Ryanair - 9
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My curiosity is that while easy jet's problem has been discussed, and it was done so in connection wth explanations for its falling share price, all the other airlines, e.g. RYR seem to have escaped such analysis.
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Ever get the impression that Ryanair feel they are above the law?
Ryanair rejects UK court jurisdiction on passenger compensation
Ryanair rejects UK court jurisdiction on passenger compensation
Refusing to accept the jurisdiction of a court is usually treated by a court as contempt and will also not make the regulators happy. I expect this may be being done with a view to Brexit. I hope Ryanair know what they are doing and that their legal team have a good basis in law for this.
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What happens if the passenger wins the case in Liverpool and Ryanair continue to snub the courts? Next time a Ryanair flight lands in Liverpool and the High Court sheriffs remove all the plane's paperwork etc there would be some loud wailing. "Give us our plane back!" "Pay the lady and you can have it".
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Just O`Leary testing the waters again.He will have taken extensive legal advice beforehand. This is a case going to be heard at a Liverpool County Court but not until April next year. Win or lose one side or the other will pursue it to the Supreme Court( maybe even the European Court) which will take years.At the present time though, his statement re the courts would not constitute contempt, nor will it, until all such legal avenues have been pursued.
By that time, the terms and conditions of Brexit will have been formulated and maybe even implemented. At that point, his lawyers will revisit such cases again in the light of circumstances then prevailing.
Or if you prefer just another O`Leary stalling tactic..
By that time, the terms and conditions of Brexit will have been formulated and maybe even implemented. At that point, his lawyers will revisit such cases again in the light of circumstances then prevailing.
Or if you prefer just another O`Leary stalling tactic..
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Back to the AOC question and Brexit. Please correct me if I'm wrong: after UK is no longer an EU state I'm assuming there is no right for an EU based airline to operate from a UK base to EU and internally within UK. If an airline has a/c based within UK, permanently, they would require a UK registered company and an UK AOC. That would bring the UK company under the jurisdiction of the UK CAA and the operation of employment under the jurisdiction of the UK Inland Revenue. Both might cause some rethinking on the part of current RYR policies. Further, how would that affect the a/c used on that AOC? Would they need to be G reg? At the moment RYR had nearly 100 a/c based in UK, but they are forever changing as a/c are rotated through engineering bases from over seas. On an UK AOC would the registration, if not G, need to be declared and fixed. Leasing a/c from EI is no problem, but they might need to declared and fixed in UK.
How does that affect oversight? If the a/c remain EI does IAA have oversight of the a/c and maintenance, but UK CAA have oversight of the operational aspects?
It would seem odd if things can remain as they are; but it has not been mentioned at all. If HRMG IR have an oversight of employment structures for a UK based airline it could open up an interesting can of worms.
If RYR tries to keep the a/c EI reg, but the airline has to have a UK registered company, how will that affect the concept of pax being on EI territory and therefore under EI law, but operating on a UK AOC?
I'm just curious why the issue has been ignored. Nearly 25% of RYR a/c are UK based and therefore so are its crews.
How does that affect oversight? If the a/c remain EI does IAA have oversight of the a/c and maintenance, but UK CAA have oversight of the operational aspects?
It would seem odd if things can remain as they are; but it has not been mentioned at all. If HRMG IR have an oversight of employment structures for a UK based airline it could open up an interesting can of worms.
If RYR tries to keep the a/c EI reg, but the airline has to have a UK registered company, how will that affect the concept of pax being on EI territory and therefore under EI law, but operating on a UK AOC?
I'm just curious why the issue has been ignored. Nearly 25% of RYR a/c are UK based and therefore so are its crews.
Simple answer is - nobody knows.
If it's a Hard "cut all ties" Brexit it might end up as you describe, but we might also end up with a Soft Brexit where nothing much changes, and any number of mix'n'match options in between.
It will all be part of the negotiations after Article 50 is invoked. The issue hasn't been ignored (plenty of discussion on these forums), but everybody is guessing cos its never happened before. Air transport arrangements won't be at the top of the Governments "to do" list (it'll be behind things like immigration and trade...).
There's an awful lot to be done in two years.
If it's a Hard "cut all ties" Brexit it might end up as you describe, but we might also end up with a Soft Brexit where nothing much changes, and any number of mix'n'match options in between.
It will all be part of the negotiations after Article 50 is invoked. The issue hasn't been ignored (plenty of discussion on these forums), but everybody is guessing cos its never happened before. Air transport arrangements won't be at the top of the Governments "to do" list (it'll be behind things like immigration and trade...).
There's an awful lot to be done in two years.
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The issue hasn't been ignored (plenty of discussion on these forums), but everybody is guessing cos its never happened before.
My comment was motivated after comments in Daily T business section about easyjet future difficulties after the Brexit vote. Their share price crashed after the vote and a contributory factor was mentioned as the difficulty it was going to have with its EU bases on an UK AOC and the uncertainty that created. There is talk that it has identified a solution to that. If the financial commentators, and market makers, were concerned about this effect on easyjet why have they not expressed concern on the mirror problems and uncertainties it should cause to operators e.g. RYR and its UK bases? At the time it was perceived that easyjet would have major problems there was no discussion about hard/soft Brexit, it was simply about the necessity and difficulty in establishing an EU based AOC and uncertainties. If the markets consider that true for one why is it not true for all?
