute with a tour operator.

NEW-CREW's information is correct unfortunately. It would have been nice to have seen a 737-800 at LBA from AEU next summer, but unfortunately myTravel seem to have scuppered that.

BombardierCR7

Okay thanks for that guys, the question is then : Who will run the programme from LBA for MYT next year ?

....or maybe there will be no programme ?? (still bookable however)

Maybe a chance of Futura ? afterall they operate a number of MYT flights across the UK.

Futura certinaly do operate a lot of MYT group charter work. I know everything short-haul at CWL is Futura for MYT

Whos going to fly MYT routes out of LBA Summer 07
 

Well before astraeus decided to end ops at lba (LAST FLIGHT TOMORROW)

it was suggested to staff that a 737-800 would be damp leased from HELIOS airways ((well their re-incarnation AJET AVIATION))

But we got told last week that this isnt happening and someone like BMI or BMI baby will take on the routes:sad:

BMI would be good, i could see them using an A320 if they did MYT charters.

How about Jet2 ? Now there's a possibility :confused:

From LBA's website it now shows:

Tue ALC on a W with TOM
Wed Banjul with AEU. Nothing from TOM (i.e. ACE gone !)
Thu ACE with IWD
Fri TFS with AEA (no TOM)
Sat ALC on a W with TOM plus the Chambery and Innsbruck
Sun Malta BritishJet

TOM's website however still shows a based unit. Are LBA unveiling something that TOM haven't yet told their customers ??

What's the chances of MYT basing on of their own??

BMI with a based A320 are to pick up MYT / Astraeus S07 charters with a few tweaks to the plan.

No FNC, CFU or VRN. Dalaman will be done in place of CFU on a Friday. Possibly a PMI flight on a saturday.

Heres the programme for bmi's based A320 on Charters for LBA next summer 2007.

Mondays
LBA – REU 09:30 12:40 REU – LBA 19:40 20:55(W legs to Teeside)
Tuesdays
LBA – PMI 07:00 10:30 PMI – LBA 11:15 12:25
LBA – HKR 13:35 19:45 HKR – LBA 20:30 22:15
Wednesdays
LBA – RHO 07:00 13:15 RHO – LBA 14:00 15:50
LBA – FUE 16:50 21:05 FUE – LBA 21:50 01:40
Thursdays
LBA – FAO 06:00 08:55 FAO – LBA 09:40 12:20
LBA – ZKY 13:20 18:55 ZKY - LBA 19:40 20:55
Fridays
LBA – IBZ 06:00 09:30 IBZ – LBA 10:15 11:45
LBA – MAH 12:45 16:15 MAH – LBA 17:00 18:15
LBA – DJM 19:15 01:25 DJM – LBA 02:10 04:30
Saturdays
LBA - ALC 13:15 16:40 ALC – LBA 17:25 19:05
LBA – LPA 20:05 00:25 LPA – LBA 01:10 05:50
Sunday
LBA - AGP 07:00 10:55 AGP – LBA 11:40 13:20
LBA – LCA 14:20 21:05 LCA – LBA 21:50 00:10

1, No FNC Service (Been told that the operators are trying to get someone else in to operate it)
2.The Friday Eveing Thomas Cook service to CFU has been dropped. Now replaced with an DJM Service. (This was to be operated by a B737-800 of turkish airline Pegasus.)
3.The VRO service has been dropped. This is a nother service which is to be moved over to Thomsons DSA base. (A extra service to PMI along with the Thomsons REU service have been mentioned as a replacement op on Saturday mornings for the based unit.)
4.Noticed that the Wednesday FUE flight is now operated by the based unit. This has previously been operated by the likes off LTE and FUA.

Any comments guys??

I have a couple of comments:

1. Who says its going to be BMI ? has this been confirmed ??

2. Dalaman seems like a futile operation to me. Turkey is well down on peoples wish list for hols at present.

RobT100
 

1. It's on the MyTravel computer system with BD flight numbers.

2. It did'nt seem futile for Goldtrail who sold out their twice weekly Turkey programme with an A300 and an A321 with only a 2 month lead in time. MyTravel are only doing the DLM with the BMI flight, because this year it was done on the Thomsonfly 757 sharing with TUI.

