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BA Euroflyer

Old 17th Apr 2023, 08:09
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Originally Posted by ClearedToNowhere
GATR staying in Antalya overnight after yet another flight deck smoke emergency. We must be setting some sort of record at this point, unfortunately.
You seem determined to report any negative event re Euroflyer. I wonder what agenda you have?
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Old 17th Apr 2023, 11:18
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Originally Posted by vectisman
You seem determined to report any negative event re Euroflyer. I wonder what agenda you have?
No agenda, I work for EFW. Just not much positivity to report right now.
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Old 17th Apr 2023, 11:53
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Originally Posted by ClearedToNowhere
No agenda, I work for EFW. Just not much positivity to report right now.
Agreed. But just report nothing instead.

Although we would all love an unscheduled nightstop in AYT right now, lucky crew 😂
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Old 17th Apr 2023, 14:04
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Originally Posted by vectisman
You seem determined to report any negative event re Euroflyer. I wonder what agenda you have?
What's yours? Almost every post from you is about how marvellous BA at LGW is.
There's legitimate business reasons why this whole is idea is a bad one and that should be openly discussed. I'd love for BA to do well outside of LHR but to my mind, this concept has serious flaws. Any other airline who has a lower cost business unit on a separate certificate operating the same aircraft as mainline has a clear and apparent branding differential.
Air Canada has Rouge, Iberia has Iberia Express. But we all know BA do things the complex and convoluted special BA way, so they have BA aircraft in BA colours operating BA flights with former BA pilots and newbie cabin crew operating on a different AOC. It's like the AML experiment all over again.... IMHO unless they go single cabin and invest for growth with new equipment and a clear differential like go, it will ultimately fail. To me it's a contradiction to be British Airways and lower cost because the finance team will likely continue to try and attribute wider BA costs to Euroflyer because they're really just BA except they're pretending not to be. It's just Chinese Walls and they tend not to last in business. I'll also bet you that there's an internal conversation going on about those G-EUX* A321s going back to LHR where they can be used to support the core business of feeding long haul and being swapped out for the oldest A320s instead.
By comparison easyJet kept it very simple and are many times the size of BA at Gatwick. If only there was a successful template BA could follow.....but being BA they feel they need to offer Club and lounges.
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Old 17th Apr 2023, 15:15
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I think if they thought the A321s were better suited to LHR, they would’ve kept them there. It’s too much aircraft for the majority of sectors out of LHR (without killing yield) and they have ample A321NEOs to cover those that do need the capacity.

On the other hand, it’s easy to fill A321s to Turkey, Spain and Greece in the summer.

As for Euroflyer, they’re not trying to be different. It’s just a fudge to allow worse staff T&Cs. The customer isn’t meant to notice a difference. They’ll never have enough slots to have a full operation at LHR so they’ll always be at Gatwick. If they can make that operation cheaper in any way, they will.

Can’t disagree with the general consensus on customer experience with BA, but if there’s one thing they know how to do, it’s make money.
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Old 18th Apr 2023, 07:13
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Originally Posted by Vokes55
I think if they thought the A321s were better suited to LHR, they would’ve kept them there. It’s too much aircraft for the majority of sectors out of LHR (without killing yield) and they have ample A321NEOs to cover those that do need the capacity.

On the other hand, it’s easy to fill A321s to Turkey, Spain and Greece in the summer.

As for Euroflyer, they’re not trying to be different. It’s just a fudge to allow worse staff T&Cs. The customer isn’t meant to notice a difference. They’ll never have enough slots to have a full operation at LHR so they’ll always be at Gatwick. If they can make that operation cheaper in any way, they will.

Can’t disagree with the general consensus on customer experience with BA, but if there’s one thing they know how to do, it’s make money.
It’s a bit of fine line - on one hand they are trying to shout at investors to say that Gatwick is a ‘low cost operation’, whilst telling customers its no different to what you get at Heathrow.
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Old 18th Apr 2023, 08:23
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From all that I hear, the Club Europe offer at Gatwick is one of the aspects working very well. The size of the Club cabins is capped because of cabin crew availability but the load factor up front sounds to be good, and this is obviously a key differentiator against easyJet and others on the routes that Euroflyer is operating. If they can grow and sustain the cabin crew numbers (a whole other debate!) then it sounds like there is more potential for the Club cabins to grow too.

I was told the main reason that the G-EUX* A321s are going into Gatwick isn't really demand/capacity for big aircraft but that they get hammered on the Heathrow noise charges. They fall foul of some threshold in the Heathrow charges and there was apparently a couple of million quid per year difference per aircraft in the typical costs of operating the EUXs at Heathrow versus a NEO.
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Old 18th Apr 2023, 13:39
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Originally Posted by toledoashley
It’s a bit of fine line - on one hand they are trying to shout at investors to say that Gatwick is a ‘low cost operation’, whilst telling customers its no different to what you get at Heathrow.
It’s quite simple, it’s a low(er) operational cost to the company, mainly due staff contract and working practices, the product on offer to the customers is identical.

Nobody has claimed LGW is a LCC type operation as far as customers are concerned. Often fares on so called LCC airlines can be eye watering, either just the fare or with extras added on.. the “cost” aspect refers to the airlines operational costs, as opposed to charged to the customers, but the former allows lower fares to be charged, sometimes.

