Monarch 4

[Buster the Bear]

Can anyone confirm that the order by Greybull for MAX 8s has been cancelled?

I have read speculation, but nothing firm.

During the last rites of Monarch. KPMG tried to sell the 'short haul' business. Swaffield had set up an airline consultancy business a few days before the CAA pulled the plug.

Monarch was to be taken into a long haul business according to press releases late last month.

As the largest creditor, the sale proceeds of lucrative slots will go to Greybull.

All speculation of course, but I guess the key to my theory is with the MAX 8 order?

[MKY661]

Nothing about that was mentioned in any article as far as I've read, maybe something could happen?

[racedo]

Originally Posted by Buster the Bear

As the largest creditor, the sale proceeds of lucrative slots will go to Greybull.

Not necessarily as I would expect that the slots were mortgaged to the hilt to generate cash and hence owners are banks or someone else.

Secured creditors have their money secured, anybody else its you have already lost it.

[pabloc]

The shelf company set up on the 25th according to a company email was that an airline wanted to buy us but not with the max order so they set up a separate company to take the max’s....
my own opinion on the whole collapse of Monarch is that other airlines, itwas a take it or leave it financial offer, so Greybull let it go under and sell off to the other airlines the slots,max order to the highest bidder...Greybull have a bidding war which is what they want...
On another note I just like to wish all my Monarch family all the very best in the future,it’s been a pleasure to work with you all ...we might meet up again at FL360....

[yeo valley]

Originally Posted by MKY661

All of it's fleet are leased yes, though G-ZBAR was a dry lease from Air Malta so I'm assuming this has gone back already as they will want it back.

It was ferried to Shannon

[parabellum]

How's it fair the public get a lift home (including those NOT covered by ATOL) and the stafff lose a weeks wages?

Well I hope the pilots, senior ground staff and senior CC have had the good sense to keep a Loss of Earnings policy going, most banks sell them as do some insurance companies. When in the UK I had one that covered mortgage and insurance payments for a year. Sadly I think the junior CC and general office staff are the ones who will suffer the most.

[auntyice]

Originally Posted by Jonty

And that is exactly what is happening, the problem is most of Monarchs passengers are not covered by it, so the government is picking up the tab to bring those passengers home.

This is not true, I came back from Palma to Gatwick on a rescue flight and we were all given forms from the CAA to enable them to recover charges of cancelled scheduled flights from credit card and insurance companies.

I have to say I was impressed by the whole organisation of the operation and whilst I had to be bussed up to Manchester, that was a minor inconvenience compared to the trauma suffered by the staff who have lost their jobs.

[rog747]

as for creditors greybull are way down the list - they will not see much back

first served will be
HMRC
Bank loans mortgages
any repatriation costs not met by CAA fund or HM Govt
various atc and caa agencies and countries for ATC and overflying fees
lessors and possibly Boeing re canx MAX order
fuel
airport handling
rents
staff costs/wages
plus any other bills and claims from 3rd party creditors and passengers

then Greybull and any other stake holders will be at the bottom

edited to include HMRC

[rog747]

let Jonty enjoy having his moment -

whilst HM Govt is initially organising and paying out, the ultimate recharge for most of this will be to the CAA reserve fund which stands at over £130m which has already been stated as being the case by HM Govt

The bulk of MON pax not covered by ATOL are future flyers who will have to claim their ticket losses back from their bank card companies and/or their travel insurers if they have end user or airline failure cover

[01475]

Originally Posted by racedo

Not necessarily as I would expect that the slots were mortgaged to the hilt to generate cash and hence owners are banks or someone else.

Secured creditors have their money secured, anybody else its you have already lost it.

Private equity people usually secure on assets, it would be most unusual if they didn't.

Monarch was different in that it went under before it ran out of cash, so there may not be much more in the way of secured borrowing. I'd be surprised if Greybull aren't near the top of the list.

[rog747]

Originally Posted by Chidken Sangwich

i hope the staff will be paid full wages for the days from their last pay packet up until Sunday if this was already known? How's it fair the public get a lift home (including those NOT covered by ATOL) and the stafff lose a weeks wages?

of course staff get all pay whats owing and also their holiday pay due - sadly no redundancy though
this can be a long process but staff will ultimately get what is owing

as to pax ''getting a lift home'' that is why we have the CAA and funds and bonds lodged by tour operators and airlines to have rainy day money just for this type of event
this was set up in 1974 after the huge Court Line and Clarksons/Horizon collapse

[Jetavia]

Norwegian also recruiting Monarch pilots fast-track.. https://www.webcruiter.no/WcMain/AdvertViewPublic.aspx?oppdragsnr=3586242794&culture_id=EN&co mpany_id=201503&link_source_id=0

[Flightrider]

Once an airline becomes insolvent and its AOC is suspended, its slots are suspended and become provisional. They cannot be sold individually or in lots and the only way in which they can change hands is if they form part of a sale of the whole corporate entity.

