BA staff walkout @ LHR
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I would like to remind everyone here that there is no such thing as an "illegal" strike. Everyone who works (with some exceptions) has the right to withdraw their labour in a time of dispute. The fact that a union hasn't organised it just makes it unofficial. There are some legal implications, admittedly, but
I'm given to understand that this walk-out was fairly unanimous (and from what other posters have said- well supported from other parts of BA) and consequently could be defined as spontaneous action because of a failure of the dispute process.
As for militancy...I would suggest that the numbers involved indicates some deep-set and long-term grievances, that haven't been dealt with or even acknowledged by the management.
As I believe I said before...these are ordinary people like you and me...to make them take this action suggests that circumstances have become intolerable.
Final three greens...I'm afraid that the unpleasant minority is no longer insignificant, I speak from experience. (so much so, that it is a now H&S requirement for companies to have protocols and procedures in place to protect those staff dealing with the public from abuse and violence) but we're getting off the thread here.
I hope that BA management see this as a wake up call...there is a lesson to be learnt here...the only way to ensure successful change is to engage in proper two-way dialogue with everyone concerned...other airlines have successfully changed to meet new circumstances, by doing just that.
IMHO the most successful companies are the ones that realise their staff are a resource not just assets.
I'm given to understand that this walk-out was fairly unanimous (and from what other posters have said- well supported from other parts of BA) and consequently could be defined as spontaneous action because of a failure of the dispute process.
As for militancy...I would suggest that the numbers involved indicates some deep-set and long-term grievances, that haven't been dealt with or even acknowledged by the management.
As I believe I said before...these are ordinary people like you and me...to make them take this action suggests that circumstances have become intolerable.
Final three greens...I'm afraid that the unpleasant minority is no longer insignificant, I speak from experience. (so much so, that it is a now H&S requirement for companies to have protocols and procedures in place to protect those staff dealing with the public from abuse and violence) but we're getting off the thread here.
I hope that BA management see this as a wake up call...there is a lesson to be learnt here...the only way to ensure successful change is to engage in proper two-way dialogue with everyone concerned...other airlines have successfully changed to meet new circumstances, by doing just that.
IMHO the most successful companies are the ones that realise their staff are a resource not just assets.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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"There are some legal implications admittedly..." says it all really. There is a framework for greviances to avoid what just happened.
It was a deliberate action designed to damage BA and demonstrate the power of militancy, nothing less and nothing more. The numbers in relation to the total company in fact seem not to bear out 'intolerable conditions' simply that some people want more, and in todays uncertain market that isn't always possible.
Militants very rarely want to see any other point of view than their own unfortunately, and their 'intolerable' is sometimes open to question. The fact that protocols exist to deal with unpleasant passengers indicates that things have changed and indeed protections are in place for the staff, management must have listened to impliment such a procedure.
Most staff are indeed an asset there is regretfully always a minority it can well do without and the listening is a two way process.
It was a deliberate action designed to damage BA and demonstrate the power of militancy, nothing less and nothing more. The numbers in relation to the total company in fact seem not to bear out 'intolerable conditions' simply that some people want more, and in todays uncertain market that isn't always possible.
Militants very rarely want to see any other point of view than their own unfortunately, and their 'intolerable' is sometimes open to question. The fact that protocols exist to deal with unpleasant passengers indicates that things have changed and indeed protections are in place for the staff, management must have listened to impliment such a procedure.
Most staff are indeed an asset there is regretfully always a minority it can well do without and the listening is a two way process.
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G Fiend says,
Spontaneity? - First day of the school holidays. All seems a little convenient!
I'm given to understand that this walk-out was fairly unanimous (and from what other posters have said- well supported from other parts of BA) and consequently could be defined as spontaneous action because of a failure of the dispute process.
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G Fiend
I didn't say insignificant, I said statistically insignificant. There is a big difference between the words.
If you are the person abused, the event is significant to you, but that does not mean that the total number of incidents are statistically significant compared to the huge nunber of pax who check in without problems. BTW, there is a difference between unpleasantness and abusive behaviour - the former is a fact of life for those in customer facing roles (I have served my time there too), the latter is unacceptable and should be dealt with firmly.
