Ecojet? The smell of kerosene no longer?
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 202
Likes: 6
From: Somerset
Unless there is a massive breakthrough in battery technology, battery powered aircraft will never be viable for other than short hops - simply too much mass in the needed batteries. Similarly, the difficulties with H2 storage mean it's unlikely to ever be viable for other than short range operations.
Various methods of creating carbon neutral synthetic kerosene (e.g. biofuels) hold far more long term promise (my personal favorite is using algae as a feedstock for biofuels - raising algae can use existing waste products and takes only a small fraction of the area that corn/soy/etc. based biofuels require). All this stuff with batteries and H2 for anything other than short range is mainly political posturing and/or investment cons.
Various methods of creating carbon neutral synthetic kerosene (e.g. biofuels) hold far more long term promise (my personal favorite is using algae as a feedstock for biofuels - raising algae can use existing waste products and takes only a small fraction of the area that corn/soy/etc. based biofuels require). All this stuff with batteries and H2 for anything other than short range is mainly political posturing and/or investment cons.
Hydrogen can now be created at a cost comparable to diesel/petrol but I don't know how practical the magnesium paste is in cost or mass production terms.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 817
Likes: 115
From: Cardiff
It is clearly more difficult to start an airline in the UK than it was 30 years ago. Whilst this project is clearly well funded, unlike many projects discussed on these boards, does that in itself guarantee success?
Two operations have become a problem, starting on a ‘B’ licence and operating turboprops.
Pre EasyJet, which decided on a different startup model, the route into airline ownership for a small amount of capital was the ‘B’ licence and then grow from there. When Air Passenger Duty was introduced, the sub 20 seat market was exempt, a situation that hasn’t continued unless you operate under a PSO.
Turboprops still have a niche which as I see it is as a regional feeder for network carriers or connecting remote communities.
The last attempt at UK wide point to point services, Flybe, failed spectacularly. Now many will point to management failings, jet leases etc. but the bottom line is that you can’t offer fares operating turboprops that compete with the low cost airlines.
I would encourage potential airline CEOs to sit down with a blank piece of paper and decide where their future airline sits on the convenience/cost line. Convenience being the level of service you offer such as service frequency, level of onboard service, free ancillaries. As you offer less convenience you move towards lower cost.
To bring us back to the thread, the questions I have are
1) Can a new turboprop operator be successful?
2) Low emissions has to be seen as a convenience because it will come with a higher cost. Will passengers be prepared to pay that higher cost?
Two operations have become a problem, starting on a ‘B’ licence and operating turboprops.
Pre EasyJet, which decided on a different startup model, the route into airline ownership for a small amount of capital was the ‘B’ licence and then grow from there. When Air Passenger Duty was introduced, the sub 20 seat market was exempt, a situation that hasn’t continued unless you operate under a PSO.
Turboprops still have a niche which as I see it is as a regional feeder for network carriers or connecting remote communities.
The last attempt at UK wide point to point services, Flybe, failed spectacularly. Now many will point to management failings, jet leases etc. but the bottom line is that you can’t offer fares operating turboprops that compete with the low cost airlines.
I would encourage potential airline CEOs to sit down with a blank piece of paper and decide where their future airline sits on the convenience/cost line. Convenience being the level of service you offer such as service frequency, level of onboard service, free ancillaries. As you offer less convenience you move towards lower cost.
To bring us back to the thread, the questions I have are
1) Can a new turboprop operator be successful?
2) Low emissions has to be seen as a convenience because it will come with a higher cost. Will passengers be prepared to pay that higher cost?
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,832
Likes: 312
From: UK
These guys are putting out some pretty desperate-sounding pilot recruitment adverts. How can you be recruiting pilots when you haven't even applied for an Operating Licence with the CAA and there's no visibility of any aircraft coming? With current problems in the ATR market, operators struggling to get delivery of committed aircraft and 72s apparently still in demand, where are the aircraft coming from? Surely if they can start to answer some of these questions, prospective pilots and employees might take it rather more seriously ....
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 368
Likes: 21
From: North of the M4
These guys are putting out some pretty desperate-sounding pilot recruitment adverts. How can you be recruiting pilots when you haven't even applied for an Operating Licence with the CAA and there's no visibility of any aircraft coming? With current problems in the ATR market, operators struggling to get delivery of committed aircraft and 72s apparently still in demand, where are the aircraft coming from? Surely if they can start to answer some of these questions, prospective pilots and employees might take it rather more seriously ....