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Old 18th Apr 2023, 17:07
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From all that I hear, the Club Europe offer at Gatwick is one of the aspects working very well. The size of the Club cabins is capped because of cabin crew availability but the load factor up front sounds to be good
I wonder how much of that Club occupancy is real revenue vs. people upgrading using Avios!?
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Old 19th Apr 2023, 16:58
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But Avios 'spent' reduce a long-term liability set against group company accounts. Seeing them used is a good thing from an IAG perspective.
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Old 19th Apr 2023, 19:18
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Originally Posted by OzzyOzBorn
But Avios 'spent' reduce a long-term liability set against group company accounts. Seeing them used is a good thing from an IAG perspective.
Depends how Finance treat it, is the benefit allocated in any way to Gatwick short haul?
The relative weakness at LGW short haul is apparently the % of available seats redeemed vs. paid. They're trying to offer a multi cabin short haul point to point service aginast easyJet and Wizz whilst offering lounges and a Club service as well as the meeting the locos on fares.It's fundamentally schizophrenic IMHO, all things to all men and a round peg in a square hole. Even optimistic growth shows them as a bit player vs. easyJet.
You want real measurable growth? Go single cabin service and rebrand as a real standalone business unit to some akin to the old "British Airtours", under the BA branding umbrella but distinct from the network carrier at LHR. That's got a medium term chance, a go-fly for the 202s.
You want somewhere for LHR business travellers to redeem Avios on family holidays in the same way they've always done? Then keep trying that same thing that has't ever generated consistent profits or consistent growth since.
Since 1992, some three decades ago, BA have said annually that staff at LGW need to accept pay cuts as they can't make money. I think the problem always has been how BA's finance team allocate costs and revenue. I think the core issue is Euroflyer whilst technically a stand alone, is actually more like arms length BA mainline. It's really just BA (intentional from a branding perspective) but chaotic from an operational standpoint.
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Old 20th Apr 2023, 00:22
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Creative accounting in order to drive down costs. If the operation didn’t make money, they wouldn’t bother. Club and lounges is what differentiates them from the competition at LGW.

As for the club seats ex-LGW, more likely they’re revenue heavy with people on BA holidays whilst the double tier point promotion is ongoing.
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Old 14th Sep 2023, 08:57
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Head for Points has transcribed comments by BAEF CEO Tom Stoddart at a recent Aviation Club UK event:

https://www.headforpoints.com/2023/09/14/tom-stoddart-interview/

BA has never really made money shorthaul at Gatwick, with only one year in the last 15 delivering profits. The Gatwick leisure market is ruthless with fiercely competed yields requiring razor sharp attention to cost, something BA simply wasn’t equipped to do under the previous management structure. That meant it was difficult for BA to ever make a profit out of short haul at Gatwick.

​​​​​​​
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Old 14th Sep 2023, 11:02
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Well of course BA bought cityFlyer express which made profits on short haul at LGW due to, among other things, “razor sharp attention to costs” and, as soon as Bob Ayling left, proceeded to f it up royally partly due, IMHO, having a management who wouldn’t stand up to the unions.
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Old 14th Sep 2023, 11:05
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I'm always intrigued why BAEF and BACF share a CEO / MD. Would have thought it's much better to have a separate individual concentrating on each role.
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Old 14th Sep 2023, 11:51
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It doesn't really sound like an operation selling out to Jet2 though, at least that's how it reads.
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Old 14th Sep 2023, 14:23
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Originally Posted by toledoashley
It doesn't really sound like an operation selling out to Jet2 though, at least that's how it reads.
The term CEO is a misnomer, he's a senior manager within BA running two of the arms length operations (and still flying the line?)
If they haven't made money in 15 years, does that imply they last turned a profit in 2008? Or was that year zero for some reason? Bottom line is unless they make enough money to tie up 21 aircraft, they'll fold what they need to back into mainline. Do we reckon that this FY will be in the black? We've been here before so many times. The line that caught my eye was they were inspired by Iberia Express. An AOC expressly set up to destroy union power and wages at Iberia, basically it exists as a new start clean sheet so that IAG could move anything from Iberia mainline to Express over time and wind up the original after an extended period. The only difference here is that I2 was also based alongside Iberia at home base whereas Euroflyer is at Gatters. However, there remains NO reason why LGW long haul couldn't go over to Euroflyer over time. And even allow Euroflyer short haul to fly W patterns into LHR. Careful what you cheer for....
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Old 14th Sep 2023, 22:50
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BA Euroflyer was certainly inspired by Iberia Express. IAG CEO Luis Gallego was CEO of I2. Though, I believe the size of I2 is capped when an industrial dispute at Iberia went to binding arbitration.

There is an irony in that LGW went to mixed short / long haul flying for cabin crew around 2006 which was a precursor to Mixed Fleet at LHR. And now LGW has gone back to separate short and long haul crews.

Before BA Euroflyer, BA ran the slide rule over LGW costs and were adamant that its cost base was in line with the market. When does the need to drive down costs to be "flexible and competitive" ever stop?
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 08:54
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Maybe I'm too cynical with all things IAG these days but I'm incredibly sceptical they would have persisted with a loss making Gatwick operation for 15 years.....!
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Old 15th Sep 2023, 20:51
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
The term CEO is a misnomer, he's a senior manager within BA running two of the arms length operations (and still flying the line?).
Three if you count GGS
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