AA in trouble?

[Northbeach]

Look mom "no hands"

Answer this - when flying New York to LA what is the average pilot doing?

When flying New York to LA the average pilot is bearing the legal responsibility for their passengers safety at better than 8 miles a minute and some thirty plus thousand feet up in the atmosphere in a hostile and threat filled environment. They are monitoring numerous systems in a complex machine that has a finite amount of fuel that is rapidly disappearing.

Long before the fuel tanks run dry, there are no gas/service stations nor can one call 911 {emergency/aid phone number} and have the police, ambulance or fire department personally physically appear, our “average pilots” had better deal with any in-flight contingency and arrive safely regardless of what they encounter during their several thousand mile journey. This isn’t just another day in the office; Groundhog Day (Bill Murray movie) nor is the safe outcome of the flight guaranteed. Our “average pilot” must ensure the safe completion of the flight-and it isn’t going to happen without determined and intelligent effort. As I mark the transitory hours, continents (NY to LA) and vast oceans passing by I see a lot of determined and intelligent effort being exerted on my flight deck.

On our flight to LA our “average pilots” are tasked with protecting their passengers regardless of the changing weather (rapidly moving cold fronts, windshear, crosswinds on ice covered runways (NY not LA), clear air turbulence and embedded thunderstorms or super cells {Delta 191 @ DFW, AA in Little Rock}), security and traffic demands of an intricate national aviation system. Few people shoulder the responsibility for the safety of 75-500+ people every time they go to work; do you?

While our “average pilots” are so occupied, everything they say is being recorded by the cockpit voice recorder; the jet itself is monitoring, recording and relaying hundreds of parameters to the company that then audits for operational compliance. Their every transmission is also monitored and recorded by the regulatory authorities. The actual flight path is being watched closely and recorded. Our average pilot is conducting their flight in accordance with a vast amount of government and company regulations while being highly scrutinized. That is what is happening on my flight deck when I fly from New York to LA.

There is a little more to it than: LNAV, VNAV & USA Today. [Engage the autopilot and read the newspaper.]

Some people MAKE things happen.
Some people watch things happen.
Other people wonder what happened.

............. worth keeping in mind all the time while here on PPRuNe..........

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.

*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".

[dwshimoda]

Well put...

Northbeach: Bravo!

Pieceofcake: you showed your colours with seniority.

[alouette3]

Northbeach,

Bravo ,indeed!
Piece of cake: I have yet to see a passenger make it from point A to point B because a ticket agent or a baggage handler or a mechanic carried him. Like it or not the revenue generators for any airline are sitting at the pointy end. And while they maybe "average" they are the reason the shiny tube like things get airborne, remain airborne and land, safely, thousands of times a day everyday .
I think you should retire honorably from this skirmish or----at least ---change your name to "piece of work".

[brakedwell]

Crumbs!

[kimli]

So true

Northbeach

One of the nicest posts I have read on Pprune for many years.

[pieceofcake]

So a great deal of value add then? All of which makes it a wonder why so many airlines going bust and why time and time again pilots are cited as one of / major cause of dispute.

The problem you have with the keeping everything going, saving everyone from impending doom is that subjectively if asked to put a value on that you all say its priceless but given we all know pilots are paid a salary tell me what should that be?

Then once you've put a value on it - lets say $100K - what happens when someone puts their hand up and says I'll do for $95K.. no Ł80K... no Ł50K...

Does a union get involved and protect its members? Does it create an artificial floor? Then what happens when the place goes bust?

Its all very well being a wise guy and saying "Oh the guy checking the bags what does he do to save an aircraft at 30000ft" but its also true that without that guy he's got nothing to fly and on the basis every major US airline has gone bust in the last decade - one thing that is for certain pilots are either over valuing their role or aren't representing themselves very well. Or do you have another reason?

[pieceofcake]

remember this from this year:- Members of the Irish Airline's Pilots' Association based in Dublin and Cork voted to begin the industrial action from June 7, Aer Lingus said in a statement.

or this at BA:-

BA Pilot Dispute Over OpenSkies Airline
The dispute centres on the fact that BA is planning to employ newly-hired pilots to staff its new subsidary airline OpenSkies, rather than use the existing pool of BA pilots, and that - according to Balpa - OpenSkies pilots would be offered "inferior terms" than mainline BA staff.

or this:- The dispute between Ryanair pilots and management over training on a new fleet of aircraft remains unresolved on Friday evening after a deadline for acceptance by pilots passed without agreement.