As has been pointed out, the only plausible aircraft for high frequency SH domestic flights are the ATR and the ERJ145. When these 145 aircraft were first bought in significant numbers by the Airlines of Britain group (BRAL) they were thrown at all sorts of routes from MAN - BHD to BHX - MXP, BHX - STR etc and many were put on the former BA Regional (737/A320) routes. Some of these routes have still not been taken on by the locos. I never got the arguments put forward by Flybe that the 145's were an economic disaster (maybe more like Flybe were up to their necks in E190 debts). What happened to all those routes that BRAL / BA con used to do out of BHX for instance? They haven't all gone to the locos and there must still be some low hanging fruit ready to be picked by a 145. Its just a shame that Loganair doesn't have the resources / crews to deploy them more effectively at the moment.
One thing is for sure, the new boss of Logan will be well aware of all this history.
Last edited by biddedout; 28th April 2024 at 15:50.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 184
Likes: 25
From: hector's house
The BRAL routes were not supported particularly well by BA who controlled the ticket sales and unfortunately, the available seat mile cost per kg of fuel for a regional jet with a 60% load factor is not good when compared to a full A320/B737. If the airline wanted to offer the high frequency rotations demanded by business travellers like 3 departures per destination per day, the fare had to be high enough to offset the low load factor and it became a bit of a Catch 22.
Low Cost Airlines avoid this by filling the aircraft, but often don't offer the high frequency and are like any budget business in that they pile them high and sell them cheap.
Low Cost Airlines avoid this by filling the aircraft, but often don't offer the high frequency and are like any budget business in that they pile them high and sell them cheap.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 63
From: On the road
These guys are putting out some pretty desperate-sounding pilot recruitment adverts. How can you be recruiting pilots when you haven't even applied for an Operating Licence with the CAA and there's no visibility of any aircraft coming? With current problems in the ATR market, operators struggling to get delivery of committed aircraft and 72s apparently still in demand, where are the aircraft coming from? Surely if they can start to answer some of these questions, prospective pilots and employees might take it rather more seriously ....
Joined: Oct 2021
Posts: 19
Likes: 3
From: Moscow
I hope this start up is a success to offer the consumer more choice/competition as Eastern is a joke and with Logan retreating to core business there's an opportunity.
However... who's applying for jobs? UK Pilot Market is buoyant. Ex Flybe TP drivers both LHS and RHS are now earning double what they're offering on 777/787 flying across the globe for DHL/Virgin/BA and others joined Norse, Ryanair and Jet2. Other regionals are haemorrhaging Pilots to more career enhancing options. I can see newly qualified pilots applying but experienced Captains? Would you leave Logan for this if you are an ATR Scottish based skipper?
However... who's applying for jobs? UK Pilot Market is buoyant. Ex Flybe TP drivers both LHS and RHS are now earning double what they're offering on 777/787 flying across the globe for DHL/Virgin/BA and others joined Norse, Ryanair and Jet2. Other regionals are haemorrhaging Pilots to more career enhancing options. I can see newly qualified pilots applying but experienced Captains? Would you leave Logan for this if you are an ATR Scottish based skipper?
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,832
Likes: 312
From: UK
I think that's very much the point I had in mind. If you are an ATR skipper at an established UK airline, you'll leave to go to DHL, Jet2, BA or somewhere else - you are unlikely to trade away job security to join a new start-up in the same seat on an ATR. The ex-Flybe Q400 pilots are pretty much all working elsewhere now, so there's no pool there to tap. It probably explains why their job adverts are sounding rather desperate.
It's just very strange to have no Operating Licence application in and published by the CAA. The wheels of licensing don't start to turn until you make that application and pay the fees. It was mentioned that they had applied for Part-CAMO but you can do that without being an airline. To be an airline, you need an AOC and an Operating Licence as well. Oh, and you need some aircraft too!!
It's just very strange to have no Operating Licence application in and published by the CAA. The wheels of licensing don't start to turn until you make that application and pay the fees. It was mentioned that they had applied for Part-CAMO but you can do that without being an airline. To be an airline, you need an AOC and an Operating Licence as well. Oh, and you need some aircraft too!!
