SOUTHEND - 4
Those certainly are excellent figures for May with total pax increasing by 34% compared to May last year.
I believe that the NQY started on 17th May and if so that would give a load factor above 80% which is surprisingly good. Also AMS is demonstrating SEN to be a very acceptable LON departure/arrival point with the third daily rotation proving a great success.
As for the share price UK investors are notoriously short-termist and it's no surprise that an airport growing a quickly as is SEN is currently doing no more than to break even at this stage in its development.
I believe that the NQY started on 17th May and if so that would give a load factor above 80% which is surprisingly good. Also AMS is demonstrating SEN to be a very acceptable LON departure/arrival point with the third daily rotation proving a great success.
As for the share price UK investors are notoriously short-termist and it's no surprise that an airport growing a quickly as is SEN is currently doing no more than to break even at this stage in its development.
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"Why are you comparing Stobart Ait (Aer Arann) to SEN terminal debit. Stobart air wont be paying it down, the airport chargers will pay it down. Personally 71,000 is good as they lost 1 or 1.5 million the year before."
Stobart Air is the name of the operating division at Stobart Group that runs Southend Airport.
"As for the share price UK investors are notoriously short-termist and it's no surprise that an airport growing a quickly as is SEN is currently doing no more than to break even at this stage in its development."
It's not breaking even, it's losing about £15m a year by my calculations, for the 2nd year running! A positive EBITDA is not a breakeven position. Airports such as Prestwick and Cardiff can make decent EBITDA profits with 1m pax - why not Southend?
P.S. Apologies if the quotes are pasted in incorrectly...
Stobart Air is the name of the operating division at Stobart Group that runs Southend Airport.
"As for the share price UK investors are notoriously short-termist and it's no surprise that an airport growing a quickly as is SEN is currently doing no more than to break even at this stage in its development."
It's not breaking even, it's losing about £15m a year by my calculations, for the 2nd year running! A positive EBITDA is not a breakeven position. Airports such as Prestwick and Cardiff can make decent EBITDA profits with 1m pax - why not Southend?
P.S. Apologies if the quotes are pasted in incorrectly...
Last edited by asdf1234; 16th Jun 2014 at 17:56.
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I seem to remember a couple of years ago when Easy started up at SEN they did voice concerns about flying into/out of uncontrolled air space. I wonder whether other airlines may be holding back awaiting the outcome of the application and have similar concerns. I know the airport is bound to say that it is in discussions with moire airlines re future services but wonder, if that is true, whether we may see more happening once controlled airspace is in place. Anyone any idea about how this is going and when, hopefully, it will be granted?
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Southend CAS
The Airport had a timetable to submit their proposals to the relevant authorities by the end of May 2014. I don't know if they managed this or not. The trouble they encountered was with the GA community which made a coherent argument for keeping the airspace as is. They pointed out that there is no new air traffic that warrants CAS over Southend, it is simply existing business diverted from Stansted because of the financial incentives offered to Easyjet by the owners of Southend Airport. Once the incentives disappear they argued that so will the traffic. The GA community referenced this argument to an article on the Telegraph to support their views that Easyjet were only at Southend because of the incentives and that Easyjet had not created any new routes as such.
The final decision is expected January 2015 if all parties adhere to the timetable.
The final decision is expected January 2015 if all parties adhere to the timetable.
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Who said they have a "downer" on SEN? asdf1234 is posting a point of fact, that happens to be correct.
EZY obviously got a better deal at SEN and traffic moved from STN to SEN and what's to stop that changing in future?
Whether people like that or not, that's the truth, it's just relocating, no "new" traffic at all. Full stop.
EZY obviously got a better deal at SEN and traffic moved from STN to SEN and what's to stop that changing in future?
Whether people like that or not, that's the truth, it's just relocating, no "new" traffic at all. Full stop.
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Who said they have a "downer" on SEN? asdf1234 is posting a point of fact, that happens to be correct.
EZY obviously got a better deal at SEN and traffic moved from STN to SEN. Whether people like that or not, that's the truth, it's just relocating, no "new" traffic at all. Full stop.
EZY obviously got a better deal at SEN and traffic moved from STN to SEN. Whether people like that or not, that's the truth, it's just relocating, no "new" traffic at all. Full stop.
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It would seem that SEN's recent rapid growth has rather raised the temperature of some of our more baleful contributors, causing some nasty cases of prickly heat.
Oh dear what a shame, never mind.
Good for you SEN!
Oh dear what a shame, never mind.
Good for you SEN!
