Manchester-3
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: North
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Grim? Why? Do passengers fix the aircraft themselves these days? ;-)
Personally, having hangar facilities is neither here nor there to me. It’s nice to have for sure but I’d be keen to see further terminal developments.
Personally, having hangar facilities is neither here nor there to me. It’s nice to have for sure but I’d be keen to see further terminal developments.
So, you're quite happy getting your aircraft fixed in the open air, window perhaps removed, rain and snow flooding in ruining the decor and fusing the electronics, not to mention the mechanics, perhaps, taking longer to do the job, so you don't get to use the aircraft for a longer period costing you more in lost revenue and ruining your reputation not to mention irate passengers losing holiday time.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: South East
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airlines don’t routinely use hangars for line maintenance of any description, including window changes. Engine changes and the like all happen outside. Hangars, including ones you own, are usually booked up months in advance for heavy checks so there is usually little capacity for causality maintenance. Notable example being the likes of BA at LHR that have a casualty hangar.
If an airline is having to put an aircraft in the hangar, it’s going to be quicker to tow over an alternative aircraft or even fly in a standby from elsewhere. I’m sorry but your scenario is totally unrealistic. I spent many years working in an operational role for a Manchester based airline. It was our head office. Second biggest base after Gatwick, 30+ Airbus and Boeing aircraft. We didn’t have a hangar. Anywhere. Did all our own line maintenance. Most overnight checks were done in the Monarch hangar on a planned basis. Occasionally some were done at Luton. Major checks were sometimes done at the same, but contracted out in places like GAMCO Abu Dhabi for the most part. And this was a Manchester based airline.
Nobody is going to build a hangar to keep the engineers dry doing a wheel change or replacing a windscreen, sadly.
The lack of hangars isn’t a commercial disadvantage to the airport, or any airline operating there. Given that the ones MAN already has are in their current status is proof of if they were needed, that they are not a deal breaker if not available.
Major changes have been made at increasing intervals between scheduled hangar maintenance, even for existing types. Aircraft hangars are now much less essential than they were previously in decades gone by. Case in point. Ryanair. 458 aircraft. Biggest airline in Europe. About 5 hangars… STN, DUB, WRO, PIK, BGY… or BA’s huge CWL wide body hangar. They’re not doing AOG work there, because they don’t fly there.
Im sure MAG would in no way mind if someone planned and built a new hangar at Manchester, but partly as a result of how busy the airport is in normal times, it’s not an ideal place for aircraft maintenance unless a particular airline has a huge base there. And I mean huge. Which is why the likes of BA have Cardiff, AA have Tulsa and Lufthansa have Malta among others. It’s easier to have it at a quiet airport you can easily get slots at. Casualty maintenance is a red herring with technical reliability rates above 99.8%.
If an airline is having to put an aircraft in the hangar, it’s going to be quicker to tow over an alternative aircraft or even fly in a standby from elsewhere. I’m sorry but your scenario is totally unrealistic. I spent many years working in an operational role for a Manchester based airline. It was our head office. Second biggest base after Gatwick, 30+ Airbus and Boeing aircraft. We didn’t have a hangar. Anywhere. Did all our own line maintenance. Most overnight checks were done in the Monarch hangar on a planned basis. Occasionally some were done at Luton. Major checks were sometimes done at the same, but contracted out in places like GAMCO Abu Dhabi for the most part. And this was a Manchester based airline.
Nobody is going to build a hangar to keep the engineers dry doing a wheel change or replacing a windscreen, sadly.
The lack of hangars isn’t a commercial disadvantage to the airport, or any airline operating there. Given that the ones MAN already has are in their current status is proof of if they were needed, that they are not a deal breaker if not available.
Major changes have been made at increasing intervals between scheduled hangar maintenance, even for existing types. Aircraft hangars are now much less essential than they were previously in decades gone by. Case in point. Ryanair. 458 aircraft. Biggest airline in Europe. About 5 hangars… STN, DUB, WRO, PIK, BGY… or BA’s huge CWL wide body hangar. They’re not doing AOG work there, because they don’t fly there.