I make this point as a prelude to drawing your attention to the fact that 100% of the pax trying to check in during this dispute were affected by the wildcat action.
Thus your logic was completely muddled.
Final three greens...I'm afraid that the unpleasant minority is no longer insignificant
If you are the person abused, the event is significant to you, but that does not mean that the total number of incidents are statistically significant compared to the huge nunber of pax who check in without problems. BTW, there is a difference between unpleasantness and abusive behaviour - the former is a fact of life for those in customer facing roles (I have served my time there too), the latter is unacceptable and should be dealt with firmly.
I make this point as a prelude to drawing your attention to the fact that 100% of the pax trying to check in during this dispute were affected by the wildcat action.
Thus your logic was completely muddled.
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250 BA managers STILL sitting at home on full pay whilst they find new jobs.
Many BA managers and office employess simply reshuffled and renamed rather than genuine staffing cuts. A manager who is an acquaintance of mine actually boasted about this very fact.
Decisions to drastically cut back on frontline staff and product made by office based maanegment who do not have to deal with the fallout of customer disappointment.
Unrealistic ad camapigns promising more when in reality frontline staff and product have been whittled away to below the minimum our customers should reasonably expect.
Management refusing to enter negotiations with unions , resorting instead to enforcing more and more changes to working conditions at a time when the public are expecting (and rightfully so...) more and more for their ticket price.
Frontline staff , PARTICULARLY ground staff left to face our customers and deal with the consequences of the cutbacks made by people who have no idea of the realities of serving the public.
Decisions made by management whose flying experience is First Class Travel . Staff travellers don't have to face the endless queues at check-in , they have a dedicated check-in desk at LHR and LGW.
Cheering about empty flights in the crew centre at LHR with no thought to the disapponted , stressed out customers suffering in the terminals. Very heartless and tactless response.
Walking out on said customers by ground staff. Has greatly damaged our company , caused huge misery to many and jeopardised all of our jobs.
Welcome to the new BA. Frontline staff feeling bullied and undervalued. Frontline staff by their nature often go more than the extra mile for the airline and it's customers. In the past two years , it has become increasingly thankless and stressful as we deal with the fallout of customer disappointment and ever increasing stress and anxiety that customer's feel.
All that frontline staff do is to implement decisions made by people who have no contact with our customers yet feel qualified to make sweeping changes which they do not have to feel the impact of. They rely on us to keep smiling and get on with it whilst they work nine to five in the cosy little offices or "shared desks" and then go home each evening and weekend and get on with their lives. As was evident by their lack of presence this weekend.
Sadly , it is our wage payers , the customers who have had to pay for BA's inept management this weekend. It is they who suffered and they who we all have to work towards winning back. Ultimately we will all suffer at BA as more business is lost and customer loyalty vanishes becuase of this weekend. It's time for all BA employees to move forward now and work together , not against each other.
We will all have to work even harder to rebuild customer confidence. I'm pretty sure that all of the frontline staff will do just that , I only hope that our management will stop plundering from our ranks and allow us too offer the service we want to provide.
Many BA managers and office employess simply reshuffled and renamed rather than genuine staffing cuts. A manager who is an acquaintance of mine actually boasted about this very fact.
Decisions to drastically cut back on frontline staff and product made by office based maanegment who do not have to deal with the fallout of customer disappointment.
Unrealistic ad camapigns promising more when in reality frontline staff and product have been whittled away to below the minimum our customers should reasonably expect.
Management refusing to enter negotiations with unions , resorting instead to enforcing more and more changes to working conditions at a time when the public are expecting (and rightfully so...) more and more for their ticket price.
Frontline staff , PARTICULARLY ground staff left to face our customers and deal with the consequences of the cutbacks made by people who have no idea of the realities of serving the public.
Decisions made by management whose flying experience is First Class Travel . Staff travellers don't have to face the endless queues at check-in , they have a dedicated check-in desk at LHR and LGW.
Cheering about empty flights in the crew centre at LHR with no thought to the disapponted , stressed out customers suffering in the terminals. Very heartless and tactless response.
Walking out on said customers by ground staff. Has greatly damaged our company , caused huge misery to many and jeopardised all of our jobs.