Guess you don't work at LBA then?

Quick point to be made is that if you mean VRN by VRO, then it was already in place at DSA and so isn't being moved here from LBA.

thanks for that POL1W, missed that one. You are correct I dont work at LBA, my family own a travel agency in west yorks however. i dont work for them though.

They did tell me that the turkish flights werent doing so well however

RobT100

Having been one of those punters on the Onur Air A300 2 weeks back to Dalaman I can safely say 291+3 Pax outbound and 300 + on the way back.

:ok:

That has to be a good thing then. Goodness knows why TOM want to pull out.

RobT100

Simple, they think that passengers will stroll on merrily down the road to Doncaster (not!)

Eaglestar

Lets talk positive (hark at me - lol)...

PM has shown with Jet2 what a demand there is from LBA. You can talk about road access, terminal buildings, airbridges, runway length, what ever......

The fact is Jet2 has been a rip-roaring success from LBA and people in the district want to use the airport (and I know that is a fact because we regularly get clients who always want LBA as their first choice). Other companies (including TOM) would have to be fools not to recognise that fact.
I (and my family) firmly believe PM will continue to expand Jet2 into whatever the LBA users want it to become.

However I would be very surprised if (after all this growth) that another company doesnt step in and compete.

Yes its all happening ! :}

But is it not just a little sad at the same time? The arrival of the lowcost era has meant the closure of MYT at Leeds...remember the summers of two based A320's! ... The 757 every winter!.. The busy year round BY 757 sched then the based 767!..Remember Friday nights with a ramp full of interesting UK and Spanish Charter aircraft..!

AEU! Offering a great service to its pax.. a nice modern Aircraft.. investing in Leeds with a base..crew room! ...

Airlines Like BMI, KLM, Eastern pushed further down the priority list at Leeds... airlines that have kept the airport going! Through the hard times! Remained loyal!

We are all happy to see that ramp full, to see a success story! But what hapened to variety..what happend to choice. Its just so sad to see all these carriers closing at Leeds.

:bored:

The loss of AEU is rather grim. The dedicated crew, ... and also a big loss for Penuille Servisair !!!! The BMI contract for the A320 going to Aviance no doubt.

Imagine another massive industry downturn in Aviation.....do you think lowfare airlines that have been operating for 2mins will be able to surrvive.. worrying when you think how much of a LCC base LBA now is...

A300boy
 

Yep could not agree more ! I love the Jet2 product but feel all the Lba eggs are in one basket and as I have said before big bad Manchester is out courting them so it would not suprise me to see Lba relegated to lower priority as Manchesters potential for both bums on seats and operationally is much greater. I would love to be proved wrong though !

Being a Manchester guy I think Jet2 is complementry operating from both fields
as they have proved, no mad expansion but adding aircraft and routes in a planned and organised way

And long may they continue

G-I-B

Having spent a summer operating out of Leeds, I have to say I can see the problem. Within a circle of radius of less than about 25 miles, you have Manchester Airport, LBA, Doncaster Sheffield, with Liverpool, Humberside and East Midlands just outside. It's a terrific call on division of resources for an airline. I think LBA should have a limited life for the following reasons:
Limited expansion capabilities
Weather problems
Dreadful road access
Lack of public transport facilities
Noise, with approaches right over the city
Major runway upgrade/levelling required

If out of town shopping centres are henceforth banned to stop people driving to them, why is an airport like this encouraged? Everybody drives. If you look at other centres of population, nowhere except London is as well served by airports, and there they are someway out of town, maybe EDI/GLA too. The central south coast has just 2 tinpot airports- Southampton and Bournemouth. I can't help feeling it's time to encourage resources elsewhere. Because of the current pressure to stop the prols flying, we're hardly going to
start with a green field site, but one of those three should bite the dust, and I feel it should be LBA. But money is being spent upgrading a dead duck.

LBA dead duck?
 

