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Monarch 4

Old 2nd Oct 2017, 16:08
  #701 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by Buster the Bear View Post
Allegedly a succession of poor senior management decisions over around the last ten years certainly did not help Monarch plot a comfortable path forward.
Spot on. Clueless.

Just consider where Jet2 were ten years ago...
or how many flights wizzair had into Monarch's Luton backyard ten years ago vs now.

MON management relied on their 'history' and fat paychecks while the world passed them by.

This has been coming for many years and yes the wool was somewhat pulled over the Mantegazza's eyes by yes-men. Andrew Swaffield's statement reeks of still not having a clue what to do right up to the last knockings.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 16:18
  #702 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 228
I don't understand the logic of sending six aircraft from to the UK surely they need to fly direct the destinations where pax need to leave, for example Tel Aviv to Luton? Can someone explain this?

Sencondly, based on the facts, I wonder if the CAA and ATOL have as previously mentioned on here, has anyone at the CAA or ATOL costed this out so they could operate for another two weeks. I apperciate there would need to be a guarantee of fuel charges, navigation charges, staff costs, bad debts, etc. being paid for the next two weeks. To add I would have thought crew would be prepared to fly for another two weeks, if they were paid in full up to that date.

It is rather a pity that the customers who booked with Monarch who paid for a quality experience, suffer as a result of low cost airlines, perhaps there should be a similar ATOL levey on flights that cost less than £25 (4%) and £50 (4%) that would have allowed Monarch's crews to recover their PAX. Personally I would put a levey on non business flight for example Luton to Faro for the day, it not very enviromental in terms of fuel use. Meanwhile the EU bans 1500w vacumn cleaners on the grounds of energy use and noise.

Finally I am not a lawyer, but is it correct in mpounding aircraft, my impression is that under English Law, that High Court baliffs can take control over goods, which could include a car which you could still use. I see no reason why Monarch pilot's could contune to fly, although perhaps an aircraft an aircraft is in danger of getting seized, lets say if if landed at SKG and had not paid fuel and landing fees and as previously mentioned this might be an insurance issue. Of course if the airframe and or engines are leased it is a different situation, I think.

Last edited by Homsap; 2nd Oct 2017 at 16:34.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 16:20
  #703 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 647
Attn Monarch Pilots, Virgin Atlantic want to hear off you. Check out the recruitment page.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 16:25
  #704 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,509
And here's another unionised pretty good T's & C's airline that has gone bye bye, and not due to being unionised and having good T's & C's. Damn; that mantra we often hear about how being unionised causes all sorts of bad thing to happen. Oh my. It can't be true it was not their fault because that doesn't fit the mantra. Flight crew, generally, just fly where & when they are told to: someone else decides the where & with what & how often and at what price.
Hang in guys & gals and find sunshine somewhere for the rest of your career.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 16:49
  #705 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Stralya
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by BCAR Section L View Post
Lots of high praise being thrown around here which didn't happen in the air berlin thread.
So to stop me getting confused can someone please identify what great innovative idea monarch brought to aviation that made them so good?
Not sure you have to bring innovation to the market to gain respect. What I had respect for when I worked there was the dedication to make things work whilst being professional at the same time. The fact that there was no 'them and us' between pilots, cabin crew and engineers meant that it was easy to work there.

Is that enough?
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 16:52
  #706 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: ZRH
Age: 39
Posts: 150
Just to clarify the question of why Monarch themselves arenít performing the rescue flights. In law, once a company is declared insolvent and ceases trading as they did at 4am they are no longer permitted to engage in any trade whatsoever. Undertaking a revenue flight, or receiving a fee from the CAA to operate rescue flights would be against the rules. Besides that, whoís going to fuel and handle a Monarch aircraft at the moment?
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 17:00
  #707 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: BHX
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by ratchetring View Post
MAEL is a separate company i believe and operating as normal at present
It sure is, which is the only bit of good news to come out of Luton the last few days or another couple of UK airlines would be in trouble! A Virgin 787 in BHX plus all the Flybe work that is done by MAEL. I'd guess now their main customer at MAN and BHX is Flybe, the aircraft (and TUPE'd engineers) most of the original Monarchists couldn't stand.