Im sure MAG would in no way mind if someone planned and built a new hangar at Manchester, but partly as a result of how busy the airport is in normal times, it’s not an ideal place for aircraft maintenance unless a particular airline has a huge base there. And I mean huge. Which is why the likes of BA have Cardiff, AA have Tulsa and Lufthansa have Malta among others. It’s easier to have it at a quiet airport you can easily get slots at. Casualty maintenance is a red herring with technical reliability rates above 99.8%.
I am not talking about line maintenance. Neither am I talking about based aircraft with a fleet of replacement aircraft on hand. I'm talking about casualty aircraft that may only fly in a one or two times per day from thousands of miles away not a 737 hopping across the channel.
I think I've seen one engine change at MAN outside. The rest were all in either the BA or FLS/TC hangar. With good reason. If you are involved in aircraft maintenance you will know why.
Why you want to belittle the job by suggesting its just to keep the engineers dry during a wheel change beats me.
High winds, freezing temperatures, heavy rain can cause real problems.
World class airlines want world class facilities at their chosen destinations. There is no reason why maintenance should be any different. If you think its expensive, try having an accident.
I think I've seen one engine change at MAN outside. The rest were all in either the BA or FLS/TC hangar. With good reason. If you are involved in aircraft maintenance you will know why.
Why you want to belittle the job by suggesting its just to keep the engineers dry during a wheel change beats me.
High winds, freezing temperatures, heavy rain can cause real problems.
World class airlines want world class facilities at their chosen destinations. There is no reason why maintenance should be any different. If you think its expensive, try having an accident.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Eas Anglia
Age: 64
Posts: 812
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Must confess i'm not an engineer but fixing a casualty aircraft in the open seems fraught with issues ?
Pity about THG, a missed opportunity by all accounts.
It will be interesting to see what the losses are, given the perilous position at LHR.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...osses-near-3bn
With money to find for that new £1bn terminal and no prospect of increased revenue in the short to medium term given the shambolic government policy on travel would MAG seek to offload EMA to raise funds ?
Pity about THG, a missed opportunity by all accounts.
It will be interesting to see what the losses are, given the perilous position at LHR.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...osses-near-3bn
With money to find for that new £1bn terminal and no prospect of increased revenue in the short to medium term given the shambolic government policy on travel would MAG seek to offload EMA to raise funds ?
Obviuosly fooled by your use of the word "city" ! 
Like many I've not visited for ages. What hangars are left standing? Is the Thomas Cook hangar not stood empty so could still be used in an emergency as described above?
Like many I've not visited for ages. What hangars are left standing? Is the Thomas Cook hangar not stood empty so could still be used in an emergency as described above?
OK, I admit using City may have confused some people.
As for hangar availability. Both, Air Livery/BA and the FLS/Thomas Cook hangars are currently unfit. Deluge systems not maintained etc. As a consequence, even though they are sitting there empty, they can't be used. The old Dan Air hangar is a ground service maintenance facility leaving the ex Monarch hangar, now used by Jet2 as the only one on site. Jet2 seem to be using it constantly or are refusing to rent out space.
As for hangar availability. Both, Air Livery/BA and the FLS/Thomas Cook hangars are currently unfit. Deluge systems not maintained etc. As a consequence, even though they are sitting there empty, they can't be used. The old Dan Air hangar is a ground service maintenance facility leaving the ex Monarch hangar, now used by Jet2 as the only one on site. Jet2 seem to be using it constantly or are refusing to rent out space.
Navpi
I would urge some nuance on comments of this nature. Frustration is understandable, but many departments within MAG (and specifically at MAN) have been doing an admirable job under unprecedented constraints.