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,832
Likes: 312
From: UK
Six weeks on, no tangible news and another social media update saying basically nothing more than “we’re still here” today. If all of the people joining are on some payroll, this must be burning a huge hole in someone’s pocket by now. No Operating Licence application, apparently no slots requested anywhere …
These guys would do well to remember the examples of others such as AV8 Air - burning so much cash in the pre-start phase that you can’t meet the CAA financial fitness requirements (what the CAA demand, not what you think they might ask for) as your funding available is dropping at the precise time you need to hit a target.
These guys would do well to remember the examples of others such as AV8 Air - burning so much cash in the pre-start phase that you can’t meet the CAA financial fitness requirements (what the CAA demand, not what you think they might ask for) as your funding available is dropping at the precise time you need to hit a target.
Joined: Feb 2024
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 523
Likes: 258
From: Aylesbury
Six weeks on, no tangible news and another social media update saying basically nothing more than “we’re still here” today. If all of the people joining are on some payroll, this must be burning a huge hole in someone’s pocket by now. No Operating Licence application, apparently no slots requested anywhere …
These guys would do well to remember the examples of others such as AV8 Air - burning so much cash in the pre-start phase that you can’t meet the CAA financial fitness requirements (what the CAA demand, not what you think they might ask for) as your funding available is dropping at the precise time you need to hit a target.
These guys would do well to remember the examples of others such as AV8 Air - burning so much cash in the pre-start phase that you can’t meet the CAA financial fitness requirements (what the CAA demand, not what you think they might ask for) as your funding available is dropping at the precise time you need to hit a target.
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,832
Likes: 312
From: UK
You can request (and if granted, hold) slots on a provisional basis pending grant of an OL. You do need a designator, for which you have to pay a fee, to request and hold slots though. You also need to pay a fee with your OL application…
They’ve been at this for nearly a year.
Brave people indeed launching with ATRs given the current problems afflicting virtually everyone else operating them right now. The only thing I did wonder is if they are going to buy part or all of another UK operator already with ATRs in its fleet that don’t seem to have very much work.
They’ve been at this for nearly a year.
Brave people indeed launching with ATRs given the current problems afflicting virtually everyone else operating them right now. The only thing I did wonder is if they are going to buy part or all of another UK operator already with ATRs in its fleet that don’t seem to have very much work.
Joined: Feb 2024
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 523
Likes: 258
From: Aylesbury
That does strike me as somewhat surprising then - their management seem to have been fairly involved at EDI lately but that means very little without slots.
I assume you're referring to Loganair - whose ATRs seem to be averaging 4 daily sectors as per a cursory glance at FR24. That said, Eastern's ATR fleet doesn't seem to be particularly culpable for its latest woes.
I assume you're referring to Loganair - whose ATRs seem to be averaging 4 daily sectors as per a cursory glance at FR24. That said, Eastern's ATR fleet doesn't seem to be particularly culpable for its latest woes.
Joined: Feb 2024
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 523
Likes: 258
From: Aylesbury
Vince said "we should be in the air by the end of this year" at the Restore Nature Now march this weekend. Pushed back from this summer or just allowing for all eventualities? He also mentioned a 90-seat capacity which only brings to mind the E175 unless it was a slip of the tongue - I can't see a hydrogen refit for that type being available any time soon.
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,832
Likes: 312
From: UK
There was another load of meaningless drivel out the other day. It is almost as if they are trying to outdo Global Airlines on the meaningless-drivel-to-disguise-no-action front.
If availability of ATR aircraft is a major issue - as I suspect it may be - then a change of start-up aircraft type may explain the delays. But an E175 will make even less sense on their initial EDI-MAN and SOU routes if so.
If availability of ATR aircraft is a major issue - as I suspect it may be - then a change of start-up aircraft type may explain the delays. But an E175 will make even less sense on their initial EDI-MAN and SOU routes if so.
Joined: Feb 2024
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 523
Likes: 258
From: Aylesbury
Tangible progress now with crew having started at Ecojet in the last few days. I wonder whether they are planning to initially wet-lease their fleet out to other ATR operators, whose fortunes are hardly likely to improve any time soon - the summer is disappearing quickly and even if we assumed a trouble-free AOC process there probably isn't enough time for a commercial run-up prior to launching ops for S24..?