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Carlisle-3

Old 11th Aug 2023, 21:12
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Originally Posted by Buster the Bear
Using Google, yearly tourist number to the IoW are 625.000, whilst the Lake District is overall inc day visitors, over 45 million. I repeat what I said in June "I am astonished, that one of the UK's largest tourist areas, is devoid of a functioning airport!"
I'm astonished that Carlisle has a three lane motorway running past it - something Newcastle doesn't have
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Old 11th Aug 2023, 21:39
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Levelling up……on its way!
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Old 11th Aug 2023, 22:48
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Originally Posted by Buster the Bear
I am astonished, that one of the UK's largest tourist areas, is devoid of a functioning airport!
It may be devoid of a functioning airport... but it's served by at least 5!

I will, in a weak moment, admit that there seems to be a dysfunction in the UK regional airline market. It seems that while there are many airports similar to Carlisle in both the UK and Eire that ought to be able to support some kind of flying, and that if it was possible for one airline to get a monopoly of serving them all then that airline could probably make a fair stab at it. However a large element of that dysfunction might be that Heathrow doesn't have a third and fourth runway? It seems to me that these are the airports that could only support a service that was also a feeder service to a hub, and that people would only trust it enough to book it if it was run by a larger concern that... well... wasn't some virtual airline with 19 seat flights operated by people you've never heard of...
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Old 12th Aug 2023, 01:45
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Agreed, you only have to look at the states to put it into context. Look at Atlanta. Tons and Tons of regional jets in and out flying to all sorts of places.

It should be absolutely feasible (were it not for the situation we find ourselves in) for a carrier such as Loganair, or a BA Connect type setup, to operate multiple daily flights from Heathrow to Derry, Dundee and the Isle of Man, as well as Carlisle, Teesside, Leeds Bradford, Humberside, Norwich, Liverpool, Blackpool, Newquay, Waterford... Any more?
Unfortunately in this day and age the environmentalists won't let it happen, Brits are just used to settling for sub-par infrastructure and experience unless you have a moderately sized airport with an LCC or hub carrier nearby.

Think of it this way... Your average family from Dothan, Alabama or Valdosta, Georgia wanting to travel to the UK for a long weekend can head down to their local airport, jump on one of their twice daily DL connection flights to Atlanta and connect straight through to London, Manchester or Edinburgh. Simple as

Your average family from Carlisle wanting a long weekend in New York have to start and end their trip with a woeful trek to either Newcastle, Glasgow, Manchester or Edinburgh by car, bus or train, potentially involving an overnight hotel stay.

The whole metro areas of Valdosta and Dothan have less than 150,000 people. The cities themselves having 56,500 and 71,000 respectively. Carlisle has a population just under 110,000 and Cumbria as a whole just under 300,000, with significantly more tourism potential than Three Mile Island or Grand Bay swamp.
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Old 12th Aug 2023, 07:55
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Most visited place in Lake District is Windermere. There isn't that much time difference from Windermere to Carlisle airport as there is to Manchester airport - only 15 mins extra driving time.

I completely understand many other people go to many different areas of the Lakes. But without an airline directly feeding a larger carrier at a LHR style airport, as with the example of Atlanta, I can't see it ever happening. Unfortunately, as we're all too aware, BA just aren't ever going to properly feed the regions. Probably more chance of KLM giving it a go.
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Old 12th Aug 2023, 10:58
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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To those who compare Alabama to Carlisle... the UK has an extensive and high frequency train service. The US in places like Alabama does not.
A train from Manchester airport to Carlisle does not take a particularly long time, has a direct train roughly every hour, and is significantly cheaper than an add-on flight.
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Old 12th Aug 2023, 11:52
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Does Stobart still own Carlisle?
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Old 12th Aug 2023, 17:17
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Your average family from Carlisle wanting a long weekend in New York...
How many 'average families' in Carlisle take long weekends in New York? Or to any high yield destination?