The Transformation Plan team has done an outstanding job. To more than double the operational size of T2 whilst keeping the legacy operation running smoothly throughout the construction programme was an immense and under-appreciated achievement. Yes, we can argue about budget constraints, but the team on the spot did a stunning job with the resources allocated to them. The new section of T2 is a valuable asset helping to secure MAN's long-term future, and no passengers were disrupted by its delivery. (Though afew more respite seats along the lengthy transit routes / queueing areas would be appreciated!). The remodelling of the airport's airside layout is another unrecognised achievement. Great work by the team delivering that. Security at MAN has faced a lot of criticism in the past, but huge positive strides had been made long before Covid decimated the crowds. And MAN's retail and catering offering (loved by some, loathed by others!) is up there with the best in the business. The routes team did an outstanding job too. Management of the day-to-day operation has generally been positive across the board.
So let's deliver due criticism with precision rather than taking a generic "Manchester Airport management is rubbish" approach. There are two underperforming areas of the business at MAN (Covid excepted). Firstly, the agency responsible for hangar lettings has been an abject disaster. The loss of Air Livery (effectively forced out, some suggest?) was a monumental blunder, resulting in many quality jobs being avoidably lost to the region. And the debacle concerning a large established aircraft maintenance provider allegedly seeing a hangar tenancy gazzumped from under them, even as they were recruiting highly-skilled engineering jobs, ranks with the largest blunders in the entire history of Manchester Airport in my view. Just what has the new "preferred" tenant delivered in their place? Did they renege? Are those responsible for this abject decision still in post? What is being done to recover something from the ruins? If an outside agency was responsible, has legal action for damages been taken against them? How many hundreds of highly-skilled jobs has this cost the airport campus?
The other area of persistent failure at MAN is FLOWN-CARGO, specifically support for dedicated freighter aircraft. The arguments have all been discussed in depth on here, so nothing to be gained by re-running that debate. But, to my knowledge, there is still not even one hi-lo on site. Cornish continues to "fiddle whilst Rome burns", seemingly content to allow MAN to continue descent into irrelevance in the global flown-cargo stakes. I fear that responsibility for this open wound goes right to the top of MAG group level here. Cornish appears to believe that that the status quo on cargo is acceptable. In terms of MAG's corporate balance sheet he may be able to argue that, but an airport is a utility serving it's region, and an equitable balance must be struck between feeding MAG's bottom line and providing the level of service the North's primary gateway deserves. Total failure on this. And one can't blame the cargo "switch-sell" team at East Midlands and Stansted: they're doing what they're instructed to do. MAG needs to re-assess this at the highest level, or Mr Cornish's legacy will be remembered as a very patchy one.
The buck stops at the summit of MAG. Mr Cornish: please consider allocating some management time to sorting out MAN's two disaster zones. The terrible impression which their abject performance leaves results in comments such as that quoted above: generic condemnation of MAN's management en masse. That is soul-destroying for those comprising the many departments which have pulled out all the stops to deliver a great job. They merit positive recognition. From a management perspective, you have two not-fit-for-purpose departments in the MAN operation which require a root-and-branch reorganisation. Perhaps the recent 'hangar to let' advertisement is an early indication that something is finally being done to recover the situation. I guess it is too much to hope that the previously gazzumped tenant might be attracted back ... if they've vowed never to work with MAG again one could scarcely blame them, given what was alleged to have happened. And the early impression is that MAG backed a duffer with their preferred replacement hangar tenant.
I would urge some nuance on comments of this nature. Frustration is understandable, but many departments within MAG (and specifically at MAN) have been doing an admirable job under unprecedented constraints.
The Transformation Plan team has done an outstanding job. To more than double the operational size of T2 whilst keeping the legacy operation running smoothly throughout the construction programme was an immense and under-appreciated achievement. Yes, we can argue about budget constraints, but the team on the spot did a stunning job with the resources allocated to them. The new section of T2 is a valuable asset helping to secure MAN's long-term future, and no passengers were disrupted by its delivery. (Though afew more respite seats along the lengthy transit routes / queueing areas would be appreciated!). The remodelling of the airport's airside layout is another unrecognised achievement. Great work by the team delivering that. Security at MAN has faced a lot of criticism in the past, but huge positive strides had been made long before Covid decimated the crowds. And MAN's retail and catering offering (loved by some, loathed by others!) is up there with the best in the business. The routes team did an outstanding job too. Management of the day-to-day operation has generally been positive across the board.