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FratSTN -
What is your take on the provisional statistics for last month showing that Southend came oh so close to overhauling Stansted on the Amsterdam route? Interesting, eh?
And I think if one peruses asdf's previous posts via the "Find previous posts" option - one can see a certain pattern emerging. Or do you disagree?
What is your take on the provisional statistics for last month showing that Southend came oh so close to overhauling Stansted on the Amsterdam route? Interesting, eh?
And I think if one peruses asdf's previous posts via the "Find previous posts" option - one can see a certain pattern emerging. Or do you disagree?
FRatSTN
I really cannot see how you can claim that "there is no "new" traffic at all at SEN" and it has all simply transferred from STN. The figures simply don't support such a claim.
Take AMS for example where the May 2014 total for SEN and STN combined is 44,384 pax. Then look at May 2011 for STN, when there was no SEN competition, and you find the total was 25,392. Are you seriously suggesting that the STN-AMS route would have grown to anywhere near today's totals for the two airports? It looks to me that only about 2,000 pax could have been 'transferred' from STN to SEN from those figures.
I also wasn't aware that in 2012 STN had easyJet routes to JER, SXF, VCE and KRK for example, so how can that traffic have been 'transferred'.
I'm sure it is annoying for you to see SEN prospering to the extent that it currently is but ignoring the facts isn't going to change things.
I really cannot see how you can claim that "there is no "new" traffic at all at SEN" and it has all simply transferred from STN. The figures simply don't support such a claim.
Take AMS for example where the May 2014 total for SEN and STN combined is 44,384 pax. Then look at May 2011 for STN, when there was no SEN competition, and you find the total was 25,392. Are you seriously suggesting that the STN-AMS route would have grown to anywhere near today's totals for the two airports? It looks to me that only about 2,000 pax could have been 'transferred' from STN to SEN from those figures.
I also wasn't aware that in 2012 STN had easyJet routes to JER, SXF, VCE and KRK for example, so how can that traffic have been 'transferred'.
I'm sure it is annoying for you to see SEN prospering to the extent that it currently is but ignoring the facts isn't going to change things.
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It is without doubt that Easyjet bought up "GO" and the mad Irishman bought up "Buzz" to get in on the STN/Essex act and when SEN developed both would have wanted in on that act also ... except that only one had the appropriate size of equipment!
New CAS
Without fail every new application for CAS in the UK lower levels meets with the opposition of the g.a.organisations. There is nothing new in this. It is the CAA's remit as part of the airspace change procedure to ascertain that the needs of affected users are considered and accommodated as far as possible before new CAS is implemented. The g.a organisations cases are often of high quality and cogently argued (vide Farnborough) but historically only gain concessions, not block the whole process, once CAA is convinced of the need for new CAS.
An argument based on speculative tittle tattle about easyJet's financial arrangements and an article in the Daily Telegraph represents a lower level of quality than one has come to expect from the g.a.organisations. I cannot see it impressing CAA. If anything it could detract from the credibility of their valid points. But the reality is I am sure they do have many valid points to offer and that their submission was far more competent than implied by these posts.
An argument based on speculative tittle tattle about easyJet's financial arrangements and an article in the Daily Telegraph represents a lower level of quality than one has come to expect from the g.a.organisations. I cannot see it impressing CAA. If anything it could detract from the credibility of their valid points. But the reality is I am sure they do have many valid points to offer and that their submission was far more competent than implied by these posts.
Last edited by Tagron; 17th Jun 2014 at 15:05. Reason: Minor
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Thank You to those who have taken the time to raise further queries on the point's I have made. I will deal with each one in turn...
Phileas Fogg:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean? I assume by "mad Irishman's outfit" you mean FR and "a hill in Bedfordshire" you mean LTN. FR first moved to STN when it opened in 1991 and have had their main base there ever since whilst still maintaining a smaller base at LTN.
EZY started in LTN and is still one of their biggest bases so can't understand why you say they have "moved" from there to STN. STN came about with the acquisition of GO and have operated from both LTN and STN ever since, albeit still maintaining LTN as their bigger base of the two.
EssexMan61:
I doesn't surprise me in the slightest as the capacity on each route is now very similar at about 2 or 3 flights a day. If SEN was significantly lower than STN's stats then it would mean their average LF on the SEN - AMS route was much lower than from STN which would be concerning to say the least.
You seem to have this impression that I am completely against EZY serving SEN and want it to fail. That's incorrect. I believe SEN has a smaller catchment area than STN so is attracting more frequent custom from the same people when compared to STN as has been discussed countless times before.
