AA in trouble?
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Its not argued that way is it? It goes without saying that the pilot adds value but what is very clear is that industry wide the business operates on wafer thin margins and has employees who time and time again come out to protest about pay and conditions.
It seems that as a group they feel that their pay is only going to go one way, up, regardless of the prevailing economic conditions.
Even if you take a selfish view and suggest pilots only out to maximise their pay – which is a fair argument. How the heck can someone earning $100K, $200k, $250K throw their toys out and stand behind a union that threatens strike action and in the process materially damages the company they work for?
Its insulting to suggest that those claiming pilots are not behind some of the trouble with airlines as I could dig out 100’s of example. This from just last week in Europe:- Sept. 30 (Bloomberg) -- Five unions representing pilots and crew at International Consolidated Airlines Group SA’s Iberia may call a strike if the airline creates a lower-cost unit for short- and medium-haul flights, Cinco Dias reported, citing the unions.
Then reflect on the fact that whilst doing such noble and skilled work this is the current pay scale in the RAF:-
Pilot Officer
£24,130
Flying Officer
£29,000 – £32,060
Flight Lieutenant
£37,170 – £44,205
Squadron Leader
£48,824 – £56,075
It seems that as a group they feel that their pay is only going to go one way, up, regardless of the prevailing economic conditions.
Even if you take a selfish view and suggest pilots only out to maximise their pay – which is a fair argument. How the heck can someone earning $100K, $200k, $250K throw their toys out and stand behind a union that threatens strike action and in the process materially damages the company they work for?
Its insulting to suggest that those claiming pilots are not behind some of the trouble with airlines as I could dig out 100’s of example. This from just last week in Europe:- Sept. 30 (Bloomberg) -- Five unions representing pilots and crew at International Consolidated Airlines Group SA’s Iberia may call a strike if the airline creates a lower-cost unit for short- and medium-haul flights, Cinco Dias reported, citing the unions.
Then reflect on the fact that whilst doing such noble and skilled work this is the current pay scale in the RAF:-
Pilot Officer
£24,130
Flying Officer
£29,000 – £32,060
Flight Lieutenant
£37,170 – £44,205
Squadron Leader
£48,824 – £56,075
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Someone else hit the nail on the head - the tickets are too cheap and the cost base is too high.
The customer end of the business involves filling planes with passengers paying $50 - 500 each for their ticket.
When you have a cost base like Ryanair or EasyJet, then you just about make money. With a cost base like AA, you lose money hand over fist.
You're spending more than you're taking. It's not complex.
The customer end of the business involves filling planes with passengers paying $50 - 500 each for their ticket.
When you have a cost base like Ryanair or EasyJet, then you just about make money. With a cost base like AA, you lose money hand over fist.
You're spending more than you're taking. It's not complex.
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poc, I don't think air marshall (whatever his name) is asking his staff to take pay cuts while taking a multi-million $ bonus...even though every major purchases under his watch went sour. Airline employees are just fed-up of supporting the bonus of their failed leadership.
SkyGod
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Pilot cost at SWA is 9%, AA is 6%..
AA pilots took a big cut in pay and benefits to "save" the company from bankruptcy in 2003 to the tune of over 1 billion dollars.
Then managment started doling out bonuses to themselves, hundreds of millions of dollars, no holding back there.
The pilots are pissed off and want their money back, rightfully so.
AA pilots took a big cut in pay and benefits to "save" the company from bankruptcy in 2003 to the tune of over 1 billion dollars.
Then managment started doling out bonuses to themselves, hundreds of millions of dollars, no holding back there.
The pilots are pissed off and want their money back, rightfully so.
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You know what is great about USA is that you are free - and that means these poor pilots were free to not be pilots or free to work at another airline.
You are absolutely correct that pilots in the USA (and I would think the UK) are free not to be pilots. Most of us in the profession have a love for flying and that's why we enter the profession in the first place. Hopefully you are employed in a profession you love. Many people that aren't pilots love flying as well but didn't have the ability to fly or couldn't pass the physical standards required.
