DONCASTER SHEFFIELD
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"Sure Peel will want to develop the land around the airport (again look at LPL), but it's worth more with an airport than without it."
Peel bought SZD closed it and found it was worth more without a runway.
"Sure Peel will want to develop the land around the airport (again look at LPL), but it's worth more with an airport than without it."
Peel bought SZD closed it and found it was worth more without a runway.
How far is SZD from the commercial centre of Sheffield ?
How far is DSA from the commercial centre of Doncaster ?
Looking at the location of the 2 airports, which is likely to have higher land values in the event that DSA were to close ?
Of Sheffield and Doncaster, which has the bigger population and which has more commerce going on ?
How far is DSA from the commercial centre of Doncaster ?
Looking at the location of the 2 airports, which is likely to have higher land values in the event that DSA were to close ?
Of Sheffield and Doncaster, which has the bigger population and which has more commerce going on ?
Quote
"Sure Peel will want to develop the land around the airport (again look at LPL), but it's worth more with an airport than without it."
Peel bought SZD closed it and found it was worth more without a runway.
"Sure Peel will want to develop the land around the airport (again look at LPL), but it's worth more with an airport than without it."
Peel bought SZD closed it and found it was worth more without a runway.
In my view LPL is the model for what Peel wanted to do at DSA and MME i.e. develop the surrounding land and take the traffic that was at the time being neglected by the local rival mainstream airports (MAN, LBA, NCL) i.e. loco and freight. Times have changed but for both DSA and MME, the development opportunities are better centred around a thriving airport. The interesting bit is how long Peel are prepared to stand the loses until the market comes back to them.
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Let's not forget DSA is still is a functioning regional airport with c 3/4 million passengers a year. That is not to be sneezed at ...
The aviation industry is only just starting to show glimmers of growth. European airlines are starting to order aircraft and open new routes for the first time in a major way for years.
Personally, I think DSA will have it's time? Why? Because:
1. It takes time. Look at STN, it sat there empty for years and years until it got its big break
2. Timing was pants, the economic cycle, logistical issues all played a part of capping growth in the short term at DSA. But we can take a more mid to long term view ...
However, I do think the problem is a chicken vs egg one. In my opinion DSA needs a core 'bread and butter' market that is not reliant on charters / leisure flights to underpin it. This is what keeps the place going in the 'leisure quiet' months (winter). The problem here is, although there is a sizeable population for which DSA is by far the most convenient airport, the economy is not quite at a level where it can sustain a more business focused operation (e.g., routes like AMS, BHD, CDG, and other key business centres).
Here is the chicken and egg - the economy won't attract the inward investment it needs without the connectivity, and the airlines won't stump up the routes without the market activity. So, in the short term without intervention, companies will continue to go to invest in Manchester, Leeds and beyond.
Now, if you ask me, if the local and regional councils really wanted to help DSA, they should be offering support to develop a useful network on flights that will support economic growth, then, and I think only then, will the South Yorkshire region attract the inward investment it so desperately needs, and start to address the unbalance of economic activity across that whole region. Let us not forget South Yorkshire is technically a deprived region ...
This was the case that was argued at the planning inquiry for Finningley as it then was, alas circumstances change and the airport made the investment but the external support was not there as much as it perhaps could have been. And here I have to say, the airport is 100% right about the link road. Without fast road access to Sheffield, the airport will always lose out to LBA and MAN. The bigger issue though, as I said above, is that without the link road, and some useful business routes at DSA, Sheffield city will continue to lose out Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Bristol etc as they just don't have the option to connect to international markets quickly and easy.
The argument for reopening Sheffield City is sweet but I think that ship has sailed. I was upset when SZD closed as I think location it was probably the best bet, but with a 1200m runway you're pushed to get a Q400 in, and so unless they can add 600m to the runway (which they can't) then I think it's a dream.
Make the most of DSA, and if the local, city and regional councils really want it to work, I don't think it's beyond the wit of man to make something happen ...