O 26 July Air France pilot strike is still on for next month, dates below.

Is there a common theme?

[xray one]

So if AA go into chapter 11 (with all the benefits this entails), what happens with any tie ups i.e. with BA.

Theoretically BA could send pax to AA with their alliance, AA could then offer cheaper prices as they don't need to honour creditors and operate under the normal restraints of commercial 'prudence'.

[Northbeach]

I would much rather make a friend and offer to educate than “win an argument”.

All of which makes it a wonder why so many airlines going bust and why time and time again pilots are cited as one of / major cause of dispute.

Often pilots are our own worst enemy in the way we interact with co-workers and the public.

Pilots will get paid what we negotiate and can enforce, not what we think we should be paid or would like to be paid. You are right the world does not work that way. Nor does the public owe us anything.

The Colgan Air Dash 8 crash in Buffalo New York highlighted the pay issue for the crew. The First Officer was living with her parents and commuting to New York to fly; sleeping at the crew room because she could not afford to live in New York on her wages.

I made $22,000 my first year (family of 5-BEFORE taxes-not take home) at the major airline I am flying for. After nearly 16 years with my current employer I made between $150,000-200,000 last year (> 900 hours of actual flight time, > 110 nights in a hotel room and many more hours than 900 "on duty), so what; those are not extravagant wages in exchange for what I do between New York and Los Angeles!

I hope you make as much or more-does not bother me in the least, not a shread of envy! The more money you make the more likely you will fly with me and I can keep doing the job I enjoy (most of the time).

Whittling down the pilots wages may be emotionally satisfying and an effective tactic in a labor (labour) dispute. But in case after case it does not lead to solving the woes of the industry. Ask the legions of out of work pilots (and every other work group) or those retired having had their retirements looted who spent their working lives and gave up, or had taken away, their pay & benefits for airlines that won that battle but failed to stay in operation.

Thank you for your time!

[pieceofcake]

So why do you think every US carrier ex-amr filed chapter11 in last decade? Why pilots being headlined as a major factor in amr woes today?
Regards your point on pay - your point is valid, $200k doesn't seem put of whack for the responsibility (but it's probably more than 90% of the population and more than many surgeons) but I don't think that needs either a cap nor protecting. The Market decides surely?? I guess what is difficult to understand is why time and again it's another airline issue with staff at the centre. If it's that bad why do it?

With respect sir, envy isnt a factor in my post. Im a pilot and punter that just gets sick and tired of the same headline - oh and I guess so is the guy who owns the equity (the people who along with those holding AMR debt finance the show) - maybe AMR stock is in the pension scheme of lots of regular and not so regular people?

[grounded27]

Hell, they just made a record breaking aircraft purchase. They have done a relitively great job of keeping jobs and work in house over the last decade. Seems they are less concerned about the street and more about their long term sucess as a unified company. Sure they took a kick in the shorts with other airlines consolidating to become larger than they are but will their ideals be sucessfull in the long run?

[ready eddy]

'I have yet to see a passenger make it from point A to point B because a ticket agent or a baggage handler or a mechanic carried him. Like it or not the revenue generators for any airline are sitting at the pointy end. And while they maybe "average" they are the reason the shiny tube like things get airborne, remain airborne and land, safely, thousands of times a day everyday .'

I Beg to disagree with this point, pilots are not the 'sole' revenue generators for an airline as the above post alludes to. If mechanics/engineers do not provide safe serviceable aircraft for pilots to fly, then there is no revenue generated. If cleaners don't clean the aircraft, pax will not fly with the airline -no revenue generated. If baggage handlers do not load bags, again pax will not fly with said airline - no revenue generated. I could go on and on with examples here, but the point I am trying to make is that pilots are the final piece of the puzzle that enables pax to fly from A to B, but all the pieces are required to complete the puzzle. An airline cannot exist/operate/generate revenue unless all of the individual departments do their job!

[poorjohn]

Out of curiousity what do senior captains earn at Southwest? That gang seems genuinely happy with their situation, and the company is profitable. Are they doing it by having beaten up the employees "until morale improves" or by having management that actually earns their pay. Or just lucky?

