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BA Euroflyer

Old 16th Sep 2023, 08:15
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Originally Posted by cavokblues
Maybe I'm too cynical with all things IAG these days but I'm incredibly sceptical they would have persisted with a loss making Gatwick operation for 15 years.....!
in all big operations allocating profits and costs is an interesting exercise and can give you whatever answer you want (see the Virgin empire)

BA have never liked Gatwick in their life - they operate there grudgingly. Always have done, always will do
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Old 17th Sep 2023, 14:12
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Night stops

Hello everybody

Iíve just applied on the website and done the test. My missus is cabin crew in heathrow and the night stops seem the most appealing part. She does the odd there and back. Iíve looked at the locations in garwick and thereís the Caribbean, America. So my question is is there many chances for night stops in euroflyer?
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Old 18th Sep 2023, 07:20
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
in all big operations allocating profits and costs is an interesting exercise and can give you whatever answer you want (see the Virgin empire)

BA have never liked Gatwick in their life - they operate there grudgingly. Always have done, always will do
​​​​​

Attitudes may be changing especially if Gatwick gets there Northern runway into use before a Heathrow gets 3rd runway which is looking more likely at the moment. Sean Doyle said at the last results meeting that Gatwick was an important gateway for BA especially with the Northern runway plans.

I really donít believe BA would have returned short haul tomLGW if it didnít have the potential to work.

BA Long haul from Gatwick has good yields and makes money. Whatever the official line may have been in the past short haul made money in the summer but not in the winter. They are trying to address seasonality by ensuring winter routes are optimised. Also some staff contracts allow for less work in the winter months. However as we know most airlines operating short haul in the European winter months lose money. The trick is to make enough money in the summer season to offset those losses.

By the end of the year BA Euroflyer will have 21 aircraft and by next summer 24 plus. To carry nearly 4 million passengers on short haul from March 2022 to August 2022 isnít too bad and shows demand is there. BA long haul is carrying about 2 million a year to and from Gatwick so altogether a healthy total.

The fleet started at 3 aircraft and is now at 15 active plus two undergoing maintenance and one being repaired in Marrakech after being hit with a ground handler vechicle.

I expect all the 11 BA A321ceo aircraft to be at Gatwick by the end of the winter season plus the original 10 A320 G- GATx aircraft. It will be interesting to see which other aircraft switch over in Summer 2024.

Hopefully over the winter maintenance and engineering capacity issues will ease for BA generally along with pilot training capacity to have less need next year to wet lease aircraft. We shall see.
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Old 18th Sep 2023, 09:16
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I’ve looked at the locations in garwick and there’s the Caribbean, America
They are long-haul BA Mainline destinations, and are not flown by Euroflyer
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Old 18th Sep 2023, 15:36
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Originally Posted by Wycombe
They are long-haul BA Mainline destinations, and are not flown by Euroflyer
And a first post containing "garwick" rather than Gatwick 🤔
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Old 18th Sep 2023, 16:08
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Originally Posted by vectisman
​​​​​I really donít believe BA would have returned short haul to LGW if it didnít have the potential to work.....isnít too bad and shows demand is there.
I hope you're on the PR payroll
I don't believe anyone ever suggested that demand wasn't there, BA could fill a lot more aircraft and have done so previously, but they almost always lost money or were inconsistently in the black. I've been a customer of BA LGW since 1993! Used to love the place.
What they could never do was what easyJet do which was remain consistently profitable in that market. BA Euroflyer didn't source those aircraft or crews themselves, they came via the mothership, and BA mainline will be expecting to see a proper ROI on the use of those 21 ex BA airframes. Time and time again there will be strong argument that the LGW fleet could be better deployed elsewhere. Those younger A321s could have stayed at LHR and helped support the core network carrier operation, instead LHR is using ex BMI aircraft which are a relatively poor customer experience. So giving those A321s to LGW is going to have to show some a decent ROI for any future expansion. This is the first time I can recall they've prioritised LGW over LHR, in that the unloved BMI fleet is currently falling apart flying out of LHR alongside long haul being fed by the oldest and smallest Airbus narrow bodies! That's a Helluva change! Time will tell.