As much as it may surprise you, I actually have a desire to see EZY be able to support a growing network at both SEN and STN, as well as their other LON airports which as of yet they haven't done.
Expressflight:
When we say no "new" traffic we mean on a statistical basis and taking into account the total quantity of traffic, regardless of which routes are flown. You cannot pick a certain route to try and make a point that isn't true. Indeed AMS has seen substantial increases since it has gone from up to 4 daily flights from STN I believe in 2011, up to 6 flights a day (3 each from STN and SEN) currently. Other routes in that context have seen reductions, including ALC, BCN and FAO as examples.
And indeed EZY never operated JER, SXF, VCE and KRK from STN but that's irrelevant in the context we are speaking. You are getting confused between the meaning of "routes" and "traffic" in which the latter is what we're referring to. This should hopefully make it clearer: The total amount of "traffic" across all flights and routes added to SEN is still less than the number lost from STN since 2011/12, therefore SEN has bought no "traffic" growth, just a relocating of EZY's assets.
Phileas Fogg:
Why did both the mad Irishman's outfit and Easyjet move from a hill in Bedfordshire to STN?
EZY started in LTN and is still one of their biggest bases so can't understand why you say they have "moved" from there to STN. STN came about with the acquisition of GO and have operated from both LTN and STN ever since, albeit still maintaining LTN as their bigger base of the two.
EssexMan61:
What is your take on the provisional statistics for last month showing that Southend came oh so close to overhauling Stansted on the Amsterdam route?
You seem to have this impression that I am completely against EZY serving SEN and want it to fail. That's incorrect. I believe SEN has a smaller catchment area than STN so is attracting more frequent custom from the same people when compared to STN as has been discussed countless times before.
As much as it may surprise you, I actually have a desire to see EZY be able to support a growing network at both SEN and STN, as well as their other LON airports which as of yet they haven't done.
Expressflight:
When we say no "new" traffic we mean on a statistical basis and taking into account the total quantity of traffic, regardless of which routes are flown. You cannot pick a certain route to try and make a point that isn't true. Indeed AMS has seen substantial increases since it has gone from up to 4 daily flights from STN I believe in 2011, up to 6 flights a day (3 each from STN and SEN) currently. Other routes in that context have seen reductions, including ALC, BCN and FAO as examples.
And indeed EZY never operated JER, SXF, VCE and KRK from STN but that's irrelevant in the context we are speaking. You are getting confused between the meaning of "routes" and "traffic" in which the latter is what we're referring to. This should hopefully make it clearer: The total amount of "traffic" across all flights and routes added to SEN is still less than the number lost from STN since 2011/12, therefore SEN has bought no "traffic" growth, just a relocating of EZY's assets.
FRatSTN
"This should hopefully make it clearer".
Er.... No.
If STN-AMS really was 4 x daily in May 2011 then only 25,392 pax that month seems to demonstrate that STN was not the airport of choice for many travellers so perhaps SEN was a breath of fresh air for many when it came on stream in 2012.
"This should hopefully make it clearer".
Er.... No.
If STN-AMS really was 4 x daily in May 2011 then only 25,392 pax that month seems to demonstrate that STN was not the airport of choice for many travellers so perhaps SEN was a breath of fresh air for many when it came on stream in 2012.
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I think I've pointed out before that I want to see SEN prosper but for it to do so needs an approach by the owners that caters for all users of the airport. I want this as that it is the only way for an airport such as SEN to prosper long term.
And I do admit to being fed up with people who think an airport is successful because pax throughput increases. I could deliver 2m pax at SEN almost overnight by waiving all landing/handling fees and providing free parking and teas for the pax. Huge pax growth but no income - is that success? Quote clearly it isn't and my concern is that the 1m pax at SEN today deliver just 7p profit each to the owners. That isn't success.
Happy to applaud meaningful success but I won't jump up and down with delight because Stobart invited Easyjet to the airport on a freebie.
Still a SEN supporter who wants to see the airport prosper longterm.
And I do admit to being fed up with people who think an airport is successful because pax throughput increases. I could deliver 2m pax at SEN almost overnight by waiving all landing/handling fees and providing free parking and teas for the pax. Huge pax growth but no income - is that success? Quote clearly it isn't and my concern is that the 1m pax at SEN today deliver just 7p profit each to the owners. That isn't success.
Happy to applaud meaningful success but I won't jump up and down with delight because Stobart invited Easyjet to the airport on a freebie.
Still a SEN supporter who wants to see the airport prosper longterm.