Last edited by In Mon I Trust; 2nd Oct 2017 at 17:00. Reason: poor spelling
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 17:07
  #708 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: IoM & Luton
Age: 55
Posts: 1,726
As one of my friends said who benefited from career advancement with them "A sad day for aviation, as Monarch NEVER lost a hull or airplane in its nearly 50 years of operation, great training and great people helped that!" but he did leave 10+ years ago.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 17:24
  #709 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 47
Very sorry to here the news

Many moons ago I was Luton based with BAL. Monarch always seemed a classy outfit. Fond memories . I hope it works out for the many dedicated and had working staff.

Last edited by Staggers; 3rd Oct 2017 at 00:18.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 17:26
  #710 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,348
Saw this online earlier from Aer Lingus:

#Monarch pilots: Let's talk! Hourly open information sessions for Airbus type-rated pilots. Radisson Manchester Airport, Tue 3 Oct, 9am-3pm

https://twitter.com/AerLingus/status/914886892436549632
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 17:55
  #711 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: DXB & FL 410
Posts: 922
Attn Monarch Pilots, Virgin Atlantic want to hear off you. Check out the recruitment page.
What a touch. Great work Virgin
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 18:14
  #712 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London UK
Posts: 6,304
Originally Posted by Homsap View Post
I don't understand the logic of sending six aircraft from to the UK surely they need to fly direct the destinations where pax need to leave, for example Tel Aviv to Luton? Can someone explain this?
I wouldn't fancy Qatar Airways (principal charter contributor) chances filing a flight plan from Doha to Tel Aviv
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 18:20
  #713 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 925
Titan doing today's Tel Aviv with the LTN going into STN
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 18:22
  #714 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Leeds
Posts: 39
Originally Posted by 01475 View Post
They can't be faulted for *lack* of patience with Monarch.

They were right, and even Monarch aren't saying they weren't. This show couldn't have lasted another year; there would have been a disorganised collapse at some random time.

It's sad nobody wanted to buy it. I'm wondering if something awful has been done to its assets (borrowing secured against slots or something like that), or if the industry really is in a *terrible* mess.
The CAA hasn't dictated the timeline. It's no coincidence its now - greybull wont want to stump up and additional payments if they think they wont get it back.


So the ATOL renewal at the end of Sept is at a time when Monarch have the most money - after a summer season which should be the busiest time for it and before the winter kicks in where the losses occur.

The end note from AS event states it was because of the projected loss rather then it has run out of money now.


There's some seriously unanswered questions about this.

Clearly ZB management knew about this days ago - they had to make price adjustments on Saturday to be live for Sunday. The CAA had a ton of information ready to go and had apparently been arranging flights since mid to late last week.

The shelfco setup etc

The airline even received offers - whats potentially sad is that it may have been bought or taken over but again greybull felt that it was worth more in scraps then selling nicely forgetting the staff etc.

Also if ZB knew on Saturday why was it still letting people turn up at airports - it had the Ibiza people partially on the plane - utter contempt for staff and passengers.

As the letter from AS - crowing about greybull - well he would given he'll still be on payroll for MAEL. Did he forget the courage of his staff taking massive cuts and pensions to save the business.

"The root cause terrorisim" - Seriously you cant make this up. Nothing about lack of direction, failure to respond to the market.

"We asked a respected aviation consulting firm to review how we could improve our short haul network" - More consultancy fees. After 50 years in business you'd think ZB could have some idea.

"At the same time we built our long haul plans and asked them to validate these plans, which they did, and agreed that they were attractive and viable" - This is LH which MON dumped only a couple of years earlier when they wanted to go head to head with the LCC's.

"Regrettably although there was considerable interest, there was no deliverable offer" - This is what makes me think Greybull decided it was worth more in bits rather then as a going concern. It got offers but just none that it accepted.

"I am so sorry that thousands now face a cancelled holiday or trip, possible delays getting home and huge inconvenience as a result of our failure" Yet they still let people go to the airports for departures on late Sunday and early Monday despite seemingly knowing what decision they'd made days earlier.

"You can all hold your heads up high and be proud of what you achieved at Monarch" Can greybull and management though?

Yet another business in the UK offloaded to private equity for a few quid or less only to be stripped apart once its been bled of anything of value. It will be very interesting to see what consultancy fees and payments end up going back to greybull - which i imagine wont end up with a loss when all said and done.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 18:24
  #715 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: South East.
Posts: 734
Monarch.