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Old 18th Sep 2023, 19:31
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Yes, but Heathrow will continue to receive the new A320neos and A321Neos. The BMI A320s will continue to disappear. The A319s are being kept longer to maintain frequencies on certain key business routes
where demand for business travel is now less than previously including some transfers from Europe to long haul. Hopefully that will continue to improve over time.
Leisure travel has come back very quickly.
Easyjet does tend to make a loss over the winter months but makes excellent summer profits. Winter loss 2022/2023 £411 million. October to March.
The ex BMI fleet out of Heathrow is a very small part of the total LHR Short haul fleet. The G-DBCx A319 series are actually several years younger than the original BA A319s.
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Old 18th Sep 2023, 21:28
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A few things to say here:

BA did, once upon a time, love Gatwick. The transfer of the African and South American services back in the late 90s which lasted broadly until 9/11 being the main point in time. Admittedly it was a long time ago and it got binned pretty quickly but I don't think you can argue it was anything other than a coherent attempt to grow Gatwick as a complementary hub to Heathrow with its own "sphere of interest" - a phrase that has particular meaning going further back in history at Gatwick.

There is a very good reason why the fleet has been arranged as it has, with the remaining 321ceos sent to Gatwick. That's Heathrow's charges. A 321ceo has a noise margin of 14.1 EPNdB which means that it falls into the Super High charging category at Heathrow. A 321neo has a noise margin of 26.2 which means it falls into the Super Low category. One is charged at £3514 per movement and the other at £772 per movement (a movement being either a take-off or a landing). Over a typical LHR S/H five-sector aircraft day x 11 months a year (allowing for maintenance downtime etc) then that's £4.5 million per aircraft in extra LHR charges to fly a 321ceo versus a 321neo. I'm sure that's why Aer Lingus are putting a 320neo on Cork and Shannon this winter as well. For comparison, a 319ceo has a noise margin of 20.1 EPNdB which means it squeaks into the Base category, and the landing fees for a 319ceo are a mere £3.5 million per aircraft per year less than the 321ceo.

So if you have leisure routes at Gatwick where you've a chance of filling the extra seats on the 321ceo and the aircraft is going nowhere near Heathrow in the process, that's exactly what you do - and exactly what they have done. Someone has their head screwed on properly.

To pick up Vectisman's comments, easyJet's summer profits are less than excellent. Far less. They announced a Q3 profit (April to June) of £203m which was trumpeted as the best ever. However, that includes a stated £49m profit from easyJet Holidays, which wasn't around at the time of the previous record. So either the underlying performance of the airline isn't as good as it was, or (more likely) there is a heap of internal transfer pricing going on between airline and holiday company so Holidays is shown to be a success and making a heap of money - when, in reality, had easyJet sold the same air seat to one of the dynamic packagers, they'd probably have achieved the same bottom line. It's hard to be sure, but the numbers were not fantastic. One look at the share price - languishing in the doldrums - will tell you all the market thinks about it.




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Old 19th Sep 2023, 17:12
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Originally Posted by Bobby Scruggs
Hello everybody

Iíve just applied on the website and done the test. My missus is cabin crew in heathrow and the night stops seem the most appealing part. She does the odd there and back. Iíve looked at the locations in garwick and thereís the Caribbean, America. So my question is is there many chances for night stops in euroflyer?
nope, no planned night stops.
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Old 19th Sep 2023, 21:00
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Originally Posted by cavokblues
Maybe I'm too cynical with all things IAG these days but I'm incredibly sceptical they would have persisted with a loss making Gatwick operation for 15 years.....!
The short haul network around 2008-2010 was appalling absolutely no direction or common sense adding route such as DRS, POZ, NQY etc made no sense this off the back of BA having first dibs on GB Airways and letting EZY buy them and giving them substantial growth at LGW.

Colm Lacey came in and the route network started making much more sense focusing on the typical SH leisure destinations.

2012 (ish) each passenger lost BA in the region of £20 per head on a short haul.

