New Thames Airport for London
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Quite right Skipness One Echo, none of them has had a "proper" job in the real world, or as Ken Livingstone would say, none of them has ever "run anything".
They've also proved useless at law-making (look at all the unintended consequences that arise from their rubbish legislation) and/or useless at journalism (look at the sloppiness involved)!
They've also proved useless at law-making (look at all the unintended consequences that arise from their rubbish legislation) and/or useless at journalism (look at the sloppiness involved)!
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 26th Jan 2013 at 14:22.
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S.O.E.
Today I was chatting to a clsoe relative of mine who works in the transport arrangements for London. I cannot say more precisely as I do not want to narrow the field as not many work where they do. But my relative has been involved in London engineering projects, inc CrossRail, for many years.
I asked about STN being given a try? The reply was, "NO. Boris has not given up on the island and is just trying to frighten the natives of STN land."
It seems BoJo has had a bite of reality on the sadly immense costs of the estuary project. He is now backing Stansted, which would mean closing Heathrow in favour of Stansted. It's just tragic IMHO.
I asked about STN being given a try? The reply was, "NO. Boris has not given up on the island and is just trying to frighten the natives of STN land."
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FDF
look at all the unintended consequences that arise from their rubbish legislation
What I cannot understand about any of these proposals is that transport infrastructure, both road and rail, would have to be provided; as well as all sorts of stuff about disturbing birds and unexploded bombs! If they can't get HS2 operational till 2025, what hope have they with this? The problem of airport capacity needs resolving now and rapidly - and the best solution lies at LHR.
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Quote: "Is this a reference to an increase in flytipping or just a generality? 
Oh, very good, ha ha! but yes, it is a case in point. Won't expand and bang on about the EU's intereference role in rubbish disposal, it could be construed as "thread drift".
Quote: "What I cannot understand about any of these proposals is that transport infrastructure, both road and rail, would have to be provided; as well as all sorts of stuff about disturbing birds and unexploded bombs! If they can't get HS2 operational till 2025, what hope have they with this? The problem of airport capacity needs resolving now and rapidly - and the best solution lies at LHR."
Spot on, agree 100%, but HS2 will not be running in 2025, and that's a "cast-iron" guarantee! It's just like Call-me-dave's "cast-iron" guarantee on the EU referendum (the first one)!
Oh, very good, ha ha! but yes, it is a case in point. Won't expand and bang on about the EU's intereference role in rubbish disposal, it could be construed as "thread drift".
Quote: "What I cannot understand about any of these proposals is that transport infrastructure, both road and rail, would have to be provided; as well as all sorts of stuff about disturbing birds and unexploded bombs! If they can't get HS2 operational till 2025, what hope have they with this? The problem of airport capacity needs resolving now and rapidly - and the best solution lies at LHR."
Spot on, agree 100%, but HS2 will not be running in 2025, and that's a "cast-iron" guarantee! It's just like Call-me-dave's "cast-iron" guarantee on the EU referendum (the first one)!
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I keep banging my head against the wall BUT ......another RW at LHR will soak up about 2 years growth max, plus do you really want another landing runway over London.
Few siren voices who have no clue what they are talking about saying we must build it now etc etc etc yawn...
....er what about safety.
I know it's a dirty word but I just cannot see how we an possibly cram more runways into such a congested area of airspace.
It's funny I have seen about three of the Transport Select Committee meetings featuring the great and the good from industry but not one person from NATS or ATC !
Another runway would go straight over the centre of the Capital !
Plus all the SIDs etc all criss cross overhead because we now have 5 major airports all vying for a slice of the action.....utter utter madness !
OK build 3 or 4 RWs at LHR but surely we should be shutting the other airports down...of course that cannot happen !
ITS A TOTAL AND UTTER PIGS BREAKFAST!
Few siren voices who have no clue what they are talking about saying we must build it now etc etc etc yawn...
....er what about safety.
I know it's a dirty word but I just cannot see how we an possibly cram more runways into such a congested area of airspace.
It's funny I have seen about three of the Transport Select Committee meetings featuring the great and the good from industry but not one person from NATS or ATC !