Dead Duck, not.
To answer your first point about Manchester being 25 miles away.
Unfortunately most passengers have cars not planes and helicopters.
Yorkshire folk have been making the dire trek to MAN for many years and if you knew what you were talking about, you would know it is not easy.
Liverpool, why ?
East Midlands also can be a terrible journey.
Humberside, ok but it will not happen.
Doncaster ? Some pax will be lost to DSA but the choice of where to fly from is made by the passengers.
Why don’t Thomson make a massive increase in flights at DSA ?
Not enough pax of course.
They have tried to do something by closing the LBA base and time will tell if this has had any effect.
The weather, can you tell me what your diversion rate is compared with other airports?
Approaches over the city, this is unusual?
The rest of your comments are down the failure of successive Leeds and Bradford councils by allowing politics to come first instead of investment in the airport and infrastructure.
Airports create wealth.
I reckon PM of Jet2 knows the subject very well and he has not flinched from investing in LBA.
You say one airport has to go, so why have millions just been invested in creating another one?
LBA is here to stay whether it is the best location in the world or not.
WAWKRK

A300boy
 

Interesting to get an un-biased opinion from a person not living in the area and I understand your view.
Its obvious Manchester and Robin Hood have the space and runway length to attract any operator away from Leeds and if the passengers follow them I am sure your comments may be accurate.
Bristol and Cardiff must be a similar case with Bristol having all the problems that Leeds has and Cardiff the ideal location however which one is booming.
My previous employer operated into Leeds for many years with various types and they were never very happy operating the larger aircraft but since then Cat 2 and 3 is more the norm also aircraft performance has improved it is just a pity the runway and operational issues at Leeds have seemed to have had a low priority but maybe its not as easy as all us amateurs think to resolve them.
I still believe that Leeds has a future 2.8 milion passengers a year is not too bad and they are still rising.
I believe Thompsonfly have made a poor decision with regards to their Leeds operations but time will tell and they may rethink in the future.

Rainboe

The way you talk, you would think Leeds Bradford is just a grass strip. All the airport needs is the investment it deserves to bring facilities up to date and back in-line with other airports. You mentioned the local roads. This is not really a discussion for an aviation forum. It is something that must be addressed over the coming years at local and national level. North and North West Leeds is crying out for better road links and access to motorways.

Many problems you have mentioned could be relevant at many UK airports. The Department for Transport have stated that the M60 Orbital motorway for Manchester will be at choking point at the same time Manchester Airport is expected to be handling 40 million plus.

Every major city in Europe has an airport, Leeds is no different. Sheffield was the only major city in Europe without an airport until the likes of Doncaster Sheffield and the former City airport. What people fail to realise, is that it is people living in those cities that demand local services, not bureaucrats and aviation experts. I would put money on an American service starting from Leeds within a year of any runway improvements such as a starter extension. With flights to Dubai following shortly after.

Many things at the airport need addressing, but see what happens when they've been addressed.

Leodis

The question of whether the place is a 'dead duck' or not will be answered over the next few months. Ernst & Young are sending out their official documentation this week requesting formal bids for the airport. If nobody bids or the bids are so low that the councils are not inclined to sell, it would go some way to ratifying Rainboe's view of the world. If however there is interest from the airport management sector and sizeable bids are received, it would suggest a more positive view.

Personally, I wouldn't invest too much effort in trying to debate it now when the next few weeks and months will unequivocally answer the question one way or another. All I do know is that the phase1 report produced by Ernst & Young beteen July and September this year indicated that their informal discussions with the indutry led them to believe that (a) there would be significant interest and (b) a sizeable selling price was achievable. We shall have to see whether the industry puts its money where its mouth is when the time comes for the formal bid submission.