Welcome to the new BA. Frontline staff feeling bullied and undervalued. Frontline staff by their nature often go more than the extra mile for the airline and it's customers. In the past two years , it has become increasingly thankless and stressful as we deal with the fallout of customer disappointment and ever increasing stress and anxiety that customer's feel.
All that frontline staff do is to implement decisions made by people who have no contact with our customers yet feel qualified to make sweeping changes which they do not have to feel the impact of. They rely on us to keep smiling and get on with it whilst they work nine to five in the cosy little offices or "shared desks" and then go home each evening and weekend and get on with their lives. As was evident by their lack of presence this weekend.
Sadly , it is our wage payers , the customers who have had to pay for BA's inept management this weekend. It is they who suffered and they who we all have to work towards winning back. Ultimately we will all suffer at BA as more business is lost and customer loyalty vanishes becuase of this weekend. It's time for all BA employees to move forward now and work together , not against each other.
We will all have to work even harder to rebuild customer confidence. I'm pretty sure that all of the frontline staff will do just that , I only hope that our management will stop plundering from our ranks and allow us too offer the service we want to provide.
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Paterbrat
Er, I think that you will find that the management has decided to implement the new computer system without agreement with the staff.
If one side is not interested in negotiation, what 'framework' do you think exists?
Several reports in the media have commented on the total lack of BA staff in T1 whilst the dispute was in progress - where were all the management? surely thay could have rounded up a couple of thousand from Waterworld and set about explaining the situation to the pax, sorting out hotels etc. Or did they all just go home?
There is a framework for greviances to avoid what just happened.
If one side is not interested in negotiation, what 'framework' do you think exists?
Several reports in the media have commented on the total lack of BA staff in T1 whilst the dispute was in progress - where were all the management? surely thay could have rounded up a couple of thousand from Waterworld and set about explaining the situation to the pax, sorting out hotels etc. Or did they all just go home?
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Paterbrat...I'm sorry old chap, but I think you missed the point of the legal implications bit...what I meant was that an unofficial strike has certain limits and restrictions on how they can be conducted and who can be involved.
As for militants, I think you'll find that most people have a similar opinion of militants as you...which is why I've been trying to say these are ordinary people with ordinary lives, hopes and fears. I think you should stop trying to demonise them.
Also old boy, I said people are a 'resource' not an 'asset'. A resource is something finite that a company cannot do without, an asset is an additional commodity.
Finally, paterbrat...HSE introduced the requirement, not BA
I ask the question again...What has so hacked these ordinary people off that they take such extreme action?
Final three greens...I left out the word statistically on purpose... after alll aren't there "lies, damn lies and statistics". But my point is still that incidents of abuse and violence all too common...so much so that HSE believe it is a work-place safety issue...So much so that it is my understanding that legislation is being drafted to make companies legally responsible for protecting their staff against such incidents.
However, I accept your point, perhaps I made a sweeping statement.
Maxflyer...the initial action came after a meeting, We don't know what was said at that meeting, but I very much doubt it was "Quick let's all walk-out, then I can lose the money that I've already paid out on child care".
There is much more to this dispute than we all know...Anti-ice and aeroflirt perhaps know more than us and have taken time to detail their opinions...perhaps we should read and reflect.
I would like to ask a question: can we judge an organisation's competence by the way they treat their staff? Is it indicative of the way they conduct business?
As for militants, I think you'll find that most people have a similar opinion of militants as you...which is why I've been trying to say these are ordinary people with ordinary lives, hopes and fears. I think you should stop trying to demonise them.
Also old boy, I said people are a 'resource' not an 'asset'. A resource is something finite that a company cannot do without, an asset is an additional commodity.
Finally, paterbrat...HSE introduced the requirement, not BA
I ask the question again...What has so hacked these ordinary people off that they take such extreme action?
Final three greens...I left out the word statistically on purpose... after alll aren't there "lies, damn lies and statistics". But my point is still that incidents of abuse and violence all too common...so much so that HSE believe it is a work-place safety issue...So much so that it is my understanding that legislation is being drafted to make companies legally responsible for protecting their staff against such incidents.
However, I accept your point, perhaps I made a sweeping statement.
Maxflyer...the initial action came after a meeting, We don't know what was said at that meeting, but I very much doubt it was "Quick let's all walk-out, then I can lose the money that I've already paid out on child care".