I would aver sufficiently few that this argument, if it weren't already flawed in the comparison due to the existence of the West Coast Main Line, would not be very strong.
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Old 12th Aug 2023, 17:47
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"I'm astonished that Carlisle has a three lane motorway running past it - something Newcastle doesn't have"

Nothing to do with Carlisle - its the Glasgow- Manchester - Birmingham - London route - there isn't anything like the same amount of traffic up the east coast through Northumberland towards Edinburgh. And Newcastle has an eastern bypass via the Tyne Tunnel and a western bypass as well.
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Old 12th Aug 2023, 18:38
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Nothing to do with Carlisle
So you agree with me that Carlisle in itself is an insignificant destination and it isn't astonishing that is devoid of a functioning airport?

its the Glasgow- Manchester - Birmingham - London route - there isn't anything like the same amount of traffic up the east coast through Northumberland towards Edinburgh.
Maybe so, or is it because there isn't a vialble route up the East Coast? Don't forget that the A1 (note A1) turns into a single carriageway for much of the way north of Morpeth. And for many years the the road to Glasgow etc changed from a three lane motorway at Carlisle into to a dual carriageway with bus stops, tractors etc.

And Newcastle has an eastern bypass via the Tyne Tunnel and a western bypass as well.
Now I know your taking the p*ss!

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Old 12th Aug 2023, 19:03
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Probably more chance of KLM giving it a go.
Afraid not.

The radical eco-extremists governing in the Netherlands have got KLM and Schiphol in a noose. They are being forced to artificially reduce movements through AMS to appease the crazies. Whilst this policy endures, KLM Cityhopper will be completely hamstrung in any ambition to introduce new destinations.

The one hope is that early elections are to be held in November, and the 'Farmer's Party' have been polling strongly. This party has only emerged since the governing crazies tried to confiscate farmland, interfere with and restrict highly-efficient farming methods which they don't understand, and cull a large proportion of the nation's cattle herds. They believe that farting cows are killing Planet Earth. Airline services have no chance of expanding for as long as these nutters are in charge. Employment and economics are totally disregarded. Fingers crossed they get the boot in November.
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Old 12th Aug 2023, 19:49
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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There is more chance of KLM starting than BA, but thats like saying I've got more chance of flying to the moon than I have of flying to Mars. And it's nothing to do with Dutch politics.
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Old 12th Aug 2023, 22:33
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
There is more chance of KLM starting than BA, but thats like saying I've got more chance of flying to the moon than I have of flying to Mars. And it's nothing to do with Dutch politics.
Quite! 😂
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Old 13th Aug 2023, 08:07
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OzzyOzBorn
Afraid not.

The radical eco-extremists governing in the Netherlands have got KLM and Schiphol in a noose. They are being forced to artificially reduce movements through AMS to appease the crazies. Whilst this policy endures, KLM Cityhopper will be completely hamstrung in any ambition to introduce new destinations.

The one hope is that early elections are to be held in November, and the 'Farmer's Party' have been polling strongly. This party has only emerged since the governing crazies tried to confiscate farmland, interfere with and restrict highly-efficient farming methods which they don't understand, and cull a large proportion of the nation's cattle herds. They believe that farting cows are killing Planet Earth. Airline services have no chance of expanding for as long as these nutters are in charge. Employment and economics are totally disregarded. Fingers crossed they get the boot in November.
Fact check: Cows burping is the problem. They can fart all they like. I am sure we are all better off knowing this.
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Old 13th Aug 2023, 08:21
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We all need to vent, DC3D!
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Old 13th Aug 2023, 09:24
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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" or is it because there isn't a viable route up the East Coast? "

its a lot longer - even if it was dualled - Edinburgh isn't a major industrial area like Glasgow so they amount of heavy traffic will always be higher on the west side

and the Tyne Tunnel was the only bypass for Newcastle for many years IIRC - in fact the improved the A19 from the A1 south of Darlington as dual carriageway up the coast , and through the tunnel onto the A1 near Morpeth for that very reason. The western bypass only really came about because of the metro Centre TBH
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Old 13th Aug 2023, 14:29
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Originally Posted by RA85684
Agreed, you only have to look at the states to put it into context. Look at Atlanta. Tons and Tons of regional jets in and out flying to all sorts of places.

It should be absolutely feasible (were it not for the situation we find ourselves in) for a carrier such as Loganair, or a BA Connect type setup, to operate multiple daily flights from Heathrow to Derry, Dundee and the Isle of Man, as well as Carlisle, Teesside, Leeds Bradford, Humberside, Norwich, Liverpool, Blackpool, Newquay, Waterford... Any more?
Unfortunately in this day and age the environmentalists won't let it happen, Brits are just used to settling for sub-par infrastructure and experience unless you have a moderately sized airport with an LCC or hub carrier nearby.