Another runway would go straight over the centre of the Capital !
Plus all the SIDs etc all criss cross overhead because we now have 5 major airports all vying for a slice of the action.....utter utter madness !
OK build 3 or 4 RWs at LHR but surely we should be shutting the other airports down...of course that cannot happen !
ITS A TOTAL AND UTTER PIGS BREAKFAST!
Last edited by Bagso; 27th Jan 2013 at 09:46.
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Bagso the modelling was done by NATS before Geoff Hoon gave the go ahead a few years back. LHR arrivals already fly over Central London on a daily basis.
What about safety? It's a managed risk, the things our parents were OK with but we get hysterical about. The helicopter crash at Vauxhall was a media hysteria fest.
Heathrow won't be getting much more airspace. Also SIDS are not on top of each other, departures are sequenced so you get a Northbound then a straight ahead, then either a northbound or a southbound for maximum runway capacity. The key is not having two consecutive departures on the same SID or you need increased spacing. This is unlike most other UK airports where most SIDS only go south or east and occasionally west. A model to maximise departure runway use and capacity was part of the case put to the DfT at the time.
As for runway three only giving two years growth, not sure how you come to that. They need to build T6 to get real growth as T2 will see the central area maxed out again.
What about safety? It's a managed risk, the things our parents were OK with but we get hysterical about. The helicopter crash at Vauxhall was a media hysteria fest.
Heathrow won't be getting much more airspace. Also SIDS are not on top of each other, departures are sequenced so you get a Northbound then a straight ahead, then either a northbound or a southbound for maximum runway capacity. The key is not having two consecutive departures on the same SID or you need increased spacing. This is unlike most other UK airports where most SIDS only go south or east and occasionally west. A model to maximise departure runway use and capacity was part of the case put to the DfT at the time.
As for runway three only giving two years growth, not sure how you come to that. They need to build T6 to get real growth as T2 will see the central area maxed out again.
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 27th Jan 2013 at 10:57.
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Forget Silver-Foster, according to todays' Daily Wail website, Spiney Norman is more interested in building a hub, (sorry, a hut), on The Moon. 
Boris was photographed atop The Shard, anxiously peering through the murk in the hope of spotting sites for new airports.
Boris was photographed atop The Shard, anxiously peering through the murk in the hope of spotting sites for new airports.
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It's funny I have seen about three of the Transport Select Committee meetings featuring the great and the good from industry but not one person from NATS or ATC !
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"two of its directors gave evidence in December".
Like Bagso said...
"not one person from ATC".
Like Bagso said...
"not one person from ATC".
Architects don't barge into the cockpit telling the pilot how to fly the plane, so should ATC and pilots tell architects and planners how to plan airports? Well given our track record, maybe they should!
The thing about Foster is that he is at least a pilot himself, forget the moon fantasy (I could only find a story about European space going back to 09), I just wish he had put a bit more thought into the Thames Hub plan, rather than just doing a C+P job like he has.
He would soon no doubt have reached the same conclusion the majority of contributors here have made, namely that FBI is a non-starter. Perhaps that is why he only bothered sending an intern to paste in a few sketches from his HKG project.
Last edited by jabird; 2nd Feb 2013 at 01:37. Reason: There and their - there there!
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jabird
YES THEY SHOULD!!!! "Form follows function"
I recall in the 1990s a new theatre opening somewhere in the UK and it was discovered only during later stages of fitting out that some seating would have an obstructed view of the stage and were always going to have to be sold at a lower price. The architect had got the 'sight lines' wrong.
There is a UK crematorium that I know, where the staff and users are constantly irritated by the layout of the chapel. The way in which the access for mourners and pall bearers, the placing of the key items, the angle of the ceiling and the way that the eye is (or is not) drawn to the focal point of the coffin - all seem 'wrong' to those who work in many of these places.
The architect claims to have consulted the local funeral trade (Ha!). From the outside it looks fine and, superficially, the inside looks fine - but USING it? Not so fine. Naturally, he won an award for it.
