Snow cancelations Heathrow
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We had very little settling snow in Manchester (feel a little left out actually, the kids were anticipating a sledging session !)
How did yesterdays snow compare with the snow event which caused the shutdowns in previous years, was it different ?
Was the snow plan different this year ?
Public perceptions through media reporting really interests me, having watched the TV yesterday I think LHR's image came out unscathed as there was a big play on the new equipment doing its job, delays were actually caused by flow control implemented for runway clearance and visibility problems.
Well done BAA (or whatever you are called these days)
How did yesterdays snow compare with the snow event which caused the shutdowns in previous years, was it different ?
Was the snow plan different this year ?
Public perceptions through media reporting really interests me, having watched the TV yesterday I think LHR's image came out unscathed as there was a big play on the new equipment doing its job, delays were actually caused by flow control implemented for runway clearance and visibility problems.
Well done BAA (or whatever you are called these days)
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Having read lots of feeds from yesterday, it seems that many passengers were held in aircraft on the tarmac for several hours waiting to depart (one particular BA flight encurring horrendous 6 hr sit-in.) The reasons given were mainly due to waiting on de-icing machines, then slots. I have since found out that aircraft need to be de-iced every 30 mins whilst on ground, is this true? Surely if you know that the weather will be bad, the airline will make arrangements for more de-icers to be deployed, or was this the responsibility of BAA?
Perhaps shockingly, there were also tweets on passengers arriving who had to wait up to 2hrs before being allowed to leave the plane. (stands full apparently) Obviously these planes had to park up somewhere for a bit? Did BAA not think to send some of their buses to pick these people up?
My point is, even with the cancellations, they seemed wholly unprepared. Could they not have cancelled more flights? Could they not have diverted some to other airports? And why a 6 hr wait on a plane?
Perhaps shockingly, there were also tweets on passengers arriving who had to wait up to 2hrs before being allowed to leave the plane. (stands full apparently) Obviously these planes had to park up somewhere for a bit? Did BAA not think to send some of their buses to pick these people up?
My point is, even with the cancellations, they seemed wholly unprepared. Could they not have cancelled more flights? Could they not have diverted some to other airports? And why a 6 hr wait on a plane?
Last edited by dpconlan2011; 19th Jan 2013 at 11:46.
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It's disgraceful - the Met office have been forecasting this for over a week and yet no-one seems to have done anything
And don't tell me there is a Snow Plan - it 's the same every year it snows at LHR
And don't tell me there is a Snow Plan - it 's the same every year it snows at LHR
I have since found out that aircraft need to be de-iced every 30 mins whilst on ground, is this true?
on the aircraft covering this but ultimately it's the commanders decision as to whether the wings are "clean" or not.
Perhaps shockingly, there were also tweets on passengers arriving who had to wait up to 2hrs before being allowed to leave the plane. (stands full apparently) Obviously these planes had to park up somewhere for a bit? Did BAA not think to send some of their buses to pick these people up?
And why a 6 hr wait on a plane?
Outbound - you need to be in a position to go the minute you get a slot at the de-icing spot. It would be nice to tell the passengers - "stay in the terminal we'll come and get you as soon as we know our de-icing slot" - but slots for deicing were sometimes being given at fairly short notice - so you needed to be ready to move at short notice otherwise you'd go to the back of the queue.
Not pleasant I'd agree, but it's the old story of how much are you/I/the BAA prepared to pay to provide the resources?
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snow at LHR
It reinforces the need for a third and fourth rwy. Without these, LHR is operating at 99% capacity, so quite honestly, what can be expected in case of adverse weather conditions?
As for investment in Canadian or Scandinavian levels of snow clearing equipment, can it be justified for a few days of heavy snow in just 3-4 bad winters every 25 years? Is it a good use of money that could maybe be used for other infrastructure improvements on the airport?
It's the same argument for the roads and the railways.
As for investment in Canadian or Scandinavian levels of snow clearing equipment, can it be justified for a few days of heavy snow in just 3-4 bad winters every 25 years? Is it a good use of money that could maybe be used for other infrastructure improvements on the airport?
It's the same argument for the roads and the railways.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 19th Jan 2013 at 12:34.
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I was stuck on a plane on Friday morning for > 2 hours waiting to get off. There was a whopping 5-10mm of snow on the ground at most. The catalog of excuses provided via the flight crew was comical and the flight crew, although professional throughout, were clearly of the same view. LHR's operations team should be sacked on the spot.
LHR is a national joke and disgrace. You can make all the excuses you like (and boy do you like to make them from this thread) but they are just that, excuses. LHR is an amateur operation and the current operators do not deserve the right to operate it.
Pathetic, incompetent, unprepared, unable, useless.
LHR is a national joke and disgrace. You can make all the excuses you like (and boy do you like to make them from this thread) but they are just that, excuses. LHR is an amateur operation and the current operators do not deserve the right to operate it.
Pathetic, incompetent, unprepared, unable, useless.
IN-2012/181: UK Winter Runway Assessment Trial 2012/2013 Trial | Publications | About the CAA
LHR not in this so it's "back to black" I guess?
LHR not in this so it's "back to black" I guess?
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Public perceptions through media reporting really interests me, having watched the TV yesterday I think LHR's image came out unscathed as there was a big play on the new equipment doing its job, delays were actually caused by flow control implemented for runway clearance and visibility problems.
Last edited by Omnipresent; 19th Jan 2013 at 13:15.
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LHR disruption statement for 20th Jan
20% reduction in schedule
2cm to 6cm forecast snow with periodic low visibility throughout the day
20% reduction in schedule
2cm to 6cm forecast snow with periodic low visibility throughout the day
Interesting, the transport reporter for the BBC who was reporting on the snow delays at LHR and LGW a couple of years ago now works for BAA's PR department.