There is much more to this dispute than we all know...Anti-ice and aeroflirt perhaps know more than us and have taken time to detail their opinions...perhaps we should read and reflect.
I would like to ask a question: can we judge an organisation's competence by the way they treat their staff? Is it indicative of the way they conduct business?
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Check-in staff had a choice, Management had a choice, but the strike gave no choice to the passengers. You selfish bastards gave no options to my daughter who had to cancel the holiday I bought her as a reward for four years' study.
There were scores of families in tears outside T4 yesterday - I hope you strikers are feeling really proud of yourselves today. How do you sleep at nights?
If I didn't think strike action was always a bad thing before today - I sure do now..
There were scores of families in tears outside T4 yesterday - I hope you strikers are feeling really proud of yourselves today. How do you sleep at nights?
If I didn't think strike action was always a bad thing before today - I sure do now..
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Well Joyce - maybe if your terms and conditions were eroded beyond the point of acceptance , you would do the same.
Some of these staff who check people in 365 days of the year can't afford a mortgage , let alone 4 yrs of studies and a holiday to boot , so you are really not living in the same world as them.
You are therefore not in a position to compare.
Also - swearing is not allowed on this forum.
It's not the end of the world,so calm down dear.
These people are fighting to hold onto a reasonable standard of living for the rest of their careers/lives.
Don't blame the staff - blame the management who chose to ignore the situation developing
It was highly regretable that so many people were affected , but it is a big airline .These people were pushed beyond the limit.
Also If your daughter has been studying for 4 years, i doubt she will ever be in a low paid job and have to endure something like this.
Some of these staff who check people in 365 days of the year can't afford a mortgage , let alone 4 yrs of studies and a holiday to boot , so you are really not living in the same world as them.
You are therefore not in a position to compare.
Also - swearing is not allowed on this forum.
It's not the end of the world,so calm down dear.
These people are fighting to hold onto a reasonable standard of living for the rest of their careers/lives.
Don't blame the staff - blame the management who chose to ignore the situation developing
It was highly regretable that so many people were affected , but it is a big airline .These people were pushed beyond the limit.
Also If your daughter has been studying for 4 years, i doubt she will ever be in a low paid job and have to endure something like this.
Last edited by Anti-ice; 21st Jul 2003 at 20:32.
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G fiend
No, statistics do not lie, but sometimes humans use them to make points of debatable integrity by spinning the context.
Violence is not acceptable, I got threatened by a drunk pax at a major European airport two weeks ago, when he decided to push into the check in queue in front of me and I (foolishly) commented.
You might be interested to note that the check in agent accepted him without a word and then said to me "what can I do?." And he was on the flight too - at least I was a few rows away.
after alll aren't there "lies, damn lies and statistics".
Violence is not acceptable, I got threatened by a drunk pax at a major European airport two weeks ago, when he decided to push into the check in queue in front of me and I (foolishly) commented.
You might be interested to note that the check in agent accepted him without a word and then said to me "what can I do?." And he was on the flight too - at least I was a few rows away.
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Joyce Tick...
I'm sorry, but I agree with anti-ice here. Ground staff in the aviation industry have always been very badly paid, and they seem to be bearing the brunt of further cost-cutting exercises within BA particularly. If BA had an effective framework for resolving disputes, or even communicating with its staff, I don't think the dispute would have happened (FYI BA has been notorious within the industry for the way it treats its staff).
losing a holiday does not compare to fighting to keep a roof over your head. All the staff want is decent pay and conditions, not too much to ask is it?
Final three greens...
A rather too common story I'm afraid...If you had called the police then I doubt you would have had much joy from them either...
I wonder why the check-in responded in that way?...perhaps they felt they would get no support from their management?
I'm sorry, but I agree with anti-ice here. Ground staff in the aviation industry have always been very badly paid, and they seem to be bearing the brunt of further cost-cutting exercises within BA particularly. If BA had an effective framework for resolving disputes, or even communicating with its staff, I don't think the dispute would have happened (FYI BA has been notorious within the industry for the way it treats its staff).
losing a holiday does not compare to fighting to keep a roof over your head. All the staff want is decent pay and conditions, not too much to ask is it?
Final three greens...