[stepwilk]

Out of curiousity what do senior captains earn at Southwest? That gang seems genuinely happy with their situation, and the company is profitable.

Funny thing, I just flew SWA as a passenger for the first time in my life, as did my wife on a separate day and flight(s). EWR-DEN-SFO and return. We were both stunned. This is an airline that does so many things right that none of the other lines have figured out yet, and they seemingly have fun doing it. Best airline I've ever flown, even though we had to lay over in DEN it was worth it.

Henceforth, I will fly SWA every chance I get.

As I understand it, far from having ever sought bankruptcy protection, they have been profitable every year they've been in existence, and I believe they've only had one single unprofitable quarter. I also understand their flight-deck and cabin crews are well-paid, at least by industry standards.

[grounded27]

SWA

I also understand their flight-deck and cabin crews are well-paid

So are the maintenance staff. Their pay is in the top 3 only competative with america's 2 most profitable (little more ression proof) airlines that run freight. Their business model is great, hope they can keep it up!

Back on AA, they still seem to have a good long term outlook, just made a large investment to compete domestically with more efficient aircraft, screw the stock price. If in trouble on the short, I believe they will do well in the long term as they mothball domestic aircraft that burn more fuel than the fleet they want.

[Northbeach]

poorjohn & others

Google is your friend & the world is at your fingertips.

Out of curiousity what do senior captains earn at Southwest?

Airline Pilot Pay Rates

[flyallnite]

Southwest is the most completely unionized airline in the world. There isn't a workgroup on the property without union representation. Their pilots are among the most highly compensated in the world. According to a brochure distributed by their pilots, an AVERAGE 737 captain earns $260,000 per year in pay alone, with no overtime included in that figure. A generous retirement plan, paid vacation, and health benefits that are the envy of the industry.

For those who seek to find what ails AA, the truth is found not in the usual, tired old anti-union and anti-pilot platitudes.

AA has major financial problems. Employee pay is not currently one of them. Underfunded pensions, huge debt obligations, exorbitant lease agreements and a corporate tax structure that amounts to extortion to name a few. For those who understand, there is no need to say anything more. For those who don't, I suggest a more in depth examination of the current state of airline economics.

[Popgun]

Adapt or Perish...

There is no doubt that legacy carriers the world over have to adapt to survive. Time will tell which of those are able, and which ones go the way of the dinosaurs.

Excellent post North beach. One of the most articulate I've read in a long while.

[cyrilroy21]

So why do you think every US carrier ex-amr filed chapter11 in last decade? Why pilots being headlined as a major factor in amr woes today

I guess what is difficult to understand is why time and again it's another airline issue with staff at the centre

The staff and unions are always used as a scapegoat to put the blame on

Do you really expect airline management to come forward and take the blame on themselves .
" I am sorry guys we screwed up " - Airline Management
You will see that statement the day pigs fly

SWA is the perfect example of how management and unions get along together and which returns profits for the company .
SWA does not blame its employees . Infact it thanks them everyday
So does Fedex

Typical airline management always use labor costs as an excuse for their own inability to manage . They then negotiate lower wage costs while at the same time give themselves bonuses and golden parachutes

Donald J. Carty comes to mind.........

[Bobbsy]

Answer this - when flying New York to LA what is the average pilot doing?

I'm only a member of the SLF brigade but I know darn well you can ask the same question about ANY job.

For example, how about "What is the average airline CEO doing all day?".

The answer is most likely "sitting in an office drinking coffee, reading emails and telling underlings to do reports". A very small proportion of his time is spent actually making critical business decisions.

However, the big difference is that when the CEO gets it wrong, he can file for bankruptcy, blame his failures on the unions and probably walk away with his contractual "golden parachute". When a pilot gets it wrong, there's a potential for the people he has taken responsibility for dying. Even if it doesn't go that far, you only need read this forum to see that one bad decision out of millions of good ones can abruptly end a pilot's career--with no such golden parachute.

In any case, arguing that other staff members generate revenue but pilots are just a cost is simply wrong. As SLF, when I buy an airline ticket it's to get me from point A to point B. As such, the pilots, the rest of the operational staff, the airplane itself and the fuel are far more involved in generating the revenue from my ticket than anybody at head office. The reality is that the whole company is involved in generating revenue...and arguing that pilots are a pure cost is simply foolish.

....my take as SLF anyhow.