Incidentally, I have similar observations of four brand new crematorium chapels in the UK and all of them are 'OK' but detail and nuance and the little things that make it easy for the staff and ministers are absent/misplaced and THEY have to work harder to make up for it. The mourners may not notice as they are only there infrequently but the staff have their every working day made more difficult by flaming architects who have not looked and listened and learnt.
For a new airport, I would start with ATC and work steadily through until I got to the car park attendant to find out what they need to make their job better. Because if they enjoy working there - the pax will enjoy travelling there - which will make the place more profitable. But no one wants to invest in REAL consultation. I worked in IT for 27 years and found that consultation was steadily downgraded and manipulated.
There is a simple maxim: Ask the person at the coal face what it is like - then go and visit them AT the coal face. If you are prepared to watch and listen - you will learn all you need to know and can win awards for being so clever. The 'clever' part is talking to people who are doing the job every day. Then add the whirls and twirls of the fancy roof.
Oh and the other thing, make sure you have a client who is prepared to install the VERY best of everything. Make sure that baggage handling is RFID and all the other things that the carriers don't want. Why? Because if you spend the money in the right way - you get a better product.
Lastly, don't open early. Go and ask T5 and they will tell you the mistakes made there. Simples! But ... all that costs money and whilst everyone will promise all those things on Day One, they will be steadily cut away as the building costs overrun and the timescale slides.
Sorry to be a grouch but I've lived in the real world for too long. Building projects where the IT people are told, "The building will ready four weeks late but the opening date has not moved."
End of rant.
Architects don't barge into the cockpit telling the pilot how to fly the plane, so should ATC and pilots tell architects and planners how to plan airports? Well given our track record, maybe they should!
I recall in the 1990s a new theatre opening somewhere in the UK and it was discovered only during later stages of fitting out that some seating would have an obstructed view of the stage and were always going to have to be sold at a lower price. The architect had got the 'sight lines' wrong.
There is a UK crematorium that I know, where the staff and users are constantly irritated by the layout of the chapel. The way in which the access for mourners and pall bearers, the placing of the key items, the angle of the ceiling and the way that the eye is (or is not) drawn to the focal point of the coffin - all seem 'wrong' to those who work in many of these places.
The architect claims to have consulted the local funeral trade (Ha!). From the outside it looks fine and, superficially, the inside looks fine - but USING it? Not so fine. Naturally, he won an award for it.
Incidentally, I have similar observations of four brand new crematorium chapels in the UK and all of them are 'OK' but detail and nuance and the little things that make it easy for the staff and ministers are absent/misplaced and THEY have to work harder to make up for it. The mourners may not notice as they are only there infrequently but the staff have their every working day made more difficult by flaming architects who have not looked and listened and learnt.
For a new airport, I would start with ATC and work steadily through until I got to the car park attendant to find out what they need to make their job better. Because if they enjoy working there - the pax will enjoy travelling there - which will make the place more profitable. But no one wants to invest in REAL consultation. I worked in IT for 27 years and found that consultation was steadily downgraded and manipulated.
There is a simple maxim: Ask the person at the coal face what it is like - then go and visit them AT the coal face. If you are prepared to watch and listen - you will learn all you need to know and can win awards for being so clever. The 'clever' part is talking to people who are doing the job every day. Then add the whirls and twirls of the fancy roof.
Oh and the other thing, make sure you have a client who is prepared to install the VERY best of everything. Make sure that baggage handling is RFID and all the other things that the carriers don't want. Why? Because if you spend the money in the right way - you get a better product.
Lastly, don't open early. Go and ask T5 and they will tell you the mistakes made there. Simples! But ... all that costs money and whilst everyone will promise all those things on Day One, they will be steadily cut away as the building costs overrun and the timescale slides.
Sorry to be a grouch but I've lived in the real world for too long. Building projects where the IT people are told, "The building will ready four weeks late but the opening date has not moved."
End of rant.
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Skippy
I didn't mean just at LHR, I meant as I said "conflicts with all the other airports".
LGW, LCY STN...and now we have Southend also on the scene !
Plus all the SIDs etc all criss cross overhead because we now have 5 major airports all vying for a slice of the action.....utter utter madness !