Pilots really aren't "free" to work at any airline they choose. Airlines select the pilots they want and can furlough them at will. After 9/11 numerous pilots found themselves out of a job. Airline hiring is greatly a matter of timing and that's beyond the control of most would be pilots. Other factors in getting hired are letters of recommendation, background checks, company physicals, company testing (mental and/or psychological), licenses, a first class medical certificate, type ratings, requisite hours and experience in turbine powered aircraft, pilot in command time, passing the interview, a simulator check, and a probationary period. It's really not as easy as you try to insinuate. But, not being an airline pilot, you wouldn't really know. Once established in a company as an airline pilot, one must maintain his/her medical qualifications, pass periodic written tests, company line checks, FAA line checks (in the USA), and at least yearly simulator checks. If a pilot opts to attempt changing companies, the process starts over again. Due to the seniority system, pilots are generally "married" to their companies. If you don't already know, seniority determines upgrade, equipment type, pay, vacations, days worked, days off, basing, and being on reserve. Though the seniority system has it's draw backs, show me a fairer system.
Answer this - when flying New York to LA what is the average pilot doing?
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So if costs are higher than revenues - you think the costs are too high?
What I do know is that air travel has never been (in real terms, accounting for inflation) cheaper or so affordable to such a large proportion of the world's population. This suggests that if the business is to remain profitable then costs should be falling in a similarly dramatic fashion. They aren't, and this is why many airlines find themselves in a pickle.
Ticket prices probably need to rise. But the industry is so competitive that no-one dares break ranks to do it for fear of losing market share. So they just keep chipping away at the cost base (and there is a fair bit to do - by comparison to other industries airlines are run horribly inefficiently) but it won't be enough. You could end up with the leanest structure possible, but with the price of oil and current ticket prices - it won't be enough. Not in the long term.
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@mullinax -
What kind of answer is that?
All you do is give a list of the basic requirements in order to do the job – and I already said it’s fair to be compensated for.
But there isn’t an industry more blighted by its disruptive work force. In the end if the skill set was in such demand then the market would re-adjust and you’d not be needing to fight for the pay – you’d get it anyway. That’s how free markets work, a principle at the heart of the USA?
Why talk about wanting to be an airline pilot or otherwise? Whats that got to do with anything? I fly for fun now having been a pilot previously.
I didn’t want to fly airlines because that type of flying doesn’t interest me.
All that aside it doesn’t stop me from having a view. And nothing you’ve said seems to counter the issues at many of todays airlines. Worse than that the attitude stinks. Its very selfish and frankly ridiculous for anyone – pilot or otherwise – who gets paid $250K per year however earned to potentially bankrupt a business in protest. The easy answer is to leave.
As for the Hudson. I know many people who have done much more in an aircraft and sacrificed much more for much less – as I suspect many others here have.
What kind of answer is that?
All you do is give a list of the basic requirements in order to do the job – and I already said it’s fair to be compensated for.
But there isn’t an industry more blighted by its disruptive work force. In the end if the skill set was in such demand then the market would re-adjust and you’d not be needing to fight for the pay – you’d get it anyway. That’s how free markets work, a principle at the heart of the USA?
Why talk about wanting to be an airline pilot or otherwise? Whats that got to do with anything? I fly for fun now having been a pilot previously.
I didn’t want to fly airlines because that type of flying doesn’t interest me.
All that aside it doesn’t stop me from having a view. And nothing you’ve said seems to counter the issues at many of todays airlines. Worse than that the attitude stinks. Its very selfish and frankly ridiculous for anyone – pilot or otherwise – who gets paid $250K per year however earned to potentially bankrupt a business in protest. The easy answer is to leave.
As for the Hudson. I know many people who have done much more in an aircraft and sacrificed much more for much less – as I suspect many others here have.
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Pilot salaries in airlines like AA are by far not the only spenditures on flight crew. Without going into details if AA and Ryanair pilots will be paid the same, it will still cost AA 50%+ more.
Another thing is that most of the pilots never had any other job (non-flying) which pays $200k+ a year which is not their fault for sure but it restricts their ability to judge about fairness of their remuneration. Most of the pilots can't imagine what a loads of cr@p people making $200k+ on the ground in most industries are taking on a daily baisis. 110 nights in hotel is not too much comparing to that, really.
Another thing is that most of the pilots never had any other job (non-flying) which pays $200k+ a year which is not their fault for sure but it restricts their ability to judge about fairness of their remuneration. Most of the pilots can't imagine what a loads of cr@p people making $200k+ on the ground in most industries are taking on a daily baisis. 110 nights in hotel is not too much comparing to that, really.
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Poor AA pilots and execs !