A rather too common story I'm afraid...If you had called the police then I doubt you would have had much joy from them either...
I wonder why the check-in responded in that way?...perhaps they felt they would get no support from their management?
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G fiend
Outsourced check in service mate. Probably expedient to 'transfer' the problem away. There's not much profit in getting involved in this sort of problem I wouldn't have thought and as the airline involved was LCA, probably even more so.
When you have 90 mins between check in and boarding, who at the gate could know whether the pax was drunk at check in?
I may be doing a great disservice to the check in agent, but that's my cut, she may have flagged a comment on the check in system for all I know.
Outsourced check in service mate. Probably expedient to 'transfer' the problem away. There's not much profit in getting involved in this sort of problem I wouldn't have thought and as the airline involved was LCA, probably even more so.
When you have 90 mins between check in and boarding, who at the gate could know whether the pax was drunk at check in?
I may be doing a great disservice to the check in agent, but that's my cut, she may have flagged a comment on the check in system for all I know.
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re ground staff
Joyce Tick ? would you work for £8000 per year be expected to go home when its not busy then be told after an hour go home oh and by the way you will only gat paid for 1 hour that day,or maybe you turn up for work to be told you are working 16 hours today and you can only have 30 min break,at the end of the day the employer benifits in the long run,and they dont seem to understand many people in this world have to work just for the basics in life like FOOD, never mind holidays etc. Maybe a few people need to experience living on the bread line like many of us in the aviation industry do week in week out,and before anyone says get another job ,it isnt that easy anymore. So give them a break they are only trying to make life a little more enjoyable for them selves is that so wrong or is everyone who is slagging the BA staff off just selfish,i do feel sorry for the passengers affected but this is life deal with it. !!!!
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Dear Joyce ,
No doubt your daughter wears trainers by a large organisation which pays young children peanuts to work long hours.
Also , I'm sure that those "selfish bastards" have had some very sleepless nights recently. Most frontline staff at BA have at the moment. You have absolutley no idea how bad things are . We work for a company which bullies and lies and has a top heavy management structure.
To those who say "just walk". Sometimes that isn't an option if you have a wife and family to support. I'm sure you can appreciate that Joyce as you clearly and rightly love your own child very much and want only her happiness.
How would you feel if you had to cancel a family outing or watching a school sports day because YOUR employer had decided to call you back to make up for the hours you did not work earlier in the month , when you were sent home because it was quiet.
How would you feel when it was your child looking at you and crying and you did not know how to make them understand ?
You have every right to feel aggrieved at the disruption to your daughter's long planned trip, just as the ordinary workers have the right to feel aggrieved at the brutal erosion to their working conditions and lifestyle and the consequent knock-on effect this has on THEIR families.
They are doing what concerned parents do , they are fighting for the right to a decent family life.
No doubt your daughter wears trainers by a large organisation which pays young children peanuts to work long hours.
Also , I'm sure that those "selfish bastards" have had some very sleepless nights recently. Most frontline staff at BA have at the moment. You have absolutley no idea how bad things are . We work for a company which bullies and lies and has a top heavy management structure.
To those who say "just walk". Sometimes that isn't an option if you have a wife and family to support. I'm sure you can appreciate that Joyce as you clearly and rightly love your own child very much and want only her happiness.
How would you feel if you had to cancel a family outing or watching a school sports day because YOUR employer had decided to call you back to make up for the hours you did not work earlier in the month , when you were sent home because it was quiet.
How would you feel when it was your child looking at you and crying and you did not know how to make them understand ?
You have every right to feel aggrieved at the disruption to your daughter's long planned trip, just as the ordinary workers have the right to feel aggrieved at the brutal erosion to their working conditions and lifestyle and the consequent knock-on effect this has on THEIR families.
They are doing what concerned parents do , they are fighting for the right to a decent family life.
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Good luck to all the people within B.A who are finally standing up for their own rights whatever your position in B.A and apologies to the customers affected.To all the other operators,who i am sure are going to suffer the same problems in the near future,i suggest if you want to avoid such problems listen to your staff and get rid of all those over paid under worked managers e.t.c (B.A is a perfect example of empire building).
JetII im with you and probably many others on this one....
JetII im with you and probably many others on this one....