So let's deliver due criticism with precision rather than taking a generic "Manchester Airport management is rubbish" approach. There are two underperforming areas of the business at MAN (Covid excepted). Firstly, the agency responsible for hangar lettings has been an abject disaster. The loss of Air Livery (effectively forced out, some suggest?) was a monumental blunder, resulting in many quality jobs being avoidably lost to the region. And the debacle concerning a large established aircraft maintenance provider allegedly seeing a hangar tenancy gazzumped from under them, even as they were recruiting highly-skilled engineering jobs, ranks with the largest blunders in the entire history of Manchester Airport in my view. Just what has the new "preferred" tenant delivered in their place? Did they renege? Are those responsible for this abject decision still in post? What is being done to recover something from the ruins? If an outside agency was responsible, has legal action for damages been taken against them? How many hundreds of highly-skilled jobs has this cost the airport campus?
The other area of persistent failure at MAN is FLOWN-CARGO, specifically support for dedicated freighter aircraft. The arguments have all been discussed in depth on here, so nothing to be gained by re-running that debate. But, to my knowledge, there is still not even one hi-lo on site. Cornish continues to "fiddle whilst Rome burns", seemingly content to allow MAN to continue descent into irrelevance in the global flown-cargo stakes. I fear that responsibility for this open wound goes right to the top of MAG group level here. Cornish appears to believe that that the status quo on cargo is acceptable. In terms of MAG's corporate balance sheet he may be able to argue that, but an airport is a utility serving it's region, and an equitable balance must be struck between feeding MAG's bottom line and providing the level of service the North's primary gateway deserves. Total failure on this. And one can't blame the cargo "switch-sell" team at East Midlands and Stansted: they're doing what they're instructed to do. MAG needs to re-assess this at the highest level, or Mr Cornish's legacy will be remembered as a very patchy one.
The buck stops at the summit of MAG. Mr Cornish: please consider allocating some management time to sorting out MAN's two disaster zones. The terrible impression which their abject performance leaves results in comments such as that quoted above: generic condemnation of MAN's management en masse. That is soul-destroying for those comprising the many departments which have pulled out all the stops to deliver a great job. They merit positive recognition. From a management perspective, you have two not-fit-for-purpose departments in the MAN operation which require a root-and-branch reorganisation. Perhaps the recent 'hangar to let' advertisement is an early indication that something is finally being done to recover the situation. I guess it is too much to hope that the previously gazzumped tenant might be attracted back ... if they've vowed never to work with MAG again one could scarcely blame them, given what was alleged to have happened. And the early impression is that MAG backed a duffer with their preferred replacement hangar tenant.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Manchester, England
Age: 58
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can’t tell you the loads, but they have cancelled just 1 out of 10 flights since the service commenced, and flights look to be bookable twice a week into the winter. Latvia moving to the green list should help too, so not sure what your issue with them is!
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Eas Anglia
Age: 64
Posts: 812
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The other area of persistent failure at MAN is FLOWN-CARGO, specifically support for dedicated freighter aircraft. The arguments have all been discussed in depth on here"
Maybe there is, i've seen a number of comments that the flights into LHR are essentially carrying freight and that this value does actually cover costs.
Well so much for the "no money in freight argument"
It would explain the large volumes and indeed duplication of routes and services. The market seens to be growing daily.
There are now 25 US flights into LHR beteeen 0600 and 1100 daily. 5 a day from JFK alone.
There is a sense that as we try and emerge from this hell hole , ALL UK long haul demand is effectively but understandably being artificially sucked into a growing "one country, one airport" syndrome.
The MAN management will do well to get back to anywhere near a semblance of a long haul network, EI and SIA is a start, but I hope they are noting what's happening down South and maybe going after a few crumbs.
If that market really is lost maybe court RYR, as another poster suggested , they seem to be the only show in town by some distance.