If you go to Utube and select "Unemployed Airline Pilot" you'll
get an idea of what most of us are thinking!
Unionism is good in reasonable measure, but when execs are receiving
unreasonable bonusses and parachutes, obviously something has to give !
Not to mention that they are causing unions to try to grab more from a bag that's getting empty ! Old fashioned management has flown the coup and
is replaced by a greedy bunch of "memememe first" types. Pitty !
get an idea of what most of us are thinking!
Unionism is good in reasonable measure, but when execs are receiving
unreasonable bonusses and parachutes, obviously something has to give !
Not to mention that they are causing unions to try to grab more from a bag that's getting empty ! Old fashioned management has flown the coup and
is replaced by a greedy bunch of "memememe first" types. Pitty !
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labour and management
POC
If the salaries of pilots of airlines such as southwest and AA, Delta, etc are reasonably similar (after all the job they do is exactly the same) and the profits are absolutely different (some have great pforits, others great losses) then who what does that mean? who is to blame?
Management, of course! Pilots just do their job, fly from A to B. Southwest does not succeed because their pilots are better.
Workers claim better conditions
Employers complain about labour costs
That's life. You will hear that for ever, no matter how much pilots agree to lower their salaries.
Why does that bother you so much? The fact that in the news you always see those arguments over and over doesn't mean they are true.
You know... not all the things you read on the press or hear on the TV are true. Even if they repeat them a lot.
If the salaries of pilots of airlines such as southwest and AA, Delta, etc are reasonably similar (after all the job they do is exactly the same) and the profits are absolutely different (some have great pforits, others great losses) then who what does that mean? who is to blame?
Management, of course! Pilots just do their job, fly from A to B. Southwest does not succeed because their pilots are better.
Workers claim better conditions
Employers complain about labour costs
That's life. You will hear that for ever, no matter how much pilots agree to lower their salaries.
Why does that bother you so much? The fact that in the news you always see those arguments over and over doesn't mean they are true.
You know... not all the things you read on the press or hear on the TV are true. Even if they repeat them a lot.
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What kind of answer is that?
May you continue to fly your armchair in the safety of your living room and continue to critique those who actually fly airliners in the real world. Hopefully the biggest hazard you will face will continue to be your own pipe smoke.
Best wishes.
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I was a SAR pilot, 4500 hours of it, in all weathers, any time of day, often finding and picking up idiots who should have known better. Twice taken to court for 'damages' when I wouldn't pick up surf boards and often asked by the 'victim' if they could be dropped off at the car park next to their car if I wouldn't mind.
I risked my life and my crew for a fairly rubbish wage using a licence that cost far more to obtain than a fixed wing licence.
Now I fly for an airline.
What's different? The skill set required for my previous 'life' was completely different to that which I require now. Do I feel that my current colleagues are in any way less competent than those I flew with before? Absoloutely not.
I completely fail to comprehend what you are trying to prove with this point? What the crew (I include the FO in this as he was also an ex-mil pilot who contributed alot to the incident) achieved was exemplerary. A massive bird strike just after take off followed by a double engine failure and a water landing in a big jet with large high bypass engines. Truely excellent. Sacrificed more for less? Not really.
Look at airline pilots pay, ask most people, and ask what pilots earned in the 1950's? Probably get an answer of £100,000 per annum.
Ask again for the 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's and the 2000's and you will probably get the same answer £100,000. Pilots wages have not moved with inflation for decades.
Many will say, 'ah but the aircraft are all automatic now!', true, there are many automated and crossed over systems to 'assist' in your task. However the downside of this is that the complexity involved when those systems start to fail is immense. Many times the safest option is to disengage ALL systems and revert the beast to a stick and rudder aeroplane. This sort of day, with 350 people behind you, is when pilots earn their pay.
I'm sure you pay insurance on your motor vehicle? I'm sure that you've moaned about it but had to pay it as it is a legal requirement? I'm also sure that you never, ever want to have to 'use' your insurance because of the consequences it has in cost, injury and legalities. But you feel safer knowing you have it there in the background. Piloting is, in many ways, the same. If you don't know what I mean try flying with some of the smaller 'local' outfits in Africa. It can be an eye opener to anyone who has only flown in the US or Europe.
Is it fair for the pilots to want to reclaim losses when gross mismanagement has led the entire workforce up the garden path? Probably. At least they should attempt to protect themselves from the losses and end up paying their pensions into the hands of the liquidators.