The aviation industry is only just starting to show glimmers of growth. European airlines are starting to order aircraft and open new routes for the first time in a major way for years.
Personally, I think DSA will have it's time? Why? Because:
1. It takes time. Look at STN, it sat there empty for years and years until it got its big break
2. Timing was pants, the economic cycle, logistical issues all played a part of capping growth in the short term at DSA. But we can take a more mid to long term view ...
However, I do think the problem is a chicken vs egg one. In my opinion DSA needs a core 'bread and butter' market that is not reliant on charters / leisure flights to underpin it. This is what keeps the place going in the 'leisure quiet' months (winter). The problem here is, although there is a sizeable population for which DSA is by far the most convenient airport, the economy is not quite at a level where it can sustain a more business focused operation (e.g., routes like AMS, BHD, CDG, and other key business centres).
Here is the chicken and egg - the economy won't attract the inward investment it needs without the connectivity, and the airlines won't stump up the routes without the market activity. So, in the short term without intervention, companies will continue to go to invest in Manchester, Leeds and beyond.
Now, if you ask me, if the local and regional councils really wanted to help DSA, they should be offering support to develop a useful network on flights that will support economic growth, then, and I think only then, will the South Yorkshire region attract the inward investment it so desperately needs, and start to address the unbalance of economic activity across that whole region. Let us not forget South Yorkshire is technically a deprived region ...
This was the case that was argued at the planning inquiry for Finningley as it then was, alas circumstances change and the airport made the investment but the external support was not there as much as it perhaps could have been. And here I have to say, the airport is 100% right about the link road. Without fast road access to Sheffield, the airport will always lose out to LBA and MAN. The bigger issue though, as I said above, is that without the link road, and some useful business routes at DSA, Sheffield city will continue to lose out Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Bristol etc as they just don't have the option to connect to international markets quickly and easy.
The argument for reopening Sheffield City is sweet but I think that ship has sailed. I was upset when SZD closed as I think location it was probably the best bet, but with a 1200m runway you're pushed to get a Q400 in, and so unless they can add 600m to the runway (which they can't) then I think it's a dream.
Make the most of DSA, and if the local, city and regional councils really want it to work, I don't think it's beyond the wit of man to make something happen ...
Join Date: Oct 2012
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cumbrianboy, that's the most sensible post I've seen on here for a long time.
Some regional airports would love to have 650k+ passengers a year. Yet, some people (the FSB in particular) think this is a failure. I think the FSB forget that Sheffield City only managed 70k in its busiest year (pre-Peel BTW). So it's puzzling why they are gloating about DSA's drop in passenger numbers and wishing to resurrect SZD.
I think the biggest mistake that DSA made was relying on Thomson Fly as a launch airline. They had routes to "business destinations", like Amsterdam, at launch - I flew that route several times and the load factor must have been approaching 100%. And I regularly flew to Spain for £8 each way from DSA (including taxes and fees). Unfortunately, Thomson Fly changed their business model after a couple of years and replaced low cost with charter and prices increased sharply. At the same time, APD was rising fast and the economy dropping like a stone. All of these factors together had a big impact on passenger numbers.
blackbeard1, an airport with only 45k passengers and zero cargo potential is surely going to be worth more without an airport than with it. DSA on the other hand has much more potential with the airport open. A significant proportion of the business park is occupied by aircraft related businesses, who would leave if the airport was to close.
Some regional airports would love to have 650k+ passengers a year. Yet, some people (the FSB in particular) think this is a failure. I think the FSB forget that Sheffield City only managed 70k in its busiest year (pre-Peel BTW). So it's puzzling why they are gloating about DSA's drop in passenger numbers and wishing to resurrect SZD.