Think of it this way... Your average family from Dothan, Alabama or Valdosta, Georgia wanting to travel to the UK for a long weekend can head down to their local airport, jump on one of their twice daily DL connection flights to Atlanta and connect straight through to London, Manchester or Edinburgh. Simple as

Your average family from Carlisle wanting a long weekend in New York have to start and end their trip with a woeful trek to either Newcastle, Glasgow, Manchester or Edinburgh by car, bus or train, potentially involving an overnight hotel stay.

The whole metro areas of Valdosta and Dothan have less than 150,000 people. The cities themselves having 56,500 and 71,000 respectively. Carlisle has a population just under 110,000 and Cumbria as a whole just under 300,000, with significantly more tourism potential than Three Mile Island or Grand Bay swamp.
Absolutely nothing to do with "environmentalists ". If there had have been a market and a profit to be made it would have been operating
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Old 13th Aug 2023, 16:11
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Originally Posted by RA85684
Think of it this way... Your average family from Dothan, Alabama or Valdosta, Georgia wanting to travel to the UK for a long weekend can head down to their local airport, jump on one of their twice daily DL connection flights to Atlanta and connect straight through to London, Manchester or Edinburgh. Simple as
...
The whole metro areas of Valdosta and Dothan have less than 150,000 people. The cities themselves having 56,500 and 71,000 respectively. Carlisle has a population just under 110,000 and Cumbria as a whole just under 300,000, with significantly more tourism potential than Three Mile Island or Grand Bay swamp.
The thing about those examples is that there's not an awful lot of places that you can get to by any means at all other than flying, so even people wanting to go the opposite direction to Atlanta maybe don't have a huge choice but to pay whatever Delta wants from them. I see that a round trip in two weeks time is going to cost a minimum of $400, and a round trip in a month's time with business friendly-ish times is $600 (when the equivalent trip from Manchester to London with BA would be 179). For sure if you wanted to fly from Carlisle and if Carlisle had enough flights to have them at the right times for you then you would be willing to pay more than the 179... but probably not enough more to make it worth an airline's while?

And in fact to develop the point... suppose a family in Dothan decided to visit the Lake District. Their choices for the dates I choose are a $1400 dollar round trip from Atlanta, a $1650 round trip from Dothan... and in most parts of the US that would be the extent of the equivalant options that would be available to them. (Of course because Orlando is special they are in quite a priviliged position of actually having the option that they could if they wanted to go there...)

I would suggest that the only thing making the Dothan fare competitive with Atlanta is that Delta have control of that market to the extent that their fares are not being set completely with reference to the free market, which in UK regional aviation very much exists!

Last edited by 01475; 13th Aug 2023 at 16:22.
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Old 13th Aug 2023, 17:18
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
and the Tyne Tunnel was the only bypass for Newcastle for many years IIRC - in fact the improved the A19 from the A1 south of Darlington as dual carriageway up the coast , and through the tunnel onto the A1 near Morpeth for that very reason. The western bypass only really came about because of the metro Centre TBH
Fortunately as investment in this countries transport infrastructure isn't influenced by political patronage, I don't have to hope for one of our local MP's to become a cabinet minister before the last roundabouts and traffic lights are removed from the A19. I agree that around Newcastle, neither the A1 nor the A19 are really fit to be strategic transports links, but mainly act as local distribution roads.
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Old 14th Aug 2023, 11:42
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Originally Posted by Aero Mad
How many 'average families' in Carlisle take long weekends in New York? Or to any high yield destination?
I would aver sufficiently few that this argument, if it weren't already flawed in the comparison due to the existence of the West Coast Main Line, would not be very strong.
I think there will be more than you expect. With a catchment of over 100,000, there will be a handful of passengers every day heading to NCL/MAN etc. and connecting onwards. We're not talking enough to justify a direct flight to New York, but there may well be close to enough to justify a Dublin/Amsterdam flight. Let's not forget that Dublin did well under Loganair in the Summer of 2019, and this was without any transfer agreements.

Also, lets not forget that Carlisle is expanding - with 10,000 new homes due to be built in the St Cuthberts Garden village, plus expansion elsewhere, and that 100,000 will be a lot higher in 10 years time.
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