Leo, I think the way an airport links into the local transport infrastructure is important when decisions are taken on investment and upgrading. LBA is sited in possibly the worst corner of Leeds for access- it couldn't be further from motorway links. This whole part of the North, from Kingston to Liverpool, is blessed with a bewildering array of motorways. You only have to look at a countrywide map to see how sparse they are almost everywhere else. The airport is pretty ramshackle, with a poor runway with bizarre slopes, and serious local weather effects. I've done a CAT 1 limit go-around and a diversion to MAN (always basking in clear skies when Leeds is out). The apron extension is done, but I'm afraid the beef of the matter is the runway. Having a Harrier ski ramp at the end, leading to one of the most severe airfield edge precipices is not acceptable. If there's a runway, someone, one day, will run off the end- as has happened to a Tristar at Leeds. Do that off 14 and it will spoil your day. I don't believe in pouring money into dead projects, but unfortunately business and the Councils are seeing megabucks flashing before their eyes, and only want all they can get out of it.

So, as we are being persuaded gently it is to our benefit to be megataxed on air travel as it will somehow 'sort' global warming (ha-ha), quite missing the point it is yet another way for a grasping government to raid our pockets (= 'there are too many proles flying all over the place- let's tax them!'), money will be directed to the wrong resource. The location is inadequate. Trouble is, there doesn't seem to be any flat ground anywhere in the area!

Rainboe - do you want BRS to close for the same RSEA reasoning?

I agree that the runway IS an issue but the right buyer will sort out the problem. The investment in Cat 2/3 on 32 has done much to improve matters...the next works on 14 will make things better again.

The fact is people from the locality want to fly from LBA, they do not like the drive elsewhere - motorways may be alright but once you're on them its difficult to get off if everything grinds to a halt. The M1 & M62 regularly do. The locals that use LBA know the short-cuts and cut throughs to reach the airport. That said improved access will help..and there are plans for this.

You make a big play on govt moves to stop the prols flying....I'm not sure it will come to much - if it does you might be out of a job!

Rainboe, whilst I can agree with some of your reasoning some others are a little off the mark. LBA is thriving despite all these problems you mention, look elsewhere around the world. Do all airports have flat runways. Do none have local weather problems. Have you ever been at LBA when it was poking out of the top of low lying fog when all airports around it were in Cat 3 conditions? It does happen! Severe airfield edge percepices! Have you ever visited Luton?
The point is that LBA sits in the middle of a very large conurbation and the people in that conurbation seem quite happy to drive on non motorways to fly from there. Roughly 3 million a year.
So hey, lets leave LBA to the airlines that want to fly from there cos thats where the pax are.To those that want to go to DSA good luck, it may have a nice runway and good motorway access but fog is not uncommon there either and pax aren't as numerous on the doorstep so lets hope they are happy to use those motorways to get there.

You're right- while the demand is there, the airport will thrive. It is just a bit galling living in the allegedly wealthier south to see the profusion of airports up there, and the how poorly the south is served by local airports and the low investment in them. It's most confusing until you come to the realisation that the average northerner seems to travel away more- maybe something to do with lower property prices up north/ higher local authority housing meaning more disposable income. Maybe Labour's great move of Council resources to the North is showing through now.

Bilmey Rainboe - you've opened Pandora's box!

Let's not get into an N v S arguement.

The demand for LBA is there and will continue!

As a northerner that now works in the smoke - my view of the situation down here is the lack of airport provision in the south is down to the fact that fields like LHR & LGW shift so many pax and have such influenece (may be as a result of the BAA monopoly) that other fields have not developed. But add up all the figures, more people (UK indigines) fly from airports in the south than the north - so no bleading hearts about wealth, local authority housing and implied regional stereotypes please!

I believe that SOU was originally bought by BAA to put a lid on the place - however SOU has grown thanks to Flybe (the IT market has completely died there) and now NEW BAA is keen to keep SOU because they will be forced to divest themselves of their monopoly of London airports.

I can't believe that Greenham Common (my local) wasn't developed into a civilian field - it had many of the elements that Rainboe reckons LBA ought to have (runway, roads etc)!

Anyway as 682 says... the test of whether LBA is a dead duck or not is the sale.

Rainboe,

Looking at the plethora of motorways in our is missleading.
Most are only car parks.

Good point though about stopping the public from driving to greenfield sites, LBA pax dont need to do that.