I risked my life and my crew for a fairly rubbish wage using a licence that cost far more to obtain than a fixed wing licence.
Now I fly for an airline.
What's different? The skill set required for my previous 'life' was completely different to that which I require now. Do I feel that my current colleagues are in any way less competent than those I flew with before? Absoloutely not.
As for the Hudson. I know many people who have done much more in an aircraft and sacrificed much more for much less – as I suspect many others here have.
Look at airline pilots pay, ask most people, and ask what pilots earned in the 1950's? Probably get an answer of £100,000 per annum.
Ask again for the 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's and the 2000's and you will probably get the same answer £100,000. Pilots wages have not moved with inflation for decades.
Many will say, 'ah but the aircraft are all automatic now!', true, there are many automated and crossed over systems to 'assist' in your task. However the downside of this is that the complexity involved when those systems start to fail is immense. Many times the safest option is to disengage ALL systems and revert the beast to a stick and rudder aeroplane. This sort of day, with 350 people behind you, is when pilots earn their pay.
I'm sure you pay insurance on your motor vehicle? I'm sure that you've moaned about it but had to pay it as it is a legal requirement? I'm also sure that you never, ever want to have to 'use' your insurance because of the consequences it has in cost, injury and legalities. But you feel safer knowing you have it there in the background. Piloting is, in many ways, the same. If you don't know what I mean try flying with some of the smaller 'local' outfits in Africa. It can be an eye opener to anyone who has only flown in the US or Europe.
Is it fair for the pilots to want to reclaim losses when gross mismanagement has led the entire workforce up the garden path? Probably. At least they should attempt to protect themselves from the losses and end up paying their pensions into the hands of the liquidators.
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Piece Of Cake
"Pilot Officer
£24,130
Flying Officer
£29,000 – £32,060
Flight Lieutenant
£37,170 – £44,205
Squadron Leader
£48,824 – £56,075"
Whilst yes I think we are underpaid and in all aspects superior to civvy pilots,
, I think you need to do a lot more research if you think that pay scale is correct for military pilots.
Look at the term "flying pay" and "FRI" on search.
"Pilot Officer
£24,130
Flying Officer
£29,000 – £32,060
Flight Lieutenant
£37,170 – £44,205
Squadron Leader
£48,824 – £56,075"
Whilst yes I think we are underpaid and in all aspects superior to civvy pilots,
, I think you need to do a lot more research if you think that pay scale is correct for military pilots.Look at the term "flying pay" and "FRI" on search.
Do you really expect airline management to come forward and take the blame on themselves .
" I am sorry guys we screwed up " - Airline Management
You will see that statement the day pigs fly
" I am sorry guys we screwed up " - Airline Management
You will see that statement the day pigs fly
@Bobbsy the perceptive SLF: well said!
For the jakes cake posting in this thread ...
Then reflect on the fact that whilst doing such noble and skilled work this is the current pay scale in the RAF:-
Pilot Officer £24,130
Flying Officer £29,000 – £32,060
Flight Lieutenant £37,170 – £44,205
Squadron Leader £48,824 – £56,075
Pilot Officer £24,130
Flying Officer £29,000 – £32,060
Flight Lieutenant £37,170 – £44,205
Squadron Leader £48,824 – £56,075
Don't operate in a for profit environment.
Why not just compare dog food and automobile tires, while you are at it? Makes as much sense.
Pilot cost at SWA is 9%, AA is 6%..
AA pilots took a big cut in pay and benefits to "save" the company from bankruptcy in 2003 to the tune of over 1 billion dollars.
Then managment started doling out bonuses to themselves, hundreds of millions of dollars, no holding back there.
The pilots are pissed off and want their money back, rightfully so.
AA pilots took a big cut in pay and benefits to "save" the company from bankruptcy in 2003 to the tune of over 1 billion dollars.
Then managment started doling out bonuses to themselves, hundreds of millions of dollars, no holding back there.
The pilots are pissed off and want their money back, rightfully so.
A comment on the bail out safety provisions for suits.
The Golden Parachute schemes reflect crafty work contract writing in most cases. Terms and Endearment, if you will.
Get good at that, it's a skill. If you master it, you'll see your compensation increase. (See also how smart contractors structure contracts, and sub contracts, when taking on large projects).