Talk of a sell off of slots to raise money is therefore uninformed speculation.

[Jonty]

Originally Posted by rog747

of course staff get all pay whats owing and also their holiday pay due - sadly no redundancy though
this can be a long process but staff will ultimately get what is owing

as to pax ''getting a lift home'' that is why we have the CAA and funds and bonds lodged by tour operators and airlines to have rainy day money just for this type of event
this was set up in 1974 after the huge Court Line and Clarksons/Horizon collapse

I would love to know where you are getting your info from, because your going against everything that has been stated by the CAA, government, reported in the mainstream press or the travel trade press. The Air Travel Fund is covering the cost of ATOL bonded passengers only, which is about 5% of Monarchs passengers. The rest are flight only and the government will have to try to recover the money from credit or debit cards. Why do you think the CAs are handing out forms to recoup some of their costs if they were going to get it back anyway?

The fund was set up in 70s to cover bonded travel companies and passengers. Monarch flight only passengers are not covered by it, and haven’t been since last year.

If it’s going to pay out for passengers who were not covered by it, why would you ever pay into it in the first place?

It’s not about having your “moment” it’s about being accurate. So if you have proof that the fund is going to cover Monarchs flight only passengers let’s see it, I’m happy to be proven wrong.

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Originally Posted by Buster the Bear

PPF now lose, so basically all UK taxpayers now Monarch has failed. They/we had a 10% stake in the airline. Could the Phoenix rise from the Admin ashes without this burden?

No Buster, the PPF loses, but not the UK taxpayer. You are operating under the commonly held misconception that the PPF is government funded. It isn't. Please watch this video and particularly what the young lady makes plain at 4:42.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVmhJpankZs

[BCAR Section L]

Does it actually matter who pays?
Should passengers who bought in good faith be left stranded?

Outside the universe of the UK there are many countries that don't have an ATOL type system. Indeed Air Berlin was propped up by tax payers money to avoid stranding.

[El Bunto]

Sometimes what ever you do as management is not going to work when external circumstances over which you have zero control destroy part of your business. Terrorist attacks in Tunisia, Egypt, Turkey meant whatever plans you have are gone and you have to try and compensate.

Ah the T-word, always a good excuse.

How would Ryanair look today if they had just focused on existing routes? They'd still be small, weak and vulnerable to seasonal and longer-term trends. Instead they got out there and made demand for new routes, advertising new and unusual destinations for good prices. This gave them volume, resiliency and potential.

I have no love for Ryanair but I can appreciate the business model behind their growth. Whereas Monarch management? Where was the "risk-taking" that CEOs and MDs use to justify their insane salaries?

[compton3bravo]

Rog I think you forgot HMRC come at the very top or near the top. Also the employees were not given the statutory 45 day redundancy notices which they are entitled to which the UNITE union are taking up with KPMG. In my experience of being made redundant staff wages come before most other creditors i.e. fuel, handling companies etc. It could turn out to be rather messy I am afraid.

[infrequentflyer789]

Originally Posted by rog747

of course staff get all pay whats owing and also their holiday pay due - sadly no redundancy though
this can be a long process but staff will ultimately get what is owing

Unless airlines in administration are massively different to every other industry, will they b***ocks.

Having actually been through this a few years ago (in a different industry) staff will get:

- an amount in respect of wages owing and statutory redundancy pay, capped at a pretty low level, from the RPO
- nothing for contractual redundancy or notice pay or unpaid commission or even unpaid expenses claims until years later when the administrators have bled the pot dry at £200+ per hour (KPMG might be more) at which point you'll get pennies in the pound on the debt if you are lucky

If you're earning enough to pay higher rate tax it is well worth looking into what you can offset/claim against tax on your tax return - it may only be a few hundred in over 10k, but it's probably more than you'll get from the administrators, and it'll land in your wallet a lot faster (really).

Monarch seems to have pulled the plug at the beginning of a month, which is a bit unusual - normally it is just before monthly payroll at the end of a month, so you are instantly a month's pay down (in my case payroll on 30th, messaged 10pm on 28th to be in the office first thing on 29th to be given marching orders and a box to clear your desk into). Not sure when Monarch's payroll was, but staff may have been slightly lucky on that.

[mondayrunner]

Originally Posted by pabloc

The shelf company set up on the 25th according to a company email was that an airline wanted to buy us but not with the max order so they set up a separate company to take the max’s....
my own opinion on the whole collapse of Monarch is that other airlines, itwas a take it or leave it financial offer, so Greybull let it go under and sell off to the other airlines the slots,max order to the highest bidder...Greybull have a bidding war which is what they want...
On another note I just like to wish all my Monarch family all the very best in the future,it’s been a pleasure to work with you all ...we might meet up again at FL360....

Was this in a separate email to the one that has been widely published? Can't see it confirmed anywhere.