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fergusd has the answers...
Hey fergusd, clearly you have in-depth knowledge of the operation at LHR in order to identify who was to blame. Please share.
Which airline were you flying on Friday?
Which airline were you flying on Friday?
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I have just arrived Manchester on BA having connected through T5 at LHR. My original flight this morning into LGW was 5 hours delayed, I found this out yesterday evening but was not notified, despite BA having automated means to contact passengers in the event of flight disruptions by SMS or email - they had both forms of contact. Not only that, but I was not reaccommodated onto another connection.
The call centres in UK and Europe are closed outside office hours so I called the one in the USA. It took an hour to get to speak to someone, from which point things got better. The agent rebooked me on other flights via LHR, in fact the ones I originally wanted but didn't book as it was Ģ200 more expensive, giving me a scheduled arrival only a couple of hours later than my original plan. A good result under the circumstances.
The MAN flight was delayed about an hour, and under the circumstances I think BA did remarkably well.
The call centres in UK and Europe are closed outside office hours so I called the one in the USA. It took an hour to get to speak to someone, from which point things got better. The agent rebooked me on other flights via LHR, in fact the ones I originally wanted but didn't book as it was Ģ200 more expensive, giving me a scheduled arrival only a couple of hours later than my original plan. A good result under the circumstances.
The MAN flight was delayed about an hour, and under the circumstances I think BA did remarkably well.
And just for balance Geneva Cointrin has been closed for some hours today with diverted ac all over central Europe - so before we embark on national stereotypes it happens everywhere.
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I donīt know if anybody was watching Sky News earlier this evening when a director of the Airport Operators Association was being interviewed. What a shambles - no shirt, wearing a scruffy jumper and didnīt look old enough to vote! Praising Heathrow on how well they were coping and also telling everybody how well most of the other airports in the UK had coped (agree there). Stop moaning about Heathrow he said - I fear he may not be his job too long!
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Having operated to and worked at Heathrow extensively during the 2000s, I can tell you that it was a hotbed of ineptness, incompetence and inadequate preparation for anything non-standard, mainly displayed by the BAA/HAL and the ground handlers/their management. This does not include the ATC, of course. I see that it's still the same fun and games there.
Granted, the lack of capacity is a major issue, we're all aware of that, but there are also many more problems at all levels, e.g. lack of equipment and (competent) operators, and the ground handling generally being a shambles due to lack of staff. This is on an average day.
The issue is that everybody is desperately trying to cut costs to the absolute minimum, with these results.
I remember spending more or less the whole day at LHR due to lack of de-icing, to the point of being in danger of running out of hours, when it should have been a quick hop there and back. It was a loop of waiting an hour+ for deicing, waiting an hour for start-up, the pushback team leaving us, a passenger wanting to get off, us needing de-icing again and waiting an hour for it, and... so on. With nobody from the ground handlers knowing what was going on.
It's about time that the issue of snow/deicing was taken seriously by the BAA/HAL, who need to admit that a proper, remote de-icing setup is required in order not to have the airport descend into chaos every time it snows for more than 15 minutes. It is ridiculous to have to spend six hours on an aeroplane, on the ground.
The service isn't there because nobody is prepared to pay for it. The consumer demands cheaper fares and does not care about the consequences (a few days' disruption). Far easier to write it off as 'the wrong type of snow', 'we don't get snow here often' etc, etc, than to admit the need to invest in a competent de-icing operation.
Granted, the lack of capacity is a major issue, we're all aware of that, but there are also many more problems at all levels, e.g. lack of equipment and (competent) operators, and the ground handling generally being a shambles due to lack of staff. This is on an average day.
The issue is that everybody is desperately trying to cut costs to the absolute minimum, with these results.I remember spending more or less the whole day at LHR due to lack of de-icing, to the point of being in danger of running out of hours, when it should have been a quick hop there and back. It was a loop of waiting an hour+ for deicing, waiting an hour for start-up, the pushback team leaving us, a passenger wanting to get off, us needing de-icing again and waiting an hour for it, and... so on. With nobody from the ground handlers knowing what was going on.
It's about time that the issue of snow/deicing was taken seriously by the BAA/HAL, who need to admit that a proper, remote de-icing setup is required in order not to have the airport descend into chaos every time it snows for more than 15 minutes. It is ridiculous to have to spend six hours on an aeroplane, on the ground.
The service isn't there because nobody is prepared to pay for it. The consumer demands cheaper fares and does not care about the consequences (a few days' disruption). Far easier to write it off as 'the wrong type of snow', 'we don't get snow here often' etc, etc, than to admit the need to invest in a competent de-icing operation.
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instead of blocking stands waiting for de-icing, and then also having to de-ice planes more than once that still hand't moved, why doesn't BAA just de-ice planes on a taxiway once they are on the way to the runway.
That would free up stands and mean that planes would only be deiced when they were close to taking off.
It would also be a far more efficient use of de-icing personnel if you just had a permanent remote station they operated from
That would free up stands and mean that planes would only be deiced when they were close to taking off.
It would also be a far more efficient use of de-icing personnel if you just had a permanent remote station they operated from
Last edited by DISCOKID; 19th Jan 2013 at 20:47.
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why doesn't BAA just de-ice planes on a taxiway
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Top Gear?
I thought Clarkson and co had solved this issue with the converted combine harvestor and flame thrower?
Agree with old grouch, did a few years at Heathrow and airport barely copes even on a good day. Throw in snow and the BAA and it falls apart.
Agree with old grouch, did a few years at Heathrow and airport barely copes even on a good day. Throw in snow and the BAA and it falls apart.
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I thought Clarkson and co had solved this issue with the converted combine
harvestor and flame thrower?
harvestor and flame thrower?