I think the biggest mistake that DSA made was relying on Thomson Fly as a launch airline. They had routes to "business destinations", like Amsterdam, at launch - I flew that route several times and the load factor must have been approaching 100%. And I regularly flew to Spain for £8 each way from DSA (including taxes and fees). Unfortunately, Thomson Fly changed their business model after a couple of years and replaced low cost with charter and prices increased sharply. At the same time, APD was rising fast and the economy dropping like a stone. All of these factors together had a big impact on passenger numbers.
blackbeard1, an airport with only 45k passengers and zero cargo potential is surely going to be worth more without an airport than with it. DSA on the other hand has much more potential with the airport open. A significant proportion of the business park is occupied by aircraft related businesses, who would leave if the airport was to close.
Last edited by wb9999; 24th Jun 2013 at 09:59.
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wb9999, have you heard about Manchester City Airport and Heliport?
City Airport and Heliport
Peel seem to be happy to promote that with a short runway and zero cargo but then they don't own the local international airport.
City Airport and Heliport
Peel seem to be happy to promote that with a short runway and zero cargo but then they don't own the local international airport.
ILS32
For the number of postings you make on this thread about this airport I was surprised to see you weren't aware of the AN124 movements. With no disrespect to you,
I'd have thought you would have been better researched, (see penultimate sentence).
I'm not at all surprised however to read
from someone who clearly doesn't do any serious research on the traffic mix at DSA
. Unfortunately this attitude is all too common on these airport threads (for all airports), but particularly prevalent here.
The DFP article as usual, is virtually incoherent with random unrelated stats. If a scribbler sent that to me to be run as an article it would have been handed back to them rolled into a tight tube with further instructions, and their career would be nosediving at a greater rate than 0.7 %.
Another AN124 at the airport as I went past today.
Go figure.
For the number of postings you make on this thread about this airport I was surprised to see you weren't aware of the AN124 movements. With no disrespect to you,
I'd have thought you would have been better researched, (see penultimate sentence).I'm not at all surprised however to read
I think the fact the airport virtually lies still from dawn to dusk also gives an even worse impression on the level of traffic
. Unfortunately this attitude is all too common on these airport threads (for all airports), but particularly prevalent here.The DFP article as usual, is virtually incoherent with random unrelated stats. If a scribbler sent that to me to be run as an article it would have been handed back to them rolled into a tight tube with further instructions, and their career would be nosediving at a greater rate than 0.7 %
. Another AN124 at the airport as I went past today.
Go figure.
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Well jumpseater I also was surprised as the above quote is not one of mine.The reference to the DFP article again has nothing to do with me.
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I remember when DSA first opened, there were loads of stories about about jumbos etc. flying all over the place. Those involved at the time were saying DSA had longest runway in the country etc which of course is nonsense. They believed is was enough for DSA to just wave it's big willy and the airlines would flock to DSA.
There must have been no aviation professionals involved at time as most people would have known, people make airports not runways.
A certain magazine was convinced at the time. I wrote to them and expressed the views above, of course, nobody agreed with with me as they were all wrapped up in the euphoria.
wawkrk
There must have been no aviation professionals involved at time as most people would have known, people make airports not runways.
A certain magazine was convinced at the time. I wrote to them and expressed the views above, of course, nobody agreed with with me as they were all wrapped up in the euphoria.
wawkrk
DSA won't be publishing passengers numbers any longer for some reason.
Presumably you are talking about the absence of details from the CAA's provisional stats for June?
If so, there could be many reasons why they haven't appeared yet, or do you know for certain that Peel have decided not to submit figures to the CAA? or just stirring??
If so, there could be many reasons why they haven't appeared yet, or do you know for certain that Peel have decided not to submit figures to the CAA? or just stirring??
Apart from Doncaster and Durham Tees Valley, the CAA has not yet published provisional dtats for Inverness, Prestwick or many of the Scottish island airports. Suggest waiting until either Friday 26 July or Friday 2 August to see if next CAA updates contain the numbers. The CAA provides some good stats saying how many weeks it takes to publish all airports.