Over the years between 2012 and 2019 the SH operation became much better, better network better destinations and frequencies. Also best on time performance of any airline at LGW in 2019.

Many changes were made during these years to reduce costs and drive up revenue which all worked well, yes it’s been a slog but pre covid the BA SH operation on its own was profitable and had covid not happened I have no reason to believe this wouldn’t have continued.

I would say the successes so far of EF is somewhere in the middle of expectations. I am not party to information on yields which is, of course, key but Loads are very very healthy. Especially in the club cabins, often the 321s have big club cabins 40+ and rare you see anything less than 6 rows in club, normally full.

operationally they are naive with regular poor decision making and communication, how much of this is lack of experience or something else I don’t know.

crew retention has been a huge issue for EF it’s improved but still not where I’m sure they would want it to be.

the reliability of the fleet has been poor especially the 321s, I appreciate aircraft only make money with they fly but EF need to improve their operational resilience be it with available crew and also the ability to roll the fleet better and even have some sort of spare aircraft during peak times if at all possible (at a cost I appreciate) for IROPS.

Of course there are avios redemptions on the SH network but it’s not fair to suggest the large club cabins are because of this vast majority of club pax are paying their way and one thing that is evident post covid is those few club seats that are empty are often sold as airport upgrades, in greater number than pre covid.

club gives a differential at LGW and the lounges are very popular with passengers.

being all things to all people is not ideal and very hard to get right.

EF in its current guise I believe will work well moving forwards, as long as crew retention is addressed, along side the operational resilience and better decision making in IROPS.

one area of added complexity now with EF is the inability to lean on mainline for crew and aircraft. Now almost all LGW aircraft are on the EF AOC there is no way for BA to plug any crew ping gaps as was the case pre covid or even when EF was in its infancy nor can BA send down 320s when required this has added to the lack of operational resilience.

but I’m sure in time these issues will be ironed out as long as EF is honest with itself.

In the medium term however BA/EF/IAG need to address the fleet (surely they must have a plan, all businesses have medium and long term plans) aged 320/321s for a quasi LCC isn’t really fit for purpose.

IAG have their max order but not sure it’s been said where these will go I’ve heard rumours of VY as they are seen as valuable to the group but they are taking deliveries of NEOs so not sure.
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Old 20th Sep 2023, 09:43
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Originally Posted by 772
crew retention has been a huge issue for EF itís improved but still not where Iím sure they would want it to be.


EF in its current guise I believe will work well moving forwards, as long as crew retention is addressed.
Our biggest issue since Day 1, which unfortunately despite promise after promise, doesnít appear to be changing.
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Old 20th Sep 2023, 11:52
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"2012 (ish) each passenger lost BA in the region of £20 per head on a short haul."

Creative accounting at its best - like the years when BA claimed they lost money on ABZ-LHR with prices that were higher than some transatlantic fares - and there were a LOT of business passengers and turn up and go seats sold on those ABZ flights - which were always packed
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Old 20th Sep 2023, 12:04
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Originally Posted by USERNAME_
Our biggest issue since Day 1, which unfortunately despite promise after promise, doesnít appear to be changing.
Has their been no comments from management on increasing pay or improving rosters for both CC and FC?

Also, is their any substantial evidence / information on the rumours of Jet2/BA purchasing of one purchasing the other?
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Old 20th Sep 2023, 12:20
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
"2012 (ish) each passenger lost BA in the region of £20 per head on a short haul."

Creative accounting at its best - like the years when BA claimed they lost money on ABZ-LHR with prices that were higher than some transatlantic fares - and there were a LOT of business passengers and turn up and go seats sold on those ABZ flights - which were always packed
Quite.

When ABZ was at LGW is had huge premium feed from IAH
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Old 20th Sep 2023, 12:56
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It was more that like BMI, the short haul leg got the short straw as most of the revenue went against the long haul leg. Same reason BA used to justify dropping BFS-LHR back in the day. Is Finance driving or following the strategy? The allocation of costs was also contentious, partly why EUROFLYER needs to be arms length from Waterworld.
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