Maybe there is, i've seen a number of comments that the flights into LHR are essentially carrying freight and that this value does actually cover costs.
Well so much for the "no money in freight argument"
It would explain the large volumes and indeed duplication of routes and services. The market seens to be growing daily.
There are now 25 US flights into LHR beteeen 0600 and 1100 daily. 5 a day from JFK alone.
There is a sense that as we try and emerge from this hell hole , ALL UK long haul demand is effectively but understandably being artificially sucked into a growing "one country, one airport" syndrome.
The MAN management will do well to get back to anywhere near a semblance of a long haul network, EI and SIA is a start, but I hope they are noting what's happening down South and maybe going after a few crumbs.
If that market really is lost maybe court RYR, as another poster suggested , they seem to be the only show in town by some distance.
Last edited by Navpi; 6th Aug 2021 at 15:56.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Danunder
Age: 49
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't forget that a good proportion of the BA (and some VS) cargo flying on dedicated flights is not being offloaded at LHR. It is transiting before continuing on E/B or W/B. Sometimes just a crew or flight number swap.
And don't forget that cargo is flying in & out of MAN on empty & light pax legs too.
And don't forget that cargo is flying in & out of MAN on empty & light pax legs too.
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: London
Posts: 836
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My beef is they are and have been an unreliable carrier in the best of times and with freedom of movement , pretty liveries , competitive fares and competition with Ryanair Sun (Buzz) not a chance to be honest
Navpi
What evidence do you have? Top 3 measures that support this?
What matters more and is a less stressed out guide is plans for next summer. Looking at LHR arrivals and freaking out is only torturing yourself. This summer is a write off due to uncertainty, winter is a seasonal trough anyway so please look and see what's placeholdered for our first realistic chance at a post COVID or living with COVID season.
It's crucial not to conflate short term survival tactics with mediun term aims and strategy. Specifically MAN's long haul, and we always seem to come back to that, has good options with Virgin to rebuild. Aer Lingus can certainly be wooed if the deal is right to commit to MAN long haul. With Thomas Cook gone there's real scope for Norse Atlantic, I'm sure MAG are already having conversations. But you'll go nuts if you keep comparing MAN to LHR.
And Cargo rates have been vastly inflated and will collapse as passenger flights ramp up and charges fall due to supply and demand.
What evidence do you have? Top 3 measures that support this?
What matters more and is a less stressed out guide is plans for next summer. Looking at LHR arrivals and freaking out is only torturing yourself. This summer is a write off due to uncertainty, winter is a seasonal trough anyway so please look and see what's placeholdered for our first realistic chance at a post COVID or living with COVID season.
It's crucial not to conflate short term survival tactics with mediun term aims and strategy. Specifically MAN's long haul, and we always seem to come back to that, has good options with Virgin to rebuild. Aer Lingus can certainly be wooed if the deal is right to commit to MAN long haul. With Thomas Cook gone there's real scope for Norse Atlantic, I'm sure MAG are already having conversations. But you'll go nuts if you keep comparing MAN to LHR.
And Cargo rates have been vastly inflated and will collapse as passenger flights ramp up and charges fall due to supply and demand.
Last edited by Skipness One Foxtrot; 6th Aug 2021 at 20:34.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Eas Anglia
Age: 64
Posts: 812
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skipness One Foxtrot
It was a very balanced opinion.
As usual the only person "freaking out" is your goodself !
And be reassured I'm having a large glass of Shiraz with some French cheese, no chance of going nuts here.
It was a very balanced opinion.
As usual the only person "freaking out" is your goodself !
And be reassured I'm having a large glass of Shiraz with some French cheese, no chance of going nuts here.
All Jet2 flights depart from T2, all arrivals into T2 except Jersey where pax are bussed to T1.
I know the airport is strapped for cash, but could they not turn on the Skylink travelators? It's a heck of a trek from the Station to the new T2 check in.
I know the airport is strapped for cash, but could they not turn on the Skylink travelators? It's a heck of a trek from the Station to the new T2 check in.