My comment was motivated after comments in Daily T business section about easyjet future difficulties after the Brexit vote. Their share price crashed after the vote and a contributory factor was mentioned as the difficulty it was going to have with its EU bases on an UK AOC and the uncertainty that created. There is talk that it has identified a solution to that. If the financial commentators, and market makers, were concerned about this effect on easyjet why have they not expressed concern on the mirror problems and uncertainties it should cause to operators e.g. RYR and its UK bases? At the time it was perceived that easyjet would have major problems there was no discussion about hard/soft Brexit, it was simply about the necessity and difficulty in establishing an EU based AOC and uncertainties. If the markets consider that true for one why is it not true for all?
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I don't see major problems for UK based operating in Europe or European operating within the UK. OpenSkies is something which the UK and Europe will keep. Yes Easyjet are more exposed if things go really wrong hence the increased discussion. With FR it's just 3 routes......
I also don't see the court case as Brexit motivated, just cut the middle man out. No different to them not liking third parties selling flights on behalf of them without agreement. The ruling will be interesting!
I also don't see the court case as Brexit motivated, just cut the middle man out. No different to them not liking third parties selling flights on behalf of them without agreement. The ruling will be interesting!
Last edited by Jamie2k9; 18th Dec 2016 at 23:40.
My curiosity is that while easy jet's problem has been discussed, and it was done so in connection wth explanations for its falling share price, all the other airlines, e.g. RYR seem to have escaped such analysis.
Back to the AOC question and Brexit. Please correct me if I'm wrong: after UK is no longer an EU state I'm assuming there is no right for an EU based airline to operate from a UK base to EU and internally within UK. If an airline has a/c based within UK, permanently, they would require a UK registered company and an UK AOC. That would bring the UK company under the jurisdiction of the UK CAA and the operation of employment under the jurisdiction of the UK Inland Revenue. Both might cause some rethinking on the part of current RYR policies. Further, how would that affect the a/c used on that AOC? Would they need to be G reg? At the moment RYR had nearly 100 a/c based in UK, but they are forever changing as a/c are rotated through engineering bases from over seas. On an UK AOC would the registration, if not G, need to be declared and fixed. Leasing a/c from EI is no problem, but they might need to declared and fixed in UK.
How does that affect oversight? If the a/c remain EI does IAA have oversight of the a/c and maintenance, but UK CAA have oversight of the operational aspects?
It would seem odd if things can remain as they are; but it has not been mentioned at all. If HRMG IR have an oversight of employment structures for a UK based airline it could open up an interesting can of worms.
If RYR tries to keep the a/c EI reg, but the airline has to have a UK registered company, how will that affect the concept of pax being on EI territory and therefore under EI law, but operating on a UK AOC?
I'm just curious why the issue has been ignored. Nearly 25% of RYR a/c are UK based and therefore so are its crews.
How does that affect oversight? If the a/c remain EI does IAA have oversight of the a/c and maintenance, but UK CAA have oversight of the operational aspects?
It would seem odd if things can remain as they are; but it has not been mentioned at all. If HRMG IR have an oversight of employment structures for a UK based airline it could open up an interesting can of worms.
If RYR tries to keep the a/c EI reg, but the airline has to have a UK registered company, how will that affect the concept of pax being on EI territory and therefore under EI law, but operating on a UK AOC?
I'm just curious why the issue has been ignored. Nearly 25% of RYR a/c are UK based and therefore so are its crews.
Issue with AOC and operating aircraft would mean every airline that leases in aircarft anywhere in the world would be required to change the registration each and every time.
Can't see it occuring unless CAA get loads more people.
As for HMRC it is quite probable that the where employees are actually working will have been sorted out well before Brexit. UK Holiday companys really going to love that one as their reps are UK employed.
If a separate Operating company is required then easily done and then parent company charges its own leasing rates.
In short the lawyers will sort it out but no doubt some brexiters in Govt will look to screw anything foreign without realising that BA and LHR is a big target in response.
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Does anyone know what Ryanair SOPs are for deicing?
The temperature was 1-2 °C with some very light snow flurries. The only airline getting aircraft deiced on departure was Ryanair (despite short turnarounds, when other aircraft departing without deicing had had their aircraft on the ground for significantly longer).
The temperature was 1-2 °C with some very light snow flurries. The only airline getting aircraft deiced on departure was Ryanair (despite short turnarounds, when other aircraft departing without deicing had had their aircraft on the ground for significantly longer).
Does anyone know what Ryanair SOPs are for deicing?
The temperature was 1-2 °C with some very light snow flurries. The only airline getting aircraft deiced on departure was Ryanair (despite short turnarounds, when other aircraft departing without deicing had had their aircraft on the ground for significantly longer).
The temperature was 1-2 °C with some very light snow flurries. The only airline getting aircraft deiced on departure was Ryanair (despite short turnarounds, when other aircraft departing without deicing had had their aircraft on the ground for significantly longer).
Probably one where call is made by local base ops or where it is not a base by Captain with emphasis on "If in doubt do it............... and then a Pilot doesn't has to justify why not".
Course story in Daily Fail will be Ryanair needlessly polluting water courses and they using cheap anti freeze...................... or Austrian Wine for those old enough to remember.
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The Commander is responsible for the state of the aircraft, and the de-ice/anti-ice instructions are determined by the manufacturer and its overseeing authority. The authority of registration will also have a say and of course the company may require more stringent policy, but never less.
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Ryanir used to and may still have a UK based subsidiary, Ryanair UK which was created to allow STN-PIK to be launched. It was a paperwork exercise in the end as Ryanair launched with their own metal but Plan A was leasing in a GB Airways (?) B732 to launch the service. Of course they also had Ryanair Europe based at Luton, the former London European Airways.