Originally Posted by wondrousbitofrough View Post
Not sure you have to bring innovation to the market to gain respect. What I had respect for when I worked there was the dedication to make things work whilst being professional at the same time. The fact that there was no 'them and us' between pilots, cabin crew and engineers meant that it was easy to work there.
WboR.

In total agreement with you and any other admirers of the airline. When I was in the business, Monarch were always regarded as a class act and many of us would have loved to fly for the airline, even disregarding their good T&Cs at the time.
Your comment about "making things workĒ is so true and didnít just apply within the Company.

On one occasion, I had an emergency job necessitating a trip through Russian airspace and we didnít have the charts in our library. I tried everybody, including Godís Lot. I was having no success until I popped on board a Monarch A300 and the skipper let me have his F/Oís copy. I dropped him a tenner to get his crew a drink.(Enough in those days !) and then charged my Company on my expenses !

Another case was the making up a lack of therapeutic oxygen bottles when we had a problem with a passenger on the way to TCI. We werenít going anywhere until we could make up the regulation requirement. It could have meant a VERY large bill for overnighting our pax and crew until a substitute aircraft arrived.

However, Monarch was our Handling Agent and Engineering backup when we were working out of Luton and, after a while, I nipped on to an arriving Monarch Airbus at TCI and posed the problem to my counterpart.
"Whatís the problem ? We have spares in the hold and enough to be legal for the return flight. Check it out with Engineering when youíre back at Luton."
So we were on our way with a minimum delay and fuss because of the calibre of crew that Monarch employed. Full marks.

No problem with Engineering at Luton either. Straight forward exchange of bottles for our next outbound and a signature. Monarch in my book were always an example of a good operator.

In comparison, I got a call from our own Engineering department a couple of weeks later asking why I hadnít put the serial numbers of the Monarch bottles in the Tech.Log. !!

I had no trouble in explaining, in words of one syllable, why some airlines, and the way their crews are allowed to operate, are good and others are a pain in the arse.

Thatís why itís such a shame that such fine airlines are allowed to go to the wall. I hope all accountants are listening.
Some reputations are made on more than a bl**dy balance sheet.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 18:31
  #716 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Coventry
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by In Mon I Trust View Post
It sure is, which is the only bit of good news to come out of Luton the last few days or another couple of UK airlines would be in trouble! A Virgin 787 in BHX plus all the Flybe work that is done by MAEL. I'd guess now their main customer at MAN and BHX is Flybe, the aircraft (and TUPE'd engineers) most of the original Monarchists couldn't stand.
Hopefully the engineering side will thrive its well regarded and has close ties with Boeing and is profitable ,Whether it stays independent or is sold is i suppose a matter for greybul who i presume still own the company
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 18:38
  #717 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Bucuresti
Posts: 48
Sigh; this is a depressing read. As a senior manager in a totally unrelated industry, I'm often called in to turn failing business units around, and without tooting my own horn too much, I usually do (although it usually takes longer than the people who ask me to want - they always want a quick fix, I consider it takes a minimum 6 months to effect any meaningful change, 12 to be ready to let the duckling fly on its own.)

Anyway, my philosophy is very simple - and incredibly, people rarely ask what it is (which is depressing in its own right.) But it is in a nutshell: "Treat people with respect, and trust they wouldn't be in the job in the first place if they didn't know what they're doing, so empower them to use their judgement. Do this, and they will usually repay you." Sounds like Monarch understood this. It's depressing because so few do.

(Don't get me wrong, it's not all flowers and teddy bears - the corollary is you've got to be ready to fire and fire quickly the ones who betray the trust, for the benefit of the team. But in my experience that's normally a very small minority.)
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 19:07
  #718 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: under the sea
Posts: 2,327
Originally Posted by EGGW View Post
Sad day for a once great company, 50 years with no hull loss. I hope the Montegazzas choke, whilst sipping their cocktails on the back of their Mega Yacht. You royally screwed so many loyal staff
The of Lugano screwed every penny out of it. Greybull just paid for three years of ITU care before the CAA called time on the corpse. Such a shame because it has been a brilliant company to work for, with an operational standard that was amongst the best.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 19:12
  #719 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: .
Posts: 2,923
Monarch Aircraft Engineering Limited (MAEL) becomes standalone company
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 19:15
  #720 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 123
Blame blame blame

The general public including myself is to blame.. can you really make money on all in holidays of 600gbp Or 700eur... blame management blame The investor... But The real problem.. us The passengers want to pay peanuts...
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