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Foxiboy Thats life so deal with it!!!! great attitude. Shouldn't we be taking the middle ground here.
Perhaps the ground staff do have a point about being underpaid, undervalued etc etc but should they walk out in the way that they did. Surely it would have been better for them to negotiate. Now many have posted this was not possible. If not then why not officially strike, give the airline notice so they can try and provide a service to all those stranded pax and also perhaps media (optimistic here) could have informed jo public about issues, creating maybe a bit of public sympathy. Don't beleive they went about this the right way!!
£8,000 is not a good salary. Are you sure this is what they get paid? find it a little hard to beleive. Yes food on table and mortgage are higher priorities than a holiday but someone might have been saving up for that holdiday for 20years and now it has gone down the drain. Wonder how you would feel if it happened to you. Quick note on student. May have a better chance of getting a decent salary but will probably come out with 15000-20000 debt, before thinking about mortage etc
Senior Management should have had the balls to speak to the public and face the barrage of criticism! would not have been pleasant but atleast they would have got some respect.
Today things are tougher everywhere. Management should bot get blamed for everything. Always two sides to the story and before you say it no I am not one of them although I am in the industry and had a 0.9% pay increase after 9/11 and 2.6% this year. Real terms my salary has dropped but I am lucky to still be in the industry when a lot of my colleagues are being made redundant! When required I stay after my working hours and don't get overtime.
Perhaps the ground staff do have a point about being underpaid, undervalued etc etc but should they walk out in the way that they did. Surely it would have been better for them to negotiate. Now many have posted this was not possible. If not then why not officially strike, give the airline notice so they can try and provide a service to all those stranded pax and also perhaps media (optimistic here) could have informed jo public about issues, creating maybe a bit of public sympathy. Don't beleive they went about this the right way!!
£8,000 is not a good salary. Are you sure this is what they get paid? find it a little hard to beleive. Yes food on table and mortgage are higher priorities than a holiday but someone might have been saving up for that holdiday for 20years and now it has gone down the drain. Wonder how you would feel if it happened to you. Quick note on student. May have a better chance of getting a decent salary but will probably come out with 15000-20000 debt, before thinking about mortage etc
Senior Management should have had the balls to speak to the public and face the barrage of criticism! would not have been pleasant but atleast they would have got some respect.
Today things are tougher everywhere. Management should bot get blamed for everything. Always two sides to the story and before you say it no I am not one of them although I am in the industry and had a 0.9% pay increase after 9/11 and 2.6% this year. Real terms my salary has dropped but I am lucky to still be in the industry when a lot of my colleagues are being made redundant! When required I stay after my working hours and don't get overtime.
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welsh viking
I agree with your last posting entirely...
I am not arguing the reason for the walk out but the way it was executed...illegal ad hoc disputes are not allowed and should not be tollerated
I am discusted at the endemic selfshiness of my fellow collegues in whichever department they happen to work
i am sure we will survive this latest drama and lessons will be learned by both sides and this wawe of destructive attitude will end and solutions will be found....but looking at the world today perhaps I am naive and living in a fantasy world....the new concept to destroyand rebuild better is not what I was brought up to believe in...
Good luck to ALL of us.
I agree with your last posting entirely...
I am not arguing the reason for the walk out but the way it was executed...illegal ad hoc disputes are not allowed and should not be tollerated
I am discusted at the endemic selfshiness of my fellow collegues in whichever department they happen to work
i am sure we will survive this latest drama and lessons will be learned by both sides and this wawe of destructive attitude will end and solutions will be found....but looking at the world today perhaps I am naive and living in a fantasy world....the new concept to destroyand rebuild better is not what I was brought up to believe in...
Good luck to ALL of us.
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welsh viking
i know a few people who earn this amount each month not only at ba but working in other areas of the industry,esp in the the charter airline side of it many new crew only start off wiyh this amount ,try making ends meet when some peoples take home can be as little as £600 per month.
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21st July;
"Raquel Milgram, who has been at the airport with her three young children and no luggage since Saturday"
Disgusting. I hope she sues BA for thousands.
"However further industrial action may be announced by unions."
"Raquel Milgram, who has been at the airport with her three young children and no luggage since Saturday"
Disgusting. I hope she sues BA for thousands.
"However further industrial action may be announced by unions."