I agree with Zooker, paxboy
For a new airport, I would start with ATC and work steadily through until I got to the car park attendant
All these MPS are making assumptions but nobody has said hang on
you can only get so much traffic movements into the London TMA without restrictions kicking in.....
LCY are expanding, MAG will certainly want more frequency at STN, LGW is set to grow as early as this year, re Norwegian.
surely the airspace is not infinite ?
Maybe it is!
I didn't mean just at LHR, I meant as I said "conflicts with all the other airports".
LGW, LCY STN...and now we have Southend also on the scene !
Plus all the SIDs etc all criss cross overhead because we now have 5 major airports all vying for a slice of the action.....utter utter madness !
I agree with Zooker, paxboy
For a new airport, I would start with ATC and work steadily through until I got to the car park attendant
All these MPS are making assumptions but nobody has said hang on
you can only get so much traffic movements into the London TMA without restrictions kicking in.....
LCY are expanding, MAG will certainly want more frequency at STN, LGW is set to grow as early as this year, re Norwegian.
surely the airspace is not infinite ?
Maybe it is!
Last edited by Bagso; 2nd Feb 2013 at 15:08.
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any change is a no-no
Last edited by PAXboy; 3rd Feb 2013 at 09:29.
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What do you mean any change is a no no? BAA got permission fron Hoon To build runway three, yet forgot to check if they had enough airspace? Really? When people spend THAT much money, they have to have a good case.
They were planning on moving the holds as well as remodelling the airspace. It is not the case that this has not been trialled, modelled and tested.
They were planning on moving the holds as well as remodelling the airspace. It is not the case that this has not been trialled, modelled and tested.
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Paxboy - yes, excellent post, points very well made.
Totally agree about consultations being a sham. Looks at HS2 - "do you want this exact route that we've planned to the very last detail? Oh, you have another suggestions? What did you say your name was again sir? Oh, not Mr Osborne? Well you are a nimby then, good bye2.
As for sightlines, I can trump that with an apartment block (might have been under iron curtain, could just as easily be London) built 20 storeys high, but no lifts. I suppose that's the obesity epidemic cured!
However, to give context - architecture and planning, just like medicine, are subject to a rigorous checking process. Your actual chances of kicking the bucket due to an architect's error are extremely low. More chance of being hit by a paint bucket from above!
Totally agree about consultations being a sham. Looks at HS2 - "do you want this exact route that we've planned to the very last detail? Oh, you have another suggestions? What did you say your name was again sir? Oh, not Mr Osborne? Well you are a nimby then, good bye2.
As for sightlines, I can trump that with an apartment block (might have been under iron curtain, could just as easily be London) built 20 storeys high, but no lifts. I suppose that's the obesity epidemic cured!
However, to give context - architecture and planning, just like medicine, are subject to a rigorous checking process. Your actual chances of kicking the bucket due to an architect's error are extremely low. More chance of being hit by a paint bucket from above!
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Quote: "Totally agree about consultations being a sham. Looks at HS2 - "do you want this exact route that we've planned to the very last detail? Oh, you have another suggestions? What did you say your name was again sir? Oh, not Mr Osborne? Well you are a nimby then, good bye2."
Well said, jabird, you've told it exactly as it is!
Well said, jabird, you've told it exactly as it is!
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One very 'modern' manager at a company asked my advice as they were planning some changes to the building. Since I worked for them regularly, I agreed.
I prepared data and photographs from my (then) 18 years experience, wrote out notes and points for him and the engineers/architects. I gave up two hours of an afternoon to visit and go through all my experience with them. I am self employed but I did this as gesture of good will towards this company - not the man whom I distrusted.
I was not surprised when he ignored everything I had suggested. Later, he won an award for 'investing in people'. Fantastic!
I prepared data and photographs from my (then) 18 years experience, wrote out notes and points for him and the engineers/architects. I gave up two hours of an afternoon to visit and go through all my experience with them. I am self employed but I did this as gesture of good will towards this company - not the man whom I distrusted.
I was not surprised when he ignored everything I had suggested. Later, he won an award for 'investing in people'. Fantastic!